Slashdot Mirror
Can Urine Rescue Hydrogen-Powered Cars?
thecarchik writes with this interesting excerpt: "It takes a lot of energy to split hydrogen out from the other atoms to which it binds, either in natural gas or water. Which means energy analysts are skeptical about the overall energy balance of cars fueled by hydrogen. Ohio University researcher Geraldine Botte has come up with a nickel-based electrode to oxidize (NH2)2CO, otherwise known as urea, the major component of animal urine. Because urea's four hydrogen atoms are less tightly bound to nitrogen than the hydrogen bound to oxygen in water molecules, it takes less energy to break them apart."
Only if they relax the drunk-driving laws. I don't see any other way the economics can work.
The problem isn't just getting the hydrogen, its storing and using it safely. This might make hydrogen dirt cheap, but it still doesn't really solve the problems that make hydrogen cars unworkable.
Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
first piss!
Sperm and now urine? I'll take a guess and say the next article will be about crap.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has it's limits" - Albert Einstein
Well, if this does work, it looks like the waste processing plants will get a complete overhaul. But that assumes there is a easy way to separate the urea from the water and other things that flow down the sewer lines....
We were all warned a long time ago that MS products sucked, remember the Magic 8 Ball said, "Outlook not so good"
This would only work if I was paid to use the bathroom. Otherwise, I'd be flushing money down the toilet.
If our elected representatives no longer represent us, do we still live in a Democracy?
So you finally figure out a way to get rid of us Interstate Rest Area workers. Now that everyone can piss in their gas tanks you won't *need* us to clean the restrooms at rest areas because you won't need the rest areas. Thanks for making me lose my job!!!
Try pissing in my gas tank now!
The cars powered by this will smell like Bourbon Street.
Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
I did chemistry nine years ago, however with regards to this sentence: "Because urea's four hydrogen atoms are less tightly bound to nitrogen than the hydrogen bound to oxygen in water molecules, it takes less energy to break them apart."
Isn't it so that the energy of activation is rather irrelevant once you have a reaction going, because whatever energy is added to push them over the energy hurdle is released once the molecule separates? The only effect of a catalyst, if I remember correctly, is to reduce the energy hurdle, but it does not increase the amount of energy released (except perhaps through thermal efficiency).
Cool. We burn our pee in the car, collect pure water from the tailpipe, drink the water and pee again.
Perpetual urination FTW.
Apparently, a lot less. From TFA: "Just 0.037 Volts need to be applied across the cell, against the 1.23 Volts needed to break down water."
It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
...piss-take.
Peeing in my neighbors gas tank will no longer have the desired effect.
I can see two possible problems with this. Urea is a product of amino acid metabolization, in other words, protein breakdown. Somehow I think it'd take quite a lot of energy to provide the protein to provide the urea.
Second problem, what're the reaction by-products? That wasn't clear in the article. If nitrogen gas is a by-product, that basically reverses the very energy intensive process of fixing nitrogen. We'd be better off using the urea as fertilizer to grow food rather than as fuel.
--PM
I look forward to the day that pissing in a gas tank just might help you get to your next gas station.
-AlPhAbEt
just pee into the gas tank. Bring your dog or cat with you, and have them pee into the gas tank as well.
Urine powered automobiles for teh win!
Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
Officer: "Sir, you are operating this vehicle under the influence of alcohol, please come with me to the station."
Driver: "Honest, officer, that 12-pack I just drank was just to get enough urine to get home!"
-- the_Librarian
We first just need to build urine collectors for livestock to separate the urine from the other waste. We then need to run this through a urine-tolerant reverse osmosis system and concentrate the solution from the ~5% solution it starts at. We then need to extract the urea from the salts and proteins (which make up more of urine per mass than urea does). We then need to use energy to separate the urea (just not as much with water). And this is supposed to solve an efficiency problem?
Yawn.
Think about it this way: if urea was actually a reasonable energy source, we'd already be concentrating it and burning it for power.
All them years of priest training, taken out by one bounty hunter.
"It takes a lot of energy to split hydrogen out from the other atoms to which it binds [...] Which means energy analysts are skeptical about the overall energy balance of cars fueled by hydrogen
Are you stupid? The energy is released when hydrogen and oxygen are recombined into water. Hydrogen isn't an energy source. It's a form of energy storage.
Wii would like to drive
Urea will never be a significant energy source. Think about it, cars use far more energy than the total caloric intake of an animal (human or otherwise) per day. Yet WASTE product is supposed to supply all the energy needs of our vehicles?
Secondly, this would directly compete with our food sources even more so than biodiesel already does. Urea is a nitrogen fertilizer source that is in short supply. We already manufacture most of the world's urea supply from atmospheric nitrogen using up energy (mostly natural gas) in the process.
So in short, while this research may be of practical and academic interest, it is not going to usher in a new era of piss-powered cars.
Looks like women will have a reason to keep men around after all.
the fuel will be called urinine, because after a lot of beer, I'm way way past urin8
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
The biggest problem I can see, is that if we are all producing the fuel to run our cars, how are the government every going to tax it? None of the solutions seems that pleasant!
politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
Urea, commercially used, is synthesized. You'll find that many shampoo products have urea in them. I don't think that people would like to put piss on their heads.
So now there is an excuse to drive my car when I'm completely pissed!
>Seventeen.
Piss in the fuel tank.
I'd never have to stop driving to relieve myself again. Just make sure I've got plenty of water handy.
For those who seek perfection there can be no rest on this side of the grave.
electric is good and mass transit is better
Not in my town it isn't. We have three coal fired generators and a brand new natural gas generator; an electric car wouldn't decrease greenhouse gasses or other pollutants. Bus service works fine in milder climates, but it gets damned hot and damned cold here and nobody's going to want to wait half an hour in 20 degree f weather or 95 degree f weather, or in the rain; the busses stink; and they usually don't have meany passengers. I alone in my car put far less carbon in the atmosphere than the three passengers and the driver in that big stinkey bus.
Free Martian Whores!
You're right about the energy balance for the wrong reasons, and also the article submitter has screwed up. No one is suggesting urine, which the journalist made up on the spot, and which fails the capacity requirement to boot. The pure industrial chemical urea is mostly produced synthetically from ammonia and carbon dioxide, and ammonia is made from hydrogen and nitrogen. Hydrogen is currently produced mostly from natural gas and similar sources, which means it won't solve anything, and the carbon dioxide should be non-fossil also for the carbon cycle to be closed. In summary, what we have here is another way to produce synthetic fuel from natural gas or carbonaceous masses like coal or organic matter. The good thing is that the fuel precursor is noncombustible; the bad is that it's completely unproven and even hypothetical, and its energy density is not known.
This would be hilarious as a petrol station attendant.
"Lovely Mayback sir, mind if I piss in the tank?"
"Go ahead son, fill her up!"
URICA!
... we run out of water, because we drink it all and instead of peeing it back on Mother Nature we break it into other particles?
While this sounds rather strange, you should realize that it's only a matter of "when?" instead of "will it?" Just for the heck of it, does anyone have any idea how this period can be computed?
Only if they relax the drunk-driving laws. I don't see any other way the economics can work.
Simple. Have one designated driver and three people on "fuel detail." This would make long distance road-trips more economical for college students. It's going to put a dent in Mickey's Big Mouth sales, though.
Looking at it, after your strip the 4 O atoms, it looks like you'd get 2CO + N2 (carbon monoxide and Nitrogen gas). Anyone know what the real reaction would be? NO2 + C? (could you then feed the NO2 into your engine, or yourself?)
Slashdot's rate-of-post filter: Preventing you from posting too many great ideas at once.
Future filling station: two guys at the side of the road with a keg of beer.
From August 28 2006: http://achewood.com/index.php?date=08282006
Anyone else read this comic?
Not in my town it isn't. We have three coal fired generators and a brand new natural gas generator;
Your town is not an island. Nationwide, on our current grid, according to the DOE, EVs decrease CO2 emissions by 27%, slightly increase PM, keep SOx the same, slightly decrease NOx, nearly eliminate CO and VOCs, and move all emissions away from surface level, right next to where people are breathing it in. Sounds like a win to me.
I agree with you about busses, mind you.
All them years of priest training, taken out by one bounty hunter.
but in this case it's a good thing.
Reminds me of that BP joke...
you remember. Empty tank, swarm of bees...
...who control barter town?
Bus service works fine in milder climates, but it gets damned hot and damned cold here and nobody's going to want to wait half an hour ...
If you have to wait a half an hour then it's not "fine" bus service. I lived in Toronto for about 10 years and it gets pretty bad in the winter but between stops or stations on every corner and the bus and subway systems being so regular mass transit was actually a joy compared to struggling in traffic. I'd say the only exception was being out on a late night bender after the subway closed and the buses* slowed down. But then again I never got a DUI waiting for a late night bus and if I had the money to burn the taxis are everywhere and available 24/7.
Mass transit is not so bad as long is it is done right...
*affectionately known as the vomit comet!
Creationist Textbook Stickers Declared Unconstitutional by CowboyNeal
why is hydrogen still seen as some sort of viable alternative?
It's not. But when you give out literally billions of dollars to businesses for hydrogen research and investment, you shouldn't be shocked when they fight against the death of that tech. See buggy whips.
Hydrogen articles are going to keep popping up for years.
All them years of priest training, taken out by one bounty hunter.
The Romans made great use of human urine in their day; why shouldn't we do the same? In ancient Rome, citizens were actually "taxed" their urine; that is, the government required that they give it to them. And then they sold it back to them in more useful forms. Sounds like a great way to get our government out of the financial mess they're in!
I suppose this means that part of the energy needed to separate the hydrogen atom from the other atoms it was clinging to was supplied by the organism that created the urea.
"It would be cheaper to fill the tank with Nobel prize winner's sperm"
-Leela
We used to joke about no-name gas stations selling "Horse Piss". Guess
it won't be a joke much longer!
apart, then you get back less energy when you put it back together, so you have to use more of it. DUHHH. There is no free lunch.
or urout...
(don't let that leak out)
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
If it works, it would be a very green... er... yellow solution.
This was the premise of "The P Factor," by Curt Siodmak, published in the September 1976 issue of the Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction, except the urine was used as a replacement for gasoline rather than a way to produce hydrogen.
So in the future, I can pee on the car gas tank....and nobody can say anything ?...WOW.... ;)
they are just taking the piss out of us.
After logging in slashdot still does not take you back to the page you were on. It's been that way for 20 years.
The Ultimate Solution is to rob another Universe of it's Energy and increase that universe's entropy.
That is what I plan on doing for my Energy plan.
Tsukasa: All I really want, is to be left alone...
parents: "Who wants to go fill up the gas, ahem, urine tank?"
kids: "me! me! me!"
No, you split the urea molecule with less energy, but then you recombine it with freely available oxygen from the air, resulting in a higher energy output. No free lunch (we still need to get the oxygen from somewhere), but since oxygen comes from photosynthesis, and that uses solar power to separate CO2 into carbon (in the plant itself) and oxygen, we effectively get solar powered cars using urea and oxygen from trees to generate power.
What I don't get is why all the fuss about these roundabout methods? Why not simply pull the electricity from the sun directly with solar power? Solar panels are much more efficient than trees at converting the energy, and if we use something like urea, which will use up lots of oxygen, aren't we in danger of suffocation in the long term?
Before commenting on the Bible, please read it first
My wife is going to be the Energy SuperHeroine. She has to pee about 20 times a day.
Either your wife has a small or irritable bladder, or she drinks a lot of water. In either case it's not going to help. If she has a small bladder she will be peeing all the time, but her total daily volume of urine will be within normal limits. If she drinks a lot of water, her urine volume will be above average, but the actual concentration of urea in her urine will be less.
Sorry to burst your bubble.
On the other hand, we doctors know that red meat and other protein rich foods - dairy products, eggs, etc - will substantially increase your production of urea (this is after all how the body gets rid of excess nitrogen produced when amino acids from proteins are turned into other stuff like sugars, fats, etc). So perhaps finally we'll be able to imprison all the snobbish vegans. Everyone will be forced to eat red meat and cheese all the time, and promptly die of heart attacks at 40, solving both the energy and the social security crises in one fell swoop.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
Did anyone else envision a school bus with rows of toilets as seats?
Pee-as-fuel could work to reduce pit stops on long drives. Car seat toilets would create boundless awkward moments though. "Just a second officer, *grunt* *wince*... aaahhh. What were you saying again?" "Get out of the car... but don't forget to wipe first!"
Oh bathroom humor... is there anything it can't do?
I notice there's a carbon atom in there. Where does it go? Funnily enough, the article doesn't mention.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
But then again I never got a DUI waiting for a late night bus...
Do they not have public intoxication charges in Toronto? A common trap for US military, in the US anyway, is for the police to wait between the bars and base. Anybody drives, DUI; anybody walks, public intoxication. This also works waiting between bars and public transportation stations/stops.
The purpose of language is communication, If the idea is clear the grammar ain't important
...to pissing on a spark plug. It may now do good.
Let's face it, most of us are scoffers. But moments before zero hour, it does not pay to take chances.
Urine as a fuel source? This could be the start of a new Golden Age!
(-1, Raw and Uncut is the only way to read)
Urea can be made from carbon dioxide and ammonia, according to Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urea#Industrial_methods Global warming problem solved?
the author is just taking the piss.
Well what is the criteria for drunk in public? I never heard of anyone getting a breathalyzer for something like that. A DUI where I live now is BAC > .08. At even BAC .1 there is no visible indication that I am severely intoxicated. I don't generally stumble or even slur my words. But I still won't drive even after a single beer.
Unless there is some part of the law that I'm unaware of I'm pretty certain you have to be quite hammered to be considered publicly intoxicated. You can get a DUI for having a mild buzz.
Creationist Textbook Stickers Declared Unconstitutional by CowboyNeal
I don't think he said anything about kissing.
Posted AC because:
1) Off topic, and not interesting to many.
2) Busses is sometimes used as a plural of bus, but buses is more common and unambiguous. Busses is the only correct plural for buss.
CWLP produces excess electricity that they sell to the commercial vendors like Amerin. That's part of the reason our electric rates are so low.
Free Martian Whores!
Fertiliser production. Also using the Haber-Bosch process with obvious implications for the cost of food vs fuel.
There are 4 big things we can do to save the world, and dependency on oil.
1: Stop throwing away 60% of our energy through "waste" heat. Which is pretty much what every electricity generating plant does.
2: Stop using 50% of our 40% efficient electricity to move heat around... See air conditioning.
3: Stop using 17% efficient vehicles to move us around.
4: Stop generating artificial fertilisers.
The solutions?
1: District Heating and District cooling.
2: Insulation, thermal mass. District cooling and/or evaporative cooling.
3: Walk. Battery electric vehicles for relatively short journeys, personal rapid transit for intermediate and rail for longer journeys.
4: Stop discharging human waste into the ocean. Compost it to destroy pathogens and start using it as fertiliser. The current methods simply move NPK from the land to the ocean.
p.s. I don't expect any of this to actually happen. Humans are stupid animals and it's easier to kill others who threaten resource consumption than it is to change.
Deleted
Talk about ambiguous wording. Does the author include human urine as animal urine? And if human as well as animal urine are included in his reference then what is ruled out? As far as I know only animals urinate and humans are just another form of animal although probably not the nicest form of animal. Maybe it's like that old Exxon ad about putting a tiger in your tank. Tiger urine is probably nasty enough to run an engine without altering it in any way.
won't this produce large amounts of NO(x) pollutants?
that's nothing, Genesys technology can power everything in the world from a glass of tap water. s'true http://www.genesys-hydrogen.com/ (i can't believe i found this, i thought they were in jail years ago)
look sig is kool
Stick your wang in this hole!
Kind of gives a whole new meaning to those unauthorized stickers of Calvin peeing on the rival car brand.
Urea is already mass produced and is used as an additive for a catalytic reduction system (SCR) which reduces NOx emissions from diesel engines. Adblue is one brand.
Wait till the next gen nuclear reactors come online that can use the iodine sulfur cycle to create hydrogen with roughly 50% efficency, then use that hydrogen to produce ammonia, ship it to gas stations and use an inbuilt reformer (95% efficent if I recall) to reverse it into hydrogen.
The total process should be atleast 30% efficient, and if we build the reactors in say, some island far off the coast, and just ship the ammonia out, should be a piece of cake to get it past the 'not in my backyard' legislation.
n/t
Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
2:1 oxygen:hydrogen ratio
O2H.... That's, like, anti-water!
I put the 't' in electrical engineering.
to be pissed on. We just need to piss on a bunch of nickles to get things to work. Coooool
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Hold on a second. If the energy required to split urea into hydrogen is very small, you've just solved the hydrogen storage problem.
Crack the urea on the fly to hydrogen and combust it down to water. What are the waste products of the electrolysis?
Add to that diseases in the general population that increase water volume (such as diabetes).
I personally have "Nephrogenic Renal Diabetes Insipius". With my 5 gallons a day I will be powering a Chu-Chu Train!
if that car could run on bullshit, we could all ride for free.
I personally have "Nephrogenic Renal Diabetes Insipius". With my 5 gallons a day I will be powering a Chu-Chu Train!
As a physician I sympathize with your difficult condition. However as I stated in my previous post - it doesn't matter if you are urinating 1 litre (very roughly the standard daily urine volume) or 19 litres in your case, what is important here is urea. Urine is not the same as urea. Urine contains water, various electrolytes, and also urea. In your case, with diabetes insipidus (which is essentially a failure of the collecting duct to do it's job and re-concentrate urine), you are losing HUGE volumes of WATER per day. However your output of urea is probably not much more than a "normal" person. So although you are urinating almost non-stop, your urine is very dilute. If I was to take those 5 gallons and filter out the urea in all of them, it would probably be the same as a normal person, since your urine is not at all concentrated.
Urea is not a product of how much you urinate, but rather a product of how many proteins your body decides to de-aminate (ie. turn amino acids (from protein) into other stuff that isn't amino acids by removing those pesky NH2 groups). A person who does a lot of exercise will produce more urea in 24 hours than you do with your 5 gallons of urine. A person who eats 2 lbs of red meat in a day will produce far more urea than you do, since the body will have to find something to do with all those amino acids (from the protein in the red meat) - so it will de-aminate them (producing urea) and turn them into sugars then fats for storage.
I understand you were trying to be light-hearted, but I just can't help trying to get people to understand how their bodies actually work. I have to show something for 6 months of suffering through biochemistry classes!
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
Pissed on powered! Geddit? ahahaha
It's important to recognize that hydrogen is not an energy source as it currently stands, due to the amount of energy needed to separate it. As such, it's more of a portable storage mechanism for energy, requiring about three times the equivalent amount of energy as battery technology to power vehicles. That means if you want green cars, you can use solar-generated energy to charge three battery-powered vehicles for the energy required to power one hydrogen vehicle. Can you think of a good rationale for requiring three times the amount of green power generation and three times the expense in order to support a hydrogen car infrastructure? No? Neither can I. That's why hydrogen has been a lame duck lately. What this discovery does, essentially, is make it theoretically possible for hydrogen to be about as efficient as TODAY'S battery technology, IF CREATED UNDER IDEAL CIRCUMSTANCES. That's important, as there could be an energy cost associated with getting urea in a form and to a location required for processing into hydrogen. It also does not address the energy and infrastructure costs stemming from the delivery of hydrogen to the consumer. In other words, it's almost as efficient as batteries today, but probably has some hard scientific limitations on just how efficient this process can get which are more rigid than the technical limitations regarding tomorrow's battery technology, which has been improving considerably. So there are serious reasons to suspect that hydrogen would be rather inefficient compared to batteries in the future. So, it's a temporary draw, but quite possibly a longterm loss. Batteries and flywheels are likely to be the longterm winners.
Alright, I knew my tinkle was good for something!
'He who has to break a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom.' -- Gandalf to Saruman
So will pissing on a spark-plug do any good now?
Slow Down Cowboy! It's been 1 hour, 47 minutes since you last successfully posted a comment
"energy analysts are skeptical about the overall energy balance of cars fueled by hydrogen"
I bet they are, because this balance is exactly zero! Hydrogen does not come out nowhere and magically produces energy, it has to come from somewhere. The question is: how is produced the energy that splits H20? Using urine may be a way to harness some "natural power", but some animals do fart a lot of methan, so exhaustion gas are just moved from cars to farms...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riverworld
That's where they got their hydrogen, plus nitrates to make gunpowder
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
Throw in flying cars (powered by piss) and you've got yourself a deal.
I am sitting on a gold mine!
Public intoxication varies in different areas, in Monterey CA it is at the discretion of the officer. If you know your under .08 your better off driving than walking, in Monterey anyway.
The purpose of language is communication, If the idea is clear the grammar ain't important
Since a major portion of the nitrogen and phosphorus going into the ocean comes from city waste water that's full of urine diverting that urine into energy production solves another problem as well. The oceans can rejoice with the removal of all that fertilizer from the system.
"Be kind, for everyone you meet is facing a great battle." - Philo of Alexandria -