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Religion in Video Games
The Opposable Thumbs blog recently took a look at how religious themes are handled in video games. Most makers of mainstream games are hesitant, given the strong feelings of most consumers on the subject, but other companies are trying desperately to bring religion into the spotlight. Quoting:
"Part of the problem is that the game industry is often touted as being a corrupting influence for the youth of the world. Criticism against the game industry has come from leaders as high up as the current Pope, and many of us who have been exposed to sermons bemoaning the influence that games and movies have on kids. Even when groups like the Christian Game Developers Foundation put out a video encouraging developers to create wholesome titles for kids, the attitude conveyed towards current members of the industry was contemptuous at best. Needless to say, games with heavy religious content are usually fringe projects, independently created and oftentimes sporting dodgy production values, because publishers wisely don't want to risk boycotts from legions of the faithful."
says religion has no say in games. And I'm on the good guys side ;)
Then worry about the religious content. If it's not a good game (or movie, or song, or book) you can stuff it to the gills with religious messages, and no one outside of your particular religious community will ever buy it. Build a better game (or movie, or song, or book) and the world will come to you. (See: Sufjan Stevens, C.S. Lewis, VeggieTales, etc.).
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
The grammar and spelling in the article are NOT good. The author, Michael Thompson, -- or "ars technica" -- should get an editor.
Looking at space, radio, science and computing from a 'down-under' amateur enthusiast perspective.
How about someone create a game that occurs during the inquisition when the ignorant Christians killed thousands of people who wouldn't convert to their religion?
I don't really see how religion is needed in video games. Plenty of games have used religious influences heavily. Fantasy games often use elements of Norse, Egyptian, Greek/Roman, and Christianity/Judaism in their games and that hasn't been a problem. People don't like being fed propaganda from any religious group so games based on any particular religion usually will fail (the fact that they are usually done by second-rate developers and are low budget doesn't help them either). But more than anything else, there is no need. Look at some games, either A) They are done in a fantasy setting and therefore having a real-world religion as a major theme is simply unrealistic or boring B) The focus is action rather than storyline development, most gamers don't care if the Spy from Team Fortress 2 was an agnostic, Buddhist or a scientologist. C) Religion would take away key parts of character development, for example Fallout 3, choosing a religion would effectively either make your character a hypocrite, unrealistic or would make decision making too simple.
In the end, I don't think there is a need for religion in video games. While it will always and has always been referenced, theres just no good reason to put it in.
Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
Religion does exist in video games. They aren't usually the same religions as we have meatside, however. I think that's what people are complaining about. The problem is if you let, say, World of Warcraft priests worship the Christian god, then people will automatically boycott when it doesn't follow a particular sect's beliefs. In fact, they'd have no combat skills at all if they followed the word of the Bible.
Instead, religions are made up, relatively shallow, and may be based on the history that took place in the game. Sounds a lot like real religions, doesn't it?
Job? I don't have time to get a job! Who will sit around and bitch about being broke and unemployed then?
Great. Now when people realize how corrupt religion is, they'll blame the video games for causing it.
While I could not find an exact sales figure for the United States alone, Final Fantasy X sold 6.6 million copies worldwide. Final Fantasy X-2 managed ~3 million worldwide, ~1 million in North America.
PARAPHRASED SPOILERS OF FINAL FANTASY X FOLLOW
In the first game, you kill what the majority of their world conceives of as a (monotheistic) deity, as it was enjoying a parasitic relationship with humanity. It still sold just fine.
Christ is risen, and boy, is He pissed.
After receiving the authority to smite the tribes of Islam, Christ joins the eighty deuces and gets his revenge on vegetarians, homosexuals, eaters of shellfish, and of course, unbelievers and blasphemers. Armed with a robe and the wrath of Yahweh, step into the sandals of He Who Is Righteous as he transforms from the Prince of Peace to the Prince of Blowing Motherfuckers to Pieces. Use conventional weapons to kill the wicked or send plague upon plague to the unfortunate souls dumb enough to defy you. Raise past holy warriors from the dead to join your army of brutal goodness, and get bonus points for killing Arab leaders and sending them to Hell.
Feel the rage of the righteous! Coming Spring 2010...
They say they are interested in religion in games. Well, in fact there IS religion in quite a few games. In some cases a religious mythology forms the basis for the game's world, in other cases there are various religious characters who influence things and so on. That's not what they want. They want a game that evangelizes their religion. They want one that shoves it in your face, that tries to show it as The One True Way(tm).
Well, games like that are basically always going to suck. Evangelism isn't fun. What's more, it turns off most people so major developers won't do it. When you have an inherently shitty premise and combine that with a shitty developer you are going to get a total crap fest.
In terms of mainstream games, religion will continue to be a role in them as it always has been. Often it'll be fictional religions, since they are often set in fictional worlds. However you'll continue to see religious characters of one sort or another in games where such a thing is useful to the story. However you aren't going to see games designed around pushing a religion. Those aren't fun, and they won't sell well, so major publishers aren't going to fund them.
When I play Team Fortress 2, I play Demoman standing in the midst of stickies and detonate them when someone approaches me then micspam "ALLAH AKBAR"
These groups and these complaints are a perfect example of people who don't understand the idea of freedom. They are the people who want everyone to live like they live and believe what they believe. They don't get that people are free to make and sell whatever games they want, and that people are free to choose which games they buy and which they don't. If people wanted more religious video games, companies would recognize this demand and create more religious video games. There are no regulations encouraging or prohibiting any of this. If there are few religious video games, realize that the demand must just not be there for it.
Down with the career politician! SUPPORT TERM LIMITS
"In this game, you play as Moses as he fights the Midianites. Weapons are the usual for the period. You get points for killing adult males, adult females, and male children. But you lose points if you kill virgin girls, obviously."
Yeah, I could see that...
Simple solution: If you do not want- do not buy. Developers aren't idiots. Religious video games will be industry standard when hell freezes over. That's sort of the main point of the article. At the same time, there's certainly a niche market for them. I don't enjoy racing games, that doesn't mean I'm opposed to their existence. Why should this be any different? Seriously, in cases like this the whole, "leave religion out of it," line is just retarded. On that note, Happy Newton's Birthday everyone.
First of all, not everyone is being completely adverse to religion. The marketing team behind Dante's Inferno actually hired a group of people to pretend to be Christians protesting the game. Even if such a thing would be considered poor taste, it's not going to affect game sales at all. The same people who would actually protest or boycott a game over religion would never buy your game anyway. Hell, I actually heard more about the game because some religious people were offended by the fake protest and made enough noise that it was picked up by a few news outlets. Free advertising right there.
The other way to look at it is that games are trying to be a form of art. If they're not willing to tackle religion, they're just throwing away their legitimacy. Whether you're religious or not, I think you would agree that religion plays a major role in the world today and as such is an interesting topic to explore from a narrative standpoint. It's not even necessary to single out a religion by name, but exploring ideas such as polytheism, religious crusades, or corruption of religious institutions can add something interesting to a game. In fact, I think that an exploration of some philosophy is something that is sadly lacking from so many games today. If someone were to make a game exploring these themes I would be tempted to buy it, even if the gameplay weren't as good as another title in the genre.
If religion in games was done right, it would make kids too cynical. Imagine this game:
"SimChurch - start your own religion, gain adherents, build a church, advertise, and grow. You can tweak your theology - too loose, and your people lose interest; too strict, and your people backslide. You can ask your followers for financial support, but ask too hard and they'll drop out. You can train fanatics to help you expand, but they may turn against you."
"In multiplayer mode, you can try to convert people from other religions to yours. Become strong enough in an area, and you can convert your country to a theocracy. Then you can have wars with other theocracies."
"If your theology calls for miracles, they might just happen. But they won't always help you. You can also fake miracles, once you have enough assets, and gain adherents that way."
This would teach kids way too much about how religion really works.
Great game with clear message: there is no god.
...you mean like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_Adventures ?
One can only imagine the modern remake of that game-play....they could always use the Quake engine for 3D awesomeness...I'd love to see the rail gun used in Biblical fights.
Are we talking about any religion, or just Christianity in video games?
Christians will stop at nothing to ram their silly messages down our throats anyway they can. If we are talking Christian Propaganda being rammed down the throats of our kids in video games, then I am flatly against that.
If Christians want to write their own video games for themselves, more power to them. I think the mainstream does wisely to avoid stuffing Christian rhetoric in their productions. It will turn off many non-Christians and non-religious people. Why do it?
If you want your kids exposed to Christian Mythology, take them to church. Write your own video games, and clearly mark them as containing Christian Propaganda. And leave the rest of us alone.
Ruby Neural Evolution of Augmenting Topologies
Assassin's Creed 1 and 2
Dragon Age on MANY counts
God of War 1-3
Too Human
Any roleplaying game with the presence of a priest/cleric/etc class
XENOGEARS!!!
This is just a miniscule sample of what's out there. There is plenty of presence of religion in video games, real and fictional, though even fictional religions are generally rooted in the belief structures of actual ones. As Sycraft-fu said, they want religion to be shoved in your face, but realistically, religion is belief. There are tons of them out there and everyone has their own take. Putting religious doctrine as a centerpiece of a game would do nothing but alienate the audience.
At the same time, the group that is complaining of the irreverence or lack of "faith" in games is assuming that not only are they right, but that their own religion is pristine, which is not true of anyone. There is everything from modern court cases over abuse, embezzling and the like,to jihad, the crusades, forceful "conversion" blood feuds between rival INTERPRETATIONS of the same beliefs, crucifixion, slavery, support of genocide....the list goes on. Games are about entertainment. The good ones don't exist to try to pigeonhole the player into thinking a certain way, and while I have nothing against religion in general, religious propaganda aims to do just that, and that isn't something that the general population will tolerate in it's escapism. A good religious themed game is most likely going to borrow from the negative connotations of a religion, not the so-called positive, and is that really what those making this outcry want? Doubtful.
I think that Scientology would a pretty good video game. Scored in thetans you would lambast your opponents into submission so they were 'stuck in an incident' and use a variety of pyscological techniques to intimidate, cajole and threaten anyone who get's in your way.
Contact with any southpark characters or hearing music from Tool kills your character instantly with sardonic irony or an influx of conscious awareness. You can use Tom Cruise missiles and seeing a movie with John Travolta increases your health (If you really have to you can sing 'the one that I want' in the street for a slow recharge). Contact with anonymous anonymouses of anonymousland slows you down.
Once acquired, your trusty DC3 is upgraded until it is a *real* spaceship so you can move onto the ultimate of ultimate boss fights with the badest of badguys - only trouble is you have to pay real money to find out the bosses name or you find yourself dropped into a volcano and have to start again - penniless. You fail every level at least once. The game, called 'Fair Game', starts with the phrase 'This is an e-meter...'.
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
I've always liked the way Dragon Quest handles religion. You take a cross, bend it into a trident, make god into a goddess, and leave everything else vaguely Catholic. That way you have a nicely fleshed-out religion and no one gets uppity or pissed.
As far back as I can remember, religion and gaming go hand in hand. For example, if you prayed in Nethack, you could be gifted with potions of healing. Or if you sacrificed a fresh kill at an altar, you may gain favor with your god. But don't sacrifice your puppy because someone may get upset.
In Fallout 2 I learned that Hubologists are a great source of grenades. They keep to themselves except when they're out warring with the New Reno drug lords. Oh, and they have some strange spokespeople with shiny teeth.
In Elder Scrolls 4, I learned about the Mythic Dawn and the cults of Dagon. You can count on them to have wine. Or at least potions of magicka.
So I wouldn't say it's a fringe thing.
, the very limited spectrum, that religion forces them to live in real life. We are supposed to be role playing something we can not be. We all could and act honestly if we tried too. What fun is that to do in a video game. We want to do something we are not capable of.
"I wanted to create a game that had both an entertaining adventure but also hold true to the commandment of 'Thou Shalt Not Kill.'"
Done: I am unaware of any game in which you actually kill people. Plenty of games in which your fictional character kills other fictional characters, but they're videogames, not real life.
It's odd to me that religious types sometimes seem to put more emphasis on morality in fiction than they do in real life. It's not real. Why is this a thing to them? No one has ever demonstrated that violence in videogames or movies actually leads to desensitization for real-life violence, so that's not a valid reason. There's plenty of real-world violence going on, that should be higher priority.
Virtual violence is repugnant to them is what I think it comes down to. That's fine, they should not play games with violence. I think this guy is basically doing the right thing, he's making his own game to fit his tastes, which is great. There aren't enough games like that. I still have to object to the mindset he seems to have: that virtual, in-game violence is somehow morally wrong.
And most in-game violence to me seems pretty justified. Most involve shooting bad guys or bad aliens. GTA allows you to kill innocent bystanders, sure, but so far that's always been a player using free will to do so. The main story does involve murder, but nine times out of ten it's justified. Not great morality there, but pretty good considering it's not real.
Some games actually suceed in making you feel guilty. Fallout 3 had oodles of opportunities to do evil, and plenty of times I ended up feeling pretty guilty.
Having played some of those wisdom tree games, I very much doubt people who are out to make games as a vehicle to promote their own morality have NEARLY the skill it would take to make a game in which a player felt guilty for committing virtual sins, but that is a possibility.
"It was important to do so, and it is not easy. You can defend yourself by stunning Enforcers, or thugs for a very brief time. The goal is the mission, and to avoid direct contact with the enemy as much as possible."
That sounds like a watered down version of mirror's edge, a FPS/FPA* which combines parkour with bad guys with guns. You can stun an enemy to take his gun, then use it on other bad guys for a few shots, but the game really encourages you at most parts to flee and stun rather than get into a shootout. Not for morality reasons though, it's just easier that way.
*I don't want to get into a semantic argument over marketing terms here, you know what I'm talking about.
Sure, it wasn't "Religion" based, but it was philosophically based, and promoted good values. Give me some more positive games like that where there are little sub-quests where you can make the lives of the people in the game-world better. Heck, I was just playing Ultima7 again for the bazillionth time, and just fixed Polly and Thurston up for the first time. No lasting game value, doesn't help any quest, give moeny, etc. but it's a great warm fuzzy. Then I stole Morphin's illegal drugs, tried to blackmail him with his ledger, then slaughtered Garritt and his parents with caltrops for being pricks. Next: Lord British.
Parent is not offtopic. Bioshock addresses religion in exactly the manner that the quote indicates--people, for instance, create a smuggling ring around religious artifacts from the surface. It's stated that Rapture was created to get away from its influence. This is clearly not the light that the evangelists are looking to see it in, but it's there and there's no denying that.
Assassin's Creed also involves religious elements, to the point where the devs felt a disclaimer was necessary at the beginning. The first deals with assassinations during the crusades, and the second has *SPOILER*
you assassinating the fucking pope.
*/SPOILER* So, I'd argue that religion as a plot element is reasonably common in modern games, and that the production quality of those two games/series alone is enough to offset the summary's assertion. And for that matter, I've not heard of many boycotts of the above titles. They're titles that sold quite well, so if there had been such boycotts, they can't have had much effect.
Now, if they want to talk about games that portray religion in a positive light, that's a different story.
Video games satisfy the lusts of the flesh.
By definition that conflicts with the goals of religion.
Want a good FPS or MMORPG? Look to the Crusades.
--- Keep the choice with the user..
Wow, I read the lead as:
Part of the problem is that religion is a corrupting influence for the youth of the world.
I think there's a need for religious content in video games like I think there's a need for schizophrenic content in video games, and bipolar content in video games, and Alzheimers-based content in video games. Why pander to just one form of mental illness?
The total war games have delt with religion since the beginning. You not only have to conqer the military, you have to enforce your ideologies on the people or they will rebel.
Educate people too much (build too many schools) and they rebel, slap an oppressive religion on them and spread your priests around and they are good little subjects.
Of course in the holy war campaigns you are often forced to follow the will of the pope or else you are excomunicated and the other countries will attack you.
http://games.adultswim.com/bible-fight-action-online-game.html
Tada
I said Tada.
Boycotts from legions of the unfaithful.. .. well, the unfaithful are more like covert ops in terms of numbers, really.
Gamers--the people who really fuel the gaming industry (as opposed to the casual gamer) are a very unique market segment. They are, for the most part, people who actually *think*. A religious game targeted at this group would make no sense, as many of the responses to this story have demonstrated. Not only would I say the majority of the "gamer" market is probably atheist, but even the ones who do believe in something are much more likely to be independent in their thinking and what they believe, and not likely to take their religion from a third party source such as a video game.
Now, certainly some religious mythology could be used to make some good games. And this is the sad part, I find. Game manufacturers are too afraid of offending the right-wing religious nutjobs who are out there monitoring everything. Even though these people in no way represent their market, they end up controlling so much and can even have a negative impact on sales. (Of course, as with GTA, it can also have the opposite effect.) I would like to see a Jesus vs .Mohammed-style deathmatch game. Of course then the Muslims would totally freak out for allowing their precious messenger to appear in a game.
I could also easily see a MMORPG set in the middle ages with a heavy religious theme, which would be great--so long as it's accurate. Using religion to control your subjects just as it was used in real life.
It's also too bad that it would be illegal to insert religion into "America's Army," because those people would be the perfect audience to receive it!
After populous, no more religion is needed in video games.
"Part of the problem is that the game industry is often touted as being a corrupting influence for the youth of the world." This is a statement that has no basis in fact. Kids used to play cowboys and indians and other games that involved pretend gunfights and pretend killing. Since the memory of man goeth not to the contrary children have had games that involved make believe violence. I believe it is clear who is to blame for the lack of disipline that todays youth displays: The social workers who strike fear into parents and the psychiatrists with their diagnosis of "attention deficit disorder". When a child has only self direction to steer them because their parents are to afraid to teach them the word NO then you get a child who is confused, anxious even violent. Of course this is nothing a good dose of ritlan or some such drug can't fix right up. Please note that a majority of the proponents of the theory that video games cause violence in youth are the social workers and the psychiatrists. Look at the time line. When these two groups became the last word in child rearing is when most of the problems in young people (violence in particular) started. These people are educated and totally aware of what they have wrought in the lives of our children. Teaching self disipline to children can and will improve their quality of life. Here's a link to a TED video that more than proves this point: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0yhHKWUa0g&feature=player_embedded Peace..... Oh bye the way religion has nothing to sell that I care to buy....
They should have mentioned Grandia II, it has the best religious-themed plot ever. If you can play it, don't read the summary ahead; it suffices to say that it can be serious mindfuck to religious people, especially catholics.
(( IN THE BEGINNING ))
Many ages ago, the Battle of Good and Evil took place: Valmar (the devil) was destroyed by Granas (god), and the pieces of his foul body fell to earth, leaving on it massive scars that last to this day.
(( LIGHT SPOILERS HERE ))
Ryudo, a geohound (mercenary), is hired by a local church of Granas to take a group of Songstresses (nuns) to an ancient tower, where a part of Valmar lies. They are to perform a sealing ritual, so Valmar will never be revived. But something goes tragically wrong, and all the Songstresses are killed except one, Elena, who is possessed by the Wings of Valmar. He is again hired to take her to St. Heim (Vatican), where they are to meet the Pope (can't get more obvious), who could possibly help rid her of that evil taint.
(( HEAVY SPOILERS NOW ))
Early on their journey, Ryudo runs into a mysterious and immensely powerful sorceress, Millennia -- who, he soon finds, is Elena transformed by the Wings of Valmar. Other characters join them: a beast man who wants revenge on Ryudo's long-lost evil brother, a young boy who is in fact the prince of a kingdom that once worshipped Valmar, and an ancient droid girl who has yet to learn to have any feelings.
(( MASSIVE SPOILERS INCOMING ))
On their way, they attempt to cleanse other places that have been tainted by the parts of Valmar. But they eventually find that, while they thought they were cleansing the parts, they were actually releasing them, allowing Valmar to be resurrected. And whereas Valmar was indeed turned into pieces, Granas was actually destroyed. Yes, you read it right, god is dead -- and the Pope not only knew it, he planned to use the rebirth of Valmar to bring the end of the world. So, ultimately, they have to kill the pope-turned-reincarnation-of-the-devil.
(( ULTIMATE SPOILERS ))
And it ends in a ménage à trois!
Circumcision is child abuse.
The problem isn't religion in video games, series like Final Fantasy has already addressed religious themes in their games on a regular basis.
"Christian Game Developers Foundation put out a video encouraging developers to create wholesome titles for kids", statements like that which cause issues when certain religious sects place act as the moral blanket for everyone christian or atheist, fundamentalist or moderate, they are imposing an agenda on people that do not necessarily agree with their views.
That being said, there is always the option not to purchase it... Don't like it, don't buy it. As long as there is still a choice for the public, then people can make whatever games they want. As soon as someone starts to moves stamp out that choice, resistance should be brutal and swift to maintain freedom of expression.
-Misao Little Weasel Girl
Religion can actually be found in quite a few video games today, including ones that have sold very very well and are popular.
How about Legend of Zelda?
Ocarina of Time has a lot of influence from asian religions and philosophies. Not to mention that the Fire Temple with Volvagia has a few Islamic influences and references. Enough in fact to infuriate their community and demand for the game to be recalled.
http://www.freewebs.com/hyrulianreligion/shields.htm
Many, many Japanese video games have pretty strong religious elements in them. I mean Shinto religious elements.
A good example recently is Ju-on, the Grudge, which is loosely based on an old Shinto legend. (Variations on the supernatural grudge theme show up in a lot of Japanese cartoons or "anime.")
Even way back in 8-Bit days, the Shinto story that later inspired The Ring was used in a video game called Monster Party.
Oh, and of course, Shinto shrines play a role in Shenmue. Like the shrine where you find the cat, and Ryo will actually do a small devotion at the shrine in the house if you "use" it.
I could go on and on here, but I think it would be a bit shocking for games made in another country to include an alien religion, like Christianity is in Japan. Even Japanese games that include Christianity might not quite get it... it might be used the way Western games use pagan religious elements.
Well anyway, for more information on the Shinto religion, consult your local library!
"MIT betrayed all of its basic principles."
...and remember, Jesus saves.
Sarah Silverman? Is that you? You're all I want for Hanukkah!
Plenty of games have religion in them - it's just not the "Sister Mary now feels comfortable with video games" type.
Examples:
* Deus Ex has a heavy religious theme throughout it; many of the inconsequential characters speak of religious/spiritual themes.
* Fallout 3 has prevailant religious groups throughout
* In Black and White, you play God. (How more religiously themed than that can you get?)
* Baldur's Gate and the various derived D&D games have a lot of religion.
I seem to recall alignment, and a character's benevolence, playing into a lot of other games (and I'm not talking about all D&D type games here, either - just can't recall specifics). I know I felt a bit of an ethical tinge while playing KotoR and I did something that skewered my alignment "dark".
(I don't know; I really don't play all that many games to know which ones have what, nevermind which have religion.)
If we're talking about Protestantism/Catholicism/Islam/Christianity, those people can push off. I'm sorry, but life is more complex than church twice a week and sometimes on Saturday, and most importantly, that stuff isn't interesting. That stuff (typically) isn't interesting. People who think that "unless it's got baby Jesus in it, it's of the devil" aren't worth catering to. Many of these people think Zelda is demonic because of the monsters and critters (demons!), and that it's corrupting their youth because it doesn't focus on Allah (or Christ). Seriously?
Now, a couple "religious" game theme I'd love to see well and thoroughly implemented:
* Noah's Ark. You play Noah, in Sodom/Gomorrah. Make it dark, because those were (according to the Bible) dark cities, with dark people. Can you get Noah, the only pure-of-heart man still alive, to build the ark and gather the necessary animals before his pisses off God? Diverse RPG with some RTS elements as well as possible situation extrapolation leading to FPS type stuff.
* Biblical battles in an RTS type game. Battle of Jericho with the "smite" hero attack, anyone? That'd be fucking awesome, and would be easy enough to do using existing/available engines, I'd think. Bonus points for being able to tie moral platitudes and spiritual absolutes into a player's/character's ability to fight well. (Though, that last bit might have too much repetition.)
* Think Thief, but with Jews. Maybe they're fighting the Palestines and need spy work; maybe they're trying to escape from concentration camps and/or fight the Nazis.
* hmm Inglorious Basterds, the game? Sounds fun!
* Armageddon, the game. (On the other hand, making it balanced might be difficult and poorly conductive of multiplayer participation.)
* Play a demon which goes about possessing people who are doing nefarious deeds - fucking, cheating, drinking, hypocrisy, whatever (pick your vice). Bonus points for the church-goers. Make it a FPS with RP characteristics: you level your demon up and eventually challenge the higher demons for status.
(And I really do think the first couple examples could be fun/well done.)
Failing that, what more do these people want? MOST games are shit; it's not just the religiously themed ones that suck.
(That said, I remember playing a Zelda 2-like game on the NES years ago that was, essentially, Noah's Ark. It wasn't that bad.)
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
The treatment in Dragon Age: Origins seems pretty good. It's clear that it has been informed by Christianity (in all its morally-ambiguous sometimes-schismatic glory) but is also clearly something else so people don't need to get too offended. Within the game it has the benefit too of not being a mechanistic thing, but rather a motivating force for many of the NPCs. It's also had a bit of effort put into the sacred texts.
"Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
The game's already been written. See black and white. You get to be the God of the religion, decide how good or evil you are and do battle with other gods. You make miracles and get people to worship you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_&_White_(video_game)
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
Shin Megami Tensei
Super Famicom
Atlus
This game didn't use religion to make any kind of social statement, but that didn't stop it from the misappropriation of religious references the world over.
Firstly, your allies include an avatar of Law, who we first meet being crucified in a dream. Later, he sacrifices himself for you and your cause, and is reborn as the son of God. Second, there is the avatar of Chaos, who we first meet being consumed by a demon. Later on he actually fuses himself with a demon and leave you because he doesn't need to be around weaklings like you. Of course, we ALSO have a messiah figure in the form of your heroine. Masters of subtlety, these game designers are.
The native gods of Japan have been awakened by a mad general who has decided that we humans have a lot to learn from demons and need to embrace them. This is the "Chaotic" path, BTW. All the followers of this mindset are dressed as shinto and buddhist priests and monks... appearantly they also like to hang out with feral cat women, succubae, and the man behind the scenes, Lui Cypher... Doubtless, this is an attempt on the part of eastern religions to attract the worship of lustful young men.
Of course, the flipside is the "Lawful" monsters and people. The people tend to dress like fanatical Chritian zealots, and like to keep the company of Angels, Vishnu, and the most worshipped god in America, Thor. In fact, Thor disguises himself as an American ambassador just to talk the heroes into getting rid of the "Chaotic" demons in Tokyo before they spread. Regardless of whether you choose to go Lawful or Chaotic (believe it or not, you do have a choice) Thor casts his hammer of Judgement down on Tokyo in the form of American Nukes so that the world will be ready for the 1000 year kingdom of God. Hey, no demons are gonna mess with US!
So, the characters go to Hell and talk to a guy that resembles Jesus. They visit the lake of the Dead, go back to earth years later, and have to decide just whose side they're going to pick.
Also of note, one of the strongest attack spells in the game is named "Megido," And the intro of the game invokes as many different names of god as it can without mentioning Jehova or Yaweh... Though it does say Tetragrammaton, which is pretty much the same. This of course is the key to summoning any demon or devil of your choosing to serve you. Be careful, because if you turn this game on while sitting in the center of a pentagram, and burning inscence next to the TV, Satan will appear and make you nice and toasty.
Submitted by Drexle: An ardent fan of the Megami Tensei franchise.
(anon coward due to it not being my text)
Are we really supposed to believe that people that excel at a kind of looping, repetitive, analytic logic are really going to believe in the Great Spaghetti Monster? A God-game is only going to be fun as fantasy or history.
Quack, quack.
Lest we forget Left Behind: Eternal Forces, the video game based on the evangelical born-again Christian Tom Clancy / Stephen King-esque, "Left Behind" series.
Join an armed Christian militia after the Rapture (Wait. Weren't all the Christians called up in the rapture? What's the point of faith, if after it becomes super-obvious that one religion was true, you get a mulligan? Doesn't that defeat the whole purpose of faith?) who go through the streets of New York shooting UN soldiers that are now part of the Anti-Christ's One World Government(tm), shooting down Black Helicopters, and either converting or shooting the unsaved. (Nothing like spreading the message of the Prince of Peace with the barrel of a gun.)
Yes, This game was a parody of itself.
Needless to say, this game caused quite a bit controversy when released.
Why do you zealous idiots keep clinging to that completely delusional assertion? The only relationship between the two is that BOTH religion and ethics have an origin in primal emotions, but it's not at all a causal relationship. Ethics will still exist even in the complete absence of all religion, because those primal emotions will still exist to drive the process. Well, at least until some possible future evolutionary mutation where emotions take an even further back seat; if that happens no one will feel that overpowering need for religion, and ethics will have to evolve to be fully grounded in logic (of the Greater Good).
Here's a little thought experiment: What if every human lived isolated from every other, say, everyone on their own little private islands or deep in separate caves? Where would religion and ethics fit in that scenario?
Simple: religion would still arise, though each person's version of it would be different than the next, because there would be no groupthink to force the adoption of just one or a few. Ethics, however, at least humano-centric ethics, would be completely absent: in the absence of human interaction, ethics are not needed. Religion, however, is a spontaneous emotional need that arises even in complete isolation.
Organized - aka politicized - religion likes to claim a copyright on ethics, however, in an attempt to justify the very existence of the religious organization.
This is why humanity needs a persistent Borg-like collective consciousness, so that those of us who aren't mired in groupthink and self-delusion don't have to keep smacking those of you who are still mired in it across the forehead with the same 2-by-4 of logic century after century....
Damn. I was gonna buy Assassin's Creed 2 already... but now... there's no way in hell I'm NOT buying it.
Joke aside... well that's it, all I have for you is a joke :(
For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
I have been modded to "Offtopic" for the main reply which talked about the referenced article's spelling and grammar.
I was trying to make a point about how easy it is to be distracted from the topic (as in "goes badly" in the article's title "When religion and games intersect--and how it often goes badly") by extraneous issues (like spelling and grammar, or religion.)
It obviously takes more than just a few lines to impress my fellow /. mods :)
Looking at space, radio, science and computing from a 'down-under' amateur enthusiast perspective.
Even tough many educated people consider blasphemy a victimless crime... I'm for critical thinking and logic in games. Say a game where you'd be wearing teletubbies cloth and have random sentences extracted from {insert any book from various sects past and present, still active and mythological} flying around. Then you'd have to shoot them with your various logical fallacies gun, by first putting them in the correct mode. Argumentum at populum? Switch your teletubbies's gun to 'aap' mode and shoot the sentence. Now that would be great.
maybe the problem is that religious games (I don't know even one counter example) focus to much on conveying the religion and to little on stuff like A STORY, or GAMEPLAY... they're like most educational games, they just AREN'T FUN TO PLAY.
http://www.cinemassacre.com/new/?p=3878
http://www.cinemassacre.com/new/?p=4069
The MAFIAA is a bunch of mindless jerks who will be the first up against the wall when the revolution comes
> No, they did it to spread communism.
A brand of communism drenched in atheism that believed there would be no end to turmoil until religion was extinct...
> In light of this, the skeptical viewpoint is the only sensible one, and if we so far haven't been able to deal with that truth without killing people, then we need to figure out how. Trying to make everyone believe in the same superstition doesn't seem like a very workable solution here and religion has never been very good at tolerance.
Oh, so you knew that already? Because here you are, agreeing with their reasons for doing it...
I think that the whole thing about the Maoist and Stalinist persecutions is to point out that atheism isn't exactly any better in the whole "we don't kill people who disagree with us" camp. In fact, it's significantly worse, having done all of its killing after most religions had *stopped* doing exactly that (with some exceptions for radical Islam and a handful of other nuts who aren't very lethal).
"Real" (as opposed to something made up because it suits the theme of the game) religion in games is about as welcome as a christmas ham at hannukah. There is NO place for modern organized religion in games. This is nothing more than modern religion wanting to take a slice of the multi billion dollar gaming industry. Seriously folks, you've lost the plot, GREED is supposed to be something you are AGAINST.
Let me be clear: you are NOT welcome here, so GET LOST.
You and all the advertising industry retards who SOMEHOW thing we're STILL not clicking through on their ads because we did not notice them.
Do NOT need religion (or advertising) shoved down my throat in a game, will NOT buy "a real religious game", ever.
Visit CryptoGnome in his home.
As an atheist here is my (and The Exploited's) opinion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Alyw2PILEho
It is pathetic how people in some countries are afraid to criticise religion, or mock its farcical stupidity. I'd like to see games that poke some fun at this nonsense. The fact that people take religion seriously, is what is responsible, in large part for nearly all terrorism, and war. Religion has no facts, so until it does, why should anyone show it any respect whatsoever? In reality, all forms of religion are a mental illness, after all, how does religion differ from believing in flying pigs, orbiting chocolate teapots, or that my neighbours pet dog is a god with amazing powers to commit mass genocide - just like in the christian bible?
Even when groups like the Christian Game Developers Foundation put out a video encouraging developers to create wholesome titles for kids
There is nothing "wholesome" about religion, and least of all the monotheistic ones. They've caused more suffering, pain and death throughout history than any other singular source, and more than most other sources combined. They've held technological progress back more, more reliably, more consistently and much longer than Microsoft. And if you extend the reach to organized religion (i.e. the churches) - well, they're involved in more bribery, scamming, child abuse and a whole lot of other crimes than the Mafia.
We already have one abomination called "christian rock". Let's keep our games clear of this taint, please.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
And it needs to seriously stay the fuck away from my industry. Fictional religious content is fine, but I wont stand for it interfering with the industry I hold so dear. You know, it's a shame really. Most of the religious people I meet are nice people, if a little misled.
Messiah
Why do you zealous idiots keep clinging to that completely delusional assertion?
The post to which you responded didn't go off on a rant completely unrelated to their parent posting and didn't make a whole raft of ad hominem attacks on the parent with no evidence to justify them whatsoever. Read what the posting actually said and consider what it really implied (which was quite modest, as far as I can see -- that religion doesn't have a monopoly on evil). Then consider which of you looks more like a zealous idiot.
Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
Now there's an idea for a video game.
Rules of Acquisition #104: Faith moves mountains... of inventory. source
Candle burns its brightest in the dark
There are issues of religion brought up behind a thin veil in Dragon Age. The different countries of medieval Europe are represented, as well as shoddy treatment of Jews (read: elves.) In addition to this, there is a powerful church organization that some people think is too oppressive. There's even the legacy of the Roman empire and I think the Babylonian captivity is mentioned.
I didn't see Dragon Age in the article, but this is because the game isn't really about these things. They are incidental, and can occupy as much or as little time as you like. Your NPC companions in the game sometimes get into religious debates with each other, depending on your squad selection.
When the axe came to the forest, the trees said, "Look out - the handle was once one of us."
"A brand of communism drenched in atheism that believed there would be no end to turmoil until religion was extinct..." /me looks at Israel and Palestine, Iran and USA, Afghanistan, India and Pakistan.
Yep. Seems that communists were right.
Part of the problem is that the game industry is often touted as being a corrupting influence for the youth of the world.
Much like religion.
I'm not convinced it works well for every religion to _be_ the video game.
I honestly don't care if there are games targeted to a particular religious audience; just label it so I won't waste my money on a it. Just give me the respect a consumer deserves. I don't want someone coming to the door proselytizing, stay out of my computer.;
My sons and I have been batting around game ideas for many years now, and we've considered the subject of a religious-themed game many times. We're pretty much agreed that it would not be possible to make a game that is both good from a gameplay perspective and at the same time good from a faith or doctrinal perspective.
Now, it would be possible to make a good/UNserious religious game. The Chronicles of Riddick is an excellent example of an invented religion that works wonderfully well to drive the story, define characters, and provide motivation.
As an aside, there are very few accurate portrayals of the peacefulness of religion in fiction. Religious people are almost always shown as fighting, torturing, and basically steam-rolling people into believing. But no true believer would ever do such a thing, of course. The power of religion is in having the capital-T Truth, and Truth never has to be forced, it just is. Real preachers and teachers use moral suasion, not war.
However, there seems to be an inexhaustible supply of political extremists who are only too happy to cloak themselves in the language and symbolism of religion to take advantage of people. Nazism, for example, often appropriated religion to serve its political ends. No doubt this is what Islamic extremists are doing today.
42 is the answer to life, the universe and everything, not god...
So why makes games of the tool (religion) that has been merely used to control masses of uneducated peons.
Human kind should finally wake up from this bad dream...
--
If there is such thing as a GOD he's definitely not worth praying to!
Plenty of video games already have magic and make-believe.
Ive got an idea for a game that could be big and would make a great statement of faith but i don't have the assets needed to make the game.
if anybody would like to make a try for it email me.
(note this will require a High End games engine to work properly)
Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
Pretty much any game that involves animals pushes the Disney "animals good/people evil" and environmental activism themes (well, except the Deer Hunter series). There's also a fine line between racial or gender equality and reverse racism/sexism, similar to what we see coming out of Hollywood all the time, e.g. Avatar.
It would be even more wrong to try and stop the producers from pushing an agenda though. Just be aware that many are sending a message one way or the other. Like the news outlets, you can disagree with their bias but you can't shut them down
I'm very interested in religion. And, the Sid Meier Civ series has been a favorite for a long time. So, when I found that Civ4 was going to have a religious component, I was looking forward to it. I was very disappointed, though. I'd hoped for something like the factions from Alpha Centauri, but they religions were completely generic. I assumed they didn't give them actual TRAITS to avoid offending anyone. I think it lost a possibility for another dimension because of it.
Some people might be dismissive of the fictional religions that occur in LOTS of games, but these can often be used to discuss topics from non-fictional religions. Dragon Age has a woman making quotes from her religious text. Only she does it badly, completely changing the meaning.
these expansion packs cost a fortune!
You know; the diseased try to eat your brain so that you become one of them? I think the shotgun solution is rather extreme. . , though it IS just a metaphor. . .
Zombies certainly have forsaken the ability to be reasoned with.
Faith is fine and wonderful and very powerful, but putting faith into something without first exercising one's powers of observation and logical deduction, (and the ability to disengage the ego when observation and logical deduction tell you things which you find upsetting), then using faith is just foolish. It's like using a hammer while blindfolded. It is necessary to use one's other faculties to determine the existence of a nail before throwing the full weight of certainty behind the swing. Otherwise, you're just doing what a long lineage of psychopathic cult leaders instruct you to do. Doesn't it make sense to research the source of a text you plan to base your entire life on? And the source of that source? Do that correctly and you'll drop religion like the hot rock it is.
There's a reason everything religious has the same vague feel and smell of an infomercial / blissed-out con job.
Yes, we have lots of zombie games already, thanks.
-FL
The down side is all those archetypes are a bit dusty and old too. If you want something fresher that might appeal more to the kids, try another religion's mythology! They'll probably have got exposure to the Greek and Roman ones in school, but the stories from the Hindu or Buddhist traditions would make for some fine gaming! And Chinese and Russian mythology are chock full of interesting characters you could bring to the party! Yup the sky's the limit for exploiting religion for financial gain!
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Religion? RELIGION? I don't need to show you any stinking religion!
One of the best delivered lines to this day in a movie.
On that note, one clarion call for the 1970s is the adage, "Reality is for people who can't handle drugs."
I propose we brush off this adage and upgrade it to the 2.0 version, "Reality is for people who can't handle video games."
Who needs religion? I got WoW!
The religious people deserve to be 100% ignored in games, they deserve it.
Why?
Well most video games are either:
1.) 1st person shooter
2.) Role playing AD&D
I've been playing AD&D since 1977 when Chainmail was upgraded to Dungeons and Dragons.
Well, things were going just fine until the early 1980s when some wackos took their role playing too far in Wisconsin and someone died. The religious community immediately stigmatized the ENTIRE gaming community as devil-worshiping loonies based on this ONE anecdote. As a consequence, a couple of years later the Dieties and Demigods manual was revised to "Monster Manual" and all vestiges of religion were wiped from the game.
Let this be a warning to any are thinking of putting "religion" into video games.
Do so at your own peril because these same Yahoos! clamoring for this will turn against you and besmirch your game exactly the way they did AD&D.
So don't do it.
It's called Karma. Let them reap what they sowed.
Amen. LOL.
Agnosticism is about epistemology -- it's the position that you can't know for certain whether or not god exists.
Theism/atheism is about ontology.
Theism is believing gods exist.
Atheism is believing god does not exist.
Most agnostics are either atheist or theist. There are few agnostics who leave the existence of god in that quantum state of both existing and not existing.
Microsoft is to software what Budweiser is to beer.
Having kids indoctrinated to believe in unprovable supernatural beings can only make the world a worse place.
If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
In Africa, many Christians are targeted.
Of course, that's by other, different Christians.
Microsoft is to software what Budweiser is to beer.
You must watch this, if you haven't already:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bar3GOzDNzg
Happy holidays! Hehe.
-b
No offense, but I've stopped responding to AC's.
Religion has been in games for a long time. Civilization, Final Fantasy, Xenogears & Xenosaga, Dragon Quest, Okami, Goemon, Chrono Trigger... what do you want here? Yes, sometimes game developers are hesitant to put games in because of how quick people are to blame them for offensive content, and if there is anything to talk about, that's the issue that needs to be addressed here.
You are a sick, sick person and Chanukah ended a week and a bit ago.
Fuck religion, period.
Many old fps had religious content, Rune, Doom etc. But, when it came to making a picture the producers made Doom into some viral attack and in the upcoming Hollywood version of Thor he has been revamped into some super hero. Some religions get more respect in media than others: Buddhism > Judaism > Christianity > Norse > Profanity > MacOS For good or bad, I don't know.
I know God is real, Jesus is LORD. Because he is good, loving, and defeats evil, I also worship him. I'm a video game designer so I've considered making games with "God in them" for years. The problem is that when you put God in a video game, you're basically putting God in a box. There's no telling what God would actually do in any situation because God is so far above us in our thinking!
God spoke to me.
That's a convenient rewriting of history. In fact, Nazism was closely tied to Christianity.
The German protestant church became the official state church in 1933. Luther, its founder, was a anti-semite.
Nazi antisemitism was based on centuries of antisemitism in both the Catholic and protestant churches in Germany.
And Hitler and Goebbels themselves were born and officially registered as a Catholic.
The Catholic church grumbled about Nazism, but not so much because they disagreed with the political goals of the Nazis, but simply because they weren't invited to the party.
And Nazi election posters and policies read like modern conservative Christian campaigns: family values, nuclear families, pride in one's country, law and order, etc.
Really? I had one of my Jr. High aged kids read your post and she went away shaking her head.
There have been problems in our world for all of recorded history in a diverse group of civilizations. The United States was really a reasonably decent place to live when I was growing up. People left their doors unlocked in large swaths of the country. Nobody was afraid to stop and help someone parked along the road. Neighbors helped each other out. Kids drove to school in our part of the country with loaded rifles in the cab windows of their trucks. Taking knives into the schools was a frequent occurrence and nobody thought anything about it. Drugs and alcohol abuse still occurred, but it wasn't as prevalent as it is today. I would leave home on my bike at 8 and spend the day at miniature golf and parents didn't think a thing about it because they knew I would be OK.
I won't claim that the lower position that religion has everywhere today (from school to parent's attitudes) is the sole cause of things being worse today. There are probably many reasons. Some of the drop in importance of religion has been brought on by religion itself. A lot of the drop is due to the fact that the generation of the 60's and 70's largely checked out of the social system, and their kids are the ones paying the price. But I am quite sure that taking all religion out of the world would not make the world a better place. The same crazy people who wrap themselves in the name of a religion when doing their evil deeds would still be doing their evil deeds. They'd just wrap a different cloak around it. Unfortunately the reverse is not true when large bodies of people are concerned. Good does need a support system. Perhaps it shouldn't, but it does. It is easy for an evil person to want to keep stirring up mischief or doing evil. It is hard for a good person to keep doing good when the amount of good that needs done seems so vast. That's where the support system of religion helps. You no longer feel that you are alone in trying to make a difference.
When natural disasters strike, many respond. Yet it is frequently organized religious groups that are prepared to make the most difference the quickest. Governments may decide to step in, and when they do, they can overwhelm the area compared to what religious organizations can do. But for all the disasters that occur around the world, it is frequently the religious groups that shoulder the burden. The more local the disaster, the bigger the help of strictly religious groups. Take the Salvation Army as an example. If that body was removed, would the world be better off or worse off?
I read a long debate a while back on objective reality versus subjective reality. It is difficult to prove God exists to someone whose mind is closed. For those who chose to have an open mind, it is easy to see His hand at work all around the world. Until you let Him change your heart, you will never really see the change belief in God brings.
I'd rather an NPC take a dump on my player than try to fill my mind with some religion's noxious crap.
In the video game Breath of Fire 2, the enemy of the game is the god of an obviously Catholic-like church. This god is actually a demon, and has tricked all its followers into worshiping him.
Breath of Fire 2 was released in the US during the heyday of the SNES, and it's very surprising to me that Nintendo let the game through their censorship policies of the day with such obvious anti-religious overtones. The churches in the game even had priests and nuns.
"Screw Sun, cross-platform will never work. Let's move on and steal the Java language." - Visual J++ Product Manager
"A brand of communism drenched in atheism that believed there would be no end to turmoil until religion was extinct..." /me looks at Israel and Palestine, Iran and USA, Afghanistan, India and Pakistan.
Yep. Seems that communists were right.
Which Afghanistan are we talking about? The current one or the one in which the USSR invaded a country to try to add it to their atheistic empire?
How about the Khmer Rouge who slaughtered a sizeable portion of their own population to follow a green atheist philosophy?
It's not good to lump all religions together - all of the religious conflicts in the world right now involve Islam against some other religion (Hindus, Christians, whatever).
"Which Afghanistan are we talking about? The current one or the one in which the USSR invaded a country to try to add it to their atheistic empire?"
The one which was always under the brain-dead variant of Islam.
"How about the Khmer Rouge who slaughtered a sizeable portion of their own population to follow a green atheist philosophy?"
They were not atheists. In fact, they probably believed nothing, thinking that men are worse than animals.
"It's not good to lump all religions together - all of the religious conflicts in the world right now involve Islam against some other religion (Hindus, Christians, whatever)."
And Christian vs. Christian (Ireland, anyone?), Christian vs. gays (see Uganda), etc.
What I don't see is atheist fundamentals destroying churches and/or killing people in the name of non-God.
Ah... That game brings back some serious memories. That was the game my senior year in college...
To this day I'm glad Square had the balls to actually do a state-side release. They were too worried that the religious themes would scare off customers / annoy the religious nutters.
Unfortunately, I can't really play it anymore. The graphics were sub-par even when it was released, and now they're almost unwatchable. Though it did have one of the greatest soundtracks I've ever heard in a game. If only they hadn't made the prequels such a mess...
Im surprised xenogears and the xenosaga series hasn't been brought up.
the lead male tends to be the reincarnation or whatever of adam,abel, jesus, etc
the female lead tends to be the reincarnation of eve or mary madylene
hell the main enemies in xenosaga are called gnosis. and Zohars are 50 foot tall golden crosses
anyone?
"Religion was born when the first con man met the first fool." -- Mark Twain
I'd like to buy homeland for our 10 million people. http://twitter.com/mahadiga
(as cited here: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=King+of+the+Hill)
Hank (to a "hardcore" christian rock band): "Can't you see you're not making christianity any better, you're just making rock 'n roll worse".
I figure the general concepts discussed with regards to music would carry over well to video games or other creative endeavors. Also, many of the things said about religious messages in art could also apply to nonreligious messages.
Okay, you have an artist who wants to deliver a message. The message could fuel an especially good piece of art, or it could overpower the art in question.
A bad artist isn't going to become good just because they are delivering a message, kind of like how a bad comedian isn't going to become funny just because he's obscene. However, in continuation of that comment, good comedians working dirty can be quite funny, just like how a good artist can be successful when delivering a message.
While there are definite pitfalls, I don't see this as an an *inherently* bad idea.
I've found myself appreciating some pieces of art even if I don't care for the message, since they're, in general, well-done. That would be one mark of success for a religious video game or some other "message" thing.
Whether it's successful in getting people to care about the message, that's an issue that I don't want to get into.
What I think about the message these Christian types are pushing for, that's *another* issue I don't want to get into right now.
And this is nothing against artworks that are, in the words of Seinfeld, "a [show|song|movie] about nothing." Or maybe not being overtly about something sometimes mean it is about something else. :P
I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
Simply put, video games are created using an system called "science". Through technology, these heathen games are created using such well-known anti-christian systems such as "mathematics" and "physics". The problem here is that video games are created in the real world and despite having aliens or flying or superpowers, are far more believable than most organized religions.
There are many examples of atheists that didn't give up to the the snake oil of religion during hard times.
Carl Sagan just to cite one example.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
In the case of the Inquisition the maniacs made clear their were acting in the name of religion.
In the case of the Soviets they never claimed to be acting in the name of Atheism (which was important in the Soviet state, but was not the major ideological point of the system, all Communist states tolerated religion eventually, and even promoted some forms of it that were sanctioned by the state).
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
>>They were not atheists. In fact, they probably believed nothing, thinking that men are worse than animals.
Bzzt, wrong.
>>What I don't see is atheist fundamentals destroying churches and/or killing people in the name of non-God.
Wrong again -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dechristianization_of_France_during_the_French_Revolution
>>And Christian vs. Christian (Ireland, anyone?), Christian vs. gays (see Uganda), etc.
Ireland has calmed down. I don't think there is a religious conflict, as such, going on right now in Uganda.
First, you are looking at the past through rose-colored glasses. If your perceptions were true, then few centuries ago we would had a paradise on Earth (because sentimental memories like yours are frequent throughout all of recorded history), which is obviously not true.
(as a sidenote - you should know that stats show your place hasn't really changed when it comes to main topic of this discussion. It can be even possible that religion is more prevalent in last two decades, with slight amount of certain groups moving towards extremism)
Secondly - yes, many societal factors are at play.
But at the same time - when really looking at whole picture, there is certainly quite strong correlation between organic lack of religions and positive societal factors; how "nice" it is to live in particular place. Norway, Sweden, Czech Republic, Estonia, Germany, Japan, South Korea - they all lead in both afaik, all the more impressive for post-Soviet among those which had a lot of catch-up to do in just two decades (while religious post-Soviet states universally don't fare nearly so well - coincidence?). OTOH it is almost a rule throughout the world (again, when looking at whole picture!) that you wouldn't really want to live in deeply religious places.
That said, yes, I fully agree, just taking religions out of the world wouldn't make it better. It would result in quite a big mess; they are a very effective way of cementing society and suppressing destructive impulses towards other members of it (while doing that to much lesser degree when it comes to "Others", usefull too). Heck, that's mostly why they evolved in the first place, and why societies with them proved generally more successful in more barbaric times. Some societies don't really need that anymore, hence significant irreligion there arising organically. But many more would we even worse places to live if not for religions. It's just unfortunate that too many, IMHO, bright minds are caught into this; so much thought wasted. Though so far that price seems at least borderline worth it on the scale of the world.
Religious organizations being the quickest to respond is simply the most basic selection bias - majority of the world is religious so of course there will a lot of religious organizations present everywhere; all the more if you want to see them, or they want to be seen by you. Especially since that's one of their main modes of action - remember, only religions that worked out effective ways of collecting followers survived; and humanitarian efforts, apart from their disaster-mitigating value, are also good at making fabulous impression...
Also, about ending of you post - IMHO, the way you present conclusions of that debate, it just displayed rampant intellectual dishonesty; of the worst kind (doing what it claims to criticize)
Majority of places with large number of "unbelievers" are a very recent development. Those people were usually brought up to believe by their parents and society. The choice to be irreligious was their own, they proved that they can diametrically change their mind. OTOH vast majority of religious folks just remain with what shaped them in their youth. And if they want to see something, want to feel something - they will.
One that hath name thou can not otter
Xenogears is one game that applies religious concepts particularly well. It deals with themes of human spirituality, blind devotion, artificial intelligence, and culminates with 2 opposing ideas of how deal with the problem of human suffering.
I keep running into demon-ridden idiots.
I write sci-fi for metalheads
There is nothing in that article that suggests atheists were responsible for the destruction of the Church in France. You just pulled that out of thin air. In fact very few people considered themselves atheists at that time. It's a common practice in history to claim that someone who is against your particular religion and its power structure is inherently an atheist but that doesn't make it true.
Time makes more converts than reason
>>There is nothing in that article that suggests atheists were responsible for the destruction of the Church in France. You just pulled that out of thin air. In fact very few people considered themselves atheists at that time.
History fail. The French Revolution is actually considered the time in which atheism first became vogue in Europe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism#Early_modern_period
Will you admit you're wrong?
I will not admit I'm wrong. Avowed atheists were only a small number. Blaming atheists for the de-christianization of France shows a lack of understanding of the French revolution. The backlash against Catholicism was about the power structure not the existence of God. You framed your argument in a way to make it seem like de-christianization was about religion when it was really about politics. Most people involved with the de-christianization were still believers and the atheists themselves were rounded up and executed before all was said and done. Maybe that's difficult for you to understand because it involves a deeper understanding of the French revolution than pulling a few questionable quotes from a Wikipedia article.
Time makes more converts than reason
Right, and that's why we saw things like the Cult of Reason, replacing the names of the week with atheist names, etc., because they were so few and uninfluential?
I've studied the French Revolution. I'd recommend you do the same.
Obviously it was a heterogeneous mixture, and different factions in the revolution had different takes on it. But it doesn't change the facts.