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Sun To Build World's Biggest App Store Around Java
CWmike writes "Sun Micro plans to launch an App Store that could make Apple's look smaller than a 7-Eleven by comparison, CEO Jonathan Schwartz wrote on his blog this week. Schwartz indicated the Java App Store, code-named Project Vector, will focus on PC users and estimated the size of the community at 1 billion. Sun plans to allow Java application developers to submit programs to a simple Web site so the company can evaluate them for safety and content before presenting them to the Java audience. Sun will charge for distribution. The company will reveal more details at its JavaOne conference, which opens June 2 in San Francisco, Schwartz said."
I was going to write a first post, but I got bought-out by Oracle before I could finish it.
Would you like an Oracle database with that?
...so I could suffer the meta-frustration of waiting for a Java applet to load so I could then buy some Java applets and wait for them to load.
Village idiot in some extremely smart villages.
This could be a software repository for all PC's.
Go memory-hungry!
Quick way to get 30% Funny 70% Troll: defend Opera browser on
I'm pretty sure most app stores are founded on java already.
The problem with this idea, is that PC users already have an App Store... It's called the Internet. Or Walmart.
Seriously, there's no incentive to use their Java App Store on an open system (home computer) which is very much unlike with the iPhone, where you have to use it in order to get apps.
It'll crash every other browser at random times with strange exception errors, will take 10 minutes to load a page, I'm just so for it..
-=[ place
I'm taking bets... what's going to be slower, Sun's Java App Store or Adobe's Marketplace?
The only upside is I'll go outside and get a life while waiting for a craptastic widget to download.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I think this is a great idea, but it raises a lot of questions. Like... if it takes Apple a week to make sure a calculator app is safe enough for the iPhone, how is Sun going to review desktop-size apps in any reasonable amount of time?
One thing about the iphone, love it or hate it, is that the apps on it all use the same constrained user interface, and thus many of the same ui widgets and conventions.
This, for users, makes Apple app store apps EASY TO USE.
Also, each one is resource constrained, and ui constrained, so it is SINGLE PURPOSE, making it trivial to explain and no fuss to use.
People can get started using their app easily and are seldom disappointed, and NEVER confused in their attempt to use the app. It just works.
And it costs from 0 to $5 bucks (vast majority).
The above are REQUIREMENTS for a mass consumer software distribution infrastructure.
I hope sun doesn't screw up by allowing freedom to put whatever the heck program you want on there, following whatever ui conventions you want, and with 100 buttons each.
EPIC FAIL if so.
Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
1. Probably the largest developer base short of Javascript.
2. Unemployment is through the roof.
3. Corporations looking for ways to cut costs.
4. Open Source hackers continue their enjoyment of food and shelter.
5. Oracle got Sun for pennies.
If this was your idea, Mr. Ellison, take another sailboat out of petty cash. You've earned it.
Stop-Prism.org: Opt Out of Surveillance
If they have an automated system to check code security, and for non-hidden functionality, they could avoid a lot of the drama that has surrounded the Apple Store. Also, this could be a very good place for indy developers to put their work. The old idea that Java is "slow" is still funny, not really that relevant any more, I'd personally rather have good solid cross platform support if its "slightly" slower than native C,etc. i use Pidgin because on every platform it looks about the same and works the same, and works well.
Didn't Sun already try this in 2003 when they launched java.com?
Today it is nothing but a PR site, but in 2003 they were actively trying to sell 3rd party Java apps..... and failed.
Still-born hype for JavaFX, Sun's shiny new device agnostic platform.
As we've seen with the recent article about JRE security on OS X, users are generally reluctant to run client-side Java. Swing hasn't managed much traction, with desktop consumers overwhelmingly preferring native apps. Somehow a new JavaFX facade over JNLP/Applets and an App Store will change this?
Phones may be a different story but I suspect any JavaFX adoption would be significantly trail iPhone and Android in terms of relevance. Perhaps 3 years too late.
What would Larry do if he were running Sun? :-)
Why do they need to review it? Can't they enforce a safe subset and give the user graded security options.. I kinda remember that being the point of the Java sandbox.
Apps that are only allowed to read/write to restricted local storage and can only access files that the user specifically selected with an Open/Save File Dialog sounds plenty secure to me. Some similar restrictions for socket access.
How we know is more important than what we know.
Run everywhere?
Run the same program exactly the same way on your phone, computer, PDA, email account, etc?
Naw Sun isn't that smart...
No, seriously, who cares?
Sun plans to allow Java application developers to submit programs to a simple Web site so the company can evaluate them for safety and content before presenting them to the Java audience. Sun will charge for distribution.
This model is meaningful for Joe Sixpack audience, which does need that click-click-click-bought, installed & running approach. But how many Java apps for that market you know? It's all desktop ones, remember, and Swing still looks and feels horrible on any desktop, from Windows to X to Mac. We're in double digits for the total usable app count, at best...
Server apps and development utilities/libraries? Java ecosystem there is OSS-centric a long time ago, and you aren't going to scare a Java developer with .tar.gz files, regardless of the platform - they have to learn to deal with that stuff for the most basic tools, starting from Ant/Maven, and for most handy frameworks, too. Then, of course, OSS guys aren't going to use a paid distribution service anyway.
In fact, Schwartz seems to recognize that no-one needs this for Java, and so:
This creates opportunity for everyone in the developer community - and specifically, for any developer (even those not using Java/JavaFX) seeking to reach beyond the browser to create a durable relationship with their customers
Oh, great. So it's another Sun product with "Java" in name which has nothing whatsoever to do with Java, except that your next Java update will run an installer with "Install Java App Store client" checkbox set by default. Sounds familiar? Don't they ever learn?
Schwartz goes on to boast Java market penetration, careful to mention " billions of ... mobile devices, and smartcards, millions of enterprise servers, set top boxes, Blu-Ray DVD players" - all of which, of course, having no relevance to the subject being discussed. But he has to, because if you look at figures for the desktop, it suddenly doesn't look so impressive. Frankly, I'd suspect that Google has a higher percentage of Toolbar & Search installs then desktop Java on Windows today. Not to mention Microsoft, if it decides to jump on the bandwagon... imagine an application store with Windows Update integration for purchased applications.
I take everything Sun says these days with 10 grains of salt. They still have some great products but they are not without their problems. They talk everything up big and have grandiose plans that have sometimes proven to be vaporware.
I was at a Sun Developer Day earlier this week. In a room full of 600+ people they took a show of hands about who was using JavaFX (almost no one) and MySQL (10%). They then proceeded to do 1.5 hour long in depth sessions on each. Then look at VirtualBox. Awesome software, and improving more quickly than VMWare - lighter weight too. Yet they insist that no one wants Parallel port virtual devices even though people are clamouring for it.
Oh well, Sun will fade into Oracle in the near future...
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
MS could do this with silverlight. Adobe withe Flex or Air...it just won't work. It works for the IPhone because Apple has a monopoly on the application. Sure you could hack on an application, but most users just won't.
The PC doesn't have a central source of applications. There is the web, downloads.com, individual authors, etc. etc.
What couldn't be delivered in a browser via Ajax, Silverlight, AIR/Flex that this could possibly do?
Furthermore mobile platforms have nice little niche applications. I would like a google desktop app versus using google maps..it'd be nice it if was built into Windows, Linux, Mac.
What I'd rather see is MS, Apple, and the Linux community create a decent plugin infrastrute for the OS and have an easy to use "Find extensions" program. Imagine if the search in Vista's start menu could accept an address and pop to google maps via a native app. I'd like to see the usability of mobile apps ported to the desktop.
One thing about the iphone, love it or hate it, is that the apps on it all use the same constrained user interface, and thus many of the same ui widgets and conventions.
Have you SEEN a good sampling of iPhone apps?
While there are some conventions around things like pinching, the UI is anything but constrained and app UI's are all over the map, very few apps use the standard widgets for example without at least some tweaking or changes. I mean this in a good way, because the wide variety of ways to input or manipulate leads to some great finds.
The only constants in the app store are the inputs for an app, not how an app might use them... people crave variety, and on that front a store that can succeed really engages people to discover different things.
Now the ironic thing is your summary was right on target - less is more. The most successful apps have focused very narrowly and done a great job in refining the UI for that task. To the degree that is possible in Java (and it very much is) the store could succeed.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Schwartz kept mentioning JavaFX, so this in theory does mean phones too.
While Swing is a desktop platform requiring a full Java SE, JavaFX is supposed to target different devices. Now it so happens that the desktop implementation of JavaFX runs as an abstraction over Java2D and the AWT but this needn't be the case. Today's OMAP3 smart phone is plenty powerful enough for many small screen desktop Java SE apps, RAM excepted. (you wouldn't run eclipse on it!)
So while Swing and SWT may have too much 'bloat', the idea is to create a movement around JavaFX that has a smaller footprint so that they'll try to sell JavaFX applications that run identically on a desktop and a phone.
I like Java. I do a lot of work in Java. I even ship an application written in Java that is installed on thousands of desktops worldwide. So, you can probably count me as a Java fan boi but I gotta ask:
Why the hell is it that after 14 years of Java we still can't get a Java app that looks and feels like a native app on Windows or Linux or even Solaris for god's sake. Why does anyone trying to ship a Java app either have to make the user jump through hoops installing JRE's and JDK's and other nonsense or has to code up special installers and .exe's to launch the JVM?
I ship an app on the Mac written in Java. Despite Apple's current pull back on their Java support, at least a Java app gets packaged up the same way as a native app and the Java runtime is installed as part of the OS.
Now, I understand that Sun has no control over Windows, but could we at least define a standard location for the JRE? Could we have a standard Java launcher that doesn't involve command line goo?
And as for Solaris - you still have to launch Java apps by running "java" from the shell or inside a script. Bourne shell scripts have been executables for 30 years, why the hell can't Java apps be executables as well? Solaris is Sun's OS. Java should shine and be the recommended language for everything.
And don't even get me started on "Java Web Start". Half the browsers leave little .jnlp turds all over your download folder or desktop.
Sun has simply fallen down with Java as a desktop platform. It's hard to deliver apps written in Java to customers, period. Swing is *still* ugly - and that's comparing it up against Windows UI's.
And there's still not a decent GUI builder for Swing. The NeXTStep GUI builder in 1997 worked better than Netbeans does today. Every time I add a component things it's a 50-50 chance that my whole layout will be destroyed as Netbeans moves things around randomly.
Sun, you have just failed so badly at making Java a viable desktop language. Maybe Oracle can clean up your mess but I doubt it.
[snore.]
...Microsoft announces an app store built on .Net applications and plan on making it as Mono friendly as possible. (pretend they didn't already announce this for windows mobile)
One year from now...
- Sun announces closure of app store. Notable achievement: 6 popular apps
- Microsoft announces wildfire success.
Note: They also announce the rollout of their 3rd DRM scheme in hopes of ending the massive piracy rates on apps coming from the store.
- Nobody would know what RTFA meant if it didn't need to be said all the time
Ollie Air in an SUV would be pretty impressive, but I've yet to see anyone try it.
"The Adobe Updater must update itself before it can check for updates. Would you like to update the Adobe Updater now?"
Java was brand 10 yrs ago, not anymore, today brand is Flash and PDF. Most people see Java as hurdle.
Only hard-core Java developers and users would care about this, and there's not billion of them.
Additionally, number of people who know how to (properly) use Swing in order to make user applications is very small. Number of people who use Java FX is even smaller.
Good luck to Sun, but if they have done this 10 yrs ago they would have great momentum now, and now they got nothing.
This just reeks of desperation, to me. Five years ago I might have thought this a good idea, but damn if this just doesn't look like copying for copying's sake. There's already been some discussion of this around other sites, but here's a few issues off the top of my head:
* Consistency. Apple controls the hardware and software platforms, and will even now limit apps to certain platform versions (all new apps must be iPhone OS 3.0). Given that there's not a lot of consistency between various platforms that run "Java" (a cellphone, TV and a desktop, for example), this will end up being a logistical nightmare for Sun's QA/testing (assuming they do that) and a UI nightmare for people using the store.
* Limitedness. Sun likes to claim billions of Java 'installations' because of JavaME on cell phones. By and large, those aren't upgradeable. Additionally, many of the likely millions of desktops running Java aren't going to be candidates for upgrading or installing apps on due to Nor are many of the millions of desktops running Java in corporate environments. This seems to leave primarily the consumer/individusl and 'small business' market, which is what Apple targets for iPhone stuff. But even there, Apple's only focusing on an 'app store' for one piece of hardware, not an entire ecosystem.
Likely more details will emerge in the next few weeks, but this just feels like a JavaFX announcement - a copycat 'me too' announcement which is designed to get attention but ultimately won't go anywhere fast in the next year or so.
If it was limited to *only* work for Windows XP/Vista machines, for example, or just a new breed of televisions with embedded Java, I'd actually think it'd have a much more reasonable chance of success, especially as a first iteration of an 'app store'. But somehow I see Sun attempting to cover a much larger segment of the Java world right out of the gate, and I don't see that working.
creation science book
No, seriously, who cares?
Independent application writers. They perk up a great deal any time a means of widespread distribution arises that can make what they do easier.
That includes all the G1 developers who have a new and deeper understanding of Java and might be looking for a wider market to apply it to... the GUI frameworks are not the same but lots of people stop at the language barriers.
This model is meaningful for Joe Sixpack audience, which does need that click-click-click-bought, installed & running approach. But how many Java apps for that market you know?
Probably no more than a few billion different apps. Of course, I'm probably underestimating. Look at the size of the iPhone app store. Not there but growing towards it.
It's all desktop ones, remember, and Swing still looks and feels horrible on any desktop, from Windows to X to Mac.
Thus, JavaFX. Or you can probably use Swing if you like, with some care it works fine. Look at the hideous VBA stuff people have bought in the past for lots of money when it met a need.
We're in double digits for the total usable app count, at best...
Prediction for "shutdown" locked in at "a few dozen". That's going to be amusing in a year.
Oh, great. So it's another Sun product with "Java" in name which has nothing whatsoever to do with Java, except that your next Java update will run an installer with "Install Java App Store client" checkbox set by default. Sounds familiar?
Why Yes. Yes it does.
billions of ... mobile devices, and smartcards, millions of enterprise servers, set top boxes, Blu-Ray DVD players" - all of which, of course, having no relevance to the subject being discussed.
Please tell me you are joking and not truly that dense. Every blu-ray player for example has a perfectly fine Java engine that could connect to and run items from this store...
Not to mention Microsoft, if it decides to jump on the bandwagon...
But since they are far from platform neutral in anything they do, what could they do? Steam is beating the pants off them, if they can't fight of Steam, well then.
The day to do anything but laugh loudly when the thought of Microsoft competing against a well thought out plan are long since gone. Microsoft is simply too monolithic to react in timely ways despite however many smart people they set to working at cross purposes. I suppose they might corner the online app store market for Surface, how big is THAT?
The reason it can work is the reason the App Store worked, lots of small specialized potentially well written apps that can gain enough of a hold that people come there for more apps. Who would go to a physical store for software if they could buy something more specialized for less that did what they wanted? And app writers get the boon of not caring if people are switching to the Mac or not.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
As we've seen with the recent article about JRE security on OS X, users are generally reluctant to run client-side Java.
Eclipse alone shows just how wrong you are - if there were not also apps like Limewire as an example.
Normal users don't even know what the hell the JRE is, nor do they care how secure it is at any moment. Give them an installer and care not at all what the app they are about to use is written in.
Swing hasn't managed much traction, with desktop consumers overwhelmingly preferring native apps.
Incorrect. DEVELOPERS have preferred writing native apps. But what if suddenly a lot of useful small utilities appear here, and more and more people start using the app store - people didn't get in on the iPhone app store at first either but when enough people get involved the network effect becomes a powerful force indeed.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
MS could do this with silverlight. Adobe withe Flex or Air...
Any of them COULD do it. But how many ARE?
Microsoft is out because they are too slow and never intended Silverlight to kill native Windows apps, only Flash.
Adobe wants to run all apps from the web, they don't care as much about local apps.
By the time a PC App Store equivalent starts working it's too late to compete against it. The network effect draws in more and more people... The App Store works, because so many people are using it that it draws in many other applications and thus more people.
But as you say, it doesn't even have to be a highlander "there can be only one" situation - there could be a few very large and well used app stores. Since Java is in a perfect place to take advantage of platform trends, I'd say they are in a damn good position to carry this off.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I reckon the thing I miss the most when looking for good applications on Windows (and to some extent OSX) is package management. This method of distribution including central update management and the use of key signing to ensure software hasn't been tampered with is priceless.
The advantage I can see in this java distribution is the ability to search one location for software, just like you do with a package manager like apt (on Debian, Ubuntu etc.). Another is that it is cross platform! Maybe this will lead people to pay just a little for OOo and to realise that it is fine for most peoples' needs.
I say good on them. Especially if it is cross platform. But I also reckon that if it is possible, there should be an open source model created too. This way I could install apt-osx or apt-win and have a nice gui to acquire all the latest and greatest open source software from one source.
I am totally sick of port on the mac and hunting for shitty shareware on win*.
like phosphorescent desert buttons singing one familiar song
"Go powerful. Go elegant. GO JAVA!"
Man, that's got to be the funniest sig out there...
Oh, you meant it seriously?
Oh damn, man, I'm sorry. I really am.
"Piter, too, is dead."
Even now with the G1 on the rise, people still think of Java in terms that were more valid in 1999 than today.
As you say a cross platform app store that makes it easy for indy developers to sell games and small utilities - that could do pretty well. Especially for casual games.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
The problem with sun is that their policies and buisness plan has gone any which way the wind blows, and against the wind for so many years no one trust them.
I learned java years back, even though I am not Java programmer, and walked away from it. I went back to try and use it some time later, and most of what I thought learned in useless now because sun has been messing with it in so many ways that it is just not worth bothering with. I can not trust the technology. It is flaky, because the company is flaky.
By comparison, my C and C++ and other languages make sense still. Yea, there are new coding standards, libraries, and so on but the fundamentals still work even many years later.
Sun did the same thing with their user level apps. When I make a decision for enterprise level technology implementation for the long term, Sun is one of the last companies that come to mind because of their track record with changing course so radically.
I hope Oracle sorts it out, or at least puts that dog out of all of our misery with both barrels and picks the corpse clean for the useful bits.
That is exactly the problem with sun. They do have useful bits, but nothing coherent from lack of leadership. Being bought out was the best thing that could have happened to save the useful technology they did produce.
Living in Chile
If having an open system was suffucient, then yum, apt, portage, and similar tools for *nix would be non-starters. I would argue that there doesn't exist a more 'open' environment than the free UNIX movement. Yet nobody wants to go back to the old ways of downloading tarballs and hunting deps.
People want to get to their apps easily, they want to have confidence that the apps won't hork their systems, etc. I avoid packages that aren't in one of a few repos just because of the hassle of updates, etc.
This isn't just a good idea, it's one that Sun shoulda done years ago and if they do it right, we'll all be talking about how Larry pulled the rug out from under MS in a few years. Seriously, I'd consider switching my company's flagship product to Java just so I could sell it on this app store if they make it actually work, and don't kill the brilliance of this idea with lameness!
I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
HHISSSSSSSSssssSSSsSssSsssSS!
Hsssshssssssssthhhhhh!!
(This message written and authorized by the Annoying Python Evangelists' Club).
Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
I really see this as being something like a usable package manager for platforms that do not have them (or even those that do), making it easy to browse for great software. I'd be as happy to use something like this on a Mac as on Windows.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
So, Sun will finally go live with their pet store.
I'm still waiting to see the details about this idea, but I'm very hopeful.
In resent years Java has seen many additions and improvements to it's libraries. Swing is more than capable of creating attractive UIs and the addition of JavaFX to the stack makes it even easier.
If the Java app store deploys apps in to a managed environment like we see with Android, problems with standardisation and security can be avoided.
Go elegant.
I realise that java code looks elegant. That things are also easy to program. But have you ever examined the callstack? Do yourself a favour sometime and see why Java is slow as dogs balls, memory hungry and anything but elegant.
Part of what I do is manage the applications running on a couple of HPC machines and when things are really busy, guess which jobs get pushed aside for resource hogging?
.
Where is the "network effect" of the App Store? Most of the apps on the store are network-less, or only trivially use the network to access web services, not to interact with each other.
The network effect in this case means the user base - the iPhone app store apps don't talk to each other either, often not even servers. But because people tell everyone about apps they got, or read about iPhone apps, or find them when searching for them - you get a lot of cross promotion from users. Especially if the Java App Store had a lot of small casual gaming apps as well as some useful utility apps that were well written that have traditionally been the domain of crappy Windows shareware, a lot of people could start using the Java App Store pretty quickly and telling others to do so. It doesn't take long to get enough mass to draw in a lot of developers and then you are set... I see it almost more like the Palm app stores that used to be bigger, than the iPhone App Store (since there will be more choice on the part of the users).
And I think it's unheard of that someone would buy an iPhone because they wanted access to a service that was only available on the iPhone.
Specifically, no. In aggregate - yes. I'd have a very hard time recommending other smart phones at the moment over the iPhone because of the lead on applications it offers - there's not any one application that is critical, but En Masse you have enough to make it a really compelling point. In the same way someone might be drawn to the Java App Store first over going to someplace like Walmart when they are bored of have a specific task in mind.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
2004 called; they want their Java 'ecosystem' back.
I can't help but find it incredibly odd that someone would point at Eclipse as a "failed" Java ecosystem!
That's the very example of why one would think a Java app store might be able to work.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I think it will be a success, but probably only for desktop apps. I await more details as to sales terms and mechanics of how it will work though.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
*cough* sourceforge
Yet people use apt-get instead of just downloading the tgz's directly on Linux, why is that?
Because if you do have a centralised app repository that is extremely easy to use and which contains quality, tested applications it's much easier to use than searching the internet for something that may or may not do what you want and may or may not be trojan infested.
Sun may have overlooked one thing: Apple don't actually make much money from the app store, at least according to this article.
Presumably, it makes business sense for Apple as the app store contributes to the appeal of the iPhone. Sun won't be selling the PCs that are running these apps, and as others have pointed out the expense of reviewing full applications rather than small iPhone apps will be much greater.
Perhaps there are other benefits for Sun, but from a short-term profit-making perspective it won't work.
Having said that, a package-manager-esque software distribution method for Windows is a no-brainer. Microsoft are probably the best company to implement that, though.
RS
I use a free Java apps occasionally on the desktop, on several different platforms. They look foreign, they don't integrate well with the desktop, they're slow to start up and run, they use dysfunctional file selectors, and a bunch of keys don't work because somehow Java doesn't understand my keyboard map.
Even on my phone, I have replaced all Java ME apps with native apps for the same reasons: they look bad, ran at the wrong resolutions, didn't integrate with the rest of the phone, and didn't understand the keyboard.
Those who dismiss usability and design (and the network effect!!) under the gauzy umbrella of "marketing"
You're so right; he should have pointed out that App Store succeeded despite its numerous usability problems.
On sourceforge no one ever donated a single penny to me. SourceForge only works if you want to give your software away for $0,00.
I have a JavaME sortware for sale [1]. Currently I upload only demo version and source code to sourceforge but I sell on handango, mobile2day or smartsam.
So I welcome the Java shop - it might give me the opportunity to sell the MacOS/Windows/Linux version as well.
Martin
PS: before you wonder: JavaME is a pain to set-up so compiling yourself is not worth the effort compared to the few $ the application actually cost.
[1] http://fx-602p.krischik.com/
This is about browser applications. This is about Desktop applications. And there Java is very strong indeed.
Think Handango [1] or Mobile2Day [2] but for MacOS/Linux/Windows - PCs.
And this is indeed something I am craving for. A simple way for low volumes sales into those markets.
[1] http://www.handango.com/catalog/ProductDetails.jsp?productId=247602
[2] http://www.mobile2day.com/en/plattform:symbian/product_1682341_details.html
World peace? All PC's coming together, macs, windows and linux alike, and download from the same store and run that same software?
guys are missing one point, java does revolve around desktop (esp windows) but dont forget those devices like Nokia's,Sony Erricson etc for whom you have to browse through hundred of pages to find a trustworthy application, I think it could be a big thing unless they did it properly :)
On a minor note, if every time you add a component in Swing, Netbeans moves things around, this means that you are not using the layout managers properly.
From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
javaFX rofl. Swing is crap come on its over for java apps on the desktop or browser.
This is what the GPL is all about: The code is free but not necessarily the finished product.
There are not that many people who are skilled enough to actually compile a JavaME application.
I can - but honestly for â 10 I would not bother. But knowing that I could if I have to: priceless.
Actually I started the FX-602P Simulator because the application I used before (SkinCalculator Professional by Nicevalley) was not ported to UIQ3. If fact it has disappeared all together. I asked for the source code twice but no avail.
Martin
The Debian Project has announced the creation of an Apt Store. This exciting repository will allow users to get whatever packages they need without even touching their mice.
Are you referring to the date when you click on it, or when it opens?
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Actually as an user, I really hate Java apps. I've just never seen a good one. I've also seen very few which probably doesn't help.
Limewire and Azureus are big and slow, even on quite modern hardware. Azureus happily eats 512MB RAM (which is still a very sizable chunk of a modern system). It also uses quite a bit of CPU.
But what really made me hate Java for applications was Freenet. I'm convinced that doing it in Java was a horrible mistake that dramatically limited its userbase. Back when it was new and came up on Slashdot once in a while, Freenet was near impossible to run along with anything else. A box with 128MB RAM could run Apache without any problems, but freenet would bring it to its knees.
The fundamental problem I have is: That somehow the two simple tasks "download files" and "serve files" that could be done on a Pentium 1 with 32MB RAM on the background without the user noticing were turned into huge resource consuming applications.
What happened in the end is that I gave up on freenet, because it'd get my box to OOM every day or so, and got rid of Limewire and Azureus as soon as I managed to find a replacement. Now I use rtorrent and KTorrent.
Resuming: An user may not know what a JRE is, but that's precisely why they don't understand why they have to install one, and Java appears to equal non-standard UI and horrible memory hogging. Not good.
Actually no. As a developer I prefer to develop in whatever is easiest for the task at hand. I'll code in Perl on Windows if it's a task Perl is well suited to. But if I coded for other people I wouldn't get a whole lot of users that way.
When I code for other people on Windows, I open Visual Studio, because that produces applications that look native for their system and which install without problems.
Sun has such a good record of making money with Java! I'm sure this initiative will be a stunning success!
Sun's lawyers are salivating as surely there's an anti competitive lawsuit in there somewhere.
Some days it's just not worth
chewing through my restraints.
A store would be interesting, especially if Sun leveraged the cross-platform power of Java to let people run the same game on multiple computers. Play something on your desktop at home, get up in the morning and play the same game on your mobile device on the train.
But that's not what he's talking about at all.
As Schwartz mentions in his post, the Java update mechanism recently offered to install the Google toolbar. It was configured to install by default.
What Schwartz is talking about is getting paid to distribute applications by the Java update mechanism. That install by default unless you tell it not to.
The first time somebody runs the Java updater, it will install some software. The user will promptly uninstall the software and the Java updater, and perhaps Java itself.
so.... take sourceforge, subtract anything that isn't java-based, add barriers to entry (must pass some arbitrary tests for "safety and content"), add charging to distribute, and what do you get?
You must wait a little bit before using this resource; please try again later.
Why would anyone want to PAY for anything based on Java?
99.99% of all Java is used for Java "Crapplets", and other small "applications".
Java is free, and so should be most of the programs written in that language, there is nothing 'outstanding' I have seen a java program do, that I would pay even $1.00 for.
"Certifying" Java applications is a joke. This is just a wanna be apple store, but selling crap instead of products.
Somehow this smells of 1998's dot-comminess.
Uh, apt-get does this already and isn't limited to java.
For those of you stuck on Windows-whatever ... apt-get came from Debian Linux. It merges OS updates, security updates, application loading (new and updates) into a single system. There are a number of repositories/depots and users may add more from third parties, if they like. However, there's really no need for 95% of the users to bother with that. There are hundreds if not thousands of applications in available. Dependencies are handled automatically.
Oh, and all the applications are free. Some of the applications may have legal issues for your location. but they are grouped into a specific depot that you have to add to use. For example, MP3 en/decoders and DVD players, which are encumbered.
There are a number of GUI front ends to make this pretty and VERY easy to use. Synaptic is installed with Ubuntu Linux.
Others may suggest RPM, but that system has gotten extremely confused in my experiences over the years. Dependencies get out of whack and there doesn't seem to be any way to fix it. Soon, you can't update/maintain your systems anymore. Boo.
apt-get isn't written in Java, so it isn't slow, doesn't use tons and tons of RAM and sorta just works.
Microsoft, are you paying attention? You need to make a free depot for any applications to use to maintain your operating systems, security patches, and **every** application. It needs to be free for users and free for developer and free for companies. You are just a catalog, not the host for 3rd parties. Set a standard, publish it, and by just placing your own software into this, you'll cover many apps. Heck, I'd like for my MS-Office updates to be included in the Windows-update process. Please?
Powerful? Elegant? Hahahahahaha. Good troll though.
"slow as dogs balls"
... These SI units get more eccentric every year.
I wasn't aware dogs balls were a standard unit of speed?
There are 10 kinds of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.
So how much did they pay the government of Indonesia for the island?
Just want I want. To wade through even larger mounds of crap to find the one gem of a good application.
That's how you become a real man, son. Not a quiche eating pansy boy.
Sun has done more to alienate it's customer base than any other company out there, except SCO. They wouldn't know a customer if it piddled on their trouser leg.
A Java app store? Seriously? Is there really a need for such a thing? I rarely EVER use Java unless I have to, and then I can probably find a way to do without it.
A community of 1 BILLION? Was this actually said with a straight face?
What a bunch of idiots.
Pax Vobiscum
This can only mean that Sun is really confident about what's coming in the pipeline for JavaFX 1.5, and are eager to show off the technology.
If they can have a unified platform for desktop, mobile, and even TV apps, then it can grant Windows and OS X users (in addition to any Linux/OpenSolaris user who so chooses) one place to shop for desktop and mobile apps. Obviously, they'll need to sign up more mobile phone makers and somehow get JavaFX working on Android, but I think they might pull it off.
Also, I have a feeling that Oracle is behind this decision, or they at least support it.
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I thought the entire idea of SWT was to avoid bloat by using the system's native widgets for rendering, as opposed to Swing which creates its own.
GLaDOS for President 2016! "Well here we are again. It's always such a pleasure." -- GLaDOS, 2011
A bigger app store, that's a clever marketing scheme. What will all those iPhone users do when this shiny new app store won't fit on their little screens? They'll be SOL!
If Sun follows this up with the World's Biggest Cell Phone, they're golden.
Java should have died years ago. It is a terrible platform. It eats memory, runs slowly, and is difficult to debug. Oh, and despite its claims at portability it is not.
Java is popular with Java programmers because it inflates a $5000 mandate to a $50000 mandate. It wastes processor cycles, is inefficient and undeserving of our respect.
Anyone starting a new Java project in 2009 is a menace to his employers. People push for Java out of personal corruption and greed.
Us self-taught PHP programmers are kicking the asses of you university types with your Java crap.
Seriously, to quote Austin Powers: "Why won't you die?"
I refuse to install Java on my computer because 1) It Sucks and 2) I don't want to support http://slashdot.org/articles/99/09/20/0744243.shtml Patrick Naughton.
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Comment removed based on user account deletion
... and if you need a power of two based unit of speed, you use "dobi balls"
I know who Debian is and what they're about and have pretty high confidence that I'm getting quality software from 'em. (No ssh jokes, please.)
I know who Apple and Microsoft are, and what the criteria for their stores is: the apps are required to not be too good and functional.
Sun? Who is Sun? What's your gimmick? Are you here to maximize my freedom, or just to keep me in a long-term billing arrangement with AT&T, or what?
"Believe me!" -- Donald Trump
then Oracle is screwed.
Have any of you checked out http://www.projectvector.com ? haha
Actually as an user, I really hate Java apps. I've just never seen a good one. I've also seen very few which probably doesn't help.
You have tried to use them on resource constrained systems, which does not help - and the apps you were talking about all manage large volumes of data with a lot of simultaneous network connections, a worse case scenario for Java apps.
I'm not saying Java apps will not generally take a chunk of memory, but I am saying smaller (especially JavaFX apps) will be lighter weight and for most people that don't multi-task as much, not really have that much overhead. Lots of people play Flash games for example and that has more overhead than a Java game would.
Azureus happily eats 512MB RAM (which is still a very sizable chunk of a modern system).
Actually no. As a developer I prefer to develop in whatever is easiest for the task at hand.
Not if you want to earn money you are not.
When I was working in a large company I did not "prefer" to use Outlook. But I did so because I had a job, and Outlook was required.
If you are an independent software developer writing small apps you might "prefer" to write them in Perl. But if you can make decent money writing them in Java for the Java App Store, why not? The G1 has shown developers WILL use Java with this motivation.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Sun is still trying to be relevant. I thought they would stop issuing bombastic, baseless, bullshit press releases when they were finally acquired. I thought that was the whole point? Guess not. Maybe they really believe this crap.
I develop Java desktop applications as well and judging by the content of the local JUG mailing list that makes us both members of a tiny minority. Some of your complaints have been addressed by some vendors for some platforms, OTTOMH for many years Borland's IDE has been able to generate a windows clickable .exe out of a Java app. Most of your complaints should have solutions that some vendor, or motivated group, could implement relatively easily. The exception is the graphics. I agree the UI designers that I have used are a PITA and the results not so good as far as blending in with native apps.
I guess the question is, how does it stack up against other desktop languages? I haven't done any C++ for quite a while now - what's the state there? Is there a single Windows/Mac/Linux development system that generates executables with a homogeneous installation and use experience on all platforms along with good native look and feel on each of those platforms? And a good, easy to use, reliable and predictable UI designer as part of the IDE? If so then there's no reason it couldn't have been done for Java, and if not there's still no reason why it can't be done for Java, putting it far ahead of the rest. And either way you're right, Sun could have done better by Java.
So, is it too late for Java on the desktop to succeed?
The tyrant will always find a pretext for his tyranny - Aesop
I think it could work--I enjoy using Apple's app store.. and if Sun was able to build a decent platform for apps -- that produced winners like Eclipse, Limewire, SuperSync, or Azureus.. Yes, there are currently not a lot of great java desktop apps, but... it does seem like a missed market opportunity. Best of luck Sun!
randomsearch writes: Sun may have overlooked one thing: Apple don't actually make much money from the app store
The benefits are adoption and credibility, which Java needs more of. So long as it breaks even, a Java store will make the language more attractive to end-users.
Well down the road, this will drive more business for the company owning Java, just like having an OS used in university labs eventually drives more business for the company that owns the OS.
--dave
davecb@spamcop.net
The simple fact is that Sun doesn't have the standing in the market to be able to pull this off. It might as well be Novell or (whatever remains of) Borland making this announcement.
Google has the mindshare to do this, and the traffic. Sun definitely does not - at this point they're basically a middleware and server business. When people think "Where can I go on the Internet to buy and/or download software for my computer", they certainly don't think "Sun" (unless they already know it's a Sun product they're after). They probably think Google first.
Hell, Fry's would have a better chance of making it work than Sun would.
Come to think of it, Sun's best shot is to develop the system, then cut a deal with a retailer like Fry's, Best Buy, or Wal-Mart, and provide the system as a service through the retailer website with all the marketing done by the retailer.
But if Sun thinks they're going to create a Sun App Store and it's going to be an internet sensation, they're deluding themselves and having a 90's flashback.
September 2011: Looking for Cocoa/iOS work in Boston area Cocoa Programmer Quincy, MA
Part of what I do is manage the applications running on a couple of HPC machines and when things are really busy, guess which jobs get pushed aside for resource hogging?
Part of what I do is manage java middleware that services thousands of concurrent clients while maintaining performance in the 200-300TPS range, with an SLA to the client applications of less than 100 ms - and that includes round-trip time to the data providers, some of which may be several tiers removed.
So - what's your point again?
Look, I'm not saying Java is good for everything - it's a tool and like any other tool you should use the best one for the job. But you should also base your decisions on data that is more recent than your desktop experience with Java ten years ago.
I know enough to know that the last computer virus I got was due to having Java installed. Fuck it; there's nothing worthwhile on the web using Java, and there's nothing worthwhile on the desktop using Java. (Oh, and Limewire? That's an anti-feature-- that program has a UI so bad, Lotus Notes developers make fun of it.)
Comment of the year
But have you ever examined the callstack? Do yourself a favour sometime and see why Java is slow as dogs balls, memory hungry and anything but elegant.
Java (well, the JVM, not the language) is a system in itself. Think of a running Java instance as a running OpenVZ container, for example. It is doing its own memory management, etc. Granted, every JVM implementation I have seen severely lacks in external controls for things like killing off a rogue thread stack. I can't wait until I have a computer booting directly into a JVM environment, with all the modern operating-system commands and controls (could I get a Java BASH implementation, please?).
-IOVAR Web Dev Platform
If you want native look and feel then use SWT/JFACE not swing (people still use swing?).
The store should be called ArrayList, Vector has been deprecated.
That would be something I'd like to see.
I bash Java, but when I need to knock up things quickly, it is the first language I turn to. Usual old "right tool for the job" argument. A direct boot JVM would enable quite a few more classes of jobs.
Actually, now I think about it, wasn't there this?. Have you ever tried it? I haven't. Although I don't think that was the one I was thinking of.
Just firing random thoughts.
.
Well, relative to the dog they are awfully slow. Even your dad's balls move faster.
Heh - a fellow masochist!
I agree with you that the problems are not really that difficult. They should have been part of the Java platform 12 years ago. That's what I have difficulty with.
I'm not sure that the holy grail of a cross-platform app is really very useful. Sure, for a small developer having something that also runs on the Mac is kind of nice, but Mac users are picky. If it doesn't look and feel like a Mac app they pan it so you don't gain much. Sun's has infected the Java community with that Write Once Run Everywhere meme but it's really a red herring. What they really want is "Write For Windows but it runs on Solaris too" but they won't say that.
Actually, that's not really fair, as server apps DO run everywhere. The difference is that you have a systems admin (or at least a wannabe) installing those and they can install the JRE/JDK properly and they can get the configuration pulled together.
I think that Sun's all-or-nothing approach to JRE deployment has been a major problem. You had to either give the user the complete JRE or you had to go through some kind of licensing dance with Sun. If they had just gone with a per-seat kind of license and let people imbed Java without any fuss it would be a lot more successful on the desktop in my opinion. I just love the new "install on demand" JRE idea. What bozo came up with that? Yes, my user wants to download an app and then watch things spin when the try to launch it while it download the rest of the junk it needs. Genius at work there. I know when I download something I want to download it and then run it. If it's going to take 15 minutes to download, let me know that up front when I start the download in the browser and I will go get a cup of coffee or something. It's almost as bad as installation processes that pop up a dialog box after an hour of installing asking you some inane question.
Sun really wants to put the Java brand front and center but it just doesn't resonate with anyone besides developers. I think the "Java App Store" will do about as well as the "C App Store" and the "C++ App Store" have done...oh wait, those other two don't exist, do they?
Can Java succeed on the desktop? I think it can but it needs to be easy to write NON-PORTABLE apps in Java - if I want to write something that shines on Windows and doesn't work on the Mac or Linux (or Solaris) it shouldn't be a big deal. Now that Sun has let go of the licensing on Java we may see. I think the language, the JVM, the platform, the variety of libraries available and the tools (except for the GUI builders) make Java a great development platform.
Obviously you don't know jack about Java. It is a compiled language, you know, so the comparison to {shell|Python|Perl|PHP|anything text based and interpreted} is plain wrong.
You have two possibilities: binfmt_misc or wrap a JAR in a shell script
Yup, right tool for the job. What you describe though is not what I class as HPC. We need *maximum* floating point throughput. That includes extremely efficient memory and cache management. I know I'm in the ballpark when the remote power monitors to the supercomputers show significant increase in consumption.
I check each new java release. Still nowhere near an Intel compiler on Intel hardware.
I have to rewrite code that contains dynamic memory structures in C++ (stl) and remove those bastards. They are simply not good enough ... Replacing a stl::vector with the standard array will achieve a 500x speed improvement on a simple vector multiply (E54xx, 11.0.074). Some will argue that it is not needed. I beg to differ. What is better? Assuming zero network lag and instant communication, one processor can achieve what 500 do in exactly the same time. Which is more cost effective?
I like Java, don't get me wrong. I reach for it whenever I need cross network/client communication among many other things. It is extremely good at what *I* think it was designed for. At this very moment I'm punching out some Java code. But it's for an app for an entirely different purpose. A much more suitable one.
.
One year from now...
- Sun announces huge success.
Notable achievement: 10,000+ popular java apps
- Microsoft announces buying Sun.
Microsoft creates DRM scheme for Java apps. But to use these apps, you must own a Zune.
After watching the App Store concept do phenomenally well for Apple for the iPhone / iPod Touch... I think there's only one logical path going forward. Apple will eventually launch an app store for desktop computers through some kind of Virtual Machine (it's convenient that they've moved to x86) that will run on Macs AND Windows. They can sneak it in via iTunes and Quicktime.
As for Sun? Their stupid JVM install system is a mess... how can they get an App store to work any better? I think I've got 5 or 6 JVM installs currently on this laptop from various updates and bundled with things like OpenOffice - that's just confusing.
Ahh yes the JavaOS, I do vaguely remember that. The big problem I see is getting device drivers written for something like that, to be portable across such a range of hardware that is out there. These days I'm thinking a better approach (since I've gotten so deep into Linux) might be a JVM written as a Linux kernel module. Perhaps it's implemented in a similar fashion as OpenVZ or KVM? Well I can dream, and some day I hope to have time to pursue a project like this.
-IOVAR Web Dev Platform
Eclipse is great. But seriously, its main users are JAVA DEVELOPERS.
Azureus (and apparently Limewire) are the ones that catch my attention as end user apps. They still are far from being mainstream apps, and far from having great UI (very useful though).
The truth is as the GP says it is: MAINSTREAM USERS DEMONSTRATE A PREFERENCE FOR NATIVE APPLICATIONS. Said loudly because screaming it helps, as you seem to think it's just the developer choice that is causing the situation and not the crappy Java UIs.