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How To Build a Quantum Propulsion Machine

KentuckyFC writes "According to quantum mechanics, a vacuum will be filled with electromagnetic waves leaping in and out of existence. It turns out that these waves can have various measurable effects, such as the Casimir-Polder force, which was first measured accurately in 1997. Just how to exploit this force is still not clear. Now, however, a researcher at an Israeli government lab suggests how it could be possible to generate propulsion using the quantum vacuum. The basic idea is that pushing on the electromagnetic fields in the vacuum should generate an equal and opposite force. The suggestion is that this can be done using nanoparticles that interact with the vacuum's electric and magnetic fields, generating the well-known Lorentz force. In most cases, the sum of Lorentz forces adds up to zero. But today's breakthrough is the discovery of various ways to break this symmetry and so use the quantum vacuum to generate a force. The simplest of these is simply to rotate the particles. So the blueprint for a quantum propulsion machine described in the paper is an array of addressable nanoparticles that can be rotated in the required way. Although such a machine will need a source of energy, it generates propulsion without any change in mass. As the research puts it with magesterial understatement, this might have practical implications."

392 comments

  1. This can be done using nanoparticles by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    I bet this could be done even easier with cats, but the ASPCA people won't like it.

    1. Re:This can be done using nanoparticles by Dachannien · · Score: 2, Funny

      Not to mention the International Buttered Toast Society.

    2. Re:This can be done using nanoparticles by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I love the IBTS.

      Member since 2003.

    3. Re:This can be done using nanoparticles by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

      Only if you go back to EUROPE.

    4. Re:This can be done using nanoparticles by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

      Nor the People Eating Tasty Animals.

    5. Re:This can be done using nanoparticles by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well sure if we have the cats locked in a room with a bridge extending or part of it (with no floor underneath), we simply need to open the bridge at an interval to drop the cats into the magma below. The faster the interval, the more thrust generated.

    6. Re:This can be done using nanoparticles by Lord+Pillage · · Score: 1

      Have your cat spayed or neutroned?

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    7. Re:This can be done using nanoparticles by burisch_research · · Score: 1

      <pedantic>

      try { Signature mysig = new cleverAttempt(); } catch(NonCleverSignatureException e) { postanyway(); }

      try { Signature mysig = new CleverAttempt(); } catch(NonCleverSignatureException e) { postanyway(); }

      Constructor of CleverAttempt must be public, and therefore starts with a capital letter. Fixed that for you.
      </pedantic>

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  2. So , , , by DinDaddy · · Score: 3, Funny

    Vacuum doesn't suck, it pushes?

    1. Re:So , , , by 2names · · Score: 2, Informative

      Vacuum doesn't suck, it blows?

      FTFY. Now queue the Spaceballs jokes.

      --
      "I'm just here to regulate funkiness."
    2. Re:So , , , by samkass · · Score: 1

      Vacuum doesn't suck-- everything ELSE blows.

      --
      E pluribus unum
    3. Re:So , , , by Yvan256 · · Score: 3, Funny

      Colonel Sandurz: It's Mega Maid. She's gone from suck to blow!

    4. Re:So , , , by 2names · · Score: 1

      Touché.

      --
      "I'm just here to regulate funkiness."
    5. Re:So , , , by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hi-yo! Despite the flame bait content, that's some classic put-down material. Its going in the vault.

    6. Re:So , , , by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      sudden decompression sucks

      Space Quest joke :)

    7. Re:So , , , by AlastairLynn · · Score: 1

      That got modded 'Informative'?

  3. Call me pedantic but... by loafula · · Score: 3, Insightful

    doesn't the introduction of particles make it NOT a vacuum?

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    FOXTROT UNIFORM CHARLIE KILO
    1. Re:Call me pedantic but... by seededfury · · Score: 5, Funny

      You don't need to vacuum if there are no particles.

    2. Re:Call me pedantic but... by Luyseyal · · Score: 5, Informative

      It turns out that there is no such thing as a classical vacuum. Instead, you have a state where particle/antiparticle pairs are spontaneously created and destroyed with typically net zero force. So, the definition of vacuum has been reformed.

      -l

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    3. Re:Call me pedantic but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ha Ha... you got troll rating for your lame joke attempt!

    4. Re:Call me pedantic but... by AP31R0N · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      i wish i could mod this up, my points just expired.

      +1 Funny

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    5. Re:Call me pedantic but... by FTWinston · · Score: 2, Informative

      They're not launching these spinning particles into the vacuum, they're just spinning while attached on the ass-end of your space ship.

      Alternatively (if you're talking about the other particles), see the other response.

    6. Re:Call me pedantic but... by Yvan256 · · Score: 1

      So what you're saying is... it's a rock'n roll vacuum?

    7. Re:Call me pedantic but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

      worthless idiotic mods have no clue what troll actually means. being 12 year olds raging cause wow is patching on their snow day they thought maybe the post was from a low iq green skin.

    8. Re:Call me pedantic but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    9. Re:Call me pedantic but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >> maybe the post was from a low iq green skin

      Oh come on! leave us Americans alone dude.

    10. Re:Call me pedantic but... by brian0918 · · Score: 1

      God bless the Baby Jesus and His matter-creating activities!

    11. Re:Call me pedantic but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So; where does this sit in the AGW slugfest?

    12. Re:Call me pedantic but... by Sponge+Bath · · Score: 1

      Roomba: "Norman coordinate... boop, boop, boooooooop."

    13. Re:Call me pedantic but... by SlowMovingTarget · · Score: 1

      No he's saying it sucks less once you get used to it.

    14. Re:Call me pedantic but... by drijen · · Score: 1
    15. Re:Call me pedantic but... by gjt · · Score: 1

      If you consider a vacuum to be the absence of air pressure, then it is still a vacuum - there are no air or other molecules/atoms/hadrons inside the vacuum. But if you imagine a clear glass bottle with all of the air sucked out of it, the fact that you can hold it up in the air and see through it tells you that light particles (photons) are moving into the bottle (through the glass), entering and exiting, before hitting your eye. Photons are the force carrying particles for the electromagnetic force.

    16. Re:Call me pedantic but... by mrogers · · Score: 2, Insightful
      It turns out that there is no such thing as a classical vacuum.

      So... you're saying that nothing's impossible? Or just that we ain't seen nothing yet?

    17. Re:Call me pedantic but... by Lord+Pillage · · Score: 2, Funny

      No, on a rock 'n roll vacuum you can turn it up to a net force of 11!

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    18. Re:Call me pedantic but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If a particle and antiparticle pair are created and destroyed in a vacuum, and no-one sees it, did it ever really exist?

    19. Re:Call me pedantic but... by Nefarious+Wheel · · Score: 3, Funny

      So... you're saying that nothing's impossible? Or just that we ain't seen nothing yet?

      Nothing is sacred! Bow down before it!

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    20. Re:Call me pedantic but... by mhelander · · Score: 3, Funny

      "worthless idiotic mods have no clue what troll actually means."

      For once I have to agree. He's been modded "Troll", but reading a bit between the lines

        "...was from a low iq green skin".

      It is clear this guy should have been modded "Orc".

    21. Re:Call me pedantic but... by blair1q · · Score: 1

      Your Hoover won't work in outer space.

      Think about it.

    22. Re:Call me pedantic but... by weirdcrashingnoises · · Score: 1

      Exactly! Everyone knows (except mods apparently) that the trolls have a higher IQ than Orcs.

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    23. Re:Call me pedantic but... by SoVeryTired · · Score: 1

      That's correct. This is effectly a consequence of Heisenberg's uncertainty principle (IANAP). If you knew there was nothing in the vacuum, you'd know its state precisely, which is forbidden by Heisenberg.

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    24. Re:Call me pedantic but... by Nefarious+Wheel · · Score: 1

      Your Hoover won't work in outer space.

      But my pressure-differential spacecraft dust cleansing device will! (opens tiny valve in hull of spacecraft) Muahahahaha!!!

      Oh.

      --
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    25. Re:Call me pedantic but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You mean like cold fusion?

    26. Re:Call me pedantic but... by RivenAleem · · Score: 1

      The particles introduced into the vacuum come in a selection of fragrances.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shake_'n'_Vac

  4. what are we talking here?! by Coraon · · Score: 1, Redundant

    Einstein had a theory about changing mass...are they saying they might have licked the problem of relatively?!

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    1. Re:what are we talking here?! by qmaqdk · · Score: 1, Troll

      Einstein had a theory about changing mass...are they saying they might have licked the problem of relativity?!

      What problem? Unification with quantum mechanics?

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      My UID is prime. Hah!
    2. Re:what are we talking here?! by JoshuaZ · · Score: 5, Informative

      That's not at all connected. What you are thining of is as velocity of an object increases its mass will increase (this is actually a little more complicated. This is only true for things with positive rest mass. If you have zero rest mass for example then this doesn't happen, but you will always be traveling at the speed of light anyways. If you are a tachyon and hus have imaginary rest mass and move faster than the speed of light in a vacuum then what happens as you change velocity is more complicated). This will still happen. The key to this sort of drive is that you don't *lose* mass as part of your reaction. Rockets, ion engines, and pretty much every other method of moving things requires you to push against something else to move. A rocket works by sending out particles from one end and so conservation of mass forces it in the other direction. An ion engine works the same way but instead of using hot fast particles uses little ions accelerated by a magnetic field.

      The key to this sort of engine is that it doesn't do that, It can accelerate without throwing off mass. But the object will still gain mass as it accelerates nearer to the speed of light. In practice, the second part really won't matter for any practical engine since we will be moving so much slower than the speed of light. The key idea at some level is that you don't need to lose fuel to accelerate (you just lose energy).

    3. Re:what are we talking here?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uhh...3800361*8?

    4. Re:what are we talking here?! by bmearns · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the thorough information. How does this throwing off mass thing relate to electric cars? Do electric cars accelerate without loosing mass? If not, they must be loosing mass as the battery discharges, right? So how would this vacuum mobile be any different?

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    5. Re:what are we talking here?! by tylersoze · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Well technically the car is losing a slight bit of mass because of the energy change, but that's not relevant to the propulsion, a car isn't a rocket. The car is pushing against the earth and transferring that momentum to the earth.

    6. Re:what are we talking here?! by natehoy · · Score: 1

      Cars move by pushing round bits called "wheels" against a friction surface called "the ground". So the propulsion system itself is a friction system and does not involve the loss of mass.

      The article is talking about this new propulsion system as an alternative to systems that involve losses of mass, like rockets for example.

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    7. Re:what are we talking here?! by JoshuaZ · · Score: 1

      Er, "conservatin of momentum" forces the rocket backwards not "conservation of mass." I need to learn to use preview.

    8. Re:what are we talking here?! by Myrcutio · · Score: 1

      electric cars are based on magnetic coils producing a kinetic force. Put an electric car in a zero G vacuum and you won't go anywhere. The difference is that a quantum propulsion engine does not rely on a tangible surface to push against.

    9. Re:what are we talking here?! by bmearns · · Score: 1

      Thanks, Nate! I couldn't for the life of me figure out how my car made it to work every morning, let alone what those ugly round bits were.

      Seriously though, thanks for clarifying. I kept hearing about propulsion without mass-loss like it was some kind of yet-to-be-achieved holy grail; I didn't make the connection that it was specifically in the context of a non friction-based system that this was such a big deal. It's clear now.

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    10. Re:what are we talking here?! by Bakkster · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the thorough information. How does this throwing off mass thing relate to electric cars? Do electric cars accelerate without loosing mass? If not, they must be loosing mass as the battery discharges, right? So how would this vacuum mobile be any different?

      They accelerate through road friction. In a car, you exert a force on the road in the oposite direction that you are accelerating (Newton's Third Law). In space, where there is nothing to push against, generally you need to throw mass behind you such that the force on what you throw behind you is equal to your force forward.

      This technique removes the need to carry mass to propel from the ship to balance the forces. Instead of energy going into stored propellant which is lost, the energy performs a reaction with the vaccuum to produce a net force against the ship with no loss of mass or propellant.

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    11. Re:what are we talking here?! by Chris+Burke · · Score: 5, Informative

      Thanks for the thorough information. How does this throwing off mass thing relate to electric cars? Do electric cars accelerate without loosing mass?

      It's not about losing mass necessarily, it's about Newton's 3rd Law / Conservation of Momentum. For something to accelerate forward, something else (the surface of the earth) must accelerate in the opposite direction such that momentum is conserved.

      The concept of Conservation of Momentum and rocket propulsion is often explained using the analogy of a boat on the lake with a bunch of rocks in it. If you throw rocks off the back of the boat, conservation of momentum means your boat will be propelled forward. Now, that's a pretty silly way to propel a boat when you can just use a paddle or propeller to push the water backwards and your boat forward.

      Rockets in space don't have that luxury. So they pretty much have to carry a bunch of "reaction mass" with them and throw it at high speed out the ass end of the rocket.

      This invention, if it pans out, would be more like a propeller for spacecraft, pushed by and pushing against the short-lived particles that spring in and out of existence in vacuum. I have to imagine that the amount of thrust would be miniscule, but not having to carry reaction mass would be a huge advantage.

      --

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    12. Re:what are we talking here?! by natehoy · · Score: 1

      No worries, thanks for taking my snarkiness with the humor I intended. Yeah, that was it. :)

      Yes, the big deal about this is that it neither uses reaction nor friction, it's apparently a totally new kind of propulsion system if it works out.

      Either that or the "friction" is against a medium we don't understand yet.

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    13. Re:what are we talking here?! by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      Technically, the car does lose mass though. When the wheel turns, it pushes away from the ground it has hold of. It just picks up new mass with the next part of the wheel as it moves forward. The same principal could be applied to a space vehicle if it had a big scoop on the front to catch dust, and then accelerated it and shot it out the back. The ship would accellerate and 'not lose mass'. Much like this hypothetical space ship, your car just refuels it's mass at the same speed it uses it up.

      Not that any of that really matters.

    14. Re:what are we talking here?! by Unequivocal · · Score: 1

      Well said - whether or not there is friction against a new type of medium or not, conceptually this seems like a great way to understand the forces involved. The spaceship burns energy to "push" against something, rather than expel something..

    15. Re:what are we talking here?! by Nyeerrmm · · Score: 1

      As long as we're correcting minor mistakes, ion thrusters use an electric grid to accelerate ions, not magnetic one... not to be pedantic or anything.

    16. Re:what are we talking here?! by furby076 · · Score: 1

      The key idea at some level is that you don't need to lose fuel to accelerate (you just lose energy).

      This is what i don't understand. Energy in fuel is stored in a chemical, until it is converted. If you lose energy, which is transformed by a chemical, won't you lose the chemical? In other words lose the fuel? Going by your idea, if you lose energy, but not the mass - does that leave us with some kind of waste material (which is basically what things like exhaust fumes from a car)? What happens to the substance? Is it reusable so your one gallon of gas is an infinite gallon of gas?

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    17. Re:what are we talking here?! by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      Rockets in space don't have that luxury. So they pretty much have to carry a bunch of "reaction mass" with them and throw it at high speed out the ass end of the rocket.

      You can trade off how much mass for how fast you toss it, with the limit case being a photon drive, which shoots out photons (very low mass, obviously, but naturally at the speed of light.) The input energy required for that is about 300MW per Newton of thrust (for comparison, the 3 Mile Island nuclear plant generates 800MW.) Since this is a momentum transfer drive -- and, hence, reaction drive -- it doesn't functionally change that, its just seems to be an alternative mechanism for acheiving the same effect as a photon drive. So, instead of pushing around lots of reaction mass, you've got to push around a giant power plant.

    18. Re:what are we talking here?! by Rakishi · · Score: 1

      The previous posted didn't get it quite right so let me explain. In space propulsion there are two conceptually different "fuels":
      a) Fuel: What you use to get energy.
      b) Reaction mass: What you use that energy to chuck out the back so you can move.

      In a chemical engine the two are the same, the byproducts of getting energy are used as reaction mass. In a nuclear engine for example they wouldn't be, fuel could be your nuclear material and reaction mass could be water. An ion engine likewise gets energy and reaction mass from different things. In a theoretical nuclear powered photon engine they'd be the same again, fuel turns into energy and you chuck that energy, or a part of it, directly out the back.

      This technology allows us to not need reaction mass which for current space craft is probably the limiting factor. You still need to use fuel to get energy and have all the resulting effects of that. Limit on that is of course pure matter-energy conversion through say antimatter-matter annihilation.

    19. Re:what are we talking here?! by amliebsch · · Score: 1

      I wonder if the principle could be applied in the opposite direction: turning mass velocity in a vacuum into energy.

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    20. Re:what are we talking here?! by geekoid · · Score: 1

      So if you created a drive that only through off the mass you gains due to velocity, you mass would remain constant as your velocity increased.

      Now you have FTL.

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    21. Re:what are we talking here?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The key to this sort of engine is that it doesn't do that, It can accelerate without throwing off mass.

      But it will still need to use up some kind of fuel to rotate the particles to cause the acceleration... and once this fuel is used up, there is no point in hanging on to it any longer. It's just waste mass. So not throwing off mass, in this case, would be a handicap.

      Unless, I suppose, you used solar power. But I'm willing to bet this wouldn't be any more effective than a solar sail.

    22. Re:what are we talking here?! by planckscale · · Score: 1
      Would it be possible if every vehicle, person, ship, engine and everything else that contacts the ground were all pointing towards the East, and floored it, ran, whatever all at the same time, the earth slowed it's rotation?

      Just thinkin...

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    23. Re:what are we talking here?! by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

      Yes (though probably not noticeably as earth has a LOT of angular momentum), but then as soon as they stopped all that momentum would be added back.

      Now if you started firing big rocks out of huge cannons at escape velocity, on the other hand...

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    24. Re:what are we talking here?! by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      The same principal could be applied to a space vehicle if it had a big scoop on the front to catch dust, and then accelerated it and shot it out the back.

      You mean like this?

      --
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    25. Re:what are we talking here?! by Chirs · · Score: 1

      The key is that with the proposed drive you don't run out of reaction mass...so you can keep accelerating as long as you have energy.

    26. Re:what are we talking here?! by jamesh · · Score: 1

      The key is that with the proposed drive you don't run out of reaction mass...so you can keep accelerating as long as you have energy.

      Kind of like the photon drive where you can keep accelerating as long as you have energy?

      I can't help but wonder if the energy required to turn these particles around isn't the missing side of the energy ledger that stops it being a reactionless drive.

  5. Those daring men in their quantum pushing machines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Well.

    A non-reaction mass drive. That makes my head hurt. It just gave a slight air of plausibility to a few million bad SF novels.

  6. Momentum Conservation by UnHolier+than+ever · · Score: 3, Interesting

    How does this preserve momentum conservation? In the Casimir effect, the force occurs between two plates; as the plates are pushed in opposite directions, total momentum is conserved. Here, it seems as though you get momentum out of thin air (although energy is reffered to as "being spent", but with no indication how).

    I call shenanignans!!

    1. Re:Momentum Conservation by EdZ · · Score: 4, Informative

      If you, you know, read the article, you'd know they're changing the momentum of the electromagnetic fields in a quantum vacuum. Thus, momentum is conserved.

    2. Re:Momentum Conservation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ianap but...

      as they're not venting anything to "push" against these "particles" they maintain a constant mass which is where i believe it relates to momentum conservation... i think you're using the casimir effect as a red herring... with a fricking "laser" on it's head (sorry couldn't resist after the first use of double quotes)

    3. Re:Momentum Conservation by tylersoze · · Score: 1

      My thoughts exactly. Not to mention if "energy is being spent" that means the mass of the object is decreasing (i.e. the whole mass-energy equivalence thing). If this effect is actually real, then somehow there's still energy being thrown out in the opposite direction to conserve momentum, so I'm not sure how it would be any different than any other form of propulsion. The only advantage I could see is that perhaps using this effect produces a higher specific impulse than other modes of propulsion?

    4. Re:Momentum Conservation by Rising+Ape · · Score: 0, Redundant

      You can't change the momentum of the vacuum. If the field is carrying momentum and energy, then it's not the vacuum - which is by definition the ground state.

      Sounds like nonsense to me.

    5. Re:Momentum Conservation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The law of conservation of momentum was repealed in 1905.

    6. Re:Momentum Conservation by tylersoze · · Score: 1

      OK from the article they're "changing the momentum of the electromagnetic fields in a quantum vacuum". Basically that just means they're throwing photons out the back. That is still going to decrease the rest of mass of whatever it is that powering it. So what's the specific impulse of this method?

    7. Re:Momentum Conservation by jameskojiro · · Score: 1

      You are simply converting potential electrical energy into real kinetic energy that is vectored in one direction.

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    8. Re:Momentum Conservation by Sir_Lewk · · Score: 2, Informative

      If you would read the article (a high order, I know), you would realize that, with quantum mechanics taken into consideration, there is no such thing as a classical vacuum. Hell, you could probaby get that just from reading the summary.

      --
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    9. Re:Momentum Conservation by david.given · · Score: 2, Informative
      I did read the article (well, the non-mathematical bits). I quote:

      Quantum fluctuations of the position or of the magneto-electric constant of particles do not affect the average value of their momentum, as a consequence of the conservation of momentum law. A propulsion engine may be designed by using for instance an addressable array of small magneto-electric particles or wires. Rotating (see Fig. 1) or aggregating (see Fig. 2) these particles will result in velocity:

      He brings up attitude control of satellites as an example because, I think, it's a situation where very small amounts of momentum do useful work (you only need to rotate the satellite by a degree or so a day, he says). He's definitely talks about propulsion in the body, not just orientation.

      As reactionless drives are very much Weird Science, not mentioning propulsion in the abstract could well be entirely deliberate to make the article more publishable --- you may not that it's incredibly well referenced.

      I hope someone tests this soon; it sounds easy to do, and if it's true, it'll be an incredible breakthrough. Apart from producing awesome space drives it would also provide a way of coupling energy to momentum. As energy has dimensionality MASS.DISTANCE^2.TIME^-2 and momentum has dimensionality MASS.DISTANCE.TIME^-1, that would open up whole new areas of science to pick apart.

    10. Re:Momentum Conservation by Rising+Ape · · Score: 1

      Yes, I know that. In fact, I already knew that. What I said is still valid for the quantum vacuum - even when the ground state has a non-zero vacuum expectation value, it still has no direction of any kind. Hence, no momentum. "Pushing the vacuum" would mean exciting it to a state where it wasn't the vacuum any more, e.g. by creating photons and directing them out of the back of the rocket. Now that's fine, but hardly revolutionary.

    11. Re:Momentum Conservation by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

      Really? When magnetic fields repel each other, are there photons being expended?

      Just asking - I don't know. I thought that magnetic fields weren't made up of photons, but from your post, that's wrong?

      --
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    12. Re:Momentum Conservation by david.given · · Score: 1

      To EdZ: also, your parent just popped up and I realised you were actually replying to someone else. Er, oops! Sorry.

    13. Re:Momentum Conservation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Energy might be converted to motion in + and - one direction, but never in just + or - one direction, because that would violate Newton's third law of motion:

      "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction."

    14. Re:Momentum Conservation by meringuoid · · Score: 1
      If you, you know, read the article, you'd know they're changing the momentum of the electromagnetic fields in a quantum vacuum.

      So, they're pushing on photons? I wonder if this is going to end up equivalent to a photon rocket: wonderful if you're trying to save on reaction mass, terrible if you're trying to save on energy?

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    15. Re:Momentum Conservation by jameskojiro · · Score: 1

      What if the opposite reaction is the release of thermal energy in all directions?

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    16. Re:Momentum Conservation by tylersoze · · Score: 1

      Yes that's correct, virtual photons. A photon is the carrier of the electromagnetic force and is the quanta that makes up the field, so any electromagnetic interaction can be thought of as an exchange of virtual photons, that is, photons that appear spontaneously out of the vacuum. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_particle

    17. Re:Momentum Conservation by radtea · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You can't change the momentum of the vacuum.

      "You can't see moons around Jupiter. If there were, it would mean the Earth isn't the center of the universe." (Galileo's critics really said this.)

      "You can't sail across the Atlantic to China. If you could, it would mean the Earth was round" (many, many errors on all sides of that statement!)

      "Anyone who is talks about the practical uses of nuclear power is talking moonshine" (Rutherford in 1920, more-or-less.)

      Scientific progress is the process of tearing down previously believed truths as well as discovering new, hopefully somewhat less contingent truths (although of course non-zero contingency always remains, which is a big deal to philosophers,mathematicians and other insane people, but not something anyone else cares very much about.)

      People who have done actual calculations, rather than an arm-chair analysis on /., think that it is possible to change the momentum of vacuum modes, thereby making them non-vacuum modes (one would presume) by introducing asymmetries from rotating magneto-electric materials and in various other ways.

      Introducing asymmetries has long been know to produce real particles from the vacuum. One of the most dramatic theoretical instances of this is a step-function potential with more than twice the electron mass. If you solve the Dirac equation in this situation you get weird phenomena like negative transmission and reflection coefficients that are negative or greater than unity.

      The explanation is that such a large potential (so long as the step occurs over a scale of less than the Compton wavelength of the electron, which is about a pico-metre) has the ability to separate the virtual pairs that make up the "Dirac sea", thus turning them into actual particles (at the cost of the required amount of energy). If you could actualize this you could then accelerate the electron and positron to fire them off in the same direction, giving your apparatus a push in the process. At the most abstract level, what these guys are proposing is no different from that.

      --
      Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
    18. Re:Momentum Conservation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Really? When magnetic fields repel each other, are there photons being expended? Just asking - I don't know. I thought that magnetic fields weren't made up of photons, but from your post, that's wrong?

      They aren't made up of photons, but photons are exchanged when force is exchanged.

      The electromagnetic force operates via the exchange of messenger particles called photons and virtual photons.

    19. Re:Momentum Conservation by tylersoze · · Score: 1

      And to add to that, "real" photons are what make up electromagnetic waves, which are propagating changes in the electromagnetic field. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_radiation

    20. Re:Momentum Conservation by CroDragn · · Score: 1

      My understanding is that the virtual vacuum particles for an instant, act like any other particle, annihilate each other, and vanish. So this would essentially be "pushing" against the particles during the instant they exist, but as they then proceed to pop out of existence the next moment it's essentially as if the engine is pushing against nothing.

    21. Re:Momentum Conservation by natehoy · · Score: 1, Troll

      The terminology of the summary could certainly be improved a bit. The author defines a "quantum vacuum" early on as a vacuum that has electromagnetic waves present, then refers to the "quantum vacuum" as "the vacuum" through the rest of the article. The author should really have repeated the term "quantum vacuum" throughout, or chosen a better term (purified EM field?) to make it clear exactly what he/she was referring to.

      The EM fields within the quantum vacuum are technically what would be providing the force, not the entirety of the quantum vacuum itself. The interesting part is that the EM fields can push in a specific direction, while seemingly having nothing to push against.

      The issue with the theory is that it violates the Newtonian rule of conservation of momentum. This is, in effect, saying that you can have a force in one direction without an equal and opposite reaction. But quantum physicists claim to be able to bust Newtonian laws all the time, so we'll see how this one pans out. :)

      --
      "This post contains words, known to the State of California to cause thought. Wash brain thoroughly after reading."
    22. Re:Momentum Conservation by FibreOptix · · Score: 1

      Actually you're getting momentum out of less than thin air. The short answer is that photons are quasi-particles that are the quanta of the electromagnetic field, which you still have in the vacuum, and can do collisions with. See Surface Plasmon Resonance for a practical application of a natural phenomena that works precisely because of the conservation of momentum between a photon and plasmon polaritons.

    23. Re:Momentum Conservation by canajin56 · · Score: 1

      Doesn't sound different? A rocket or an ion thruster or a theoretical fission of fusion or antimatter thruster works by shooting shit out the back at low-to-high speeds, making you shoot forwards. In the air, you can use a big propeller / fan to push the air around you backwards at high speeds. You use fuel up spinning those fans, but its way more efficient fuel wise than just squirting diesel out the back with a pump. But of course, with no air to push around, you can't use a turbofan in space. This newish idea is that you can push against the virtual particles in a vacuum using this or that technique, and essentially get a space propeller. Will it get to 3000-9000 s specific impulse like the ion thrusters? Maybe not. But right now, all it has to do is beat 500 s from a rocket thruster, but still scale high enough to outdo an ion thruster, which, though highly efficient, is extremely large and produces an extremely tiny amount of thrust. And maybe it'll only be useful until all those fancy fusion thrusters scientists are making up become a reality...but even then, a reactionless maneuvering thruster would be much safer for use in docking maneuvers, than say, plasma plumes shooting out at relativistic speeds? Not as useful at fighting of a Kzin ambush though, so give and take I suppose.

      --
      ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI
    24. Re:Momentum Conservation by tylersoze · · Score: 1

      Introducing asymmetries has long been know to produce real particles from the vacuum. If you could actualize this you could then accelerate the electron and positron to fire them off in the same direction, giving your apparatus a push in the process.

      You know, I think a lot of us here understand basic physics well enough (and even have degrees in said subject) but are still trying to understand how this is any different than throwing photons out of the back of a rocket through some other means. Yes it's an interesting effect but what practical advantage does it offer over any other method? This is still just a reaction drive if I'm understanding this correctly. You throw some momentum in one direction to get an equal amount of momentum in the other direction.

    25. Re:Momentum Conservation by Chris+Burke · · Score: 4, Informative

      The issue with the theory is that it violates the Newtonian rule of conservation of momentum.

      No it doesn't. As Maxwell figured out long ago, EM field can carry momentum.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    26. Re:Momentum Conservation by bluesatin · · Score: 1

      Even though I have practically zero knowledge of the topic at hand, I can imagine the advantage is that this propulsion system means that you don't loose any mass while gaining acceleration.

      This means you don't have to lug around huge amounts of material to throw out the back of your spaceship, it just means you need some way of producing energy (solar cells?) to power the drive.

    27. Re:Momentum Conservation by Rising+Ape · · Score: 1

      Yes, but all that is perfectly conventional. You'd need to use some on board power source to produce the particles, which would need fuelling somehow. The energy requirements would be horrific, though it would indeed be efficient in terms of mass usage.

    28. Re:Momentum Conservation by joe_frisch · · Score: 1

      I can't tell from the article, but you probably generate an electromagnetic wave the carries the momentum. This would be similar to using a flash-light for propulsion - the light doesn't lose mass, but the photons do provide thrust.

      This isn't a recipe for a practical propulsion system but is is still interesting as a physics experiment.

    29. Re:Momentum Conservation by 42forty-two42 · · Score: 1

      Losing energy always results in a loss of rest mass, so there's nothing unexpected about that.

    30. Re:Momentum Conservation by John+Hasler · · Score: 1

      If you add equal and opposite momenta to each of the two virtual particles you've accomplished nothing. If you add more momentum to one than to the other (thereby propelling yourself) when they mutually annihilate some energy (and momentum) will be left over.

      --
      Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
    31. Re:Momentum Conservation by KlomDark · · Score: 1

      Yes, but you're not thinking fourth dimensionally - while the law cannot be avoided, there's a little loophole in that the equal and opposite reaction doesn't have to be right away.

      Once you get to your destination, then you unleash the opposite reaction and use it to get back home.

      Easy as throwing a hammer across the room.

    32. Re:Momentum Conservation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Isn't Maxwell saying that you can use quantum mechanics to violate thermodynamics a bit like Charlie Daniels saying you can produce gold by being a sufficiently good fiddle player?

      I hope this is as funny on paper as it is in my head...

    33. Re:Momentum Conservation by natehoy · · Score: 4, Informative

      An EM field can carry momentum, but this allows the momentum to go in only one direction.

      If I emit an EM field, it is pushing back against me as it emits (albeit VERY gently). When the EM field hits something, it imparts some or all of that momentum to the object it hits. The conservation of momentum has been maintained, because there are equal and opposite forces.

      Normally, drives do one of two things to move the object they are trying to move. They either eject mass at speed in the opposite direction (rockets) which involves the loss of mass or push against something like ground or air (wheels in a car, propellers on a plane) to pull themselves forward.

      In a frictionless vacuum, the only known propulsion system that works is a mass-ejection system like a rocket. You have nothing to push against that a friction drive needs, so you have to bring your own mass and throw it out to gain momentum. As you use your propellant mass, you lose it, so you have to carry some sort of mass and some sort of way of throwing it out really fast so you make the most of every gram of mass you eject.

      What this new theory is suggesting is that I can get the momentum for the cost of pure energy at one end, then use that momentum on the other end of the transaction for motion. Normally, I'd either have to have something to push against that would move back in the opposite direction as a result (or would be so huge that the opposing force would be negligible), or I'd have to eject mass.

      This drive would do neither - it's like pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps (quite literally) then using the energy of your pulling to allow you to move through the air. The conservation of momentum, equal and opposite reactions, etc - poof - all gone. This is truly a non-Newtonian drive in that it appears to break fundamental laws of Newtonian physics.

      Unless, of course, there is something that is "absorbing" the other side of the "equal and opposite" reaction, something outside our ability to perceive at this point, in which case this is a friction drive, we just haven't figured out what we are pushing against yet.

      Or, alternatively, the theory may be complete crap. That's possible too. :)

      --
      "This post contains words, known to the State of California to cause thought. Wash brain thoroughly after reading."
    34. Re:Momentum Conservation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've often wondered if it was possible to fab special chips with the right geometry to allow a net force in a direction by careful alignment of material such that virtual pairs got stuck in a consistant direction to pressure materials in a single direction. While it might work at the end of the day the forces involved are soo damn small it still wouldn't get me or an ant a workable hoverboard :( Maybe if we could do the same on a large scale in bulk? My math sucks.

      FWIW casimar force push two stationary plates together, not apart. I don't see any momentum issues as your pushing against the vaccume which has non-zero energy.

    35. Re:Momentum Conservation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here, it seems as though you get momentum out of thin air

      Nonsense, in this case we don't even have thin air, just a vacuum, do try to keep up here.

    36. Re:Momentum Conservation by Goaway · · Score: 1

      Hint: People knew the world was round two thousand years ago, and they didn't forget about it by the time of Columbus. Everybody with a clue knew the Earth was round. They mocked Columbus because he got his calculations all wrong and thought the way around the Earth was much shorter than it actually was. And they were right, he was totally off. He'd have died if there hadn't been a continent in his way to save his stupid ass.

    37. Re:Momentum Conservation by Goaway · · Score: 1

      I can imagine the advantage is that this propulsion system means that you don't loose any mass while gaining acceleration.

      That is also the case with throwing photons out the back of your rocket.

    38. Re:Momentum Conservation by Goaway · · Score: 1

      No?

    39. Re:Momentum Conservation by Goaway · · Score: 1

      Energy and momentum are different things. Each has to be conserved separately.

    40. Re:Momentum Conservation by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

      An EM field can carry momentum, but this allows the momentum to go in only one direction.

      If I emit an EM field, it is pushing back against me as it emits (albeit VERY gently). When the EM field hits something, it imparts some or all of that momentum to the object it hits. The conservation of momentum has been maintained, because there are equal and opposite forces.

      Right. The EM field carries momentum in one direction, your vessel carries an equal amount in the opposite direction, momentum is conserved and your ship is moving. What's the issue here?

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    41. Re:Momentum Conservation by Beezlebub33 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Does a demonstration of the Casimir effect produce energy? If not, based on your reasoning above, why not? It would seem to me that having the plates really close to each other, so that only certain wavelengths could exist in the space between them would result in non-uniform or changed virtual particles, so that something would be left over.

      --
      The more people I meet, the better I like my dog.
    42. Re:Momentum Conservation by natehoy · · Score: 1

      The EM field never leaves the ship in this drive.

      --
      "This post contains words, known to the State of California to cause thought. Wash brain thoroughly after reading."
    43. Re:Momentum Conservation by ceoyoyo · · Score: 2, Informative

      You're making an assumption -- that there is no effect on the ambient EM fields -- that the article does not support.

      There is no reason to believe that the vacuum fields will be undisturbed by this process.

    44. Re:Momentum Conservation by Chris+Burke · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yes it does. The field is generated from the virtual particles in the vacuum, not from the ship. It is that field that they add momentum to -- the article explicitly mentions doing this -- adding equal and opposite momentum to their ship. They aren't trying to 'drag' the quantum vacuum field along with them. That would be impossible, not a method of propulsion, and violate conservation of momentum. The actual idea, however, does not.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    45. Re:Momentum Conservation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ah semantics.

      How about that you don't have to carry all your reaction-mass with you? Just thinking out loud here.

      If you're pushing against the vacuum, that's (possibly) a lot more efficient than carrying a metric assload of mass to toss out the back, PLUS a metric assload of fuel to provide the energy for the mass you toss out the back. Sounds like a darn good trade-off to me

    46. Re:Momentum Conservation by blair1q · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It would be if Charlie Daniels is right. Or that that was what he was saying.

      Maxwell says you can conserve momentum and still gain propulsion by emitting radio waves.

      BTW, that isn't the laws of thermodynamics, more like the laws of motion. It's a momentum and energy not being the same thing and each having its own conservation law, sort of thing.

      But take heart. Most jokes are funny not because they are right, but because they follow the syntactic and semantic patterns of jokes. Same deal with Republican political slogans. Total bullshit, but excellent clap-trap.

    47. Re:Momentum Conservation by Chris+Burke · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Quite the opposite, in fact. The article explicitly states that it would be adding momentum to the ambient EM field.

      It's possible the idea won't work, but as given it definitely does not violate conservation of momentum.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    48. Re:Momentum Conservation by Nefarious+Wheel · · Score: 1

      If you, you know, read the article, you'd know they're changing the momentum of the electromagnetic fields in a quantum vacuum. Thus, momentum is conserved.

      By changing the spin orientation of quanta.

      Hmm... the math and physics of all this makes me dizzy. I know!! I'll call it a "Spindizzy"!

      --
      Do not mock my vision of impractical footwear
    49. Re:Momentum Conservation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is why the symmetry violation is important.

      This might make it easier:

      In a quantum vacuum, virtual particle pairs (with no mass, because they are virtual) spring in and out of existance, always perfectly opposed to each other so that there is 0 net charge. This drive imposes an energy field on this phenomenon so that there is an X% chance that these particles will not be equally anti-charged to each other. This disrupts the equilibrium of the vacuum.

      Further of interest, is that any virtual particle that escapes its own interaction with it's antipartner becomes real. This is the basis behind EG, Hawking radiation.

      This means that this drive "works", by breaking the symmetry, and causing an x% chance that a virtual particle pair will be disrupted, and that real particles will be created. (These particles will likely have charge, but not mass, and will be equivalent in energy to the field imposed upon the vacuum which created them.) These real particles have EM charge, and can be "Pushed" against by a static EM field. The EM field of the ship loses energy to the "hawking radiation" particles in an equivilent exchange with the forward change in momentum of the craft.

      I would expect that this prototype design has a VERY VERY small symmetry breaking probability at this moment in time, but given time, it could prove very interesting indeed.

    50. Re:Momentum Conservation by Interoperable · · Score: 1

      But the unexcited electromagnetic quantum field sure doesn't. It would have to be excited to carry momentum, either by real macroscopic fields or real particles (photons).

      --
      So if this is the future...where's my jet pack?
    51. Re:Momentum Conservation by natehoy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Sorry, the "coolness" of this theory is hard to explain, which is also the reason the theory is so unlikely (but would be SO COOL if it's true!)

      Currently, if I want to move an object, I need to receive and/or cause some sort of external reaction in the opposite direction to do it. Either I push against something or something pushes against me, or I eject mass in one direction at speed to move in another. Something in my surrounding environment is required for me to act against, or I need to change the environment by ejecting mass into it.

      So an airplane can move because it's pulling air in from in front of it and shoving it out behind it very fast, and that force allows it to move forward. As the aircraft moves forward, a bunch of air is pushed backward to make it happen.

      A rocket leaves a lot of mass behind, and even a car has an unmeasurably small effect on the rotation of the Earth (or shifts stuff around, which you can observe by spinning tires on gravel when the friction gets too low).

      A ship built using this theory would use nothing in its surrounding environment, and would introduce nothing to that environment, at least as it relates to propulsion.

      It could travel through a vacuum without leaving a trail of reaction mass behind it, so with a limitless supply of energy it could continue on for a limitless amount of time.

      Currently, even the best mass-ejection drives are limited by energy AND mass storage capacity. True, in many cases, the fuel and mass are the same thing (explode the fuel into energy and the exhaust is the mass), but this allows you to take mass out of the equation, so you don't have to carry any reaction mass, you only need lots of energy.

      I'm not saying this will create a particularly practical engine, though maybe it could. But the theory totally busts Newtonian physics (by busting the "Equal and Opposite" law) or expands our understanding of the Universe significantly (by introducing a new level of matter we are pushing against).

      --
      "This post contains words, known to the State of California to cause thought. Wash brain thoroughly after reading."
    52. Re:Momentum Conservation by Nefarious+Wheel · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It's hard for an old SF fan like me to admit it, but I think the implications of this paper on possibly how EM fields propagate might be even more interesting than its application as a drive. EM is an electric field collapsing to become a magnetic field, which collapses to become an electric field, rinse and repeat. How often this happens is the frequency of the EM wave system. Aren't we running up against some sort of frequency limit here, to get EM affect against quanta? Is there a maximum number for this? And at these higher limits, will there be some split between the E and the M portions of the wave? Jus' curious, but I suspect there's a few papers waiting to be writ along those lines.

      --
      Do not mock my vision of impractical footwear
    53. Re:Momentum Conservation by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

      A ship built using this theory would use nothing in its surrounding environment, and would introduce nothing to that environment, at least as it relates to propulsion.

      Yes it would, it would introduce momentum, the only thing that ultimately matters for propulsion.

      but this allows you to take mass out of the equation, so you don't have to carry any reaction mass, you only need lots of energy.

      You can do the same thing with a photon drive.

      I'm not saying this will create a particularly practical engine, though maybe it could. But the theory totally busts Newtonian physics (by busting the "Equal and Opposite" law)

      No it doesn't, because it explicitly relies upon Newton's 3rd Law.

      Instead of trying to explain the theory incorrectly again, why don't you try re-reading the article so you understand it better?

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    54. Re:Momentum Conservation by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

      That's the whole point. The rotating nanoparticles add momentum to the field that it otherwise wouldn't have via the Lorenz force. It's not 'stealing' momentum from the field in some kind of crazy zero-point energy scam. It's using the field as something to push against.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    55. Re:Momentum Conservation by natehoy · · Score: 1

      I've re-read it several times, but apparently I'm misunderstanding it.

      Because I was reading it that the ship built momentum by getting it from an internally-contained quantum vacuum, and that would seem to violate the Newtonian law of "equal and opposite reaction" because nothing is being ejected from the drive, yet there doesn't have to be anything external to the ship to "pull" or "push" against.

      I was thinking that it ONLY introduced momentum within the propulsion system (and any attached payload or craft), without "pushing" or "pulling" against anything within the environment the system is in, and without introducing anything in to it. That was the cool part to me, that you could get a "push" that moved the object forward without a corresponding "push" back to the environment surrounding the object.

      OK, never mind. I guess I don't get it.

      --
      "This post contains words, known to the State of California to cause thought. Wash brain thoroughly after reading."
    56. Re:Momentum Conservation by DragonWriter · · Score: 2, Informative

      "You can't sail across the Atlantic to China. If you could, it would mean the Earth was round" (many, many errors on all sides of that statement!)

      The main error being the claim that it was ever a serious criticism; a myth that appears to have been created by erroneous 19th century writings about Columbus. By the time anyone Europeans were looking for better trade routes to China and the Indies, both that the Earth was round and its rough diameter had been established for many centuries, and in fact navigation at that time relied on those quite heavily.

      The criticism of Columbus's idea that he could reach (and, after his first trip, that he had reached, a claim he maintained until he died) the (East, now) Indies more quickly and efficiently by sailing across the Atlantic concerned the distance involved, since Columbus's plans required the Earth to be much smaller than the size it was generally accepted to be.

      One should note that, in fact, Columbus was wrong and the criticism based on the generally-accepted results that he was challenging was right.

    57. Re:Momentum Conservation by pwfffff · · Score: 1

      OBAMA LIED
      THE ECONOMY DIED

      Saw that on my way home from work yesterday. *sigh*

    58. Re:Momentum Conservation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      From what I've read about the reaction wheel is that they have upper limits before they disintegrate due to mechanical stresses in the material. If one has nanoparticles, this may not matter because as the mechanical stresses within the nanoparticle increase and it disintegrates, one is left with even smaller nanoparticles, which can have even higher mechanical stresses put upon them etc until one reaches the point that the nanoparticles is the size of an atom. If the mechanical stress is increased further, does this mean we have a way to strip the atom down to the nucleus and eventually if we continue, that the nucleus can be torn apart from the mechanical stress? The result of tearing apart the atom is ion engines, the result of tearing apart the nucleus is nuclear explosion. Maybe this engine is the simple way to get a nuclear engine by using cassimir-polder plates. Thus, when we get to the atomic level, the engine the starts losing mass.

    59. Re:Momentum Conservation by Chirs · · Score: 2, Informative

      With a photon drive it takes 300MW to generate 1N of thrust. Perhaps this device will be more efficient?

    60. Re:Momentum Conservation by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 1

      The issue with the theory is that it violates the Newtonian rule of conservation of momentum.

      No it doesn't. As Maxwell figured out long ago, EM field can carry momentum.

      But in doing so they propagate away, rather than vanishing in the mutual-annihilation of the quantum-vacuum virtual particles.

      This implies that the energy they apply will break the cancellation of the virtual particle pair enough to leave a photon behind, propagating away with the other half of the (conserved) momentum. (Perhaps this would be the result of bremsstrahlung as they accelerate the virtual particles before they zap out.) This would fix both momentum and mass-energy conservation.

      If so they've just found another way to make a quantum light source (or even a laser, if it amplifies similar photons).

      --
      Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
    61. Re:Momentum Conservation by EdZ · · Score: 1

      If I had mod points, you would have them.

    62. Re:Momentum Conservation by radtea · · Score: 1

      You know, I think a lot of us here understand basic physics well enough

      A lot of readers here don't. They are the ones that make the simple stuff worth addressing.

      With regard to efficiency, in the case of a photon drive you're creating the photons, after all, and that takes energy. In this case you're merely differentially scattering some vacuum modes, which could easily take less energy, although it could easily take more, for all I know.

      You are correct that it's "just a reaction drive", as anything has to be if it doesn't violate the invariance of physical laws with position (which is what would be required for linear momentum to not be conserved.)

      --
      Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
    63. Re:Momentum Conservation by Rising+Ape · · Score: 1

      You can't get any energy out of the Casimir effect. Put the two plates near to each other, you get a pressure. Let that move the plates, you may get some work out of it. But then what do you do? You have to put the energy back in to get them apart again, so there's no net gain.

      Anyway, the conservation of momentum is one of the best established laws of physics, surviving from Newton to the present day, despite all the new discoveries since then. That one's *never* been wrong, though admittedly, relativity required momentum to be defined differently.

    64. Re:Momentum Conservation by jellyfrog · · Score: 0

      That would cause a change in momentum of the entire system while travelling. Citation for this "little loophole"?

      BTW it would be more like: use initial force to accelerate, reach destination, use reaction force to decelerate and stop, since you are still moving when you reach your destination.

  7. Fourmilab by Red+Jesus · · Score: 5, Informative

    John Walker called such a device a vacuum propeller. He didn't have any particular ideas about how the device would work, but he does have a nice analogy involving propellers.

    1. Re:Fourmilab by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 1

      John Walker called such a device a vacuum propeller [fourmilab.ch]. He didn't have any particular ideas about how the device would work, but he does have a nice analogy involving propellers.

      Yep. You're using the forces generated by quantum effects to propel yourself forward, like a submarine uses water to propel itself forward. It's the closest you're going to get to a car analolgy.

      Someone should send this link to John. He'd like it.

    2. Re:Fourmilab by LordAndrewSama · · Score: 1

      Let's just hope he doesn't screw everyone over by patenting it ;)

    3. Re:Fourmilab by Sir_Lewk · · Score: 1

      It's the closest you're going to get to a car analolgy.

      Oh come on now, you can do better than that.

      What they've done is create something that spins around, and in the process pushes off of something else, generating propulsion.

      In other words.... They just invented the space-wheel! The question of powering the spinny parts is still up in the air, you'll need some sort of engine. The parallels to automobiles should be obvious to any experianced slashdotter. :)

      --
      "linux is just DOS with a UNIX like syntax" -- Galactic Dominator (944134)
    4. Re:Fourmilab by Terwin · · Score: 1

      Patenting the idea is not so much the problem, the problem is if he asks for unreasonable levels of compensation because of his patent.

      If he only asks for 1/3 of the expected savings, it will still help a lot if it is at all cheaper.

    5. Re:Fourmilab by RobVB · · Score: 1

      Pun intended?

      --
      I'd rather you rationally disagree than irrationally agree.
    6. Re:Fourmilab by Calithulu · · Score: 1

      But, isn't the concept in the public domain now?

    7. Re:Fourmilab by GargamelSpaceman · · Score: 1

      That's a really nice description of what is supposedly happening, but I would still like a 'Popular Science' level picture of how the heck this works showing the machine, and the fields and how they would react...

      --
      ...
    8. Re:Fourmilab by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Now I see why Johnny Walker ads say "Keep Walking"

  8. Is this different from a photon drive by stevelinton · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Is dumping momentum into the quantum vacuum different from emitting photons carrying the same momentum? If not, this is just a photon drive, which is a well known concept, has brilliant specific impulse but is incredibly energy-inefficient except at high relatavistic velocities.

    1. Re:Is this different from a photon drive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My thoughts exactly; "radiation pressure" can push things too, but the tradeoff is always between wasting mass (by pushing lots of stuff slowly) vs wasting energy, by pushing a little bit very fast...and pushing photons, or EM waves, have the least possible mass and the most possible energy.

      "It's always something." --Rosanna Rosanna Danna

    2. Re:Is this different from a photon drive by LanMan04 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Red this short article about "vacuum propellers" (props to RedJesus for finding the article):

      http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/vprop/

      You don't have to "emit" anything, you just set up magnetic fields to push against the "vacuum" of space, which is not at all a true, classical vacuum (it contains little fields all over the place). It's like the ocean, a force that can be interacted with. A "working fluid".

      And since we're talking electromagnetism, a really strong force in the grand scheme of things, maybe this will be a lot of energy efficient that simply throwing almost-massless particles out your rear.

      --
      With the first link, the chain is forged.
    3. Re:Is this different from a photon drive by stevelinton · · Score: 2, Informative

      I did read that article. It didn't answer the question. The quantum vacuum consists of (at the energy levels we're dealing with) virtual photons. If we're giving net momentum to these virtual photons I think that is the same thing as there being real photons travelling in the appropriate direction. So, you move some charges and magnetic dipoles around, and you photons start moving -- how is this different from emitting something from an antenna?

      And all electromagnetic forces are carried by photons so there isn't a difference in strength.

    4. Re:Is this different from a photon drive by LanMan04 · · Score: 1

      And all electromagnetic forces are carried by photons so there isn't a difference in strength.

      OK, I officially don't know what I'm talking about. Carry on. :)

      --
      With the first link, the chain is forged.
    5. Re:Is this different from a photon drive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      OK, I officially don't know what I'm talking about. Carry on. :)

      Smartest slashdot comment yet on this article. That should earn you a +5 insightful right there

    6. Re:Is this different from a photon drive by DragonWriter · · Score: 3, Informative

      And since we're talking electromagnetism, a really strong force in the grand scheme of things, maybe this will be a lot of energy efficient that simply throwing almost-massless particles out your rear.

      Since it is a momentum-transfer (hence, reaction) drive, it would seem to face the same constraints as any such drive imposed by conservation of energy, so in the ideal case, it would perform exactly the same as an ideal photon drive. Of course, engineering efficiencies might, in practice, favor one over the other, but even an ideal photon drives has an enormous input power to thrust ratio on the order of 300MW per Newton of thrust.

    7. Re:Is this different from a photon drive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That was my first thought when I read the summary as well. I wondered if this could be any better than simply shining a laser. It seems that if you are going to breaking the symmetry of virtual particle- anti-particle pairs, then you are going to be converting some of them into real particles. (Just as Hawking radiation is explained.) Without having read their theory, it seems most likely that this particles would be photons, but it would be interesting if you could get things like electrons and positrons to come out.

      Actually, that is an interesting idea. Would it be possible that an addressable lattice of such nano-particles could be manipulated to emit such a particle as a muon? That might have an application in fusion power generators.

    8. Re:Is this different from a photon drive by zeropointburn · · Score: 1

      Imparting a force upon existing photons and creating new photons are two different endeavors (from an engineering standpoint; a physicist could easily argue that they are the same). The end result might be the same (photons running screaming from the back of your thruster), but the energy input could be very different. Since it hasn't been built yet, we do not really know for sure.
        The best case would be that the drive allows for conversion of energy into momentum with reasonable efficiency and at an acceptable specific impulse. Transmission of EM fields occurs at c, so the drive would maintain its efficiency up to very high velocities.
        The worst case (aside from not working at all) is that it works just like a photon drive. If that is the case, it may be useless for propulsion while still having lots of interesting implications/applications.
        Assuming the Isp is reasonable and the energy requirement isn't ridiculous, a straightforward RTG would power spacecraft for decades without refueling.

      --
      -1 raving lunatic; +6 subGenius... Things even out...
    9. Re:Is this different from a photon drive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Specific impulse is the measurement of efficiency per unit of propellant, sort of like MPG in a car. Maybe you're thinking about thrust.

    10. Re:Is this different from a photon drive by khallow · · Score: 1

      Imparting a force upon existing photons and creating new photons are two different endeavors

      I have to disagree. The engineer would agree with the physicist. A way a number of these propulsion technologies attempt to get around that is by using the rest of the universe as reaction mass. I don't know if that even makes sense, since how do you couple to the rest of the universe?

    11. Re:Is this different from a photon drive by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      Imparting a force upon existing photons and creating new photons are two different endeavors (from an engineering standpoint; a physicist could easily argue that they are the same). The end result might be the same (photons running screaming from the back of your thruster), but the energy input could be very different.

      Well, sure, differences in the engineering inefficiencies between the two might make the input energy different, the useful energy (before any engineering inefficiencies) requirement to generate a given thrust the same, and its a pretty huge one (~300MW/N). If photons are "running screaming back from your thruster", we know their velocity (photons not having many options in that regard), which tells us everything we need to know -- to wit, that in the ideal case for this is the same as an ideal photon drive.

    12. Re:Is this different from a photon drive by LanMan04 · · Score: 1

      You're absolutely right. I didn't realize (before today) that photons were the force-carriers of electromagnetism. Makes sense now. :)

      --
      With the first link, the chain is forged.
  9. Probably the only chance there is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Something like this is probably the only chance there is for interstellar space travel. The two biggest problems in traveling between stars are first having a source of energy that will last long enough to make it there, and second having the mass for propulsion needed to make it there. Between stars, there's not a lot you can push against so you have to carry your mass with you, and for corrections on an interstellar flight that could add up to a lot of mass. Either that or hope when you shoot out of the Solar system that you're aimed exactly right. However, if there is something to push against, problem 2 is solved.

    1. Re:Probably the only chance there is by jameskojiro · · Score: 1

      Forget Interstellar travel if we can open up interplanetary travel at the very least it is a good thing.

      --
      Tsukasa: All I really want, is to be left alone...
    2. Re:Probably the only chance there is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Something to push against? Hunh? .. mass for propulsion to make it there ...? Hunh? again. Once you're up to speed, you switch off and coast.

    3. Re:Probably the only chance there is by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

      At this point, I'd settle for a trip to Hawaii... it's fucking cold here!

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
  10. Implications? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    " it generates propulsion without any change in mass. As the research puts it with magesterial understatement, this might have practical implications"

    Ok, I'll bite: someone want to tell me what those implications are?

    1. Re:Implications? by Hal_Porter · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well you're not going to get to a decent fraction of light speed if you need to squirt stuff out of the back of a rocket. A propulsion system that doesn't depend on squirting stuff out of the back of the ship opens up all sorts of possibilities.

      E.g. a spaceship that could accelerate at 1g would have all sorts of useful properties. Firstly 1g feels like gravity. Secondly you could zip around the solar system pretty quickly. Last but not least, due to time dilation you could circumnavigate the known universe in 50 to 100 years ship time. Of course back on Earth millions of years would pass so the trip would be one way. Still you could imagine making decades long (I guess, I'm too lazy to do the math) trips to a star like Sirius.

      Actually I like the idea of sending out a plague of self replicating machines in devices like these, to bring the Word Of Dawkins to the stars and troll the inhabitants of other star systems.

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
    2. Re:Implications? by fyngyrz · · Score: 5, Informative

      If a spacecraft carries reaction mass, the total mass of the spacecraft is increased by the amount it is carrying at any one time. This mass must also be accelerated and decelerated. So the more you carry, the more you spend because you're carrying it. There are various side effects too, for instance, since the vehicle's mass changes over time, course change calculations have to keep track of that. Also, for every bit of mass you have to carry that is fuel, that's less cargo you can move from point A to point B.

      If you have an energy source that is relatively mass constant - a nuclear reactor, or a set of solar panels - and you can piddle along without any tanks full of "stuff", you're going to be able to carry more payload; you're going to be able to go a lot longer without "refueling"; you're going to have more freedom and more range. Headed for asteroid X? Something interesting over there on Asteroid Y? No bothersome fuel constraints, you just go and take a look. That's the kind of benefit that has very positive ramifications.

      The reason reaction mass is used in space is because in a vacuum, one has to push against something in order to move. That's the role of the reaction mass. You spend energy in X direction and get sent off in the -X direction with the same amount of energy.

      Think of how a nuclear sub works underwater. Because it has something to push against (water), its ability to move is constrained only by the degree of push it can generate - it doesn't have to carry anything to push against, it's surrounded by water that will serve the purpose. The reactor provides a lot of energy to push with, using a propeller, which is designed so as to create a forward vectored force when spinning in the water. That's what the article suggests for space craft; that there is something there to push against, and therefore, one doesn't need to carry reaction mass. Spaceships using this method would be very much analogous to that nuclear submarine.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    3. Re:Implications? by Beezlebub33 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Actually I like the idea of sending out a plague of self replicating machines in devices like these, to bring the Word Of Dawkins to the stars and troll the inhabitants of other star systems.

      The idea of sending out self-replicating devices doesn't depend on this very much. Using standard propulsion and gravity slingshots, we can get objects to about 1/1000 speed of light, and so it will just take that much longer for our self-replicating devices to get where they are going. It's not like they need to be in a hurry. And such devices should be realizable in the not-to-distant future (say, 200 years or so). Since the Milky Way is only 100,000 light years across, it would take only take 100,000,000 years for devices to make it through out the galaxy. This is a comparatively short amount of time, compared to either the life of the planet or the universe.

      Actually, the (relative) ease at making these devices indicates to some people that either intelligent life is rare in our galaxy or that they think differently than we do. Assuming technology continues to improve, I can't imagine that someone eventually won't try this. And if other intelligent life has done this, then there would be space probes flying around through our solar system. Maybe we're just missing them.

      --
      The more people I meet, the better I like my dog.
    4. Re:Implications? by VisceralLogic · · Score: 1

      Actually I like the idea of sending out a plague of self replicating machines in devices like these, to bring the Word Of Dawkins to the stars and troll the inhabitants of other star systems.

      I saw that episode of Stargate... it didn't turn out well.

      --
      Stop! Dremel time!
    5. Re:Implications? by Patch86 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And if other intelligent life has done this, then there would be space probes flying around through our solar system. Maybe we're just missing them.

      There are literally billions of stars in the galaxy- even if a thousand civilizations spent a sizable portion of their energy lobbing (largely pointless) space probes all over the place, there're still no guarantees that one would be in the solar system during the (astonishingly brief) period that humanity have been looking for them.

    6. Re:Implications? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually I like the idea of sending out a plague of self replicating machines in devices like these, to bring the Word Of Dawkins to the stars and troll the inhabitants of other star systems.

      Just package up a couple of poliicians and drop them off. In a few hundred years they will conquer themselves.

    7. Re:Implications? by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      A propulsion system that doesn't depend on squirting stuff out of the back of the ship opens up all sorts of possibilities.

      One quarter impulse, Mr. Sulu.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    8. Re:Implications? by Hal_Porter · · Score: 1

      Actually that's a good point. If you want to colonise the galaxy with machines you don't need to hurry.

      However I looked up the figures for a 1g spacecraft and you could make a 10 year ship time (24 years time on Earth) round trip to Sirius.

      http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/O/one-g_spacecraft.html

      That's not so bad - you could probably put the crew into suspended animation. Or you could build an ecosphere on board that was self sustaining. Neither of these things are technically feasible right now of course, but neither of them seem to contradict any known physical principles.

      I.e. a quantum propeller - a devices that generates thrust without expelling mass - provided it could give 1g acceleration which admittedly is rather a lot - could give you V style spacecraft.

      Of course, there's still an issue of energy to power it. Presumably you need to carry something to generate that, unless you could mine it out of the vacuum or something similarly elegant. This last possibility is more speculative obviously.

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
    9. Re:Implications? by MobyDisk · · Score: 1

      There is a misunderstanding here. You still have to carry a power source, so you still must carry mass. And the same rule still applies: You must carry more energy to go further, and more energy means more mass. I'm not sure this discovery really helps with that.

    10. Re:Implications? by wurp · · Score: 1

      That was the point of the 'self-replicating' bit. It would only take one civilization, and at most a few million years to cover an globe hundreds of thousands of light years across. They don't have to invest resources commensurate with the return - they just have to invest enough resources to build one self-replicating unit, then let it use the resources of other stellar systems to create the rest.

      Note that there are BILLIONS of years available for intelligent life to start - after all, if the universe has been compatible with the creation of intelligent life for 10 billion years, 10% of intelligent civilizations should have come about in the first billion years, giving them 9 billion to do this.

    11. Re:Implications? by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

      When we're talking about nuclear reactions, the amount of energy obtained per expended amount of mass is quite a bit higher than with chemical reactions. So yes, it does help.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
  11. Finally! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    ZPM's! We'll be able to retire the aging buttered cat array fleet!

    1. Re:Finally! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Strange how you're the first to mention ZPMs. It does make sense that if you can get force out of a vacuum, you can generate electricity from that. I wonder how much you can get.

  12. Mod up: parent's article is critical by cpu_fusion · · Score: 1

    John Walker called such a device a vacuum propeller. He didn't have any particular ideas about how the device would work, but he does have a nice analogy involving propellers.

    The article Red Jesus linked is critical. It helped me understand the whole point of this Story. I know I shouldn't RTFA, but I couldn't help it this time.

  13. Any Physicists here? by Hal_Porter · · Score: 1

    Will this gizmo work? A reactionless drive almost sounds too good to be true.

    --
    echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
  14. Boy did I read that headline wrong by HangingChad · · Score: 3, Funny

    How To Build a Quantum Propulsion Machine

    At first glance I thought it said How To Build a Quantum Popsicle Machine. Then I thought Quantum Popsicle would have been a great name for a hair band in the 80's.

    You could have flavors like Lime Quark and Strange Berry, put the stand up outside the Hadron Collider.

    --
    That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
    1. Re:Boy did I read that headline wrong by sukotto · · Score: 1

      That would make a great name for a "They Might Be Giants" tribute band.

      --
      Come play free flash games on Kongregate!
    2. Re:Boy did I read that headline wrong by Again · · Score: 1

      How To Build a Quantum Propulsion Machine

      At first glance I thought it said How To Build a Quantum Popsicle Machine. Then I thought Quantum Popsicle would have been a great name for a hair band in the 80's.

      Except we reached Peak Spandex in 1992 so this idea will never be accepted.

    3. Re:Boy did I read that headline wrong by hey! · · Score: 1

      I thought the title ought to be extended: How to Build a Quantum Propulsion Machine for Fun and Profit .

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    4. Re:Boy did I read that headline wrong by Unequivocal · · Score: 1

      I thought "They might Be Giants" was a tribute band.

    5. Re:Boy did I read that headline wrong by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

      You could have flavors like Lime Quark and Strange Berry, put the stand up outside the Hadron Collider.

      Those sound great, but I'd be very afraid of the flavor Bottom Punch.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
  15. Reactionless drives by kvezach · · Score: 2, Interesting

    If I'm reading the summary right, that's basically a reactionless drive: a device that can accelerate in space without having to throw anything out the back.

    A reactionless drive would be nifty because it can gather kinetic energy very easily (that's what makes travel so cheap with one). However, there's a darker side to that coin. If you can accelerate a ship to near-c with little difficulty, there's not much stopping you from extorting the Earth by threatening to drop the ship (or for that matter, a bunch of tungsten telephone poles traveling at .99c) on them.

    Any propulsion system can be used as a weapon. Thus, the good news of the reactionless drive is that one can easily move about in space. The bad news is that one will have to.

    1. Re:Reactionless drives by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah right. Like some terrorists would use a propulsion system as a weapon. And what, fly it into a building or two? Nonsense!

    2. Re:Reactionless drives by MozeeToby · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Considering most other forms of theoretical space propulsion are accomplished with either controlled explosions (the bigger the better) or exceedingly large lasers, this seems relatively safe. Besides, sending something up to .99c still takes an extreme amount of energy, even if the system were 100% efficient (which I highly doubt) getting any sizable object up to that speed is going to take a massive power supply; massive enough that it could probably have been used more directly if you wanted a weapon.

    3. Re:Reactionless drives by Monkeedude1212 · · Score: 1

      Unless we use the Earth AS our ship.

    4. Re:Reactionless drives by david.given · · Score: 1

      If you can accelerate a ship to near-c with little difficulty, there's not much stopping you from extorting the Earth by threatening to drop the ship (or for that matter, a bunch of tungsten telephone poles traveling at .99c) on them.

      Well, you could.

      Alternatively, since all that kinetic energy doesn't come out of nowhere, you'd still need to supply a really huge battery. And if you've got one of those, there's probably more convenient ways to use it to kill people than all that inconvenient fiddling about with spaceflight.

    5. Re:Reactionless drives by Hurricane78 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Uuum, wouldn’t it be more like a machine that constantly digs up some soil, and throws it behind itself, to accelerate?

      Of course, here the “soil” constantly digs itself up. But you’re still “taking that “stuff”, and throwing it behind yourself. It just happens to zero itself out after this, if I understand it correctly.

      I would bet money, that we will get some very interesting effects and new science out of even trying this.
      Like finding out why it does not work. Or why/how the symmetry is not violated because of something weird.

      But why do you have to think of weapons? What you said could be said about nukes too. But it did not change much, because 1. Others will have that weapon too, and 2. To what planet will you go back after destroying it? You know... To breathe! ^^

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    6. Re:Reactionless drives by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is, unless you wanted an *anonymous* weapon. For that, tungsten telephone poles traveling at .99c sure seems like the way to go.

    7. Re:Reactionless drives by KlomDark · · Score: 1

      What, you're some kind of cowardly puppeteer?

    8. Re:Reactionless drives by PakProtector · · Score: 1

      Oh, sure, the Puppeteers did it first.

      But who did it better?

      --

      Edward@Tomato - /home/Edward/ man woman
      man: no entry for woman in the manual.
      "Qua!?"

    9. Re:Reactionless drives by skovnymfe · · Score: 1

      Yeah, we could counter the global warming by moving earth out of the solar system.... wait...

    10. Re:Reactionless drives by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      A reactionless drive would be nifty because it can gather kinetic energy very easily (that's what makes travel so cheap with one). However, there's a darker side to that coin. If you can accelerate a ship to near-c with little difficulty, there's not much stopping you from extorting the Earth by threatening to drop the ship (or for that matter, a bunch of tungsten telephone poles traveling at .99c) on them.

      The main attraction of the idea of reactionless drives is that, since delta-V isn't limited by reaction mass, you can theoretically get arbitrarily close to C, presuming you can power the drive long enough. This doesn't necessarily mean "easily".

      OTOH, this isn't a reactionless drive (which makes it less implausible, since such drives necessarily violate both conservation of momentum--obviously--and also the conservation of energy independent of reference frame, since they make changes in kinetic energy reference frame dependent), but a special kind of reaction drive since it involves transfer of (and preserves conservation of) momentum. Unless it still violates conservation of energy, it is still limited by conservation of energy, which means you'll still have to be able to generate usable energy at least equal to the change in kinetic energy you want to acheive, which even given the ability to convert matter directly into usable energy with 100% efficieny means to accelerate to 0.5c you'd need to convert 1/4 of the mass you were accelerating into energy to power the system.

    11. Re:Reactionless drives by david.given · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Just out of interest:

      A telegraph pole is ~10m long and about ~0.2m wide. Cross section: 0.03m^2. Volume: 0.3m^3.

      The density of tungsten is 19300 kg m^-3, so your tungsten telegraph pole masses about 6000kg.

      The relativistic momentum of an object is (m v) / (1 - v^2 / c^2)^-2: 13e13 Ns.

      The relativistic kinetic energy of a mass is (p^2 c^2 + m^2 c^4)^-2, where p is the momentum: 4e21 joules.

      Assuming I've got my maths right, which given that it's late on Friday afternoon is highly questionable, that is a very big number. It's equal to about ten years worth of total planetary energy use. And every single joule of that you have had to generate and feed to your drive.

      So I don't think we're going to see relativistic kill vehicles any time soon.

    12. Re:Reactionless drives by stumblingmonkey · · Score: 1

      Any propulsion system can be used as a weapon.

      Case in point. The only thing more powerful than the Wave Motion Cannon is the Wave Motion Engine.

    13. Re:Reactionless drives by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yet, as Heinlein theorized brilliantly in "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" (and likely got from other, more scientific career oriented friends), you don't need to accelerate anything to that large a fraction of c. All you need is to get your tungsten telephone pole going at a fair clip, ensure that it is stable on course, and let gravity do the rest. It might take you more than one, but it will certainly obliterate anything in the near vicinity while having consequences reaching out much farther than the immediate destruction.

    14. Re:Reactionless drives by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

      If you can accelerate a ship to near-c with little difficulty, there's not much stopping you from extorting the Earth by threatening to drop the ship (or for that matter, a bunch of tungsten telephone poles traveling at .99c) on them.

      A bunch of tungsten telephone poles in orbit is already a weapon deadly enough to extort the Earth -- maybe not by threatening the whole planet with annihilation by a relativistic kill vehicle, but I think threatening rich nations with the equivalent of nuclear bombardment would do the trick. Things in orbit have a lot of potential and kinetic energy without needing fancy propulsion devices.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    15. Re:Reactionless drives by Gudeldar · · Score: 1

      Wouldn't a tungsten telephone pole going .99c punch right through the Earth and keep going?

    16. Re:Reactionless drives by rescendent · · Score: 1

      if
      m = (e / c^2)
      then
      4e21 / (c * c) = 44 506kg

      So if we could convert mass to energy 44 tonnes(or tons not sure) of mass should give you the energy.

      You'd probably want to use it in spaceship to spaceship combat as I imagine a solid tungsten telegraph pole traveling at the speed of light would be mildly unfortunate for an entire planet...

    17. Re:Reactionless drives by evilviper · · Score: 1

      However, there's a darker side to that coin. If you can accelerate a ship to near-c with little difficulty, there's not much stopping you from extorting the Earth by threatening to drop the ship (or for that matter, a bunch of tungsten telephone poles traveling at .99c) on them.

      If you can get out of Earth orbit, it's pretty damn inexpensive RIGHT NOW to give a meteor a nudge in the right direction, too... Or dig up a chunk of the moon and give it a push towards the Earth.

      In short, there are cheaper and easier options, which don't even require this propulsion method.

      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    18. Re:Reactionless drives by david.given · · Score: 1

      You'd probably want to use it in spaceship to spaceship combat as I imagine a solid tungsten telegraph pole traveling at the speed of light would be mildly unfortunate for an entire planet...

      One megatonne is about 4e15 joules. Therefore, given that the telegraph pole impacting a planet is going to liberate its entire kinetic energy very very rapidly, the 4e21 joule impact would be about equivalent to about a million megatonnes.

      That would be cool to watch, from a safe distance --- such as the far side of the moon. Plus, I wouldn't want it to happen to anywhere within about a light minute of anywhere I was wanting to live.

    19. Re:Reactionless drives by david.given · · Score: 1

      Wouldn't a tungsten telephone pole going .99c punch right through the Earth and keep going?

      Surprisingly, no. IIRC --- I can't find a reference --- high speed impacts tend to turn the matter on both sides into plasma. This is great if you're a spaceship, because a thin layer of foil will vaporise any small impacts and by the time the expanding ball hits your main hull it's diffuse enough not to do too much damage. It's less good if you're a planet, because there's nowhere for it to expand.

      So you'll get an cone of plasma burrowing its way into the planet. IIRC again, about half the energy will get soaked up by the rock and mantle and the other half gets radiated out into space. Half of 4e21 joules is still a hell of a lot --- at these scales the planet will act like it's made of liquid, and will splash. I would say that the shockwave would scour the surface clean, but the surface here is irrelevant. The entire mantle will basically get churned up and it may even end up disrupting the core (and we still don't know what that's made of --- there are serious theory that it contains exotic matter).

      However, it's not enough to actually destroy the Earth. You need about 1e33 joules to lift Earth's mass out of its own gravity well. So, while enough debris will get splashed out to render the inner solar system a very bad place to live for the next million years or so, once everything dies down Earth will be a relatively normal white hot ball of boiling rock.

      Just wait a few billion years for the next intelligent species to evolve and they can do it all over again.

      (It's possible I'm overstating things; this is all a best guess written on a Friday night. Perhaps all that would happen is that the surface would be scoured down to the mantle by a supersonic shockwave of vaporised rock...)

    20. Re:Reactionless drives by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How big of an explosion would this cause if it impacted Earth?

    21. Re:Reactionless drives by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "The bad news is that one will have to."
      Why is this bad news? My dream is to fly around in space.

    22. Re:Reactionless drives by MadUndergrad · · Score: 1

      Probably about how a bullet punches through an apple and keeps going.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjUTZH_Vdxs

  16. Nadesico? by certron · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This sounds a whole lot like the way the engines work in the anime Kidou Senkan Nadesico. There's even a helpful animation played to explain it all to the crew and passengers.

    --

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    1. Re:Nadesico? by Suiggy · · Score: 1

      You get to burning!

    2. Re:Nadesico? by SnarfQuest · · Score: 1

      Anime is definately the place to go if you want to understand theoretical physics. Oh, that and giant robots.

      --
      Who would win this election: Andrew Weiner vs Andrew Weiner's weiner.
    3. Re:Nadesico? by Akaihiryuu · · Score: 1

      Known as Martian Successor Nadesico in the US. Great anime, one of my favorites. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martian_Successor_Nadesico

  17. Re:Those daring men in their quantum pushing machi by FTWinston · · Score: 3, Funny

    Until we find out that if you leave it on for a million years, it might just accelerate a space ship of one cubic centimetre up to a few millimetres per hour.
    With due apologies to the authors if this estimate turns out to be a gross underestimate.

  18. there is a change in mass by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If this propels you, you get closer to the speed of light; as you approach that speed, you gain mass.

  19. First Lesson in Relativity... by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 1

    "Although the proposed engine will consume energy for manipulation of the particles, the propulsion will occur without any loss of mass," says Feigel.

    I'd like to see how that works. The one thing that even non-physicists know is that energy is equivalent to mass (E=mc2). This applies to all power. However the mass loss of a battery which discharges is negligible compared to the total mass hence it is usually neglected for energies below nuclear. Unless they can show otherwise my very strong suspicion is that they energy needed to manipulate the nano-particles will be identical to the energy needed to emit a photon of the same momentum. Until they can show this I do not see anything to be excited about.

    1. Re:First Lesson in Relativity... by adipocere · · Score: 1

      I see plenty to be excited about. For one, you're not having to chuck stuff out the back. With a rocket, you are carrying your reaction mass along with you. You're not only having to accelerate your ship, you're having to accelerate the stuff you'd just gonna throw out the rear a few minutes from now. It means that ships are very heavy and inefficient.

      With this, you're just concerned about your energy. Without it, you're concerned about your energy, and the extra mass you have to carry along with you, and that makes the energy required go up. No dragging along big tanks of propellant with you. It might be quite liberating.

    2. Re:First Lesson in Relativity... by Colonel+Korn · · Score: 1

      "Although the proposed engine will consume energy for manipulation of the particles, the propulsion will occur without any loss of mass," says Feigel.

      I'd like to see how that works. The one thing that even non-physicists know is that energy is equivalent to mass (E=mc2). This applies to all power. However the mass loss of a battery which discharges is negligible compared to the total mass hence it is usually neglected for energies below nuclear. Unless they can show otherwise my very strong suspicion is that they energy needed to manipulate the nano-particles will be identical to the energy needed to emit a photon of the same momentum. Until they can show this I do not see anything to be excited about.

      The reason our spaceships don't have flashlights in the back is that the maximum force that can be produced using small scale light sources is rather low. If this method works and allows the same momentum change as a photon drive but in 1/1000th the time, that's something to get excited about.

      --
      "I zero-index my hamsters" - Willtor (147206)
    3. Re:First Lesson in Relativity... by hardie · · Score: 1

      While energy is equivalent to mass, that does not imply mass conversion is the only source of energy.
      Batteries do not lose mass as they discharge.

      Steve

    4. Re:First Lesson in Relativity... by stevelinton · · Score: 1

      While energy is equivalent to mass, that does not imply mass conversion is the only source of energy.
      Batteries do not lose mass as they discharge.

      Steve

      It does and they do -- just not very much.

    5. Re:First Lesson in Relativity... by tylersoze · · Score: 1

      Yes they do, E/c^2, or p/c if we're talking flashlight rockets.

    6. Re:First Lesson in Relativity... by sarlos · · Score: 1

      What he's getting at is you still require some means of generating energy. This is similar to the magnetohydrodynamic propulsion technologies that are impractical because the energy generation requirements lead to power plants that weigh more and are less efficient than simply turning a traditional screw in the water. I agree this is exciting, but to be of practical use as a means of propulsion, you must be able to produce the required levels of energy with less mass/fuel than you'd simply need to boot hot gases out your tailpipe.

      --
      Government's view of the economy: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving,regulate it. If it stops moving, subsidize it.
    7. Re:First Lesson in Relativity... by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      I see plenty to be excited about. For one, you're not having to chuck stuff out the back. With a rocket, you are carrying your reaction mass along with you.

      Unless you have an external energy source, you still are stuck doing essentially the same thing with this, in the form of whatever you are converting to energy to feed into it to transfer momentum to the quantum vacuum. Just like the case with a photon drive. Its an interesting mechanism, but its still a reaction (momentum-transfer) drive, and, as such, its going to still be limited by the conservation of energy.

      OTOH, it might still be useful -- having alternatives to a photon drive at the limit case of reaction drives means that, while we haven't expanded the theoretical ideal performance, there are more opportunities for engineering efficiencies.

    8. Re:First Lesson in Relativity... by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      The reason our spaceships don't have flashlights in the back is that the maximum force that can be produced using small scale light sources is rather low.

      Well, no, because then you'd just use bigger flashlights.

      The problem is that the power:thrust ratio, regardless of the scale of the light source, for a photon drive sucks, despite the great specific impulse. 300MW per Newton of thrust in the ideal case means you need some giant power source (and fuel for that power source) to power it, which kind of negates the advantages of not carrying reaction mass.

      This seems to be a different mechanism that achieves essentially the same effect as a photon drive, so while the engineering might be different, the ideal physical limits seem like they would be the same.

  20. Vindication! by overshoot · · Score: 1

    At last a theoretical basis for the Dean Drive.

    --
    Lacking <sarcasm> tags, /. substitutes moderation as "Troll."
  21. Solving a solved problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The Norwegians already have a wormhole to the other side of the galaxy, why are we wasting time on this?

    1. Re:Solving a solved problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey, you aren't supposed to know about that. Who told?

  22. from Peter to Paul by oldhack · · Score: 1

    This sounds like HHGG's cretins travelling back in time to steal stuff from the past, only to find out the future bastards are doing the same to them.

    --
    Fuck systemd. Fuck Redhat. Fuck Soylent, too. Wait, scratch the last one.
  23. On earth it's called Magnetohydrodynamic drive by DevConcepts · · Score: 1
    1. Re:On earth it's called Magnetohydrodynamic drive by RobVB · · Score: 1

      No it's not. That MHD still pushes seawater backwards in order to push itself forward. It wouldn't work without water, so it's not reactionless.

      --
      I'd rather you rationally disagree than irrationally agree.
    2. Re:On earth it's called Magnetohydrodynamic drive by DevConcepts · · Score: 1

      Which is why it says on earth. I can't recall seeing enough liquid water in space for it to work there.

    3. Re:On earth it's called Magnetohydrodynamic drive by RobVB · · Score: 2, Interesting

      There's no reason quantum propulsion couldn't be used on earth, except maybe it wouldn't be very efficient. It could be used to make helicopter-like machines, which levitate without distorting the air around it. Or ships that don't leave a trail. Come to think of it, this might one day be a big thing in military stealth vehicles.

      --
      I'd rather you rationally disagree than irrationally agree.
  24. Why did noone tell me it was the future? by Nadaka · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Does it mean that I am old because I look around every day and it feels like I am living in a surreal sci-fi story?

    Reactionless drives, energy weapons, smart phones, robotic killing machines, genetically engineered super species? At this rate I wonder if I would be surprised when practical AI or faster than light travel becomes an option.

    1. Re:Why did noone tell me it was the future? by John+Hasler · · Score: 2, Funny

      This isn't the future. There are no aircars.

      --
      Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
    2. Re:Why did noone tell me it was the future? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, but we'll have fusion in only 10 years now, so it balances out.

    3. Re:Why did noone tell me it was the future? by city · · Score: 1

      This is the future! There are a ton of aircars out there: http://www.parajetautomotive.com/ http://www.terrafugia.com/

      --
      I am a v1ral sig. Plse c0py me and h3lp me spread. Thank y0u?
    4. Re:Why did noone tell me it was the future? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not YET.

      http://tech.slashdot.org/story/09/03/18/1633253/Flying-Car-Passes-First-Flight-Test

    5. Re:Why did noone tell me it was the future? by John+Hasler · · Score: 1

      > There are a ton of aircars out there:

      I just looked out the window. There are no aircars out there.

      --
      Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
    6. Re:Why did noone tell me it was the future? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just wait until we regrow the hobbits....

    7. Re:Why did noone tell me it was the future? by Patch86 · · Score: 1

      There are aircars, there have been for decades. They're called "helicopters". Sure they're expensive, noisy, use a butt-load of fuel, and you need a library of qualifications to fly one. But well, no-one ever specified any of that...

      Aircar's and aircar.

    8. Re:Why did noone tell me it was the future? by mkarcher · · Score: 1

      Does it mean that I am old because I look around every day and it feels like I am living in a surreal sci-fi story?

      Reactionless drives, energy weapons, smart phones, robotic killing machines, genetically engineered super species? At this rate I wonder if I would be surprised when practical AI or faster than light travel becomes an option.

      I'm sorry to say, but practical AI and faster than light travel will probably make our kids feel like they're living in the future. On the bright side, I don't know whether I'm being optimistic or pessimistic.

      --

      These opinions are my own and not necessarily
      the opinions of God or any other supreme being.
  25. Sorry to burst bubbles by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    But it looks like from the abstract that it will only cause rotational forces. Based off of that it will work similar to a magnetic torque rod or a momentum wheel and not actually be used for moving us about the galaxy.

    http://arxiv.org/abs/0912.1031v1/

  26. Conservation of M/E? by JSBiff · · Score: 1

    "According to quantum mechanics, a vacuum will be filled with electromagnetic waves leaping in and out of existence."

    I'm confused. . . does this violate the law of the Conservation of Matter & Energy? Can this effect be exploited to harness 'free' energy? After all, electromagnetic waves are energy, are they not? Sure, propulsion that doesn't require you to throw stuff out the back door sounds interesting, but free energy sounds even more interesting.

    1. Re:Conservation of M/E? by JSBiff · · Score: 1

      After perusing the linked Wiki article about Vacuum, I suppose what it comes down to is that the energy potential in vacuum is so incredibly small, it's not worth trying to exploit?

    2. Re:Conservation of M/E? by wizardforce · · Score: 2, Informative

      No. Think of the virtual particles as a loan that *must* be repaid. The more that is loaned, the quicker that it must be repaid. electron/positron virtual pairs exist for a loner time than say virtual proteon/antiproton pairs do. There is no way to use the creation of virtual pairs to create free energy or break the conservation laws.

      --
      Sigs are too short to say anything truly profound so read the above post instead.
    3. Re:Conservation of M/E? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Couldn't we just do some kind of ponzi scheme, and foist the deficit on ever larger batches of electron/positron virtual pairs?

      We could call it "Madoff Energy".

    4. Re:Conservation of M/E? by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      Well, they tried it at the beginning of the universe. However, they found out that the large debt led to a hyperinflation. Newest observation show that the expansion of the universe accelerates again, so probably someone tries the scheme again.

      Let's just hope the Earth wasn't bought on credit, or we might find ourself homeless soon.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
  27. Micro Version of an Old Experiment? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There WAS the attempt to take advantage of the fact that buttered bread always lands butter-side down, and cats always land on their feet.

    IIRC, it involved strapping a cat to a slab of buttered toast with the cat's feet on the butter. (Difficulty: obtaining catly cooperation). The early results were promising, with the cat hovering (and spinning) as the cat's feet and the buttered toast fought for landing position. When last heard from, the lab was attempting the same thing with a mountain lion, in the hopes of lifting or stabilizing significant amounts of weight and possibly obtaining propulsion effects by varying cat and bread sizes, with the goal of reaching low-earth-orbit without fuel.

  28. It would require a change of mass by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Casimir effect is real and can be used for propulsion but it would require a change of mass because momentum has to be conserved. The mass variation for unit of time would be equivalent to dm = dE/c^2 where dE is the energy required for propulsion. The thing will move but slow and consume lots of energy. Yet it is an interesting device.

  29. MOD PARENT UP by LanMan04 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is exactly what they're saying. A quantum propeller.

    You push off of stuff that already exists in space to move forward, instead of having to throw stuff backwards to move forward.

    The KEY is that space is not a true vacuum. It is a "working fluid" in the sense that you can push at it with magnetic fields. It can be interacted with.

    --
    With the first link, the chain is forged.
    1. Re:MOD PARENT UP by SoVeryTired · · Score: 1

      Fluidic space, eh?
      Apparently that episode of Voyager wasn't so retarded after all.

      --
      Slashdot: news for Apple. Stuff that Apple.
    2. Re:MOD PARENT UP by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      Apparently that episode of Voyager wasn't so retarded after all.

      If the conclusion is that any episode of Voyager wasn't retarded then you've post the question incorrectly.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
  30. Understatement by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If this ever does get made into a propulsion system that changes the world(s), the phrase "this might have practical implications" will be up there alongside "one small step for man".

  31. Bad Ass! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Let's do this shit. I'm ready for awesome intergalactic adventures. extrogalactic as well.

  32. Doesn't sound exciting at all... by Monkeedude1212 · · Score: 1

    Although such a machine will need a source of energy, it generates propulsion without any change in mass. As the research puts it with magesterial understatement, this might have practical implications."

    My Engine does not change it's mass when it turns the crank shaft. It simply alters the mass of my fuel source. This propulsion system will still require a source of energy. Until we learn how to create energy without a change in mass - this engine is about the same as any other engine. Personally, I don't trust anything with "Quantum" in the name to function anymore then my decade old Car engine.

    1. Re:Doesn't sound exciting at all... by rpresser · · Score: 2, Informative

      Your fuel source does not change its mass. The gas in your tank combines with the local air and releases pollutants into the air. Furthermore, it achieves actual movement by turning a wheel which interacts with the ground.

      A spacecraft has no ground to interact with. Rockets produce movement by throwing away their mass. This engine (if it works) would not have to throw away its mass.

      There are other ways to get around without throwing mass. Light sails produce it by interacting with photons that the sun (or a ground laser) throws at them. There's a plasma drive I can't quite remember the name of that interacts with the local magnetic field, in essence pushing on the sun from far away. The "flashlight rocket" (also called a "photon drive") mentioned just below this post throws photons away and achieves movement without losing mass. Ion drives don't count, because they do throw away mass -- tiny amounts of it, but they do.

    2. Re:Doesn't sound exciting at all... by istartedi · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Getting energy into space is easy. You can grab it from nearby stars, or you can carry a nuclear reactor with you. Because a nuclear reactor converts mass to energy via E=Mc^2, it produces a lot of energy from a small mass.

      The real problem is reaction mass. You have to have something to push against in order to move. Getting a lot of reaction mass into space is difficult. If you can push against the vacuum of space, that problem is solved.

      --
      For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
    3. Re:Doesn't sound exciting at all... by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      I don't trust anything with "Quantum" in the name to function anymore then my decade old Car engine.

      I guess you never bought your hard disks from a certain company. :-)

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
  33. Ian M Banks by speedwaystar · · Score: 1

    Space opera author Iain M Banks' spaceships (from his various Culture novels) are propelled by "traction fields" which engage with the "energy grid" (sic) underlying the universe. Banks readily admits that this is purest gibberish with no basis in any known science. Perhaps in light of this research he can backtrack and claim to have been describing a form of quantum propulsion all along?

  34. Re:Those daring men in their quantum pushing machi by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    a few millimetres per hour

    This is still orders of magnitude better than the Northern Line, however...

  35. The important number is Thrust by zippthorne · · Score: 1

    We already have theoretical designs for reaction-mass-less propulsion: the flashlight rocket - powered by photon momentum. The question is, if this can be made practical, does it have a better power-to-thrust ratio than a photon rocket?

    --
    Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    1. Re:The important number is Thrust by tylersoze · · Score: 1

      Technical nitpick, a flashlight rocket still loses mass equal to E/c^2, or p/c (the momentum of the photons divide by c).

    2. Re:The important number is Thrust by kalirion · · Score: 1

      Hell, a guy in a rowboat will still lose mass as he rows.

    3. Re:The important number is Thrust by Chirs · · Score: 1

      You sure? Does your computer monitor lose mass due to the emitted photons?

    4. Re:The important number is Thrust by Chirs · · Score: 1

      On consideration, I think I've got it. The mass loss is not so much in the photons themselves, but in the fuel used to generate the power to create the photons. Thus the rocket as a whole loses mass.

      In the case of a computer monitor, the monitor doesn't lose mass because we're feeding it energy via the power cable.

      What if we had solar panels surrounding the flashlight rocket? Could we absorb photons coming from the sides and re-emit them out the back to give propulsion with no mass loss?

    5. Re:The important number is Thrust by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      Yes, but the panels themselves will experience photon drag due to the momentum imparted upon them. Plus, quantum efficiency isn't that great. You're better off just using a material that reflects the photons at some appropriate angle to generate the desired thrust vector, for every direction except towards a star. Fortunately, orbital mechanics are such that you can get anywhere without ever thrusting towards a star, including closer to the star.

      A solar-powered flashlight rocket is just an inefficient solar sail.

      Flashlight rockets are extremely efficient in mass, but you need to get the energy from somewhere. I suppose if you got the energy from mass (nuclear power for instance), you'd find that the poor energy efficiency equates to poor mass efficiency.

      Chemical rockets are extremely inefficient in mass, necessitating excessive expenditure of energy. Everything else is an attempt to find a compromise between the two values that minimizes the expense of a spacecraft, which is some weighted function of mass, energy, complexity, political feasibility, and a host of other factors.

      Could we absorb photons coming from the sides and re-emit them out the back to give propulsion with no mass loss?

      No. It is impossible to emit anything that generates thrust out the back of a spacecraft. Down is not defined until you accelerate the vessel. In space, the main engines always point down when active.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
  36. Jet engines vs rockets? by grimJester · · Score: 1

    Well, the photon is the carrier of the electromagnetic force, so the two may be equivalent in some sense. However, naively thinking, wouldn't rotating a wheel that pushes on something be more efficient than a rocket? Jet engines are more efficient than rockets, but I don't know what principles are at work and don't know how they apply here.

  37. ATTENTION by feder · · Score: 2, Funny

    THIS SOUNDS LIKE A REACTIONLESS DRIVE. NOW THAT I HAVE PROPERLY CATEGORIZED IT FOR YOU, YOU CAN JUST GO STRAIGHT ON TO BEING SKEPTICAL, SINCE EVERYONE KNOWS REACTIONLESS DRIVES ARE BALONY. THIS HAS BEEN A SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT FROM THE SOCIETY FOR THE PROTECTION OF THE STATUS QUO IN ENGINEERING. THANK YOU.

    (We had to bribe Slashdot editors to let us write the above in all caps. They are total suckers for lower-case letters. It's a fetish of theirs, probably. Poor little letters. Cut to CmdrTaco doing a lower-case 'a' in the butt. Oh, ffs, will this filter ever let me through? rthwerg erg qergqegqerg qerg qegqegqreghqer gqer gq erg qer gqe gqergqergeqrgerg)

    1. Re:ATTENTION by Tumbleweed · · Score: 1

      THIS SOUNDS LIKE A REACTIONLESS DRIVE.

      You seem to be confusing 'reactionless drive' with something else. Using gyros to change attitude of spacecraft is reactionless, and those have existed for a long time. If you have to put something into a system (like, say, electricity) to get something out (like, say, motive force), then that's not against the laws of physics, or even remotely technically difficult.

      Practicality, however, is another matter, especially when it comes to using something like this to be the primary mover of a spacecraft.

    2. Re:ATTENTION by Garridan · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I just read up on "reactionless drives" and I don't agree. If this works, it will be similar to the Dean drive. From a naive point of view, it'll look like a reactionless drive. But on closer inspection, work is being done on the magnetic fields in a vacuum -- just like the Dean drive does work on the surface it rests on via friction.

    3. Re:ATTENTION by earlymon · · Score: 2, Funny

      Dean drive?

      Dean ... Venture?

      --
      Pathological kinda promises Path + Logical - but instead, you get stuck with pathetic.
    4. Re:ATTENTION by Zediker · · Score: 1

      beware my wiki skills ;D http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dean_drive

      --
      I love to slaughter the english language.
    5. Re:ATTENTION by geckipede · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That could only work if the vacuum had a velocity in relation to the craft - a preferred reference frame of its own. The whole point of relativity is that there is no such priviliged reference frame.

      Without that, there's nothing to define how much you have accelerated, nothing the crafts own frame can relate to, so constant power into such a system ought to create constant force. With a fixed mass, that means that you're putting kinetic energy into the system linearly with respect to speed, but gaining kinetic energy proportional to the square. Good old KE=0.5mv^2

    6. Re:ATTENTION by Goaway · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Using gyros to change attitude of spacecraft is reactionless

      It is not. The spacecraft is rotated one way, and as a reaction the gyro is rotated the other way.

      If you have to put something into a system (like, say, electricity) to get something out (like, say, motive force), then that's not against the laws of physics, or even remotely technically difficult.

      It doesn't matter how much you put into a system, you still have to balance momentum, or you're breaking very fundamental laws. You can not create momentum in one direction without also creating an equal momentum in the opposite direction.

    7. Re:ATTENTION by Goaway · · Score: 1

      "Work" isn't the problem, momentum is. You have to satisfy both conservation of energy and conservation of momentum.

    8. Re:ATTENTION by Tumbleweed · · Score: 1

      > Using gyros to change attitude of spacecraft is reactionless
      >> It is not. The spacecraft is rotated one way, and as a reaction the gyro is rotated the other way.

      Your definition of 'reactionless' is not the one I'm familiar with. What the gyro does in response is not the same 'reaction' as in 'reactionless drive'.

      A reactionless drive or inertial propulsion engine (also reactionless thruster, reactionless engine, bootstrap drive, and inertia drive) is any form of propulsion not based around expulsion of fuel or reaction mass. (from Wikipedia)

      There is no fuel, propellant or reaction mass in a gyro, thus it IS a 'reactionless drive'.

    9. Re:ATTENTION by Goaway · · Score: 1

      Oh right. I suspect feder thought about it in the same terms as me there. What he meant that it is a drive that does not seem to conserve momentum (I haven't read the article, but I take it it might actually conserve it).

      However, a gyroscope conserves momentum, but it also does not impart any linear momentum on anything.

    10. Re:ATTENTION by Tumbleweed · · Score: 1

      Oh right. I suspect feder thought about it in the same terms as me there. What he meant that it is a drive that does not seem to conserve momentum (I haven't read the article, but I take it it might actually conserve it).

      However, a gyroscope conserves momentum, but it also does not impart any linear momentum on anything.

      I was only commenting on the 'reactionless drive' being equated with the same class as a perpetual motion machine (i.e. a physical impossibility). The old high school physics demonstration of having someone sit on a swivel stool and hold the spinning bicycle wheel proves a reactionless drive is not a physical impossibility. Though, it IS rather slow. :)

    11. Re:ATTENTION by Goaway · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well, that one again doesn't give you linear momentum.

      But yeah, you can get linear momentum too if you have something to push on, like a magnetic field around a planet.

    12. Re:ATTENTION by joshuapurcell · · Score: 1

      You spelled boloney wrong.

      --
      Joshua Purcell
    13. Re:ATTENTION by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

      Keep reading the wiki article.

      "Such a drive would use a hypothetical form of thrust that does not require any outside force or net momentum exchange to produce linear motion, and therefore necessarily violates the conservation of momentum, a fundamental principle of all current understandings of physics."

      The "reaction" in "reaction drive" is in reference to a Newton's 3rd Law reaction, and that is what a gyro-based system relies on.

      Basically there are two categories of propulsion: Reaction drives, which encompass every possible drive that obeys the laws of physics, and Reactionless drives, which don't.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    14. Re:ATTENTION by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the society must be too smart for spell checking

    15. Re:ATTENTION by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      or convert matter to energy, and push against photons, which can transport energy and momentum...recoil from a fired laser.

    16. Re:ATTENTION by Sparr0 · · Score: 1

      Instead of considering quantum magnetic fields, consider the simpler scenario (but less feasible to exploit) of quantum particles. In the vein of Hawking radiation... If two *particles* spontaneously appear and then, instead of immediately annihilating each other, one of them runs into the back of the spaceship, the spaceship has gained some momentum and the particle has lost some. I am not sure how that loss of momentum is "paid for" when the particle shortly thereafter finally annihilates its partner anti-particle, but the spaceship got a "free" boost.

    17. Re:ATTENTION by ravenshrike · · Score: 1

      Newtonian physics.

    18. Re:ATTENTION by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

      No, physics. Conservation of Momentum still holds true in Relativity and Quantum Mechanics. All of modern physics holds CoM to be true, all proposed theories for superseding GR/QM hold it to be true, and if it ever turned out not to be true, basically all of our physics would have to be thrown out the window because CoM is a critical component to deriving most of it.

      Reactionless drives violate the known laws of physics, full stop.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    19. Re:ATTENTION by Whiteox · · Score: 1

      YOU CAN JUST GO STRAIGHT ON TO BEING SKEPTICAL

      I will never release information of my Force-Vector Reactionless Drive and will take it to my grave.

      Well.. maybe (and I mean maybe) I could utter a few words about it if someone could arrange a bedfull of sex-starved, horney, voluptuous women for me and me only from now till eternity or till I die from exhaustion.

      --
      Don't be apathetic. Procrastinate!
    20. Re:ATTENTION by sonicdevo · · Score: 1

      Ostensibly, an equal number of particles will pop into existence on the other side of the spacecraft and impart some of their momentum to the craft in the opposite direction. This would result in a net zero vector force... without some way to manipulate the quantum vacuum.

    21. Re:ATTENTION by Sparr0 · · Score: 1

      To extend the analogy... In the same way that this article discusses rotating the particles to alter the net influence, consider that the front and rear of the spaceship could be vibrating in such a controlled manner that the rear side is more likely to hit particles before they annihilate and the front is more likely to NOT.

  38. Re:Those daring men in their quantum pushing machi by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If only I had a fairly decent and large working trans-capacitor and an array of coils that would produce a rotating magnetic field that can be focused to a tight area so there would be a high flux gradient. (Likely one coil to act as a genric strong magnetic source, another one for torsion, and a third that acts to compress the others to pinch the field in the active region of the trans-capacitor.) Then there's something going on where you're bouncing a charge from side to side where this rotating magnetic field wants to shoot the electrons off to one side. So in a way it might even resemble an awkwardly repurposed magnetron. Still, thinking of the crazy stuff that I come up with, that's probably too stupid to work.

    I'd imagine in principle it's akin to an ice skater doing one of those spins, but always pulling in the arm facing north and letting out the arm facing south, and somehow not significantly shifting the center of gravity while still shifting the center of mass. Or something like that. But is that really possible?

  39. The solution is simple... by Locke2005 · · Score: 3, Informative

    First, assume you have a magnetic monopole. From there, the math is easy.

    --
    I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    1. Re:The solution is simple... by Zordak · · Score: 1

      I used to have a magnetic monopole, but I lost it while escaping from that black hole.

      --

      Today's Sesame Street was brought to you by the number e.
  40. We already have Propellantless Propulsion... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's called the Biefeld–Brown effect. And it does work in a vacuum, but based on experimental evidence the dielectric between the capacitor plates needs to be a solid, not a gas (e.g., air) for it to work. All the technology needs now is the proper funding and rockets can be replaced along with other forms of transportation.

    1. Re:We already have Propellantless Propulsion... by Beezlebub33 · · Score: 1

      I would love for the Biefeld-Brown effect to be real and not based on ion wind. But, it turns out that experiments indicate that it is based on ion wind and does not work in a vacuum. It turns out that the ions interact with and pass their momentum to neutral particles in the air (see this experiment. Calculations based on only the ions themselves are way off because they do not include the interaction with neutral air particles.

      If the BB effect is real, and possible to do in a vacuum, it would be relatively simple to produce a repeatable, measurable demonstration. However, despite repeated trials by all sorts of people playing with 'lifters', it just doesn't work.

      --
      The more people I meet, the better I like my dog.
    2. Re:We already have Propellantless Propulsion... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The issue with the blazelabs experiment is that the dielectric used with the device they tested is air and for it to work in a vacuum it apparently needs a solid dielectric, I'm surprised they didn't construct such a lifter to pursue that avenue of inquiry.

      Now this experiment was conducted in a vacuum and it worked, and if you note the design of the device it has a solid dielectric.

      And another example of a lifter with a solid dielectric. .

      As for the physics of the Biefeld-Brown effect, based on experiments conducted where the electrodes of different lifters are unlinked it doesn't appear that the effect depends on ion wind, but something else, possibly based on electrokinetics.

  41. Cars dont lose mass to accelerate, but by postermmxvicom · · Score: 1

    Cars also don't work in outer space. This engine does.

    But, also consider this: Cars push against the road. In essence they are throwing the road back (even though the road isn't part of the car, unlike rocket fuel which is part of a rocket). I only scanned the summary, but this seems to work without throwing anything back. Whether by losing mass (i.e. a rocket) or by pushing off of an object (i.e. a car).

    --
    One last thing: Sometimes I wonder; "Is that someone's signature? Or do they type that at the end of each post?"
    1. Re:Cars dont lose mass to accelerate, but by natehoy · · Score: 1

      Right, that's what makes this theory so mind-blowing. It's obviously a friction drive, but without anything to push against. Call it the "Bootstrap Drive," as in "pulling oneself up by ones own bootstraps."

      Mankind has just:

      1. busted Newtonian physics wide open, or
      2. found a previously unknown plane of existence that we can't observe today that we can push against for a friction drive, or
      3. wasted a bunch of time discussing a complete crackpot theory that is utter bullshit or the result of some poor observations or testing methodology.

      Time will tell. I'm leaning toward #3 myself, but thinking about #1 or #2 is giving me a science woody.

      --
      "This post contains words, known to the State of California to cause thought. Wash brain thoroughly after reading."
    2. Re:Cars dont lose mass to accelerate, but by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      But, also consider this: Cars push against the road. In essence they are throwing the road back (even though the road isn't part of the car, unlike rocket fuel which is part of a rocket). I only scanned the summary, but this seems to work without throwing anything back.

      If it didn't, it would violate conservation of momentum; the whole point is that it doesn't violate conservation of momentum, and that it is a momentum-transfer reaction drive that doesn't use internal reaction mass, instead, pushing back on something external to the moving craft.

  42. Impulse drive Mr. Sulu by fuzed · · Score: 1

    Which Trek verse are we in now, Captain.

    --
    If there is anyone else really in here, please close up and go home, reality is closed until further notice.
  43. Feigel's had this bee in his bonnet for years. by rpresser · · Score: 2, Interesting

    See this item from 2004:

    He started with the fact that electrical and magnetic forces between objects are mediated by photons that flit between them. So an object placed in strong electric and magnetic fields can be considered to be immersed in a sea of these transitory, virtual photons.

    Feigel then showed that the momentum of the virtual photons that pop up inside a vacuum can depend upon the direction in which they are travelling. He concludes that if the electric field points up and the magnetic field points north, for example, then east-heading photons will have a different momentum from west-heading photons.

    So the vacuum acquires a net momentum in one direction — it’s as though the empty space is ‘moving’ in that direction, even though it is empty.

    It is a general principle of physics that momentum is ‘conserved’ — if something moves one way, another thing must move the other way, as a gun recoils when it shoots a bullet. So when the vacuum acquires some momentum from these virtual photons, the object placed within it itself starts to move in the opposite direction.

    Feigel estimates that in an electric field of 100,000 volts per metre and a magnetic field of 17 tesla — both big values, but attainable with current technology — an object as dense as water would move at around 18 centimetres per hour.

  44. Wait a minute... by Locke2005 · · Score: 1, Interesting

    The existence of particles in a vacuum? That sounds exactly like the aether, a scientific theory that was abandoned about 200 years ago!

    --
    I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    1. Re:Wait a minute... by John+Hasler · · Score: 1

      > That sounds exactly like the aether...

      No it doesn't.

      --
      Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
    2. Re:Wait a minute... by jpmorgan · · Score: 1

      Virtual particles are well established both theoretically and experimentally.

    3. Re:Wait a minute... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Aether was intended to explain the propagation of light in a vacuum, before it was realized that light did not need a transmission medium. Up to that point scientists always figured you needed a medium to transmit energy. Once we dismissed that concept, the idea was thrown out. Proving that something might pervade vacuum is a little different than bringing back the theory of aether. ;-)

    4. Re:Wait a minute... by julesh · · Score: 1

      The existence of particles in a vacuum? That sounds exactly like the aether, a scientific theory that was abandoned about 200 years ago!

      Which is pretty much exactly what Dirac said when he first proposed the theory this is based on.

    5. Re:Wait a minute... by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      Aether didn't ever go anywhere.

      Einstein is supposed to have killed it, but all he did was rename it "the fabric of spacetime," which was later refined to be "the gravitational field." Modern quantum field theory suggests that we are always immersed in a dozen or so fields.

    6. Re:Wait a minute... by geekoid · · Score: 1

      That's not aether at all.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    7. Re:Wait a minute... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes indeed.. and there we go again with Tesla's ideas and dreams.

      Among them, because symmetries can be broken, etc. etc.. is energy from the vacuum:

      http://www.youtube.com/user/AJCraddock#g/u

      The science exists, and Novel prizes have been given for it, but it's just not in the standard text books.. because the theories have been crippled for about a hundred years!

    8. Re:Wait a minute... by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

      Isn't energy from the vacuum still a zero-sum game, that is, to get more energy in one place, there must be less energy in other place, so that the net energy of the universe remains unchanged? Sort of like how I'm freezing my ass off now in the coldest winter ever to make sure there is enough heat to melt the Arctic ice caps and endanger the polar bears?

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
  45. Once again Star Trek is prophetic by kiick · · Score: 1

    This is quite obviously an impulse engine.

  46. Reversible? by david.given · · Score: 1

    Here's an interesting question:

    Assuming this works, could the process be made reversible?

    This would result in a device that resists momentum change, instead absorbing kinetic energy and using it to rotate the nanoparticles (and I assume dumping the energy out as heat).

    This would be really useful for a lot of purposes. Spaceflight, naturally (anything that lets you play with momentum is useful in spaceflight); it gives you a brake that would cause your spacecraft to resist acceleration, which would be very useful for satellite stationkeeping. Around planets the devices would fall slowly; you might be able to use one as a parachute. You could install one on the tops of tall buildings to make them resist swaying in the wind. An aircraft with one installed would behave really oddly (possibly usefully). The possibilities are endless...

    1. Re:Reversible? by Soulshift · · Score: 1

      No. Think about it - in space, to "slow something down" means the same thing as "speeding something up," that is, changing an object's velocity (commonly known as acceleration.)

      As such, you'd have to spend energy to accelerate toward your target, and when you were about to reach it, decelerate (i.e. accelerate in the opposite direction) in order not to go past it.

      Another way to think about it is that in your inertial frame, you are always resting. So there is no kinetic energy to "absorb" to slow down since you aren't actually moving, from your point of view. Of course, that small planetoid in front appears to be moving towards you at a large rate, but good luck "absorbing" the kinetic energy from that impact :)

      --
      node-def: a tactical hacking sim. Now in open beta.
    2. Re:Reversible? by david.given · · Score: 1

      No, no, my reverse quantum widget doesn't resist motion. It resists acceleration. In other words, when it's switched on (if indeed it can be switched off!) it will make your vehicle act like it has a greater mass than it really does.

      What this would be useful for is, for example, a satellite in low orbit: residual air drag will tend to decelerate it and cause it to deorbit. But with the quantum brake, at least some of the momentum change would be safely radiated off as heat (or whatever) and so the satellite would be affected much less. You would end up having to spend much less fuel in station keeping.

    3. Re:Reversible? by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      Unless it increases the gravitational mass together with the inertia, it not only makes your satellite resist stronger against the air drag forces, but also against the gravitational forces. In other words, your satellite will no longer orbit the planet, but just go straight away to space.

      Thinking again about it, this would be the perfect space launch mechanism. Just accelerate the object to moderate speed, and then switch on the anti-acceleration device.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    4. Re:Reversible? by khayman80 · · Score: 1

      Unless I'm misunderstanding, the quantum wheel is just an efficient photon drive. That is, normal use results in excited vacuum states (photons) carrying momentum in the opposite direction as the spacecraft. So the reverse process would be like a solar sail that absorbs photons and spins magneto-electric nanoparticles. This seems like it would require an incoming stream of photons.

      What you're describing sounds like two (or more) of these quantum wheels placed against each other, coupled to an accelerometer. Whenever the object begins to accelerate in a particular direction, the quantum wheel in that direction starts emitting photons to counteract the acceleration as much as possible. That would result in an object with enhanced inertia, but it would require an insane amount of power (300MW) to resist a force of 1 N.

  47. I knew I should have kept that CDC 6600 by GreenTom · · Score: 1

    From TFA:

    The beauty of Feigel's idea is that it can be easily tested. He suggests building an addressable array of magnetoelectric nanoparticles, perhaps made of a material such as FeGaO3 which has a magnetoelectric constant of 10^-4 in a weak magnetic field.

    So is he saying that just by fliping the bits in some old core memory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_core_memory), you can produce thrust?

  48. ahem: you sir by nimbius · · Score: 1

    are not "doing science" to it...instead youve created a wholly ungodly nightmare engine from which there is no escape, and lashed it together with physics.

    --
    Good people go to bed earlier.
  49. Uses energy but not mass? by tomhath · · Score: 1

    Although such a machine will need a source of energy, it generates propulsion without any change in mass.

    I thought e=mc2, or did I miss a memo somewhere?

    1. Re:Uses energy but not mass? by geekoid · · Score: 1

      only the memo that talks about quantum effects.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    2. Re:Uses energy but not mass? by kalirion · · Score: 1

      Unless those quantum effects recharge your energy source, you'll lose mass as you use up energy.

  50. Re:Those daring men in their quantum pushing machi by Ryvar · · Score: 1

    He throws out some tentative numbers at the end of the abstract on the requirements for using this principle to manipulate satellites. Anyone here with a solid understanding of physics want to take a stab at working out what the energy input->force output is like assuming a magneto-electric constant of 10^-4 and the particles comprising 50% of the total object mass?

  51. Oh, and if this works ... by rpresser · · Score: 1

    Like the poster on TR, I recommend this be dubbed the Spindizzy effect..

  52. Michio Kaku by earlymon · · Score: 1

    Prof Kaku has a show on the Science Channel called Sci-Fi Science. I saw the episode this week on how to build a working warp drive. Based on negative energy paper by researcher from Mexico's top university (sorry, can't remember name of prestigious institution or researcher) - sure sounds like the same sort of thing from TFA.

    Apologies if it's just Friday thinking and the TV show and this new article aren't related - but I think they are.

    --
    Pathological kinda promises Path + Logical - but instead, you get stuck with pathetic.
    1. Re:Michio Kaku by jpmorgan · · Score: 1

      What you're describing is Alcubierre drive, requires exotic materials. In all likelihood, the exotic matter required for an alcubierre drive is impossible to create. Ultimately though, the Alcubierre drive is based on general relativity- forward motion by distortion of space-time.

      This paper describes something very, very different. First, it's based on quantum mechanics. Second, it seems possible to actually build.

    2. Re:Michio Kaku by earlymon · · Score: 1

      Yes, many thanks. However - in the show they did make a rather large point of exploiting the force demonstrated at Harvard using quantum particle creation / dissipation in a vacuum as (somehow) the basis for that drive. That was my point of confusion and crossover, as it seemed the same root as that described in the paper. Again, many thanks for the help.

      --
      Pathological kinda promises Path + Logical - but instead, you get stuck with pathetic.
    3. Re:Michio Kaku by julesh · · Score: 1

      In all likelihood, the exotic matter required for an alcubierre drive is impossible to create.

      Not that this matters, as anything inside an alcubierre bubble becomes causally isolated from the rest of the universe, and hence will never be able to stop moving...

    4. Re:Michio Kaku by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In all likelihood, the exotic matter required for an alcubierre drive is impossible to create.

      Not that this matters, as anything inside an alcubierre bubble becomes causally isolated from the rest of the universe, and hence will never be able to stop moving...

      It certainly can be stopped, you simply turn the field off and then vehicle will once again be causally linked with the rest of the universe! Surviving the resulting deceleration without some sort of inertial compensation device is the real trick.:p

  53. Re:Those daring men in their quantum pushing machi by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Not to mention the Dean drive.

  54. Won't Somebody Please by sexconker · · Score: 1

    Think of the other Universe?!

    Abusing those quantum effects "leaping in and out of existence" in Universe A will only cause trouble for the people in Universe 1!

  55. Freeman Dyson meets James Dyson by EvilSpudBoy · · Score: 1

    At long last, the propulsion theories of Freeman Dyson and the vacuuming theories of James Dyson converge.

  56. Back to the Future Hoverboard by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    so, will I have one of these: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsgIzU51Mr0 ?

  57. Security? by Quiet_Desperation · · Score: 1

    Man, the Stargate-Universe folks really need to control their script leaks.

    1. Re:Security? by Tetsujin · · Score: 1

      Man, the Stargate-Universe folks really need to control their script leaks.

      Unfortunately, when a plot is full of holes, the script is bound to leak...

      --
      Bow-ties are cool.
  58. The term is "Reactionless" by StCredZero · · Score: 1

    It just gave a slight air of plausibility to a few million bad SF novels.

    Lots of good SF as well. In Larry Niven's "Known Space" continuity those things were called "Thrusters."

    1. Re:The term is "Reactionless" by rpresser · · Score: 1

      "good SF" is the antiparticle for 'Larry Niven's "Known Space" continuity.'

  59. Quantum diode sail possible? by gestalt_n_pepper · · Score: 1

    I was thinking yesterday (unusual, but it happens) that if you had a 10 by 10 kilometer plate of some material that acted on the kasimir force like a diode does to electrons, that you might get unidirectional force from vacuum energy. Not a lot, but over a decade, it would add up. You'd essentially have a quantum "sail."

    Possible? Or do I just need more coffee?

    --
    Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
  60. Not reactionless by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

    Note: I am not a physicist.

    Will this gizmo work?

    It seems superficially plausible.

    A reactionless drive almost sounds too good to be true.

    Reactionless drives break conservation of momentum and conservation of energy, so a claim of one would be an extraordinary claim. However, this drive is not reactionless -- reactionless drives are not drives that feature no loss of mass, they are drives that feature no transfer of momentum. This is a no-mass-loss reaction drive, which would seem to be different in mechanism but not effect to a photon drive, subject to conservation of momentum and energy, and consequently requiring enormous input power for its thrust.

  61. QED by Mr.+Flibble · · Score: 2, Informative

    The existence of particles in a vacuum? That sounds exactly like the aether, a scientific theory that was abandoned about 200 years ago!

    I suggest you read this book: QED The Strange Theory of Light and Matter

    As the author of the introduction, Zee notes: "According to Feynman, to learn QED you have two choices: you can go through seven years of physics education or read this book"

    This is the best book there is that I know of that will give you the grounding to get Quantum Electrodynamics. You will discover that particles do in fact, exist in a vacuum. The quantum world does not work anything like the macro world that we are used to. You have to get used to ideas like electrons traveling back in time and emitting a photon before they actually received a photon that caused them to emit said photon.

    If you don't want to read that, then at the very least, read this: Vacuum Energy

    --
    Try to hack my 31337 firewall!
  62. Color me cynical by Quiet_Desperation · · Score: 1

    Well, I see the *promises* of many sci-fi things, like the other story about regrowing nerves. Problem is that there's amazing medicine and science that have been promised over the 44 years of my life that I haven't see boo about since the announcements. Where's my two hour New York-Tokyo flight? Where's my replacement organs being grown inside of a cow? They were talking about regrowing limbs and in the 70s. Where's the line of nuclear desalination plants providing California with energy and fresh water? Solar power sats have been on the table since the late 60s. A.I. and fusion and all those other things are just around the corner- in perpetuity.

    GM food + cell phone with a processor + robot with gun bolted to it != HAL9000 with an FTL drive

    Cripes, even if we keep our aim low- 15 years ago there was an announcement of super realistic voice synthesis, but most computers still sound like Twiki from Buck Rogers. Bede bede bede bede, the real future sucks donkey balls, Buck!

    The fricken Asmio robots even look a little like that fasrtsucking Twiki bitch bot grr argh! That's no hookerbot like in the movie A.I.

    Where's my quantum dust based PS9, dammit? Well, OK, that was Sony getting high on its own spume in a TV ad... never mind. Something like that would probably fry your brain, but, hey, just get a fresh one from the cow.

  63. I get the feeling by IMightB · · Score: 1

    From the more and more frequent article mentioning Quantum Mechanics that humanity is taking the first few steps in taking QM from mostly theoretical to applied on an industrial scale. That will be an exciting era indeed.

    1. Re:I get the feeling by ceoyoyo · · Score: 2, Informative

      The computer you're typing on is a rather good example of quantum mechanics on an industrial scale. It's been estimated that quantum mechanics is in some way responsible for a large fraction (can't remember exactly - two thirds?) of our economy.

    2. Re:I get the feeling by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      Well, strictly speaking, for 100%, because without quantum mechanics there would be no planet and no people, and therefore no economy.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    3. Re:I get the feeling by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      I should have been more specific: "the theory of quantum mechanics."

  64. Inert motor? by OpenSourced · · Score: 1

    Isn't the technical name for such a thing an "inert motor"? I was surprised at the article not using that term, but then made a search and discovered that the name is not so widespread as I thought. Is that the usual way of calling a motor that can work without using ejection of mass, or there is another way, or there is no established way? I had always liked that term, together with "cold light" (light source with no generated heat, do I have to revise that too?). But perhaps I'm old-fashioned, or just plain wrong.

    --
    Rome taught me patience and assiduous application to detail. Virtues which temper the boldness of great, general views.
  65. Wild Optimism by oren · · Score: 1

    We may get flying cars in my lifetime after all! And cheap space travel! And... and... Ok, ok. But admit it is nice to contemplate, even for a few moments :-)

  66. Don't be fooled. by postermmxvicom · · Score: 1

    The 10km x 10km sails are cheap knock off garbage they sell to tourists and wannabe garage mechanics. I know it is expensive, but you really need to go up to the 50km by 50km size and brand name DOES MAKE A DIFFERENCE!!! Also, remember to shop intergalactically, but buy galactically. You will appreciate the difference in service when something goes wrong (and it will).

    --
    One last thing: Sometimes I wonder; "Is that someone's signature? Or do they type that at the end of each post?"
  67. All right! by cowtamer · · Score: 1

    Bring on the hoverboards and the flying cars. It's almost 2010 already!!

    (Somebody had to say it. Now can someone better versed in physics than myself explain why this won't happen?)

  68. Einstien would disagree by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    with the assessment that no mass would be lost. I know of a popular equation relating energy to mass...

  69. Re:Those daring men in their quantum pushing machi by babymac · · Score: 1

    The first time I'd heard of a zero point drive was in Arthur Clarke's 3001. While it's not his best book, he's not exactly a sci-fi slouch.

    --
    "War makes me sad." - Me
  70. One problem by jd2112 · · Score: 1

    With quantum propulsion is that you can never know both which direction you are travelling and how fast you are going.

    --
    Any insufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology.
  71. bye then by smoker2 · · Score: 0, Troll

    Goodbye wankers,

    Maybe you think you aren't a wanker, but the sad fact is, you are !

    I've been here nearly 10 years and all you've done as a group is descend into wankerdom. So fuck you, you deserve the world you're helping to create. If only I could go somewhere else instead.... (planetary speaking)

    PS you can help the cause... add this site to your hosts file at 127.* and never visit again. Just by posting you are giving this place legitimacy. Sad fucks.

    1. Re:bye then by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Maybe you can explain why?

      Not that will miss you.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  72. Re:2nd POST by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    2nd reply.....oh, wait.....shit!.....

  73. Perpetual motion by tadauphoenix · · Score: 1

    Borrowing from another phase. From our perception it's perpetual. Where the return is... that's not for us humans to think about. But this is how to achieve it.

  74. The mass-loss-less propulsion system by tzot · · Score: 1

    That's a mouthful. What's it going to be called by the space sailors? That's the real challenge.

    --
    I speak England very best
    1. Re:The mass-loss-less propulsion system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Ohoy! Them quantum propellers deliver a fierce thrust, matey!"

  75. How To Build a Quantum Propulsion Machine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I guess Picard and Data never heard of this technology:

    WORF: Probe now closing at fifteen point three metres per second. Collision course.
    DATA: Captain, sensors are reading no particulate emissions or subspace field distortions.
    PICARD: Then how is it able to move?
    DATA: Method of propulsion is unknown, sir.

  76. Who cares about propulsion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The same principle should apply for energy. Use this phenomena with Lorentz force to generate an electrical current and viola...electrical energy from a quantum vacuum.

    1. Re:Who cares about propulsion? by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      The same principle should apply for energy. Use this phenomena with Lorentz force to generate an electrical current and viola...electrical energy from a quantum vacuum.

      Can't you generate a cello instead?

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
  77. Re:Those daring men in their quantum pushing machi by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The EM force is far stronger than most other quantum forces, so the intensity of the "push" would be determined by the efficiency at which one can cause symmetry violation.

    The larger the symmetry violation in the virtual particle field, the stronger the net EM field outside the ship will be, and the more effective a magnetic propulsion system would be.

    (I am more interested in the consequences of this symmetry violation; any virtual particle that persists long enough to be measured is indistinguishable from a real particle, so the potential for genuine particles to be churned out from the vacuum by this approach is interesting to me. Energy costs would likely be astronomical though.)

  78. Something to consider: by Interoperable · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The paper is a one-author publication in a non-peer-reviewed journal and doesn't seem to be published anywhere else. The author's affiliation is an applied R&D institute not an academic institute with a strong theoretical background. I'm not saying that discredits it, but it certainly means that it should be taken with a grain of salt. I would suggest that anyone who wants to assess the merits should read through some of the references (which are good publications) and see if the present article appears plausible. Even without any technical expertise, the abstracts could probably provide a feel for the state of the art.

    I couldn't be bothered to do that reading myself, but I would suggest that any momentum transfer to the vacuum would involve the production of real particles from the zero-point fluctuations. Conservation of momentum demands that there would be something carrying momentum in the opposite direction of the spacecraft and, by definition, it can't be an unexcited quantum field. There would have to be excitations of the field to carry the momentum (real particles).

    --
    So if this is the future...where's my jet pack?
  79. No it's not by marcus · · Score: 1

    The reaction mass in a "conventional" spinning flywheel gyro is called a flywheel. While such a gyro does not expel fuel, it does use a reaction mass.

    The spacecraft pushes on the flywheel, the flywheel pushes back, and both accelerate with opposing angular momentum vectors. That is an equal and opposite reaction. Thus it is not a reactionless drive.

    --
    Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgement.
    - W. Wriston, former Citibank CEO
  80. Gravity by eav · · Score: 0

    Does this imply as well the possibility of a localized "artificial gravity"?

  81. emDrive by isochroma · · Score: 0

    Old hat. emDrive already works, demonstrated here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57q3_aRiUXs&fmt=18 Uses microwaves in an enclosed cavity to transform lots of electricity into a bit of reactionless drive. emDrive Home: http://www.emdrive.com/

  82. Where's my hoverboard? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    guess we have to wait for a Mr. Fusion unit first.

  83. Anonymous Coward by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    why am i thinking the optimal shape for a spacecraft using this rotatey-particley technology would be disc-shaped with a bump on top ?
    do you suppose it might exhibit 'impossible' aeronautical feats, have a tractor beam, take rectal samples of local fauna, and leave crop circles in it's wake ?
    will i *finally* get my jetson's car ? !

  84. Re:Anonymous Crawdad by Tetsujin · · Score: 1

    why am i thinking the optimal shape for a spacecraft using this rotatey-particley

    wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey?

    --
    Bow-ties are cool.
  85. the usual e=mc^2 formula applies here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If the device uses internal energy, this will reduce its mass. It could just use photon's propulsion.

  86. Obligatory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Heaven lasts long, and Earth abides
    What is the secret of their durability?
    Is it because they do not live for themselves
    That they endure so long?

                  -- Lao Tzu,
                        Datalinks"

  87. So This the Bada-Quantum-Bing? by WED+Fan · · Score: 1

    Think of the virtual particles as a loan that *must* be repaid. The more that is loaned, the quicker that it must be repaid.

    First, you make my brain hurt. When brain hurt drink beer.

    Next, whats the vig on virtual particles. If you miss a payment, does God send Jesus to break your knee caps?

    --
    Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong fix.
    1. Re:So This the Bada-Quantum-Bing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you miss a payment, does God send Jesus to break your knee caps?

      Chuck Norris.

  88. It is NOT a reactionless drive... by clonan · · Score: 1

    Actually there IS a transfer of momentum. However it is transferring momentum to the rest of the universe. The overall distribution of Zero-Point energy has shifted which slightly shifts the center of mass of the entier universe.

    It is like putting something in a box...you can move something in the box (with magnetic fields) without moving any mass in the box...but outside the box you will see the entire box has shifted slightly.

    1. Re:It is NOT a reactionless drive... by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

      Correct, the device described in the article is not a Reactionless Drive. So are photon drives, electromagnetic tethers, and every other device that actually works in reality even if it isn't throwing mass out the back door like a traditional rocket. Now it's still up in the air as to whether this device will work, but if it fails it won't be because it tried to violate conservation of momentum.

      Basically we were just talking about definitions. A reactionless drive by definition violates conservation of momentum.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
  89. Hybrid space ships! by Chirs · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Something that nobody has mentioned yet is that if we're coupling to the surrounding vacuum to accelerate ourselves, we should be able to couple to the vacuum to decelerate ourselves, _and store the energy from the deceleration_.

    Given big enough energy storage devices, we can then use that energy to accelerate on the next trip, and the net energy cost per trip is substantially reduced.

  90. reclaim energy when slowing down? by Chirs · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Given that there is little friction in space, I wonder if it would be possible to generate and store energy when slowing down at the end of the journey (like a hybrid car) and use it to accelerate back up to speed again on the next trip.

    This would dramatically reduce the overall energy consumption, but would need some serious energy storage capacity.

  91. This is just the sort of thing... by SlideRuleGuy · · Score: 0

    that will rip a hole in subspace. I just know it.

  92. Conservation of momentum issues. by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 0

    This invention, if it pans out, would be more like a propeller for spacecraft, pushed by and pushing against the short-lived particles that spring in and out of existence in vacuum. I have to imagine that the amount of thrust would be minuscule, but not having to carry reaction mass would be a huge advantage.

    Which makes me wonder if you'd end up with a particle beam to "react against" as a result.

    Virtual particle pairs can exist because they mutually-annihilate with a lifetime so short the product of it with their masses is less than the uncertainty principle limit. If nothing interacts with them meanwhile their "values" all cancel out in the annihilation, leaving nothing. But if your device interacts with (one or both of) them, in a way that changes its own momentum, it also changes the momentum of the virtual particles. If they then annihilate without leaving something behind you've broken conservation of momentum.

    Things interacting with virtual particles sufficiently energetically can do things like separate them, preventing (or modifying) the annihilation, leaving the particles (or some hunk of them) behind, and consuming enough energy to "create" the particle pair (or whatever) left behind.

    (If I have these right...) Example: Pair forms near an event horizon, one falls in (giving the other enough energy to escape). Result: Hawking radiation. (The one falling in is preferentially an anti-particle for something inside the hole, and thus the hole eventually decays.) Another example: Consider an energetic nucleus which can't quite break apart due to a potential barrier. A pair forms on the high part of the potential barrier. The antiparticle for a particle (or fraction of it) trying to escape is sucked in and zaps its new partner instead of the original, while the equivalent particle flies away on the outside of the barrier. Result: Beta decay. (The nucleus has no "clock". Instead the random nature of the vacuum fluctuations gives a constant probability per unit time of the virtual particle pair happening in just the right way, leading to the long-term exponential decay.)

    I'd be willing to bet that, if this DOES work, the energy input will result in some reaction with the virtual particles that prevents their total mutual-annihilation. Instead some residue particle(s) will be "created" and propagate away in the direction opposite the thrust. Thus will both momentum and mass-energy be conserved. And the machinery will produce a very energetic beam of something for an "exhaust".

    But I'd LOVE it if this proves to be incorrect. (Or if the "beam" is dark matter, or the interaction somehow ends up transferred as a push against the rest of the mass of the universe as a whole, as gravity radiation pushing/pulling on whatever it hits - resulting in an inverse-square "pressor" or "tractor" beam, etc.)

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
    1. Re:Conservation of momentum issues. by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

      Which makes me wonder if you'd end up with a particle beam to "react against" as a result.

      Yeah, pretty much.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
  93. requires 18000kg of antimatter by Chirs · · Score: 1

    The energy required to accelerate mass m to 0.99c is roughly 6mc^2.

    Mass M of antimatter reacts with M of matter to give 2Mc^2 of energy, so we need at least 18000kg of antimatter (and the same of matter) to generate enough energy to accelerate our tungsten telegraph pole to .99c.

    1. Re:requires 18000kg of antimatter by david.given · · Score: 1

      Certainly, but given that there's no magic way of turning ordinary matter into antimatter, the only way of getting that 18 tonnes of antimatter is to make the stuff --- which is where the 4e21 joules of energy comes in.

      And frankly, if I wanted to devastate a planet and had 18 tonnes of antimatter around, it would be far more convenient just to take the lid off the bottle than to do all that fiddly messing around with space travel.

      (Right now state of the art is just about at the stage of producing one fundamental particle of antimatter at a time. I recall a few years ago that someone had actually managed to assemble a single anti-hydrogen atom that was stable for a while, until they dropped it.)

  94. Article assumes external field by IIsi · · Score: 1

    I'm only an aspiring physicist, but it seems like the arxiv article assumes an external magnetic field. This could explain why the author only mentions altitude change in satellites.

  95. I think fuel constraints are still an issue by snowwrestler · · Score: 2, Interesting

    A nuclear reactor simply converts mass to energy, very inefficiently. So just by virtue of running it, you are losing fuel mass. There's no free lunch.

    In the absolute best case for an energy source, you could convert mass directly to energy, and use that to power your quantum drive. But if you can convert mass directly to energy, you can just dump that energy out the back in the form of photons and get the exact same level of thrust...maybe more if your quantum drive has any inefficiencies. So I don't really see how this would be any more useful than a photon drive. In either case the hard part is the energy source, not the drive mechanism.

    --
    Build a man a fire, he's warm for one night. Set him on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.
  96. Power Generation? by Aldhibah · · Score: 1

    I you already have motion (for example the motion of the Earth around the Sun) would it be possible to use this type of device to extract energy from that momentum?

  97. Re:Those daring men in their quantum pushing machi by narcberry · · Score: 1

    Volume/speed? That's a useless metric. What's inside your cubic centimeter (notice the spelling, I get double points for mocking your science and english)?

    --
    Modding me -1 troll doesn't make me wrong.
  98. Re:Those daring men in their quantum pushing machi by FTWinston · · Score: 1

    Unfortunately, your double points are revoked on account of your mocking being pointless on both counts.

    Firstly, you used American spelling, I used international spelling. Woop de doo, I'm most impressed.
    Secondly, it really makes bugger all of a difference what the cubic centimetre is composed of; unless there's a miniature black hole in it (and its my damn space ship, i assure you that there isn't), then the accelerating force is still waaaay beyond feeble.

    But if it makes you feel better, we can say that it has a mass of 10g.

  99. Re:Those daring men in their quantum pushing machi by FoolishOwl · · Score: 1

    My first thought was, "It's the 'thruster' technology from the roleplaying game, Traveller!" My second was, "Traveller was wrong again. We didn't invent 'grav' propulsion first."