Stallman Says Pirate Party Hurts Free Software

bonch writes "Richard Stallman has written an article on the GNU Web site describing the effect the Swedish Pirate Party's platform would have on the free software movement. While he supports general changes to copyright law, he makes a point that many anti-copyright proponents don't realize — the GPL itself is a copyright license that relies on copyright law to protect access to source code. According to Stallman, the Pirate Party's proposal of a five-year limit on copyright would remove the freedom users have to gain access to source code by eventually allowing its inclusion in proprietary products. Stallman suggests requiring proprietary software to also release its code within five years to even the balance of power."

Comments

Correction

[Jack9]

Stallman Says Pirate Party Hurts HIS VERSION OF Free Software

FTFY

Re:Correction

[pilgrim23]

Its the eye-patch; it detracts from the visual purity of the cosmic goodness of the beard

Re:Correction

[bonch]

Any GPL code would lose its protected status, which would apply to most of the free software you use. The whole point of the GPL is to give users access to source indefinitely, and that's why it's amusing when Slashdot's readership adopts all these anti-copyright positions that would end up invalidating the GPL, because the GPL is a license that copyrights the source code. Without GPL protection (aka, copyright protection), proprietary vendors could do whatever they wanted with your code.

It really gives one the impression that Slashdot's readers just accept whichever position is most self-serving--ranting about the evils of copyrights in a pro-piracy article (because they want free stuff from P2P networks), and ranting about the evils of commercial corporations in a GPL violation article (because they want free GPL software). You can't have it both ways.

Re:Correction

[mcgrew]

Reading TFA, I see there's one thing the P Party says that I don't agree with: the five year copyright term. Yes, copyrights are far too long, but five years is far too short. IINM it was 20 years extendable to thirty in 1900, that seems to me a good length. If you can't make any money off your work after twenty years you're not going to, and if you HAVE made money off of it in twenty years, well, you've made your money, you have been encouraged to do more creating. If the programs I'd registered copyright on had made me a millionaire, I'd be on a beach somewhere with a cold drink in my hand.

Stallman says:
Even if copyright permits noncommercial sharing, the EULA may forbid it.

I still don't see how clickthrough EULAs can possibly be seen as a "contract". My friend Mike buys a program and since he's not technologically savvy, he has me (or his son) install it for him. He's bought and paid for the copy; he owns that copy. Unlike the dinasaur days when the world only had a few hundred computers, he didn't sign any contract. Now, I or his son installs HIS software on HIS computer, and he doesn't even likely know there IS a contract. How can he be held to that so-called "contract"?

As to DRM, I think if you use DRM your work should not be eligible for copyright at all. That's what copyright is for - to protect the work.

Noncommercial copying should not be against the law, and before the digital age it wasn't.

From TFA:
Users, still denied the source code, would still be unable to use the program in freedom. The program could even have a "time bomb" in it to make it stop working after 5 years, in which case the "public domain" copies would not run at all.

This should be illegal. And software can be reverse engineered and a third party patch applied.

Once the Swedish Pirate Party had announced its platform, free software developers noticed this effect and began proposing a special rule for free software: to make copyright last longer for free software, so that it can continue to be copylefted

First, Stallman says he would be happy with ten years, I don't agree. But I'm a geezer, 20 years is a lot longer to a 27 year old than it is to a 57 year old*. Secondly, after the original copyright expired, all the parts of the work written after original copyright are still protected by copyright; if GNU's copyright were to run out tomorrow, all enhancements made to GNU would still be under copyright.

I could support a law that would make GPL-covered software's source code available in the public domain after 5 years, provided it has the same effect on proprietary software's source code

Personally, I don't think you should be able to copyright object code. The purpose of copyright (in the US at least) is to get works into the public domain. The source code should be available to the public, justas details of a patented machine are. After all, the whole idea is to "promote the progress of the useful arts and sciences", not to line somebody's pockets.

That said, it's been said that when you're selling something, make the asking price high and you can always come down. Perhaos this is what the PP's "5 years" is about: "Ok, we'll compromise on a 30 year copyright length".

I'd liketo see another reform that Free Software fols disagree on me with: I'd like one to actually have to register a copyright. There should be no registration fee, and registration could be done at your country's copyright office's web site.

*Yes, Im aware that Stalman is a geezer, too.

Re:Correction

[multisync]

He doesn't have the power to do so, but his explicitly stated goal is for people to only use "Free" software, where "Free" refers to his own twisted definition.

Why does that bother you?

He would like all computer users to enjoy the same freedom that users of GPL software enjoy. Born again Christians would like everyone to accept Jesus as their savior. Obama would like everyone to buy a domestic car. I would like developed nations to work together to improve the standard of living in underdeveloped nations. You would probably like to change the world to bring it more in line with your own ideals if you could.

Other people working to achieve their goals doesn't impact you in any way unless they are able to force you to toe their line. Since you've stated that Stallman is not able to force you to do anything, why do you have a problem with him working to further his goals?

And while we're at it, what exactly is "twisted" about the FSF's definition of free software? Ensuring the user has complete control over their own property seems like a pretty good definition of freedom to me. If you don't agree with Stallman's definition - and assuming you are not just trolling on behalf of Microsoft - I would really like to know what exactly it is that you object to. Is the very existence of the FSF in some way harming you?

Re:Correction

[Otto]

Sorry, but no. Not to Stallman. "Free" has nothing to do with "cost" in his world.

"Free as in speech" is not a metaphor.

Re:Correction

[anagama]

Without copyright, all software is free by definition.

Slow down cowboy, even if copyright ended tomorrow, all that needs happen is for a software developer to say, OK -- I will only release a binary to people who sign a contract with me that says I can sue them for breach if they distribute the software, and perhaps includes a liquidated damages provision (*). Just because copyright ends, doesn't mean you have the right to have someone else's work on your own terms. The only thing it would do would be to make it impossible to sue a user who did _not_ contract with the developer -- although a startup screen offering you the ability to agree to certain terms and use the program, or close it and not use the program, would be a way around even that.

Secondly, the end of copyright does not say anything about whether a company will give you the source code, and you'll face some stiff criminal penalties if you try to break in and steal it.

All the end of copyright would do is make the world full of different individual contracts -- reducing the standardization would mean a huge amount additional lawsuits and appeals over definitions and such, and would be very costly to companies and consumers who will ultimately eat those costs in the purchase price.

(*) liquidated damages provisions can be hard to enforce, but are used where it is difficult to calculate actual damages. The thing is, if you end up getting sued, you lose even if you win because winning is costly.

Re:Correction

[vijayiyer]

Did you consider that developers releasing under BSD might actually enjoy the fact that their code may have a much wider use rate than GPL developers? Lots of software released under BSD has changed the world. That might be more attractive to some developers than ensuring that derivative works are always free.

Re:Correction

[recoiledsnake]

If you ever understood why Richard Stallman takes exactly the stance he takes, you would never make so a silly statement.

Richard Stallman saw his own code he wrote for his own projects incorporated in a commercial product and got forbidden to ever reuse or publish his own code. And thus because the company in question had a license in place that basicly made all changes and extension to the code base the property of the company.

So Richard Stallman sought a way to make such a code grap impossible by design - by inventing a license that removes all your rights to all the code you were given the moment you try to shield it from other people.

So when Richard Stallman says that the GPL-type licenses are here not only to open source, but to keep the software actually free, then he has a point.

If you because of your limited experience don't see the point, it's not Richard Stallman's fault.

WRONG. No company stole his code. Stop making shit up and then accusing others of being of 'limited experience'. Good job on gaming Slashdot to get +4 insightful though. It's so easy, just write what they want to hear. The real reason Stallman did what he did: From http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/shouldbefree.html

The MIT Artificial Intelligence Lab (AI Lab) received a graphics printer as a gift from Xerox around 1977. It was run by free software to which we added many convenient features. For example, the software would notify a user immediately on completion of a print job. Whenever the printer had trouble, such as a paper jam or running out of paper, the software would immediately notify all users who had print jobs queued. These features facilitated smooth operation. Later Xerox gave the AI Lab a newer, faster printer, one of the first laser printers. It was driven by proprietary software that ran in a separate dedicated computer, so we couldn't add any of our favorite features. We could arrange to send a notification when a print job was sent to the dedicated computer, but not when the job was actually printed (and the delay was usually considerable). There was no way to find out when the job was actually printed; you could only guess. And no one was informed when there was a paper jam, so the printer often went for an hour without being fixed. The system programmers at the AI Lab were capable of fixing such problems, probably as capable as the original authors of the program. Xerox was uninterested in fixing them, and chose to prevent us, so we were forced to accept the problems. They were never fixed.

Re:Correction

[7-Vodka]

Got to love the Stallman haters. Must be the definition of not having a life.

"He demands 100% compliance with his growing list of restrictions, or you aren't free. Freedom is not a list of restrictions. In reality, he wants to remove rights, give you a list of restrictions, and do so to protect the interests of developers, protecting their code from being stolen."

"Stallman helped to start a movement that empowers developers by creating a new category of licenses to use for their code, empowers users by granting them express permissions and effectively locks out embrace and extend."

There, I fixed it for ya. Once you wash the smell of B.S. from the original statement it looks quite different.

BTW, every troll who says something stupid when taking a position against Free Software then defends themselves with the argument that they obviously logical and impartial because they 'run linux'.
That is analogous to making ignorant racist remarks and then defending your position by claiming that you "have a black friend".

Re:Correction

[Draek]

I've seen the "freedom means no restrictions at all" argument plenty of times here at Slashdot, and it makes me wonder whether we truly are a community of intelligent, reasoning geeks. Simply put, if we define "freedom" as "lack of any restriction whatsoever", freedom contradicts itself.

Its easy to see why if we modify the Liar's Paradox a little: do you have the freedom to take away others' freedoms? if so, then people can be restricted, therefore there is no freedom, but if not, you're restricted from doing so and, therefore, there's no freedom.

If, however, we define "freedom" as "the sum of potential actions for each individual", its easy to see how restricting one's freedom to take away others' freedoms would, in the end, result in a higher freedom except in the case where nobody would use said freedom, in which case such restriction is irrelevant.

The latter seems to be Stallman's definition of "freedom", and is one that I agree with. But if you have another potential definition that does not fall prey to the same paradox, I'll be glad to hear it and consider it. And honestly, I think the same goes for RMS.

Re:Correction

[discord5]

Richard Stallman saw his own code he wrote for his own projects incorporated in a commercial product and got forbidden to ever reuse or publish his own code. And thus because the company in question had a license in place that basicly made all changes and extension to the code base the property of the company.

Then the Stallman put on his Open Sauce cape, jumped out of an open window and flew to the moon. There he went into meditation for 25 years to discover the secrets of cheese. And upon his return he came back with superpowers and destroyed the company in question with his mighty beard, and the whole world rejoiced and then the Stallman created world peace with his open sauce.

There, if you have to make shit up, at least make it believable.

Re:Correction

[ShieldW0lf]

Is a country that gives you the freedom to keep slaves more free than a country that doesn't?

If you repackage my software and are better at marketing it than me, but you build vendor lock in into the code and a million people end up beholden to you as a consequence, did my code help bring people freedom?

Why do drug companies have to release their secret recipies, and car companies have to submit to stringent supervision, but software companies are allowed to release binary software onto billions of computers with absolutely zero oversight?

Releasing source should be required. It's a public safety concern that it is not.

Re:Correction

[multisync]

Right, so now I am an MS troll

Actually, what I said was "assuming you are not just trolling on behalf of Microsoft" I would like a response. In other words, if you are simply trolling, don't bother. Thanks for giving me one.

What DOES bother me is when either of them are striving to extend their political influence

How is he striving to extend his political influence? By advocating free software? There is a pretty long list of parties who are exerting real influence on politicians. Stallman is simply doing what every company does when they bring a product to market. If you honestly believe that Steve Ballmer wouldn't like every computer to run Windows, and isn't striving to extend his political influence to achieve that goal, then I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

He demands 100% compliance with his growing list of restrictions, or you aren't free

"Growing list of restriction?" A quick glance at the "What is free software?" page covers the same ground it always has, as far as I can tell. I won't recite the four software freedoms, but they are the only "restrictions" I know of that bind developers who license their software under the GPL. What do you mean by a "growing list?" Can you provide more information please?

Freedom is not a list of restrictions

Neither is the GPL. It enumerates the qualities that the FSF believes software (or more accurately its license) must possess for them to consider it "free." It's no different than me saying without self-determination I am not free. If you want to see that as me placing a "restriction on freedom" that's your business, but I don't see how you can define something without identifying the qualities it possesses.

In reality, he wants to remove rights, give you a list of restrictions, and do so to protect the interests of developers, protecting their code from being stolen."

Wow, I don't even know where to begin with that. Let me give you my take:

He wants to extend rights, define the qualities that make software free and do so to protect the interest of users, protecting them from being subjected to the will of developers. At least that's what I get from "the freedom to run the program, to study how it works, to share it with others and to make improvements to it." (sorry, I know I said I wouldn't recite the list, but I felt it was necessary to make my point).

You are most certainly entitled to disagree with Stallman, to think the GPL is BS and to voice your opinion to anyone who will listen. I'm not questioning that. But you haven't done much to convince me Stallman is restricting anyone's rights. If you write code, don't license it under the GPL if it offends you. If you simply use software, then you can happily ignore the GPL altogether, since (unlike every EULA I've ever read) it places no restrictions on the user.

Why wait 5 years?

[Hatta]

If access to source code is truly a right, shouldn't that right be enshrined in law from day one?

Re:Why wait 5 years?

[wizardforce]

Precisely. I think the pirate party is making a bargain here as to not look like info-anarchists. 5 years is only a compromise between the ideal and what exists today.

Re:Why wait 5 years?

[ArsonSmith]

dumbass, that's not in the Constitution. It's in the Deceleration of Independence.

Lessig Already Proposed this

[Reverend528]

I'm pretty sure Lessig already proposed this 5 years ago. Both ideas of short copyright and a requirement that the source code should be released for copyright to be valid.

Re:Lessig Already Proposed this

[l3ert]

This is why Stallman waited until now to propose it.

Re:Lessig Already Proposed this

[jwthompson2]

The second session of the United States Congress established 14 year Copyright terms with an optional 14 year renewal. Going back to that and requiring publication for application of Copyright would be a good step.

Re:Lessig Already Proposed this

[jmorris42]

> a requirement that the source code should be released for copyright to be valid.

The solution is simple. Binaries are an accidental byproduct of the current technology so don't build the law around them. Solve the real problem.

Copyright is supposed to be a benefit to the public by granting a limited monopoly to encourage the production of new things which eventually go into the public domain. Current copyright law combined with current commercial software release methods do neither. The time limit is such that any program in the public domain will be useful only to archaeologists running emulators and without the source they won't learn much at any rate.

Yes cut the time limit for software, that is the first part.

Then clarify Copyright Law to require the benefit to the public. Only the Source Code, written by humans, is a creative work worthy of copyright so the complete buildable source plus all control scripts, etc must be submitted when registering the copyright. The binaries will only be copyrighted as 'derived works' of that original work.

Software makers would howl about revealing their secret methods. My reply is Copyright isn't supposed to protect secrets, the idea is to REVEAL knowledge in exchange for the limited monopoly. Same for patents.

I believe that would solve RMS's problems with the proposed five year copyright term.

subject

[Anonymous Coward]

Honestly, merely reducing copyright to 40 years from creation would be a MASSIVE step in the right direction.

Release later?

[Tubal-Cain]

Stallman suggests requiring proprietary software to also release its code within five years to even the balance of power.

Why not require the source code to be submitted with the copyright registration?

Re:Release later?

[mrvan]

This actually makes a lot of sense.

In the original purpose of copyright law - books and other written material - there is no source code other than the thing that is distributed.

In a sense, companies like MS use copyright not to be a sole distributer of the copyrighted material (the source code), but to prevent all distribution of said material. By withholding the "manuscript", we ("the people") are granting a temporary monopoly on something we don't even really know what it is.

Computer programs are quite different from the creative works copyright was intended for, and also quite different from the "machines" and "inventions" patents were intended for. By trying to apply legislation to something quite different than what it was meant for we are creating a lot of problems, including overly broad patents, copyright monopoly on something that isn't distributed at all, unclear definition of derivative work in the face of bundling, linking, and reverse engineering, etc. etc..

Instead of limiting copyright to X years (possibly a very good idea for books, songs etc.), I think we need to think of a way to protect software makers from abuse of the fruits of his/her labour, while giving "the people" something substantive in return for the monopoly, the policing, etc.

This solution could include registering source code but it might be better to protect a "program" or "solution" than to try to protect source code as if it is some kind of literary work, and then extend that to the compiled version of that source code

Re:Either you agree with copyrights or you don't

[h4rr4r]

How so?
He wants it one way, GPL software should be protected. That is it, he seems fine with copyright for that purpose. He does support reducing the term of copyrights, but fears that this will lead to the inclusion of GPL software in products were the user has less rights.

Personally copyright should last a little longer than 5 years but not life+70 or whatever steamboat willy is up to these days. Any sold software should have to come with source, because without it the product has very little value as time goes on.

Stallman Says

[sys.stdout.write]

We played Stallman Says at computer camp last summer. It's like Simon Says except the winner gets a fake beard to wear for the rest of the afternoon.

I... don't kiss many girls.

Re:Either you agree with copyrights or you don't

[Enderandrew]

I rarely agree with RMS these days (as I discuss in a post below) but I don't agree with typical piracy either. I've done it, but as I get older, I want to pay for products.

I see the game companies I loved as a kid all go out of business, each citing piracy as a primary reason their PC game sales dropped. Other companies just shifted to console development, where piracy is more difficult. If you don't pay to support a product, don't expect that product to exist forever. I also believe a creator deserves the right to be financially rewarded for their creations. Being able to just take that creation for free isn't a right.

I still download a few albums illegally, but if I like them, I usually buy them afterward. Certain artists, I just buy the albums directly.

The only "piracy" I outright support is on two issues.

1 - Preservation of abandonware. If no one is selling a product for 5 years, you should be able to distribute it for preservation. You can not charge to distribute another person's product. If the creator re-releases the product, you can no longer distribute it again for 5 years.

2 - The DCMA says I can't legally circumvent copyright protection, but sadly copyright protection often interferes with software working correctly. I use no-cd/no-dvd patches on every game I own, and try to strip DRM from all software that I can, because I want the software to work correctly.

THE TRUTH

[Anonymous Coward]

Richard Stallman is jealous that pirates have the better beards.

Re:Stallman hurts free software

[null etc.]

This is worthy of a new acronym: DRMS.

Re:Isn't Stallman the one...

[the Atomic Rabbit]

> Isn't Stallman the one who insists that open source software is inevitably better,

No, you have Stallman confused with open source evangelists. Stallman has always maintained that whether or not free software is "better" is irrelevant; that its being freer is which matters.

Re:Either you agree with copyrights or you don't

[jythie]

Eh, having worked in the game industry.... I've found that 'piracy killed our product' is really a cover for 'we don't understand the market well enough, so we will blame something concrete'.

Thus I tend to take management saying that as they are so out of touch with the actual marketplace that they lead the company into it's own black hole but do not want any blame associated with them and thus hurt their chances of moving on to other companies to ruin.

Re:Stallman hurts free software

[IntlHarvester]

While Stallman is a zealot, I think you need to re-read his statement, because it's an entirely reasonable explanation of how free/open source software would be affected by a short copyright term. Essentially open source code would be forced into the public domain, while closed source software would not.

Plus, if you follow his argument, reducing the copyright term would actually increase the use of DRM in closed source software.

5 years is just too short, try 15.

[GiMP]

I think that the optimal number of years is closer to 15, it should be treated like "classic cars" are in Pennsylvania. This is enough years that publishers have had sufficient time to make profit, that the work has had sufficient opportunity to make and exploit its cultural impact, and is not so many years that the work is lost from lack of preservation.

In terms of software, 15 years is quite a bit of time, enough that software is unlikely to be of significant commercial use, so that copyright-lapsed software shouldn't too seriously affect the sales of modern solutions. Open sourced material lapsed into the public domain wouldn't be as much of a concern as it would be within a 5 year period.

If this was in force today, old versions of the GNU toolkits, the X11 system, and even Linux itself would be in the public domain. That might seem scary, but we're talking really old versions. If someone in 2009 wants to include Linux 0.99 into their embedded product without contributing their changes back, I'm not sure thats really a bad thing.

He's nuts

[Anonymous Coward]

Stallman was at my university for a lecture a few months ago. Halfway through he starts lambasting our IT department, most of whom are in the audience, for requiring users to authenticate before gaining network access. The school has a policy specifically *banning* tracking usage or anything invasive. They only require that users provide a username/password before getting network access, and he tears them a new one.

The IT department, BTW, is moving *away* from proprietary (specifically Microsoft) products. Right as the IT department is moving *to* open source, one of FOSS's biggest names decides to publicly hate on them.

Re:Either you agree with copyrights or you don't

[Enderandrew]

So companies like Looking Glass Studios and Origin didn't understand their market well enough?

Every RPG enthusiast I know has played Planescape: Torment. Yet none of them purchased it. The game was deemed a commercial failure, and I'm not sure we'll ever see another game like it, despite the fact that Penny Arcade called it simply the greatest PC game of all time, and most RPG lovers call it their favorite.

It might be an excuse used by management to cover a bad product in some cases, but piracy does affect game sales to an extent.

And when you don't pay to support products, you can't bitch when those products disappear.

Re:Stallman hurts free software

[Wannabe Code Monkey]

Stallman hurts free software

Maybe you should read what he actually wrote. His argument is very tempered and coherent. I believe the heart of it comes down to this sentence

The difference between source code and object code and the practice of using EULAs would give proprietary software an effective exception from the general rule of 5-year copyright -- one that free software does not share.

This is how software is different from other copyright-able works. With a song or book, the copyrighted thing is the end result and what is distributed to users. As soon as a song falls into the public domain (whether 5 years or 100 years) the actual work is out there for others to use, copy, modify, whatever. But with proprietary software, the copyrighted material is kept closed and secret. The thing the users have is a compiled version that can't easily (or sometimes at all) be used in another project or modified or learned from, even once it's in the public domain.

With insanely long copyright terms, proprietary software is protected by the fact that you don't have access to their source code and the law; whereas free software is only protected by the law. Once you take away the force of law after 5 years, proprietary software is still protected by the secrecy, and free software is completely unprotected.

Now if you want to get into a holy war over the GPL vs. BSD, fine, but that's a separate argument. If you care at all about the GPL, then RMSs point about the Pirate Party's goal makes a whole lot of sense.

Re:Anyone Give A Shit What That Clown Says? Anyone

[smittyoneeach]

Far from it. RMS is the modern John the Baptist. He is an important part of the overall discussion, even if you don't agree with him.

Nah

[commodoresloat]

He said his main concern is that they should change the name to the GNU/Pirate Party

Re:Anyone Give A Shit What That Clown Says? Anyone

[Weedhopper]

Stallman gives everyone perspective.

He's the the guy you point to and say, "See that guy over there? That guy's the alternative." Makes anything you say seem moderate and rational in comparison.

Re:Anyone Give A Shit What That Clown Says? Anyone

[dgatwood]

25 years is way too long for software copyrights. Here's a challenge: name one piece of commercially distributed software that still works *without modification* on modern hardware after 25 years and is still useful in some way.... Bear in mind that 25 years ago, the state of the art included the Apple IIc, the 128k Mac, the IBM PC AT, etc. This was several years before the first personal computer with a paged memory management unit. I've seen modern wristwatches with more powerful CPUs. Apart from arcade game nostalgia and a few legacy financial systems, I think it's safe to say that there is basically nothing of value in code from that far back. Everything of value had to be updated, massively reworked, or rewritten hundreds of times since then to remain useful.

The purpose of copyright is to encourage creation of new works and to expire after a period of time to enrich the public domain. Copyright durations of 25+ years on software do neither. They don't contribute to the public domain because the software is useless by the time the end of the copyright period is reached, and they don't encourage creation of new software because companies are allowed to rest on their laurels, not creating anything until their copyright runs out or until changes to the underlying OS/hardware force them to update their software to keep selling it.

Remember that, at least in the U.S., derivative works are also protected by copyright, so the version 2.0 can still be protected by copyright after the copyright on version 1.0 expires. There's no benefit to having copyright on older versions of software unless the new versions don't offer enough advantage to be worth buying, in which case they don't deserve protection anyway. I strongly feel the policy should be, "Innovate or die." If you aren't improving the state of technology---if you're just making money off something you created decades ago---then you are no longer contributing to society and don't deserve to be rewarded for your lack of contribution.

Five years after first release is long enough. Ten years is barely acceptable. Twenty-five years is obscene. The current 120 years is outright grand larceny from the public domain.