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Israeli Knesset Approves Biometric Database Law
Lord Duran writes "The Israeli Knesset approved a bill that will require every Israeli citizen to submit a visual scan of their face and a biometric scan of their fingerprints to a national database. I, for one, fail to see how this is anything but evil. TFA mentions the Israeli census was breached — I'd like to point out, for comparison, that it's still freely available on your peer-to-peer file sharing network of choice."
Oh, wait, that's New Testament anyways, isn't it? Nevermind...
FTA: "...that the system would be kept as confidential as any banking website"
Why does that not make me feel better about this?
Same problem with all biometrics.
What happens when the system is compromised? How do I change my password?
I find being offended by me offensive.
What is a "biometric visual scan of their face"? A photograph?
Every country does that. It's called an ID card. As far as fingerprints, I've had to submit my fingerprints like 10 times for various services, clearances, not to mention immigration documents.
This isn't really news. Even if it's a 3D laser-scan, that's really not different from a photograph nowadays.
As much as it bothers me to have centralized databases of ANYTHING, if there is anything that needs a centralized database, it's identification. I'm a privacy freak and I am not sure that this bothers me, especially in the context of a country that can claim the dubious honor of being the most likely terrorist target in the industrialized world.
All citizens of a country which isn't exactly liked by its neighbours are placed on a single database. Database leaks. Any future authority which doesn't like Israelis for any reason can now reliably identify them at crossing points, when travelling, after an invasion, etc.
libguestfs - tools for accessing and modifying virtual machine disk images
We can construct a topic that will generate the lowest signal to noise ratio EVER! Proceed, gentlemen, proceed!
While their actions and policies towards the Palestinians are pretty heinous, you can't just paint the whole society as evil. They have developed a verymodern society in the midst of their enemies and excel at many fields of science and literature.
You can blame the Jews for persecuting the Palestinians, but you can't say that everything they do is evil.
In the USA the local police department usually sponsors a fingerprint drive where elementary age kids get a coloring book or something for surrendering their fingerprints. Those records are kept in a central location. Moreover, to get any job with a state or federal employer, you must submit to digital fingerprinting. To get a drivers license you get your picture taken. All those biometrics are stored in a central location. Israel is just being smart about it and storing everything in a digital format. Less secure, maybe, but way easier to search through than a pile of papers in some filing cabinet.
So its really not that bad, unless you really want to live off the grid or something.
The only reason for not being identifiable is because you're dead. Lets make identifying the remains easier.
The rest is conjecture and lies people tell each other.
Personally, I'd like to have offensive weapons keyed into the biometrics of the person they're meant for so they wouldn't kill me. A smart gun that would only shoot the person its supposed to.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
"Biometric passports are established throughout Europe since years back."
As an Irish citizen currently living in Belgium, I have to say I don't think this is true. I don't know a single person in either country with a biometric passport.
When I was born, my foot prints were put on the birth certificate, which is on file, for identification (my social security card validates against it). When I got my state ID, that had my picture. When I got my SBU clearance, my fingerprints and photo went on record.
It seems to me that the line in question is fictitious. The only question is the efficiency of the ID method, and the security of the database.
Why did you stop there? lets have the government tell us when we can meet our friends, what we must eat, what music we must listen to. Lets also burn any books with dangerous ideas in. Lets remove the word 'freedom' from the language and make it illegal to say it, that way people wont get dangerous ideas.
You can blame the Jews for persecuting the Palestinians
Is that like being an apologist for terrorists, and then blaming the victims when they try to defend themselves? Wait, that's not a bad analogy, it's just what you're doing. You can't blame the Jews for persecuting the Palestinians, because they haven't been. They actually get better treatment is Israel than in any other country in the Middle East. If the Palestinians don't like the defensive measures Israel takes, then they should stop attacking Israel.
Here's an analogy for you- What do you think would happen if the Mexican government started sending rockets and mortars into El Paso because they wanted to take Texas back? What would happen if snipers from Mexico started shooting farmers in Arizona? If they blew up crowds of shoppers in San Diego? And the Mexican government refused to stop? I think the US would start carpet bombing in about 2 seconds. Does that analogy work for you?
I am curious why they approved it, felt the need, etc. . And most probably I won't like the answer.
...about biometric data is when people convince themselves that they now have a tamper proof system.
... for you see, Revelations isn't a chapter in the Torah.
Ed R.Zahurak
You know, oblivion keeps looking better every day.
Every country strikes its between the privacy of its citizens and the security of its citizens. In Israel, due to its circumstances, the balance is more heavily tilted toward security over privacy. In every country of which I am aware, military service involves sacrificing some level of freedom and privacy. In Israel, almost every non-Arab citizen of the country serves in the army, and of course that service requires photographs, fingerprints, DNA sampling, etc. already. So this is not much different than status quo in Israel, and I would not call it "evil."
There's a bit of irony here because a little man in Germany fifty years ago did something very similar in categorizing and identifying Jews. It was not benign.
EvilCON - Made Famous by
The Israeli census is freely available everywhere... It's a shame that the same people who are in charged for the census fiasco, are those are will be in charged for securing the biometric database.
We may argue, whether this will work or not, but why is it "evil"? Is it the fear, the impersonators will now be ripping faces off people to pretend to be them?
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
There's been a long struggle against this biometric database and we may have lost the battle, but we will win the war. There are still ways to bury this database and all will be pursued, whether they're appealing to the Israeli High Court of Justice (Bagatz), convincing the Ministry of Treasury to keep it outside the budget (It is estimated at over US$100,000,000 to implement), etc.
The law was introduced by MK Shirtrit who I personally suspect has ulterior motives for his overzealous support of the bill and the way he rallied both the coalition and opposition to the cause. The finger has already been pointed at lobbyists from Hewlett Packard. The government bowed to pressure and shady deals were made - we knew it was going to be passed even before they started deliberating.
There's only one finger that I'll be showing MK Shitrit and his biometric database.
"Programming is life, the rest is mere details"
You don't need a central database to have biometric passports/id cards. All you need is to store their hashes on the card and that would be compared to the person in question.
This is the only thing required of a biometric card.
"Programming is life, the rest is mere details"
What happens when the system is compromised? How do I change my password?
Well, you look nervous. Is it the scars? You want to know how I got 'em?
If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error.
Uh, you may have noticed that the country is Israel and, well, y'know, most of the Israelis are Jews and Muslims, very few whacko Christians except among the tourists.
People could register themselves and their property in countries where personhood and property are not always well-respected, for instance, Zimbabwe, Cameroon and the USA.
One possible answer to your question, is that there is no shortage of people who genuinely want to live in the "end times". There are several reasons why this is so, but I tend to think it's because their faith is particularly weak, and a big visible Revelations style conflict would go a long way to strengthening their faith.
Now, I'm not saying that you're one of these nuts. But if you move in "Wacko Christian Right" circles (your phrase, not mine) then it's possible you've met some people who think like this.
A representative sampling can be found in the collected posts of fundamentalists, which can be found at www.fstdt.com
(e.g. Quote# 67376)
It was meant to be compulsory, but because of public outrage, it's only voluntary for the next 2 years, then it will be re-discussed. Thats how democracies work. http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArtVty.jhtml?sw=biometric&itemNo=1133498
You are right, it is only a step beyond a driver's license database - which is a bad idea to begin with. When the US introduced a national driver's license database with the REAL ID Act, the reaction here was just as negative, so don't pretend that we are being hypocritical.
Speaking of which, starting January first I have to get a passport to travel within the US (by plane), because my state has not yet met the requirements of the REAL ID Act (and good for them even if it was for the wrong reasons). If the federal government is going to act like fascists I'd prefer they do it out in the open.
FWIW, I don't think your post deserved the "Troll" rating. Your question was fair.
They were not offered a place to stay, Palenstinian land and buildings are usurped using the progressive tactic of:
1. Build border settlements
2. Whine about rocket attacks
3. Move border out of range of rockets
Wash, rinse, repeat. This is why the illegal settlements are such a sore point in the issue; they are the mechanism by which Israel is stealing the entire area that was the Palestinian state. Just look at a map from 1948 and a map from today. If you have time, check the map every decade between, you'll see Israel increasing steadily in area.
That's just it; the Palenstinians contend that Israel is not only violating their sovereignty, but displacing it physically by pushing their country into a smaller and smaller area. Gaza and the West Bank are becoming more and more overpopulated as the Palestinian lands shrink, effectively making them concentration camps.
Say what you want about Hamas. They were elected fairly, in elections overseen by Jimmy Carter. Whatever you, the UN or your government may think of them, they are the democratically elected party, and they were elected mainly because the previous group who did not support direct violence fell out of favour because Israel refused to negotiate with them. This fuelled support for Hamas. Now that Hamas are in Israel strangely wants to talk to Fatah again.
Smells like Israel just wants a belligerent neighbor so they can keep pointing at them and playing victim all the while dredging military aid from the US by the billions.
I hate printers.
Bin Laden, is what Donald Trump calls "a member of the lucky sperm club" (Trump himself is a member) - someone who was born into a very rich family. Now, I don't know about you folks, but if I were born into a rich family I'd get into the family business, become a full-time Linux hacker, do charity work - like help Palesinians maybe?, or even try being a jet set playboy. NOT killing civilians to get the Satan out of the Holy Land.
Bin Laden is so full of hate that he can't think clearly - he's basically insane with rage. He could have channeled that into a productive rage - use his resources to show American and Israeli injustices towards the Palestinians and Arab injustices towards the Palestinians. He could have been the World's greatest peaceful champion of Islam and shown the World what Islam is about.
But he didn't.
He turned to violence and hate.
The US turned him into that one might say. I'd like to point out that he's a grown man and can think for himself. Blaming the US is complete horseshit.
It's NOT me! It's the meds! I'm on 1000mg of Fukitol.
I don't remember that. What happened in Germany in 1959?
Tom Dooley, by the Kingston Trio, was the number one hit in Germany for 12 weeks! I thought everyone knew this. It was in all the papers at the time...
[UID-HeinzIntel]
Well, if Mexico had tried to invade the U.S., and lost badly, and had a bunch of their land taken away for starting a war against the U.S., I would say too bad for Mexico.
But if you move in "Wacko Christian Right" circles (your phrase, not mine)
I moved out of those circles, but I still visit once in a while. The food is tasty!
:">
I'm sure you are correct for a portion of the populace of faith who "want to live in the end times".
But I think an overwhelming preponderance is that they/we perceive that many of the element necessary to fulfill an "end times" are in place. Conversely, the elements in place are not sustainable, and anything which is not sustainable eventually ends. Who was the Great Prophet who said "Everything that has a beginning has an end." Oh, wait, that was one of the Matrix movies. sorry
This biometric database, be it MotB or not, is similar to what end timers expect. And they may be right. Time will tell, only too late.
Your bias is showing through. You are identifying one group by religion and one by nationality. It should either be:
"You can blame the Israelis for persecuting the Palestinians".
Or
"You can blame the Jews for persecuting the Muslims"
"As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
I think somebody's sarcasm detector is broken...
A good education is a bit like a STD - it makes you unsuitable for a lot of jobs and gives you a desire to spread it.
Just look at a map from 1948 and a map from today. If you have time, check the map every decade between, you'll see Israel increasing steadily in area.
Most of Israeli territorial gains were outcomes of wars, most of which they didn't trigger.
Six-Day War is arguable, but I can certainly see how moves by Arab countries, and specifically Egypt, were highly threatening at that point, and IMO, given the information that Israelis had then, and the consequences of their choices, preemptive attack was the only rational option they were left with; and, at the same time, Egypt could easily defuse the situation and prevent the war if Nasser had the desire to do so.
This "Philip" guy is basically a PR guy for Ahmadinejad and Iran. I wouldn't waste your time arguing with him.
You call them terrorists, they call them freedom fighters. It's a matter of perspective. Get some.
Total misdirection; a typical tactic of the pro-Israel mob. In 1948 when Israel was declared to exist (it did not declare independence, as it did not exist prior to that), it immediately enacted Jewish favoring laws, and the Irgun and Haganah (which would later become the IDF) harassed and threatened the Palestinians so that they left out of fear. There was a recent exhibit in Melbourne where Palestinian families told how they lost their homes as the borders of Israel creep outward, displacing the people as they go. Most Palestinians do not have Israeli citizenship, and so as the borders move, so must they. Trouble is, their houses do not. Many told stories of being able to look over barbed wire fences and actually see people living in the house that they had to abandon only a few years earlier.
Dunno. How about you tell me about the US being led by people like Colin Powell, who willfully lied to the world about WMDs in order to start an illegal, unpopular. Tell me about GW Bush whose family fortunes are essentially based on war. Tell me about Henry Kissinger who has some kind of fetish for ruining South American economies for fun and relaxation. Tell me about Cheyney lobbying Congress to ensure that his Halliburton cronies got the lions share of the Iraqi war loot.
Then also talk to me about Israel holding a big ceremony celebrating the Irgun terrorists who bombed the King David hotel.
Israel is a state founded with violence. Its borders were carved out by the illegal violence perpetrated by the Irgun and Haganah. Live by the sword, die by the sword. If Israel wants to rule by virtue of being the stronger party, that's fine. But at least be man enough to admit the desire to rule by might. Don't do it and whine the whole time when others challenge that type of rule.
Also, tell me who the terrorists are given a) relative body counts between Israeli civilians and Palestinian civilians b) the fact that Israel has violated more UN resolutions than any other country while pointing vociferously at any other country that violates them (hey, either you support the UN or you don't, but you don't get to point at violators when you yourself are the biggest violator) and c) Israel's continual policy of setting up illegal settlements right along the border and then moving the border just a bit more.
Sorry, Israel is *not* above reproach. Far, far from it.
I hate printers.
wait till you have to renew your Irish passport
the new ones are biometric and contain an RFID chip, btw you are not allowed into US with an old Irish passport that doesnt contain the above
i just got pictures done for new passport
also the Garda Immigration Green Cards are plastic credit card size ID cards that contain fingerprints + photo for all non EU immigrants here in Ireland
Not that I disagree with your sentiment (as a general rule you shouldn't try to label entire societies as good or evil) but how exactly is modernization, science, and literature 'not evil' by definition. Not to Godwin the discusion, but NAZI germany advanced the fields of human biology and engineering; so much so that their research is still used today (because it can't be ethically repeated).
Let me try to paraphrase your post.
"What about all the good things Hitler did!"
Wow.
in germany, you can't get a new one without it.
Otto Schily received a lifetime bigbrother award in 2005 for introducing the biometric passport in germany.
I know it's /. and it's not common that people actually read the article, but it is not required. The law creates the basis for a voluntary database, as a test, and in two years the subject will be checked again. At this stage only citizens that wish to get documents containing biometric data will have to join the database, and the ministry of interior will still provide the standard documents as well.
I definitely won't join the database, as it will definitely leak (just like anything else from our ministry of interior, and I hope it will become public in the next 2 years, as it will probably mean they will drop the idea (and the DB). The whole thing is fairly stupid, the people pushing for it claiming they do it to make documents forgery harder (well, they say "impossible"), but then a simple signed card with the biometric data and formal identity will do, no need for a centralized database...
how is this flamebait?
About 2% Christian and 1.7% Druze in Israel, most of the Christians are Christian Palestinians. And remember that alot of Israeli Jews are non-religious, those are the folks I lived with over there.
'27% are "non-religious traditionalists" (only partly respecting the Jewish Halakha), and 43% are "secular"'
Then we need an astronaut to be sent into deep space and frozen only to be returned to Earth 500 years later...
Okay, first let's dispense with the concept of "prophecy". You say "I'm not saying this is Revelation 13:18 per se. It could be, it could NOT be. Who can know?" It's not, and we can all know, because there is no such thing as prophecy, because there is no such thing as magic.
Okay, now what there is, is prediction, especially insightful and informed prediction. It's hardly difficult to predict some things that will happen in the future, and the fact that thousands of years ago somebody said something about having marks on the forehead to engage in commerce was a reasonable prediction. Of course, it never came to pass, and still won't, because we're not considering putting marks on foreheads, we're considering photographing people and keeping records. Many good people would resist both marks on the forehead as well as biometric ID cards.
For informed context, look back over history and decide if these times look more like the end times than other times such as the black plague or WW2. There were crazyass people saying those were the end times, too; but they were not, in fact, the end times, because, in fact, there is no such thing. But, you can still oppose biometric ID cards if you want, nothing wrong with that.
That's only half the story: shortly after his time as minister of the interior, he joined the board of directors of SAFE ID Solutions AG, a company specializing in - you guessed it - "integrated security solutions to the global ID market with systems optimized for new generation electronic documents".
I hope I didn't brain my damage.
people, 95% of the comments on this topic so far are based on bias and hate. there are no facts, only conjecture. knock it off.
There was no Israel until a people ignored by the British (yes, the Brits, read up on Palestine at the end of WW II) in Palestine declared they were going to TAKE land and set up a state. No one strong enough was interested enough to take action. So in your example, if Israel had lost, they would deserve total subjugation? "Too bad?" No, I suspect they'd have been martyred instead. Trouble with Israel is the same as with any country fought over for many centuries. Americans don't have the history, so they have "all the answers." Count yerself lucky ya cowardly anon. Less to think about.
Just look at a map from 1948 and a map from today. If you have time, check the map every decade between, you'll see Israel increasing steadily in area.
I'm not Pro-Israel by any means and I don't particularly like the way it was founded (modern day Israel) but you should look at the history as well.
Israel was invaded multiple times - almost destroyed. They took land like Gaza and the West Bank as a buffer from REAL threats.
Let's see your country get invaded by ALL your neighbors (though Jordan's participation was half-hearted). I'd be surprised if it responds in a warm fuzzy fashion.
This post is not offtopic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbols_of_Islam#Green
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
You call them terrorists, they call them freedom fighters. It's a matter of perspective. Get some.
I think you're a bit confused. There is nothing stopping a person from being a freedom fighter and a terrorist at the same time. The first term refers to why they're doing what they're doing. The second refers to how they do it. So while Hamas may (it's rather questionable. but so are many other things) be fighting for freedom, how they do it (purposefully targeting, attacking and executing unarmed civilians) makes them terrorists.
If only one could get that wonderful feeling of accomplishment without having to accomplish anything.
I thought about him a while back in my Jewish studies class (online gen-eds, gotta love 'em). There was a part dealing with antisemitism, about how it has evolved to into anti-Israeli sentiment to cover it's ass, so to speak, by taking the guise of a reasonable argument against a nation's policies, not pure racist hatred, because clearly there are two types of anti-Israel sentiment: reasonable and racist. Imagine if black people only made up a small enough percent of the population that 40% could live in one small area. Do you think the KKK and the neo-nazi skinheads would criticize that nation's policies, regardless? You know they would, and publicly, they'd do it under the guise of 'criticizing policy' but really, it would be racism. We all know it would be. Israel is the same way. Take a race that has historically been hated and but them in their own little country, guess what the racists say about it? Only now, they have a mask for their racism, they can claim that they're anti-Israel, not the antisemitic Jew hating racists that they really are.
I don't think criticism of Israel is all without merit. Yes, some of it is insane, like when people say the Israelis are monsters for defending themselves from terrorists who want to kill as many Israeli citizens as possible, but Israeli policy has, at times, not helped things, and that is worth criticizing. Israel has done, and does do, bad things. One of my Arabic professors presented very reasonable criticisms of Israel. Problem is, there's enough blame to go around when Israel's neighbors are supporting a group that launches rockets at Israeli civilians while hiding behind other civilians and using them as shields, so it is hardly unreasonable when Israel takes the precautionary principle, and a degree of overreaction on their part is sadly justified.
But I agree with you all the way, you're wasting your time if you argue with douchebag. I saw a bumper sticker the other day that read 'Hate is the ONLY enemy.' People like him, they hate. They are part of the problem. Israelis are not the enemy, Palestinians are not the enemy, Arabs are not the enemy, Iranians are not the enemy. People who hate are the enemy. There is so much antisemitism and islamophobia in that region and around the world trying to make itself look reasonable, it's disgusting. There's plenty about Israel you can debate, but not with an antisemite who thinks the Israeli people are evil and that a country were people are born and die and make their homes and lives shouldn't even have the right to exist.
Not everyone wants peace. They are the problem. They are the evil ones.
No, no.. you don't remove the word "freedom", you just slowly redefine it, so that being free means getting to vote for your government (provided it's for one of two identical parties), being able to say what you want (just so long as you don't say anyone that might offend any race, gender, sexual orientation, or disparage the troops), being able to go wherever you want (provided you carry enough documentation for the government to track your every move), being able to work where you want (so long as its for one of a decreasing number of giant corporate conglomerations)... That's REAL freedom!
Israel is a state founded with violence.
That's every country, by the way. Look at how many countries were formed by, at one point in their history, by unjustly killing the natives. Almost all, if not all, of them. Might have been 300 years ago, might have been 100 years ago, might have been 50 years ago, but the only thing that separates Israel and every other country in that respect is time.
I really appreciate hearing someone who acknowledges some of Israels faults while still seeming to be in favor of the country. (Usually, the loudest participants in any discussion fall into "Israel is evil and bad" or "Israel is blameless and good.") That said...
I'm not sure I agree. I think you should definitely keep in mind the norms of the day, celebrating what the US Founding Fathers did right, for example. But I don't think that gives them an excuse or an out for doing things we now consider really reprehensible (keeping slaves, not considering that women might like to vote, too, etc).
I don't think this should be used as an excuse to villainize Israel. But I also don't think the norms of the 40s and 50s should excuse the really problematic things Israel and the UN did, either.
That's only half the story: shortly after his time as minister of the interior, he joined the board of directors of SAFE ID Solutions AG, a company specializing in - you guessed it - "integrated security solutions to the global ID market with systems optimized for new generation electronic documents".
I dunno if you were modded funny on purpose or as a typo - but what you wrote is completely true.
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
Seeing as there was already an article today of a Japanese women changing her fingerprints and the fact that it has been proven that you can fool facial recognition simply by putting a picture in front of the camera, both of these biometrics are spoofed pretty easily.
If on the other hand you have a finger print DB and require photo identification like most countries, I don't see this as a big deal. How is this any different than what the US or Canada or any number of countries have been doing for decades. I remember getting finger printed when I was in elementary school, I am sure that is on file now, and I get my photo done on a driver's licence every 5 years.
Sure one is mandatory where the other are voluntary (I am pretty sure the finger printing was done my a RCMP program that was voluntary to protect the children from being kidnapt or running away and getting lost or some such thing).
However it is hardly voluntary if I was 5 year old, and many would consider having a drivers licence a required part of living or at least having a job, though you might get by in an urban city.
But it's still evil. I always tell rednecks :
Israel is one of the very few countries in the world with significant terrorism problems. If Israel doesn't need some security measure, we sure as hell don't need it.
So Israel agreeing to buy American tech with America's aid money to keep American politicians happy hurts my argument. :(
The Christian religion has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world. -- Bertrand Russell
I agree "How civilized can you say a people really are when they elect terrorists to lead them?"
David Ben Gurion - member of Haganah - Israeli Prime Minister
Moshe Sharett - member of Haganah - Israeli Prime Minister
Yitzhak Rabin - member of Haganah - Israeli Prime Minister
Shimon Peres - member of Haganah - Israeli Prime Minister
Menachim Begin - leader of Irgun - Israeli Prime Minister
Yitzhak Shamir - leader of Lehi - Israeli Prime Minister
Ariel Sharon - member of Haganah - Israeli Prime Minister
Moshe Dayan - member of Haganah - Israeli Foreign Minister
War is just terrorism with a bigger budget. (And better political spin.)
You call them unarmed civilians, we call them "collateral damage."
It is true that in 2008 only tens of Israeli civilians died, I have to agree, but this greatly vary from year to year. It mainly depend on the techniques terrorists use and how much do we adapt. In 2001, for example, the numbers will be in the hundreds, so will be the number of Palestinians, by the way. What you just did will be similar to explain the war in Afghanistan while ignoring everything that happened until 2003, 9/11, for example.
Anyway, you miss the point. Terror is not killing civilians, many people kill civilians all the time, terror is intentionally killing civilians (in order to spread terror). Israeli bases are (in most cases, and anyway near the borders) outside civilian settlements, so you can fairly say when civilians were killed it was intentional. Hamas operate from civilian buildings, this includes houses, but also schools, hospitals etc. You might claim that when they do that we can't attack, but that's not the international law, we may attack, provided we take care to harm as few civilians as possible. Now, the critical point is, of course, the acceptable ratio. I would advise checking the numbers, and comparing the ratio here in other places where forces tend to use civilians as cover.
Anyway, when we have more firepower, more people will die on the other side. We do not, for example, shoot missiles randomly into populated areas, as Hamas does (from time to time). We try to hit the terrorists, you might argue that we don't try to avoid civilians enough, but saying we kill them on purpose... I simply can't find the words for that.
You call them unarmed civilians, we call them "collateral damage."
In order for it to be collateral damage, it has to be, well, collateral. Do you actually read what you're replying to? Let me point you to the part you missed: purposefully targeting ... unarmed civilians.
As far as your cute line about war = terrorism, did you miss the memo regarding it being illegal to kill noncombatants in modern day wars?
Unless you were just being an ass, here, educate yourself: http://hnn.us/articles/1345.html
If only one could get that wonderful feeling of accomplishment without having to accomplish anything.
Israeli forces targeting civilians? This post is just the Israeli government sophistry.
Would you tell us how many Israelis have been killed since, let us say, September 2000?
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html
Of course that is not the official Israeli government figure so you may not accept it.
Read the Goldstone report. Of course Israel targeted civilians including a UN School! Why does Israel not have a proper judicial investigation of the allegations in that report.
In any case in the situation that the Palestinians find themselves in in Gaza would not everyone join the resistance.
David Ben Gurion 1970: "Why should the Arabs make peace? If I were an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel."
Well yes of course you are right - in part. But time is not the only thing that sets Israel apart. It also seems to be alone in continually
whining and expecting the international community to provide sympathy and, in the case of the US, military and financial support when the natives strike back. If it is operating on the principle that might is right it should be consistent about it.
Well, if it weren't so sad, it would actually be kind of funny, I guess. The profiteers are certainly laughing their asses off, like "Gazprom Schröder" (former German Chancellor, details here, older article), the most prominent example of corruption, bribery and corporatism.
I hope I didn't brain my damage.
When was Israel invaded multiple times? The surrounding Arab countries reacted to the Zionist persecution of the local population when Israel was set up.
But if you read the history Israel precipitated the war then and used it to obtain more territory.
http://www.representativepress.org/Sources.html
Israel precipitated the 1967 war.
http://www.gregfelton.com/middle/2007_06_07.htm
Egypt and Syria invaded Israeli occupied Sinai and Golan Heights. On no occasion was Israel "almost destroyed".
Let's see your land invaded (by Israel - the Middle Eastern superpower). And I'd be surprised if it responds in a warm fuzzy fashion.
That subjects everyone who visits the US to this same treatment.
As far as your cute line about war = terrorism, did you miss the memo regarding it being illegal to kill noncombatants in modern day wars?
I wish the US had heard about that:
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/
With the first link, the chain is forged.
Not my country. Canada was literally partied into existence. The founding fathers showed up in Charlottetown with a ship load of champagne to talk about confederation. You know, just in case they could find something to celebrate.
probably politically incorrect but heck if they are going to those lengths to store the data about everyone just go with the barcode tat.
You are reversing the order of events.
1. Build border settlements
The towns near Gaza are not settlements, they are and always were within Israeli international borders. Ashdod is 43 Km (20 miles), it is not a "border settlement", most of Israel (Including Tel-Aviv) is below 43 Km from its borders.
2. Whine about rocket attacks
The US president would not act nicely towards Mexico if it launches rocket attacks on San Diego either.
they are the mechanism by which Israel is stealing the entire area that was the Palestinian state.
There was no Palestinian state, ever. The U.N decided to divide the British controlled area between the Jews and the Arabs. When the British left at 1948, the Arab states conquered the parts that we now call Palestine. This land was an integral part of Jordan and Egypt up until the war of 1969.
Just look at a map from 1948 and a map from today. If you have time, check the map every decade between, you'll see Israel increasing steadily in area.
You are trolling, this is simply false, it has been reversed lately. Since the peace talks began, parts of the occupied territories were given to the Palestinian authority (1994-5), and some of the newer maps mark these areas correctly. Unfortunately, due to later unrest Palestinian control was massively eroded (call it retaliation or a security necessity). Despite that, these lands are still marked as Palestinian in many maps.
Gaza and the West Bank are becoming more and more overpopulated as the Palestinian lands shrink, effectively making them concentration camps.
This is only a half truth. The West Bank is shrinking due to actions of Israel, and people there do suffer from it, but this is not so with Gaza (where the rockets come from). Gaza is within its 1948 borders, when it was part of Egypt, and Gaza is the most overpopulated part of Palestine. Israel has nothing to do with it. So do you say that Israeli actions deprive Gazans of land they could use in the west bank? Wrong, Gaza does not border with the West bank. People could never move freely between these two places, not even during their Arab rule. Geographically they are two different nations. They were linked together only due to political/strategic moves by all sides (Israeli, Palestinian, American, European, Egyptian and Jordanian).
The people of Gaza have only two possible expansion directions: towards Israel (beyond 1948 borders) or towards Egypt. This is what many of them want. This is one of the reasons why the peace talks stalled - Israel did not want to let a big percent of Palestinians immigrate to Israel, and the Palestinians did not want to give this thought up.
Say what you want about Hamas. They were elected fairly, in elections overseen by Jimmy Carter. Whatever you, the UN or your government may think of them, they are the democratically elected party
So was Slobodan Milosevic, it did not give him the right to do what he did. Hamas does not promote peace, they promote violence, or at most a temporary cease fire. They do not promote equality, but segregation by gender and religion instead. If anyone wants peace she should hope that Hamas will get out of the equation.
You conveniently forget that Israel launched a preemptive strike after Egypt expelled peacekeepers from the Sinai peninsula, closed the Straits of Tiran to ships traveling to Israel and built up an invasion force on the Israeli border. Israel had a choice between waiting for Nasser to decide the time was right to kill Jews, or striking first. And I would imagine most countries would consider having one of their ports closed an act of war. How would the US feel if Russia announced that it would sink any shipping that attempted to enter New York harbor?
I suppose Israel could have taken the moral high ground and waited for an attack. That would certainly make all the anti-Semites out there happy.
Hi! I’m going to move into my house, which you for some reason decided to move into after I was hauled off in the dead of night and imprisoned unjustly without trial or basis other than my race. I’ll even let you stay there, if you’ll agree to be a halfway-civil roommate. Sound good to you?
Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
they are the mechanism by which Israel is stealing the entire area that was the Palestinian state
Just what Palestinian state do you speak of, sir?
short historical recap: The land of Israel has been the homeland of the people of Israel (nowadays known as Jews) for about 3300 years. The Israelis had independence in the countery for almost 1000 years. The temple, the worldwide center of God worship, stood on the temple mount for a total of 830 years. There has been Israelis living in the land of Israel for over 2280 years, icluding the past 2 millenia. Hardly anyone lived there there in the 19th century. Then suddenly there's an increasing movement of Israelis and Arabs into the country, Arabs at higher numbers than Israelis so that by 1948 the Arabs in the country outnumber the Israelis 2 to 1. The Israelis mainly kept to themselves, but the Arabs attacked Israeli towns during their rebellion against the French in ~1921, and performed pogroms against the Israelis in many areas in the country in 1929. The Israelis established a self-defence organization called Hagana (which literally means "defense"). A group broke off called Etzel (which is an acronym for "Nation Military Organization") and a group broke off those called Lechi (acronym for "Warriors of the Liberty of Israel"). The Hagana only did self defence, but the Etzel and Lechi also retaliated and in some cases took the initiative in the hoatilities. in 1936 the Arabs rebelled against the British but have also targeted the Israelis until 1939, when the rebellion was quelched. in 1947 the UN decided to partition the western bank of Israel between the Arabs and the Israelis. Hostilities continued. Months later Israel declared independence, and two days later was attacked by 7 Arab countries, only 4 of which share borders with the state of Israel. Syria, Jordan, and Egypt absorbed the lands the UN allocated to the "Arab Country", a country which has never existed in the first place. The PLO was formed in 1964, and it's foundation was the first time anyone claimed the existence of a Palestinian nation.
And an Ironic anecdote: Palestine is an Arab mispronunciation of the Hebrew word Plishti, which in English means "Invader".
But I guess no one cares. Supporting the Invaders, whatever their identity and claims, is alway good when the people they are assaulting are Israeli.
PS I might have been off by a year or two here and there in the dates.
Well yes I do know about the "rich Jewish archaeological history of Jewish civilization" do you? have you read Ilan Pappe?
http://www.redress.btinternet.co.uk/mqumsiyeh2.htm
And read this:
http://www.fromoccupiedpalestine.org/node/1494
It is almost certain that many of the Palestinians are descendants of the (Jewish) occupants of
Palestine in the 1st century of the modern era who converted to Islam.
Do you know about Palestinian culture or do you believe that Palestine was a "land without people for a people without land"?
The Jews are not a race - they are a religious group.
There is a human race - I believe that there is no reasonable definition of "race" that accords the term to Jews - or to Arabs for that matter.
And 435 survived because of shelter and assistance by their Arab neighbours.
Here we are again with short and selective momery. Forgetting the Israelis have lived in, and had sovereignty over Israel for way linger than anyone else. That the Israelis were there way longer than the newcomer Arabs, were here to greet them when they arrived, and never left. So yeah, if you only look back at the last 100 years you'd think Israelis are European foreigners, when in fact they forced into exile and didn't come back because they couldn't. The land was unuhabitable untile we returned and turned swamps into fields and deserts into forests, which is also the time when Arabs started flocking into our country in droves, to the point where the newcomers outnumbered the natives. And it's at that very convenient point in time, while ignoring all the Arab violence, that the European and American memory of this region begins. So people want to blame the Israelis. If the facts are inconvenient then crop them to fit.
Except that the Israeli state explicitly defines itself as the state of the Jewish ethnic nation.
"Jews did WTC"
Flamebait? I thought this was a geek forum.
It's a reference to the hilarious GNAA troll that CNN thought was legit and aired portions of..
Paula Zahn is a howl!
Safe link:
http://www.poetv.com/video.php?vid=13965
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
You have not been reading what I sent. The Israeli leaders admit that they had no expectation that Egypt would invade.
And oh the usual "anti-semite" slur!
"We don't need anybody's invitation. We stole the land fair and square from it's original inhabitants creating hundreds of thousands of refugees" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugee#Refugees_from_1948_War I corrected your post for your to reflect the historical reality, you're welcome.
Tired of all the isms, don't exploit people as an employer, or a government, mmmmK?
With this database and the wall between the occupied territories why should I eat kosher salt? Sure, they have it in every cooking show, but if you don’t get enough iodine, you become sick. I bet, Whoopi Goldberg doesn’t eat kosher. Iodine is also good to have in case of nuclear attacks and Isreal has nuclear weapons.
What? - Off topic and completely incoherent?? - I thought that was the theme.
Just a guess but the flamebait mod might have something to do with his username.....
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
"I hope the fear of change and progress will not deter MKs from supporting the bill," Sheetrit said before the vote. I know panic has been stirred by those wishing to frighten the public."
Like, say, the Israeli government?
I just don't see the point of this. They will probably pass this off as something that helps against those evil terrorists, as always. I'm sure those rockets won't dare entering Israel as long as they don't have a biometric passport, right? And the hordes of suicide bombers will just turn around after jumping over the 8m wall, realizing they are not yet registered in the database.
(I'm aware that terrorism is indeed a problem in Israel, but things like these are simply not appropriate)
they were elected mainly because the previous group who did not support direct violence fell out of favour because Israel refused to negotiate with them
Actually, Fatah fell out of favor because they were corrupt as... well... words do not come easily to describe how extremely, extremely corrupt they were.
What did happen though was a bunch of racist "palestinians" who hated the Jews so much that they got up and left voluntarily.
No, they left to get out of the way of the invading Arab armies. They feared themselves caught between an Arab extermination machine and belligerent Zionists. Of course, the ones who had learned to get along with Jews became today's Israeli Arabs -- who sadly receive far more discrimination from Jewish racists than they deserve due to their association with their violent cousins over the Green Line.
Not at all. Jews are the natives of Israel. Many countries, as you said, killed or enslaved their natives, but only in Israel must the natives defend themselves from outside invasions and PR campaigns designed to paint us as an outside invasion. It's rather ironic, really.
And an Ironic anecdote: Palestine is an Arab mispronunciation of the Hebrew word Plishti, which in English means "Invader".
No it doesn't, Plishti means "Phillistine". It referred to the specifically Phillistine/Phonecian invaders who took over a small strip extending from Gaza up to modern-day Ashdod and ran a small trading society there. Since they were, after all, invaders, the Israelites hated them.
But anyway, I'm guessing you're Israeli or Jewish, right? I've never met anyone who knows our history so well and interprets it with such a Zionist view and doesn't belong ;-). For one thing, you spotted that the noun "Ben Yisrael" that described the Israelites in ancient times would today be translated into English as "Israeli".
Does all Jewish people across the World have same Haplotype?
I'd like to buy homeland for our 10 million people. http://twitter.com/mahadiga
Dear fucking God, Knesset, do you have any valid security reason for this? Everyone already has to carry a teudat zehut around 24/7 and submit to searches at every major building entrance. How will biometrics in a huge database no-doubt built by some friend of yours in the hi-tech industry prevent a suicide bombing or a rocket attack?
If the Knesset wants to do something about Israel's security they could try just about anything that's not such a blatant kick-back to industrial friends.
I believe that there is no reasonable definition of "race" that accords the term to Jews - or to Arabs for that matter.
No shit, since we both belong to the Semitic racial group. Of course, Ilan Pappe is not exactly an unbiased or reliable historian on the matter of Jewish civilization in Israel. It doesn't help that Benny Morris, a fellow of his "New Historian" school in Israel, has recently reversed his old positions right back to the old Zionist lines (and even before then criticized Pappe for his gullibility).
Not ony photo, also the fingerprints.
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
No; most were dragged out of their homeland against their will long before then, not that you probably know or care to learn about it.
Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
most were dragged out of their homeland against their will long before then
Generations before then, I should really say, so it’s not really accurate to say that they were. Their ancestors were.
Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
There is a human race - I believe that there is no reasonable definition of "race" that accords the term to Jews - or to Arabs for that matter.
By common ancestor... Jews are descended from Isaac, Arabs from Ishmael.
The ancestor you pick can be pretty arbitrary. You could just as justifiably say that all of the descendants of Abraham are one Abrahamic race. Cultural differences are helpful in making this determination, though, and religion is a significant influencer of culture.
Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
So a blockade is fine, as long as you don’t plan to invade?
Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
Annexing territory after military victory as Israel has done and continues to do with expanding the settlements is a crime against humanity under international law.
Well, shit. Better give back Texas. Hell, I can’t even begin to imagine what would happen to national borders if we discredited all annexes made by military victory. The United States would consist of what... Manhattan and Alaska? The Louisiana Purchase was made from the French, not the natives, so I don’t know if that one would fly either...
Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
No it doesn't, Plishti means "Phillistine". It referred to the specifically Phillistine/Phonecian invaders who took over a small strip extending from Gaza up to modern-day Ashdod and ran a small trading society there. Since they were, after all, invaders, the Israelites hated them.
It’s spelled with one L, and he’s right anyway.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine#Origin_of_name
The name “Palestine” is the cognate of an ancient word meaning “Philistines” or “Land of the Philistines”.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philistines#Etymology
The etymology of the word into English is from Old French Philistin, from Late Latin Philistinus, from Late Greek Philistinoi (Phylistiim in the Septuagint), from Hebrew P’lishtim, (See, e.g., 1 Samuel 17:26, 17:36; 2 Samuel 1:20; Judges 14:3), “people of P’lesheth” (“Philistia”); cf. Akkadian Palastu, Egyptian Palusata; the word probably is the people’s name for itself.
Biblical scholars often trace the word to the Semitic root p-l-sh (Hebrew: [unicode]) which means to divide, go through, to roll in, cover or invade, with a possible sense in this name as “migrant” or “invader”.
Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
That was done before there was international law covering the rules of war and was alas immoral and a done deal, but yes I think we ought to for example give Native Americans more reservation land and compensation for the land stolen from them. As for Texas screw the Spaniards who were *also* land thieves but yes it would be nice if we were moral enough to choose to compensate the native people displaced. As for Israel their *illegal* land theft took place in 1967 well after the rules of wars prohibited nations from annexing land to their territory. That makes this a *legal* case as opposed to the moral case in the case of U.S. land theft. This makes the surviving Israelis leadership both civilian and military from the 1967 war criminals who ought to be prosecuted and locked away, as should the current leadership that illegally annexes land through the separation (apherteid) wall and through settlement expansion. A pox on the state of Israel and all it stands for which it has gained through suffering and commission of crimes. All the American Jews who support this criminal state are also complicit in these crimes IMO. Same for Americans who actively support our own American war criminals BOTH Bush and Obama.
Tired of all the isms, don't exploit people as an employer, or a government, mmmmK?
If you can't see the difference from the U.S. immoral but sadly at the time legal acts and Israel's clearly illegal acts there is no hope for you.
Uh, the only difference I see, and the only distinction you’ve drawn, is the fact that one took place before the laws saying you shouldn’t do it, and the other occurred after them. In other words, it’s okay to be immoral as long as you have some crusty old paper that says it’s okay... or at least, there isn’t some crusty old paper forbidding it.
You cynical conservatives are all about "the rule of law," except when you aren't of course
Actually we’re about right and wrong. Laws are often good indicators of right and wrong, but not always perfect ones.
Anyway, what’s the point. From your sig, I can see that you apparently think the left is actually about reducing divisiveness... despite the fact that the left brings up the race issue at every possible opportunity and consistently blames the previous administration for what they themselves did much of, being in control of both houses of Congress. Do I expect you to approach this rationally either? Nah.
Is it my turn to sigh?
Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
Phillistine is a mispronunciation of the Biblical word Plishti. Whether they chose that name or if they were dubbed so by the Israelis, but even if it's the former, we still have a very interesting and ironic historical coincidence.
I'm not sure the Israelis hated them. so far as I can tell, after Joshua's conquests the Israelis haven't really fought anything but wars of self defense until at least king david, and possibly even later. It were the Plishtim who have been encrouching on the territory of the Israeli tribes and trying to gain domination over them. I don't remeber all the details of the wars between Israel and Plashet, but sometimes they won, and sometimes we did. Sometimes they ruled over us, sometimes they didn't. Eventually king David conquered them, and they were conquered from us by Egypt about 60 years later.
Ben Israel (Son of Israel), Ish Israel (Man of Israel), Israel, Israeli, Am Israel (People of Israel),: all these and more are used to desribed the nation and individual members of the nation of Israel. Nowadays the term is misused to refer to any person who has been granted citizenship by the state of Israel, regardless of whether or not they are members of our nation. The term Jew oroginally meant a member of the tribe of Juda, then a member of the kingdom of Juda, and later a member of the nation of Israel.
BTW, all that I wrote I wrote from memory while attending class, so if therte are any mistakes, please forgive me. I am distracted and haven't reviewed the facts for a while. On that note I'll make 2 corrections to my previous post:
1. The Israelis have lived in Israel continuosly for over 3280 years until today, with a single 50-year break caused by being forceably exiled by the Babilonians, and forbidden to return until a Persian king finally gave us permission (he may have been the son of Ester, which would make hime Israeli).
2. The Arab mispronunciation of the Hebrew word "Plashet" is Falastin. Arabic doesn't have a P, so they can't even properly pronounce the name they adopted for themselves.
And note -- for whomever moderates this comment... I did not write it as "Flamebait" -- I wrote it to provide a little "outside-of-the-box" thinking. One way to alter fundamentalist mindsets is to force them to think about alternative solutions which may be workable compromises. However my position stands that there is an inherent contradiction between positions of many religions and science. In order to believe in fundamentalist positions one largely has to embrace "faith" and do no critical analysis of the premises or stories. And that is why during my teenage years (when I learned enough about science and rational thought) I gave up being an individual who believed in the teachings of the Catholic religion and became an agnostic. One could make arguments that the Jewish and Islamic fundamentalist teachings are similar "historical artifacts" (largely before scientific methods were validated). The only rational explanation I can find for the "miracles" of Jesus (if they are not simply myths) is that he might have been an alien who might have had the ability to manipulate matter using nanotechnology (or other equivalently advanced technology), e.g. nanorobots/nanoreplicators under mind control. These would place most religions on seriously swampy ground and the only 2 explanations I can offer are (a) that we are being manipulated by an advanced alien civilization (perhaps as an experiment) or (b) that we are all running in an extremely large computer simulation. And since those alternatives seem unprovable (to me) -- being an agnostic is the proper choice.
What was the percentage of buildings and land the Palestinians owned, versus the percentage of land the Turks of the Ottoman Empire owned? Because, what if the Turks owned like 85% of the land? They were forced to give it up after WWI... but that still doesn't make it the Palestinians' any more than if my theoretical landlord sells my building to someone else. And, arguably, the Palestinians already have a country... called Jordan. After all, it's the same ethnic group, just on the other side of the Jordan River (hence Trans-jordan to Jordan).
There are four boxes used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order.
So the buildup of troops and tanks, the saber rattling, the "let's drive the Jews into sea" talk, closing a major shipping port, all that was just for fun. No harm, no foul?