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The Last GM Big-Block V-8 Rolls Off the Line
DesScorp writes "It's the end of an era in auto technology, as the very last big block V-8 engine from GM has rolled off the production line. The L18 engine was the last variant of an engine that had been in continuous production for over 50 years. The big blocks powered everything from the classic muscle cars of the '60s and '70s to heavy-duty trucks today. From the Buffalo News: 'When GM said last June the L18 would be eliminated by year's end, the announcement triggered another show of devotion to the product. Some customers ordered two years' worth of L18s, to put on the shelf for future use.' More than 5 million big blocks have been produced over the engine's history. The final big block engine to come off the line in Tonawanda, NY is headed for the GM Heritage Center in Sterling Heights, MI."
...with a single tear running down his face.
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
It sounds like this is the result of innovation? I imagine that these "big-block" engines will be replaced by smaller-block V8s or perhaps more powerful V6s that have similar performance?
The only bad part of this is some people are going to lose their jobs (according to the AP).
Why, no, I haven't meta-moderated lately. Thanks for asking!
This is like Intel producing the last x86 chip.
Now they can finally join the 80's and work on getting rid of leaf springs next.
Plenty of other big blocks being made, no real reason to want a 50 year old design of a cast iron lump. Lots of new ones being built and machined, mostly aluminum.
Passionately Indifferent
So... What will GM be using for diesel engines? I'd thought their Duramax engines were V8s.
In the same way that the day the last caveman set down his club was sad.
Sent from my PDP-11
Love that quote. Just how much is two years' worth of big blocks? Who is "some customers"? Joe the plumber? Fedex? How many Library of Congress are we talking here?
The big block put out a lot of power, but it also sucked a lot of gas. V6's have been around for years that put out a lot of power too. The really big block engines went away years ago (440, 383, 426 Hemi --and I'm not talking about the 5.9 liter hemi either, I'm talking about the old fashioned 7.0 liter hemi!). The old Ford 390 and the 428 Cobra Jet. Those old really big V8 engines are all long gone (like nearly 30 years ago). The small and medium block V8's have been around for a while 350, 360, 351 etc. But now they are going too. The small block V8's are still around 318, 313, 305, 289, 327 etc. Still lots of go in those engines. The V6's have gotten more powerful too. But one of the problems is that people don't want to get hammered at the gas pump anymore, and they don't want to go through gas like its water anymore. If there's really only 30 years left, lets use less and make it last a bit longer. A lot of people (me too) got kind of really grumpy paying stupid high prices 2 years ago, followed by paying wildly less 6 months later. The oil companies would like to shock us and soak us again, but they and the Arabs pissed too many people off. The green shit is happening. Even if you don't believe any of the environmental stuff, being able to force their hand and make them play nice is good monetary and business sense (if you are a consumer, if you're an oil company or an Arab, it will be the first time you've had to compete in your lifetime, so from their perspective, business is sucking hard). Using less means using less. It never made sense to me why one guy would want 500 cubic feet around him, just to get to work, when 150 would do exactly the same thing.
Kill off another icon?
I'm getting one of these and jamming it into my SAAB.
Front heavy front wheel drive indeed.
__ Someday, but not this morning, I'll finally learn to use the preview button.
74 3/4 ton suburban with towing package. Damn that thing would pull anything. It got 11 miles per gallon in town, on the road, pulling a trailer. No matter what it always got 11 miles per gallon. Drive it 35 miles per hour or 85 and it still got 11 miles per gallon. Weird. I miss that big boxy thing. Nothing has that much room anymore.
It's fine if these engines are being killed because something better (as powerful with better efficiency) has come along. If not, it sucks.
To see which it is, just take a look at Ford Motor Company - you know, the one that ISN'T owned by the government! ;-)
BTW, regardless diesel engines rock! :-)
Once again, FUBO! =:-D
Galileo: "The Earth revolves around the Sun!"
Score: -1 100% Flamebait
and one day Mad Max will get this engine. Now we know; the clock is ticking on the apocalypse.
Crazy mechanic to mad max: ...last of the V8s. Piece of history.
so goes another point of history, maybe for the better, but there was something about when you opened the hood and you saw one, now you look under the hood and it's confusing. I guess age is getting the better of me LOL.
well I guess you'll all start wondering what it was like to have 550hp+, and punching it, there is just a sound, not like any other sound, it's the sound of power, raw, and tamed by only your nerve as you head down the strip. light to light, pole to pole, neck to neck, blasting the traps at 145mph+ in mid 10's, then, only after the trophy is handed to you, you drive your car home, listening to the sweet rumble.
I never had the balls to put slicks on, always felt that control at that level of speed was worth my life. lost a few - won a few, made me money while I was in school and never lost on the street ( nor was I caught ) and earn the respect of my peers in the parking lot. Had geek cred - grease in my blood - and I loved my "RAT" ... what more can you ask for when your 17 and it's 1983 ( well maybe DEC-VAX mainframe )
anyway thanks for reading
if you see me, smile and say hello.
Q: Why is starting a comment in the Subject: line incredibly annoying?
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
He said it best with why he closed up shop "there was no more good mechanics". Indeed, all the best talent was interested in engine when the BBC, 385 Series(BBF), and the 440 where developed. The tech talent moved on to stuff like stereos in the 80's and computers in the 90's.
That being said, there is still some of that star talent. The aftermarket has some serious power.
Production engine - 1200hp - 557ci(9.1L) Big Block Chevy - link
Custom engine - 1400hp - 600ci(9.8L) Big Block Chevy - link
Those engine are built to run WOT for long periods of time. A serious engineering and technological marvel.
good bye my old friend, you will be missed.
as a gear head, not much is more impressive than a big ol rat motor sticking out of the hood of your car. I will really miss this motor, gas hog or not
I'm old enough to appreciate the value of a piece of tech that has served so well for so long. Likewise, I have a soft spot for the land-line and the command line. But there are pleasurable vices that we simply can't afford to cling to, and the big petrol-burning engine is one of them.
http://alternatives.rzero.com/
We used to have an old 87 Chevy 3500 van and a 85 Chevy cube truck. Both were powered by the big block 366. Those things were nasty, I could chirp the tires on the cube truck with a light load! The van was a rocket ship, you had to be gentle on the pedal. They were hardy engines and you could pile on miles with little problems. The trucks rear finally blew in the 2000 and we junked it and sold the van. Replaced them with two GM 3500 vans which have the small block but are very ballsy. Can handle a 2700lb load with no problems, even in the PA mountains on the 70/76.
One they are retired we will switch to Sprinters with diesel engines.
RIP big block, you were a monster and legend for your day. We just don't need you anymore.
A: Why am I about to log in to mod that redundant?
Jeopardy. Use Jeopardy style. Then next time this all could have been avoided. Don't just rest on the laurels of other posters. Innovate or Die!
Good bye old friend
Seriously though, does anyone else read the content first and usually skip the subject of a post?
GM produces a 7 liter motor, the same size as the old big block 427. The 427 was a wicked powerful motor. The new engine is better. Who cares if one was called the big block. Power is the real important number. Weight and compactness are important as well. Even displacement is meaningless in the forced induction era. The term big block is meaningless. The performance cars and heavy duty trucks of today are far and away superior to their forebears in every way.
Regards,
Jason
DNS-and-BIND's screeds are so rife with ignorance, erroneous information, and poorly conceived notions of denominationalism that I hardly know where to begin. Even disregarding obvious errors like his insistence that the most valuable skill one can have is the ability to lie convincingly, the fallacies of his claims are glaring to those of us who have educated ourselves about the implications of alcoholism. I assume you already know that he doesn't care much for airy-fairy things such as morality and integrity, but I have something more important to tell you. The fact is, ever since DNS-and-BIND decided to make us too confused, demoralized, and disunited to put up an effective opposition to his propositions, his consistent, unvarying line has been that he can absorb mana by devouring his nemeses' brains. He looks down upon the rest of us. From DNS-and-BIND's perspective, we are blind so he must tell us what to see; we are deaf so he must tell us what to hear; and we are mute so he must tell us what to say. Such views may fool acrimonious roustabouts, but I aver that DNS-and-BIND just reported that it is not only acceptable but indeed desirable to pervert human instincts by suppressing natural, feral constraints and encouraging abnormal patterns of behavior. Do you think that that's merely sloppy reporting on DNS-and-BIND's part? I don't. I think that it's a deliberate attempt to promote, foster, and institute adversarialism.
By using bombastic language and selective quotation, DNS-and-BIND is able to promote vapid ideologies such as misoneism. Sounds pretty disorganized, doesn't it? But is it any more so than his vicious wheelings and dealings? In case you have any doubts, some people have indicated that he has a morbid fascination with all that is inferior, debased, deformed, unsympathetic, and deceitful. I can neither confirm nor deny that statement, but I can say that if DNS-and-BIND manages to lionize irritating, pathetic pinheads, our nation will not endure as a civilization, as a geopolitical entity, or even as a society. Rather, it will exist only as a prison, a prison in which termagant wackos meddle in everyone else's affairs.
But it gets much worse than that. As I've said in the past, DNS-and-BIND seeks scapegoats for his own shortcomings by blaming the easiest target he can find, that is, the worst kinds of manipulative, ostentatious warlords I've ever seen. I correctly predicted that he would leave us in the lurch. Alas, I didn't think he'd do that so effectively—or so soon. I don't have time to go into this in as much detail as I should, but if DNS-and-BIND's admirers had even an ounce of integrity they would reinforce what is best in people. What's the best way to oust DNS-and-BIND and his ophidian, flippant stooges, who are legion, from anywhere we find them making my blood curdle? That's actually a tough nut to crack. The answer is related the way that we must overcome the fears that beset us every day of our lives. We must overcome the fear that DNS-and-BIND will offer hatred with an intellectual gloss. And to overcome these fears, we must urge lawmakers to pass a nonbinding resolution affirming that DNS-and-BIND may be engaged in extortion, racketeering, and/or money laundering.
With friends like DNS-and-BIND, who needs enemies? I mean, nothing unites people like a common enemy. That's why I would encourage everybody to take some shots of their own at DNS-and-BIND by reprimanding him for preventing me from sleeping soundly at night. He craves more power. I say we should give DNS-and-BIND more power—preferably, 10,000 volts of it.
Although the dialectics of mentally deficient praxis will formulate social policies and action programs based on the most quarrelsome sorts of fascism in existence in the near future, mutinous segregationists, motivated by either McCarthyism or a desire to lead a pernicious, uneducated life, are eager to help DNS-and-BIND alter laws, language, and customs in the service of regulating social relations. But it goes further than that; if he w
...with several tears running down his face.
The big block V8 is like the Itanium. Big and power hungry and a real commercial workhorse.
It think people are sad because it would be like if Intel stopped making Core 2 Quads and decided all you needed was an Atom chip.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
... a blast at parties.
Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
What a waste of fuel through the years. If normal size engines with decent fuel mileage were used, we'd have much bigger oil reserves today. SUVs and trucks with such engines are not necessary to get to work or drive hundreds of miles on interstate or to drive to Walmart and get groceries. That's where I see them.
What a bunch of whining pussies.
The big block V8 is a piece of Americana. If you want to cry about emissions and technology, take a second before hand and remember that most tinkerers begin in the garage.
Say goodbye and thanks for the memories, or stfu.
Pussies.
Dart's BigM and World Products' Merlin blocks will live on. Not only can you get something 100% compatible with the GM line, there are variants with taller deck height and siamesed bores that will very readily get you to 632 cubic inches in cast iron OR aluminum and will often still bolt into a stock location. Heads from these companies are available from stock variations to those with huge valves and runners. Pistons, rods, and cranks: an endless choice beautiful forged parts; you can easily get a custom big block to your liking that contains no GM parts and is better in every way. These engines are the darlings of marine applications where it's not uncommon to see a normally-aspirated big block that makes 800 horsepower, and not just for seconds at a time like some high-strung turbo + nitris grenade engine, they go for HOURS non-stop :) Fuel consumption? comparable to any gasoline-powered otto-cycle engine: much off idle, just figure about 1 gallon per hour per 10 hp of actual output in use.
But when did Chevy ever use a Big Block V8 in a Corvair?
cat
You're trying to prove your "stomping" assertion with a Vette that is a little under three seconds faster over a seven minute course? Next month someone else will tweak something to be faster than the Vette. And month after that someone else will tweak another car, and another...
Dart Machinery and World Products make better BBCs than even GM did. But... still glad i've got my 'early' ('65 396) big block chevy motivation in the garage.
I get what you're going for here, but comparing a race engine with a mainstream engine is pointless. The race engine only needs to run for a short period between overhauls, while the V8 truck engine can get minimal maintenance and run problem-free for 200,000 miles. Yes, higher-tech engines can have much better efficiency, but at the cost of complexity. For some applications, the increased reliability of a larger, simpler engine is important.
As another irrelevant data point - Naturally-aspirated V8 engines in Formula 1 produce upwards of 700 horsepower - but those are tiny, 2.4l engines. In NHRA Pro Stock, big-block V8's like the ones referenced in this article commonly produce 1000-1500 horsepower. If you put twin-turbochargers on a race-car V8, you can get 2000-3000 horsepower.
The reason GM needed to get bailed out by the government is because they ignored the evidence of every other country on earth and presumed US gas prices would always stay the same. If they'd produced the last of these ten years ago and started making cars which actually have something remotely resembling fuel efficiency, good design, or low carbon emissions, then American cars might not be a global joke, the government might be a couple of billion dollars less in debt, and a whole lot of Americans who used to work in the auto industry would still have their jobs.
It took near bankruptcy to finally get GM to acknowledge that they had to actually innovate(or at least copy everyone else) rather than continuing with a technology which is 50 years old.
You don't watch much news; Saudi Arabia has become a smaller and smaller percentage of people selling us oil; from about 85 in the "oil embargo" days of the 70's to something like 17% now. We get a lot more from Canada and/or Alaska, without any one country having a lion's share.
This isn't foolishness; the end of this line means that GM cars may never get back here. GM has *no*reason* to be a quality product anymore. If they start making cars out of peanut butter tomorrow, the government will still pay them. It has to: it has to pay the unions.
Expect all sorts of disappointing, preachy cars to come out. The man in charge knows NOTHING about cars (he said so!) and so he'll make stupid little wind-up toys that we hate. And waste billions doing it.
The government had no right to take this action. It's just another part of the swirling disaster of these times. National defense is just a political plaything, money means nothing (because they, and not us, will always be fed).
But thanks for showing us you know nothing about what's going on. :)
Did you know GM, when they were taken hostage had a market-cap of Bed, Bath, and Beyond? GM's not done so well, since the unions made their demands. With 700,000 people on the payroll, and 100,000 actually working, they have a problem.
I think it was August of last year, Toyota and GM made the same number of cars. (to the nearest 1/10th million) Toyota made something like 27 billion, and GM LOST 37 billion.
Can you imagine it losing MORE money? Glad I didn't invest...
--- For a good time mail uce@ftc.gov
There are two other configurations that make lots of sense and yet for some reason are underused.
1) Pancake configuration. This is commonly used in aircraft, and is the same as the VW bug. You can't argue that the engine compartment on a bug is huge! And the pancake engine lends itself to "strato" body layouts, EG: the engine sits BELOW the trunk, etc. The direct cross-firing of cylinders makes for a relatively smooth operation without extensive It's well proven, provides many of the space-saving benefits of the V8, yet is basically ignored as an engine format. Why? You can have two pistons firing at the same time, 180 degrees apart! (WTF?)
2) Radial configuration. Want an engine that runs as smooth as a baby's ass? Try radial! Also, you basically don't have a crankshaft, since all the connecting rods connect to a single, central tie rod. If you timed the pistons right, you could easily have pistons ALWAYS firing 180 degrees from each other, for pure smoothness, efficiency, and and reliability.
We don't use either of the technologies, yet they each offer significant benefits over the "satatus quo". Other than NIH, why aren't either of these two highly valuable configurations used?
I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
Well luckily, we computernerds still have this V8.
If Pandora's box is destined to be opened, *I* want to be the one to open it.
Think about that for a second. If it was straight, it would head straight out into space.
The only object in existence that has curves but is still straight would be your mother.
"Dart"
"WorldCastings"
All straight lines are curved because the universe is curved because it's on the back of a cow and everybody knows that a cow's back is curved.
"No fear. No envy. No meanness." Liam Clancy
It would be great to see this company fall under. Their products are not worth buying hence the reason why the V8 is gone. Honda and Toyota all the way!
OK, I assume the Audi V8s are by necessity more efficient, but what makes the GM V8 so special other than being used in the US - maybe because there will be no more spare parts for US cars?
AFAIK Audi (and others) are still happily making decent V8s so it's not like the "world of V8" is coming to an end.
Puzzled..
Insert
During the 80's Turbo era BMW supplied a 4 cyl 1.4 litre producing 1,300 BHP in qualifying trim. Infact modern modern F1 cars have less (engine) power due to the FIA neutering the cars.
By crickey! mileage explains why we don't get these big engines in Europe. Just did a quick calculation, my local garage charges GBP1.09 / litre for standard (95 octane) petrol/gasoline, that's approx $6.62 a US gallon. Would explain why these engines are very cool and impressive but you don't see them round here .. What kind of capacity fuel tanks do vehicles with these engines have?
....last of the V-8 interceptors.
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
This is a big sign of the end of the era of user-maintainable cars.
Almost as sad as when the last VW Beetle rolled off the line in 2003 (after more than 60 years).
Go green: turn off your refrigerator.
If a diesel makes it to 500k it will have saved you so much in fuel costs compared to gasoline that you can afford to throw it away and still make a massive profit.
Plus I'm not so sure the difference "complexity" is anything like you claim. Modern diesels are computer controlled so they're a lot cleaner then the old ones and don't need anywhere near as much extra hardware to meet smog standards.
Diesels are perfect for American SUVs. American drivers are conditioned to expect grunt at low revs, which gasoline engines are terrible at delivering (you need a big thirsty V8 to do it). Diesel engines are much more suited to American expectations so you can have a smaller engine ans get double the savings in economy.
If you start extracting diesel from Algae then it will be much cleaner and more consistent than petroleum-diesel and you can probably get rid of all the emissions-control junk which is needed for diesel engines today.
No sig today...
inline v-configurations exist.
the cylinders are slanted against each other, like they are in a v-configuration (for smoother operation) and in-line to keep the engine slender. Thus the VW VR6 and it's V5 derivative were created. Be more open minded, and don't discard something just because you lack the creativity to imagine it!
...doing it wrong.
Q: should be in the subject line.
So another dinosaur becomes extinct.
That's interesting...
I was picturing a blue collar Buffalonian with a single tear running down his cheek as he lost his job.
Note that the Tonawanda Engine plant is being CLOSED, not re-tooled for new engines. Just under 200 local jobs, Gone.
Most or all of these families will have to either take much lower paying local work (Assuming they can find it. The recession of 1992 never really ended here. Local unemployment is about 5% higher here than the national average and has been for YEARS.) or they will have to move, further exacerbating the population drain that Western New York has been experiencing for decades.
So yeah, all you enviro-hippy /.ers go ahead and cheer that the V8 is dead. But just temper your enthusiasm a bit by remembering the people who don't have jobs now.
Official Heretic from the "Church of Global Warming". Proven right thanks to whistle blowers. AGW = Flat Earth Theory
Small engines (including V6) are going into Front Wheel Drive cars now.
The issue with that is the engine, the transmission, and the axles all have to fit between the front tires.
Have you ever looked under the hood of a 4-banger honda? Where would you put the extra 2 cylinders if you had to put them all in a row?
Also, I hate to pull this one.... but CITATION NEEDED. Honda and Toyota tend to use V6s in their sedans, and their reliability rating is the highest in the industry (by far)
Big, loud, shiny and dangerous. Had the chance to at least ride in a well-off classmate's orange Hemi-Cuda back in the day when smoking was in and seat belts weren't.
Still have a Bonneville in name only as the back-up car. Pathetic. Gas mileage is too good for cash-for-clunkers.
No, I want a pizza analogy!
That number doesn't sound right. That's only 100,000 per year. GM sells like 4 million cars per year. I would think that back in its heyday, they would have been selling close to 1 million big blocks a year. The article says that this 1 plant produced 5 million L18s. I suspect that there were other plants once producing big block engines.
Software sucks. Open Source sucks less.
Wouldn't be surprised if Obama's idiots told GM "we gave you money, you do what we tell you".
Just throw a 2JZ in it and call it a day
My BB 427 makes the same power that a new LS7 does, but is two full compression points lower, and has a much smaller and flat hydraulic cam. And get better gas mileage to boot.
I also could have built 3 or 4 of these for the cost of an LS7. Or I could have taken the the money an LS7 costs and easily build a motor that makes twice as much power with greater reliability.
http://www.v8juice.com/ Gollum :-(
I dislike environmental destruction more than most here, I would wager, yet hate to see the complete demise of what was a truly great design. Which brings me to a major complaint about GM, Ford, the old ChryCo, etc. They don't do niche products. If they can't figure out how to profit from producing several hundred thousand of something a year for a decade, they tend to quit considering it. Why not produce a trickle of those engines, certainly to be bought, at slightly higher prices? Tooling, etc. is already paid for, so only the variable costs remain. It would be different if they were pushing it aside to use the resources on something else, but they're obviously not. Other complaints? Big block in a Corvair? What, for wheelstands? AFAIK there was no such thing, outside of possibly a prototype. Produced for over 50 years? What? No, the Mark IV, originally 396 cubic inches, was introduced in 1965 (later produced in larger displacements: 402, 427, 454, 502... It was NOT in the same family as the previous "big block" Chevy 348/409, introduced in the 1950s, as in "She's real fine, my 409..." Rats (427, etc.) are heavy; 409s were ridiculously massive and were mostly found in Impalas and such.
When the last Beetle rolled off the assembly line, all the tooling was sold to China. Now the Chinese stamp out parts for Beetles. I can pull out the Mid America Motorworks catalog and essentially order enough pieces to build a beetle from the ground up. All I need (which can't be ordered) is the center-tube, which is essentially "the frame", but all other pieces are avialable.
What's the bet that all the tooling for this engine will be sold to China, and China will make the engine, but only as parts. So, you'll be able to buy all the pieces and assemble the engine yourself.
If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.
I COULD HAVE HAD A V8!!!
(Sorry, it had to be said eventually ;)
Seriously, this comment made my day.
cheers for the info! I will remember this if I need gas in the US! (Actually I'll probably be looking for the big happy logo which says "standard" rather than "premium" but thanks for the education :-) )
That reminds me of the Tuned Port Injection V-8 engines GM produced in the mid 80s. See, the TPI system had a long intake manifold, producing great air velocity which you need for torque. However, that same design caused turbulence that made the horsepower curve drop off sharply above 3000 RPM.
The engines of that family (the LB9 and L98) were also known as the best truck engines that GM never made. The reason why? They were only used on the Corvette and Camaro.
It appears that we have seen the last of an American icon, namely the "big block" V8 engine. There could not be a more poignant, even stirring example of the slow steady wimpification of US culture than the passing of this pillar of young male manhood. My brother Jim and I had a phrase for the thrum-thrum noise made by the revving of a big-block V8, we called it the "Happy Engine Song". Singing it required a displacement of no less than 350 cubic inches (about 6000cc's in today's parlance). But that song will now pass into obscurity, the victim of oil prices and economic decline. Global warming may give us a lot more beachfront property, but we'll be driving to those beaches in little tin 15HP hybrid-mobiles. No one will ever sing a song titled "She's real fine my 60mpg 2cylinder-electric hybrid".....meh!
"Sic Semper Path of Least Resistance"
A line can't be straight and curved in 2D!
When a thief sees a saint, all he sees are his pockets!
Including the 440 and the fearsome 426 Hemi. No, they aren't used in production vehicles anymore, but they sell them as "crate engines" for the hot rodding and musclecar restoration markets.
http://www.mopartsracing.com/parts/blocks.html
http://www.bouchillonperformance.com/MPCrateEngines.asp
I wonder if GM will still maintain some limited production capacity for this type of market?
Remember "News for Nerds, Stuff that Matters"? Help make it a reality again! http://soylentnews.org
Last of the V8 interceptors! (Yeah I know Max drove a Ford but I couldn't resist)
The result of idiot, moron, democrat legislation and FAKE global warming data!!!!
Impeach ALL democrats!!!!!
DO NOT buy from GM (Government Motors)!
Back in the 1950s and 1960s each badge had its own V8. Buick, Oldsmobile, Pontiac, Cadillac each had its own different design. Chevy had three: the small block which included the 327 and others, a middle-size engine which included the 409 (eventually dropped from passenger car use), and the big block family discussed in the article.
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Darn it. Don't you be smart with me. Everyone knows it's cows all the way down.
"No fear. No envy. No meanness." Liam Clancy