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Variety, Social Aspects More Important To Game Success Than Graphics, Plot

proslack writes "In a study presented at the Human-Computer Interaction conference in Cambridge, England, British researchers Beale and Bond found that plot and graphics are not critical to the success of video games; price and the inclusion of social aspects (e.g. multiplayer or chat) were found to be more important." An unfinished version of the paper (PDF) is available from the researchers' web site. They said, "One of the most unexpected findings was that gameplay was not featured as one of the most important categories to fulfill," though they acknowledge that variety and cohesion were measured separately from gameplay, which past studies have not done.

236 comments

  1. Makes sense by davidphogan74 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    In other news fun is more important to a games success than graphics, plot.

    1. Re:Makes sense by snadrus · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I was thinking the same. How about gameplay as a measure of games?

      --
      Science & open-source build trust from peer review. Learn systems you can trust.
    2. Re:Makes sense by lorenlal · · Score: 4, Interesting

      My favorite example of this is Castle Crashers right now.

      I'm lame, and I didn't discover it until about a month ago, but I'll be damned if it's not my favorite game right now. Flash style animation, simple mechanic, funny elements... That's all I really need.

    3. Re:Makes sense by Goldberg's+Pants · · Score: 1

      Another ridiculous study proving nothing. And an unfinished one no less.

      As the poster above said... FUN is more important.

      This just seems like a study put out by game developers to justify doing even crappier AI than we already get.

      Or of course they didn't ask any actual hardcore gamers who go back to the Atari 2600 as I'd rather spend an hour playing Maze Craze on that than most of what's released today.

    4. Re:Makes sense by ZosX · · Score: 1

      I sure wish they'd port that to pc. I seriously doubt I'll be getting a 360 until I find one in bin for $30.

    5. Re:Makes sense by Spatial · · Score: 1

      They aren't mutually exclusive. Good plot and graphics can make a game fun.

    6. Re:Makes sense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      at which point the social aspects of the game will be very diminished, which is an interestinng downside to this new trend of social gaming.

    7. Re:Makes sense by maharb · · Score: 1

      read the summary much? "One of the most unexpected findings was that gameplay was not featured as one of the most important categories to fulfill,"

    8. Re:Makes sense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While I can understand griping about more effort going into graphics than the "fun" factor, I feel that the term "gameplay" is a bit misleading. What exactly defines gameplay? Is it really something that can be labeled? If you kept all the "gameplay" in a game the same, and replaced the bleeding-edge graphics with crappy low-res textures, would it really still be as enjoyable? Would the "gameplay" remain intact? We have adopted the word gameplay to describe the game as a whole; not any one or two items but the total enjoyment we get out of the game. Trying to compare the gameplay to the graphics or storyline is like comparing apples to fruit - it just doesn't make sense, because the graphics and storyline are part of the gameplay. In contrast, terms like "cohesion" and "variety" are easier to quantify and compare, and therefore offer more precise information about what makes good gameplay.

    9. Re:Makes sense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      See Nethack

    10. Re:Makes sense by rastoboy29 · · Score: 1

      No shit.  It's hard to convince a lot of people of that, though.  I've been working on a game for the last few years with that philosophy in mind, but a lot of the kids just tune out when the graphics aren't like they expect.

      Ironically, I've actually got some pretty far out graphics in some ways, but it's just not cool in the way they expect.

    11. Re:Makes sense by negRo_slim · · Score: 1

      I sure wish they'd port that to pc. I seriously doubt I'll be getting a 360 until I find one in bin for $30.

      100USD and I'm game. Had one in the first couple months, surprisingly DVD-ROM went out and not the RROD, now that I've been burned once I shant be burned again. So I guess to get back on topic, price also plays an important roll in gaming. For instance I still use my ATI x1800XT, draws more power then I like but I find it hard to invest in gaming tech when so few good games come out. It seems to me games eat up ever more sophisticated hardware without a justifiable return of enjoyment.

      --
      On the Oregon Cost born and raised, On the beach is where I spent most of my days
    12. Re:Makes sense by davidphogan74 · · Score: 1

      Great product placement dude, I'll give it a try.

    13. Re:Makes sense by Cheesetrap · · Score: 1

      I seriously doubt I'll be getting a 360 until I find one in bin for $30.

      Jeez!! You must really be in a posh part of town - around here things in bins are free. O.o

    14. Re:Makes sense by Cheesetrap · · Score: 2, Interesting

      at which point the social aspects of the game will be very diminished, which is an interestinng downside to this new trend of social gaming.

      Or you could look at it another way - once the game is no longer being hyped by advertisers, most of those who remain will be real fans of the game (and thus usually people who don't need help or beg for sh*t etc), or people introduced to the game by those already fans (thus won't be needing help from you either), or those doing the same thing as you (who I guess would at least *tend* to be more intelligent, though of course not all bargain hunters are Einstein).. So theoretically it can be a positive.

    15. Re:Makes sense by citizenr · · Score: 1

      its just a clone of Golden Axe

      --
      Who logs in to gdm? Not I, said the duck.
    16. Re:Makes sense by Taco+Cowboy · · Score: 1

      Look, to make your game a success, you don't just develop a game for couple of years without letting it out in the open, y'know?

      Let people try it out, set up a forum where they can send in their feedbacks, and then improve the game on the points that make sense

      If even crappy games like evony and space odyssey can make it, I doubt why your game can't

      --
      Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
    17. Re:Makes sense by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      Not with local multiplayer. Online pretty much expires at some point but local MP works as long as you have friends who can be convinced to play the game.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    18. Re:Makes sense by Mitchell314 · · Score: 1

      Graphics does relate to gameplay when it's the reason you're running at 10 fpm.

      --
      I read TFA and all I got was this lousy cookie
    19. Re:Makes sense by mdwh2 · · Score: 1

      Another ridiculous study proving nothing. And an unfinished one no less.

      As the poster above said... FUN is more important.

      But it's what the OP said that would be completely useless - saying "fun makes a game good" is a complete tautology. The question is then what makes a game fun?

      It's not at all necessarily obvious that say, social aspects are more important than plot.

    20. Re:Makes sense by TheKidWho · · Score: 1

      He does seem to do all that on his forum.

      But regardless, if you're really trying to make money it would be much easier to develop the game as a mod for a more popular game such as HL2 or a map pack for TF2. Gaming communities take a long time to mature**

    21. Re:Makes sense by Moryath · · Score: 1

      Good, solid, well-done SINGLE PLAYER games are still well sought-after. The problem is that "multiplayer" and other buzzword-based crap have gotten pushed in recent years.

      Batman:Arkham Asylum is fantastic and it's a single-player game. Sure, there are "leaderboards", but they're a joke, only put in there for the jerkoff factor of people who get their thrills from seeking out every little "achievement" to a given title to boost their gamerscore before tossing the game in the trash bin and hunting down a new game to hunt achievements down in.

      75% of the games I have held on to, to this day, are single-player (or at least primarily-single-player) titles. That ratio hasn't changed in recent years. The rest are party-game type games.

      The only reason this "study" found those elements "essential" is that that's what the big-name companies have been hyping. Put that level of advertising hype behind any other game and you'd get the same result. Hell, Brute Farce managed to make "Xbox Platinum" despite the fact that it was selling for $5 in the used bin within a month of its initial release.

    22. Re:Makes sense by tbannist · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think they simply don't know that there are different types of people who like different types of games.

      Some people play for the shiny.
      Some people play to collect.
      Some people play to show off.
      Some people play to talk.
      Some people play to explore.
      Some people play for the plot.

      Lumping them all together will, by necessity, leave you with only the cross demographic factors like price, and some of the larger factors that cut across several groups. The show-offs, collectors and talkers all like multiplayer games because they require an audience, hence that shows up as a net positive as long as the other groups aren't actively opposed to multiplayer.

      In short: Most people like pie. Therefore all games should be made of pie.

      --
      Fanatically anti-fanatical
    23. Re:Makes sense by gblackwo · · Score: 1

      I have the same card, the 512mb x1800XT, and currently all the games I want to play this card does fine on. I can't justify a newer faster more efficient card until there is a game I want to play it can't max out cause it still does a great job. Maybe SCII will be that game.

    24. Re:Makes sense by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      Seconded. How is gameplay NOT one of the metrics? That's the main reason I buy games... I play Ratchet and Clank because it's just fun. There's no online play, no multiplayer, and it's not exceptionally cheap.

    25. Re:Makes sense by MarbleMunkey · · Score: 1

      10 frames per milli-second?! Quake 3 must look awesome!

    26. Re:Makes sense by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      I don't understand the multiplayer part sometimes. I'd like to see a few good single player games, and a few good multiplayer games, and not a mixed up hybrid that doesn't succeed well at either.

      Face it, if we nerdy types were more social, we wouldn't be playing computer games in the first place.

    27. Re:Makes sense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      From the draft of the findings:

      A strong correlation between Gamespot scores and Metacritic led to the decision to use online game reviews from Gamespot UK [4] as the data source, since it was the text and phrases in the reviews that we needed to analyse.

      They haven't studied what makes a good game, they've studied what it is that critics get noisy about.

    28. Re:Makes sense by rastoboy29 · · Score: 1

      Thank you for the tips, my friend.  Unfortunately even though my game is downloadable and playable today, I have a forum, etc. if nobody knows about it, they can't give me feedback :-)
      I do  have a great small group of people who stop by regularly, but it's slow going.
      Please try it out--it's free!

  2. Doubt it... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Bull, as far as I am concerned:

    1) Plot
    2) Price
    3) Graphics
    .
    .
    .
    374) Social

    1. Re:Doubt it... by Yvan256 · · Score: 1

      You place multiplayer capabilities at #374? Seriously?

    2. Re:Doubt it... by Telephone+Sanitizer · · Score: 2, Insightful

      1) Plot 2) Price 3) Graphics . . . 374) Social

      That's about right. If the core game sucks, it sucks more with a friend present and online-play can't fix it.

    3. Re:Doubt it... by pushing-robot · · Score: 1

      You place multiplayer capabilities at #374? Seriously?

      Yeah, totally. Half-life, Zelda, Splinter Cell, and Super Mario Bros. would have been so much better as MMOs.

      (/me stops typing before I start to sound like Gabe.)

      --
      How can I believe you when you tell me what I don't want to hear?
    4. Re:Doubt it... by davidphogan74 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Wasn't the Half-Life mod Counter-Strike (which requires other players) pretty freaking awesome? IMO, it kind of sucked to play against bots.

    5. Re:Doubt it... by WCguru42 · · Score: 1

      How about GoldenEye, Smash Bros, Battletoads, Mario Kart, Street Fighter, etc.

      --
      "Educate the mind but never at the expense of the soul."~Blessed Basil Moreau
    6. Re:Doubt it... by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      Battletoads with a second player was NOT better...

      Good gods...

    7. Re:Doubt it... by negRo_slim · · Score: 1

      IMO, it kind of sucked to play against bots.

      Maybe in a game that doesn't natively support them, UT sure did a heck of a job with em, IMO.

      --
      On the Oregon Cost born and raised, On the beach is where I spent most of my days
    8. Re:Doubt it... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, besides for the "having fun with your friends" part I guess...

    9. Re:Doubt it... by Cheesetrap · · Score: 1

      You place multiplayer capabilities at #374? Seriously?

      Yeah, sheesh.. #373 is the ability to select "scrambled" or "sunny side up" for your Hero's breakfast before hitting the road. o.O

    10. Re:Doubt it... by Cheesetrap · · Score: 1

      Bull, as far as I am concerned:

      How long have you known you're autistic?

      .

      .

      .

      .

      Disclaimer: I have ass-burgers, so I'm allowed to make relevant puns. You know, like Chris Rock can make jokes about those of his melanin-endowed persuasion being delinquent and a drain on society, or wops and lebs can make awesome shows like Pizza . :D

    11. Re:Doubt it... by Martin+Blank · · Score: 1

      CS 1.6 is still heavily played, many years after CS:Source was released. The graphics certainly haven't kept up, but the tactical and social aspects made it worth playing for a long time. It probably is still worth playing, only I don't have the time to keep the skills up (not that they were fantastic to begin with).

      --
      You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
    12. Re:Doubt it... by TheThiefMaster · · Score: 1

      However, if the core gameplay is only "ok", playing with friends does improve it.

      More accurately, it stops a decent game getting boring after playing it through once.

    13. Re:Doubt it... by Compuser · · Score: 1

      Well, I think I am the only weirdo here. I like mostly single-player fps games (quake 2 being all-time favorite) and of those games I like ones where there are unusual bugs which can be exploited to advance in unusual ways. I am basically a beta-tester at heart and quirky bugs is what I mostly want in a game.

    14. Re:Doubt it... by Kreigaffe · · Score: 1

      CS 1.6 is played because a lot, a LOT, of CS players did not care for the Source engine and what it did to their game. Rubber barrels, rubber barrels.

      --
      ... still waiting for this free-as-in-beer free beer I keep hearing about. :|
    15. Re:Doubt it... by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      Having fun with...?!

      We're talking Civil War reenactment here, except instead of being over states' sovereignty, it was over whose fault it was that you just punched each other off the cliff *again* or who sucked so bad that after 22 continues you still couldn't beat the damn jetski stage...

    16. Re:Doubt it... by Fred_A · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You place multiplayer capabilities at #374? Seriously?

      Given the lame state of games on most servers, I don't place multiplayer very high either.

      See The More Things Change for an example among many...

      --

      May contain traces of nut.
      Made from the freshest electrons.
    17. Re:Doubt it... by Trent+Hawkins · · Score: 1

      Bull, as far as I am concerned: 1) Plot 2) Price 3) Graphics . . . 374) Social

      I guess this means you are anti-social

    18. Re:Doubt it... by PitaBred · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      That, and most multiplayer games are shit like Halo and COD, which suck donkey cock on a control pad. It's just sad watching people play FPSs on a console.

    19. Re:Doubt it... by kalirion · · Score: 1

      So Plot, Price, and Graphics are more important than gameplay? I guess you're into visual novels then (though I have no idea how much they cost...)

    20. Re:Doubt it... by Alvare · · Score: 1

      1) Gameplay (else you won't play it long enough to appreciate the plot)
      2) Plot (because gameplay will get boring after a while)
      3) Variability (GoW may be extremely playable and have a good plot but it isn't worth playing it more than 2 times, unlike Metal Gear or GTA: San Andreas)
      4) Acting (characters have to stand out and be real to let one merge into the plot)

      Social is out of the question, games aren't for that.
      And price would matter only in a less pirated market.

      --
      4 - A robot may not masturbate, except where such action would conflict with the Second Law.
    21. Re:Doubt it... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      HURRY! GET IN THE WARP!

      It's not as fun as say, TMNT 2 or an RBI game with friends, I'll give you that.

      All the more reason to screen your friends for signs of noobishness ;)

    22. Re:Doubt it... by Yvan256 · · Score: 1

      Which is why I would soooo like for a company to have balls and release a first-person shooter on Windows, Mac OS X, Linux, Xbox 360, Wii and PS3, all able to play in the same games.

      We'd make the console players cry, a lot. Having played Metroid Prime 3, I do think the Wii players could potentially be dangerous though.

  3. Ha Ha by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Are you telling me that in an industry where most of the products don't even have a plot that a statistical study would suggest plot has little to do with sales! That's... entirely expected I should hope, good thing this story comes from a blog and not a respected university, or I might be worried.

  4. Nahh by Magreger_V · · Score: 1

    I think we are thinking too deep into this. I wonder how we ever got by before multiplayer.

    1. Re:Nahh by CrazyJim1 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You know the day I heard of Quantum Link on C64 was the day I started dreaming of MMORPGS. I found games less fun to play because I had in my mind the perfect MMORPG. I spent thousands of hours over a decade and a half trying to code MMORPGS. Now that MMORPGS are out and boring, my ultimate dreams for video games is sorta deflated.

      I have a new dream though. It isn't as big as the old dream, but it could be potentially more fun. Game Master driven CRPGS. I know they have them already, but I'd want to do one well. Theoretically, you can get a better experience through a computer than Pencil and Paper. And with computer you can play with people who all aren't in the same physical location. This dream isn't big enough to pursue however. I have so many things on my plate that I want to do.

    2. Re:Nahh by geminidomino · · Score: 2, Informative

      Game Master driven CRPGS. I know they have them already, but I'd want to do one well. Theoretically, you can get a better experience through a computer than Pencil and Paper. And with computer you can play with people who all aren't in the same physical location. This dream isn't big enough to pursue however. I have so many things on my plate that I want to do.

      You don't have to do it.

      http://www.rpgobjects.com/index.php?c=orpg

    3. Re:Nahh by negRo_slim · · Score: 1

      I spent thousands of hours over a decade and a half trying to code MMORPGS. Now that MMORPGS are out and boring, my ultimate dreams for video games is sorta deflated.

      I agree with you, I've often thought my enjoyment of my hours on EQ had more to do with my desire to have such a game then actual merit. But it occurs to me the potential for a truly engaging and wonderful MMORPG could still be realized as %99.99 of what is out there is all derived from the same basic formula.

      --
      On the Oregon Cost born and raised, On the beach is where I spent most of my days
    4. Re:Nahh by KDR_11k · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "before multiplayer"? Weren't both Space War and Pong multiplayer-only?

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    5. Re:Nahh by ciderVisor · · Score: 1

      Weren't both Space War and Pong multiplayer-only?

      Heh. Excellent point. I'd mod you up if I had any points.

      --
      Squirrel!
    6. Re:Nahh by Bat+Country · · Score: 1

      Not to burst your bubble, and that may be a helpful link for people, a virtual game table is not quite the same thing as a game master driven CRPG. It's not even technically a CRPG (although it may be what the GP meant). The difference is how much of the game is moderated by the machine and how much is mediated by hidden rules.

      The Natural Selection mod for HL comes closer to the point - it's a game where a bunch of people are playing roles which are directed by the actions of one or more users. True, NS is just an RTS with a FPS attached to it (acro overload), but it displays the difference - the game server mediates what the consequences of the players' actions are but the actual direction that gameplay takes and the shape of the environment is largely controlled by a second class of player - the game masters (in NS' case, the commanders.)

      I envision something like a realtime version of Neverwinter Nights' authoring tools with a toolbox metaphor which allows the game master to throw prefabs they'd prepared ahead of time (or gotten in a purchased module or downloaded from other GMs or pulled from the CRPG's library of builtins) at their friends.

      --
      The land shall stone them with the bread of his son.
    7. Re:Nahh by Bat+Country · · Score: 1

      I think that MMOs were a great idea at first but ran rampant in the direction that market forces took them at the expense of the more contemplative gameplay they found their roots in. By making them suitable for the mass market, they lost a little of the "technical" nuts and bolts and opportunities for participatory fiction which make RPGs entertaining for a good sized subset of their target audience.

      Smaller scale multiplayer tends to promote more important interpersonal relationships (in the game context, not necessarily socially) by promoting rivalries, intrigues and uneasy alliances. They allow this by giving more influence over the world's state to each individual player than is typically possible in these giant multiplayer environments. This also allows for more involvement with the world itself - engaging the medium as a sort of extra character. Man vs Environment is a hard scenario to pull off in the mass-market MMORPG genre.

      Getting back to the social aspect, however; even in Ultima Online (before attempts were made to increase its mass market appeal), a single player or small group of friends could change the shape of the world in fairly profound ways - walling off entire areas of a valley, teleporting monsters into regions they ordinarily were not found, building player cities, raiding and ultimately destroying those cities, creating lasting resource shortages, etc. This promoted a much more intense form of competition between the players than is typically found in larger systems such as WoW's Azeroth or the huge universe of EverQuest.

      The fact that seldom were there more than 400 people per server online at any given time exaggerated that effect by making each player's actions more significant in the larger world.

      I'd like to see somebody daring enough to create small-scale multiplayer (anywhere from 8 to 64 player) persistent worlds which are procedurally generated and distributed amongst the players with a centrally stored database. The worlds would have to be huge but extremely unsafe so that only by cooperation and consistent effort could the players extend safe zones. These safe zones would be extended either by clearing them of rogue AI (monsters, animals, computer players, whatever) or by literally building safe zones such as fortifications, cities, supply chains, etc.

      A game like that would remove the need for a single player to commit significantly more time than the others (the chief problem with game mastering) while allowing players to have real control over their world. Ideally, these games would be played by small groups of friends or social cliques (your dorm floor back in college) where dynamics outside the game world could produce interesting consequences within.

      I don't believe the article is too far off base in claiming that social aspects can be much more important than others - especially when you look outside the game world and realize that a lot of people play what their friends are playing, even if they're not multiplayer games. It seems logical to just try to harness this in a tighter social context than "everybody in the entire damned world" for those people who prefer a more insular and personal experience from their entertainment.

      --
      The land shall stone them with the bread of his son.
    8. Re:Nahh by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      Not to burst your bubble, and that may be a helpful link for people, a virtual game table is not quite the same thing as a game master driven CRPG. It's not even technically a CRPG (although it may be what the GP meant). The difference is how much of the game is moderated by the machine and how much is mediated by hidden rules.

      Not my bubble. I was just going with what he said about the advantages of tabletop, with the computer removing the need for a physical location. So I thought I'd throw out a plug (I don't develop it, just a fan way back when)

    9. Re:Nahh by Dan541 · · Score: 1

      Yes, but you needed friends back then. The Internet removes the need to leave the basement.

      --
      An SQL query goes to a bar, walks up to a table and asks, "Mind if I join you?"
    10. Re:Nahh by Bat+Country · · Score: 1

      It's a nifty project. I wish there was a larger community around it and RPG publishers were more forgiving of fan-published materials.

      --
      The land shall stone them with the bread of his son.
  5. For certain markets... by Myji+Humoz · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The findings might be true for certain markets, but huge hits recently such as Bioshock and Mass Effect show pretty clearly that a good plot, solid setting, and good graphics are key to a blockbuster game. The study is based on reviews made by gamers, and thus tends to have a skewed sampling population. Certain segments of the market enjoy variety and social games. Other parts enjoy plot driven RPGs or gorgeous and engaging FPS games. Without doing an economic or financial analysis, judging what factors correlate most strongly to success is a rather large leap for this study.

    --
    Signatures are the new names.
    1. Re:For certain markets... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bioshock? Plot? You must be joking. That game has no plot that didn't happen before the start of the game, and is then explained to you by disembodied voices. Show, don't tell. The actual events of the game consist of you running around on a killing spree, like all FPS games.

    2. Re:For certain markets... by blahplusplus · · Score: 1

      It also assumes that gamers know what actually is necessary for a games success. Much of what causes a game to be a success is many times NON OBVIOUS.

      A word like "Gameplay" is too deep and nuanced and changes from game to game, just like how do you capture the "Feel", control and sense of speed in a racing game?

      Or what about the fluid battle mechanics of god of war compared to other clunkier games?

      Truth is one study is not definitive and I'd trust hardcore gamers before I trust pointificating researchers on what makes a successful game, since the elite among the hardcore play types of games and have refined gaming tastes and are also into analysis of what makes fun, they attempt to pick apart games and can usually tell you in a review right away what's wrong and they always usually post the harshest most realistic scores for games. Instead of uninformed pablum that passes for the gamers without a gaming history going back into the NES era or even further back.

    3. Re:For certain markets... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No kidding.

      If I want to socialize, I do it in the real world. Ever try to shag an avatar? Especially knowing that most of the female avatars are guys, anyway.

      Maybe I'm just getting old, but what passes for research these days seems really weak. Maybe I just get so much of my info from "the Internets" now, that I have a skewed impression and there was always this much "crap" science, it just simply wasn't as readily available.

      Warhol was right, damn him.

    4. Re:For certain markets... by KDR_11k · · Score: 2, Insightful

      huge hits recently such as Bioshock and Mass Effect show pretty clearly that a good plot, solid setting, and good graphics are key to a blockbuster game.

      And Wii Fit shows quite the opposite...

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    5. Re:For certain markets... by Ihmhi · · Score: 1

      I don't think "good graphics" is all about how many lil' triangles you can cram into Krato's left nipple. It's more about having a consistent and interesting art style. I still think Beyond Good & Evil is one of the most beautiful games ever made, even though it was made on PS2 quite a while ago.

    6. Re:For certain markets... by TheKidWho · · Score: 1

      BG&E was also made for PC!

    7. Re:For certain markets... by icebraining · · Score: 1

      What about the Oddworld games? Abe's Oddyssey and Exoddus, at least, have great artwork (only possible thanks to being 2D), coupled together with good dark humor and nice puzzle-style gameplay.

    8. Re:For certain markets... by Creepy · · Score: 1

      I would have to agree - while I would call the model they describe (the Doom model/FPS, but I feel this extends to most online games as well) accurate for certain markets, it depends entirely on game, and even the social aspect depends on the game and platform. By marketshare, FPS's and MMORPGs do have the lion's share, but there are still huge markets for other games or

      For instance, if I were creating a Wii game (extend that to games like Guitar Hero or Rock Band for any platform), my priorities would be
      a) multiplayer with the other player in the room, not online
      b) gameplay - easy to learn, easy to play, emphasize fun over difficulty
      c) plot and graphics (probably none, and cartoony)

      Most people I know played the original guitar hero single player and later versions they usually play multiplayer. I personally never liked the game and am only going by people I know that play it.

      How about a 3rd person shooter like Tomb Raider or Resident Evil (not like Left 4 Dead which uses the FPS model)?
      a) single player gameplay
      b) puzzles/problem solving
      b) graphic
      c) plot

      actually, that one was tough to categorize, because all of the above are usually pretty important, but again, the plot is usually so inane I put it last.

      would those same priorities apply to Starcraft 2 or an RTS in general? Absolutely not -
      a) gameplay - easy to learn, easy to play, hard to master
      b tie) single player
      b tie) multiplayer (online)
      d) graphics
      e) plot (single player) - some people would put this #1 or #2, but mostly people don't care because it doesn't matter

      How about adventure games?
      a) plot (interchangeable with b, depending on game)
      b) puzzles/problem solving
      c) graphics/visuals
      social and gameplay are pretty much nonfactors, though some hybrid games do have gameplay factors (e.g. Dreamfall, Beyond Good & Evil).

    9. Re:For certain markets... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I also noted that variety was included. Now I only played a demo of Bioshock, but when I look at HL2 what really makes the game shine is not just the physics engine and the plot but the variety of missions. At one moment your popping zombies with a shotgun and the next your wiping out Combine with a massive crane. Assasin's Creed is one of those games that suffered from a lack of variety, although that didn't stop it from being a commercial success.

      Which proves that the formula for a game's success is as it always has been, Marketing.

    10. Re:For certain markets... by Ihmhi · · Score: 1

      And they royally fucked that up, what with no native gamepad support. Thank the stars for XPadder.

  6. Maybe true for the teeny-boppers by Totenglocke · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This may be true for the teeny-boppers who've probably never played a game with a real plot and great game play. Most modern console games have pretty similar graphics and tend to have the same lack of plot or original thought - so yes, I'd believe that being able to chat with friends would be "important" to them because it allows them to be distracted from how boring the game is.

    However, with older gamers, it is normally universal that plot and game play come before graphics and most of us couldn't give a rats ass if you can chat with your friends in-game. We already have a great way to chat with friends while playing if we need to - it's called a phone.

    --
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
    1. Re:Maybe true for the teeny-boppers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      WTF are you yapping about? A phone? Seriously??

    2. Re:Maybe true for the teeny-boppers by martas · · Score: 1

      what is this phone you speak of? does it have a character limit per message?

    3. Re:Maybe true for the teeny-boppers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      However, with older gamers, it is normally universal that plot and game play come before graphics and most of us couldn't give a rats ass if you can chat with your friends in-game.

      Um.. the article said the graphics were not important. So I think that means that the "teeny-boppers" (as you call them) do in fact agree with you on how important graphic are. So at best, your quote is redundant and at worse an off topic rant.

    4. Re:Maybe true for the teeny-boppers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This may be true for the teeny-boppers who've probably never played a game with a real plot and great game play.

      Indeed. When will we ever see another game with the stunning, spine-chilling plot twists of Pong and Asteroids?

    5. Re:Maybe true for the teeny-boppers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      However, with older gamers, it is normally universal that plot and game play come before graphics and most of us couldn't give a rats ass if you can chat with your friends in-game. We already have a great way to chat with friends while playing if we need to - it's called a phone.

      Now if only we had some friends to call...

    6. Re:Maybe true for the teeny-boppers by Hiro2k · · Score: 1

      I agree with everything you've

    7. Re:Maybe true for the teeny-boppers by AdmiralWeirdbeard · · Score: 1

      'social aspects' matter greatly to me insofar as i enjoy games w/ a local multiplayer component, if not the whole point of the game. I like a good rip through a beautifully rendered and well written fps campaign as much as the next guy, but wii sports and rockband make up at least 90% of my gaming hours.

      --
      Come read my stupid blagablog. Rants and Giggles
    8. Re:Maybe true for the teeny-boppers by NateE · · Score: 1

      VOIP being built-in to a fast paced game adds enormously to the experience. Many FPS have hardly any plot. There are too many types of games to say that plot comes before graphics. Lots of casual games also have no plot.

    9. Re:Maybe true for the teeny-boppers by Draek · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Older, but only sightly. Too old, and you may realize we already have a way to get a good plot, and they're called "books". No, all it matters to me is gameplay and yes, the "social aspect" you deride so much. Give me a fun game, and an easy way to find others who play it, and I'm all set.

      That's why my favorite RPG is Guild Wars, the plot may be an endless stream of cliches and the graphics may not be anywhere near as good as those of Mass Effect or the latest Final Fantasy, but the battle system is fun as hell and, being halfway between a "regular" RPG and a MMO, the social aspect is second to none.

      --
      No problem is insoluble in all conceivable circumstances.
    10. Re:Maybe true for the teeny-boppers by chonglibloodsport · · Score: 1

      I agree with the article. Plot is massively overrated. I find that the majority of games touted for "great plots" reek of frustrated author syndrome where game play takes a back seat to the writer's vision.

      I get far more enjoyment out of games that provide a large variety of game play mechanics, situations, re-playability and multi-player.

    11. Re:Maybe true for the teeny-boppers by Totenglocke · · Score: 1

      Except that in books, nothing ever changes. In a well written RPG, the outcome and the way things play out over the course of the game is affected by your choices.

      If you want to do something mind-numbingly repetitive and dull while talking to other people, I suggest either work or playing sports. With work you'll at least make money and with sports you'll at least get exercise.

      --
      "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
    12. Re:Maybe true for the teeny-boppers by Totenglocke · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Many FPS have hardly any plot.

      Hence why most real gamers totally despise FPS games. There's no thought, no plot, just your over-caffeinated twitch responses.

      --
      "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
    13. Re:Maybe true for the teeny-boppers by Razalhague · · Score: 1

      ...because there existed no games between Pong and Asteroids, and the current casual gaming trend.

    14. Re:Maybe true for the teeny-boppers by Draek · · Score: 1

      Except that in books, nothing ever changes. In a well written RPG, the outcome and the way things play out over the course of the game is affected by your choices.

      No more than in a Choose Your Own Adventure book, unless it's a roleplaying session with other humans (hence, 'social aspect').

      --
      No problem is insoluble in all conceivable circumstances.
    15. Re:Maybe true for the teeny-boppers by Totenglocke · · Score: 1

      Except choose your own adventure books break the illusion with "if you choose X, go to page Y". In an RPG, it's seamless. On an RPG that allows modding (which just about every RPG these days does) you can add in all sorts of sub-plots or expand on things you didn't feel were fleshed out enough. Try doing that with a book or a movie.

      --
      "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
    16. Re:Maybe true for the teeny-boppers by jandersen · · Score: 1

      I think perhaps you are not aware that the majority of gameplayers are, in fact, not chronic players. Playing computer games is no longer the reserve of the all-out nerd, it has long been mainstream, and that means it has to appeal to people who may play every day, but only for a relatively short time; the very same people who enjoy their soap operas and sports shows along with nattering with their friends. Ordinary people, in other words. And just like most people don't really want to read heavy and deep books, they don't care much for games that require full-body immersion in an alien universe.

      The fact that the results of this study surprises only goes to show that those who create the games are out of contact with their audience; it didn't surprise me at all, I have been saying for years that the gaming industry is way off the mark. The success of fairly weak games like The Sims and Wii* demonstrate that most want something simple and easy that looks and feel a bit like everyday life.

      As for older gamers - I think it depends on how much older; I grew up with Adventure, which I played on the university's old Cyber from time to time. It didn't have much in the way of game-play features, but I still think that kind of game is far superior to most modern games; the best contemporary game I know of is the graphically quite simple Crossfire. What makes it nice is that you can play and enjoy it without really knowing much about it, but you can also immerse yourself and become a super-expert; there is a lot of scope for learning and interaction.

    17. Re:Maybe true for the teeny-boppers by Kreigaffe · · Score: 1

      I.. good god my head asplode, please get off your high horse. Games don't need a plot. Tag is a game, chess is a game, ffs beer pong is a game, and there's no plot. Plot comes into games only when the game is trying to tell a story, which is really a fairly recent development but in no way necessary to make a good game.

      But I'm sure you're dismiss this as just another unwashed opinion from someone who's not a REAL gamer, elohel.

      --
      ... still waiting for this free-as-in-beer free beer I keep hearing about. :|
    18. Re:Maybe true for the teeny-boppers by Ragzouken · · Score: 1

      And what is a 'real' gamer?

    19. Re:Maybe true for the teeny-boppers by Ragzouken · · Score: 1

      Try interactive fiction.

    20. Re:Maybe true for the teeny-boppers by vivian · · Score: 1

      If there was something that bought those two great genres together, what would you call it? Asterpong? Pongeroids? I suspect its only the the naming difficulty that has held such a great game back all these years.

    21. Re:Maybe true for the teeny-boppers by malkavian · · Score: 1

      Definitely with you on the Guild Wars choice; I think it's one of the thing that manages to satisfy most of the people most of the time.. There's the story mode (which is the bit that has me awaiting the next release; graphics be damned, it's fun going through those stories!), which is like reading a book.. Then there's the jump in with everything already there for the PvP aspect.. You can group for the social aspect, or use 'heroes' and henchmen to solo (which I do a lot of the time), or a mix thereof..
      It's not 'perfect' by any means.. But it lets you mix and match for what you want at the time. Sociable or antisocial.. Follow the plot, or just jump in and hack and slash.. It doesn't force you to be anything, you just choose what you want from it at the time.

    22. Re:Maybe true for the teeny-boppers by maxume · · Score: 1

      So you are saying that I can't think to myself "Hmm, I wonder what would have happened had blah occurred instead of blag?", when I read a book?

      A little harder to share than user generated RPG content, but not really. And I'm not so sure that 95% of the RPG content is going to be worth playing out.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    23. Re:Maybe true for the teeny-boppers by tepples · · Score: 1

      On an RPG that allows modding (which just about every RPG these days does)

      Kingdom Hearts does not. Final Fantasy does not. Dragon Quest does not. In fact, as far as I know, most popular RPGs for consoles do not.

    24. Re:Maybe true for the teeny-boppers by Totenglocke · · Score: 1

      Tag and chess do not cost $60 a piece (nor are they recycled every year by a dozen companies and resold to the moronic masses for another $60 a piece) requiring $400 consoles to play. There's a big difference between "cheap and a brief diversion" and "expensive and totally pointless".

      Also, chess requires strategy and thought - FPS requires none of that.

      --
      "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
    25. Re:Maybe true for the teeny-boppers by Totenglocke · · Score: 1

      Yea, and the key word there was "consoles", the system that's not designed to allow modding.

      --
      "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
    26. Re:Maybe true for the teeny-boppers by Totenglocke · · Score: 1

      So, basically your argument is that because the average person is a moron, no one should make a product for intelligent people. Where would programmers be if those who write books on computers / programming followed that you suggest the gaming industry do? Where would society be if authors followed your same advice?

      If there are companies that want to churn out utter crap for the moronic masses to make a quick buck, go for it. However, don't try to drag down the companies that still cater to those with a fully functioning brain.

      --
      "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
    27. Re:Maybe true for the teeny-boppers by WinPimp2K · · Score: 1

      Well, a phone aka "telephone" may be thought of as a Ventrilo connection with only one other person in the channel with you. The connection quality is generally better than with Ventrilo or Teamspeak as it is accomplished through dedicated hardware that has been designed for maximum reliability within a 64kbps bandwidth.

      Of course, being a dedicated hardware solution does limit its flexibility somewhat. For example, the hardware handles analog - digital and digital - analog conversions automatically which limits you to your normal speaking rate for data transfer. There is no limit on how long you can continue o yap.

      --

      You either believe in rational thought or you don't
    28. Re:Maybe true for the teeny-boppers by Kreigaffe · · Score: 1

      So how about we throw out paintball or airsoft. Clearly, games. Except they're just a FPS. Minus the computer part.

      And I have no idea what FPS you're raging on that's recylced every year by a dozen companies and resold for 60 bucks a piece on a $400 console, because you're clearly thinking of the Madden franchise. Or, perhaps, the Final Fantasy series

      --
      ... still waiting for this free-as-in-beer free beer I keep hearing about. :|
    29. Re:Maybe true for the teeny-boppers by jandersen · · Score: 1

      Did I say anything that sounded like "one size fits all"? I was commenting on an article that stated that it was surprising that people didn't care about the impressive graphics etc - and I argue that this shouldn't surprise anybody.

      so perhaps everybody in the world is a moron - except you, no doubt - or maybe you are just a nerd who hasn't seen the outside for too long, who knows. Whatever it may be, real life is what it is, no matter what we feel about it; if game developers want to survive by selling to the real public, they have to know what those people do and don't like. If they don't care about profits, then they are free to do whatever they like, of course.

  7. Best Selling Game by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    So the best selling game should be IRC Hero?

    1. Re:Best Selling Game by Bat+Country · · Score: 1

      Ban Power ready!

      --
      The land shall stone them with the bread of his son.
  8. Networking? by fireball84513 · · Score: 1

    even more proof that games are becoming more of a social group than a way to escape the norm and waste time. wait, is there a difference?

    --
    "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
  9. Methodology is everything by graft · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Well, I suppose this is marginally interesting, but poor methodology really makes this paper mean very little for me. For example, check out this brilliant passage:

    These results did not reflect our expectations, as they put a lot more importance on gameplay and environment in relation to other categories than we had expected. We suspected the complexity of the categories was causing this,with some categories encompassing far more criteria than others, making them far more likely to be mentioned than others with relatively few criteria. In a rough attempt to overcome this, the count was divided by the number of criteria for each category.

    In other words: "We didn't like the result we got, so we massaged the data until we got something we liked, and called that our method."

    1. Re:Methodology is everything by Quothz · · Score: 5, Insightful

      In other words: "We didn't like the result we got, so we massaged the data until we got something we liked, and called that our method."

      You said just about all there is to be said. They changed their method to make the results match their hypothesis. They acknowledge poor methodology in their data collection, so even the original results are suspect. The only place this paper ought've been published is in a landfill. Beale and Bond should go back to 101-level courses, and the headline of this story should be "Don't Publish Research With Obvious Flaws".

    2. Re:Methodology is everything by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 0, Troll

      And what's wrong with that? This method is in widely accepted use in academia throughout the world. Many highly accredited people use the method with great success. You can criticize the people, man, but don't criticize the method.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    3. Re:Methodology is everything by Imrik · · Score: 1

      It is widely used, it is also a bad practice. It should therefore be criticized whenever possible.

    4. Re:Methodology is everything by noidentity · · Score: 1

      Heh, I read the quote you called "brilliant", expecting non-sarcasm, and thought the authors were saying that they got a result they didn't expect, and had previously lumped some categories together because they expected them to not matter much, but had now un-lumped them to be sure the result wasn't biased towards their expectation. I thought "yeah, they're being honest, and when they found an unexpected result, realized they were still biasing against it, so improved things in a way that had the side-effect of supporting the unexpected result even more" but I see it's the total opposite. Totally totally lame. It's almost like that sappy YouTube video where you read it forward and get one message, but if you read it in reverse, you get the "good" one. So here, if you do the opposite of what they say, you do have some good advice.

  10. Back in the 1980's.... by mikael · · Score: 3, Informative

    One of the first multiplayer games we played was 'grid' by Peter S. Langston - it came with a USENIX archive tape. The game itself was an ASCII rendering of 'grid war' in first person perspective, but it supported inter-player communication. Other mainframe multi-user-dungeon games were also popular as they also had the multi-player capability.

    --
    Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
  11. Plot... I will miss you by tetsukaze · · Score: 1

    I can really appreciate the technology that has evolved to make modern games what they are. It has changed the way we play games, but at a cost. I miss the old days of 70+ hours of a great story. You just can't do that any more. Good writing just doesn't pay off any more. Back in the days of lousy graphics and limited features, a story had to draw you in. Now there are so many other components that a good story isn't important. I am no exception. I used to tolerate a whole lot to get to the juicy ending, but now if the game doesn't hold me with other aspects, I end up ditching it. Likewise, if a game has quality visuals and novel game play, I won't care that the writing is crap. Oh the old day. Oh by the way, I also used to haul rocks to school in the snow uphill both ways.

    1. Re:Plot... I will miss you by bigstrat2003 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Games could always get away without having a decent plot, just as they can today, so I don't think much has changed there. I mean, you can't possibly say with a straight face that Doom, or Age of Empires, or Super Mario Bros had great plots, and those were all classic games.

      I also wouldn't say that there's a lack of plot in games today. Lots of games are still about telling a great story (RPGs, Heavy Rain, the Halo series, Bioshock) just as much as they are about fun gameplay. There are still both games with and without great plot, just as there were in years gone by.

      --
      "16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
    2. Re:Plot... I will miss you by tetsukaze · · Score: 2, Informative

      I agree that there have always been games that do focus on game play and leave out plot. I also agree that there are some very good games out there that do have amazing stories and writing. What I am seeing is a general trend away from those things. The best games will have everything, but the way I see it, games like Mass Effect and Bioshock are a dying breed. I loved the plots and characters in those games but I feel if the stories had been so so, they still would have been successful. I can't predict the future, but I think these games are on the way out.

    3. Re:Plot... I will miss you by American+Terrorist · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I never understood people who play games for the plot. I play games for entertaining gameplay. To me the very definition of a game is something almost entirely lacking in plot. Chess, checkers, cards games, monopoly, etc all have no plot.

      I played WoW for the arenas and always laughed to myself at the nerds who cared about the backstory of Archimonde and blah blah blah. The plot in these games is just a device to move the game forward. A boss that respawns every week and exists in infinitely many instances does not make for an interesting plot. When I want good stories, I read books.

    4. Re:Plot... I will miss you by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You really think Bioshock had a great plot? Wow. Just...wow!

    5. Re:Plot... I will miss you by gaspyy · · Score: 1

      To each his own.

      I don't have much time for playing games these days, but almost all of my favorite games had great stories: from Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis, Zork, Wing Commander Series to Syberia, Deus Ex and Freelancer.

      Playing the first Dune game (the one madde by Cryo in 1992) got me into reading the books.

    6. Re:Plot... I will miss you by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      The best game I've ever played is Planescape: Torment. You'd REALLY hate it! All you ever do is click the ground to move around and sometimes on some items. And there's text. Sooo much text and hardly any speech, beside that one dead dude saying "updated my journal lol" every once in a while. You can't talk to other people, you can't ever laugh at them for caring about the plot.

      Really, stay away from that one.

    7. Re:Plot... I will miss you by CarpetShark · · Score: 1

      I miss the old days of 70+ hours of a great story. You just can't do that any more.

      Zelda still does a pretty good job of story line.

    8. Re:Plot... I will miss you by Tridus · · Score: 1

      That's a funny statement, because arenas are pretty much the single most loathed feature in all of WoW, and are regularly blamed for every idiotic PvE balance mistake Blizzard makes. I always laugh at people who waste time in that lolesport instead of playing what the game was really built for.

      But then, different people play for different reasons. Nothing really new or interesting about that, except you don't seem to realize it. :P

      --
      -- "So they told me that using the download page to download something was not something they anticipated." - Bill Gates
    9. Re:Plot... I will miss you by American+Terrorist · · Score: 1

      I do realize it, but I reserve the right to mock them nevertheless. Oh and when I said arenas I meant battlegrounds. And when I say battlegrounds I mean not Alterac Valley. Warsong Gulch FTW!

    10. Re:Plot... I will miss you by jaraxle · · Score: 1

      I never understood people who play games for the plot. I play games for entertaining gameplay.

      And to a great many people, the plot is part of the "entertaining gameplay". While I know both Oblivion and Fallout 3 have been lambasted by some for various flaws in both story and the actual game, I find both very entertaining as do a great many others. I haven't come close to finishing Oblivion yet (partly because I don't have a lot of time) because I spend so much time when I am playing it going around doing side quests, exploring, and talking to NPCs to see what they have to say. I find the main plot, as well as all of the side stories, to be very entertaining. Same goes for Fallout 3.

      Go back a number of years to the old TSR Gold Box RPG games. Simplistic game play for the most part, but I ate them up and probably played every single one that was released (oh to have the free time I used to have as a youngster). They were fun because of the story they told (and it was really neat reading the novels they corresponded to after). Hell, I currently play EQ2 not because it's perhaps the best MMO out there, but because I find the storylines to be quite entertaining (and the game community seems to be much more socially mature than other MMOs out there).

      You may not understand people who play games for the plot, but to many people it's a way of "living a book" so to speak. Don't rag on something because you fail to understand it.

      ~jaraxle

    11. Re:Plot... I will miss you by mikael · · Score: 1

      Back in the days of lousy graphics and limited features, a story had to draw you in. Now there are so many other components that a good story isn't important.

      At the time these games were written, they used what the state-of-the-art in graphics and sound technology was. 256 color 320x200 VGA color graphics mode was the "big thing" around the late 1980's/early 1990's for desktop PC's. Having a sampled sound or Adlib sound drivers was also a big deal (Professional Golf "RealSound"). Even having a GUI style menu system at the top of the screen with save/load game was a major innovation.

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
    12. Re:Plot... I will miss you by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "My way of pretending to be a computerized elf is BETTER than your way of pretending to be a computerized elf."

      Nothing more hilarious than nerd snobbery.

    13. Re:Plot... I will miss you by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The plot in these games is just a device to move the game forward.

      Well...yeah. That's what plot does.

    14. Re:Plot... I will miss you by DarthLogic · · Score: 1

      I never understood people who are so mentally robotic that they can't enjoy an immersive story experience.

      You sound like the kind of person who could walk into a holodeck and say, "God this is lame. Where's tetris?"

    15. Re:Plot... I will miss you by Bat+Country · · Score: 1

      ...and a new character which gets added to the plot takes about 8 hours of spriting work even in games with graphics as complicated as Wasteland or The Bard's Tale.

      Although the technology of the time was state of the art, it was frankly simpler to produce content for than what is the state of the art today (of course composing sound effects for FM sound chips was quite a bit harder than recording somebody banging a watermelon in a car door.)

      --
      The land shall stone them with the bread of his son.
    16. Re:Plot... I will miss you by westlake · · Score: 1
      Chess, checkers, cards games, monopoly, etc all have no plot.

      But a game of chess or poker or Monopoly will have an evolving narrative - defined by the personalities and actions of the players.

    17. Re:Plot... I will miss you by Taulin · · Score: 1

      What about an interactive story type game like Urban Legions or KoL?

    18. Re:Plot... I will miss you by trdrstv · · Score: 1

      I never understood people who play games for the plot. I play games for entertaining gameplay. To me the very definition of a game is something almost entirely lacking in plot. Chess, checkers, cards games, monopoly, etc all have no plot.

      The irony is many games claim they play it for the plot, but then cite games like Bioshock, Resident Evil or Metal Gear Solid. As you stated these games have more "plot devices" than anything else. Just like a Rodney Dangerfield movie, the "plot" serves little purpose than moving to the next gag or 'set peice'.

  12. Re:Captain Obvious by BronsCon · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Agreed on points one and three.

    --
    APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
  13. how to you measure such things? by johncandale · · Score: 2, Interesting
    From TFA; "We have started to address this by undertaking a grounded theoretical analysis of reviews garnered from games, both good and bad, to distil from these common features that characterize good and bad games. A good game is cohesive, varied, has good user interaction and offers some form of social interaction"

    Look there are good movies with car chases, a rouge cop and one liners, and there are bad movies with such things. Any kind of list of 'qualities' is useless because it's not what it has it's /how it has them/. I think these researchers time would be better spent dusting books at the library of congress personally. I'm sure you could study a selection of successful literature, come up with a list of "whats most important in a work" and not only realize it doesn't apply to 90% of the masterpieces out there but also is completely useless in predicting future successes. Honestly this is just a few steps better then voodoo predictions.

    1. Re:how to you measure such things? by Orne · · Score: 1

      Here's a reference to "the 36 plots" that are common to almost every drama ever written, translated to the context of paper-based RPGs.

      You are exactly right, in that is is how you use the plot device, not what the plot device is... which should be more apparent given how small the set of plot devices really is.

    2. Re:how to you measure such things? by westlake · · Score: 1

      We have started to address this by undertaking a grounded theoretical analysis of reviews garnered from games, both good and bad, to distil from these common features that characterize good and bad games

      Is there a critic whose game reviews could stand up to the best work being done in film and video?

      Perspective is important as well.

      Any serious critic knows he will remembered most for the day he panned the film that went on to became a legend.

      The film that went on to win every major award the industry had to offer - or more tellingly was denied the recognition it deserved.

      The film students will be studying for generations to come.

      You need to be asking not only whether the reviews were good or bad but how well they have stood up over time.

  14. No shit. by WSOGMM · · Score: 1

    What the hell do you think kept me playing WoW for all those years? Finding Old Blanchey's blanket?

  15. Conclusion by pi4 · · Score: 5, Funny

    The best selling video game of 2009 is............... facebook?

    1. Re:Conclusion by wakingrufus · · Score: 2, Insightful

      ^ Onion article in the making.

    2. Re:Conclusion by Orion+Blastar · · Score: 1

      Yeah I had to keep adding in random strangers as friends to get benefits in the Facebook games like Farmville, Knighthood, Battlestations, Mafia, etc before I decided to quit doing that. Then I found out Facebook doesn't like it when you drop a large group of your 'friends' and ban you for it. We used to be able to add in many friends, add them in the games, and then drop them and they'd still be in the games.

      Thing is if people only added in their "real friends" to these Facebook games they'd only have like 16 friends playing with them and not the required 250 or whatever it is to get the bonuses enough to matter. There are also Facebook groups for "mass add" for the various games so random strangers can "mass add" other random strangers by bulk email addresses to get the hundreds of "friends" required for the Facebook video games.

      But after creating a new account I decided to stop playing those Facebook games. Turns out they collect email addresses and other info and sell it like any other spammer, plus they assault you with advertising and spam.

      It does not make sense to have video games on a social networking site, because it interferes with social networking and requires one to "micromanage" their virtual world in each game.

      --
      Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
    3. Re:Conclusion by some_guy_88 · · Score: 1

      A disturbingly large number of my friends play a facebook game called FarmVille. As far as good games go its an absolute shocker but give people high score lists with their friends on it and tacked on features like gift giving and you've got a hit on your hands.

    4. Re:Conclusion by Moxied · · Score: 1

      A lot of the Facebook games completely lack a social aspect though. They are just mindless button mashing, mixed up with some crime.

  16. Quake, anyone? by HisMother · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Quake had no plot, at least not one that made any sense or was original in any way. It was the multiplayer which made it such an incredibly successful phenomenon. Folks these days might forget what the old days before the Intertubes were really like; being able to blow your friends up for the first time was just awesome.

    --
    Cantankerous old coot since 1957.
    1. Re:Quake, anyone? by Deltaspectre · · Score: 1

      So are you saying that perhaps innovation could top plot? For something like quake, I'm not sure I could base my love for it on the social aspects.

      --
      My UID is prime... is yours?
    2. Re:Quake, anyone? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Quake had no plot

      Yes, but Quake also had one of (if not the) most advanced graphics engines of its day.
      Which is part of what the article is about (see TFTitle).

    3. Re:Quake, anyone? by American+Terrorist · · Score: 1

      I base my love for FPSs on the adrenaline rush aspects. AI can't provide that rush. Only when I know I'm playing against other people do I find it interesting.

    4. Re:Quake, anyone? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For me, it was the real 3D that made Quake awesome. No sprite-based graphics anywhere. No being limited to only looking up or down by about 15 degrees because more would break the graphics engine. You could just step up to an edge and look *down*!

      In fact, looking up and down worked so well that it was the game that made people switch to the now almost universal mouse + keyboard control scheme for FPS games. The ease of looking around made everything so much more immersive.

    5. Re:Quake, anyone? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is because Quake(et al.) AI sucks. For one thing it sucks at playing. 100% accuracy at higher levels is the AI equivalent of giving a 13yo kid a better mouse monitor PC combination. Winning will be hard, but not challenging in the least. More like, boring. I play Q3A with my Intel Graphics and a touch-pad in a 13" laptop. I still win. You AI or RI sucks even if you get all the head-shots and you are boring because having to work around a fun game to kill you is boring.
      If you made an AI that could beat me with less accuracy and more ping than I have I would buy your bot for $2000+. That would be challenging.
      At the very least, bot writers should write bots that use the same techniques as humans. Rocket-jumps, strafe-jumps, hopping, rocket-launching and defenses for each of these, even if they don't actually have a clue.

    6. Re:Quake, anyone? by sorak · · Score: 1

      Quake had no plot, at least not one that made any sense or was original in any way. It was the multiplayer which made it such an incredibly successful phenomenon. Folks these days might forget what the old days before the Intertubes were really like; being able to blow your friends up for the first time was just awesome.

      Sure quake had a plot. B.J. Blaskowitz had just escaped Nazi Germany, killed all the demons in hell, lost his pet bunny, and then ended up in space.

    7. Re:Quake, anyone? by JasterBobaMereel · · Score: 1

      Quake had :

      Good enough graphics (Not the best but good enough)

      Great gameplay, mainly because the engine did not get in the way (you did not have to jump up steps) there were no artificial restrictions due to engine limitations

      Extensibility, there were new levels available, and complete mods, this made it last beyond the initial first completion ...

      Multiplayer, simply added more interest, you could learn the bots, but cannot learn all the possible opponents ....

      --
      Puteulanus fenestra mortis
    8. Re:Quake, anyone? by twosmokes · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Perhaps my memory is failing me, but what had better graphics than Quake when it was released?

    9. Re:Quake, anyone? by icebraining · · Score: 1

      So we need game AI that can pass Turing's test? I see much team killing in that horizon...

    10. Re:Quake, anyone? by JasterBobaMereel · · Score: 1

      The proverbially never mind the gameplay look at the amazing graphics uber game Myst for one ...

      --
      Puteulanus fenestra mortis
  17. In practice, theory and practice are different... by xepel · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I feel like in an ideal world, this could certainly be correct. Everyone likes a fun, social game, right?

    Except this isn't always the case.

    As seen in another recent posting, you tend to get pushed to the 'indie' section of gaming if you don't have the visuals that people want. People like looking at pretty screen-candy, and game makers know to indulge people in this. You can certainly have good games without amazing visuals, but they won't ever be mainstream.

    Most people love their graphics, even if they'll then claim 'gameplay' is important on some survey.

  18. An interesting but not thorough study by nifboy · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I'd like to see a more thorough investigation with this method. The paper says they used 33 reviews from Gamespot UK to collect the data, and while I don't disagree with its findings (Gotta have good controls, bad plot doesn't matter), I wouldn't turn Table 5 (categories by importance) into a Game Design Bible. Then again, the paper does say "This paper is primarily intended to inspire further work in the field."

  19. don't forget by bigmaddog · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Video games are now mainstream, just another Hollywood, and what we can learn from movies and apply to our preferred entertainment is that unmitigated mediocrity is no obstacle to making money. How many cookie cutter romantic comedies come out each year? There's no innovation, no surprises, but they keep making them so the money's coming from somewhere. OMG, he travels through time, but he still loves her and she loves him back? Shit bitch, no way! How about generic action movies? Three Transporters, Two Cranked's and Death Race, and I'm sure they're making Death Race 2 right now... in case we forget Jason Statham is awesome. The examples go on. If these movies are making money somehow that means there's enough people out there who are buying, for who those movies offer enough. And yay, look out, the same is true for games. We're measuring different things here, and we even have a study for some reason, but it's no surprise that the average person's demands are for something that's "good enough" in a few basic areas.

    --

    Even as you read this, your pants are strangling your loins! Aaa!

  20. Price and social aspects? by Korbeau · · Score: 1

    So being able to call someone else Noob in a shitty Flash game is fun! Yay!

  21. WoW, No Shit? by Thedeviluno · · Score: 0, Troll

    This study is akin to throwing your poop at a wall and sifting through it, in an attempt to remember what you had for dinner.

    1. Re:WoW, No Shit? by Cheesetrap · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      "Corn?? When the hell did we have corn?? ... Bugger, out of paper towels!"

    2. Re:WoW, No Shit? by Thedeviluno · · Score: 1

      The last time we had corn was four or five years ago when our metaphorical colon was filled up with Slashdot gaming goodness. Slashdot is now infected with a tapeworm of gaming news.

  22. Games list? MUD's. by Globally+Mobile · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Nowhere in the paper could I find the various games they used in this study. Would be a nice addition. As someone said above, Multi-User Dungeons (MUD's) back in the late 80's/early 90's were highly addictive, and I would say that the social interaction definitely had a large part in the 'flow', and enjoyment. Many of us would just stay connected to the world, even when not at play, idle, and able to chat with the people we befriended within. The clan or gang structure, also a social aspect, also made for more fun. Interesting to see where price fell into this as well. It does make sense, social aspects and variety being the heaviest factors, seeing as MUD's, still based upon text, are to this day played. Also lok at how wildly popular MMORPG's are. Good job on the first draft there.

  23. idle gossip by mindbrane · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The PBS special, titled "The Brain's Big Bang", suggested gossip accounts for 2/3 of our speech activity. The episode went on to offer the now widely touted conjecture that social networking may have been one of the prime movers behind development of our comparatively big brains. Idle conjecture can take it to a simpler, more fundamental level. Apoptosis or programmed cell death is thought to be initiated by lack of inter cellular communication. Cells programme themselves to die when they no longer receive communications requiring them to live. It's easy to extrapolate from those findings to an individual's need to socially interact.

    --
    ideopath @ play
    1. Re:idle gossip by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      It's easy to extrapolate from those findings to an individual's need to socially interact.

      It's also easy to bludgeon people over the back of the head, drag them back to your house, and then eat them alive, but that doesn't mean you should do so. See also this.

    2. Re:idle gossip by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cells also need energy to function, using the same extrapolation I should be able to shoot lightning from my fingertips.

    3. Re:idle gossip by mike2R · · Score: 1

      Cells programme themselves to die when they no longer receive communications requiring them to live. It's easy to extrapolate from those findings to an individual's need to socially interact.

      Er no, really really no.

      You can't infer any such thing between two such radically different systems. And since there are plenty of multi-cellular organisms which are completely solitary, it is trivial to completely disprove the idea.

      --
      This sig all sigs devours
    4. Re:idle gossip by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      Shit... I shouldn't do that? I'll... uhhh... be back. Just gotta go run some errands...

    5. Re:idle gossip by Hatta · · Score: 1

      If that were true, gossips would be smarter than everyone else. Experience has shown the opposite to be true. I'd hypothesize that gossips have little internal life going on, and need the external stimulation to keep those synapses strong. People with a lot going on up there don't feel the need to fill up that empty space with meaningless verbal nonsense. Because it's not empty for them, it's filled with thought.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    6. Re:idle gossip by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The PBS special, titled "The Brain's Big Bang", suggested gossip accounts for 2/3 of our speech activity. The episode went on to offer the now widely touted conjecture that social networking may have been one of the prime movers behind development of our comparatively big brains. Idle conjecture can take it to a simpler, more fundamental level. Apoptosis or programmed cell death is thought to be initiated by lack of inter cellular communication. Cells programme themselves to die when they no longer receive communications requiring them to live. It's easy to extrapolate from those findings to an individual's need to socially interact.

      That's totally true. Like this guy I work with, he's legally blind and has no social skills or hair, so no one talks to him. And he totally walks around like some kind of zombie. And yesterday, I was in the break room eating a package of Red Vines that I got from the vending machine (75 cents--way too expensive, but they're really good and fat free) and that guy came in and scuttled into the men's room like some kind of vampire or something. I only say that because I think he's photosensitive, or maybe agoraphobic, like he's afraid of being outside in the sun. Anyway, he came out a few minutes later and went back to work. But when I got up to pee, he'd stunk up the bathroom like he'd just eaten a plate of beans and beef, and it was really gross, because of this dribble of liquid shit down the inside of the lid. I told, like, everybody.

      I also hear he's not getting along well with his wife, which is easy to understand, but that's really none of my business.

  24. IN many FPS servers and MMO games by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    people complain bugs and cheats. Yet according to this research paper, we should not be worry about bugs/ cheats as they are not considered an important factor.

    The thing is people will leave (Rage quit) and will not paying any money to a game when it is maintained poorly. That is why in many places, "myg0ts" are banned on sight even though they provide a hospitality to a game community. Many admins still want to keep myg0ts out from their game even though they will provide a thoughtful discussion.

    1. Re:IN many FPS servers and MMO games by Cheesetrap · · Score: 1

      people complain bugs and cheats. Yet according to this research paper, we should not be worry about bugs/ cheats as they are not considered an important factor.

      From TFA, it looks as if the study is conducted as a meta-analysis of game reviews, which are often conducted in a very short space of time, so the likelihood of picking up on bugs or experiencing the effects of cheats is undoubtedly much lower than a 'real' player would face. This is especially so in the case of games where the major bugs/hacks aren't discovered or widely exploited until AFTER the game has been reviewed, grown a large membership, etc. I have been involved in several MMORPGs where the in-game economy has been exploited (through newly-discovered bugs) in a matter of weeks or even days, to the point of uselessness, a year or more after the games inception. In some of these, the bugs were known and being abused for long periods of time by people who actually made real money off the game, they just kept it to themselves for as long as they could, but as soon as a noob discovered it or it was leaked, it was a free-for-all. Incidentally, one of the most popular of these had dodgy graphics even when it was first released, but boasts hundreds of thousands of fanatical players.. Despite all the bugs and garbage you have to put up with, there's a great community around most MMORPGs.

      Maybe since everyone has to deal with the same shitty glitches it helps bring them together? lol.

  25. just marketing by Odinlake · · Score: 1

    Just like the movie industry and so many other: Most of the target consumers will buy whatever you tell them they should buy as long as you have a well known logo, enough money for advertising and don't screw up too badly with cultural context.

  26. Depth by sqrt(2) · · Score: 1

    I've spent hours and hours playing Hearts of Iron 2. Can't play HoI3 because the graphics engine is too bloated and won't run on my laptop. I like the depth they added, but in this case increasing graphical quality actually makes the game unplayable. And I'm not alone, a lot of people complained about the system reqs.

    --
    If you build it, nerds will come. Soylentnews.org
  27. So in other words... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So in other words, you are telling me that people do not like to do the same thing again and again in isolation? I love it when people make entire reports out of something that is common sense to everyone else.

    First of all, you need to have the game constantly change. If it does not, people get bored. There are two ways to switch the game up. You can either (a.) spend time and money making a game that has many different ways to play it or (b.) add other players. When you add other players, even if you do not let them communicate, you are adding variety. Sometimes you are playing against good people, sometimes not. People act in unpredictable ways making it fun for much longer.

    How often do you play Call of Duty 4 (or 5) in single player mode? Halo?

    Now I will go back to my exciting game of breakout.

    1. Re:So in other words... by Orion+Blastar · · Score: 1

      Yeah shoot 'em up games get boring after a while. Like you have the Nazi Zombie add on via DLC, and you spend over an hour killing Nazi Zombies. So what is the point, you just keep killing the Nazi Zombies and they keep throwing more at you. No thing to get around, no variation, no victims to try and save, no pause in the Nazi Zombies regenerating so you get to move out of the sniper spot to find a new one and advance on the Nazi Zombie castle or whatever.

      --
      Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
  28. One word missing by war4peace · · Score: 1

    Now let me rephrase what the article says: "plot and graphics are not critical to the success of SOME video games". There. I added one word and it starts to make a lot more sense.
    There are games and games, and also there are genres and genres. One study can't get an universal conclusion for ALL games (some tried but abandoned all hope after repeatedly getting 42 as the answer).
    Now I didn't conduct any study, but as a personal opinion, I think that:
    - For pure FPS games like Quake, Unreal Tournament, Counterstrike, what matters is the "boom" experience. throw in countless killing methods and some big ass guns and you're through.
    - For Single Player RPGs, whether they feature First Person, Third Person or isometric views, it's the background/story/immersion level that counts.
    - For browser-based MMOs, their success heavily depends on speed. Any such game where it takes 5 seconds to get from one page/view to the next one is doomed.
    - Client/Server MMOs are wanted if they fit YOU, the gamer. There is no specific gold-paved road to success here. Maybe, maybe it's the amount of metagaming available.
    ...and so on. There are lots of categories, and any study trying to get all under one umbrella will yield 42 as the ultimate answer :)
    To conclude: Plot and graphics ARE critical to a game's success if it doesn't excel in other categories (see Assassin's Creed, Fallout 3, The Witcher); but again, people won't give a shit about plot and graphics sometimes (see Earthworm Jim 2, Worms, OGame.org, Counterstrike).

    --
    ...gis sdrawkcab (usually not responding to ACs; don't bother posting as AC)
  29. begging to differ by Johann+Lau · · Score: 1

    At least for me, it always was gameplay -> graphics/sound -> plot. Unless the plot is really, *really* good.

    Maybe the question the article really should be asking is: "Why are so many people buying and playing games without when they could just as well watch a movie or chew bubble gum, and how can gamers be protected from the resulting degradation of their environment and aspirations?" ^^

    1. Re:begging to differ by mikael · · Score: 1

      There was Myst. This game didn't really have a plot, but did have beautifully rendered scenes along with background music. Eventually it was turned into a 3D first person perpective game, but which didn't get so good reviews

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
  30. Incomplete study by Aggrav8d · · Score: 1

    If the social component exists (and in equal measure) in many games, what is the next most important feature?
    If the social component does not exist in many games, what is the most important feature?
    Can you still call it a game if you remove all the of the graphics and/or plot?

  31. Poor terminology by S3D · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Authors of TFA defined "Variety" as "non-linearity, choice, dynamic combat, varied AI, emergent tactic". That is what's usually called "Gameplay". What they are calling "Gameplay" - "Engaging, fair, balanced, innovative..." is mostly a pile of marketspeak.

  32. DOS based games by Orion+Blastar · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I got old MS-DOS formatted floppy disks that have my old DOS games on it. I am finding new use with them via DOSBox.

    Modern games, mostly Windows based DirectX memory eating and bloated but full of 3D graphics and surround sound audio aren't as good to play as the old DOS games. The old DOS games had a limited memory system and most were written in assembly or C and had to fit in under 12M of RAM using XMS or EMS etc RAM that extended over the 640K of DOS. They didn't have gigabyte hard drives back then and had to fit games on 120M hard drives or lower. They only had 640x480 VGA graphics and Sound Blaster 16 Pro audio.

    How many remember Syndicate, XCOM, Dune II, Master of Orion 1 and 2, Master of Magic, Bard's Tale (EGA graphics and no sound card support but the Bard's Tale Construction set fixed that with VGA and Sound Blaster support), and other classic DOS games?

    I heard a rumor that the classic DOS games are coming back via online services for $5 each because modern games don't have that enjoyability that the old 1990's DOS games had, plus people are learning how to run old games via DOSBOX or emulators that run DOS operating systems. The online services allows a DOSBox type DOS emulator/environment to run the DOS video game in it.

    Almost every gaming company is trying to get the best graphics and sound effects, and it seems like they followed the Doom first person shooter model too closely with variations and modifications to it and forgot to make it entertaining and mean something via those social aspects of it. Not just chatting with other players, but the social aspects of going up against a computer controlled AI opponent(s). One of the few modern games that does that is Civilization IV, but it is basically the same game since Civilization II (or the original Civilization for DOS and the SNES) with more graphics and sounds added to it with movies and animation and then some bonus features but still plays the same as the original pretty much. Send settlers to build cities, take your civilization from the stone age to modern times without an enemy civilization taking yours out and develop technology for stronger military units and improvements to cities and world wonders. But in order to bring it to video game console units they had to dumb it down to Civilization Revolutions.

    People want a game that is challenging, but they can set the level of difficulty. Sometimes the turns based game is better than the first person shooter realtime game that eats up lots of RAM and hard drive space for all of the animation and sound. Think of Tetris and other innovative games that did something different from all of the rest, and didn't need the animation graphics and sound effects to win over gamers. Just have an easy to use interface that doesn't require a user manual to be read in order to play it. Some of the best video games the player just clicked the start button and then just joined in the game learning as they went along. Which is what saved games are for, if you mess up, load a saved game before you messed up so you can avoid it.

    --
    Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
    1. Re:DOS based games by Xin+Jing · · Score: 1

      I think id re-releasing 'classic' versions of their early games for the iPhone/iTouch like Wolf3d and Classic Doom and Valve's Steam distribution of old games like Hexen and re-imaginings like The Secret of Monkey Island, and even with Wii and the virtual console are great examples of the past coming full circle to the present. Where before a game property would languish in a company's vault for years awaiting some new market, those that aren't bound by convoluted legal constraints (owned completely by their original company or a company that acquired their back library) are seeing new life and in some cases, polishing and optimizing of the code. In some rare instances, old games like Bethesda's 1996 Daggerfall are released for free http://www.elderscrolls.com/downloads/downloads_games.htm.

    2. Re:DOS based games by omglolbah · · Score: 1

      You can buy Commander Keen on Steam now *grins*

      Ah the joy of the old games. I would love to play Dune II again.. even with the horrible controls compared to modern RTS games.. (only select one unit at a time for instance)

    3. Re:DOS based games by Gorath99 · · Score: 1

      But in order to bring it to video game console units they had to dumb it down to Civilization Revolutions.

      Interesting that you should say that. I like Revolutions (DS) precisely because it reminds me of Civ II. (Still the best one in my book. Though Call to Power also has a strong claim to that title.) III and IV added a lot of features, but I find that most of those detract from the core gameplay. Revolutions DS feels like it took Civ II, added the best elements of III and IV (cultural influence and great persons), and ran with it.

      Sorry for all the parentheses. Hope you like LISP. ;-)

    4. Re:DOS based games by mikael · · Score: 1

      It's still possible to buy brand new Atari 2600 console systems from places like Amazon. Something to think about that some games are over 40 years old now and players still want to play them.

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
    5. Re:DOS based games by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I want the fun of the game, not the hassle of the actual console. I'm too old for those things :-p

    6. Re:DOS based games by mujadaddy · · Score: 1

      My kingdom for MOO2:2:The Good Multiplayer Coding

      --
      Populus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur...
      "Force shits upon Reason's back." - Poor Richard's Almanac
  33. Re:Captain Obvious by Cheesetrap · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Now me, I AM a racist and I freely admit that. I frequently state my dislike of people due to their race (ie. blacks, Mexicans, Chinese, Indians, English and Australians) because I deem them to be low-class, unintelligent, unhygienic, sub-humans who should be wiped from the face of the planet.

    Only those groups? Why not go all the way? :)

  34. Define success. by feepness · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Is McDonald's the most successful restaurant?

    Perhaps fiscally.

    But not in my book.

    1. Re:Define success. by Rude+Turnip · · Score: 1

      McDonalds is a marketing and logistics company that sells franchise licenses.

    2. Re:Define success. by cbraescu1 · · Score: 1

      McDonald's is actually *losing* money every year on their restaurant business. However, they are more than making it up from their real-estate business. Basically in order to get a restaurant franchise from McDonald's the franchisee has to sign the location lease with McDonald's - and THAT'S where the real gold is coming from.

      So, to answer your original question: no, McDonald's is not a successful restaurant, not at all. They kept losing money on restaurants in the last 30 years. That would hardly count as a success, isn't it?

      --
      Catalin Braescu
      Ofaly.com
    3. Re:Define success. by Taulin · · Score: 1

      Not sure where you got that information from. Their income statements show increase gross profit for the last years. Did you see something that broke down the income somehow to prove it was in franchise leasing that makes a majority of their profit? One of McDonald's key success points is they don't require trained highly-educated staff.

  35. Let's Play "Spot the Friendless Dude" by Petersko · · Score: 3, Funny

    "Bull, as far as I am concerned:
    1) Plot
    2) Price
    3) Graphics
    ... 374) Social"


    Just give us a heads up if you intend to buy a van and a whole bunch of fertilizer.

    1. Re:Let's Play "Spot the Friendless Dude" by MikeBabcock · · Score: 1

      1) Controls (think of the evil that was controlling Lara Croft)
      2) Story
      3) Sound
      4) Videography (not just graphics) ...

      Audio is at least as important to me as graphics, if not more so. Good sound effects, good music, not repetitive, not irritating.

      For some personal entertainment for those interested, go read up on the efforts made on harmonizing bullet sound effects in the PS2 shooter Black.

      Personally, social games aren't that fun with a few exceptions -- late editions of Mario Party made good party games, but otherwise stuff like co-op is kinda stupid usually, and annoying when playing with people of different skill levels.

      --
      - Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
  36. Re:Captain Obvious by bertoelcon · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    I agree on point 4, my mom is a slut really is a slut.

    --
    Anything can be found funny, from a certain point of view.
  37. Re:Captain Obvious by darth+dickinson · · Score: 1

    Holy $DIETY. That site made my brain bleed.

  38. Re:Captain Obvious by Cheesetrap · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    If you disagree on point two, please tell us what color you think they are if not black. Also explain why point one is acceptable to you and point two is not, without contradicting yourself. Thanks.

    Okay, a few points [note: I'm not any of the ACs here, I'm a Pseudonymous Coward instead ;)].

    Firstly, I have heard the word 'nigger' used to refer to white/brown/black/yellow/blue people (yeah, those smurfs on welfare!).

    nigga, niggah etc. al.(noun)1.describes an ignorant, uneducated, foolish individual regardless of race, color, religion, sexual orientation, etc.
    2. endearing term between two or more individual to describe a friendship or bond.
    1. Shut up, you nigger
    2. Chris, you my nigga.
    - Urban Dictionary (definition #4)

    Secondly, most people who call themselves 'black' are brown. Yes, BROWN. As in, what you get if you use the HTML color code 'brown' (produces #802A2A). I have met many brown people but only several people who were truly black - and they were Sudanese, not 'African-American' - which is also a BS term ("Oh, you have dual citizenship? May I see your passport?") - but I'll stop that rant right there.

    Third, his statement was posed in the form of "A is B", and seemingly you took it upon yourself to extrapolate "All B's are A" from it, which is a logical fallacy. I would personally discount his implication that "All A's are B", but your objection appears to reject the notion that "Some B's are A", which is most definitely a true assertion which makes your outright rejection obviously incorrect.

    Finally, what the frack does this have to do with online gaming? If I knew there were a bunch of brown-o-phobes in a particular server, I would join up with a decidedly over-tanned avatar just to laugh at their reactions when they get pwned by a pseudonigger. Idiots with ridiculous bigotries are fun to abuse :)

  39. Online Gaming by leadfoot · · Score: 1

    From the linked article, "Ever since the introduction of online gaming 10 years ago with the Dreamcast (Yes, I still love it) it has become a staple of many games on consoles, and PCs."

    wait, what?

    --
    "We're gonna need a bigger boat"
  40. of course that's what they would say by DragonTHC · · Score: 1

    if you put a bunch of people in a room together and ask them to play a game, that's called a lan party.

    If there's no multiplay aka (social aspects) then it would be pretty boring pretty quick.

    Games were always plot and gameplay driven. Then the japanese started making random gameplay simulators and the graphics were a toddler feast and people who had no attention span anyway started playing them and thought they were fun because those people lacked the higher brain function to realize that performing a mundane task over and over with catchy music is still a waste of time.

    Then the Internet allowed netplay. That was the social aspect of the game. Geeks and well, geeks played for hours a night.

    When technology started catching up and Carmack made games into something badass, more people wanted to play. When G4 started up, mainstream started catching on and that's when the corporate fat cats decided to exploit it. Now for developers, games are just like movies are for actors. It's like Favreau said to Affleck: First you make the money picture, then you make the art picture. Well now it's the same for games. Only, the games that are art are a bit lacking these days. For me, 90% of a game is plot.

    --
    They're using their grammar skills there.
  41. Breaking news at 11? by __aaaojf4823 · · Score: 1

    Gameplay and multiplayer features are on my top list, ever. Followed by re-playability and the existence of modding tools and patches to enhance the experience with the game. The plot and the elements that makes you re-play the game countless times differ from genre to genre, but all of them share at least one thing in common: good gameplay. Baldurs Gate, Diablo, Age of Empires, Starcraft, Warcraft, Half life, Counter-Strike, Quake, Unreal Tournament, Chronno Trigger, Final Fantasy, and the list goes on...

  42. Who cares about a neurotypical average HERE? by macraig · · Score: 1

    This conclusions of this study don't apply to me at all: I'm not human, at least not precisely the same variety of Homo sp. that these researchers put under the microscope. I prefer to avoid games with social components, particularly those that are multiplayer but even those solo games that include elements like diplomacy and spying. Truth be told, I prefer games that have endless replayability (*without* other human players), total immersion, and a focus on non-abstract strategy and complexity (extra bonus points if I can indulge my love of symmetry and order). Price certainly is always a consideration, but decent realistic graphics (that aid the total immersion) can be a tie-breaker, all other thing equal. The things that are NOT important to me are precisely the things that their carefully selected subjects valued. Do they think evolution just stopped with the invention of language? Word up, guys: some of us aren't hardwired the same as those monkeys you studied. Some of us are wired more like cats than dogs, to use a very old but still apt comparison. Some of us aren't beholden to the rush of oxytocin, some of us don't have a social bone.

    Sincerely,

    the Vulcan Tourist

    1. Re:Who cares about a neurotypical average HERE? by LBU.Zorro · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Interesting - so you're posting on a social website about the fact that you don't like social games?

      Seems odd, maybe it's just me but anyone who really didn't like to interact probably wouldn't be posting on slashdot.. I mean if slashdot isn't a social site what is? Isn't 99% of the content user generated, the vast bulk of it effectively a giant chat room? As in almost 100% social?

      I suspect that the issue you have with games isn't the social side, although you're decided it is, I suspect there's something else you don't like about it - maybe you don't react very fast, maybe you don't come across well when speaking to other players. I've met many people who if they're not good at something they 'hate' it, but something they're good at they like - and it's so rare to have them convert that hate to motivation, to try harder... If I'd never seen this post by you, I might believe you, but since you posted, socially, about your hate of social games I just can't believe that's the case - if you hated social interaction that much then you wouldn't be on slashdot.

      But regardless of that paradox (and looking at how many items you've posted it appears to be one heck of a paradox) I don't quite understand the point of the post...

      Are you suggesting that games developers spend a disproportionately large amount of time writing code to simulate a lot of NPCs to the level you desire for total immersion with the self confessed issue that price is certainly always a consideration and that you're amongst a non-interacting minority that would have to be pretty much directly advertised to? Or are you saying that your ultimate game is tetris? Or what exactly?

      If you truly are as you describe (and I'm pretty sure that whilst you might think you are, the truth is likely different - most people seem to get answers before they even know what the question is) then why would any game developer really care? I mean you're not social so there's not going to be any word of mouth to boost sales of the game, you're going to play the same game a lot and find bugs that others don't see, and you're not that interested in paying a premium to get at that content.

      Designing and creating a game for such a minority just isn't really a paying prospect, what I really don't understand is why you think it should be?

      Why do you feel you're more evolved than the rest of us "Do they think evolution just stopped with the invention of language?" "some of us aren't hardwired the same as those monkeys you studied"? Isn't being different enough? Or does it have to be 'better' different?

      I'm not meaning to have a go, or be mean (although I'm sure it'll look that way) but I always find it to be a very odd attitude people hold, regardless of how you define yourself - that your time (and therefore money) is valuable, but other peoples' time (and therefore money) isn't. You want the game, but you don't want to pay for it, you want a very specific and small niche but again aren't willing to pay for it. I don't know where people get this 'entitlement' attitude from but it seems very out of whack.

      Odd.

      Z.

  43. Re:Captain Obvious by Cheesetrap · · Score: 1

    Holy $DIETY. That site made my brain bleed.

    So you're already a convert? Let it all out, brother! ;)

  44. Re:In practice, theory and practice are different. by blahplusplus · · Score: 1

    "Most people love their graphics, even if they'll then claim 'gameplay' is important on some survey"

    Graphics is a part of gameplay. They are not seperate, hence we call them VIDEO games and not "games mechanics that can't be seen", a game mechanic that is, control, animation systems and visual feedback are all tied together. You can't divorce them from one another in many games without losing something.

    The video aspect of a game has always mattered. It's not that graphics DONT matter, it's that graphics have to have a certain standard before one considers it worth playing vs all the other games you could be playing or else the game itself has to compensate in the gameplay department. Remember every game has to compete with every other game released that one could be playing since the dawn of video games, there are lots of old commercial retro games that are STILL competitive in today's environment, truth is many developers suck at making games... that's the real problem.

    Take Sins of a solare empire or galactic civilizations 2, two ugly'ish games by all accounts but a game I play now and then over other more graphically pretty games.

    Graphical prettyness cannot compensate for lack of depth in genres like Civ4 and alpha centarui and other games in that vein.

  45. Also by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Gamers often don't know what they want. Customers in general often don't know what they want. Just because someone says "This is what I want," doesn't mean you can take it at face value. They will claim to value something highly, and then put little to no value on that in actual purchasing. Basing your study on reviews is thus not a good idea.

    You can witness this in terms of people who continually cry about wanting more "quality" electronics, yest consistently purchasing the cheapest crap they can get their hands on. When you talk to them, they claim that quality and reliability are things they value highly. However their consumption habits show that isn't the case, what they value is low cost an features.

    Also it is likely that what people value depends on the kind of game. In some kinds of games, plot is unimportant. A good example would be an online shooter. Even if there was a fairly good plot, people would skip it to get to the game. The point is to get in with other people and play in a simple, non-persistent environment. However in RPGs, plot is often much more important. People play the game to experience the story. Likewise, in some RPGs multi-player might actually be a drawback. You don't want other people ruining your experience of the story.

    So I agree it is silly to look at reviews and say "This is what is important to gamers." No, that may be what they claim is important, may not be what they actually buy on. Likewise it may be important only for certain types of games.

    Social aspects are very important to my in TF2. The ability to play with others is what makes the game fun, and the ability to have lists of friends and to talk in game is very important to me enjoying it. Plot is not. I'm fine with the fact that there is no plot to speak of, I'd not bother with it if there were. I want to get in and shoot people.

    Socials aspects are not important to Mass Effect. Frankly, I want to be left alone when I play that, it is like a good book where I wish to get enveloped in the story. Plot is highly important. The biggest reason I like that game is its amazing story. I find myself very drawn to it and, like a book, wanting to finish the "good parts" when I get to them.

    Both games are good in different ways, both have received my money. Neither would be improved by trying to take what makes the other good.

    1. Re:Also by cowbutt · · Score: 1

      You can witness this in terms of people who continually cry about wanting more "quality" electronics, yest consistently purchasing the cheapest crap they can get their hands on. When you talk to them, they claim that quality and reliability are things they value highly. However their consumption habits show that isn't the case, what they value is low cost an features.

      I think part of the problem is that 'low cost and features' are easy to verify; you go into the store, or look at some photos, or read some reviews, or at worst, RTFM, and you know what you're getting and for how much.

      On the other hand, build quality, stability, reliability etc. can only be evaluated after purchase (at least these days, now that the formerly-reputable brands have debased themselves by badge engineering generic crap to hit a given price point, rather than confidently and assertively saying "we can't build a quality X for £Y, and we don't think anyone else can either"). And if you're not happy, good like finding a vendor who'll give you your money back.

      So, given the hit-or-miss nature of assessing build quality, it's not surprising consumers select based on the attributes they can easily evaluate.

    2. Re:Also by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      I wish I could tell which electronics were higher quality, though. They price the shit up there with the nice stuff, and sometimes it even comes from the same company. Of course I'm gonna buy cheaper when I can't be sure that it'll work better if it's more expensive. Hell, just look at the XBox360 fiasco... huge name, pretty expensive... and it's a piece of shit. 40%+ failure rate in the first year.

  46. And for the hardcore gamers, by Intrinsic · · Score: 1

    The most important aspect of games is good AI, and world design/mechanics.

  47. This just in... by incognito84 · · Score: 1

    This just in... the story contained in a novel is more important it's choice of font.

  48. Re:Captain Obvious by Canazza · · Score: 1

    is Atkins a Diety? Is the local Deli your temple?

    --
    It pays to be obvious, especially if you have a reputation for being subtle.
  49. Still a game? NO. by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

    According to that study, IRC is the perfect game. Which obviously is wrong, because it is not a game at all. (Not even multiplayer notepad.)
    Those "games" miss some essential elements of what's the definition of a game.
    There is neither something to play with (except maybe other humans), nor are there defined goals. And there's especially no basic fun creating mechanism in it.

    Also, graphics and plot are way too emphasized in TFS.
    In reality, graphics are part of what is called "aesthetics". Something that also includes sound, UI design, and the whole feeling of the world you are in.
    It is one of four main elements of a game. Those are story, aesthetics, mechanics and technology.
    The point is, that they all work as a team, and have to support each other, for it to be a good game.

    You can make a exciting game with mechanics only. (See filler for an example.)
    But why leave out of the emergence-fostering aesthetics, the gripping story and the use of the latest technology, to make the game really great?

    All in all, the study did not study which games are the most fun, but what actions all-in-all are most interesting to us. And it's obvious that human socialization is king here. It's also obvious that when money is scarce, that people prefer those rare games that are not way overpriced. :)

    --
    Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    1. Re:Still a game? NO. by JasterBobaMereel · · Score: 1

      Plot gets you interested in playing the game ....

      Graphics/Sound/interface/engine let you suspend disbelief, and succeed well if they don't get in the way (a bad interface, or engine makes the gameplay annoying)

      The mechanics have to engage you in order for you to continue playing

      The social aspects will extend the gameplay because people are not bots and act in ways the you never expect ....

      Some of the older games I still play are purely down to an engine and interface that do not annoy/get in the way, and enough variety through user levels and network players that I do not lose interest..... I have no idea what the plot is, and the graphics are only good enough ....

      --
      Puteulanus fenestra mortis
  50. Drama writes plot by lena_10326 · · Score: 1

    Therefore, socially networked games write their own plot by way of contributions by the players. The games are essentially chat rooms with awesome graphics.

    --
    Camping on quad since 1996.
  51. Exactly by readthemall · · Score: 2, Interesting
    This smells like a fictional excuse: see, our customers want more online gaming, we will stop selling games on disks, everything will be online, everyone will be happy.

    While game makers might like the idea, I don't. Give me just games which I can play whenever I want without needing Internet connection. And don't worry, in the rare cases when I want to play online I'll do it, just don't try killing the offline gaming.

  52. Re:In practice, theory and practice are different. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Nethack would like to have a word with you.

  53. Sounds like Hollywood by cbraescu1 · · Score: 1

    plot and graphics are not critical to the success of video games; price and the inclusion of social aspects (e.g. multiplayer or chat) were found to be more important

    This sounds awfully similar to today's Hollywood.

    --
    Catalin Braescu
    Ofaly.com
  54. Number of machines per player by tepples · · Score: 0

    'social aspects' matter greatly to me insofar as i enjoy games w/ a local multiplayer component

    Does local-area-networked (LAN-party) multiplayer count as local multiplayer to you?

    1. Re:Number of machines per player by AdmiralWeirdbeard · · Score: 1

      yeah, tho its been a few years since i had a lan party. Mainly my social and professional situation has made me prefer games that can be played w/ a group of people over beers.

      --
      Come read my stupid blagablog. Rants and Giggles
    2. Re:Number of machines per player by tepples · · Score: 0, Troll

      Mainly my social and professional situation has made me prefer games that can be played w/ a group of people over beers.

      Four people, four PCs, four monitors, four keyboards, four mice, twelve beers. What am I missing? Are you talking about games that don't use a computer at all?

  55. Re:Captain Obvious by Schadrach · · Score: 1

    Hey now, don't be hatin' on the blue people. It's not right to harass them for being from Kentucky and being blue...

    In case you don't know who I'm referring to, links regarding the blue Fugates and their disorder follow: http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~kyperry3/Blue_Fugates_Troublesome_Creek.html http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1272/is-there-really-a-race-of-blue-people http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methemoglobinemia

  56. Re:In practice, theory and practice are different. by maxume · · Score: 1

    The things is, graphics are best measured abstractly as attractive or not, not based on mechanical things like resolution or framerate.

    Sure, given the same graphic, higher framerates are better, and higher resolutions create the opportunity to create more attractive graphics, but it isn't a given that a game with faster, higher-res graphics will actually look better than another game.

    --
    Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
  57. Re:Games list? MUD's. by mikael · · Score: 1

    Interesting to see where price fell into this as well.

    The first MUD's ran on university mainframes, and were maintained by sysadmins. As access would either be through a system terminal they were essentially free for students. For other users, it required an annual 25 pound subscription. Here is a link to the original book describing the University of Essex's MUD game.

    --
    Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
  58. So you mean games like... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In other words, classic games like subspace / continuum are what define fantastic games. This game is nearly 13 years old, and plays much like multiplayer asteroids, has an extensive chat system, nearly 30 different functioning zones, and I've always found it to have more replay value than any other game. It's also exclusively player run, so there's no big name company supporting it in any sense. And it's still heavily played by many the world over.

    http://getcontinuum.com/

  59. McDonalds Success! by BerryMadness · · Score: 2, Funny

    But not in my book.

    You good sir have obviously not been going to the one with the play zone.

  60. Re:In practice, theory and practice are different. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Graphics dominate the impulse buy (and the "non-gamer family member buying birthday/christmas present for gamer kid" buy). Because graphics directly fit on the box art, or the 10 second TV commercial, or the internet banner ad. That's why they get the front shelves. You can't really describe great gameplay through box art, so the other games end up in back, since no one was going to impulse buy them anyway; the people who buy those came into the store already knowing they wanted those specific games.

    10 hours into playing the game, graphics fade into the background (as long as they're 'good enough' that they aren't actually a hindrance). 10 hours in is when gameplay dominates; it's when you know for sure that you got a bad game that you're only going to get $5 for trade-in next week, or when you know for sure you'll be playing it a lot longer because it's actually fun. 10 hours in, it's the gameplay that determines whether you start telling your friends to buy or borrow the game.

    "Socialness" is even harder to advertise for. 10 hours into WoW, have you even had a taste of "social gaming"? Either you already had friends in game before you got the game (which is WHY you got the game), or you're still wandering around doing the quests solo.

  61. "just about every RPG" by tepples · · Score: 1
    First you wrote:

    On an RPG that allows modding (which just about every RPG these days does)

    Then you wrote:

    "consoles", the system that's not designed to allow modding.

    Put these together, and you're claiming that "just about every RPG" is designed for the PC. I don't understand where you're getting this.

    1. Re:"just about every RPG" by Totenglocke · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry, I figured that someone familiar with the limitations of consoles would have realized the obvious exception. Next time I'll make sure to spell out "just about every RPG, on the PC, allows modding". Should I also use phrases like "every American, who is a US Citizen..." or "Every man, who has a penis..."?

      And yes, there's a hell of a lot more RPG's on the PC than there are on consoles, especially since a good number of console RPG's (aside from FF and Kingdom Hearts) are ports of PC games.

      --
      "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
  62. Parent is Insightful by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

    The two racial slurs used are equally offensive and equally correct (or incorrect depending on how you look at it) and to agree with one and not the other is somewhat racist. It's like a racist saying "Mexicans are wetbacks, Chinese are chinks, sky is blue" and the response is "agreed on points 1 and 3." The response is either racist or self-contradictory.

    Anyway we shouldn't feed the trolls...

    --
    "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
  63. BG by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Don't know if anyone else mentioned this, but the Baldur's gate series anyone?
    The plot in those games is what has made me keep playing it throughout the years.

  64. I don't dispute this for a second... by Schnoogs · · Score: 0

    ...this has been an age old argument amongst gamers. I for one am someone who plays games for the graphics. There's a reason my fav games of all time are almost all FPS for the PC. These are the games that really pushed the technological/graphical envelope. I fully recognize that I'm in the minority. Luckily for me companies like id, Epic, Valve, Crytek and GSC Game Worlds are out there catoring to engine enthusiasts like myself.

  65. Nintendo DS games... by 7Prime · · Score: 1

    That's nice and good, until you realize that the best selling game system out there is essentially single player: the Nintendo DS. Yes the DS has multiplayer capability, though it is very basic and heavily locked down. Add to it that about 95% of DS games are essentially single player, with multiplayer functionality just tacked on, I think it sort of brings down the idea that multiplayer functionality is somehow central to a game's success. Two of the most played games ever: Solitare and Tetris. These are not lonely examples either. GTA:IV was the top selling console game for a year, and practically every handheld game, are all single player and very successful. I don't know what their study is concentrating on, but the actual sales data doesn't match up.

    --
    Multiplayer Gaming (defined): Sitting around, discussing single-player games with my friends, at the bar.