NSA To Build 20-Acre Data Center In Utah

But will it run Linux? by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-01 23:58 · Score: 0

That's all I want to know.

Re:But will it run Linux? by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-02 00:03 · Score: 2, Funny

No. What you are used to refer to as the Storm botnet, is really just NSA Maryland running on Windows machines.
Re:But will it run Linux? by PitaBred · 2009-07-02 03:49 · Score: 1

Naah, the NSA wants nothing to do with Linux...

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American Money, American Land, American Calls by freedom_india · 2009-07-02 00:02 · Score: 4, Insightful

Knowing what NSA does, this Super Data Center would be used to spy, filter and record all the calls redirected it to by AT&T.
So, now we have an American agency, operating within America, and recording American telephone conversations without oversight of law.
And we have the galls to say USSR was a spy country...
Wonders will never cease!

--
"Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer

Re:American Money, American Land, American Calls by slashqwerty · 2009-07-02 00:24 · Score: 2, Insightful

Assuming a typical server uses 500W this data center would house 130,000 servers.
Re:American Money, American Land, American Calls by oodaloop · 2009-07-02 00:51 · Score: 5, Insightful

You don't need supercomputers for handling AT&T's data. You need them for decrypting foreign signals. You know, their mission and stuff.

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Tic-Tac-Toe, Global Thermonuclear War, and relationships all have the same winning move.
Re:American Money, American Land, American Calls by Jurily · 2009-07-02 01:04 · Score: 2, Funny

So, now we have an American agency, operating within America, and recording American telephone conversations without oversight of law.
And no manpower to do anything useful with it.
Re:American Money, American Land, American Calls by BDPrime · 2009-07-02 01:17 · Score: 3, Interesting

That's assuming every watt that goes into the data center gets to the IT load. Though it says in the documents for the facility that they're going to make it energy efficient, power still needs to be used for air conditioning, redundancy, facility lighting, security, etc. Assuming a PUE of 1.5 (PUE is total facility power divided by IT load), which is very efficient, you're talking about 85,000 servers.
But even that assumes all the IT load will be for servers. Certainly there will be power going to servers, network switches, etc., so the total would be lower than that. And if the NSA is using any larger servers (which considering its history, it most likely is), the number could be substantially lower than that. The average power consumption for a TOP10 supercomputer in 2008, for example, is about 1.3 megawatts, which in itself equals 2,600 500-watt servers.
Re:American Money, American Land, American Calls by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-02 01:40 · Score: 0

It's the new intersect! Quick, someone shoot Chuck Bartowski!
Re:American Money, American Land, American Calls by rgviza · 2009-07-02 01:40 · Score: 4, Interesting

Of course this is assuming no one on AT&T makes international calls, or no one internationally calls US AT&T customers, like terrorists contacting a cell that is operating here.
This is probably a small percentage of AT&T's calls... however, if they had any sense the terrorists would get those Go phones that don't require ID to purchase and activate, so yea, it's likely AT&T isn't very interesting to the NSA. But I'm also pretty sure that NSA would never underestimate the stupidity of extremists since you need to be pretty retarded to blow yourself up in the name of a religion that's been twisted to make violence OK.
Truth be told, nobody really knows what NSA does but NSA and possibly the president so anyone here is talking out of their ass because they don't work there. If they did, they won't be much longer ;)

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Re:American Money, American Land, American Calls by MikeBabcock · 2009-07-02 01:54 · Score: 2, Insightful

Its amazing to me that even after major legal issues being brought up in the news and by Congress, that even after the president has to pardon phone companies and the like to retroactively avoid further legal issues for domestic spying, people like the anonymous moron above still think it requires a tinfoil hat to believe the American government is spying on perfectly innocent people as part of a huge dragnet scam wasting taxpayer money.
Imagine spending all that domestic spy money on the health care reforms you supposedly can't afford.

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- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
Re:American Money, American Land, American Calls by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-02 02:09 · Score: 0

You don't need supercomputers for handling AT&T's data. You need them for decrypting foreign signals. You know, their mission and stuff.
The NSA's mission is securing the nation's communications, something you would have known if you googled for "NSA mission" (even if you were feeling lucky.) Maybe you should just quit while you're way, way, WAY behind? Kind of pathetic that you got modded up to +5 when you are WRONG.
The parent to your post is correct, something you would know had you ever worked there. You, however, would much rather be Olberman's and Stewart's Bobblehead, agreeing with them only as long as they let you stop smoking their respective poles as they issue left-wing talking points to get up the ire of an ignorant populace. You ass-rods have no idea of what goes on in our "spy" agencies, and you don't need or have the right to know.
Re:American Money, American Land, American Calls by PopeRatzo · 2009-07-02 02:15 · Score: 3, Interesting

Interesting that the NSA picked Utah for these "data centers". There's been a very interesting history of the confluence of the intelligence community, mormonism and the "wandering bishops".
I highly recommend historian Peter Levenda's excellent book on the subject (as well as other fascinating subjects), Sinister Forces - A Grimoire of American Political Witchcraft.
But if you read it, prepare to lose some sleep.

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You are welcome on my lawn.
Re:American Money, American Land, American Calls by oodaloop · 2009-07-02 02:15 · Score: 3, Informative

If you bothered to read past the first couple of words on the link you posted, you might have noticed it ALSO said, "and to produce foreign signals intelligence information." And the first bullet says, "Collect (including through clandestine means), process, analyze, produce, and disseminate signals intelligence information and data for foreign intelligence and counterintelligence purposes to support national and departmental missions."

Which is what I said. Your sig is pathetically ironic. Fucking retard.

--
Tic-Tac-Toe, Global Thermonuclear War, and relationships all have the same winning move.
Re:American Money, American Land, American Calls by stewbacca · 2009-07-02 02:18 · Score: 1

Sweeping statements are not necessarily correct statements. For example, this statement is completely incorrect: "without oversight of law." United States Signals Intelligence Directive 18 (Intelligence Oversight), clearly outlines the limitations against collecting against and maintaining recordings of US Persons.
Re:American Money, American Land, American Calls by stewbacca · 2009-07-02 02:22 · Score: 3, Interesting

Actually, he was right. The NSA has multiple missions. The collection and decryption of signals (voice and non-voice) is one mission, making the guy you are trying to rip correct. You are also correct, as another mission of the NSA is to prevent foreign agencies from intercepting and decrypting our signals (voice and non-voice). There are a few more missions that you are conveniently leaving out in your zeal to look smarter than you might actually be in this instance.
Re:American Money, American Land, American Calls by stewbacca · 2009-07-02 02:23 · Score: 1

Even in your own link it is clear to see that you are citing the Information Assurance mission, and oodaloop is citing the Signals Intelligence mission.
Re:American Money, American Land, American Calls by magbottle · 2009-07-02 02:25 · Score: 1

You don't need supercomputers for handling AT&T's data.
You need them for real-time mass voice recognition, keyword search and analysis.
Re:American Money, American Land, American Calls by stewbacca · 2009-07-02 02:33 · Score: 1

Do they ever sleep? It's hard to sleep when you think the government is out to get you.
Re:American Money, American Land, American Calls by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-02 02:34 · Score: 0

If there is one thing I'm certain of, it's that I DON'T KNOW what the NSA's mission EXACTLY is!!!!!
And NEITHER DO YOU!!!!
Re:American Money, American Land, American Calls by swb · 2009-07-02 02:45 · Score: 1

Ha! That's the first thing I thought of -- LDS linguists as intelligence moles at the NSA, able (required?) to report back to the LDS leadership council what they find.
FWIW, I have had a great time in Utah. Despite their weird liquor laws, I never had any problem buying or getting served liquor in any restaurant. The roads were good, the skiiing better, and almost no riffraff to be found late night in SLC.
I don't care how many wives they have, as long as they're not porking 15 year olds.
Re:American Money, American Land, American Calls by u-235-sentinel · 2009-07-02 02:47 · Score: 1

Knowing what NSA does, this Super Data Center would be used to spy, filter and record all the calls redirected it to by AT&T.
So, now we have an American agency, operating within America, and recording American telephone conversations without oversight of law.
And we have the galls to say USSR was a spy country...
Wonders will never cease!
You are mistaken. You are operating under the assumption that we're a nation of laws.

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Re:American Money, American Land, American Calls by gandhi_2 · 2009-07-02 02:53 · Score: 3, Informative

...or: Utah and Mormonism are almost synonymous. Mormons go on their "missions" from age 19 to 20 to convert more mormons. MANY of them must learn a foreign language to do it. So Utah ends up with the best linguist pool in the nation. So they get a couple NG linguist units to utilize the pool. Their "moral" lifestyle makes them more likely to get TS clearances than most Americans....and bingo. Linguists + TS clearance = NSA ties.

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THL phish sticks
Re:American Money, American Land, American Calls by MiniMike · 2009-07-02 03:08 · Score: 1

Knowing what NSA does, this Super Data Center would be used to spy, filter and record all the calls redirected it to by AT&T. So, now we have an American agency, operating within America, and recording American telephone conversations without oversight of law.
Turn this to your advantage. Whenever you're away from home, call the NSA and ask if you have any messages.
Re:American Money, American Land, American Calls by haifastudent · 2009-07-02 04:08 · Score: 0

Knowing what NSA does, this Super Data Center would be used to spy, filter and record all the calls redirected it to by AT&T. So, now we have an American agency, operating within America, and recording American telephone conversations without oversight of law. And we have the galls to say USSR was a spy country... Wonders will never cease!
Making up your own hypothetical situation and then comparing a non-existant entity to that situation is not a way to make a body look bad. It only makes you look childish.

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Re:American Money, American Land, American Calls by Voyager529 · 2009-07-02 04:32 · Score: 1

You don't need supercomputers for handling AT&T's data. You need them for decrypting foreign signals. You know, their mission and stuff.
Chloe O'Brien does all that and more for Jack Bauer on a Mac and a few Dell servers in minutes. I want my tax dollars back!
Re:American Money, American Land, American Calls by bgspence · 2009-07-02 05:05 · Score: 1

So if part of the mission is to "Collect (including through clandestine means), process, analyze, produce, and disseminate signals intelligence information and data for foreign intelligence and counterintelligence purposes to support national and departmental missions", then listening to all our domestic communications "for foreign intelligence and counterintelligence purposes to support national and departmental missions" might also be included in their charter.
Thats why they are listening to us all right now. Not to worry. They are on our side. And what do we have to hide?
Re:American Money, American Land, American Calls by oodaloop · 2009-07-02 05:18 · Score: 1

Except that it's Intelligence Oversight and illegal. Now, I understand they've been doing stuff like this, and I do not support it. But making it part of their official charter would be difficult as long as the current Intelligence Oversight laws are still in place.

--
Tic-Tac-Toe, Global Thermonuclear War, and relationships all have the same winning move.
Re:American Money, American Land, American Calls by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-02 05:29 · Score: 0

They can intercept and listen into any communications that they want and it's perfectly legal under FISA. They only need a warrant if they want to keep the intercepts for more than 72 hours.
Re:American Money, American Land, American Calls by freedom_india · 2009-07-02 05:41 · Score: 1

Right.... and the same law was used to prevent Bush and now Obama from spying on Americans...

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"Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer
Re:American Money, American Land, American Calls by Teancum · 2009-07-02 08:57 · Score: 1

Ha! That's the first thing I thought of -- LDS linguists as intelligence moles at the NSA, able (required?) to report back to the LDS leadership council what they find.
If only the LDS Church were that efficient. BTW, I am curious about what "LDS leadership council" you are referring to here? The one headed by Warren Jeffs? I thought so.
Re:American Money, American Land, American Calls by Teancum · 2009-07-02 09:08 · Score: 1

You are mistaken. You are operating under the assumption that we're a nation of laws.
I have to assume that you are:
1) American
2) Have never lived for substantial periods of time somewhere other than in North America (and possibly the more stable parts of Europe)
I say this because in spite of all of the problems that the USA has, and the inward naval gazing that often seems to happen from time to time like this article, the USA is a nation of laws that for the most part seem to work, where most people generally are treated equally in the law. Also, most law enforcement people that I've met, in spite of some abusive individuals who do cross the line from time to time, generally are professionals in the true sense of the word and stay within the rules they are given.
If you lived somewhere else and had to experience watching a guy with a sub-machine gun walk next to you and wonder if you are going to live until tomorrow... you might have a very different attitude about what a nation of laws really could be like. Worse yet, experiencing a general strike (where the citizens go on strike against the government.... not a pretty thing to behold) is something that I hope to never be in again for as long as I live. Such an event wouldn't even begin to be considered by the average U.S. citizen.
We, as American citizens (I am an American) do have control over our government and can stop many of these abuses from happening. It is, however, why elections matter and why you need to get involved politically if you have concerns about these problems. By refusing to be involved, you are letting those who are left to take the reins and ignore your apathy.
Re:American Money, American Land, American Calls by stewbacca · 2009-07-02 12:12 · Score: 1

I didn't say it PREVENTS Bush and Obama from anything. I said it OUTLINES the limitations. In other words, it is complete BS to say there is no oversight, when there clearly is (USSID 18).
Re:American Money, American Land, American Calls by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-02 19:18 · Score: 0

Talking about religion has been twisted to make violence OK, you should consider looking at the fundamentalist Christians in the US (like Bush and at least 50% of other Americans) who think that it is justified to star wars in other countries and kill thousands of innocent people in the name of "freedom"... but I guess those innocent people don't count because they are heathens.
What would you do if your country was invaded by another country, and most of your family was killed, and you had no way of fighting back?
Re:American Money, American Land, American Calls by oodaloop · 2009-07-02 20:08 · Score: 1

Going to make any attempt to justify your ignorance, hypocracy, and general douche-baggery? Hmm?

--
Tic-Tac-Toe, Global Thermonuclear War, and relationships all have the same winning move.
Re:American Money, American Land, American Calls by PopeRatzo · 2009-07-03 02:07 · Score: 1

I don't care how many wives they have, as long as they're not porking 15 year olds.
Like their founder, Joseph Smith, you mean?
Of course, the usual explanation is "It was a different time, and porking 15 year-olds was OK back then."
Still...

--
You are welcome on my lawn.
Re:American Money, American Land, American Calls by swb · 2009-07-03 04:11 · Score: 1

It was a different time back then. You could kill a man for stealing your horse and people looked down on you if you didn't.

So... by captainpanic · 2009-07-02 00:03 · Score: 4, Funny

The secret service builds a datacenter and announces that in mainstream media?

It will be a very large data center.
It will be important.
It will be secret.
And it will be located at Utah's Camp Williams.

That's very amicable to other secret services. Saves them some searching. :D

Re:So... by maxwell+demon · 2009-07-02 00:17 · Score: 2, Insightful

Well, maybe the true secret datacenter is built somewhere else. The best way to prevent you from searching for it is when you believe you already know where it is.

--
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-02 00:27 · Score: 0

Who said that it really will there? Just because you read it does not make it so. Why was carnivore used when it should be obvious to all that we had MUCH more invasive procedures in place? Heck, the argument for Callea was that we did not have spying capability. Yet, all of our American spying capability was set up under Clinton (and before).
Re:So... by L4t3r4lu5 · 2009-07-02 00:33 · Score: 2, Insightful

Finding it on a map is easy.

Getting into it surreptitiously will either be:

a) Extraordinarily difficult, or
b) a) + life threatening.

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Re:So... by TheRaven64 · 2009-07-02 00:38 · Score: 2, Funny

Finding a 20-acre facility with satellite imaging is not hard. Finding a building site that is goign to turn in to a 20-acre facility is pretty trivial even without satellite imaging.

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I am TheRaven on Soylent News
Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-02 00:40 · Score: 0

I'm surprised it wasn't Joe Biden making the announcement. I hear he likes to disclose the locations of secret things.
Re:So... by AHuxley · 2009-07-02 00:46 · Score: 1

Try taking pics from public land :)
One tip dont use your own car :)

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Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
Re:So... by Opportunist · 2009-07-02 00:50 · Score: 4, Funny

"Surveillance only tells us that they don't store the data on the rooftop"
(ok, it's from a rather lame Simpsons episode, but I'm sure some will get the reference)

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Re:So... by Opportunist · 2009-07-02 00:53 · Score: 4, Insightful

How about some stealth? Paint GOOGLE onto the sides of your cars and be very blatant about taking pics and nobody will think of anything.
It's like breaking into a warehouse. You don't use flashlights and sneak about. You turn on the store lights and walk around like you belong there and nobody will think of anything ill.

--
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Re:So... by arb+phd+slp · 2009-07-02 01:06 · Score: 4, Insightful

It's kindof hard to hide the massive power transmission infrastructure, also. You don't just "hide" a facility that has that much electricity coming from civilian sources going into it.

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Re:So... by patro · 2009-07-02 01:13 · Score: 1

The secret service builds a datacenter and announces that in mainstream media?
It can be a ploy to divert public attention from other more important clandestine projects to this decoy.
Re:So... by camperdave · 2009-07-02 01:14 · Score: 5, Funny

Well, maybe the true secret datacenter is built somewhere else. The best way to prevent you from searching for it is when you believe you already know where it is.

Well yes, obviously it's a decoy. The NSA knows that we would immediately jump to the conclusion that this is a decoy, and start looking elsewhere. In fact, they're counting on it. They want us looking elsewhere so that they can install their top secret datacentre hardware in Utah.

Except... why make it so conspicuously obvious. They make a show about building this datacentre, so we would look elsewhere. We know that they want us to look anywhere but their decoy, so we look at the decoy. While we're busy looking at the decoy, they build elsewhere. Clever.

However, they've got to know that there's enough people to look at both the new datacentre and all the other sites. Something else is going on. They've got scurrying around like ants, looking for this "true" datacentre. We're focused on the ground. We're focused on the NSA. This isn't about NSA datacentres. This is about CIA satellites.

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Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-02 01:19 · Score: 0

Scrub
Re:So... by 228e2 · 2009-07-02 01:30 · Score: 1

Well, now you're simply stalling! Pick a drink! erm, location!

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Re:So... by joebagodonuts · 2009-07-02 01:33 · Score: 1

...and black helicopters

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Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-02 01:45 · Score: 0

Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.
Re:So... by elrous0 · 2009-07-02 01:52 · Score: 3, Funny

Announcing that they have a backup data center for all our phone calls and emails is their way of saying "Sure, we're totalitarians--but at least we're COMPETENT totalitarians."

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SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
Re:So... by cowscows · 2009-07-02 01:56 · Score: 3, Insightful

Also carry a clipboard. Nobody will question a guy taking notes on a clipboard.

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One time I threw a brick at a duck.
Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-02 02:13 · Score: 0

So, clearly I cannot choose the data center in front of me...
Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-02 02:21 · Score: 0

I know it must hurt for you to realize that what you thought you were buying and what you were actually sold were 2 different things...
Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-02 02:37 · Score: 0

You must be Sicilian! INCONCEIVABLE!
Re:So... by aaarrrgggh · 2009-07-02 03:46 · Score: 1

Not really. Keep it close to industrial sites and it isn't hard at all. A couple of projects I am working on are easily 30MW services. What gets hard is breaking the loads into enough pieces that you can't get any real information from tracking the power demand, which requires significant on-site generation and stored energy.
Looking at one of my clients annual time-of-use power data, I can quickly tell how their business is doing and what kind of anomalies and business spikes they have. It becomes much harder when you have to correlate multiple data sources with truly random power cycles.
On-site generation helps some, but the cooling towers or stacks give away how much load you are supporting.
When you do load recording at classified sites, usually you can only use a thermal tape recorder, nothing electronic for just this reason. (Well, there are TEMPEST concerns as well, but that is another matter...)
Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-02 03:47 · Score: 0

Oh so that's what I've been doing wrong all this time!
Re:So... by Garridan · 2009-07-02 04:10 · Score: 1

Not really that difficult, really. The trick is to go in conspicuously. For the most part, the background checks only go back 7 years or so -- not that hard to keep clean for 7 years. That, or go medieval on their asses, and just pay a disaffected NSA agent.
Re:So... by Daemonax · 2009-07-02 04:13 · Score: 1

A businessman meets a rival at a train station and asks him where he's going. The second businessman says he's going to Minsk. The first one replies, "You're telling me you're going to Minsk because you want me to think you're going to Pinsk. But I happen to know that you are going to Minsk. So why are you lying to me?"
Re:So... by bannerman · 2009-07-02 04:17 · Score: 1

I clearly cannot choose the wine in front of me!

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I keep forgetting my place. Jesus is for losers. Why do I still play to the crowd?
Re:So... by Opportunist · 2009-07-02 04:49 · Score: 1

If someone gets suspicious, walk straight up to him with that "can I interest you in Amnesty International" look on your face. You'll be left in peace, people will actually go out of their way to go out of your way.

--
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-02 05:05 · Score: 0

And risk being sued for trademark infringement by Google? I don't think so!
Re:So... by Xypheri · 2009-07-02 06:21 · Score: 1

You'd like to think that, wouldn't you? You've beaten my giant, which means you're exceptionally strong, so you could've put the poison in your own goblet, trusting on your strength to save you, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But, you've also bested my Spaniard, which means you must have studied, and in studying you must have learned that man is mortal, so you would have put the poison as far from yourself as possible, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.
Re:So... by spikedvodka · 2009-07-02 07:26 · Score: 1

I am truly impressed with the number of "Princess Bride" references in this thread

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I will not give in to the terrorists. I will not become fearful.
Re:So... by evilviper · 2009-07-02 08:08 · Score: 1

You don't just "hide" a facility that has that much electricity coming from civilian sources going into it.
You don't "hide" a secret facility at all, in the traditional sense of out and out pretending it doesn't exist. You simply create a COVER STORY. Something plausible which explains why they need the power, and why you don't get to take a tour...

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Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
Re:So... by funky49 · 2009-07-02 09:08 · Score: 1

Also, eat yogurt while you are wandering around. Just like Michael Westin from Burn Notice. :)

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--- rapper/producer/bachelorette party stripper
Re:So... by Teancum · 2009-07-02 09:19 · Score: 1

Camp Williams is a big place, and it should be noted that about two-thirds of Utah is federal property of one sort or another (including quite a bit of land around Camp Williams). Quite a bit of the nearby property is even formally controlled by the Department of Defense, most of which is usually considered to be otherwise wilderness.
What I'm trying to say here is that by saying something is located at Utah's Camp Williams is about like saying a secret military installation is located in New England. It covers about the same amount of territory with other similar "restricted" territory that you must get military permission to enter. The 9/11 hijackers would have run out of fuel over the Great Salt Lake trying to find the place.
Re:So... by skarphace · 2009-07-02 09:19 · Score: 1

Any chance you'd be willing to share what you do?

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Bullish Machine Tzar
Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-02 10:13 · Score: 0

Finding it on a map is easy.
Getting into it surreptitiously will either be:
a) Extraordinarily difficult, or
b) a) + life threatening.
That's assuming the goal is to obtain access at all, rather than to simply destroy it or cripple its' operations.
A large semi-truck & trailer under MythBusters-type remote control loaded with a massive (~65,000-pounds) diesel/fertilizer bomb detonated next to the data center might put a serious crimp in surveillance operations.
Re:So... by Nefarious+Wheel · 2009-07-02 11:15 · Score: 1

Well yes, obviously it's a decoy. The NSA knows that we would immediately jump to the conclusion that this is a decoy, and start looking elsewhere. In fact, they're counting on it. They want us looking elsewhere so that they can install their top secret datacentre hardware in Utah.
You've heard about Plato? Socrates? Imbiciles!
...Ah hahaha!!! AH HAH... (thump)

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Re:So... by cusco · 2009-07-02 12:07 · Score: 1

Too much work. Why bother with the facility when you can buy a second-hand deer rifle on Craig's List and shoot up the electrical substation from a quarter-mile away? Almost all of the big transformers are special-order custom made devices with order times ranging from three months to a year. The utility will probably keep one spare of each, but since they cost a great honkin' pile of money they won't have two. Shoot it up, and in a week when they've cleaned up the hazardous waste spill and installed the spare come back and do it again. In the meantime shoot out insulators on the high tension lines feeding the substation as well.
Slightly more difficult is to take out the data lines feeding the place. Again, low tech is best so fill an unattended telecom vault with from a stolen Port-A-John pumper truck. Dig up the fiber with a backhoe. Shoot up any lines hung off telephone poles. Pretty much any high-tech infrastructure in rural Utah is going to stick out like a sore thumb.

--
"Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
Re:So... by Hurricane78 · 2009-07-13 14:54 · Score: 1

You're wrong. It's already built for a long time. You forgot the time component in your decoy analysis. ^^

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Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
Re:So... by Hurricane78 · 2009-07-13 14:56 · Score: 1

Hey, you got me an idea! how about shaping your buildings like a giant insect? People will think it's a scanning error. ^^
But more realistically, I would recommend a house like that of Frodo. ;)

--
Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.

Well, now you know... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-02 00:04 · Score: 3, Funny

Well, now you know where your can find those emails you accidentally deleted or forgot to backup. Safely in the hands of god, err, the NSA.

Sixty five megawatts by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-02 00:05 · Score: 2, Funny

65 megawatts of power -- about the same amount used by every home in Salt Lake City

Those must be some big houses. I wonder how much they all use in total!

Re:Sixty five megawatts by Vectronic · 2009-07-02 00:32 · Score: 1

There's a Mormon joke there somewhere.
Re:Sixty five megawatts by arb+phd+slp · 2009-07-02 01:08 · Score: 2, Funny

There's a Mormon joke there somewhere.
They have to store a year's supply of extra electricity in their basement.
How's that?

--
There's a perfect xkcd for my sig but I'm too lazy to look it up. sudo someone go find it.
Re:Sixty five megawatts by morgan_greywolf · 2009-07-02 01:13 · Score: 4, Funny

A Catholic priest went into a barber shop for a haircut. When he was finished, the barber refused to take payment saying, "You are a man of the cloth... this is a free service that I offer to you." The Priest thanked the barber and went on his way. The next morning the barber found seven fishes and seven loaves of bread on his doorstep in gratitude from the priest.
The next week, a Jewish Rabbi went into the same shop for a cut. Again the barber refused payment saying, "You are a man of God... this is a free service that I offer to you." The next morning the barber found a fitting gift from the Rabbi.
The following week, two LDS Missionaries went into the shop for haircuts. Again, the barber refused payment saying, "You work in the service of God... this is a free service that I offer to you." The next morning the barber arrived to find 12 LDS Missionaries on his doorstep.

--
My blog
Re:Sixty five megawatts by riyley · 2009-07-02 01:18 · Score: 1

65 megawatts of power -- about the same amount used by every home in Salt Lake City
Those must be some big houses. I wonder how much they all use in total!
I'm sure they mean every home in Salt Lake City uses a combined 65Mw (per month?), as opposed to every individual home uses 65Mw.
Re:Sixty five megawatts by worip · 2009-07-02 01:23 · Score: 1

Aahhh, but these houses are AMERICAN houses, probably biggest and the most environmentally non-friendly houses on the planet...

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A picture is worth exactly 1024 words.
Re:Sixty five megawatts by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-02 01:32 · Score: 0

You just wish your electricity was as cheap as hours so you can leave your lights on 24x7 like Al Gore does, JACKASS!
Re:Sixty five megawatts by TheRaven64 · 2009-07-02 02:08 · Score: 2, Informative

Wikipedia lists three figures for the population of Salt Lake City, with 'City' 'Urban' and 'Metro' as titles. Dividing 65MW by the smallest of these numbers gives a little more than the average per-capita electricity usage for the USA. It seems like the distinction between the city, the urban area, and the metropolitan area is quite arbitrary; most people seem to refer to the entire metro area as the city. By this metric, the 65W would be under 20% of the domestic electricity supply. Note that this figure also didn't include industrial use. If you've ever looked across SLC and seen the brown haze then you'll have noticed that there is a lot more than just homes consuming power.

--
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
Re:Sixty five megawatts by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-02 02:36 · Score: 0

Sorry mate, but:
WHOOOOOSH!
Re:Sixty five megawatts by stewbacca · 2009-07-02 02:37 · Score: 0, Offtopic

Yes, because having an extra 1,000 sq. feet of air in one's home has a profound impact on the environment of a State that: a) is mostly uninhabited, and b) requires very little air conditioning.
Re:Sixty five megawatts by IorDMUX · 2009-07-02 05:30 · Score: 1

That's because two of the above get paid for what they do, and the third lives much like a graduate student in search of free food. :-p

--
>> Standing on head makes smile of frown, but rest of face also upside down.

Hmm by moogied · 2009-07-02 00:07 · Score: 4, Interesting

Anyone else remember when the announcement of a government facility wasn't met with constant pessimism and assertions of ill-doing? Me either. I suppose thats our job as 'informed' citizens though.. to constantly second guess our government.

--
So basically, -1 troll/offtopic is really slashdots way of saying "I hate that you thought of something before me."

Re:Hmm by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-02 00:29 · Score: 0

I suppose thats our job as 'informed' citizens though.. to constantly second guess our government.
In a democracy... yes, it is!
Re:Hmm by garcia · 2009-07-02 01:16 · Score: 1

I suppose thats our job as 'informed' citizens though.. to constantly second guess our government.
Yes, it is because 99 times out of 100 there is some sort of bullshit going on that will never see the light of day.
Re:Hmm by MadJeff451 · 2009-07-02 01:28 · Score: 1

I suppose thats our job as 'informed' citizens though.. to constantly second guess our government.
Nah, it's our job as avid /. readers to constantly second guess our government. :)
Re:Hmm by QuantumPete · 2009-07-02 01:50 · Score: 1

Not counting the other 99 things that we *don't* hear about. QuantumPete

--
QuantumPete
Re:Hmm by MikeBabcock · 2009-07-02 01:59 · Score: 1

You mean back when the Cold War and other efforts kept the wool over your eyes?
Tom Lehrer said, when he quit doing comedy in 1973, that "political satire became redundant the day Henry Kissinger won the Nobel Peace Prize.

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- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
Re:Hmm by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-02 02:20 · Score: 0

You're right. Those overly-suspicious rabble rousers who started this country just should have STFU and done as they were told by their government.

Obligatory by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-02 00:08 · Score: 0

Now imagine a beowulf cluster of these.....

What does NSA do ? Why do we need CIA ? by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-02 00:14 · Score: 1, Interesting

I always wondered, what NSA does with all that firepower if not listening to citizen conversations ? Are we supposed to believe they do not monitor and listen in any domestic conversations ? Do serious spies talk over a phone about their stuff so NSA can kick their ass ? I thought serious spy business mostly happens in good old fashion way - guy take few papers/copies, hands over the intermediate, they travel to where ever they want to go or encrypt and send electronically. What do we need NSA for ? What do we need CIA for, if all the money we poured in didnt stop bunch of nut jobs from blowing buildings ?

Re:What does NSA do ? Why do we need CIA ? by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-02 01:03 · Score: 0

Well, they can read any text message sent within the USA - got to have some processing power to handle that.
Re:What does NSA do ? Why do we need CIA ? by thedonger · 2009-07-02 01:19 · Score: 4, Informative

First of all, without a security clearance and need-to-know you will never know what the NSA does. And then forget what MSNBC has convinced you is true about the agency; there are very strict rules as to how any "signals" involving US citizens are handled. There is more foreign collection than you could possibly imagine, and that is where they expend most of their power.

--
Help fight poverty: Punch a poor person.
Re:What does NSA do ? Why do we need CIA ? by morgan_greywolf · 2009-07-02 01:20 · Score: 2, Informative

The NSA does signal intelligence. This includes functions such as breaking codes through cryptoanalysis, etc. The CIA is in the 'old-fashioned' spy business. Neither are directly responsible for "stopping nut jobs from blowing up buildings" on home soil: that job, at the time, would have fallen to the FBI, the Federal Marshals, the ATF, and state and local law enforcement. Currently, the agency tasked with this job is the Department of Homeland Security.
Besides, we know from media accounts that the CIA and NSA both informed the White House and the FBI about Al Qaeda's plans, but they were roundly ignored.

--
My blog
Re:What does NSA do ? Why do we need CIA ? by stewbacca · 2009-07-02 02:45 · Score: 3, Informative

Are we supposed to believe they do not monitor and listen in any domestic conversations ?

Yes you are. And you should read USSID 18 while you are at it and see for yourself that their are specific restrictions against listening in on domestic conversations. You will also learn that it requires a warrant granted by the Attorney General (not the Director of the NSA, not the President, not a mythical National Security Czar, Not Your Mom).
Re:What does NSA do ? Why do we need CIA ? by oblivionboy · 2009-07-02 02:47 · Score: 1

I presume you are telling us this because you have the security clearance to know so.
Re:What does NSA do ? Why do we need CIA ? by stewbacca · 2009-07-02 02:49 · Score: 1

their=there
Re:What does NSA do ? Why do we need CIA ? by stewbacca · 2009-07-02 02:52 · Score: 2, Informative

Well said. There are enough open source sources out their for even the most intellectually challenged to figure out what the NSA does. These fools on here who think they know what the NSA does are simply that--fools.
Here's a declassified version of the restrictions against collecting on US Persons, for example. This alone debunks 99% of the stupid comments that always pop-up in any NSA related thread. http://cryptome.org/nsa-ussid18.htm
Re:What does NSA do ? Why do we need CIA ? by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-02 05:13 · Score: 0

And rules are always followed, right?
Might want to look into the statements made by the whistleblower who first came public about the AT&T connections.
Re:What does NSA do ? Why do we need CIA ? by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-02 05:19 · Score: 0

Just because it's illegal doesn't mean it's not happening.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/16/politics/16program.html
Delusional to the last.
Re:What does NSA do ? Why do we need CIA ? by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-02 07:43 · Score: 0

What if my mom is the Attorney General?

In Soviet Russia.... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-02 00:15 · Score: 0

Oh, wait...

The Answer by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-02 00:15 · Score: 0, Troll

200 acres? 65 megawatts? Ah ha! So that's how many computers you have to join together to make Vista not run slowly.

In fact, by WindBourne · 2009-07-02 00:16 · Score: 4, Insightful

We should be decentralizing a number of federal operations. For example, the Smithsonian should be broken apart and distributed around the nation. It is a JEWEL that must be preserved. Having much of our gov. in one location is a disaster in the making. It is OK to put the HEADS of organizations in DC, but the works should be distributed. Basically, we should get to the point, where all major organizations have no more than 1000 ppl in DC. Some exception should be made such as pentagon, congress, etc, but things like Health, EPA, can and should be spread about.

--
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.

Re:In fact, by egcagrac0 · 2009-07-02 00:25 · Score: 2, Funny

Good idea!
Travelling collections?
I can't believe that the National Parks System hasn't already done this. They're all clustered around the east coast - we really need to get some here in the midwest.
Re:In fact, by maxume · 2009-07-02 00:53 · Score: 2, Insightful

His point is better than that. The federal government basically runs an enormous jobs program in the Washington D.C. area, an area that is pretty much over developed at this point. Placing operations in other cities would have the effect of improving the economy in those cities and (probably) saving the government money (by lowering overhead costs and such).

--
Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
Re:In fact, by Opportunist · 2009-07-02 01:11 · Score: 1

Still, I intersection of the demographics "want to work for the government" and "IT cracks" is already small enough even without intersecting it also with "willing to move to backwater Utah".

--
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Re:In fact, by MikeBabcock · 2009-07-02 02:02 · Score: 1

Maybe they'll have a fly-in, fly-out policy like Area 51? :-)

--
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
Re:In fact, by jackbird · 2009-07-02 02:08 · Score: 1

What medium-size city DOESN'T have a Federal office building or two? What huge government program, especially military procurement, ISN'T made an order of magnitude more wasteful and inefficient by distributing suppliers and operatinos to as many congressional districts as possible?
You're talking out your ass.
Re:In fact, by WindBourne · 2009-07-02 02:39 · Score: 1

I live in Denver Boulder area. When we shutdown Stapleton, we tried to obtain the Future Aviation extension of the Smithsonian. Basically, Colorado was told that if they made an attempt for that, they would be denied money for DIA. Instead, it was moved to Virgina (same area, same ppl, different tax region). The most bothersome part of this, is that those around DC fight this decentralization. Insane.

Not only does it lead to jobs (and corrupt powers) being in one location, but it also leads to ease of targeting. Right now, DC would be ground zero for a nuke from AQ. Of course, other prime targets would be San Fransisco, Houston, Chicago, and NYC, but D.C. would be the most crippling.

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I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Re:In fact, by WindBourne · 2009-07-02 02:42 · Score: 1

What is wasteful about separating them? Suppliers are nationwide. Talking and viewing ppl cost the feds the same if the buildings are right next to each other or separated around the country.

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I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Re:In fact, by DerekLyons · 2009-07-02 02:58 · Score: 1

Actually it would have the effect of increasing costs because decentralizing operations also means decentralizing support functions (IT, HR, procurement, etc... etc...). Your tooth-to-tail ratio goes to hell in a handbasket. Then you have to figure in the need to duplicate infrastructure. Then figure in increased travel and communications costs. Then figure in the costs of increased 'friction' caused by less efficient (I.E. non face-to-face) communications. Etc... Etc...

There are reason why corporations and governments prefer centralization.
Re:In fact, by maxume · 2009-07-02 02:59 · Score: 1

Not really, according to this report, 21% of federal employees work in D.C., Virginia and Maryland:
http://maloney.house.gov/documents/workingfamilies/fammedleave/TotalFederalEmploymentbyStateDecember2007.pdf
For context, 4.6% of the nation lives in those areas. By comparison, 13% of the nation lives in Indiana, Illinois, Michigan and Ohio, but only about 7.8% of federal employees work there.
(I used these numbers for population:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_population )
Now, moving things around so that things were exactly balanced to population would almost certainly result in inefficiencies, but it is also almost a certainty that tens of thousands of those jobs could be moved around without any impact on costs.

--
Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
Re:In fact, by maxume · 2009-07-02 03:20 · Score: 1

I'm not suggesting complete decentralization, just that there is plenty of room to put some of those jobs elsewhere. If you move 1,000 jobs, you don't end up creating all that many personnel redundancies, you don't end up creating all that many infrastructure redundancies (it's a lot of offices no matter where it is), and if you do it judiciously, you might not even create much need for travel (choose groups that don't need to do a lot of face to face communication, that work together, etc.).

--
Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
Re:In fact, by DerekLyons · 2009-07-02 04:05 · Score: 1

It's true that moving 1,000 people won't create many problems - but it won't solve any either. It's akin to peeing on a forest fire.
Re:In fact, by maxume · 2009-07-02 04:17 · Score: 1

On which end? It sure wouldn't hurt the city that got the 1,000 jobs.

--
Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
Re:In fact, by DerekLyons · 2009-07-02 04:43 · Score: 1

On either end. A city big enough to absorb 1,000 workers, won't notice the increase. A city big enough to attract and hold 1,000 workers, won't notice the increase. A city big enough to have a pool of workers big enough to recruit 1,000 workers with the appropriate skills won't notice the increase.
Re:In fact, by ksheff · 2009-07-02 05:35 · Score: 1

The cost of living is going to be a lot less than northern Virginia, so there may be some willing to transfer to get away from the high costs and humidity of VA.

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the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
Re:In fact, by mattwarden · 2009-07-02 12:33 · Score: 1

You seem to have stumbled upon the wisdom of the framers when they laid out a decentralized system in the Constitution, where the centralized federal government ONLY involved itself in matters where the individual states could not (this does not include: education, energy, intrastate commerce, various construction/transportation projects, etc.).

Now its the real deal by AHuxley · 2009-07-02 00:16 · Score: 3, Interesting

Fort Meade was always the end point for what was filtered and sucked up on a global scale by the USA and friends.
The FBI, US military intelligence, UK, Australia, Canada, NZ where trusted keep tabs on US interests, internal and external.
Now the NSA is turning inward. Everything that was aimed at "the bad guys" "around the world' is now aimed at you in suburbia.
If the FBI wants your name, they ask your ISP.
if the NSA wants your name ... they are your ISP.

--
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"

What? No CFL's? by egcagrac0 · 2009-07-02 00:21 · Score: 1

65 megawatts of power - about the same amount used by every home in Salt Lake City

Maybe it's having to run the air conditioners all the time, but that's a lot of power to be using in a residence.

Have they checked that it's not grow lights?

Re:What? No CFL's? by TheRaven64 · 2009-07-02 00:45 · Score: 2, Interesting

Air conditioning in the summer, heating in the winter. I've only been in SLC in the autumn and spring, but at that time the temperature alternated between being cold enough that water left on my hair after a shower froze a few minutes after going outside, and hot enough that I was too warm even with the air conditioning running. Nice beer, but not a climate I'd like to live in for very long.
On the other hand, the cold winters mean that they can only run the air conditioning in the data centre half the year. If they're clever, then they'll sell the heat to local inhabitants during the winter.

--
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
Re:What? No CFL's? by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-02 01:57 · Score: 0

Even if it's frigid cold outside they'll still need to run air handlers to keep humidity levels safe for the equipment... can't just open the windows :)
Re:What? No CFL's? by Red+Flayer · 2009-07-02 02:55 · Score: 1

but that's a lot of power to be using in a residence.
Well, it just depends on the number of residences.

65 MW is not a lot for 100,000 homes. Hell, it's not even a lot for 30,000 homes.

Go check your electric hour. How many kW are you pulling right now, even without any of the following high-wattage appliances on:

Microwave
Hair dryer
Vacuum cleaner
Electric Oven
Electric heat

--
"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
Re:What? No CFL's? by egcagrac0 · 2009-07-02 03:59 · Score: 1

Unless 200,000 people live there, 65 MW is a lot to be using in one residence.
Re:What? No CFL's? by Red+Flayer · 2009-07-02 04:08 · Score: 1

Sorry for second reply.

I see... there is confusion on the meaning of the word "every".

I think your interpretation was that "every" means "each"... when instead the term "every home in..." means the same as "all homes in...".

--
"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
Re:What? No CFL's? by egcagrac0 · 2009-07-02 04:35 · Score: 1

No worries, just trolling the nonspecific language.
Re:What? No CFL's? by seanvaandering · 2009-07-02 08:25 · Score: 1

Have they checked that it's not grow lights?
Shhhhhhh! Goddammit!

Sounds like a new movie brewing... by Enuratique · 2009-07-02 00:25 · Score: 5, Funny

... The Hills Have Ears

--
A black hole is where God divided by 0

Re:Sounds like a new movie brewing... by digitalunity · 2009-07-02 01:56 · Score: 1

More accurate would be "The Hills Have Packet Sniffers" but that just isn't catchy.

--
You can't legislate goodness. Let each to his own destiny, by will of his freely made choices.
Re:Sounds like a new movie brewing... by TheQuantumShift · 2009-07-02 04:28 · Score: 1

The funny part is that Camp Williams is located in the foothills of a small mountain range, which are conveniently near the last "Hillbilly" towns in the Salt Lake Valley. But not to fear, as soon as the housing market comes back, they'll be consumed by the great stucco sprawl-monster.

--

Shift happens. Fire it up.

Climate change? For others only. by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-02 00:28 · Score: 0

Great, one giant 20 acre heater is just what the Earth needs at this time. And the US goverment is trying to give India lectures on climate change!

Nice work, Senator Hatch. by LaminatorX · 2009-07-02 00:29 · Score: 2, Insightful

Do I smell some juicy contracts for Novell as well?

Re:Nice work, Senator Hatch. by arndawg · 2009-07-02 01:06 · Score: 2, Funny

No. The NSA uses only the intersect. No Novell deals here.
Re:Nice work, Senator Hatch. by spikenerd · 2009-07-02 03:22 · Score: 1

This comes just weeks after Microsoft announces they're opening a center less than a mile from there. Coincidence? I'm not so sure that Novell is the big winner here.

That should cost by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-02 00:37 · Score: 0

All this talk about wasted money is making me hungry. Are we in the position to make such decisions in these times? Shouldn't we wait a few months / years before investing anything (even planning) in this stuff?

Re:That should cost by AHuxley · 2009-07-02 01:18 · Score: 1

Its just in time, locals are getting restless.
Tweet, blog on the upcoming riots, deaths and expect a visit.

--
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"

Halfway there... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-02 00:38 · Score: 0

Another data center like this and we could power the flux capacitor!

Guess Sotomoyer is in. by tjstork · 2009-07-02 00:39 · Score: 1

I wonder if that's the deal that was made. You don't get massive defense related centers in your state unless you pay a pretty big political price. I imagine it was, big ticket item for Sotomoyer's confirmation vote.

--
This is my sig.

In Soviet USA.... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-02 00:44 · Score: 0

...NSA is your ISP.

Cap and Trade by glenfahan · 2009-07-02 00:44 · Score: 1

Sounds like Cap and Trade will not apply to the government.

Re:Cap and Trade by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-02 01:47 · Score: 2, Insightful

Exactly. Notice they're going to the state with the lowest industrial rate for electricity in the country at 4.43 cents/kwh.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epm/table5_6_a.html
How do they generate electricity so cheaply? 82% of their generation is from coal, 16.4% from natural gas. Renewables only 1.6%.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/st_profiles/sept05ut.xls

hmm. by strack · 2009-07-02 00:49 · Score: 0, Flamebait

they could use that big temple in salt lake city. its already used for repression and evil, so itd be ideal.

Well that should cement Utah's status... by Abroun · 2009-07-02 00:52 · Score: 5, Funny

...as the country's largest per-capita paid consumer of internet pr0n ( http://people.hbs.edu/bedelman/papers/redlightstates.pdf )

Re:Well that should cement Utah's status... by NevarMore · 2009-07-02 01:21 · Score: 1

Thats because they are honest folk, with strong ethics and a healthy dose of religion. They know that those sex workers bust their humps and deserve an honest paycheck for their services. Not like the heathens in other parts of the world that just mooch off the free porn.
Utah-ians take their porn like their church. They go in all the way. The moochers who get porn for free are like people who only go to church on Sunday, they just don't have their hearts or their wallets in it.
Re:Well that should cement Utah's status... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-02 03:07 · Score: 0

People always bring up this article, but you will notice its not consumption of pornography, its consumption of internet pornogrpahy. whats the difference? its illegal to sell print pornography in Utah http://attorneygeneral.utah.gov/851.html So people have to get it somewhere else.
Re:Well that should cement Utah's status... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-02 04:38 · Score: 0

paid consumer of internet pr0n
Paying for pr0n? I just connect a "ethernet cable" to a "modem" and it just kind of falls out.

What ever bitch... by iCantSpell · 2009-07-02 00:53 · Score: 1

Disinformation is the cheapest and most efficient secrecy measure.

Re:What ever bitch... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-02 01:04 · Score: 0

Yeah they have probably already built said facility somewhere else and this is just a smokescreen.

Nominal Intel servers use about 88W by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-02 00:55 · Score: 5, Interesting

Nominal 8-core Intel servers use about 88 Watts now, not 500W. I performed a "green power review" for a customer this year. Their really old 8-core boxes used around 450W, before we replaced them for new and put 6 old physical servers onto each new physical server running VMs. We weren't even trying to push the minimal server solution and the new servers had 4GB RAM per core, so these aren't VM-specific servers, just normal current tech boxes. Also, we replaced all the internal drives beyond 2 for RAID1 boots with a redundant GigE SAN. Fairly cheap upgrades. Their old power draw was 18kVA and we dropped it to under 4kVA. Anyone want to trade out APC units? I know someone wasting power keeping their batteries charged.

Now, these weren't the big 24-128-way servers from HP, Sun, IBM, and Fujitsu with redundant fibre SAN and fibre networking, so your estimate could be very good. Some of those Cisco optics switches and routers can really pull power, especially if you use the power over ethernet features.

Re:Nominal Intel servers use about 88W by Retric · 2009-07-02 03:23 · Score: 2, Interesting

To give you an idea how much computational power they could have using specilized hardware. Let's compare that to a 9800GTX.
65 megawatts / 140watts * 432gflops = ~200,000 TeraFlops or 200,000,000,000,000,000 Flops. For something like 40 to 80 million$.
Granted the accuracy of this estimate sucks as GTX's don't have networking suppport, and we need to cool things ect. But, they could also use more effecent hardware than the GTX.
Re:Nominal Intel servers use about 88W by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-02 03:49 · Score: 0

Now, these weren't the big 24-128-way servers from HP, Sun, IBM, and Fujitsu with redundant fibre SAN and fibre networking, so your estimate could be very good.
A Sun T-series server would probably be more efficient then an Intel-based system (as long as you don't need too much floating point).
If you're running Solaris on it (regardless of architecture), you don't even internal disks as a compute node could simply netboot. Fibre for SAN and networking wouldn't be necessary either: pop in a Infiniband 12X card and you have 24, 48, or 96Gbps (SDR, DDR, QDR) networking where you can easily combine both storage (NFS, iSCSI) and control.
Sun has a lot of products for the HPC arena (as do HP and IBM).
Re:Nominal Intel servers use about 88W by Korin43 · 2009-07-02 05:12 · Score: 1

That's a graphics card though. It's likely that they're using a more general purpose CPU:
The microwulf (first cluster I could find data for) performs at 58.34 Mflops/Watt, so 58.34 Mflops/Watt * 65 Megawatts = 3,770 teraflops
The most efficient computer on the Green500 gets 536.24 Mflops/W so 536.24 Mflops/W * 65 Megawatts = ~ 34,083 teraflops
And of course, that's assuming they don't have lights or heat..
Re:Nominal Intel servers use about 88W by T-Bone-T · 2009-07-02 05:30 · Score: 1

What do they need heaters for? Aren't they about to install thousands of them already?

The U.S. government is corrupt. by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-02 01:05 · Score: 1, Interesting

By some measures, the U.S. government is the most corrupt in the world.

The U.S. government spends more on surveillance of its citizens than any country in the entire history of the world.

The U.S. government has invaded or bombed 25 countries since the end of the 2nd world war, all for profit. In Iraq, oil and weapons investors like Bush and Cheney wanted control over the oil, and didn't care how many people they killed. In Afghanistan, oil investors want to build an oil pipeline.

The U.S. government has a higher percentage of its people in prison than any country ever in the history of the world, over 6 times higher than in Europe, for example. Some U.S. states, such as Oregon, spend more on prisons than on education!

This Slashdot comment discusses some of the corruption of the U.S. government concerning financial issues: The Investment Banking cohorts JPMorgan Chase and Goldman Sachs are the **huge** winners. That comment links to an important article in Rolling Stone magazine that discusses more about how the financial corruption of the U.S. government is operated.

Re:The U.S. government is corrupt. by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-02 02:20 · Score: 0

Since when does "Rolling Stone" magazine publish IMPORTANT articles?
Re:The U.S. government is corrupt. by BumbaCLot · 2009-07-02 02:29 · Score: 2, Informative

Apparently you are unaware of the writings of Dr. Hunter S. Thompson? Or his impact on the elections in the 1970s?
Re:The U.S. government is corrupt. by stewbacca · 2009-07-02 02:32 · Score: 5, Insightful

The U.S. government spends more on surveillance of its citizens than any country in the entire history of the world.
Care to cite that?

The U.S. government has invaded or bombed 25 countries since the end of the 2nd world war, all for profit.
Profit eh? So how much money does the US government earn every time a B1 Bomber drops another bomb? They have to pay for those planes, pilots and bombs, and get no monetary value in return. So where's the profit?

In Iraq, oil and weapons investors like Bush and Cheney wanted control over the oil, and didn't care how many people they killed. In Afghanistan, oil investors want to build an oil pipeline.
Care to explain why this mythical oil pipeline STILL hasn't shown up? It has been what, 8 years now since Moore made up this talking point? Also, if we invaded Iraq for the oil, then why do we not have ANY of the oil?

The U.S. government has a higher percentage of its people in prison than any country ever in the history of the world, over 6 times higher than in Europe, for example. Some U.S. states, such as Oregon, spend more on prisons than on education!
Perhaps there is a higher percentage of criminals in the US than in Europe, or our law enforcement is more efficient, or, gasp, we have a bunch of dumb laws that put dumb people in jail? So what.
Re:The U.S. government is corrupt. by JazzLad · 2009-07-02 03:49 · Score: 1

>Also, if we invaded Iraq for the oil, then why do we not have ANY of the oil?

Perhaps we were simply incompetent? Not like the administration was known for being right all the time.

/I'm not saying this is my belief or opinion, just putting a possible reason out there - please do not misinterpret as a flame or invitation to flame.

--
"If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear." - Every fascist, ever
Re:The U.S. government is corrupt. by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-02 03:53 · Score: 0

"They have to pay for those planes, pilots and bombs, and get no monetary value in return. So where's the profit?"
Where is the profit? Just ask the companies the government purchase the weapons and planes from. I'm sure they have an answer.
Re:The U.S. government is corrupt. by stewbacca · 2009-07-02 03:54 · Score: 1

We are competent enough to sustain the deployment of 150,000 troops for over 8 years. Stealing oil that is freely streaming out of the ground in the country the US occupies is child's play, in comparison.
Re:The U.S. government is corrupt. by JazzLad · 2009-07-02 04:26 · Score: 1

I duhno about that.

"Halliburtonâ(TM)s $2.5 billion "Restore Iraqi Oil" (RIO) contract[26] was supposed to pay for itself as well as reconstruction of the entire country."

more

Notably 1:07 to end

I respect all of the posts of yours I have read, just showing you another perspective.

--
"If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear." - Every fascist, ever
Re:The U.S. government is corrupt. by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-02 04:33 · Score: 1, Insightful

Care to cite that?
Why should he? There are some things that are questionable and legitimately require a source. Other things are patently self-evident and anyone asking for a citation is just wasting everyone's time. This is in the latter category.
Why don't you waste YOUR time and try to prove him wrong?
So where's the profit?
There are different types of "profit" and rarely does the average American figure into the equation. If you are questioning the monetary kind, look no further than the defense companies.
Also, if we invaded Iraq for the oil, then why do we not have ANY of the oil?
Because the Iraqis told the US and Britain to take the sweetheart oil contracts for their companies and piss off. It's well documented and should be no surprise. Everything in Iraq was premised on them rolling over and/or devolving into corruption. They didn't roll over but given the current state of affairs we do get some oil from the corrupt.
Perhaps there is a higher percentage of criminals in the US than in Europe, or our law enforcement is more efficient,
Or maybe decisions were made that since we decided to export our entire manufacturing base to China and would never be able to provide livable wage jobs for a significant percentage of the population it was better to pay part of the unemployable to guard the rest than to have any of them agitating for their share of the American dream. Better to stigmatize and lock them up in their prime years, for whatever reason, than have them rocking everyone else's boat.
Re:The U.S. government is corrupt. by stewbacca · 2009-07-02 12:17 · Score: 1

Those are all valid links, but they actually support what I'm saying. If we really wanted the oil, we would have taken it, and used it to finance this mess. But, we didn't, as your links show. I don't think it was due to incompetence. I think rather that we didn't do it because it would have looked bad, and would have only fueled the "No Blood for Oil" crowd's fervor.
Re:The U.S. government is corrupt. by JazzLad · 2009-07-02 23:34 · Score: 1

Valid point, I'll buy that :) Enjoy your 4th!

--
"If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear." - Every fascist, ever

"Decentralized" You keep using this word... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-02 01:10 · Score: 0

"Decentralized"
You keep using this word; I do not think it means what you think it means.

Nothing secret here by 192939495969798999 · 2009-07-02 01:15 · Score: 3, Interesting

Anything that's a million square feet is not going to be much of a secret.

"What's this building that I'm driving past for 5 minutes on the freeway?"

"Oh, that's just a, uh... big empty warehouse building."

This is all just a distraction from the "real secret", a 2 million square foot datacenter that they're building in lake Superior's salt mines.

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stuff |

Re:Nothing secret here by NevarMore · 2009-07-02 03:31 · Score: 1

datacenter that they're building in lake Superior's salt mines.
Salt Lake, salt mine, either way its a smart move to build an NSA outpost with access to a lot of salt.
-1 Unfunny is not the same as "I don't get it"
Re:Nothing secret here by n7ytd · 2009-07-02 04:18 · Score: 1

This is all just a distraction from the "real secret", a 2 million square foot datacenter that they're building in lake Superior's salt mines.
Well, thanks a lot for blowing it! There's one 2 million square foot datacenter gone to waste...
Re:Nothing secret here by Celeste+R · 2009-07-02 05:24 · Score: 1

Take for example Area 51.
It's secrets are kept secret because it's remote; its active security measures are second to that.
Then take for example the Pentagon.
It's secrets are kept secret because of higher quality active security measures.
Even if something is a million square feet, what goes on inside can still be a well-maintained secret. Protecting the infrastructure may seem important, until you start thinking that what goes on inside that infrastructure is more important.

--
There are no perfect answers, only the right questions. More questions at http://foresightandhindsight.blogspot.com/
Re:Nothing secret here by Celeste+R · 2009-07-02 05:29 · Score: 1

I really think that access to salt isn't a priority.
As the articles state, the locations of existing power conduits was one of the largest deciding factors.
Camp Williams also has a lot more going for it than meets the eye, seeing as how it's on a river's cliffside. It wouldn't be that difficult to put most of the NSA's datacenter into the ground, and just cool it with the help of the local river.

--
There are no perfect answers, only the right questions. More questions at http://foresightandhindsight.blogspot.com/
Re:Nothing secret here by NevarMore · 2009-07-02 08:43 · Score: 1

Too obscure?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_(cryptography)
Re:Nothing secret here by Celeste+R · 2009-07-02 15:29 · Score: 1

That's great! Thanks for sharing this information :)

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There are no perfect answers, only the right questions. More questions at http://foresightandhindsight.blogspot.com/
Re:Nothing secret here by DXLster · 2009-07-03 02:24 · Score: 1

"What's this building that I'm driving past for 5 minutes on the freeway?"
Assuming it's a one-story facility, a million sq ft means 1000 ft per side, or about 1/5 of a mile. 5 minutes is 300 seconds, so you'd have to be driving at a speed of about 3.3 feet per second, or about 2.25 MPH.
In which case, please get the hell off my freeway kthx.

Move over Blackwater, THIS is security. by hoarier · 2009-07-02 01:18 · Score: 1

We read above: . . . a separate power substation will have to be built at Camp Williams. "They were looking at secure sites [...]" says Col. Scott Olson....

To whom (in Tora Bora and elsewhere) it may concern: Here is the Camp Williams FAQ, which imparts such nuggets of High Security as:

Q. Where do I call to make arrangements to pick up key's [sic] for buildings and class rooms.

A. Call the billeting office 878-5410. All buildings on post are controlled by the Billeting office.. Call ahead to make sure they are open. Their hours are not the same every day.

Re:Move over Blackwater, THIS is security. by macbuzz01 · 2009-07-02 01:54 · Score: 1

Did that site design hurt your eyes too?
Re:Move over Blackwater, THIS is security. by Celeste+R · 2009-07-02 05:35 · Score: 1

The parent post ignores the fact that there's a significant amount of red tape involved in any military action.
Just because there's a billeting office that controls this aspect of security doesn't reflect the fact that there's also a security screening involved. Furthermore, when there's not a well-documented good reason (i.e. more paperwork), why should they let you in at all?

--
There are no perfect answers, only the right questions. More questions at http://foresightandhindsight.blogspot.com/

Why don't... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-02 01:32 · Score: 0

... people build underground anymore?
Surely the dwarves won't mind that much?

Just great. by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-02 01:36 · Score: 0

They're trying to build the Eschaton.

Mentally unbalanced by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-02 01:37 · Score: 0

That's the type of person who is willing to be poor so that his government can spend money killing people in a country he can't find on a map of the world.

US Government Hypocrisy by Rocketship+Underpant · 2009-07-02 01:38 · Score: 2, Funny

The hypocrisy of the US government never ceases to amaze. Here Obama has been going about cutting back on home energy use, carbon credits, etc. And at the same time, he's going to open a new government facility that uses as much electricity as all of Salt Lake City?

--
He who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me.

Re:US Government Hypocrisy by ksheff · 2009-07-02 05:46 · Score: 1

The more YOU cut down on YOUR energy usage, the more the Feds can suck up for themselves. This is from a guy that during the campaign said that Americans shouldn't expect to "keep our homes on 72 degrees at all times", but he keeps his office in the 80s during the winter.

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the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
Re:US Government Hypocrisy by ahabswhale · 2009-07-02 06:59 · Score: 1

He lives in a house full of women. Who the fuck do you think controls the thermostat?

--
Are agnostics skeptical of unicorns too?
Re:US Government Hypocrisy by ksheff · 2009-07-02 07:26 · Score: 1

Do you think she controls it even at work?

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the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs

In the Metric System... by superFoieGras · 2009-07-02 01:56 · Score: 0

That's almost 81 000 square meters, for sane people.

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I swear Officer, these are not WMD, just plain French cheese...

Everything they need? by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-02 01:57 · Score: 0

"The stars just kind of came into alignment. We could provide them everything they need." Considering it's Utah, everything, except for caffeine, alcohol, and anything else that is pleasurable or good tasting.

They should talk to google... by hesaigo999ca · 2009-07-02 01:58 · Score: 1

They would actually benefit from sitting down with the google boys, and asking them about their power generating machines using solar cells...made especially for them. This conveys they pay no electricity, or almost none, (not including the small offices)
for their huge data centers... but do you think the NSA cares about saving their tax payers dollars,of course not!

Too bad we can't force them to try and use the most cost efficient way of doing things, especially the military as well!

isn't that the site we blew up by circletimessquare · 2009-07-02 02:20 · Score: 1

in the opening scene of terminator salvation?

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intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it

I, for one, welcome our new Mormon overlords. by BlueBoxSW.com · 2009-07-02 02:21 · Score: 1

I, for one, welcome our new Mormon overlords.

Re:I, for one, welcome our new Mormon overlords. by adewolf · 2009-07-02 02:31 · Score: 1

hahah not to mention our reptilian alien overloards...

--
"The Brady Bunch is back...working homicide"
Re:I, for one, welcome our new Mormon overlords. by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-02 04:04 · Score: 0

We're fairly benevolent. Just make sure to combine random fruits and vegetables with jello every once in a while and use "dang" or "fetch" instead of swearing and you should be fine.
Re:I, for one, welcome our new Mormon overlords. by bonedog73 · 2009-07-02 04:39 · Score: 1

I knew the Mormons were behind the NSA! Oh Snap!
Re:I, for one, welcome our new Mormon overlords. by Celeste+R · 2009-07-02 05:36 · Score: 1

Don't forget the new wardrobe, I hear they're 20 years behind as far as fashion and such.
No, I don't think they do the Big Hair of the 80's.

--
There are no perfect answers, only the right questions. More questions at http://foresightandhindsight.blogspot.com/
Re:I, for one, welcome our new Mormon overlords. by cenc · 2009-07-02 06:00 · Score: 1

They need the extra juice to power the free ice cream machine in the lobby.

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Living in Chile

notice the attempt at steganography above by circletimessquare · 2009-07-02 02:25 · Score: 1

JEWEL OK HEADS DC 1000 DC EPA

obviously some sort of instructions on assembling a dc powered environmental disruptor

don't think the NSA isn't noticing this friend, they have extensive steganographic data mining techniques. we're onto you

--
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it

Hmmmm by the+eric+conspiracy · 2009-07-02 03:10 · Score: 1

Imagine a Beowulf Cluster of these.

Re:Hmmmm by Ponga · 2009-07-02 09:09 · Score: 1

Imagine a Beowulf Cluster of these.
That's old hat. It's all about "Cloud Computing" these days...

This is a failed plan by furby076 · 2009-07-02 03:13 · Score: 1

Step 1) Build awesome data center ala bunker fashion that can resist all but a direct nuclear strike ensuring number crunching in any* event Step 2*) Build seperate dedicated energy plant, to power this awesome data center and make it known to the world ensuring the bad guys will just use conventional bombs to dsetroy that location. The data center will still be around...powerless...all systems running on 5 minute battery UPC devices.

See when they said 65 megawatts of power I figured they would build a small nuclear power plant DEEPER underground. Ensuring this place can run for a very long time. I figured wrong.

--

I do not support "The Man". I also do not support your irrational stupidity

They should try using solar and wind by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-02 03:41 · Score: 0

to help power this not-so-secret computing farm. But they probably won't. Some coal lobby will get their dirty hands into the politics and a new coal plant will be built instead. Our government is nothing more than a corporate extension. They pander to whoever waves the most dollar bills in their face.

What clearances will the NSA require? by walterbyrd · 2009-07-02 03:55 · Score: 1

I am guessing it will be mainly top-secret. But DoD/TS or SSBI/TC or TS/SCI, or something else? I wonder if they will use anything less that TS? Like DoD/Secret?

Open House ? by bonedog73 · 2009-07-02 04:20 · Score: 1

Wonder if they give tours..

There's plenty sources of power in Utah by KJSwartz · 2009-07-02 04:33 · Score: 1

Solar, Geothermal, Wind, Nuclear ... scratch Nuclear - imagine using the Great Salt Lake to cool a reactor?
Ehr, Isotope Decay! All they need are two wires stapled to the side of Yucca Mountain in a few years.

National Zoo in Front Royal, VA by catherder_finleyd · 2009-07-02 05:15 · Score: 1

In one case, the Smithsonian's National Zoo has a facility in Front Royal, Virginia:

http://nationalzoo.si.edu/ConservationAndScience/CRC/FrontRoyal/default.cfm

Re:National Zoo in Front Royal, VA by WindBourne · 2009-07-02 13:04 · Score: 1

Are you seriously suggesting that less than 75miles/110 KM is considered distributed?

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I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.

What do you think Google has been doing? by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-02 05:59 · Score: 0

If the NSA were to drive around photographing every street home and business in America hashed with GPS coordinates, the public would be outraged. If the NSA were to hire Google to do the exact same thing and allow Google to release low-resolution copies of the photos on their website, nobody seems to mind.

Re:In Soviet USA... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-02 07:37 · Score: 0

Troll? Thought that was a popular meme around here......guess not.

Tracking down corruption by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-02 09:46 · Score: 0

The U.S. government has invaded or bombed 25 countries since the end of the 2nd world war, all for profit.

Profit eh? So how much money does the US government earn every time a B1 Bomber drops another bomb? They have to pay for those planes, pilots and bombs, and get no monetary value in return. So where's the profit?

You seem to be under the delusion that the US federal government is a business instead of being run by former and future business executives. If you check the stocks and executive salaries for weapons and plane manufacturers (e.g. Boeing), infrastructure rebuilders of what was just blown up (e.g. Halliburton, KBR), and private security corporations to protect the rebuilders (e.g. Blackwater), you will find the profit.

In Iraq, oil and weapons investors like Bush and Cheney wanted control over the oil, and didn't care how many people they killed. In Afghanistan, oil investors want to build an oil pipeline.

Care to explain why this mythical oil pipeline STILL hasn't shown up? It has been what, 8 years now since Moore made up this talking point? Also, if we invaded Iraq for the oil, then why do we not have ANY of the oil?

Shockingly, some projects take a long time to plan, and can be delayed by permits, NIMBY, and invasions. The Trans-Afghanistan pipeline is one such. If you'll check your favorite news site, you'll find the Iraqi oil is, right now, being bid on by the big oil companies. "We" do not get the oil, "we" invaded Iraq (you know, blew up roads, bridges, hotels, hospitals, apartments, homes, people, but not a single oil well) so big corporations could transport it to various countries for huge profits and life-defying pollution. And for bonus points, the Iraqi peoples' profit from the oil sale is pitifully small.

The U.S. government has a higher percentage of its people in prison than any country ever in the history of the world, over 6 times higher than in Europe, for example. Some U.S. states, such as Oregon, spend more on prisons than on education!

Perhaps there is a higher percentage of criminals in the US than in Europe, or our law enforcement is more efficient, or, gasp, we have a bunch of dumb laws that put dumb people in jail? So what.

You appear to not care that some laws are dumb, so dumb that there are people in prison whom have hurt no one in any manner except for violating the dumb law 3 times. These are not dumb people, they are people like your neighbor, your cousin, yourself. "So what" you say? So what about empathy? What about changing what's wrong?

First link says 200-acre by Calyth · 2009-07-02 09:53 · Score: 1

Seems like NSA is constructing a much bigger site according to the Salt Lake Tribune.

Story should have read: by atramentum · 2009-07-02 11:36 · Score: 0

NSA to build Skynet, Terminators expected to rise up.

Great, now we are a nuke target. by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-02 15:09 · Score: 0

Just when I thought I moved my family to the one place no one would bother dropping a nuke on, some clown had to decide to stick 20 acres of top-secret computers down the street. Wonderful.

No point in making an attack difficult by spreading all those important computers out among many datacenters. Let's just make it easy. It might help if we stick a big red and white bullseye on the roof. It would be big enough to see from space with the naked eye. Utahns have a history of rolling over for the government. Uncle Sam owns most of the state (over 70 percent!), has the largest stockpile of chemical weapons in the world here, and generally could give a care about who they have to abuse to get what they want. Orrin Hatch is so old, I'm surprised he can still grab his ankles. Bend deep sir. You won't feel a thing.

every home in Salt Lake City uses 65 megawatts?!? by vaporland · 2009-07-02 15:22 · Score: 1

wow - talk about charismatic! those Mormons are on to something...

--
Ask Me About... The 80's!

whaaaaa? by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-02 19:21 · Score: 0

The American taxpayer is paying how much???? for what???? Holy crap... 1984 people - read it - or at least watch a movie of it...

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NSA To Build 20-Acre Data Center In Utah

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