Slashdot Mirror
Ginkgo Doesn't Improve Memory Or Cognitive Skills
JumperCable writes "Ginkgo biloba has failed — again — to live up to its reputation for boosting memory and brain function. Just over a year after a study showed that the herb doesn't prevent dementia and Alzheimer's disease, a new study from the same team of researchers has found no evidence that ginkgo reduces the normal cognitive decline that comes with aging. In the new study, the largest of its kind to date, DeKosky and his colleagues followed more than 3,000 people between the ages of 72 and 96 for an average of six years. Half of the participants took two 120-milligram capsules of ginkgo a day during the study period, and the other half took a placebo. The people who took ginkgo showed no differences in attention, memory, and other cognitive measures compared to those who took the placebo, according to the study, which was published in this week's Journal of the American Medical Association."
These euro-centric "scientists" can't see pas their narrow-minded blinders to tap into the millenia of cultural experience embodied in Eastern medical and spiritual traditions. The point is, Gingko Baloba has a very potent effect when added to the labels of alternative medical products, causing them to fly off the shelves in exchange for cash. Western medicine is just jealous and probably racist and sexist against peoples like me.
UNITE with the Campaign for a Free Internet because today, our future begins with tomorrow!
I have noticed that when I take it, I am more "motivated". I get up out of my chair and do stuff, rather than surf, say, slashdot.
"Send an Instant Karma to me" - Yes
...is ginkgo biloba good for?
Yes but was it ORGANIC Kinkgo?? That is the question! This test was obviously conducted by real doctors who don't want us to know the truth about the power of eating weeds that grow in exotic jungles.
Holy shit, that's a lot of placebo.
But just wait until I convince everyone to eat my lawn. I'll be rich!
Oh wait ... http://www.hollandandbarrett.com/pages/product_detail.asp?pid=138
I bet the herbal supplements industry is hoping its customers will forget all about this report eventually... :)
Aspirin or Ginko?
http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/ginkgo-biloba-000247.htm
Better concentration (some subjects thinking that that is one of the memory functions) could be a side effect of them not having headaches due to hypertension. Sample set yadi yada and so on.... statistics and damned lies.
Or perhaps it's best put, wonders often never materialize in the first place. Is anyone really surprised that something sold with a big "these claims have not been evaluated by the FDA" on the bottle has, in fact, been found to do nothing close to the claim?
Hopefully herbal viagra is next, and some day spammers will be emailing about things people actually can use...*
*(warning the claims in this post have not been evaluated by the FDA)
Well that explains why I can't remember where I put my Gingko.
Seriously though, I had a suspicion 10 years ago when I took it, I couldn't see any difference either.
"They said I probly shouldn't fly with just one eye," "I am Bender. Please insert girder."
Smoke and coffee.
Fuck systemd. Fuck Redhat. Fuck Soylent, too. Wait, scratch the last one.
Wait, what were we talking about?
I seriously doubt that it would improve memory function in younger people if it fails to help the elderly, but are there any studies that involve comparatively younger populations?
"Well, I have a friend who heard from a really smart person/person on the Internet(s) that when he took it he was finally able to almost pass his GED."
Ok, brevity aside, wikipedia "Placebo Effect" and you will see that suggestion can be a cure in it's self.
Viral marketing gone bad?
The "These claims have not been evaluated by the FDA" and its close friend "This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease." are generally a signal that the product is sold as a "dietary supplement" or "nutritional supplement".
Thanks to DSHEA, the FDA legally can't do jack about it unless they have direct evidence of a given product causing serious harm(and their budget for going on epidemiological expeditions for that sort of thing isn't much to write home about).
Whether you consider this a shining beacon of freedom, or an ignoble nest of quacks, it seems likely to remain so for the foreseeable future.
unless the researchers were taking ginkgo to improve their memory and cognitive skills? They probably made a lot of mental mistakes...
You know what they call alternative medicine that works?.... Medicine.
I have this rock here that scares away tigers. Interested?
Cue the "but it worked in my case" replies...
I thought about it more over lunch and rephrased, what I'm getting at is:
really small effective dose of something bad like poison, dead before the liver and kidneys even have a chance.
really huge dose of something bad like too much carbs or too much red meat or too much booze, just too much for liver and kidneys to realistically process, and/or they die trying.
That middle-ground, your innards have a fighting chance at saving you, and thru evolution, they seem to be pretty good at it. And that filtration that saves you from bad stuff, probably filters out similar dosages of good stuff.
Then combine that with the duration effect. Anything required that you don't take for six years, you'll probably be dead, with the possible exception of calcium. Anything bad for you that you take for six years, you'll probably be dead.
Combine the two effects and I'd be very surprised to find something in the mg range that you can take for half a decade that would have much positive or negative result.
"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
Bart never took ginkgo biloba for a reason!
Why, without your clothes, you're naked, Miss Dudley!
My anti-gullibility crystal isn't humming, so it must be legit.
Just to be sure, what is its harmonic resonance, is it in concordance with the feline music of the spheres?
If so, I'll take three, because I've got three empty chakra points that seem optimal for it. It might even keep my thetans regulated, which has been an expensive issue lately.
"This post contains words, known to the State of California to cause thought. Wash brain thoroughly after reading."
I think the lethal dosage of nutmeg is about 3 nuts. Hemlock, some mushrooms, and some berries also have low lethal doses.
I know there are still people that daily suck on raw coca leaves. And they don't consume the leaves, just (I imagine) a few milligrams of 'juice'. It's not killing or curing them. But is has made them coca addicts. Does that count?
I judt got a nre Kinesis keybiartf so please excusr ant egregiou typos.
"FDA legally can't do jack about it"
Thanks Reagan!
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
I take it regularly throughout the day, every day, and it makes a huge difference for me in memory and calmness of thought. I get so worked up sometimes trying to multitask everything.. it really helps focus. I can definitely tell when I've taken it and when I haven't.
Yes, they have a term for this. It's called the placebo effect.
In other news Red Bull dose not actually give you wings and drinking it will not enable you to fly.
We return to our reporter at the scene where emergency crews are cleaning up the mess left by someone who took an add for a food or drink product literally.
Ginkgo is FOOD. Not medicine. Meaning that all the distributors need to prove is that it isn't poisonous and they can sell it with all kinds of wild claims attached. Perhaps the rules should change to require literal truth. "Our bear makes other people more beautiful to you"
--= Isn't it surprising how badly I spell ?
I dream of a day when products can only claim to do something that has been proven by unbiased testing. If the result that is desired is known and the testers understand that fact, they can make nearly any test say anything. Herbal items are not forced to be tested for safety or effectiveness. This is a problem since there are commercials and magazine articles that tout the benefits. If all of them were created to some standard and it was proven to work, then it is fine, otherwise they should just be able to say. This product may do something for some people and no more.
I read the book Natural Causes a while back and it opened my eyes to the sham that the supplement industry is. Note I said industry, not supplements. I'm sure some of these things have useful effects, and would love to see more experiments performed to determine what they are. Until then, I won't ever touch them again, including even multivitamins.
You are completely wrong.
You might want to lok into dosages of pharmaceuticals.
Serotonin reuptake inhibitors can have a dosage between 5mg - 150mg. a day.
It's the dose that makes the poison.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
"Our bear makes other people more beautiful to you"
Is that a Care Bear, or what kind of bear, exactly?
Track your TV Shows with your iPhone - FREE
"Hopefully herbal viagra is next, and some day spammers will be emailing about things people actually can use..."
that is like waiting for the world to change, spammers have plenty or subjects, porn, money scams, pyramid scams, i could go on, but it's better if i don't. charging for email would solve the scam problems by at least 75%
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
They will still be able to continue to sell this with the same exact claims. So long as it's a "supplement" and not a medication, nothing can be done under current regulations. The only thing that would get it removed from shelves if it was proven toxic, and even then maybe not.
Dr DeKosky reports receiving grants or research support from Elan, Myriad, Neurochem, and GlaxoSmithKline and serving on the advisory boards of or consulting for AstraZeneca, Abbott, Baxter, Daichi, Eisai, Forest, Genentech, GlaxoSmithKline, Lilly, Medivation, Merck, NeuroPharma, Neuroptix, Pfizer, Myriad, and Servier.
Conflict of interest much?
It's "Tipsy Bear" from the care bear family. Either that or kind of "beer" you drink.
--= Isn't it surprising how badly I spell ?
So what does improve memory or cognitive skills? I've heard of rampant use of things like Adderall at universities, any personal stories? What about things like Piracetam? I remember reading about that in Mondo 2000 and always wondered if it was bunk.
Not to say that ginkgo's hype isn't overdone tremendously, or that this report isn't spot on, but the news reports of the test aren't quite right either.
The primary outcome analysis from the Ginkgo Evaluation of Memory (GEM) study, the largest completed randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled dementia prevention trial to date,1 found that G biloba, 120 mg twice daily, was not effective in reducing the incidence of Alzheimer dementia or dementia overall.
Beyond consideration of a clinical dementia outcome, however, it is possible that G biloba may have had more subtle, therapeutic effects on the rate of cognitive change. Specifically, G biloba may have prevented or delayed age-related changes in individuals with normal cognition, or G biloba may have slowed the rate of decline in those characterized as having mild cognitive impairment (MCI). Indeed, in the United States and particularly in Europe, G biloba is perhaps the most widely used herbal treatment consumed specifically to prevent age-related cognitive decline.2 Putative mechanisms of action on brain functioning include vascular effects such as cerebral vasorelaxation and reduction of blood viscosity,3-4 reduction of oxygen free radicals,5 and neurotransmitter system effects.6-7 Moreover, some in vitro studies indicate that G biloba may inhibit amyloid aggregation, suggesting another mechanism of preventing or delaying cognitive decline associated with Alzheimer disease.
I haven't seen any Ginkgo tablets or information saying it's supposed to be any good for Alzheimer's. The study does not cover younger people, rather just the old. And that's fine in context. Ginkgo will not help people overcome cognitive issues due to Alzheimer's or advanced age. Great. Save money. At least it's not contributing to a bad life. Again, the studies only show that's it's not effective in these cases, not that it's never effective.
As always, science is all about how you split the hair, and there's nothing wrong with that when presented as such. "Common sense", while a potentially helpful myth, also told us the world was flat and that we couldn't fly. Picking apart the myths and truths of ginkgo will help in finding something that does what the marketers advertise, even if it leads back to just sipping ginkgo tea in a garden.
"Common sense will be the death of us all"
Don't try 120 mg of nicotine.
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=3235#more-3235
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
You might find "In Defense of Food: An Eater's Manifesto" by Michael Pollan interesting if you followed that line of thought.
"Common sense will be the death of us all"
Reagan was a prick; but DSHEA was signed in 1994, at which point Clinton was in office, and Reagan was barely sentient.
If you want a real villain of the piece, look no further than Orrin Hatch (R) Utah. He is a pretty lovable guy to begin with, being the guy who actually suggested, in seriousness, amending the computer fraud and abuse act to allow copyright holders to destroy the computers of suspected infringers. He is also said to be a friend of SCO Group Uberslime Ralph Yarro III's "CP80" mormon moralist pressure group.
It was his lobbying on behalf of the nutritional supplements industry(a generous donor and big local industry) that was instrumental in getting the bill passed.
You either have not read the article, or have no concept of pharmacology (or, possibly, both).
The quantity of 240mg per day is meaningless. What we are interested in is: 240mg *of what*? Try taking a daily dose of 240mg of Foxglove extract; or Ergot infected wheat. I think you'll find quite a profound effect!
This particular study used "Ginko Biloba Extract". All well and good - but what, precisely, was extracted (and what was, therefore, thrown away)? From the manufacturers website:
One ton (1,000 kg) of the dried leaves yields only 20 kg of EGb 761® Ref.
contains approximately 24% flavone glycosides (primarily quercetin, kaempferol and isorhamnetin) and 6% terpene lactones (2.8-3.4% ginkgolides A, B and C, and 2.6-3.2% bilobalide). Ginkgolide B and bilobalide account for about 0.8% and 3% of the total extract, respectively. Ref.
Therefore, by my maths, this study used an extract equivalent to 12 gram of dried leaf per day; a pretty reasonable dose - certainly considering that the same company sells 40mg capsules of EGb 761®. More importantly, patients received a *standardised* extract; We're not talking about Holland & Barrett bargain cheapo tea-leaves here!
It's a rather interesting article. Rather less surprisingly, the manufacturer of the product used in the study has not updated their "latest News" section to include these results!
the ginkgo tree itself is pretty amazing: its the coelacanth of trees
known only from the ancient fossil record, having aspects of a missing link between major plant classifications, and with no other living relatives by a long shot (at least from the perspective of western science). until isolated specimens were located, to western expert's amazed awe, in 1690. it was cultivated in the east, and this probably led to its survival, since the only populations anyone can consider wild are only in a tiny mountain reserve in eastern china... but even this group of trees might only exist because it was tended by monks for millenia, ironically for this story, probably because of medicinal value
in other words, the coelacanth of trees may only continue to exist in this world due to the efforts of ancient man, the inverse relationship between extinction and mankind. either way, if you've ever looked at a ginkgo leaf, you can readily appreciate how ancient and alien the plant is. its like a tiny fan, a completely unique morphology unlike any other leaf you have ever seen on any other plant
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ginkgo_biloba
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Not to say the results of this particular study are necessarily bogus, but sure makes one wonder.
Big pharma dislikes "natural", as in often unpatentable, treatments; discourages their use.
Ron
Never mind then that Vitamin C (arguably an 'unrefined plant material') has the odd effect of making you *not get scurvy and die* as a result of a daily dosage of around 100mg.
Relatively small doses of simple things can affect you in lots of interesting ways. Look at medication that treats thyroid disorders; it's a simple material (although it doesn't grow on trees) dosed out in *micrograms*, the slightest variation of which (less than 15 micrograms for some people, myself included) your body WILL feel the difference of.
Most things, sure, your body sends in one end and it comes out the other relatively unchanged. Certain things, though, are profoundly influential.
"As always, science is all about how you split the hair"
No it's not.
Anyways, here is a good write up on the study:
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=3235#more-3235
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
You are completely wrong.
You might want to lok into dosages of pharmaceuticals.
Serotonin reuptake inhibitors can have a dosage between 5mg - 150mg. a day.
It's the dose that makes the poison.
Well, yes, there are industrially refined and manufactured materials that have an effect in that dosage over half a decade, because livers and kidneys haven't had enough time to evolve to deal with that kind of stuff. If, 10000 years ago, someone licked a rock or whatever and consumed 150 mg of "something", could it have had an effect?
Now a natural, raw, plant based, serotonin reuptake inhibitor that only weighed 150mg in raw form, that would be interesting.
"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
From your link:
"It is impossible however to overdose on nicotine through smoking alone (though a person can overdose on nicotine through a combination of nicotine patches, nicotine gum, and/or tobacco smoking at the same time)."
"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
If your Thetans are not regulated, i.e., running amok, overloading your credit card with charges, then it is because you haven't yet contributed the required amount to the Church of Scientology for reaching the Next Level. You, sir, are one crystal short of Full Sparkle Consciousness. Ask Tom Cruise for pointers.
Could it be that the brains of the test subjects in this study are compromised by disease beyond repair and giving them Ginko at that stage doesn't do anything for them?
I always thought of Ginko in combination with Ginseng as a preventative measure rather than something you take to heal Alzheimer's or reverse it.
I think everyone agrees that Ginko with Ginseng does increase blood flow to the brain, which means more nutrients and more oxygen for the brain. Now this does not mean you will be smarter or suddenly have better memory. It only means that perhaps you have a better potential for those things. If you are a lazy ass, refusing to study or exercise your brain, then no drug will help.
On the other hand, Ginko and Ginseng do have side effects, too much stimulation to sleep and they give you jitters, and of course Ginseng is a blood thinner (just like Aspirin).
As the island of our knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance.
The key words there were "raw materials". Meds are rarely raw materials, they are very concentrated.
I have some experience with alternative health measures and do not believe that ginkgo does much good for memory, either. However, this story does not prove it. Was this study funded, directly or indirectly, by some organization that has a stake in a poor outcome? Were the study participants provided the supplement (I would assume so since they took "two 120-milligram capsules of ginkgo a day". Most ginkgo biloba products are a 50:1 extract of guaranteed potency, although I suppose you could find capsules of the plain herb at Walmart or the drug store, but why did they conduct a study effectively using 50 times less of the active ingredients than is typically recommended? Looks to be the same as other "studies" conducted that use tiny amounts of the subject ingredient, such as studies on vitamin C which use 30mg per day and declare that it has no effect on X, and allows doctors to state authoritatively that vitamin C does no good for X.
What about the placebo effect?
And clearance speed is a factor. I need a mathematician to help me out here, but at a certain half-life a substance begins to accumulate in your system if you're taking daily doses.
I meant to test ginkgo myself but kept forgetting to take it!
(rant on) Some people will fall for anything. Red Bull does nothing more for you than a plain old caffinated soda (the taurine and other "supplements" have NO effect whatsoever). People hear things on the news, read articles in magazines, or hear through word of mouth that there's some new miracle herb or supplement that's gonna change their lives and they waste hundreds to thousands of dollars a year on crap.
Want to be healthy? EAT RIGHT and EXERCISE. Period. (rant off)
/. demographics being what they are, it's unlikely that GPP is in the 72-to-96-year-old age cohort that was used in the study. What he's experiencing may be a placebo effect, or it may be that ginkgo works for younger people. More study is needed, and presenting a study which focuses exclusively on the elderly as saying "gingko doesn't work for anybody" is just as intellectually dishonest as "gingko seems to work for me, so it must be great for everybody!"
The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
Yeah, but at least Zicam had to withdraw its Zinc Gluconate nasal sprays and nasal swabs after enough people lost their sense of smell to it.
Impersonating Tycho from Penny Arcade since before there was a PA.
I'm a little surprised at all the knee-jerk support of big pharma on slashdot.
They should see which groups of people are more compatible with the placebo response/effect.
As the article notes the placebo effect can be very powerful.
Thus I also suspect that having certain sorts of religions or belief systems may be advantageous, since it means you don't actually need a 3rd party to actually physically administer something to you (or pretend to).
For example, a member that believed the FSM or God has helped him, might still be able to function and be useful to his group despite injury - experiencing no incapacitating pain. Or even actually heal better than normal.
Thus groups consisting of such members might be "evolutionarily fitter" and more likely to survive over generations.
In contrast an atheist might not be able to access such an effect as easily - and require a device or procedure. Unless of course there's a medical tech breakthrough - which might happen if the researchers figure out more about the placebo response/effect. It is likely to still require an actual external device/treatment, but it should be better than the placebo in effect or reliability.
Herbal supplement's are not concentrated like pharmaceuticals are.... 120 mg a day won't get you anything. Take 120 mg a day of most herbs that have active drug compounds and you're likely to get no more than a trace of that drug, whereas pharmaceuticals take the active compound and synthesize it - then give you 120 mg of the concentrated compound.
As a laugh, you could take 120 mg of marijuana - even good stuff... and smoke it. That's maybe 1/4 of a joint (you'd get about 2 joints out of a gram of weed if you were conservative). How high are you going to get on 1/4 of a joint? Not very... and THC is a fairly potent compound. Gingko is not nearly as potent.
A fool throws a stone into a well and a thousand sages can not remove it.
Same with argenine, which I'm taking for a soft-tissue injury. It acts as a vasodilator, and there's evidence the increased blood flow to normally low blood flow tissues like tendons and ligaments can help heal them faster.
But all that blood flow has another effect as well...makes me wonder what stuff like Viagra and Cialis are actually like, given the effects of this stuff.
Aside from dosage issues, etc... has anyone considered that people taking "herbal supplements" may also show other behavioral changes which may affect memory and cognitive capacities?
I expect if we attempted the kind of study complicated enough to trace and collect data from a dozen behavioral components (such as amount of reading/writing done, daily exercise, diet, social life, mental health/stability...) we'd find that one factor does not control memory loss or cognitive function. I'd bet money it's a lifestyle indicator, more than an indicator of taking the right herbal supplements.
Interestingly, Zicam snuck in under a different loophole. Zicam was 10% Zinc Gluconate, which turns out to be pretty bloody high for intranasal use(check out what it did in animal tests). However, since Zinc Gluconate is one of the substances included in the "Homeopathic Pharmacopeia of the United States" (a collection of homeopathic "remedies" put together according to this procedure) and since 10% is equivalent to the "1D" homeopathic dilution, Zicam could be regulated and sold as a homeopathic drug rather than a conventional drug.
Unlike "dietary supplements", homeopathic remedies are recognized as drugs under the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act(in Section 201(g). However, unlike ordinary drugs, they are subject only to production and labeling standards, not safety or efficacy tests, and are almost always nonprescription. Normally, this isn't a big deal, because most homeopathic drugs are so diluted that the contain(on average) 0 molecules of the active ingredient, and are prepared using harmless dilutants. Zicam was unusual in that, while it arguably fell under the definition of "homeopathic", and was sold as such, it was well within the range for biological activity.
For example, kava is a fairly strong anxiolytic, and doesn't have the addiction profile of benzodiazepines. It's commonly used as the recreational drug of choice by Polynesians, so clearly it has pronounced psychoactive effects. I've played around with it quite a lot and find it to be pleasant, albeit mild.
5-HTP, which is the extract of the Griffonia simplicifolia plant, also invariably boosts serotonin (5-HT) levels in the brain. Whether or not it actually functions as an antidepressant is debated; I found some success using it for anxiety and depression, but that its effects wore off after a few weeks and the dosage needed to be boosted. (I take this, though, as a testament to the fact that depression != low serotonin, which I think is a complete fallacy.)
Not everything is homeopathic / naturopathic bullshit. Some plants, believe it or not, actually do have medicinal value. What about aloe for skin conditions?
(caveat - I work in medical genetics and sit in seminars and discuss papers on what actually works)
From my viewpoint, the things that really work are:
1. low-dose aspirin, provided you aren't allergic. Reducing the inflammation response improves a lot of things, and it's one of the few things we see helping in ALL our studies.
2. caffeine - yup. mind you, there are side effects, but tea and coffee are good. no, the sugar and stevia rushes don't really help you long-term, no matter what advertisers tell you. if you must use sugar, use cane sugar, the less processed the better.
3. exercise - mild to moderate, gardening counts - this always helps, but excessive exercise is way less effective. forget the perfect abs commercials, just get 15-30 minutes of mild to moderate exercise - of any type - about three times a week.
Now I'm sure by posting this I'll get lots of people arguing for their favorite drug or supplement or placebo (up to 2/3 of all prescriptions in Canada for example), but you're basically wasting your money and it's not helping you.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
Every time one of these fad supplements come out with these claims, I would see half the Alzheimers patients on my med pass get them. This sucks for a few reasons.
Firstly, there's never any real double blind studies when these things hit the med cart. Family are just hoping upon hope that the claims will work, and their family will be better. These companies prey upon that hope.
Secondly, it means I, as the nurse, have to find a way to shovel an obviously pointless (and usually HUGE) pill into a dementia patient. Often times these patients are confused and don't want to take a pile of legitimate medications, such as psych meds, heart meds, diabetic meds, and adding another big foul tasting pill on top of that starts pushing it.
Lastly, there are side effects, even if it's just an upset stomach. Piling on a bunch of useless supplements just increases the chances that there are going to be issues.
I cringe when each new wave comes around. I've seen it with glucosamine, ginko biloba, fish oil, and vitamin D. I have nothing against things that will help, but so much of it is just marketing.
Herbal suppliments, like the herbal viagra, are not subject to FDA rules. Some senator with a herbal suppliment bias was rewarded with this bit of law. Don't expect the government to protect you when they can reward one of their own with a law like this. Science doesn't matter in cases like this.
Who would win this election: Andrew Weiner vs Andrew Weiner's weiner.
Besides, if the ginkgo industry's scared it won't be seen as a feel-good product, they can just say it lowers cholesterol or something.
You can hold down the "B" button for continuous firing.
More study is needed, and presenting a study which focuses exclusively on the elderly as saying "gingko doesn't work for anybody" is just as intellectually dishonest as "gingko seems to work for me, so it must be great for everybody!"
Yes, if I was doing what you say it would be dishonest, but this isn't the only study showing that the supposed benefits Ginko are hogwash. The only ones showing otherwise are funded by Ginko marketing firms.
I wonder if a study which traced the use of gingko over a longer period of time and perhaps, as other posters have noted, in more concentrated doses might find a different result. If the claim is that the compounds in the plant mitigate cognitive decline, shouldn't the participants in the study start taking the plant before they are 72? What is the effect if any when a person regularly consumes gingko from a young age?
Ginkgo Doesn't Improve Memory Or Cognitive Skills
"Ginkgo biloba has failed -- again -- to live up to its reputation for boosting memory and brain function. Just over a year after a study showed that the herb doesn't prevent dementia and Alzheimer's disease,
(Emphasis mine.)
In other news: ... ... ...
- Cars have failed — again — to live up to their reputation for quickly getting you somewhere. Just over a year after a study showed that the machine can”t fly or survive outer space,
- Caffeine has failed — again — to live up to its reputation for boosting memory and brain function. Just over a year after a study showed that the substance doesn't prevent dementia, Alzheimer's disease,
-
(I'm not commenting on the rest of TFS. Just those two sentences.)
Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
Mmm... Easier to understand english. I like how it mentions the blood thinning and known effects of ginkgo. I still think that the study's specificness needs to be taken into account for the effectiveness and the next test adjusted around that. To me, it's the same as saying an anti-wrinkle cream had "no discernible effect" on a one year old baby, thus was useless. Maybe try it on a different group? Again, that particular cream might be useless on 80 year olds as well, but at least then it takes age and it's characteristics into consideration.
:)
Still, at least they're trying. I hate it when people blindly believe or dismiss herbal remedies. Some work, some don't. Find out why
"Common sense will be the death of us all"
as an addition to the parent, LSD is administered in micro-gram doses and its cognitive effects are astronomical.
Eat sleep die
As somebody else above has said, plant extracts are not a concentrated source of anything. Which means you're probably better off comparing the effects of 120mg of freshly squeezed orange juice on scurvy than 100mg of vitamin C.
No doubt, you are correct. Very small dosages of certain vitamins and minerals can affect the body greatly. But very small dosages of naturally-occurring, unpurified, untreated, otherwise minimally processed things probably don't.
"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
"Our bear makes other people more beautiful to you"
I'm having a hard time figuring out if you actually intended to say, "Our beer makes other people more beautiful to you" or, "Our bear makes other people more beautiful than you."
"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
Umm, two 120 mg pills is 240 mg per day. You shouldn't assume that they eat only half of each pill.
Anyway, the dosage is within the values that the supplient makers define for usage on the labels. Should the study have ignored what the people selling it say is the correct dosage?
Lets see, you think 4kg is the correct amount for a daily dosage, which means that they need to take (4kg / 120mg) = 33,333 pills a day. Somehow I don't think you'll see that dosage rate on the bottles. If your bottle held 100 pills, you'd be using 333 bottles a day. Even if there were 1000 pills per bottle, that would still be 33 bottles a day. Still a lot more than I'd want to try to swallow.
That's what you get from the "suppliment" supporters. If it doesn't work, it's not the suppliments fault, it's those 3000 people in the study who all did it wrong. Not a single one used it right.
Who would win this election: Andrew Weiner vs Andrew Weiner's weiner.
I always though you are supposed to EAT few hundreds gram of fresh ginkgo leaves like a salad. Perhaps 100g and 0.1g make a difference.
Sorry I just have to respond to this.
First the headline has nothing to do with the story.
The story is about dementia and Alzheimer's disease and not Ginkgo Doesn't Improve Memory Or Cognitive Skills.
Also the science of this study is just really bad and ignores what science has been done on Ginkgo Biloba’s affect on the body.
So what do we know about its effects?
It increases blood flow in small blood vessels, and the extremities, and in conjunction with other herbs has been used to help reduce blood pressure. (For centuries)
It has the curious effect of countering the negative effects of too much caffeine.
It also helps with blood flow to the brain, and can be used to help with mild cases of ADD. (Not HDAD)
I myself take it for my mild ADD and it does help me to focus.
Since Dementia and Alzheimer’s are cellular degeneration diseases and not related to blood flow in the brain I am not surprised it was not found to be helpful.
This is an obvious case of researchers not doing their home work before requesting funding for their study.
It never fails to amazes me what studies get funding, while other studies doing real science get left behind.
Big surprise aspirin is also not helpful in the treatment of these diseases either.
But aspirin and ginkgo do share the same affect of helping with blood flow in the body.
So let me quickly address the headline.
Does Ginko’s affect on the body effect memory or cognitive skills.
Most likely no, unless you are adding large doses of caffeine on sleep deprived subjects.
Or you are trying to counter poor blood flow in the brain.
And most likely it is already used in pharmaceutical company’s compounds.
Pharmaceutical company’s have DOD class security surrounding their products, manufacturing, and IP.
TeTalon
You are either a part of the problem, or a part of the solution, which are you.
As it doesn't seem to be sinking in, *you cannot generalize* when it comes to medical effects of various materials. You are completely wrong that "120mg of orange juice is comparable to 100mg of vitamin c" as it takes 200g of orange fruit to carry 100mg of vitamin c. Just because something is available from unrefined plant material does NOT mean it is trivial in substance. Furthermore, the term "plant extract" is completely undefined when it comes to modern medicine, so trying to base an argument on it is pretty hollow. Lastly, any statement on medical effectiveness that uses the term "probably" can go right back in your mouth. It's useless.
When I was in 8th grade (late 90's) I took ginko in the weeks leading up to the county math contest. I ended up getting first place in the individual competition for 8th graders. I was never sure if the ginko helped or if I was just talented, but its nice to know it probably wasn't the ginko (not like i expected any difference to be huge, but still!).
Of course... it was Santa Cruz county... Yes, that Santa Cruz.
And the sad thing is that after doing all that, then going through high school and college and completing the engineering level math up to differential equations (which i got an A in), I can't remember any of it anymore. At least, not calculus. I can't even remember how to do derivatives!
-Taylor
Worldwide Military budgets: $2100 billion. Worldwide Space Exploration budgets: $38 billion. Really, world? Really?
By a freak mischance, the study was done on retired CIA workers who could neither confirm nor deny that they remembered anything.
Squirrel!
I've taken similar herbals expecting the same or better results and not realized any.
I take a 90mg gelcap and the effect lasts for about 3 hours every time.
It's pretty predictable to be placebo.
Again, from what I've learned it's a circulation issue. Ginkgo increases circulation to the brain and other extremities and that helps your cognitive function. I don't have any issues with my extremities so I can't comment about that.
My wife tried some (she is typically very focused already) and she said it had no effect. So I'd agree that it doesn't work for everyone but does for some.
-m
http://www.invisik.com
Never mind then that Vitamin C (arguably an 'unrefined plant material')
Ahem.
Vitamin C is a concentrated material, not a raw material. You still have to drink almost a cup of lemon juice to get 100mg of Vitamin C. (112.24mg to the cup, precisely.)
What do you mean hopefully herbal Viagra is next? Where have you been for the entire history of human kind. Oysters, bananas, rhino horn, chocolate, dragon bones, authentic mummy flesh, figs, cow's testicles, elk antlers, acai berries...I'm tired of typing, but the point is I can name a dozen natural alternatives to Viagra off the top of my head that have caused unsolicited advertisement since forever. Currently, I already receive the spam you're hoping for from at least the acai peddlers.
I am not sure what exactly you are saying.
That a herb has an inconsistent ratio of itself?
Like an apple having more apple or less apple and more of something else instead?
If it is a case of a single herb or a single part of the herb (flower, stem, root, leaf, fruit) you measure the weight.
You know... that same measure we use to measure chemical ingredients used in medicine.
Except you use grams instead of milligrams as the concentration of chemicals is far lower than in the artificial sources.
So it is quite safe to have several cups of coffee, but it would probably be lethal to have a single cup of caffeine.
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
The pharma industry scan through millions of compounds found in "natural" remedies looking for active compounds.
Aspirin - willow bark
Penicillin - bread mould
Quinine - cinchona bark
Morphine/Codeine - poppy seeds
Digoxin - foxglove
Reserpine - indian snakeroot
Ephedrine - mormon-tea
etc etc.
Deleted
I've taken similar herbals expecting the same or better results and not realized any.
I take a 90mg gelcap and the effect lasts for about 3 hours every time.
It's pretty predictable to be placebo.
This does nothing to dispute the obvious placebo effect. In fact it does nothing but reinforce it. If you start telling patients who you are giving placebo pills that they are getting something other than what they expect the placebo effect is ruined. This is why things are done in blind manner (double-blind is best because then the people dispensing the medication don't know which is which) in drug studies. The proper way to eliminate the placebo effect is for you to not know you aren't still taking ginko pills but are given something else.
Same with Icariin, which has apparently been scientifically demonstrated to be a PDE5 inhibitor.
...why I can't find my damn Ginkgo bottle...
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
"But all that blood flow has another effect as well...makes me wonder what stuff like Viagra and Cialis are actually like, given the effects of this stuff."
The Chinese remedy, Sum Yung Tang, has been found to be highly effective.
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
This study gave half the group gingko, and the other half a placebo. It would have been more thorough to include a control group that did not take any supplement at all.
The study measured certain aspects of cognitive function. It seems reasonable to allow for the possibility that cognition itself --specifically, a belief (or misbelief) that one is taking a supplement or a placebo-- could measurably affect cognitive function.
After all, it could be that both gingko and placebos are both more effective than nothing at all; particularly since it appears that placebos themselves are somehow becoming more effective. http://science.slashdot.org/story/09/09/07/1526234/Placebos-Are-Getting-More-Effective
The line between food and medicine is not that sharp.
St. John's Wort tea - food or medicine?
Coffee - food or medicine?
(I can't remember the name of the beans that contain a lot of 5-hydroxytrytophan, a serotonin precursor, but they make me very drowsy) - Food or medicine?
Fish oil - food or medicine? (I have lowered my high triglycerides significantly by using omega-3 fish oil capsules.)
But I guess that's why you got a funny mod instead of insightful or informative.
Your sig is informative though! - a good disclaimer of sorts.
...the future crusty old bastards are already drinking the Kool-Aid.
door arrangement with the management of the pharm and food industries, and we are supposed to believe that this study is unbiased?
It reminds me of the FDA approval for Aspartame, when tests for carcinogenic properties was "improved" by removing the rats that had developed brain cancer from the test groups. This "solution" suggested by former Sec of Defense Rumsfield, and for which he received $6M in salary and bonuses. The only difference is that the Aspartame study "proved" NeutraSweet was "safe".
Running with Linux for over 20 years!
Comment removed based on user account deletion
... that I could never remember to take it.
Nevermore.
Yes, Chinese Viagra alternatives! Made with parts of soon-to-be-extinct animals, and contaminated with real pharmaceuticals of unknown type and quantity. Really tempting.
xkcd is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.
We return to our reporter at the scene where emergency crews are cleaning up the mess left by someone who took an add for a food or drink product literally.
What about those who took a subtract literally?
Perhaps the rules should change to require literal truth. "Our bear makes other people more beautiful to you"
Where may I purchase this Ursidae product?
Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
St Johns wort - food. coffee - food fish oil = food They are all sold as a food, rather than a medicine - regardless of potential health benefits of each. If they wanted to make claims of medicinal usage then they'd need to send the product through extensive testing for effectives and side effects, etc. It's simpler to make a vague allegation of some possible effect and watch the foolish snap them up.
All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain.
Gingko is food? You ever smelled a ginkgo tree fruit? It may not be medicine, but you won't see ginkgo-flavored ice cream any time soon. ....ok, maybe in Japan.
Closed: WONTFIX
Comment: works for me.
It was meant to be funny while using logic and information. (My TNG rerun binge has made me worry that I might develop Data's personality without his power.)
My sig is an essential disclaimer. I am dyslexic in a way that causes a great number of misspellings in everything I write.
I depend heavily on the spell check built into the various software I use (God bless the person who added spell check to Firefox).
Unfortunately, spell-check is no match for a real word that sounds just like the word I intended to type.
--= Isn't it surprising how badly I spell ?
What herbal remedies do you recommend?
My drug recommendations all come with the serious urging that you research deeply on your own. That includes my recommendations for plant-derived or synthetic, brand-name drugs. Do you think gobbling down Tagamet and aspirin, just because you can buy them off the drug store shelf, without an understanding of drug metabolization is a good idea?
For difficulty sleeping or resetting a sleep schedule, for antioxidant effect, plant-derived melatonin. As such a fundamental neurochemical, you'll want to be careful about your usage. A specific effect to be wary of is immunomodulation.
Kavalactones present in the Kava plant are anxiolytics — they have anti-anxiety effects. They work on GABA receptors, similarly to alcohol, but don't have the same stupefying effects. If using the raw plant, do not take leaves and stems, only the root, macerated in water, per the traditional use. As with all drugs, take in moderation.
For mental stimulation and performance, caffeine from green tea (or coffee). Also theobromine from cacao. Also cinnamon scent (go ahead, look it up). And again Kava. Flaxseed meal (alpha-linolenic acid, which converts to EPA and DHA — omega-3s), walnuts, etc.
For bronchodilation, theophylline from cacao.
For anti-emetic (nausea/vomiting, including motion sickness), ginger (active ingredient zingiberene). Perhaps marijuana.
For mood, theobromine from cacao, kavalactones from Kava, plant-derived melatonin, caffeine. Plant-derived 5-HTP (beware interactions with MAOIs and SSRIs). I'd suggest looking into St. John's Wort, but I haven't delved deeply into it myself except to note that it's a drug metabolization inhibitor, and so requires special care regarding interaction. The first thing to do with poor mood is not to begin applying drugs anyway, plant-based or synthetic.
For energy level, caffeine from green tea or elsewhere, theobromine (cacao), cocaine (coca).
For anti-inflammation, depending on severity, curcumin (turmeric), eugenol (cloves), and zingiberene (ginger), bromelain (pineapple), papain (papaya), alpha-linolenic acid (flaxseeds), cinnamon. Maybe
For digestion, ginger, pineapple, papaya.
Surely that's a big enough list that you can find something wrong in it. I know you're looking for chinks in armor.
Why do you believe that these remedies are effective?
Reading. Broad-spectrum data factoring (e.g., including absence of certain kinds of information) anchored mostly by published studies (with an appropriate eye towards credibility). You? (Seriously. How do you know about your own choices?)
How do these remedies compare to the drugs that target the same complaints in both cost and effectiveness?
Well, gee, which ones? How about the anti-inflammatories... NSAIDs have an issue with promoting GI irritation and stomach bleeding. If you've got ulcers already, IBD or Crohn's or Coeliac Disease, NSAIDs will be pretty hard on you. On the other hand, the degree of inflammation present in autoimmune disorders is probably not the right scenario for trying to address solely with eugenol/zingiberene/curcumin. But back on the gripping hand, adding these to your diet can only help.
Side-effects and come-down from SSRIs are pretty gnarly, especially in the suicide cases. Make sure not to miss your doses.
Green tea can be pretty expensive, I admit. But, whatever. Ginger, turmeric, cloves... not that expensive and serve dual purpose as freakin' spices. Kava's pretty pricey, I have to say, but I quite like it. If anyone knows a good source of quality root, please chime in. I expect whole root to be less expensive than capsule or tincture preparations.
What qualifies you to be making medicinal recommendations to others? Do you have relevant training?
Do you have the relevant training as a consumer
It's "Tipsy Bear" from the care bear family.
I remember him. No Heart didn't cause him much trouble, but No Liver could defeat him easily.
Did you really miss the joke there?
I am scientifically inaccurate.
.. for people whose minds haven't already deteriorated?
Why was the study limited to people 72 and older? I thought Ginko was supposed to prevent the deterioration of mental function. Not restore it to people who may have already lost it. Since the mind is supposed to begin losing some of its function beginning at much earlier ages (I've read that some function begins to be lost in the late 20s), why the heck wasn't the study including younger people?
CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
Vitamin B12 is needed only in microgram quantities and a deficiency may take years to have an effect. Small doses of meat will be adequate in almost all cases to prevent the problems caused by inadequate vitamin B12 consumption.
Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
What if the Ginkgo really works in a mysterious way which the current technology/analysis can't figure out, e.g. a very complex side effect and these scientists have actually breaks treatment of some clever patients who are wise to keep in "tested chemical drugs" but add Ginkgo to their treatment, consulting their doctor first?
As I see some real robbery scheme (overpriced natural pills) being in action globally, we can also argue about the mysterious ways of gigantic "real pill" companies. Why the heck I have to read "miracles" of Aspirin every day? Especially if I have a potentially bad stomach and Aspirin, in very unfortunate conditions can kill me in matter of hours? When will these "doctors" talk about it and debunk those billion dollar company backed claims?
What to do if you read Ginkgo doesn't work, Aspirin or some more advanced pill does miracles? Just keep ignoring it, it is your doctor's business, not you.
I can just tell these scientists that nobody died because of ginkgo tea. Can they claim the same for OTC pills? For example, what does unneeded amounts of Vitamin A does? What happens if you give "aspirin"just in case to a unlucky guy who lives alone, uses alcohol, sleeps alone and he takes it with empty stomach who just happens to have ulcer risk?
I have used ginkgo biloba and for me, it indeed does work. I don't notice it affecting me until I need to think (e.g., it doesn't make me jittery like caffeine can) but then it is like the skids of my mind are greased. I am 54 years old.
I appreciate that people doing medical research have a hard task, and finding answers to questions such as this can be interesting work, but in a subtle way, once "the answer" is found and practitioners incorporate the findings into their practices, many patients can be harmed. Here's why, and I'll use the ginkbo biloba study cited. A large (ideally) population is studied for a single variable, in this case, susceptibility to ginkgo biloba with respect to cognitive function. The "result" is determined (in this case, it doesn't do anything _on average_) and from that point forward every person is considered average in that one variable. In other words, some people in the study might have been helped by the substance in question while others were not helped or were harmed. But when you go to your doctor, he/she doesn't test you to see which group you fall into: you are automatically assumed to be "average."
This is possibly the single biggest flaw in the practice of medicine today. In the future, one would hope that more personalized medicine will be practiced as knowledge increases and as individualized (e.g., DNA) testing are available. But it is also possible that a tragic delay will be inserted into the system as governments establish more and more panels to determine the averages and to penalize physicians for practicing outside of the government-mandated guidelines which are set for that average. This is currently being planned in the United States.
Actually St. John's Wort is not sold as a food, and while the other two are, they do have effects just like medicines do, e.g raising blood pressure, thinning the blood, etc. It could in some cases be dangerous to treat a substance (even some things you would call a food) like it can't hurt you simply because it isn't regulated by the FDA.
...the future crusty old bastards are already drinking the Kool-Aid.
but you are only guessing at how much active ingredient that much weight of that particular batch will have.
You are doing the same with every pill and every chemical ingredient as well. Only difference is the level of purity and the scale at which you measure.
So you make errors at the scale of 0.01 milligram, but you are using an ingredient potent enough that a single milligram might be a HUGE difference.
Again... couple of grams of coffee per cup more won't change much, but add a couple of milligrams of caffeine more and the mixture will be a LOT more potent.
Plants have a smaller concentration to begin with, so you are just fine with much higher measuring error.
Quality_of_ingredients- or their quantity-wise. Tea spoons are just as usable as a measuring equipment as a micro-scale.
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
Three words: Internet Bought Viagra.
Same thing there. Actually.. no. It is FAR worse.
You can visually check, smell, taste, feel and compare the ingredients of a herbal tea. Plants are quite well documented and easily recognizable.
You need a lab and a chemistry degree or two to compare two white pills. All of the quality assurance ends with the packaging.
You are relying on trust far more with chemicals then with plants.
Using either without reading the label first and preferably informing yourself about the medicine in case is not a wise thing to do.
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
Why yes! I apparently am not up to date with all the slang words for genitals.
xkcd is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.
Although in my defense, when the first hit on Google for the search is urban dictionary rather than a porn site, it must be a pretty uncommon term.
xkcd is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.
I've had mixed success with it as far as cognitive functioning goes. Taken alone, I've noticed a little improvement but nothing drastic. Depending on the brand I would actually get a big of an allergic reaction from it! Im trying a new formula called Memory Essentials. It contains: Alpha-Glycerylphosphorycholine (alpha-GPC) (from soy) - 250 mg Vitamin B6 (as pyridoxine HCI) - 76 mg Folic Acid - 100 mcg Vitamin B12 (as cyanocobalamin, methycobalamin) - 50 mcg Pantothenic Acid (as calcium panthothenate) - 100 mg Phosphatidylserine Complex (from soy) - 100 mg Green Tea Extract (leaf) - 100 mg Blueberry Powder - 50 mg Ginkgo Biloba Extract - 100 mg Giving it a try this month. It;s making a difference no doubt but not sure how big. I'll go without it next month and compare. How ever one supplement that DEFINITLY makes a difference for me is L-Tyrosine as it's a precursor to L-Dopa aka dopamine. My main problem area has always been focus over memory retention. Used to take ritalin as a kid, that shit made me into a zombie!
Orrin Hatch did something to *increase* freedom? Unbelievable!
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
Even a clock running backwards as fast as it can, and trying to push society with it, is right on occasion...
It's sold as a food here in Aus. Even water can kill you when you drink too much - but I don't see anyone trying to get that treated as a medicine.
All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain.
http://xocolatl.reedyoung.net/
"I can't imagine how things could get any worse!" (some guy) "That could just be failure of imaginatioÂn on your p