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Mayo Clinic Reports Dramatic Outcomes In Prostate Cancer Treatment

Zorglub writes "Two prostate cancer patients who had been told their condition was inoperable are now cancer-free as the result of an experimental therapy, the Mayo Clinic in Rochester announced Friday. 'Cancer has a propensity for turning off T cells. Dr. Allison hypothesized that if you block the off-switch, T cells will stay turned on and create a prolonged immune response. Dr. Kwon, then at NIH, demonstrated that CTLA-4 blockage could be used to treat aggressive forms of prostate cancer in mice. There was one limitation to that concept — the worry that by simply leaving all the T cells on there may not be enough response aimed at the tumor. Dr. Kwon called Dr. Allison and designed the trial together. The idea: use androgen ablation or hormone therapy to ignite an immune approach — a pilot light — and then, after a short interval of hormone therapy, introduce an anti-CTLA-4 antibody that acts like gasoline to this pilot light and overwhelms the cancer cells.' After the treatment, the patients' tumors shrunk to such a degree that they could be successfully removed."

122 comments

  1. Hmmmm by ZosX · · Score: 4, Insightful

    So the immune system will actually fight cancer, but the cancer negates this by turning off the T-cells. This is fascinating. The problem, from what I understand, is that cancer cells reproduce indefinitely as their DNA does not slowly break down. It seems like this could be a real breakthrough for lots of cancer patients.

    1. Re:Hmmmm by moon3 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      immune system will actually fight cancer

      You need to mark the cancer cells (in someway) so the immune system could recognize them as a threat. Many times big problems could have very simple solutions in biology.

    2. Re:Hmmmm by ColdWetDog · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Many times big problems could have very simple solutions in biology.

      Simple

      I don't think that word means what you think it means. Just because something is conceptually simple, doesn't mean that it's simple to use as a medical therapy.

      Messing with the immune system is rarely "simple".

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    3. Re:Hmmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's not that their DNA doesn't slowly break down but that DNA in Humans is not fail-safe (intelligently designed? probably not). There are specific genes that suppress tumor growth, etc, when they fail you can get cancer.

    4. Re:Hmmmm by ceoyoyo · · Score: 4, Informative

      The immune system is constantly fighting cancer. Whenever something goes wrong when one of your cells divides, which happens relatively frequently, if the built in suicide mechanisms don't work then the immune system deals with it. What we call "cancer" is just the result when the cancerous cells get too far ahead.

    5. Re:Hmmmm by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

      But think about it: What is the best, most integrative, and most sense-making therapy of a disease?
      Improving the own immune system, of course.

      Give it updates (immunization), improve its heuristics, give it all the resources it needs.

      It is funny and very telling of the real goal of pharma companies, that despite (or because of) all our "technology", the human immune system now is the weakest in the whole animal kingdom.
      But the main driver behind this weak immune system, is the crap that we call "food" (but really isn't).

      I for one, will hack and tune my own body, just like I do it to my computer and/or my car.

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    6. Re:Hmmmm by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      the human immune system now is the weakest in the whole animal kingdom

      [citation needed]

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    7. Re:Hmmmm by Hurricane78 · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      The real reason behind this, is that this process of division goes wrong more and more often, because the whole system is already that damaged, from the trash we call "food" and our environment full of unhealthy materials. Which adds up to our already very weak immune system.

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    8. Re:Hmmmm by maxume · · Score: 1

      No. Just no. People used to die much more often because of stupid things like bacterial infections and savagery (people still die of those things today, but not at anything even resembling historical rates. Not even soldiers). Now that we (on average) live longer, we get subtler diseases.

      If we used human processes to create trillions of cells, most of the individuals would die of cancer before they were a year old (or something, take this as hyperbole, not as a fact). I'd say things are working pretty well.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    9. Re:Hmmmm by Sponge+Bath · · Score: 4, Funny

      ...the trash we call "food"

      On the plus side, the contents of all those Hot Pockets, Cheetos, and Twinkies will help preserve my cancer ridden corpse for centuries.
      I just hope no joker poses me in an undignified position.

    10. Re:Hmmmm by infaustus · · Score: 1

      Normal cells do not reproduce indefinitely not because their DNA is breaking down, but because of checkpoints in the cell cycle. In cancerous cells, these checkpoints fail because of problems such as the overexpression of oncogenes or the underexpression of tumor suppressors.

      --
      Frosty piss posts are worthless, GNAA posts are worthless and hurtful, but they are the least of this site's neuroses.
    11. Re:Hmmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      There are a lot of cellular and genetic causes of cancer. Telomerase is an generally an embryonic enzyme that is reactivated in cancer calls that prevents the 'breakdown' of DNA as cells replicate, leading to indefinite replecative capabilities. There are also tumor suppressor genes that when mutated or deactivated lose their ability to prevent cancerous cell growth. Examples of this include p53, which detects errors in the DNA and either stops the replicative cell cycle or promotes apoptosis (programed cell death). In ~50% of cancers this gene is altered or lost, allowing for cells with altered DNA to continue replicating. There are a wide variety of other genes/proteins involved in apoptosis that be altered. The immune system is often capable of recognizing cancerous cells do the their lack of 'self' signals that are normally expressed on all cells, when recognized, immune cells such as Natural Killer cells can cause Apoptosis of the altered cells (this is also how we fight virally infected cells). But if the proteins involved in apoptosis don't work, the cell becomes immortal and can avoid death via the immune system. There are also other 'proto'oncogenes that code for proteins involved in controlling cell growth and replication. If these genes become over activated, a large number of growth factors are released causing excessive growth and proliferation of cell groups...=Cancer. There are generally several gene alterations that lead to a cancerous growth, and these genetic alterations vary from tumor to tumor, and even from cell to cell within a single tumor. This is why no single cure for cancer exists, or will ever exist.

    12. Re:Hmmmm by reverseengineer · · Score: 1

      If you're wondering why it is cancer can gain the ability to turn off your T-cells, it's important to remember that overactive immunity can be just as dangerous as immune insufficiency. Mutations in the CTLA-4 gene that boost its activity are associated with autoimmune diseases like lupus (yes, sometimes it is lupus), type I diabetes, and rheumatoid arthritis. In fact, Bristol-Myers-Squibb, makers of the ipilimumab (anti-CTLA-4 antibody) investigational drug discussed here already make abatacept, which is CTLA-4 fused to antibody. Abatacept, marketed as Orencia, is FDA approved for the treatment of rheumatoid arthritis, and is under investigation for treatment of other autoimmune diseases, as well as for treatment of automimmune rejection of transplanted tissues. So on both ends of the spectrum, CTLA-4 and other T-cell regulatory genes play a big role in disease, and make for promising avenues of research.

      --
      "FDA staff reviewers expressed concern about the number of patients who were left out of the study because they died."
    13. Re:Hmmmm by maxume · · Score: 1

      Hilariously, preservatives often work by preventing oxidation. Ya know, like antioxidants, those things that are supposed to keep you healthy and strong.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    14. Re:Hmmmm by MrNaz · · Score: 3, Funny

      You'll need to offer him some guidance on how to properly cite random bullshit pulled directly from the rectum.

      Perhaps like this?

      "The human immune system is now the weakest in the entire animal kingdom(1)."

      1. Dr Bhul Schitt "A Diverse Collection of Utter Nonsense." Published: Oxford, 2007. pp34-38.

      --
      I hate printers.
    15. Re:Hmmmm by TheLink · · Score: 4, Interesting

      If the human immune system was really the weakest in the whole animal kingdom we wouldn't be living to 70+ years.

      Even if you take real good care of mice, they tend to fall apart by 3 years - cancer etc.

      Just see what happens to a patient with AIDS - all sorts of rare cancers appearing, dying from common cold etc.

      The trouble with some of these tweaks is you could end up with an autoimmune response. Sure you might be able to get the immune system to blow away the cancer. But it might start to attack the normal cells as well.

      When you get old, the "normal" cells after years of abuse and damage aren't quite as normal as they were when you were 20. It could be like pouring some new fangled super rust remover on an old car to find that most of the old car is made of rust... ;).

      That's why there's reproduction - it's a bit like a reset. Start over from scratch with a sperm and egg.

      With unicellular creatures like bacteria and protozoa it's not as vital for huge colonies of them to mutually cooperate - they can drift genetically on every generation as long as they can keep reproducing successfully. That's not true for complex multicellular organisms like humans. A bunch of cells striking out on their own = cancer.

      --
    16. Re:Hmmmm by Ihmhi · · Score: 1

      Aren't T-Cells that shit that made the zombies in Resident Evil? I don't think anyone should be fucking with that stuff man!

    17. Re:Hmmmm by assert(0) · · Score: 2, Insightful

      >But the main driver behind this weak immune system, is the crap that we call "food" (but really isn't).

      You really bought into the "health food" & supplements party line, didn't you?

      1. A stronger immune system is not always a good thing. See autoimmune syndrom, cytokine storms etc.

      2. We don't eat crap food! Yes, we have easy access to carbs, which is not always a good thing (depending on genetic and social factors). But we also have easy access to nutrients! We, in the west, can and do eat greens any time of the year. Scurvy, beriberi, and kwashiorkor are unheard of today in developed countries.

      3. Eating crap food doesn't cause your immune systems to become "weak". It results in malnutrition, which in turn causes very specific conditions (like scurvy, beriberi and kwashiorkor). Crap food -> weak immune system -> cancer (or whatever) is a "health food" store myth. It's basically a meme designed to extract money from insecure but basically healthy westerners (aka suckers).

      --
      (founded 95,000,000 yrs ago, very space opera)
    18. Re:Hmmmm by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

      Don't you get it? They would not die of most of those bacterial infections, if they had a real immune system, instead of that "spark-emitting, red-alarm-lights-blinking, and rotting" rest of an immune system.

      Same thing with cancer. Why do you thing the reproductive function of the cells starts to fail that early, and just at specific spots, instead of the whole body? This is no general thing of old age. It is all that trash fucking up the system.

      Same as allergies. I have living proof, that stopping to eat milk-based (and usually heat-destroyed) proteins, cures Asthma! How about that?

      But yeah. Most people survive the trash we call "food". But how? They lose hair, get blind, get arthritis, and organ failures all over the body. And apparently, all those diseases are supposed to be because of the age?
      Well, NO. They aren't. And I have 50,000 patients, and 50 years of experience by Dr. M. O. Bruker, to prove it.

      The only way that those diseases are subtle, is because they take decades of "doin' it wrong", to develop.

      Sadly, nearly no doctor cares, or even knows about this, because they can't think that far.

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    19. Re:Hmmmm by epine · · Score: 1

      It is funny and very telling of the real goal of pharma companies, that despite (or because of) all our "technology", the human immune system now is the weakest in the whole animal kingdom.

      Wow. What we have here is a total collapse of the cognitive immune system responsible for thinking before typing.

      Over all I think the human brain is a remarkable organ, but some of its failure modes defy rational analysis. Six billion counter examples. Maybe it's hard to count to six billion with your fingers.

      Bonnie Bassler on how bacteria "talk" | Video on TED.com
      * 10 times more bacterial cells in or on a human than human cells
      * 100 times more bacterial genes in you or on you than human genes

      So there it is. If our immune system was worth shit, it wouldn't permit all these freeloaders.

    20. Re:Hmmmm by maxume · · Score: 1

      My allergies have attenuated as I have aged. Or so I figure. Maybe the fact that I am in (far) better cardiovascular condition than I was a decade ago has contributed, I don't really know, it could be lots of things. I don't think that I could prove either of those ideas using just my own experience as evidence though, and I never had asthma.

      Also, arthritis is often caused by too much immune activity, so maybe you should leave that one out when you are talking about our ruined immune systems (which I think is oh so much bunkum).

      (and as I understand it, cancer arises when the second order processes that take care of cells that fail to die as programmed become overwhelmed and most people naturally have thousands of potentially cancerous cells in their body, cells that are usually killed by the immune system).

      Glad you decided to drop the name of your medical hero though, I can commit a logical fallacy and ignore you.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    21. Re:Hmmmm by 32771 · · Score: 1

      > That's why there's reproduction - it's a bit like a reset. Start over from scratch with a sperm and egg.

      This has to be a geek friendly attempt at telling some of us to get out of the basement.

      > That's not true for complex multicellular organisms like humans. A bunch of cells striking out on their own = cancer.

      So the conclusion would be that we would never get as old as some much simpler tree that can get cancer but
      hardly has much in the way of organs that can fail. We would have to evolutionary outrun it somehow.
      To think that trees do produce successful offspring every year throughout their whole life (with variation)
      puts this idea to rest.

      --
      Je me souviens.
    22. Re:Hmmmm by sjames · · Score: 1

      The thing is, the immune system dispatches cancerous cells all the time. A diagnosis of cancer means the immune system has already failed in that case and has been overwhelmed. That implies that it's harder than just provoking a response. It's already BEEN provoked and that didn't fix it.

      The key is to come up with a combination of immune boosters, better targeting of the immune system, radiation, chemo, and surgery that tips the game back in the immune system's favor without killing the patient in the process.

      Of course, the chemo and radiation have the potential to kill the patient themselves, and ironically, can cause cancer. Triggering or targeting the immune system in the wrong way or too strongly can also kill the patient.

      The immune system remains a tempting target because if modulated correctly, it is a magic bullet that can kill only cancer cells. But yeah, it's not "simple".

    23. Re:Hmmmm by sponzereII · · Score: 1

      Cancer cells do not reproduce indefinitely because of their rate of DNA degradation. Cancer cells reproduce indefinitely because the intracellular signaling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_transduction) that controls apoptosis, survival, proliferation or differentiation has gone awry. Mutations associated with cancer usually result in a gene product that causes the aberrant signaling.

      One thing that concerns me about this study is that the authors use androgen ablation therapy (ABT) as a "pilot." ABT usually works well at first, shrinking a tumor so that it can be surgically removed, and this new therapy increases the speed with which that happens, which is great. However, ABT also causes transdifferentiation of prostate cancer cells into a neuroendocrine-like phenotype. This NE-like phenotype secretes growth factors that prostate cancer cells thrive on, and may even induce transformation in normal prostate cells. So while the therapy is successful at first, remission years down the road (and many times sooner) is not uncommon. So it seems to me that in order for this new therapy, and ABT in general, to truly cure patients, the transdifferentiation process to NE-like cells must be blocked. Luckily there are several groups already working on sorting the signaling pathway activation that occurs during this particular transdifferentiation, which could potentially identify some new drug targets. It will be interesting to see if the patients taking part in this new therapy will regress in the same way "successfully" ABT treated patients have in the past.

    24. Re:Hmmmm by nbauman · · Score: 1
      Mod parent up.

      An overactive immune system is just as dangerous as an underactive immune system.

      An overactive immune system causes autoimmune diseases, like asthma, multiple sclerosis, lupus, etc.

      Fortunately most of the snake oil peddled to "boost" the immune system has no effect at all.

    25. Re:Hmmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uhh, is that our immune system doing it's job to let us live that long? Or is it modern medicine and a germ theory? We don't consume food that is expired, we have supplements to make sure we get all our nutrients, we get check-ups, we have anti-biotics, vaccinations, blah blah blah blah. That's not really our immune system standing up to nature.

    26. Re:Hmmmm by Eris13 · · Score: 1

      It's great for the primary cancer tumour, but there is no indication though if it will help the patient long term. Normally when the tumour becomes inoperable it's already metastasized - in case of prostate cancer, into the bones.

    27. Re:Hmmmm by dwywit · · Score: 1
      Your point 3 is superficial. Do you think your immune system isn't handling pre-cancerous cells or clusters all the time? Getting sick mostly comes down to one thing - your immune system becomes overwhelmed - either because it's weak (genetic and/or environmental reasons), or sheer mass of pathogens (i.e. some sick f#cker sneezes on you).

      You could be genetically "weak" with regard to certain cancer/s, or you could be chronically undernourished in important areas, i.e. low levels of zinc or selenium, for example. If you have chronic malnourishment in important areas, you immune system (and other systems) will be compromised.

      P.S. Attention male /.ers - you lose approx 5mg zinc with each ejaculation.

      --
      They sentenced me to twenty years of boredom
    28. Re:Hmmmm by TheLink · · Score: 1

      You can graft a branch from a different tree to another tree and have it work fine. You can even graft different species of plants together :).

      Doesn't seem as easy to do that sort of stuff on animals that have a long lifespan.

      --
    29. Re:Hmmmm by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 1

      Messing with the immune system is rarely "simple".

      Bingo. The unintended consequence could be a tidal wave of autoimmune diseases from lupus to arthritis. Better than dying from cancer, but the cure may come at a the high cost of a low quality of life.

    30. Re:Hmmmm by Merpy · · Score: 1

      Would it be possible to find out how cancer cells shut of the T-cells and apply it to say, a heart transplant?

    31. Re:Hmmmm by lsatenstein · · Score: 0

      Can we transition from mice to humans? Or was that done?

      --
      Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
    32. Re:Hmmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mutations are always created in your body. For vast majority, these trigger cell death. For those that survive, vast majority of those are destroyed by the immune system. Only very select mutations are able to pass both marks and grow. Then they are detected by us as causing some sort of a problem.

      Yes, immune system destroys cancer cells. But cancers that mask themselves get passed that. Using immune system to target cancer cells is actually something being worked on - using a genetically engineered virus to selectively mark cancel cells for immune reaction.

      On a different note about masking from immune system, human embryo and fetus masks itself from mother's immune system.. The mechanism is the same as many different parasites. Understanding these better will allow us to deal with cancer better.

    33. Re:Hmmmm by 32771 · · Score: 1

      Damn and totipotency too! However, evolution has given us chainsaws and lightning fast reaction. Somehow I hope I'm not getting old enough to see how it ends.

      BTW, "You can even graft different species of plants together", can I have an example please.

      --
      Je me souviens.
    34. Re:Hmmmm by TheLink · · Score: 1

      Within the genera, a fair number are doing tomato, potato, eggplant, tobacco combinations:

      http://www.ozpolitic.com/gardening/grafting-tomatoes-wild-tobacco.html

      Different genera:

      http://extension.missouri.edu/publications/DisplayPub.aspx?P=G6971

      quote: "Plants of different genera are less successfully grafted, although there are some cases where this is possible. For example, quince, genus Cydonia, may be used as a dwarfing rootstock for pear, genus Pyrus."

      --
    35. Re:Hmmmm by Zeio · · Score: 1

      This rusty aging theory, that the reason people age is due to accumulated damage, is under serious scrutiny at this point.

      Its really simple: (1) Evolution has no reason to further improve on designs after successful reproduction, (2) lots of old people competing for the same food supply is not good for reproduction.

      There are clams that live to 400, turtles that are engaging in reproduction over 100 years old and trees that live for 5000 years.

      In fact, aging in humans is rapidly accelerated in the following disorders, all genetic: Werner's (WS), Cockayne, and Hutchinson-Gilford's.

      You might want to update yourself here:

      http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2009/05/is-aging-an-acc.html

      I myself think that death when we experience it from aging is a desirable genetic trait, and to defeat aging we will have to learn more about epigenetics and clever gene promotion and expression.

      Or you can continue to believe in biological rust and tattered telomeres, which of course is junk science.

      --
      Legalize the constitution. Think for yourself question authority.
  2. Lyle Alzado is rolling in his grave by BadAnalogyGuy · · Score: 0

    If you told me just 1 year ago that steroids could be used to cure cancer rather than cause it, I would have laughed in your face.

    There are so many incidences of steroid users succumbing to cancer that it's not uncommon to see American body builders getting checked out in Mexican hospitals for various cancers. If this therapy really works, it is critical to find the balance point between androgenic steroid therapeutic use and outright abuse.

    1. Re:Lyle Alzado is rolling in his grave by forgot_my_username · · Score: 2, Informative

      If you told me just 1 year ago that steroids could be used to cure cancer rather than cause it, I would have laughed in your face.

      There are so many incidences of steroid users succumbing to cancer that it's not uncommon to see American body builders getting checked out in Mexican hospitals for various cancers. If this therapy really works, it is critical to find the balance point between androgenic steroid therapeutic use and outright abuse.

      It isn`t the androgen therapy that is doing it, it is the anti-ctla4 antibody that is doing the work.

      If anything the androgen therapy should be causing the prostate cancer to grow

      narf.

    2. Re:Lyle Alzado is rolling in his grave by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it's hormone ablation therapy. they are lowering testosterone levels...

      FTA:

      Before receiving the MDX-010, both men underwent a hormone therapy called androgen ablation. It's a combination of a pill that blocks testosterone and an injection tells the brain to order the testicles to stop producing it. This removal of testosterone from the system usually shrinks the tumor to some degree.

    3. Re:Lyle Alzado is rolling in his grave by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      It's anti androgen (TFA uses the term "androgen ablation") therapy. Knock out the actions of testosterone since prostate growth (and often prostate cancer growth) is in part testosterone dependent.

      These are not the steroids that you are looking for.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    4. Re:Lyle Alzado is rolling in his grave by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you told me just 1 year ago that steroids could be used to cure cancer rather than cause it, I would have laughed in your face.

      There are so many incidences of steroid users succumbing to cancer that it's not uncommon to see American body builders getting checked out in Mexican hospitals for various cancers. If this therapy really works, it is critical to find the balance point between androgenic steroid therapeutic use and outright abuse.

      Absolute nonsense. Firstly, this isn't relevant to the therapy dicussed here - their therapy reduces testosterone.

      Secondly, your claims about anabolic steroids are simply false. Lyle Alzado claimed that his steroid use caused his brain cancer. However, this is incorrect, as *his own physicians* pointed out. Not only is there no known possible causal link between steroids and brain cancer, there is no statistical link either. It's just media hype.

    5. Re:Lyle Alzado is rolling in his grave by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are a lot of different types of steroids...

    6. Re:Lyle Alzado is rolling in his grave by RightSaidFred99 · · Score: 1

      Good god. Could you please propagate any more myths? Lyle Alzado did not die from steroids, first of all.

      I was actually kind. Your second sentence is just an outright fabrication, and a laughable one. Checked out of Mexican hospitals for various cancers, huh? Right... Cancer isn't really something you need to worry about with steroids, there are other health complications though.

  3. Nice analogy by metalhed77 · · Score: 5, Funny

    The idea: use androgen ablation or hormone therapy to ignite an immune approach â" a pilot light â" and then, after a short interval of hormone therapy, introduce an anti-CTLA-4 antibody that acts like gasoline to this pilot light and overwhelms the cancer cells.

    Fry: Usually on the show, they came up with a complicated plan, then explained it with a simple analogy.
    Leela: Hmmm... If we can re-route engine power through the primary weapons and configure them to Melllvar's frequency, that should overload his electro-quantum structure.
    Bender: Like putting too much air in a balloon!
    Fry: Of course! It's all so simple!

    --
    Photos.
    1. Re:Nice analogy by linguizic · · Score: 2, Informative

      Thank God!!!!! At last someone in the universe remembers that Melllvar is spelled with 3 L's!!!!

      --
      Does this sig remind you of Agatha Christie?
    2. Re:Nice analogy by smaddox · · Score: 1

      I think I've done enough conventions to know how to spell "Melllvar".

  4. Mayo Clinic is falling behind by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    The Miracle Whip Clinic announced a similar breakthrough last year and they did it with much more tang.

    1. Re:Mayo Clinic is falling behind by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

      But I wonder why the Baconnaise clinic still is in business. Especially since they specialized on chocolate chip pancakes and sausage on a stick therapy...

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    2. Re:Mayo Clinic is falling behind by Sponge+Bath · · Score: 1

      ...they did it with much more tang.

      One man's tang is another man's taint.

    3. Re:Mayo Clinic is falling behind by TheLink · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Well that's because Baconnaise, choc chip pancakes and sausage have anti-cancer properties. Really!

      Eat enough of that and the odds of you getting cancer go way down.

      You'd just die of heart disease or something else first ;).

      Some people choose certain diets because they want to live longer. Others choose their diets based on how they want to die ;).

      You're eventually going to die of something. Imagine a pie chart where the slices represent the odds of you dying of a particular problem. Whatever you do, the pie is there and it doesn't go away. You can change the sizes of the slices, but it's unlikely you'll ever get to a slice that says "ran out of resources due to Heat Death of the Universe".

      So don't pick a diet or lifestyle that you can't grow to like. It's no point suffering your entire life just to die of cancer in the end. But it's probably not a good idea to die too early either, so find a decent balance and try to figure it out early enough so you can get on with more important stuff ;).

      --
    4. Re:Mayo Clinic is falling behind by jabithew · · Score: 1

      As a European just finding out about these wonders, I have to ask a couple of serious questions.

      Why are you all still alive? Have you heard of food? Are you aware of the concept of vegetables?

      --
      All intents and purposes. Not intensive purposes.
    5. Re:Mayo Clinic is falling behind by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Umm, there's also greatly reduced quality of life as you suffer from crippling diseases. If you stay healthy you may not get that many more years, but you'll certainly have more years that are worth living.

    6. Re:Mayo Clinic is falling behind by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As a European, I smiled and salivated when I first heard of Baconnaise.

      Hint: you're one out of more than seven hundred and thirty million people who can call themselves European.
      You do not represent all of us, and your post was needless trolling.

      The French invented terrible eating habits, and they seem to be thriving.

    7. Re:Mayo Clinic is falling behind by oldhack · · Score: 1

      Serious question: are all Europeans jackasses like you? Any Europeans in house?

      --
      Fuck systemd. Fuck Redhat. Fuck Soylent, too. Wait, scratch the last one.
    8. Re:Mayo Clinic is falling behind by bruthasj · · Score: 1

      Who wants Tang in their Miracle Whip?

  5. It still needs surgery by Shin-LaC · · Score: 1

    This is great news, but I was disappointed to read that they still had to operate in the end. Recently I've read stories about how doctors are reconsidering the need of surgical treatment of prostate cancer in benign cases, due to the bad side effects involved. In particular, prostate surgery has a very high risk of causing impotence. It would be nice if this new method could replace surgery altogether, at least for less severe cases.

    1. Re:It still needs surgery by DeadPixels · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Know what else causes impotence?
      Being dead from cancer.

      True, it would be ideal to have a treatment that doesn't require any surgery, but if your choice is between impotence or death, I think most people will have the operation.

    2. Re:It still needs surgery by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm impotent.

      Don't do it, man. Don't do it.

    3. Re:It still needs surgery by shawb · · Score: 4, Informative

      Usually prostate cancer progresses at such a slow rate that an untreated patient will die of other unrelated causes before the prostrate cancer would kill them, or even cause significant quality of life issues. How many men would choose between impotence and a, say, 1/1000 (no idea if that is the actual chance) of dying earlier?

      Add in another possible side effect of cancer surgery: death. A small but significant number of patients die during prostrate sectioning surgery. Some patients die from sepsis caused by imperfect healing of the incisions (the large intestine is a very icky place, and you don't want what is inside there to get into the rest of the body.) For very mild cases of prostrate cancer, the risk of death due to surgery approaches the risk of death due to the cancer. Adding in other surgical complications involved, often times the best course of action with mild prostrate cancer is a wait and see policy, no matter how much the thought of this scares the patient (other types of cancer are usually "get it out as quick as possible" situations.) While surgery may indeed currently not be the best course of action in mild prostrate cancers, this will likely eventually change. The rates of surgical complications (including death) of course are going to keep going down as advances are made in surgical technique (such as cellular level laparoscopic microscopy allowing the surgeon to identify individual nerves to avoid sectioning, allowing for preservation of bladder control and sexual function.) However, these advanced procedures are indeed quite expensive and I think as a society we will eventually have to start asking whether extending a patients life is worth the financial cost.

      --
      I'll never make that mistake again, reading the experts' opinions. - Feynman
    4. Re:It still needs surgery by rhsanborn · · Score: 1

      Note that the cases cited were unusually aggressive forms of prostate cancer and had a high chance of mortality. So while it may be a very good idea to take the wait and see approach to many kinds of prostate cancer, there is new hope for people with life-threatening, aggressive prostate cancer. Also, possibly hope for similar applications in other cancers that aren't nearly so slow moving.

    5. Re:It still needs surgery by vandelais · · Score: 1

      So if you have non-agressive prostate cancer and could feel better if this works, wouldn't you choose the treatment?

      --
      Game: Player 'Donald J Trump' now has AI skill level 'experimental'.
    6. Re:It still needs surgery by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Know what else causes impotence?

      Being dead from cancer.

      True, it would be ideal to have a treatment that doesn't require any surgery, but if your choice is between impotence or death, I think most people will have the operation.

      Her are some real facts from someone who had the oporation. I,m not impotent just sterile. I dont set to pee. You do have some problems at frist but not for long. By the way sterile at 61 is a good thing.

    7. Re:It still needs surgery by sjames · · Score: 1

      True in many cases, but the cases in TFA were not like that. The cancer had already grown too large to surgically excise, meaning it was far more malignant and that watchful waiting was not an option.

    8. Re:It still needs surgery by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      t I was disappointed to read that they still had to operate in the end.

      Dude, that's where the prostate is. Duh.

    9. Re:It still needs surgery by nbauman · · Score: 3, Informative
      FWIW, I recently sent the following email to a friend with prostate cancer who asked for my advice.

      The most useful parts are the links to the free NEJM articles.

      Note the study that followed men 55-59 with Gleason Grade 6 localized prostate cancer. 15% died from prostate cancer at 15 years. I think that's the number you're looking for.

      They said you can often make a good case for "watchful waiting," essentially no treatment. Good story about the guy who got off the table right before the operation and decided not to have surgery. (They deliberately chose a case where there isn't enough evidence to make an easy decision.)

      Note also that they had 1,200 surgeries with no fatalities, so the surgery is a lot safer than it was in your father's day.

      Dear _______

      The best, most reliable source of information to make a decision on prostate cancer that I ever found is The New England Journal of Medicine. There are 2 problems: (1) It can be difficult reading, although they know patients will be reading some of their articles and they try to edit those articles to be as understandable as possible. I think it's easier to read one difficult article that gives you the information you want than to read ten easy articles that don't. (2) Often in medicine, especially in prostate cancer, they don't have enough scientific evidence to make a clear, easy decision. But if you have to make a difficult decision, it's easier if you at least have the best evidence.

      I remembered 2 articles in the NEJM in particular. One was free online; I'm attaching a PDF of the other. These articles are technical but you should be able to understand them by reading slowly and carefully (as I do). They do a good job of telling you how a doctor thinks about prostate cancer. You can find an explanation of anything you don't understand on Wikipedia. I'm also giving you my own notes that I made when I read the articles, and it might be easier to scan them first for an overview. Your best source of information should be your own doctor, but these articles will help you talk to him.

      One article was a survey of patients and their wives on the outcomes of prostate cancer surgery and radiation. The standard question about prostate cancer surgery is, "What's the probability of sexual impotence?" You assume that you'r going to have the best odds, with a surgeon who does a lot of cases, at a hospital that does a lot of cases. Surgeons (and the American Cancer Society) like to make reassuring claims, so you have to be skeptical about how they define impotence. I got the impression that it was about 50%, and that's what this article reported. However, the results are better for younger patients -- 75-year-old men have low sexual functioning to start with. This article also discusses the problems of urinary incontinence, which as I recall wasn't as much of a problem. There is a basic tradeoff between surgery (radical prostatectomy) and radiation (either external beam radiation or brachytherapy): surgery is more likely to cause urinary problems, radiation is more likely to cause rectal inflammation. This article got a lot of press coverage so you can search Google News for further discussion and explanation.

      The other was a case history of a 55-year old man with a Gleason score of 6 (grade 3+3) who decided in 1996 to get surgery, and then changed his mind at the last minute and walked out of the operating room. He's been followed ever since and the cancer hasn't metastasized. The NEJM likes to give cases that are in the very grey area of the evidence, with the hardest decisions, and this is one of them. They have experts explain the evidence and their thinking behind each option, there isn't any right answer, and any of the options would be a reasonable choice. I've attached a PDF of that article.

      They followed up that article by inviting 3 more advocates for each of the 3 options to argue their case, and then invited readers to vote in an on-line poll. That article is free

    10. Re:It still needs surgery by OhHellWithIt · · Score: 1

      In particular, prostate surgery has a very high risk of causing impotence. It would be nice if this new method could replace surgery altogether, at least for less severe cases.

      Yeah, and if they could develop the surgery-free treatment real fast, that would be great. My prostatectomy is scheduled for next Monday, and I'd be delighted to skip it.

      --
      "Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past." -- George Orwell
    11. Re:It still needs surgery by yabos · · Score: 1

      Maybe you won't die from the prostate cancer but if it metastasizes then you're screwed. Impotence can be cured with hormone replacement therapy. If your cancer spreads then you're done for.

    12. Re:It still needs surgery by shawb · · Score: 1

      Impotence caused by a cut nerve can not be cured with hormones.

      --
      I'll never make that mistake again, reading the experts' opinions. - Feynman
    13. Re:It still needs surgery by operagost · · Score: 1

      Yeah, surgery only ruins your junk, so let's not look for a better alternative. That's why I don't support breast cancer research, either, because mostly old hags who are too old to make babies get it-- just lop those things off and be done with it!

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    14. Re:It still needs surgery by wwphx · · Score: 1

      Uh, not exactly. My wife's father (he wasn't my F-I-L at the time) was diagnosed with prostate cancer. When they operated, they found it had spread to his liver and lungs. A month later they found two or three tumors in his brain. He died eleven days after our wedding.
       
      Maybe prostate cancer is slow, but if it spreads, the others might get you first.

      --
      When you sympathize with stupidity, you start thinking like an idiot.
  6. Smoke up America! by tjstork · · Score: 0

    Look, the study also says that this has applications against lung cancer as well. This is good, because, even if you quit smoking, you don't actually reduce your chances of getting lung cancer.

    --
    This is my sig.
    1. Re:Smoke up America! by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      even if you quit smoking, you don't actually reduce your chances of getting lung cancer

      Every source I've ever seen on this subject says that although ex-smokers have a higher chance of developing lung cancer than do lifelong nonsmokers, they're still less likely to develop lung cancer than are current smokers (of the same age and smoking history, of course.) If you have a citation to the contrary, please give it.

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    2. Re:Smoke up America! by psnyder · · Score: 1

      even if you quit smoking, you don't actually reduce your chances of getting lung cancer.

      The information you got is either wrong or very short sighted.
      Our bodies are not static and unchanging. After you quit smoking it's not like your lungs never change from that state. They may never be as healthy as if you had never smoked, but healthy habits will certainly have an affect on your chances of getting lung cancer.

    3. Re:Smoke up America! by Grym · · Score: 4, Informative

      Look, the study also says that this has applications against lung cancer as well. This is good, because, even if you quit smoking, you don't actually reduce your chances of getting lung cancer.

      That's not true.

      While it is true that previous smokers will always have (if only slightly) a higher lung cancer risk than non-smokers, the relationship is dose-dependent based upon the additive amount of tobacco exposure over time. So, those who quit smoking (particularly those who quit smoking earlier), are less likely to get lung cancer. In fact, one major study found that those who quit smoking before the age of 30 had a lung cancer risk close to the non-smoker group. Those who quit smoking before the age of 50 had about half the risk of those who didn't.

      -Grym

    4. Re:Smoke up America! by maxume · · Score: 1

      Do you stop increasing them?

      I haven't looked closely at such a thing, but I don't have the nicotine itch either.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    5. Re:Smoke up America! by tjstork · · Score: 0, Troll

      The information you got is either wrong or very short sighted.

      I smoke and I've researched this issue into the ground. Its pretty accurate. There's a reason why the "smoking benefits" timeline doesn't have a reduced cancer risk on it. It takes too long for lungs to clean themselves after you quit. It's like asbestos... once those particles get into your lungs, a lot of them are not going to come out. So, quitting smoking now significantly reduces your chances of having a heart attack and stroke, keeps your COPD from getting worse, but, because your lungs are already covered in tar. By the time you go through the decades it takes for your lungs to really clean themselves out, those little particles of doom will have deluded a cell to mutate differently, and you are screwed.

      They don't publicize this, because of course, people will get the idea that you may as well keep smoking because you are going to get cancer no matter what you do, which is pretty true, but, they overlook the heart attacks, COPds and other bad things that can happen.

      --
      This is my sig.
    6. Re:Smoke up America! by SquirrelsUnite · · Score: 4, Informative

      The information you got is either wrong or very short sighted.

      I smoke and I've researched this issue into the ground. Its pretty accurate.

      Good, then it's going to be easy to provide some data.

      There's a reason why the "smoking benefits" timeline doesn't have a reduced cancer risk on it. It takes too long for lungs to clean themselves after you quit.

      I basically know nothing about this but a quick internet search turned up this:

      Stopping smoking can reduce your risk A large number of studies have shown that stopping smoking can greatly reduce the risk of smoking-related cancers.2 And the earlier you stop, the better. The last results from the Doctorsâ(TM) Study show that stopping smoking at 50 halved the excess risk of cancer overall, while stopping at 30 avoided almost all of it.10 However, itâ(TM)s never too late to quit. One study found that even people who quit in their sixties can experience health benefits and gain valuable years of life.30 The effects of stopping vary depending on the cancer. For example, ten years after stopping, a personâ(TM)s risk of lung cancer falls to about half that of a smoker.31 And the increased oral and laryngeal cancer risks practically disappear within ten years of stopping.2 But the risks of bladder cancer are still higher than normal 20 years after stopping.20 Cutting down the number of cigarettes you smoke slightly reduces your risk of lung cancer,32 but youâ(TM)ll only experience the full health benefits if you stop altogether. One study found that even smokers who halved the number of cigarettes they smoked had similar risks of dying from heart disease and only slightly lower risks of dying from cancer.33

      From http://info.cancerresearchuk.org/healthyliving/smokingandtobacco/howdoweknow/ You can actually follow some of the links and the abstracts of the cited studies do say that stopping smoking leads to decreased cancer risk down the line (though usually still higher than non-smokers)

      They don't publicize this, because of course, people will get the idea that you may as well keep smoking because you are going to get cancer no matter what you do, which is pretty true, but, they overlook the heart attacks, COPds and other bad things that can happen.

    7. Re:Smoke up America! by Sensiblemonkey · · Score: 4, Informative

      The information you got is either wrong or very short sighted.

      I smoke and I've researched this issue into the ground. Its pretty accurate.

      You were asked to produce a citation and failed to do so; citing your own research doesn't count for squat.

      Here's a citation I just pulled from the National Cancer Institute's website:

      "Quitting smoking substantially reduces the risk of developing and dying from cancer, and this benefit increases the longer a person remains smoke free. However, even after many years of not smoking, the risk of lung cancer in former smokers remains higher than in people who have never smoked"

      Emphasis placed there by me.

      So, unless you can produce a contrary citation, I think it's pretty safe to say you're a pathetic troll spreading misinformation.

    8. Re:Smoke up America! by siddster · · Score: 4, Informative

      I smoke and I've researched this issue into the ground. Its pretty accurate.

      No you haven't! This is a classic case of data dredging and selective presentation of data. For starters, amongst smokers with small primary lung cancers, smoking cessation is associated with an almost 3-fold reduction in cancer recurrence.
      (annals of internal medicine http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/abstract/119/5/383)

      Not only that, but sustained quitters (14.5 years in this study ... data in the pdf and you'll need a subscription to access it... http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/abstract/142/4/233) had a 2.2 fold reduced incidence of lung cancer if they stayed cigarette free for that duration. Granted, that the risk never came back to baseline but its a far cry from declaring that smoking cessation doesn't reduce cancer mortality.

      Also, smoking cessation dramatically reduces heart disease and stroke mortality. The number one killer of smokers (surprise, surprise!) is not cancer but in fact heart disease. Heart disease is also the leading cause of death in the US with 1 in 3 people dying of heart trouble. Hence, even if the benefits in terms of cancer reduction are modest, smoking cessation considerably reduces the number of people dying.

      Get your facts right!

    9. Re:Smoke up America! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Key word hilighted: halved the excess risk of cancer, in other words, you go from normal%+smoker% risk of cancer to normal%+(smoker%/2) risk of cancer.

      Which is what the grandparent said, only in fewer words.

    10. Re:Smoke up America! by SquirrelsUnite · · Score: 1
      He said

      This is good, because, even if you quit smoking, you don't actually reduce your chances of getting lung cancer.

      Maybe it could mean what you are saying but it certainly wouldn't be my first interpretation.

    11. Re:Smoke up America! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The funny thing is - there is an alternative cancer treatment with natural poisons that inhibit cellular division (so called miotic poisons). One of the strongest is nicotine produced from tobacco.
      There are a few plants even more poisonous than tobacco but they are hard to get. Pure tobacco is easy to get and get nicotine out of tobacco cost pennies. So instead of going through life threatening chemotherapy one can simply use the natural poisons available from tobacco.
      This of cause has nothing to do with smoking where molds and heavy metals are going in our system. If it was only nicotine I'd smoke all day long.

      This alternative treatment has a sound scientific basis, with increasing level of poison in the blood stream the fast metabolism of the cancer cell results in fast accumulation of the poison in the cancer cells which die of, while healthy cells are preserved cause they just haven't had enough time to accumulate enough poison.
      The problem is controlling the level of poison in such a way that cancer cells are killed and healthy cells are not.

  7. Ad for the Mayo clinic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Note that the work was done at the NIH, but the story gives the impression that the work was done mostly at the Mayo clinic.

    1. Re:Ad for the Mayo clinic by carlcmc · · Score: 1

      The treatment of humans was mostly done all at Mayo. I personally work with Dr. Kwon and referred many of my patients for this therapy.

  8. Get a PSA Test by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I am a 48 year old prostate cancer survivor who accidentally ordered a PSA test (simple blood test) which revealed that I had been carrying the slow growing cancer for 10 to 12 years. By the time of my discovery it was quite serious and I opted for surgery which I believe saved my life. While I was 'shopping' for treatments and surgeons, I found many teenagers and early adults with the disease. There has been controversy regarding the PSA test, and the medical establishment seems to not prescribe the test until patients are in their 50's (would have been dead by then). I was young once and never went to the doctor unless I could not function--but I urge you folks in your 20s and 30s to get a PSA test--cheap insurance & your life is worth a minor disruption.

  9. Under the health care plan by sumdumass · · Score: 1

    Under the health care plan currently circulating Washington and mentioned on slashdot earlier, a treatment like this still wouldn't be availible to people under the proposed coverage. It only allows standardized accepted treatments. This means that off label applications wouldn't be covered and you couldn't participate in a program like this until such time it becomes a standard treatment.

    It sounds like this treatment, if it remains competent, has the potential to be a cheaper treatment then surgery as well as being effective in earlier detections and perhaps other cancers as well.

    Regardless of what I like or dislike about the health care plan, exceptions or provisions in any plan need to be in place so normal people can get treatments like this when they become availible- even if they are still experimental and turn out to be a hail marry pass with the hopes of doing something other then the alternative of death.

    1. Re:Under the health care plan by ColdWetDog · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Regardless of what I like or dislike about the health care plan, exceptions or provisions in any plan need to be in place so normal people can get treatments like this when they become available- even if they are still experimental and turn out to be a hail marry pass with the hopes of doing something other then the alternative of death.

      What prompts you to say that? This has been done on exactly two patients. If done on say, one hundred, maybe it helps five and kills the rest. The medical literature is quite full of therapies that held great promise but never lived up to their expectations for one reason or another. We waste an enormous amount of time and money on expensive, dangerous therapies that in the end, don't help patients much, and can hurt more patients then they help. Until and unless we do the real, long term, difficult and boring research (and the comparative research between different therapies) we're going to go off half cocked and fully broke.

      Your attitude, common as it is, is about 1/2 of what is drastically wrong with American healthcare. There is no substitute for good science.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    2. Re:Under the health care plan by carlcmc · · Score: 1

      actually this is incorrect. this reported 2 recent patients. It has been used on 50+ patients in the recent couple of years.

    3. Re:Under the health care plan by SydShamino · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The nation can't afford to fund every experimental or crazy expensive treatment for everyone - we'd go broke. It's a noble goal but just not possible.

      Instead, I see this as an opportunity for private insurance to thrive. I welcome government insurance as it will allow me to disconnect my health care from my employer. But I see an opportunity for a private company to offer supplemental insurance. With no preexisting conditions and, say, $20 a month, you could be covered up to $500,000 for experimental surgeries, out-of-country treatment, or other options for things not covered by your government plan. It lets the rich folks spend their extra money on something.

      And the government can continue to fund research studies, like they probably did this one, so that those too poor or without supplemental insurance have a chance to participate. It's a win-win situation.

      --
      It doesn't hurt to be nice.
    4. Re:Under the health care plan by Hubbell · · Score: 1

      Those 'rich' folks won't have any extra money if government healthcare gets slammed through due to the enormous tax hikes that will be needed to fund it.

    5. Re:Under the health care plan by jabithew · · Score: 1

      It's a big problem in the British National Health Service. Essentially a lot of treatments aren't affordable on socialised healthcare, and so don't get rationed out by National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE). Not necessarily a problem, but if individuals want to try the treatment then they must go private for the whole package, not just buy in the drugs they want. This is because NICE usually rejects treatments because of either their lack of cost-effectiveness (how many good life-hours can be saved per pound) or because of the costs of the side effects. The NHS would have to pay for the side effects.

      The rules are not applied consistently, and what treatment the NHS will pay for depends a lot on where you are, with the most generous being in oil-rich Scotland and it varying significantly with Primary Care Trust (PCT, but the phenomenon is known colloquially as the postcode lottery). The disparity is caused by efficiency of management, the presence of renowned hospitals that can pull in patients and hence funding from outside the PCT and in the case of the different nations, disparity in the funding per head of population.

      Socialised healthcare has many of the pitfalls associated with all government spending, with political interference leading to popular-but-ineffective treatments getting funding priority over cheaper and better programmes (a new cancer treatment that NICE refuses will sometimes be pushed out by the government anyway as a vote-winner, no matter how clinically effective it is, and the money will have to come from far more useful screening programmes). There are other issues to do with patient choice and quality of care (patients find it near impossible to judge whether the local hospital is actually competent at cancer operations, for example). It is no panacea.

      Equally, the current American system sees the average American paying ten times more for healthcare than the average Brit, yet achieving only a similar outcome and without the universal coverage*. To a certain extent it's a personal choice, but the NHS (like the BBC) is more of a national religion than Christianity over here.

      *Can't find the citation for this. Was either a WHO study or the Economist reporting on it. Will look more later.

      --
      All intents and purposes. Not intensive purposes.
    6. Re:Under the health care plan by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      That still doesn't change the gist of my argument - it's still an experimental therapy and needs to be treated as such. Experimental therapies often look promising in the first couple of hundred patients then, somehow, never seem to work as well in the 'real world'. Unintended side effects often take a while to show up. Sometimes the initial patient selection process winnows out the more typical complex patient taking other medications or having other concurrent problems - and the therapy doesn't work well for them.

      We, as a society, need to get over the idea that just because it's new, doesn't necessarily mean it's better.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    7. Re:Under the health care plan by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      The nation can't afford to fund every experimental or crazy expensive treatment for everyone - we'd go broke. It's a noble goal but just not possible.

      Your right but when the disease is too far gone and the medically accepted treatment is death, then what makes the difference if the person doesn't get the treatment because he can't afford the insurance or because the government can't afford the treatment? I mean isn't that what the entire problem is in the first place, people not getting treatments because it costs too much for the treatment and the insurance denies it or because the insurance costs too much and the person cannot afford it?

      Sounds to me like this is nothing but a lateral move and the only difference is going to be the government being involved. Why the fuck do we need that when it won't change anything?

      Instead, I see this as an opportunity for private insurance to thrive. I welcome government insurance as it will allow me to disconnect my health care from my employer. But I see an opportunity for a private company to offer supplemental insurance. With no preexisting conditions and, say, $20 a month, you could be covered up to $500,000 for experimental surgeries, out-of-country treatment, or other options for things not covered by your government plan. It lets the rich folks spend their extra money on something.

      What world are you living in? Do you think if that was possible for $20 it wouldn't be an option right now? I'm seriously doubting you have thought that through much.

      And the government can continue to fund research studies, like they probably did this one, so that those too poor or without supplemental insurance have a chance to participate. It's a win-win situation.

      Wow. Are you saying that right now, the poor and people without insurance get treatment through government studies? Then why do we need government health care if they are already getting the treatment? I don't know, you have just completely confused me. You have went against the entire grain of why people think we need the government health care, talked about a $20 coverage option as if it would magically be possible after government health care when it isn't being offered right now, and then claimed that the poor and under insured would participate in government studies like they already do now.

      It seems like too much smoke and mirrors for me.

    8. Re:Under the health care plan by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Here is what I don't get.

      Under the British system, if they decide not to cover a treatment and you do it privately, you are out of the system for the rest of your life. Under the System circulating congress, you can't have more, that has to be a separate and additional policy charged separately.

      Now what makes the difference between the consumer not being able to pay for the treatment or make their own decisions regarding their health care verses the British or American government doing it. At best, the government should make a minimum acceptable coverage that an insurance company can offer, have it follow the same medicaid/medicare guidelines for treatment, allow policies to go over and above this, and make a stipulation of no disqualifications and no max coverage. If someone needs treatment, can't pay for it and doesn't have insurance, make it a retroactive coverage if the person commits to a 5 year policy. Problem solved, it still a personal choice and you have no problems getting private care outside the government mandates system.

      As for the WHO study, I'm a little cautious about those. They seem to get reported a little different then they actually are and they keep disappearing. I wouldn't be to surprised to find that some of them are more or less propaganda tools and disappear when people start questioning the facts. I don't need to tinfoil hat to know it wouldn't be the first time an international organization was corrupted for personal gain or to achieve some goal counter to reality. The UN is one big example of this.

    9. Re:Under the health care plan by nbauman · · Score: 1
      Under the UK NICE system, they pay for a treatment if it saves life at a cost of about $55,000 a year or less. They make a lot of exceptions.

      http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/03/health/03nice.html

      The New York Times
      December 3, 2008
      The Evidence Gap
      British Balance Gain Against the Cost of the Latest Drugs
      By GARDINER HARRIS

      RUISLIP, England â" When Bruce Hardy's kidney cancer spread to his lung, his doctor recommended an expensive new pill from Pfizer. But Mr. Hardy is British, and the British health authorities refused to buy the medicine. His wife has been distraught.

    10. Re:Under the health care plan by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Lol.. I suppose you already know it's been done on more then two patients. But that doesn't really matter.

      Here is what does matter, when the alternative is death because the condition is too far gone for existing treatments to be reasonably effective, experimental should mean nothing but here is another person to try it on. But if you think that only carefully selected people hand picked by researchers should be able to get these treatments until science has had their way, then please explain to me what the harm is giving someone who is already going to die a little hope for a cure?

      I mean this treatment is off label usage of existing drugs to form another procedure application. It isn't using experimental drugs with unknown side effects, it isn't using cut up and feel around approaches, it isn't near as risky as you are making it to be. But under this new government plan, the default insurance is not allowed to participate in this, something else it isn't able to do is use Viagra in combination with heart medications as a supplement to the heart medications for sexually active patients with heart conditions. Here is something else you can't do which was recently the topic of an Ohio supreme court case in which the Planned parenthood of Cincinnati was cited for it's off label use of the u238 or whatever the day after pill was. When Planned parenthood was using the pill something like up to 2 weeks after the FDA approval terms and extended it's dosage from 20 some to 40 or 60 some days. Under ohio law, you have to follow the FDA approval guidelines for this drug, off label use was restricted, under this policy, it is too. Not that I'm for abortions or anything but crap like that is what this plan limits people to.

      Your attitude, common as it is, is about 1/2 of what is drastically wrong with American healthcare. There is no substitute for good science.

      Perhaps you should read the health car plan and get an idea of what I was talking about. There is no substitute for good science but there is also no reason to tell a person he or she is going to have to die because the common procedure won't work at your stage and the new procedures showing promise are restricted to certain privileged people because the science is superior to your life. Fuck, when death is your only options, even praying to God is a worthy experimental treatment. But when 2 or 10 people got better from X experimental treatment, then there is no reason why it can't be tried too.

    11. Re:Under the health care plan by jabithew · · Score: 1

      the British system, if they decide not to cover a treatment and you do it privately, you are out of the system for the rest of your life.

      That's not quite right. You're out of the system for that particular treatment. If you stop it, you return. Equally, unrelated issues are still covered by the NHS. So if you contract AIDS and want to try a fancy new drug, you'd have to go privately for that. If you contracted TB from your AIDS-weakened immune system then the NHS would treat the TB. If you decided that the fancy new drug was a pile of pants after all and stopped using it, you'd be back in the system entirely.

      --
      All intents and purposes. Not intensive purposes.
    12. Re:Under the health care plan by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Thanks for clarifying that. Turns out I understood a few concepts wrong. When I heard about it, it was over a cancer patient who after paying out of pocket for a drug that was supposedly 3 times as effective, was booted from the system and had to find a way to pay 11000 ero for two or three months treatment before he died.

      The worse part about this is that the people paid into the system all of their lives thinking they were getting proper coverage just to find out that someone is making penny pinching decisions concerning their lives and if the patient attempts to make up the difference, they are booted from the system and in one case charged for treatment to date. Cancer survival rates in Europe itself is dismal but it seems that with universal government health care, you a die more often from cancer then a country without it.

      Back in the 1970's after President Carter screwed up the US economy with his failed foreign and domestic policies, inflation was rampant and seniors who were living from Social security and pensions were running out of money. It took the US government almost 6 years and Reagan's deficit spending in order to start compensating for the amount of inflation we saw. To the date, the purchasing power of SS retirement payments aren't what they were in 1972 or 1975. Now you have the UK NHS threatening to withhold treatment from people who are over weight, who smoke, or do anything else they don't like in order to pinch more pennies. I just don't see how this is good.

      At least with private coverage, I can attempt to find another provider and sue the current one if they pull that crap at the last minute.

  10. One sided report by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    There were 54 patients and only 3 had dramatic response.
    They are hoping that by adjusting the dosage that this
    will improve.
    http://www.minnpost.com/healthblog/2009/06/19/9659

    Ipilimumab failed a prior clinical trial for prostate cancer.
    http://pmid.us/17363537

    and failed a prior clinical trial for skin cancer. Also its
    side effects can include rashes, diarrhea and hepatitis.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ipilimumab

    It would be great if it worked but this is more likely
    one of the numerous "breakthroughs" that never
    pan out.

  11. True, but by Weaselmancer · · Score: 5, Insightful

    How many men would choose between impotence and a, say, 1/1000 (no idea if that is the actual chance) of dying earlier?

    You'd need to have the whole picture before you could make an educated choice.

    I lost my father to prostate cancer a couple of years ago. When it got bad he wanted to die at home. We arranged that for him. I was with him during his last day. I watched him die.

    I can tell you this. It's a life changing event watching someone die from cancer. Most people happily have no idea what it's like. I know though. Tumors up and down your spine, eyedroppers full of synthetic morphine to deal with the pain...it's absolutely unreal. Honestly.

    Believe me, if it came down to it and someone told me today that they'd have to remove everything from my balls to my bellybutton to avoid that fate, I'd go to the table with a smile. I'd happily sit to pee if it meant I could dodge that bullet. Anyone would if they knew what I know.

    Oh yeah, on an unrelated note - people who smoke are bat shit insane. They have absolutely no idea what's at the end of a losing roll of the dice.

    --
    Weaselmancer
    rediculous.
    1. Re:True, but by TheLink · · Score: 1

      OK so you don't die of prostate cancer. But eventually you're going to die of something, and it could be a difference cancer (but very similar ending unfortunately) - in fact if your body is more prone to cancer, the odds are high you will get another cancer even if it's not related to the first one.

      You can dodge bullets. But you can't dodge all of them.

      See: http://www.cdc.gov/men/lcod/index.htm

      Eventually you lose the die roll.

      The people who smoke are not necessarily bat shit insane. They may figure the pleasure is worth the final pain. I don't think it's worth it so I don't smoke.

      We all are building sand castles that will eventually be washed away. Learning to accept that is a good way to have more fun.

      FWIW, I think having a massive heart attack isn't such a bad way to go. Sure it's excruciatingly painful. But it's only excruciatingly painful for 20 minutes or so. Not like needing pain killers for 6 months to put up with cancer chewing up your body and still it's not enough... Unfortunately, the same risk factors for heart attacks tend to raise the risk of getting a stroke which is unpleasant as well especially if it doesn't kill you...

      --
    2. Re:True, but by ShawnX · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I know exactly what you went though, my dad had a very aggressive prostate cancer and seeing him slip away as he did was a horrible experience nobody should ever endure. I will always be forever haunted from those moments and to the last words he said to me during the day before he passed away that night. I am saddened if this treatment is found to be a breakthrough that it has come too late for us who have lost a loved one :`(

      --
      Everyone wants a Tux in their life.
    3. Re:True, but by Weaselmancer · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The people who smoke are not necessarily bat shit insane. They may figure the pleasure is worth the final pain. I don't think it's worth it so I don't smoke.

      Yeah, that's kind of my point. They don't know what the "final pain" actually is. I'll betcha if they did they would feel differently.

      We all are building sand castles that will eventually be washed away. Learning to accept that is a good way to have more fun.

      Oh, I agree completely. We all die. But getting your end prematurely from something that painful...well, sucks.

      My dad was a tournament tennis player and a black diamond downhill skier when he was diagnosed. Cancer took it all from him. Hell, if it wasn't for the cancer he'd probably be playing tennis today.

      --
      Weaselmancer
      rediculous.
    4. Re:True, but by Have+Brain+Will+Rent · · Score: 1

      Thank you for saying that.

      What pisses me off when the subject of prostate cancer and increased funding for research comes up, or subsidizing PSA tests, or... one of the standard responses is that it's a low priority for additional resources because "it's slow growing and you'll likely die of something else first." So it's ok to spend 20 years knowing this thing is growing inside you and that your best hope is that something else kills you first so you don't die an agonizing death. The attitude is mind-boggling and usually seems to come from people seeking to preserve funding for other gender specific cancers.

      And since someone will usually bring it up, yes, I know that PSA tests have a somewhat high rate of false positives - so what, then you follow up with more or other testing to confirm the initial result.

      --
      The tyrant will always find a pretext for his tyranny - Aesop
    5. Re:True, but by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some women that have given birth keep doing it despite how much it hurts.

    6. Re:True, but by shawb · · Score: 1

      I guess my post came off a lot more harsh against people and families suffering from cancer than I intended. I do support early diagnosis, and taking appropriate treatment where determined medically beneficial. It's just that with the current risks, which cases treatment would be beneficial can be hard to determine, so I also support research into better diagnostics in making those decisions. I suppose I did not made it clear enough that I am personally excited by advances in treatment, such as the topic of this article and improved techniques I mentioned which would make the surgical option safer and more effective, therefore an appropriate treatment at earlier stages of the disease when it can be early to know if the cancer will be benign, or the more malignant form you had unfortunately witnessed. I would be very happy if surgery or some other treatment was made safe, effective and affordable enough that it could be used pre-emptively for those who are at a high risk rather than waiting for cancer to take hold in the first place, such as we currently do by attempting to aggressively lower cholesterol levels in those patients who have a high risk for heart attack.

      The comment I made about funding the surgery was a poorly thought through reaction about talks of nationalized health care. I do support society providing funding for treatment where it is likely to provide benefit to the patient in terms of length and/or quality of life, and we have to determine the appropriate mix of public insurance, private insurance, private health savings, and even good natured human charity in helping the sick afford to get better and in helping families prepare for and cope with the disease. I also urge the medical community to find more cost efficient ways to treat patients that have no means of affording top of the line medical services.

      --
      I'll never make that mistake again, reading the experts' opinions. - Feynman
    7. Re:True, but by squoozer · · Score: 1

      Couldn't agree with you more. I watched my Gran die of lung cancer which was no doubt caused by years of smoking. I'm sure it will be the most horrific thing that I have ever seen. The most shocking thing was the lumps that formed on all the lymph nodes they are a picture I can't get out of my head. You would, I agree, have to be totally insane to regularly do something that is known to have a high risk of giving you cancer.

      --
      I used to have a better sig but it broke.
  12. Good news... by Mashiki · · Score: 1

    Hey guys...get your ass checked!

    Seriously. Not joking here, if you think that this shit won't kill you hard and fast you need a reality check. Get it young, you're probably going to die. Get it when you're older, probably going to live.

    --
    Om, nomnomnom...
    1. Re:Good news... by Mauzl · · Score: 4, Funny

      Your statement combined with your signature is rather disturbing...

    2. Re:Good news... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey guys...get your ass checked!

      Seriously. Not joking here, if you think that this shit won't kill you hard and fast you need a reality check. Get it young, you're probably going to die. Get it when you're older, probably going to live.

      For those who are confused after parsing the above, the "it" in "Get it" refers to "prostate cancer", not "checked out".

    3. Re:Good news... by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      I was aiming for funny after 3hrs of sleep, guess I missed my mark. *bada-bish*

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
  13. Not so! by mac1235 · · Score: 1

    Actually, our immune system changed a lot once we started living in cities. I don't know how good it is compared to other creatures, but it's improved a lot recently.

  14. Don't be saddened by it by Weaselmancer · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I am saddened if this treatment is found to be a breakthrough that it has come too late for us who have lost a loved one

    Rejoice. For two reasons.

    1) Other people will be spared our experience.

    2) We're both genetically predisposed to prostate cancer, which means that this cure may help us someday. We might dodge the bullet. As a father myself I know I'd rather get cancer than my son. Easy decision. Maybe our Dads would feel the same way. "At least my son doesn't have to have this."

    --
    Weaselmancer
    rediculous.
  15. Re:True, but Suicide is Painless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sung to the tune of the "MASH" Theme ...
    The Game-Of-Life is Hard to Play
    You're Going to Lose it Anyway
    The Losing Card You'll Someday Lay
    And so Here's What I Have to Say:

    That Suicide is Painless
    It Brings on Many Changes
    Yes I Can Take or Leave it If I Chose!!!

  16. Re:Who would have thought ? by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

    What? Cancer and flatulence? No, I just read an interesting summary about somehow fighting cancer with gasoline and pilot lights.

    I like articles I can understand:

    The idea: use androgen ablation or hormone therapy to ignite an immune approach â" a pilot light â" and then, after a short interval of hormone therapy, introduce an anti-CTLA-4 antibody that acts like gasoline to this pilot light and overwhelms the cancer cells.'

    So they're burning cancer with gasoline and pilot lights. I'd expect this to get more refined, like maybe they'll use lighter fluid and a zippo?

  17. Prostate cancer by UroMed · · Score: 1

    http://www.uromed.gr/ Prostate cancer is the leading cancer diagnosis and the second most common cause of cancer-related death in men in the United States. Worldwide, prostate cancer is the fourth most common cancer in men, with incidence and mortality rates that vary markedly among and within different countries. Since the early 1990s, new screening tests and improved treatments have been associated with dramatic shifts in the incidence, stage at diagnosis, and mortality of this disease. Major advances in molecular biology and epidemiology have provided new insights into the etiology and biology of prostate cancer. These developments promise to transform our understanding of this disease and will likely lead to new and better ways to prevent and treat prostate cancer in the foreseeable future. Worldwide Prostate cancer is the fourth most common male malignancy worldwide. Incidence and mortality rates vary tremendously among countries, similar to the variations seen among distinct ethnic groups in the United States. Incidence and mortality rates are generally higher in Western countries than in developing countries. Scandinavian countries have a particularly high rate of prostate cancer diagnosis and death compared with southern European countries. Prostate cancer mortality, for example, is twice as high in Norway as in Spain (24 per 100,000 compared with 13 per 100,000) (Landis et al, 1998; 1999). Asian countries, notably Japan and China, have some of the lowest prostate cancer incidence and mortality rates in the world. Prostate cancer mortality in Japan between 1992 and 1995 was 4 per 100,000 (Landis et al, 1998; 1999). There are multiple complex causes for the worldwide and ethnic variations in prostate cancer incidence. The two major factors are genetics and environment. Epidemiologic studies show that men of African heritage have a high incidence of prostate cancer across the Americas. The prostate cancer incidence in Jamaica, for example, is estimated at 305 per 100,000 (Glover et al, 1998a; 1998b). Although it is possible that this increased incidence can be attributed to shared environmental risks across nations, it is more likely that Africans have a genetic predisposition to developing clinical prostate cancer. This hypothesis is also supported by a report showing that prostate cancer incidence in Nigerian men is similar to that seen in African American men (Osegbe, 1997). The putative genetic causes for this increased susceptibility to prostate cancer are described later in this chapter. Environment also plays an important role in modulating prostate cancer risk around the world. Japanese and Chinese men in the United States have a higher risk of developing and dying from prostate cancer than do their relatives in Japan and China (Muir et al, 1991; Shimizu et al, 1991). Likewise, prostate cancer incidence and mortality have increased in Japan as the country has become more Westernized (Landis et al, 1998). It is important to note, however, that Asian-American men have a lower prostate cancer incidence than white or African-American men, indicating that genetics still plays an important role in determining prostate cancer predisposition. As in the United States, prostate cancer incidence has increased in many countries since the early 1990s. Although much of this increase, as discussed later, can be correlated with the introduction of widespread PSA testing, some of the increase predates prostate cancer screening. In the southeastern Netherlands, prostate cancer incidence increased from 36 per 100,000 in 1971 to 55 per 100,000 in 1989 (Post et al, 1998; 1999). After PSA was introduced in 1990, incidence increased further to 80 per 100,000. Similar increases were reported in Denmark despite the absence of extensive prostate cancer screening. Incidence increased from 11.5 per 100,000 in 1943 to 30.9 per 100,000 (Brasso et al, 1998; Brasso & Iverson, 1999). These findings suggest that some of the worldwide increase in prostate cancer incidence reflects a true increase in the number of patients with clinical prostate cancer, rather than a simple result of increased detection. http://www.uromed.gr/