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NASA Running Low On Fuel For Space Exploration
smooth wombat writes "With the end of the Cold War came warmer relations with old adversaries, increased trade and a world less worried about nuclear war. It also brought with it an unexpected downside: lack of nuclear fuel to power deep space probes. Without this fuel, probes beyond Jupiter won't work because there isn't enough sunlight to use solar panels, which probes closer to the sun use. The fuel NASA relies on to power deep space probes is plutonium-238. This isotope is the result of nuclear weaponry, and since the United States has not made a nuclear device in 20 years, the supply has run out. For now, NASA is using Soviet supplies, but they too are almost exhausted. It is estimated it will cost at least $150 million to resume making the 11 pounds per year that is needed for space probes."
Or if that wont work it looks like there is a decent chance we'll be able to buy some from the Taliban soon.
It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
Can't wind farms and solar energy suffice?
I'm not a nuclear scientist by any means, but would it be possible to harvest the heat and radiation from spent fuel and convert that to electricity?
(I'm assuming this wouldn't be possible for gamma radiation, but alpha/beta radiation should be doable, as well as with simple residual heat)
Viable Slashdot alternatives: https://pipedot.org/ and http://soylentnews.org/
Hey, maybe Iran or North Korea would let us borrow some of theirs!
That's the exact amount of money a mad scientist would want to disarm a nuclear bomb he built himself and placed in a heavily populated area. A byproduct of his mad-genius nuke is the same plutonium-238 isotope, and he doesn't know what to do with it!!! We need to get these people together.
I just hope this lack of fuel won't cause problems, and doesn't href="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/scienceandtechnology/technology/technologynews/5105
In news unrelated to their shortage of plutonium, NASA is also looking for a buyer for a shiny bomb casing full of used pinball machine parts...
Michael Coyne
http://turthalion.blogspot.com
....Space probes You!!
We allowed breeder reactors or nuclear reprocessing at civilian reactors.
Can't wind farms and solar energy suffice?
No. Wind farms work on the relative velocity between the ground and the atmosphere, but in space, there's no ground and almost no atmosphere. And the summary states: "there isn't enough sunlight to use solar panels".
Just make the probes with wind-up springs. It works in the cartoons.
Table-ized A.I.
I know Sr-90 is often also used in similar devices (mainly Russian ones), any reason why we can't switch to that?
Necessity is the mother of all invention. Lets take this opportunity to find a new method of powering probes for such long distance missions.
I thought the big fuel expense was breaking atmo. What happened to coasting in space?
The people at NASA are far more intelligent than myself, I'm ok with admiting that. But it seems like one large solar collector nearer the Sun that then uses lasers or microwaves to beam the energy to traveling devices on their way out of the solar system might actually work.
No sig for you. YOU GET NO SIG!
Shit, the Federal Reserve is printing that much money in a week nowadays. It can't be that hard for NASA to get a slice. Couldn't they just threaten a banker or two with Rods from God over their mansions or something?
Failing that, Obama's got a trillion dollar budget - that's 100,000 millions. Surely they could slip a line item into page 247 easy-as-you-please and nobody will know the difference since they never read the damn bills anyway.
NASA needs to learn how this country operates now and get with the program.
Just bring Uranus closer to the sun.
Table-ized A.I.
The US still has plenty of nuclear warheads that could be retired and their plutonium used for this purpose, unless for some reason the fuel has degraded.
President Obama has suggested additional reductions in nuclear arms held by the US and Russia, so perhaps the plutonium from those could be used.
Or perhaps NASA could adapt their generators to use plutonium 239, which they could get from a Fast Breeder reactor, if we ever build one.
The French have made bombs, too, and they are big on breeder reactors that produce (and consume) lots of plutonium.
nuf sed
Table-ized A.I.
It's pronounced "newkyaler" - the S is silent.
creation science book
http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=99/05/20/1320256 (i've been reading /. way too long.)
It's about time we found something more expensive than the refills for my inkjet.
(If you are going to tell me to wait to post about mentioning how long....)
This sounds a lot like a teenager throwing a tantrum for a certain specific purpose, deliberately pretending there are no other alternatives. Surely the great minds at NASA can get hold of several newer, better, cheaper alternatives to Pu 238?
Weapons-grade plutonium is made by refining nuclear waste in a reactor. This process reduces nuclear waste by 95%, but is frowned upon by the major nuclear powers because it produces weapons-grade plutonium, and no one wants to be manufacturing bomb-making material. They've been doing it since the 1940's so its not new or anything. The problem is also that such manufacture is illegal on an international scale.
The article says that P-238 is used as a power source because of the heat is causes during decay. Surely someone could come up with a better power source for these probes than a rare isotope. I'm not even sure than this plutonium could be manufactured by refining nuclear waste, since that process produces P-239.
And over there we have the labyrinth guards. One always lies, one always tells the truth, and one stabs people who ask t
I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that, in addition to the electricity needed to run cameras, sensors, the main CPU of the probes, and radio, etc, that part of the reason to use radioactive materials to power these deep space probes was to keep them warm enough that they could actually still operate? Doesn't the probe have to heat itself somehow?
Plutonium-238 for 2015 delivery now trading at $852,272.73 per ounce.
Failure to follow this advice may result in non-deterministic behavior.
This is a golden opportunity. Just develop an automobile with a Stirling Engine heated with PU-238 and let all the oil companies in on the action. In no time PU-238 will be EVERYWHERE! Results - Reduced CO2 output, cars that go 1,000,000 miles on a fill up, and the a better than even chance at population reduction!
There is a source available. Just decommission a few nuclear warheads each year. Since the US has enough nuclear weapons to basically end civilization, I suspect some could be spared without meaningfully degrading national security.
See here: http://images.google.com/images?q=mr+fusion. Mr Fusion was pioneered after problems dealing with Iranians who historically had supplied Plutonium out of the back of their VW Bus.
War! Huh! What is it good for?
Space exploration, apparently.
Are there people in this country naive enough to believe the United States hasn't made a nuclear device in 20 years??
Just launch the probes with enough fuel to get out of the solar system and a cardboard sign listing the desired destination.
To all the smart alecks, no they can't use weapons grade plutonium, which is 239, they need 238, which has a much shorter half-life (88 y compared to 24100 y) and therefore gives off much more energy. They don't need an isoptope that is fissile, they need one with a short half-life.
I hope we start sourcing it from other countries so be the price - when will the human population realize we can't live on this planet forever... If we are a superior race we must realize that colonizing other areas of space are necessary for our survival.
$150 million? That's nothing compared to public spending for bailouts. Seriously, that's even less than all the managers at AIG got in bonuses this year.
Can I just say how *great* it is to have this problem? Oh noes, the world is running out of weapons-grade plutonium!
As another poster pointed out, we can cannibalize deployed nuclear weapons if we need more for space exploration, but seriously, this is awesome. More plutonium in space = less plutonium down here.
[wavy lines, as we look into the crystal ball ...]
North Korea has threatened to carry out nuclear missile tests unless the UN Security Council apologises for its "unseemly snickering" at their recent rocket launch falling into the sea.
"The communications satellite was successfully launched and is fulfilling its mission, sending transmissions from Pacific Ocean life in deep space," a Pyongyang communique said today. "If the UN does not take back its grievous slanders, we will be forced to retaliate with the full force of our mighty nuclear arsenal. Our dad will beat up your dad too."
North Korea conducted its first and only nuclear test in 2006, described as "completely successful" and "revealing new dimensions in gunpowder science."
North Korea's foreign ministry also said "the UN should apologise for infringing our sovereignty, retract all its resolutions and decisions against us and stop being big meanies. It's so unfair!"
It also announced plans to build a light-water nuclear reactor, a domestic robot, a flying car and a "really cool thing we haven't finished drawing yet, but expect to have ready soon as our great nation continues to make tremendous advances in crayon science."
Dear Leader Kim Jong-Il announced a glorious 30% increase in industrial output and a 35% increase in food production as the cardboard ran out and the factories started shaping raw contaminated mud into loaves. South Korea sighed at the news and looked forward to a peace dividend similar to that reaped by Germany in 1990 when the North finally collapses and they have to clean up the mess.
http://rocknerd.co.uk
Solar power just doesn't work. When will people learn this...
Xaotik Designs
After the US won the Cold War, we agreed to buy their huge nuke stockpile that they agreed to give up. Then Bush Sr didn't buy it with the money (the Democratic) Congress put out. Then the Republican Congress that took over deleted the money so Clinton couldn't buy it.
Now the Russians have a nuke stockpile, and we don't even have enough plutonium to run a space program.
Nice work. Notice who prevented the proper processing of the most essential peace dividend.
--
make install -not war
Why not use wind power?
Pu-238 is hard to beat for this application
Pu-238 is used because it is relatively short-lived and is not easily fissile (low multiplication factor), and instead experiences relatively rapid Alpha decay.
Like most alpha decay, it generates heat as a decay byproduct. Unlike Pu-239, which has a half life of a little over 24,000 years, the Pu-238 half-life is a little under 90 years, which makes it a better thermal source for use in power generation (Pu-239 decays way to slowly to be used as an Alpha decay based heat source).
Trying to convert to something like Pu-239 from decommissioned nuclear weapons (for example) would require converting to using fission by-products instead, which would require shielding against the Beta decay and fast neutrons (Alpha particles can be shielded with nothing more than paraffin). This would add a lot of mass to the probe itself - both for shielding the sensitive components, and for carrying a large enough sub-critical mass of Pu-239 to induce spontaneous subcritical fission.
In fact, all in all, Pu-238 is one of only a few materials that could be used for this application.
-- Terry
$150 million? Is that all? Just use the bonuses you stole from AIG employees!
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I though they were supposed to find some in Iraq?
That's about 13.5M per pound. That price sounds kinda high. Heck I just lost 3 lbs last week, too bad is was mainly McDonald's weight (though I hear that stuff is kind of toxic... I digress). I'm sure the price will come down with ramped up production.
It is estimated it will cost at least $150 million to resume making the 11 pounds per year that is needed for space probes
And people moan about gas prices!
"I'm sure that in 1985 plutonium is available in every corner drug store, but in 1955 it's a little hard to come by."
This about Pu-238 for use in thermoelectric generators. Pu-239 does not produce enough heat.
Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
If we can send 35 billion to these banks every couple of weeks, we should damn well be able to afford $150 mill for some needed space probes. It's only the long term future of the continuing human instinct to explore our world and universe!
Keep passing the open windows...
Weapons do not contain Pu-238 which is what NASA needs for their thermoelectric generators. Pu-239, which is what is used in weapons, won't do.
Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
It'll take only one car accident bad enough to breach containment, it'll cook a lot of folks.
First rule of holes; When in one, stop digging.
I expected a cheap shot like this, so here's my answer:
The 'Propaganda' you refer to is generally about far-away places and events, and therefor any contrast with reality would not be apparent.
These people are being fed bullshit about the workings of their daily lives, and are required to participate in the lies or be hauled off to the gulag. There is a big difference between 'stoopid americans falling for propaganda about WMD/Iraq Lollerskates!!11Lol!' and Koreans believing or not believing the nonsense they're told, or participate in, each day, about matters that directly affect every waking moment.
Clear enough?
Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be the name of a store, not a government agency.
probes beyond Jupiter won't work because there isn't enough sunlight to use solar panels
Then just have the probes bring the sun with them...
My webcomic
Weapons contain Pu-239. NASA needs Pu-238.
> Or perhaps NASA could adapt their generators to use plutonium 239
Pu-239 won't work. It has much too long a half-life.
Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
If the CIA goes around with suitcase full of million dollars, it is a just a matter of time before they get their Pu-238. It is only a problem if they want to get it legally. Underground, it is just an issue of how much you are willing to pay.
Why nobody made any dark matter jokes yet? I am just not funny enough to do so.
I thought everything shot into space had to be protected from radio activity. I also thought everything that comes into contact with radio active material becomes radio active. Couldn't something be held outside of the shielding to be irradiated while using solar power then used as fuel on the outer reaches?
Having to work for a living is the root of all evil.
The simple fact is, that we NEED lots more fuel for the future. Better to get this started and get the experience BACK.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Thank you for offering yourself up as a perfect example of an American who has bought into US propaganda hook line and sinker.
Simply put, you were misinformed.
Any manned spacecraft needs to be protected from ionizing radiation, as do sensitive computer parts on unmanned ones. They are not, however, exposed to radioactive material.
Radioactive contamination, which is what you're thinking of, either results from neutron bombardment, or alternatively from radioactive material "rubbing off" on the now contaminated object. It's not an issue in space. It may or may not be an issue with nuclear bombs and reactors here on earth, depending on the material(s) in question.
Exposure to most forms of ionizing radiation does not cause the exposed object to become radioactive. Exposure to neutron radiation is another matter, but that particular variety doesn't occur in space.
Erotic is when you use a feather. Exotic is when you use the whole chicken.
I thought everything shot into space had to be protected from radio activity.
The only things that need protection from radiation on a space probe are semiconductor-based devices (e.g. CPUs and other electronics).
I also thought everything that comes into contact with radio active material becomes radio active.
That is only true if the radioactive source emits neutron radiation or high energy alpha radiation.
Those who would give up liberty to obtain working drivers, deserve neither liberty nor working drivers.
$151 million? Hell, just go find, I dunno, Branson or Gates or Paul Allen and ask nicely.
There's got to be some super rich geeks out there that would gladly help NASA out.
The want 11 pounds of it PER YEAR??
How many probes going out past Jupiter are they planning to launch in the next few years?
It'll take only one car accident bad enough to breach containment, it'll cook a lot of folks.
Well, SOMETHING has got to cause the population reduction!
It looks like their stocks are literally decaying away!
Bwahahahahahaha...ahaha...ha...ha..h
Yeah, I'll get my coat.
FGD 135
Do these actually bring in any revenue, or are you just horribly bored?
I clicked into this thinking that "low on fuel" was gonna be a clever euphemism for "lack of funding", but I was sorely disappointed!
Need plutonium you say?
Go to Moscow and find a strip joint named 'Glasnost'. Ask for Valentin. I got a nice warhead from him, 1960's vintage in the original crate. Only cost me a couple of cartons of smokes and a washing machine.
I wanted to get a surface-to-air missile as a graduation present for my little cousin (finally finished high school!), but the customs agent downed my bottle of Kentucky Bourbon before I could leave the terminal.
Knowing Google's lust for data collection, the Soviet Union is still alive and well inside the psyche of Sergey Brin....
He probably has a dilithium crystal or two and some antimatter lying around.
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
Tony Stark could probably build it in a cave. With a box of scraps!
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
It'd cost 150 Million? With an "M"?!? Not a "B" or a "T"? Well shit, was this article supposed to be about how ridiculously cheap it is? Hell, that's worth what... 20 minutes worth of the war on terrorism? Get this shit going while it's so damn inexpensive!
Planet Zebeth - Metroid with a twist
That the Guinness Book of World Records stated that Plutonium 238 was the most expensive stuff in the world.
I guess that's been superseded by Antimatter by now, but $150,000,000 for 11 pounds of the stuff? That works out to be $30,000 per gram! EEK.
How many escape pods are there? "NONE,SIR!" You counted them? "TWICE, SIR!"
Preferably of the colder variety, but those warmer ones work just as well too.
Wernher von Braun was building rockets for Hitler long before the USA-USSR space race.
Both sides went to space with the help on the back of his research - which was originally done in order to bomb London.
Hell... We might still be shaving ourselves with straight razors had not Gillette made that contract to supply US Army with safety razors during the WWI.
And we might still be using soap and a shaving brush to lather - had not the aerosol can been invented for army use during the WWII.
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
This, like the 2005 announcement that the US would resume Pu production at a cost of XXX millions or billions, is an attempt to pack the pork barrel by begging for money under false pretense. Pu production is unnecessary. Per the 2002 SORT treaty the US is reducing its stock of strategic warheads by over 2000 devices between 2004 and 2012, about half being dismantled. The weapons grade Pu in them is a different ratio of isotopes than reactor grade. Still, 1000 warheads worth would yield a large stockpile of Pu for space probe power production. The dismantling is already planned and funded, so no additional start-up funds are needed.
"I may be synthetic, but I'm not stupid." -- Bishop 341-B
As they said they were going to do for the non-proliferation treaty, they can take the Pu238 and give it to NASA.
With Pu239, bombard it with neutrons of the right energy (you DO have neutron sources, don't you, US?).
when you have no waste to convert.
..our future spacecraft are going to be powered by dilithium crystals, so why don't we just get on with mining the stuff?
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon
They have large nuclear programs. Perhaps they might want to get rid of some of this stuff if they have it.
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
NASA needs Pu-238. Weapons contain only Pu-239.
Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.