NZ School Goes Open Source Amid Microsoft Mandate

Dan Jones writes "Kiwis have built an entire school IT system out of open source software, in less than two months, despite a deal between the New Zealand government and Microsoft that effectively mandates the use of Microsoft products in the country's schools. Albany Senior High School in the northern suburbs of Auckland has been running an entirely open source infrastructure since it opened in 2009. It's using a range of applications like OpenOffice, Moodle for education content, Mahara for student portfolios, and Koha for the library catalogue. Ubuntu Linux is on the desktop and Mandriva provides the server. Interestingly, the school will move into new purpose-built premises this year, which include a dedicated server room design based on standard New Zealand school requirements, including four racks each capable of holding 48 servers for its main systems. The main infrastructure at Albany Senior High only requires four servers, suggesting an almost 50-fold saving on hardware requirements."

Comments

Mandelbulb porn sighted!

[symbolset]

IT Administrator who saved millions in licensing fees involved in scandal! Students used open source operating system to compile and publish their own unauthorized applications, which were of course sophomoric in character. Students were permitted to render mathematical constructs wihout let. Mandelbulb porn sighted!

The new administrator has promised to nip this in the bud: "Students will invent things within in the scope of propriety with the help of the new Microsoft systems that limit the scope of their endeavors." Further: "We'll have no more of this open scope nonsense. Our job is to teach them what to think, not to think" he said. "We'll have no more of this exploring the crevices of obscure mathematical constructs. It's obscene."

When asked, Timmy Blake responded "it's just a standard torus warped by budget figures. I didn't mean for it to look like a vagina. This is serious science."

Said IT Director Clemmons, "I didn't think it would be controversial to let the kids learn about the bare truth. My bad."

The tight time frame -- two weeks for evaluation, one week for design and two weeks for implementation -- didn't create too much disruption, Brennan said. "Although everything wasn't as polished as it could have been, when the school opened all of the core functionality was there. And it's been running for a year with no significant intervention. It hasn't really been touched in any fundamental way since then."

Clearly these are minds that have been warped by the freetards to measure things like Return On Investment and Time To Recover Investment in the scope of free software. It's not fair to measure commercial software in that context.

/ Reading the whole article is recommended.

Re:Mandelbulb porn sighted!

[Hurricane78]

You write that as if it was normal, to assume that schools exist to teach children knowledge and make them intelligent.

School is a direct advancement from what Otto von Bismarck wanted:
Something like military service, but for children. To form them into what were the ideas back then:
To obey, to sit still and listen, to train things over and over again, to learn them by heart, etc.
Not to come up with free thoughts, ideas, and creativity. Because those would have created people who would want to lead themselves, not to blindly follow.

This was always the goal. And the idea that it could be something else, is a relatively new concept, that some dreamed about, but that still is very far from becoming real.

School is simply not what you should look at, if you want to educate your children to become creatives and leaders.
Even 4chan is better at free thought and creativity, than any school.

Re:Mandelbulb porn sighted!

[LordLimecat]

This was always the goal. And the idea that it could be something else, is a relatively new concept, that some dreamed about, but that still is very far from becoming real.

The Athenians of old would like a word with you.

Re:Mandelbulb porn sighted!

[drinkypoo]

School is simply not what you should look at, if you want to educate your children to become creatives and leaders.

ITYM public school. You know, where the leaders of our country don't go. One big problem with the existence of private schools is that our leaders have no concept of what life is like for the average child. I was one of about four kids in my class who were always done early, and got top marks. But I couldn't just lay my head down on my desk and wait quietly when I was done, as I was expected to do, and ended up writing lines and shit like that for "disrupting the class", literally by doing things like "looking at the other children". Public school is a system intended to create soldiers and factory workers, and guess what? Most of the factories are gone. What's left?

Re:Mandelbulb porn sighted!

[hey!]

Really?

The "peripatetics" we so named because Aristotle taught his students by strolling around and chatting.

The "stoics" were named for the *stoa* or marketplace, bucause that's where they used to shoot the shit.

The "cynics" used to lurk under bridges, from whence they could hop out and intellectually ambush the unwary traveler (making them the first *trolls*).

The one thing you'd never see in ancient Greece is a group of students sitting in a rectangular grid of seats all doing identical work in parallel. That would have been seen as very strange indeed. Now we can't lay this entirely at Bismarck's feet, because it goes back further, to the need to impart Latin grammar to large number of aspiring but not too wealthy students (thus the "grammar school"). You wouldn't teach a gentleman that way, he'd have a tutor.

This class distinction remains in education today. Look at a top tier "prep" school that cater to the economic elite of this country, and you'll see a model which (unlike the standard classroom) would have made sense to the Greeks: a small number of students, maybe half a dozen, sitting around a table and having a discussion with a professor. That's because the results really matter; the aim is to produce an elite class. The method used to train our elite could be done walking around, or hanging around the marketplace, although lurking under bridges. They're supposed to be able think for themselves, but only within certain confines (i.e. not questioning the existence of an elite).

I'll go back under my bridge now.

Re:Mandelbulb porn sighted!

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll go back under my bridge now.

The ancient Cynics would be proud of you.

Re:Mandelbulb porn sighted!

[jc42]

Public school is a system intended to create soldiers and factory workers, and guess what? Most of the factories are gone. What's left?

Actually, if you look where the factories have gone, and look into the factories, you'll find something even more devastating for our school system: The factories don't contain many people any more. They're mostly full of robots. The few humans are there to tend to the robots, which means that they have a pretty good technical education.

The days of training kids to take robot-like factory jobs are over, and the schools that teach that way are now producing graduates trained for a lifetime of unemployment. But it'll take a few more generations of school kids moving on to unemployment before the message gets out to the schools' administrations.

There are still jobs available of the "You want fries with that?" variety, of course. The rest of the jobs, where there's a shortage of workers, mostly require that you be able to think to some degree, because the jobs aren't routine. We now know how to program computers to do most routine jobs. But our schools don't know how to train students for the current job market, because they're based on methods that actively discourage independent thought and problem solving.

Stay tuned, though. This can't last forever. Maybe you'll live long enough to see the schools redesigned to better satisfy your society's needs. Of course, it'll be vicarious, and won't do you much good ...

Re:Mandelbulb porn sighted!

[Runaway1956]

4chan? Really? I thought 4chan was populated by high school dropouts and misfits. Am I mistaken? The very term "free thought" suggests a population capable of thought. Hmmmm.

Re:Mandelbulb porn sighted!

[misexistentialist]

They're supposed to be able think for themselves, but only within certain confines (i.e. not questioning the existence of an elite).

The existence of an elite certainly stands up to scrutiny, though part of the education of these schools is to teach the elite to be inconspicuous. Using force against the envious rabble is generally not worth the bother because like dogs they rarely learn from punishment

Re:Mandelbulb porn sighted!

[ArsonSmith]

"They're mostly full of robots."

I think that's what the parent poster was talking about. Schools are doing that.

Re:Mandelbulb porn sighted!

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you missed the parents point entirely - he was pointing out that the Athenians of old were very pro-free-thinking and would not have considered Bismarck's ideas as conducive to real learning.

Same shit you said just more concise.

Re:Mandelbulb porn sighted!

[lymond01]

This is fine for education at higher levels but in order to walk around chatting about Important Matters, you're going to need to explain, in detail, what composes those Important Matters. I can't discuss the absurdity of Special Relativity without my students knowing some mathematics, geometry, and the basics of space-time theory. And while I'm sure anything's possible, I'm thinking a rambling discussion group substituted for a chalkboard of equations isn't going to cut it.

I completely agree that high school should be less classroom and more outreach, however.

Re:Mandelbulb porn sighted!

[hey!]

I misspoke.

I meant to say questioning *the identity of the current elite*.

Re:Mandelbulb porn sighted!

[hey!]

Not to take issue with anything you said, but somehow I think that Aristotle's students probably had an impressive grounding in mathematics by modern standards. Of course that obviously doesn't apply to things like Analytic Geometry that hadn't been invented yet. Still, I'd bet that anybody who made it through five books of Euclid has a pretty good foundation for understanding Special Relativity, once the relevant axioms have been set out for them.

Re:Mandelbulb porn sighted!

[advocate_one]

This class distinction remains in education today. Look at a top tier "prep" school that cater to the economic elite of this country, and you'll see a model which (unlike the standard classroom) would have made sense to the Greeks: a small number of students, maybe half a dozen, sitting around a table and having a discussion with a professor. That's because the results really matter; the aim is to produce an elite class. The method used to train our elite could be done walking around, or hanging around the marketplace, although lurking under bridges. They're supposed to be able think for themselves, but only within certain confines (i.e. not questioning the existence of an elite).

don't forget that the original universities were gatherings of students who employed the best professors they could find and afford... completely unlike the "modern" universities these days, where the staff have managed to reverse roles and set themselves up as "establishments" of "learning" that confer the award of degrees on those students who survive the hurdles set in place...

Re:Mandelbulb porn sighted!

[leenks]

I hate the term public school because it means different things depending on where you live...

For example, "Eton College, often referred to simply as Eton, ... is one of the original nine English public schools as defined by the Public Schools Act 1868". This certainly isn't a school intended to create "soldiers and factory workers", though one could argue Prince William and Harry are "soldiers" I suppose!

Re:Mandelbulb porn sighted!

[DarkOx]

There simply allot more you have to know today to get to the really important stuff than you needed in Ancient Greece. To that end your point about preparing a certain amount of basic material is correct. We need to make sure though that what we present by preaching is strictly facts and skills. If there is debate about an issue we need to go back to the Socratic method, that is if we want free thinkers.

Teaching the algebra the way most primary schools do it - Good
Teaching history the way most primary schools today do it - Very Very bad.

Re:Mandelbulb porn sighted!

[Anonymous Coward]

You've got two things wrong. Normal people don't envy the elite at all, in fact they pity them, and laugh at their pitiful existence. Only disturbed individuals wish for violence in their lives, normal people want merely peaceful coexistance. State authority uses violence to enforce its will, but it is seen as an acceptable violence next to anarchy. This is the greatest mistake our society has made. Anarchy is the only way forward, politics have become too corrupt to be meaningful. The violence will intensify until the normal people destroy the system.

The ones who would treat us like dogs are now the butt of our jokes, next they will be against the wall.

Re:Mandelbulb porn sighted!

[lymond01]

Teaching history the way most primary schools today do it - Very Very bad.

Being almost 40 years old, I can say that history is malleable, even over the long term. I grew up thinking injuns were bad and cowboys were good. Now I'm pretty sure that it has nothing to do with bad or good, more about survival and quality of living, and complete lack of understanding of those who don't share your values, should you have any.

So yes...definitely debate history. If you weren't there, it probably didn't happen the way the books say.

Re:Mandelbulb porn sighted!

[operagost]

Being almost 40 years old, I can say that history is malleable, even over the long term.

History doesn't change. History is fact. It's the people who try to twist the facts through deceit who are responsible for this malleability. If teachers and writers didn't have an agenda, but simply recorded the facts, ideally there would be no issue.

Re:Mandelbulb porn sighted!

[lymond01]

Perhaps everyone SHOULD get a life recorder that uploads to a secure archive that can only be accessed after 50 years.

Re:Mandelbulb porn sighted!

[AthanasiusKircher]

History doesn't change. History is fact. It's the people who try to twist the facts through deceit who are responsible for this malleability.

Sorry, but this is nonsense. "History" requires selection and interpretation of "facts," whatever you're defining your "facts" to be. The process of selecting "facts" and creating a narrative that we can understand is a very complex task that is debated all the time in historiography.

This is like saying "science is fact." No -- science is a process by which we understand the world, and sometimes we misinterpret data or wrongly select data or use data to support an accepted theory that is eventually overturned. And sometimes scientists do deliberately "twist the facts through deceit," but that's only one possible reason for failure in the scientific method. Often, as society changes or new data is introduced or new scientists come along with novel ideas, old data is reinterpreted to mean something else.

Quite simply, history requires someone to make a record of something. That record is biased by that person's point of view. Then, some other person comes along and looks through those records (usually drawing on many records from more than one primary source, with all their inherent biases). That person selects some things out to preserve in a secondary source. Usually, to qualify as "history" in the normal sense, that second person tries to create a coherent account from the scattered primary records. That involves lots of interpretation and the biases of the second person. Then more people come along and read and interpret those secondary sources. And finally, by the time it gets into your high school history textbook, it has generally been filtered through interpretations of dozens of people, all of whom have their biases.

Every "fact" you think you know about history is someone's spin on something, and even if it's close to a "raw fact" that something happened on such-and-such a date, the only reason you know that thing is because someone was biased enough to single out that particular event and that particular date over trillions of other things that happened and nobody cared enough about to tell you about it.

Claiming that "history is fact" is naive.

Re:Mandelbulb porn sighted!

[ChrisMaple]

The concepts of leaders and followers are inseparable, and both are vile. Think and act for yourself.

Re:Mandelbulb porn sighted!

[pydev]

Every "fact" you think you know about history is someone's spin on something, and even if it's close to a "raw fact" that something happened on such-and-such a date, the only reason you know that thing is because someone was biased enough to single out that particular event and that particular date over trillions of other things that happened and nobody cared enough about to tell you about it.

That view of history is completely and inexcusably wrong. It's the kind of apologetics that organizations engage in who have a historical record that they are ashamed of.

In fact, many historical facts are supported by records that have no particular bias, viewpoint, or historical purpose: census records, birth/death records, business records. Many involve no human record keeping at all, they are based on archaeological finds. Many other historical facts have been documented by the perpetrators of crimes themselves.

Our interpretation of historical facts may change over time; for example, we don't interpret "Manifest Destiny", the Holocaust, or the "Holy Inquisition" in the same way we used to. Furthermore, the kinds of facts we decide to research and document change depending on what historical questions we ask today. But the historical facts and events themselves don't change.

Re:Mandelbulb porn sighted!

[turbidostato]

"History doesn't change. History is fact."

Wrong.

Facts are facts. History is the tale of those facts. And of course the tale changes depending on who tells it.

"If teachers and writers didn't have an agenda, but simply recorded the facts, ideally there would be no issue."

Even if there were no teachers or writers and you were talking about the very facts you saw with your very eyes, you would find that others that were there, not less neutral than you about the facts, would tell a different story. Hence, History is not the untestable facts, but the tale about them.

Re:Mandelbulb porn sighted!

[AthanasiusKircher]

Very late reply...

In fact, many historical facts are supported by records that have no particular bias, viewpoint, or historical purpose:

Really? Like what?

census records,

Ah yes, the ones that only recorded the names of male property owners for the first 50 years of the US? Or that forgot slaves, native Americans, etc. for much longer? And what we know depends on the year -- some census records have dates of marriage, some don't; some have birth months, others have only the year; some have occupation in greater detail than others; some have information on property values and estate values; some don't. And that's just variation among 19th-century records.

birth/death records,

Which ones? Which births were recorded and how? Were these only church records, country records, or was there a state database? What other information was recorded?

business records.

Not sure what you mean by this. If you believe everything you see in accounting records (even old ones), I'm not sure what you think of various high-profile scandals in business these days. What gets recorded is what the business wants some particular audience to know.

Many involve no human record keeping at all, they are based on archaeological finds.

Why do digs occur in certain places and not others? Why do some digs get funding and not others? What tools are available for the archaeologist to analyze the data, and how do these change over time?

Many other historical facts have been documented by the perpetrators of crimes themselves.

They have been documented, but autobiographical interpretations aren't necessarily the best source for historical fact.

Look -- I'm not using "biased" in the bigoted or intentional sense. I'm saying that we all have our perspective, our reasons for being interested in certain things, writing certain things down, researching certain things, etc.

But the historical facts and events themselves don't change.

You're half-right: historical events don't change. What we consider to be a "fact" about those events, however, often does.

Just as importantly, are they also...

[KillShill]

Inte£ free?

Re:Just as importantly, are they also...

[Dr. Evil]

Intel?

You sir might want to join the Amish.

Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no mandate for NZ schools to use Microsoft software. There is a collective agreement (one of many agreements, including one with Apple), and the schools have always been able to choose the software they want.

Standard slashdot bias and hype. FUD FUD FUD

Re:Huh?

[wizardforce]

The contract stipulates that Microsoft gets paid regardless of whether schools actually use their software. So while the schools may not be forced through contract to use MS software, it doesn't matter to Microsoft as they still get paid for non-existent software.

Re:Huh?

[molnarcs]

The same thing happened (happening? I no longer live there) in Hungary. Collective agreement (officially: Microsoft Campus Agreement) with the government, Microsoft gets payed regardless of whether schools use their software. Teachers and students are allowed to use MS Office + Windows as long as they are part of the educational institution. On the bright side, the license is obviously still valid when you finish university - I still have my 7 year old copy of MS Windows that passes all authenticity test ;) Not that I use windows, but it comes handy when I install for friends. I know it's illegal, but who cares in SE-Asia? Besides, I only consider it fair, for throughout my studies, I used linux exclusively anyway - and yet, Microsoft still got payed for my non-use of their software.

Re:Huh?

[initialE]

For as many student that go through the school are students not bred into the Microsoft culture and not dependent on their software to be productive. This is not good news to them.

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

Perpetuating the use of MS products is better for MS than switching to alternatives. Pirating a few copies of Windows/Office is a papercut to the beast. Your use of Linux (and related software) is the only hope of slaying the beast.

Re:Huh?

[MichaelSmith]

Its the same where I work. A rate is negotiated based on the number of systems (and in my case) vmware images running windows. But if we save on windows licenses it helps in the long term because future contracts will get buy with fewer licenses.

Re:Huh?

[advocate_one]

The contract stipulates that Microsoft gets paid regardless of whether schools actually use their software. So while the schools may not be forced through contract to use MS software, it doesn't matter to Microsoft as they still get paid for non-existent software.

which leaves those administrators who decided to use open source software vulnerable to claims of wasting valuable resources implementing other solutions when "Industry Standard" microsoft software has already been paid for

Re:Huh?

[styrotech]

Standard slashdot bias and hype. FUD FUD FUD

You're blaming slashdot for that statement? It was taken directly from the article on CIO magazines website.

Sounds like you've got your own set of biases going on.

Re:Huh?

[L4t3r4lu5]

Besides, I only consider it fair

There is nothing "fair" about Microsoft licensing agreements.

Nothing.

Re:Huh?

[ztransform]

For as many student that go through the school are students not bred into the Microsoft culture and not dependent on their software to be productive.

Gladiators were taught to fight with heavy wooden swords so that the real sword would be easier to handle.

Surely it is better to give students crippled operating systems such as Vista so that their introduction to real world technology is a pleasant one? Rather than go the other way around?

Re:Huh?

[raju1kabir]

Gladiators were taught to fight with heavy wooden swords so that the real sword would be easier to handle. Surely it is better to give students crippled operating systems such as Vista so that their introduction to real world technology is a pleasant one? Rather than go the other way around?

Starting the students on Vista is more like training gladiators with swords made out of aluminum foil.

Re:Huh?

[ozmanjusri]

which leaves those administrators who decided to use open source software vulnerable to claims of wasting valuable resources implementing other solutions

According to TFA, they saved money despite paying for the unused MS licenses.

"The brilliance of Microsoft's business model is they get the same amount of money regardless of who uses it," Osborne said. However, the school has saved significantly in other areas,

I also like the fact that the whole system was planned and implemented in less than two months. Sort of gives the lie to the whole "Linux is difficult" thing.

Re:Huh?

[Daengbo]

Support Free software in S.E. Asia and help get rid of the rampant infringement that holds these countries back.

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

Huh? Why is this modded "Troll"?

The Microsoft downmod squad is out in force today...

Re:Huh?

[aussie_a]

it doesn't matter to Microsoft as they still get paid for non-existent software.

Untrue. Microsoft has always said "we'd rather people steal our product then use a competitors product."

Re:Huh?

[hitmark]

sounds like microsoft have moved their old tactics from OEMs. That is, i recall there being some noise back around the 90's about microsoft pulling a similar contract vs dell, HP or some other brand name so that microsoft got payed even if the other company sold a computer without microsoft software installed.

Re:Huh?

[L4t3r4lu5]

It's because it's an Insightful Troll, a definite karma-burner. On one hand, I'm slamming MS with no citations or evidence whatsoever. On the other hand, I don't need citations or evidence as everybody knows that Microsoft's Windows Update supplemental agreements allow MS to remotely install software of their choice onto your computer at any time. It was widely covered a few years ago, with xp sp2 I believe. Maybe the original rollout of WGA. I forget exactly.

Either way, /. knows that trolling is bad and so mods me down, and yet they also know I'm right, so mod me up.

Groupthink isn't confused; It's just that it's not synchronised properly.

Re:Huh?

[PsychoSlashDot]

There is no mandate for NZ schools to use Microsoft software. There is a collective agreement (one of many agreements, including one with Apple), and the schools have always been able to choose the software they want.

Standard slashdot bias and hype. FUD FUD FUD

Agreed. Also, the fact that newly constructed schools spec out 4x48 racks doesn't say anything about how many U are typically consumed in a Microsoft solution shows bad editorializing. New construction also likely calls for 2" conduit in each wall for future cabling needs, but it certainly doesn't imply that using MS software would require 2" diameter worth of wires to be pulled to fill those conduits.

I'd applaud the school for using low-to-no-cost solutions in-house were it not for the fact they're basically teaching the kids on platforms they - statistically speaking - will never use in the real world. Monopoly is bad, but denying reality is worse.

Re:Huh?

[hey!]

Weird huh?

A private company taxing *the government*.

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, an AC got modded to +5 with a bullshit argument and no proof - and it's claimed that Slashdot
has a Linux bias? That hasn't been true for years.

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

So Linux admins set up 4 Linux servers in two months and that dispells the idea that Linux is difficult? I'm not even a Windows admin and I can set up 4 MS Servers in an afternoon. If you want it done right give me a few weeks.

Re:Huh?

[Blakey Rat]

Here in the US, public school salaries can't pay for a Unix admin capable of setting up an entire school system in 2 months. I can't speak for New Zealand... but here schools have enough trouble finding competent Windows admins, considering their budget.

Re:Huh?

[ozmanjusri]

You didn't read the article, did you?

Re:Huh?

[LBDobbs]

The contract stipulates that Microsoft gets paid regardless of whether schools actually use their software. So while the schools may not be forced through contract to use MS software, it doesn't matter to Microsoft as they still get paid for non-existent software.

It matters to M$ a great deal. What the children get used to using is what the adults they become will want to use. Teach an entire generation of computer users that Microsoft (and Apple) are not particularly relevant and M$ will have a bit of a problem winning them over when they are running companies 30 years from now.

Re:Huh?

[Lulfas]

Not to mention the additional costs in teaching the teachers the systems and the inherently hidden wasted costs of teaching the kids the system. When that is taken into consideration, I would expect the savings to rapidly dissipate.

Re:Huh?

[troll8901]

Starting the students on Vista is more like training gladiators with swords made out of aluminum foil.

In swordfighting, the parry movement means when the enemy is about to stab you, you use your own sword to push his sword away quickly.

With Windows Vista, you get this pop-up in the middle of combat:

"Windows needs your permission to continue
  If you started this action, continue.

  Parry Movement
  Arm Motor Control

  To continue, type an administrator password, and then click OK.

  [Details] [OK] [Cancel]"

Re:Huh?

[Kjella]

Gladiators were taught to fight with heavy wooden swords so that the real sword would be easier to handle.

Surely it is better to give students crippled operating systems such as Vista so that their introduction to real world technology is a pleasant one?

In this case, I think it will only lead to harakiri attempts with wooden swords - and failing.

Re:Huh?

[silanea]

Groupthink isn't confused; It's just that it's not synchronised properly.

That has got to be the most sensible statement on the matter I have read so far.

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

This isn't correct.

If schools don't use the software (ie. if they use all OSS as in the Albany HS example) then they send a nil return to the Ministry of Education. The Ministry only pays for schools using Windows.

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

The shills are really out in force lately. Seems like MS's PR droids have decided to make a concerted effort on Slashdot.

Re:Huh?

[jcdill]

The contract will expire, sooner or later. When that happens, if the school has been happily operating in a Windows-free environment the administration will clearly see that there is no need to renew the contract. The sooner they start using alternative, open source software, the better. Don't let the Windows contract stall or slow this process! Thinking; Oh, we won't save any money by not using Windows now, so we should go ahead and use it to "get our money's worth" is false economy. Even if Windows software were free, it's still not the best choice. It's bloated, it's buggy, by design it's insecure. If you have the IT staff that can support free Open Source OSs and applications, you will be better off than tying your organization to closed-source software, especially when it comes from Microsoft.

Re:Huh?

[euxneks]

Perpetuating the use of MS products is better for MS than switching to alternatives. Pirating a few copies of Windows/Office is a papercut to the beast. Your use of Linux (and related software) is the only hope of slaying the beast.

So... Is 7 the new number of the beast?

Re:Huh?

[PsychoSlashDot]

Troll? Really? Because I'm not sold on open-source/free software being the best choice in schools or because I think there's no implicit relationship between rack space specs and software vendors?

I only post when I'm shooting for +5 Insightful, so I have to say I'm baffled on this one.

Re:Huh?

[dbIII]

Most of the USA unfortunately funds education poorly so that may be true, however it is not the same elsewhere. Also many universities around the world have been training their CS/IT/IS/buzzword_of_the_day students with *nix systems so any recent graduate from those places could do a reasonable job.

Re:Huh?

[ChrisMaple]

The problem in the USA is not education funding; funding is already at ridiculously high levels. On a state-by-state basis, funding and results are not in agreement. The problem is idiotic curricula, misallocation of resources (for example, $100,000/yr to teach some moron incapable of significant learning or earning a living sufficient to pay back the cost of education), union control, tenure, promotion based on longevity and political pull, excessive and silly state regulations, et infinite cetera. Learning (i.e. student-side) can be very inexpensive; very little is required beyond internet access, self-motivation, and a helpful librarian. Teaching is much more expensive, but still need not come anywhere near what it costs in the US today. It should be below $3000 per student-year, most of which goes to paying the teacher.

Re:Huh?

[chentiangemalc]

they are 'agreements' that you accept when you use the products, if you don't think they are fare don't agree to them. personally i prefer to take the agreement and experience time saving & productivity increases with a product that is not constantly getting new but buggy features.

Re:Huh?

[MrResistor]

No, they trained with wooden swords because wood is cheap, and there's no reason to risk damaging an expensive metal blade when you aren't actually trying to kill someone. It's also pretty hard to put a good edge on a wooden sword, which also has some pretty obvious advantages in a training environment. However, wood is certainly not more dense than metal, and it's pretty hard to make a wooden sword that's even close to the weight of the real sword you're trying to copy, let alone heavier. If heavier training swords swords were used (citation?) they were made of metal.

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like you've got your own set of biases going on.

Shilling for Microsoft is not a bias, for some its a job, for some a hobby, and for some its their religious duty as a zealot in service to their corporate master.

Re:Huh?

[DragonWriter]

The contract stipulates that Microsoft gets paid regardless of whether schools actually use their software. So while the schools may not be forced through contract to use MS software, it doesn't matter to Microsoft as they still get paid for non-existent software.

If its a national "collective agreement" and some schools don't use it, the agreement may still be a good deal if others do, just like a site license for software that isn't used on every machine that it could be under the terms of the license can be a good deal compared to licensing each machine individually.

Re:Huh?

[dbIII]

The problem in the USA is not education funding; funding is already at ridiculously high levels

In comparison to the rest of the developed world and for the affluent in developing nations it is at ridiculously low levels for the first ten years of schooling.
Also take a few seconds to consider what proportion of the total is actually spent on wages and then reconsider the views shoved down your throat by radio shock jocks. Work out roughly how many full time teachers there are in your state, the average pay, compare that to the total education budget and be enlightened. It's as incredibly stupid as blaming the entire list of economic problems in California on prison officers that want more money. Ironicly mismanagement by accountants looking at the short term creates more waste and inappropriate political goals (or outright nepotism) do the same.
Anyway, the long term trend applied very widely over a lot of states since the time of Reagan is the Texas "low tax state" approach with poor funding to many areas - especially education. It's not really a case of some children left behind, it's effectively a nation left behind and even private education has relaxed standards.
Even when a system is completely broken self motivation will still get a few students through to whatever goal they are aiming for. The problem is the majority of children are not self motivated so the anarchist/libertarian approach to the problem would result in a nations skilled workers provided by the education systems of others. Consider where your local doctors came from and you'll see that in some areas that has already happened.

Re:Huh?

[turbidostato]

"I'm not even a Windows admin and I can set up 4 MS Servers in an afternoon."

Point being that by the national planning you'd need 4 *racks* full of Windows servers to achieve the same operation levels they get with only 4 Linux servers.

Re:Huh?

[turbidostato]

"Untrue. Microsoft has always said "we'd rather people steal our product then use a competitors product.""

Of course they prefer to be "stolen" that way since they don't lose even a dime with that.

Microsoft can say all they want, that won't make it any more true.

Are you sure that if somebody effectively managed to steal their product (as in they were not able to sell it to anyone else since now they don't own it, nor use it as a basis to produce their next product line, since then they won't be able to put their hand on it) they still would prefer that to somebody using a competitor's?

Remember: copying something without its copyright holder permission is quite a different thing to steal it.

50-fold savings?

[PCM2]

The school only has 230 students. I have a hard time believing they'd need 192 servers whether they used Linux or not.

And BTW, as long as you're standing on my lawn, may I remind you that my own high school's expenditure on servers was exactly zero? How's that for savings?

Re:50-fold savings?

[wizardforce]

I have a hard time believing they'd need 192 servers whether they used Linux or not.

This is the same government that made a deal with Microsoft to pay them regardless of whether Microsoft's software was actually installed. That doesn't sound like the kind of logical decision making that leads to entertaining the notion that 230 students might not need 192 servers after all.

Re:50-fold savings?

[WillRobinson]

I agree, we had no servers. And I will tell you the access time to any students records was guaranteed to be less than the time it takes to log in. The gall if it! We actually used folders, and paper! Humm can we sue Microsoft for prior art? I mean folder, and object inside like Pictures and documents! When my kids ask what our generation did, I tell them where do you think the computers and internet came from? You think Al Gore invented it? Pufft

Re:50-fold savings?

[club]

The school only has 230 students. I have a hard time believing they'd need 192 servers whether they used Linux or not.

Here in NZ, we're so technologically advanced that we're skipping laptops and going straight to "one server per child".

Re:50-fold savings?

[wvmarle]

Even if they were bigger... there is little cost saving in building a server room for one rack vs a server room for four racks, even though you expect to use only one rack. However having to expand the server room later to accommodate a second rack now that's not just expensive but potentially disruptive to the school (construction is noisy and messy).

So it sounds like a sensible requirement to have a slightly over sized server room. And this being the government requirement possibly regardless of the school size. So there may be hardware savings, to call it 50-fold is baseless.

Having four servers for 230 students and maybe 30 staff or so sounds overkill to me even. But then again that's possibly designed with some redundancy in place, or with room for immediate expansion. Or are these application highly server based? Can also require more server power.

Re:50-fold savings?

[Anonymous Coward]

They don't need that many servers, they are saying there are 4 racks, each capable of holding 42sru. How many sru's does a ups take? 8? Switch? At least 1 each. How many 1sru patch pannels do they have? 10? San/nas? Voip phone system? Room for expansion? In a good network setup it's easy to use up 4 racks.

Does anyone on /. Work in networking any more?

Re:50-fold savings?

[Arancaytar]

The school only has 230 students. I have a hard time believing they'd need 192 servers

Ah, you've never used NT. :)

Re:50-fold savings?

[Hadlock]

I was thinking; 4 full racks is just good foresight. My office of 20 people had one full rack, and it had a display unit, a PBX unit, a 48 port switch, and the UPS near the bottom. You can stick one or two racks in a former broom closet, but if you're building at a new site, you might as well future proof it while you're at it.
 
The city of seattle has 400 fiber optic strands going to each municipal building, but only uses one. Does the author of this article suggest that since FiOS only sends one strand to the home, data compression has increased 400 fold since 1996? No -- it's because it's cheap, and you can future proof for only about 10% more.
 
I hate marketing.

Re:50-fold savings?

[Anonymous Coward]

4 racks for a network serving 230 Students?? Sir, you ain't going nowhere near my network!!

Re:50-fold savings?

[tsm_sf]

Does anyone on /. Work in networking any more?

The majority of /.ers are now young republicans (sorry, libertarians)in their first year of college, studying debate/rhetoric 101 and javascript. They've also just discovered ayn raynynnd. Still fat and greasy though, so at least we're keeping to some of our roots.

Re:50-fold savings?

[GNUALMAFUERTE]

Agreed. I don't know how big their network is, but I expect at least:

8 Us for Switch
8 Us of Patch pannels for Ethernet.
8 Us for PBX patch pannels
8 Us for the actual PBX + Accesories (Eg. ATAs, GSM -> SIP GWs, etc).
10 Us for UPS
6 Us for Audio system.
8 Us for Servers
4 Us for routers
20 Us for DIsplay/keyboard (2 Displays/kb on 2 different Racks)
10 Us for Power strips (across all racks)

And I'm missing a lot of things, probably.

That is 90 Us.

Off course, the first 10 or so Units in a Rack are rarely used, since they are not comfortable. If you add some space between equipments (It's good practice, also, many systems are not rackable, and they take up more space). That can take you to, let's say, 120 Us. Plus, some room for expansion.

4 Racks seems like a good setup to me.

Re:50-fold savings?

[Kjella]

That was clearly the weakest part of the article, yes. First of all, there's four racks of space, not proof that any school actually is using all that capacity. Perhaps even there aren't four racks, just four drawn in on the blueprint as possible to cram into the room, ignoring HVAC and such. I think it's more likely someone wanted a server room, and that is as "small" as they'd reasonably get. Yes, perhaps today a broom closet is enough but having an actual room is practical in many ways for the people that should install or upgrade or rewire or otherwise work on it. So maybe a few square meters wasted but compared to the total floor area I suspect minimal.

Re:50-fold savings?

[Anonymous Coward]

yes I had a hard time believing they needed 4 servers, and I was assuming the school must be ten times as big!

Re:50-fold savings?

[MichaelSmith]

The school only has 230 students.

Thats a pretty average school by southern hemisphere standards. My sons primary school in Australia has 100 students. A big secondary school might have 500 or so.

Re:50-fold savings?

[MichaelSmith]

Server room gear tends to get smaller over time too.

Re:50-fold savings?

[Bert64]

Our college (in 2000), with several thousand students and 500 workstations had a total of 6 servers...

Re:50-fold savings?

[Anonymous Coward]

The school's roll is projected to grow to 1400 within 5 years.

Re:50-fold savings?

[slyall]

1. The school is projected to grow to 1500 pupils over the next few years

2. The server room thing was the standard said they needed 8 racks of servers, instead they just needed 4 servers taking up less than half a rack.

Re:50-fold savings?

[L4t3r4lu5]

You shouldn't have listened to that Microsoft marketing droid so much. That's not the way Terminal Services works.

By the way, if you're having difficulty traveling between two points due to an obstruction, I might have a construction which will allow you to pass over it unhindered. For a modest price, of course...

Re:50-fold savings?

[millette]

When a server breaks, like google, they can just throw another one in without having to discard the junk. If it's good enough for google, it must be good enough for a 250 student school.

Re:50-fold savings?

[raju1kabir]

Off course, the first 10 or so Units in a Rack are rarely used, since they are not comfortable.

They're always used! You put a faceplate over them and stuff all the extra cables behind there in case you need them one day.

Re:50-fold savings?

[JohnBailey]

The school only has 230 students. I have a hard time believing they'd need 192 servers whether they used Linux or not.

Not heard of central provisioning then.. Standardised I.T. infrastructure mandates 192 servers per school reguardless of size+192 Windws server edition software+various resources reguardless of actual need. Somewhere there is a school that needs 237 servers, but only has 192 and can't get the extra alloocation because that would screw up the budgeting.

And BTW, as long as you're standing on my lawn, may I remind you that my own high school's expenditure on servers was exactly zero? How's that for savings?

Mine too. But then I'm old enough to have gone to school when computers were big complicated things that huge companies used. I also walked to school.. in the snow, uphill both ways..

Re:50-fold savings?

[Anonymous Coward]

Right, because droid doesn't.

Re:50-fold savings?

[Random_Goblin]

This is the same government that made a deal with Microsoft to pay them regardless of whether Microsoft's software was actually installed. That doesn't sound like the kind of logical decision making that leads to entertaining the notion that 230 students might not need 192 servers after all.

I can see a possible case where that might make sense.

If for example the cost of auditing what each machine was running was more than the discounted price offered by microsoft, ie just pay us a flat fee for every machine you have, dont worry about auditing it.

Having said that of course, I doubt that the deal microsoft worked out is anything like that fair.

However I would imagine part of the cost saving involved, is the schools are not being sued for unlicenced copies of windows, when they have 300 copies of office, but only 200 licences

Not that it makes it any less a protection racket from microsoft, but it might not be an entirely stupid move on behalf of the education department

Re:50-fold savings?

[Zumbs]

1. The school is projected to grow to 1500 pupils over the next few years

Where did you get that from? TFA only says that

In 2010, Albany SHS will move into new purpose-built premises, which include a dedicated server room

Re:50-fold savings?

[Anonymous Coward]

The majority of /.ers are now young republicans (sorry, libertarians)in their first year of college

Are you sure?

I thought most were Microsoft sockpuppets controlled by a marketing group based in a call center in Sheffield. That's how they do their "Reputation Management" these days.

Re:50-fold savings?

[aussie_a]

Really? In my high school we had 7 classes for years 7 to 10, with an indeterminate number of classes for years 11 and 12 (I left at this point). Each class on average would have had approximately 30 students, that's 840 + seniors for years 11 and 12.

Do you live in the country by any chance? Because I don't think my high school was unusually large for the western suburbs of Sydney.

Re:50-fold savings?

[MichaelSmith]

Yeah my guess of 500 could be too low. It has been a while, but schools here do tend to be smaller than overseas.

Re:50-fold savings?

[slyall]

I was at Linux.conf.au and saw the talk by the company that deployed the system

Re:50-fold savings?

[Hognoxious]

There's simply no such thing as too many servers.

Re:50-fold savings?

[Calinous]

Patch panels will certainly go smaller over time. UPS-es too, not to mention 24 and 48-ports switches and so on.

Re:50-fold savings?

[Anonymous Coward]

Agreed. I don't know how big their network is, but I expect at least:

8 Us for Switch
8 Us of Patch pannels for Ethernet.
8 Us for PBX patch pannels
8 Us for the actual PBX + Accesories (Eg. ATAs, GSM -> SIP GWs, etc).
10 Us for UPS
6 Us for Audio system.
8 Us for Servers
4 Us for routers
20 Us for DIsplay/keyboard (2 Displays/kb on 2 different Racks)
10 Us for Power strips (across all racks)

And I'm missing a lot of things, probably.

Yeah, like a clue. Seriously, 20 Us for displays/keyboards (one for each rack)? What's wrong with a 2U KVM switch with a slideout keyboard drawer and folding down LCD? Everyone makes them, and it's all I've seen in server rooms in the past 10 years or so. And you only need one for every 2-3 FULL racks if you're using IP-based KVMs.

And 10Us for power strips? Are you mad? Who doesn't buy server racks that don't already have PDUs built in? Most of them have PDUs built into the side that then feed power receptacles along the back edge of the uprights. No power strips needed.

Separate patch panels for PBX and Ethernet? Who builds a new facility these days and doesn't use VOIP? You can use the same patch panels and switches for your phone system and ethernet. Barring that, most non-VOIP PBXs don't use a traditional patch panel. They have a punch-down board mounted directly on the wall.

And 4 Us for routers? How many routers do you think you need for a school with 4 servers? Buy a 1U router that can accommodate 2-4 line cards and you have more than enough capability to accommodate any WAN/ISP connectivity that you need. For a site this size you wouldn't need an internal core router, you could accommodate everything that they need with a couple of stackable Layer 3 switches.

The 1980's called...they want their server closet back...

Re:50-fold savings?

[hitmark]

sounds like they used the services of a MSCE to calculate the space requirements. Its probably a AD setup using multiple computers for redundancy and availability, each serving exactly one part of the AD stack of services (so one do not loose the whole thing when a single box goes down). And then left enough room for in place upgrades or future requirements, racks are cheap after all.

its basically a case of using hardware to make up for limitations in software (plus indirectly maximizing the licenses sold).

Re:50-fold savings?

[quetwo]

I'm sure this server room won't hold things like : Routers/Switches, Patch Panels, Telco Equipment, Firewalls, HVAC, Emergency Annunicators, Video equipment, etc. Plus, there should never be any room for growth in a building that is scoped to last at least 50 years.

Come-on guys. let's do that common sence thing.

Re:50-fold savings?

[Whalou]

Are you the guy who managed to sell a bridge to nowhere in New Zealand?

Re:50-fold savings?

[Anonymous Coward]

Only on /. would 28 units of accessories per server get modded informative. Seriously, people: 6 units of audio system for a server room? Y'all need to get your humormeters checked.

Re:50-fold savings?

[crossmr]

20 Us for DIsplay/keyboard (2 Displays/kb on 2 different Racks)

On what planet?
Most manufacturers make a 1U display/keyboard combo. Used them all the time on the Dell/HP racks. It slides out and the display pops up.

the first 10 or so Units in a Rack are rarely used, since they are not comfortable.

They're a great place to put heavy raid arrays so as not to make the rack top heavy.
Have you ever actually been near a rack or only just seen one in a brochure left in an executive bathroom?

Re:50-fold savings?

[sfprairie]

You would be suprised, then. We don't have voip. My organization is still buying new Avaya phones that are seperate from the network. Of course, these idiots won't buy patch panels in our server room. Heck, they won't even buy fiber panels. You should see the spaghetti that connects our MDS san switch. Most of that fiber is wrapped up with 180 degree bends. 50 m cable to go two racks. Oh, and no, half of our racks don't have power strip built in. We were handed a bunch of cheap 6 plug power strips and told to use them. Got about 25 racks with some very expensive hardware with crap power and cable connections. No concept of layer 1 integrity or planning here. As far as the router, they may not have a choice. Could be provider owned and the model depends on the bandwidth selected.

Re:50-fold savings?

[L4t3r4lu5]

No no no, I sold a a completely different bridge

Re:50-fold savings?

[BlackHawk-666]

You're making an assumption the telephone gear is going to be mounted in the same rackspace as the servers. While that's possible it's by no means certain. The keyboard and display are usually on a single unit per rack, slide tray affair. Power management runs from the back of the units and can be on boards hanging off the rear. Not sure what audio system you're talking about, link please. I don't recall seeing any racks with 8 us of switching and 8 us of patching - going suggest these are handled for the most part outside the rack.

Re:50-fold savings?

[ckaminski]

I made the mistake of putting a patch panel in 18 of my 22 racks. All-in-all it was a waste of space. I lost an entire rack at to patch panels. I would have been FAR better off putting switches in each rack and backhauling via link-aggregated gigabit fiber. It would have cost me more over time (more switches), but would have required I spend less time doing cable management, and permanently losing 66U of rack space to patch panels and cable management. And I probably could have avoided spending $.3 million USD on a Catalyst 6500.

Re:50-fold savings?

[ckaminski]

UPSes on the bottom. Those fsckers are heavy.

Re:50-fold savings?

[ckaminski]

You should have moved across the valley then.

Re:50-fold savings?

[gad_zuki!]

>The majority of /.ers are now young republicans (sorry, libertarians)in their first year of college, studying debate/rhetoric 101 and javascript. They've also just discovered ayn raynynnd.

That explains a lot. The recent influx of "OMG RON PAUL CAN FIX EVERYTHING" and naive views now makes sense.

Re:50-fold savings?

[advocate_one]

folders? pah!... I seem to recall having the luxury of folders and files when running GEM 2 on my old Amstrad PC1512 with just 512 Kbytes of RAM...

I blame Microsoft... they've set computing back at least a decade...

Re:50-fold savings?

[Anonymous Coward]

I was one of the people that wrote the standards for the school. The outline of the requirements above is EXACTLY what we were thinking. We certainly weren't sitting there thinking "they will need 50 servers...:-)". The school sits on a gigabit fibre connection so a lot of the bog standard stuff is offsite.

The school is costing the Ministry of Education around $50-60m all up - dropping an extra $2k on a second comms cabinet, is a sensible idea, for when other technologies (that haven't been invented yet) turn up. (We wanted to leave space for a Minority Report server that would allow the school to predict bad behaviour by students prior to it happening).

Server cabinets ARE used for things other than servers.........

Re:50-fold savings?

[Anonymous Coward]

you didn't have a cafeteria????

Re:50-fold savings?

[minion]

And BTW, as long as you're standing on my lawn, may I remind you that my own high school's expenditure on servers was exactly zero? How's that for savings?

Wow, 4486, I thought my user-ID was old! . My HS had one server - a disgusting Netware server with Tolkin Ring to IBM PS/2s. We had DOS and we liked it. I tell ya, kids these days are spoiled rotten.

Re:50-fold savings?

[Hadlock]

So long as you have a federal level budget to pay for them

Re:50-fold savings?

[gmhowell]

Your user-ID is a sign of the influx of all the trendoids back during the dot-com era.

And in my HS, I think we had a couple of Apple //e's stashed somewhere.

Now get off my... Oh, what's it called? The green carpet that grows... Sorry, memory goes when you get this old.

Re:50-fold savings?

[Falconhell]

More like a google budget, were talking serious money here....

Re:50-fold savings?

[PCM2]

No worries, by comparison my award-winning suburban high school in California had a population of around 1,500 students (over four grades). It's probably much larger now that California has sunk to the bottom of the education rankings.

Re:50-fold savings?

[PCM2]

Haha, I'm right! I just looked at the school's Web page, and current enrollment is roughly 2,900 students.

Re:50-fold savings?

[Anonymous Coward]

Disregarding the whole stupidity of the "four racks" for a 250-student school (hell, I'm working for an IT company similarly sized and even with development/staging environments and multiple different environments for testing -different Windows and Linux versions and distributions, on top of structural IT we only need three racks -and that's because of older bigger equipment!), let's see what's about your claims:

"How many sru's does a ups take?"

0. If only because the heat, you have it outside the server room (anyway, for four servers it would take one to four Us -and given it's not critical systems and only on a 8-5 usage, they'd probably could afford going without SAI at all).

"Switch? At least 1 each."

A typical 42 ports managed switch will cost about the same than a typical x86 server, so it makes no difference. And if you are talking about the typical "expensive" rack usually found in shorter server rooms, probably the switch will be vertically positioned on the side of the rack taking away 0 srus.

"How many 1sru patch pannels do they have?"

Maybe you have a point here; let's see. You can have 42 ports per patch pannel unit, that makes one per rack (two if you use an start-end approach). That makes eight at most. If you count you racks being 40U instead of 42U to make your calcs easier, just a rounding error. Humm... no: you didn't have a point, after all.

"San/nas? Voip phone system?"

Are you implying they are going to be cheaper per-unit that "plain servers"? Because here we're are talking about full hardware costs. And then, have you stopped to thing that maybe when they say "four servers" they mean "four server and that's all"? (after all you don't need neither a big SAI, nor expensive SAN, nor patch pannels, nor a lot of switches when you manage to be served by just four computers, don't you?).

"In a good network setup it's easy to use up 4 racks."

Yes, it's easy for a 250 people company (or school) to use 4 racks... when the one signing the bills is a moron with a big wallet.

"Does anyone on /. Work in networking any more?"

Yes. Maybe that explains why you look like a stupid teenager to the people over here.

192 Server Capacity?

[Anonymous Coward]

OK, 4 racks * 48 servers/rack = 192 servers at new location.
They say they are getting by (right now) with only 4.

Is is because they just over built the location, or are they expecting to do something which needs more power on the back end?

Ah, just hit me while typing. Server Capacity might be better read as rack units available. 42U is about a 7 foot rack.
So maybe the someone assumed 1U servers (42/rack capacity) when it might end up being multi-unit NAS boxes or something?

Re:192 Server Capacity?

[wizardforce]

I suspect that the more servers that were used, the more MS gets paid in the deal. Combine that with governments' tendency to buy a lot of stuff that it doesn't need and the reasoning for using 192 servers becomes all too clear.

Re:192 Server Capacity?

[MichaelSmith]

OK, 4 racks * 48 servers/rack = 192 servers at new location

No wonder we are running short on IP addresses.

Re:192 Server Capacity?

[BlackHawk-666]

I can't believe someone gave you a mod point.

These addresses would all be in the private range e.g. 10.0.0.x

The school would only need a couple of IPs that are visible to the outside would - maybe as few as one if they only need to publish HTTP / FTP / etc.

Re:192 Server Capacity?

[MichaelSmith]

For some reason nobody is getting jokes today.

Re:192 Server Capacity?

[BlindBear]

I've got them so far, I still get paper phone books in BrisVegas too.Here is one for you.... I have heard claims by Microsoft that they (Microeffingsoft) make quality software. Have a great day, don't let the trolls and idiots get you down.

FTA

[wizardforce]

a long-standing contract with the national government means the software giant is paid for technology for the school even though none has been used.

Well isn't that lovely. Demonstrably corrupt.

Re:FTA

[Anonymous Coward]

Umm not really. New Zealand like many educational institutions license Microsoft and other software on behalf of the schools to provide them with a huge discount.

For example, here in Queensland, Aus, EQ (Education Queensland) have licensed microsoft software for all schools as well as limited 'take home' licenses for staff. The end result being XP, Office and Server software costs the school less than a few dollars per machine. Given 99% of schools run MS software I think this is a pretty great deal.

- Adrian.

Re:FTA

[Low Ranked Craig]

Demonstrably corrupt.

Not really. It's a volume license agreement for schools, etc. I don't see how "not-necessarily smart decision" == corruption, unless you know something we don't? And it could be a good business decision if the majority of the schools use Windows, etc - the volume discounts can be significant.

Re:FTA

[Nightspirit]

It makes more sense to me to blanket license a country than negotiate licenses for individual schools. While some schools may not use MS software, the country probably still saves money in the long run compared to negotiating for each school.

Re:FTA

[Anonymous Coward]

It's called a 'loss leader'.... the kids produced by this system will not know that there are alternatives and be on the hook for full priced retail software for life... so yes, it's a very good deal... for MS.

Re:FTA

[Idiomatick]

Volume licenses are normally something like 60% off if you buy over 50,000 licenses. Not... give us 50million and you can use w/e you like. Not a huge deal still but easily avoided and kinda crappy for the open source advocates.

Re:FTA

[WeirdJohn]

The catch in Queensland is that unless you are using the MOI (mandated operating interface) you are screwed. Using Firefox? Sorry, can't help you. OO.org? Same thing. Not Outlook? Then it's your fault you have an email issue. Does AVG show a virus? Not a mandated scanner, so you are NOT infected. Try using squeak in the classroom, and you get slapped. Don't use linux, or cygwin etc. In fact any non-approved software can (and often will) be deleted if your laptop is dropped into Information Services, as your problem is put down to "non-mandated software" as the 1st option.

This clearly makes support simpler, but can make teaching more challenging, especially if you want the kids to use computers as tools for thinking, and not just document management systems.

Re:FTA

[thoughtfulbloke]

And you would be exactly correct. To provide some added context, when the government was negotiating the 2007-2009 volume licence period, it was not economical to get a full New Zealand wide licence for schools for Microsoft Office for the Macintosh so that part of the licence was dropped. The recommendation was to substitute iWork (via an NZ wide licence negotiated via Apple) or Open Office (or buy individual MS for Mac licences). The Ministry of Education works out how many copies are in use, and if it is worth a nation-wide site licence.
Keep in mind that, in New Zealand, the software that is used in schools will ultimately be paid for by the Ministry of Education either through a general licences or as part of the budgets devolved to schools, so it is in the Ministries interest to minimise the overall cost.
And, as a semi-aside New Zealand has been the least corrupt country on Transparency International's index pretty much every year since 2003 (some years were ties with Denmark), and the volume licence was an example of the Government serving the needs of individual schools well (who were going to use MS stuff anyway), rather than a corrupt deal.

Re:FTA

[rtb61]

It is inherently corrupt as it financially excludes the use of all other competing software, be it open source or proprietary. I assume the contract would also be for an extended number of years. The purpose of the contract is quite simply to burden every industry that wants to hire those students with the cost of retraining them to open source software and then the marketdroid schills claiming those cost as a disadvantage of using open source and all of it willing supported by the New Zealand government.

All this when there was a free choice that would not burden the citizens of New Zealand with additional foreign debt as well as loading New Zealand business with additional foreign debt to buy the locked in from childhood software so that they make immediate use of the students upon their leaving school. the contract is corrupt in every method of it's application and, it is impossible to believe the people responsible for making the purchases where blind to the long term costs to New Zealand for the choices they were making, unless of course the blindness was induced by things other than what was in the best interests of the New Zealand people.

Re:FTA

[Anonymous Coward]

> I don't see how "not-necessarily smart decision" == corruption, unless you know something we don't?

The guy is just incompetent, his superior is either also incompetent or corrupt. This goes up all the way until the prime-minister (or President, ultimately). If they are incompetent, too, you have a case of a corrupted election process.

Corrupt don't always mean just stealing, but also diverting a process from its proper goals, like e.g. putting a moron with the brain of a small plant to "control" a powerful nation.

Re:FTA

[sensationull]

It does not help that TFA is wrong, only schools that sign up are included and paid for by the government. If this retard signed up then went linux it is not the governments fault.

Re:FTA

[Anonymous Coward]

The alternatives don't work in the real world anyway, so who cares?

Re:192 Server Capacity? s/42/48 in above post...

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't do math right now.
So when I say 42 I mean 48.
Since 7 foot = 84 inches. If 1U = 1.75inches, 84/1.75 = 48.

Not There Yet

[Tablizer]

I just installed Ubuntu on my kid's computer, and I must say it still has relatively poor UI design. It's still a geek toy half-ass trying to be "user-friendly". Common things are not made easy and intuitive. I had to type text paths to set up folder shortcuts on the desktops, for example, and once set up could not change the paths without starting over. Setting up a place for common desktop items, equivalent to Windows "all users", was a bear.

It needs some real hands-on user-in-action observations rather than features that geeks THINK users want. Geeks know technology, but they don't know users. I was generally disappointed. Sure, Windows sometimes has stupid conventions also, but in order to unseat Windows you have be better, not a mere peer in annoyingness.

Re:Not There Yet

[BiggerIsBetter]

Common things are not made easy and intuitive. I had to type text paths to set up folder shortcuts on the desktops, for example...

Right-click the item/folder of interest, "Make Link", drag new "shortcut" to Desktop, rename as desired.

Re:Not There Yet

[whoever57]

Your argument is that because Linux is not like Windows, it will never supplant it. But, a copy of Windows will never be as good at being Windows-like than Windows itself, so attempting to mimic Windows is a losing strategy.

IMHO there are many ways in which Linux is better than Windows. I am able to work much faster under Linux than I can do under Windows and I find doing almost anything under Windows an exercise in frustration.

Re:Not There Yet

[Anonymous Coward]

An even bigger problem is people who try Linux expecting it to be an identical clone of windows.

Re:Not There Yet

[cr_nucleus]

As stated in other replies, you can right click to create a link, but you can also press shift+ctrl while dragging and the drop action will be to create a link. This kind of behavior modifier is standard in windows, osx & linux.

Re:Not There Yet

[Anonymous Coward]

wtf? thats easy. Read a book on ubuntu.. any book, you can choose it.
Your just2use to the windows way of doing things (aka the gay way, but not the good kind of homo gay way.. the one with all the dancing that isn't love based, i.e., old gay (akaka gay gay))
You'd have probably had the same complaint moving to OS X, just because you know a way of setting something up doesn't mean thats its the only way nor does it mean its the best way.

Re:Not There Yet

[hughbar]

Pretty nearly. Two recent experiments:

1. I didn't tell a houseguest that my desktops are Ubuntu now (used to be XP) and they managed to login/surf without any help
2. Computer drop in for older people using Ubuntu, I had to tell one user where to find the word processor and I now have a one page 'manual', everyone fairly happy

None of this is statistically significant, of course, but these users certainly aren't 'power' users. Actually there are two other points here:

3. You can arrange the desktop to look pretty much like XP, if you really really want (to quote the immortal Spice Girls)
4. Knowing a couple of desktops enables you to generalise, an important education theory win

Re:Not There Yet

[mgblst]

Don't worry, your kid has probably figured it all out by now. You can go back to Windows.

Re:Not There Yet

[Pastis]

> I had to type text paths to set up folder shortcuts on the desktops

with the mouse, it works the same as on Windows: click the folder + CTRL+SHIFT drag it on the desktop. Rename it if you need later on.

Or right click, Make link, move/rename it.

Contextual menu is there to help, in most case.

> Setting up a place for common desktop items, equivalent to Windows "all users", was a bear.

There doesn't seem to be a GUI for it.

http://library.gnome.org/admin/system-admin-guide/stable/menustructure-2.html.en

I personally don't have the need for it. On my setups the programs I install all have their .desktop with them. I.e. the package of the program comes with the menu.

What are you trying to achieve exactly ? which programs are missing in your menus ?

Maybe you're trying to do something that comes from your Windows experience, and thus should be doing in a different way on a Linux system ?

Re:Not There Yet

[Anonymous Coward]

So, just like you would in Windows, then?

Re:Not There Yet

[Inda]

Too. Many. Steps.

Or doesn't "SHIFT + CTRL + Drag folder to desktop" work?

Re:Not There Yet

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure, Windows sometimes has stupid conventions also, but in order to unseat Windows you have be better, not a mere peer in annoyingness.

I like to call this the 'And a blowjob' argument.

'A should do everything B does plus everything A does plus most of what C does, or it will never, ever be useful. Oh, and it should give me a blowjob, too.'

They don't want a good alternative, they want a superior version of what they already have but for free.

Re:Not There Yet

[Bert64]

The problem is that people are resistant to change, and don't like learning new things, even if doing so would benefit them...
So they will complain about anything different, and then try to use it as if it was the same (ie not taking advantage of any advanced features)...

Re:Not There Yet

[aussie_a]

I used Linux for 6 months on fairly standard hardware. Ultimately I found it to be lacking in several areas so I bought a license for Windows XP (I know! I actually paid for the software I use. Shock horror!).

Linux is great. But I don't feel its quite ready for mainstream use just yet.

Re:Not There Yet

[RMS Eats Toejam]

I am able to work much faster under Linux than I can do under Windows and I find doing almost anything under Windows an exercise in frustration.

Good for you, but you are only one person and hardly represent a typical computer user. Hell, you don't even represent all of Slashdot. I find Linux slow, cumbersome, and aggravating to use. It literally feels like I'm using an OS that was produced by a joint venture between Fred Sanford and Fisher Price. I can't see why anyone would use it for anything except servers or embedded devices where user friendliness, software selection, and charm take a back seat to cost and customization. Unless of course they had an irrational hatred for Microsoft or proprietary software in general.

Tablizer's point, which you missed, was that for a majority of people Windows represents how things should be. It's the status quo for the desktop. By no means do I wish to imply that Linux will ever reach widespread use for everyday computer users, but your attitude certainly doesn't help the situation.

Re:Not There Yet

[Anonymous Coward]

I used Linux for 6 months on fairly standard hardware. Ultimately I found it to be lacking in several areas so I bought a license for Windows XP (I know! I actually paid for the software I use. Shock horror!).

Linux is great. But I don't feel its quite ready for mainstream use just yet.

I'm sure that while the deficiencies of linux compared to windows were obvious to you because of your previous experience with windows, you were probably unaware of many of the things about linux that are superior, simply because you have never experienced them.

I consider a decent software updating system to be core basic functionality. As in, if a system doesn't have that, it is not ready for real use. Windows doesn't have it, however they have got most people accustomed to not having it. All my software is updated automatically, without user intervention. On windows, firefox notifies me when updates are available but since I run as a limited user it won't update, I have to log in as admin, run firefox, install the update, log out then go back to the user account. How anybody could consider that process being necessary for pretty much every third party application as acceptable defies reason.

I have a second hand box that "just works" with Fedora 12. I upgraded the IDE DVD to a SATA DVD-RW. The windows XP installation disks that came with it don't work unless I reinstall the old DVD because they don't have drivers for the DVD-RW. Seriously? So I have to keep an old DVD drive around in case I ever need to repair or reinstall windows. I only need windows once a year to file my tax because of my corrupt, lazy government, but it gives me more trouble than linux does year round.

Re:Not There Yet

[jedidiah]

Tabilizer is a big fat liar.

Your willingness to defend him and engage in empty rhetoric really doesn't change that.

Re:Not There Yet

[jedidiah]

Need to run a single proprietary Win32 program or website?

Just run them inside of a virtual machine in VMware or VirtualBox.

There's no need to bother with an entirely separate machine even for something like iTunes or AnyDVD.

Re:Not There Yet

[jellyfrog]

Middle-click drag? And why the fuck would you want "all users" desktop items? They were one of main irritations I had back when I used windows. Random icons on my desktop that I can't get rid of without administrator priviledges? No thanks.

Re:Not There Yet

[Tablizer]

Tabilizer is a big fat liar.

Not true! I've lost weight ;-)
   

Re:Not There Yet

[Tablizer]

'A should do everything B does plus everything A does plus most of what C does, or it will never, ever be useful.

I said "wouldn't be accepted", NOT that it "wouldn't be useful". I am describing users as they are, not as we may want them to be.
       

Re:Not There Yet

[Bert64]

AC has got a point, if you just try something for a short period and don't get to know the individual advantages it offers...

People who have used linux for years and try windows for a few months typically hate it even more and find it hugely lacking.

People are also resistant to change, don't like trying anything new and won't give it a proper effort if they do. You see long time windows users giving linux or macos a brief try, where they don't try to make use of workspaces (something i find absolutely essential), or the quick mouse based cut+paste of linux (middle button to paste, much quicker than right button for a context menu, then moving down to paste which most windows users do).

Re:Not There Yet

[Tablizer]

Don't worry, your kid has probably figured it all out by now. You can go back to Windows.

You might be right; they seem more eager to explore obscure nooks and crannies and have sharper eyes. However, that exploration tilt is possibly why Windows got hosed up in the first place.
       

Re:Not There Yet

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't have a separate machine for it, I have a dual boot set up. The XP set up disks I have won't work with a different DVD, I doubt they'd work in a VM.

Really, the proper solution is for the government to stop requiring the use of windows to file taxes electronically, or I suppose I could accept a total tax exemption for people who don't have windows ;-)

Re:Not There Yet

[BlindBear]

FWIW,I have had great success running Win2k and WinXP Virtual Box VMs, latest version 3.1.2 runs great on Ubuntu 9.10 64bit. If you have the speed/power this is your answer. I tried the ATO "E record" application in wine last year (Ubuntu 9.04 64bit AMD 5200) and it ran very fast, but I did not "fiddle with the knobs and dials" so to speak, it may be worth it for you to try that.Ubuntu has Wine 1.31 in their repos now and it runs some of my old windows games.I am sure that Fedora will be at least as advanced. If you poke around in your relevant forum/fora you may be pleasantly surprised. Good luck !

Re:Not There Yet

[Falconhell]

The Spice Girls are living dead or vampires eh?

Figures.

Re:Not There Yet

[Anonymous Coward]

FWIW,I have had great success running Win2k and WinXP Virtual Box VMs, latest version 3.1.2 runs great on Ubuntu 9.10 64bit. If you have the speed/power this is your answer.

You also need a proper windows installation disk. I only have the recovery disk set that came with the computer. I have used the 2007 server demo one year.

I tried the ATO "E record" application in wine last year

etax on the other hand stopped working for me in wine about 2 years ago.

Good luck !

I'd rather not depend on good luck, but have the government stop requiring the use of a single corporations product for the whole country. It should be illegal, government officials involved should be fired at the least, possibly investigated for corruption as well. The government has no right to enforce a monopoly position in this manner.

Fifty fold savings in servers? Awful writing.

[rdunnell]

So the article basically says that they have a machine room with four somewhat standard racks. That's pretty small. Figure that at some point you'll need some network gear which will likely take up at least one of the racks (switches, patch panels to other areas of the building, routers/firewalls), hopefully some UPS gear, a few servers.. four 48U racks doesn't go very far. And it only makes sense nowadays to have a couple larger servers hosting a bunch of virtual machines for mundane things. They would be wise to do that no matter what OS they run, and that more than anything is why you can cut down on the number of physical machines that are installed.

You did it the hard way

[Old Man Kensey]

There's an easier way to create folder shortcuts on the desktop, which doesn't involve typing text paths: Right-click on the folder you want a shortcut to. Click "Make link". Drag the link to the desktop. Rename it if desired.

I'm not sure if the lack of "all users"-type functionality is a deficiency in Ubuntu, or an annoyance in Windows. For a single-user desktop, "All Users" is completely unnecessary, and on multi-user desktops I've more often seen it lead to annoyances than actually be useful. Google Chrome's Windows installer actually installs the program to the user desktop only by default, which will become more common as UAC-type enforcement on the Windows desktop becomes more common.

Re:You did it the hard way

[BikeHelmet]

I'm annoyed by All Users.

A couple times now games have half-crashed my desktop. When Explorer starts up again, anything that was in All Users is missing. That's half the desktop icons, and most of the start menu. A reboot fixes it, but the first time it happened I was scratching my head for a few minutes. :P

It really isn't necessary, especially since Windows security is starting to line up with Linux. (Installing apps per profile and stuff)

Re:You did it the hard way

[Tablizer]

So if there are 4 users, then you suggest manually re-creating 4 sets of icons/shortcuts four times? I don't see how this is "progress". They are only references to locations of EXE's, not actual files, so why are they allegedly a security risk?

Re:You did it the hard way

[BikeHelmet]

They are only references to locations of EXE's, not actual files, so why are they allegedly a security risk?

I'm guessing you don't know much about .lnk files or their history?

Until Vista, shortcuts (.lnk files) were basically more dangerous than downloading an exe and running it. A mostly unmentioned problem, though known to anyone in the field. (on either side)

It's trivially easy dumping a malicious .lnk file on the XP desktop, preventing Windows from starting normally or in safe mode. Time for a clean format!.. unless you want to boot up a linux distro to delete it.

P.S. A program or installer running under an admin account could still put shortcuts on the desktops and start menus of every profile. I just don't see the need for "All Users". If one user deletes it, it vanishes for all the rest.

Re:You did it the hard way

[Falconhell]

"I'm annoyed by All Users"

Yeh me too.

Oh wait you mean the folder.... (:

Of leaping we go...

[Johnny Mnemonic]

including four racks each capable of holding 48 servers for its main systems. The main infrastructure at Albany Senior High only requires four servers, suggesting an almost 50-fold saving on hardware requirements.

That is a frankly hilarious leap of inference. If you have a 4 door car, that means that you always travel with 5 adults, right? I mean, c'mon. It's statements like that that make OSS guys seem like wild-eyed loony tunes. Instead of making ridiculous, bold statements, why don't you, y'know, do some homework? How many servers do they really use, regardless of how many racks they have? It might be 4-8 big ones. That would be an interesting statement of fact, and would demonstrate the value of OSS. Instead, you just seem lazy and not able to objectively gather data.

You're doing it wrong.

[a0schweitzer]

The idea behind Ubuntu (and desktop linux in general), is that it is a multi-user OS. Multi-user in the sense that the administrator determines what a user can do, and the user can do anything they want within these limits. There is no need for easily accessible multi-user desktop-shortcuts, because each user should be allowed to set up their own desktop the way they want it. You just have to shift the way you think about your desktop environment a little bit.

Re:You're doing it wrong.

[Tablizer]

because each user should be allowed to set up their own desktop the way they want it.

I was trying to make things easy for them to get started and ease into those kinds of things gradually. They are already upset enough about changes (going away from Windows); that would just compound things. I didn't plan to do it that way for mere amusement, I had a reason.

You just have to shift the way you think about your desktop environment a little bit.

Why? Technology should enable what we wish to do, not what the machine maker wants. Unless you can prove it kills kittens or what-not, why not give the user of the software what they want?

Mod me to oblivion again for expressing my opinion, but you guys seem over-protective of an awkward baby instead of admitting it's awkward. If you want to "sell" Linux, you better find ways to relate to customers beyond patronization. I'm just the messenger.

Re:You're doing it wrong.

[WeatherGod]

You could try adding those things to the appropriate place in the /etc/skel directory. Every new account will use the skeleton directory as a template, thereby letting you create a more robust initial account profile.

Re:You're doing it wrong.

[Tablizer]

Perhaps, but I'm also looking at this from the standpoint of an "average user". Fiddling at the command prompt for relatively common needs is "unacceptable" by today's standards.

Sure, we'd collectively like the demand if they had to rent nerds at $50/hr or whatnot to set stuff up for them in their homes, but that's not going happen. People would rather pay the MS tax instead and use what they know to do it themselves.

If Linux is not going to have the same look and feel as Windows, at least make it easy to find and do equivalent things from the GUI. Using similar terminology, such as "folders" instead of "directories", and "shortcuts" instead of "links", would also help. Windows lingo is the de-facto "language" of OS's, for good or bad.

Re:You're doing it wrong.

[a0schweitzer]

Hmm, maybe you're right. After some google-ing it appears you can click-and-drag with the middle mouse button to get the 'past link' menu option. You can also browse etc/skel with nautilus in root (with an extension). So you could do all of this with GUI. But you're right, those are extra, and definitely not easily identified, steps.

Re:Fifty fold savings in servers? Awful writing.

[Old Man Kensey]

And it only makes sense nowadays to have a couple larger servers hosting a bunch of virtual machines for mundane things. They would be wise to do that no matter what OS they run, and that more than anything is why you can cut down on the number of physical machines that are installed.

So much this. The latest virtual-desktop stuff from VMware is pretty spiffy. It really is now possible to run both useful virtual servers and useful virtual desktops, and at the same time simplify all the support infrastructure (backups, AV, server/desktop config control, etc.) considerably. A couple of 5U PowerEdge servers running vSphere can probably do everything a 230-student school needs quite handily.

It also would be nice in this instance especially as it would allow students to flip effortlessly back and forth between a Linux-desktop VM and a Windows-desktop VM -- because let's face it, Office and Windows are not going away anytime soon, and students need to be at least minimally conversant with them if they're going to survive in the modern computing world.

Fifty fold usage of servers? Awful writing.

[Anonymous Coward]

The writing implies that a Windows solution will take 48 servers.

Re:Fifty fold usage of servers? Awful writing.

[PAjamian]

Actually the writing implies that a Windows solution will take four racks of 48 servers each or 192 servers.

congrats.

[timmarhy]

now your students will have no idea what to do when they go out into the real world of business where everything is microsoft.

you MIGHT have saved a few bucks at the students expense. bravo.

Re:congrats.

[JoshDD]

You mean like the London Stock Exchange?

Re:congrats.

[timmarhy]

do you really want to start comparing market share ? because you'll lose.

Re:congrats.

[Anonymous Coward]

now your students will have no idea what to do when they go out into the real world of business where everything is microsoft.

you MIGHT have saved a few bucks at the students expense. bravo.

Now the students have a more clear image of the world of software, most likely their parents use MS products at home and they face the challenge of interchanging formats between software platforms. If they move on to higher education, they come better prepared, for universities and research institutes haven't bothered much with Microsoft products for years.

(sarcasm) But by all means, let one company deal with everything and decide what formats we're supposed to use and what you can do with it.(/sarcasm).

Re:congrats.

[obarthelemy]

It's not that bad. For what most people do, Windows and Linux, OOo and MS Office... work pretty much the same.

What has MS worried, and why they want ot make their stuff essentially free for schools (or , as in NZ, a once-off national license, implying no marginal costs when a school chooses Windows and Office), is that all students for that school will know about Linux.

Hopefully, Linux will be good enough so that the students will be satisfied with it.

Re:congrats.

[belmolis]

If there is a case for some students learning specific MS programs, they can always run them on the student's own MS system or under the hypervisor. For many purposes, such as email and web-surfing, it makes little difference which specific program and OS the students use. Students who learn to use a spreadsheet or a word processor on Ubuntu will learn not only how to use those particular programs but the concepts behind them. Learning to use another program at work won't be that hard if they already know how to use the same kind of program.

Re:congrats.

[Veyasu]

Everything is Microsoft because all everyone know is Microsoft. Thats why everyone should be learning Microsoft. See how this is a vicious circle thats not really profiting anyone but Microsoft?

Re:congrats.

[timmarhy]

maybe for the likes of you and I, but for most people out there just moving the button across the screen stumps them.

i'd be pissed off if my kid was being taught to use applications 99% of the business world don't use.

Re:congrats.

[Casandro]

Yay! By that logic most people would fail in the real world of business.
You know when I went to school, we had a real world business system from Microsoft. We had Microsoft Works for Xenix and Microsoft Works for DOS. State of the art systems as Microsoft surely called them back then.

It's no use teaching children about feature 5432 of version 54.22.154.12.b of some software product as it will disappear or be made obsolete by some other function in the next version, often by the time the teacher actually gets ot teach what he has learnt.

What does matter is teaching what those programs are about. What is a word processor? What are the typical features of such a piece of software? It doesn't matter if you teach that with Microsoft Word 95 or Open Office, in fact Open Office has the advantage of being available to the children.

No matter what software product you will use as an example, by the time the children start working, it will be long obsolete.

Re:congrats.

[micheas]

maybe for the likes of you and I, but for most people out there just moving the button across the screen stumps them.

i'd be pissed off if my kid was being taught to use applications 99% of the business world don't use.

99% of the world won't be using any 2010 software in 2020.

20 years ago IRIX was what you needed to know if you wanted to do CGI work.

Now IRIX has been replaced by OSX, Linux, and Windows XP/7

I don't get this fascination with teaching kids what is used by the business world.

In twenty years the business world will be running the software written by the kids in elementary school today.

Every kid should use a word processor that he or she wrote, at least once.

The ability to go, "where would I have put that?", makes learning random programs much easier.

Finally, I deserve to be moderated down for responding to a troll

Re:congrats.

[Duke.Leto.Atreides]

You must have been royally pissed off when MS screwed your kid over with the ribbon in Office 2007.

Re:congrats.

[timmarhy]

You are meant to be giving kids the tools to cope in the real world that they will be going into in the very near future, not 10 years time. If they want to learn to program or some other advanced topic then secondary education is where they will learn those skills.

swapping a school to free software to save few buckets and satisfy some nerds linux fetish = failing at education.

Re:congrats.

[timmarhy]

so why use linux then? after all they already have a bulk license that's paid for by the government, there's no extra cost to use windows.

Re:congrats.

[Anonymous Coward]

Such people are asymptotically extinct.

Re:congrats.

[Bert64]

They would be better off *not* using ms products for the majority of their learning...
When I attended school, the school computers came with wordperfect and that's what we had to learn... Who uses wordperfect now? And this was wordperfect for dos we learnt, the current wordperfect versions as well as not being widely used, are completely different to the dos version anyway.
What schoolkids will find in schools today will not necessarily be what's widely used when they leave school.

So what you need to do, is teach the kids multiple programs, and teach them to think for themselves...
Don't teach them where to find a button to do X, teach them why they want to do X, and what such a function is likely to be called and have them work out for themselves how to do the same thing in multiple different programs. Teach them properly like this, and they will be prepared for whatever they encounter when they leave school and not tied to specific applications that have long since been forgotten.

The whole purpose of a school is to teach, if the result of the school's teaching means they get stumped when a button moves then the school has done a piss poor job... Buttons move around all the time, not just in computer programs... My TV has buttons on the side or the remote control for controlling it, my older TV had no remote control and had buttons on the front. In my car you need to twist one of the storks attached to the steering column to activate the headlamps, on the car i had before there was a knob you had to turn embedded into the dashboard.

Personally i'd be far more pissed if my kids were being taught in such a half assed manner that made them dependent on what's available today from a single supplier, which in no way prepares them for what might be available tomorrow.

I want my kids to learn how to think for themselves, not be indoctrinated by microsoft...

Re:congrats.

[tburkhol]

swapping a school to free software to save few buckets and satisfy some nerds linux fetish = failing at education.

Training kids to operate one specific manufacturer's equipment = failing at education.

Seriously: will the kids in your world be employable if you teach them Office 2007 when all the companies have migrated to Office 2010? Will they all get laid off when the company switches to Office 2014? Will Taco Bell hire them if you've only trained them to use McDonald's cash registers? If you teach your kids to be mindless drones, then when employers need to find people who can solve problems, figure things out for themselves, and otherwise contribute to the business, they'll be hiring H1Bs and outsourcing. Thanks for killing the country's competitiveness.

Re:congrats.

[Anonymous Coward]

While I was in school in micro-electronics, they only taught us the 2 or 3 first variants of the x86 Intel CPU line.
At this time the Pentium 4 was in the works, so we were wondering why not study this directly.

The teacher said that by the time we would be in the industry everything would've changed.

Moreover he said that what's really important is to understand the way the system works, so that you'll have the tools to study and understand the dozens or so CPU generations you're likely to work with.

Anyway we still reviewed the basic principle behind the new generation (bigger pipeline => smaller blocs => bigger frequency)
but ironically we now know this was a mistake and Intel rolled back to the P3 with the Core architecture...

So just memorising the architecture of the P4 would've beeen a waste of time: it won't help you understand other CPUs and this knowledge would be obsolete in no time. (it already is, think about 30 years from now...)

....

I think the same applies to software (and we did it the same way in school: windows was for the chemestry stundents, linux for comp sci).

Students need to be taught how does "Word Processors" works, not how to work with "Microsoft Word".
Eventually in the "real world" it will be easy for them to re-train to use their company's W.P. of choice, ten times throughout the course of their careers.
Learning the quirks of some particular piece of software is good in the enterprise, when you need to use that software, but it's a waste of time during education.

...

Then there's the mono-culture problem: if you're only taught about a single implementation you don't even realize there's some more generic principle behind it. When presented with an alternative, you're mind will struggle with this idea and will just view the two as separate.

The same thing applies with foreign language learning: if you're taught only one language as a kid you'll lack the abstraction needed to easily "register" a new language and learning it will be very hard, while bi-lingual kids can learn 3 more languages in the same time.

...

Don't be fooled by Micosoft, this mono-culture is only beneficial to them...

Re:congrats.

[Hognoxious]

Sigh. When do you think a six year old will be arriving in the workforce? Do the math (or get a six year old to do it for you).

Even considering a twelve year old, the stuff they'll be using hasn't even been written yet.

Re:congrats.

[jedidiah]

> now your students will have no idea what to do when they go out into the real world of business where everything is microsoft.
>
> you MIGHT have saved a few bucks at the students expense. bravo.

This is of course nonsense.

If the student hasn't learned things in the abstract and is unable to move
from word processor to word processor or whatnot pretty much at will then
the relevant education has already failed him. This will manifest the next
time Microsoft decides to pull another Office 2007.

Kids today aren't quite as stupid as their predecessors. So the need to
fixate on a particular brand of application really isn't there so much.

Re:congrats.

[Daengbo]

MS or Linux, I don't really care, but your argument is rubbish. Unless you run a technical college, never choose software based on what people are using now; base your decision on what they will be running in 20-$CURRENTAGE years. For most values of $CURRENTAGE for school children, that software doesn't exist yet, so you're just going to have to guess. Oh, yeah, and you'll probably guess wrong.

I'm going to guess that just about everything in ten years' time will be Internet based. I think going with Moodle + Mahara was a good choice.

Re:congrats.

[jc79]

now your students will have no idea what to do when they go out into the real world of business where everything is microsoft.

Like, open the word processor, type the document, click save, click print? Even if I'd never used Microsoft products before in my life, I'm pretty sure I could figure that out in 5 minutes.

Kids shouldn't be rote-learning a particular GUI (which will probably change - Ribbon Interface, anyone?); they should be able to generalise.

What happens if a kid only uses MS at school and home and then gets a job in an office where only Macs are used?

Re:congrats.

[tinkerghost]

You are meant to be giving kids the tools to cope in the real world that they will be going into in the very near future, not 10 years time.

How stupid of me, here I though that the goal of giving students an education was to give kids the tools to cope in the real world for the rest of their lives. Things like balancing your checkbook, understanding basic economics, logic, problem solving - you know generally how to think for themselves so they don't have to call help desk every 5 minutes because they can't figure out that "Saving a file" should be under the "File" menu.

My wife's office just switched from an AS400 terminal for order entry/customer service to a graphical front end for the same system. After 2 weeks, flipping between customer management and order entry by clicking on the tabs marked 'Order Entry' and 'Customer Management' is still a concept to 3 out of the 5 people in the office are unable to grasp. This is an example of the results of your "teaching to cope with the real world they will be going into in the very near future".

Because schools are so focused on teaching specifics and facts, they are currently failing to teach thinking as a skill. It is not a new problem, nor is it a problem with easy solutions. Worse, the solutions that do work, are not suitable to implementation in large groups - especially if a small number of members of those groups have no desire to learn.

So, I will say I agree with:

swapping a school to free software to save few buckets and satisfy some nerds linux fetish = failing at education.

However, discarding the software flavor of the day in order to provide an opportunity to actually teach instead of prompting more rote learning is a bold move for which this school should be lauded.

Re:congrats.

[Anonymous Coward]

Another retard who doesn't understand that implementation is what matters most (by a long shot), not the OS or runtime environment. Here's a clue: You could write an absolutely stunningly responsive high performance stock system in .NET. You could write one in Java. You could write one that runs on Linux. You could write one that runs on Windows. You could write one that runs on Solaris. What's important is the architecture and design of the system. Anyone who's even moderately competent should understand that.

Re:congrats.

[Teun]

Your remark shows immaturity in the field of education.

A good school is not about learning you monkey-tricks on a specific tool, quite the contrary they'll teach you the essence of a task and enable you to fill in the details by yourself.
Because of the nature of Linux chances of learning more in depth details are not accidental but rather an integral part, you are bound to get more able computer uses than by only teaching them Windows short cuts.

As car analogies are so popular, why teach a student to only drive a Lada when a Porsche would be so much more rewarding?

Re:congrats.

[Teun]

And when your school board would be as dumb as you that's exactly the kind of (computer) knowledge your kids would come out of school with, none.

You shouldn't teach applications to kids but the inquisitiveness to find solutions, for computers Linux is probably one of the best ways to do so.

Re:congrats.

[Teun]

Damn, how you keep repeating this simplistic and damaging stuff!

Teaching kids is about preparing them to act flexible to an ever faster changing world and IT is probably the fastest mover.
Treating them as mindless drones that can only press buttons on today's version of a very specific machine/application is a sure way to frustration in the job market.

Re:congrats.

[Teun]

Because cost to the school encompasses more than the license.

And because from an educational standpoint there is so little merit in going the MS (monopoly!) way.

Here we have a typical example of a win-win situation, it costs considerable less and you get a lot more.

Re:congrats.

[Tablizer]

no idea what to do when they go out into the real world of business where everything is microsoft.

I notice that anybody who criticizes Linux in any way is at heavy risk of being modded to oblivion. The refs seem to be favoring the home team.

The above is a very good point and deserves serious consideration. The world speaks Microsoft and if you learn something else you will be at a disadvantage. You are asking that they sacrifice that knowledge and be at a disadvantage in order to assist in reducing MS's influence. What is good for the individual is not necessarily good for all of society and vice verse. This problem is sometimes called "QWERTY Syndrome" and "Nash Equilibrium" I believe.
     

Re:congrats.

[Tablizer]

It's no use teaching children about feature 5432 of version 54.22.154.12.b of some software product as it will disappear or be made obsolete by some other function in [future] version

That's definitely true for younger students, but also consider that many students have to switch back and forth between a school PC and a home PC. If they are different OS's and their parents can't help them navigate the differences, they may be at a disadvantage.
   

Re:congrats.

[ChrisMaple]

In actuality, most work is done at the application level. The user has only minimal interaction with the OS, and much of that interaction is similar between Windows/Linux. Linux has by default more easily available power (bash shell). This means that a Linux user unfamiliar with Windows will find it difficult to do some things in Windows and have to learn tedious workarounds. A Windows user trying to use Linux will be ignorant of the greater power available, and procede at his Windows-limited rate.

It's not true that all of the real world of business is Microsoft. It's dominant, and some degree of compatibility is needed, but not all business needs Windows and the fraction that does is shrinking.

What is good for the individual is not necessarily good for all of society and vice verse.

Most people will assume your statement means "screw the individual, society is all that matters", and I think that's what you meant. Furthermore, I'll point out that whenever an individual's good differs from someone else's good, the good of all of society does not exist, because one person or the other must be excluded from the "all".

Re:congrats.

[JoshDD]

Market share does not a good product mean.

Re:congrats.

[Tablizer]

In actuality, most work is done at the application level. The user has only minimal interaction with the OS

I disagree. In my work-place there's lots of networks and printers such that one must know how to reference them and navigate them.
 

Hnnngh....

[lewko]

Once Were Warriors.

Now are geeks.

"Going Google"

[Anonymous Coward]

Wait for Google to start playing this game. They already promote Google Apps to Businesses and Schools, it's only about time it becomes part of a nationwide IT policy.

How does a Kiwi find a sheep in long grass?

[Anonymous Coward]

Wonderful.

One glass typewriter is like another

[dbIII]

If they can't work out how to use MS Word in five minutes when they are used to openoffice then they really won't be trying.
Most of this stuff is so similar that it doesn't matter. When you get down to mail merges or other stuff just about every company does it differently on the same platform so they'll have to learn it anyway.
True, if they are setting up computer systems they'll be at a disadvantage - you have to know the Microsoft platform to understand that you choose "local printer" when you want to connect directly to a printer on the network (and a thousand other quirks).
By the way, I've heard EXACTLY this argument before about why schools should be full of Apple computers. It really has very little merit. If you are talking about a single semester technical college course it has merit, but for general situations it doesn't.
In a ten year time scale we went from MSDOS to XP in business desktop computing. There is no point at all in directly targeting a specific business desktop environment in the early and middle years of school and not much in the late years.

Re:One glass typewriter is like another

[Anonymous Coward]

The rather unusual gap between Windows XP and Windows Vista seems to have led people to believe that Windows doesn't change much. This is, of course, rubbish, as the huge fuss when Vista was released demonstrates. Vista is substantially different to XP, and 7 is quite different to Vista. For that matter, the difference between Office 2003 and 2007 is pretty big, even if most of the functionality still works the same.

If you are only being taught how to use one specific version of one specific piece of software, you're screwed either way. By the time you actually get a job, you're going to be using something completely different than what you used at school, even if it's just a later version of the same software. If you can't adapt, and can't work things out for yourself, then you haven't really learnt anything.

Re:One glass typewriter is like another

[aussie_a]

Vista is substantially different to XP, and 7 is quite different to Vista.

is 7 substantially different to XP? Because I've found it to, for the most part, be fairly similar to XP. It has a few different quirks, but its clearly the same operating system that's simply been updated.

Also I found there to be almost no difference between 98 and XP. Except for the fact that XP didn't reboot every 5 minutes due to bugs. Now Windows 98 was substantially different to Windows 3.1

Drum roll please...

[__aaclcg7560]

They could run a Beowulf cluster with those extra 44 servers. :P

Re:Drum roll please...

[__aaclcg7560]

CORRECTION: They could run a Beowulf cluster with those 188 extra servers. :p

Now get off my lawn, you grammar/math Nazis!

Sell Data Center Servcies

[ittanmomen]

I suppose what the article means is that there are 4 x 48U racks installed in the server room. It is fiction that each rack could actually loaded with 48 x 1U servers! Potential problems are: cooling, weight, air (fire hazard), power supply.

Most likely actual rack usage looks as follows:

- Rack with 5 Servers
- Rack for Patching and switches
- Rack for phone system / phone patches
- Rack for backup.

If they have remaining capacity, they could rent it out/sell to other community organisations.

Not a matter of cost

[Casandro]

Today it's just sensible to use open source.Not only does it cause far fewer headaches, it also enables children to learn more about the technology.
It's much easier for interested children to expand their knowledge. For example if they want to learn about TCP/IP, they can just use netcat, and then later maybe wireshark.
Others might learn about programming by using shell scripts.

Over time you will have many people in lots of different jobs knowing a bit about computers. This will lead to departments having one or two persons with such experience. The knowledge of those people will then slowly diffuse in the department and cause higher efficiency.

Re:Not a matter of cost

[mjwalshe]

Well if they want to learn about tcp/ip they would need some routers and switches - trouble at least 95% of thease kids arn't going to go into tech jobs the employers will want them to have at least the basics of office so they can use the software that 95% of most jobs use.

Re:Not a matter of cost

[Anonymous Coward]

All the while learning nothing of the software that's used most prevalently in a work environment.

Re:Not a matter of cost

[BlackHawk-666]

What about if they just want to fire up their PC and get their work done? I've always found open source needs more "coercion" to get the work done. In terms of UI, usability some packages are so obscure that even I can't seem to work out how to get them to do what I want - and I've been around since pre-DOS.

Maybe the kids don't give a crap about learning all these command line tools and switches. Maybe they just want to xfer their latest video from their phone to Youtube, synced to whatever music they're listening to now.

May as well only learn how to use a browser, it's the only tech that's likely to stay with us.

Re:Not a matter of cost

[Anonymous Coward]

For example if they want to learn about TCP/IP, they can just use netcat, and then later maybe wireshark.
Others might learn about programming by using shell scripts.

All of which work perfectly fine on Windows. The OS people actually use.

Re:Not a matter of cost

[advocate_one]

hmmm ISTR Wordperfect, Harvard Graphics, DBase III and Lotus 123 being the dominant items once... I even have certificates for them.

Microsoft may currently be the top dog, but they can fall... very easily...

Don't forget, Microsoft cheated to get where they are... and they've been consistently abusing their monopoly position ever since. There's an awful lot of dirt buried in settlement agreements where Microsoft have bought off competition they've illegally killed.

Re:Not a matter of cost

[Casandro]

I don't think you have ever worked with a Windows computer. Those aren't "fire up and go". Typically you are left with a PC with no working mouse because the mouse driver for USB mice somehow failed to install (happened to me several times). Or your computer suddenly starts to show advertisements for porn-sites, or your computer just slows down to a halt gradually.

BTW if you look around in the windows world, you will find that there is even far less "coercion". There's still Windows software out there using the Windows fonts. There's windows software for every era of design guidelines. There's software around with it's own crappy interface ideas. Just for once try to scan 10 pages with the software comming with a typical consumer scanner. Just try to do it and you will see what I mean.

Re:Not a matter of cost

[BlackHawk-666]

I have used Windows since Windows 2.0 both as a user and an admin. I must have installed it over 200 times, and can't say I've ever been left with no mouse due to a lost USB driver. Install anti-virus if you don't want porn ads, and stop visiting warez sites and clicking .exe links.

You're right about it slowly grinding to a halt, that's an issue with OS cruft, and is made worse if you install and un-install a lot of different software. I used to just re-install my OS every year or so under XP to speed it up again, under Vista it doesn't seem to be a problem so far.

Plenty of Windows software has it's own ideas about how it's interface should look and feel but that is by no means unique to Windows. Free software is often a step worse than Windows in this regard, and OS X a step better. Haven't seen any of the old fonts around for ages, but then I mainly only use newly released software that is fit for purpose.

No Idea How To Configure Home Folders Dumb Ass

[Anonymous Coward]

you obviously have no idea how to properly configure home folders to be shared though out multiple users....
you just set up the users to use that folder as that home folder, make sure that all the users belong to the same group, and apply group permissions to the folder.... duh.

Re:No Idea How To Configure Home Folders Dumb Ass

[Tablizer]

you obviously have no idea how to properly configure home folders to be shared though out multiple users....

I wanted to "share" common desktop application icons like browser, word-processor, spreadsheets, etc rather than reinvent the wheel for each user. It wasn't files that were the issue (although an additional common shared folder would be nice, which I haven't found out how to do yet).
         

Watch out for the video

[mcbridematt]

Watch out for the video release of the presentation, including the deputy principal of the school who was there and did a bit of acting :)

Presentation details

I hear the videos will be out in just over a week

The way they do filtering with NuFW is interesting - it can authorize outgoing connections based on the _application_ that is trying to create the connection, by calling back to a PAM module on the client machine. And there are rulesets depending on the logged in user group. Beats forcing everyone to use proxies.

And to clear up, by 'standard server space' they mean 4 x 12RU, they only needed to use one 12RU rack.

Re:Watch out for the video

[Anonymous Coward]

Watch out for the video release of the presentation, including the deputy principal of the school who was there and did a bit of acting :)

If he doesn't do any monkey dancing, I'm not interested.

Re:Watch out for the video

[TheRealSlimShady]

The way they do filtering with NuFW is interesting - it can authorize outgoing connections based on the _application_ that is trying to create the connection, by calling back to a PAM module on the client machine. And there are rulesets depending on the logged in user group. Beats forcing everyone to use proxies.

Microsoft's ISA/TMG/Proxy has been able to do this since version 1...

Naming

[dintech]

Moodle, Mahara, Koha, Ubuntu, Mandriva

Is the weirdology in software naming caused by the lack of available domain names or something? Just asking...

Re:Naming

[Anonymous Coward]

MS has already used Bob.

Re:Naming

[micheas]

Moodle, Mahara, Koha, Ubuntu, Mandriva

Is the weirdology in software naming caused by the lack of available domain names or something? Just asking...

Trademark law.

Try finding a name that is available in 150 countries. The first one that you don't hate is the one to go with.

Re:Naming

[Anonymous Coward]

Just in case you care ...

Two of those, Mahara and Koha, are Maori words (meaning think/thought and gift respectively). Ubuntu is African (meaning "humanity to others"). Moodle stands for Modular Object-Oriented Dynamic Learning Environment. Mandriva comes from merging Connectiva and Mandrakelinux.

A little trite perhaps, but they have reasons.

Re:Naming

[rsevero]

International development leads to names in different languages. Mahara: hawaian. Koha: maori. Ubuntu: bantu.

Re:Naming

[kinko]

"Koha" is a Maori word meaning gift/donation. The Maori are the indigenous people of New Zealand, so it's a pretty appropriate name for a FOSS library catalogue system written in NZ for anyone to use freely :)

PS Slashdot ate my "a macron" character - "Maori" should have a "-" over the "a".

Re:Naming

[Anonymous Coward]

"Maori" should have a "-" over the "a".
Here take this one: ä (... comes close)

Re:Naming

[Anonymous Coward]

I hate the name Moodle. If I knew they were going to name it Moodle, I would have learned to program, pretended to care about open source and joined the Moodle team just to vote against the stupidest name in the world.

Re:Naming

[dintech]

I didn't know Ubuntu was developed by bantu people. I take it all back.

Re:Naming

[Anonymous Coward]

Ok. I bet I need to explain it in details. International development means people with different cultural backgrounds are involved in the name decision making of these projects. Having these different cultural backgrounds there are people with references in other languages than english choosing the project names. These names are as meaningfull to them as "proper" english names probably are to you. I never said nor implied that bantu people developed Ubuntu nor that maori people developed Koha (because I don't know if they have or not), i.e., people with cultural references from these languages are involved in the development and name choosing decision process. I hope I made myself clear enough.

Re:Naming

[jedidiah]

There's nothing really to explain (except to the willfully ignorant).

The founder and patron of the Ubuntu project is a South African.

Not everyone in software is from some American suburb that they've never ventured from.

Re:Naming

[Anonymous Coward]

I hate the name Moodle.

And Google is any better? To me, it sounds like a babbling infant with saliva running down its chin. In an alternate universe, I'd be embarrassed to admit working for a company with such a name. (And how did they get around ripping off Barney Google?)

Re:Naming

[fibonacci8]

Maori

from the Mandarin Chinese for Caturday

48 servers

[CountBrass]

To run a school? What the hell are they, or rather, what the hell is every other NZ school doing that they need 48 servers! 4 to do the work, 20 to handle licensing and the other 24 to handle patch management and anti-virus updates?

Windows has some _really_ big no-nos

[Casandro]

There is one _big_ minefield with Windows, and that is software distribution. How on earth can a non-geek ever find out if a software package he downloads is legit or a piece of malware? This is probably the single biggest worry about amateurs using windows systems. (to some extend the problem is the same with the Mac)

Most Linux distributions solve that by having a package manager. I can safely tell a person to search for software in there and be assured that the chance they download malware is very slim.

As long as Microsoft refuses to address this problem and make all files downloaded instantly executable, I just cannot recommend Windows to the average user.

Re:Windows has some _really_ big no-nos

[Anonymous Coward]

There is one _big_ minefield with Windows, and that is software distribution. How on earth can a non-geek ever find out if a software package he downloads is legit or a piece of malware?

Proactive/on-access AV software does the trick (avg and avast both do this and are free, the later regularly scoring detection rates comparable to the paid-for leaders).

Not downloading warez helps.
Downloading from trusted sites helps too.

None of these option require any kind of geekery, and I don't know about you, but all versions of Windows I've used in the past six years require me to expressly 'okay' the execution of a freshly downloaded binary.

"average user" please. In three short sentences you've demonstrated that you don't know what that constitutes and that your recomendation is worthless.

Re:Windows has some _really_ big no-nos

[timmarhy]

what a load of crap. there's nothing preventing you violating a license on linux either. wine anyone?!

Re:Windows has some _really_ big no-nos

[Jellybob]

The point isn't about licensing, its about knowing whether or not the software you're downloading is going to install a keylogger, or start datamining your home directory.

With the Linux model of having a central software repository for your distribution, you can be fairly safe in knowing that isn't going to happen. If it does happen, they can push a security release to the repository, and fix the problem.

The Windows/Mac OS model of downloading arbitrary executables from the Internet however relies entirely on you trusting the owner of a website not to screw you over. This is dealt with to an extent by virus scanners, but they are a band aid to prevent the worst problems, rather then a solution.

Re:Windows has some _really_ big no-nos

[Fred_A]

what a load of crap. there's nothing preventing you violating a license on linux either. wine anyone?!

Yes please. Red for me.

Re:Windows has some _really_ big no-nos

[Anonymous Coward]

Should we really be telling the average user to install software?

Re:Windows has some _really_ big no-nos

[Tablizer]

How on earth can a non-geek ever find out if a software package he downloads is legit or a piece of malware? This is probably the single biggest worry about amateurs using windows systems.

That's a problem in general, not just for non-geeks. Yes, research on the web about a company helps, but is no guarantee. It's possible and not uncommon to spoof legitimacy by planting shill commentary and corporate-looking websites.

Having a tighter "sandbox" on the OS can limit damage, but if a piece of software requests special access in order to "do it's job", then the question still exists: How do you distinguish real from liar-ware.

It's only partially a technical issue. Trust and social relations will always be a part of it, for we cannot reverse engineer every piece of software we install.
     

No lock-in...

[Bert64]

This is a new school, one that was not previously locked in to any proprietary setup... They were able to start with a clean slate and do things properly.

Incidentally, how big or inefficient is the average school in new zealand if they require 48 servers? Just what exactly would all those servers do?

Re:No lock-in...

[Anonymous Coward]

I have worked with hundreds of NZ schools IT in my career.

I can tell you this:

The average server count is one.

The most physical servers ive seen at some of the larger schools in the country ive worked with (~2500-3000 students) has been about 25

The biggest schools in the country can function with capacity to spare on a couple of HP DL380s and an iSCSI san when managed well.

There are a lot of morons in school IT.

The networks with the happiest users use a Microsoft platform

The networks with the unhappiest users use Novell

The schools with Linux networks BURN CASH on consultants (weather they need to or not, this is what they do). This school is new as such has lots of startup funding. They claim hundreds of thousands of dollars saved in licencing yearly yet none of the windows based schools (even paying for site licencing for things such as Adobe Suite and Sibelius) I've seen spend more than about 15k/year

Posting AC for obvious reasons

Re:No lock-in...

[sensationull]

Mod parent up! I agree fully apart from the 2xDL380s, we use a couple more servers than that for extras like Terminal Services (to run god aweful school managment software - MUSAC) and one for all the internet/email filtering and security. Everything else like email, av control, centralized video library, library software, centralized applications etc are virtualized. Every school that I have encountered using a non-windows/mac system for both clients and servers is filled with unhappy teachers and students with half functional IT that they can't figure out how to use or has other issues that make it more work than it should be. These schools usually with some media savy attention seeker at the helm who usually appear to care far more about their social position than providing a learning environment. Have seen plenty happy with linux server side even though they are stuck using XP because of incompatibilities in the way the preffered supported dist is made.

Re:No lock-in...

[Bert64]

Not having any experience with NZ schools, but based on several schools within Europe (as well as numerous other non school organizations of various sizes)...

Windows based networks typically have unhappy users and unhappy overworked IT staff.

What you do get, a users who believe that windows problems are unavoidable... With Novell they simply blame Novell, even if the same issues would have occurred on windows or anything else.

Users have simply become too accustomed to windows problems that they're willing to put up with them now. Any other issues (and other platforms typically have less but different issues) are seen as bad because they're different.

My experience with Novell in a school environment, is that is is far more reliable than any of the MS offerings... The Novell setups i've seen in the past few years have been very stable, the only problems being when they don't have any staff who know Novell.

Gay Ninjas

[Anonymous Coward]

Ever met a gay ninja?

here's a solution for everyone

[md65536]

Windows 8 to Feature Fully Virtual Monopoly

"We already have some schools switching to other operating systems. This new version of Windows will allow them to do that while still claiming to be 'Windows only.' "

fully sarcastic blog entry here.

Cooling and Gaming

[Anonymous Coward]

It's pretty obvious what they need all those servers for. Dedicated Counter-Strike servers, so the students can play. There's even enough of them to let their friends from other schools join in and envy them.

If the racks are really supposed to be full of servers, did they plan for appropriate cooling, too?

It *DOES* matter to them

[Damnshock]

They get paid, that's right.

They are not being used!!! That's the first step for people to end using Microsoft products!

Have we not discussed that one of the main reason for the Microsft monopoly is that people don't know anything else?

One Word

[Anonymous Coward]

KMS

Hurrr Durrr

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like both you and your "kid" are fucking retards.

I hope you both die in a fire.

Anglosphere

[Anonymous Coward]

In the Anglosphere, there is a mandate to use only Microsoft software.and not consider alternatives.

Re:192 Server Capacity? s/42/48 in above post...

[MrMr]

How many cm is that?

Rubbish!

[sensationull]

Rubbish I work in a NZ school as an IT admin and schools have to sign up each three years (was each year). Only these schools are included in the deal and they have to activly sign up to it. This is the usual Slashdot FUD, if they don't sign up then the school is not included in the agreement and the government pays nothing. There are simmilar deals as stated above with Apple and even at one point a major linux distribution/support provider. As far as I can tell this deal is no longer open to new schools but is still maintained for those that did sign up.

Re:Rubbish!

[ozmanjusri]

Rubbish I work in a NZ school as an IT admin

Did you learn your IT skills in the same school that taught you spelling and grammar?

Re:Rubbish!

[sensationull]

Ah, yes, and of course the grammer and spelling of my speedy typing invalidated my point completely. Just what I would expect from an Australian.

Re:Rubbish!

[ozmanjusri]

Just what I would expect from an Australian.

A sense of humour?

I thought you Kiwis had those too. I guess you're feeling a bit sheepish about the spelling errors...

Re:Rubbish!

[Kryptonut]

Ah yes....the classic kiwi sheep shagger joke. Yes, in NZ we're all given a sheep at the age of 16, we shag it's brains out for the next few years, then they're butchered and the meat is exported to Australia. Just think about that next time the gravy's dribbling down your chin ;)

Re:Rubbish!

[Flere Imsaho]

Since we're trading archetypical insults...

That's a low blow, or as we like to say over here, a bit of an underarm bowl.

Re:Rubbish!

[ozmanjusri]

Yes, in NZ we're all given a sheep at the age of 16, we shag it's brains out for the next few years, then they're butchered and the meat is exported to Australia.

Yeah we know.

Your chicks tell us stuff like that when they come over here for a decent root. We don't eat the stuff - we just repackage it and sell it off to the poms.

Just think about that next time the gravy's dribbling down your chin

That 'aint gravy. It's your sister's pussy juice.

Re:Rubbish!

[Falconhell]

Hey, I am an Aus too, and I spent 2 weeks around Kiwis at the gliding nationals recently and didnt mention sheep once!

I should get a medal for such forbearance!

For the US readers, the kiwis are bitter about Australians because they never win against us in cricket.

Re:Rubbish!

[Anonymous Coward]

grammar!!! ;)

Citrix? Oracle (tells the future???)

[Anonymous Coward]

Citrix? Oracle (tells the future???)? Excel? Quake? Bing?...

Re:Citrix? Oracle (tells the future???)

[Anonymous Coward]

Here are some strange ones that made me laugh.... Microsoft,Microsoft Security,Microsoft Trusted Computing,Microsoft Innovation.

Er, one server per student ratio?!?

[geekmux]

"Interestingly, the school will move into new purpose-built premises this year, which include a dedicated server room designed based on standard New Zealand school requirements, including four racks each capable of holding 48 servers for its main systems. The main infrastructure at Albany Senior High only requires four servers, suggesting an almost 50-fold saving on hardware requirements."

What in the hell is a single High School running that even under normal Bill-Ware requires four racks worth of server hardware for less than 250 students? Are you fucking kidding me?

And yeah, I know they might lay in four racks for "growth" and not fill them right away, but even seeing into the future, I can't imagine why they would EVER require that much horsepower for one school when you can squeeze 16 cores, 4TB of storage, and 100GB of RAM into 2U these days. Anybody there ever heard of VMWare? Props to them for proving it can be done on far less hardware, but the other schools must be spending a fortune on electricity alone...

Re:Er, one server per student ratio?!?

[Anonymous Coward]

My old school (in the UK) seemed to love throwing money away in stupidly redundant hardware. They had three full racks for a school of 1500. In one of the computer rooms they had a glass fronted cabinet with some nice switches in it. If you took a look you would see that 1/3 of the switches were being used (had stuff plugged in). The school had a UPS which somehow, insanely, wasn't configured to shut down the servers cleanly when it was running out of power. So we came in one day to find the network was dead because the servers were rebuilding a corrupted raid array from the unclean shutdown during the night. I was told this by an IT technician who seemed to think this was standard if you have a powercut that lasts more than 40 minutes.

At least they did seem to be learning, they originally had RM computers which are terribly designed. They are space saving ones so the cpu etc. were placed behind the monitor so there is no tower. Over the course of two years they ended up replacing about 1/3 of them due to overheating. The next set of computers were Dell towers which were much faster (2 minutes to about 20 seconds log in time) and barely needed any maintenance other than the odd reimaging when the hard drives got corrupted.

The software was poorly designed, teachers laptops seemed to sync with the servers every morning when they connected to the network which blocked login so it would be 5-10 minutes for a teacher to get their laptop working. The OS which was meant to be locked down for students had about as many holes in it as a swiss cheese. I think I was aware of about 5 serious unpatched exploits by the time I left, leading to full internet access and full admin privileges for the local machine. I never actually used any of the exploits myself, nor did I directly create any, although I did find a bug which was blatantly exploitable and was completely ignored by the admins.

Re:Er, one server per student ratio?!?

[kenh]

Geekmux, here in the US, it is almost unheard of for the IT group to get MORE space in a school after it is built. Over-specifying four racks instead of one or two allows you to build up a useful room size, ensures appropriate cooling, power, etc.

Capacity does not equal configuration.

Re:Er, one server per student ratio?!?

[geekmux]

Geekmux, here in the US, it is almost unheard of for the IT group to get MORE space in a school after it is built. Over-specifying four racks instead of one or two allows you to build up a useful room size, ensures appropriate cooling, power, etc.

Capacity does not equal configuration.

Placing empty racks on a floorplan is a rather wasteful idea to justify a larger room. Instead, put USEFUL items on the floorplan to increase space, like a desk or cubes for IT. With smart-cooling racks, you don't even really need to justify some insane cooling solution these days either.

And I'm sorry, I still believe with the prevalence of wifi networks instead of racks full of switches, virtual servers, and hardware pretty much following Moores Law for the last 30 years, you really can't justify four racks for even a 500-student campus, let alone 250.

Space between servers in rack = bad practice

[Anonymous Coward]

Servers have not had top vents for years. The vent in the front & out the back. The expectation is that there is a cold isle in the front, and either a hot isle in the back, or that the hot air is vented out the top from the back to some sort of return.

The hardware team set up some of my server racks with space between the servers & PDU's racked in the back: When one of the three AC units died, we found that the servers at the bottom were venting into the back, then up to one of the PDU's - where the air was then circulating through a gap to the front & into the top two servers. Unsuprisingly, they melted. If we did not have 195% capacity on that VMware cluster, they would have taken 20 virtualized machines with them.

Servers should be racked together: Starting from the bottom, in the correct U's & should fit flush. Has anyone even seen an odd sized server from a major vendor in years?

DO NOT RACK WITH SPACES.

Re:Space between servers in rack = bad practice

[dbIII]

The expectation is that there is a cold isle in the front,

That would be the South Island.

and either a hot isle in the back,

That would be Australia.

or that the hot air is vented out the top

Mt Tongariro vents a bit of hot air out the top in the north isle.


Jokes aside the poster above is spot on - servers hate it when they have hot air from another as their incoming air.

A great use for the spare servers?

[Lost Penguin]

Load up the unused servers with ESX and rent VMs to the other schools (running Microsoft) that need more that 50 servers.

Because it's cheaper.

[Anonymous Coward]

Because it's cheaper. They've saved money in power use, in configuration and in staff time.

That is why they should use Linux.

There's also the fact that if they Use Linux at school, they'll either

a) be able to use the same product at home without piracy

or

b) have MS stuff at home bought by their parents and will learn more than one application AND how to make them interoperate (by "saving as...").

Either case is fine. And if businesses use something other than what they used at work, that's no different, so they've still "merely" saved money.

anonymous bullshit

[viralMeme]

"I have worked with hundreds of NZ schools IT in my career"

In what capacity, what are the names of these schools.

The schools with Linux networks BURN CASH on consultants .."

Absolute rubbish, once a Linux server is installed and configured, (and baring hardware failure)it just runs. Perhaps you should have consulted the people at Albany Senior High School.

The tight time frame -- two weeks for evaluation, one week for design and two weeks for implementation -- didn't create too much disruption, Brennan said. "Although everything wasn't as polished as it could have been, when the school opened all of the core functionality was there. And it's been running for a year with no significant intervention. It hasn't really been touched in any fundamental way since then "

Where do you get your 'BURN CASH on consultants' from. Come again .. perhaps you aren't very good at your job.

"This school is new as such has lots of startup funding .."

Where does it say they had lots of startup funding and running for a year is hardly new.

"Posting AC for obvious reasons"

Because you're talking total bullshit ..

Re:anonymous bullshit

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly. As if there are even hundreds of schools in NZ to work with.

My guess is the parent has never even been to NZ.

No creativity allowed?

[malevolentjelly]

So, this school uses 100% open source software? I take it this particular school will not be producing any young graphical artists, filmmakers, or music producers, then?

For most tasks students complete on school computers, I would prefer to deploy Ubuntu Desktops instead of overhauled Windows XP workstations which need to be manually pampered into health. If everyone is using open office, all documents produced at the school will look god-awful, but this will be a grand equalizer between students, demonstrating to them that there is no place for presentation in academic content.

So, this will be fine for students in most subjects... but I have to feel bad for anyone with creative or artistic leanings. Linux is an engineer's world. While young programmers will be able "express themselves" with terrible unix code and tools, artists will be left learning with archaic and useless tools that have no bearing to professional software where they could be more productive on Macs or even Windows machines. They may not suffer from "vendor lock-in", but they will be subject to "industry lock-out". Ubuntu systems are really only pragmatic in some cases.

No "almost 50-fold saving on hardware"

[kenh]

The main infrastructure at Albany Senior High only requires four servers, suggesting an almost 50-fold saving on hardware requirements.

No, it doesn't.

Merely by specifying four 42U racks doesn't mean they expect/assume the school will stuff each with 42 1U servers (some might be taller/use more Us), and it would be easier to build up the datacenter with racks now than straddle some random server purchase down the line with the need to buy a new server rack, UPSs capacity, KVM support,etc.

My local school district has 6x 42U racks in the data center, and it allows us tremendous flexibility in installing hardware (this is a test rack, not on generator power, these two are production servers, this rack is the SAN, another for web and other DMZ servers and one for future growth).

Each school has a 42U rack, but with only one or two local servers installed (one Windows, one OS X server), a UPS, switch or two, and fiber termination hardware with lots of room for future growth, if needed. We didn't need 42U, but the minimal cost savings didn't justify imposing limits on future growth...

Re:Windows validation..

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly. It would be nice to have access to a complete list of possible files which are part of
the MS OS, their versions/dates and cryptographic checksums. This would make checking
if a system was infected (and fixing it) simple. No guessing...

Oxymoron?

[drainbramage]

"competent Windows admins".

Opened in 2009, moving in 2010

[Leuf]

If they are moving a high school one year after opening it something tells me a few MS licenses is the least of this school district's financial issues.

Shuttleworth is from Africa. Fuckwit.

[Anonymous Coward]

Shuttleworth is from Africa. Fuckwit.

Re:Shuttleworth is from Africa. Fuckwit.

[dintech]

And what does that have to with the target audience? Fuckwit.

Ugh.

[mikkelm]

".. based on standard New Zealand school requirements, including four racks each capable of holding 48 servers for its main systems. The main infrastructure at Albany Senior High only requires four servers, suggesting an almost 50-fold saving on hardware requirements."

It suggests nothing of the sort. That's an intensely dishonest statement.

The Deputy Principal's blog

[Anonymous Coward]

http://theopensourceschool.blogspot.com/

Re:Not There Yet (correction)

[Tablizer]

Correction: I meant "kids' computer" (plural). That's why I want shared/common desktop icons.

US to NZ

[Anonymous Coward]

You Kiwis are so funny - acting all grown up! You'll install Linux when we tell you. Now back to Windows.
And keep the money coming!

The US

50 fold improvement

[chentiangemalc]

230 pupil school and 50 fold improvement in servers being used? I'd like to see how they came up with that. Anyone designing a Windows environment with 48 servers for 230 users must be insane. ???