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Hobbits' Brains Shrank Due To Remote Home

Hugh Pickens writes "The 'hobbits,' dubbed homo floresiensis, caused a worldwide sensation when they were discovered five years ago, when some scientists claimed that the 18,000-year-old human-like fossils found on the Indonesian island of Flores represented an entirely new species. Now researchers at the Natural History Museum in London believe that the creatures' small brains could have developed to reduce the creatures' energy needs, crucial for surviving in an isolated area with limited resources. 'It could be that H. floresiensis' skull is that of a Homo erectus that has become dwarfed from living on an island, rather than being an abnormal individual or separately-evolved species, as has been suggested,' says palaeontologist Eleanor Weston. 'Looking at pygmy hippos in Madagascar, which possess exceptionally small brains for their size, suggests that the same could be true for H. floresiensis, and the result of being isolated on the island.' Although the phenomenon of dwarfism on islands is well recognized in large mammals, an accompanying reduction in brain size has never been clearly demonstrated before."

190 comments

  1. Bunk by ta+bu+shi+da+yu · · Score: 0

    I reckon that within the next decade, they're going to find out that they've made a huge mistake somewhere along the line.

    --
    XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
    1. Re:Bunk by LucidBeast · · Score: 5, Funny

      Have you watched episodes of Big Brother or Survivor? Brains shrink in close quarters. I think it's not bunk.

    2. Re:Bunk by edsousa · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Exactly.. And White House seems to cause the same effect...

    3. Re:Bunk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      Have you seen soccer moms driving SUVs? My theory is that, much like gold fish, these maternal females grow proportionally to the vehicles' cabin size.

    4. Re:Bunk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      why

    5. Re:Bunk by Nutria · · Score: 3, Informative

      Have you watched episodes of Big Brother or Survivor?

      No, I haven't, because brains shrink when watching inane "reality" shows.

      --
      "I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1
    6. Re:Bunk by ahoehn · · Score: 2, Funny

      Shit. I'm trading in the Yukon for a Smart Car.

      --
      Mod my comments down. It'll be fun.
    7. Re:Bunk by steveo777 · · Score: 1

      It's like a prehistoric reality show, then? And here I thought society had only perfected wasting time, money, resources and lives only in the last few centuries!

      Way to go subverted ancients! I salute your tyrannical, well-entertained overlords.

      --
      This sig isn't original enough, it's time to come up with something witty...
  2. To our retarded brethren by BadAnalogyGuy · · Score: 1, Troll

    If you think about it, most animals are intellectually inferior to human retards. But they seem to get by in the wild just fine.

    So assuming that there was a whole society of retarded human-like creatures living on an island in Indonesia, it wouldn't be much different than a band of monkeys or gorillas living in Africa.

    1. Re:To our retarded brethren by drmemnoch · · Score: 5, Funny

      I have found this phenomenon localized in my community. It's called Wal-Mart.

      --
      Those who can do... Those who can't get a certification from Cisco or Microsoft.
    2. Re:To our retarded brethren by dword · · Score: 0, Troll

      The world is full of retards (ATM you're modded -1 Troll). apparently it is possible to be a complete retard and even use the tubes!

    3. Re:To our retarded brethren by eln · · Score: 1

      The world is full of retards (ATM you're modded -1 Troll). apparently it is possible to be a complete retard and even use the tubes!

      Of course it is, how else do you explain the level of discourse on every Internet message board and chat site ever?

    4. Re:To our retarded brethren by Arthur+B. · · Score: 4, Funny

      No, the species living in wall mart tend to be much larger. It's the opposite phenomenon.

      --
      \u262D = \u5350
    5. Re:To our retarded brethren by Bassman59 · · Score: 3, Funny

      No, the species living in wall mart (sic)tend to be much larger. It's the opposite phenomenon.

      The species that lives in Wal-Mart has an overly-large body with a severely undersized brain. Kinda like the Brontosaurus (or whatever they call that dinosaur these days).

    6. Re:To our retarded brethren by Plunky · · Score: 1

      Of course it is, how else do you explain the level of discourse on every Internet message board and chat site ever?

      Well, duh!

    7. Re:To our retarded brethren by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      tl;dr

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    8. Re:To our retarded brethren by uniquename72 · · Score: 1
    9. Re:To our retarded brethren by Chees0rz · · Score: 1

      No kidding. I was in Borders the other day, started flipping through a giant dinosaur book with lots of pictures... I didn't recognize a single one.

      I'll admit- the only ones I can pull out of the air are tyrannosaurus, brontosaurus, brachiosaurus, stegosaurus, ankelosaurus, and triceratops, but I swear they all had look a alikes with different names.

      Just when I was beginning to get over Pluto...

    10. Re:To our retarded brethren by lenester · · Score: 1

      obWhoosh: apatosaurus.

    11. Re:To our retarded brethren by SlashWombat · · Score: 1

      Or a bunch of politicians "living in isolation" in Washington. (See, as soon as their elected, their brains magically shrink, generally in inverse proportion to their wealth!)

  3. Wrong by sakdoctor · · Score: 1, Flamebait

    Their small brains developed due to reading Rupert Murdoch's "newspapers".

  4. Alaska's pretty remote... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Does that explain Sarah Palin?

    1. Re:Alaska's pretty remote... by Tablizer · · Score: 0, Troll

      But she can see Russia from her island.

    2. Re:Alaska's pretty remote... by Chlorine+Trifluoride · · Score: 3, Funny

      Yeah, because Illinois is such a remote area...

    3. Re:Alaska's pretty remote... by Sleepy · · Score: 1

      Most people will mis-speak once or twice on any topic, myself and you included.

      For most people anyways, what separates a one-time gaffe with ignorance is the frequency of the mistake.

      You can draw a hard line on the matter and TRY to equate the two... but that's pretty incredible.

    4. Re:Alaska's pretty remote... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      W had a whole quote-a-day calendar. It seems that "57 states" and "a teleprompter are all I ever HEAR on Obama.

    5. Re:Alaska's pretty remote... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Palin stated that "You can see Russia from parts of Alaska" which is a true fact. She did not state "I can see Russia from my house" which was a quote from a comedian doing an impersonation of Gov. Palin.

      For more info please see this documentary.

    6. Re:Alaska's pretty remote... by OakDragon · · Score: 1

      Give the guy an "Informative!" (I'm fresh out.)

      But I'm disappointed that you posted as an AC. Don't want your karma burned by all the Palin-haters?

    7. Re:Alaska's pretty remote... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You betcha!

    8. Re:Alaska's pretty remote... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But I voted for the comedian instead.

    9. Re:Alaska's pretty remote... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He obviously meant 47 states because he wasn't able to visit Alaska or Hawaii if you actually look at the context.

      "I have been to (4)7 so far, and only one more to go because my staff won't let me go to Alaska or Hawaii".

    10. Re:Alaska's pretty remote... by Onymous+Coward · · Score: 1

      I love Palin. I think she's stupendously (unintentionally) funny.

      But I fucking hate misinformation, so I would have modded him up. It's like the "Al Gore says he created the Internet" misinformation meme. Can't stand it.

      People seeing the world how they want to instead of how it is. Laughing at the things too ridiculous to be real. In fact, not real. This believe-what-you-want thinking needs to be crushed before humanity can truly have hope.

      At least... that's what I believe.

    11. Re:Alaska's pretty remote... by nexttech · · Score: 1

      Actually it explains what happens to politician's brains the moment they hit Washington D.C

    12. Re:Alaska's pretty remote... by Dragonslicer · · Score: 1

      Palin stated that "You can see Russia from parts of Alaska" which is a true fact. She did not state "I can see Russia from my house"

      The joke, though, is that she believed that this fact made her qualified to handle the type of foreign relations work that's done by the federal government.

    13. Re:Alaska's pretty remote... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Does that explain Sarah Palin?

      Nah. You can see Russia from Alaska. That's what explains Sarah Palin

  5. small brains the result of by DrugCheese · · Score: 4, Funny

    over consumption of ale and pipeweed?

    --
    *DrugCheese rants*
  6. Island brain? by WillKemp · · Score: 3, Funny

    [......] small brains [......] from living on an island [.......]

    Rather like the British then?

    1. Re:Island brain? by Sleepy · · Score: 1

      Culturally and genetically, Britain is an mix of French, Dutch, Nordic, Celt... and Pastun.

      In the context of extreme genetic isolation, perhaps better examples would be the Royal Family... or the Welsh.

    2. Re:Island brain? by WillKemp · · Score: 1

      There's quite a bit of Basque blood in there too, apparently. But Pashtun? Where did that come into the picture?

    3. Re:Island brain? by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Ever been to Bradford?

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    4. Re:Island brain? by WillKemp · · Score: 1

      No, but i've been to Afghanistan.

    5. Re:Island brain? by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Was there anybody still there?

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    6. Re:Island brain? by WillKemp · · Score: 1

      Shitloads of foreign "aid" workers.

    7. Re:Island brain? by Nutria · · Score: 1

      Rather like the British then?

      Or Hawaiians or Japanese. (Oh, wait, Japanese were on the small side until the US came in after WW2.)

      Seriously, though: maybe if H. Erectus had developed fire, axes, knives and archery, and "humaniformed" the land with huts and agriculture, then they would have been able to produce enough energy to "stay large".

      Anyway, humans have only been on Britain 5,000 years, and modern Brits have a lot of Angle, Saxon, Norman and Viking, which is only 1,500 years old, none of which is long enough to shrink in size.

      --
      "I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1
    8. Re:Island brain? by WillKemp · · Score: 1

      I believe it's closer to 15,000 years than 5,000.

      And the British were quite short until relatively recently (of course everyone else in the world may have been too, for all i know).

    9. Re:Island brain? by Nutria · · Score: 1

      And the British were quite short until relatively recently (of course everyone else in the world may have been too, for all i know).

      Antebellum furniture was quite small, compared to modern furniture.

      Maybe "we" started to grow when refrigeration and wealth allowed us to eat more meat?

      --
      "I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1
    10. Re:Island brain? by WillKemp · · Score: 1

      Antibiotics in milk and growth hormones in meat may have had something to do with it, too.

      And of course, British people have grown phenomenally since the channel tunnel was built - maybe something to do with not really being an island any more?!

    11. Re:Island brain? by boombaard · · Score: 1

      actually, Gaelic peoples migrated to the north of Spain, not the other way around

    12. Re:Island brain? by WillKemp · · Score: 1

      That may or may not be true. But the Basques are not Gaelic.

      Studies of Y-chromosome genes (in this case, the R1b group) seem to show that something like 75% of British people have ancestors who came from Basque country.

    13. Re:Island brain? by skarphace · · Score: 1

      And of course, British people have grown phenomenally since the channel tunnel was built - maybe something to do with not really being an island any more?!

      [citation needed] Seriously, you can't drop something like that and not source it.

      --
      Bullish Machine Tzar
    14. Re:Island brain? by WillKemp · · Score: 1

      Any newspaper will do - they pretty much all go on about how British people are getting more obese every day.

    15. Re:Island brain? by skarphace · · Score: 1

      Any newspaper will do - they pretty much all go on about how British people are getting more obese every day.

      Ah, when you said 'grow', I wasn't thinking width.

      --
      Bullish Machine Tzar
  7. 18,000 - amazing by Tablizer · · Score: 4, Informative

    that the 18,000-year-old human-like fossils found on the Indonesian island ... "It could be that H. floresiensis' skull is that of a Homo erectus that has become dwarfed from living on an island...

    An 18,000 year old specimen of Homo Erectus would indeed be an amazing find if true. They were thought to have died out a little less than a million years ago. Thus, 18k is a huge leap. Also, being 18k old may mean that we can extract DNA from it or another like find, and learn more about Erectus, and maybe someday even recreate one ("Erectus Park"). Homo Erectus was a very successful species of proto-human (relatively speaking) and probably the first proto-human to spread deep into Europe and Asia.
       

    1. Re:18,000 - amazing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      I'm not sure that inviting the public to come see Homos in 'Erectus Park' would get you the visitors you are looking for. ..

    2. Re:18,000 - amazing by Kozz · · Score: 3, Interesting

      An 18,000 year old specimen of Homo Erectus would indeed be an amazing find if true.

      That seems like kind of a leap of interpretation. Dr. Weston's statement acknowledges that the "hobbit" is H. floresiensis, so when she says "could be that of H. erectus" (considering the 18,000year date) I think we're talking about the former being a descendant of the latter, not a sub-species.

      --
      I only post comments when someone on the internet is wrong.
    3. Re:18,000 - amazing by digitalunity · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Just out of curiosity, what broswer are you using?

      I've noticed on both Windows and Linux that Firefox 3 renders /. perfectly, but IE has a lot of overlapping text and is just all fucked up.

      I tried Opera and it renders just fine, although I can't get over what a piece of shit their UI is.

      --
      You can't legislate goodness. Let each to his own destiny, by will of his freely made choices.
    4. Re:18,000 - amazing by Randle_Revar · · Score: 3, Informative

      Why are you so surprised? They have been speculating that H. floresiensis might be a dwarfed H. erectus almost since they found it. And it was clear even in the initial description that it was very recent.

      Anyway, even if you could clone H. floresiensis, you would get, well, H. floresiensis, not H. erectus.

    5. Re:18,000 - amazing by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      Anyway, even if you could clone H. floresiensis, you would get, well, H. floresiensis, not H. erectus.

      It would still allow us to study the H. erectus "line", and thus compare to human and Neanderthals (which we are just starting to study at the DNA-level).
           

    6. Re:18,000 - amazing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...we can also make more convincing Geico commercials.

    7. Re:18,000 - amazing by bishiraver · · Score: 1

      All of these newfangled AJAXy 'enhancements' look like they were coded by a braindead codemonkey who just found jQuery.

      Explains why it's slow, incompatible, and so forth. (jQuery has many cross-browser issues, though not as many as Prototype. Because of the 'powerful' chaining style, though, it's nigh impossible to debug. jQuery and Prototype make JavaScript a write-only language - much like perl)

      Don't believe me?

      Go look at the markup and code...

    8. Re:18,000 - amazing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      so easy even a hobbit could do it!

    9. Re:18,000 - amazing by tehdaemon · · Score: 1
      It would definitely be an interesting study - but do be aware that all three of these hominids appear to be descended from H. erectus.

      T

      --
      Laws are horrible moral guides, moral guides make even worse laws.
    10. Re:18,000 - amazing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, and I don't think "Homo Park" would fair any better.

    11. Re:18,000 - amazing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, what park super would want a bunch of well dressed, mild mannered, respectful, intelligent guests? I'm sure they'd prefer some drunken rednecks on their way home from the game.

      (I kid because I love.)

  8. TV and the movies by Kupfernigk · · Score: 1, Troll
    All the people cast away on desert islands always seem to be pretty stupid. Perhaps they're onto something.

    Incidentally, I agree with BadAnalogyGuy up there; with no competition and limited resources you would expect expensive brains to be evolved out. Cats, for instance, conserve resources in part compared to dogs because they have brains with some of the "higher level" functions reduced. However, I didn't mod him up because I strongly object to the term "retards". It's unpleasant, and insulting to people with lower IQs or learning difficulties. It would be far more accurate to point out that many children could survive in a predator-free hunter-gatherer environment from the age of about 8 on, so that possibly sets a bar.

    --
    From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
    1. Re:TV and the movies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I live with a close family member who has a mental handicap or whatever the in vogue politically correct euphemism is this week and I am not bothered by him using the word 'retard'. Why are you so cut up about it?

    2. Re:TV and the movies by cyphercell · · Score: 1

      So if I called you a retard in front of your little sib (or whatever) how do you think he/she would feel knowing that you are smarter than them? Pretty small right?

      --
      Under the influence of Post-Cyberpunk Gonzo Journalism
    3. Re:TV and the movies by hoooocheymomma · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I strongly object to the term "retards".

      By treating the term retard as offensive, you are only feeding into its offensiveness. Retard means slow. If retard has any negative connotation at all, it is because being mentally slow is something that is inherently undesirable, and no matter what window dressing you do to it, the window dressing will always become an insult.

      If you had any depth to you, you would be more focused on trying to emphasize to as many people as possible that being a retard is not something worthy of being hated or abused. The word retard is not harmful at all, and it never will be. It is how people react to people who are retarded. When you focus on something as shallow as a word, you are hurting retards worldwide by misdirecting public attention from their cause.

      The 'Hobbits' are retards. And so are you for getting butthurt over the word retard.

    4. Re:TV and the movies by Bastard+of+Subhumani · · Score: 1, Funny

      However, I didn't mod him up because I strongly object to the term "retards". It's unpleasant, and insulting to people with lower IQs or learning difficulties.

      Right. Like they're totally going to notice.

      --
      Only three things are certain; death, taxes, and apocryphal quotations - Ben Franklin.
  9. Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    FTFS:

    Now researchers at the Natural History Museum in London believe that the creatures' small brains could have developed to reduce the creatures' energy needs, crucial for surviving in an isolated area with limited resources.

    Sorry, but evolution is not a goal-oriented process. Evolution is just the hindsight path that got us from "there" to "here."

    Yes, the small brains may have provided a small competitive advantage due to their lower energy needs, but that doesn't really say anything about how that actually translated into the evolutionary path that was taken.

    It's all just bullshit and mental masturbation if we make conjectures about why group A won out over group B. Maybe group A just liked having sex a lot. We'll never know, and it really doesn't matter.

    1. Re:Bullshit by Renraku · · Score: 1

      Humans typically like to explore and spread out. To the point where we'll brave extreme environments to find the oasis or to set up a colony on the other side of said environment. Animals would have very little motivation to cross a desert.

      Its possible that this particular species found their way onto an island and 'settled down'

      --
      Job? I don't have time to get a job! Who will sit around and bitch about being broke and unemployed then?
    2. Re:Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry, but evolution is not a goal-oriented process. Evolution is just the hindsight path that got us from "there" to "here."

      I completely agree, but I think, the sentence could be reworded and the point would still stand. For example, "The creatures smaller brains conserved energy, which provided a crucial competitive advantage in an isolated area with limited resources."

    3. Re:Bullshit by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Yes, the small brains may have provided a small competitive advantage due to their lower energy needs, but that doesn't really say anything about how that actually translated into the evolutionary path that was taken.

      Well, apart from trivial things like being less likely to starve during a famine, I agree - nothing at all. Well I suppose there's probably a reduction in cooling requirements too. But hey, if you say Jesus wanted them to be small, then how can I disagree?

      Now you need to use your imagination a little. Picture me looking at the monitor, swaying side to side with my thumbs in my ears and saying "Evolution can't happen in 6000 years, and the Earth hasn't existed longer!" in a stupid voice like somebody from Kansas. That's you, that is. That's you when you're on best behaviour, going for a job interview or up before the judge or something.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  10. This explains *so* much on "Lost" by gestalt_n_pepper · · Score: 1

    The brain shrinkage must be what's causing everyone to run around in the jungle in the rain at midnight. And don't even get me *started* on Gilligan's island.

    --
    Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
    1. Re:This explains *so* much on "Lost" by iYk6 · · Score: 1

      Single handedly storming into the hostile encampment, threatening their leader with a gun to ask for their help was an excellent plan. Who could have possibly seen that one going badly?

    2. Re:This explains *so* much on "Lost" by maxume · · Score: 1

      Gilligan's Island started from the premise that none of it was believable. Complaining about it is like trying to breath water.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    3. Re:This explains *so* much on "Lost" by gestalt_n_pepper · · Score: 1

      Joke, OK?

      --
      Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
    4. Re:This explains *so* much on "Lost" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      About as smart as setting off an H-bomb near a limitless source of time-distorting energy would be. For his next trick, Faraday will cure a headache by dropping an anvil on his dick.

    5. Re:This explains *so* much on "Lost" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, there you have it. Brain shrinkage.

  11. Meanwhile in Hobbiton.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sam to Frodo: "Mr. Frodo would you like a chocolate? My ole gaffer always says life's like a box of chocolates.. you never know what you're gonna get."

  12. isolated? by Tablizer · · Score: 1

    possess exceptionally small brains...suggests that the same could be true for H. floresiensis, and the result of being isolated on the island...

    Let's hope being isolated in a basement doesn't have the same ef ^~ ;afgh' qw } puppy! bug! pizza old, pizza good. yum old. momma want some?
           

    1. Re:isolated? by BadAnalogyGuy · · Score: 1

      The isolation would only cause such an effect visible between generations. That assumes that there would be some sort of reproduction occurring. Given that you are isolated in your parents' basement, and you probably reek of sweat, garlic, and Cheetos, it's not likely (though not 100% impossible) that you'd be able to observe such evolution in action.

    2. Re:isolated? by Tablizer · · Score: 2, Funny

      but we are attempting to reproduce via mitosis. We'll call it "human forking". It simplifies things.

    3. Re:isolated? by BadAnalogyGuy · · Score: 1

      Your use of the first person plural is worrisome.

    4. Re:isolated? by rts008 · · Score: 1

      That's just his 'split personality' talking.

      --
      Down With Slashdot BETA!!! I've been around the corner and seen the oliphant; you can only abuse me from your perspecti
  13. Slashdot by oldhack · · Score: 1

    The cave lady probably spent too much time on Slashdot Stone Edition. Damage was irreversible.

    --
    Fuck systemd. Fuck Redhat. Fuck Soylent, too. Wait, scratch the last one.
  14. Clearly demonstrated in this article's blurb by Roadkills-R-Us · · Score: 4, Insightful

    How does "some researchers believe" equate to "clearly demonstrated"? I think whoever wrote that blurb has experienced brain shrinkage!

    1. Re:Clearly demonstrated in this article's blurb by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 1

      I think those researchers must have read Galapagos.

      I think it's unlikely that the trait that allowed us to survive so many other environments would be selected against in a challenging environment.

      --
      ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
  15. not good at titles... by ubungy · · Score: 1

    I'm not seeing the sense in dwarfism caused by lack of resources. Erectus shows up and either there are resources to survive or not. If not they aren't going to survive how ever many evolutionary generations to 'match' their environment. That these fossils are being described as Homo erectus responding to isolation I don't buy either. In fact I remember seeing something that described to exact opposite using the komodo dragon as a example.

    1. Re:not good at titles... by Randle_Revar · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That these fossils are being described as Homo erectus responding to isolation I don't buy either.

      Why not? Island dwarfism and island gigantism are well know phenomena, even if we don't really understand why they happen.

    2. Re:not good at titles... by pixelpusher220 · · Score: 1

      This isn't 'dwarfism' as defined in medicine. It's just the evolution of a species overtime to a smaller size. Dwarfism is an abnormality in development that prevents reaching full size. These creatures were full size for their species. The size just got smaller over time.

      The theory makes perfect sense. Over time if some were born smaller, they need less food. Since food is already scarce, they'll have more food to share with their family since they need less themselves. Better nourishment gives you better chances for survival and reproducing.

      Whether the theory holds up in fact or not, it is quite plausible.

      As for the komodo dragon's, since they don't/didn't feed on the same food source as the hobbits, it's quite possible to see the different results. Since there aren't many large predators on the island and being the top of the food chain, their food source likely wasn't very limited.

      --
      People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people :-D
  16. Their using short-hand by JoshuaZ · · Score: 5, Insightful

    They don't mean that evolution was looking forward. They are talking to laymen and then getting it reported by a news report so by the end it will get simplified. What they mean is that selective pressure due to critical energy needs favored successively smaller brained individuals who were more able to effectively survive and have fertile offspring. Over the course of many generations, this led to small brains. Everyone understood what they meant when they said that. There's no good reason to nitpick about an attempt to give a short explanation to laypeople.

    1. Re:Their using short-hand by Mandrel · · Score: 1

      What they mean is that selective pressure due to critical energy needs favored successively smaller brained individuals who were more able to effectively survive and have fertile offspring. Over the course of many generations, this led to small brains.

      This is what happened to the Koala.

  17. Their should be "they're" by JoshuaZ · · Score: 2, Informative

    I'm not illiterate. I swear...

  18. not a new species? by BigHungryJoe · · Score: 3, Interesting

    ""It could be that H. floresiensis' skull is that of a Homo erectus that has become dwarfed from living on an island, rather than being an abnormal individual or separately-evolved species, as has been suggested," says palaeontologist Dr Eleanor Weston.

    Could someone explain why this wouldn't be a new species, even if it is an adapted homo erectus? isn't that how new species are formed? where is the "species" line drawn?

    1. Re:not a new species? by Randle_Revar · · Score: 3, Informative

      >where is the "species" line drawn?

      theoretically, when populations no longer interbreed. Note that the populations may still be fertile together, as long as they don't naturally and normally interbreed. They may be too far apart, or they may have very different mate attraction strategies that are not interesting to the other group.

      This definition, like many in biology, is in practice rather blurry, especially in plants and extinct organisms.

      In this case, I agree that saying an island dwarfed type of H. erectus *is* H. erectus seems silly, but then I am not a biologist.

    2. Re:not a new species? by oldhack · · Score: 1

      "where is the "species" line drawn?"

      Where convenient. See evolution.

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    3. Re:not a new species? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It could be that H. floresiensis' skull is that of a Homo erectus that has become dwarfed from living on an island, rather than being an abnormal individual or separately-evolved species

      Could someone explain why this wouldn't be a new species, even if it is an adapted homo erectus? isn't that how new species are formed? where is the "species" line drawn?

      For example, if resources are scarce on the island, then an H erectus population on the island might be chronically malnourished and therefore dwarfish. Maybe even small enough that an excited anthropologist wants to call it a distinct species. IMO, there really aren't enough specimens from that time to have a good sense of the boundaries of morphology.

      Imagine 20,000 years from now, digging up a half dozen malnourished Chinese peasants and Yao Ming. Same species?

    4. Re:not a new species? by TheLink · · Score: 1

      > They may be too far apart, or they may have very different mate attraction strategies that are not interesting to the other group.

      That definition might make Slashdotters a different species.

      --
    5. Re:not a new species? by DarkOx · · Score: 1

      There is an older slightly more ridged definition that many still prefer. Individuals are members of a different species if members of the populations cannot interbreed to produce fertile off spring. They may produce viable off spring. A horse and a donkey can produce a mule, a mule however is not fertile so horses and donkeys are still different species.

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    6. Re:not a new species? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A dwarfed human (Homo Sapien) is still a human (Homo Sapien).

  19. Re:Evolution Determines Intelligence by MightyMartian · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Not only are you a racist, but you're clearly an uneducated one as well. Africa is the most genetically diverse area in the world. Making the sorts of sweeping statements you did, regardless of whether they're racist or not, indicates that you actually have no fucking clue about human evolution.

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    The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
  20. i think the aeta are pretty interesting by circletimessquare · · Score: 4, Interesting

    while they aren't hobbits, they are similarly ancient, diminuitive peoples of southeast asia whose history may be instructive of how succeeding waves of human and proto-humans competed with and replaced each other. based on the experience of the aeta, i wouldn't be surprised if the last flores hobbit died at the sharp end of a homo sapien's stick

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negrito

    The term Negrito refers to several ethnic groups in isolated parts of Southeast Asia.[1] Their current populations include the Aeta, Agta, Ayta, Ati, Dumagat and at least 25 other tribes of the Philippines, the Semang of the Malay peninsula, the Mani of Thailand and 12 Andamanese tribes of the Andaman Islands of the Indian Ocean.

    Negritos share some common physical features with African pygmy populations, including short stature, natural afro-hair texture, and dark skin; however, their origin and the route of their migration to Asia is still a matter of great speculation. They are genetically distant from Africans at most loci studied thus far (except for MCR1, which codes for dark skin). They have also been shown to have separated early from Asians, suggesting that they are either surviving descendants of settlers from an early migration out of Africa, or that they are descendants of one of the founder populations of modern humans.[2]

    essentially, ancient remnant isolated melanesian populations in largely malay and thai areas across indonesia, malaysia, the philippines, and thailand. the malays took over the coastal areas over time, and now the aeta live in tiny mountain tribes. they also existed in china until recently. han and malay peoples just either outright exterminated them, outcompeted them, or genetically intermarried and swamped them out of existence

    http://www.africaresource.com/rasta/sesostris-the-great-the-egyptian-hercules/the-black-african-foundation-of-china-honouring-the-aboriginal-black-people-of-china/

    Chinese historians called them "black dwarfs" in the Three Kingdoms period (AD 220 to AD 280) and they were still to be found in China during the Qing dynasty (1644 to 1911). In Taiwan they were called the "Little Black People" and, apart from being diminutive, they were also said to be broad-nosed and dark-skinned with curly hair. After the Little Black People -- and well before waves of Han migrations after 1600 -- came the Aboriginal tribes, who are part of the Austronesian race. They are thought to have come from the Malay Archipelago 6,000 years ago at the earliest and around 1,000 years ago at the latest, though theories on Aborigine migration to Taiwan are still hotly debated. Gradually the Little Black People became scarcer, until a point about 100 years ago, when there was just a small group living near the Saisiyat tribe. The story goes that the Little Black People taught the Saisiyat to farm by providing seeds and they used to party together.

    in the philippines, the aeta famously came to light after the eruption of mount pinatubo, and this isolated group of peoples, probably living on the mountain isolated for hundreds if not thousands of years, were suddenly driven into the modern world

    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2001/11/11/MN206799.DTL

    the island of negros in the philippines gets its name from the spanish who found large numbers of aeta who lived there, at one time. now the island is almost completely malay

    the dutch hurried along the process of the supplanting of the aeta with more cooperative malay slaves by genocidally emptying some strategic spice islands because the aetas proved uncooperative in the profitable nutmeg trade:

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    1. Re:i think the aeta are pretty interesting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Isn't the Negrito a new meal from Taco Bell?

  21. Still seems silly to me by Moraelin · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Still seems silly to me, when you start renaming actual medical conditions just for fear of hurting the emotions of someone even worse off. Should we also stop calling autism autism, just because someone even more autistic out there could feel unhappy about it? Should we stop calling asthma asthma, just because some people are even more crippled by it?

    The real insulting part in your example would be your using that term as an inherent insult, instead of a medical condition. _That_ is what ends up annoying those who genuinely have that condition.

    But when you get to the point of actually using the euphemisms even for the actual disease, something tells me that you're missing the whole point.

    --
    A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
  22. Re:18,000 - amazing (OT: CSS) by Tablizer · · Score: 1

    I have similar problems in 2 different vendor's browsers. I just wish Slashdot had a "plain jane html" option. It's generally fast and reliable.

  23. Controversy by a1056 · · Score: 2, Informative
    There were two papers published in Nature on this topic, one of which the article above is based on and the other suggests that this is not enough of an explanation. The-Scientist has a great article summarizing the reports. http://www.the-scientist.com/blog/display/55677/ (the-scientist) free registration required

    "Both of these papers show things that could not have evolved or been a plastic response within our own species," George Washington University paleoanthropologist Bernard Wood told The Scientist. Wood, who was not involved with either study, added that the papers raise important questions regarding the evolutionary origins of H. floresiensis that only further research can answer.

    While they certainly agree with the diminuative size being related to reduced energy needs they suggest that it is not just a reduced example of homo erectus.

    In the other Nature paper, William Jungers, a paleoanthropologist at Stony Brook University in New York, and his coauthors compared the Hobbit foot to the few existing feet in the fossil record. "You just don't see complete feet until you get into Neanderthal," Jungers told The Scientist. "The fossil record of feet is surprisingly meager." If H. floresiensis was in fact a dwarfed H. erectus, the species would have had to amass primitive features after its ancestor had already evolved more modern skeletal characteristics. "It's asking a lot for evolution to backtrack like that," Jungers said. "Is it possible? I guess, but there's no precedent.".

    Of course all of this analysis is very subjective. Morphological studies have created a number of strange controversies over the years in evolution. One really hotly contested area was the differences between Bat speicies the larger "flying fox" type that eat fruit and the smaller insect eating bat were throught to have evolved separately at one point and thought to be an example of convergent evolution (this ended up to be wrong). The real answer to this question would need to be settled using DNA mutation rate and genetics. if you want a firm answer everything else is just conjecture, even if it is well informed conjecture.

    1. Re:Controversy by nyctopterus · · Score: 1

      DNA mutation rates are not fixed. They need to be calibrated against the fossil record, as well as a bunch of other stuff. DNA evidence is not the magic definite science you seek.

      The problem with bats was the lack of early fossils. Morphological studies with a good fossil record can be pretty reliable. It is not just conjecture--morphological studies include predictions which can be tested.

    2. Re:Controversy by a1056 · · Score: 1

      You are very right that DNA mutation rates are not fixed and I was not trying to suggest that you could establish the age of the fossil from DNA (you can date the fossil itself very accurately). What genetics can show us is if the genes are more closely related to H. erectus or to a common predessor then we can conclude if these fossils are a derivitive of H. erectus or another species. The bat problem came from the fact that while looking like a bat is a fairly good common trait between the two families, the flying fox type bats had optic nerves that were more similar to other mammals species than they were to other bat types. This suggested that either the bat phenotype evolved twice or that the optic nerve evolved twice, hence convergent evolution where the same phenotype evolves twice. In the case of the bats it was the optic nerve that evolved in both the fruit eating bats and in other mammals separately. It is convergent evolution that confuses the issue with morphological studies you have the same organ/bone but you cannot be sure that it means that the organisms you are comparing are related or if they evolved the same feature independently. Genetics can show you the degree of relatedness between the species and determine which ancestory the organism in question is most closely related to.

  24. Ok by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

    Sure, that explains the small brains... but what explains the pointed ears and large, hairy feet?

    --
    I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    1. Re:Ok by Randle_Revar · · Score: 1

      Tolkien's Hobbits did not have pointed ears.

    2. Re:Ok by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

      Unless Wikipedia is lying again, in The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, #27, Tolkien describes Hobbits thus:

      I picture a fairly human figure, not a kind of 'fairy' rabbit as some of my British reviewers seem to fancy: fattish in the stomach, shortish in the leg. A round, jovial face; ears only slightly pointed and 'elvish'; hair short and curling (brown). The feet from the ankles down, covered with brown hairy fur. Clothing: green velvet breeches; red or yellow waistcoat; brown or green jacket; gold (or brass) buttons; a dark green hood and cloak (belonging to a dwarf).

      If you don't think "slightly pointed" is the same as "pointed", perhaps you don't consider "slightly pregnant" the same as "pregnant" either.

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    3. Re:Ok by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I contest this remark about Tolkien's Hobbits not having pointy ears.
      http://tolkien.slimy.com/essays/Ears.html

    4. Re:Ok by Sloppy · · Score: 1

      But they had wings.

      --
      As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
    5. Re:Ok by Randle_Revar · · Score: 1

      I stand corrected. I believe there is nothing in The Hobbit or LotR about pointed ears, and I was unaware of this letter.

  25. RE: LB1 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What really aggravates me is that all mainstream anthropologists are sometimes blind. I urge anyone interested in the topic to read Voyages of the Pyramid Builders by Dr. Robert Schoch. It has a very detailed hypothesis as to the migration pattern of a global culture eons ago. This migration originated from the Indonesian Islands and was possibly started due to global flooding. More details are in the book, and it is my belief that they are pretty solid findings.

    The fact that remnants of a 18K year old civilization were found just solidies that hypothesis even more. The belief that Africa is the cradle of civilization is losing more speed with every find. Especially given that the skeleton of Lucy and LB1 were almost an identical match.

  26. I think it was the Longbottom leaf by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It stunted their growth.

  27. But I read months ago... by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

    ...that the whole "different species" theory was completely debunked. Seems the editors did not notice this. Which is quite a feat, considering that they most likely posted it themselves here on Slashdot. ^^

    --
    Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
  28. Different Species by firmamentalfalcon · · Score: 1

    Homo floresiensis is different than Homo Erectus. Homo erectus died out a million years ago. Homo floresiensis died out 18000 years ago.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_(genus)

    1. Re:Different Species by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      Homo floresiensis is different than Homo Erectus. Homo erectus died out a million years ago. Homo floresiensis died out 18000 years ago.

      Based on the strict definition of "species", the only way to tell for sure would be to see if an erectus can have a kid with a floresiensis. Since that's probably not going to happen any-time soon (although my neighbors make me wonder), we only have speculation.

      Rather than get caught up in a somewhat pedantic classification debate, let's just agree it would be fascinating to sample the DNA of a different line of homo.

      And, I apologize for not making my post more clear.
             

  29. Makes sense by Jessta · · Score: 4, Funny

    This makes a lot of sense. A large part of what appears to have encouraged the increase in reasoning ability of human beings has been our complex social interaction. On an island with a small population the social interaction would be simpler and thus less reasoning would be required.

    A monkey can make a spear and hunt for food, it takes a human being to figure out that when your girlfriend is telling you about her problems she just wants to complain about it and doesn't actually want you to help create a solution.

    --
    ...and that is all I have to say about that.
    http://jessta.id.au
  30. Shoot, man. by silver007 · · Score: 1

    "Now researchers at the Natural History Museum in London believe that the creatures' small brains could have developed to reduce the creatures' energy needs" So, if you're overweight due to excessive eating, you can just say you're got a big ol' brain to feed.

  31. Small Brains by teko_teko · · Score: 1

    Well at least you'll be less attractive to zombies when you have smaller brain...

  32. Could someone explain the "brain case" argument? by scorp1us · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I took Human Evolution in college. I really liked it. But there is some phallic fascination with brain case size as being a important factor in approximating intelligence.

    We have parrots that are as intelligent as 4-year olds. We have bears that are dumber. We have cephalopods that have a lot of intelligence in a few cm^3. Brain case volume to me, does not seem to have a determining factor in intelligence.

    The density of brain matter would seem to be relevant as we look at brain function in terms of neural complexity. As density increases required volume decreases. And since to soft tissue survive, we have no idea of neural density. It seems that neural density would be a much better proxy for intelligence - particularly when looking in the same genus. (As opposed to cephalopods which have an entirely different brain morphology)

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  33. Re: LB1 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    shut the hell up. No one here is interested in your bullshit.

  34. More likely a random mutation... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It is more likely a random mutation that resulted in this particular species. To attribute "survival" or "low energy needs" for this mutation sounds quite preposterous. I dont know whether subconsciously we can think our-selves to mutate like some kind of connection between brain cells and germ cells. IMHO, living cells constantly mutate on a random basis (for whatever reason that happens) and if the mutation is positive the living thing part of the mutation survives and passes it as well, if mutation is negative then it works detrimentally to the living thing that is part of it. So, I guess, the mutation resulting in this species was probably more random than anything else. Also, this species co-existed with other species and for competition how come they didn't mutate to be stronger or something. It is possible this random mutation caused them hardship to compete for food with in the midst of other species and it is likely they found a place that is remote and would suffice their needs.

    1. Re:More likely a random mutation... by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      Well of course it's mutations, but I would suspect that, considering that hominid evolution shows a clear trend towards larger cranial capacity, there must have been some very severe selective pressures on this particular species which caused a very profound reversal of that trend. Evolution simply isn't a bunch of random alleles accidentally "working" for an environment.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    2. Re:More likely a random mutation... by 4D6963 · · Score: 1

      Hmm, are you familiar with the concept of insular dwarfism? If these scientists say it's Homo erectus + insular dwarfism, what on Earth allows you to doubt it?

      --
      You just got troll'd!
  35. Re:Evolution Determines Intelligence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Are you from Africa?

    "The apologists claim that African poverty is to solely to White and Japanese oppression."

    "Africa is a failure society due to the lower intelligence of the African people."

  36. I know him by hurfy · · Score: 1

    Isn't he the lead designer for Duke Nukem Forever?

  37. Why? by uglydog · · Score: 1

    Do you have a reason for saying it's bunk? This is not my field so maybe you're right, but nothing sticks out from the articles.
    And by "bunk", you mean that these fossils are NOT dwarfed humans, right? Because the other alternative that is being floated is that it's a distinct species.

  38. Re:We already knew this. by z80kid · · Score: 1

    Extreme cases can also cause aggrevated swelling of the brain as it's shrinkage puts more pressure on the neurons.

    Hurry. It looks like you don't have a moment to lose.

  39. You're hired! by wsanders · · Score: 1

    No, but IT departments everywhere will be clamoring to hire the new race of dim-witted cavemen who will apparently, literally, work for less peanuts.

    --
    Give a man a fish and you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish, and he'll say "WHERE'S MY FISH, YOU IDIOT?"
  40. Re:Could someone explain the "brain case" argument by z80kid · · Score: 2, Funny

    But there is some phallic fascination with brain case size

    Naw. Those researchers are just dickheads.

  41. Re:Evolution Determines Intelligence by Hognoxious · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Insects are pretty diverse. None of them are very big. Not much variation in number of legs either.

    Thus it would appear that diverse doesn't mean "covers the entire scale on every possible variable". Therefore it does not at all refute GPs post.

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  42. Re:Could someone explain the "brain case" argument by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That makes complete sense to me... especially considering the cases of primordial dwarfism. Many of them are as small as, or smaller than many of the fossils found for flor but there are plenty of them that are excelling at school and are considered quite bright. I pointed this out the last time this was brought up, but nobody recognized my comment.

  43. evolution is effectively goal-oriented by r00t · · Score: 2, Interesting

    That goal is survival. OK, it's anthropomorphizing to call it a "goal", as if there were thought or desire involved, but that's of no importance. Survival (long term Nth generation) is effectively the goal.

    The relevant error is to think that the survival goal of evolution must somehow coincide with the qualities that we humans desire or respect. No way! If passionate religion or inability to comprehend birth control make it more likely that you have surviving descendents in the Nth generation, then those traits get selected for. It's perfectly valid, and even likely, that evolution selects against people who accept evolution. :-)

    Note that modern society could allow the island effect to apply worldwide. After all, the Earth itself is a sort of island in space.

  44. Re:Could someone explain the "brain case" argument by Swanktastic · · Score: 1

    Have you read Dawkin's "The Ancestor's Tale?" There's a tremendous amount of discussion on this issue, and it's one of the most fascinating books I've ever read.

    You're right. The proper measurement is brain mass, not size. Unfortunately it's difficult to measure mass of soft tissue in fossils. Typically, there is a linear relationship between log(body mass) and log(brain mass). Humans and dolphins are the real outliers to the line, with primates outlying to a lesser extent. The animals we think of as being smart are always above average in log(brain mass)/log(body mass).

  45. Re:18,000 - amazing (OT: CSS) by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

    It doesn't work properly in IE or Firefox. At least it sucks in different ways, whch breaks up the tedium a little.

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  46. United States of Canada by tepples · · Score: 1

    No, but it explains the "we've hit 57 states, and have one more to go" Obama.

    Perfectly reasonable: 47 states and 10 provinces.

  47. I call bullshit by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

    Although the phenomenon of dwarfism on islands is well recognized in large mammals, an accompanying reduction in brain size has never been clearly demonstrated before

    Bullshit. Either they'd be unable to stand up or their poor little necks would snap.

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  48. we all live on islands by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We all live on islands and therefore we all have Island Brains.

    1. Re:we all live on islands by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      We all live on islands and therefore we all have Island Brains.

      But I live in a yellow submarine, with four mop-headed lads who never bathe.
             

  49. Part of speech by tepples · · Score: 1

    Should we also stop calling autism autism, just because someone even more autistic out there could feel unhappy about it? Should we stop calling asthma asthma, just because some people are even more crippled by it?

    I think it's the part of speech. Contrast "a retard", "a retarded person", and "a person with retardation." Likewise, in the autism spectrum, contrast "an Aspie" with "a person with Asperger's", at least until such people reclaim "Aspie".

    1. Re:Part of speech by cvd6262 · · Score: 1

      Google "euphemism treadmill".

      --

      I'd rather have someone respond than be modded up.

    2. Re:Part of speech by Moraelin · · Score: 1

      Hmm, maybe it's just me, but I never thought "aspie" was an insult or heard it used as an obvious insult.

      --
      A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
  50. sciencedaily article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Science Daily has a recent article about their feet. Does that article
    contradict this article? I thought so, but I'm not positive:
    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/05/090506144307.htm

    ""H. floresiensis is either an island-dwarfed descendant of H. erectus that not only underwent body-size reduction but also extensive evolutionary reversals, or, as our analysis suggests, it represents a new species full of primitive retentions from an ancestor that dispersed out of Africa much earlier than anyone would have predicted."

  51. Dangerous to draw strong conclusions yet by wonkavader · · Score: 1

    The "hobbits" represent a divergence from established models of Human evolutionary history. There are huge egos and invested in keeping things as they are. Conversely, there are careers to be made by getting people to believe something new.

    Because of this, new people are going to overstate the likelihood that these little people represent a missing line, and established people will come up with all kinds of tenuous arguments saying that they are NOT.

    You can't believe either side. Let them duke this out for a few years before coming to any conclusions.

    1. Re:Dangerous to draw strong conclusions yet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is complete indifference toward the subject an option?

  52. Re:We already knew this. by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

    You too. You missed "it's".

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  53. hobits by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    hobits r dum!

  54. Re:My theory of Slashdot editors/hobbits by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Does that mean that I should remove you from the list?

  55. Re:My theory of Slashdot editors/hobbits by decoy256 · · Score: 1

    Um, the term "Hobbits" has been applied to this species almost from the beginning and by almost every news source. This is a valid scientific discussion and if you have a problem with the term "Hobbits", take it up with the scientists, don't blame Slashdot.

    In conclusion, you are a filthy whiner and good riddance.

  56. Re:Could someone explain the "brain case" argument by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I wholeheartedly agree! I don't know why this is not more apparent to people.

  57. Re:Evolution Determines Intelligence by ttroutma · · Score: 1

    It would be useful if you could explain how the post is incorrect.

  58. Interesting finding, but... by qazwart · · Score: 1

    There is now extra evidence in the feet that these individuals are not Homo Erectus or Home Sapiens. The latest findings are the feet which appear to be more "chimplike" than the feet that you find in H. Erectus or H. Sapiens.

    This includes extremely long foot, flat arch, long, more thumb like big toe. Whomever this creature is, it didn't do much in the way of running. However, the foot structure and the structure of the limbs does show that this creature was bipedal. The large toe, although longer and more thumb-like is not separated from the rest of the foot like in chimps. But, it certainly shows some older forms. The legs are also much shorter than you'd find in the other two species of Homo mentioned above.

    Although the pigmy hippos show reduction in cranial capacity beyond the simple reduction in size, other aspects of these creatures are not different from normal hippo. The reduced brain could save a lot of energy, and there might not be much need on an isolated island for raw brain power.

    But, how does this explain the structure of the foot for H. Floresiensis? These H. Floresiensis wouldn't have reverted back to a more primitive foot.

    There has been some new evidence that pre-H Erectus humanoids did escape from Africa and populated what is now Asia minor. It could be possible that H Floresiensis could have evolved from a pre-H. Erectus humanoid.

    Then again, in an island setting where there is little food, a very small inbred population, and little worry about predators, that genetic defects that may have hurt the survival chances of a normal H. Erectus or Sapien could have survived in this setting. Genetic drift could explain the reduced size, the reduced cranial capacity, the flat feet, and the enlarged toe.

    Some of this might be settled if some genetic information could be pulled out one of the bones. However, with these slight bone sizes, there might not be a lot of genetic information.

    1. Re:Interesting finding, but... by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      It would have to be pretty damned ancient, because even the Australopithecines (starting around 3.5-3.7 million years ago) had a fairly modern leg and foot structure, and I can tell you right now there's no evidence that they spread out of Africa, and most certainly zero evidence that any previous hominids did.

      I don't see why this is a very compelling argument for H. floresiensis descending from some pre-H. erectus population. That's like saying whales didn't descend from land-bound mammals because they have fins like fish. An explanation that doesn't require some unknown migration out of Africa by a pre-hominid, or at least extremely early hominid, is that the foot structure of H. floresiensis, for whatever reason evolved to appear like that of older hominids, much as its cranial size is clearly quite reduced as compared to other members of the genus Homo.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
  59. Re:Evolution Determines Intelligence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    or sarah palin.

  60. Re:Matches My Observations by LaughingCoder · · Score: 1

    Methinks you are confused. Are you perhaps a city dweller? Given that the suburbs are much more spacious than urban dwellings, it would follow from the article that suburbanites' brains have evolved to be larger than urbanites.

    --
    The more you regulate a company, the worse its products become.
  61. Re:Evolution Determines Intelligence by MightyMartian · · Score: 4, Informative

    I don't think you quite understand what genetic diversity means in this case. In this case it means that making claims about Africans as if they were a homogeneous group is ludicrous. We're talking about several distinct populations in sub-Saharan Africa that have more genetic distance between them than every other single human population in the world. Even if there were some populations in Africa that were genetically predisposed to be less intelligent (and there's no evidence whatsoever for that), that would hardly reflect on the other major genetic lineages in the area.

    So yes, genetic diversity plays directly against "black people are dumber" sorts of racists. There is no "black" race to begin with, save as a ethno-cultural artifact.

    --
    The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
  62. Re:Evolution Determines Intelligence by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

    I did, and I will again. You have an incredibly diverse number of populations in Africa, in genetic terms. It's much more diverse than anywhere else on the planet (as the Out of Africa theory predicts). To say "Africans are genetically predetermined to be dumber than everyone else" is completely moronic, considering that there is no singular African lineage, but a number that go very very deep in time. Even if you could, say, make a claim that one group is somehow genetically more likely to produce less intelligent members, how would that possibly carry over into the other lineages? And to be clear here, I'm posing a hypothetical question, there is no evidence that Africans are less intelligent than other human populations. But the point here is that there is no singular African population, but rather several different distinct African populations, thus the very high diversity in Africa.

    The genetic distance, for instance, between a San bushman and someone of Bantu stock is much greater than the genetic distance between a Inca Indian and an Irishman.

    --
    The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
  63. Epigenetics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I am not a biologist but is this not an excellent example of epigenetics?

  64. Re:Could someone explain the "brain case" argument by Tablizer · · Score: 1

    We have parrots that are as intelligent as 4-year olds.

    Citation? Perhaps in specific tasks, but I doubt it would be so using the sum of a wide variety of tests.
         

  65. Evolution Determines Intelligence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    On a more serious note, the discovery of this branch of humanity demonstrates -- yet again -- that evolution determines intelligence. The remote, resource-limited environment reduced the brain size. A tiny brain also lowers intelligence.

    Again, evolution determines intelligence.

    In other words, as mankind "left" Africa to populate the globe, his body and mind evolved. The intelligence of Europeans and Japanese people are different from the intelligence of Africans. That explains why African nations are failed societies.

    Yet, apologists continue to say that Africans have the same intelligence as Europeans and Japanese people. The apologists claim that African poverty is due solely to White and Japanese oppression.

    Impossible.

    Look at Japan. It has a tiny fraction of the natural resources of Africa. Yet, the Japanese people created the 2nd-richest nation on the planet.

    Africa is a failed society due to the lower intelligence of the African people.

  66. Thanks (Re:Evolution Determines Intelligence) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Thanks for pointing out my typos.

    I took the opportunity to correct the errors and to re-post my article, restoring the MOD point that was deducted.

    Again, thanks.

  67. Re:Could someone explain the "brain case" argument by greyhueofdoubt · · Score: 1

    I think that brain energy needs in relation to the rest of the body's energy needs should be considered, and this is related to brain case size.

    Humans' gestation, childrearing, nuclear family, tribe-based society, etc. all essentially stem from our huge brains. Our entire society served to support helpless babies- and our babies had to be born so young as to be helpless so that their huge heads didn't kill their mother during childbirth. Even with the early birth, we still require a fontanelle so our head can squish through the pelvis.

    When you look at it that way, our large brain case is pretty important in our general development over the last million years or so. As you go back in time and find proto-humans with smaller brain-cases, you can make educated judgments about their social structure, reasoning ability, etc.

    None of this serves to place humans on a pedastal above other thinking creatures who have entirely different brain structures and evolutionary pressures.

    -b

    --
    No offense, but I've stopped responding to AC's.
  68. Re:Evolution Determines Intelligence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    Africa's past has vast, long-lived empires on the same if not larger scale than Europe and Asia. The only point where Africa has "failed" in the last few centuries is that Europeans developed gunpowder and were able to subjugate the entire continent. There were universities and libraries in Africa long before they existed in Europe.

  69. Vegetarianism by Any+Web+Loco · · Score: 1

    Have a think about it in terms of vegetarianism

  70. Interesting theory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is it possible that the creatures' small brains didn't develop to reduce the creatures' energy needs, but instead developed to enhance watching NASCAR?

  71. Re:Evolution Determines Intelligence by cinderblock · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Look at Japan. It has a tiny fraction of the natural resources of Africa. Yet, the Japanese people created the 2nd-richest nation on the planet.

    My history may be way off but:

    Didn't the Japanese move there recently (evolutionary timescale) from the mainland? There wouldn't be enough time for evolution to make an equivalent difference. Modern (same timescale) cultures can offset a lack in resources easily. After overcoming that hurdle, a small land mass can be a blessing for a country's development. One example is how much better their connectivity is because they don't need to span a country the size of the US.

    Are both ends of the spectrum the best for a country's development? US = huge = tons of resources, japan = small = needs less resources. (I realize that there might be a lower limit to this, making this not work for tiny countries. There are also other factors that have led to Japan's success)

  72. Hobbits probably own species, not just shrunken by jeffsenter · · Score: 2, Informative

    The discovery and debate over the "hobbits" Homo floresiensis is fascinating.

    It appears that the hobbits are a unique species and not a shrunken version of Homo erectus based not so much on brain size, but on different and more ape-like body parts including feet, wrists, hips, and shoulders. The NYTimes has a couple of stories on this.

  73. Re:Evolution Determines Intelligence by DarkOx · · Score: 1

    Well, Mr.AC

    I am going to ignore your obvious racism. I am also not going to comment on things I don't know enough about to even speculate. I am simply going to put this question to you. I am going to ignore Africans vs. Rest of the world stuff too because its not related to the topic.

    On what basis do conclude a smaller brain implies less intelligence, particularly in creatures within the same genius?

    Perhaps a smaller brain is simply more compact, the article was talking about it being smaller for reasons of caloric efficiency, we can't really know if it is less powerful. My car engine displaces only 2.7 liters, and its much more powerful than some big seven and eight liter classic cars. Smaller does not always indicate less output. Elephants have larger brains than Humans, do you think they are smarter then we are? Last I checked I am not the one in the zoo doing tricks for peanuts.

    --
    Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
  74. Bad grammar in TFA. by mattack2 · · Score: 1

    The 'hobbits,' dubbed homo floresiensis

    Argh, that came from TFA (and there's no way to comment on TFA). It should be "The homo floresiensis, dubbed 'hobbits'.."
    From the definition of dubbed:
      b: to call by a distinctive title, epithet, or nickname

  75. Re:Evolution Determines Intelligence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I just read that blacks and mexicans will soon outnumber humans!

  76. Re:Could someone explain the "brain case" argument by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Only +1? Wow, tough crowd tonight.

  77. Re:Evolution Determines Intelligence by ttroutma · · Score: 1

    Yeah but uh, the Inca and the Irish both produced civilizations and the Bushman and the Bantu have not. It seems to me that there may be a missing component common over many of these diverse African populations that has an inhibiting effect on the creation of large well organized civilizations. I'm just say'in they don't seem to be able to get their shit together, maybe there is a problem present that if it weren't ignored, could be treated (with some future genetic therapy) or dealt with more effectively to both the African's and their entire worlds benefit if it were understood.

  78. Re:Evolution Determines Intelligence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Africa's great genetic diversity produces some pretty smart (and dedicated) individuals. Unfortunately also some amazingly, er, intellectually challenged ones - and the rest of the bell curve drag those at the top down to the lowest common denominator due to the way the culture works (at least, in what I see around me - I'm not a sociologist, anthropologist etc.) It's quite a social society (ubuntu and all that), but the vision is extremely short-term and in the end self-centric. Society wants to share in any outlier's welfare, whether deserved or not, whether strictly needed for survival or not - reserve resources in the group are used up for instant gratification. Arguably those resources might go much further to uplift society over the long term due to the knock-on effect, if left to be used for the development of that gifted individual.

  79. Hobbits? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Perhaps they were just early mac users, ya know, their brains are very small too.

  80. Re:Evolution Determines Intelligence by natarnsco · · Score: 1

    Last I checked I am not the one in the zoo doing tricks for peanuts.

    With a bit of philosophical reflection on modern human life, I think that's debatable.

  81. Re:Could someone explain the "brain case" argument by againjj · · Score: 1

    Going across species as you are, you should consider the brain size to body mass ratio, as opposed to the brain size. You get a much stronger correlation that way.

  82. Re:Could someone explain the "brain case" argument by Ceriel+Nosforit · · Score: 1

    Some squids have huge neurons for the sake of reaction speed. Huge neurons need huge space.

    QED, size -> intelligence = huge bullshit.

    --
    All rites reversed 2010
  83. NOVA just covered this / discounted that theory.. by patniemeyer · · Score: 1

    Just last week NOVA had an episode on this topic. Prior to that I was under the impression that it had been settled that they were simply adapted regular humans. However the NOVA episode implied strongly that there is a consensus building that they are actually a different species. They presented brain shape, tooth shape, and wrist bone shape studies that didn't line up with modern humans.