Slashdot Mirror
Tata Building $7,800 Apartments in Mumbai
theodp writes "What do you do for an encore after you've shown the world it's possible to build a $2,000 car? Ratan Tata, head of India's giant Tata conglomerate, now plans to build, 30 miles outside of Mumbai, 1,200 tiny apartments that will sell for $7,800 to $13,400 each. Sure, they're small (floor plans), but keep in mind that you can pay a quarter of a million bucks for a 250-sq.-ft. studio in the East Village. Time reports that Tata has had to beef up security to handle the rush of buyers who want to plunk down their $200 deposits (yes, that's two hundred dollars!). Who would've thought you could make IKEA homes look pricey?" The Businessweek.com article says that the apartments are aimed at someone making $6,000 to $10,000 per year (Time says $5,000). In Mumbai, a call center operator with 10 to 20 years of experience barely qualifies at $6,400 annually. 70% of the country's 1.2 billion people live on 1/20 as much.
Tata cars have proven themselves to be unsafe for driving (no protection, and the car frame is too thin)
i wouldn't be surprised if these buildings couldn't survive 45 mph winds
We don't want another Cortlandt Homes incident.
Reviewing just the first hour of video games.
For a second I read that as Dubai and was trying to fish out my credit card. Mumbai I could care less about.
The median price of a house in Detroit is $7500. Floorplans vary, but they are larger than these apartments. Home prices are relative.
I'm sure people are happy to buy a nice place in Mumbai, so the market supports higher prices. No one wants to live in a corrupt one-party third-world conflict zone like Detroit.
This is one the the wisest investments Tata has ever made, and will fill an important niche in Indian urban living.
The economic difference between the rich and the poor is so vast, that if you are making 10k+ a year you are very rich by a normal villager's perspective...the problem is unless you are living in a rural area, there are not many places for you to live unless you want to live other than the slums or in a wealthy neighborhood.
Of course this is just a generalization, but if you ever go to India, and truly experience it outside of the MNC bubble, you will see why something like this is needed.
-n00b
Anonymous Coward: kdawson sucks, he needs to be fired.
kdawson: I don't care!
Anonymous Coward: from a canon, into the sun.
kdawson: (gulp!)
if it's for purchase with no monthly rent (excluding HOA fees), then it's a condo.
but yea, considering the various disasters that have happened in India in regards to shotty construction and buildings collapsing... I'm afraid that those would live in them might as well as say "Ta ta" to life.
Tata Nanos are meant to be affordable upgrades for families that try to haul mom and dad and the kids and the groceries all on some little scooter. I doubt that is safer than the Nano.
Mod this up, it's not offtopic, its a meta comment that deserves to be seen and read.
Really, this story couldn't even be defined in any of slashdot's main topics, so its "news". Well, i just took a massive shit this morning, is kdawson going to post a front page story on that also?
I'm also wondering what kdawson's thoughts are on the housing bubble in the US, and where he thinks mortgage rates are heading in the future.
These apartments are extremely tiny at only 283 - 465 sq ft and for $7,800 - $13,400 that isn't really that cheap as it is around $28-29 per sq ft. The condo I own in Houston only cost me $43 per sq ft and they are now going for much cheaper than that after the economy meltdown.
70% of the country's 1.2 billion people live on 1/20 as much.
True, but not relevant.
This is aimed at the middle class in India, which numbers 50 - 100 million now and is expected to grow rapidly :
India's middle class is expected to swell almost 12-fold from its size of 50 million people to over 583 million - some 41% of the population.
Let's see, 10 million homes for $ 10K each is $ 100 billion USD - a market worth going after.
Shipping containers
I dunno. The ability to build mass housing for cheap is rather interesting. Why not take the plans, modify them slightly, and then have low-cost housing in North America? Habitats for Humanity would probably do quite well in this situation. There's more than just tech nerds out there, remember. There's also social sciences nerds.
Canada: The US's more awesome sibling.
If you think that prices going this low are gonna help anybody then you should reconsider. I mean employed workers in the West.
Sorry to sound snooty, but that's my gut reaction to the "this is unsafe!" comments. Unsafe by American/European standards, probably. Unsafe compared to Indian options? Ha.
Some photos of life in Delhi (a bit less "European" than Mumbai), including the inside of a couple homes, here. (Disclosure: that's a link to my old travel blog.)
We should praise improvement, not demand perfection.
Hey, I can still mount my 62-inch LCD TV on the ceiling above the bed, right? Turn it off and it doubles as a mirror, eh?
It is, its for our basement dwelling brothers. Lets them know they can own their own place for roughly a months worth of mountain dew and hotpockets. Afterall, seriously, what difference would it make to them where on the planet they're located? So long as they have good connectivity and drop shipments of food they could be happy in gitmo.
I'm confused by the terminology. Around here (southern USA) an apartment is something you rent. A Condominium is like an apartment in that it is on managed grounds but you can "buy" them. I say "buy" in quotes because the concept of buying half of a building attached to someone else's half does not sound like anything I would want to buy.
Anyway, what are they talking about?
A work that expires before its copyright never enters the public domain and thus enjoys eternal copyright protection.
the real question here is: what about the basments?
We'll throw in the crackhouse on the left ABSOLUTELY FREE!
Fuck systemd. Fuck Redhat. Fuck Soylent, too. Wait, scratch the last one.
It's symptomatic of the growing pains in an economy like India. Everyone flocks there and Indian companies do well from their cheap labour, but in order to maintain that labour the standard of living, and the cost, needs to rise.
I'm sure people are happy to buy a nice place in Mumbai, so the market supports higher prices. No one wants to live in a corrupt one-party third-world conflict zone like Detroit.
Perhaps the corruption favors them over there, and it favors you over where you are.
Mumbai by comparison, makes Detroit look clean.
Outside of Detroit, things are more in tune with reality with respect to prices.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
That'd be the polar opposite of the unstoppable force vs. the immovable object.
Insulation
Constitutional rights may be respected, repealed, or modified; but they must never be ignored.
The car passes cleanly through the building with no damage to either!
Now, you and everyone else will know why oil will average $150+ a barrel in ten years or so. You gotta keep 'em cool, heated, lighted, etc....
Coal? Yeah, baby! More CO2!
Nuclear or Solar? We can only hope.
In the mid 70s, I lived in a 200sf studio with a murphy bed. The toilet was in one small closet and the shower in another. The only sink was in the enameled steel kitchen unit. It was minimalist living, but I lived well there. Still, smaller than a lot of Hotel rooms at 16 x 12 for the combined kitchen, eating area, living area, bedroom. It would not have worked without the 'murphy'....
Hardly insightful.
To tear away your arguments:
industries that are less energy-efficient than those in developing countries
That's the wrong way around. The smoke, soot, toxins and such lead to Third World countries.
overcrowded apartments that cost more than houses;
Again, the wrong way around. That's what you'll find in developing countries, w/ the requisite Third World/Far East shortcuts.
doctors and prescription drugs that routinely cause more harm than good
This is another one completely on India and such, the home of various knockoff drugs.
Giant cars that get horrid gas mileage
That's just a preference for not going "Al Gore" and not being left wanting at the gas pedal. Taking those cars from the masses is an issue of overly powered environmental activists. That is, the types who buy offsets to fly into the mecca of lifestyle environmentalism- Aspen, Colorado, USA.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
Louis Vuitton bags for $20? Apple stuff for less than an arm and a leg ? what *is* the world coming to ? sigh.
A collapsed building with a crushed car and its occupants inside.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
. . . Ratan Tata will soon be known as the William Levitt of India: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Levitt. Maybe he thought up that idea during his Harvard days.
He is making money for himself, but he seems to be doing a lot of good for people, as well.
The world could do with a couple more of him.
I looked at the floor plans, and thought that it would be a great place to buy for vacations.
But, alas, the 3-D animation was slashdotted. So other Slashdotters seem to be thinking the same thing. And I certainly do not want to be living next to Slashdotters. All that noise from "vi or emacs" arguments next door, and the Slashdot residents would be permantly wigged out at living above ground, as opposed to in their parents' basements.
Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
Just make them 2 floors, 2nd floor is the main floor (stairs up to it) and the 1st floor has no windows.
Fake basements FTW
re:ever been to India? (Score:-1, Flamebait)
If you dont mind the building being built entirely of "safety shortcuts" and existing two steps from collapse, fine.
Not if said "improvement" comes at the cost of the developed world, with no thought of transition.
Nothing bad there. Building codes exist for a reason, and that the Third World is hardly a place you'll find them.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
Wow, only a little smaller than a shipping container, and just 6 times the price!
Seriously, at $30 a square foot, while these apartments might be a good deal, they're hardly newsworthy.
Tiny? They're bigger than my place, you insensitive clod! Ah...the joys of grad school...
Res publica non dominetur
Just as something cheap and elements tight to start out with, they are fine, no different from a camping trailer except no axles and wheels. The planet is awash in those things now, especially north america. Like the others said, add insulation and white reflective paint to the roof (we use that here on the broiler houses, brand name polar guard), and so on, and perhaps site it in shade.
We live in a tinroof cabin in Georgia, where it gets plenty hot, without AC. The reason we can do that, is because it sits in shade. Being oaks, the leaves drop in the winter when it is colder and it sits in mostly sun then, and we use wood for heat off the property primarily. Both ways of dealing with temp extremes work, and are a lot more affordable than the alternatives, and we stay comfy. Back to the containers, you can also construct a free standing roof with around a two foot clearance over them to act as man made shade. I've seen that a lot in RV parks, not only makes it cooler, but it protects from hail damage or snow accumulation damage or rain leaks. And speaking of which, we lived in our RV, which is smaller than a shipping container, for four years before we moved here, so I'll call that similar to your office experience. It was comfortable enough, it had insulation and so on. I actually liked it, forced you to make decisions on what is really necessary or not. Saved a bunch really. Paid a grand even for a "home", that not only is adequate shelter, but is self contained with a generator and onboard water tanks and so on, plus I added solar PV and a battery bank to it. That's another alternative cheap housing today, well, in areas where RVs are common anyway. And if you ever need to move from job relocation, there ya go, makes it ewasier.
The bottom line is, there are practical ways to avoid the 30 year mortgage and the going into tremendous debt with zero job security anymore just to have a place to live, no matter where you are. I think it is a fine idea what Tata is doing, trying to make things affordable for their own people there, plus still make a buck at it. Seems a win/win for everyone concerned. Right now we are going through a lot of economic bullshit in the US because everybody and their cousin decided they needed a bloated energy hog mac mansion at a matching huge bloated price, insatead of actually looking at things more realistically and "making do" with something smaller and cheaper and more affordable in shaky economic times. Seems to be near epic fail at this point with the "supersize" everything reality we acquired as a society, combined with losing sight of the difference between what your home should be and some random house you are occupying and treating as a get rich quick "investment".
I say "buy" in quotes because the concept of buying half of a building attached to someone else's half does not sound like anything I would want to buy.
No. Really...
I'm not trying to troll or even make fun of, but your post above is truly funny to someone who has lived most of his life in a flat (or apartment as Americans call it).
Particularly considering the housing market crisis and its influence on the global financial crisis.
I mean... understanding that you can buy/own one set of rooms for your stuff but not the other...
I'm also a bit stumped with such a logical barrier.
Perfectly understanding owning a building and living in it, renting a part of a building and living in it - but not owning a part of a building and living in it?
I'm trying to come up with a way to compare such housing to some other set of living quarters such as a hotel, dorm, retirement home or even a prison but I fear I will only bump into "something you rent" logic barrier.
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
When you live in a multifamily building it is inevitable that one of your neighbors will be careless and set their place on fire. (It happened year seven at the place I've lived for the past nine years.) The more people there are around you, the more likely the place is to go up in flames. The largest of these apartments is about the size of a normal hotel room. So there are going to be a LOT of people around you. Will there be enough exits? Will there be proper fire barriers between the units and between the floors? Sprinklers?
I used to drive a fiat 850 spider. Dang *smaller* than a Nano and what a fun little car, wish I still had it. Medium zippy and got 50 MPG! I rebuilt the engine and transaxle and it was just swell. Worked fine as a commuter and although it wasn't a real hotrod, being a little bitty convertible it was a babe magnet, they'd go "cute"!! heh,. fringe benefits ;)
I, for one, love hearing about cheap, tiny housing. All of my friends from high school (yes, all of them, not just the guys) went to uni to do engineering. There's going to be a massive engineering glut, worse than the IT skills glut way back when. Engineers are going to be working for a tenth of a pittance a day at this rate, and small, cheap accommodation is wonderful news.
The only thing wrong with these units is there's no obvious place for a computer desk...
Admit it. You post strawman arguments as AC so you get modded Insightful for refuting them, rather than Troll
Hardly insightful.
To tear away your arguments:
industries that are less energy-efficient than those in developing countries
That's the wrong way around. The smoke, soot, toxins and such lead to Third World countries.
overcrowded apartments that cost more than houses;
Again, the wrong way around. That's what you'll find in developing countries, w/ the requisite Third World/Far East shortcuts.
doctors and prescription drugs that routinely cause more harm than good
This is another one completely on India and such, the home of various knockoff drugs.
Giant cars that get horrid gas mileage
That's just a preference for not going "Al Gore" and not being left wanting at the gas pedal. Taking those cars from the masses is an issue of overly powered environmental activists. That is, the types who buy offsets to fly into the mecca of lifestyle environmentalism- Aspen, Colorado, USA.
That's just a few holes in the parent poster's argument.
The arguments being made against Third World countries are ones that describe those countries.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
Tata is NOT saving costs by compromising on materials. So how are they saving costs? They're going in for cheaper land that's farther out from the city, and they're paying below market price for it, because they're offering the landholders an amortized profit-sharing across many years. They're then organizing a large number of builders to create entire communities from scratch, including hospitals, schools, marketplaces, and a variety of amenities where there were none before. They're building entire townships, and not just some homes. This is obviously a very capital-intensive approach. Call it the Las Vegas strategy: buying land in the middle of nowhere at low cost, and then building an entire self-supporting community there.
Holy crap, a bunch of poor people crammed together in tiny ass apartments in a shitty locale?
In america we call them housing projects.
The "project" was an abject failure by all accounts.
I'm pretty sure this will turn into a seedy ghetto in india as well. What do they call crack there, khat?
music lover since 1969
In India, people who earn $5000/yr are not ghetto, they're lower-income lower middle class. They're not on welfare (there is no welfare), they're employed.
"Why not take the plans, modify them slightly, and then have low-cost housing in North America?"
I take you have never been involved in the zoning approval process for a low income housing project in the US. If you had been you would learn how much hysteria can be generated by the thought that the value of a middle class American's house could be dented by the presence of a less expensive alternative.
In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
In North Providence, RI was about the size of the RK 1. Not terribly small for one person or even a couple. Now I'm in a 900sqft place. Two rooms that we really don't use much but full kitchen, dining and living rooms.
I did not understand the reference about the studio in east village, because I live in Paris (proper) where real estate may be about twice as expensive.
At least it's not Detroit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZzgAjjuqZM
Platform advocacy is like choosing a favorite severely developmentally disabled child.
I'll take 2 and a tata nano car.
If you look at the floor plans for the Water Closet ("bathroom" to you Americans), it's an "Indian toilet." Bear in mind that this is the norm in most of Asia, but it's pretty much a porcelain hole in the floor.
Notice however, that these apartments do not come equipped with western style toilets. Instead they have "long drops" (ie: squatting holes).
I guess you get what you pay for...
------ The best brain training is now totally free : )
Tata's goal is quite laudable, especially because housing should be affordable. Unfortunately, Americans have lost sight of this. The Indians are showing how it is not necessary to have these large, lavish, and expensive homes. Nor is it necessary to charge huge sums of money for a home. I remember seeing a special on TV once about someone taking disused shipping containers and turning them into really beautiful, small homes. Americans certainly have the resources to do this and potentially lead the world in economic, efficient living. But, we choose not and equate social status with the size of our homes. Also our home builders advertise lavish homes to feed this frenzy. Hey, I am guilty of this too as I look on sometimes with envy of those that can have lavish, large homes. But then, practical thinking comes into play and I really like my 1570 sq foot home which is still large for one person. I would be all for having a nice sub 1000 sq foot home that was well designed and efficient. Quality, mass fabricated homes are making a comback. Sears Roebuck did this 100 or so years ago with lots of success ......... I'd love to see this return. Affordable housing should be measured in ability to own, not rent.
Unfortunately, that attitude is what creates many of the problems of LI housing. If a small (relatively) number of subsidized housing units are incorporated into each individual location, things are just peachy. However, when you attempt to put a large amount of subsidized housing in one location (the projects) then all of the stereotypical problems arise. Since this is what cause the stereotypes, not the properly done ones, fewer communities are willing to accept subsidized housing, and large amounts of it are mashed into communities that are willing to accept it, then the typical problems occur, then the stereotypes are perpetuated.
One of my cult favorites is the movie The Fifth Element. There are several great scenes in the tiny, but ingeniously-design "maximized space" apartment that the hero Corbin Dallas lives in.
The fridge descended into the floor and revealed a shower stall. The bed worked as a previous poster noted in a English flat, half-way out==couc, all-the-way-out==bed. Everything was stored in wall spaces.
I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
Comment removed based on user account deletion
not to split hairs and all...but Avenue B is Alphabet city, not the East Village.
dreemkill.
The trouble is the subisdy itself, because you end up with the government telling people where to live, huge numbers of low-income people who get further disadvantaged because they end up on waiting lists, screwed up development patterns because investors have no incentive when rent controls exist, and other miscellaneous unnecessary problems.
And of course, the reason all that happens in the first place is that the apartments that get built are too big! If 400 ft^2 apartments were ever built around here then low-income people could afford them at market rates and everything would be fine, but they're not allowed to exist because of the damn zoning laws!
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
What's really wrong with them is that nstead of subdividing them into a bunch of tiny, useless rooms, they need to just make them studios. Then you'd be able to put a desk in them if you wanted, instead of having the space taken up by a wall or hallway.
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
One can buy an RV with twin slideouts on each side, with equal features, for 1/100th of that price? And equal footage.
Just because you can mod me down, doesn't mean you're right. Shoes for industry!
They should use shipping containers - even cheaper? Check some of these out - www.container-life.com
Ten years ago a 3 bed-rooms apartment, 77 sq meters, in Bucharest, Europe (not 30 miles away) was $16.000. Now it is $160.000 The same will be there. Who will have $$$$ will buy a part of the apartments, the new residence area will become interesting and... the prices will rise. This is not a car and TATA cannot control the prices.
congratulations, you have created a new word
There's something on the internet called "Google" - it's a "search engine" and lets you find out about other places in the world that are different from the southern states of the USA. It might come as a big shock but in other places they use different words from you, and sometimes use the same words for different things.
The price is too good to be true, and this stuff is most likely a propaganda. Even with the Nano there has been overbooking and rationing of the car. Remember that the average income in India is not even comparable to average income of any country in the western hemisphere. The city where I live in a 3 bedroom apartment costs around 3.5 million rupees and a two bedroom apartment costs 2.5 to 2.8 million rupees. Thats a lot of money, the average middle class in India finds buying (owning) a house to be the biggest accomplishment in their lives, this is also one of the prime reasons that children stay with their parents and do not move out. I am in a decent job and for me to buy a house (2 bedroom apartment) I would have to take a loan that I would be paying for atleast 15 years. That pretty much sums it up, let the patriots rise and defend their country as being born is a particular country is a great accomplishment by itself. Frequest Power breaks 3-4 hours of water supply at best (or 24 hours of bore-well water supply) these living standards are pathetic.
No Black or White only shades of Gray
Nah, some subsidy is a good thing. What I'm talking about is a about 10-20% of an apartment-style building being reserved for Section 8 or the like, not rent control. I'm not sure what the zoning laws are like around here, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn that these economy apartments would not be kosher. Around here, we used to have a decent amount of cheap, non-subsidized single-occupant housing. Granted it was concentrated in slummish area around skid row, but it was better than nothing. A few decades ago they demolished all of that housing because of the reputation that area had gained, and now we have a serious homeless population. Go go genius city planners!
Basically, the first tier of folks who took American jobs.
Fact, not invective.
Modding me down won't change it.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
India must be very expensive, in other developing countries that's normal price for the conditions they are offering!
Stop making publicity of this fake 'innovations', it only helps other scammers to sell their crap.
As a design project many years ago, I had designed flats based on a 12x12x12 cube (about 132 square foot, net, each); with functional kitchen, front-loading washer/dryer, seating area ("living/dining"), full bath (3/4, no tub), lofted sleeping space and a surprising amount of storage for the amount of floor space.
My wife and I live in a one-bedroom, 480 square foot mobile home with a 200 square foot add-on room we use as office space.
The trailer itself is a 1960 Vagabond "10-wide," well-known in its day for being better-insulated than most stick-built houses of that era. We've added even more insulation, to the point where even with a stack of computers, a flat-top electric stove, and a 42" LCD TV, plus electric heat and three (admittedly very high SEER) window air conditioning units, our peak electric bills are still under $100 per month.
We paid $18,000 for the trailer and lot, then spent another $12,000 on remodeling and appliances. Our homeowners association fee, which includes water, sewer, and community amenities including a clubhouse and swimming pool, is $105 per month. Add property taxes, insurance, County trash collection fees, and cable/phone/internet service, and we are at just over $400 per month, total.
Big? No. Nice? You bet. The bedroom is smaller than my wife would prefer, but on the other hand we have more closet space than most of the larger places we've lived in over the years. Plus we have a nice patio for outdoor BBQ cooking and eating, plenty of shed-type storage, enough yard to make our 50-pound dog happy, and a separate little fenced space where we store our bikes, lawn mower, and kayak, along with my tools, spare lumber, paint, and other "stuff."
We have room for up to four guests to stay overnight, all on foldout furniture. And much of the year we can feed them fresh orange juice from our own tree, too.
We've lived in three to four times as much space, but haven't ever really lived *better* than we do now.
>Huh? Most of the world lives in (and owns) such dwellings (flats, townhouses, any other
>medium or high density houses in which one or more walls/floors/ceilings are shared with
>another dwelling). The big, separate houses you see in American suburbia are NOT the norm for
>many countries.
I just don't care for it, personally. I don't want to own something that is physically attached to something that someone else owns. What if they burn their house down? I'm sure there is a firewall between the two buildings, but is that much comfort to realize that half the building you live in is charred wreckage?
So when I buy a house, I buy the whole building, with land all around it on all 4 sides. Thus everything on the property is mine and under my control.
If I was going to share a building with other people, I'd just rent an apartment (which I have done).
A work that expires before its copyright never enters the public domain and thus enjoys eternal copyright protection.
But even that -- which I did address, by the way -- creates problems. Namely, Section 8 invariably only accomodates a small fraction of the need; there are routinely waiting lists months or years long. And it allows apartment owners to build higher-end units than they otherwise would, screwing over people (like me) who would prefer to live more modestly (i.e., cheaply) but who do not qualify for assistance.
I think you actually agree with me, and just don't relize it. Consider this: if Section 8 worked, why do you have that homeless problem?
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
A developer built a building in Seattle a few years ago with some 300 sq ft units. They sold for about $125k. Maybe we could get TATA to come over here and do a development!
Why would you need to earn $10K to purchase a $7-13K apartment? If I earned $10K, I could purchase a $30K apartment, if any such thing existed.