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Postmortem for a Dead Newspaper

Techdirt points out a great postmortem for the Rocky Mountain News, a newspaper that ended up shutting down because they couldn't adapt to a world beyond print. While long, the talk (in both video and print) is incredibly candid coming from someone who lived through it and shares at least some portion of the blame. "It seems like pretty much everything was based on looking backwards, not forward. There was little effort to figure out how to better enable a community, or any recognition that the community of people who read the paper were the organizations true main asset. ... The same game is playing out not just in newspapers, but in a number of other businesses as well. Like the Rocky Mountain News, those businesses are looking backwards and defining themselves on the wrong terms, while newer startups don't have such legacy issues to deal with."

219 comments

  1. Sad to hear of the RMN by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

    But, contrary to rumors, the Seattle Post-Intelligencer is still alive and well.

    They just don't kill trees to put out their paper, sacrificing electrons instead.

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    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    1. Re:Sad to hear of the RMN by mcgrew · · Score: 3, Funny

      They just don't kill trees to put out their paper, sacrificing electrons instead.

      *sniff* that's TERRIBLE! *sob* Poor little electrons...

    2. Re:Sad to hear of the RMN by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 2, Funny

      Well, we tried to sacrifice positrons, but you saw what happened to the Mount St Helens newspaper when we did that ...

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      -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    3. Re:Sad to hear of the RMN by oldhack · · Score: 1

      They'll be back, probably. Just keep the circuit closed.

      --
      Fuck systemd. Fuck Redhat. Fuck Soylent, too. Wait, scratch the last one.
    4. Re:Sad to hear of the RMN by InlawBiker · · Score: 2, Interesting

      From what I understand the Seattle PI was *always* on shaky ground, even before the Internet came along and took their lunch money. Rumors of their demise have been floating for the last 15 years. I would be interested to know how we'll they're doing in online-only format. I still read their articles only because I know and like their main contributors. But how will new readers find them now? I'm glad I'm not in the news biz.

    5. Re:Sad to hear of the RMN by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

      it's still the same website URL.

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      -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
  2. Several Organizations comes to mind... by Lead+Butthead · · Score: 1, Interesting

    MPAA/RIAA, to name a few (that we love to hate.)

    --
    ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI!?
  3. Original Blog Posting by aembleton · · Score: 4, Informative

    Can't we link to the original source in the article summary? http://www.johntemple.net/2009/09/lessons-from-rocky-mountain-news-text.html

    1. Re:Original Blog Posting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I skimmed it. In other words ignore the end users of your product at your peril. If you think you know better than the end user your usually wrong. Sure there are tons of examples of dumb end users. But in the end if you do not do what a majority of your end users want they will find/invent something that does. What are they asking for now vs 10 years ago? If you do not keep re-evaluating what you are selling you usually end up selling something people no longer want. Do people still want a pet rock? Probably a small few do. But you do not want a factory cranking out 300k a month to satisfy a demand that is not there.

      With newspapers people want more 'local' stories. Less AP/Reuters shoveled at us. So sites like drudge/fark/slashdot and so on took over that market.

      We wanted a place to list our junk for sale and do it cheap. Instead eBay and Craigslist took the market away from them at low costs and better interfaces.

      We wanted news to show up instantly as it happened. So sites put up RSS feeds to shove them at us faster. Instead with newspapers you find out tomorrow.

      We wanted a way to read just our comics instead of 2 pages we ignored. So we went to the individual comic sites and just read them.

      They forgot about the 'why' the people who pay their bills were around. While advertisers probably paid a large portion of the bills. If there is no audience the advertisers will go elsewhere.

      The internet dismantled ever reason a person would want a paper piece by piece. Papers let the genie out of the bottle and there is no way to put him back in.

    2. Re:Original Blog Posting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I'm sorry. A webpage on the Internet will never replace the feel of the morning newspaper in your hand, with a cup of coffee and a danish or bagel within reach of the other.

      Pry. cold. dead.

    3. Re:Original Blog Posting by writermike · · Score: 1

      I skimmed it. In other words ignore the end users of your product at your peril.

      Good point. Newspapers for so long were more authoritarian and, perhaps, sometimes arrogant. We get information to which YOU don't have access. We then present that information to you in a way YOU can understand. YOU need US.

      The Internet, at some point, demanded newspapers regard their readers as more than consumers. It seems some newspapers have a problem with that.

      --
      If Nalgene water bottles are outlawed, only outlaws will have Nalgene water bottles.
    4. Re:Original Blog Posting by paiute · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And a piece of newsprint will never have links embedded in it to get more background on the subject, doesn't have tabs so you can be checking local, regional, and worldwide news with a click, doesn't have video of the event, doesn't let me whip over to Wikipedia to get a quick introduction to topics I'm not up to date on, doesn't let me compare prices between Home Depot/Lowes/Ace Hardware vs. ordering it from Amazon, etc. All while drinking my morning beverage and trying to keep the cream cheese off the keyboard.

      --
      If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
    5. Re:Original Blog Posting by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      It sounds like you aren't really interested in the news, you're more interested in the experience. There are plenty of free papers that are printed and delivered all over the place... why not pick one of those up on your way home? I know around here we have things like The Onion and Westword with ads for local places that allow them to print and distribute the papers for free. That's got your nice dead-tree feel, and we don't have to enact legislation to save those publishers from themselves (which is the only way most current newspapers will continue)

    6. Re:Original Blog Posting by Conception · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It's true, but much like people who "love the feel of a good book in their hands" we are probably the last generation who will agree with that statement much like I'm sure you rather use a calculator than a slide rule despite that a slide rule "feels" a lot better and gives a better grasp of the math than a calculator.

    7. Re:Original Blog Posting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      ...and trying to keep the cream cheese off the keyboard.

      Actually, the newspapers were pretty good at letting you read them, eat and not get cream cheese on the keyboard.

    8. Re:Original Blog Posting by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      And a piece of newsprint will never have links embedded in it to get more background on the subject, doesn't have tabs so you can be checking local, regional, and worldwide news with a click

      I wish I could do any of that at breakfast time. Focusing enough that I can hold the paper the right way up is pretty tricky for me during the sudden horrendous shock of premeridional verticality.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    9. Re:Original Blog Posting by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Except that I still read my paper every day, despite all the info being somewhere online.

    10. Re:Original Blog Posting by gad_zuki! · · Score: 1

      >With newspapers people want more 'local' stories. Less AP/Reuters shoveled at us. So sites like drudge/fark/slashdot and so on took over that market.

      Huh? Drudge is political bullshit, fark is jokey news, and slashdot is random tech stuff. None of this is news, either local or global. For news people go to CNN, google news, etc. Thats what really killed the paper.

    11. Re:Original Blog Posting by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 1

      Ah, but Drudge is not "political bullshit". Drudge is just a really old news aggregator. Who broke the Lady Di death, Monica Lewinski first? Drudge did, 99% of the time all Drudge does is post links to breaking news, without editorialization.

      Yea, fark is "jokey" most of the time but they also green light alot of the "important" stories and its a one stop place for the stupid, funny and serious.

    12. Re:Original Blog Posting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I skimmed it. In other words ignore the end users of your product at your peril.

      Good point. Newspapers for so long were more authoritarian and, perhaps, sometimes arrogant. We get information to which YOU don't have access. We then present that information to you in a way YOU can understand. YOU need US.

      The Internet, at some point, demanded newspapers regard their readers as more than consumers. It seems some newspapers have a problem with that.

      The so called major news networks still operate this way but people are too blind to see it.

    13. Re:Original Blog Posting by commodore64_love · · Score: 2, Insightful

      >>>Drudge is political bullshit

      So it's like CNN and MSNBC

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    14. Re:Original Blog Posting by mefdahl · · Score: 1

      I just discovered the 2D barcode.  I Just got an Android phone and it can read these in a blink.  Now I just ordered a pile of new business cards with QR's for my contact info on the back.  I think this is awesome, and am really surprised this is not used ALOT more.

    15. Re:Original Blog Posting by zenasprime · · Score: 1

      not yet it doesn't... but it will! ;)

    16. Re:Original Blog Posting by Philip_the_physicist · · Score: 1

      In my area they are not unusual anymore, although they are mostly used on advertising for bands or movies aimed at younger people. You don't see them everywhere, but I imagine it is only a matter of time (unless something newer and better comes along, of course).

    17. Re:Original Blog Posting by Azheim · · Score: 1

      We wanted something we could read in the bathroom without being judged... I'm sorry, but paper still beats lappie on this one.

    18. Re:Original Blog Posting by GPF(BSOD) · · Score: 1

      We wanted something we could read in the bathroom without being judged

      Then turn off the webcam. You don't have to record *EVERYTHING*, you know.

      --
      Linux is not a religion. It is a collection of logic. Stop being stupid.
    19. Re:Original Blog Posting by rainsford · · Score: 1

      I think you're right about the "attitude" people are looking for. The problem is that the new news sources are selling themselves on playing to their readers/viewers, and people eat it up so much that they don't notice the incredible lack of quality in the actual information being presented. Slashdot, Fark and Bill O'Reilly are replacing the New York Times, Washington Post and Edward R. Murrow? That's a dramatic drop in the quality of news, all in the name of being more democratic. You express the basic problem in your own post...you think it's BAD that news sources act like they have information we don't have. Of course they act that way, because they DO have information we don't have...that's what makes them good news sources. We're trading that for "news" any random gomer can present because that doesn't make us feel stupid? Not a good trade, if you ask me.

  4. Keep in mind, though by Knara · · Score: 4, Informative

    That RMN and Denver Post were essentially owned by the same parent company. Wasn't really a loss, given that neither paper has been particularly good for quite a while now.

    1. Re:Keep in mind, though by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 1

      I was pleasantly surprised by how well the Post and the News managed to maintain their separate identities under the Joint Operating Agreement, actually. There really was a loss when the latter shut down. No question, they dug their own graves, but it's still a shame.

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    2. Re:Keep in mind, though by mcgrew · · Score: 3, Funny

      I keep seeing RMN and instead of thinking "Rocky Mountain News" I think "Richard Milhouse Nixon". Damn, I'm getting old =(

    3. Re:Keep in mind, though by TJamieson · · Score: 1

      Yeah? Every time I see them write "DP", well.. I guess I've seen too much porn.

      --
      For the last time, PIN Number and ATM Machine are redundancies!
    4. Re:Keep in mind, though by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Knara said,

      That RMN and Denver Post were essentially owned by the same parent company. Wasn't really a loss, given that neither paper has been particularly good for quite a while now.

      Incorrect. The parent companies (Scripps for the Rocky, MediaNews for the DPost) are separate chains. They jointly owned a company called the Denver Newspaper Agency that ran the printing presses, the delivery vans and the ad reps, and split the money remaining after those operating costs between the parent companies. But the DNA had no day-to-day role in determining news content.
      --linda seebach, Rocky writer 1997-2007

    5. Re:Keep in mind, though by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're wrong on both counts.

      First, the "parent" company you're incorrectly referencing was the Denver Newspaper Agency (DNA). That entity was created when the papers entered a Joint Operating Agreement. The DNA booked ads, operated the presses and oversaw a number of non-editorial shared services for both papers. Sort of like you using the same dry cleaner as your biggest rival. Scripps-Howard and MediaNews Group were the actual parent companies respectively for the News and the Post. Each paper was editorially independent

      Second, define "quite a while now", please. The News won four Pulitzers in last ten years.

        [update] it just isn't worth it....continue on.

  5. Horrible submission by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    Why on earth is this a link to a tiny summary of the actual article?
    Here's the article http://www.johntemple.net/2009/09/lessons-from-rocky-mountain-news-text.html

    Techdirt doesn't deserve the ad revenue for such pathetic summary spam

    1. Re:Horrible submission by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would have linked to the original, too. But what you said is like saying Slashdot doesn't deserve the revenue for people linking to its summaries of articles. That's not really the point of the website.

    2. Re:Horrible submission by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, this is more like someone linking to the article summary on slashdot from digg
      Totally stupid

    3. Re:Horrible submission by justaaron · · Score: 1

      If that's how the OP found the article, then TechDirt deserves the link. I know I don't have time to read every blog, and I certainly wouldn't have seen Temple's post without Temple to TechDirt to Slashdot.

      --
      aaron@justaaron.com
  6. BS by p51d007 · · Score: 1, Insightful

    The demise of the print newspaper has a few causes. 1. We live in a 24/7 news cycle, with 24 hour news on tv, cellphones etc. 2. By the time a newspaper is printed & delivered, the "news" isn't new anymore. 3. Most print newspapers have journalist with a very liberal slant, and people don't want that anymore, witness the success of Fox News and online bloggers. 4. You could learn VOLUMES by the stuff they DON'T put in a newspaper.

    1. Re:BS by nomadic · · Score: 2, Insightful

      3. Most print newspapers have journalist with a very liberal slant, and people don't want that anymore, witness the success of Fox News and online bloggers.

      That's a myth concocted by the right to explain why they don't win every election even though they claim they represent a majority of Americans. The only explanation would be someone was "deceiving" all those red-blooded Americans into voting socialist. Journalists, as a class, tend to slant slightly liberal on a personal level (as do people with college educations in general, and I believe in this day and age most journalists have one), but 95% of news, especially local news, doesn't really have much to do with politics, and a lot of the the other 5% they manage more or less to keep their biases out of it. On the national level there are plenty of conservative-leaning newspapers, such as the Wall Street Journal and Washington Times.

    2. Re:BS by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 5, Informative

      Most print newspapers have journalist with a very liberal slant, and people don't want that anymore, witness the success of Fox News and online bloggers.

      Leaving aside the absurdity of the "liberal media" mantra in general ... the Rocky Mountain News was known as Denver's conservative newspaper. And the more they tried to chase the Fox News crowd, the more their fortunes declined. Take that FWIW.

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    3. Re:BS by Tobor+the+Eighth+Man · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Honestly, I disagree with most of these reasons.

      Most of the news on a 24 hour news cycle is old, too. The same stories get endlessly rehashed. Despite the fact that there's more frequent updates and coverage, there's usually not even enough NEWS to fill a 24 hour news cycle. Watch any cable news network for more than an hour and you're liable to hear the same stuff over and over again.

      The point about liberal slants may be true for the editorial sections of a few specific, national newspapers, but most small-town newspapers - the ones that are really suffering - are and have always been fairly conservative, particularly in more rural and conservative areas. Admittedly, this may not be the case with the Rocky Mountain News (I'm not familiar enough with it specifically to comment). But for most local newspapers, the people doing the reporting are just that: local, not so-called "mainstream media elite" from the big city, or what-have-you.

      The reason newspapers are failing is because advertising revenue has fallen in print media, while the price of advertising online is simply too low to sustain the sort of large organizations traditional newspapers have required. That's it. It's not people defecting from dying traditional media to seek the new golden horizon of genius online reporting or sad dinosaurs who can't keep up with the new times, it is a business issue and little else. It's also the fact that the internet is inherently an international medium, and people want national and international news online. And there's simply no way the Bupkisville Free Chronicler can compete with the NY Times, WaPo, and The Times of London on that front.

    4. Re:BS by aristotle-dude · · Score: 2, Insightful

      By "very liberal" you must mean "not foaming-at-the-mouth right-wing reactionary douchebag."

      No, he means "foaming at the mouth" pseudo-left wing reactionary douche bag. If you Americans are going to use the term left or right wing, please use it properly. Democrats are right of center. They are only slightly more to the center than Republicans but there is no popular "left" in the US.

      --
      Jesus was a compassionate social conservative who called individuals to sin no more.
    5. Re:BS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      3. Most print newspapers have journalist with a very liberal slant, and people don't want that anymore, witness the success of Fox News and online bloggers.

      If that's true, why is it that the RMN went under rather than the Post, when the News was generally considered to be the politically more conservative paper?.

      sb

    6. Re:BS by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 5, Insightful

      3. Most print newspapers have journalist with a very liberal slant, and people don't want that anymore, witness the success of Fox News and online bloggers.

      Actually, I'd argue just the opposite. The success of Fox News from a large number of viewers who watch nothing else speaks more to the fact that people will go out of their way and become loyal consumers of "news" that has a distinct slant that confirms the viewers' already conceived ideals. People like news that doesn't give them facts so much as comfortable facts. People like Websites where they can talk to people who don't challenge their ideas and don't make them put in any effort to determine the truth.

      Fox News is the epitome of this and is far more focuses on entertainment than journalistic integrity. Heck, they went to court and argued they have no legal obligation to not fire people for refusing to lie on TV and for refusing to kill a story about a health danger to the public. They're legally right too, they have no obligation not to lie to their viewers, but any organization that makes that argument in court is not "news" any more than a Frootloops commercial is. That's not to say some programs on the network don't have some integrity, of course, but the corporation does not.

      At one time I thought the internet might open up the world. People would be able to hear views from around the world and directly communicate with those people inexpensively. People could thus gain a wider perspective and understanding. In truth, human nature is such that it has allowed us to self segregate more. People don't even have to talk to so diverse a range of people as live in their neighborhood because they can find an online forum that fits exactly with their beliefs and preconceived ideas and spend all their time talking to people without the discomfort of disagreement. It's much easier to complain about one's favorite villainized segment of our society when one does not actually have to hear them and can just attack strawman arguments one poses on their behalf. There are forums for people who thing the earth is flat or is literally 6000 years old and the people there can safely discuss their nonsense knowing the moderators will ban and remove posts from anyone who challenges it with facts or controversy. People don't want unbiased opinion and Fox is another example of the consumer getting what they want and not what they might need.

    7. Re:BS by jellomizer · · Score: 3, Interesting

      No it is true. But they are not Liberal because they are trying to push their views (much like how Fox news does) But they are Liberal as it is easier to report good news.

      In very raw terms. Liberals want to change things. Conservatives dont.
      So Liberals make news (As they feel this problem needs to be addressed) and conservatives are trying to stop such actions (As the solution of the problem will do more harm then good).
      So the news ends up first by targeting the Liberal as they are doing something that is new and news worthy. Then they get the conservatives on the defensive. So in the process of making the news There is a lot of time and effort toward the new idea. And just a little bit explaining the old view.

      What that does is creates news where the Liberal Slant always gets more attention then the conservative.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    8. Re:BS by Rob+the+Bold · · Score: 1

      The demise of the print newspaper has a few causes. 3. Most print newspapers have journalist with a very liberal slant, and people don't want that anymore, witness the success of Fox News and online bloggers.

      Appeal to Reason was liberal. The Daily Kos is liberal. Air America is liberal. Newspaper-wise, AFAIK, there are no liberal daily newspapers of any appreciable size in the US. It's hard to find a paper left of John Birch.

      --
      I am not a crackpot.
    9. Re:BS by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 1, Insightful

      s/Fox/Faux/
      or
      s/News/Propaganda/

      Fixed it for you.

    10. Re:BS by Geoffrey.landis · · Score: 4, Insightful

      3. Most print newspapers have journalist with a very liberal slant, and people don't want that anymore, witness the success of Fox News and online bloggers.

      That's a myth concocted by the right to explain why they don't win every election even though they claim they represent a majority of Americans.

      Yep. It's a self-serving myth that's been pretty thoroughly debunked.

      (And, correspondingly, the far left claims that the news has a significant conservative bias. Both are very self-serving myths for the fringe, since they justifies their telling people to ignore the news, and only listen to their carefully shaped and trimmed news, without those inconvenient facts that might disturb the ideology.)

      In fact, the actual data shows that newspapers almost always turn out to be very well matched in political slant to their readers. (As should be obvious, since if they weren't, they'd lose readers even faster than they now do.)

      Many of the large newspapers that people point to in the US stem from big cities, which have multiple newspapers-- for the most part, these newspapers split the political spectrum, with one newspaper favored by the more conservative readers, and the other favored by the more liberal (e.g., the Boston Globe and the Boston Herald).

      --
      http://www.geoffreylandis.com
    11. Re:BS by wcrowe · · Score: 2, Insightful

      3. Most print newspapers have journalist with a very liberal slant, and people don't want that anymore, witness the success of Fox News and online bloggers.

      I think the conclusion which is being drawn here is incorrect. Yes, Fox News and online bloggers, etc, are successful, but not because they are conservative. They have become popular because they don't really so much report the news, as try to manipulate it in some way so as to cause people to get emotionally involved with the story. It was only coincidental that conservative outlets were the first to do this.

      However, I am seeing this kind of news "reporting" going on with news organizations of all flavors (conservative, liberal, whatever) and at all levels. If you carefully watch any news outlet now, especially TV, you will see them report a news story, then they get a few talking heads to "expound" on the story, and it is done in such a way as to get viewers emotionally charged with the story one way or another. Then, more often or not, they invite the viewer to write in, call in, or otherwise "sound off" about the issue -- which of course the viewers do.

      --
      Proverbs 21:19
    12. Re:BS by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      Repeated surveys have indicated that the majority of those working in the "news" business self-identify as liberal. In addition, an even larger percentage are registered Democratic. I stopped reading the local newspaper after I got tired of seeing political commentary in articles on the sports page. I am sure the writer didn't even know he was doing it, he just made some comment using what he considered a failure of a Republican politician as a simile for the failure of the local sports team.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    13. Re:BS by Obfuscant · · Score: 1
      Newspaper-wise, AFAIK, there are no liberal daily newspapers of any appreciable size in the US.

      The New York Times is a pretty big operation. They even have an international arm dealing their liberal agenda: The International Herald Tribune. Unfortunately, the IHT is often the only serious US newspaper to be found outside the US (McPaper is the usual competitor). That means that "foreigners" and US people who travel are stuck with the liberal view of the US. And CNN is usually the only english-language cable channel in some countries, so it's impossible to avoid. (And if you think CNN is not liberal, consider that they carry "The Daily Show" on the international feed.)

    14. Re:BS by AP31R0N · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Eh. Democrats are our left, we'll call them left. Any further left that that and you're moving back to the right (down?). Much of what the rest of the world calls left leads to a different flavor of authoritarianism. Some authoritarian asshat dictators claim to represent the people, some are honest and don't. Left/right is only one axis of something more complicated. Chavez would likely paint himself as leftist, as might much of the world. But he's a jackbooted thug. That's not what "left" should mean, i think.

      Hrm.

      --
      Utilizing the synergization of benchmark e-solutions to pre-workaround action items!
    15. Re:BS by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      The demise of the print newspaper has a few causes. 3. Most print newspapers have journalist with a very liberal slant, and people don't want that anymore, witness the success of Fox News and online bloggers.

      Appeal to Reason was liberal. The Daily Kos is liberal. Air America is liberal. Newspaper-wise, AFAIK, there are no liberal daily newspapers of any appreciable size in the US. It's hard to find a paper left of John Birch.

      I take it you have never heard of either the Washington Post or the New York Times?

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    16. Re:BS by Enderandrew · · Score: 2, Insightful

      As someone who studied journalism for years, and work for a newspaper, it is very much the truth. The paper I work for is certainly conservative, but most print media is liberal. What amazes me is most of my friends insist that MSNBC has no slant, while most of my coworkers insist that Fox News has no slant.

      When a certain media source matches your own particular views, people tend to think it isn't slanted because it tells you what you want to hear.

      That doesn't mean it isn't slanted. Objective journalism is all but dead in this country, because biased news generates more income.

      --
      http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
    17. Re:BS by mcgrew · · Score: 3, Interesting

      People don't even have to talk to so diverse a range of people as live in their neighborhood because they can find an online forum that fits exactly with their beliefs and preconceived ideas and spend all their time talking to people without the discomfort of disagreement.

      Then explain slashdot -- MS vs Apple, the RIAA apologists you see here in any story about copyright, vi vs Emacs, US vs UK, people for the drug laws vs people with a clue, etc.

      In this community, at least, you have VERY diverse opinions, arguments, areas of expertise, ages (hell, I'm 57 and there are older guys than me here as well as teenagers). There are even a few girls here, believe it or not!

    18. Re:BS by frank_adrian314159 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      ... and conservatives are trying to stop such actions (As the solution of the problem will do more harm then good).

      Yes, because things like abolition of slavery, women's suffrage, and equal rights for African-Americans (all things that the "conservatives" of the time were against) were the downfall of the country.

      --
      That is all.
    19. Re:BS by Enderandrew · · Score: 1

      CNN caries conservative commentators, liberal commentators, etc. CNN has perhaps shifted a bit more to the left in recent years, but CNN usually gives each side some air time. When we went back into Iraq, CNN was giving the White House's take, interviewing protesters, interviewing both parties in Congress, and even showing Al Jazeera's take.

      I'll never forget during the Atlanta Olympics, I saw CNN do a story that there were reports Ted Turner hired people to physically man-handle the homeless, and forcibly move them outside the city before the Olympics. What amazed me was that Ted Turner owned CNN, and the network had the balls to report against their own boss.

      Of course, Ted Turner is rich, and the homeless are not. So nothing happened with the story.

      --
      http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
    20. Re:BS by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 0, Troll

      The self righteous sanctimony and distain you have of what is CLEARLY more people than ABC/NBC/CBS and probably CNN combined is interesting. I'd love to compare the literacy of say those that watch what is on those channels to that of what is on Fox News.

      The problem with people such as yourself, you can't imagine anyone having an opinion that is different than you, and when you even try, you end up saying that they are ignorant(and racist, and sexist ....)

      Take for example the recent march on Washington, who covered it with any depth? If you watched the "main stream" (Urine Stream) news, you may have got a tidbit here or there, with one of the more radical signs of Obama as Hitler or whatever, and if that was the sole source of your "news", you would come away thinking that it was just "20,000" (or a "few") "right wing" cranks.

      The problem is, the left does WAY more to marginalize news they don't want reported than say "Fox" does. It isn't just reporting something, it is HOW it is reported. Yeah, it is easy to say "Don't watch Glenn Beck" and then say "He's a racist"(having never watched or heard him) than it is to watch his whole show and take the quotes in context.

      And now we have a president that has DUBIOUS connections and continues to surround himself with all sorts of "radical" people who are far outside even Democrat mainstream, and now when people finally realize how RADICAL he is, something only FOX actually reported, people are leaving those other news shows in droves.

      And all you can do is insult the "people" thinking your views are superior. Guess what, you're nothing more than an elitist snob, just like the rest of the LEFT.

      I don't need a government to rule over me. Sorry, you can take your views and shove it. I'm a libertarian, and a Libertarian, and government is NOT the solution to any problem I know. It is a necessary evil, and does more harm than good.

      I'm reminded of the quote by George Washington ...

      Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.

      Yeah, I'm one of the "right wing bigots" who think all men are equal. I don't presume to know what is best for someone other than me and my family, and I resent anyone who thinks otherwise!

      So, take your elitist crap and shove it. I get plenty of news from a variety of sources, and I don't listen to just PBS, and I happen to like Fox News. I also like PBS, BBC, and Bloomberg.

      Your whole premise is that people watch Fox News because it fits their views is so elitist and ignorant, and I'll prove it. Do you watch Fox news, and why not?

      The funny thing is, you probably don't watch Fox News, because it doesn't fit your views. The very thing you are accusing others of.

      Pot, meet Kettle.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    21. Re:BS by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      Both are very self-serving myths for the fringe, since they justifies their telling people to ignore the news, and only listen to their carefully shaped and trimmed news, without those inconvenient facts that might disturb the ideology.

      Sounds almost like a religion...

    22. Re:BS by gnick · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think I have to object to your definition of "Center". The democrats and republicans are way too alike for my tastes, but if you're going to say that most of the US is right of center, you've got to decide where you're putting the center. When referencing US politics/voters, I'd call the center somewhere around the middle of the political stances of American politicians and voters. Defining a "global" center seems pretty meaningless for any useful discussion on local politics. Sure, you can say that Holland is generally left of the US. Or you can say that Iran is generally right of the US. But neither of those things mean much for a US-centric discussion.

      Relevant to this discussion, about all you can say is that journalists tend to be to the left of the American center. Or that Americans in general tend to be to the left/right of Country X (although I fail to see how that would relate to the death of American newspapers).

      I'm sorry, I got side-tracked. How does your post relate to newspapers dying again? You're rated at +5, so I'm assuming that I'm missing something important here.

      --
      He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
    23. Re:BS by Kidro · · Score: 1

      There are always exceptions. Also, some people enjoy seeing other points of view, whether it's to broaden their horizons, just to find places to argue or whatever other reason.

    24. Re:BS by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      The News was just like the Post is... all they primarily do is "fluff" pieces about local fairs and festivals and travel, and they reprinted AP stories. They don't really highlight if they have any reporters doing real investigative journalism, and they don't give people a good reason to subscribe. And since the people are their product (you have to sell something to advertisers...), they're losing business. It's not hard to understand.

    25. Re:BS by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      I misread your statement at first. Glad you put the or in there... switching both would be wrong. Fox "News" is quite real propaganda.

    26. Re:BS by Old97 · · Score: 1

      If you're in Europe, my map says you are to the right of us.

      --
      Very often, people confuse simple with simplistic. The nuance is lost on most. - Clement Mok
    27. Re:BS by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Then explain slashdot -- MS vs Apple, the RIAA apologists you see here in any story about copyright, vi vs Emacs, US vs UK, people for the drug laws vs people with a clue, etc.

      Well partly some people do like a good argument and a disagreement and to be challenged, they're just a minority. Those people will go out of their way to find places to get a discussion or to try to espouse their beliefs and attack the beliefs of others. Some people go to christian chat rooms simply to tell them they're all idiots for not being atheists... but those people are fairly uncommon. Partly, people still argue with one another, just over comfortable issues once they can assume a like minded. Some people are happy to argue about whether the mantle that covered the heavens before Noah's flood was made of ice or liquid water, once they know they're in a comfortable setting where they won't be ridiculed for their lack of reason or scientific understanding for believing there was a giant flood that covered the whole earth in the first place.

      Slashdot is also interesting because it is a subject matter site. People will argue the objective merits of vi and emacs all day, but they know that if someone comes at them with an argument that reading or writing anything but the bible is the work of satan and that they are going to hell because the bible says so, that person will be modded down by the community of modders, sort of protection in numbers for the ego.

      In this community, at least, you have VERY diverse opinions, arguments, areas of expertise, ages...

      Certainly, but we also filter out a large range of arguments, mostly ones that are not nerdy enough, like faith based assertions, and threats of personal violence. To call the membership of Slashdot diverse is fair in a way, but it is a self selecting group of people who pride themselves on being nerds, that is intelligence. This alienates a huge portion of the population and makes Slashdot readership very atypical. Heck, go down to your local bar and try to have the same kind of conversations as a typical one on this forum. It seems to be that people who value intelligence (a commonality here) are one of the subsets of our population that do like to argue for the sake of the discussion and the value it can bring.

    28. Re:BS by pj2541 · · Score: 1

      I call BS on your BS: Firstly, you say there are "plenty" of conservative-leaning newspapers, then go to list all (both) of them. That's not plenty in my book.

      Secondly, there have been many studies, even some by the more liberal papers, that show a liberal bias in MUCH more than 5% of "news" reporting. Often the slant is simply by omitting a story that would reflect well on conservatives or conservative positions.

      Alas, the journalists come by it honestly, if you have a conservative bias (or even show no bias at all) in journalism school, you will be at least ostracized, and likely flunked out. The liberals (by which I mean well left of center) control our institutes of higher education, and journalism schools are certainly no exception.

    29. Re:BS by marnues · · Score: 1

      As a liberal and a sometimes reader of the NYT, I have to disagree with your statement. I've read plenty of libertarian-slanted news in the NYT. Yes you're not going to find much in the way of socially conservative opinions there, but that's because people at the NYT are intelligent. However, I can guarantee that the NYT does hit all of the economic spectrum.

      Also, the Daily Show is not really a liberal show. Just anti-stupid, which thanks to the number of socially conservative and libertarian fanatics, means they pick on conservatives/republicans more often than not. Don't get me wrong, liberals can do stupid things. But there just are the shear numbers of fanatics on the left.

    30. Re:BS by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      With enough meaningful information, such that the reader becomes well
      informed and can make their own conclusions, the political slant of
      the media outlet doesn't really matter much. In this rush to elevate
      "objectiveness" it seems that quality was ignored.

      News media any more seems all about crass pandering to their percieved
      audience. ALL of the news organizations for the most part seem more like
      official government propaganda ministries because of this. It is remarkably
      ironic considering people like Goebbels and Orwell.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    31. Re:BS by marnues · · Score: 0

      I disagree for 2 reasons. This axis you're talking about is only concentrated in politics. The American public has a similar political spread as every other country, our liberals just don't tend to vote. We have this problem of hippies being lazy and thinking it's cool to not participate in the system. Because our politics are right of center, American liberals take what little they can get rather than fighting for what they believe in. Which is why the Democratic party is completely at odds with itself. However, this also means left-of-center people in America are very pragmatic. Note that I only said left-of-center. Our leftists are just as idealistic as anywhere else. Which comes back to the point about journalists. They identify as liberals because journalists have greater exposure to political thought than most people. However, many liberals in America identify as moderates because they are so pragmatic and see no need to attach a label that means others can trample on their opinion. Journalists just happen to be in a profession where substance behind a stance is given much more credence than labels.

    32. Re:BS by Ykant · · Score: 1

      I suspect that your intent is sarcasm, but some would agree on those points.

      --
      Spelling, grammar, punctuation? We need something that checks logic.
    33. Re:BS by bebopkid · · Score: 1

      Fox just like every other television news source are completely entertainment and why a Republitarian like me doesn't watch them any more (even if I do agree with them most times). I mean, what news does O'Reily or Hannity break? They just talk about past news like gossip. But, this is the same garbage I get from CNN, ABC and (the worst one) MSNBC.

      What evidence do you have besides that you don't like Fox that people only watch that confirms their presuppositions? Do you watch Fox? Have you ever agreed with Fox on anything?

      If anything, people hate the current talking heads because they are pushing their own agenda -- on all sides.

      The Internet is exposing people to other views because news sites, like /., are not pushing political views -- just their readers. Which, seems to be a trend considering that quasi-non partisan sites are more popular than the traditional ones.

      Furthermore, I don't think there's anything wrong with going to places that you agree with because you believe their right, not because you're sheltering yourself from opposing views.

      (Is this divine confirmation?... "Yesterday's Papers" just came on my 3"x4"x2" Creative Nomad!)

    34. Re:BS by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The self righteous sanctimony and distain you have of what is CLEARLY more people than ABC/NBC/CBS and probably CNN combined is interesting.

      This is called "argumentum ad populum" and has been recognized as a logically fallacious argument for thousands of years.

      I'd love to compare the literacy of say those that watch what is on those channels to that of what is on Fox News.

      You want to compare the literacy rate of "those who watch what is on those channels" with "what is on Fox News". Maybe you should work on your own literacy a bit, because that doesn't even make sense. Assuming you meant that you want to compare the literacy rates of viewers of Fox New with the literacy rate of viewers of other news programs, I don't think you'll find the results flattering to Fox. I assume you can agree there is probably a strong positive correlation between those that vote republican and those that watch Fox? Because there is a moderately significant correlation between people who no not pass high school and who vote Republican. That is not conclusive of course, but it does suggest just the opposite correlation you seem to imply.

      The problem with people such as yourself, you can't imagine anyone having an opinion that is different than you...

      Gee what a compelling argument... that is compellingly pointless and from someone who doesn't know me. I don't have any problem with people who have other opinions, I just also recognize not all other opinions are logical or even reasonable. This isn't grade school and everyone isn't equally right. You have to form opinions rationally and defend them logically and show your work, or you are simply wrong.

      ...you end up saying that they are ignorant(and racist, and sexist ....)

      And this is the ever popular strawman argument. You'll note that you say that I will say people are sexist and racist, when I said no such thing.

      I'm not going to read through all of your long and rambling nonsense. Given your writing so far, I don't think you have much of a grasp on the concepts or logic or reason or rhetoric or at least no formal education since you seem to be ignoring all the rules needed for a rational and civil discussion. If you have a problem with what I have written or want to discuss, then by all means, reply to my previous post again. But this time, actually address the specific points I made with specific and reasoned rebuttal. I'll be happy to address a reply in that format. For now, however, I'm writing you off as a nutjob and not bothering to finish reading your nonsense.

    35. Re:BS by mdarksbane · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I think a fair amount of the media bias is really an urban bias.

      Most major news networks are based in and around large cities. Most major news stories reported on come from those cities, and most viewers and reporters are from those cities.

      However, it's still largely a national media. The people in rural Ohio watch the same national news broadcast as do the people in Manhattan.

      Some issues of right or left, this isn't a big deal. Others it is - just as an example, a reporter from New York City or DC (where guns are almost completely banned for personal, law-abiding use, and no one grows up hunting) is going to have a very different perspective, regardless of any intended bias, from someone who lives were hunting and target shooting are a large part of their life, and that's going to show up when they cover a gun control related issue or a shooting.

      You can call it a left versus right bias, but I think that implies consistency on more issues than what you actually see. There are conservatives living in urban areas - but their conservatism is likely to be of a very different kind than those living in small towns. News programs are speaking to a national audience, but they still can only really know a local culture, no matter how many different polls they take. Even if someone is trying to be neutral, his viewpoint of what is "normal" is going to affect which viewpoints he feels he needs to be neutral toward.

    36. Re:BS by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Some people go to christian chat rooms simply to tell them they're all idiots for not being atheists

      Well, they're called "trolls", just as a Christian going to an athoest chat room telling them they're all going to hell is a troll. There are plenty of them here.

      Heck, go down to your local bar and try to have the same kind of conversations as a typical one on this forum.

      I have, and have been impressed at times. But then again, I think there are a lot of nerds in this town or there wouldn't be a "Starship Billiards" and a "Starfleet Lock Company" and a lot of other businesses with hnerdy names. Plus, when I was writing the Paxil Diaries at K5, I found out that most of the guys I was hanging around and writing about were K5 readers, and my fans, but didn't realize that I was mcgrew and that the stories were about them.

    37. Re:BS by BobMcD · · Score: 1

      Journalists, as a class, tend to slant slightly liberal on a personal level (as do people with college educations in general, and I believe in this day and age most journalists have one)

      Is this a fact? It sounds like an opinion to me.

      but 95% of news, especially local news, doesn't really have much to do with politics, and a lot of the the other 5% they manage more or less to keep their biases out of it.

      Your percentages are likely skewed, depending on your value of 'much'. I would think you will find this probably varies based on market, as well.

      It seems to me you are debunking a myth with your own myths, which is confusing.

    38. Re:BS by Obfuscant · · Score: 1
      CNN caries conservative commentators, liberal commentators, etc.

      Called your bluff. I just looked at CNN's schedule for the next three days. Not a single conservative commentator in the list. And I've watched them, especially their international service, and know that they didn't have any conservatives on there, either.

      Of course, Ted Turner is rich, and the homeless are not. So nothing happened with the story.

      It never crossed your mind that the story wasn't true to start with? Just like the Rather story about Bush's military time? You give too much credit to the liberal news media you watch, assuming everything they tell you is true and that the only reason nothing happened to Ted is because he's rich.

    39. Re:BS by Alomex · · Score: 1

      From around 1970-1990 it might have been true. Today news are lead and dominated by Fox News, Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck. The type of things they can say and get away with (just in terms of plain personal insults) far surpasses what any liberal journalist would be allowed to say.

    40. Some people go to christian chat rooms simply to tell them they're all idiots for not being atheists

      Well, they're called "trolls", just as a Christian going to an athoest chat room telling them they're all going to hell is a troll.

      Sure some are trolls, just wanting to provoke a response, but a lot are people who actually want to express themselves and believe what they're saying. Traditionally trolls espouse views they don't believe in order to get a response.

    41. Re:BS by 4D6963 · · Score: 1

      Well if you look at it in the short term, yes. Abolition of slavery -> the Civil war. The civil rights movements -> lots of social and political unrest, riots and demonstrations.

      If you're a short sighted man, change is very rarely worth it.

      --
      You just got troll'd!
    42. Re:BS by TomTuttle · · Score: 0, Troll

      "In fact, the actual data shows that newspapers almost always turn out to be very well matched in political slant to their readers. (As should be obvious, since if they weren't, they'd lose readers even faster than they now do.)" Hmmmm. And yet most large news papers are failing. Would this perhaps be some indication that *maybe* a certain type of political slant is not being represented well? I believe it was the philosopher-king Ernie Anastos that said "Keep f***ing that chicken".

    43. Re:BS by Obfuscant · · Score: 1
      This isn't grade school and everyone isn't equally right. You have to form opinions rationally and defend them logically and show your work, or you are simply wrong.

      You've just proven the point you were trying to deny. They aren't "different", they are "simply wrong". And you're the one holding the red pen grading other people's opinions, so you get to decide if what you don't believe could be "logical" or "rational". No possible bias there.

      I saw a poll the other day. Don't remember where. Maybe here. 70% of people now believe that the mainstream media have a bias. I suspect that everyone in the mainstream media are in the remaining 30% who deny it.

      For now, however, I'm writing you off as a nutjob ...

      Yes, he must be "simply wrong", and if you can't prove it logically and rationally, you'll write him off as a nutjob. Careful you don't run out of red ink correcting everyone else's papers.

    44. Re:BS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Classic .. a guy using the name "Archangel Michael" calls people out for being "sanctimonious"

    45. Re:BS by MozeeToby · · Score: 1

      It's a wellknown fact that reality has an unfair liberal bias.

    46. Re:BS by JSBiff · · Score: 1

      "And there's simply no way the Bupkisville Free Chronicler can compete with the NY Times, WaPo, and The Times of London on that front."

      Excellent point. Something which the original article's author skirts around, but never seems to quite get is one of his points "Know your competition". He talked a great deal about the two 'local' regional papers being in a 'war' to 'own' the local market. In the Internet age, I can get news from anywhere, instantly, usually for free (although, honestly, I'm not against paying for *some* content, if it actually is in-depth and original). The truth is, every newspaper is now in competition with *every other online newspaper*.

      What we are going to see is industry consolidation. Not all newspapers will die. I don't expect the NYT, WSJ, WaPo, LaTimes or a few other large papers will all fold (though, even some of the 'majors' may die too). The best run, most innovative papers will continue to exist.

      In a local/regional perspective, there will still, I think, be a need for regional and local reporting, and a demand for it. However, such local and regional reporting will probably be from small organizations which don't have a large staff, large building, or large expenses, so can be profitable with maybe 10 or 20 employees. Perhaps such 'organizations' will be small parts of larger news organizations, so that you go to a large regional newspaper (like, the Cincinnati Enquirer in my area), and they have a small, semi-independent organization/section inside which has one full-time staff reporter for each of the suburbs and communities in the greater Cinci area, and maybe 2-3 'at-large' reporters to help out all the dedicated reporters when they need extra staff to cover additional stories the one or two full-timers don't have time to cover.

      When there is a cheaper, more efficient way to provide the products and services people want, smaller/cheaper wins. The past of newspapers was lots of large and medium-sized organizations with hundreds or maybe even thousands of employees, the future, I think, will be fewer, and smaller. There will still be large news organizations, but they will, I think, be smaller than they were in the past, and the smaller news organizations of the past will be very small in the future.

    47. Re:BS by Rob+the+Bold · · Score: 1

      The demise of the print newspaper has a few causes. 3. Most print newspapers have journalist with a very liberal slant, and people don't want that anymore, witness the success of Fox News and online bloggers.

      Appeal to Reason was liberal. The Daily Kos is liberal. Air America is liberal. Newspaper-wise, AFAIK, there are no liberal daily newspapers of any appreciable size in the US. It's hard to find a paper left of John Birch.

      I take it you have never heard of either the Washington Post or the New York Times?

      I've heard of them both.

      --
      I am not a crackpot.
    48. Re:BS by Geoffrey.landis · · Score: 1

      "In fact, the actual data shows that newspapers almost always turn out to be very well matched in political slant to their readers. (As should be obvious, since if they weren't, they'd lose readers even faster than they now do.)" Hmmmm. And yet most large news papers are failing. Would this perhaps be some indication that *maybe* a certain type of political slant is not being represented well?

      If it had been the case that particularly papers of "a certain type of political slant" that were failing, perhaps, but it's not.

      But, more notably, it turns out that newspapers in general do tend to mirror the politics of their consistencies.

      For data, here's a paper.
      Here are the salient paragraphs from a summary: [from the data, it turned out that] "...the main driver of any slant was the newspaper's audience, not bias by the newspaper's owner. A comparison of circulation data (per capita) to the ratio of Republican to Democratic campaign contributions by ZIP code showed that circulation was strongly related to whether the newspaper matched the readers' own ideology... The authors calculated the ideal partisan slant for each paper, if all it cared about was getting readers, and they found that it looked almost precisely like the one for the actual newspaper. As Dr. Shapiro put it in an interview, "The data suggest that newspapers are targeting their political slant to their customers' demand and choosing the amount of slant that will maximize their sales.""

      --
      http://www.geoffreylandis.com
    49. Re:BS by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What evidence do you have besides that you don't like Fox that people only watch that confirms their presuppositions? Do you watch Fox? Have you ever agreed with Fox on anything?

      My hypothesis was that people watch news shows and read news blogs because those shows confirm their presuppositions and challenge them less with facts that contradict their world view. I further hypothesized that Fox was the forefront of this movement. My support for this was the well documented trend of Fox News viewers to not watch any other news channel, when compared to those who view other stations which were shown to be more willing to consume news from multiple sources (not necessarily on the same issue).

      I don't watch Fox News (although I did in the past) but then I don't really watch news on TV at all. I mostly prefer to read my news, primarily via internet outlets and aggregation sites like news.google.com. As to whether I agree with Fox on anything, if it comes to that, it isn't news. News is supposed to be presenting facts, not opinions and I'm sure some of the facts Fox presents are, well, factual. I am not willing to trust that however, given their track record. In my mind they lost any benefit of the doubt I would give to a normal news program or agency when they pissed on journalistic integrity in their court case.

      The Internet is exposing people to other views because news sites, like /., are not pushing political views -- just their readers.

      I don't think I follow you. How is that exposing people to other views? And what makes you think the average person goes to sites like Slashdot instead of special interest sites. My brother might be a good example of an average guy. The websites he visits and gets news from are devoted to AR-15 ownership, Kawasaki motorcycle ownership, and kayaking. The majority of the news he reads comes as articles posted in one of these three forums, with the vast majority being from the first one. He has pretty well self selected himself into getting a very narrow selection of news because of that, and I should think that is actually the norm.

      Which, seems to be a trend considering that quasi-non partisan sites are more popular than the traditional ones.

      I don't know what you mean in your terminology. What's a quasi-non partisan site? Do you have an example or two?

      Furthermore, I don't think there's anything wrong with going to places that you agree with because you believe their[sic] right, not because you're sheltering yourself from opposing views.

      We're not arguing the morality of what people are doing here. I was just discussing what I see the trends to be and how I think that has negative results. People tend towards internet sites that provide filtered news with a predetermined slant already injected. I see that as limiting and divisive and simply partitioning our society into smaller groups with less exposure to diverse views and facts that people in their small societal subset tend not to be exposed to.

      I'm not trying to argue partisan politics here either. I think the Democratic and Republican parties are both very wrong about half the time. There isn't even a third party that lines up well with my values and understanding of the world. When I'm on Google news and I see five different papers have an article on something, I click on the BBC first, because they don't provide much opinion in their news and tend to do a professional job with the facts (and because their take on US news tends to be a bit less slanted). Fox isn't on my shitlist because of what their political affiliations are any more than say NBC. They are there because they have such strong political affiliations which does not make for credible news. They are leading the charge towards slanted partisan news and they have rejected of any sort of journalistic integrity. If tomorrow NBC were in court arguing they had a legal right to lie to their v

    50. Re:BS by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Was there ever unbiased media? Go back 100 years or more and newspapers were wildly skewed towards certain political viewpoints.

    51. Re:BS by greg_barton · · Score: 2, Interesting

      At one time I thought the internet might open up the world.

      It did open the world. It just didn't open up people.

      Sometimes people just open up. Natural causes. Give it time. Yes, the internet has allowed people to self segregate, but that was already happening. What the internet has done is introduce the possibility that those who don't want to self segregate don't have to. You don't have to physically move out of your community to freely get exposed to new ideas. And when people open up and become educated that they can in turn educate those around them. (Though it's of course also possible that they'll become shunned by their ideologically insular community. It's a sloooooooow process.)

    52. Re:BS by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      "Agenda"?? Do sane people really believe some of these organizations have written down an agenda with detailed steps to achieve nefarious goals?

    53. Re:BS by Enderandrew · · Score: 1

      I only read CNN.com these days. But let me look at the same list:

      Wolf Blitzer: Don't watch TV, but quick Google searches show he has defended military action, is more concerned with Israeli relations, and has called out other people on CNN for being liberal. He suggested if you're liberal, you may not be a good Catholic. He sure sounds really liberal.

      Anderson Cooper: Claims to be independent. I'm pulling up his blog, and on the first page he is criticizing Obama. Clearly, he is overtly liberal.

      Campbell Brown: Appears to be liberal.

      Lou Dobbs: Supported Bush, so he must be very liberal. The first few search results show Dobbs is a finance man first who has been extremely critical of Democrats on most issues.

      Larry King: This is a guy I've watched a lot. He is an aging Jewish guy, not a huge market for liberals. But apparently in his auto-biography he is a self-professed liberal. That being said, his reporting and interviews seem to be pretty moderate/centrist.

      John King appears to be a conservative, or enough that he is called out by liberals to be Cheney's puppy.

      Fareed Zakaria is a self-professed liberal.

      And on all the debate shows, CNN brings on people from both sides. You won't see MSNBC do that. Fox News will do that, but Fox News is extremely biased on the whole and makes little effort to hide their bias.

      You look at CNN, you see people in the left, right and middle.

      --
      http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
    54. Re:BS by IgnoramusMaximus · · Score: 4, Informative

      The self righteous sanctimony and distain you have of what is CLEARLY more people than ABC/NBC/CBS and probably CNN combined is interesting ...

      Someone already pointed out that this is an argumentum ad populum type of logical fallacy and so I will skip right to this:

      I'd love to compare the literacy of say those that watch what is on those channels to that of what is on Fox News.

      If by "literacy" you mean "knowledge about the current affairs", then ask and you shall receive.

      From there: the 2nd least informed and most confused (about basic geographic, geopolitical and other everyday facts) class of viewers: Fox News Viewers. Beaten only by the Network Morning Shows, of the "How to make Cookies with Martha Stewart and 3 other bimbo celebrities" variety, firmly holding the rather dubious honour of being the dumbest audience ever.

      Conversely, most informed audience: The Daily Show with Jon Stewart. Oops.

      Somehow I do not think this is what you were looking for.

      And the rest of the drivel you posted goes down hill from here, to the point that it is not even worth responding to.

    55. Re:BS by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This isn't grade school and everyone isn't equally right. You have to form opinions rationally and defend them logically and show your work, or you are simply wrong.

      You've just proven the point you were trying to deny. They aren't "different", they are "simply wrong". And you're the one holding the red pen grading other people's opinions, so you get to decide if what you don't believe could be "logical" or "rational". No possible bias there.

      There isn't bias in deciding what is logical and rational because it is a formalized method. I have no problem with people who have different opinions than I do and people with access to different facts or who have a fundamental difference of value can reasonably and rationally disagree. The rhetorical method of discussion is how people discuss and issue to do one of three things:

      • determine what the fundamental disagreement about a fact is so that it can be researched
      • discover what the fundamental difference of value is so that others can understand the fundamental difference and everyone can better form their own opinion
      • expose a logical flaw in the decision making process of one or more of the rhetoricians so that they can correct it

      You see, some people simply are wrong in their opinions, wrong as in incorrect not wrong as in immoral (as that is subjective). I am happy to acknowledge the opinions of others as just as valid as mine, but I expect the same rigor in discussion that I present. If people aren't forming their opinions according to a logical process then they have no basis for presenting an argument to others and should not bother to try.

      I saw a poll the other day. Don't remember where. Maybe here. 70% of people now believe that the mainstream media have a bias.

      Everyone has bias. It's inherent in our nature. That's why we develop formal processes to limit the effect it has on our formal communication with others. The news is supposed to be using journalistic methods and reporting facts, not their opinion of facts. I postulated that this is becoming less and less the case because the public prefers bias. They prefer to be given not just facts, but a comfortable opinion as to how they should interpret those facts.

      For now, however, I'm writing you off as a nutjob ...

      Yes, he must be "simply wrong", and if you can't prove it logically and rationally, you'll write him off as a nutjob.

      In the opening lines of his rant he committed several logical fallacies. That is incorrect, but moreover, he was not addressing the points I made in his writing, and that's not even an argument, it's some guy going off on a rant without addressing the statements that led him to go off on a rant.

      So yes, he is simply wrong in that he argued that because most people believe something it must be true. He is simply wrong in that he attacked what he claims I was going to accuse him of in the future. He was wrong in that his writing did not address what I wrote and was thus not relevant. He was not wrong in that he did not bother to educate himself well enough to form a rational opinion and present it, but he was deficient and I don't see a lot of point in presenting reason to people who don't understand it or reading a lengthy rant obviously written by someone who is irrational. But I did not refuse to have a discussion with him, I just presented reasonable boundaries if he wants to have a civilized discussion and asked him to adhere to them.

    56. Re:BS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Agreed. Librerals what to change this country from a republic with a capitalist economy to something else; conservatives are trying to stop this.

    57. Re:BS by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 2

      You mean things that the Republican Party backed and the Democratic Party fought against.

    58. Re:BS by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      This is called "argumentum ad populum" and has been recognized as a logically fallacious argument for thousands of years.

      If you're going to grade my argument, then you best be sure you know what you're talking about in the first place. The point I was making wasn't about the numbers of people, but the Elitism. I wasn't arguing about the popularity being right, I was arguing that your view was one of disdain for a large number of people.

      You want to compare the literacy rate of "those who watch what is on those channels" with "what is on Fox News".

      No you idiot, the "Those" in the original quote applies to both "that watch" portions. I'll fix it for you, so you can understand exactly what I meant.

      I'd love to compare the literacy of say those that watch what is on those channels to those that watch what is on Fox News.

      And if you didn't understand what I meant, you should have asked for CLARITY rather than being an ignorant grammar nazi.

      Because there is a moderately significant correlation between people who no not pass high school and who vote Republican.

      Citation needed.

      Wait, I got one .... http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/polls/#USP00p1

      Look for Voting by Education, take a look at those who voted for Obama who didn't graduate HS ... 63% and McCain .... 35%.

      I could equally say that most uneducated, and under educated minorities vote Democratic, but you'd call that "Racist", even if it is true. (and is the reason why (D) tend to vote to keep them ignorant, eg School Choice via vouchers)

      or at least no formal education since you seem to be ignoring all the rules needed for a rational and civil discussion.

      Blame it on my Public Education then, okay? My parents weren't rich enough to send me to one of those elite private schools where people can get a "formal" education.

      I went to public schools and public university and have a degree in Business Finance and I haven't worked a day in the Financial sector since college. I've been in IT. So I'm just a stupid ignorant idiot, yup. Thank you for reminding me how bad public education REALLY is. (That is Sarcasm, in case you missed it).

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    59. Re:BS by zulux · · Score: 1

      If I remember my history it was the Republicans (conservatives) that got rid of slavery and supported women's sufferage.

      Pesky things... those facts.

      --

      Moneyed corporations, non-working 'poor' and criminal prisoners are turning productive citizens into tax-slaves.

    60. Re:BS by zulux · · Score: 0, Troll

      >>Conversely, most informed audience: The Daily Show with Jon Stewart. Oops.

      I'm a Daily Show viewer here.... and I don't read too much into "being informed."

      Sure - knowing the triviality of short-term world events is great and all.

      But raising a family, working hard, being kind, helping your friends and neighbors, looking around for love and perhaps spirituality are worth so much more in the long term.

      I have more respect for a man who can drop a transmission than one who knows the top three reasons why Chavez is an awesome leader.

      --

      Moneyed corporations, non-working 'poor' and criminal prisoners are turning productive citizens into tax-slaves.

    61. Re:BS by s73v3r · · Score: 1

      The parties of today are nowhere near what they were back then, or even 50 years go. Politics change.

    62. Re:BS by IgnoramusMaximus · · Score: 3, Insightful

      perhaps spirituality

      That, and lack of knowledge about various "trivialities", like science etc, is the sure-fire path to mind-boggling religious woo-woos, assorted New-Age hokum, and sooner or later to "spiritual" stock market Ponzi schemes.

      I have more respect for a man who can drop a transmission than one who knows the top three reasons why Chavez is an awesome leader.

      Which is truly great if one needs one's transmission overhauled. Of course when one is interested in what Chavez is up to ... then not so much. Which is precisely the point. People who care about their transmissions far more than about the geo-political goings-on, should not then act surprised and violently upset when their opinions on the global affairs are summarily put into the "laughable nonsense" file.

      You see, what you are trying to do here is the classic case of "have your cake and eat it too". Either you are willing to invest the time and effort to get informed, at which point you get the chance of your opinion having some probability of being correct, or you are pretty much guaranteed to be wrong and thus justly treated like the ignorant hillbilly you seem when you try, loudly, very very loudly, to enforce your "view" on those who actually spent time trying to learn the stuff. A fact which most anti-intellectuals refuse to accept (which is why they are anti-intellectuals and why they watch Fox). Which, incidentally, was historically always quite popular at times, the "an-angry-and-menacing-mob-is-always-right" (particularly when confronting wimpy "intellectuals", "professors", "scientists" and the like) branch of philosophical approach to scientific debate never quite having gone out of style.

      To put it in the terms you mentioned, it is like having some salesman show up and demand that you take his advice as to the exact procedure of removal of that hypothetical transmission, despite having never seen one up close, never you mind knowing how one works. But he claims that he doesn't need to know so because he has far more respect for people who know how to calculate compound interest lease payments in their head, than some "trivial" "transmission repair" knowledge.

      You see, he goes for the Mammon "spirituality" view of the world, where Everything Is A Sale (sadly I am not kidding, I personally knew a salesman who actually believed that life was one gigantic, never-ending series of Sales).

    63. Re:BS by tehdaemon · · Score: 1

      There are conservatives living in urban areas - but their conservatism is likely to be of a very different kind than those living in small towns.

      Actually, I don't think that is the case. It is just that the conservatives in urban areas are mostly first-generation urbanites. Unless you are talking about the deep south, or Utah for example. Those urban conservative areas do tend to be different from the rural conservatives, but it is the whole area, not just 'some conservatives'.

      T

      --
      Laws are horrible moral guides, moral guides make even worse laws.
    64. Re:BS by Walkingshark · · Score: 1

      They carry the Daily Show because it is hilarious and extremely popular, and both Comedy Central and CNN are owned by the same people.

      --
      The world you experience is only a close approximation of reality.
    65. Re:BS by canadian_right · · Score: 1

      For most of the western world, not small leftist dictatorships, the USA Democrats are pretty far to the right, and the Republican's would considered extremists. I'm talking about France, Germany, Canada, the UK, not Venezuela. There is LOTS of room to the left of the Dems.

      --
      Anarchists never rule
    66. Re:BS by religious+freak · · Score: 1

      I would tend to agree that CNN has a slightly liberal bias, but comparing it to Fox News in terms of spectrum is like comparing a butter knife to a samurai sword. However, I can't stand CNN because of the adjectives, constant "breaking news" marquee, and style over substance.

      In terms of actual dissemination of information the way I like to hear it, IMHO: CNN is garbage, MSNBC is crap, and Fox News is the absolute worst. Newshour with Jim Lehrer on PBS is awesome... simply the best. Jim Lehrer assumes you have an attention span of greater than 30 seconds - CNN never fully explains anything and seems to cater to someone that doesn't actually want to fully understand an issue - but that's just MHO.

      Wall Street Journal and New York times each have their respective minor political bent, but they are great publications nonetheless. I can't even stand to watch CNN anymore.

      --
      If you can read this... 01110101 01110010 00100000 01100001 00100000 01100111 01100101 01100101 01101011
    67. Re:BS by NateTech · · Score: 1

      It's too bad we're figuring out too late that 24 hour news, isn't... and you can stay quite nicely up to speed with the world reading a newspaper once a day. A bit ironic, really. All CNN, et. al., are good for is live shots of stuff, if they even bother to get there. Otherwise, you can read about it in a paper the next day and your life won't be much different.

      Well, other than the possibility that the reporter took some time and effort to fact-check the damn story. Even that's not guaranteed, or even considered that important anymore, in the rush to be "first" with the news, but at least there was a small window of time to do it for a newspaper reporter...

      --
      +++OK ATH
    68. Re:BS by NateTech · · Score: 1

      Kinda like "News for Nerds - Stuff that matters"? As if it really does? Most of the nerd-news here is, well... frankly... worthless information... but here we are.

      --
      +++OK ATH
    69. Re:BS by NateTech · · Score: 1

      Everything is inexorably tied to economics, in the end. Some kind of economics. So that "sale" analogy, isn't THAT far off the mark... :-)

      --
      +++OK ATH
    70. Re:BS by NateTech · · Score: 1

      Oh now, now. John Stewart is a dyed-in-the-wool leftist, and says so. Let's not so "fair and balanced" on the topic so that our brains fall out, and we convince ourselves that his views don't color his own show. C'mon.

      --
      +++OK ATH
    71. Re:BS by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      If I remember my history it was the Republicans

      Correct.

      (conservatives)

      Incorrect.

      Republicans of the time were not conservative. By very definition of "conservative", it's when you want things to say the way they are (and for any progress, if happen at all, happen very, very slowly). Since this doesn't quite work when a conservative party comes to power after a progressive one leaves, this is changed slightly to read "things as they were before those hippies mucked with them".

      A party that argued against slavery, and was willing to start a civil war over it, cannot be conservative by the very definition.

    72. Re:BS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While your take on the left/right slant of the papers is fairly accurate (though both papers had writers of each persuasion, and the Post carries Mallard Fillmore to this day), that isn't what did in the News. It was cold-blooded competition, an old-fashioned newspaper war where the last one to die would be the "winner". The Post had deeper pockets and could withstand the economic bloodshed of penny-per-day subscriptions longer than the News could. The article talked about that, but downplayed the importance of the circulation war. When both side had enough, they agreed to the Joint Operating Agreement, and the terms of that agreement made clear who lost the war (no more Sunday News editions, meaning less ad revenue, as the News went on life support for a few years more).

      I'm glad that Gene Amole didn't live to see this.

    73. Re:BS by mdarksbane · · Score: 1

      I guess I know a fair number of urban conservatives who are approaching it more from the "government regulation is making it hard to run my business" direction than what I hear now where I live in the country, where it is more attached to religious tradition and just a general sense of "leave us alone."

      As always, though, YMMV.

    74. Re:BS by Obfuscant · · Score: 1
      And on all the debate shows, CNN brings on people from both sides. You won't see MSNBC do that.

      Nope. Their primetime is made up of people like Olberman and Maddow. Maddow, whose show precedes Olberman, and who feigned surprise at the insulting comments about "the republican's health care plan is for old people to die quickly" from a congressman on the floor, claiming that it was the first time such excess had been uttered by a democrat. She doesn't watch her own network, or even CSPAN, it seems.

      You look at CNN, you see people in the left, right and middle.

      When you are a liberal, everyone who isn't as liberal as you is called "right". That's the only way you can claim CNN has "middle" and "right". No, Wolf Blitzer is not a conservative. Nor is Larry King.

      And anyone who is truly conservative is labeled "wacko right-wing conspiracy theorist" by liberals, because to them, the "right" is anyone just left of center.

    75. Re:BS by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Yes, but no matter how conservative your views are, if you go to the Daily Kos and talk up tax breaks for the rich and cuts in services for the poor and how abortion is evil, you're trolling. No matter if you go to church every Sunday, if you go to an athiest site and tell everybody how they're going to burn in hell, you're trolling. The only reason to do this is to piss people off, and that's the definition of a troll both in the slashdot FAQ and wikipedia's definition.

      If you're at a diverse site, like this one, you can still troll -- just make an anti-tech comment. Trolling's not so much what you say, but where you say it.

      Those "Christian" groups who were disrupting soldiers' burials? Meatspace trolls of the worst kind.

    76. Yes, but no matter how conservative your views are, if you go to the Daily Kos and talk up tax breaks for the rich and cuts in services for the poor and how abortion is evil, you're trolling.

      I disagree. Sometimes you're just trying to have a good discussion with people ho don't agree with you. Your motivation determines if it is trolling, by the definition of trolling. Trolling is rooted in the fishing term. If you trail bait behind you to catch fish, that's different than if you are actually a small fish in the same place. Just because moderators mark you as a troll, does not mean they are correct.

      The only reason to do this is to piss people off...

      Again, I disagree. You will most likely piss people off, but that doesn't mean that's the only reason. Maybe your reason is to convince people to see the error of their ways and help them and society. Usually I doubt this, but that does not mean it never happens.

    77. Sorry it took so long to reply, I have been busy.

      The self righteous sanctimony and distain you have of what is CLEARLY more people than ABC/NBC/CBS and probably CNN combined is interesting.

      This is called "argumentum ad populum" and has been recognized as a logically fallacious argument for thousands of years.

      The point I was making wasn't about the numbers of people, but the Elitism. I wasn't arguing about the popularity being right, I was arguing that your view was one of disdain for a large number of people.

      First, your inference that I am disdainful of them is just that, an inference. It is not what I wrote. Second, you absolutely brought up a majority argument, otherwise you would not have needed to make mention that there were more people, than the viewers of the other programs, just many people. You did commit said logical fallacy.

      No you idiot.

      This is an ad hominem attack. I'm not an idiot for pointing out your grammatical error. I don't normally do so, but it was pertinent as you were bringing up the literacy of others in your argument.

      ...being an ignorant grammar nazi.

      Grammar Nazis are annoying in general, but not ignorant. That's the point. They call out irrelevant ignorance in others, except it was relevant in this case since you were deriding the literacy or a particular group and brought the topic up in the first place.

      Because there is a moderately significant correlation between people who no not pass high school and who vote Republican.

      Citation needed.

      The 1990 Gallup Poll, the last to Pew studies, and the ongoing Berkley demographic statistics project all are in agreement. Mind you, this references high school only, the numbers are actually very interesting because republicans gain a lot ground for people who have associates and bachelor's degree's then drop off again for advanced degrees. But we were talking about basic literacy, which is why I chose the high school numbers. I find the pew data on News program sources posted by IgnoramusMaximus even more illuminating.

      Wait, I got one .... http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/polls/#USP00p1 [cnn.com]

      Wow, where to start. First, an exit poll is not a study. Second, that's a correlation in voting between two candidates, not between parties. Finally, you didn't normalize for percentages of the population that voted for each candidate. If you don't see the problem with your citation then you hopefully failed statistics.

      I could equally say that most uneducated, and under educated minorities vote Democratic, but you'd call that "Racist"...

      You're still pushing the strawman argument hard huh? In the same fashion I guess I could continue to try to reason with you logically, but then you'd claim I was a member of the illuminati who kills babies and you have no proof that I kill babies so your argument fails, idiot.

      or at least no formal education since you seem to be ignoring all the rules needed for a rational and civil discussion.

      Blame it on my Public Education then, okay? My parents weren't rich enough to send me to one of those elite private schools where people can get a "formal" education.

      So what? I went to public schools in a not very affluent area. I had to break up fights between by drink and violent history teacher and fellow classmates. I learned very little from my supposed teachers. That doesn't mean I wear ignorance like a medal. Go read some freaking books on logic and rhetoric or take some classes at a local college. Your education is obviously lacking and if you want to be taken seriously in any discussion amon

  7. Better link by mcgrew · · Score: 0, Redundant

    Here is the actual article. The link from TFS is a short, three paragraphs that don't say anything the summary doesn't.

    TFA, unlike the link from TFS, is actually worth reading.

  8. Trust is your most valuable asset. by girlintraining · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Do you know why people are moving away from traditional media? Because it acts like it's better than we are. Blogging has become popular because it's there in plain english, the way we look at things -- and it's accessible and free. I can share it with my friends instantly -- unlike a newspaper which is physical and takes time. With the digital age, all of my friends are only a few feet away from me most of the time. Cell phones and laptops are like spiders -- there's always one within a few feet of you.

    Traditional media has forgotten that the most important asset they have is trust -- and accessibility. There is still just as much need today to know what's going on in the world now as there was fourty years ago. But most media is awash in a crapflood of advertisements and profit-oriented behavior, which when people see they reflexively numb their senses. Seriously -- hold a normal conversation with someone and in the middle of it toss off a marketing slogan. If they don't strangle you, did you notice they're about half as smart as they were a second ago? They recover, but the momentum in the conversation is now gone. We don't trust traditional media (GenX and GenY) because it's full of crap and irrelevant to our daily lives -- so we blog and we talk to our friends, and they filter stories they find relevant back to us.

    I have friends on facebook that post links of personal interest to their feeds so the rest of us can see and comment on it, and this is the foundation of the new media -- peer relationships. Journalism needs to mesh with this, and the journalists themselves need to get out there and put their reputation on the line in a public and accessible way. I want to 'friend' journalists I like and trust on facebook and then see their stories -- separate from these stupid constricting media websites and the constant crap-flood of advertisements that go with them.

    Okay, but how do the journalists get paid? I mean, it costs them time to do the job, right? I don't have all the answers there, because it's not my industry, but I know that having a hundred friends that listen to me about anything related to computers is worth something. And a lot of people here on slashdot are in the same boat.

    --
    #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    1. Re:Trust is your most valuable asset. by Enderandrew · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Blogs are better for trust?

      Please point me to your collection of honest, fact-based blogs without editorial bias and a full-time staff of fact checkers. I'd honestly love to see them.

      I have no qualms with new media emerging. It is just that all my friends honestly seem to prefer blogs because of their obvious bias.

      --
      http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
    2. Re:Trust is your most valuable asset. by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 1

      Do you know why people are moving away from traditional media? Because it acts like it's better than we are.

      That's a reasonable hypothesis. I can believe that the average person doesn't want news gathered by people with more resources than them then analyzed by experts with more knowledge than they have. Of course the average person wants to marry someone stupider than they are too. So do you have any sort of support for your hypothesis?

      Blogging has become popular because it's there in plain english, the way we look at things -- and it's accessible and free.

      Hmm, I think blogging has become popular partly because it is more similar to the reader than mainstream news is. But I don't think that's really a problem with the writing so much as the opinion and analysis injected. Mainstream news tries to present facts and the whole journalistic model of writing all the writers had to master in school is about presenting those facts without subjective interpretation. People like subjective interpretation. It's a lot easier to form opinions as to how something affects you if someone tells you your opinion instead of you having to think. And since there are so many blogs out there, people can find ones that fit in with their already formed biases. They can read the news, but with everything already interpreted in a slant they like. Are you a neo-nazi survivalist? No problem. Instead of reading the facts about some new law, you can just hear about the parts that seem to confirm you beliefs that the jews are screwing you over and it doesn't matter because a violent anarchistic revolution is coming and your investment of all your money into ammunition and canned food was a good idea. The A to B to C of how a credit card reform bill adds to this situation is already constructed for you and you can parrot it verbatim to your buddies.

      With the digital age, all of my friends are only a few feet away from me most of the time.

      And there's another thing. You can talk to like-minded people on blogs. Your friends can all be on the forums you read and you don't have to talk to all those liberals and blacks at the bar. You can stay home and write to other neo-nazis and you don't have to worry about people telling you you're wrong or an idiot or pointing out your facts are incorrect. Of course obama is half jewish because judaism and islam are really part of the same religion or umm something.

      Traditional media has forgotten that the most important asset they have is trust -- and accessibility.

      And an almost fanatic devotion to the pope? Actually, once you make yourself the "channel" for a subset of people, trust isn't a big issue. You can outright lie to your readers and viewers and people are so emotionally invested in your "team" being the winning one they won't call you on it. It happens regularly.

      I have friends on facebook that post links of personal interest to their feeds so the rest of us can see and comment on it, and this is the foundation of the new media -- peer relationships.

      The issue here being, that is media advertising, or circulation, not the research and creation of original news content and expert analysis.

      Journalism needs to mesh with this, and the journalists themselves need to get out there and put their reputation on the line in a public and accessible way. I want to 'friend' journalists I like and trust on facebook and then see their stories...

      If they're actually presenting subjective news, then the journalist shouldn't be super important, especially compared to the reputation of the publication which vets the articles and makes sure some nutjob isn't making things up. Picking just particular journalists is you self selecting away news you don't want to hear. People already do this to great extent in choosing which newspapers and Websites and TV programs they watch. You're advocatin

    3. Re:Trust is your most valuable asset. by rwv · · Score: 1

      I want to 'friend' journalists I like and trust on facebook and then see their stories

      Facebook is prone to as much advertiser and "Quiz/Game/Application" noise as traditional newspapers. Twitter has a big advantage as long as they maintain the 155 character limit. Those 155 characters are enough for a Headline and a Tinyurl Link. That's your pathway for news.

      Check out a "Green" blog related to local news that targets Morris County, NJ. There are a handful of real, opinionated, intelligent articles that are balanced by these simple Twitter feeds that bring you to other relevant information.

      What I don't understand, while we are on the subject, is "Copy/Paste" journalism. For fucks sake... CNN copies the same spelling and grammar mistakes made by AP/Reuters. Can't they at least get a $10/hr copy editor to screen what they publish? That being said... there is NO VALUE in copying an article and pasting it in your blog. Eventually readers will figure out that you are not a SOURCE of information and they will move elsewhere. The national news sites (CNN, NBC, ABC, Faux News) already provide aggregated world news. Therefore, don't attempt to deliver regurgitated/aggregated news at a local level, unless that news somehow affects the local community.

    4. Re:Trust is your most valuable asset. by Obfuscant · · Score: 1
      I can believe that the average person doesn't want news gathered by people with more resources than them then analyzed by experts with more knowledge than they have.

      If you believe that the journalist writing the stories is an expert in any field in which they write, there is no reason to continue reading your comment. You are patently wrong. They demonstrate this on a daily basis by the errors in their reporting. Talk to anyone who IS an expert in a subject that the journalists cover and see if they don't tell you they see far too many errors.

      It's quite an eye opener, to see an event you are personally involved with covered by "the news", and see how often they get it wrong. And yet, most people who have experienced this STILL believe that the journalists don't get it wrong when reporting other news.

      One of the least valuable interviews our mainstream media produce is when one journalist interviews another journalist, and yet that's what is happening more and more often as the true experts learn not to talk to journalists because they will be misquoted.

    5. Re:Trust is your most valuable asset. by jedidiah · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's not just the pretense.

      Quite often, people with direct knowledge of events or a subject area
      will find that "Journalists" get things terribly wrong. Their view of
      a given field may be woefull out of date or they might put so much
      spin on a set of facts that those that actually present don't recognize
      the situation anymore.

      Once you see this, you quickly lose any trust in journalists.

      Then you continually wonder what else they are leaving out or misrepresenting.

      Journalism has lost most of it's value based on it's originally stated goals.

      If journalists are also "full of themselves" then this probably doesn't help the quality of their output.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    6. Re:Trust is your most valuable asset. by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 1

      I can believe that the average person doesn't want news gathered by people with more resources than them then analyzed by experts with more knowledge than they have.

      If you believe that the journalist writing the stories is an expert in any field in which they write, there is no reason to continue reading your comment.

      Journalists are supposed to be experts on fact gathering and interviewing. Many of them also have knowledge within the field they report on which greatly exceeds that of the average reader.

      You are patently wrong. They demonstrate this on a daily basis by the errors in their reporting. Talk to anyone who IS an expert in a subject that the journalists cover and see if they don't tell you they see far too many errors.

      I don't have to, since I can look to fields where I am an expert myself. Yes, reporters get things wrong. They almost certainly get things wrong more often than experts in the field do, although they may do a better job of communicating accurate facts to normal people than those experts. I've too often seen experts talk directly to normal people and normal people leave with completely wrong ideas because the expert did not know how to properly communicate.

      But that's all beside the point. You see, a journalist may not be an expert in the subject they're writing about, but unless the reader is an expert in every field, they're still several steps up on the average reader. They also have access average readers don't and their facts are checked by another person. All of this provides value.

    7. Re:Trust is your most valuable asset. by Obfuscant · · Score: 1
      Journalists are supposed to be experts on fact gathering and interviewing.

      Yep. That's what they are supposed to be experts in. Not experts in economics, electronics, computer science, farming, business, or any of the other areas in which they ANALYZE the facts and tell us how we should feel about them.

      The comment I was replying to was referring to them as experts in the areas they write about and sarcastically saying that people don't want to hear the opinions of such experts. He's right, I don't want to hear the opinions of faux experts. If I am interested in a topic, I'll get the facts and form my own opinions, thank you very much. At that point, your "journalist" isn't "several steps up" on the reader.

      You see, a journalist may not be an expert in the subject they're writing about, but unless the reader is an expert in every field, they're still several steps up on the average reader.

      Yes, here's the incredible denial, admitting first that we know they aren't experts in fields where we have experience, but assuming they must be getting it right for the fields we don't know personally. I think the simpler explanation is the more correct. They aren't an expert in fields I know how to detect their errors in, so they are most likely not experts in those fields where I can't detect their errors. Whether they write well and communicate those mistakes better than an expert would communicate the truth is a stupid way to judge their accuracy.

      They also have access average readers don't and their facts are checked by another person.

      You HOPE their facts are checked by someone who knows the truth. Most often their facts are checked by an editor who asks "did you get this from more than one person", and when the journalist says "yes", that's the end of the fact checking. The editor doesn't know the facts, he can't "check" them.

      All of this provides value.

      Show me where I said journalists have no value. I said they aren't the experts that they pretend to be, and their analysis is nothing more than their opinion on the matter. When they stick to reporting the facts, ALL of the facts, correctly, they perform their most valuable service. When they start interviewing each other, they lose all credibility.

    8. Re:Trust is your most valuable asset. by Walkingshark · · Score: 1

      Newspapers fired all their full time fact checkers and researchers a long time ago. The reality you perceive has no relation to reality.

      --
      The world you experience is only a close approximation of reality.
    9. Re:Trust is your most valuable asset. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As opposed to preferring your news outlet of choice because of its obvious bias?

      If traditional news were unbiased and well presented and researched I might agree with you. But what they offer instead is sensationalism and hype and very little depth. So why would I want to pay extra for that?

    10. Re:Trust is your most valuable asset. by slodan · · Score: 1

      Media ownership in the United States have undergone a tremendous consolidation since the Telecommunications Act of 1996. Today, the "big six"—Disney, Viacom, News Corp, Time Warner, CBS, and General Electric—own nearly all traditional media outlets. We have less independent and small-market media than ever before.

      I don't know if this is directly related to the decline of traditional media. Like any systemic change, there are probably multiple major factors. However, I think that the decline of good local reporting, the lack of competition, and pro-business self-interested point of view has a significant impact.

    11. Re:Trust is your most valuable asset. by Enderandrew · · Score: 1

      I work for a newspaper. We've had plenty of layoffs, and we'll go down the drain as a typical newspaper. However, we don't touch fact-checkers and researchers because we're hoping to have a second life as a content company. We purchased just about every paper in Nebraska and Iowa and created a news service of our papers. We're already selling content.

      --
      http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
    12. Re:Trust is your most valuable asset. by syousef · · Score: 1

      Please point me to your collection of honest, fact-based blogs without editorial bias and a full-time staff of fact checkers. I'd honestly love to see them.

      You first. Full-time fact checkers without an agenda of their own and editors without bias are like Hobbits. Fictional beings. They all get paid from somewhere and there's always pressure not to bite the hand that feeds you.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    13. Re:Trust is your most valuable asset. by Degrees · · Score: 1

      My home town newspaper long ago switched to hiring high school students in place of long term professionals. They may be paid journalists, but they are so wet behind the ears that the newspaper is a joke. The publisher is vain, too: she loves the SPCA and refuses to publish stories when someone embezzles $50,000 from the local SPCA. They've had embezzlement at least three times that I know of. And the corruption. Dear God how they enable corruption!

      So actually, yeah, I expect that many blogs are more trustworthy.

      --
      "The most sensible request of government we make is not, "Do something!" But "Quit it!"
    14. Re:Trust is your most valuable asset. by NateTech · · Score: 1

      There's one I can think of... factcheck.org -- but even their bias shows through from under their clothes once in a while.

      --
      +++OK ATH
    15. Re:Trust is your most valuable asset. by slipknotts · · Score: 1

      Do you know why people are moving away from traditional media? Because it acts like it's better than we are. Blogging has become popular because it's there in plain english, the way we look at things -- and it's accessible and free. I can share it with my friends instantly -- unlike a newspaper which is physical and takes time.

      Mostly true, but not entirely. The Times here is still a makeshift umbrella, but the PI went all online at least a year ago and it reaches a sufficient level of geekdom. Connects to Facebook, Twitter, various Blogs, etc. And has a fairly friendly and accessible layout - not to mention FREE.

      Here, take a look

      But I will always have a soft spot in my heart for black ink on my fingers leaving, have to fold it up at least 3 different ways a half dozen times reading, and it's now all over the sidewalk because the winds blowing - have it in my hands newspaper. Mostly because, you know, it rains a lot here in the NW and they make great disposable umbrellas! ;^)

      --
      "What [the hell] is a Jiggawatt???" -- Marty McFly
  9. Rocky Mountain by Idiomatick · · Score: 1

    I bet Rock Mountain Bank just gave away their info and someone robbed them, case closed.

  10. Hindsight is 20/20 by BadAnalogyGuy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    There are a handful of leader-types.

    - The conservative (like this guy). He understands his company's strengths only as a function of what it currently is. He can fortify the company's business in good times.

    - The forward-thinker (like *gack* Larry Ellison). He understands not only his own company's strengths in regard to what it is, but also in regards to the changing environment. He can take action to position the company well for the future.

    - The visionary (like Steve Jobs or Sergey Brin). He understands both his company and the changing environment and can perceive the changes within the changing environment. He is able to not only strengthen the core competences of his company but drive new business and create new markets.

    - The idiot (like Woz (sorry)). They grab on to anything that looks like a good idea and drive it forward without care for business, competition, longevity.

    What happens is that every once in a while the idiot will strike it big (Jeff Bezos). Most of the time, these guys go out of business. On the other hand, the conservative leaders will do what they can and most of the time it pays off. Markets really don't change very much, and there will always be winners and losers. All they need to do is try to stay on the winning side as much as possible.

    But RMN stuck to what it knew and failed. This is what happens in business. But to look back now and to analyze the failure is a lot of Monday morning quarterbacking. Of course it's easy to see all the trends after they've passed. It's easy to see where mistakes were made and how easily it probably could have been to avoid them. But at the time it would have been much more difficult to make the same judgment call.

    It was a failure of management to fail to adapt to the changing business environment, but not every leader is going to be a forward thinker and even fewer will be visionaries. You can academically analyze these business cases from now to eternity, but unless you're actually in the leadership chair at the moment of crisis, you'll never know whether you would make the right choice.

    1. Re:Hindsight is 20/20 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not hard to see where your username came from, certainly...

    2. Re:Hindsight is 20/20 by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 1

      What happens is that every once in a while the idiot will strike it big (Jeff Bezos).

      Bezos strikes me as more of a conservative/forward thinker - he spotted a market hole and exploited it, then expanded it to leverage item identity and third parties, and it worked. Sure, then e3 stuff is a little goofy, but there's only so much you can do with the model of 'sell stuff online'. Also, the focus on durable competitive advantage is anything but stupid.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    3. Re:Hindsight is 20/20 by NateTech · · Score: 1

      I think the over-generalization here is a bit misleading. Let's use your (controversial, but no big deal) analogy with Steve vs. Woz.

      Woz might not be a great BUSINESS person. But Steve couldn't engineer a circuit to save his ass.

      You needed BOTH to start the company. Once Steve had other talented Engineers following him, then he no longer needed Woz.

      But up until that point, he needed someone to do the hard work that he didn't know how to do. And if he didn't have Woz, he wouldn't have gone anywhere.

      The beginning is often the hardest.

      --
      +++OK ATH
    4. Re:Hindsight is 20/20 by NateTech · · Score: 1

      And the e3 stuff came along late enough that you know it probably wasn't Bezo's idea to begin with. Someone pitched that silliness to him in a conference room somewhere, complete with PowerPoint slides.

      --
      +++OK ATH
    5. Re:Hindsight is 20/20 by haruharaharu · · Score: 1

      It feels more like an attempt to expand into new markets while leveraging existing tech.

      --
      Reboot macht Frei.
    6. Re:Hindsight is 20/20 by NateTech · · Score: 1

      Yeah, could be. Not exactly their original/core business... just a sideshow, revenue-wise.

      --
      +++OK ATH
  11. Community is the asset by gravos · · Score: 1

    the community of people who read the paper were the organizations true main asset

    Bingo. The same is true of many types of businesses including big blogs and sites like Slashdot. Marketers usually understand this, but it's an easy point to miss.

    1. Re:Community is the asset by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      the community of people who read the paper were the organizations true main asset

      Marketers usually understand this

      Considering the marketers making annoying ads, marketers using 1/3 of the TV screen to show an ad while the program itself you're trying to watch is on the other 2/3 of the screen, considering this marketing campaign by Microsoft, I'm going to have to say [citation needed].

  12. Newspaper Value by colganc · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The main value in newspapers previously was their distribution network. They had a system in place to distribute information. Radio, TV, and the internet all compete with them for information systems. Each one added more competition, lower latency, and broader reach. In short they provided better value. A daily delivery of dead tree is a non-optimal delivery system. It is getting boring hearing about newspapers and TV news dieing. Why care? The replacement is here. It is better, faster, cheaper. It is the internet.

    1. Re:Newspaper Value by Rob+Riggs · · Score: 2, Insightful

      They should have gone weekly, focusing on Denver, Colorado, and Western US interests in the same way that Time/Newsweek/et al focus on US national interests. No one owns that market (yet) and there are enough folks that would pay for it. They could have been a mainstream Westword and people would have continued to pay for it. It would not succeed as a daily. A daily just isn't needed. I doubt the Denver Post is going to last more than a few more years.

      --
      the growth in cynicism and rebellion has not been without cause
    2. Re:Newspaper Value by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But with a newspaper, I can light my charcoal.

    3. Re:Newspaper Value by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sadly, that is my only use for them as well. But I have a supply of them from my parents. The few times I have gotten a paper in the past year was for the rummage sale listings my wife wanted. Local news is the only reason to get the newspaper otherwise. In smaller towns where Internet-based coverage of the local events are lacking, the local newspaper holds on for the moment.

    4. Re:Newspaper Value by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I thought the main value was for putting under the bird cage. My parrot really loves shredding the Philadelphia Inquirer, apparently it's highest use...

    5. Re:Newspaper Value by Winckle · · Score: 1

      finger slipped and moderated redundant, posting to remove moderation

  13. News of my death have been greatly... by rcolbert · · Score: 1, Funny

    ...well, you know. Hey, I'm a big fan of print newspapers. In fact, when I subscribed to the Wall Street Journal Online, they included a handy print copy for me 6 days of the week. Now, of course the print copy is always a day behind what I've already read online. However, just the other day I sold a few items on eBay, and without my print copy handy, I likely would have had to dole out some serious cheddar on bubble-wrap. True story.

  14. The times. Not just a newspaper thing. by NoYob · · Score: 3, Interesting

    We're in a unique part of history where there is a huge upheaval in technology - mostly centered around computing. Newspapers are biting the dust, film cameras are biting the dust - digital cameras are basically computers with lenses; new weapons are being developed and I'm sure in my lifetime, guns that use gun powder and bullets will not be used by modern militaries; music playing and purchases is changing dramatically; and there's more. Sure, many of those old technologies will probably stay around, but they won't be mainstream: they'll be something that hobbiests use. There will be a few folks who still use film cameras and there will be a few niche camera producers that will still make the camera, film and supplies. There will still be gun makers for those that still or have to keep using gun powder - or the government will outlaw the new weapons for civilian use. And there may be some traditional newspapers around here and there. But the thing is, things are changing at a fast pace now and eventually will slow down. If you look at progress throughout history there are times where their are huge leaps and changes and then things fo back to a baseline of progress. Some past examples: the Industrial Revolution and the Renaissance,

    --
    It's NOT me! It's the meds! I'm on 1000mg of Fukitol.
    1. Re:The times. Not just a newspaper thing. by Enderandrew · · Score: 1

      I work for a newspaper that is circling the drain. When I was hired, a VP (who later became our new CEO and Publisher) spoke to us and said that since radio and TV didn't kill the newspaper, then we shouldn't take the internet as a serious threat.

      In reality, both radio and TV provided immediate news, but people still enjoyed turning to the morning paper for more in-depth coverage that neither radio nor TV seemed to provide. The internet was a different beast. It provided immediacy, in-depth coverage, and also allowed the end user to more easily and directly voice their opinions.

      Print media was so naive, and arrogant that they refused to change until it was too late. Even now, most print media hasn't realized the err of their ways. I suggested in a meeting with our VP of Content Initiatives that we should do live chats, original video, blogs, user comments on stories, running diaries, etc. and was scoffed at.

      Today, we have implemented all of those things except running diaries, but only after the paper started circling the drain.

      --
      http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
    2. Re:The times. Not just a newspaper thing. by nine-times · · Score: 1

      We're in a unique part of history where there is a huge upheaval in technology - mostly centered around computing

      I'm not sure it's quite unique. Yes, it's unique in the sense that every event in history is unique-- it will never happen again quite the same way. However, there have been social/economic upheavals due to new technology before. Even something as simple as the adoption of iron for making tools and weapons instead of bronze brought an enormous impact. The printing press made books available to pretty much anyone. Recorded audio and video has had a big impact in the last century.

      So I guess you could say the introduction of computers and the Internet are "unique", just as the printing press was a unique point in history. But this sort of upheaval caused by new technology has happened before, and will probably happen again.

    3. Re:The times. Not just a newspaper thing. by 4D6963 · · Score: 1

      guns that use gun powder and bullets will not be used by modern militaries

      I don't see why you say that. Surely I can picture tiny hovering drones shooting bad guys/machinery with bullets, but I don't see why the bullets would have to go. If you want to physically damage something at a distance that's still the best thing. See, the current trend (can't speak of for a few decades from now) is all in the information technology. Cars still guzzle gas, the biggest change they're experiencing is the electronics/computers that change/allow a big number of things, old military aircrafts are fitted with new electronics/radars/computers that give them a new edge (for example seeing through your cockpit and firing a missile at a guy who's not even in front of you), soldiers still use guns from World War I, but their new edge comes from their new sensors/communication equipment/etc.

      Besides this is all quite transient and or current information technology revolution isn't going to last forever (unless you're a disciple of Kurzweil). As a matter of fact I'd bet that we're about halfway into it, by that I mean you won't see much more change coming directly out of it than you've seen since 40 years ago. Later in the future surely an other wave of progress will come about, and who knows maybe we'll get much more efficient sources of energy or propulsion that will bring about the flying car, quick travel to Mars and peace and prosperity in Africa.

      --
      You just got troll'd!
    4. Re:The times. Not just a newspaper thing. by R2.0 · · Score: 1

      "guns that use gun powder and bullets will not be used by modern militaries; "

      Don't be so sure. At its root, a gun is a device that exists "here", but has an effect "there". In order for that to happen, you need energy, and lots of it. And currently only chemical reactions provide the energy density needed for the weapon system to be small enough to be useful. The materials and methods may change, and are - electrical priming, caseless ammunition, exotic materials - but until we can find something with a higher energy density, we're still going to be using a chemical reaction to impart energy to an object, which transfers that energy to a target. Or uses it to deliver a payload.

      --
      "As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
    5. Re:The times. Not just a newspaper thing. by NateTech · · Score: 1

      Turning enemies to red jello with flying lead isn't exactly out of style yet.

      --
      +++OK ATH
    6. Re:The times. Not just a newspaper thing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sure in my lifetime, guns that use gun powder and bullets will not be used by modern militaries...

      HUDSON: What're we supposed to use, man? Harsh language?

  15. hiya Mr Murdoch! by fireylord · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    can someone please mod Rupert's Astroturfing down, it's making me nauseous

  16. simpler reason based on ad revenues by peter303 · · Score: 1

    After the Rocky Mountain News merged operations (printing, delivery, offices) with the rival Denver Post, the Rocky got the Saturday edition and the Post the Sunday edition. Saturday is the big car-ad day, while Sunday is houses and department stores. Car ads migrated to web sites more easily and dropped faster. The real estate cabal still limits how much information the general public can find about houses on the web.

    1. Re:simpler reason based on ad revenues by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But that argument doesn't work. Under the terms of the joint operating agreement, the two parent companies split the total ad revenue after operating expenses, no matter what day it was for. They had the same amount to spend on their newsrooms.
      --linda seebach (at the Rocky 1997-2007)

      (Retired Rocky writer)

  17. On point 3. by Shivetya · · Score: 1

    The AJC is trying their best here in Atlanta to prove the point, that they are out of touch with their readers.

    Case in point, earlier in the year they were looking for a "conservative" writer and asked for opinions. Needless to say they struck down most of the suggestions. All the while claiming they wanted to present all views they were damn sure well not going to allow certain people to express them.

    The best summary of just how bad the AJC was, their former editor of the opinion page moved to Washington DC to report directly on how such an amazing election and person will affect Georgia, I kid you not.

    and these people wonder why those in the suburbs rarely subscribe.

    --
    * Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
  18. They would have failed anyway by bzzfzz · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I read TFA (more specifically the speech transcript) and I don't believe that the Rocky Mountain News would have been much better off even if they did everything right. There aren't any city-specific news web sites out there that are making anything like the kind of money that newspapers made in their heyday. Like the buggy whips, the telegraph industry, and home coal delivery the business is gone and the new industry that is replacing it is too far removed for a transition to be possible.

    1. Re:They would have failed anyway by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      There aren't any city-specific news web sites out there that are making anything like the kind of money that newspapers made in their heyday.

      The question is - why not? A newspaper's primary revenue stream comes from advertisers, so why aren't online editions making as much as paper editions?

      Are there fewer "eyeballs" out there to read the advertising? No, actually, by going online you increase your readership.

      So the only answer is that advertisers aren't willing to pay as much per reader for online editions as they are for dead-tree editions. But that just raises the question: why are online advertisements worth less than printed ones?

      If we assume that the goal of advertisements is to raise awareness of products, then each pair of "eyeballs" should be worth the same, regardless of whether they're viewing the ad on a piece of paper, or on a computer screen. So the question then becomes

      Are online editions charging too little for advertisements, or are dead-tree advertisers charging too much?

      Either advertisers have realized they were being gouged by newspapers (which means that if the internet were to go away tomorrow, newspapers would still be in the same situation they are now), or newspapers need to charge more for advertising in online editions.

    2. Re:They would have failed anyway by turtleshadow · · Score: 1

      Now its up to the Post to fail in the same way.
      Both the DP & RMN were overspecialized and did not really promote a culture of journalism in the region.

      Both backed off stories of importance in seeking short team profit gains from info-tainment.

      I only cite one example of why most news outlets are failing in Denver.
      $117k was stolen by cyber-criminals from stanford school district in an obscure corner of Colorado.
      It was up to the Washington post -- covering a story about money mules to break this good news to the citizens of Colorado.

      There is not very good basic gumshoe journalism left in Denver, Colorado or much of the USA.
      RMN & DP are good about reading police blotters and picking up AP wire but real stories that need to be investigated seem to be beyond their scope.

      Perhaps the good journalists will go to Huffingtonpost and evolve to superbloggers

    3. Re:They would have failed anyway by innocent_white_lamb · · Score: 1

      Are online editions charging too little for advertisements, or are dead-tree advertisers charging too much?
       
      This is based on perceived value versus actual value. For another example, see diamonds. A diamond has a great perceived value (in the thousands of dollars) but what is its actual value? It's just a pretty stone that may also have some industrial uses -- is that actually worth thousands of dollars?
       
      Advertisers can hold a printed ad in their hand and see stacks of the printed material sitting in the back of a truck and on a street corner. They can't see that same "stack" online. Five Hundred Thousand Copies is a lot more impressive when viewed on pallets than it is when viewed as a simple number on a single line of an invoice for online services.
       
      So the printed ad has a greater value as perceived by both the seller (publisher) and the customer (advertiser), therefore it can be sold for a higher price.
       
      Effectiveness, on the other hand, is almost impossible to measure accurately and therefore has little or no perceived value, so that doesn't factor into the price that advertisers are willing to pay for an online ad.
       
      Perception and appearance are very important. A warehouse full of papers looks a lot more impressive, therefore it must be worth more money than something that can't be seen filling that warehouse.
       
      This is not a new problem. The 19th century merchant John Wanamaker said ""Half the money I spend on advertising is wasted; the trouble is I don't know which half."
       
      We still haven't managed to figure it out in a reliable and accurate way.

      --
      If you're a zombie and you know it, bite your friend!
  19. What Rocky Mountain News had going for them.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    From a printing standpoint - they had a newspaper that was printed and folded in a book format - so you could grab a copy, open and read like a book without having to pull sections out etc. Something which I thought was unique at the time (compared to other newspapers in the area). Personally I had purchased more copies of the Rocky Mountain News due to this factor alone... which made reading the paper experience a little more convenient.

  20. It IS NOT about "community" by realmolo · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Dead-tree newspapers are dying for one simple reason: All the news anyone could ever want is available for free on the internet. Just a Google search away. The whole idea that a newspaper can survive by catering to the "community" (either in real-life or online) is stupid. It's something to make the investors/owners feel better as their doom inevitably approaches.

    I've thought about it a lot, and I don't think there is any workable "defense" against free news sites. The newspapers are all going to die, or at the very least, shrink radically. Even if they start really producing some great, exclusive content, it isn't going to help for long, and it isn't going to help them regain their fortunes.

    The news world has changed.

    1. Re:It IS NOT about "community" by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Dead-tree newspapers are dying for one simple reason: All the news anyone could ever want is available for free on the internet. Just a Google search away.

      I disagree with this statement. For world news and events, this is largely true at present - but largely because Google (and others) are pulling info from the online content offered by "dead tree" newspapers, IMO. But the thing we're currently losing when a newspaper dies is good local news and reporting. Amateur bloggers simply don't cut it. Twitter doesn't cut it. Look at the crap that was all over Twitter during the terrorist attacks in Mumbai, for instance - the noise (incorrect information, incorrect speculation, plus repeaters) overwhelmed any real news content (and it's not like you could really tell the difference between facts and fantasy from half a world away).

      Quality content requires some sort of editorial presence at some level.

      Thing is, the newspapers are mostly doing a piss-poor job of adapting to the new online reality. I'm sure once they all die people will notice the void, and because of that eventually that void will get filled.

      --
      #DeleteChrome
    2. Re:It IS NOT about "community" by BobMcD · · Score: 2, Interesting

      And I disagree with both of you! And I also agree with both of you!

      We're not only seeing the death of local news, but there is also as strong desire amongst our youth to kill off any other type of local community simultaneously.

      They don't want to be just a part of their own local small town. The internet has shown them they can participate in the global community. Local things seem irrelevant to them, and that irrelevance boosts their ego.

      All the news anyone could ever want is available for free on the internet...

      ...because I don't care about local events.

      This isn't about crap and noise. It is about the change in scope of the community.

      The market is ripe for a brand new solution.

    3. Re:It IS NOT about "community" by superdana · · Score: 1, Insightful

      All the news anyone could ever want is available for free on the internet. Just a Google search away.

      And who do you suppose is writing that news? While I strongly believe that the newspaper industry is unsustainable in its present form, the news does not write itself. We will always need professional journalists, and there will always be a demand for local news. The newspaper industry as we know it may very well collapse. But in doing so, it will only be making room for a new generation of professional journalism that can exist within the boundaries of the world today. Think of it as the business equivalent of a forest fire.

  21. blogging wastes my time by peter303 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I prefer to get news from edited sources. There might be some fact checking then, less bias, and better writing in most cases. Blogging tends to be more like newspaper columns where assume a certain bias and literary style in whom you chode to read.

    1. Re:blogging wastes my time by the_womble · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So why do these edited sources keep making factual mistakes, write misleading stories, bury stories that do not suit their political line etc?

      Read Reuters for neutral factual coverage and blogs for opinion and analysis. That said I do read a few newspapers and the BBC online.

    2. Re:blogging wastes my time by 0123456 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      There might be some fact checking then

      But probably won't be. Almost every news story I've been involved with -- either directly, by knowing some of the people involved, or by understanding the technology or science they're reporting on -- has been sensationalist garbage which bears little resemblance to the facts.

      I find far more facts and better analysis of them on blogs than in mainstream media.

      Blogging tends to be more like newspaper columns where assume a certain bias and literary style in whom you chode to read.

      Sorry, but if you think that newspapers are unbiased, I have a bridge you might like to buy.

    3. Re:blogging wastes my time by NateTech · · Score: 1

      I think it's good to read both edited and unedited commentary, but those who don't understand the difference are a bit scary when they start quoting some blogger's "facts"...

      --
      +++OK ATH
  22. MOD PARENT UP INSIGHTFUL by PRMan · · Score: 1

    This is the most succinct description of the problem that I have read.

    --
    Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
  23. Marketing 101: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Marketing 101:

    Define your company based on the needs of your customers that you are satisfying, not on what you do.

    Sorry, this is the first day of first year marketing. If you don't know this, you deserve to go out of business.

    1. Re:Marketing 101: by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

      already have a degree in that

      --
      -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
  24. Re:Rocky Mountain Oysters by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Caution: Do not eat the Rocky Mountain Oysters.
    (Hint: They're not shellfish.)

    MmmmooooOooo!

  25. Newspapers didn't die because they were primitive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    They big argument against newspapers on Slashdot is this perception that they are low tech. I know personally the reason I stopped reading a daily paper had nothing to do with the internet. I stopped years before the internet got relevant for a few good reasons. First was far too many ads. In a major city like LA or New York you got a daily paper the size of a small phone book for a handful of stories you actually wanted to read with the bulk of it being ads. The Sunday papers were even worse. Also newspapers were where you went to get the whole story and not the fluff you tended to get through television. That changed and the quality of stories and reporting dropped like a rock. I saw it happen early on with my hometown paper, I come from a very small town. Back in the day they covered national news stories but by the end they were more like a high school paper. I found gradually with the newspapers I was reading the relevant stories got rarer and rarer and the quality of the information wasn't as good as I was getting on the evening news. I often found there were no more than two or three stories that interested me and some times there were none. The internet was the death blow for the papers but they were weakened before the internet came along. The decline was apparent back in the 80s and revenues have been falling for 20 years or more. The reasons for the decline are hard to put a finger on because blaming even TV doesn't make much sense because TV news was decades old when the newspapers started their fall from grace. In the end it may be more the newspaper's fault than technology itself. Focusing more on ad revenue and not on news itself weakened them and made them open for failure. Once they were the only source of news, then they were still the best source of news and finally the became a poor source of news. Their final death blow was easily available news and the need for news on demand but those things weren't the root cause of the newspaper's fall from grace. Most people on the site probably don't remember a time when newspapers were your primary source of news. Most thing things are better now but the truth is the quality of news is appalling. Things have gotten so bad most consider blogs a source of news, they don't in any way report news they are purely predigested information and mostly opinion and not news. There are no standards for blogs. Even web sites like CNN are shockingly bad. It's hard to find an article without typos. In an age of spell checkers they actually post most stories with typos. That's beyond embarassing. In the old news days a single miss-spelled word or mistake in a story was a black mark for an editor. On line news is largely free of editorial oversight. The death of newspapers shouldn't be celibrated but mourned. TV news has become news bunnies and male models and on-line news is so chaotic that there's no way to separate fact from fiction. The death of newspapers is in some ways the death of news.

  26. Papers Still Strong in Canada by kitezh · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Is this problem with traditional newspaper a US-only phenomenon? I heard yesterday of a recent study of newspapers in Canada which actually showed growth in their industry. What do others see in their country?

    1. Re:Papers Still Strong in Canada by kitezh · · Score: 2, Informative
    2. Re:Papers Still Strong in Canada by iamhigh · · Score: 1

      That's simply due to the available medium... if the Yukon Quest didn't have such high latency, more people would probably use digital news sources.

      --
      No comprende? Let me type that a little slower for you...
    3. Re:Papers Still Strong in Canada by nine-times · · Score: 1

      I also read something fairly recently (though I can't remember where or find it again) that said a lot of newspapers started doing better when they were recently revamped. They modernized their design to make them more appealing and easier to read, easier to find what you were looking for, etc. Some of it was just making the things prettier, but it was also about reevaluating the organization, structure, and layout to make them more accessible and pleasant to read.

      So it at least raises the question whether people won't buy newspapers at all anymore, or whether newspapers are just doing a bad job going after their audience.

    4. Re:Papers Still Strong in Canada by ChocoBean · · Score: 1

      interesting article...
      I wouldn't be surprised to find the news reading rate to have strong correlations to the literacy rate...

      although I also recently read an article talking about the decline of the printed news industry in Taiwan, and they are very much a reading culture... (http://www.nownews.com/2009/09/07/142-2502353.htm --in chinese)

  27. All ink on paper printing is the same way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In the USA you have three major players and a who lot of little guys all fighting over the same pie. The big guy's strategy is to buy up the little guys and the little guys just duke it out until there is one per area. Then they start all over as the number of jobs in the service are shrinks and they need to expand. Eventually there will only be two huge printers specializing in one-to-one mailings and labels and a whole lot of little mom-and-pop copy shops running presentations, reports, and books. At the end there will be nothing and the end is near, brother.

  28. You get what you pay for... by dtolman · · Score: 4, Interesting

    That is true for both the time your paying for and the money you are asked to pay.

    A blog dashed off in a few minutes (or hours), will never compare to the in-depth reporting that most newspapers still actually deliver. For that I'm willing to pay (and do).

    If newspapers ever died, they would drag all the other mediums that have news down with it... most tv/cable/radio/internet copy I've ever seen is lifted from an old dead tree newspaper.

    Not to mention - some of us LIKE real news. You know, stuff that isn't about sports, or celebrities, or the horoscope, or the comics, or crap like that. The only hard news you get out of blog posts are just glorified wire reports - sure I can find out about big events like an earthquake, but where am I going to find out about corruption in China? Or inflation in Zimbabwe? Stuff that is ongoing, slow, and less sexy - that require coverage over years. Cable news gave up stories like that a long time ago - all that's left for that in the US is PBS, NPR, and the big print (NY Times, WSJ, etc).

    Interestingly - I have noticed that some print media is doing well (at least round me), the hyper-local weeklies that cover individual towns and villages in my area (as opposed to the area at large). Another area completely un-served by the web.

    1. Re:You get what you pay for... by Geminii · · Score: 1
      Not to mention - some of us LIKE real news. You know, stuff that isn't about sports, or celebrities, or the horoscope, or the comics, or crap like that.

      Picked up a national newspaper recently? Pull out the stuff you mentioned above, and the advertising, and how many column inches are actually left?

      One of the things which always bugged me about newspapers, even before I first got on the net, was the sheer percentage of space devoted to advertising. And it wasn't even politely tidied away in its own section where it could be ignored. A page might have two column inches of story and I'd be trying to read it while the entire rest of the page was screaming "BUY WHIZZO COLA!" and "BUY KLEENO WASHING POWDER!"

      There's a well-known state-level paper where I live which has been around for 176 years. I don't read it any more. Haven't for years. I got a cold-call the other day asking whether I'd be interested in a discounted subscription. I just said "I have internet," and the caller sort of collapsed. Couldn't even come up with a single reason for me to buy the paper. They could at least have asked if I owned a parakeet.

    2. Re:You get what you pay for... by dtolman · · Score: 1

      Eh - the ads are easy to ignore... sometimes they are actually amusing on their own (petition for something stupid? Gotta read that closely). As for content... thumbing through today's NY times, I see 30-40 pages of content, not even counting the weekly lifestyle sections (which, hypocrite that I am, I still skim through since its right in front of me).

      People may mock the Times, but I don't see anyone else in the US covering Heroin sales in SE Asia (today's International section top story). Between that and my local weekly, I usually feel fairly well informed.

  29. No; patently wrong by WindBourne · · Score: 2, Informative

    RMN and DP had issues years ago, so what happened is that they combined the printing/marketing/ads together. It allowed the news portion to compete while it supposedly lowered their costs (obviously not).

    You will see that they are owned by 2 different companies:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Denver_Post
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocky_Mountain_News

    RMN died because DP outlasted them. DP is in serious trouble as well. Neither of them had a clue about how to make money except on print.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    1. Re:No; patently wrong by rwade · · Score: 1

      Mod parent up -- this is absolutely correct. Scripps' Rocky Mountain News and MediaNews' Denver Post entered into a joint venture, the Denver Newspaper Agency, through which they combined circulation and advertising operations and shared an office building.

    2. Re:No; patently wrong by NateTech · · Score: 1

      The "sad" part is the history lost in losing the RMN. I have personally held RMN Edition #1 in my hands (inside plastic), and I assume it's still in the vault at the Denver Public Library. The stories about how the paper itself got started in early Denver are quite interesting, Byers was a crazed man. (First edition was printed on butcher paper to beat his competitor to the street, which was a bet Byers made with him... Whoever published first, got to stay. The other guy had to shut down and head back to the Kansas Territories. Ironic that another paper beat out RMN at the end...)

      --
      +++OK ATH
  30. Almost never read the paper. by Jason+Levine · · Score: 1

    I used to read the paper every day. I had a ritual: Comics first followed by editorials, national/world news and then local news.

    Then I began reading my comics online. You can get all of the major newspaper comics for free online via comics.com or gocomics.com. Then, of course, there are tons of great Web Comics authors that don't appear in the papers. I'm definitely reading more comics now than I ever did during my paper reading days.

    For editorials/opinions, nowadays, I end up going to blogs. By reading various blogs, I can get a wide range of opinions on a subject. Heck, even social networking sites like Twitter are good for this. Though the opinions might be only 140 characters long (or might be a link to a longer opinion), I get opinions from many more people than just my local newspaper's staff.

    For national/world news and local news I browse Google News and some local blogs. Again, I get many more stories than my local paper would usually print.

    In the end, the only thing I really keep my subscription for is the Sunday ads/coupons. I know I can get the ads online, but it winds up being easier to get them in one easy to flip through pile. And electronic coupons exist, but haven't overtaken newspaper coupons just yet.

    We get our paper on Thursday through Sunday only because the paper gave us Thursdays and Fridays free. Otherwise, we'd be down to weekends only. (Sundays only didn't save that much money.) However, if we could buy a "weekly ads and coupons only" packet instead of having our paper subscription, we definitely would!

    --
    My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
  31. Hey, give us time! by Wee · · Score: 1

    We're new at this socialism thing, man. But we're trying to get up to speed as fast as we can by the looks of things.

    -B

    --

    Ash and Hickory, straight-grained and true, make excellent bludgeons, dandy for the cudgeling of vegetarians.

    1. Re:Hey, give us time! by canadian_right · · Score: 1

      The usa has had socialism for schools, medical care, fire fighting, justice, police, military, and roads for quite some time. The word "socialist" is simply being used as a scare tactic by the far right. You have lots of practise with socialism, it is just that a lot of you don't want to admit it.

      --
      Anarchists never rule
  32. Not much "News" in a Newspaper any more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Take any daily paper, from any city in the U.S. and measure how many column inches are actual news articles.... now subtract the number of inches that are from A.P. or direct pulls/quotes from other news papers, blogs or web sites, leaving only the news actually written reporters employed at that paper. Is that number greater then zero? If not - enough said, but if it IS some real content, do the same thing from the same newspaper, but from an edition from 10 years ago....then 10 years prior to that...notice a trend?

  33. Let me make this clear: by Darth_brooks · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "There was little effort to figure out how to better enable a community, or any recognition that the community of people who read the paper were the organizations true main asset...."

    Let me make this abundantly clear: The above statement is 100% bullshit. My local paper, the Ann Arbor News, also went tits up. Over the last two years, the paper had opened comments sections on the majority of its stories to enable the aforementioned pipe dream. End result? The trolls moved in and feasted like rats in a corn silo, the nut jobs flooded the forums with "facts" on every story from free republic and the knock offs, and the signal to noise ratio plummeted. Now the paper has relaunched as annarbor.com, and the solution to the above has become: censor comments, and allow the newspaper staff to wade right into the thick of the mud. Fantastic.

    When I see what has happened to old media sites that get into "Web 2.0" I feel like a WW1 vet being told by a fresh out of west point grad that "trench warfare 2.0 will revolutionize war as we know it!"

    I don't really *want* to engage with the community when I go hunting for local "news", I don't *want* to hear from the friend of the victims brother-in-law who got arrested for B&E two blocks from my house. And most of all I don't want the most most useless section of the newspaper (Op-ed) to become the foundation of our "new media." Report, and leave me to use my gray matter to formulate my own opinions. If I'm at the site, the I'm there because I want local news. Period. Well researched, well reported, well digested, local news. It doesn't exist on TV anymore, i don't think it will ever exist on the web.

    --
    There are some people that if they don't know, you can't tell 'em.
  34. extending your observation by circletimessquare · · Score: 2, Interesting

    the very concept of "the news" (as opposed to the olds?) is philosophically a liberal phenomenon

    if liberalism is change and conservatism is stasis, you can make the easy deduction that a system in stasis generates no news: nothing changes, so there is nothing to communicate or talk about anything that is "new"

    so indeed, the entirety of news generation is entirely the realm of liberalism. even fox news, through the simple act of giving voice to something changing out there in the world, is in the service of liberalism. no matter what the propagandistic slant, merely giving attention to some process of change makes people think about the subject matter, and therefore at least begin the cognitive process of acquiescence to and understanding of change that is necessary, even if they don't like the change

    in fact, the most socially conservative groups in this world are distinguished by a conscious effort to protect themselves from "the news": the amish, hasidic groups, funamentalist religious cults in a compound out in the woods... they all wall themselves out from the world, the larger society that is undergoing the healthy, liberalizing processes of change

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
  35. Stop Diluting Our Terminology by Cyner · · Score: 1

    Running your business like it's 30 years ago is not a Legacy Issue. It's just plain stupidity, you'll find it in plenty of businesses, and the business doesn't have to be 30 years old to have someone at the helm who wants to run it that way.

    A legacy issue is having to support customers (or vendors) who insist doing things the same way they did 30 years ago. The reason this news paper failed was they they were the "Legacy Issue" to their customers; hence they were replaced.

    --
    FreeBSD.org - The power to serve
  36. That's not REAL news by pnuema · · Score: 2, Insightful
    That's polished news - news that appears well researched, articles that are well written. I'm not sure what your experience has been, but every news story I've ever been even tangentially involved in has been hopelessly wrong on many counts.

    Blogs are all about the comments. Yes, it may start with a wire feed. But soon after, you'll get a post from someone who is much closer to the situation than the original poster, who can share real insight on the topic. Then someone else with familiarity comes and corrects a piece that the knowledgeable commenter got wrong. As the comments on a well-read blog build, the real story emerges. THAT is real news - input from dozens of intimate sources, aggregated into a whole. Figuring out what is really happening takes effort - but a good blog can do the work that a single reporter would take months to do in just a few hours.

    For example, it was reported a couple of days ago that the public option was defeated in the finance committee. Major news sources pushed it as a real story, when the truth was it was known by insiders that the public option was never going to come out of Finance for weeks or months. There are 4 other committees in the senate that have passed bills with the public option in it. Bloggers on sites like Dailykos can give you all the inside baseball of what is happening with health care reform, far better than any of the main stream media.

    1. Re:That's not REAL news by dtolman · · Score: 2, Interesting

      So... is it snooty of me that I like my articles to be well researched and polished? Do they get stuff wrong - sure - but I'm not expecting the Truth with a capital T and without mistakes. I do expect them to catch the mistakes (eventually) and let me know when they do. But they don't tend to fuck up the in depth stuff, and thats what I like.

      As for comments... are we talking about the DailyKos site where I have to wade through so much ignorance, posturing, pomposity, and outright shit, that I feel like I have to shower after I read through the comments section (and thats just on the stories where I agree with with their slanted view)? That's the future?

      The internet is fine for opinion - even expert opinion - if you know where to go. Or for hyper-detailed analysis of crap only a few care about, but passionately (the ongoing hour-by-hour progress of the new World Trade Center construction in NY for example).

      But where can I find a single place, where someone will inform me of interesting things, without me having to wade through the crap and "edit" it myself? Not to mention the in depth coverage of things that are important, but not sexy, and slow moving to boot?

      Where is the internet equivalent of NPR? Or PBS/Frontline? Or the NY Times international section. Or the Wall Street Journal business section? So far - its the websites of those respective organizations...

    2. Re:That's not REAL news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      APM/PRI/NPR and PBS are all online and doing, as far as I can tell, well. Then again, they are publicly* funded. You can even watch Frontline online if you want.

      See:
      http://www.pbs.org/
      http://www.npr.org/

      *Not completely true...

  37. Re:Newspapers didn't die because they were primiti by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I find it amusing that you misspelled celebrated as "celibrated" right after ripping on CNN for their typos. If you are an editor type, I expect you to give yourself some lashings for that...

  38. Day-to-day news irrelevant by rwade · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The demise of the print newspaper has a few causes.
    1. We live in a 24/7 news cycle, with 24 hour news on tv
    2. By the time a newspaper is printed & delivered, the "news" isn't new anymore.

    Frankly, the day-to-day machinations of government, war, and business are largely irrelevant to most people. Do I really care what congress said about the President's health care proposal today? No, it's not as if I'm going to write a letter to my congressman or to the White House everyday to give them a piece of my mind.

    What really matters is the trend -- what's going on with this story in general. Who is for it, who is against it, the arguments for, the arguments against, whether or not one side is full of BS over time is what really matters. I want to know what is happening with the story and TV news' focus on daily press conferences and across-the-aisle battles through press releases are just a distraction from the real story.

    I sit through cable news loops whenever I'm at the airport and it's just little sound-bytes of this and that -- I have no idea what the story is by the time CNN moves on. Some guy comes on and says something. Another guy comes on and refutes. I have no idea of who is credible -- the written word has the luxury of time and long attention spans to pull the thread and illustrate whether this guy's point is at all reasonable. TV just doesn't.

    TV news is just a distraction.

    Newspapers died because they gave away their content online. You can read a reasonable-length, non-long-form online with as much ease as with the print edition. When you give it away for free, people don't renew their print subscriptions. It has nothing to do with bias or some 24-hour news cycle mumbo-jumbo.

    1. Re:Day-to-day news irrelevant by stefancaunter · · Score: 1

      Well, I work for a media co based on a dead-tree newspaper, and that's the important thing. Make other media - websites, whatever, make money. Use the dead tree thing to drive clicks to the websites, and run em like they're extensions of the old broadsheet. My news/website is fine, started years ago. See wapo, nyt, etc. It's how you use your distribution and penetration in the market. Being a dead-tree newspaper is a start, or an ending, depending on how you build out.

  39. patently right? by Envy+Life · · Score: 1

    They had already merged business operations and sharing of weekend publishing duties. The only thing left in competition was the news and printing operations so in a downward spiraling industry it was both logical and inevitable for them to "combine" those too. They were in bed together, so it not as much a matter of DP outlasting RMN, it was inevitable for one to be closed at some point due to declining readership. In 99% of the rest of the country competition had already been eliminated.

  40. Newspapers are just getting lousy by SnarfQuest · · Score: 1

    The local newapaper here mostly consists of AP stories, which are several days behind the internet. The comics page often repeats the same comic over several days, or even in the same day.
    They also use intresting hyphenation schemes. I dislike hyphenation, but this paper has frequently hyphenated the word "the".
    Then, when go get to the end of a column, you get a "continued on page B14", when there are only 6 pages in the B section. If you manage to find the continuation, it's often only a couple of lines.
    Also, they find some articles so intresting that they'll put them in several times, just changing the title in each repeat.
    This paper is "updating" everything, so the paper is about 1/4 the size it used to be, for a increase in price.
    And they don't understand why they have lost so many subscribers.

    --
    Who would win this election: Andrew Weiner vs Andrew Weiner's weiner.
  41. Payment is the problem by Animats · · Score: 1

    The problem is paying for reporting. "News is what someone doesn't want you to know. All else is publicity". Free news has destroyed newspapers, but hasn't created a new source of revenue to pay for reporting.

    If you don't pay reporters, all you get is PR, punditry, and dreck, plus an occasional video of a disaster. Unfortunately, this creates the illusion of news coverage. Look at the top news stories on Google News right now:

    1. "Brazilians Rejoice as Rio Is Chosen to Host Olympic Games" - basic source is a press release from the International Olympic Committee.
    2. "Viewers react with sympathy, disgust for Letterman" - reaction to police report
    3. "Experts hope H1N1 will spur effort on universal jab" - from a letter to Science by flu researchers.
    4. "US immigrant population flat, Census numbers show" - from U.S. Government press release.
    5. "Phillips' incest claim draws attention to taboo" - punditry
    6. "Stocks fall following disappointing jobs report" - analysis of financial numbers
    7. "Survivors of Indonesian quake found; 3000 missing" - actual reporting by an on the scene reporter
    8. "Republicans Seize on Jobs as Proof Obama's Policies Have Failed" - punditry
    9. "Iran Nuclear Talks Elicit Optimism, Skepticism" - punditry from Voice of America
    10. "Calif asks feds for $4.7 billion for speedy trains" - from California governor press release

    Only one of those stories comes from actual reporting, as opposed to publicity.

    That's the problem.

    1. Re:Payment is the problem by NateTech · · Score: 1

      Excellent point. I had been thinking something similar, but couldn't articulate it. Nicely done.

      --
      +++OK ATH
  42. Re:Newspapers didn't die because they were primiti by fiannaFailMan · · Score: 1

    They big argument against newspapers on Slashdot is this perception that they are low tech. I know personally the reason I stopped reading a daily paper had nothing to do with the internet. I stopped years before the internet got relevant for a few good reasons. First was far too many ads. In a major city like LA or New York you got a daily paper the size of a small phone book for a handful of stories you actually wanted to read with the bulk of it being ads. The Sunday papers were even worse. Also newspapers were where you went to get the whole story and not the fluff you tended to get through television. That changed and the quality of stories and reporting dropped like a rock. I saw it happen early on with my hometown paper, I come from a very small town. Back in the day they covered national news stories but by the end they were more like a high school paper. I found gradually with the newspapers I was reading the relevant stories got rarer and rarer and the quality of the information wasn't as good as I was getting on the evening news. I often found there were no more than two or three stories that interested me and some times there were none. The internet was the death blow for the papers but they were weakened before the internet came along. The decline was apparent back in the 80s and revenues have been falling for 20 years or more. The reasons for the decline are hard to put a finger on because blaming even TV doesn't make much sense because TV news was decades old when the newspapers started their fall from grace. In the end it may be more the newspaper's fault than technology itself. Focusing more on ad revenue and not on news itself weakened them and made them open for failure. Once they were the only source of news, then they were still the best source of news and finally the became a poor source of news. Their final death blow was easily available news and the need for news on demand but those things weren't the root cause of the newspaper's fall from grace. Most people on the site probably don't remember a time when newspapers were your primary source of news. Most thing things are better now but the truth is the quality of news is appalling. Things have gotten so bad most consider blogs a source of news, they don't in any way report news they are purely predigested information and mostly opinion and not news. There are no standards for blogs. Even web sites like CNN are shockingly bad. It's hard to find an article without typos. In an age of spell checkers they actually post most stories with typos. That's beyond embarassing. In the old news days a single miss-spelled word or mistake in a story was a black mark for an editor. On line news is largely free of editorial oversight. The death of newspapers shouldn't be celibrated but mourned. TV news has become news bunnies and male models and on-line news is so chaotic that there's no way to separate fact from fiction. The death of newspapers is in some ways the death of news.

    Amen brother.

    There is one newspaper that has managed to buck the trend by keeping the ads unobtrusive, concentrating on quality journalism, and keeping writing standards high. It can be heavy reading if you're not used to it since the articles are longer than your average newspaper piece, but they are detailed enough to be concise and informative. It is augmented by a witty application of cartoons and illustrations that help to get the point across. It is published weekly, and there is an actual benefit to reading it since the focus is on analysis of what happened instead of making a futile attempt to beat the internet to the punch of informing you about what happened. It is also available online for free, but the sheer quality of its work is such that they can afford to charge a bit more for online ads. This paper is continuing to grow.

    It's called The Economist.

    --
    Drill baby drill - on Mars
  43. Because ad-supported news is such a success... by dirkdodgers · · Score: 1

    The best he can do in hindsight is to recommend that local and regional newspapers model their business model after the New York Times. The New York Times can't make the New York Times' business model work, and he thinks his newspaper could have?

    The only way for these second and third tier newspapers to be successful is to recognize that the objective of a company is not to be prestigious, not to be respected, not even necessarily to be large, but rather to make a profit.

    Second and third tier newspapers that are unable to make the transition to serving a niche markets will not survive. Print is a niche market. You can be profitable there, but when your organization has as much overhead as it did 5 years ago, you will not be profitable.

    And second and third tier newspapers that are unable to target a broad range of niche markets will not approach the revenue they had under the old model.

  44. A historical perspective by Calithulu · · Score: 1

    Republicans at the time were not a conservative party so you've made something of a disingenuous argument, given the turmoil of both parties at the time. Both parties come from the same roots, but at the time of the Civil War abolitionist Democrats split off and joined the Republican party. At the same time, the remaining members of the Democratic party in the North split into two factions, those who backed the war (and voted for Lincoln) and the Copperheads, who were strong State's rights supporters. Neither was a strong supporter of abolition of slavery, and in the case of the Copperhead leadership actively opposed it. At this time, the Republicans were a liberal party and both had similar economic policies (free market) and supported the common man over wealthy, moneyed interests. It was after the Civil War's resolution that the parties began to establish their current identities, though it wasn't until the Great Depression that the modern Democratic party established an economic policy that is at least nominally different than their Republican counterparts.

    So you are absolutely correct, but as with many things in history and politics, it is more complicated than a surface reading shows. Especially when a large portion of one political party changes allegiance to another political party over a hot button issue. It makes things like the raising of Gay Marriage and Abortion at every election have some political context, hoping to lure people away from their party to join the other. It might even work... if the parties weren't so similar. Today's media is a (willing?) pawn in this scheme, reporting on what is clearly a political tool without calling the politicians (of either party) on it.

    You know, looking back it is staggering to see just how far all of our political parties have fallen...

  45. Who moved my cheese? by misnohmer · · Score: 1

    Sounds like someone there should have read "Who Moved My Cheese?" - an all time classic book.

  46. How newspapers might make it. by ResidentSourcerer · · Score: 1

    Newspapers have never been the timeliest info delivery system since the invention of radio.

    THAT said, the electronic media have a dismal reputation for depth.

    Were I the owner of a newspaper, I would try for substance over flash. Take the stuff that was news last week, last month, last year. Do a followup. Figure out it's impact. Analyze the causes.

    Many of these articles would have a useful lifespan far longer than the day or two that present "news" does. That amortizes the journalists' salaries over more time.

    To make money:

    * You sell ads that appear beside your articles.
    * An article appears only as an abstract for non-subscribers initially. A tag line on it says when it will become free access.
    * Subscriptions fees allow the following:

    1. An ad free version.
    2. Permanent links. (You can search for an article at any time, but the permanent link allows you to cite the article in a report or paper.)
    3. Immediate access to articles as soon as they are published. "Hey did you read that article in the Tattler on nanofiber fabrication? Oh, that's right, you're not a subscriber. Look for it two weeks. Worth your time. Meanwhile here's a tip: Don't buy Almalgamated Nano."
    4. Customizable mashups -- In the daily list of headlines, you tag them as "Important, Interesting, Significant, Yawnable" etc. When their system learns your preferences, the important stuff is at the top.

    At the international level there may be only a dozen articles a day. But they may run several thousand words.

    As an example: Some years ago Yugoslavia was in the news with all kinds of beastial things being done by the Slavs. The news was fairly one sided. I caught an episode of Ideas on CBC that went into the history of the region. I realized that it wasn't quite as simple as I thought.

    The TV covers news of Katrina. The newspaper should cover what changes have been made to prevent the next one.

    The TV covers the latest shuttle launch for the last refurbishment mission to the hubble. The newspaper gives the history of the Hubble, why it was designed to be human serviceable, where it fits into the big picture, how much that cost us, and what changes in astronomy have come about because of it.

    --
    Third Career: Tree Farmer Second Career: Computer Geek First Career: Teacher, Outdoor Instructor, Photographer.
    1. Re:How newspapers might make it. by justthinkit · · Score: 1

      A great long post. Lots of bullet points. Paragraph upon paragraph. In this case the moderation says it all: 1.

      It's dead, Jim.

      --
      I come here for the love
  47. Advertising by ResidentSourcerer · · Score: 1

    As a small tree farmer marketing locally has always been a problem.

    In 2008 I advertised for 5 weeks in the three closest weeklies. I received 1 phone call. $300 per lead.

    In 2009 I kept a bunch of ads running on two Kijiji sites. I paid the $13/week to keep one ad as a top ad.

    Net result 4-6 calls per week generating $20,000 in sales for the season.

    The general model of dead tree advertising is also dead. The ad has to be targeted. There is no point in advertising trees on the sports page. Google adwords makes sense.

    With the internet advertising and news will be separate. If you want a car, you go to a car site. If you want a washing machine, you go to an appliance site.

    There *may* be a demand for advertising for marketing -- building brand awareness, building image. There may also be a demand for advertising for impulse buying.

    But I think the conventional role of full page spread ads in the newspaper is going fast.

    --
    Third Career: Tree Farmer Second Career: Computer Geek First Career: Teacher, Outdoor Instructor, Photographer.
  48. Good lord he is not a good speaker by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The content of the video seems interesting, but it is all undone by the speaker's stuttering, messing up of words and rattling of his papers. The monotone voice doesn't help either.

    It's technology, stupid. How hard can it be to do a couple of takes and use the good ones?

  49. Housto Chronicle going belly up. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The Houston Chronicle will no doubt go under soon.
        They've raised their prices from 50 cents to 1 dollar under the ruse that they cost more to deliver, due to gas prices.

        Then they cut the paper carriers paychecks, (the delivery people who actually are keeping them afloat), by about one third, take away their vehicle maintenance reimbursements, and make them roll papers in rat infested pole barns with the only bathroom being "the tree around back".

      And I'll swear on a mile high stack of bibles that I am telling the truth.

  50. It's the content stupid! by Touvan · · Score: 1

    I've been saying it for a while; It's the content stupid! Newspapers seem to universally suck. It's not that it's on a paper, it's that they suck. That's why fewer people buy them. I'm glad someone within the industry has been able to figure that out - if a bit too late.