Slashdot Mirror


Genre Wars — the Downside of the RPG Takeover

Phaethon360 writes "From Bioshock and Modern Warfare 2 to even Team Fortress 2, RPG elements are creeping into game genres that we never imagined they would. This change for the most part has managed to subtly improve upon genres that needed new life, but there's a cost that hasn't been tallied by the majority of game developers. 'The simple act of removing mod tools, along with the much discussed dedicated server issue, has made [MW2] a bit of a joke among competitive players. Gone are the days of "promod," and the only option you have is to play it their way. If Infinity Ward are so insistent on improving the variety of our experiences, they don’t have to do it at the expense of the experience that many of us already love. It really is that simple. If they don’t want to provide a good "back to basics experience," they could at least continue to provide the tools that allow us to do that for ourselves.'"

248 comments

  1. WTF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I read the summary, it did not make sense. So, I RTFA, it still does not make sense. Is anything being said here at all??

    1. Re:WTF? by dreamchaser · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's just one long rambling whine without a lot of substance. The author is crying because they aren't making games exactly the way he wants them now.

    2. Re:WTF? by Nursie · · Score: 1

      The only thing I got from it was "no mod tools == bad". Other than that, no.

    3. Re:WTF? by fake_name · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Someone blogged about some things he doesn't like and made the front page of slashdot.

      Basically, more games have character progression in them where you improve your character and/or equipment while playing and he thinks this is a bad idea for competitive multiplayer games.

    4. Re:WTF? by Kjella · · Score: 1

      Why? I mean you have some competitions like 100m dash where you only measure one thing, but take a sport like soccer. You want 11 different people with different proficiency at dribbling, passing, scoring, tackling, interception and goalkeeping based on speed, strength and skill. Of course you won't find any poorly trained people, nor will you find teams that are all attack or all defense, but they don't end up as opposite blueprints in one min-maxed combination either. The nerfing and new gear is quite like what happens as some people gain skills, some age and lose skills, some retire, some rookies come in and you have to replan to get the most out of your team. Or for that matter, compare it to a troop of marines if you will. It's actually way more "real life" than playing a game that never changes.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    5. Re:WTF? by MrNaz · · Score: 5, Interesting

      BS.
      The author is bemoaning the fact that games currently suck. The fundamental problem is that they are serving the largest market, and as the market has become more mainstream, the average IQ of the average player has gone down. Computer games used to be the preserve of geeks, or other intellectual types willing to do something as non-jocky as play on a computer. Now, every dolt with a dim sense of consciousness is playing Halo, and their dollars are voting smart gamers out of the picture.

      Games like XCom, Syndicate and System Shock will not be made any more, because there's too much money to be made serving Mr. Averagely Average.

      Today, a game like System Shock would fail because I doubt even 20% of the current market would have the cerebrum to get through the first 2 levels, let alone have a chance of finishing it.

      Furthermore, as game houses become more and more commercial in their decision making, risk taking and breaking the mold becomes less attractive. Why risk development funds on a mold breaking game when you can get instant cash by cranking out another FPS based on the current generation 3D engine?

      Consoles are dumbing games down even more, with their painfully limited means of interacting. I liked it better in the old days when game developers had to take risks in order to keep their market interested. Being a "Doom clone" back then was a stigma. Nowadays, being just another FPS is quite honorable if you have bump sketching unobtanium enabled shading 3 days before the next game with it comes out.

      Yes, I'm being an elitist snob. Yes I know you're about to mod me down. No I don't care, as long as you get off my lawn while I play 15 year old games in dosbox.

      --
      I hate printers.
    6. Re:WTF? by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      Players already have different abilities (for example I'm no good with sniper rifles but my grenades claim many victims), no need to throw some arbitrary restrictions on there by preventing players from using the same tools.

      Besides, this isn't levelling into specific directions, this is merely unlocking new options. There's no specialization happening because a high level player has all the gear to fit any role he wants while a low level player cannot specialize on certain tasks because he's missing the tools.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    7. Re:WTF? by PopeRatzo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Games like XCom, Syndicate and System Shock will not be made any more

      Maybe I misremember System Shock. I know I remember playing it a lot and enjoying it very much.

      But how different are games like Mass Effect? Have you played Eve Online? To the people who play Eve Online regularly, System Shock might as well be Bejeweled. There's quite a bit more "cerebrum" required in that game, I'd wager.

      It sounds like you haven't played a game since 1996. That's OK. You're just rusty and cranky. Don't be afraid to get back on the bike, but be ready to be humbled by the "cerebrum" of a 15 year old CEO of an Eve corp who teaches you a thing or two..

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    8. Re:WTF? by Goaway · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Actually, the author said none of those things. He made vague whines about games, and you just substituted in everything you personally hate about games.

    9. Re:WTF? by AlmondMan · · Score: 1

      Could this be why EVE Online is a complete niche game with a very limited audience compared to your regular trash console FPS title with a lifespan of 4 weeks?

    10. Re:WTF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Same anonymous coward you replied to here. Thanks for your clarification.

      So, nowadays RPG == character progression. I was asuming that RPG was about role playing, but I must be getting old.

    11. Re:WTF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes.

      --Jirai Laitanen, Guristas co CEO

    12. Re:WTF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, what you're saying is: In the end, it doesn't even matter.
      How horrible.

    13. Re:WTF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yea, but MrNaz had some good points, where the first post was a nonsensical rant. It's kind of like Forum with Michael Krasney, where guests call in with incoherent tirades, and he pulls gold out of the garbage.

    14. Re:WTF? by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      Which isn't exactly a shallow argument. It basically takes games from being a platform for fun and tries to turn them into a short-lived money maker. Same price as they were before, but severely curtailed replay value so you have to pay for the next version instead of just making a mod.

    15. Re:WTF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well that was an useless, substance-free reply.

      The audience for PC games has broadened substantially since the early 90s. And of course money is a driving force in determining which games gets made. That's not really a point to be argued. There are a huge number of games like X-COM or TIE Fighter which are extremely highly regarded by just about everyone who has ever played them, yet there's been nothing like them made since. The blame probably can be pinned on the games industry as it has developed since then, into something very much akin to Hollywood without the sex and drugs.

    16. Re:WTF? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      No he's whining that it's not possible to teak the games that are not made exactly the way he wants them until they are the games that he wants. You can't take a game that is close to what you want, mod it so it is, and then run a dedicated server with your version to play against other people. Basically, he's saying exactly the same thing that some guy called Richard said about printer drivers in the early '80s.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    17. Re:WTF? by uncledrax · · Score: 2, Insightful

      BS.
      The author is bemoaning the fact that games currently suck.

      I call BS on your BS.

      Maybe the Author needs to stop following the mainstream games market and buying whatever EA shovels them year after year.. there are games that don't suck, but most are being put out by smaller companies that don't release for 4 platforms, have for-pay DLC, and aren't capable of having a 2-minute advert during the superbowl.

      Also, some of the best gameplay I've had on games are not the game as intended.. hell the only reason I bought some games were for mods that got released for them.. I think I've probably clocked under 10 hours of UT2004 proper.. but likely hundreds of hours on various mods for game.

      I guess now I'm dont my pointless rant on the articles pointless rant.

      --
      ----- The internet has given everyone the ability to have their voice heard equally as loud.. even if they shouldn't be
    18. Re:WTF? by rhsanborn · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Which is exactly what this argument is about. Gamers who were a niche market are used to playing the kind of games that were made for their niche. Other people came into the arena and started playing games, and developers started making games for this much larger audience. If you are a niche gamer who doesn't like playing average person games, then don't. EVE is a niche game still made for the non-WoW crowd. I'm sure there are others, go play those.

      The one thing the niche gamer cannot expect is that people are going to spend mainstream development money on his niche. He may have to look at some of the smaller dev houses and play those games.

    19. Re:WTF? by Raven42rac · · Score: 1

      Makes you wish for a -1 "mary sue"

      --
      I hate sigs.
    20. Re:WTF? by jgtg32a · · Score: 1

      Most likely his point of SS is because of its "sequel" Bioshock was dumbed down

      Mass Effect is so dumbed down its not even funny, compare it to any Infinity Engine game
       
      No arguments about Eve, I tried it the learning curve was a vertical wall. But is the game itself really that cerebral, or the fact that the game was designed to allow politics

    21. Re:WTF? by dangitman · · Score: 0, Troll

      Computer games used to be the preserve of geeks, or other intellectual types willing to do something as non-jocky as play on a computer.

      Get the fuck out of here. Computer games have never been particularly intellectual. Was Pac Man intellectual? How about Rambo? The Sims? Street Fighter?

      Intellectually stimulating computer games are the exception, not the rule. The whole "games" market has never been ruled by the intellectual or the geeky. The nerds and geeks were too busy doing other things with computers than to play games, while the "entertainment" companies ruled the games market.

      --
      ... and then they built the supercollider.
    22. Re:WTF? by jidar · · Score: 1

      "games currently suck".

      I don't agree with MW2 not having dedicated servers, in fact I think it stinks, but that statement is just flat wrong.

      There are games made for every taste in every style imaginable from huge rpgs backed by $20million dollar budgets down to simple indie games made by some guy with some spare time and a great idea. We not only get these games on PCs, we get them on consoles, we get them on our mobile devices, we have new ways to control things, we can integrate in facebook, the list goes on. Meanwhile you cannot name me one genre that someone isn't making a game in right now. Okay so the $20million dollar games are no longer point and click adventure games like Myst, well big deal, if that's what you want you can find it. Platformers, arcade shooters, rpgs, first person shooters, strategy all being made at all levels of development and you can probably multiplayer most of them too.

      So mr. jaded Internet forum guy, It's my opinion that if you can't be happy with the way gaming is right now, then you will never be happy with it in the future and never would have been happy with it in the past. Maybe the problem is you.

      --
      Sigs are awesome huh?
    23. Re:WTF? by jidar · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Bioshock is System Shock done better. I say that and I loved System Shock.

      --
      Sigs are awesome huh?
    24. Re:WTF? by Sobrique · · Score: 1

      Thing is, even a 'niche' game like EVE, I can see the temptation of 'all that money'. Catering to the less 'hardcore' players. The ones that want raid loot, and epic mounts, and respecs and ... whatnot.
      Catering to those players brings in a lot of revenue, and maybe only a slight dilution of the 'founding principles' of the game. But that can gradually drift onwards, as the game developers start to realise that the more mainstream they make their game, the more people they attract - you lose the 'niche', and you lose the 'niche' players, but they were a minority towards the end, so the company goes on.
      Same problem really. I'm only glad that CCP is a privately owned company, with a 'vision' of what they want the game and the company to be like. I do catch myself twitching when I see things that I see as signs of 'dilution' though.

    25. Re:WTF? by jythie · · Score: 1

      *shrug* If you think there is enough of a remaining market for such games, that a large enough niche group is not being served, then start a business and serve them. Or better yet, patronize the companies that are doing so! There are plenty of small companies still putting out very cerebral games and their business model allows them to survive the small percentage of people who will buy their titles.

      Now, this does mean you tend to sacrifice graphics, which part of the problem is many self proclaimed 'cerebral' players are not willing to do.

    26. Re:WTF? by Akira+Kogami · · Score: 1

      The difference is that the soccer players are getting better by improving their own skills, not getting arbitrary bonuses for every certain number of games they win. The player does get better in a multiplayer game without progression, just naturally. RPG elements unnaturally exaggerrate the difference in the ability to win between new players and veterans.

    27. Re:WTF? by filthpickle · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It's our own fault. We thought we could steal and steal and steal and it wouldn't matter. Now we know that it did matter.

      My apologies if you didn't steal as much as I did. (an amusing aside, I am good at the job I currently have because of what I learned about computers whilst stealing)

    28. Re:WTF? by Vohar · · Score: 1

      I totally agree. The rant boils down to the old, "X is popular now, so now it sucks. I liked X before it was cool, so that makes me better than everyone else."

      He even threw in "REAL don't even like because it sucks." His opinion differs, so we're supposed to think he's smarter than everyone else right? Right?

    29. Re:WTF? by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      Someone's going to have to explain to me how the statement 'no games like those two have been made since' makes any sense.

      Most multiple character RPGs, like the D&D ones such as Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Dragon Age, etc, can be operated in 'turn mode' in combat, where you can have the game automatically pause, and direct the exact movement and combat of each person.

      For that matter, X-Com was nowhere near the first one. Turn-based tactical games were some of the first computer combat game, and they're still being made...I point to 'Gunrox'.

      And I have no idea why you think TIE fighter is some innovative game genre-wise. It's a very very good game, but it is, at heart, a dogfighting (in space) game. There were some before, and there were plenty after. None really as good, but saying 'They don't make dogfighting games like the best one ever made' is just inane...if anything, TIE Fighter has been over-copied.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    30. Re:WTF? by Divide+By+Zero · · Score: 1
      +1, Accurate, Insightful, Etc. Sorry, I haven't been doing enough metamod, or you'd actually GET that karma point.

      I =loved= System Shock, but had to bail on SS2 cuz apparently between SS1 and SS2, I became a big wuss who can't handle scary games. I wanted to be able to play Bioshock, but the demo creeped me out enough and I had to bail on that one too. But the mechanics, the environment, the suspensy-shooter peppered with backstory idea... it's all straight out of Looking Glass Games' bag of tricks.

      It also moved over three million copies (I know cuz I read it on wikipedia and that's always accurate) and was a critical darling. Game of the Year awards, metacritic around 95%, perfect scores out the wazoo... it was a good game by all accounts. Sequel, etc.

      There are good games being made, and just because the gaming hobby, once sole domain of the geeks, has been invaded by teenage boys and normal people (note the distinction between the three groups) doesn't mean that the whole industry is worthless. They're not all as impossible to play as Su-27 (holy god, at least give me the OPTION for the gauges to be in English!) and that may offend your sensibilities, but that doesn't mean that all games since 2000 or on consoles are totally without merit.

      tl;dr - Bioshock is the spiritual successor to System Shock, and it did a ton of biz. Elitist Snob is Elitist, and is missing good games.

      --
      Dare to Hope. Prepare to be Disappointed.
    31. Re:WTF? by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      That's just an argument to randomize stuff somewhat, not against character development. I though Oblivion's model was cool, where you develop traits you use, but that was crippled by an idiotic system of leveling.

      And almost every game has some sort of 'You have progressed, now you can do more'. As you go along, you get more abilities. In SimCity, it's by getting more money, in Civ 4 it's with research. It's a basic attribute of computer games.

      The sole exception I can think of would be adventure games, where you're often just dumped into new environments with the same skills as before. Every other game genre I can think of, you get more 'powerful' as you go along.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    32. Re:WTF? by IshmaelDS · · Score: 1

      It's a little more cerebral than your average RPG but alot of it is the politics, and learning where danger zones are, etc.

      --
      letting an idiot know they are an idiot is not a game... it's a responsibility. - by Kristopeit, M. D. (1892582)
    33. Re:WTF? by jbezorg · · Score: 1

      There is good news. CCP is seeing steady growth.
      http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart2.html

      But it's hard to not be tempted by the lime green line.
      http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart1.html

      Sadly, the industry has changed. It's evident in the fact that we are talking about game studios selling out to "the man" just like musicians selling out to record labels and producing pop pablum.

      --
      I've lost all my marbles except one & It's fun to test angular & centripetal acceleration in my skull
    34. Re:WTF? by BobMcD · · Score: 1

      From were I sit, it may not be shallow, but it is extremely obvious.

      MMO's, specifically WoW, have changed the games market forever. You will now see a short variety of scopes in gaming:

      1) Subscription content, e.g. pay-per-month
      2) Throw-away content, e.g. iPhone, WiiWare, etc titles
      3) Episodic content, e.g. Starcraft 2, and probably every FPS released from this time period onward

      FPS games that you can mod and run private servers with are contrary to '3' above. They want you to be tired of the title when the newest incarnation of it hits the shelves.

      Before we moan too loudly about the design, would we rather they use methods '1' or '2' for these titles? Because that's about all that any successful games company is going to consider in the current market.

      I personally feel confident in laying the blame on the MMO because they demonstrated that gamers will, indeed, pay regularly to continue their play experience. I assume it was believed that this would have been rejected by the market, but now that it is clear that this is not the case, expect to see more of it.

    35. Re:WTF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      TIE Fighter was not merely a fucking "dogfighting game". It was the story, the objectives, the bonuses, everything in a beautiful package that goes beyond just waggling around a joystick. If you think there's been something as good or better made since, name it. If you can't, shut the fuck up.

    36. Re:WTF? by Vohar · · Score: 1

      Whoops, put phrases in brackets there and formatting took them out entirely. Oh well, it's still not the most mangled post I've seen here today...

    37. Re:WTF? by geekoid · · Score: 1

      "The author is bemoaning the fact that games currently suck. "

      Ah, the 'it's was better in those days' fallacy.

      Here is some shocling news:

      Games have ALWAYS sucked. Or rather, many of them. We just remember the gems.
      There are a lot more good games now then there ever were. That's because there are more games.

      If you have gotten to a point where all games seem to suck, then get a new hobby. seriously, your just wasting your life doing something you don't enjoy for no real reason other then habit.

      "Yes, I'm being an elitist snob."

      No, you are being stupid. There is a difference.

      " I doubt even 20% of the current market would have the cerebrum to get through the first 2 levels,"
      It's not that hard. I mean, if it was difficult for you that just confirms my opinion in my reply to your comment on being an elitist.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    38. Re:WTF? by sabt-pestnu · · Score: 1

      Today, a game like System Shock would fail because I doubt even 20% of the current market would have the cerebrum to get through the first 2 levels, let alone have a chance of finishing it.

      Man, that's some powerful skepticism!

    39. Re:WTF? by Creepy · · Score: 1

      All games have a set of rules and mechanics, and that alone requires some thinking.

      The material may not be particularly engaging, but all the games you mention involve pattern recognition and response. Studies have shown Tetris is mentally stimulating, but the same recognition/response in tetris could be applied to Pac Man (to a lesser extent) or, say, a Rubik's Cube. Memorization of the patterns and what response to use is essential to being good at the game.

      In shooters and RTS's, players memorize maps and strategies - a player with good knowledge of maps and a good strategy will almost always defeat a player with poor knowledge of one or the other or both.

      RPGs themselves have strategies and stories and often minigames, but incidentally I've found many of these are repetitive and not terribly creative. I've said before that the next time I see Tower of Hanoi in an RPG, I throw the game away - I'm sticking to that. My biggest gripe about RPGs is they tend to either be heavily on rails (Bioware, I'm wagging my finger at you - having to run around a pile of rubble I can see over is silly, and having to complete the map to get there is even sillier - the preset, nearly constant ambushes are my second biggest grudge) or have non-engaging characters and plot (Bethesda, I'm wagging my finger at you). The last RPG I thoroughly enjoyed the plot, characters and environment for was Gothic - plodding through the terrible combat was the hardest part. Its too bad they really didn't develop it from there - Gothic 2, 3, and the spiritual successor Risen all seem rather blah to me and I didn't finish any of them (heck, I didn't even finish the Demo of Risen, and didn't make it far in G3 before the constant 10 on 1 wolf pack battles got me frustrated with it).

    40. Re:WTF? by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      Ah give up, it's just the Internet version of "things were better back in my day! Get off my lawn!" A combination of crippling nostalgia, surliness, and not having played any actual modern video games.

      You see this a lot on Slashdot for some reason; I like to call it "the games forum for people who haven't played games in a decade".)

      You'll notice that people who still frequently play videos never lay those vague "games are less smart"-type of gripes, because they're aware of how false they are. It would be a really hard case to make that, for example, Bioshock is "less smart" than System Shock 2. (Well, to make rationally.)

    41. Re:WTF? by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      "Elitist snob" is not a term I associate with "hard-core gamer". Nice post, otherwise.

    42. Re:WTF? by Fallingcow · · Score: 2, Funny

      Except it's not at all scary. And the story's not as good. And the gameplay is weak for a modern game.

      Aside from that, though, you're right.

    43. Re:WTF? by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      I didn't say there was anything better made since, you loon. I actually called it 'the best dogfighting game ever made', although I probably should amend that with the word 'space'.

      People do not actually read on this site.

      I was responding to the concept 'there's been nothing like [it] made since.', in the context of 'determining which games gets made'. I.e., not a discussion of quality, but a discussion of type of games made.

      Which is just flatly stupid. There's been nothing as good as it made since, but there were plenty of things like it.

      The person I was responding to, and I have no idea if that's you, was acting like the entire damn genre of it, and X-COM, just disappeared after those games. When, in reality, probably more games were made in an attempt to replicate those games than were actually needed. (Especially X-COM, which managed to hit a graphical sweet spot that was almost instantly overtaken by FPSs, yet people continued to try to replicate it.)

      Hell, X-Wing, and the followup TIE Fighter, were essentially just a clone of the Wing Commander series, which ran though the entire decade. TIE Fighter just managed to be better than any of them.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    44. Re:WTF? by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      I don't see the RPG elements creeping into other games so much as I see other game elements creeping into RPGs. There haven't been good RPGs in a long time, all we have now really are Action/RPGs which is really a separate genre.

      The big problem with current games is that the're overproduced. They're like Hollywood Blockbusters. Huge amounts of money get shoved into them for the "special effects", everyone plays it safe to make sure-fire hits, marketing goes into overdrive to get large opening week sales, and then the audience moves onto something else next week and they fade away. If a success shows up occasionally, expect a glut of sequels or lookalikes.

      I think the game makers (ie, the execs) don't really know what is a good game. They'll look at System Shock and reel on horror about how awful the graphics are; or they see Fallout and can't look past the bugs; or the see Planescape: Torment and proclaim that it has too much text to read for the target demographics. At least in the movies, the producers and directors know what good movies are even if they're not making them; they won't point to a Hitchcock movie and say "not enough blood" or "too bad it wasn't in color".

    45. Re:WTF? by MoriaOrc · · Score: 1

      I can see an argument that a well done system of unlocks or other RPG elements in these kind of situations can actually help a new player familiarize themselves with some the core concepts before branching out into whatever specializations they may want to make down the road. This allows you to have a more complex game without bombarding a new player with too much information or too many options they don't understand when they first start.

      Sticking with the MW2 example in the summary. A new player will need to learn some basics before they can really make use of that stinger launcher, silencer, or claymore anyway. Depending on how new they are, they'll need to learn anything from how to move around and identify targets (new to the FPS genre) to getting some idea of the map layouts, and a general idea of what does what among the available equipment/perks/killstreak rewards (new to the specific game). Giving them a few decent premade classes to pick from while learning these basics rather than dropping them in with the full range of custom class options is not necessarily a bad thing. It can make the game more accessible by allowing the learning curve progress at a more gradual rate, without sacrificing complexity in the higher-end game.

      Certainly, specifics details such as pacing of unlocks and placing objectively "better" pieces of equipment further up the tree can hurt such a system. Also, players who are already familiar with the game will most likely have a certain degree of annoyance about not having access to everything up front (but once again, good pacing can make this a minor issue). It's up to the individual developer to strike a balance between presenting new players a simpler version of the game, and allowing more skilled players to reach their desired specialization in a reasonable time frame. So-called RPG elements and equipment unlocks are a reasonable way to accomplish this.

      tldr: A well paced unlock/RPG system allows new players to learn the basics before moving on to more specific and specialized roles.

    46. Re:WTF? by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      EVE Online is a complete niche game with a very limited audience compared to your regular trash console FPS title with a lifespan of 4 weeks?

      A "niche game" whose hundreds of thousands of users pony up every single month to play.

      I can think of a lot of game companies that would love to have a "niche game" as successful as Eve Online.

      Anyway, my point was not that Eve Online is the game of the century. I was just responding to the GPP's assertion that the games out today don't require as much "cerebrum" as System Shock.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    47. Re:WTF? by dangitman · · Score: 1

      All games have a set of rules and mechanics, and that alone requires some thinking. The material may not be particularly engaging, but all the games you mention involve pattern recognition and response.

      Crossing the road requires thinking, pattern recognition and response. That doesn't make it an intellectual exercise.

      I'm not saying that games don't involve thinking or that there aren't intelligent games. But the notion that playing video games is a purely geeky activity and not for "jocks" is just wrong. When I grew up, the nerds and geeks would spend more time programming than playing games. Meanwhile, the "jocks" were huge consumers of video games. Historically, video games have not been marketed towards nerds.

      What I'm objecting to is the revisionist history in that post, not the idea that computer games don't appeal to nerds. Many posters on slashdot have a nasty habit of rewriting history in a nerd-centric and inaccurate way.

      --
      ... and then they built the supercollider.
    48. Re:WTF? by Turiko · · Score: 2, Interesting

      okay, i'll look back at what games were awesome the past years.

      I have played, in the past 5 years: unreal tournament 2004, unreal tournament 3, overlord, doom 3, SPORE, warhammer 40k - dawn of war 2, gears of war, team fortress 2, blacksite: area 51, frontlines: fuel of war, fallout 3, prototype, oblivion, COD4, EVE online and a bunch of MMORPG's.

      i put this list together with my xfire profile. What games were good in the last 6 or so years that i played? I went out and bought most of the good games. Some were simply crap (spore), others were weak and unfinished (fallout 3). In the end, only very few games are actually worth a damn.

      Compared to about 8-9 years ago, every game i bought was fun. Quake 3, mechwarrior, emperor: battle for dune, ......

      I honestly can't find a game older then 6-7 years that isn't still fun, and wasn't good for the time it as released. I never sold any games yet either, so it's not like i'm subjectively filtering stuff out.

      I think nostalgia is unimportant here. The big companies now want to cater to the mass. The mass has a poor taste, because there's so many people (duh). So it's impossible to make a game everyone likes, yet so many companies try. Even good developers like blizzard have mostly stopped developing good games. Sure, starcraft 2 and diablo 3 are in development, but how long have they been and how long will they will?
      In the meantime, they recently started talking about a new expansion, and oh look, it's almost here already. Which of the games has priority then? The cash cow.

      There just ARE less good games out there then there used to be. That's because gaming is mainstream, and "easier to develop for" (with profit). So, companies that shouldn't make games, and they fail. Look at flagship studios for an example, they developed hellgate: london.

    49. Re:WTF? by xouumalperxe · · Score: 1

      But is the game itself really that cerebral, or the fact that the game was designed to allow politics

      Is chess all that cerebral, then? What makes EVE cerebral isn't that it allows politics. It's that it promotes politics as a game element.

    50. Re:WTF? by Aklyon · · Score: 1

      Dwarf Fortress is another game with a brick wall level learning curve. have ya tried it?

      --
      I reserve the right to have a physical object so I can sell it later, and recover my money.
    51. Re:WTF? by brkello · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't mod you down, but I disagree with you completely. You are looking at the past with rose colored glasses. The games today are just as good, if not better, than the ones in the past. When a field is new, everything is innovative. The best of the innovation becomes a genre. This is how it is in just about everything. Get used to it.

      There are so many good games out right now, I can't even come close to keep up. Had difficulty been set lower? Yes and no. Now we have the option to make it easier if we want to play through the game or we can make it really hard if we crave that. I don't want to go back to the times where I had to start Cobra Triangle over from the start because I keep getting owned by that log.

      Quite frankly, there are plenty of non-"dumbed down" games out there. You are just one of those people with the broken mindset that if you criticize stuff, it makes you cool. There is a lot of great games out there if you would just pull your head out of your dosbox.

      --
      Support a great indie game: http://www.abaddon360.com
  2. RPG? by Ubi_NL · · Score: 2, Funny

    I must admit I rarely play these games but I thought all of them had Rocket Propelled Grenades in them since Doom?

    --

    If an experiment works, something has gone wrong.
    1. Re:RPG? by jhoegl · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Uh... Wolfenstine 3d...

      Scrub.

    2. Re:RPG? by Narishma · · Score: 2, Informative

      If you meant Wolfenstein 3D, it didn't have an RPG.

      --
      Mada mada dane.
    3. Re:RPG? by Ubi_NL · · Score: 1

      good point

      --

      If an experiment works, something has gone wrong.
    4. Re:RPG? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who needs an RPG when you have a BFG?

    5. Re:RPG? by jhoegl · · Score: 1

      Yeah, it did.

  3. Not because of RPG elements by Toonol · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The removal of Mod Tools in MW2 has nothing to do with any RPG elements. It is completely feasible for RPGs to have mods, and indeed many popular RPGs have some of the most impressive mods. Also, the summary mentions Bioshock, but that games was a 'spiritual successor' to System shock 1 & 2, and Bioshock actually was LESS of an RPG than those.

    I can understand the complaint about RPG elements (in simple form) creeping into other genres, but a similar problem is faced by RPGs; they are being diluted by other genres. Look at something like Fallout 3 for an example. I'd argue that the bigger problem is that ALL game series seem to eventually slowly turn into first person shooters with light rpg elements. It's a lowest common denominator style of gameplay that is pulling in games from all directions.

    1. Re:Not because of RPG elements by polar+red · · Score: 1

      Soon they will pull harvesting in(like in dune2 and its successors, or warcraft1,2). I can see the range of possible weapons increase : chaingun, laserbeam, rocketlauncher, scythe, pick, hammer, spade, ... My mousewheel will wear out FAST !

      --
      Yes, I'm left. You have a problem with that?
    2. Re:Not because of RPG elements by mlts · · Score: 4, Interesting

      This has been going on for a long time. If one stretched things, they could say that World of Warcraft is a FPS with an extreme number of powerups. However, FPS is a concept is a known quantity. You put out something in this type of genre, and you will almost certainly break even at the minimum.

      Finding new ways to do a RPG combat system is hard. There are not that many ways to do combat, so FPS mechanics is one of the most used. Turn by turn combat used to be the RPG mainstay, but for many people, it is too slow a method of resolving conflict. There are other combat systems, but if a game relies too much on arcade reflexes, it might turn people away.

      For single player, most likely the best bet for a modern RPG these days would be a system used by NWN and NWN2, where people can pause the action before making their next decision, but if they know what exactly is going on, can still do an almost real-time battle.

      What I've not seen that much of are RPGs with RTS mechanics. Picture having your group of people that you start out with at a beginning of the game, and each of them has some ability and weakness. There would have to be more plot and character development for an RPG to separate it from Warcraft 1-3 (adding multiple endings, having side quests), but it could be done.

      One scenario using these type of mechanics could be pushing back some orcs [1] who are pillaging some nearby villages. You send in some scouts to see what exactly their weaknesses are (one village has an orc wizard fireballing buildings. Another has an orc chieftain who keeps his band up with heals. Still another has a warrior chieftain.) Then you send whatever guys you have that would be the best against the type of enemy at hand. With different playstyles, one could have a lot of grunt troops and just swarm the villages, send in ranged troops (with some melee in front as a distraction), or perhaps even find a way to use some type of negotiating skill to get the orc tribal leaders to accept a keg of ogre swill as treasure enough so they stop their invasion.

      Another scenario could be a castle siege. You have your forces and need to punch a hole in the castle walls, while fending off forces coming from other sides. Part of the RPG would be doing side quests. One side quest earns you better siege engines. Another gets enemy troops to not join in on the fight. Still another side quest just might allow the player to earn such a famous/infamous reputation that they can just bypass the siege altogether and have the opposing side open the doors and surrender.

      This isn't to say this has not been done before, but RPG/RTS mechanics are not something seen often in modern games. What sets RPGs apart from "plain old" RTS/FPS games is having multiple endings, multiple side quests, and different consequences for player actions. For example, if a PC is an extremely good diplomat, it may allow for some battles to be skipped or handled in a different way. Similar if a PC does side quests for a reputation. Throwing in some mini-games [2] may be the answer here as a way to help (perhaps use the RTS engine so the player can work as a mercenary general in order to help your side get land or resources in between plot advances.)

      [1]: Classic AD&D/LoTR orcs which would be more than happy to stuff any intelligent race in a stewpot. Except dwarves. They are just too hard to clean.

      [2]: One recent mini-game I liked was the Risk-like one in James Cameron's "Avatar". It was fairly tough because you had very little territory at the start, so you could either play your chances slowly, or start the mini game every so often, because you got more money as the main game progressed. Mini games have to be done right though. For example, the card one in FF8 a lot of players just skipped for the most part.

    3. Re:Not because of RPG elements by AlmondMan · · Score: 1

      I personally enjoy the creeping in of RPG elements in games that traditionally don't make use of them. What I however do not understand is how that has anything to do with the lack of modtools or whatever.
      Recently I've been playing a bit of an indie game called Killing Floor, which apparently started out as a mod for UT2k4. This is quite an enjoyable cheap little game with a handful of different classes and a handful of levels for each. Make headshots, and become better with precision weapons, that sort of thing. It gives a nice sense of perpetuity and progress to playing the game. Not sure how much I'll enjoy it once I hit max level. Chances are I'll shelve it, but hey, I enjoyed it while it lasted and it cost 1/4th what a AAA game that would've not last me 8 hours would have.

    4. Re:Not because of RPG elements by Splab · · Score: 1

      The castle scenario is done in WoW, PvP in wintergrasp is about protecting or storming the castle (depending on who won last match), the attacker starts out with their own set of towers which the faction on defense can attack to end the match quicker, there are several siege engine shops where controlling faction of said shop can acquire engines. And of course you got all your weapons/spells from normal levelling in WoW.

      Loads of fun, it does however take quite some time before you are level 80 to join the fight (and have gear good enough to not get instagibbed in the battles).

    5. Re:Not because of RPG elements by mister_playboy · · Score: 1

      Ogre Battle for SNES/PS1 and Ogre Battle64 for N64 are what spring to mind as closest to your idea.

      --
      Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law ::: Love is the law, love under will
    6. Re:Not because of RPG elements by Yamata+no+Orochi · · Score: 1

      Final Fantasy Tactics and the entire Fire Emblem series suggests "not seen often," may not be entirely accurate. Both are pretty damned popular.

    7. Re:Not because of RPG elements by MrBogard · · Score: 1

      I wrote this, and I understand a lot of the reactions here. It does come off as a bit of a bitchy rant, but I had good intentions. I actually like the blending of genres myself, I just am worried about the future of competitive games as a side effect. This is where the lack of mod tools has had a tremendous effect on the Call of Duty community. People don't compete in COD4 with perks and attachments. They play promodlive, which not only stripped down the customization of the game, but also rebalanced it for straight competitive play. Infinity Ward forces you to play it *their way*, which while not necessarily a bad thing still limits our "classic" experience.

    8. Re:Not because of RPG elements by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      i for one am glad to see the genres mixing up. i've always liked rpg games, but less so fps unless they were very story driven. the main game i'm playing now is fallen earth, which mixes fps combat into an mmorpg, admitedly not the most high grade of fps but the whole thing of being able to craft your own weapons, ammo and armour and having some advantage by being a good fps player (headshots do more damage) one gets the best of both to some degree. it's not really anything new anyway, x3, for example, mixes up space combat with rpg elements and that's not really a very new game. the rpg elements are a nice feature of the s.t.a.l.k.e.r. games as well, but it doesn't go far enough and left me craving for a full blown mmorpg/fps with faction war... then i found out a similar kind of game already exists. however the combat in stalker games is much more realistic, with proper animations and full time first person view and realistic ballistics and weapon reload times and weapon switching.

      also gta3 onwards mixes up first and third person melee and firearms combat with story, silly 'fun' games like darts and bowling and dance game type sub-games as well as racing and flying. i think it is not anything other than a product of the increase in capability of game hardware and software that allows multiple game mechanics to be blended together.

    9. Re:Not because of RPG elements by MrBogard · · Score: 1

      Here's me wishing I left the MW2 example out of the rant entirely. There is a relationship between the two, but it's hardly what I wanted people to come away with when they read this. The removal of mod tools effects people who don't fall in line with current trends, because it forces us to play the game as is out of box. Many Call of Duty 4 players play "promod" to avoid the pitfalls of progression. For what it's worth, I *don't* play MW2, and I do still play COD4. I am sorry that I was not able to communicate the purpose of that example more clearly, and certainly wish it wasn't part of the summary.

    10. Re:Not because of RPG elements by Hatta · · Score: 1

      Turn by turn combat used to be the RPG mainstay, but for many people, it is too slow a method of resolving conflict.

      Then maybe they shouldn't play RPGs. An RPG with real time combat is an action-adventure game.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    11. Re:Not because of RPG elements by dosilegecko · · Score: 1

      I think people enjoy character building, rather than skill building. Nowadays developers may see that players get more of a rewarding feeling if their crappy character becomes strong so that the difficulty of the game stays about the same the way through, even though the enemies/challenges are getting tougher. This is in contrast to your character staying crappy, but you, the gamer, get better and eventually are able to beat the harder parts. Its a case of growth of character VS. growth of player, and its easier or seen as more profitable to cater to the character building. These RPG elements are just a way of taking the stress of improving off of the player, and placing it on their character. It makes for a more casual gaming experience.

    12. Re:Not because of RPG elements by jollyreaper · · Score: 1

      What I've not seen that much of are RPGs with RTS mechanics. Picture having your group of people that you start out with at a beginning of the game, and each of them has some ability and weakness. There would have to be more plot and character development for an RPG to separate it from Warcraft 1-3 (adding multiple endings, having side quests), but it could be done.

      The Crescent Hawk's Revenge, a very early RTS mechwarrior game. You had about twenty missions and mech states would carry over from one mission to the next. The game was pretty linear with a few branches, path A or B to reach an intended goal. Mechs had pilots with stats and you had the opportunity to swap pilots and mechs at certain points. Would be seen as incredibly rudimentary by today's standards but none of these mechanics are present in modern-day RTS.

      Personally, I like the idea of carrying units over from mission to mission. I like the idea of putting a name and a face to the pilot. I really like having a storyline tightly integrated with the gameplay. Total Annihilation had a superior game engine but I was really wrapped up in Warcraft's story. Never played Warcraft 3, heard bad reviews of it.

      --
      Kwisatz Haderach
      Sell the spice to CHOAM
      This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
    13. Re:Not because of RPG elements by Monkeedude1212 · · Score: 1

      The trouble I have is distinguishing what is setting apart the RTS from the RPG - since they are both incredibly similar in game mechanics. You sit above, select unit, tell unit to perform action. The RTS part naturally suggests that its real time (as its in the name) and the RPG part suggests there is role-playing, which is exactly what Warcraft 3/Dota are, and the literally half a dozen remakes to have come out of it kept are doing. It's not that these games aren't around anymore, it's that they are a dead horse that often and repeatedly get beaten. There was a game to come out that featured this 2 months ago (I remember seeing a deal on Steam) and I remember one about 6 or 7 months before that.

      As for the complaints about the RPG Takeover - its not just RPG's, but every genre of game is getting mixed into one. It used to be that only adventure games had an actual adventure to go on, which now results in every game having a story and adventure games become puzzle games. No one is complaining that games have a story now. A lot of games now just mix in elements from EVERY Genre, so it blurs the lines of what is what. I could mention Battlefield 2142 or Savage 2 - as elements of RTS, FPS, and RPG are all prevalent.

    14. Re:Not because of RPG elements by Reapman · · Score: 1

      Wow, someone else that has played this game.. I consider it one of my all time favorites for back in the day. It was pretty advanced for it's time, big leap from Crescent Hawks Inception. too bad it was also the last.

    15. Re:Not because of RPG elements by IshmaelDS · · Score: 1

      damn i had forgotten all about those games, those were awesome!

      --
      letting an idiot know they are an idiot is not a game... it's a responsibility. - by Kristopeit, M. D. (1892582)
    16. Re:Not because of RPG elements by nlawalker · · Score: 1

      The removal of mod tools in MW2 most certainly does have something to do with the RPG elements.

      Bioshock and Fallout 3 aren't competitive multiplayer games - your level doesn't affect anyone outside of your one-player game. Leveling in MW2 controls access to perks and weapons that are supposed to be earned, and your level is supposed to be indicative of your relative experience and playtime. The leveling system creates a community hierarchy. Now, I'm not making any argument about whether or not that aspect adds to the game. What I'm saying is that if mod tools existed, nobody could play the game the way the devs intended because the leveling structure would be completely useless, at least in the game's current incarnation - people would just mod their way to 70 and that's that.

      I suppose they could have created an option like Diablo 2's "hardcore" mode that guarantees character integrity - they could have segmented play into a completely unranked, all-perks-and-weapons, no EXP mode and a separate, ranked, leveling mode where you earn your achievements. However, saying "mod tools don't affect RPG elements" would be like me saying that everyone should just get infinite money and experience in WoW - it changes the way the game works.

    17. Re:Not because of RPG elements by RMingin · · Score: 1

      I see you haven't played Red Faction: Guerrilla. You have a sledgehammer, and you go around whacking any 'crystal deposits' you see for in-game currency, used to purchase upgrades and new weapons.

      The future is now, but it sucks.

      --
      The preceding comment is my own, and in no way construes an opinon of the Emperor of Mankind.
    18. Re:Not because of RPG elements by thepotoo · · Score: 1

      No. They are action-RPGs. Vampire - Bloodlines, Deus Ex, Diablo, Defense of the Ancients. These are action RPGs. The very best (the first two I listed) allow you to change the story, and have loads of dialogue to back up the action. A different type (also good, but not to my tastes so much) eschews story for pure stat-based combat. These tend to have superior combat systems, but lack decent dialogue and interesting characters.

      I concur with the GP that an RTS-RPG would be awesome. Dawn of War II had a fairly solid single player campaign, and it could have been truly spectacular if it had contained interactive dialogue, quests, and the ability for player choices to impact the story. Think Planescape - Torment with a cover system, suppression, the need to flank, build defenses, and the freedom to solve situations multiple ways (will I use dialogue, bribe the guard, kill him, or try to micromanage my stealth units past him?). That would be one hell of a game.

      --
      Obligatory Soundbite Catchphrase
    19. Re:Not because of RPG elements by kalirion · · Score: 1

      In other news, the increase of XBox 360 Controller Support in PC games has the downside of increased DRM use.

    20. Re:Not because of RPG elements by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      Um, no. It's an action RPG game. or 'real time RPG', or 'FPS RPG'.(1)

      An action adventure game where problem solving skills, not just combat, are needed to get around. And it also requires 'combat', or at least real time stuff.

      An action game (Specifically, an FPS) with enough problem solving required to be 'action adventure' is Half Life. An adventure game with enough action sequences to be 'action adventure' is 'The Indigo Prophesy'.

      I know you're some sort of RPG purist, but there is, in fact, a genre of games called 'adventure' and a mixed genre called 'action adventure' that introduces real-time elements to the adventure genre, and people are fans of those games, and we'd appreciate it if you didn't try to stick blended genre RPGs in it.

      Incidentally, I have to laugh at the 'real time' complaint. I've got several RPGs, and most of them will pause when combat starts, if you so want. All games by Bioware, one of the major RPG producers, will do it. It's just the MMORPGs that won't do that, because they have no pause at all.

      So if your complaint is solely that, it's sorta stupid. Yes, they no longer sell games that require 'turn-based walking around', because 99% of the population finds that very annoying. But many of them let you do turn-based combat. (Perhaps it's worth mentioning that non-computer RPGs like D&D don't care much about 'turns' except in combat or other time sensitive situations, either.) Likewise, the reason they don't have turned-based MMORPGs is that people won't put up with the delay waiting for their turn. (Those people are all over playing Civ 4.)

      If you want to argue that 'RPG', by itself, means turn-based RPG, and non-turned-based ones should be called 'action RPGs' or something, fine, I got no problem with that. Don't try to stick them in with action adventure games, though. And arguing non-turned-based ones aren't RPGs at all is just silly.

      1) 'Action' games are 'reflex based' games, or 'real time' games, where you have to do things in a critical amount of time or you lose. Some people consider FPSs and platformers and whatnot a sub-genre of this, some people arguing that those are rightfully genres by themselves, and 'action' is whatever is left over. This argument isn't very important, I'm just mentioning what I use 'action' to mean.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    21. Re:Not because of RPG elements by Hatta · · Score: 1

      Any action game is not an RPG. Because you are playing a role, what matters is the skill of the character, not the skill of the player.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    22. Re:Not because of RPG elements by sabt-pestnu · · Score: 1

      Sorry, never played those games... but "Ogre" and "Battle" do bring up another memory for me: a tabletop game from Steve Jackson Games.

      It ain't a real Ogre unless it's a continental siege unit! ... Unless it's a Bolo instead...

    23. Re:Not because of RPG elements by Nalgas+D.+Lemur · · Score: 1

      There are a bunch of other games similar to those, too. However, they're all turn-based strategy, not RTS like he was talking about. While I and plenty of other people like those, there are a lot of people who don't like anything turn-based and think it's too slow and doesn't have enough action.

    24. Re:Not because of RPG elements by TheFlamingoKing · · Score: 1

      "The removal of mod tools effects people who don't fall in line with current trends, because it forces us to play the game as is out of box."

      This word "force"... it does not mean what you seem to think.

      You were not forced to buy MW2; you are not forced to play it. Should you choose to purchase and play it, you agree to use it under IW's terms. If you do not agree to the system that IW has created, feel free to purchase other games that have a mechanic closer to what you want to see. If there is no game that matches exactly what you want, feel free to create the game yourself.

      IW doesn't have to make anything available to you. It's your job as a consumer to decide if their proposition has value to you. The game has made over a billion dollars, so obviously millions of people have decided that it does. But you really sound like just pure whining when you invoke some evil corporate overlord that's "forcing" you to play a game. You are the one that makes the choice.

      I really hope this vein of story doesn't make front page Slashdot very often.

    25. Re:Not because of RPG elements by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      By that logic, any game you're playing is not an RPG. Because how well the character does is based on the skill of the player.

      Ladies and gentlemen, the only true RPG: Progress Quest.

      Perhaps what you mean is 'What matter is the intelligence of the player, not the reflexes of the player', but that stops being some obvious conclusion from the term 'role-playing', and instead is obviously what it is: An unsubstantiated assertion that doesn't really have anything do with anything.

      As I said, the genre of adventure games requires intelligence, and the genre of action adventure requires that, plus reflexes. Likewise, the genre of RPGs require intelligence, and the genre that additionally requires reflexes should logically be called 'action RPG' or 'real time RPG' or something. It's a mix of the RPG and action genres, and should be called such.

      But, regardless, call it whatever you want. Although I will point out that if you remove MMORPGs from 'RPGs', the amount of RPGs sold would probably be reduced by three-fourths...good luck getting manufacturers to produce more RPGs with those sales numbers. You're shooting yourself in the face there with your definition.

      Just don't call it action adventure, because that's taken by adventure games with action elements.

      OTOH, if we could convince game manufacturers that WoW was an adventure game...hey, wait, forget what I just said. Please please run around asserting that that people have bought 10s of millions of adventure games, which would probably octuple the total sales and revitalize the genre. Go ahead, I formally withdrawn my objection, and I ask that you just call them straight out 'adventure' games instead of 'action adventure'.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    26. Re:Not because of RPG elements by Behrooz · · Score: 1

      ...the sledgehammer also works quite well for smacking around enemies and destroying almost anything that's destructible.

      --
      "We have to go forth and crush every world view that doesn't believe in tolerance and free speech." - David Brin
    27. Re:Not because of RPG elements by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Now that would probably be the most epic fight in SF... the Ogre against a comparable Bolo.

    28. Re:Not because of RPG elements by enderjsv · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I like how he failed to mention that, to make the game sound lame. Shame

    29. Re:Not because of RPG elements by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I hear you about Fallout 3, but you would not be speaking this way had you tried Dragon Age: Origins. That's a solid modern RPG. Make the distinction between Bethesda and Bioware.

    30. Re:Not because of RPG elements by MrBogard · · Score: 1

      Game developers, including Infinity Ward, have been catering to their fans for decades. The consumer is *not* vein or out of line to expect or even demand certain features. I did not buy, or play Modern Warfare 2 (not that it ultimately matters, since everyone else did). By exercising more control over their product, they're actually giving us fewer options while pretending to give us more. This, "feel free to make your own game" nonsense is, well, nonsense. What Infinity Ward *has* to do to make a billion dollars shouldn't be the only thing that motivates them if they're actually interested in making great games. Valve certainly doesn't have to provide epic support for Team Fortress 2, but they do it, not out of the kindness of their hearts but because it helps grow their community and fan base and keeps their customers happy and loyal. If only more people could see past short term goals and bottom lines.

    31. Re:Not because of RPG elements by mlts · · Score: 1

      What would separate a RPG from the RTS are decisions leading to different campaigns. Say you have a band of chainsaw fencers. You can take out the drow outpost, or the human citadel. Depending on which group's outpost gets the beatdown, the rest of the game will have campaigns that go either way. The next mission would either help a drow spider-queen secure her new outpost, or you fight with the humans to push out invaders to reclaim claim ancient breweries.

      In general, a RTS campaign is linear. Modern RPGs have many branches, side quests, and endings. (Always exceptions... Final Fantasy, for example.)

    32. Re:Not because of RPG elements by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Appealing to the lowest common denominator style of gameplay? I thought that was Nintendo's strategy...

    33. Re:Not because of RPG elements by ToasterMonkey · · Score: 1

      Total Annihilation had a superior game engine but I was really wrapped up in Warcraft's story.

      Warcraft, II anyway, did have a high quality story line for its day - but TA didn't just have the superior game engine, it had arguably, the best gameplay for an RTS.. ever..

      It wasn't just a 3D RTS for the sake of being 3D (as in every single RTS since TA), it was only 3D enough to add gameplay value. Tons of it... planes that actually moved in a 3D space and collided with stray projectiles, oceans with depth, real hills from which weapons could be shot further, indirect weapons that actually worked, valleys that provided cover, etc. 3D aside, there were combined land, air and sea forces of equal capacity, distributed resource gathering, multiple methods of gathering resources, terrain advantages, radar, radar jamming, waypointing, distributed base construction, nuclear missiles, nuclear missile interceptors, you really EARNED super weapons, and really open ended play with very high replayablity.

      Maybe in ten years, C&C 17 will have indirect weapons that don't require line of sight.. or units that are not flat, or terrain that offers [dis]advantages.. like in what's it called, The Art of War? Maybe hill=good is too hard for RTS gamers to digest, who knows.

      I know you weren't trying to dog TA, I'm just saying gameplay is the most important and ignored aspect of a game. Everything else is icing on the cake. I thought it was really funny you used TA in your example, because so many RTS games at that time lacked both imaginative story _and_ gameplay, and TA knocked one of those right out the park. Just too many RTS games back then :\

    34. Re:Not because of RPG elements by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This isn't to say this has not been done before, but RPG/RTS mechanics are not something seen often in modern games.

      I'd imagine we haven't seen too many RPG/RTS hybrids because, let's be honest - RTS's haven't necessarily been a high selling genre in recent times. By making an RPG that uses RTS mechanics (or vice versa), you're basically fractioning an already fractioned fanbase.

    35. Re:Not because of RPG elements by Jesus_666 · · Score: 1

      System Shock 2 (not sure about 1) is a good example - it has an editor and a once-thriving modding scene. In fact, it would probably still thrive if the game wasn't completely unstable on any operating system after Windows 98.

      --
      USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
    36. Re:Not because of RPG elements by Monkeedude1212 · · Score: 1

      I think storyline branching originated in RPG's but can be found almost anywhere nowa-days. Most Star Wars games include them. StarCraft Brood War had some mission Branching and side missions, Warcraft 3 had tons of them (though thats an example of RTS And RPG mixed). The Hitman series let you perform the missions in a wide variety of ways.

      Thing is, I don't know if I'd really consider Grand Theft Auto a Role playing Game (though that is exactly what you're doing) just because it contains the elements of side quests and endings and an open sandbox world.

      Just about any game with a sandbox world has multiple ways to carry out mission objectives.

  4. Addicted to fake achievement by rwa2 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    But it's the only chance a lot of people would have (thus broadening their market)...

    http://www.pixelpoppers.com/2009/11/awesome-by-proxy-addicted-to-fake.html

    1. Re:Addicted to fake achievement by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I'd like to call bullshit on the findings of this article.

      I really like RPG games, but I have also mastered FPS games to the point of being routinely accused of botting. Looking back, the time sunken into both could have been used much more constructively.

    2. Re:Addicted to fake achievement by Simulant · · Score: 1

      That's a great way to put it.

    3. Re:Addicted to fake achievement by Labcoat+Samurai · · Score: 1

      Sounds like you have elements of both types of personalities the article describes. I suspect that's true of most people. Hell, sometimes I even exhibit both traits while playing the same game. I've played RPGs with serious challenges even after you reach the level cap, but I also enjoy fighting easier enemies and obliterating them with the power I earned through little more than time and patience. I don't think there's anyone who wants to have to work hard for positive feedback *all* the time, but I also think that most people will ultimately feel unfulfilled if they never have to take any risks or work for their success.

      Consequently, I think his concerns are overblown for the average gamer. However, I do know a person who fits his description perfectly. My younger brother (ironically, his name is actually Paul, like the hypothetical kid in the article... and... mine is actually Matt like the other hypothetical kid in the article....) plays RPGs almost exclusively and is the kind of person who hardly takes any risks or puts any effort into life. He loves those RPGs, presumably because success is a foregone conclusion, which makes them safe and and gives him all the reassuring platitudes he requires to forget about the world around him.

  5. Two issues here by RogueyWon · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I think there are two distinct issues highlighted in the story, which don't necessarily have a particularly strong connection.

    The first is the creep of RPG elements into other genres. I've certainly noticed this myself, and there are a few obvious manifestations. The most obvious is the idea that the player should get more powerful over the course of the game, and that said power should not be subject to resets. If you look at a traditional shoot-em-up, the player picks up new weapons as he plays through the game, but once he gets shot and loses a life, he's generally back to the pea-shooter he started the game with. This model is now almost dead, at least in its pure form. If you look at any recent action game - Bayonetta, for example - some items (such as health potions and the disposable weapons) may be temporary, but as the player gets further into the game, they accumulate persistent upgrades, such as a longer health bar, more special moves and better weapons. In fact, a lot of games give players who have already beaten them the option of starting over, while carrying over their upgrades from previous cycles.

    So why has this happened? I think the gaming industry has realised that, now that gaming is primarily an activity that takes place in the home rather than in arcades, people do not like excessive penalties for failure. Allowing a power-curve in games is pretty much established in most genres these days, but resetting that curve whenever a player makes a mistake results in people switching off the console - and loses future sales for games in that series. There are still a few titles that hold out - Mario, in particular, which even still preserves the obsolete concept of "lives" in some installments - but they increasingly look like antiquated oddities. We always seem to get a few odd cases here on slashdot who like to post on threads about MMOs saying "they'd be more fun if they had permadeath", but it's interesting that commercial MMO operators, who have to put their money where their mouth is, have never seen fit to pursue this. I think they know what they're doing.

    The second issue is around the restriction of modding, which I don't really see as being at all related to the spread of RPG elements. After all, RPGs are historically highly moddable, from their roots in the pen and paper market onwards. The Neverwinter Nights games were heavily marketed with their modability as a key selling point. However, there does seem to be a trend towards restriction of modding in some genres, including fpses. I think there are two drivers for this. The first, simply put, is a "hot coffee" reaction. As certain countries (eg. Germany and Australia) adopt wildly restrictive attitudes towards video game content, developers are naturally more paranoid about being criticised (or sued) for game content that was actually added or unlocked by a third party mod. The other cause is the desire to deliver a more consistent experience.

    I think this stems from the console market. Consoles have many disadvantages compared to the PC as platforms for multiplayer gaming, but they do have a big advantage; consistency of hardware. While there will still be imbalances due to connection quality, the hardware is the same in every case, so there are fewer non-skill-related variables invovled in gaming. In some ways, this actually makes the game more suitable for serious competition. There may be another factor related to something I remember relating to Quake 3; graphical "vandalism". I remember how when Quake 3 had its brief honeymoon with the gaming community (before being buried by Counter-Strike), almost all high level players (and most of the wannabes) played with graphical details that made the game look more like Carrier Command than a modern fps. I remember reading that ID weren't happy about how their game was being shown off, and that this fed into the more restrictive graphical options within Quake 3.

    1. Re:Two issues here by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Eve has "permadeath" of a sort. When you lose you ship, you lose your ship. Fittings, cargo content, ammunition, modifications... Gone. It's like all of your armour and weapons being lost in WoW, especially when you amass Faction modified variants. Insurance covers the ship to a point, but not totally.

      You can buy clones for your actual character, but that again doesn't cover stat-boosting Implants. You lose those if your pod is destroyed (character is killed). If you don't have a clone, you lose all of your Skill Points too. For some characters, that can be many years worth of time investment.

      Fighting in that game was more stressful in the way your body isn't catered to dealing with: Prolonged periods of suspense and fear, with no way to vent it.

      --
      Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
    2. Re:Two issues here by Zumbs · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The second issue is around the restriction of modding, which I don't really see as being at all related to the spread of RPG elements. After all, RPGs are historically highly moddable, from their roots in the pen and paper market onwards. The Neverwinter Nights games were heavily marketed with their modability as a key selling point. However, there does seem to be a trend towards restriction of modding in some genres, including fpses. I think there are two drivers for this. The first, simply put, is a "hot coffee" reaction. As certain countries (eg. Germany and Australia) adopt wildly restrictive attitudes towards video game content, developers are naturally more paranoid about being criticised (or sued) for game content that was actually added or unlocked by a third party mod. The other cause is the desire to deliver a more consistent experience.

      There is another reason to consider. While modding is a selling point, it is a selling point that has two drawbacks for the industry: 1) It extends the lifetime of the game, causing the gamer to purchase fewer games. An example is Morrowind that came out in 2001 and is still being modded. 2) Usermade content gives a free alternative to expansion packs and DLC, which may decrease sales. On the other hand, modding tools are likely to generate a larger and more active core of fans.

      I think this stems from the console market.

      As far as I know, console makers (MS and Sony, at least) hate usermade content on their consoles, making it diffcult (and against the EULA) to mod the games on their consoles.

      --
      The truth may be out there, but lies are inside your head
    3. Re:Two issues here by Splab · · Score: 1

      "As far as I know, console makers (MS and Sony, at least) hate usermade content on their consoles, making it diffcult (and against the EULA) to mod the games on their consoles."

      Little Big Planet...

    4. Re:Two issues here by RogueyWon · · Score: 1

      MS certainly seem to have slackened up a lot on this. Even leaving aside their indie sections on Xbox Live Arcade, we've seen more and more user-created content permitted in games recently.

      The best recent example is Forza 3, with its custom car skins. Anything outright offensive (eg. featuring nudity or bad language) will get squashed by the mods, but it's perfectly possible to download user-made car designs covering most conceivable eventualities (or upload your own), including designs which I would have thought have at least the potential to raise trademark issues. Happily, these are all traded using only in-game currency; no doubt a relief to those who remember being asked to play 400 MS points for a new skin for a plane in Ace Combat 6.

      Amusingly (and for once, this reflects well on MS in a way), it is quite possible to download car designs with Playstation logos plastered all over them, and drive them around in what is a single-platform Xbox-flagship game.

    5. Re:Two issues here by paulhar · · Score: 1

      > Fighting in that game was more stressful in the way your body isn't catered to dealing with: Prolonged periods of suspense and fear, with no way to vent it.

      You must have been playing a different game to me. (2004-2009)

      Prolonged periods of gate hugging, station camping, watching a bunch of dreads reinforce a POS while waiting 20-30 minutes for the FC to decide that it's ok to have them jump in.
      Sure, we had fun. We also had suspense, especially when your cloak fails to activate at a gate for some unknown reason and you still manage to escape, or when you decide to try to solo in a low sec system, but as soon as you moved away from carebearing into "serious" 0.0 warfare it became a "we all warp in and watch the repeated warp in, snap back, warp in effect while shields fall and nobody else is on grid... oh look... I'm in a station... didn't even see anyone".

      And no, you can't have my stuff.

    6. Re:Two issues here by Rogerborg · · Score: 1, Troll

      Little Big Planet, and...?

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    7. Re:Two issues here by TarMil · · Score: 1

      Little Big Planet...

      ... is a freedom oddity in a mostly-locked world.

    8. Re:Two issues here by MrBogard · · Score: 1

      The mod issue is only related here in that Call of Duty forces those RPG elements on to the player. Most clannies in Call of Duty 4 play promodlive, something not possible in MW2.

    9. Re:Two issues here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Little Big Planet, and...?

      The entire XNA for Xbox Live?

    10. Re:Two issues here by Zumbs · · Score: 1

      There is a difference in indie and usermade content. Where indie content is usually made by a smaller publisher and sold for money, usermade mods are usually made by hobbyists and distributed for free (at least on the PC). I'm not familiar with Forza, but is the "in-game currency" used to purchase new skins purchased with real world currency, or is it something you get by playing the game? Or a little bit of both?

      --
      The truth may be out there, but lies are inside your head
    11. Re:Two issues here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The first, simply put, is a "hot coffee" reaction. As certain countries (eg. Germany and Australia) adopt wildly restrictive attitudes towards video game content, developers are naturally more paranoid about being criticised (or sued) for game content that was actually added or unlocked by a third party mod.

      While Germany may have quite insane restrictions on game content, our judges can at least differentiate between the original game and a mod. At least I've never heard about anyone getting punished over some third party content.

    12. Re:Two issues here by Bakkster · · Score: 1

      The mod issue is only related here in that Call of Duty forces those RPG elements on to the player. Most clannies in Call of Duty 4 play promodlive, something not possible in MW2.

      I, on the other hand, quit playing CoD4 shortly after I hit level 50. The progression was the only reason I kept playing. Once I lost that, the FPS elements were all I had left, and they weren't that interesting to me. I messed around a bit with the .50 cal that unlocks at that level, then uninstalled and haven't touched the thing in a year.

      Not that I blame the competitive players for being upset. However, the real issue is with mod tools, the RPG elements are great, IMO.

      --
      Write your representatives! Repeal the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics!
    13. Re:Two issues here by MrBogard · · Score: 1

      Different strokes and all that. I don't fault you for liking something that I personally found boring after the novelty wore off. I just wish that developers could approach their products in a way that made everyone *mostly* happy. If there were mod tools for games like MW2 and Bad Company 2, people who crave more streamlined experiences could make that happen on their own dime.

    14. Re:Two issues here by Bakkster · · Score: 1

      I'm not familiar with Forza, but is the "in-game currency" used to purchase new skins purchased with real world currency, or is it something you get by playing the game? Or a little bit of both?

      The in-game currency is entirely earned in-game through racing or selling items (such as paint schemes or car setups) to other players. There is no way to buy in-game cash with real cash.

      Basically, it's just a framework for custom player skinning, with the editing tools and ability to share/gift/sell your creations built into normal gameplay. There's some fantastic stuff available, and those who create quality content are rewarded with game currency to buy more cars. It's a great incentive to encourage content creation.

      --
      Write your representatives! Repeal the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics!
    15. Re:Two issues here by iGN97 · · Score: 1

      Trials HD on the XBOX360?

    16. Re:Two issues here by Hatta · · Score: 1

      The first is the creep of RPG elements into other genres. I've certainly noticed this myself, and there are a few obvious manifestations

      And then there's the creep of action elements into RPGs. Where's my turn based combat?

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    17. Re:Two issues here by kyrre · · Score: 3, Interesting
      Off the top of my head:
      • LittleBigPlanet (level, content and character design)
      • Modnation Racers (in Beta, level and character design)
      • Unreal Tournament 3 (mods)
      • Gravity Crash (level design)
      • Uncharted 2 (Machima thingy)
      • Far Cry 2 (level design)

      I am sure there are more. Sony actually encourage user generated content believing it to be the next big thing in gaming. They call it Game 2.0 or something silly like that.

    18. Re:Two issues here by cthulu_mt · · Score: 2, Informative

      I did the 0.0 fleet fights for a few months and it is deadly dull. Go out in 10 man gangs of frigates and cruisers. That is where the real fun is at.

      --
      Virginia is for lovers. EVE is for griefers.
    19. Re:Two issues here by radish · · Score: 3, Informative

      XNA? Microsoft will give you a pretty complete 360 dev environment for free, and let you write games (or other apps) and run them on your console. Sure you have to pay a subscription fee ($100 a year I believe) to be able to distribute what you build, but if you're seriously into homebrew or whatever that doesn't seem like a terrible burden.

      --

      ---- Den ene knappen er powerknapp, den andre er Bender voice knapp "Bite My Shiny Metal Ass"

    20. Re:Two issues here by hlee · · Score: 1

      Parent's post helps reinforce OP's view that people in general do not like to be heavily penalized.

      While the mechanics in EVE allow for losses that can make any player cringe, most players will only engage in combat with ships they can afford to lose, with clones possessing relatively cheap implants, and utilize risk adverse tactics. If you don't have medical insurance, you lose a small percentage of your skill points when your pilot is killed, but you cannot lose all your accumulated skills due to a momentary lapse of judgement.

    21. Re:Two issues here by IshmaelDS · · Score: 1

      True but if they are smart they would just hire the mod teams (for anything truly successfull), I mean look at Counter-Strike. Started as a mod just a couple guys and then valve saw what they had done and the following they had and purchased it all, turned around and resold it and put new life back in a game that had passed it's selling peak.

      --
      letting an idiot know they are an idiot is not a game... it's a responsibility. - by Kristopeit, M. D. (1892582)
    22. Re:Two issues here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unreal Tournament 3 on the PS3 allows custom maps I believe.

    23. Re:Two issues here by kalirion · · Score: 1

      2) Usermade content gives a free alternative to expansion packs and DLC, which may decrease sales.

      However, if the expansion packs and DLC provide enough new content, many new mods will build on top of them, providing more sales from people who want to play the mods. See Neverwinter Nights.

    24. Re:Two issues here by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      The first point you make is simply a generalized point: Gaming genres are increasingly blending as makers attempt to sell to a broader market.

      You won't find many pure adventure games, either, or pure FPSs.

      I'm not entirely sure why this is is, and I don't really like it, but thinking it's solely about, and happening to, RPGs, show some sort of weird RPG tunnel vision.

      Hell, it happened to adventure games in the 90s. They all got action elements, and FPS started incorporating adventure elements willy-nilly, like Half-Life did.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    25. Re:Two issues here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      2) Usermade content gives a free alternative to expansion packs and DLC, which may decrease sales.

      However, if the expansion packs and DLC provide enough new content, many new mods will build on top of them, providing more sales from people who want to play the mods. See Neverwinter Nights.

      For the benefit of those who unfamiliar with Neverwinter Nights 1 and 2, I'll explain how this works. In order to play a user-made mod in these games you have to have all the game assets (e.g. objects, terrain, music, etc...) used in the mod installed locally. That means that if a mod maker uses elements from an official expansion in their mod, everyone that wants to to play this mod must have that expansion installed as well. Therefore it is possible to get someone who really wasn't interested in a given official expansion to purchase it; either because they are a mod maker and want to use some of the new game assets in their mods, or they like playing user-made mods and if there is good stuff in the expansion eventually many mod makers will use it in their mods.

    26. Re:Two issues here by Draek · · Score: 0, Redundant

      And 3) Mods raise customers' expectations for future products. Most Morrowind players were dissapointed with Oblivion despite it being (other than the "level up with you" issue) a far superior product in nearly every aspect, simply because it couldn't compete with a modded version of the same. Same with STALKER: Clear Sky with respect to Shadow of Chernobyl, and there's probably other examples I'm forgetting right now.

      --
      No problem is insoluble in all conceivable circumstances.
    27. Re:Two issues here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >If you don't have a clone, you lose all of your Skill Points too

      You only lose half of your skill with the most Skill Points, not everything. That still can be a bit harsh (a month of training for a fully implanted Titan pilot, for example).

    28. Re:Two issues here by Sobrique · · Score: 1

      It does indeed. I personally quite like that aspect - it's self balancing, in the sense that you can 'buy' an advantage with in game currency, but are essentially gambling with it - A T2 fitted heavy assault cruiser is more potent than a T1 fitted cruiser, but it's not proportionate to the price difference.
      A 'super pimped' officer fit faction battleship will carry tens of billions of isks of price tag. And it'll be a beast (assuming you're not an idiot) but at best it'll take 3:1 odds, against a 100mil battleship fit.
      I really like that - it means you don't see everyone running around 'full epic stuffz', but ... there's a lot of people who _don't_ play EVE, and who will _never_ play EVE because they hate the idea - hell they hate the idea of equipment degredation in WOW.

    29. Re:Two issues here by Jesus_666 · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      The first, simply put, is a "hot coffee" reaction. As certain countries (eg. Germany and Australia) adopt wildly restrictive attitudes towards video game content, developers are naturally more paranoid about being criticised (or sued) for game content that was actually added or unlocked by a third party mod.

      Note that neither Germany nor Australia are at fault here. it's the United States.

      Germany doesn't care about modding. Color all the blood green and remove and swastikas your game might contain and maybe tone down the gibbing a bit. Done*. We don't care if your game has tits or whether people can mod them in. We don't care whether people can use a game company-provided editor to make people bleed gallons of blood in swastika patterns. That's user-generated content and we pass our age restrictions based on what's in the package. I mean, we don't even care if there's a cheat code you can enter to turn blood back on (in fact, for a while "blood cheat" wa a staple of a German gamer's vocabulary). If the game as delivered doesn't have red blood and gibbing it's not that violent period.

      In the USA, however, your game can end up getting torn to pieces because you have a modding tool that theoretically allows people to add nude textures to ingame characters. Somehow that affects people's opinions on the game. And suddenly the publisher has a case against releasing the dev tools.


      * Granted, depictions of excessive violence dont need blood to net the game a restriction over here. But as long as you don't make a Manhunt clone you should be fairly safe.

      --
      USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
    30. Re:Two issues here by Zumbs · · Score: 1

      There is a point there, but I doubt that the ratio of mod users were high enough for that to be a serious problem. It is also my gut feeling that most casual mod users install texture packs, body replacers or similar graphics mods. I also do not agree with unmodded Oblivion being superior to unmodded Morrowind in almost all aspects. The graphics were nicer (particularly long distance rendering) and there were some gameplay improvements, such as casting spells with weapons equipped. There were more interesting quest lines in Morrowind - you even had a few real choices along the way. Morrowind also had an actual political infrastructure, where allying yourself with one faction would bar you from allying yourself with another faction. In fact, you *could* ally yourself with one of the factions. In Oblivion, you can be the guild master of all the guilds, and no one questions what the guild master of the fighters guild is doing for the assassins guild. And you can't sell out the thieves guild to the authorities ...

      --
      The truth may be out there, but lies are inside your head
    31. Re:Two issues here by brkello · · Score: 1

      So, Eve has permadeath. Except you don't die since you have a clone. But your ship really does die! Except you have insurance that covers most of that. But you lose implants! Which you can rebuy, but most people aren't going to fight with their expensive implants in. So essentially there is no permadeath and you are just left with a repair bill to replace implants and what insurance didn't cover in the ship. Hardcore!

      Oh, yes, the thrill of targeting your enemy. Orbiting them and pushing F1-F6. That's so stressful!

      I think people who like Eve have very active imaginations. I really tried to like the game, but it is about as exciting as an Excel spreadsheet with a poorly designed GUI. They actually made space combat boring.

      --
      Support a great indie game: http://www.abaddon360.com
  6. Incoherent summary by pangu · · Score: 1

    What does adding RPG elements have to do with removing tools for modding a game? That's right, nothing.

    1. Re:Incoherent summary by MrBogard · · Score: 1

      It's only related in that specific example, and I admit I could have been more clear. I knew this was a little messy, and frankly I'm surprised (and delighted) to see it on the front page. The relationship is: 70 levels of perks and attachments are difficult to balance in an actual clan scenario. Mods allowed communities to build new rule sets and rebalance the game around the idea of competition. Without those tools, you're forced to play it their way. This isn't necessarily bad, especially for public play, but it puts a lot of pressure on the way clannies have been doing things for years. I'm not saying that we shouldn't have to adapt to new trends in game design, I'm just worried that game designers aren't trying to please their core fanbases while expanding their markets with these trends.

  7. Enough of FPS? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well. It seems reasonable to me after decade of playing FPS. You know there are only 2 types of FPS. "Shoot everything that moves" and "Shoot everything".

  8. There will allways be Quake 3 CPMA by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

    Or Defrag.
    Nothing to optimize on something that is perfect.

    Defrag in perfection: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2hpaKphOtI
    CPMA in perfection: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4zEge_iWPk

    --
    Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
  9. WHAT by minginqunt · · Score: 0, Redundant

    The removal of mod tools is because Infinity Ward are a bunch of PC-hating cocktards.

    What that has to do with "RPG elements" is presumably left as an exercise to the reader?

    (Also, Bioshock is a terrible example, since it's a spiritual successor to a legendary RPG, System Shock 2. In many ways, Bioshock was SS2 dumbed down with more 'FPS elements'. Now shush.)

    1. Re:WHAT by KDR_11k · · Score: 3, Interesting

      More importantly because they want to sell us DLC without competition. Not that that's a real reason for removing dedicated servers (and neither is console gaming) since Section 8 has dedicated servers, DLC and a console version.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    2. Re:WHAT by Ihmhi · · Score: 1

      There were plenty of games back in the day that didn't have mod tools available for them. They got modded anyway by inventive programmers. It'll happen with MW2 soon enough.

      I wonder how "unauthorized" modding of a AAA title will stand up in the modern era.

    3. Re:WHAT by tepples · · Score: 1

      I wonder how "unauthorized" modding of a AAA title will stand up in the modern era.

      Google bnetd to see how it will stand up.

    4. Re:WHAT by Ihmhi · · Score: 1

      I'm well aware of bnetd. That wasn't a mod of a game, that was emulation of Battle.net.

      Although I think things like bnetd are fine, Blizzard argued that without a check for CD Keys (which only they had), pirated copies could be played over bnetd. Disregarding the ridiculously overreaching EULA (as all EULAs are wont to be), nothing about bnetd in and of itself was illegal as far as I'm concerned. But Blizzard used the piracy angle to essentially wipe out a competitor.

      Mods require that you own the original software because a mod, at the very least, uses the game's engine and some of the code. Many make use of in-game assets as well. They're legally protected for the most part because they're distributed and created for free.

      The modding community and the bnetd situation are like apples and bowling balls.

  10. Love by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Interesting

    I believe that every game has a spark of creativity that cannot be denied.

    Some devteams work for ten years or more on the same game... improving it, polishing it, patching it, rereleasing it under new technology, imagining, dreaming, hoping, sketching...

    This is love, right?

    I think so. I think it's eternal love; like a "soul."

    1. Re:Love by malkavian · · Score: 1

      The team behind "Duke Nukem Forever" must really love the game..

    2. Re:Love by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 1

      Well, some people spend ten years in a living hell of a marriage filled with bickering, friction, conflict, betrayal and sometimes physical conflict.

      Now, even in these cases, there is sometimes still what could be called "love" there; but the end product is not something others would consider very beautiful.

      --
      May the Maths Be with you!
  11. What a ramble... by MikeRT · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I didn't see anything in there that was actually a cause-effect relationship between the "RPG elements" and taking away from the games.

    Personally, I love the blending of genres. Now we get games like Mass Effect which combine action similar to Gears of War with a real RPG feel.

  12. bazooka by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    same diff

  13. Bioshock? by FTWinston · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Surely Bioshock should count as RPG elements creeping out of the game, rather than into it? Compare it to System Shock 2, which it is supposedly a "spiritual successor" to. Which has lots more RPG elements? Its the one more convincing and compelling story.

    [Grumpy rant]
    Every time I play bioshock, even when I force myself, I get bored with it and eventually give up. Maybe its just me, and I'm well aware of all the people that go on about how great it is, but it never felt compelling, and things like pretty unbelievable characters (that artist who froze people sticks in my mind), and the freakin cheap cop out of little sisters leaving teddy bears for you usually quickly ruin the immersion (and fun) for me. I still play Shock 2 however, even though I know the location of every scare.
    Ah damn, does the immenant release of Bioshock 2 mean I'll have to stop referring to Shock 2 as ... Shock 2?
    [/Grumpy rant]

    1. Re:Bioshock? by Nesman64 · · Score: 1

      I still play Shock 2 however, even though I know the location of every scare.

      Where did you get a pre-release copy of BioShock 2? Hook me up!

      --
      coffee | nose > keyboard
    2. Re:Bioshock? by Jesus_666 · · Score: 1

      You are aware that "Shock 2" has referred to System Shock 2 since the beginning of the SS2 intro?

      Besides, they're makiung a followup to BioShock 2? I wonder what they will remove next. Probably turning and strafing; three dimensions are far too complex for the Halo generation.

      --
      USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
  14. Just for once! by wernox1987 · · Score: 1

    Can be stop complaining about the dedicated server thing? Honestly, I think IW just wanted to make a console game and didn't want to put the effort into a PC release. Plain and simple, no conspiracy. Inspite of the issues with glitching, I've had a great deal of fun playing MW2 on my 360 as I'm sure PS3 owners have as well.

    1. Re:Just for once! by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      Console games can have dedicated servers too so that's not a real reason.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    2. Re:Just for once! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... Honestly, I think IW just wanted to make a console game and didn't want to put the effort into a PC release.

      There's the nugget of truth. I was just thinking about this yesterday. PC versions require considerable extra work to be done on the game for PC specific features. Things like text chat on multiplayer games, all sorts of configuration menus for the various options PC users expect, testing under multiple hardware configurations, making and testing installers, etc., etc.

      So game makers will go ahead and make their console versions and then do the minimum necessary to add the bits required for PC versions. This results in the PC version typically being a shitty experience for the user.

      Look at Borderlands for example. The PC version came out a week after the console versions. This was alleged to be for "optimization" of the PC version. This was, of course, complete bullshit. PC version was in no way optimized and had enough craptacular flaws to make PC users realize that Gearbox Software had worked to make the console versions and then in a haphazard, slapdash fashion bolted on the necessary PC bits.

  15. too late MW2=one of best selling games of all time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's far far too late to complain about anything with MW2. Its become something like the 4th best selling game of all time (looking at console sales), and has made a butt load of money as everyone rushes to buy an inferior sequel. Its selling much faster than the previous one.

    Remember how companies like id said they would be watching to see if its ok to remove features like dedicated servers? The answer is yes. Now everyone will see they can do things like this and get away with it, so they will keep doing it.

  16. Independent games by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It is surprising how many threads on /. I feel the need to answer with the two simple words: 'Dwarf Fortress'. The words 'indy games' are a more general way to convey the same sentiment. So, if the failings and misdemeanours of the monolithic entertainment industry monopoly cause it to founder and collapse under it's own weight... the only concievable response I can think of is to laugh long and hard. You want customiseable games? You want to be treated as a consumer of art and not a generic consumer of products of EA games and others designed to cater for 14-18 year old social misfits with personality problems and rich parents? Well it's still there, never went away, never will. Every time something is corrupted something new and wonderful is created, you just have to know where to look.

  17. Summary unrelated to Headline? by Dilligent · · Score: 1

    I don't understand at all how the summary is related to the headline. What do RPG elements have to do with that? I would presume that RPG influences in a game don't stop anyone from making a mod for it? That clearly can't have been the reason why infinity ward did what they have done.

  18. What's the problem? by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

    There is an easy way to remove all RPG elements - use cheats.

    --
    "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
  19. the dumbing down of video games, by Simulant · · Score: 4, Insightful

    IMHO, RPGs, are the most time consuming type of game you can play and serve primarily to feed the the player's obsessive-compulsive instincts for very little, if any, tangible benefit. You basically run around behaving repetitively & collecting as much virtual crap as you can. Your reward is "experience" which can only be taken advantage of with further gameplay. I find the crack analogies to be very compelling.

    It's no wonder that game companies want to extend the model to other game genres. They want you to keep playing & paying.

    Granted, many games cater to your inner, OCD afflicted hunter-gatherer but few genres keep you on the hook as purposefully and for as long as a RPG will.

    The RPGificataion of the COD series started with the addition of "Perks" & levels. I found this to be immediately detrimental to the game. The number of custom servers was reduced dramatically. Few people wanted to run an 'un-ranked' server despite the fact that all the serious players would rank up in a few weeks, after which time experience was essentially meaningless.

    This led to thousands of generic servers with more or less the same set of rules and levels.

    Yet players clung on, even ranking up all over again for the ridiculous "prestige" levels. The erosion of gameplay had begun, it's now less about the game play and more about collecting meaningless, virtual experience points.

    Now throw in the massive growth of consoles and you can see where this is going.

    Millions of lemmings competing for bragging rights over virtual perks. No thanks.

    I will even go so far as to say this is bad for IT.
    I got into this field because of video games. I learned a lot about computers & networks because games, the modification of games, the modification of hardware to make the games run, (and yes, even the obtaining of games for free from dubious sources), were a big incentive for me to figure out out the damn things worked. I wonder what kind of incentive the average young X-Box owner has.

    1. Re:the dumbing down of video games, by lbbros · · Score: 1

      IMHO, RPGs, are the most time consuming type of game you can play and serve primarily to feed the the player's obsessive-compulsive instincts for very little, if any, tangible benefit.

      90% of the games I buy are RPGs. Not only because I like the genre, but also because they tend to last more than other genres. If I pay a lot of money to get a game, I expect it to last at least two weeks of 1-2hr sessions per day (and this is becomning increasingly rare with titles that last 8 hours or less...). If it's less, it's not worth it. And I don't care that much for the multiplayer aspect.

      --
      A CC-licensed illustrated horror novel
    2. Re:the dumbing down of video games, by Veretax · · Score: 1

      Aren't all games repetitive? FPS: grab weapons shoot at opposition till you die, rinse then repeat RTS: Build your base, build units, defend against enemy incursions, then when your army is big enough rush the enemy base Card games: Get hand dealt, evaluate possibilities try to maximize highest scoring in each round/hand, repeat. Racing Games: Configure car, drive to the front, try to stay in the front. Even Puzzle games can be repetitive.

    3. Re:the dumbing down of video games, by dangitman · · Score: 1

      I will even go so far as to say this is bad for IT. I got into this field because of video games. I learned a lot about computers & networks because games, the modification of games, the modification of hardware to make the games run, (and yes, even the obtaining of games for free from dubious sources), were a big incentive for me to figure out out the damn things worked. I wonder what kind of incentive the average young X-Box owner has.

      Wouldn't that be a good thing for IT?

      IT would be better if fewer people were in IT just because they like games. After all, IT has little to do with games, and too many IT employees waste time at work talking about or playing games.

      --
      ... and then they built the supercollider.
    4. Re:the dumbing down of video games, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Keep paying - yes, but that's not a bad thing. I like to play MMOs and I'll front the small fee of 15 bucks a month. I quit playing MMOs for 2 months and I bought over $200 of single player games that have nowhere near the longevity as some MMOs. While some like to think that MMOs are a money sink, its actually saving me money by keeping me away from those single serving $60 games which are usually shelved after a week or two.

    5. Re:the dumbing down of video games, by Totenglocke · · Score: 1

      IMHO, RPGs, are the most time consuming type of game you can play and serve primarily to feed the the player's obsessive-compulsive instincts for very little, if any, tangible benefit. You basically run around behaving repetitively & collecting as much virtual crap as you can. Your reward is "experience" which can only be taken advantage of with further gameplay. I find the crack analogies to be very compelling.

      Sounds like you've only played action-RPG's or MMORPG's. A real RPG (Baldur's Gate, Morrowind, games like that) are about telling a story. As the story progresses your character learns new things and grows (just like in real life). Where's the feeling of accomplishment in Baldur's Gate if you start off from the beginning at level 40 and can destroy all enemies in the blink of an eye? However, watching your character slowly grow over the course of the series and become stronger and stronger so that they can fight the epic battles, THAT gives you a feeling of accomplishment.

      To use a car analogy, it would be like if race car drivers were automatically the best drivers in the world the second they put on the racing suit - there's no accomplishment there. However, since they have to train and work hard to become the best, there's a feeling of accomplishment.

      --
      "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
    6. Re:the dumbing down of video games, by BJ_Covert_Action · · Score: 1

      I wonder what kind of incentive the average young X-Box owner has.

      With the continual failure of hardware and the increasing progression towards the, 'we are going to milk you, your roomates, your wife, and your kids for every single dime they can manage,' business model, my wager is that the young Xbox owner is being increasingly incentivized to burn his beloved Microsoft product and fine something more open and less restrictive. I know that when Xbox Live started moving towards the trend of guest players not being allowed to be hosted by a single paid account, I immediately began begrudging Microsoft all over again.

    7. Re:the dumbing down of video games, by Simulant · · Score: 1

      Sounds like you've only played action-RPG's or MMORPG's. A real RPG (Baldur's Gate, Morrowind, games like that) are about telling a story

      I cut my teeth on pen & paper RPGs so I know what you're are saying, and you have a point. I'm not saying RPGs are not fun, not rewarding, or even that there aren't certain benefits to be gained for some people. I think that real learning can take place in RPGs.

      However, I still feel that, in current form(s), they are a huge time sink with little real life enriching pay off for most people considering the amount of time invested, as well as generally being more addictive in the clinical sense than any other video game genre. Just my opinion though.... Some people thrive on these games and I'm happy for them. But when corporate publishers start putting the useless but addictive bits into every other genre, it gets a little worrisome. Kind of like tobacco companies and their 'additives' way back when.... (yeah I know... the analogy is a bit extreme but you get the idea)

      As for the feeling of accomplishment after "working hard and training", you might want to check out the "Addicted to Fake Accomplishment" article (by a hard core MMORPG player) that someone else posted in this thread. I thought it was an interesting way to put it.

    8. Re:the dumbing down of video games, by Totenglocke · · Score: 1

      As for the feeling of accomplishment after "working hard and training", you might want to check out the "Addicted to Fake Accomplishment" article (by a hard core MMORPG player) that someone else posted in this thread. I thought it was an interesting way to put it.

      They are fake accomplishments, which is why I specifically was talking about single-player RPG's with a defined story. I don't get the people who chase the "you played 100 hours!" types of achievements...

      --
      "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
    9. Re:the dumbing down of video games, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Spoken like a 0 Prestige.

    10. Re:the dumbing down of video games, by brkello · · Score: 1

      Tell me what type of game you like and I will tell you in what ways it is time consuming and basically makes you run around behaving repetitively and collecting virtual crap. FPS, RTS, puzzle games...whatever it is it is all repetitive crap. It just happens that you prefer your repetitive, virtual collection of crap from of entertainment over RPGs.

      You like to delude yourself to think everyone else is a lemming. You are just as much a lemming as anyone else.

      --
      Support a great indie game: http://www.abaddon360.com
  20. Infinity Ward can do -anything- they want... by anomnomnomymous · · Score: 1

    If Infinity Ward are so insistent on improving the variety of our experiences, they don't have to do it at the expense of the experience that many of us already love.

    With the game almost having made 1 billion dollars, it seems they can pretty much do anything they want: The people will buy it anyways.
    For myself, I've decided to boycot the game as I don't agree with dedicated servers, and absence of player-created content. I wish only more people would actually hold to their (announced) boycot...

    As for the RPG elements (which I think is an improvement in some FPS games), I think this mainly has to do with creating the same 'addictive' elements that MMORPGs have: As long as you keep dangling that carrot in front of the players, they'll keep playing.

    --
    When you shoot a mime, do you use a silencer?
  21. Dead Horse by foo+fighter · · Score: 1

    Modern Warfare 2 does not have dedicated servers. It will never have dedicated servers.

    Modern Warfare 2 does not have official mod tools. It will never have official mod tools.

    Modern Warfare 2 has made, so far, over $1 Billion in revenue. That is roughly $800 Million over it's production budget.

    Please, kindly, STFU and GTFO. This debate is over.

    You haven't added anything interesting to the discussion by noting FPSs have added leveling up to the multiplayer experience.

    --
    obviously no deficiencies vs. no obvious deficiencies
    1. Re:Dead Horse by kalirion · · Score: 1

      I wonder how much of that $1billion has been from the PC side....

      On the other hand, throughout Steam's humongous holiday sale, the undiscounted MW2 had remained high in the Top Sellers list. I guess even the PC gamers have spoken.

  22. Weird games comming up.. by Qcaze · · Score: 1

    "RPG elements are creeping into game genres that we never imagined they would" - I really hope the such elements won't creep into my F1 simulator.

    1. Re:Weird games comming up.. by kick6 · · Score: 1

      I really hope the such elements won't creep into my F1 simulator.

      If you're playing the role of an F1 driver in, say, a "career mode" I don't see how these elements aren't there already.

    2. Re:Weird games comming up.. by tepples · · Score: 1

      Of course a racing simulator would have RPG elements: as your pit crew complete more races, they become more competent.

  23. Counterexample: DoTA by Tei · · Score: 1

    RPG and pro-Gamming or e-Sport can work togueter. There are lots of examples, from DoTA, WoW Arena (and games with "WoW Arenas" design, maybe not wow itself because is a RPG design for PVE).

    Adding RPG to a FPS don't ruin pro-gamming. MW2: P2P networking and the un-ability to manage a game to be fair does.

    --

    -Woof woof woof!

  24. Different games for Different people? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Maybe all games don't have to appeal to all people. Is it really a problem if MW2 isn't the favorite game of the "competitive" crowd? People who want to run their dedicated servers with mods can do that with a different game, while people who want the controlled experience that MW2 provides can play MW2.

  25. Don't like how the games are being made? by CFBMoo1 · · Score: 1

    Vote with your wallet.

    --
    ~~ Behold the flying cow with a rail gun! ~~
  26. Keep dreaming by mister_playboy · · Score: 1

    You must be one of those guys who pre-ordered Duke Nukem Forever, right?

    --
    Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law ::: Love is the law, love under will
  27. The other way around by timftbf · · Score: 1

    I'm more bothered by FPS elements creeping into RPGs. Prime offender in my eyes was Oblivion, which required far too much in the way of twitch-shooter ability to play to be any fun at all - I still haven't tried Mass Effect (bought, but yet unplayed) or Fallout 3 to see if either of these titles as more playable for me.

    Not saying everything has to be turn-based - although it's still very much my preference, NWN-style "close to real-time but pausable" works, as does anything with time limits, action points etc (some Final Fantasy turn-based variations, Eternal Sonata, etc). Anything where the *character's* ability to hit things is determined by *my* dexterity with the right thumb stick, in an FPS style, is a complete non-starter for me, though.

    1. Re:The other way around by MistrBlank · · Score: 1

      Fallout 3 is better. The pipboy basically makes it so you can wait out the time to trigger your attacks, almost like a turn based approach. Once it is triggered, all of the attacks that you select from it are set off one at a time. This allows you to run around, dodge and block attacks while waiting for it to recharge and launch your next calculated attack, or... you can go the FPS approach and swing on your own.

    2. Re:The other way around by Logical+Zebra · · Score: 1

      The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion was still an RPG at heart, though. Fallout 3 is not an RPG. It is a first-person shooter with a lot of RPG elements. It's still a good game, though, but it is impossible to get through it without heavily developing your character's combat skills. In the original 2 Fallout titles, you could theoretically beat the game without a single battle.

      --
      I have a bad feeling about this...
    3. Re:The other way around by Useful+Wheat · · Score: 1

      I'm going to need to say you're wrong here. Being able to physically fire the bow added a huge level of immersion for me. Particularly with poisons, the sneak attack 4x bonus, and the zoom at level 50. Sneaking up on a target, poisoning the arrow, and then gently sliding it into the back of his head was a sublime thrill.

      I was really disappointed that this experience is totally lost in Dragon Age. You hit auto attack, and your character fires arrows as fast as they particularly feel like it. They hit if their hit dice says they will. Thanks to the floating camera you don't even really look at enemies when you kill them. Red glowing dots appear on your radar, you hit 'A' to auto attack, and your character attacks him just like any lifeless marine in star craft.

      And for reference? I hate the huntsman in Team Fortress 2.

    4. Re:The other way around by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      Mass Effect is the same as NWN...you can have auto-pausing under combat each round. Actually, it's closer to KOTOR style-leveling, if you've played that, including the 'three starting classes, and three more classes later'. Note all three of those games are by Bioware.

      There's also Dragon Age, which just came out from Bioware, which is the same way. If you like NWN's RPG combat style, just keep buying Bioware games. (And don't forget NWN2, which is not by Bioware, but keeps the same system.)

      Fallout 3, OTOH, is a FPS with RPG leveling. It is near identical to Oblivion, except that Fallout 3 has a 'pause the game, target someone, and shoot them' screen called VATS. Which is not based on round, but on the action points you mentioned, which slowly refill. In any moderately difficult battle, you'll run out, and have to shoot manually.

      You can, however, improve your character to the point that you're killing 75% of the things you need to kill simply by sneaking around, pulling up VATS, and headshotting them.

      Put it this way: I'm a fan of RPGs and adventure games, and not so much a twitch gamer. I didn't enjoy Oblivion, I get a few hours in and I lose interest in beating the crap out of yet another mook so I can level, but I have played and beaten Fallout 3...three times. (Which is a near record for me.) And all the DLCs but one.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    5. Re:The other way around by Fallingcow · · Score: 1

      Plus, in the first two games, you played a customized, unique(ish) character. Unless you were a hyper-obsessed power gamer with a shitload of free time or knew some sort of exploit, you probably weren't going to be able to specialize in more than 5 skills out of 20 or so, so you had to make decisions about how to develop your character and what sort of person they would be.

      Fallout 3 imported too much of the Morrowind/Oblivion style of making the character godlike at everything by the end game. Hell, I think I'd damn near maxed out everything in F3 by the mid way point of the main story. That, what you mentioned, and the smallness of the world (where the hell is anything remotely as large and interesting as the New Reno/Vault City/NCR triangle, for instance?) were what ruined F3 as a Fallout game, IMO.

    6. Re:The other way around by Gravatron · · Score: 1

      Fallout never felt like an FPS to me, too much dice rolling behind the scene. The state were damn important in that one. Until you got your firearms up into the high levels, you couldn't hit the side of a barn.

      Like the elder scrolls though, mods vastly improved the experience, both graphically and in terms of balance, weapon selection, etc.

    7. Re:The other way around by timftbf · · Score: 1

      I'm going to need to say you're wrong here. Being able to physically fire the bow added a huge level of immersion for me. Particularly with poisons, the sneak attack 4x bonus, and the zoom at level 50. Sneaking up on a target, poisoning the arrow, and then gently sliding it into the back of his head was a sublime thrill.

      No, I'm right, but right for me - and I do realise with how popular FPSes are that I'm very much in a minority. If I have to move with one stick at the same time as using the other stick to try and make some targeting element and my intended target coincide, in real-time, I'm not interested in the game. I'm no good at it, I don't enjoy it, and yes, the two things do feed off each other in a downwards spiral.

      I was really disappointed that this experience is totally lost in Dragon Age. You hit auto attack, and your character fires arrows as fast as they particularly feel like it. They hit if their hit dice says they will.

      See, that's exactly what I'm after in an RPG. My character has skills, I provide the guiding intelligence telling them how and when to use those skills - just as I would in a pen-and-paper RPG. Whether they succeed in a particular activity is down to their skills and the fall of the dice. Whether they succeed in their larger goal is down (at least in part) to my skills in decision-making.

    8. Re:The other way around by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      Yeah, it never felt like an FPS to me.

      However, in my case, that's why I liked it. Heh.

      I think Fallout 3 is probably the best FPS/RPG there is. They managed to merge RPG skills into a fairly fun good FPS in a useful way.

      Which is, of course, only relevant if you like that mixed genre. I can see why people who like straight FPSs would dislike, as, yes, a lot of skill was replaced with luck.

      For those of us who've never had a lot of skill at FPSs, though, it was pretty nice.

      Oblivion tried to do the same thing (Or, rather, it tried to do it first.) but I thought it failed...but, then again, I'm not a big fan of melee combat, and I couldn't seem to get very good at ranged combat in it.

      So it was a pretty unsatisfying experience, especially when combined with the confusing and near nonsensical leveling system. It's sad, because I like the premise of 'What you use during gaining a level should be discounted when you gain the next level', that actual used skill should be increased faster.

      Sadly, the way Oblivion did it, was basing leveling on each skill, and often required you to grind a skill before leveling, and often you got an advantage by not leveling. Also, because leveling was based on skills, you had to make sure your major skill weren't skills you used all the time, or you'd level too fast...it was crazy, and made no sense to me. Perhaps this was some 'Elder Scrolls' thing, but this was the first Elder Scrolls game I played, and I couldn't figure it out.

      Hell, I read 'strategy guides' before making a character, and thought I selected right...but by the time I was level 5 or so, I was regularly getting beat by single enemies. Apparently, I had screwed up and wasn't powerful enough for that level. Now, with RPGs, you do need to level a character in a sane manner, or you will start getting beaten by scaled enemies, but I've never had problems with that in any other game.

      A much more sane way to do that would be something like 'Every time you use a sword 100 times, you get an extra sword point next level, up to 1000, at which point you get half a point, etc' or something. That would actually make sense. But Oblivion managed to take that promising concept and screw it up.

      Comparing the two, and how close they are, it's honestly amazing to me that Fallout 3 is right up there in my 'top five games of all time', and my 'game to get stuck on a desert island with', and Oblivion is at least in the bottom 25%.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
  28. it's all about controlling the market by Aceticon · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Removing of Mod Tools is all about controlling shelf-life for games and monopolising the market for extensions/enhancements for those game.

    It's all a business decision - outside MMOs, the current way that Game Producers (want to) do business is:

    • Milk a franchise for as long as you can by periodically releasing newer versions of the same game
    • Have extra post-sale revenue by selling extras for the game (DLC)

    In that sense, user mods are "bad for business" since they:

    • Extend the life of an existing version of a game with free content, thus reducing the appeal for gamers to buy newer versions
    • Provide free new content for the game which competes with the paid for content that the Game Produces wants to sell

    Games having more RPG elements does relate to the decision of removing Mod Tools in the sense that for RPGs the enjoyement of the game is also related to it's content (as in, zones to explore, items to collect, monsters to fight and levels/abilities to unlock), and thus:

    • In single-player/social-light games, user enjoyment decreases fast once all content has been explored. Without user mods, this means that the lifetime of a game is solelly under the control of the Game Producer
    • A more content heavy type of game is also a game with more opportunity for things like sales of game items, zones and levels. No user mods mean that the Game Producer has a monopoly on this

    So I do agree with the TFA that no Mod Tools and more RPG elements are correlated, although maybe not in the way they see it.

    1. Re:it's all about controlling the market by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1
      They almost have a point, but they're missing something important: the only reason that a lot of people bought Half Life originally was for Counterstrike. People who enjoy modding games aren't going to go away if you dn't support them, they'll just start writing mods for your competitor's games. If they stop supporting mods too, then they'll write mods for open source games (and, yes, there are a few good, hackable, open source FPS games, but their graphics tend to be a couple of generations behind the state of the art). Then people will be able to play the mods without buying your game. They may buy your competitor's game, or they may not buy anything.

      Mod support is a great business idea because it lets other people give away products that require your product to work. It's a perfect case of commoditising a complementary market. Your mod tool license can prevent people from charging for the mods, so they are investing effort in making your product better.

      Of course, this is only true for companies that wrote the game engine. Companies licensing something like ID Tech 4 and just adding their own content are basically mod authors anyway, they're just paying a large premium to Id to be allowed to charge for their mod.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  29. At least there's less bitching by Mantrid · · Score: 1

    One positive, though I miss visiting regular servers, is that you don't log into some new server only to find all these arbitrary limitations on what equipment you can use. (No martyrdom here pal, oh and no "noob tube", oh and if you kill us with anything else we'll ban that too...)

  30. Well, if people don't like it... by Pojut · · Score: 1

    ...then go back to CoD4. Hell, that's what Joel Gardiner did IRL...if it's good enough for the cueball it's good enough for anyone, I say.

  31. Money is all that matters by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    All major gaming companies are trying to add rpg elements to move there games beyond just another 3d shooter. Clearly customers are happy with that, considering the reception of MW2 and others as well.
                  As far as removing the ability to mod games as well as local network games, companies know that having those features extends the value of the game for years to come by giving gamers a reason to keep playing the same game they already bought. To the gaming companies that means you will keep playing older games and spend less money on newer games. That is the last thing they want. What they want is for you to play a new game for a limited period of time, get sick of it, be unable to mod it or play locally, then buy the next new game they make. Online gameplay is fine with them especially on the xbox because you are already paying to play online. These companies are here to make money and don't care about long term replay value.In fact the opposite. If you look at World of Warcraft, blizzard basically dropped work on every other game for the last 4 years because they were making so much money on WOW. THey are finally now moving on some new games like startcraft 2 and diablo 3, but that's not where the real money comes from. If all the gaming companies in the world could, they would make all there games online only and require monthly payments to play. Of course the companies conveniently use piracy as the reason for this. But pirates create private servers for WOW and hack games to get what they want. Piracy is a scapegoat to cover there greed.

  32. RPG elements? Where? by YourExperiment · · Score: 4, Informative

    RPG elements are creeping into game genres that we never imagined they would

    No they're not. Games like Deus Ex, like System Shock and System Shock 2 had RPG elements - games that were truly a clever blend of genres that worked perfectly. Shooting action along with a bit of thought too.

    The dumbing down started with consoles and Deus Ex 2. It was completed in BioShock. Awesome graphics, great atmosphere, an interesting story, but hardly any RPG elements to speak of. Any trace of RPG elements in (non-RPG) games these days are so watered down that they just dilute the fun of the shooter, rather than adding any element of challenge of their own.

    1. Re:RPG elements? Where? by Akira+Kogami · · Score: 1

      Games like Modern Warfare 2 have RPG-like progression, leveling, skill upgrades and skill builds and all that in multiplayer. Which is really a shame. Competitive FPS games are no fun when it's not an equal playing ground and players can be at an advantage because of how much they play and not their skill.

    2. Re:RPG elements? Where? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If I had mod points... there are no specific RPG elements to these games,

    3. Re:RPG elements? Where? by mjwx · · Score: 0

      It was completed in BioShock. Awesome graphics, great atmosphere, an interesting story,

      The story was ripped straight from System Shock 2. Most of the game was except they removed the parts that couldn't work properly on consoles without the users ADHD kicking in such as the levelling and inventory system. I liked the levelling system in SS2, you find cyber modules or are given them for completing a quest rather then standard old skill points. They should have done this in Bioshock but doing that would have killed it for the console players.

      Just to illustrate my point about BS's story being SS2's story:

      Mutants -> Splicers
      Cyborgs -> Big daddies
      Implants -> Plasmids
      Nanites -> Adam
      Polito/Shodan -> Atlas/Fontain
      Diego -> Ryan
      Delacroix -> Tennenbaum

      Go through (_)TRAINING/(_)PLANE CRASH and get to (_)SPACESHIP/(_)UNDERWATER CITY. (_)POLITO/(_)ATLAS contacts you and tells you something has gone horribly wrong. Do some tasks for (_)POLITO/(_)ATLAS and eventually find out that (_)POLITO/(_)ATLAS is (_)SHODAN/(_)FONTAIN who is really the games villain. Find out that (_)DIEGO/(_)RYAN is not the villain you thought them to be. Go and kill (_)SHODAN/(_)FONTAIN with a little help from (_)DELACROIX/(_)TENNENBAUM.

      My problem is that I could have overlooked BS being a clone of SS2 with a steampunk setting if it were actually a decent copy of SS2. Instead it was dumbed down and annoying.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
  33. They post anything on this site nowadays. by xmousex · · Score: 1

    Especially if it has a few buzzwords thrown in. Blah Blah Blah MW2 Blah. This really is a troll article. And the author makes no sense. RPG = no modding. Its not just misinformed, its in incapability to communicate by the author. He is bugged by something, but doesnt have the right terms or background apparently to actually say what he really means. Let me help a little: no modding = no modding.

    How do we vote articles like this off the site?

    Oh nevermind. His page was just suspended. LOL

    1. Re:They post anything on this site nowadays. by MrBogard · · Score: 1

      This is a troll post. I did not explain the relationship between mods and RPG elements sufficiently, but there is one. I actually state it pretty clearly, but clearly don't emphasize my point well enough. The removal of mod tools means that clans can't play a rebalanced game without progression. I am sorry. That is only a single example however, and hardly what the entire bitchy rant is all about. I'll take the criticism to heart though, so thanks anyway!

  34. Non-sequitur by JohnnyBGod · · Score: 1

    You can have all the RPG elements you like and still have a moddable game with dedicated servers. Making that claim and including TF2 on the list makes it sound like the author did little or no research.

    1. Re:Non-sequitur by MrBogard · · Score: 1

      I have to wonder if having the bit about MW2 in the description didn't damn this entry. I admit it's not the most well written thing I've ever done, but I'm pretty clearly just using MW2 as a single example. I did not imply that Team Fortress 2 lacked a mod community or dedicated servers. I'm sorry I wasn't more clear from the get-go, and wish I had avoided the subject of MW2 all together. It wouldn't make it perfect, but maybe it would make my point more clear. I also realize that there message that is there is wishy washy at best. Thanks for the comments anyway.

  35. Really? What are RPG elements? by crossmr · · Score: 1

    I hate to break it to the writer and most of the clowns who parrot buzz words in the industry but a roleplaying game isn't defined by stats, swords, levels, or anything other mechanic. Mechanics are separate from the genre. One of the few gems to come out of a reviewer was from a fellow named Desslock. He correctly defined what a roleplaying game was and unfortunately too many people were busy trying to attach RPG to every game going in an attempt to give them some sort of claim to legitimacy. I'm paraphrasing because it was quite a few years ago, but:
    "A roleplaying game is a game where the players actions and choices have a meaningful and lasting effect on the game world and that world changes as a response to it"

    He also pointed out at that time that there were few if any games which actually even approached being a genuine roleplaying game. Even today there isn't. The only thing that really has a chance to actually be a roleplaying game are sandbox games. The player needs the freedom to make choices and those choices need to have effects. They need to be permanent and the world itself needs to change. A game like Simcity (4 or earlier, not that latest atrocity) is far closer to being a genuine roleplaying game than some of the games in recent years full of swords and magic. Certainly much more than say..WoW.

    A fairly linear shooter which adds stats, or levels doesn't include "RPG elements" because none of those things have anything to do with making a game an RPG. The game is an RPG if the player can affect and change the world with choices, not if he can pick up a better sword, or swing it slightly better. You have to play a role, but that role has to have meaning within the game world. All of those things are completely independent of the mechanics. Yes, game makers often try to bundle those things together, but in reality simply adding a sword, or hit points to a game doesn't make it a roleplaying game. It makes it whatever it is with a sword and hit points.

    Every time I see some hack writer talking about "RPG elements" I feel like asking them if they think their Cobalt has Ferrari elements because it has doors and wheels.

    1. Re:Really? What are RPG elements? by MrBogard · · Score: 1

      Bioware defines the four pillars of RPG design as: *progression*, combat, and story telling. But what do they know about roll playing video games, right?

    2. Re:Really? What are RPG elements? by jgtg32a · · Score: 1

      What's the 4th?

    3. Re:Really? What are RPG elements? by crossmr · · Score: 1

      Bioware defines the four pillars of RPG design as: *progression*, combat, and story telling. But what do they know about roll playing video games, right?

      You think it is a silly question. But is it? You correctly identified their genre though. I highlighted that for you. There is a difference between roll playing games and roleplaying games. Most CRPGs are roll playing games. They're not roleplaying games. Including most of bioware's games. Great fantastic games that have taken huge chunks of my life, but they aren't really roleplaying games. Yes, I know. Blasphemy.

      To look at it further a roleplaying game is a game in which you play a role. Obviously. But that could be said about any game. I could claim space invaders was a roleplaying game because I "played a role" when I played it. But I think you'd find most people probably wouldn't classify it as a roleplaying game. Why? because the role has no meaning. Bioware may make their RPGs With those four pillars (interestingly you only listed 3, is the fourth pillar ninjas?) but you can have all of those things and still not have a roleplaying game. You can have roleplaying games without combat, without story, and unless the progression is done right, it doesn't make it an RPG. A roleplaying is all about having the role actually meaning something in the game. What you do and how you do has to actually have some effect. I don't really count getting a better sword to fighter better enemies in a scripted fashion as having an effect.

      Bringing supplies to an area, reinforcing it, securing it and building an outpost and creating an economy is having an effect on a gameworld. If you choose to play that kind of role, it does something. Even if there was no story or a terrible one, what you did actually meant something in the game and the game world which was on going. Something MMORPGs basically fail at. They're so static it is sickening. Even if you had combat there is no requirement that combat be managed by a spreadsheet and require a degree in accounting. Let's not forget Amber the diceless RPG. RPGs are about choices and how those choices affect you, your character, the world, etc.

      in MMORPGs those choices do nothing. The world never changes. The choices are frankly meaningless. People can sit around and free form "roleplay" all day, but they could do that in a forum. Unless the developers actually include tools to allow that roleplaying to affect the world in some meaningful and lasting way it is the equivalent of writing a backstory and spouting one liners while playing space invaders.

      in most single player RPGs they're often linear. So while you progress through the story, you're doing so on a set path and your choices are either to do it or turn off the game. There is no real freedom to make choices that actually impact the story or what is genuinely going on in the game through their play. Even most of the games which feature an angel/psychotic killer choice system are just as linear. You move from the same scenario to the next just sometimes with a different cut scene.

      They're great games. They're just not RPGs. Why don't we have more of those games? because they're a pain to make. They're a pain to write a story for. If you actually give the player freedom to impact the game world in meaningful and lasting ways, you have no idea what exactly he's going to do. you can create a system to generate generic story bites like those that appear at the end of some games to give you some final ending based on your characters deeds, but its hard to craft a good story around that kind of a game. The game needs to be genuinely living. There basically can't be a "main" quest. There could be many things going on in the world. Various factions with various goals, but it would be a giant sandbox that you could play in and shape the world to your liking. Make that, and you've got a genuine roleplaying game. Anything else is a game masquerading as something it isn't for whatever reason.

    4. Re:Really? What are RPG elements? by cptnapalm · · Score: 1

      Your mother.

      ... sorry ...

    5. Re:Really? What are RPG elements? by jgtg32a · · Score: 1

      Thank you, I was going to post the same but in a much less articulate fashion.
      JRPGs are not RPGs they are adventure game with Stat based combat. Don't get me wrong I love JRPGs, but they aren't RPGs any decisions that you make are largely irrelevant, to the overall story.
      You might want to look into Alpha Protocol, its a "spy story" made by the some of Black Isle guys, so at least the story and writing will be amazing. It uses the Mass Effect engine (but don't under estimate BI's ability to introduce bugs). Most of the talks about the game are how you interact with the NPCs and the "waves" that your interactions will have on other NPCs (you shoot a guys friend he's going to be mad).
       
      The most interesting part is it was criticized for not have a lot of RPG elements like Mass Effect. That leads me to believe that they made a splinter cell type game with a boat load of character interactions, that actually matter. It was also pushed back so it looks like they may be making it more "RPGish"

    6. Re:Really? What are RPG elements? by MrBogard · · Score: 1

      Well, that may be what defines the genre on the purest of terms, but it's still pretty clear that progression goes hand-in-hand with the *role*playing genre. Typos aside, the point is that there are developers flying the RPG banner as freely as anyone else. Oh, and the fourth pillar is exploration! I've been up all night, I shouldn't try to argue :(

    7. Re:Really? What are RPG elements? by crossmr · · Score: 1

      Yes it does. But the progression doesn't have to be one of a stats and levels on a character basis. If that is the only progression it isn't roleplaying. What progression you might see is the build of resources in a sandbox game. People being trained to do jobs, building towns, defeating an enemy. that is progression.

    8. Re:Really? What are RPG elements? by MrBogard · · Score: 1

      Exploration.. sorry.

    9. Re:Really? What are RPG elements? by MrBogard · · Score: 1

      Hence the use of the world "element." I'm not being critical of your critique here, if anything I dug a bigger hole here with typos and judgment errors. I'm not trying to say that these games are becoming classic RPG's, in any definition of the genre, only that some influence is spilling over that line.

    10. Re:Really? What are RPG elements? by Agronomist+Cowherd · · Score: 1

      And what do you know about counting?

      --
      -DwS
    11. Re:Really? What are RPG elements? by MrBogard · · Score: 1

      I'm good up to three. I get lost after that.

    12. Re:Really? What are RPG elements? by geekoid · · Score: 1

      umm.. no.

      "A roleplaying game is a game where the players actions and choices have a meaningful and lasting effect on the game world and that world changes as a response to it"

      When as it been that? never in computer games, and it will be a while before it can be.

      For the WHOLE history of computer games an RPG has been about Stats and Stuff. (heh, I should create a RPG called Stats and Stuff"

      In a truer sense, roleplaying is about the actions of the player tempered within the boundaries of the game. Pong could be a roleplaying game if it was played by two people that wanted it to be. One player could pretend to be Agassi, the other Macenroe.

      " Mechanics are separate from the genre"
      two points about that:
      1) Some mechanics can help enforce a genre.

      2) the Genre is irrelevant. Any Genre can be used for Role playing.

      Desslock seems to get a hard on from subtly changing the details of the definition to feel superior, and he also will nit pick, often without merit, anything that's different then the game he is currently stroking off to.

      Stupid Kobold.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    13. Re:Really? What are RPG elements? by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Nope, your wrong.

      " Why? because the role has no meaning"

      It has a great meaing with disasterour outcome within the contecty of that game. Limited? yes, but roleplaying comes from the player, not the game.

      As I mention in another post. Pong can be a role playing game if the players were pretending to play famous tennis player during the Australian open.

      A story makes a better role playing experience, but you really don't need much of one.

      You could roleplay a wonder during the French Revolution that helps people and has 'adventures' but still has no real impact on the outcome of the French revolution.

      The mechanics is simple a way to add random elements to the game.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    14. Re:Really? What are RPG elements? by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      "A roleplaying game is a game where the players actions and choices have a meaningful and lasting effect on the game world and that world changes as a response to it"

      While that sounds all clever and all, it's fairly idiotic when you actually think about it. That's not what a RPG is currently, and it's not what an RPG ever was. The fact that such a definition include SimCity is not a condemnation of current RPGs, it's a condemnation of a damn stupid definition. There's never been a requirement that 'the world change', nor that it be 'lasting'. Just making up things doesn't make them true.

      The definition of a roleplaying game is where players have a character with various self-selected skills and traits they start with and that grow as the game progresses, and they can use these different skills in different ways, usually in a non time-sensitive manner. (I.e., they get the time to actually think about what they're doing.) There is some sort of known mathematical model to figure out how well those skill work for what they tried to do.

      Often there are other characters with different skills, played by either them, other players, or the computer/DM.

      That's it. That's a 'role playing game', either a video game or a pen and paper one. Pen and paper ones are obviously more flexible in what can happen, but the premise is the same. Anything with those traits is an RPG, anything without is not.

      Now, over time, this has often been simplified merely to merely combat and combat skills, and that is, perhaps, a shame, but that doesn't change the fact they're RPGs. You could have an RPG that was entirely combat. You could have one that had no combat at all.

      Oh, and in computer games, genres are defined by the mechanics. Period. You can have a FPS with a certain plot, and an adventure game with the same plot, and a RPG with the same plot. All in different genres.

      Anyone asserting anything else is, flatly, someone who doesn't know anything about how games are classified. There are no game genres based on content, or plot, or 'how much you change the world'.

      Now, it's arguably that 'genre' is the wrong word for this, that normally that means 'type of story'...but, OTOH, in TV and movies, 'sci-fi' manages to be a genre, when that's just a _setting_, so asking people use genre 'correctly' is a losing battle. If you want to talk about the 'RPG classification' instead of the 'RPG genre', whatever. RPG still defines a gameplay mechanism no matter what you call it.

      What this 'Desslock' thinks is 'RPG' would actually be better called 'epic', and isn't a genre of video games at all.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    15. Re:Really? What are RPG elements? by crossmr · · Score: 1

      While that sounds all clever and all, it's fairly idiotic when you actually think about it. That's not what a RPG is currently, and it's not what an RPG ever was.

      Actually that is what an RPG has always been.
      When you played D&D your decisions mattered and the world in which you played was permanently changed because of it. Yes, it is very difficult to reproduce in a computer game. Hence why the RPG label has been attached to the games it has been attached to.

      The definition of a roleplaying game is where players have a character with various self-selected skills and traits they start with and that grow as the game progresses,

      Sorry, you can have roleplaying without any of that. People free-form roleplay all over the internet through various mediums and they don't have stats, skills or traits. You're yet another person who has confused mechanics and genre. If roleplaying can be done without any of that, how does it become a game? By allowing that roleplaying to affect the gameworld. None of which require stats or levels. It means the roleplaying you do, those choices you make, impacts the world.

      Oh, and in computer games, genres are defined by the mechanics. Period. You can have a FPS with a certain plot, and an adventure game with the same plot, and a RPG with the same plot. All in different genres.

      not even a little bit. The plot doesn't remotely define a genre, nor did I suggest it did so I'm not sure why you brought that up. A game with a first person perspective could be many things. It might be an action shooter, but it could easily be an RPG. It could also be an adventure game, could even be a Sim. Heck it could be a really detailed card game.
      The perspective has zero bearing on its genre. What has a bearing on the genre is what is happening in the game itself and unless the choices you make can actually have an effect on the gameworld, whatever role you choose is meaningless and it isn't a roleplaying game.

      What this 'Desslock' thinks is 'RPG' would actually be better called 'epic', and isn't a genre of video games at all.

      You obviously have no idea who Desslock is, which makes you either very young or poorly read. He wrote the RPG reviews and columns for PC Game and gamespot for a very long time. He's also written several well known and famous guides for various RPG games. He likes CRPGs, he just thinks few if any are actual roleplaying games.

    16. Re:Really? What are RPG elements? by crossmr · · Score: 1

      Nope, your wrong.

      " Why? because the role has no meaning"

      It has a great meaing with disasterour outcome within the contecty of that game. Limited? yes, but roleplaying comes from the player, not the game.

      As I mention in another post. Pong can be a role playing game if the players were pretending to play famous tennis player during the Australian open.

      A story makes a better role playing experience, but you really don't need much of one.

      You could roleplay a wonder during the French Revolution that helps people and has 'adventures' but still has no real impact on the outcome of the French revolution.

      The mechanics is simple a way to add random elements to the game./blockquote.
      That is exactly the point. If the roleplaying doesn't come from the game, how can you call it a roleplaying game? You can't. An actual roleplaying game is only one in which the role you play actually has any meaning. It has zero meaning in pong because it has no effect. I can't make any choices. Either I hit the ball or not. In space invaders I either kill the aliens or lose. There is no real effect from the role. In most computer RPGs I either follow the plot or I stand there. There is little opportunity to make another choice and actually do something else with the game.

      Yes the mechanics do just add random elements to the game, but they could be used to add random elements to any game of any genre. That was kind of the point. They don't make the game a "roleplaying game" because they have nothing to do with the actual roleplaying. Hence they're not "roleplaying elements"

    17. Re:Really? What are RPG elements? by crossmr · · Score: 1

      "A roleplaying game is a game where the players actions and choices have a meaningful and lasting effect on the game world and that world changes as a response to it"

      When as it been that? never in computer games, and it will be a while before it can be.

      It hasn't. That was his point.
      In the early years many games grabbed onto the RPG genre like it was some kind of title that gave them legitimacy regardless of whether or not they were actually roleplaying games.

      In a truer sense, roleplaying is about the actions of the player tempered within the boundaries of the game.

      Well very close. The players actions, but more importantly their choices. Those actions and choices need to have some kind of meaning. You make actions and choices in many games but if they are ultimately meaningless to what is going on in the game beyond "do I live or die" then there isn't much case to be made for the game allowing you to play a role.

    18. Re:Really? What are RPG elements? by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      People free-form roleplay all over the internet through various mediums and they don't have stats, skills or traits.

      Yes, I know that. Roleplaying doesn't require any of that. I've been playing on fricking MUSHes for over a decade, I know what roleplaying is.

      Roleplaying games, however, do require that. Here, let me quote Wikipedia as to what a 'game' is: 'Key components of games are goals, rules, challenge, and interaction.'.

      See that 'rules'? And 'challenges'? Yeah.

      People can freeform roleplay all they want. I've got no problem with it.

      A roleplaying game, however, requires a challenge to overcome, either against other people or nature, like all games, and thus requires some set of rules to determine if the challenge was overcome, like all games. There's a difference between dribbling a basketball and playing a game of basketball, a difference between shuffling playing cards and playing the game of solitary, and a difference between roleplaying and playing a roleplaying game.

      Roleplaying games are distinguished by the fact that the only skill the player needs is intelligence. (And luck.) Unlike 'action' games, you can play them without any physical dexterity at all, and you usually have all the time in the world to make decisions.

      However, there are other video game genres that require only intelligence (and luck) also, and give you as much time as you need to do something, like puzzle games, board games, adventure games, and card games (I mean like MtG, but ones like poker also count.)

      What distinguished a RPG from those things is that an RPG has a character (Which excludes puzzle, board, and card) that gains user-selected skill based on almost every random thing they have done. And that said skills are used to determine the odds of things working or not.

      This distinguishes from from adventure games, which, if any ability are gained, are at scripted points, and generally can't be selected between, and things either work or not.

      The perspective has zero bearing on its genre. What has a bearing on the genre is what is happening in the game itself and unless the choices you make can actually have an effect on the gameworld, whatever role you choose is meaningless and it isn't a roleplaying game.

      I love this rather crazy idea that there are computer games where the world isn't altered by the end. There isn't a single computer game with a 'world' that you don't 'affect the world' in.

      All games have some sort of configuration, and you make decisions to change the configuration. It's basic premise of interacting with the computer. FPS, adventure games, you change 'the world' to make things happen. You just essentially described all games.

      The sole exceptions would be straight up quiz games, which don't really have a world at all. Hell, you arguably even 'change the world' in Tetris, although the world doesn't really resemble ours, consisting solely of blocks. But you sure change it. The world was empty, it starts to fill, you embark on a quest to keep it empty as long as you can.

      But forget puzzle games. Let's look at adventure games. The only difference between adventure games and RPGs are how skills and abilities are defined and used. In adventure games, you worry about collecting items to use a few times to do specific things, and everyone playing the game collects roughly the same thing in the same way, whereas in RPGs you gain generic skills by doing generic things, and you can use them in a lot of places, and often can use different skill in one place depending on the character build.

      But without reference to the gameplay mechanics, please explain the difference between whatever CRPG you accept as a 'real' RPG, and, for example, King's Quest.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    19. Re:Really? What are RPG elements? by crossmr · · Score: 1

      Roleplaying games, however, do require that. Here, let me quote Wikipedia as to what a 'game' is: 'Key components of games are goals, rules, challenge, and interaction.'.

      See that 'rules'? And 'challenges'? Yeah.

      Good. then you know that roleplaying doesn't require those things.

      You can have goals, rules, challenges and interactions without having stats, character levels or slightly more accurate guns.

      What distinguished a RPG from those things is that an RPG has a character (Which excludes puzzle, board, and card) that gains user-selected skill based on almost every random thing they have done. And that said skills are used to determine the odds of things working or not.

      No, that is what is what a lot of people claim distinguish the games, but the reality is it doesn't. There are plenty of games which have these which aren't roleplaying games, and why they're referred to as first person shooters with "rpg elements". People realize those things don't make them roleplaying games. If they don't make the first person shooter an RPG, then how do they make the RPG an RPG? They don't.

      I love this rather crazy idea that there are computer games where the world isn't altered by the end. There isn't a single computer game with a 'world' that you don't 'affect the world' in.

      No, the idea is that the choices are rather meaningless and so are the changes. Everything is scripted. You can't deviate from the story and go off on your own. So your own choice is to go along the preset path or turn it off. No matter what role you play within the confines of the game it has zero bearing on the progression of the game, or the changes are at best superficial. They don't actually impact the game world in any meaningful way.

      I haven't come across any CRPGs that could genuinely be defined as a "real" rpg. The only one that could would be one that could properly replicate an actual gaming session with a DM, which means when the players decide to not take the bait and go off in a completely different direction the DM has to roll with that and keep the world alive and moving. Regardless of the underlying rules, system, or lack thereof that a game might rely on, what would make a game a genuine roleplaying game?

      1. Start with a giant sandbox, a world, or part of one
      2. set the player free to interact in it
      3. Give the player a staggering amount of ability to change things. All things at various levels depending on the resources available to him. He can set up stores, run random missions, buy buildings, hire guards to guard mines, caravans, etc
      4. Set up conflict of some sort in the world. Economic, military, etc.
      5. forget the "main" quest. The player can create his own in that kind of a world, at some point with that kind of conflict an NPC will begin to present himself as a rival/competitor for the player.
      6. make the world completely living (and honestly living, not "living" like some companies have claimed in the last few years)

      Basically the only genuine RPG out there would be one which combined several strong points from various games on a scale that no developer seems to have the ability to accomplish yet, but frankly given the technology that we have now, it should be possible.

      In such a system a player would be free to make tons of choices that would directly impact the world and have genuine lasting effects. Saving some NPCs lost dog isn't really a meaningful change if you never interact with that NPC or the dog, or anything else ever again. If all that changes is a dog sprite/model exists where one didn't exist before it isn't really a meaningful change. However in this kind of a game you'd have the ability to eventually change everything. Just as you would in a genuine roleplaying game. Yes you'd need serious processing power to run all the people in this world. That would be about the only limiting thing, but with quad and more processors coming we

  36. Beyond nonsense rant indeed. by unity100 · · Score: 1

    so, rpg elements are creeping into other genres, and ousting mods, dedicated servers etc ?

    that is happening, DESPITE rpg games themselves are being made from the start to include extensive modding, and multiplayer ? like how dragon age has modding, and like how unbelievably moddable mount & blade is ? ( to the extent of some mods being entirely different games) upcoming multiplayer server (counter/starcraft style) for mount and blade ?

  37. Mod Parent Up by Fozzyuw · · Score: 0

    I think the article was rather interesting.

    --
    "The past was erased, the erasure was forgotten, the lie became truth." ~1984 George Orwell
  38. MW2 by nschubach · · Score: 1

    Dammit! MW2 will always belong to Mechwarrior 2 for me!

    --
    Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
  39. Bad Company? by rtechie · · Score: 1

    I'm not even sure I buy the premise. Sure, Battlefield: Bad Company eschewed the PC version altogether and Modern Warfare 2 lacked official mod tools, but I'm not really sure this is a trend. DICE has pointedly announced that the PC version, mod tools, and dedicated server are back for Bad Company 2. You've also got Medal of Honor, Alien vs. Predator, Crysis 2, etc.

    1. Re:Bad Company? by MrBogard · · Score: 1

      The trend is the progression elements in these competitive games, not the lack of mod tools. For what it's worth, though, EA recently announced that Bad Company 2 *will not* support mods.

  40. Its just a game by Scarumanga · · Score: 1

    Heres the thing many people fail to realize, and yet it is the most simple concept to grasp. That the games are intended to be fun, and they are, Fallout 3 is among the best, MW2 kicks ass, i play that every day, but im not picky in FPS games, i can kill anyone with any gun, im a gamer, a true gamer. If earning your ranks and the priv to use certain firearms in a game is a hindrance to you then i suggest simply go back to packman and leave real gamers play our games. These so called "RPG" elements let us play the game in a different style every time, I think the clone wars in multiplayer games is long over. Let the dev's figure out what way to take it, i am confident in the routes they will take, they know what they are doing or else they wouldn't still be in the business. The consumer is not always right (in this case, the basement troll is not always night, and never is for that fact)

    1. Re:Its just a game by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      [feed troll]

          Spoken like a true moron.

      [/feed troll]

  41. The EVE Maxim by twoallbeefpatties · · Score: 3, Funny

    I propose The EVE Maxim: As a discussion about the shortcoming about videogames increases in length, the probability that someone will propose that EVE does not fall to those shortcomings and is modded insightful for it approaches 1.

    --
    Libertarians somehow believe that private businesses should be stronger than governments but weaker than individuals.
    1. Re:The EVE Maxim by Minwee · · Score: 2, Funny

      That doesn't happen on the EVE boards, you know.

  42. Bioshock? WTF? by DdJ · · Score: 1

    He calls Bioshock an example of RPG elements creeping into other genres? WTF?

    At its core that game should be an RPG. I think it's an example of shooter elements creeping into my RPGs. Same damned thing happened to Mass Effect. Hopefully I'll be able to look past it in Bioshock 2 and ME2.

  43. It's pretty simple by nlawalker · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It's really pretty simple: people who play games are demanding more for their $60 - more playtime, more engrossing experiences, more replayability, more choices and more customization. Think of all the games on the market now... a hippity-hop 2D platformer can be a pretty hard sell for 50 or 60 bucks when there are games right next to it that promise expansive environments, customization, tons of playtime, etc. The easiest way to make a game more complex and cover all those traits in one fell swoop is to toss in a leveling system and some kind of skill tree or progression. It makes a game more multifaceted and provides a "meta-game" that sits underneath the pew-pew-pew on the screen. Technology has also made it easier to create no-loading open-world environments as opposed to static levels, which play very nicely with RPG elements because passing by areas you can't reach and enemies too strong for you to kill is interesting and makes you want to come back later.

    And why are these games trending toward being first-person shooters? Well, if you want a three-dimensional, open world experience with a free-roaming character, there are really only two places you can put the camera: inside the player-character's head, or outside of it. I guess developers have simply found that third person cameras don't add a lot to the experience (who wants to look at their character's ass for 40 hours - then again, this may explain the rise of female player-characters), they are hard to program, and they don't feel as controllable or as precise as first-person viewpoints.

    So if it all comes down to the price point, which I alluded to in my opening sentence, then where are the cheaper, less complex games? They're on XBox Live, PSN and the VC store, where they get little attention from casual gamers because they're not advertised and they're too hard to find, no attention from "hardcore" gamers because they're "casual games" that are too simplistic and not worth the money, and ignored by the media because they're not blockbusters and no one wants to read the reviews. Welcome to the games industry.

    1. Re:It's pretty simple by geekoid · · Score: 1

      There are cheaper less complex games all over the place that are hugely popular.
      Puzzle Pirates, Wizard101, Math the jewel type game, poker, solitare.

      Dude, look around a little.

      These games make money, in some cases a lot of money. Puzzle pirates probably makes more money the Dragon Age ever will.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  44. Good Point by kellyb9 · · Score: 1

    I, too, hate it when game developers break through predefined molds and come up with some innovative and new.

  45. If you need to mod something by geekoid · · Score: 1

    in order to make it good, maybe you should move on to a good games?

    Yes, I understand many mods are to good games, the the submitter seems to be talking about a bad game.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  46. TF2 can be excluded by SeeSp0tRun · · Score: 1

    While TF2 does have item upgrades, and "drops," there are mods out there, and even server commands to disable them. To that effect, there is an extremely active mod community, and it all depends on the servers' administrators.

    To add to that, TF2 is a class based game. Any FPS with as much diversity as TF2 deserves upgrades and the like.

    --
    Something witty.
  47. Mabinogi by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    Ever play Mabinogi (or ANY game that uses Hackshield or GameGuard?)

    There is a modding community, but it's all pretty much evil:
    - Hackshield bypass which allows the mods and cheating
    - Mods to the data folder to allow cheating (by way of having maps marked, duping items)
    - Mods to the data folder to allow cosmetic cheating (having "you" have equipment that requires effort, money or time to earn/purchase)
    - Mods to the dll files to allow cheating (to see hidden stats like combat power, to hack the archery range or accuracy)
    - Mods to the dll files to fix bugs in the game client (font rendering subsystem)
    - Mods to break the game through packet editing

    Here's a point to prove the complaint of "allowing mods prevents earning profit from the game"

    One of the cheats that virtually everyone had was the "summon" mod, which costs 50 cents to buy from the game store, but the mod made it so any item in your inventory (stackable items like meat, salt, strawberries) could be used to trigger it, thus depriving Nexon of money at 50 cents a pop. Some players would use this mod excessively to teleport their friends around or to field bosses. This "mod" was finally fixed in the last patch update.

    But the root of the mods is the off-the-shelf software being used to "prevent" modding/cheating. Once someone bypasses hackshield all the mods come back into full force. Since otherwise it requires skill to edit the game binaries or data pack files. Hackshield doesn't do squat about edits to the binaries.

  48. Game Identity by stewbacca · · Score: 1

    I think a game should have a sound identity (RPS, FPS, RTS, Sim, whatever) and stick to that. When you start injecting elements from other genres, you just water down the overall game.

    This probably isn't a popular view, but I think Warcraft III was terrible because it tried to add an RPG element to an obvious RTS engine. The same goes for games that try to add a MMORP feel to games that aren't really MMORP games...just being online and playing with other humans doesn't qualify a game as an MMORP, yet many online games today try to think of themselves as such.

  49. Re:Bioshock? WTF? by Fallingcow · · Score: 1

    Bioshock barely has any RPG elements compared to the game for which it was supposed to be the "spiritual successor"--System Shock 2.

  50. Forum RPGs by penguinrecorder · · Score: 1

    Let's face it, RPG elements are creeping into everything. They've already crept into slashdot (Karma points, achievements). I can't wait for the day when I can check a calculator to see how many times I have to make chicken stir fry before I can level up my cooking skill.

  51. Options? by rident · · Score: 1

    How about present a few options instead of offering complaints to complaints people? I know there are some current, fun, "mind-buster" style games out there. I would recommend Braid or Machinarium as interesting, side-scrolling, indie puzzle games. Racing has it's niche in competence also with series like Gran Turismo. FPS is a twitch sport but that doesn't mean the need to think isn't there. Check out games like ARMA2, Americas Army 3, or Resistance and Liberation for more teamwork, realism, strategy. I hope my list is enjoyed, these are just a few of the current games that one could get into which do require a bit of thought not to die, crash, get stuck, and/or lose. Any suggestions for the RPG, RTS, flight sim, or other category that I missed?

  52. That's the Activision way. by mjwx · · Score: 1

    Not that that's a real reason for removing dedicated servers

    The real reason for removing (not adding) dedicated servers is so they could push MW2 out as fast as possible. Cut out as much as you can, make it short and sell hard, that's the EA\Activision way. There's more marketing hype then actual game in Modern Warfare 2. Personally I didn't think Modern Warfare 1 was that good, certainly not as good as the fanboys or marketing are making it out. Maybe I'm just a crotchety old PC gamer but there is nothing in Modern Warfare that I haven't played before in better games.

    But Modern Warfare enjoyed success on the consoles (possibly due to games like BF 1942 or earlier COD's never being released on conosles). So Activision immediately started on a sequel, personally I think if a game cannot stand on it's own for no less then three years it does not deserve a sequel, this is why getting a sequel out for Modern Warfare had to be done so quickly, if people started seeing Modern Warfare in reality, as passe then they would lose mind-share and never sell a big sequel. Modern Warfare did terribly on PC's and rightly so, we expect better. In fact we already have better games like Battlefield 2.

    Anyone who doesn't think that Activision is working on Modern Warfare 3 is kidding themselves, it was in production before Modern Warfare 2 hit shelves. I earmark mid 2011 for it's release bugs or no and it will be just as short as and uninventive as the previous Modern Warfare games, because that's the Activision way. They'd get a new Modern Warfare out each year before Christmas if it were possible.

    Fortunately the consolisation of decent games is ending. Nintendo proved that the real money is with casual games not the "hardcore" crowd. Microsoft took note (what do you think Natal is all about) so the next Xbox will be built along the same lines as the Wii (MS are nothing if not good at copying) and probably make a profit from the word go. Decent FPS games will gravitate back to the PC as consoles will no longer be able to compete in terms of power (not that they've been able to, you still cant do FSAA on consoles). This means the death of pointless sequels and the Activision way which is a good thing(TM).

    BTW, it's not all doom and gloom, there still are decent developers out there, like Valve and Stardock.

    --
    Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    1. Re:That's the Activision way. by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      Activision's problem for making MW3 is that the developer that made the MW games takes two years per game. There's talk about Infinity Ward not making MW3 but supposedly IW is extremely arrogant when it comes to their series and wants to keep Treyarch(CoD3, World at War, CoD4 Reflex Edition) away from it. Treyarch probably isn't making MW3 either. They recently put another studio on CoD but that won't be long enough to have it out by Christmas 2010. If anything we'll see a Treyarch release something unrelated branded Call of Duty this year.

      Decent FPS games will gravitate back to the PC as consoles will no longer be able to compete in terms of power

      What the Wii also showed is that weaker graphics aren't a dealbreaker anymore so you can expect FPSes to stay on consoles because more processing power isn't attractive for developers and customers alike.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    2. Re:That's the Activision way. by mjwx · · Score: 1

      Activision's problem for making MW3 is that the developer that made the MW games takes two years per game.

      That why I said, if it were possible. 1 MW release right before Christmas per year is their ideal scenario. Like with GENERIC SPORT GAME 20*

      There's talk about Infinity Ward not making MW3 but supposedly IW is extremely arrogant when it comes to their series and wants to keep Treyarch(CoD3, World at War, CoD4 Reflex Edition) away from it.

      Nice to see some dev's taking responsibility for their games, Infinity Ward aren't bad dev's and MW wasn't a bad game it just wasn't a good game (mediocre and been done before, not buggy and annoyingly unplayable). But Activision wont let them get away with this. Activision owns Call Of Duty(TM) and probably Modern Warfare(TM) so IW are up against a wall.

      What the Wii also showed is that weaker graphics aren't a dealbreaker anymore so you can expect FPSes to stay on consoles because more processing power isn't attractive for developers and customers alike.

      We are yet to see a decent Wii FPS. I doubt it will sell, it's far easier to produce RPG's, racing games, guitar Hero/Wii Fit so we'll see more of this.

      More FPS's will become PC exclusive as MS goes casual with their next console because the market for low graphics shooters isn't that big. PC's are a large and established market, they are also fairly homogeneous. If console graphics are going to be cut down then the same can happen with PC graphics making a game more accessible to more PC's

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    3. Re:That's the Activision way. by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      The Call of Duty series has been selling fairly well on the Wii considering the ports are vastly inferior to other versions (CoD3 and 5 are over a million, 4 is getting there quickly). Casual FPSes will always sell better on consoles, no matter which console. They're not going to make their casual FPSes PC exclusive and by the looks of it almost nobody bothers with anything else now.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    4. Re:That's the Activision way. by mjwx · · Score: 1

      The Call of Duty series has been selling fairly well on the Wii considering the ports

      The hole in your logic is that COD 3 and 5 (and 4 is now on the Wii, 2 years later in a neutered form) is that these titles were developed for the PC and ported to console or in the worst case developed for the PC and Xbox simultaneously then ported to the Wii. This will not happen when the middleman (Xbox) is not there. There are few PC to Wii ports and vice versa because a gaming PC and causal console are very different beasties.

      Not that I'm bashing casual consoles. They are a great thing, what consoles are meant to be and what bought me back to the console world (I have a Wii). Causal is what a console does best, from Mario to Wii Sports this has always been true and its a Good Thing(TM). Consoles get gamers and non gamers together without the skill gap being apparent. This can only happen by simplifying games, this is not a Bad Thing(TM) in general but it is for FPS's, RTS's and other complex games. Nothing I love more then to wind down after a hard day at work by some mindless entertainment, the Xbox 360 and PS3 simply doesn't provide this. If I want an in-depth gaming experience I go to my PC. CoD3 and 5 are over a million, 4 is getting there quickly

      Thats chicken feed on the Wii. Of the top ten selling Wii games only one has sold under 4.5 million. Using the logic that the top game has sold 50.45 million then COD must be reaching less then 10% of the install base, unlike with the PS3/Xbox 360.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
  53. it goes both ways by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The genre creep goes both ways. FPS elements have been taking over all computer RPG games as well. I'm big into RPGs and only rarely enjoy a straight FPS, but nowadays, I can't find an RPG game where I can plan out my character's actions without having to handle a battle in real time FPS style. Sometimes its fun, but sometimes I just want an RPG. I can imagine the same frustration for the FPS gamer.

    Crossovers make new and interesting things. But they can also lose what you liked about something in the first place.