Slashdot Mirror


Supreme Court Rolls Back Corporate Campaign Spending Limits

lorenlal writes "The Supreme Court of the United States must have figured that restrictions on corporate support of candidates was a violation of free speech, or something like that." From the AP story linked above: "By a 5-4 vote, the court on Thursday overturned a 20-year-old ruling that said corporations can be prohibited from using money from their general treasuries to pay for campaign ads. The decision, which almost certainly will also allow labor unions to participate more freely in campaigns, threatens similar limits imposed by 24 states."

149 of 1,070 comments (clear)

  1. Bad, bad news by truthsearch · · Score: 4, Insightful

    We need to replace the "conservatives" on the supreme court who don't understand that corporations should not have the constitutional rights of citizens.

    1. Re:Bad, bad news by Hatta · · Score: 5, Insightful

      They already have the only vote that matters. If you can choose who the candidates are, you never have to worry about which one wins.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    2. Re:Bad, bad news by FooAtWFU · · Score: 4, Insightful

      When they ratified an amendment protecting the free press, next to Speech, you don't think that any corporation had ever spent any money to publish a newspaper to push a political opinion?

      --
      The World Wide Web is dying. Soon, we shall have only the Internet.
    3. Re:Bad, bad news by ScentCone · · Score: 5, Insightful

      We need to replace the "conservatives" on the supreme court who don't understand that corporations should not have the constitutional rights of citizens.

      The constitution doesn't give you, or a business formed by you and a friend, any rights. The constitution is there to limit the government's ability to take those rights away. Being able to buy a newspaper advertisement or broadcast an advertisement isn't something that the goverment should be able to prevent you (or the company you've formed) from doing. Likewise for labor unions, advocacy groups, churches, scouting troops, bowling leagues, open source code projects, or anyone else.

      I'm always amazed at how many misguided people think their rights come from the government. That explains a lot about why statists like Pelosi and Reid think they have so much more traction than they really do. Don't give it to them, now matter how much you want the government to be your Nanny.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    4. Re:Bad, bad news by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 4, Insightful

      We need to replace the "conservatives" on the supreme court who don't understand that corporations should not have the constitutional rights of citizens.

      I think we face this issue: What do we do when those who have studied a subject extensively (the USPTO members in this case) come to conclusions that seem absurd (relative to our plain reading of the Constitution, in this case). Because most of us who are supposedly bound the the Constitution don't have the time and means to study it extensively while still meeting our other responsibilities.

      One the one hand, we might conclude that if we too had studied the Constitution extensively, we would reach the same conclusions as the SCOTUS. And then we can choose to either accept their judgment, or try to muster the balls to get the Constitution changed.

      Or on the other hand, we might reason that regardless of the sophistication of their reasoning, it must have some (perhaps hidden) flaw, because of the conclusions they've reached. (I.e., that corporations have free-speech rights that are so sacrosanct that they can legally de facto buy legislation). I'm not exactly sure what options this leaves us, shy of revolution. Which despite the bravado we often exhibit on this site, would have tragic consequences in terms of lost or ruined lives of innocent persons.

    5. Re:Bad, bad news by DaHat · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Never mind that most press organizations (tv, radio & print) are all run by for-profit corporations.

    6. Re:Bad, bad news by ArcherB · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The constitution doesn't give you, or a business formed by you and a friend, any rights. The constitution is there to limit the government's ability to take those rights away.

      Thank you for reminding us that many of the first X amendments state "Congress shall pass no law that...", not "Citizens may..."

      --
      There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
    7. Re:Bad, bad news by Seakip18 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think the main distinction is that, the individual or group of individuals that put these opinions out there cannot be restricted by the gov't. If a corporation assists in extracting and spreading these opinions, then it's all good, because the opinions are not that of the corporation(at least on the face), just that of the individuals.

      Granted, Fox news isn't going to want publish an editorial applauding Obama, but you get the point.

      A corporation, where there is NO individual in play, should not have any of these rights, because they are not a person, ergo, how can they have any fundamental rights?

      A corporation, instead, is a legal entity created and defined under the US law. It can simplify the ownership of holdings, properties and patents as well as managing finances(yeah. I greatly simplified it, but again, you get the idea.)

      Beyond that, it is as real as my perpetual motion machine. I have no problems placing legal restrictions on the financial "donations" of this legal entity to candidates. Their business practice alone should make me want to get behind whatever message/candidate they are pushing. I don't need them paying so much money that I can't turn on the TV without hearing "Obama this. Pelosi that!".

      PS. For unions, just add "membership restricted/compelled membership" to the definition of a corporation.

      --
      import system.cool.Sig;
    8. Re:Bad, bad news by FooAtWFU · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That doesn't sound like a complaint against corporations, it sounds like a complaint against the Republican and Democrat political parties. Especially the incumbents.

      And there's a reason that the thing was nicknamed the McCain-Feingold Incumbent Protection Act.

      --
      The World Wide Web is dying. Soon, we shall have only the Internet.
    9. Re:Bad, bad news by AliasMarlowe · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I'm sure many corporations would gladly give up free speech if they were not taxed like individuals.

      Corporations are taxed like individuals? That's a good one!
      Can an individual deduct all of his/her operating costs from income before tax? If so, expenditure on food, accommodation, and utilities would be deductible just like corporate office rentals and utilities. You'd be declaring only the $20k you can save/invest as taxable instead of most of your $100k gross income. A 40% rate on that "surplus" income would not hurt so much...

      --
      Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
    10. Re:Bad, bad news by jollyreaper · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The constitution doesn't give you, or a business formed by you and a friend, any rights. The constitution is there to limit the government's ability to take those rights away. Being able to buy a newspaper advertisement or broadcast an advertisement isn't something that the goverment should be able to prevent you (or the company you've formed) from doing. Likewise for labor unions, advocacy groups, churches, scouting troops, bowling leagues, open source code projects, or anyone else.

      If money = speech, that means I'm at the back of the hall shouting to be heard while the guy with the bucks is up on stage with the sound system from Disaster Area drowning me out.

      Saying that a mutli-billion dollar corporation should have full access to those resources in shaping public opinion and that I'm perfectly free to shout back and that this is all fair, that's like saying 30-something me has the right to put my fence five feet into my 70-something neighbor's yard and if he has a problem with that he can challenge me to a fight. That's completely inequitable. This is just formalizing the inequality we already have in the legal system where a corporation may be completely in the wrong on a given topic but it will take me five years of lawsuits to prove it out in court and I'll go broke in the process. That may be legal but it's not fucking right!

      --
      Kwisatz Haderach
      Sell the spice to CHOAM
      This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
    11. Re:Bad, bad news by ak3ldama · · Score: 2, Informative

      How is a campaign donation a trampling of someone's rights? What is a person being blocked from doing because someone else has made a publicly viewable campaign donation? Be specific.

      Having their voice heard by their "representatives."

      --
      "but money is the God of Algiers & Mahomet their prophet." - Rich. O'Bryen June 8th 1786
    12. Re:Bad, bad news by iceborer · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You are correct, but the GP talked about corporations which are creations of law (passed by our government) and not of simple association like the simple business you describe. These laws specifically give advantages to corporations and other legal entities which would not exist outside the law (again, passed by and enforced through our government). The greatest of these is, of course, the limitation on pass-through liability for acts of the corporation to its shareholders/owners. Nowhere in the Constitution is the right to create such entities explicitly given to the government, yet many folks seem to think their existence is just fine with them as is the shield from liability afforded to their owners (which is contrary to our legal notions of personhood and legal responsibility). I'm fine with unlimited corporate contributions to political candidates so long as the government does not provide a protected status to corporations. Feel free to form business associations. but understand that each of the members of these associations will be fully, personally liable for all actions and debts of the association. What's that? Without protection from liability there will be no corporations? Fine by me. Until that point, entities whose existence is solely a matter of law should realize that the law can constrain as well as benefit them.

    13. Re:Bad, bad news by dgatwood · · Score: 5, Insightful

      This isn't about campaign contributions. Companies are still banned from doing that; the court upheld that provision. The Supreme Court overturned the part of the law that made it illegal for companies to spend money for their own political ads similar to what PACs do.

      So basically, the court said that corporations run by a handful of individuals can spend arbitrary amounts of money on advertisements. The problem with this is that it is almost impossible for any legitimate political organization to achieve the same level of political influence as a result. Groups like PACs are nonprofit organizations. Therefore, they cannot feasibly raise money on the same scale as a public corporation can. Thus, this decision gives the people in charge of corporations the power to spend money on a scale that completely overwhelms the spending that any group of people dedicated to any cause can possibly hope to achieve no matter how well organized, no matter how many people join the group, etc. And because it is almost impossible to pierce the corporate veil, no matter how sleazy, unethical, etc. the ads become, the corporate leaders who put them together cannot be held personally accountable, unlike actual groups of individuals working together for a common cause.

      In effect, this change puts control of the government firmly in the hands of the wealthiest individuals with no oversight whatsoever. It's sobering to realize that after years of Congress and the White House wiping their backsides with the Constitution, we now have a judicial branch that is willing to do the same.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    14. Re:Bad, bad news by Myrv · · Score: 2, Interesting

      But a corporation is merely a construct of government. Every right that a corporation has should therefore be at the behest of the government. The government grants a corporation certain tax benefits and protections and in return can limit certain activities (such as politicking). If the corporation doesn't like this there is nobody stopping them from running their business as sole proprietorship (or partnership or whatever). Of course doing so opens them up to liability (among other things) but those are the risks you have to take if you want all the privileges of a person. In this case the corporations want all the privileges of a person while sharing none of the responsibilities.

    15. Re:Bad, bad news by SETIGuy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      How does free (non-libelous, non-fraudulant) speech threaten democracy?

      You didn't apparently see the hour long "documentary" that was the subject of this case. It was both libelous and fraudulent.

      Unfortunately the courts have decided that speech for political purposes can be both libelous and fraudulent without limit or recourse.

      If that weren't the case, wouldn't people claiming Obama falsified his birth certificate (definitely libelous and fraudulent) be held responsible for their lies? Wouldn't people that claimed Hillary Clinton either had Vince Foster killed, or pulled the trigger herself be in hot water. Wouldn't Rush Limbaugh be in trouble for claiming that Obama was siphoning off Haiti donations into his campaign funds? No, in this country you can lie about anything as long as it's political.

    16. Re:Bad, bad news by phantomfive · · Score: 4, Informative

      Or on the other hand, we might reason that regardless of the sophistication of their reasoning, it must have some (perhaps hidden) flaw, because of the conclusions they've reached. (I.e., that corporations have free-speech rights that are so sacrosanct that they can legally de facto buy legislation). I'm not exactly sure what options this leaves us, shy of revolution. Which despite the bravado we often exhibit on this site, would have tragic consequences in terms of lost or ruined lives of innocent persons.

      The solution in that case is the same: if the constitution is so unclear on a certain point that through sophisticated reasoning it can come to a point that none of us like, then the solution is to amend the constitution so that the constitution IS clear, and there is no disagreement. My understanding is this exact thing happened with the 14th Amendment. There was a complicated court case that concluded slaves have no protection under the constitution, and then the 14th amendment was enacted to make sure they do.

      --
      Qxe4
    17. Re:Bad, bad news by IndustrialComplex · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Really?

      "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

      Of course, that isn't really followed, but just because it isn't followed doesn't mean that what the government is doing is right either.

      --
      Out of modpoints but really liked a post? 1BDkF6TtmmeZ3yqXbz9yhdYVqRYnwFoXDj
    18. Re:Bad, bad news by jmorris42 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      > And by explicitly circumscribing what governments may not do, they implicitly give the government the right to do everything else.

      Not quite. After painstakingly spelling out a carefully enumerated list of what the federal government could do, they for good measure spelling out a list of things it could not do they went one final step farther and added the 9th and 10th Amendments saying that everything not explicitly permitted was forbidden. Three layers of clearly spelled out rules intended to protect against the crap we have now and the Progressives wiped their asses on the lot of it and replaced the rule of law with the rule of great (in their minds) men. The Founding Fathers, who were truly great men, knew enough to know that NO man could be entrusted with the sort of power every member of Congress now wields (illegally) and forbade it to themselves and to the current generation.

      --
      Democrat delenda est
    19. Re:Bad, bad news by DaHat · · Score: 2, Interesting

      So you are calling NBC/MSNBC a disreputable news organization? I knew it!

      Apparently you’ve not been paying attention to how NBC Universal (NBC, MSNBC, (now) SyFy) and others have been pushing the 'green' movement more than the others... in large part to benefit it's parent company of General Electric. ... but as a broader point I'm going to quote from a blog post of a friend of mine:

      When FoxNews reported on NewsCorp, the FoxNews anchor always says NewsCorp is the parent company of this network.

      Likewise, when FoxNews reports on Rupert Murdoch, the anchor says, Rupert Murdoch is the CEO of NewsCorp, the parent company of this network.

      So, when MSNB & NBC reporter discusses Barack Obama, when they talk about Tim Geithner, why do they not say Barack Obama is the President of the United States, a major investor in the parent company of this network?

      When MSNBC & NBC report on the Pay Czar restricting the take-home pay of officials at Citi, Bank of America, and GM, why do they not say that officials at GE, which also was saved from bankruptcy by Treasury backstops, was not impacted?

    20. Re:Bad, bad news by Jason+Levine · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Actually, I think the comparison is valid. Corporations are people (or at least according to SCOTUS). A corporation's operating costs, the "recurring expenses related to the operation of a business", would be things like electricity, equipment, labor, etc. An individual's operating costs equivalent would be recurring expenses related to the operation of a household. If I don't buy food, pay my mortgage, buy clothing, etc, my "operations" grind to a halt same as if a corporation decided to stop paying their workers, skip out on the electric bill and never order another piece of factory equipment again.

      So if the "people" called Corporations are allowed to deduct their operating costs before paying taxes, why aren't the people called Individuals allowed to do the same? Of course the answer is two-fold. First of all, a middle-class individual's taxable income would likely drop by 90%. This would mean a huge loss in tax revenue. For all their talk of cutting taxes, politicians don't *really* want significant tax cuts because they know this would mean spending cuts (which, in turn, would be protested and possibly mean no re-election). Secondly, individuals might contribute to a politician's campaign fund, but most times corporations are the ones who contribute more. If you were a politician facing re-election, would you listen to the person donating $10 to your campaign or the "person" (read: Corporation) donating $10,000?

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
  2. I for one... by Delwin · · Score: 5, Funny

    welcome our new Disney overlords.

    1. Re:I for one... by polar+red · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Your system already looks like 2 conglomerate's of wealthy men dividing the dough and the sweat of 99% of US' citizens.

      --
      Yes, I'm left. You have a problem with that?
    2. Re:I for one... by maxume · · Score: 2, Informative

      Except for the part where 99% is hilariously wrong.

      (Per capita productivity in the U.S., including babies and such, is about $50,000. If 99% of that were being taken away, the average household would be living on like $2,000 a year)

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    3. Re:I for one... by polar+red · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And at the moment, a number in a bank account sure is wealth.

      It's just that people have forgotten that money can't replace the goods it buys. Take away all the goods and your money is useless; it was more a philosophical question than critique ...

      --
      Yes, I'm left. You have a problem with that?
  3. Not just corporations by wiredog · · Score: 4, Informative

    Unions too.

    1. Re:Not just corporations by EnderWiggnz · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yes, I'm sure that the Union's will be able to match the corporations contributions.

      Actually, what will probably happen is that Unions will be made illegal after all of the government is bought and paid for.

      *This* is what the second amendment is for. We apparently don't have a working democracy anymore.

      --
      ... hi bingo ...
    2. Re:Not just corporations by nomadic · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Have you ever heard of the AFL CIO? In 2000 they spent 4.1 million on federal campaigns.

      In other words, an organization representing FIFTY SIX different unions and 11 million workers, donated about the same as a single large corporation would? I think you just proved the point you were trying to disprove.

  4. Right of free speech + right of association by dazedNconfuzed · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Right of free speech + right of association = right of groups, as corporations, to speak freely.

    --
    Can we get a "-1 Wrong" moderation option?
    1. Re:Right of free speech + right of association by DaHat · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well said... also interesting that the focus of most of this has been on corporations and not other groups (be it PACs, unions, etc).

      I wonder at times if what they really want is to effectively limit free speech to those persons who are sufficiently eloquent or well spoken... because if there is a cause I really believe in, but am not really good at speaking on, they seem to want to prohibit me from getting together with a group of like minded people and throwing our support behind a person or two who can do the best job of making a case for what we believe.

    2. Re:Right of free speech + right of association by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Right of free speech + right of association = right of groups, as corporations, to speak freely.

      I'm not arguing that SCOTUS's logic is unsound. I'm arguing that even if their logic is sound, the conclusions they've reached have badly damaged the U.S., because it essentially lets rich corporations decide our laws.

      And for that reason, the Constitution should perhaps be changed so that corporations cannot do this.

    3. Re:Right of free speech + right of association by epiphani · · Score: 5, Informative

      I read up quickly on the methods Canada takes on this, because we actually have - what I would consider - sane laws on this subject.

      We limit individuals to a maximum $5000 donation. We limit corporations to a maximum $1000 donation.

      Finally, and most importantly, we limit the amount any campaign can spend. For a major federal election, it has to do with the last cycle's vote pull. The major parties generally have gotten around $20 million as a cap for any election.

      Contrast this with quotes I remember of saying that the 2008 presidential election in the states ran in excess of a billion dollars.

      Just for reference, if you guys down there ever feel like fixing your shit.

      --
      .
    4. Re:Right of free speech + right of association by natehoy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You are correct, but the implications of this get really sticky.

      The right of association does not necessarily mean the will of the members of that association will be reflected. It means the will of the LEADERS of that association will be reflected. That may or may not reflect the membership, and the membership may or may not be voluntary unless you like quitting jobs because your boss or union steward does not agree with your political views.

      A very large company could basically outright buy an election, any election they wanted, and not just limited to one election at a time. Don't like the way the legislature is writing antitrust law? Find the candidates in each state Senate election that are the least likely to want to have antitrust legislation and spend a few billion dollars on massive ad blitzes attacking their opponents. I think you'd find a very large majority of very large companies that could support such an effort, and they could spend tens of millions of dollars on even local elections without flinching. It wouldn't even match their current spending on Superbowl ads, fercrissake. There would be no opportunity for anyone to hear an opposing credible view, because a sufficiently large coalition of companies can buy ALL of the available airtime for an election.

      On the other hand, drawing the line on what constitutes "free" versus "political" speech is difficult.

      --
      "This post contains words, known to the State of California to cause thought. Wash brain thoroughly after reading."
    5. Re:Right of free speech + right of association by BillCable · · Score: 2, Informative

      The US has limits on individual donations as well. $2400. And corporations are prohibited from donating anything. http://www.fec.gov/pages/brochures/citizens.shtml Perhaps Canada isn't all that much better than the USA after all...

    6. Re:Right of free speech + right of association by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Right of free speech + right of association = right of groups, as corporations, to speak freely.

      I'm not arguing that SCOTUS's logic is unsound. I'm arguing that even if their logic is sound, the conclusions they've reached have badly damaged the U.S., because it essentially lets rich corporations decide our laws.

      And for that reason, the Constitution should perhaps be changed so that corporations cannot do this.

      Replace "corporations" with "unions", "political parties", or "individuals". If your opinion changes, then your logic is faulty. Just because "the corporations are all corporationy" doesn't make opinions of individuals comprising the organization any less valid than your own.

      (Personally, I think that nobody (not individuals nor organizations) should be allowed to contribute money to candidates and political advertising should not be allowed... but I doubt we'll ever see that happen.)

    7. Re:Right of free speech + right of association by joebok · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Right of free speech + right of association means that people can speak freely no matter who they associate with - it does not confer anything to the association. At least that is my opinion. Too bad it doesn't count.

    8. Re:Right of free speech + right of association by Kerrigann · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The debate is not so simple. Corporations aren't just groups; their members are shielded from liability for the corporations actions, so they don't make decisions like normal people do.

      I think a lot of people would take issue with such a simple assertion that the constitution automatically grants natural rights to artificial entities.

      The issue has been debated for forever, so I'm not going to replay it here. I just wanted to point out that it's not so simple.

    9. Re:Right of free speech + right of association by Trepidity · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Part of the problem is that there doesn't seem to be a good way to distinguish between purely "business" corporations, and expressive-association corporations. The Sierra Club is a corporation, for example, and it seems pretty clear to me that the First Amendment should not permit the government to censor the Sierra Club's communications.

    10. Re:Right of free speech + right of association by joebok · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If you voluntarily join a group with the intent of having your opinions heard through the voice of others in that group, that is one thing. It seems entirely another thing to have the political leanings off my boss amplified through corporate profits which I help earn, whether I like it or not.

    11. Re:Right of free speech + right of association by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Exactly. That's why it's a violation of my liberty that I can't bribe my way out of traffic tickets. That I can't buy my way into a medical license. That I can't pay a judge to kick you off your home. I've got strip malls to build people. Liberty coming through, peasants!

    12. Re:Right of free speech + right of association by MindlessAutomata · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm not arguing that SCOTUS's logic is unsound. I'm arguing that even if their logic is sound, the conclusions they've reached have badly damaged the U.S., because it essentially lets rich corporations decide our laws.

      So you mean voters are easily influenced by propaganda and are unable to consider the source? I'm not sure democracy is a good idea if merely allowing corporations to speak freely or donate money to politicians, when it's the individuals that ultimately do the election.

      Anyway, the real problem here isn't corporations having freedom of speech (which I agree with, even though I'm no fan of corporations and of "individual profit without individual responsibility"), it's the entire election system itself. It's all a complete fraud. And a naive and stupid populace really has only itself to blame, not "the upper class," not "the corporations," nor anyone else subjected to the usual five minutes hate.

    13. Re:Right of free speech + right of association by Delwin · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No Corporations and Unions are different from Political Parties and Individuals in a specific way. The first two are not organized with a single set of political ideals in mind. Thus you will end up with people who's money or work go towards causes they do not believe in.

      That's the problem with allowing this. You're allowing people to multiply their voice from the work of people who do not believe in the ideal espoused.

    14. Re:Right of free speech + right of association by AdamThor · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And for that reason, the Constitution should perhaps be changed so that corporations cannot do this.

      Really, can't we just revoke corporate personhood? I'm not sure why a corporation should have a right to anything. They should have protection under law against injustice, but that isn't the same thing.

      I know, it's a pipe dream.

      --
      -- "Oh. This guy again."
    15. Re:Right of free speech + right of association by rbrander · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If I get together with a thousand like-minded individuals, we all retain our rights to free speech, and indeed, we can coordinate our speech into a single consensus message, repeated a thousand times over, significantly multiplying its effect. That was the intent of the two constitutional rights.

      The new "corporation is a legal person" doctrine, which the Union got along very well without for nearly 200 years, creates a thousand-and-first "person" and claims it has yet another set of the same civil rights - and a gigantic budget to push them with, a budget that only needs the approval of some fraction of the thousand people associating.

      The fraction doesn't have to be 50%, much less 100%. Most corporations are in fact governed by the opinions of a few dozen people that have bonuses dependent on a variation in the corporate income a few percent per year. The million people who have invested in it (900,000 of them involuntarily, they don't control where "their" pension fund puts its money) may not even be aware that "they" have decided to lobby for exporting jobs to Mexico, ripping the tops off mountains in Virginia, or the US purchasing useless, extravagant weapons systems.

      Given proper information and some real control over the corporation they "own" 0.00001% of, they would say "Hell, no, I'd rather have my pension be $1050 per month instead of $1100 if it comes at the price of sweatshops, public debt, and my favourite trout stream vanishing". But that can't possibly happen with most modern corporate governance.

      Corporations are not people. People have consciences and value other things besides money. Corporations are EXACTLY like machines running a program to maximize profit margins. They only don't run wild and consume all resources because of limiting rules, The Law. (i.e. "No sweatshops or child labour") Otherwise, people would be used up like any other available resource, worked to death.

      Giving corporations access to the law-making process is like giving a program supervisory access to the operating system, it introduces positive feedback loops guaranteed to run out of control.

      For those of a religious bent, I'd draw your attention to the source of those constitutional rights you just quoted: "They are endowed by their creator..." So, if God created your corporation, I'm OK with it having civil rights of its own. Otherwise, all the members of it still have their freedom of speech, so let them exercise it as citizens, not go inventing a new "citizen" that was not of woman born.

    16. Re:Right of free speech + right of association by rotide · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Exactly, each individual in that group can write a personal check and the leader can put them all in the same envelope with a signed letter. We don't need a faceless organization _claiming_ to hold the support of its employees contributing millions of dollars on their "behalf".

      If you want to assemble with like minded people, go for it!

      If you want to all make a large contribution supporting your ideals, go for it!

      Just make sure those contributions are from individuals and not a large organization with self serving interests and a huge coffer.

      The power needs to lie with the people, not the organization.

    17. Re:Right of free speech + right of association by JeanPaulBob · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "The SCOTUS abused the Constitution" is a different argument from "This is a bad idea--if the Constitution does protect it, we should change the Constitution."

    18. Re:Right of free speech + right of association by doconnor · · Score: 4, Informative

      I think you numbers are out of date.

      The individual limit for Canadian federal parties is $1100 and $0 for corporations/unions.

      One difference between the US and Canada is that while Canada has the right to freedom of expression in the constitution, it also says "The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society." This weakens our rights somewhat compared to the US, but avoids problems like this.

    19. Re:Right of free speech + right of association by jmorris42 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      > If you voluntarily join a group with the intent of having your opinions heard through the voice of others in that group, that is one thing.

      Curiously enough, this case was about exactly that. A group of people put together a corporation called "Citizens United" and produced a film critical of Her Majesty, Hillary Clinton. It produced the film with the intent of airing it near the election so as to influence it, that is what caused them to run afoul of McCain/Feingold. Though far too late to save this group's efforts at Free Speech the SCOTUS has finally ruled that "Congress shall make no law...." means what it says. This is considered a radical decision in our dark times.

      --
      Democrat delenda est
    20. Re:Right of free speech + right of association by Dorkmaster+Flek · · Score: 5, Insightful

      So you mean voters are easily influenced by propaganda and are unable to consider the source?

      I think that's exactly what he's saying, and I agree with him 100%.

      --
      I like to think of online DRM as something akin to a college -- you pay for lessons until you learn something.
    21. Re:Right of free speech + right of association by commodoresloat · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Exactly. There's no need to change the Constitution; only to change the ridiculous torture of the English language that allowed corporations to be defined as "persons" in the first place.

    22. Re:Right of free speech + right of association by ak3ldama · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Right of free speech + right of association = right of groups, as corporations, to speak freely.

      Yes, they do have a right to free speech. They have a right to gather. But corporations are an international entity who have no obligation to anyone except their stock holders. We are not arguing their right to free speech anyways, we are just proposing that they should have no right to place advertisements on television or radio which are governed by the FCC. They can place ads on the internet, they can release a DVD and have their movies heard in movie theaters. But they should not be able to directly sponsor advertisements on television.

      The SCOTUS' delusional thinking continues:

      Roberts, in a separate opinion, said that upholding the limits would have restrained "the vibrant public discourse that is at the foundation of our democracy."

      Luckily: It leaves in place a ban prohibiting corporations and unions from directly contributing funds to candidates for any use.

      --
      "but money is the God of Algiers & Mahomet their prophet." - Rich. O'Bryen June 8th 1786
    23. Re:Right of free speech + right of association by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 3, Informative

      No Corporations and Unions are different from Political Parties and Individuals in a specific way. The first two are not organized with a single set of political ideals in mind. Thus you will end up with people who's money or work go towards causes they do not believe in. .

      Except that the Corporation in this case was organized with a single set of political ideals in mind. The Corporation in this case was Citizen's United. The Corporation was formed to create a film critical of Hillary Clinton.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    24. Re:Right of free speech + right of association by oneTheory · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I like what you had to say. Corporations are not people and should not have the rights as such. I think someone once said a closer approximation to corporations would be foreign governments operating within our borders, and they should be treated diplomatically as foreign entities, nurtured by our laws, but without access to our political system that citizens have.

      If you want to organize citizens for the purpose of influencing government fine, but this is not that. I like your programming analogy.

    25. Re:Right of free speech + right of association by jmorris42 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      > We limit individuals to a maximum $5000 donation. We limit corporations to a maximum $1000 donation.

      > Contrast this with quotes I remember of saying that the 2008 presidential election in the states ran in excess of a billion dollars.

      I'd like to object to the entire premise behind your inane argument. We need MORE money in politics, not less. Think about it. Yes President Obama set a record haul of a billion dollars in the '08 campaign but so freaking what. Just means my team is going to have to up its fundraising game next time if we want to compete. Nike spent 1.7 billion in marketing for shows and otherwise ordinary apparel except for a swoosh logo. The argument over who leads the free world is at least as important as the question of which shoes to wear.

      Money == speech. Any restriction of one implies a restriction on the other. With unlimited contributions, paired with solid disclosure (an idea which the SCOTUS upheld today) laws, perhaps candidates would need to spend less time whoring at endless fundraisers and more time campaigning and/or reading the bills they are voting on.

      --
      Democrat delenda est
    26. Re:Right of free speech + right of association by cayenne8 · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Hmm...time for a constitutional amendment maybe?

      Let's band together to put a fix in for the money that is taking over (strike that HAS taken over) our federal government.

      1. Lets roll back the one that let senators be elected directly by the people rather than be appointed by the state. This will take the money out of Senate elections.

      2. Let's define who can or cannot give money to a candidate/party. Or, let's just mandate that elected officials campaigns are strictly funded by public funding, and mandate possible that during an election season a minimum of X hours are available on all networks for debates, commercials...by the candidates.

      While it is a bitch to get an amendment through (and rightly so), it appears this is the only way We The People can tame this beast.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    27. Re:Right of free speech + right of association by GooberToo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      They should just put a hard limit in place that applies to everyone. 1000 dollars per individual or group with the group representing any multitude of individuals. Would apply to any business, PAC, Union etc.

      And no group can contribute which represents an individual who has already contributed. Otherwise, as is, these groups are allowed to contribute twice. They need to be forced to contribute as one or the other, but not both.

    28. Re:Right of free speech + right of association by cmiller173 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If you voluntarily join a group with the intent of having your opinions heard through the voice of others in that group, that is one thing. It seems entirely another thing to have the political leanings off my boss amplified through corporate profits which I help earn, whether I like it or not.

      Actually your having helped earn the profits is irrelevant, the profits are not yours... The profits belong to the stockholders(or owners in a non-public company) and the corporation represents their interests NOT your interests. Your an employee not a stockholder or at least your not thinking like a stockholder. If you are a stockholder and the corporation is behaving in a manner that violates their fiduciary duty to the stockholders then you have a right to make that claim at the annual meeting (or a court of law) and try to convince others that the board needs to be ousted and a better board elected. You do not have that right as an employee.

    29. Re:Right of free speech + right of association by corbettw · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Those corporate profits belong to the owners (shareholders) of the corporation, not the employees (except, obviously, in cases where the groups overlap). Don't like it? Go get a different job or start your own business. In either case, stop whining because your boss' political views don't mesh with your own.

      --
      God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
    30. Re:Right of free speech + right of association by PopeRatzo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Thanks, rbrander. You said that better than I could.

      Unlike the internet and computers and telephones and automobiles, there were big corporations in 1776 and they were already working overtime to influence governments all over the world. And rich people were already buying government power when the founders sat down to right our Constitution and later the Bill of Rights.

      It was not by accident that you don't see any reference to money in the First Amendment. Which, in its entirety reads:

      Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

      You see religion and the free exercise thereof, and speech, and the press, and assembly, and petition for redress of grievances.

      You see not a word about "giving money to..." or "buying..." or "political contributions" in that famous amendment.

      The notion that money=speech and that corporation=person or even that organizations have the same civil rights as individuals does not appear until after money and corporate power in the US had already deeply corrupted our government.

      I'm hopeful, though, that a significant number of legislators, some from both political parties, said today that they intend to codify into law limitations on corporate money in our electoral process. The belief that a solid wall between corporate power and government needs to exist is one that crosses partisan lines.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    31. Re:Right of free speech + right of association by OnlineAlias · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And your inane argument contends that the current way is the best way. They are out whoring themselves because they need money to win. If they didn't have to compete against others who had massive war chests then they wouldn't need the money. Then they would need to go out and whore themselves to get VOTES, which is exactly what I want them to do.

      Your argument is that if you flood them with money, well, then they won't have to go out and get it. Well yes, but now who are they whores to? Who opened the flood gates? Yes, the corporations, not the people.

    32. Re:Right of free speech + right of association by blackraven14250 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      For what purposes, really, should a corporation be given the rights of individuals? They aren't an individual. They are a tool created to maximize profits.

    33. Re:Right of free speech + right of association by PopeRatzo · · Score: 2

      So you mean voters are easily influenced by propaganda and are unable to consider the source?

      Of course voters are easily influenced by propaganda.

      And there's an entire industry devoted to obscuring the sources of political propaganda.

      Fortunately, decisions by the Supreme Court are nothing more or less than interpretations of the Constitution. At various times, the Supreme Court has interpreted the Constitution to mean that black people should get a lesser vote than whites, or that women should get no vote at all. They've decided that "equality" meant that you could have completely segregated schools. And fortunately, the other branches of government have lots of ways to close loopholes created by out-of-whack Courts.

      This argument is a long way from over. Especially since the decision today does not allow for unfettered contributions by corporations. For example, the Roberts Court decided that it the ban on direct contributions by corporations to candidates can still be limited. Basically, all the decision today said was that the McCain/Feingold bill wasn't written well enough. With the wild populist fervor going around the US today, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if a new law was passed pretty quickly, since there are significant numbers of legislators from both parties that disagree with today's opinion.

      it's the entire election system itself. It's all a complete fraud.

      I agree completely.

      And a naive and stupid populace really has only itself to blame

      Yes and no. We're long past the point where any part of the US government is "by, of and for the people" and with the concentrated ownership of corporate media, there's little chance that any citizen, even someone with high opinion of their own intellect such as yourself, can be a really informed voter. Corporate power and the efficacy of marketing technology has us totally outgunned. The only solution is the political, non-violent equivalent of asymmetrical warfare. The fact that so many working class, "low-information" voters came out into the streets last summer with signs and teabags and screaming in the faces of politicians is actually a good sign. It shows that they can be willing to perform some socially transgressive acts in order to be heard. As I've said before, if they can be dissuaded from their racism and anti-intellect bias, and as they increasing learn who the real enemy of representative government is, they can be part of a real revolutionary movement for positive change.

      I wouldn't be a bit surprised to learn that a few years down the road the teabaggers and the dirty leftist hippies like myself find some common cause.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    34. Re:Right of free speech + right of association by Hasai · · Score: 4, Insightful

      ....And how is this different from having the political leanings of my UNION boss amplified through UNION DUES which I have to pay, whether I like it or not?

      --

      Regards;

      Hasai

    35. Re:Right of free speech + right of association by BlueStraggler · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Actually your having helped earn the profits is irrelevant, the profits are not yours...

      It is actually hugely relevant. Corporations are anti-democratic, semi-feudal domains that assign all ultimate rights to an ownership class. Everyone else is a serf, who either works silently or is evicted from the estate. SCOTUS has decided that this sort of entity is a first-class participant in a modern democracy, which is disgusting, but then again, I'm not an American, so I'm a bit behind the times. In my own admittedly backwards country, the only legitimate participants in a democracy are citizens who can vote.

      Corporations, shareholders, and boards of directors do not have democratic interests. The corporation itself is merely a legal proxy for the purposes of sharing property and liability. To the shareholders, the corporation is a money-making investment, like real estate or gold. It doesn't make sense to give your condominium the right to interfere in political debate, so why would you do such a thing for any other piece of investment-grade property? The directors do not share the interests of their corporations; they are duty-bound to ensure that shareholders get proper value from their investments, that is all. They are perfectly capable (in fact, are probably more capable) of ensuring that shareholders don't get defrauded if they treat their corporation like an untrustworthy, slightly dangerous animal, not like their liege lord.

      Corporations do, however, have some inherent interests of their own that cannot be projected by proxy onto any of their human servants. For example, they are immortal. They can also reside in many cities and countries simultaneously. They are invulnerable to both conventional and nuclear weapons. They use these attributes to skirt and abuse laws that were designed for humans who have none of these characteristics. You know that these same corporations that are claiming the rights of people in the USA, will also be claiming that they are not governed by US law when it comes time to pay taxes or clean up their environmental messes.

    36. Re:Right of free speech + right of association by jmorris42 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      > Why not have it this way...by constitutional amendment. The funding for the political candidates
      > (parties and all) are strictly from a fixed public funding scheme. That keeps them equal in
      > everything but planning how best to use the funds and what they have to say.

      Are you insane or just really stupid? Sorry to flame but really. So only the candidates can speak during election season? And only with a very fixed budget.

      So the press must cease all coverage of political races during election season, instead airing only paid advertising? Debates would be paid advertising from the candidates budgets. All politically themed Internet sites, bloggers, mailing lists, etc. not paid for by a candidate would be go silent during campaign season. No book, movie, documentary, etc. that can possibly be contrued as having a political theme that could impact on a race could be published or aired during campaign season. Is that really what you are arguing for? Because if you aren't your scheme becomes an Epic Fail and if you are you have zero clue what being an American is about.

      --
      Democrat delenda est
    37. Re:Right of free speech + right of association by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It really isn't. Sadly, unions have become little more than corporations within corporations. This is why I love right-to-work states, where no one can make me join a union.

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    38. Re:Right of free speech + right of association by Terwin · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There might be a little less of that 'anti-intellect bias' if the self-proclaimed intellectuals did not spend so much time looking down their noses at those who prefer learning practical skills as opposed to esoteric ones, and stop considering everyone who chooses physical labor as ignorant. Painting them as racists does not help much either.

      For example, I know one lady who has a part-time job taking care of plants at home depot. She also works in the Anthropology department of the State University and is pursuing a graduate degree in forensic anthropology. But many of people who see her taking care of the plants at home Depot probably think she is just some ignorant farmer...

      My sister has a degree in Mechanical Engineering, Spent a tour of duty in the Air force working on the next generation cruise missile, and now is a farrier and farmer.

      If you look past those labels you have pasted on them, you might find you have much more in common that you ever thought...

    39. Re:Right of free speech + right of association by joebok · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I am not whining because my boss and I have different political views. In fact, I applaud that - that is what it means to live in a free country.

      Just because I associate with somebody for the purposes of earning wages does not mean I should be compelled to give them a proxy to my right of free speech.

    40. Re:Right of free speech + right of association by aaandre · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I've got strip malls to build people.

      And we love you for that. We are total whores for the lower priced lower quality crap your minimum wage employees will sell to us! And by buying it, we vote for you!

    41. Re:Right of free speech + right of association by lgw · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So to you, Frredom of the Press mean "Freedom to print what SETIGuy thinks is the truth"? Freedom to print what the Party in Power agrees is the truth? There's a Soviet Russia joke in there somewhere ...

      Eveything in politics is lies. There is no truth to be found - it's all advocacy. Freedom of the press means that anyone who owns a press can tell any lies they want to, short of actual libel (and the bar for libel in political speech is rightfully extremely high).

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    42. Re:Right of free speech + right of association by arminw · · Score: 2, Insightful

      ...Corporations, shareholders, and boards of directors do not have democratic interests....

      That is plainly an utterly false. All corporations that I have ever heard of are run by people. Corporations do not vote, only people, including their employees vote. Corporations can only persuade people to vote. The very word corporation comes from corpus which means body. A corporation is a body of real-life voting people, who have some sort of common bond. The right of people to form a common bond group is just as fundamental as the right to speak.

      --
      All theory is gray
    43. Re:Right of free speech + right of association by Darinbob · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Much of the time the corporations aren't claiming they speak for the employees, they just want to grease the skids for business purposes. Ie, influence legislation about regulations, etc. There are cases though where the head of a corporation wants to give to more obviously political causes; such as on abortion issues, but I wonder what percentage of corporate donations fall into that category.

      The rationale may be that "free-speech + freedom-of-association" implies corporate citizenship, but very often it's just a tiny minority of people in the corporation making these decisions, and sometimes it's just a single person with control of a lot of money created by other people. That can be a real problem if a single person is the one who is saying "FrobozzCo is in favor of euthanasia so we're donating $12m to the Kevorkian campaign", or just a board of directors, etc. In other words there's not always an association of people making these contributions.

      If I went around with several people collecting money for the orphans, and then gave it all to a political candidate, we'd get in serious legal trouble! That's because the people giving the money expected a certain service in exchange for that money. Similarly why shouldn't a corporation that takes the money given by customers and made by their employees and gives to a political candidate without inform or consent also be in hot water?

      When it comes to business-oriented campaign donations, theoretically this can be balanced by competing groups of interests. The snag is that corporations have immensely more power than these other groups, and far deeper pockets. It used to be trade unions were occasionally seen as a balance, but these have been significantly weakened over time. Union members are also much more likely to be able to restrict union leadership from supporting political causes than company employees are able to influence their own management. Other groups, such as consumer advocacy, charities, etc, have very little power in relation to corporations. So this is the reason corporate limits on campaign donations came about in the first place.

    44. Re:Right of free speech + right of association by PopeRatzo · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Considering corporations don't vote and only individuals do, you have a very poor case

      You're right, corporations don't vote, so how can they be considered "persons" when it comes to civil rights if they don't have the right to vote?

      If they can't participate in elections as voters, then they shouldn't participate in elections as buyers.

      you fear corporate influence because you're afraid of voters responding in a way you don't like

      And you fear that without the vast sums of corporate dollars, voters might not decide in the way you like.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    45. Re:Right of free speech + right of association by pugugly · · Score: 2, Informative

      Neat theory. Except attempts to legally enforce the rights of the stockholder to exert control over the corporation he or she putatively owns have been fought tooth and nail by the very corporations they own, with the battles payed for by the profits of those very stockholders.

      If the corporations interest were solely aligned with it's stockholders, this would not and indeed *could* not be the case.

      Pug

      --
      An Invisible Entity of Vast Power whose existence must be taken on faith alone: Liberal Media
    46. Re:Right of free speech + right of association by pugugly · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Oh, *obviously*. Objections to the concept of Billions Dollars in corporate assets that are putatively owned by the stockholders being thrown towards any political objective the CEO chooses (Including of course fighting against the legal rights of the stockholders to control the messages their money is backing) is, of course, *exactly* like my, rather than simply debating someone I disagree with in a public stadium, using the government to suppress their free speech completely.

      other than the fact that the Corporation can afford to buy every seat in the stadium, and owns the newspaper, television station, and the mortgage on your house.

      Yeah. Obviously identical.

      Pug

      --
      An Invisible Entity of Vast Power whose existence must be taken on faith alone: Liberal Media
    47. Re:Right of free speech + right of association by mcgrew · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You can quit at any time.

      Yeah, if you don't mind being hungry and homeless. You're either still in high school, or independantly wealthy. In any case, your comment is trollish flamebait, which I'm sure is why you posted anonymously.

      You win the award for the most ignorant comment of the day, congrats.

    48. Re:Right of free speech + right of association by mcgrew · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Sadly, unions have become little more than corporations within corporations.

      The difference is, the corpration represents the stockholders, my union represents ME and is there to protect my interests, and collectively bargain in my and my co-workers' behalf. Its leaders are elected by the me and my fellow union members, and if they use my dues for purposes that I do not approve of, I can vote them out of office, or even run for that office myself.

      Were it not for unions I'd have no paid vacation, no weekends off, no sick leave, far lower pay (notice that RTW states have lower wages than non-RTW states), and if I had a boss who treated me unfairly I would have no recourse except to find a new job.

      "Right to work" is relly "right to exploit".

  5. Re:Constitution? by FooAtWFU · · Score: 3, Funny

    Then perhaps we should amend it! In the meantime, free speech (and a free press) isn't just a good idea: it's the law.

    --
    The World Wide Web is dying. Soon, we shall have only the Internet.
  6. Re:Constitution? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Why?

    Do you believe individuals should have the right to spend money on campaigns? (I do; your money, do with it as you wish.) If you do, then why shouldn't groups of individuals have the right to decide as a group what to do with money owned by the group, using whatever governance structure the group has previously agreed to?

  7. I for one, welcome our Chinese Overlords by TubeSteak · · Score: 5, Insightful

    [Chief Justice] Roberts said he was not prepared to "embrace a theory of the 1st Amendment that would allow censorship not only of television and radio broadcasts, but of pamphlets, posters, the Internet and virtually any other medium that corporations and unions might find useful in expressing their views on matters of public concern."

    But [Justice] Stevens and the dissenters said the majority was ignoring the long-understood rule that the government could limit election money from corporations, unions and others, such as foreign governments. "Under today's decision, multinational corporations controlled by foreign governments" would have the same rights as Americans to spend money to tilt U.S. elections. "Corporations are not human beings. They can't vote and can't run for office," Stevens said, and should be subject to restrictions under the election laws.

    Maybe China now has something useful to do with the trillion+ dollars they have burning a hole in their pocket.

    --
    [Fuck Beta]
    o0t!
    1. Re:I for one, welcome our Chinese Overlords by EzInKy · · Score: 2, Interesting


      Too bad they don't fix their country for their people with it.

      They've been saving it to "fix" ours B-)

      --
      Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
    2. Re:I for one, welcome our Chinese Overlords by SETIGuy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      A foreign corporation will no longer need to donate to a PAC in order to make political contributions. Following this ruling it can buy advertising directly.

      Therefore the rules applying to contributions to a PAC don't apply to the discussion at hand.

  8. Fair enough... by Seakip18 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Since corporations are able to possess the 1st amendment as a whole body, are they not entitled the remaining amendments?

    Ok, that IS crazy. But what isn't is that, come election time, I wouldn't be surprised if pink slips get issued in order to free up some money to run messages for/against our tastycrats and fingerlick'ans.

    "It's going to be the Wild Wild West," said Ben Ginsberg, a Republican attorney who has represented several GOP presidential campaigns. "If corporations and unions can give unlimited amounts ... it means that the public debate is significantly changed with a lot more voices and it means that the loudest voices are going to be corporations and unions."

    I have to agree.

    Corporations and unions have been given the right to buy who ever they want without any back alley deals...as long as the money doesn't go directly to or is coordinated by candidate.

    --
    import system.cool.Sig;
  9. Re:Constitution? by Captain+Splendid · · Score: 5, Funny

    then clearly the Constitution is defective.

    You're thinking about this the wrong way. The constitution is not defective. Finally, all this anti-corporate ideology is on the wane, and true social equality will soon be reached when we get a corporation as a supreme court justice.

    --
    Linux, you magnificent bastard, I read the fucking manual!
  10. Welcome! by Profane+MuthaFucka · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I, for one, welcome our new psychopathic, immortal, politically empowered, corporate-person overlords!

    --
    Fascism trolls keeping me up every night. When I starts a preachin', he HITS ME WITH HIS REICH!
  11. Before the blame game begins... by whatajoke · · Score: 3, Insightful

    And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. I know why you did it. I know you were afraid. Who wouldn't be? War, terror, disease. There were a myriad of problems which conspired to corrupt your reason and rob you of your common sense. Fear got the best of you, and in your panic you turned to the now high chancellor, Adam Sutler. He promised you order, he promised you peace, and all he demanded in return was your silent, obedient consent.
    - V

  12. Re:Constitution? by killmenow · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's not the Constitution that's defective. It's the Supreme Court ruling in 1886 that effectively gave corporations personhood. THAT is what needs to be overturned.

  13. Re:Welcome to Fascism by ScentCone · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The U(F)SA is now a de facto fascist state.

    (citation needed)

    Or, perhaps just a functioning definition of the word "fascist," which you clearly don't have. Idiot.

    --
    Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
  14. Re:So much for government by the people by maxume · · Score: 2, Insightful

    That's still government by the people.

    --
    Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
  15. America's downfall was person == corp by WindBourne · · Score: 5, Insightful

    A corp has no real responsibility, no sense of morals, and rarely ever is punished for many of its crimes. ANd yet, we equate it to man. That single warped logic is killing us.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    1. Re:America's downfall was person == corp by ahodgson · · Score: 5, Informative

      The debt overhang is a lot worse than it was during the depression. Unemployment is getting pretty close - it was 25% during the depression and U6 is probably over 20% now. On the other hand, during the depression the US still had a lot of it's own oil, manufactured its own stuff, and exported real things. So, honestly, it's a lot worse this time than the depression. It's just being propped up by trillions of dollars of government borrowing. It falls apart when people stop lending you that money. I don't know if it'll happen this time, but it won't be that far in the future.

      House prices still have a ways to fall. The Federal Reserve basically bought every mortgage issued in 2009. When they stop, interest rates go up.

      Keep in mind in your depression comparison that it's only about 1930 now .. give it a few more years.

      # "The spring of 1930 marks the end of a period of grave concern...American business is steadily coming back to a normal level of prosperity."
      - Julius Barnes, head of Hoover's National Business Survey Conference, Mar 16, 1930

      "... the outlook continues favorable..."
      - HES Mar 29, 1930

      # "... the outlook is favorable..."
      - HES Apr 19, 1930

      # "While the crash only took place six months ago, I am convinced we have now passed through the worst -- and with continued unity of effort we shall rapidly recover. There has been no significant bank or industrial failure. That danger, too, is safely behind us."
      - Herbert Hoover, President of the United States, May 1, 1930

      "...by May or June the spring recovery forecast in our letters of last December and November should clearly be apparent..."
      - HES May 17, 1930

      "Gentleman, you have come sixty days too late. The depression is over."
      - Herbert Hoover, responding to a delegation requesting a public works program to help speed the recovery, June 1930

      # "... irregular and conflicting movements of business should soon give way to a sustained recovery..."
      - HES June 28, 1930

      # "... the present depression has about spent its force..."
      - HES, Aug 30, 1930

      # "We are now near the end of the declining phase of the depression."
      - HES Nov 15, 1930

      # "Stabilization at [present] levels is clearly possible."
      - HES Oct 31, 1931

    2. Re:America's downfall was person == corp by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Politicians die. Corporations don't have to. Politicians still have to count the votes of others. Corporations just count money. There's the difference that makes it flabbergasting that people still try to equate people and corporations.

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    3. Re:America's downfall was person == corp by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That's because the subsequent credit waves haven't hit yet.

      The one I'm really not looking forward to is when the principle comes due on the companies purchased in the last few years by private equity. They used to be called junk bond kings. The last time they went on a spending spree fully half of the companies they bought at the peak went bankrupt, triggering the S&L crisis. They went on a much, much bigger spree this time. If half those companies go bankrupt, and half of the employees at those bankrupt companies lose their jobs in restructuring, we start with losing as many jobs as the current recession, plus we get a credit crunch the same size as the current recession. Said credit crunch will hurt jobs even more. This is on top of our other problems, during a period where government has less room than it did in the last round for forceful action.

      This wave of bankruptcies starts in 2011, and will really gather steam in 2012. It isn't Obama's fault, but it will happen on Obama's watch, and therefore I'm betting on a Republican sweep in that election.

      You can rest easy with your confidence in the government. Me, I've been around and know enough people on Wall St to know that the people in charge have no real idea how they are going to handle this disaster.

  16. NOT REALLY THE PROBLEM by tjstork · · Score: 2, Insightful

    At issue is that under the Constitution, the Federal Government has no explicit power to regulate even political campaign donations.

    --
    This is my sig.
  17. Re:Constitution? by dyfet · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The problem is that corporations are legal fictions which seem to have been given all of the rights of real people, but with NONE of the consequences or responsibilities. Freedom without responsibility is social destruction.

  18. Re:Constitution? by rahvin112 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The problem isn't the constitution. The courts ruling is correct. The problem is that Congress declared Corporations "persons" under US law. Give them the legal recognition of a person and they have all the rights too. Congress can undo this by simply making Corporations a legal entity that isn't a "person" under US law. Unfortunately this will never happen because to many people in congress benefit from corporations being "persons". It gives corporations all the benefits of being a "person" without any of the risks (such as going to jail). Congress did this, not the courts.

  19. Both good and bad ways aspects by JoshuaZ · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I haven't read the decision and the dissent yet, but I'm fascinated by how immediately negative the comments prior to this one are, especially the comments that try to argue that corporations should have fewer free speech rights than people. Part of the nature of free speech is that there's always some category that one would often not want to apply it to. For the Slashdot crowd that seems to be corporations. But the whole point of robust free speech is that you give it to any who want to use it. Concern over what this will do to elections is understandable as a policy concern but that's a pragmatic consideration that shouldn't impact such basic philosophical decisions. Moreover, what this really does is level the playing field between corporations. As it is now, Fox or MSNBC or any major newspaper can effectively push for a candidate or policy they want simply by the bias in their coverage. But a corporation that isn't involved in "news" or the like has its hands tied. And as for the impact this might have on elections: It should be apparent from the election of Obama that if a lot of people actually care about a candidate they can give in both time and money a lot more than even many large corporations. Of course, that candidate might then turn around and sell people out, but that's a separate problem...

    1. Re:Both good and bad ways aspects by etymxris · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Free speech for individuals is great. The problem is that corporations are not people and money is not speech.

    2. Re:Both good and bad ways aspects by EzInKy · · Score: 2, Interesting


      Moreover, what this really does is level the playing field between corporations.

      Yes, it does level the playing field...

      "Under today's decision, multinational corporations controlled by foreign governments would have the same rights as Americans to spend money to tilt U.S. elections."

      -Justice Stevens, dissenting.

      --
      Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
    3. Re:Both good and bad ways aspects by MindlessAutomata · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Money IS speech, or more accurately, money is used to buy the means of speech. Last election we saw Ron Paul (however you feel about him) have supporters pay for a blimp, newspaper advertisements, and donated a record amount of money to try to promote him. You can no more expect a grassroots politicians to rise up without money than you can expect a business to do well without advertising.

      If you take money out of speech, then it's media interest and bias alone that controls the elections, because they are the gatekeepers to what most people see and hear.

      If your argument is that only individuals have freedom of speech, then you cannot argue that any group of people has freedom of speech, and that includes lobbying groups of any kind (including those that are truly political and want change in civil liberties, such as, say, a group like NORML or the EFF). You can't pick and choose what type.

  20. Free sppech? by mweather · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If corporations want to be individuals, it's time we start taxing them like individuals.

    1. Re:Free sppech? by j79zlr · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You cannot tax a corporation. Increased tax burdens just trickle down to reduced wages for low level employees and increased prices. I'm not sure why that is so hard for people to get.

      --
      I'm not not licking toads.
    2. Re:Free sppech? by John+Newman · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You cannot tax a corporation. Increased tax burdens just trickle down to reduced wages for low level employees and increased prices. I'm not sure why that is so hard for people to get.

      You cannot tax me. Increased tax burdens just trickle down to less disposable income to spend on cars and cable tv and smaller tips for low level employees like delivery boys and waitstaff. I'm not sure why that is so hard for corporations to get.

  21. Re:A great victory for free speech! by twmcneil · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Exactly! And those individuals do not require a corporation has a vehicle to exercise their constitutional rights. They can do that already as individuals. What's next? Giving corporations the right to vote?

    --
    "The ferrets, they're every where I tell you!"
  22. citation by RelliK · · Score: 3, Informative

    Here you go, idiot.

    "Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.

    --
    ___
    If you think big enough, you'll never have to do it.
    1. Re:citation by rolfwind · · Score: 2, Informative

      I already read many times that no one can track down the quote:
      http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Talk:Benito_Mussolini

    2. Re:citation by ScentCone · · Score: 2, Funny

      companies don't have to disclose contributions in advance

      So, why would you invest in a company that has a board of directors you don't trust? Why would you hold onto stock in a company that operates according to principles with which you disagree?

      And - just to be clear, here - most corporations aren't publicly held anyway. Most are small operations, privately held. If a candiate is swearing that their purpose in life is to get elected and outlaw (for example) restaurants that serve pork ... why shouldn't the guy and his wife that incorporated to start a BBQ joint be able to run an ad saying that perhaps this guy shouldn't be elected?

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
  23. Re:Constitution? by SnapShot · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Good point. Since corporations were granted their personhood in 1884 there has never been a corporation as President or even Governor. By now we should have seen a Senator Dow Chemical or a Representative Monstanto, but there's obviously a pervasive bias in the system that keeps corporations down.

    Sure, they have nearly infinite amounts of money, are essentially immortal, require no sleep, clean water, fresh air, or safe food, and have two political parties and 60% of the Supreme Court at their beck and call. But, could that have ever made up for the pain they must have felt knowing that they couldn't fully exercise their 1st Amendment Rights?

    Thank God the Roberts Court has righted this injustice and ended over a century of disenfranchisement of our most vulnerable pseudo-citizens.

    --
    Waltz, nymph, for quick jigs vex Bud.
  24. Re:Welcome to Fascism by nebaz · · Score: 4, Informative

    From wikipedia

    Fascism, pronounced /fæzm/, is a political ideology that seeks to combine radical and authoritarian nationalism with a corporatist economic system, and which is usually considered to be on the far right of the traditional left-right political spectrum.

    To speak: This ruling allows corporations unlimited spending, which tends toward corparatism. The fact that the Executive Branch's power has grown after 9/11, and has not retracted under Obama, along with the "you are with us or against us" patriotic thuggery from the far right, has the US tending toward (though not there yet, thankfully) authoritarian nationalism. Finally, the conservative judges made this possible, along with the far right being the harbinger of the nationalism, and we are well on our way.

    --
    Rhymes that keep their secrets will unfold behind the clouds.There upon the rainbow is the answer to a neverending story
  25. Re:Welcome to Fascism by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The U(F)SA is now a de facto fascist state.

    Because remember, kids, "fascist" means "something I personally don't approve of."

  26. Corporations are Individuals by rotide · · Score: 5, Insightful

    [A U.S.] Supreme Court ruling in 1886 ... arguably set the stage for the full-scale development of the culture of capitalism, by handing to corporations the right to use their economic power in a way they never had before. Relying on the Fourteenth Amendment, added to the Constitution in 1868 to protect the rights of freed slaves, the Court ruled that a private corporation is a natural person under the U.S. Constitution, and consequently has the same rights and protection extended to persons by the Bill of Rights, including the right to free speech. Thus corporations were given the same “rights” to influence the government in their own interests as were extended to individual citizens, paving the way for corporations to use their wealth to dominate public thought and discourse. The debates in the United States in the 1990s over campaign finance reform, in which corporate bodies can “donate” millions of dollars to political candidates stem from this ruling although rarely if ever is that mentioned. Thus, corporations, as “persons,” were free to lobby legislatures, use the mass media, establish educational institutions such as many business schools founded by corporate leaders in the early twentieth century, found charitable organizations to convince the public of their lofty intent, and in general construct an image that they believed would be in their best interests. All of this in the interest of “free speech.” — Richard Robbins, Global Problems and the Culture of Capitalism, (Allyn and Bacon, 1999), p.100

    Personally, in my opinion, that's where it went downhill. A corporation doesn't need rights as an individual. If a corporation needs to speak it has many members which can be enabled to speak for it.

    The problem is that the voice of a business has no bearing on the amount of individuals it represents but merely by the amount of money it can throw. If a business representing 100,000 employees only has $100,000 to contribute it won't even be registered against a tiny company of 5 people that can contribute $1,000,000,000.

    If there were reasonable caps to contributions, say, $1,000 per person (people) and _no_ corporations were allowed to contribute, then the people get the power back. If a large corporation wants to push an issue, they can lobby their own employees to contribute to their cause, but the choice would again be with the individual people.

    I mean honestly, if I have $300 to contribute to a politician I support, how in the world is that going to compare to a $10,000,000 contribution from Big Media when they are leaning in the opposite direction on an issue?

    I'm not saying "the people" have had any real power for a long time (when compared to big business), but this just skews it even farther away from us.

    Sad day to be an American...

    1. Re:Corporations are Individuals by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If there were reasonable caps to contributions, say, $1,000 per person (people) and _no_ corporations were allowed to contribute, then the people get the power back. .

      So, if I want to spend $2,000 (of my money) to rent an auditorium to stand up and tell everyone who shows up how terrible a particular political candidate is, "Sorry, that's more than $1,000, you can't say that"?

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
  27. Free Speech by gd2shoe · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Why do you draw a distinction between "free speech" and "political speech"? Surely our founding fathers wanted to talk freely about politics. That's the whole point. (I'm sure there's a reason you said that, I just don't see it.)

    --
    I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
  28. Liberty what? by metrometro · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Just to be clear: we're giving one set of institutions which do not have a mandate to respond to individuals (corporations) control over another set of institutions (government) which, uh, used to. And we're doing this in the name of... more liberty for people? Let me know how that works out for you...

  29. Re:Welcome to Fascism by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 2, Informative

    Ur Fascism (Umberto Eco) I'm not sure that it's a terribly useful definition for the internet. It, is however, a definition.

    The closest Eco comes to denouncing corporatism is in this paragraph.

    13. Ur-Fascism is based upon a selective populism, a qualitative populism, one might say. In a democracy, the citizens have individual rights, but the citizens in their entirety have a political impact only from a quantitative point of view – one follows the decisions of the majority. For Ur-Fascism, however, individuals as individuals have no rights, and the People is conceived as a quality, a monolithic entity expressing the Common Will. Since no large quantity of human beings can have a common will, the Leader pretends to be their interpreter. Having lost their power of delegation, citizens do not act; they are only called on to play the role of the People. Thus the People is only a theatrical fiction. To have a good instance of qualitative populism we no longer need the Piazza Venezia in Rome or the Nuremberg Stadium. There is in our future a TV or Internet populism, in which the emotional response of a selected group of citizens can be presented and accepted as the Voice of the People.

  30. Re:Constitution? by tbannist · · Score: 2, Informative

    I'm not sure where you're getting your information, according to theWikipedia article on it, it looks like corporate personhood was decided in the courts.

    --
    Fanatically anti-fanatical
  31. Re:Constitution? by Spazmania · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I believe that individuals (i.e. real persons with citizenship) should have the right to spend any or all of their money on campaigns.

    I believe they and I should have the right to band together and do so as a group.

    I do not believe that my or your rights are in any way trampled merely by forcing structural separation between the groups banded together for the purpose of political persuasion and the groups banded together for for the purpose of buying, selling and producing products.

    Nor should you have any difficulty understanding why groups organized primarily for buying and selling have such a corruptive influence on the process of political persuasion.

    --
    Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
  32. Re:Constitution? by natehoy · · Score: 2, Informative

    What you are referring to is an existing construct. A PAC (Political Action Committee), SIG (Special Interest Group) or other political collective. The names and rules surrounding such organizations vary by state, but by and large they are formed around a goal and their members have bought into the goal. Those groups DO have the right to free speech, specifically their political speech is not regulated, simply because their governance structures are required to be transparent, and they have to have a clear paper trail as to where their money came from (lists of donors, etc). In other words, these organizations are treated as you describe - a group of individuals who have the right to decide as a group what to do with their collective funds.

    However, a PAC/SIG/etc has to be a transparent. They have to be demonstrably a collective that is freely contributed to by individual citizens who have input as to the goals of that collective (even if their only input is "I like your ideals and I wish to give you money.") All members of a political organization have to have voluntarily joined the organization and it cannot be a condition of employment and/or other coercion cannot be applied.

    This is vastly different from the organization of a company or a union. Those organizations do not have to be held accountable to the voters as to whether the will of their shareholders or sources of income are comfortable with the money being spent in political campaigns, and do not have to share their sources of income.

    Separating "political" from "free" speech is a cast iron bitch, though.

    --
    "This post contains words, known to the State of California to cause thought. Wash brain thoroughly after reading."
  33. Re:A great victory for free speech! by EzInKy · · Score: 4, Insightful


    Corporations are voluntary contracts between individuals, and those individuals have rights, period. If some of you Slashdot commies fail to comprehend that, that is your problem and yours alone.

    "Under today's decision, multinational corporations controlled by foreign governments" would have the same rights as Americans to spend money to tilt U.S. elections."

    -Justice Stevens, dissenting.

    --
    Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
  34. So, does this mean foreign corporations can too? by leoxx · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Non-American here, just wondering if this means foreign corporations can now open shell businesses in the US and spend billions of dollars to influence US elections to favour their own companies or countries? I guess in the past they would have had to convince actual US citizens (or pay lobbyists) to do the influencing for them, they can now do so pretty much directly without the middle man. Interesting.

  35. This decision is horrible by GodfatherofSoul · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...as in "end of the Republic" horrible. We just greased the slide to a complete fall into Fascism.

    --
    I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
  36. Google by gd2shoe · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Maybe if we had a major, concerted, write in campaign in a strategic region, we can get Google* elected to Congress. (I'm wondering what it would look like trying to get Google to raise it's right hand to be sworn in!) That would then give others the ability to challenge the election in the courts.

    We do need someway to break this "corporations as people" mentality.

    *(Recognizable, electable, and less likely than others to abuse the power during time in office. Still carries a huge risk, I know.)

    --
    I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
  37. Re:Constitution? by jollyreaper · · Score: 2, Interesting

    You're thinking about this the wrong way. The constitution is not defective. Finally, all this anti-corporate ideology is on the wane, and true social equality will soon be reached when we get a corporation as a supreme court justice

    Why own the cow when you get the milk for free?

    --
    Kwisatz Haderach
    Sell the spice to CHOAM
    This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
  38. Re:Constitution? by SETIGuy · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Re-posting. Didn't mean to post anonymously.

    If the U.S. Constitution ensures the free speech rights of corporations, as the SCOTUS has judged, then clearly the Constitution is defective.

    No, the SCOTUS is defective. Talk about legislating from the bench... Talk about deciding issues that weren't before the court...

    If you'll remember the court decided to take this case even though it hadn't been appealed to the Supreme Court, and even though the Court wasn't in session at the time. The question before the court was "Do the makers of an hour long politically motivated attack ad need to disclose who funded of the ad as is required by law?" The court's answer to that question was "congress cannot limit the ability of the people who run corporations to spend assets they don't own on political campaigns." In other words, campaign financing restrictions only apply to individuals.

    It's pretty apparent now that Roberts and Alito committed perjury during their confirmation hearings. Somehow, I doubt that they will be impeached.

    Of course, this is the court that decided that a television news organization was just exercising free speech when it decided to air a falsified story in order to benefit a sponsor. This just extends that decision so that now it's legal for a sponsor to directly pay for a falsified news story attacking a political opponent.

    Democracy wasn't working out here anyway. How much worse can this make it?

  39. Re:Constitution? by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 2, Funny

    It's kind of hard to imprison a corporation...

    I volunteer to try.

  40. Re:Constitution? by straponego · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Not just all the rights, but more rights. For example, they aren't subject to the campaign contribution spending limits we are. They have stronger privacy rights than we do (they can refuse to provide information to courts for competitive reasons). When a corporation buys another corporation, that should be considered either slavery or prostitution. Corporations should be subject to prison and the death penalty.

    Actually, if corps were forbidden to buy other corps, it'd do wonders for employment and innovation. Never happen, though.

  41. Re:Constitution? by commodoresloat · · Score: 3, Funny

    They're discriminated against in the hiring process as well. I can't tell you how many hiring committees I've been on where we've only hired actual human beings. It's pervasive! I say we need affirmative action for corporations; level the playing field a bit, at least until we see more and more corporations in positions of power at corporations. True fact: nearly all corporate CEOs are actual human beings rather than corporations (Steve Jobs is the exception here).

  42. Re:Constitution? by SETIGuy · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Actually, it was the Supreme Court that decided that corporations are persons. (In truth a clerk inserted a statement to that effect into a Supreme Court decision without the Court deciding that.) But it's precedent now, and with the Roberts court precedent means everything, unless a majority of the court decides to discard 200 years of precedent, as it did in this case.

  43. Re:Welcome to Fascism by hey! · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You are close to the mark, but this is potentially worse than fascism as we have known it. It opens the possibility of an entirely new form of tyranny that the human race has not yet experienced.

    If you study the history of fascism, the various ideas that "fascists" have become confusing, until you realize that fascism isn't an ideology. Fascism isn't about ideas, but achieving a specific effect: maximizing the power of an individual or group of people who have control of the government. Where it serves that purpose, fascism will embrace extremes of spiritualism or materialism, or even mix the two. Consistency doesn't matter. Authority does.

    What is different about this is that we aren't talking about putting the power of the State in the hands of an individual or group of individuals. We are talking about putting it at the disposal of artificial entities; immortal profit making machines with a capacity for accumulating wealth beyond that of any individual. This is like *Colossus: The Forbin Project*, only with machines we've already built and operated.

    It's not that making a profit is evil. It's that the very definition of evil (see Saint Augustine, or even Kant) is making one sided decisions. Human concerns like ethics are not part of the design of the institution of the corporation. Ethics are forced on corporations by two things: the individuals working for the corporations, and by law.

    But the ethics of the individual are always under pressure in a corporation. We've all seen that. There's always the question of whether we can push the limit just a bit, and if we try it and get away with it, we suddenly have a new conception of what "normal behavior" is. We know that "everybody does it" doesn't excuse something, but we don't act that way. The law is what makes it possible for people to remain ethical. They can always say, "we will go to jail if we try that," or "we'll be fined," or even "we'll get bad publicity," which of course depends on individuals having rights that are respected under the law.

    Corporations have inappropriate influence now on government, but that doesn't make a dystopia. Life is still good for most of us. But we can't extrapolate that to giving them unchecked power to make laws for their own benefit. If we do that, the safety net provided by individual ethics won't matter. Once corporations are above the law, any corporation that fails to take the profit maximizing step regardless of the other consequences won't survive.

    Allow the power of corporations to grow without any check, and for the first time in human history human affairs will be governed with absolutely no regard to human welfare.

    --
    Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
  44. Re:So, does this mean foreign corporations can too by Skuld-Chan · · Score: 2, Informative

    Sure why not?

  45. how to get around this? by krull · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Could this decision by made ineffective by passing a law saying that when political / issue advertising is purchased in media, groups with opposition views must be _freely_ given an equal amount of time / space to rebut the advertisement. Perhaps even stronger, the space / time the rebuttal is given must immediately follow / be next to the original advertisement?

    Can someone explain why this wouldn't be constitutionally legal? I don't see a free speech argument since any group can now advertise / make their views heard...

  46. So if corporations are now legal "persons"... by absurdist · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ...when do we see the death penalty applied to them? The Ford Pinto's exploding gas tank and Union Carbide's Bhopal clusterfuck are merely the first examples that come to mind of corporations exhibiting depraved indifference to human life. Had an individual done these things he/she would be facing the death penalty; why should corporations be exempt?

  47. Re:Constitution? by Whorhay · · Score: 2, Funny

    Well that may be, but I'll bet they have been unfairly avoiding their civic duty of Jury Duty!

  48. Re:Welcome to Fascism by jagapen · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The U(F)SA is now a de facto fascist state.

    Because remember, kids, "fascist" means "something I personally don't approve of."

    No, that's what "socialist" means.

  49. Pick up a few senators from the store, dear... by TiggertheMad · · Score: 3, Insightful

    We need MORE money in politics, not less.

    The flaw in your argument lies with the fact that a single very wealth person could 'buy' more speech for a candidate that they favored, than a candidate that had broad grass roots support and more modest funding. This causes the candidate to give you much more influence over their agenda than a candidate that has broad grassroots support. Sure, your idea requires candidates to spend less time fund raising. They would all be solidly in the pockets of the rich, though.

    --

    HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
  50. Re:Constitution? by Scooby+Snacks · · Score: 2, Informative

    Actually, no: The courts did it. Or, if you want to be more specific, the court reporter, a former railroad president, did it.

    --

    --
    Runnin' around, robbin' banks all whacked on the Scooby Snacks...
  51. Re:Welcome to Fascism by SETIGuy · · Score: 2, Informative

    IBM does not yet appoint the president, Microsoft does not have a veto on laws.

    And you said he sounded silly. Individual corporations typically don't have the power to veto legislation, but industry groups (formed colluding corporations) do. Rather than veto laws, the industry groups typically write the laws and get Congress to ratify them.

  52. Re:Constitution? by startled · · Score: 2, Funny

    Good point. Since corporations were granted their personhood in 1884 there has never been a corporation as President or even Governor.

    What about more basic rights, like marriage? Yeah, yeah, "mergers" give you all the same benefits. If that's so, why not let them call it marriage?

    You ask me, get the government out of this whole marriage thing, and let individuals, their faiths, and their churches decide if they want to let AOL be "wedded" to Time Warner. In the mean time, the government can call AOL and Time Warner "civil partners".

    After that, maybe we can end this horrid business of corporations being bought and sold. Disgusting!

  53. Corporations are simply groups of people by Kohath · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You are right. Anything done without any human involvement whatsoever should not be given the same protections as something done by people. When corporations act with no human intent or human involvement, their freedom is without conscience or merit.

    When humans act, they have freedom. That freedom deserves protection. When they do it as part of a corporation, they maintain their humanity and the actions deserve to maintain their protection.

  54. Re:Welcome to Fascism by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Allow the power of corporations to grow without any check, and for the first time in human history human affairs will be governed with absolutely no regard to human welfare.

    Well, I would disagree. It has happened before. It's just that there normally was a face to the government that ignored human welfare. Gengis Khan was brutal and certainly ignored human welfare. However - and this is a significant difference - what's new is that with corporatism, there is no face to a corporation that engages in cruelty. And as Penny Arcade demonstrated so succinctly, nothing makes people into bigger assholes than anonymity.

    In other words, corporatism means everyone can be the biggest, cruelest asshole on the block. Lovely.

    --
    Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
  55. Re:Welcome to Fascism by inthealpine · · Score: 2, Interesting

    From wikipedia

    Fascism, pronounced /fæzm/, is a political ideology that seeks to combine radical and authoritarian nationalism with a corporatist economic system, and which is usually considered to be on the far right of the traditional left-right political spectrum.

    To speak: This ruling allows corporations unlimited spending, which tends toward corparatism. The fact that the Executive Branch's power has grown after 9/11, and has not retracted under Obama, along with the "you are with us or against us" patriotic thuggery from the far right, has the US tending toward (though not there yet, thankfully) authoritarian nationalism. Finally, the conservative judges made this possible, along with the far right being the harbinger of the nationalism, and we are well on our way.

    Wikipedia is one of the worse sources for any historical information you can get. There is no left/right argument with fascism (within the contex of US politics). In practice, collectivism has more in common with fascism by design structure. Merriam-Webster definition: fascism 1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition.

    --
    "In God We Trust, All Others Pay Cash"
  56. Re:A great victory for free speech! by Chris+Burke · · Score: 2, Informative

    Ah, Anarcho-Capitalists.

    I wish there was some kind of Holodeck or Total Recal memory implantation device where you could experience your desire come to fruition without it affecting the real world. I wish I could watch, so I could see your face as your state-less free market utopia turns into an oppressive dictatorship faster than you can say "What do you mean when there are no rules, the powerful make the rules?"

    The schadenfreude would be delicious as the jack-booted thugs knock on your door and inform you of your tax obligation of 90% of your income and anything they fancy lying around the house. "But there are no taxes in my utopia, only voluntary exchanges of goods and services!" you'd cry, and they'd say "Well then think of it as a 'not breaking your legs and burning down your house as an example to others' service fee." What are you going to do? Call the police? Ah, but the police force is a private firm, and that private firm, according to the free market ideal, was selected by the bank and developer who own your land and your house because they met the market demand for a police force that does exactly what the corporations paying them say. It's that private police force who is at your door. You think you have the right to appeal to a 3rd party, that you have the right to leave this community for one that is not yet completely corrupted? Why? Because the ideal of anarcho-capitalism says so? But who enforces that ideal -- there's no law that says so, nor any authority tasked with upholding it. It was that very same ideal that allowed the corporations to buy the courts and police force who are abusing you! So it's just you and your fellow "decent people" against the jackbooted thugs. Your resources versus the corporations. Have fun!

    I love you Anarchists. I love you because of every crazy political organization ever devised, Anarchy is the only one that is guaranteed to become its exact opposite. Every other organization is capable of being corrupted, but there is some mechanism that slows the process. Anarchy has no such stability, because it explicitly eschews any mechanism for having it. You can't even call it corruption, because people with wealth being able to buy whatever they want, with no legal recourse to stop them, is the whole point!

    3

    --

    The enemies of Democracy are
  57. Pussy Whisperer? by ClosedSource · · Score: 2, Funny

    "I really hate this whiny assed victim mentality so many pussies have today."

    You can talk with pussies? That must come in handy.

  58. Re:Corporations are not individuals by TheSync · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Corporations do not have first amendment rights. They cannot vote. They are not individuals. They have no rights at all.

    Amendment 1 does not require a human being, nor does it grant anyone or anything a "right".

    It states: "Congress shall make no law...abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press". It is a limitation on the power of Congress.

    In this case, Congress made a law abridging the freedom of the press. Bad Congress.

    Why the heck would we want corporations to be able to do this?

    Because we believe that limiting free speech is bad.

  59. Re:The solution is obvious by dgatwood · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Voting with your wallets only works if you actually have a choice in who you do business with and if you are fully aware of those companies' supply chains. In practice, outside of very narrow situations, neither of these is ever really true.

    Let's say you want to buy a computer. Whether you buy it from Apple, Dell, HP, or some fly-by-night computer builder working out of his parents' basement, your processor comes from AMD or Intel... maybe VIA. It doesn't take much imagination to think of positions that two or three companies in a similar industry would support. For that matter, it's safe to assume that in any given industry, odds are good that most companies (if not all) will generally have similar political positions on any issue that impacts them. Therefore, more often than not, your only real option when a company supports a position you don't like is to not only refuse to buy from that company, but to also refuse to buy from any other company in that entire industry. This quickly becomes impractical.

    And you're also forgetting about collateral damage. Let's say that UPS supports somebody you don't like. Any product you buy assembled outside the U.S. has a good chance of having been shipped by UPS or a subsidiary thereof at some point. Any product you buy that was assembled in the U.S. has about a 100% chance of having some component in it that was shipped by UPS or a subsidiary at some point. So it does no good to say "I'll only ship FedEx from now on" because you're supporting UPS anyway.

    Finally, I'll go one step further. I buy a carrot from my grocery store. If the farmer worked for a corporation that supported someone I don't like, I can probably tell by the label. If my grocery supported someone I don't like, I can tell by the grocery store sign. But what about:

    • the seed company that provided the seeds for the carrots
    • the herbicide/pesticide company that the farmer bought products from (I know, I know, buy organic)
    • the local store through which the farmer bought the herbicide/pesticide/seeds
    • the regional distributors that provided the herbicide/pesticide/seeds to the farmer's local store
    • the manufacturer of the farmer's tractor, truck, harvester, etc.
    • the manufacturers of parts that went into that equipment
    • the tire manufacturer for the farmer's tractor, truck, etc.
    • the company that made the air compressor that the farmer used to top up those tires
    • the trucking company that the farmer used to deliver the finished goods to a distributor
    • the distributor itself
    • the company that manufactured the labels that the farmer stuck on the produce
    • the gasoline companies who sold fuel for the farmer's tractor, the trucking companies, etc.
    • the power companies that sold power to the equipment manufacturers, the distributors, the trucking companies, the gasoline companies, the seed company, the herbicide/pesticide companies, etc.

    The number of companies involved basically increases exponentially the farther out you look. Each company gets support from multiple other companies, which get support from multiple other companies, and so on.

    And that's just a couple of hops away from the original "manufacturer" for something as simple as a carrot. When you consider how many dozens or even hundreds of companies are directly involved in the manufacture and distribution of a more complex product like a computer or a cell phone, you should easily understand why avoiding doing business with a company who supports people you don't like is completely and totally infeasible unless you quite literally dedicate every minute of your life to the task, and probably not even then.

    Quite simply, there is only one way to not support a company you don't like, and that is to refuse to give any money to any corporation. Short of living an entirely self-sufficient agrarian lifestyle without the use of modern tools or equipment (we're talking about using an ox an

    --

    Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

  60. Re:A great victory for free speech! by Chris+Burke · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Ooh but governments are evil because they impose their will on individuals with force, which they have a monopoly on!

    So instead, we will get rid of government, and all interactions then will be completely voluntary, and no one will have a monopoly on force!

    Hmm, but wait, what if someone decides voluntary interactions aren't to their benefit? Then we will have to impose our will on them with force...

    But wait, all such force is private now, and they have more money than us...

    Hmm...

    LOL. You can't expect someone to understand your point who thinks they are an Anarcho-anything, like you get to choose the kind of society that will exist after you've created Anarchy. How would that work, when you have no enforcement mechanism? Anarcho-Capitalism, Anarcho-Socialism. LOL. There's just Anarchy, followed by whatever those strong enough to reign in the Anarchy decide upon.

    --

    The enemies of Democracy are
  61. Whoa, let's not overpersonify. by Chris+Burke · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Everything you said is correct, and yet it's all wrong. I realize you could be speaking from the standpoint of the "Corporate Person" pun that got in this whole mess to begin with, but let's be clear that this is a fiction. A corporation is not a sentient entity. It does not have desires or interests of its own because "it" is not an entity capable of having them. The corporation can take no actions because it has no will. It is not immortal because it is not alive.

    The desires of a corporation are the desires of its executives. The actions of a corporation are the actions of its executives and their subordinates taken in the corporation's name. They aren't separate, they are one and the same. The only way for a corporation to take an action that the executives do not desire is for one of the subordinates to disobey their executive, for which they can be fired.

    You're absolutely right that corporations are anti-democratic semi-feudal organizations. But an organization is nothing but the people comprising it. So when you say that the directors should view the corporation like an untrustworthy animal, it is buying into the fictional personification of the corporation that says it has a will outside of the directors themselves. Do not allow the directors to abdicate responsibility for their own actions in this way. It may be a legal reality, but it is not a literal reality.

    Nobody would speak of, say, the 1st U.S. Army have a will or interests outside of the General commanding it, excepting that the General has lost control of the people under their command. You can't nuke "the concept of the 1st Army" though you can nuke the people in it. It is "immortal" only in the sense that the concept will still exist, but that concept is nothing and does nothing and desires nothing until a new General takes up the head, and then the 1st Army's desires are the General's desires.

    Or for another example, you would never say "the people of feudal Britain were oppressed by Britain", you'd say they were oppressed by the King, the executive. The idea that "Britain" could oppress the people despite the wishes of the King is ludicrous.

    So, getting back to the point. This problem with this decision is not that it gives political power to corporations. The problem is that it gives political power to CEOs and directors (usually CEOs of other companies if not the same company), to use the resources of the corporation -- meaning the product of the labor of everyone working for it -- for the CEO's own political benefit.

    --

    The enemies of Democracy are
    1. Re:Whoa, let's not overpersonify. by Sri+Ramkrishna · · Score: 3, Informative

      You might also consider that a corporation, a multi-national corporation has no loyalties. They are not required to support this country or fight for it, or any number of things. Their only motivation is to create wealth for its owner. Giving the same rights to such an entity who has no loyalty to this country makes no sense. Corporations have made no oath. We pay taxes because if we want the country to run properly with the services we want. Not all agree on the services, but there you have it. It's breath-taking the breadth of the judicial over-reach that this court has done. sri

  62. Re:This decision is horrible - the Mussolini Remix by jrifkin · · Score: 2, Informative
    As our friend Benito Mussolini so aptly put,

    Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power.