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Mozilla Puts Tiger Out To Pasture

Barence writes "Mozilla is ready to exorcise support for Mac OS X 10.4 from Firefox's development code, closing the door on Apple's aging OS. The foundation stopped supporting 10.4, codenamed Tiger, in September 2009, but, according to Josh Aas, a Mozilla platform engineer, 'we left much of the code required to support that platform in the tree in case we wanted to reverse that decision." We had come to a point where we need to make a final decision and either restore 10.4 support or remove this (large) amount of 10.4 specific code,' he notes on the Mozilla developer planning forum."

440 comments

  1. Nooo ! by psergiu · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Please no !

    There are a lot of old G3 macs around that can run only Tiger and are perfect as a browsing machine (if you don't want to watch flash videos).

    --
    1% APY, No fees, Online Bank https://captl1.co/2uIErYq Don't let your $$$ sit in a no-interest acct.
    1. Re:Nooo ! by Captain+Splendid · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Meh. As someone with a 10.4 and a 10.5 machine, good idea. 10.4 needs to be drowned in a well.

      --
      Linux, you magnificent bastard, I read the fucking manual!
    2. Re:Nooo ! by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 4, Interesting

      More to the point, what the hell gigantic change could Apple have possibly made to 10.5 to make 10.4 support some kind of giant anchor weighing everything down? Seriously?

      Either:
      1) Someone's exaggerating and the 10.4 code is actually very small, or
      2) That's a gigantic WTF from Apple and they should be called on it.

      Normally I'd get pissy over removing support for something that's not really that old, but I guess Mac users are used to that and don't care... so... bully for Mozilla.

    3. Re:Nooo ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So? No one is taking the already released versions away from you.

    4. Re:Nooo ! by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      No they aren't but using a browser that is no longer getting security updates doesn't seem like a very good idea to me.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    5. Re:Nooo ! by mini+me · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Leopard added a slew of new libraries and API improvements. Presumably Mozilla, up until Leopard, were implementing those features internally. Moving forward, Mozilla can now rely on Apple to do the work in these areas except when they want to run on earlier versions of OS X (i.e. Tiger).

      The question here is, should Mozilla continue to duplicate the efforts of Apple to provide compatibility with people running older systems?

    6. Re:Nooo ! by palegray.net · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm a huge Mac fan, but you could always just install Linux on that G3 to give it a new lease on life, with the added benefit of more modern software.

    7. Re:Nooo ! by bheer · · Score: 4, Informative

      Here's a taste of the changes between Tiger and Leopard/Snow Leopard. Even though Leopard->Snow Leopard was (relatively) incremental stabilization and refinement, remember that Leopard was a *big* upgrade.

      Adding 10.4 support back to mozilla-central would mean switching back to ATSUI from Core Text, switching back to gcc-4.0 from gcc-4.2, and doing a bit of porting work for code that has been added to the tree since we dropped support for 10.4. Other areas where 10.4 support consumes our time, makes our code more complex or error-prone, and/or limits our capabilities include complex text input (IME), out-of-process plugins, printing, native menus, and Core Animation. Furthermore, Apple's upcoming JavaPlugin2 will not support Mac OS X 10.4.

    8. Re:Nooo ! by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The question here is, should Mozilla continue to duplicate the efforts of Apple to provide compatibility with people running older systems?

      The answer is: Mozilla should have a very clear policy about backwards compatibility and follow it to the letter. Correct me if I'm wrong, but they don't currently have that.

      Barring that, the answer should be: Until Apple actively does something to break the older "deprecated" code in Firefox, they should support older OSes. From another reply, it sounds like a new version of the Java plug-in Apple is releasing will meet this criteria. Also, being Apple, this is going to happen every 3 years anyway.

      Here's what should *not* determine when to end support: "I'm a programmer and working with this old API is soooo painful and my compiles take a few seconds longer! Whine!"

      Or in other words, support decisions should *never* be made just based on developer preferences. The purpose of writing software is to serve your users. Either you're a professional developer and you deal with the slightly older APIs/compilers to serve your users, or you're a hack.

    9. Re:Nooo ! by psergiu · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Usually all those old 10.4 running macs are Grandma's and Auntie's browsing machines. Switching those machines to Linux is not advised unless you want to spend the next 3 months re-training their users.

      --
      1% APY, No fees, Online Bank https://captl1.co/2uIErYq Don't let your $$$ sit in a no-interest acct.
    10. Re:Nooo ! by smash · · Score: 1, Interesting
      Objective C 2.0 with garbage collection for one... accelerated Quartz for another...

      Tiger is pretty old - 2005 vintage. 5 years old in hardware terms is ancient. If you're still on a PowerPC macintosh, and are expecting continued hardware support, its time to wake up and smell the roses - a mac mini will be much faster than your current box.

      If you're on an intel mac, the upgrade is cheap and worth it.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    11. Re:Nooo ! by bob5972 · · Score: 1

      You can still install an old version of Firefox if you're desperate.

    12. Re:Nooo ! by smash · · Score: 2, Informative
      More modern software.... Except for... you know... the GUI, the object orientation, the plug and play, display PDF, etc. Basically everything that makes the mac nicer to use than some shitbox clone running ubuntu.

      Don't get me wrong, I'm a free unix fan, but if you've got OS X, as far as usability and "getting shit done" goes, linux or any of the other Free unices is a step backwards.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    13. Re:Nooo ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not just G3s, but there are low end G4s that you can't update to Leopard.

      But when I whined about that I was modded a Troll.

      You whine about it and get modded Insightful? WTF?

      Flash used to run fine on my G4 MDD and Mini, but I guess the players being pushed out now must be Intel-only, and in emulation mode they're crap, so I guess I'll have to retire those too before too much longer.

    14. Re:Nooo ! by Reapman · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I would guess that both you and I are not qualified enough to answer the reason as to why, however I'm rather confident the reason wasn't because it added "a few seconds" of compile time. Supporting legacy systems isn't just a matter of how long it takes code to compile, there's issues with maintainability, as well as speed and performance. Which DOES affect the end user.

      I imagine that the userbase that uses Firefox with 10.4 is small enough, and the issues with supporting it big enough, that it makes sense to drop support.

      Besides, isn't BLOAT one of the biggest complaints with Firefox on here? Worst case if 10.4 support is really that huge of an issue someone will fork it.

    15. Re:Nooo ! by oscartheduck · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's an open source project. The old saw about supporting the code yourself if you don't like what's happening is entirely applicable here. The folks at Mozilla have decided to spend their money elsewhere. You can stand on the shoulders of their last release if you'd like to.

      --
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    16. Re:Nooo ! by Dog-Cow · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Is Tiger still getting updates?

    17. Re:Nooo ! by Beowulf878 · · Score: 1

      Debian also runs nicely on them - perhaps not ideal for you but an option.

    18. Re:Nooo ! by tepples · · Score: 1

      No they aren't but using a browser that is no longer getting security updates doesn't seem like a very good idea to me.

      Using a browser on an operating system that is no longer getting security updates doesn't seem like a very good idea to me. That's why Mozilla felt justified in dropping support for Windows 98 and Windows ME when it did. When does Apple plan to stop issuing security updates for 10.4?

    19. Re:Nooo ! by sznupi · · Score: 1

      So...just use a browser that still gets maintained?

      Opera probably will be for quite some time, it's current version officialy supports 10.3

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    20. Re:Nooo ! by noidentity · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That's the biggest thing that's pissed me off about Mac OS X releases: you had to use a newer version of GCC, but then your programs simply would not run on older versions of the OS, even if you used the same source code. It'd just quit immediately without any message to the user.

    21. Re:Nooo ! by cayenne8 · · Score: 1

      Well, that and I had a hell of a time finding an older version...I did, but they don't make it easy and clear where to go for older versions.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    22. Re:Nooo ! by tepples · · Score: 1

      Except for... you know... the GUI, the object orientation

      KDE Plasma Desktop is based on Qt, an object-oriented toolkit. GNOME (formerly GNU Network Object Model Environment) is based on GTK+, which is object-oriented even though written in C. If this isn't what you meant, could you be more specific?

      the plug and play

      It depends on whether you have bleeding-edge hardware (more likely to include a driver CD for the big two desktop operating systems) or slightly older hardware (more likely to be in Linux driver repositories). I haven't had much of a problem getting Ubuntu to autodetect hardware, except for a few manufacturers that refuse to deal with the free software community (e.g. some Microtek flatbed scanners), but a lot of manufacturers skip Mac too.

      display PDF

      What PDF files does Evince have trouble with?

    23. Re:Nooo ! by svtdragon · · Score: 1

      Or you could put a skin on it and tell them it's the latest and greatest new Apple OS that they haven't heard of yet.

      If it's just a browsing machine, what more is a granny going to do with it? The browsing experience for those users consists of "find the icon, double-click, browse" which works on *any* OS. Furthermore, if they're using firefox on a mac, aren't they savvy enough to have installed it over Safari? Or if that was you, the technical guy, who did it for them, perhaps some setup time ought to be arranged between you and the machine to make the experience similar to what they're leaving behind.

      Ubuntu comes with solitaire and firefox. That's all that granny's machine needs. Plus, you as a tech support guy can just install an SSH server, set up some port forwarding on the router, and remote admin anything that they have issues with.

      In any case, the point is, these users don't dig far enough into the system to notice a difference. You can make it look nearly identical with the right theming and behave nearly identically with some minimal configuration changes. That kind of up-front investment, to me, is time well spent to give them an OS that's going to run well for years into the future without worrying about support being cut off.

    24. Re:Nooo ! by PenisLands · · Score: 1

      Don't worry, you can always install Debian for PPC.

    25. Re:Nooo ! by smash · · Score: 1
      KDE may be plasma based on QT with an OO toolkit, but its broken and does not work properly.

      As far as display PDF goes... look it up. I'm not talking about the ability to display PDFs. I'm talking about device independent rendering that looks the same on any device.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    26. Re:Nooo ! by MrHanky · · Score: 1

      So what kind of "object orientation" and "plug and play" does the Mac have that Linux doesn't?

    27. Re:Nooo ! by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Supporting legacy systems isn't just a matter of how long it takes code to compile, there's issues with maintainability,

      Well, a new API could make the codebase easier to maintain, but that doesn't affect the end-user. (Unless you're admitting that the codebase was impossibly-difficult to maintain before the new API came out.)

      as well as speed and performance.

      I concede this, but I doubt it's significant. (Again: unless the code was a complete mess before.) Nothing 10.4 did made the user's hardware any faster, and there's no reason to believe that the libraries Apple added are faster than the ones Mozilla was using before. (They might be, but you can't just *assume* they are.)

      I imagine that the userbase that uses Firefox with 10.4 is small enough, and the issues with supporting it big enough, that it makes sense to drop support.

      True. The reason I brought up the developer line is that I've seen a lot of open source projects, especially on Mac, drop old technologies like a hot-potato time and time again. There are tons of apps I stopped getting updates to, apparently punishment for the heinous crime of owning a G5 computer a full 6 months after Apple switched to x86.

      Let's face it, if your development staff is:
      1) Volunteer
      2) Really, really excited about technology
      They're not going to want to use an "old" API or IDE, even if it's only 3 years old. They're not going to want to get their PPC computer out of the closet to QA. (Assuming they even QA in the first place.)

      Hell, the Mac software community used to point out "Cocoa!!" as a feature. And got pissy with me when I told them that Cocoa isn't a feature, it's an implementation detail and your users don't give a flying crap.

      If left to their own devices, the *only* OS support you'd offer is "whatever the very latest is, until the next one comes out." That's why support needs to be a managerial decision, and why it needs to be data-backed. It's also something that's likely to slide unless there's enforcement.

      Maybe Mozilla's done the user research and they know that they're not dropping many users, but just from reading the comments in this Slashdot thread, I think they may be dropping more users than they realize.

    28. Re:Nooo ! by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      No I don't agree.
      As a lot of people have said these older Macs are most likely being used for simple web surfing.
      Gnome and KDE are both very usable GUIs, Nothing too odd or hard about clicking on an icon or picking a program from a menu.
      Object Orientation? I don't see that much difference between OS X and any other OS from a users point of view with Object orientation. Plug and Play? on an older G3 Mac? Probably not a lot better than on Linux., DIspaly PDF? for websurfing and Email????

      I have XP, 7 and Linux at home and I have started to work with OS X at my office for development.
      OS X has some "Nice" features but it isn't that much better then the other OSs I have worked on. It is very well thought out and has some nice touches but really it is just an OS with a GUI.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    29. Re:Nooo ! by smash · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You can compile for older operating systems in xcode by toggling a switch. Hopefully the GCC bullshit will be laid to rest when CLANG is integrated into 10.7 or whatever.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    30. Re:Nooo ! by smash · · Score: 1

      OK, drag a picture out of Mozilla and into and tell me what happens.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    31. Re:Nooo ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Safari on Tiger is not supported by eBay and a few other sites these days.

    32. Re:Nooo ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      They should support Windows 98.

      IMO.

    33. Re:Nooo ! by smash · · Score: 1

      into [random other app], on linux i meant (wrong brackets = no text... sigh)

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    34. Re:Nooo ! by Draek · · Score: 1

      The purpose of writing software is to serve your users.

      But the process of writing software doesn't happen without developers. And the messier and kludgier a codebase is, the harder it is to get devs to work on it.

      Sorry, but if you want devs to support Apple OSes for a longer time, you should ask Apple to provide a more stable platform rather than change it every year and a half just because they can.

      --
      No problem is insoluble in all conceivable circumstances.
    35. Re:Nooo ! by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 2

      But the process of writing software doesn't happen without developers. And the messier and kludgier a codebase is, the harder it is to get devs to work on it.

      Yah, I get that.

      What I'm really trying to do is appeal to their professionalism and maybe get open source developers to take a little bit more pride in their work. Probably not going to work in a community that doesn't understand the difference between "development" and "coding," but I'll try anyway.

      If nothing else, I still have a G5 with 10.4 on it myself. (Admittedly, I haven't turned it on in awhile.)

    36. Re:Nooo ! by Digital+Pizza · · Score: 1

      Please, PLEASE someone mod the parent's comment up. I've seen this sort of thing so many times in the open source community. Remember all the different platforms Linux USED to run on, for example, and how that was a pretty big deal? Sparc32 anyone?

      A LOT of people still run 10.4. Quite a few even run 10.3 (though I admit that's pushing things a bit these days). If Mozilla can be ported to Windows, OSX (any version), Linux, Solaris, IRIX (at least it USED to exist), etc, then why the hell can't it continue to be ported to 10.4, even if (like a lot of other OSX software I've seen these days) it needs to be a separate version?

      BTW, I also felt this way when I saw that the OSX port of Chrome was Intel-only - seriously, it would have killed Google to have build it as as Universal Binary?

      --
      We apologize for the inconvenience.
    37. Re:Nooo ! by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      > More modern software.... Except for... you know... the GUI, the object orientation,
      > the plug and play, display PDF, etc. Basically everything that makes the mac nicer
      > to use than some shitbox clone running ubuntu.
      >
      > Don't get me wrong, I'm a free unix fan, but if you've got OS X, as far as usability
      > and "getting shit done" goes, linux or any of the other Free unices is a step backwards. ...all empty rhetoric.

      This all boils down to stuff that is either entirely irrelevant (like display PDF) or stuff
      that Mac infact does not do any better than anyone else (plug & play) to stuff where there
      are some notable flaws in how Macs do things (GUI).

      Granny is going to be equally at home on any OS. This is especially true if she's just
      using the machine as a web terminal. The fact that her machine is only a web terminal
      pretty handily demonstrates that she's not exploiting the full alleged potential of a Mac.

      She's probably doing to be just as meek doing anything except web browsing on ANY OS.

      So the "our stuff is easier" song and dance really doesn't count for much.

      The real question is whether or not her machine will end up part of some bot-net.

      This is the primary value that a Mac has over Windows.

      Compared to Linux, it has no relative advantage.

      Pre-install everything and limit yourself to a very small portion of what's available and you can even make a Dell look good (minus the botnet part).

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    38. Re:Nooo ! by Pascal+Sartoretti · · Score: 1

      There are a lot of old G3 macs around that can run only Tiger and are perfect as a browsing machine (if you don't want to watch flash videos).

      Ubuntu (or KUbuntu for less powerful machines) is a better solution for pure browsing machines.

    39. Re:Nooo ! by Enahs · · Score: 1

      Yes.

      --
      Stating on Slashdot that I like cheese since 1997.
    40. Re:Nooo ! by smash · · Score: 4, Informative

      Usage stats for mozilla 3.6 show approximately 12% of mac users running 10.4.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    41. Re:Nooo ! by Duradin · · Score: 1

      "Or you could put a skin on it and tell them it's the latest and greatest new Apple OS that they haven't heard of yet."

      This is why it has yet to be the year of the Linux desktop. UI (User Interaction) isn't just how it looks, it is also how it acts. Just slapping an OS X looking skin on Linux does not make it as usable as OS X for someone who is used to OS X. Granny would probably be calling you up to tell you she doesn't like this new "Apple" and wants her old Apple back.

    42. Re:Nooo ! by tuffy · · Score: 1

      Amusingly, I just installed Ubuntu on a brand new Mac Mini a couple of days ago because I wanted a small, quiet box to work on.

      As always, people's definitions of what's required to "get shit done" may vary.

      --

      Ita erat quando hic adveni.

    43. Re:Nooo ! by brackishboy · · Score: 1

      The cut-offs for G4 Macs are processor speed and RAM- 867mHz and 512mb to be precise. This would write-off anything below the fastest single-processor 2001 Quicksilver Power Mac, including its dual processor 800mHz sibling- the installer doesn't care that the machine is technically more powerful, it only goes on CPU speed. The RAM thing is easy enough to solve, but the CPU is a more expensive and frustrating issue, particularly if you're just scraping the minimum requirements.

      There are, however, workarounds. I have the aforementioned dual-cpu G4, and found the 'easiest' way to do it was to tinker with the open firmware so that it reports the cpu speed to the installer as faster than it is. I can confirm that Leopard runs as well as Tiger did on that machine with 768mb of RAM. Alternatively you could install Leopard using a more powerful machine and swap the disks around when you're done, but who can be bothered with that? :)

    44. Re:Nooo ! by mini+me · · Score: 1

      Hell, the Mac software community used to point out "Cocoa!!" as a feature

      Speaking as a user, Cocoa most certainly is a feature. Have you ever tried to use an app written using another framework? They never behave quite right and they typically do not take advantage of the system wide features such as spell checking and dictionaries. Not even Apple's own non-Cocoa apps get it right.

      The Mac experience is built around the idea of consistency. Apps that are written using anything other than Cocoa do stand out like a sore thumb on the Mac platform. As such, it is quite important to the end user that developers use Cocoa whenever possible.

    45. Re:Nooo ! by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 1

      Adding 10.4 support back to mozilla-central would mean switching back to ATSUI from Core Text...

      Wait they're using Core Text and thy still can't get the native spell checker and grammar checker working? I assumed they were bypassing Core Text and that explained it. Now I don't have any idea how they could have broken text handling so badly.

    46. Re:Nooo ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here's what should *not* determine when to end support: "I'm a programmer and working with this old API is soooo painful and my compiles take a few seconds longer! Whine!"

      Call us back when you've had to write reams of code to put backward-compatibility hacks into your programs just to support an already-tiny, ever-decreasing, perpetually-complaining, and ultimately unpleaseable audience of people who refuse to upgrade their systems. We'll see how relative "whine" is when you're the one writing the code.

    47. Re:Nooo ! by gnud · · Score: 2, Informative

      Newer Firefox will probably still work on Linux on G4, or in X11 on OSX 10.4. Supporting different hardware platforms and different software platforms is not the same thing.

      Also, Google couldn't easily make a universal binary of Chrome, because the javascript engine is x86-specific.

    48. Re:Nooo ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't bother arguing with smash. He's a long-time troll and raving Apple fanatic. When he starts foaming at the mouth like this, it's best to just ignore him. Let him lisp and flail his limp wrists for a while, and eventually he'll go away.

    49. Re:Nooo ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No they aren't, unless you are talking about iTunes where not offering an update might affect the customer's ability to buy things from Apple.

      The last security update for 10.4 was in September 2009. Since then there have been two security updates for 10.5 and 10.6 and NONE for 10.4.

    50. Re:Nooo ! by mini+me · · Score: 2

      Apple does provide a reasonably stable platform. All of the older APIs will continue to work for many years to come. Firefox has chosen to start using the newer and more powerful APIs which are not available on older systems.

    51. Re:Nooo ! by TJamieson · · Score: 1

      Ugh, I didn't realize they were stuck with ATSUI on 10.4. That's just nasty; ATSUI has been around since 9.x/10.0.x and definitely was showing its age by 10.4. I can imagine the sorts of IME problems they have too, I remember several cases where 10.5 was much more well-behaved for IME and Unicode support in general than 10.4.

      --
      For the last time, PIN Number and ATM Machine are redundancies!
    52. Re:Nooo ! by Mister+Whirly · · Score: 1

      The real question is whether or not her machine will end up part of some bot-net. This is the primary value that a Mac has over Windows.

      So you set up a cheap Windows box, install sandboxie, and run the browser in a sandbox environment. Turn the firewall on, install some AV software, and bot-net problem solved. Honestly, I have locked down a few Windows boxes for some really technologically challenged people in the past. If you know what you are doing, you can make any OS a lot more secure than the default. It isn't a question of which OS you chose to run, it is a question of how much you secure it. Any OS can be more or less secure than any other OS depending on how you configure it.

      --
      "But this one goes to 11!"
    53. Re:Nooo ! by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Speaking as a user, Cocoa most certainly is a feature.

      If you're an end-user and you know what Cocoa *is*, that means Apple screwed up somewhere. What framework an application uses is an implementation detail.

      The Windows world doesn't advertise an app as being ".net!" because it doesn't freakin' matter... .net apps are the same as Win32 apps. The only reason there's a difference in OS X is because Apple has always treated Carbon as a second-class citizen, since they just didn't give a crap about UI anymore.

      The Mac experience is built around the idea of consistency.

      Dude.

      You're talking to a Mac Classic user. Back then, yes, consistency mattered. Now? Now there's no consistency. None. Nada.

      OS X took that and flushed it down the crapper, from when they decided to ship both chrome and aqua windows.

      Windows 7 is significantly more consistent, UI-wise, than newer versions of OS X. If consistency is something you care about, you should be using Windows. There was a time when Apple was the only good place to go for us rare users that valued usability, but that time is long-passed. Mac has gone downhill while everybody else is racing upwards, and there's no real noticeable difference anymore.

    54. Re:Nooo ! by MrHanky · · Score: 2, Informative

      That's got nothing whatsoever to do with "plug and play" or "object orientation", unless you use your own special ad hoc definition -- which was what I suspected, and the reason why I asked: to show that you don't know what you're talking about.

      To further show that you don't know what you're talking about, I'm going to drag a picture from Firefox into the Gimp (Gimp opens the image) and OpenOffice Writer (Writer opens the image), into Google Chrome (Chrome opens the image), into vim in editing mode (it pastes the link to the image). Anything else you want me to drag & drop? How about an mp3 from Amarok's playlist into Firefox (Firefox plays a song!).

      QED: you're full of shit.

    55. Re:Nooo ! by palegray.net · · Score: 1

      I'm posting this from an iMac and my MacBook Pro is sitting next to me. While I love Macs, you need to recognize that there will come a point where older operating systems just aren't supported anymore. The GP specifically stated that his older Mac makes a good browsing platform (aside from Flash)... guess what? A fresh Ubuntu install makes a better browsing platform, with much better support for today's web. Oh, and Flash works fine.

    56. Re:Nooo ! by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Call us back when you've had to write reams of code to put backward-compatibility hacks into your programs just to support an already-tiny, ever-decreasing, perpetually-complaining, and ultimately unpleaseable audience of people who refuse to upgrade their systems. We'll see how relative "whine" is when you're the one writing the code.

      Yah. I maintain a 15k line Javascript application that's compatible with IE 5.5. IE 5.5. And we're not wussing-out using any of those frameworks or anything, either. Nor are we skimping on testing. Sure, it's not a desktop app, but believe me I know exactly what the score is.

      Suck it, Mr. Trying-To-Make-Me-Look-Like-A-Hypocrite-Guy.

    57. Re:Nooo ! by palegray.net · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The GP specifically stated that the older Mac is a good browsing platform. It's not hard to train Grandma or Auntie to click a different icon to launch their web browser. Actually, come to think of it, it's the same icon but in a different place. That's not a huge leap; my mother in-law knows jack about computers, and easily switched to using Ubuntu on her laptop for stuff that is considerably more complicated than this.

    58. Re:Nooo ! by smash · · Score: 1

      You could also nail your balls to your desk - it doesn't mean its a good idea.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    59. Re:Nooo ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd be very surprised. More likely they just did what they usually do: stopped releasing any updates for versions older than $CURRENT_VER-1, without any kind of notification to anyone.

    60. Re:Nooo ! by Space+cowboy · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Dude. Seriously. Learn to use XCode.

      --
      Physicists get Hadrons!
    61. Re:Nooo ! by noidentity · · Score: 1

      Who said I was talking about the latest XCode? This was back in the Tiger days. Old? Sure, but I can point you to several programs that should have worked fine on 10.3.9, but don't, due to this issue.

    62. Re:Nooo ! by oldhack · · Score: 1

      Here's what should *not* determine when to end support: "I'm a programmer and working with this old API is soooo painful and my compiles take a few seconds longer! Whine!"

      Oh, I don't know. That sounds very reasonable to me. Maybe this should be a poll question.

      --
      Fuck systemd. Fuck Redhat. Fuck Soylent, too. Wait, scratch the last one.
    63. Re:Nooo ! by Rockoon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      When it is observed that these professional developers that work for Mozilla have basically told a whole bunch of people to fuck off, waving the your hands screaming "but its open source" does not negate the criticism.

      The real question is, how many 10.4 users had donated to Mozilla prior to them being told to fuck off.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    64. Re:Nooo ! by Kjella · · Score: 2

      How about keeping a security-patched branch? There can be some middle ground between bringing everything forward and dropping support completely. I mean sooner or later the world has to move on where new features are only on those platforms that support them.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    65. Re:Nooo ! by baka_toroi · · Score: 1

      Support for Tiger will/might be dropped in Firefox 3.7, not in Firefox 3.6. So you will get security updates for a year and a half, at least.

    66. Re:Nooo ! by barzok · · Score: 1

      What framework an application uses is an implementation detail.

      What framework an application uses is usually obvious from the application's appearance, behavior and interaction with the rest of the system.

      The Windows world doesn't advertise an app as being ".net!" because it doesn't freakin' matter...

      Every Windows app advertises whether it's .NET or not. Right in the system requirements and installer - "Requires .NET Framework X.Y" and the installer makes it very obvious that when the right version isn't present, it's going to be installed.

      .net apps are the same as Win32 apps.

      No they aren't. There are a lot of visual cues which will hint at whether an app is .NET or regular Win32, and they do feel different when they're running.

    67. Re:Nooo ! by bonch · · Score: 1

      So stick with older versions of the browser.

    68. Re:Nooo ! by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What framework an application uses is usually obvious from the application's appearance, behavior and interaction with the rest of the system.

      Sadly, yes, but only because most frameworks are awful. For example, GTK+ looks like an total alien on every OS except Linux. Java, likewise, is crappy on everything.

      But it shouldn't be that way.

      Every Windows app advertises whether it's .NET or not. Right in the system requirements and installer - "Requires .NET Framework X.Y" and the installer makes it very obvious that when the right version isn't present, it's going to be installed.

      You're confusing "feature" and "system requirement."

      The Apple developers put Cocoa on their *features* page. .net apps put .net on their *system requirements* page. Apples to oranges.

      No they aren't. There are a lot of visual cues which will hint at whether an app is .NET or regular Win32,

      Really? Like what?

    69. Re:Nooo ! by Mr.+Pibb · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's exactly this issue that pisses me off about Apple. While your typical /.er might be on a 1-3 year upgrade cycle, a lot of people (ie older parents/grandparents) buy a Mac because it's "easier" and are more inclined to be on a 5-10 year cycle. Their machines serve them well and do what they need--WP, email and web. Speed is NOT an issue when you're reading the news online or writing your Xmas letter. As far as my mom is concerned, there is no difference between the versions of OS X-- and why new versions of Firefox won't run anymore will baffle her.

      Yes, Apple is trying to be revolutionary and keep themselves at the forefront of technology, as well as maintain a manageable codebase. But this has been coming at the expense of (prematurely) obsoleting still-good hardware in the hands of a market that Apple has decided to ignore.

    70. Re:Nooo ! by bonch · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Windows 7 is significantly more consistent, UI-wise, than newer versions of OS X. If consistency is something you care about, you should be using Windows.

      You don't know what the hell you're talking about.

      There are at least five different menu styles in Windows, multiple dialog styles (including some dating back to Windows 3.1), toolbar styles including ribbons, and more.

      OS X had...textured windows. And those were unified in Leopard.

    71. Re:Nooo ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly. So many times I've read various themes and so forth being described as "Mac-like", and some people even say it about GNOME -- but all that proves to me is that these are people whose entire Mac experience consists of looking at screenshots or over a Mac user's shoulder. Linux people have no clue about how the Mac UI works, they think it's just a look.

    72. Re:Nooo ! by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The best way to get somebody to act like a "professional" is to offer to regularly emit blocks of US Mint gift cards in their direction for as long as they act so. Any other method amounts to playing silly emotional games(which, to their credit, do sometimes work).

    73. Re:Nooo ! by Mr.+Pibb · · Score: 1

      Of course! Let's not patch security holes! ...
      And then Grandma's email/bank acct/etc is hacked. Sorry, Grandma, you should have spent that extra $600 after all.

    74. Re:Nooo ! by Reservoir+Penguin · · Score: 2

      This is just plain silly. I am willing to bet my 1.2 ghz G4 ibook is quite a bit faster than the mainstream 1.6 ghz Atoms found in most Windows netbooks nowdays, and those netbooks have no problem running the latest versions of Firefox. It is still a very good and usable machine and I am not going to be wasteful and buy news hardware just for the sake of new hardware.

      --
      US-UK-Israel: The real Axis of Evil
    75. Re:Nooo ! by RebelWebmaster · · Score: 2, Informative

      The 10.4-supporting Firefox 3.6.x series will be getting security updates at least until mid-2011 (assuming the non-10.4-supporting 3.7.x or whatever they end up calling it series ships by the end of the year as planned). It's not inconceivable that it'll end up being longer than that given that Firefox 3.0.x still receives security updates.

    76. Re:Nooo ! by BZ · · Score: 4, Informative

      > Mozilla should have a very clear policy about backwards compatibility and follow it to the
      > letter.

      The basic setup is:

      1) Once an OS vendor drops support for an OS, support for it will not be maintained unless
              it's really easy to do.
      2) Whether an OS is supported depends on whether there are resources to support it and on
              how many users are using it.

      It's not exactly a clear policy, but the important part is that support decisions are pretty complicated and involve a lot of factors.... it's not clear to me what a sane policy would be that would not lead to dropping support in some cases when there's no real reason to do it.

      > Until Apple actively does something to break the older "deprecated" code in Firefox,
      > they should support older OSes

      10.6 dropped ATSUI support. 10.4 doesn't have Core Text. So the only way to support both is to have codepaths to use both text rendering backends and switch at runtime. Does that count as "does something to break"? ;)

      Thing is, it's all software. Everything can be worked around. The question is the cost (to users, in the end, either in terms of money or in terms of things users want that don't happen).

      > and you deal with the slightly older APIs/compilers to serve your users

      Not that simple. You have to use gcc 4.0 if you're going to run on 10.4. So doing that serves the 10.4 users. But on 10.5 and 10.6, using gcc 4.2 gives a pretty significant across-the-board speedup. So to properly serve those users, you want to be using gcc 4.2. Where that leaves you is either underserving 10.5/10.6 users to better serve 10.4 users or vice versa (at which point relative numbers of users start to matter), or shipping separate binaries with the ensuing user confusion during downloading, etc. So there's not an obvious course of action here that best serves "the users". It's a matter of compromise.

    77. Re:Nooo ! by bonch · · Score: 1

      Linux desktop drag-and-drop is a hack that still does not work consistently or reliably.

      In OS X, objects are read from and written to NSPasteboard objects by a global pasteboard server. Your objects can implement protocols to enable direct read/write access to the pasteboard without needing to encapsulate them.

    78. Re:Nooo ! by BZ · · Score: 2, Informative

      > Maybe Mozilla's done the user research and they know that they're not dropping many users,

      The second link in the summary has the data on that. In brief, as of end of January 1010, 25% of Firefox 3.5 Mac users (about 1.4 million users, or about 0.5% of total Firefox users) are using OS 10.4. 12% of Firefox 3.6 Mac users (about 36,000 users) are using OS 10.4.

      The big question mark, of course, is what those numbers will look like about 15 months from now, which is the earliest that Firefox 3.6 might be going out of support...

    79. Re:Nooo ! by RebelWebmaster · · Score: 2, Informative

      They actually used to use the OSX spellchecker and stopped because it had major issues with dictionary support.
      Here's the bug for it

    80. Re:Nooo ! by BZ · · Score: 1

      Unknown. The last Tiger security update was in Sept 2009, as I recall. Apple never announces official end-of-life dates for its OSes as far as I can see; it just silently stops shipping security updates at some point. Since those don't ship on a predictable schedule to start with, one never knows whether you've seen the last one or not.

    81. Re:Nooo ! by RebelWebmaster · · Score: 1

      Will it be by mid-2011, which is the earliest point that Firefox 3.6.x would stop receiving security updates? And that's assuming they hit their end of the year release target for 3.7, which is the version that would be dropping 10.4 support.

    82. Re:Nooo ! by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 1

      They actually used to use the OSX spellchecker and stopped because it had major issues with dictionary support.

      I know they claimed it worked at one point, but it never did for me. In the meantime, now Firefox doesn't know any of the words I've trained the my dictionary with, like all the tech specific acronyms I have to use. It works in everything else, just not Firefox. Likewise, as I said, there is no grammar checking. The bug you link to also mentions the lack of dictionary/thesaurus lookup. This extends to pretty much all system services from text translation to all my nice text manipulation scripts like fixing line endings from WordPad mangled text. Frankly, it sucks pretty badly compared to even average quality OS X apps. Is it really so hard to add a check box to let the user pick whether they want to use the Mozilla created spell checker or the OS X one?

    83. Re:Nooo ! by that+this+is+not+und · · Score: 1

      The Mac experience is built around the idea of consistency.

      People of that ideology wouldn't be using Mozilla in the first place. So their lockstep opinion doesn't really matter.

      The people still using 10.4 are by definition some of the non-koolaide drinkers. For instance, I have several G3 iMacs running 10.4 that I use occasionally as web terminals. I paid $5 each for them at a school auction, of course, so I am superdoublebad and probably Apple should hire a sniper to take me out.

    84. Re:Nooo ! by yttrstein · · Score: 1

      "Either you're a professional developer and you deal with the slightly older APIs/compilers to serve your users, or you're a hack."

      Bingo:

      Firefox 3.6, Windows XP SP3, 14 tabs open, two on flash pages: 1.2GB memory used
      Opera 10.10, Windows XP SP3, 14 tabs open to the identical pages: 330GB memory used

      I came to the conclusion some time ago that I was still using firefox because I was attached to the Netscape/Mozilla name, psychologically. Firefox really didn't do anything that a number of other browsers don't do at least as well, usually better, so I jumped ship and started using Opera. No crashes, no whacked out memory leaks carried over from MOSAIC for pete's sake, and flash works just fine.

    85. Re:Nooo ! by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      If i'm behind a statefull firewall that disallows incoming connections from the net a lack of OS security updates doesn't worry me as much as a lack of browser security updates. Especially with a browser like firefox that tends to use it's own code for almost everything.

      Yeah there could be a vulnerability in the TCP/IP stack but afaict they are a lot less common than browser vulnerabilities and harder for a compromised website to exploit.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    86. Re:Nooo ! by kwerle · · Score: 1

      Please no !

      There are a lot of old G3 macs around that can run only Tiger and are perfect as a browsing machine (if you don't want to watch flash videos).

      They're not going to revoke your browsing privileges. They're just not going to update your perfectly fine browser unless you update your perfectly fine OS.

    87. Re:Nooo ! by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      As somebody with OSX.3 on a 10-year old G3 with only a gig of ram and stock video card, I can tell you Flash videos run just fine. This tiresome meme needs to go away.

    88. Re:Nooo ! by mini+me · · Score: 1

      OS X took that and flushed it down the crapper, from when they decided to ship both chrome and aqua windows.

      Consistency has really nothing to do with the visual appearance.

      You can have a Cocoa app and a Qt app with the exact same visual theme and appear identical down to the last detail, but the Qt app will not behave anything like the Cocoa app.

      Those little inconsistencies mean a great deal to the end user. Cocoa is considered the standard on OS X, so any application deviating from that framework sticks out like a sore thumb.

      Windows has this problem too, but it is less obvious because it has so many different "standards" for interfaces and there is no real consistency with how an app must interact with the end user.

    89. Re:Nooo ! by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Or in other words, support decisions should *never* be made just based on developer preferences. The purpose of writing software is to serve your users.

      A case can be made for doing the former in the name of the latter. If Firefox devs believe that using new APIs saves them time that they can use on adding new features, or fixing existing stuff, and if the demand for new features and/or fixes is higher than demand for Tiger support, then dropping the latter is very rational.

      Whether they did such a cost/benefit analysis or not, is another matter.

    90. Re:Nooo ! by yareckon · · Score: 1

      The appropriate OS for a 5 year old Mac that still needs new software is linux. This has been true for years. You can get new software on linux, and your hardware support will generally be great on a machine of that age. I Have done this with a powerbook 1400 (barely supported, but interesting), iBook 800Mhz (great), Mac Mini G4, and now a Macbook Air. Currently the Mini is in the linux hardware support sweet spot. The iBook would be a little slow for a full Gnome or KDE, and the Macbook still has some driver issues because it's a niche machine that hasn't been out for years yet (a deadly combiation). Your biggest issue with new macs will be their wonky Bios/EFI, but there are programs to help with that, and the end user applications available to you will be consistently much newer that what even the last version of mac os supports. It's worth popping in an ubuntu live cd (there are ppc versions too, just harder to find on the site) to see how your mac works under a modern os.

    91. Re:Nooo ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Apple added automatic garbage collection ?

    92. Re:Nooo ! by MrHanky · · Score: 1

      Oooh, the ancient "it's a hack!" pseudo-argument.

      re: reliability: In which cases does the XDND protocol stop working?

      re: consistency: Does drag-and-drop work between Windows apps running under Wine on OS X and OS X apps? No? So consistency isn't really there either. You just choose to ignore it.

    93. Re:Nooo ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or you could have a legacy 10.4 build separate from the 10.5/6 build but with a common codebase and compile time selection. You wouldn't want to fork too often, but it's probably still worth it IF there are sufficient users. The switchover to Intel for Macs wasn't that long ago, and the cut-off for machines that can't upgrade to 10.5 wasn't too long before that.

      It's certainly more recent than the start of Windows XP, which is still well supported. Sure there's a lot more people still using XP than older Macs because the XP installed base was way bigger to begin with. But there's something to be said for a guaranteed support lifetime. Some older iMac users already have been shafted by Apple no longer selling replacement power supplies before the official 6-year support eol that was promised. Are they going to get shafted by Mozilla now too?

    94. Re:Nooo ! by Swift2001 · · Score: 1

      Apple doesn't advertise Cocoa. It runs faster, and is less buggy. Users notice that, you'd be sure.

      Some poor lost Mac soul braggin' on Windows 7. Thought I'd seen everything.

    95. Re:Nooo ! by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      10.6 dropped ATSUI support. 10.4 doesn't have Core Text. So the only way to support both is to have codepaths to use both text rendering backends and switch at runtime. Does that count as "does something to break"?

      Yes, absolutely, thanks for explaining the real technical reason for this break.

      It sounds like it's GP's option #2, then - a fubar by Apple.

    96. Re:Nooo ! by hairyfeet · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That is one of the things I like about Windows. Say what you want about MSFT but their support cycles are pretty damned long and if you know anything at all about Windows it isn't hard to get it running well on older hardware. Thanks to those nice long support cycles and easy tweaking my GF is using a spare 733MHz office box with a 5200 PCI and 384Mb of RAM with XP Pro to surf the net while I replaced her motherboard in her 3GHz P4. For the things she does, surfing, webmail, Facebook, it works just fine and she is quite happy with it. I just added Comodo AV+Firewall and set everything to auto and she is a happy little camper.

      And with the spare LGA775 board I had lying around and a $30 memory upgrade her P4 will probably last her until 2014 easy, and if she still has the box by then I'll just max out the RAM and give her Windows 7/8, which I'm sure will run just fine on it. Say what you want about MSFT but you really do get a pretty long time when it comes to security updates. I just now retired my 1GHz P3 Celeron with Win2K with a 1.8GHz Sempron box with XP that I'm sure will run Windows 7 just fine when XP is EOL. It makes a great whisper quiet netbox and uses very little electricity.

      If all you are doing is basic tasks there really isn't a need with Windows to have the latest and greatest hardware, and it is certainly nicer than shitcanning working hardware. According to Wikipedia Apple only released 10.4 in 2005, correct? Man you really gotta stay on the upgrade treadmill with those guys. I think I'll stick with the OS that lets me build monster quads for less than $700 and keep them for a decade, thanks anyway. I gotta admit those Apples are pretty, but they ain't replace my machine every other year pretty, at least not to me. I guess for all those 10.4 guys getting dumped by the Moz there is always Opera. It still works on 10.4, right?

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    97. Re:Nooo ! by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You're welcome to disagree with me, but it's not really fair to say I don't know what I'm talking about when I've used (and written software for) both OSes in question a significant amount of time.

    98. Re:Nooo ! by Gr8Apes · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Dude.

      You're talking to a Mac Classic user. Back then, yes, consistency mattered. Now? Now there's no consistency. None. Nada.

      OS X took that and flushed it down the crapper, from when they decided to ship both chrome and aqua windows.

      Windows 7 is significantly more consistent, UI-wise, than newer versions of OS X. If consistency is something you care about, you should be using Windows. There was a time when Apple was the only good place to go for us rare users that valued usability, but that time is long-passed. Mac has gone downhill while everybody else is racing upwards, and there's no real noticeable difference anymore.

      Please don't even mention consistency and Windows in the same sentence. It's an obvious troll.

      There's at least 3 classes of windows, with some being resizable, some not, some being scrollable, others not. Some you can cut and paste from, others not. And these are all in various system administration applications installed in a plain vanilla default installation. We won't even start with the the classic vs category vs "new" view of Control panel, or any of the other multitudes of changes that were made for apparently no good reason other than to drive new revenue in the MCSE training/certification program.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    99. Re:Nooo ! by KharmaWidow · · Score: 1

      I think the decision should be based on installed user base. There are plenty of Mac-centric sites that offer browser-use and OS-use statics. Not to mention /. and Google.

      I use 10.4 on my work machine because I like 10.4 window interface better and all my work software works on it. To go to 10.6 would require adopting to a new interface and upgrading software. .... which I don't need to do to do my job.

      I am using FF 3.6 but it crashes a lot. I think its a cache problem. Wikipedia crashes it... I may end up going back to FF 2.x

    100. Re:Nooo ! by Goaway · · Score: 1

      Chrome relies on V8, which needs to have a whole new code generator written for each processor architecture. Nobody has written one for PPC. It is nowhere near as simple as building a universal binary.

    101. Re:Nooo ! by Atti+K. · · Score: 1

      As far as my mom is concerned, there is no difference between the versions of OS X-- and why new versions of Firefox won't run anymore will baffle her.

      If different versions of OS X make no difference to your mom, I doubt newer or older versions of Firefox will.

      Wanna run 10.4 for years to come? Fine, just stick with Firefox 3.6 or whatever will be the last Firefox supporting it.

      (typing on an iBook G4 with Leopard, and being aware of the fact that it's the last version of OS X that it will run, but might do so for a few more years).

      --
      .sig: No such file or directory
    102. Re:Nooo ! by Siker · · Score: 1

      While your typical /.er might be on a 1-3 year upgrade cycle, a lot of people (ie older parents/grandparents) buy a Mac because it's "easier" and are more inclined to be on a 5-10 year cycle.

      Great, then it'll take them 5 years to upgrade Firefox and notice something is wrong. Hey, that's just around the time they're upgrading their computer anyhow!

    103. Re:Nooo ! by Shikaku · · Score: 1

      Firefox 3.6, Windows XP SP3, 14 tabs open, two on flash pages: 1.2GB memory used
      Opera 10.10, Windows XP SP3, 14 tabs open to the identical pages: 330GB memory used

      I want to know how you have 330GB of RAM.

    104. Re:Nooo ! by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      I had it explained to me back in the 90s.

      Mac users tend to keep their computers for a long time. That's because they work, doing what their owners want. They generally don't stop working.

      That being said, people with five-year-old Macs, however happy they are with them, generally don't buy new software, and economically it's not worth it to spend much money on backwards compatibility. I doubt they're all that interested in keeping up with the latest Firefox, either.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    105. Re:Nooo ! by rolfwind · · Score: 1

      Here's what should *not* determine when to end support: "I'm a programmer and working with this old API is soooo painful and my compiles take a few seconds longer! Whine!"

      Firefox is a free browser... if the API gets too painful, and maintainability becomes a nightmare -- why shouldn't a company decide its limited resources are served better elsewhere?

    106. Re:Nooo ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I guess for all those 10.4 guys getting dumped by the Moz there is always Opera. It still works on 10.4, right?

      While Opera's compatibility list is so long it seems to include 'your mom' if she's norwegian-friendly, Opera does regularly drop support within the latest version of its browser, simply keeping an archive of old versions for old hardware. These are not bug-patched.

      System requirements for Opera for Mac
       
      Note: Opera 9 and Opera 10 are Universal Binaries, meaning that they run on both Intel-based and PowerPC-based Macs. This is the reason for the large file size compared to other platforms.
       
      Starting with OS X 10.6 "Snow Leopard", the binary is no longer universal, but only for Intel-based Macs.
       
      Opera 10
      OS X Panther (10.3) or higher on an Intel- or PowerPC-based system.
       
      Opera 9
      OS X Panther (10.3) or higher on an Intel- or PowerPC-based system. OS X Jaguar (10.2) is believed to work, but is officially unsupported.
       
      Opera 8
      OS X Jaguar (10.2) or higher on a PowerPC-based system.
       
      Opera 7
      OS X Puma (10.1) or higher on a PowerPC-based system.
       
      Opera 6
      OS 9 or higher on a PowerPC-based system.
       
      Opera 5
      OS 7.5-OS 9 on a PowerPC-based system (Opera 5 will not run on OS X).

    107. Re:Nooo ! by omfgnosis · · Score: 1

      In the case of Chrome, possibly. V8 (the Chrome Javascript engine) does a lot of low-level work that is tailored to i386/x86-64. To maintain a fork of that new engine, which has never existed on PPC before, for a platform that's barely in use and dropping rapidly, would require significantly more resources.

    108. Re:Nooo ! by MrHanky · · Score: 1

      Wow, you really have no clue whatsoever how a computer works. "KDE may be plasma based on QT with an OO toolkit"?! You just string along a bunch of brand names and believe you actually said something. Let me translate this into something more human readable for you: "Hurr may be Grargrar based on Blargh with an OO toolkit." Now, the only thing that actually makes sense there is the "with an OO toolkit", which is actually wrong. Qt is an OO toolkit (and much more).

      As for KDE not working properly, all I can say is that once again, you don't know what you're talking about. Unless you can prove that you've actually tested it, I won't belive you. Dropped all the decent apps? You mean Kmail, still superior to Mail.app in its KDE4 incarnation? Amarok? Still there. Kate? Nope. Kwrite? No. Konqueror? Wrong. Perhaps you meant Noatun? Well, it's not great, but I guess most people would prefer it to Quicktime Player.

    109. Re:Nooo ! by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      Yeah. Just to put this in perspective, both in terms of percentage of the platform's users and age of the OS, this is roughly equivalent to dropping support for Vista.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    110. Re:Nooo ! by Dr.+Hellno · · Score: 1

      What are the significant improvements in 10.5? I haven't tried it because I never really heard about any.

    111. Re:Nooo ! by pdo400 · · Score: 0

      Unless you have limitless resources or extremely limited goals, you are underserving anyone using a decent browser by spending development time on IE 5.5.

      Nobody is trying to make you look like a hypocrite, but I will point out that you are either intellectually dishonest or deficient if you think there is no user cost to supporting many API versions.

      --
      --
    112. Re:Nooo ! by prockcore · · Score: 1

      Ok.. I just did. I dragged an image from firefox and dropped it into gimp. Gimp opens the image. Maybe it's something magic with Gimp? I just repeated the process, this time, dropping the image into Open Office. Hey, that works too.. the image is now embedded in the Writer document.

    113. Re:Nooo ! by 7+digits · · Score: 1

      > Hell, the Mac software community used to point out "Cocoa!!" as a feature. And got pissy with me when I told them that Cocoa isn't a feature, it's an implementation detail and your users don't give a flying crap.

      Try to move the window of a busy carbon app, and come back to talk to me, young padawan...

    114. Re:Nooo ! by Captain+Splendid · · Score: 1

      Networking in general is far more stable and easy to use in 10.5.

      I still can't get the 10.4 machine to "see" a windows networked printer for a reliable length of time.

      --
      Linux, you magnificent bastard, I read the fucking manual!
    115. Re:Nooo ! by commodoresloat · · Score: 3, Funny

      Java, likewise, is crappy on everything.

      I thought consistency is a good thing?

    116. Re:Nooo ! by Pandrake · · Score: 1

      I'm gonna have to agree with bonch. I've had to work a magic dance around Windows to get my scripts to play nice with the many, many, many different keystroke commands and window types compared to the same old song and dance with my OSX commands and window types. Granted, I'm talking about WinXP not Vista or 7, and with OSX I had a steep learning curve with some new and unexpected things, plus a few things that got dropped completely - but that was only when I started going from OS8.6 to OSX.

    117. Re:Nooo ! by ZachPruckowski · · Score: 1

      The answer is: Mozilla should have a very clear policy about backwards compatibility and follow it to the letter. Correct me if I'm wrong, but they don't currently have that.

      I think this is hard to establish when different OS vendors have radically different philosophies. Apple dropped Tiger support a few months ago (after ~4.5 years of support), but XP will be like 12-13 years old when Microsoft stops releasing security patches for it in 2014. Similarly, desktop Linux releases are supported for timeframes ranging from 12 months to 3 years. If Mozilla said "we'll support anything less than 3 years old", they'd have to drop Vista support. If they make it 5 years, then they're supporting versions of Linux that the vendor abandoned years ago. If they say "three most recent releases", then they wind up in a pattern where they're dropping support for an Ubuntu while keeping a similarly-aged Fedora or Debian distro (which have the same libraries and dependencies).

      And for the record, my guess is that most of the holdup would be in testing. Having to run the general tests on a 10.4 system, and having to run and maintain tests for specific 10.4 quirks would be the developer-time cost.

    118. Re:Nooo ! by BZ · · Score: 1

      > Or you could have a legacy 10.4 build separate from the 10.5/6 build

      Possible, at a fair amount of cost in maintenance and code complexity and a good bit of cost in user confusion when downloading builds.

      > but it's probably still worth it IF there are sufficient users

      That's the big question. Right now about 25% of the Firefox 3.5/3.6 Mac users are on 10.4. Where will it be a year from now? Who knows. In general, about 1% of current Firefox 3.5/3.6 users across all platforms are on Mac OS X 10.4.

      > It's certainly more recent than the start of Windows XP, which is still well supported

      XP is also a heck of a lot more like Win7 or Vista than 10.4 is like 10.6. That is, it's a lot easier to support XP. And yes, the large number of users probably doesn't hurt.

      > Some older iMac users already have been shafted by Apple

      They're shafted by Apple period. Apple has typicall been dropping support of its operating system versions within about 4 years of initially shipping them, and within about 2 years of last shipping them. As in, you buy a computer and 2 years later security updates for your OS stop. That's about the point at which Mozilla happens to stop security updates for your browser on that OS too, on the premise that you're insecure no matter what.

    119. Re:Nooo ! by jamincollins · · Score: 1

      Time Machine alone is a huge reason to upgrade. Sure similar results can be had with shell scripting, but it really isn't nearly the same experience.

    120. Re:Nooo ! by BZ · · Score: 1

      Mozilla's OS X usage statistics are in the second link from the summary....

    121. Re:Nooo ! by ZachPruckowski · · Score: 1

      Apple's general tendency is to support it's current OS and then the one previous OS. In this case, that'd be Snow Leopard and Leopard. Tiger got a security update in 2009, but it hasn't received any of the 2010 ones. I think it's safe to assume that since Tiger wasn't included in the 2010-001 patch, Apple has no intention of providing security patches or bug fixes for it.

    122. Re:Nooo ! by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      Well there is still Seamonkey, but since it is based on Firefox code eventually it will kill OSX 10.4 as well. It sounds like with SeaMonkey some 10.4 using developers need to get together and support either Firefox or SeaMonkey by backporting fixes. And can't Linux PPC code run on OSX? How about using the Linux PPC Firefox?

      Isn't one of the big selling points of FOSS that someone else can fork if there is a need? Seems like there are more than enough 10.4 users out there for there to be a need. I still can't believe Apple drops support THAT quickly, man that just bites. One more reason I'm glad I'm using Windows, where the hardware usually gives up the ghost long before the OS is out of date. Hell I'd probably still be using my 1.1GHz Celery Win2K box if it didn't use one of those proprietary as hell HP PSUs that cost more than the box is worth to replace. I figure between the 1.8GHz Sempron netbox and the AMD quad I've got another 6-10 years of service easy, which they will then be handed down to relatives like my P4s were.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    123. Re:Nooo ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is your mother really baffled that Firefox wont run? I mean shes not your typical slashdotter and not on a frequent upgrade path right? 10.4 has been getting regular security updates including safari so I do not see how apple is ignoring this market. Its a fair guess as long as that hardware can still be covered under extended applecare Apple will continue to support it.

    124. Re:Nooo ! by yuhong · · Score: 1

      AFRIK, it was reported that the raise to 867MHz as the minimum was kind of last-minute.

    125. Re:Nooo ! by yuhong · · Score: 1

      In fact, even some hacks are not that stupid. VirtualDub by Avery Lee still support 98/ME/NT4.

    126. Re:Nooo ! by SilentChasm · · Score: 1

      I guess for all those 10.4 guys getting dumped by the Moz there is always Opera. It still works on 10.4, right?

      http://www.opera.com/support/kb/view/793/
      Apparently Opera still works on OS X Panther (10.3) as well as 10.4.

    127. Re:Nooo ! by pawzlion · · Score: 1

      If you're looking for a modern, blazingly fast, multi-process browser that runs on old PPC machines albeit running Leopard or better, there's Stainless which is inspired by Chrome.

    128. Re:Nooo ! by jonadab · · Score: 1

      > Newer Firefox will probably still work on Linux on G4,

      That isn't necessarily going to make Mac users happy. Typically, they didn't buy the G4 to run Linux. If they wanted to run Linux, they could have gotten a better-performing Celeron system for less money.

      > or in X11 on OSX 10.4.

      If so, they should be specifically saying so. "To run our software on your OS, you will need to install an optional library, which your OS vendor offers free of charge" is not entirely the same thing as "our software will no longer run on your OS".

      --
      Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
    129. Re:Nooo ! by bonch · · Score: 1

      I've written software for both too. I wasn't exaggerating about Windows having so many interfaces. Much of OS X's interface conventions are the defaults built into the APIs. You can add custom views to things like save dialogs, toolbars, printer preferences, and so on, but Cocoa provides the default designs. When new visual styles are introduced in iLife apps, they're testbeds for future public releases, like the iTunes-style source list or the HUD panel in iPhoto which both became available to developers in Leopard.

      OS X does have variations on common controls--a unified toolbar versus a standard one, a panel versus a HUD, a rounded button versus a square--but that's different from flat-out contradictory interfaces like ribbons versus toolbars, Windows 95 style dialogs versus Vista style dialogs, and so on. The whole experience feels grafted together from years of different versions of Windows.

    130. Re:Nooo ! by jonadab · · Score: 1

      > GTK+ looks like an total alien on every OS except Linux.

      IMO, GTK is significantly more consistent with "native" (Win32) apps on Windows than it is with non-GTK apps on Linux (e.g., KDE stuff, or the occasional Tk or Xaw application).

      Personally, I'm more interested in functionality and flexible customizeability than absolute visual consistency, so having GTK and Qt apps (say) on the same system doesn't really bother me, as long as they're all good solid well-designed and properly configurable applications that meet my needs.

      (Xaw does bother me, but that's because it's terrible.)

      --
      Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
    131. Re:Nooo ! by jonadab · · Score: 1

      > I maintain a 15k line Javascript application
      > that's compatible with IE 5.5.

      Ouch.

      I'm pretty sure I'd rather support a punchcard-driven mainframe than IE 5.5.

      If your IE-5.5-supporting Javascript code is by some miracle of herculean effort *also* compatible with modern browsers in standards-based rendering modes, you ought to win some kind of prize. (Do they give out prizes for masochism? What do they do, pin a medal on your bare chest?)

      --
      Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
    132. Re:Nooo ! by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      Personally, I'm more interested in functionality and flexible customizeability than absolute visual consistency, so having GTK

      Considering how wrong GTK gets Open/Save dialogs *alone* in Windows... well, if you're interested in functionality, you should run screaming in the other direction is all I'm saying. Linux might be a different story.

      I'd much rather them get the Open/Save dialogs correct in the first place than to utterly botch them, but give me the customizability to fix them myself! (If that's even possible.)

    133. Re:Nooo ! by jonadab · · Score: 1

      > a lot of people (ie older parents/grandparents)
      > buy a Mac because it's "easier" and are more
      > inclined to be on a 5-10 year cycle.

      In the Windows world, a lot of people are on an 8-12 year upgrade cycle.

      I wouldn't be terribly surprised if more people are still using Windows 98 than the total number of Mac users, all versions combined (actual general-purpose computers, I mean, not handheld music players and such). Obviously there's no reliable way to get actual numbers for how many Windows 98 systems are still in use, but I bet it's a lot higher than most computer geeks realize. People's tendency to upgrade promptly increases (more or less) geometrically with their level of computer knowledge, and the people whom an IT professional knows personally tend to be significantly above average.

      --
      Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
    134. Re:Nooo ! by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      It's just Javascript, it's pretty much read-only access to the DOM + a few event handlers. The trickiest part is how IE 5.5 handles event handlers, we have to do a bunch of workarounds so we can install them without stomping on existing ones, but that code's all written... so from there it's just knowing the DOM quirks, which are pretty easily worked-around.

      Since it's *just* Javascript, we're compatible with modern browsers. Just makes the script more bloated, and there's quite a few code paths that modern browsers will never see.

      And frankly, Safari on Mac's wacky-ass handling on INPUT fields (with no blur events on checkboxes or radios by default) is almost as much code to work-around. Oh and then there's Firefox's ass-backwards handling of fields set to "disabled"-- hey FF! "Disabled" means the user can't change the value! It doesn't mean disable ALL EVENT HANDLERS (AND ALL BUBBLING!!) And Firefox's strange habit of shoving blank text nodes all over the fucking DOM... if the text node is nothing but white-space, please just spare us ok!? Anyway...

      And yah, if we were doing more DOM manipulation than reading values from it, I'd probably refuse to work on it until we dropped IE 5.5. Been meaning to bring up dropping 5.5 anyway, actually...

    135. Re:Nooo ! by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      We'll have to agree to disagree.

      I'm not saying that Windows is some paragon of perfection, UI-wise. But in my opinion, the default Microsoft software set is more internally-consistent than the Apple set-- I mean, you buy a Mac and you get Garage Band, iPhoto, Time Machine, Finder, that awful real-time search interface in Finder... hell, how do you even know what a Mac app is *supposed* to look like?

      Beyond that I'll shut up, since I haven't really dug into a version of OS X since 10.4, and maybe things have vastly improved. (I doubt it, but benefit of the doubt.)

    136. Re:Nooo ! by toddestan · · Score: 1

      Well, it's not like you have much of a choice when Apple kills support for your hardware. You would think that for a much as you pay for a Mac, you'd think they'd support them a bit longer.

      But hey, at least with the Intel Macs you can always install Windows if you don't like Linux so much. Kind of funny how Microsoft is going to support your Apple hardware long after Apple has forgotten about you.

    137. Re:Nooo ! by Samah · · Score: 1

      Java, likewise, is crappy on everything.

      Do not confuse Java with Swing. Swing is the default GUI toolkit that ships with the official JRE, and is the most widely used for that reason. Poorly coded Swing applications will look awful on most platforms, I agree. Even the so-called "native look and feel" is pretty poor.

      Alternatively, you could use SWT. It requires distribution of extra libraries, but it hooks into your platform's widget toolkit and will look just like any other native application.

      --
      Homonyms are fun!
      You're driving your car, but they're riding their bikes there.
    138. Re:Nooo ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...

      Call us back when you've had to write reams of code to put backward-compatibility hacks into your programs just to support an already-tiny, ever-decreasing, perpetually-complaining, and ultimately unpleaseable audience of people

      seriously sounds like you are whining, dude! Chill out, man! :)

      who refuse to upgrade their systems.

      It's not they're these people do this cause they're stubborn...
      1. upgrading (especially with a Mac) is not an inexpensive option.
      2. Sometimes (again, especially with a Mac -- even when it's 3-4 yrs old and after being used as the primary home+work computer) it isn't even really necessary.. the damn thing works fine! One doesn't have to sell off a 10yr old car that works fine, right? That's all. G4/G5 [i don't know about G3 so I won't comment on that] Mac users just find it perplexing that they are being indirectly asked to shelf an efficient, functioning computer.

      The only sad fact is that now respectable companies like Mozilla are choosing to pull the rug out from a Machine that's in perfectly good health. And on that front, I think Apple itself needs to do more - it has considerable clout that it refuses to use to back its customers.

    139. Re:Nooo ! by hardwarefreak · · Score: 1

      Maybe Mozilla's done the user research and they know that they're not dropping many users, but just from reading the comments in this Slashdot thread, I think they may be dropping more users than they realize.

      Is this what happened when Mozilla announced rather loudly quite a while back that Windows 2000 would not be supported by FF 3.5 and beyond? I'm very pleased that they pulled an about face (with little/zero public notification): one day I just saw in the tray that an update was available, and it was 3.5. I installed it and it works fine. Somebody had second thoughts (and they were the correct thoughts).

      Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.9.1.7) Gecko/20091221 Firefox/3.5.7

    140. Re:Nooo ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm running Windows 95 you insensitive clod!

    141. Re:Nooo ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you've ever dealt with the massive headache of ANSI vs. UNICODE you would know why this feat is gargantuan.

    142. Re:Nooo ! by Bungie · · Score: 1

      Granny is going to be equally at home on any OS. This is especially true if she's just using the machine as a web terminal.

      The problem is that people don't who use a computer for web browser often do more than just use the web browser. They also check e-mail. They probably save and organize their files. They probably edit some documents and do printing. There's probably some games on there they play.

      They probably have some sort of workflow figured out for performing most of their computer tasks. Old people are set in their ways and don't like to change things that are working well for them. Granny knows when she's seeing a different "screen", the smallest things that you or I would never notice will totally be a dealbreaker for them.

      --
      The clash of honour calls, to stand when others fall.
    143. Re:Nooo ! by poopdeville · · Score: 1

      Or maybe you just downloaded a trojan...

      --
      After all, I am strangely colored.
    144. Re:Nooo ! by Shin-LaC · · Score: 1

      That's not quite true. I'm still getting security updates for my iMac G5 (~2004), and that's pretty much the worst possible case because it's an entire obsolete architecture.

    145. Re:Nooo ! by Shin-LaC · · Score: 1

      In terms of user experience, 10.4 was superior to 10.5 for IME use because it allowed having a different active IME per document. 10.5 dropped that feature. I think 10.6 restored it.

    146. Re:Nooo ! by Shin-LaC · · Score: 1

      10.6 dropped ATSUI support. 10.4 doesn't have Core Text. So the only way to support both is to have codepaths to use both text rendering backends and switch at runtime.

      We're talking about drawing text here. Why don't you just put a CoreText-like wrapper around the old ATSUI code? How hard can that be?
      In fact, considering how Firefox is a multiplatform program with its own GUI framework (XUL), I'm surprised you don't already have a generic text-rendering wrapper.

      or shipping separate binaries with the ensuing user confusion during downloading

      That's ridiculous. You have the OS version right there in the user-agent string. In fact, you're *already* using it to offer me the right version of Firefox to download for my OS and language!

      So there's not an obvious course of action here that best serves "the users".

      Yes there is. Ship two binaries.

    147. Re:Nooo ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People of that ideology wouldn't be using Mozilla in the first place.

      Indeed, Mozilla is a terrible browser compared to Safari or Chromium. Mozilla isn't even consistent with Apple's GUI guidelines. I may as well be using X11 and applications written in a dozen different GUI toolkits, for all the good Mozilla on OS X does to my workflow. (Then again, I do that on a Linux box. I run XMonad and set up my own keyboard shortcuts in the spirit of MacVim + OS X. And I stay away from any application that uses a toolkit I can't easily change the shortcuts for.)

      Oh, most Mac users don't use Chromium. There is no "lockstep opinion" about Chromium. But its consistent with Apple's GUI guidelines. Heck, it has the same keyboard shortcuts as Safari.

      So their lockstep opinion doesn't really matter.

      Of course not. Only your opinion matters. Google isn't interested in using Apple's code to capture Apple's browser share. So they're not duplicating large parts of the UI , simplifying others, and releasing a competing browser that is almost 100% muscle memory compatible with Safari.

      Oh wait...

      And of course, you're so smart you can see why competition between applications that are muscle memory compatible is a good thing.

      Oh wait...

      They are literally drop in replacements for each other, from the user's perspective (even if there are administrative differences). The cost of switching to a competitor is reduced tremendously. Considering how different Vista looked from XP, would the jump from XP to to OS X be so big if they used the same keyboard shortcuts?

      Do you even know why Microsoft uses Ctrl as its meta key? It was not by design. Apple released a GUI operating system with copying, cutting, and pasting before Microsoft did. The Apple/Command key is much easier to hit than Ctrl, since all you have to do to hit is is tuck your thumb in and type, as opposed to moving your wrist and hand and stretching your pinkie and then moving your hand back to the home row in order to continue typing. Microsoft had to change their shortcuts due to "look and feel" issues.

      Apple's "lockstep opinions" about consistency are meant specifically to aide the beginner user and the touch typist power user. The "no right clicking" rule brought on by the historical use of a one button mouse is a great example. Right click contextual menus are useful. But they are also impossible to find unless you go around right clicking on every GUI element you see. That's typically a bad idea. The semantics of right clicking aren't necessarily consistent in any operating system. Plenty of OS X applications have right click context menus now. And they are useful if you know about them. But -- and here's the important part -- you don't have to know anything about them in order to use the functionality they let you use. This is unlike Windows, where right-click actions were sometimes the only (and invisible) way to do something, at least last time I used it.

    148. Re:Nooo ! by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

      Networking in general is far more stable and easy to use in 10.5.

      But, but, but ... I thought that Apple systems "just worked".
      Heretic!.

      Burn the heretic!!

      Glad to see someone else who couldn't figure out what was meant to "just work" either. I never bothered to upgrade from 10.4 either. I just sold the machine (for nearly £100 more than I paid for it!)

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
    149. Re:Nooo ! by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      Hell, the Mac software community used to point out "Cocoa!!" as a feature. And got pissy with me when I told them that Cocoa isn't a feature, it's an implementation detail and your users don't give a flying crap.

      It was a feature until about 10.3, because Cocoa and Carbon used entirely different event models. This meant that Cocoa apps got to use system services, while Carbon apps didn't. Users could select things in Cocoa apps, hit the shortcut key for their favourite services, and have them invoked. In Carbon apps, nothing would happen. The same was true for a few other system integration features.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    150. Re:Nooo ! by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      As a trivial example, Qt used to (and possibly still does; I've been avoiding Qt apps on OS X for a while) get the shortcut keys for navigation in a text field wrong. If you hold option and press left in every native OS X app (Cocoa or Carbon), you skip one word left. If you did this in a Qt app, it skipped one character left (I think) and you needed instead to use control-left (which, in every other OS X app, is skip to the start of the line).

      This meant that Mac users had to actually think about how to navigate in a text field. It didn't just affect the Qt app, either. After using a Qt app for a while, you then had to think about whether you were using a Qt app or not in every other app on the system, so it made you less efficient at using every single program.

      The fact that you used Cocoa in an app may be an implementation detail. It is possible to have an app that doesn't use Cocoa but does look and feel like a native app and integrates properly with the rest of the system. If you use Cocoa, however, you get this stuff all for free, so saying 'Cocoa!' in your marketing is a simple shorthand for 'integrates with the rest of the system and has a consistent look and feel that matches every other app that you use which also uses Cocoa'.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    151. Re:Nooo ! by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      Has Apple dropped support for 10.4? I have a machine running 10.4 and it regularly receives things via Software Update.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    152. Re:Nooo ! by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      Clang already ships with the developer tools for 10.6 (as does GCC and LLVM-GCC), but currently Clang's C++ support is immature. It is written in C++, and only became self-hosting last week. Mozilla is a big chunk of (really ugly) C++ code.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    153. Re:Nooo ! by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      CoreText won't help with that. The systemwide spell checker is a system service that is automatically supported by the high-level text view classes. Core Text is a low-level API for laying out sequences of glyphs on the screen.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    154. Re:Nooo ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually Opera 10 still runs on OSX 10.3!

      Our office still have many 10.3 machines that I've started to migrate to Opera 10. The only alternatives are Firefox 2.0 and Safari 1.3(!), and they're starting to show their age.

      If Opera can still make a modern browser work on 10.3, why can't Mozilla at least support 10.4?

    155. Re:Nooo ! by BZ · · Score: 1

      What OS do you have installed on it, though? Apple supports its hardware a lot longer than it supports its software.

    156. Re:Nooo ! by BZ · · Score: 1

      > How hard can that be?

      Pretty hard, it turns out, unless you don't care how slow it is.

      > I'm surprised you don't already have a generic text-rendering wrapper.

      Not sure what you mean by that. There's a generic text-rendering API that is implemented via either ATSUI or CoreText right now, selected at runtime; that introduces a lot of complication and slows things down on Mac.

      > You have the OS version right there in the user-agent string.

      . I'm just passing on what I was told by the people working on the download stuff.

      > Yes there is. Ship two binaries.

      Is this the best course of action, though? Is that better than spending the same resources on making the browser work better on 10.5 and 10.6 instead?

    157. Re:Nooo ! by BZ · · Score: 1

      It's receiving updates to the apps. The last update to the core OS itself was in September 2009, right when 10.6 shipped. They never announce end of support, so we won't know whether they've dropped it until they just haven't shipped any security fixes for a while.... and since they don't ship those on a regular schedule, no one knows what the right "while" is.

    158. Re:Nooo ! by jonadab · · Score: 1

      > Considering how wrong GTK gets Open/Save dialogs *alone* in Windows...

      I hadn't noticed.

      The main programs I've seen with GTK widgets on Windows are Gimp, Inkscape, Emacs, and Freeciv. Maybe they don't suffer from the problem? Emacs obviously wouldn't because it uses the minibuffer in lieu of Open/Save dialogs. Gimp does some of its own custom stuff in the save dialog (notably, instead of automatically filling in the extension when you choose a filetype, it automatically fills in the filetype based on the extension), so maybe it doesn't use the regular GTK save dialog either? Oh, and civserver takes savegame filenames on the command line and generates save files automatically based on server options. Not sure why I haven't noticed anything wrong in Inkscape.

      Out of curiousity, what, exactly, does GTK get wrong about file open/save dialogs on Windows?

      > Linux might be a different story.

      Linux is what I use on my own workstation, both at home and at work, but I'm significantly familiar with Windows systems from working briefly with other people's computers, when I'm away from my desk for whatever reason, or when somebody needs help with something. I guess I probably use Windows about ten or twelve hours a week, all told.

      --
      Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
    159. Re:Nooo ! by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      Out of curiousity, what, exactly, does GTK get wrong about file open/save dialogs on Windows?

      You'll have to excuse vagueness, I'm not going to install GTK+ again on my nice clean Windows 7 box. But as a very small list from memory:
      1) Shortcuts to folders were treated as files
      2) (On OS X) the dialog alphabetized incorrectly (files would be listed: a.jpg, b.jpg, x.jpg, A.jpg, D.jpg... OS X is case-insensitive)
      3) (On Windows) no accessibility features work... meaning no voice control, no tablet stylus support, no touchscreen support (that's universal among all GTK+, BTW. On a tablet it's doubly-useless)
      4) No open to move, delete, create shortcut, map network drive or any of those other options normal Open/Save dialogs have
      5) It's been awhile, but I seem to recall it was incapable of accessing FTP servers mapped as drives in Windows, or any network drive that didn't have a drive letter (could be wrong on this one)
      6) And of course BUTT FUGLY

      Anyway, I'd really have to install a GTK+ application to make a full list.

    160. Re:Nooo ! by theurge14 · · Score: 1

      You're really running a PC built in 1999?

      Really?

    161. Re:Nooo ! by danielsfca2 · · Score: 1

      IE 5.5.

      not... using any of those frameworks or anything .

      Well that's just disgusting.

      No, seriously. How do you sleep at night?

    162. Re:Nooo ! by jonadab · · Score: 1

      > 1) Shortcuts to folders were treated as files

      Ah, that. I didn't think of it, because it's not specific to open/save dialogs. It's a more general problem with .lnk file support in cross-platform and open-source software.

      To my knowledge, Emacs is the only piece of open-source code that knows how to parse Windows .lnk files more-or-less correctly. (In fairness to the people doing the porting, they don't *have* to parse link files on *nix systems, because symlink semantics are built into the filesystem and/or the API. Still, the .lnk format was introduced in 1996, so you'd think someone would figure out how to support it by now.)

      > 2) (On OS X)

      I haven't used OS X enough to comment on that.

      The last time I had access to an OS X system, getting GTK software to run on it could ONLY be done via the X server, and getting rootless mode to work was a new and esoteric trick most people hadn't tried out yet. (Yeah, it's been a while. The Mac in question was one of those ridiculous-looking malformed-lamp iMacs, which had just come out recently. Adobe software at the time all still required Classic, including Acrobat Reader.)

      So I can really only comment on the PC side of things.

      > 3) no voice control, no tablet stylus support, no
      > touchscreen support (that's universal among all GTK+

      Ah. I've never had the hardware for any of that stuff, so naturally I was blissfully unaware of any problems with it.

      > 4) No open to move, delete, create shortcut, map
      > network drive or any of those other options normal
      > Open/Save dialogs have

      Not can sentence fully this understand I.

      Are you saying you use open and save dialog boxes as a file manager? So, like, if you want to copy some files, you pull up a word processor or something, hit Save As, find the location where the files are that you want to copy, and then, umm, somehow use the dialog box to copy them?

      I was not aware that was even possible. Sounds cumbersome.

      You do know about Windows Explorer (alias My Computer), right?

      Call me weird, but personally I use file open and save dialog boxes for opening and saving.

      > 5) It's been awhile, but I seem to recall it was incapable
      > of accessing FTP servers mapped as drives in Windows,

      If it's mapped as a drive with a letter (the closest analog, on Windows, to mounting it), the software shouldn't have to do anything special to access it. It should work just like accessing any other part of the filesystem. The app shouldn't even have to *know* that it's actually an ftp server (or nfs, or cifs, or whatever). If it's mounted (i.e., has a drive letter), it should Just Work. If it doesn't, that's a bug in the operating system, and a fairly major one.

      > or any network drive that didn't have a drive letter (could
      > be wrong on this one)

      I'll have to try that out at some point and see.

      > 6) And of course BUTT FUGLY

      This comment is too vague to be meaningful.

      --
      Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
    163. Re:Nooo ! by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      I don't care about excuses. If you're going to support Windows, you have to *support* Windows. If you're not going to bother to get the basics right, don't even bother making a Windows download. Not trying to be too harsh, it's just that people always respond with excuses. Bugs me.

      The worst part is that since the bugs are in GTK+, they're in a butt-ton of applications-- but at the same time, a butt-ton of applications can all be fixed in one place! Unfortunately, that one place does not give a flying shit, so it never happens. (Every bug I've filed against GTK+, including most of the pointed-out issues, has been ignored.)

      Ah, that. I didn't think of it, because it's not specific to open/save dialogs. It's a more general problem with .lnk file support in cross-platform and open-source software.

      You've already commented on this, the fact that shortcuts have been around for decades and they're still not supported does not bode well for GTK+.

      The last time I had access to an OS X system, getting GTK software to run on it could ONLY be done via the X server,

      Still true, as of 10.4. Forcing users to use the X11 server is bad enough, but brain-dead bugs like not alphabetizing correctly just make things worse. It's like they wanted to pile crap on top of crap, just in case X11 on Mac wasn't crappy enough already.

      > 4) No open to move, delete, create shortcut, map
      > network drive or any of those other options normal
      > Open/Save dialogs have

      Not can sentence fully this understand I.

      Sorry. I think the word "open" there is supposed to be "option." No clue what happened while I was typing that point... I'm sober, I swear!

      Are you saying you use open and save dialog boxes as a file manager? So, like, if you want to copy some files, you pull up a word processor or something, hit Save As, find the location where the files are that you want to copy, and then, umm, somehow use the dialog box to copy them?

      I was not aware that was even possible. Sounds cumbersome.

      If you're going to support Windows, you have to *support* Windows. You can't say "oh we support Windows, except for the features that 'sound cumbersome'." No, it doesn't work that way... if your download page says this is a Windows application, it needs to support all of Windows.

      That aside, you really like having to leave your application, go to a completely different application, open a few windows, just because you forgot to make a folder for the project before you started? If GNOME *doesn't* have the ability to make new folders in the Open/Save dialog (something that Mac has had since like 1988 or so), that's a much bigger WTF than anything here.

      (I can give a pass on the more advanced features like moving files or mapping network drives. But making folders!?)

      Call me weird, but personally I use file open and save dialog boxes for opening and saving.

      I apologize that you find it cumbersome, and yet that's completely irrelevant to the conversation.

      If it's mapped as a drive with a letter (the closest analog, on Windows, to mounting it), the software shouldn't have to do anything special to access it. It should work just like accessing any other part of the filesystem. The app shouldn't even have to *know* that it's actually an ftp server (or nfs, or cifs, or whatever). If it's mounted (i.e., has a drive letter), it should Just Work. If it doesn't, that's a bug in the operating system, and a fairly major one.

      FTP sites by default don't get drive letters, that's exactly the problem. That feature has also been around for a decade, and is not supported.

      Look, you're dodging the real issue: the real issue is, why the hell did GTK+ write their own Open/Save dialogs instead of using the ones built-in to the OS? They're going way out of their way to make terrible Open/Save dialogs, when Windows itself is willing and able to provide that service for you automatically.

      If GTK

    164. Re:Nooo ! by jonadab · · Score: 1

      > I don't care about excuses.

      The excuses were all about why I was not personally aware of all of the issues you pointed out. Bear in mind, I'm neither a Windows user nor a GTK developer.

      > the fact that shortcuts have been around for decades and
      > they're still not supported does not bode well for GTK+.

      It's not just GTK. Nothing else in the open-source world supports them either, except Emacs. Heck, there's a lot of proprietary Windows-only software that doesn't support them.

      > > The last time I had access to an OS X system, getting GTK
      > > software to run on it could ONLY be done via the X server,
      > Still true, as of 10.4.

      Interesting. I would have guessed something would have happened there in the intervening years. (At least running the X server rootless is a breeze now. Apple fixed that about three versions ago, IIRC.)

      > You can't say "oh we support Windows, except for
      > the features that 'sound cumbersome'."

      Like I said, I was totally unaware that using open/save dialog boxes as a file manager was even possible.

      > But making folders!?

      The GTK open/save dialog *has* that, if I'm not mistaken. There's a "new folder" button right there in the save dialog, to the far right of the directory hierarchy breadcrumb thingies. Above the preview area. (I'm on Debian at the moment, but I'm fairly sure this feature is available on Windows as well.)

      As for copying files, I'm not sure how that would even work. It apparently isn't a very discoverable UI, since I was totally unaware that the Windows native common dialogs did that. (Unless by "copying" you mean Open and then Save As, for each file, one at a time. I've known people who copy files in that fashion, but they were not the sort of people who read slashdot.)

      > FTP sites by default don't get drive letters,

      In the other post you were talking about ones that were "mapped as drives". To me that means they have drive letters. What else would the phrase "mapped as drives" mean, in the context of MS Windows?

      > Look, you're dodging the real issue: the real issue is,
      > why the hell did GTK+ write their own Open/Save dialogs
      > instead of using the ones built-in to the OS?

      Now, that's an interesting question. OpenOffice did the same thing (write their own open/save dialogs), so presumably there's some kind of reason for doing so, but I'm not really sure what it would be. Using the native ones (where they exist) would make sense to me.

      Do the GTK and OpenOffice open/save dialogs provide something that the native Windows ones lack? I can't really think of anything, but I don't have a Windows system handy to look at for comparison right now.

      > GUI styles change. You can't have rectangular grey
      > buttons with a simple diagonal bevel anymore, not in 2010.

      Oh, I think I understand now. You're saying GTK doesn't support the Fisher Price theme in XP or the Aero Glass stuff in Vista. Have I got that about right?

      I didn't know. By the time I install any third-party software on a Windows system, the theme has always already been changed back to Classic (it's nearly the first thing I do). GTK looks right at home.

      But yeah, for users who actually use the new-style UI themes, I can see where an app that didn't support them would look a bit out of place. How did you put it originally? "Like a total alien." That comment makes sense now.

      --
      Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
    165. Re:Nooo ! by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      As for copying files, I'm not sure how that would even work. It apparently isn't a very discoverable UI, since I was totally unaware that the Windows native common dialogs did that. (Unless by "copying" you mean Open and then Save As, for each file, one at a time. I've known people who copy files in that fashion, but they were not the sort of people who read slashdot.)

      Yes, but it's a consistent UI, as right-clicking an icon in an Open/Save dialog has the exact same choices as right-clicking the same icon in Explorer. Thus, you can right-click and Cut/Copy an icon from an Open dialog, move the dialog to another folder, then right-click and Paste the copied icon. That's a perfectly cromulent operation, and consistency is a valuable UI concept as well.

      And again, the real point here is that Windows applications support that, so if you're advertising your application as being for Windows, it needs to support that.

      In the other post you were talking about ones that were "mapped as drives". To me that means they have drive letters. What else would the phrase "mapped as drives" mean, in the context of MS Windows?

      I'm probably just using "mapped as drives" as a shorthand for "shows up as an icon in Explorer." Forget the details, and focus on the important bits: GTK+ Open/Save dialogs don't support shit.

      Now, that's an interesting question. OpenOffice did the same thing (write their own open/save dialogs), so presumably there's some kind of reason for doing so, but I'm not really sure what it would be.

      Javaness, possibly?

      The only reason I can determine to not use the OS-provided services is user-hatred. "Man, I hate users. Let's make a shitty dialog instead of doing the far easier task of using Windows' good dialog!"

      Do the GTK and OpenOffice open/save dialogs provide something that the native Windows ones lack?

      It's been awhile, but nothing I can think of except perhaps the image previews were a bit easier to see. (IIRC, they show in a separate pane instead of you having to set the main icon list to a preview view.) Memory's foggy, though, and that alone isn't a good enough reason to remove the dozens of other things that the standard dialogs do automagically.

      Oh, I think I understand now. You're saying GTK doesn't support the Fisher Price theme in XP or the Aero Glass stuff in Vista. Have I got that about right?

      Yes, actually. If the user sets their color scheme to blue and green, who the fuck are you to tell them it's wrong? Windows has a theme manager like every other OS, if an application doesn't use the theme colors, then it's a bug.

      Again: it does not matter whether you like the Windows feature or not. DOES. NOT. MATTER. The point here is that if you're going to be compatible with Windows, you have to be compatible with Windows. Stop trying to derailing the conversation with things like "haha! Windows XP has bad themes! Haha!!" It's irrelevant, and it's annoying me.

      When in Rome, do as the Romans do. When in Windows, do as Windows does. It's that simple.

      I didn't know. By the time I install any third-party software on a Windows system, the theme has always already been changed back to Classic (it's nearly the first thing I do). GTK looks right at home.

      Wow, either you're using Windows 98 or you're blind. Classic appearance in 2000 and Vista uses gradients in the title bar and a completely difference shade of grey, GTK+ does neither. Plus, GTK+'s buttons are still wrong, even compared to the Windows Classic theme.

    166. Re:Nooo ! by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      Why wouldn't he? As I said I just retired my 1.1GHz Win2K box and replaced it with a circa 2005 AMD Sempron 1.8GHz. Folks shell out a couple of hundred for nettops with single core Atom CPUs when that 1.1GHz ran rings around an Atom. For surfing the web, checking webmail, what is the problem?

      My GF will be down to spend the weekend with me and will take her P4 3.0GHz with a replaced mobo with her when she goes home. For the past 4 weeks she has been using an old office box I had donated to me, a 733MHz P3 with a maxed out 384Mb of RAM, XP Pro, and a Geforce 5200PCI. And you know what? She says it is an adorable little thing and has been quite happy on it! For what she does, play her little Facebook farm game, chat with her friends, check her webmail, surf with Firefox, it works just beautifully. I just turned off unnecessary services and replaced Windows Firewall with Comodo AV/firewall and system restore with Comodo Time Machine and it is a whisper quiet little nettop that does everything she wants to do. So I told her to keep it for a spare that way she won't ever be stuck again without a PC.

      So please don't get hung up on the age of a machine. While the OEMs and MSFT would love nothing more than for you to shitcan your machine every couple of years, working PC repair I've found that a good whitebox or off lease business class will last you many many years of good service with just a little TLC. The only reason I retired the 1.1GHz is the PSU finally died and it is an old HP that won't take a normal PSU. The 1.8GHz Sempron that replaced it is so quiet you can't even tell it is on, doesn't heat up my apartment, and with 1.5Gb of RAM is more than enough for the web. I can tell you that most folks buying these new dual and quad cores have the CPU sitting at less than 2% 99% of the time. They just don't have enough work for them to do. And hell you can go to places like this and buy good off lease machines for under $100. Any of these would be better than an Atom nettop and cheaper to boot.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    167. Re:Nooo ! by jonadab · · Score: 1

      > I'm probably just using "mapped as drives" as a
      > shorthand for "shows up as an icon in Explorer."

      Oh. In the Explorer sidebar thingy on the left, you mean? No wonder I didn't understand. That's not the same thing at all. Explorer (if you haven't turned on Classic Folders) shows icons for several different kinds of things that are not mapped as drives. For example, any CIFS fileshare that you've visited recently may (or may not; I've not been able to figure out the exact criteria used to decide) show up as an icon on the left side of Explorer, but that doesn't mean it's been mapped as a drive. If you right-click it and choose "map as drive" and complete the wizard to do that, it'll be assigned a drive letter.

      However, I've never seen an ftp site show up in Explorer like that. (Perhaps to show up like that the ftp service has to be listed in Active Directory or something? I'm just guessing here. Windows networking isn't really my strong suit.)

      > > You're saying GTK doesn't support the Fisher Price theme in XP...
      > Yes, actually. If the user sets their color scheme to
      > blue and green, who are you to tell them it's wrong?

      Umm, GTK on Windows has supported the user's system colors for a fair while now. It was a little shaky at first (like, back in the GTK 1.x days the installer looked at the system colors and built a GTK theme to match, and then if you changed your system colors you had to reinstall GTK or something to get it updated), but that was years ago. It's been quite solid for a while now.

      > Again: it does not matter whether you like the Windows
      > feature or not. DOES. NOT. MATTER. The point here is
      > that if you're going to be compatible with Windows,
      > you have to be compatible with Windows.

      You seem to be under the impression that I am personally responsible for what GTK does and does not support. I'm just a user, like you, and a system administrator. And as a user, and *especially* as system administrator, my experiences with GTK have been considerably better than my experiences with Windows.

      But you're not interested in another user's perspective, apparently. You just want to hold me personally responsible for everything you don't like.

      > Wow, either you're using Windows 98 or you're blind.

      I'll admit that Windows 98 SE is probably the single version of Windows with which I have the most experience. But I've seen pretty much every major version of Windows you can name, with the notable exception of NT3. Just because I don't use it on *my* workstation doesn't mean I don't know anything about it.

      > Classic appearance in 2000 and Vista uses gradients
      > in the title bar and a completely difference shade
      > of grey, GTK+ does neither.

      Waitasec. I was pretty sure GTK did gradients in the titlebar just like everything else. Let's see...

      Yeah. Screenshot (via Google images):
      http://www.gimpusers.com/images/tutorials/146/1.png

      Is that the kind of "neither" you were talking about?

      Were you using ancient versions of GTK, or just making stuff up?

      --
      Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
  2. Loose the (almost) dead weight by carlhaagen · · Score: 2, Informative

    Leopard (10.5) was released end of october 2007, 2.5 years ago, and 2.5 years is well enough time to let end-users move on and revision their computing. Everyone knows there are 10.4'ers out there still, and even 10.3'ers (may the Universe and the Great Magnet help them), but dragging excess weight is nothing short of a problem akin to shooting oneself in the foot - just take a look at microsoft and their eternal love for backwards compatibility, and all the hell that comes with it in windows.

    1. Re:Loose the (almost) dead weight by Megane · · Score: 1

      2.5 years is less than the maximum length of the Applecare warranty. So you're not going to support the major OS release that came with a computer that's still under warranty? Meanwhile, XP, and in many cases W2K are still supported?

      --
      #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
    2. Re:Loose the (almost) dead weight by icebraining · · Score: 1

      Mozilla is not Apple, it's warranty is irrelevant.

      The thing is, XP and OSX 10.4 are both old, but the userbase of the former is huge, so while it could free resources, dropping support would affect too many people.

    3. Re:Loose the (almost) dead weight by RebelWebmaster · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's discussed in the discussion thread also, but it's a matter of what resources it takes to continue support. In the case of Win2K/XP, maintaining compatibility doesn't require nearly the resources that maintaining 10.4 compatibility does. OSX tends to change a LOT between the various 10.x releases, far more than Windows.

      Also, it's important to note that this is being discussed for the next major release of Firefox - i.e. 3.7 or whatever they end up calling it. If they hit their targets, that won't be out at the earliest until the end of the year. Adding in security updates, 10.4 users wouldn't be left out in the cold until the middle of 2011 at the earliest. It stands to simple reason that the proportion of 10.4 is only going to continue dropping over the next year and a half. Why should Mozilla continue to devoting limited resources to an OS that requires disproportionate resources to support at that point?

    4. Re:Loose the (almost) dead weight by smash · · Score: 1

      Got news for you: software generally has no warranty. Your applecare warranty probably (i didn't bother getting the extended warranty) only covers HARDWARE.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    5. Re:Loose the (almost) dead weight by SillyWilly · · Score: 1

      For the love of all that is holy: it's = it is its = its (possessive)

      --
      Online & Feelin' Fine
    6. Re:Loose the (almost) dead weight by bonch · · Score: 1

      Most Windows users are running XP, but most Mac users are not running Tiger.

    7. Re:Loose the (almost) dead weight by Annorax · · Score: 1

      2.5 years is less than the maximum length of the Applecare warranty. So you're not going to support the major OS release that came with a computer that's still under warranty?

      You missed the point.

      He said that Leopard came out 2.5 years ago. Leopard still supports G3 Macs and is still suported.

      Tiger users have had 2.5 years to migrate from Tiger to Leopard.

      It's Snow Leopard that doesn't run on G3 Macs. Leopard does.

    8. Re:Loose the (almost) dead weight by jpmorgan · · Score: 1

      I don't think that's quite accurate. XP to Vista was a huge change, much more than any 10.x jump I know of. The difference is Apple doesn't care about breaking backward compatibility, whereas Microsoft goes out of their way to keep old software running (even to the extent of emulating old bugs when it detects older software).

      At the end of the day, the choice is Mozilla's... but Apple doesn't go out of their way to make it easy.

    9. Re:Loose the (almost) dead weight by RebelWebmaster · · Score: 1

      You're absolutely right that XP->Vista was a big jump. But XP still has a huge market share, so supporting it remains a given. Windows 2000 support is basically free if XP is being supported anyway, but I'm willing to bet that Mozilla would be willing consider killing Windows 2000 support if circumstances were to change and 2000 became more burdensome to support.

    10. Re:Loose the (almost) dead weight by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Better think again and look at Microsoft's installed base.

    11. Re:Loose the (almost) dead weight by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Windows 2000 support is basically free if XP is being supported anyway

      No, it isn't. The number of applications that stopped supporting Windows 2000 (and Windows XP pre-SP2) is staggering.

      Windows XP is a bad baseline comparison because it was an OS that last far longer than intended. It was scheduled to be replaced in 2003 and the replacement didn't come until 2006/2007. That it continued to be supported an unusually long time has more to do with the delay in its replacement than anything else.

      Microsoft does have a longer overall support path than Apple. But older OSes are made obsolete just about as quickly. Windows 2000 started having application incompatibilities as early as about 2003. Windows 98 lost certain DirectX features in 2002. Windows 95 users had to upgrade to Windows 98 for USB compatibility. Windows 3.1 was mostly ditched by 1996.

      Apple's OS X 10.4 was released more than five years ago. All hardware it originally shipped on supports 10.5. The problem is almost entirely with computers that were four years old when 10.4 was released. We're talking computer hardware from the 10.2 era (and some low-end systems from 10.3's release). These can't be upgraded to 10.5, but nine-plus years is hardly a poor run for software updates, and any users of these systems can continue using their machines for at least a few more years without receiving updates. The computer won't stop working because you're a version or two out of date on some desktop software. Lots of people still use Photoshop CS. Lots of people still use the 3.0 line of Firefox and haven't made the jump to 3.6 yet.

      The fact is that selectively setting the timeline you wish to complain about can be done for anyone. How many computers built in 1993 could even run Windows 98 at all? How useful was Windows 3.1 in 1998?

    12. Re:Loose the (almost) dead weight by RebelWebmaster · · Score: 1

      In my experience, Win2K and XPSP2 are unsupported in a "use at your own risk" way, not a "don't waste your time, it's not going to run" way. Apart from not getting security updates anymore, software that runs on XPSP3 will likely run on Win2K and XPSP2 just fine. That's not necessarily the case between 10.4 and 10.6. As BZ pointed out in one of his comments, Apple removed ATSUI support from 10.6. 10.4 doesn't support Core Text. So in that case, it's essentially impossible to compile an app that can run on both out of the box. Safari gets around it by maintaining two code paths and using compile-time switches to pick one or the other.

    13. Re:Loose the (almost) dead weight by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Technical question: 3.7 won't be ready for Ubuntu 10.4 LTS - Canonical will keep the Firefox they ship patched till April 2013. Would those releases provide a project to stand on for a group that wishes to extend support in Tiger?

    14. Re:Loose the (almost) dead weight by icebraining · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I noticed right after I posted, but didn't think it was relevant to post a correction.

  3. Wait, I don't undersand this... by Cowclops · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'm not a Mac person so I don't keep track of every update, but why is it that OSX 10.4, a version which only came out in 2005 according to Wikipedia, has so much code that prevents Mozilla from trivially continuing to maintain compatibility in Firefox? Does it have something to do with the PPC->Intel switch? The fact that they'd drop support for an OS version thats only 5 years old, when Firefox quite obviously still works on 10 year old Windows 2000, is sort of surprising.

    1. Re:Wait, I don't undersand this... by carlhaagen · · Score: 5, Informative

      Apple moves at a completely different pace when it comes to updates and reworking their OS, compared to Microsoft. The PPC part is just one bit, but Leopard does run on PPC machines, so Firefox will still contain both PPC and x86 code for the OS X version. The problem is more that there were a lot of favorable improvements taking place in 10.5 almost coercing developers to make use of them, combined with lots of API-level stuff from the 10.4 selection going deprecated.

    2. Re:Wait, I don't undersand this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree. If I can get the "Hello World" program to run on every piece of hardware that I have in my house from my new Intel Mac Mini all the way back to my 1980s VAX systems in my basement, why can't good coders have the hardware & OS -dependent stuff in separate files so those of us who choose to have older equipment can keep it running.
      (for the record, I also have a PPC Mac mini running 10.4 as well as a PPC iMac running 10.3...and yes, nobody is forcing me to upgrade so I'll just stop at the last supported version)

    3. Re:Wait, I don't undersand this... by eihab · · Score: 4, Informative

      I'm not a Mac person so I don't keep track of every update, but why is it that OSX 10.4, a version which only came out in 2005 according to Wikipedia, has so much code that prevents Mozilla from trivially continuing to maintain compatibility in Firefox?

      According to the article:

      Adding 10.4 support back to mozilla-central would mean switching back
      to ATSUI from Core Text, switching back to gcc-4.0 from gcc-4.2, and
      doing a bit of porting work for code that has been added to the tree
      since we dropped support for 10.4. Other areas where 10.4 support
      consumes our time, makes our code more complex or error-prone, and/or
      limits our capabilities include complex text input (IME), out-of-
      process plugins, printing, native menus, and Core Animation.
      Furthermore, Apple's upcoming JavaPlugin2 will not support Mac OS X
      10.4.

      Sounds like OS X's API has evolved quite a bit in the last 5 years.

      The weird part in the article was when the Mozilla platform engineer said "Neither Safari nor Chrome have to deal with this". I don't know about Chrome but from Apple's website it looks like Tiger is still supported for Safari 4:

      Tiger System Requirements

      Mac OS X Tiger 10.4.11 and Security Update 2009-002 or later

      --
      If you can't mod them join them.
    4. Re:Wait, I don't undersand this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The weird part in the article was when the Mozilla platform engineer said "Neither Safari nor Chrome have to deal with this". I don't know about Chrome but from Apple's website [apple.com] it looks like Tiger is still supported for Safari 4:

      It's because both Safari and Chrome rely on WebKit for rendering. Mozilla relies on Gecko (their own engine).

    5. Re:Wait, I don't undersand this... by sh00z · · Score: 1

      As an actual impacted user, I can attest that Safari 4 is much faster, and far less freeze/crash-prone than Firefox 3.X on a G4/10.4 machine.

    6. Re:Wait, I don't undersand this... by eihab · · Score: 1

      It's because both Safari and Chrome rely on WebKit for rendering. Mozilla relies on Gecko (their own engine).

      I know that. But WebKit still supports Tiger, or Apple is hacking in backwards compatibility. Either way, it sounds a bit disingenuous to say that Safari doesn't have to deal with Tiger when it clearly does on one level or another.

      --
      If you can't mod them join them.
    7. Re:Wait, I don't undersand this... by BrokenHalo · · Score: 1

      Sounds like OS X's API has evolved quite a bit in the last 5 years.

      Yeah, but in some ways it seems as if Apple has gone out of its way to break some of them. A case in point is the APIs pertaining to their AirPort cards, which with the introduction of Slow Leopard have broken iStumbler and every program like it that I know of, apart from the fairly limited native text-mode airport utility.

      Admittedly, the developers of iStumbler have been seriously dragging their heels over updating their software. Apparently there is a beta available, but my request for a copy went unanswered.

    8. Re:Wait, I don't undersand this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not a fair comparison. iStumbler accesses the AirPort driver directly and it's quite predictable that driver changes would break it from one release to the next. Normal application should stick to public APIs, and Apple keeps deprecated public APIs working for a long, long time.

      Mozilla is whinning because 10.5 brings very nice improvements they want to take advantage of, without worrying about keeping another implementation for older systems.

    9. Re:Wait, I don't undersand this... by Low+Ranked+Craig · · Score: 1

      Because Microsoft keeps a bunch of backward compatible crap in the kernel and the OS, and Apple doesn't. AFAIK you can still run 16-bit apps on Windows 7. Honestly this is one of the reasons I like the Mac. All the deadwood is trimmed on a regular basis. Look at Snow Leopard, they completely deleted support for PPC and guess what? it's significantly faster on the supported machines.

      To me this is a lot of complaining about nothing. I have a iMac G3 400 Mhz that I use as an iTunes server running Leopard. It's not fast, but it works just fine for browsing, etc.

      --
      I still cannot find the droids I am looking for...
    10. Re:Wait, I don't undersand this... by Arcady13 · · Score: 1

      I have a iMac G3 400 Mhz that I use as an iTunes server running Leopard.

      The minimum specifications to install Leopard is a G4 running at 867mhz. How did you install it on a G3/400?

    11. Re:Wait, I don't undersand this... by yuhong · · Score: 1

      Chrome has required Mac OS X 10.5 on an Intel processor as a minimum since the beginning. I still remember people complaining about it in this blog post (despite the fact that it was a software still in *alpha* back then): http://blog.chromium.org/2009/06/danger-mac-and-linux-builds-available.html

    12. Re:Wait, I don't undersand this... by Enahs · · Score: 1

      For various reasons I'm stuck maintaining a building full of machines running Tiger. I can confirm that Safari 4 works just fine in Tiger (in fact, I'm posting this comment in Safari.)

      With the economy improving we're hoping to start phasing out the pieces of software which keep us glued to PPC and OS X 10.4; having said that, we haven't even been completely successful in eradicating OS 8.6 and 9.2.2 yet. :-(

      --
      Stating on Slashdot that I like cheese since 1997.
    13. Re:Wait, I don't undersand this... by Altus · · Score: 1

      The tiger version of web kit isnt being changed though. It works on tiger and the new version only has to support leopard.

      Since the API for web kit hasn't changed a ton its easy to write one browser that works with both the old and the new webkit, but the under the hood differences are more significant. The Mozilla team doesn't want to have to manage their own rendering engine on the older platform. I can understand it. Personally I think 1.4 should still be supported but I understand the decision.

      --

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    14. Re:Wait, I don't undersand this... by BrokenHalo · · Score: 1

      Correction to my post: iStumbler beta now available here.

    15. Re:Wait, I don't undersand this... by Neil+Hodges · · Score: 1

      Actually, you can't run 16-bit applications on 64-bit Windows 7, at least according to Wikipedia:

      16-bit Windows (Win16) and DOS applications will not run on x86-64 versions of Windows due to removal of Virtual DOS Machine subsystem (NTVDM).

    16. Re:Wait, I don't undersand this... by DrXym · · Score: 1
      The fact that they'd drop support for an OS version thats only 5 years old, when Firefox quite obviously still works on 10 year old Windows 2000, is sort of surprising.

      Windows tends to go through very large but very backwards compatible updates every 5 years or so (less from Vista to W7), whereas OS X has a shorter update cycle and doesn't appear to care half as much about BC.

      In terms of programming W2K is little different from Windows 7 especially for a C++ app which is hitting Win32 APIs. Stuff around the periphery might change and there may be performance implications if DirectX is used for some operations. Probably the biggest effort is keeping the chrome up to date because W2K doesn't have uxtheme.dll (the Windows theme engine) so the something somewhere has to work around this. I can see that being reason enough to dump W2K in as well.

    17. Re:Wait, I don't undersand this... by eihab · · Score: 1

      The tiger version of web kit isnt being changed though. It works on tiger and the new version only has to support leopard.

      So, if I'm understanding you correctly, Safari 4+ for Tiger is (or going to be) merely a chrome update without actually updating the rendering engine?

      If that's the case then this is horrible for web developers, I can imagine the headaches of making sure that the website works in Safari 4, only to find out that a client is running 4 on Tiger. At that point good luck explaining the rendering engine differences to them.

      It ought to be that Safari 4 is Safari 4, even if you run it in a toaster.

      Thanks for the information by the way, and please correct me if my understanding is wrong here.

      --
      If you can't mod them join them.
    18. Re:Wait, I don't undersand this... by BZ · · Score: 1

      Microsoft takes backwards compatibility a lot more seriously than Apple does. Supporting both 10.4 and 10.6 well at the same time is somewhat comparable to supporting both Win98 and Vista at the same time (have to use different text rendering APIs, different graphics APIs, etc, etc).

    19. Re:Wait, I don't undersand this... by RebelWebmaster · · Score: 1

      As I understand it, Windows 2000 support comes basically for free with XP support. I would assume that Windows 2000 support will be dropped with XP support, though I'm willing to bet that dropping Windows 2000 support earlier would be considered if a compelling reason were to arise.

    20. Re:Wait, I don't undersand this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Great, since you know so much about OSX development, could you point out some of these "must have" 10.5+ features that Firefox uses? Or are you just talking out of your ass like the majority of apple cheerleaders?

    21. Re:Wait, I don't undersand this... by jpmorgan · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't necessarily say it's a different pace. Apple just doesn't care about backwards compatibility in the slightest and likes to push its users into upgrades, whereas Microsoft commits to long (10+ year) support cycles. Each strategy has its advantages and disadvantages... but this is why Windows will never be as consistent an experience as OS X, and why Apple will never find serious traction in the business sector.

    22. Re:Wait, I don't undersand this... by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Apple moves at a completely different pace when it comes to updates and reworking their OS, compared to Microsoft.

      It's not even the pace. There are typically a lot new features for developers to use in every new Windows release; it's actually quite trivial to write an application that runs only on Win7 if you just look at APIs that are there, and always use whatever is provided instead if rolling out your own.

      The difference is that Apple is much more aggressive about cutting out old APIs, while the ones in Windows tend to stay for the sake of backwards compatibility. It's why you can usually take a Win 3.1 application, compile it for Win7, and it'll work - even though half of the OS functions it calls are marked as "deprecated" by now, and have been for the last 10-15 years they're still there.

    23. Re:Wait, I don't undersand this... by Criton · · Score: 1

      It might be a stretch to call all the changes favorable improvements. OSX was improving until 10.4 but after 10.5 it started to be more bloat vs an actual improvement. I feel Apple sometimes changes API too often and really needs to work on more on making the OS better and faster vs needlessly reinventing the wheel.

    24. Re:Wait, I don't undersand this... by bdash · · Score: 1

      Yes, WebKit still supports Tiger, though some of the newer WebKit features (hardware-accelerated compositing, 3D transforms, etc) aren’t available as they require support from the underlying OS that isn’t present on Tiger.

    25. Re:Wait, I don't undersand this... by bdash · · Score: 1

      The tiger version of web kit isnt being changed though. It works on tiger and the new version only has to support leopard.

      This is simply untrue.

    26. Re:Wait, I don't undersand this... by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      It's why you can usually take a Win 3.1 application, compile it for Win7, and it'll work,

      Forget the compile step - just run the setup.exe on a CD from 1992 and there is a very good chance that it will install and work reasonably well if it is just an ordinary app. You're more likely to have Y2K problems than OS API problems.

      I'm always amazed at how much scientific software is still floating around which is limited to 8.3 filenames on windows - because they're pre-win32.

      I'm not sure if it is still in there, but I know that for quite a while (post win95) you could even launch sidekick in a DOS window and it would actually support it in TSR operation (of course, only within that window). First, that is purely DOS API (which makes windows 3.1 look modern), and it isn't even official/published API at that (TSRs are full of OS hacks and undocumented/internal OS calls).

      On the other hand, even MS probably has trouble getting windows to build these days as a result - I can only imagine how many ancient API behaviors something like Win7 has to support.

      On the other hand, I can't get kdirstat to work at all now that KDE 3.5 is considered a dinosaur. If only somebody wrote a replacement (rumor has it that it is being ported to KDE4).

    27. Re:Wait, I don't undersand this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      why can't good coders have the hardware & OS -dependent stuff in separate files so those of us who choose to have older equipment can keep it running.

      They can keep it in separate files, but eventually it becomes difficult to maintain several different branches of code. Not only thst but you will need to link to different libraries and the compiler version may also impact the build.

    28. Re:Wait, I don't undersand this... by danielsfca2 · · Score: 1

      Heh. Yeah, but even with Win7, basically nobody uses 64-bit windows because it breaks so much crap. So fortunately you can continue to run EDIT.COM and other hilarious old chestnuts that Windows still helpfully includes. And you can have comically-specced systems that ship with 4GB of RAM but can only address 3GB.

  4. Premature by Chris+Lawrence · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is far too premature. Firefox is still supported on Windows 2000, yet Tiger was still shipping on new Mac less than three years ago. Lots of people are still running this on G3 machines that can't upgrade to Leopard. I think this is just too soon.

    1. Re:Premature by Cowclops · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yeah. My girlfriend has a macbook, I have no idea exactly when she bought it, but its a Core2Duo system at like 2ghz and it has Tiger on it. She's not enough of a computer freak to upgrade everything that comes out, she just has an irrational hatred of PCs. If her laptop seems pretty new but only has tiger on it, that means she might have bought it in like... 2007 before Leopard was released. So I guess that means she'd have to upgrade to get Firefox (not that she cares at all).

    2. Re:Premature by Chris+Lawrence · · Score: 1

      Exactly, I have family members in the same boat. You've got people with Macs *still under warrantee* (if they got Applecare) and they won't be able to run the latest version of Firefox without upgrading the OS? Not cool.

    3. Re:Premature by Enleth · · Score: 1

      http://xkcd.com/684/

      Sorry,couldn't resist...

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    4. Re:Premature by PenguSven · · Score: 1

      Exactly, I have family members in the same boat. You've got people with Macs *still under warrantee* (if they got Applecare) and they won't be able to run the latest version of Firefox without upgrading the OS? Not cool.

      Updates for Safari (including v4) are available for OS X 10.4 (Tiger) so what's the big issue?
      If these users aren't upgrading their OS, they probably aren't the sort of people who are particularly bothered about having a specific browser.

      It's not like Firefox is a spectacularly great browser on OS X anyway.

      --
      What is...?
    5. Re:Premature by Nimey · · Score: 1

      She should upgrade anyway - Tiger's no longer getting security updates, and Snow Leopard will only set her back $30.

      --
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      E pluribus sanguinem
    6. Re:Premature by BrokenHalo · · Score: 1

      This is far too premature.

      Normally I would agree, but since my ageing but still perfectly functional 2.16GHz Core2Duo MacBook is beginning to groan occasionally under the load of Firefox running on Snow Leopard, I am inclined to welcome anything that will speed it up. If all that old code is beginning (as Mozilla says) to affect the integrity of the tree as a whole, then it is definitely time to get rid of it.

      I just checked FleaBay, and I didn't have to look far to find copies of Leopard available for $9.00, and of course Snow Leopard is available for not a whole lot more. There is no point whining about not getting security updates on your browser if you aren't keeping your operating system current.

    7. Re:Premature by Enahs · · Score: 1

      If you have an Intel Mac, you can get Snow Leopard for around $30. If you're like us at this office and stuck with PPC for whatever reason, you may need to use Safari now. :-(

      The most underreported thing is that the Mozilla team has actually been pretty nice about keeping Tiger from being obsoleted. A lot of the software we use here stopped supporting Tiger within a couple of months of Panther's release. If you wonder if I lose any sleep over all this outdated software running on production machines...well, I probably should. :->

      --
      Stating on Slashdot that I like cheese since 1997.
    8. Re:Premature by kangsterizer · · Score: 1

      a big difference is that microsoft makes most of windows upwards compatible, or if you prefer, most recent windows versions are backward compatible
      in macosx, apple deprecate and supress funtionality, so you need both code path in your code, which is complex, leads to larger size, bugs, etc etc.

      thus for a developer, its much more interesting to remove the extra code for osx than it is for windows

    9. Re:Premature by BZ · · Score: 1

      > Firefox is still supported on Windows 2000,

      That's because stuff that worked in Windows 2000 mostly still works in Vista or Win7.

      The story is a bit less happy with 10.4 as compared to 10.6.

    10. Re:Premature by RebelWebmaster · · Score: 1

      Firefox 3.6.x, which supports 10.4 just fine, will be getting updates at least until mid-2011. Keep in mind that this entire discussion is about the next release of Firefox, which won't be until the end of the year at the earliest.

    11. Re:Premature by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The time period in question here is not "now." Firefox 3.6 will still be fully supported on 10.4 until about 2011, approximately 6 months after the next major version of Firefox.

    12. Re:Premature by beanyk · · Score: 1

      It's only $30 if she's already running Leopard (10.5). If she's on Tiger (10.4), it's no longer considered an upgrade and will cost $170.

    13. Re:Premature by beanyk · · Score: 1

      According to the Apple website, it's $30 ONLY if you already have Leopard (10.5). Otherwise you have to buy the snow Leopard "Box Set" for $170.

    14. Re:Premature by am+2k · · Score: 1

      Except that this "upgrade" doesn't check for any other version, and there is no other 10.6-box you can buy now except the one for $29...

    15. Re:Premature by ZachPruckowski · · Score: 1

      Don't forget that this is all talking about a end-2010 Firefox release. Assuming that release is on time (not a safe assumption given Mozilla's history), it's still 18 months before Mozilla drops support for the last Firefox to support 10.4. That'd be 4 years since Leopard came out.

    16. Re:Premature by joemite · · Score: 1

      Firefox is still support on Windows 2000 because Microsoft refuses to remove anything from their API. Which explains why Windows has grown exponentially over the last couple of decades.

    17. Re:Premature by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      Lots of people are still running this on G3 machines that can't upgrade to Leopard.

      So, don't upgrade Firefox?

      I mean, 10.4 doesn't get any security updates anymore so the machine is at risk anyway. Those people have already gotten burned by Apple.

      Fedora PPC is the only secure upgrade path, AFAIK.

      --
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    18. Re:Premature by hmar · · Score: 1

      Part of the problem is that 10.5 brought a lot of under the hood improvements, but not much that could be seen by the end user. Until developers begin to phase out 10.4 support, those older machines running 10.4 will, for the most part, continue to run 10.4 because 10.5 didn't bring enough noticeable enhancement to justify the time and expense involved in upgrading the OS.

    19. Re:Premature by danielsfca2 · · Score: 1

      If these users aren't upgrading their OS, they probably aren't the sort of people who are particularly bothered about having a specific browser.

      It's not like Firefox is a spectacularly great browser on OS X anyway.

      THIS. Seriously, this, combined with the fact that this upcoming 10.4-dropping version of firefox won't make it out until 2011 and security updates wouldn't stop for the 10.4 version until mid 2011 make this a retarded story that I am seriously ashamed to even be reading. (Yes, i know i'm a moron for posting on it after having coming to this realization.)

    20. Re:Premature by danielsfca2 · · Score: 1

      Lol. if you read the story you would know that Apple is not involved in this at all. There were old APIs, Mozilla used them, then Apple made shiny new way better APIs 3 years ago, Mozilla decided to use those too, and now they don't want to bother anymore with maintaining the old code that uses the old (still supported) APIs.

      If you think that Microsoft never introduces new APIs that make things better for developers, I doubt you have ever developed for Microsoft. They totally introduce cool new APIs. If you're going to have a living product this is a problem everyone faces on every platform. Sure, abandonware will stop working after fewer years on a constantly-upgraded Mac than it will on a constantly-upgraded Windows box. But any *non-dead* product has to choose from one of these options:

      A. Never use new APIs. Your app will start to look clunky after a while and might not perform well. An example would be using GDI instead of DirectX for a game because you don't want to break Win 3.1 support.

      B. Use new APIs when they make your job easier, but still do all the work of using the old APIs forever. Not only are you now actually making your job harder than if you did choice (A), but now your app becomes a bloated and tangled mess and has branching logic everywhere to handle every version of the OS.

      C. Use new APIs when they make your job easier. Keep doing the work of using the old APIs for a little while, then prune out that stuff after a couple years when adoption of the new OS picks up. Use the time you save to actually improve your app.

      So are you blaming Apple for not inventing those new APIs sooner? Because I guess that would be nice if they could have just written every API we have now, into 10.0 and shipped that 10 years ago. Or are you blaming Apple for daring to work on making better APIs? Again, they didn't even pull support out for those APIs. Nobody's stopping Mozilla from continuing to code to them. Mozilla is just smart enough to see when something better has been invented and use it!

      If you're not making any new cool APIs, I don't see the point in bothering to work on an operating system at all. Besides doing security patches and designing new skins (see Windows Vista).

  5. Minor version by Hatta · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'm surprised that so much version specific code is needed to support a minor release of the OS. Why is that?

    We still have a computer running 10.2 hooked up to a microscope. It still works just fine, and I'm hesitant to upgrade without a real good reason. It would be really nice to continue to get updates for Firefox.

    --
    Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    1. Re:Minor version by ColdWetDog · · Score: 4, Informative

      I'm surprised that so much version specific code is needed to support a minor release of the OS. Why is that?

      With Apple and OS X "point releases" (10.x) are not minor version changes. They include major shifts in APIs and decrements of complete frameworks (ie. Carbon to Cocoa). Apple operates on a different timing and structure scheme than Microsoft. Neither necessarily better or worse, but different.

      If your 10.2 machine works for your application and doesn't need any upgraded software for fulfill it's purpose in the grand scheme of things, just leave it alone.....

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    2. Re:Minor version by smash · · Score: 1

      New and better APIs that make coding easier and less bug prone.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    3. Re:Minor version by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      So, you already running a 2.x release. 3.0 is not supported on 10.2/10.3.

      10.x releases of OS X are not minor updates. If in doubt look at Ars Technica's reviews (linked on is for 10.6, it liks to the ones for previous versions of OS X). Since 10.2 OS X has migrated to 64 bit, introduced Core Image/Data/Video/Audio/Animation, switched from gcc 3.3 (which barely understands C++) to 4.2, introduced FSEvents, introduced Application signing, and process sandboxing.

      I hope they get rid of 10.5 real soon, so they can use Grand Central Dispatch and OpenCL (perhaps finally making Firefox as fast as Safari and Chrome).

    4. Re:Minor version by Angostura · · Score: 1

      Because a .x release in OS X land is actually a major release.

    5. Re:Minor version by Internal+Modem · · Score: 1

      Firefox dropped support for 10.3 long ago, not to mention 10.2. You are not running the current version of Firefox.

    6. Re:Minor version by BrokenHalo · · Score: 1

      We still have a computer running 10.2 hooked up to a microscope.

      You gotta love these single-tasking machines. I've still got a machine running DOS 3.1 hooked up to a milk pasteuriser. It "just works" without fail, and I can swap out components (or the whole machine if I have to) within a few minutes if anything starts to look a bit flaky.

    7. Re:Minor version by bonch · · Score: 1

      I'm surprised that so much version specific code is needed to support a minor release of the OS. Why is that?

      It's explained in the article. Mozilla would lose things like CoreText, GCC 4.2, out of process plug-ins, and more by supporting Tiger. Let it be an example to all anti-Apple trolls who claim OS X releases are overpriced little service packs.

  6. Good decision. by schmidt349 · · Score: 1, Insightful

    It's foolish to continue supporting obsolete platforms until the end of time -- Windows developers take notice. Besides, very few people are put out in the cold by this decision -- 10.5 will run on most Macs (with the exception of iBook G3s) from the end of 2002 onward. I think between 5 and 7 years of backward compatibility in hardware is good enough.

    Those of you still running Tiger on your G3s will have to switch to Opera 10, and considering how slooooow those ancient machines are with the modern Web you ought to be using Opera anyhow.

    1. Re:Good decision. by Albanach · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's foolish to continue supporting obsolete platforms until the end of time

      And as many posts above demonstrate, 10.4 is hardly obsolete, having come installed on new Macs purchased two and a half years ago. The official upgrade cost is around $100. 17% of the cost of a new Mac Mini.

      So the operating system is in wide use by people faced with a pretty substantial upgrade cost.

    2. Re:Good decision. by psergiu · · Score: 2, Informative

      Leopard won't install on anything with a cpu slower than 867 Mhz so the following machines are forced to remain on 10.4 Tiger:

      - Dual 800Mhz G4 Powermacs and slower.
      - All G4 cubes
      - All G3 iMacs and most of the iLamp G4 iMacs
      - All G3 iBooks, a some G4 iBooks.
      - Almost all Titanium Powerbooks

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    3. Re:Good decision. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Strictly speaking not all G3 iBooks have processors slower than 867Mhz (there was a 900Mhz G3 iBook, I bought one). Clock speed is not the sole reason Leopard doesn't support the G3.

    4. Re:Good decision. by Eravau · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "Official" upgrade cost (for this OS that came with my new computer just over 2 years ago) may be around $100... but if I upgrade from 10.4 to 10.5... then I have to buy a new version of Adobe Creative Suite. That makes the "unofficial" upgrade cost somewhere around $1,900... 300% of the cost of a new Mac Mini.

    5. Re:Good decision. by melikamp · · Score: 0, Troll

      The official upgrade cost is around $100. 17% of the cost of a new Mac Mini.

      That is hardly Mozilla's problem. People who get suckered into buying a proprietary OS have to realize that they will have to buy every upgrade if they are to run the latest software.

    6. Re:Good decision. by smash · · Score: 1
      Compared to the cost of a copy of Windows Vista or 7, which for an equivalent runs around 300 bucks.

      Sounds about right. If you don't want to pay for operating systems, then why the fuck buy a mac in the first place? Running Linux or BSD is cheaper on a cheap pc clone.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    7. Re:Good decision. by smash · · Score: 1

      Or they could... you know... run safari... or opera...

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    8. Re:Good decision. by PenguSven · · Score: 1

      Those of you still running Tiger on your G3s will have to switch to Opera 10, and considering how slooooow those ancient machines are with the modern Web you ought to be using Opera anyhow.

      Or they could just, ya know, use Safari 4. Firefox and Opera are both pretty crummy examples of good Mac software.

      --
      What is...?
    9. Re:Good decision. by Bauguss · · Score: 1

      uhm.. I bought a mac 3 years ago and it runs snow leopard just fine. Why not just upgrade the OS? (snow leopard was what 30 bucks?) I would also like to ask, why not just fork the code to a Tiger Version. Firefox is pretty damn stable so only security updates would need to be applied to that version. Otherwise it could just sit in an archive for folks still running Tiger.

      Another question. Would removing that old bit of code make my Firefox any faster or smaller? If so then I vote yes.

    10. Re:Good decision. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is not the developers job to make your life easier. It is their job to provide whatever service they feel will best serve the most people while profiting them (monetarily, emotionally, whatever).

      Adobe isn't releasing a DOS version of photoshop- though I still have dos running on a few old boxes. You may claim that this OS was far more recent, but all that matters to the developer is the cost/profit ratio. They have no obligation to help your girlfriend or grandmother.

      If an OS wants to reinvent the wheel every few years it has to recognize that not every developer is going to bother to keep up, or program things in retro to support what will inevitably become an obsolete user base.

    11. Re:Good decision. by BrokenHalo · · Score: 1

      10.4 is hardly obsolete... The official upgrade cost is around $100.

      Any hardware support you might have had from Apple must have evaporated by now, so there is little or no point in going through "official" channels. EBay is a useful place to start. Alternatively, you can buy an official Snow Leopard "upgrade" copy for $29 and do a clean install off it (assuming your machine isn't a ppc).

    12. Re:Good decision. by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      http://www.amazon.com/Microsoft-Windows-Home-Premium-Upgrade/dp/B002DHLUWK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=software&qid=1265647046&sr=8-1

      Where do you guys get this $300 number? I keep seeing it on Slashdot... are you just assuming that Windows 7 costs the same as previous Windows versions? Are you assuming that people are buying the "new install" copy even though they're just going to upgrade? ($179, BTW, not even close to $300.)

    13. Re:Good decision. by Lemmy+Caution · · Score: 1

      I know a big group of people who are going to be upset: Zotero users.

    14. Re:Good decision. by Enahs · · Score: 1

      I work in an office where we do page layout in Quark 4.11. Yes, 4.11. The previous company who owned us was interested mainly in merging and acquiring, and the current company snatched us up in time for the worst recession since the Great Depression. I have no idea when they're planning on upgrading, or even what their plan is (please let it be InDesign, please let it be InDesign, please let it be InDesign...) but on the plus side it's the last bit of Classic Mode software we need to get rid of in our production department. :-P

      So...yeah, we're pretty much stuck with Tiger for the foreseeable future. Guess I'll be using Safari and Opera. *sigh*

      --
      Stating on Slashdot that I like cheese since 1997.
    15. Re:Good decision. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why not just upgrade the OS?

      Because the $30 upgrade is supposed to be for existing Leopard users. To use it as an upgrade from Tiger may be an illegal breach of copyright law.

    16. Re:Good decision. by Tak_1 · · Score: 1

      No. Just no. My last MacBook Pro came with Tiger, and I installed install Snow Leopard from the $29 "Update" disk. The idea you have to have the $129 Tiger to Snow Leopard upgrade pack if you are running Tiger is simply wrong. That's old news. The only point of the $129 update pack was getting compatible iLife, a big bundle of things I personally don't use and saw no need to pay for. So for the people screaming that having to update is UNFAIR! If you have an Intel Mac, its $29. Not the end of the world. Whats that? six cups of coffee? A moderately priced dinner for two? And if you are running Power PC more than seven years old, its time to get a new computer. I wish half of you had fussed this badly when Microsoft made people throw out computers that were brand new and supposedly "Vista Capable" but weren't. I have a PPC "media machine" in my bedroom from 2003 running Leopard, and its just fine. How long is Apple supposed to keep supporting decade old hardware? If you are running anything less than a midrange G4 your machine is more a curio than a tool anyway. Where are the "OMG Windows Seven isn't supported on my PC from 2003" people? If any one had been arguing the lack of support for eight year old Microsoft kit, people would be laughing themselves sick.

    17. Re:Good decision. by Tak_1 · · Score: 1

      Leopard on a Dual core 500. I had to max the ram, and update the Video card a bit. "GeForce 4 from eBay" It was easy. Proof, and instructions below.

      http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3398/3620701745_cb0753c18c_o.png

      To install Leopard on an "unsupported" G4 clocked under 867 MHz:

      1. Reboot your Mac and hold down the Cmd-Opt-O-F keys until you get a white screen with black text. This is the Open Firmware prompt.

      2. Insert the Mac OS X Leopard Install DVD.

      3. Type the following lines exactly as shown below into the Open Firmware prompt. Be mindful of capitalization, spaces, zeros, etc. If the command is properly typed and understood, Open Firmware will display "ok" at the end of each line after you hit "return". What these lines do is set the CPU speed reported by Open Firmware to OS X as an 867 MHz G4 processor system. They then continue the boot from the DVD drive.

      For single CPUs, use the following three lines:


      For dual CPUs, use the following five lines:

      dev /cpus/PowerPC,G4@0 d# 867000000 encode-int " clock-frequency" property dev /cpus/PowerPC,G4@1 d# 867000000 encode-int " clock-frequency" property boot cd:,\\:tbxi

      4. Continue the install normally.

      Not the end of the world.

    18. Re:Good decision. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Leopard will install on a G4 slower than 867 MHz, it's requires burning a new install disk and was mainly done for iLamp support. It won't install on ANY G3, even if over 867 MHz. I remember reading a forum quite a while ago, some of the earliest builds of Leopard would run on a G3 but support was dropped. Too old.

    19. Re:Good decision. by AusIV · · Score: 1

      Any hardware support you might have had from Apple must have evaporated by now,

      If you bought a 3 year warranty shortly before Leopard came out you still have 6-8 months left on your warranty.

    20. Re:Good decision. by didroe84 · · Score: 1

      An apples to apples (no pun intended) comparison would incorporate the Adobe Creative Suite price into the cost of the Mac Mini as well.

    21. Re:Good decision. by jo_ham · · Score: 1

      If you have an Intel Mac, the "official" upgrade cost is $29.

    22. Re:Good decision. by jo_ham · · Score: 1

      And those who are suckered into installing Linux will have to realise they can't use FCP, the Creative Suite or Logic.

      (/troll)

    23. Re:Good decision. by BZ · · Score: 1

      Apple's normal security update cycle seems to be that they stop doing security updates to an OS about 2.5 years after last shipping it (which happens to correspond to when they start shipping the next+1 OS; in this case 10.6). They dropped 10.3 support pretty much when 10.5 came out, and that was also about 2.5 years after 10.4 appeared.

    24. Re:Good decision. by Albanach · · Score: 1

      No it is not:

      http://store.apple.com/us/product/MAC_OS_X_SNGL

      "Snow Leopard is an upgrade for Leopard users and requires a Mac with an Intel processor."

      The official cost to upgrade from Tiger is the Mac Box Set at $169.

      Just because a different upgrade works, doesn't mean you end up with a legally licensed copy of 10.6.

    25. Re:Good decision. by Xyde · · Score: 1

      It runs on that older hardware just fine, it's just the installer won't have anything to do with it. There are a few ways around it; I've had it running on a 400mhz titanium powerbook.

  7. How can I upgrade? by The+Flymaster · · Score: 5, Interesting

    So, where can I get a guaranteed legal version of Leopard? I've got a G4 Powerbook that I never upgraded, and it seems that Apple doesn't sell 10.5 anymore.

    1. Re:How can I upgrade? by jimicus · · Score: 5, Informative

      I called up my local Apple store with exactly this question. They said "Come in and buy a retail copy of 10.6, we'll burn you a disc with 10.5 on".

      YMMV.

    2. Re:How can I upgrade? by The+Flymaster · · Score: 1

      Hm. That sounds workable. I'll call around.

    3. Re:How can I upgrade? by Fujisawa+Sensei · · Score: 1

      What City?

      All the bozos here in Atlanta/Lennox said was: "Try Amazon", and that was months ago.

      --
      If someone is passing you on the right, you are an asshole for driving in the wrong lane.
    4. Re:How can I upgrade? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In my experience, if you buy a copy of [current version] OS X from the local Apple store they will give you a burned CD or DVD copy of [old version] OS X upon request. I may be wrong, but I was told by the local store that it was an official Apple policy that allowed them to do this. As long as you've newly bought a license of some OX version, you should be good to go.

      Barring that (maybe your local Apple vendor sucks), buy a current version license and then get an older one from some other source, and don't feel guilty about it.

    5. Re:How can I upgrade? by noidentity · · Score: 1

      There's always Camino, which runs more smoothly than Firefox anyway, and has older builds for Mac OS X 10.3 down to 10.1, and Classilla if you're running Mac OS Classic.

    6. Re:How can I upgrade? by Midnight+Thunder · · Score: 1

      Try these guys: http://www.apple.com/retail/lenoxsquare/ if they can't help, then I am not sure who can?

      --
      Jumpstart the tartan drive.
    7. Re:How can I upgrade? by jschen · · Score: 1

      When I tried to obtain OS X 10.5 last November (buying a replacement for a dead computer running 10.3, some known software compatibility problems in 10.6), my local Apple store confirmed that the latest iMacs will run 10.5, but very apologetically told me that they no longer carried any OS X 10.5 discs (at any price). Admittedly, I needed it THAT DAY. They figured that they would have been able to help if I could wait a few days. It ended up possible for me to work around the problems in 10.6 (none of them show stoppers), but not everyone is in so fortunate a situation if a computer decides to die right after an Apple upgrade cycle.

      As much as I like my Macs, it's a little absurd that older OS versions become virtually unobtainable immediately after replacements come out. Give us at least a few months of overlap.

    8. Re:How can I upgrade? by dn15 · · Score: 1

      So, where can I get a guaranteed legal version of Leopard? I've got a G4 Powerbook that I never upgraded, and it seems that Apple doesn't sell 10.5 anymore.

      I'd look for one posted on Craigslist, or even post a "wanted" ad of your own. That way before you buy you can see the media firsthand and verify it's a factory disc and not a burned copy. Just make sure you get a regular retail copy -- ie. not the gray restore disc that came with a specific Mac. Those typically refuse to install on anything but the model it came with.

    9. Re:How can I upgrade? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ebay, about $30 for sealed retail copies.

    10. Re:How can I upgrade? by Enahs · · Score: 1

      http://www.amazon.com/Mac-OS-Version-10-5-6-Leopard/dp/B000FK88JK

      Amazon has a list of retailers who sell 10.5.6. I'm sure you can find other sources. One good place to start a search for older Mac stuff is http://lowendmac.com/

      --
      Stating on Slashdot that I like cheese since 1997.
    11. Re:How can I upgrade? by RebelWebmaster · · Score: 1

      Except Camino is based off Gecko as well, making it equally prone to being left out of future security/stability updates.

    12. Re:How can I upgrade? by mchugh · · Score: 1, Informative

      I called up my local Apple store with exactly this question. They said "Come in and buy a retail copy of 10.6, we'll burn you a disc with 10.5 on".

      YMMV.

      I just bought a retail 10.5 disc from Apple (had to call their support number, they don't sell it on their website) to upgrade a G4 PowerBook. If I'd known this I'd have bought the retail 10.6, taken the burnt 10.5, and upgraded my wife's MBP from 10.5 to 10.6 for the same price.

      crap.

    13. Re:How can I upgrade? by vaporland · · Score: 1

      That is a good deal! Leopard was $99 and Snow Leopard is $29. However, burning Leopard takes a DL DVD, and when you burn this yourself, you probably won't have the Boot Camp tools for Windows ...

      --
      Ask Me About... The 80's!
    14. Re:How can I upgrade? by wal9001 · · Score: 1

      I believe the official solution in your case is the Mac Box Set, which gets you 10.6, iLife, and iWork for $130, the price of previous 10.x updates.

    15. Re:How can I upgrade? by Fujisawa+Sensei · · Score: 1

      Try these guys: http://www.apple.com/retail/lenoxsquare/ [apple.com] if they can't help, then I am not sure who can?

      Those were the guys who said to check Amazon.

      --
      If someone is passing you on the right, you are an asshole for driving in the wrong lane.
    16. Re:How can I upgrade? by The+Flymaster · · Score: 1

      No, 10.6 won't run on a G4. Hence the question.

    17. Re:How can I upgrade? by freedumb2000 · · Score: 1

      Installing from USB also works pretty well, albeit only at USB 1.1 speed.

    18. Re:How can I upgrade? by Midnight+Thunder · · Score: 1

      Those were the guys who said to check Amazon.

      Any they call themselves geniuses - oh well.

      --
      Jumpstart the tartan drive.
    19. Re:How can I upgrade? by ThunderThor53 · · Score: 1

      Apple does not support 10.6 for G3s. The last version to support G3s is 10.4. In addition, 10.5 only supports G4s that run at 867 MHz or faster. I believe that there are workarounds to these restrictions, but I've never looked into them.

      For an Intel processor, the official Apple answer to upgrade from 10.4 to 10.6 is to buy a copy of the Mac Box Set, which is $169, and includes 10.6, iWork, and iLife. That being said, the 10.6 upgrade DVD will directly upgrade 10.4 to 10.6, saving $140 if you're not interested in iWork or iLife.

    20. Re:How can I upgrade? by Ed+Avis · · Score: 1

      Yes, that's the problem here. You can't buy 10.5 from the Apple stores any more - they will tell you to get it on Ebay, where it costs up to a hundred dollars. Still, anyone who uses a Mac has to accept the fact that when uncle Steve tells you to spend money, you spend it. I've noticed that free software I'd like to install on my girlfriend's iMac G5 has started dropping support for OS 10.4, so I'll probably get the upgrade.

      --
      -- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
  8. exorcise? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    excise

    1. Re:exorcise? by mmkkbb · · Score: 1

      No, turns out the code left in there to support Tiger is of supernatural origin. They had to give commit access to a priest.

      --
      -mkb
    2. Re:exorcise? by noidentity · · Score: 1

      excise

      How do you know the old code they were removing wasn't an evil spirit or malign influence?

  9. Firefox already had problems by sh00z · · Score: 2, Informative

    My "recreational" computer is a G4 Powerbook running 10.4, and I've found that realistically, Mozilla stopped caring over a year ago. Even chatting in Facebook is an exercise in futility. Switching to Safari 4 was a no-brainer.

    1. Re:Firefox already had problems by Bigbutt · · Score: 1

      Yep, me too. My Powerbook is my workhorse to support my table-top gaming. I'm running mysql and apache with php with several wikis and php scripts.

      I've been having so many problems with Firefox crashing and increasing the temp of the powerbook I switched back to Safari 4 a few months ago. I have to deal with ads but at least my browser doesn't crash any more.

      [John]

      --
      Shit better not happen!
    2. Re:Firefox already had problems by Eravau · · Score: 1

      I'm also running 10.4 and the latest Firefox... but I'm not feeling the pain... even chatting in Facebook. I'm on an Intel Mac Mini, though... so maybe it's a G4 thing.

    3. Re:Firefox already had problems by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Turning off a particular precompiled code thingie in about:config fixed the horrific facebook lag issues I was seeing. The Moz mod posting in the discussion warned us not to do that though, on the grounds that we'd forget to reset it when the issue was fixed

    4. Re:Firefox already had problems by sh00z · · Score: 1

      Good to know, thanks.

  10. Phasing out support for 10.4? I still run 10.3! by The+Breeze · · Score: 2, Insightful

    A shame. I know people who bought nice new Macbooks running 10.4 in 2008, and they won't want to upgrade their OS after just over a year. I have a 700 mhz ibook that is great to travel with and does everything I want it to, but is slowly becoming insecure because it's gradually becoming unsupported. Yet it runs fine, and I'd cheerfully stick with it if I could.

    Buy, buy, buy...what a pain. How hard is it to just keep up on security patches for old browsers?

  11. For all those PPCs out there by hellraizer · · Score: 1, Informative

    they can always install ubuntu (or whatever linux distro) on their laptops/computers and continue to receive updates for firefox or am i wrong ?

    1. Re:For all those PPCs out there by dadragon · · Score: 2, Informative

      You're certainly not wrong. I started using Linux on my old PowerBook to get Java 6. However, Linux on PPC is not supported all that well on most distributions. Fedora and Debian are about the best. Ubuntu has a port, but apparently it's not officially supported. I use Debian.

      --
      God save our Queen, and Heaven bless The Maple Leaf Forever!
    2. Re:For all those PPCs out there by hellraizer · · Score: 0

      Long Live Debian ... :) Hurrayyyyyy

    3. Re:For all those PPCs out there by psergiu · · Score: 0

      Grandma' won't be able to install Ubuntu on her 10.4 running G3 iMac. And even if the grandson does the deed, she won't know how to use it or update it (Firefox on OSX updates automatically).

      --
      1% APY, No fees, Online Bank https://captl1.co/2uIErYq Don't let your $$$ sit in a no-interest acct.
    4. Re:For all those PPCs out there by hellraizer · · Score: 1

      right... does Grandma know how to install OSX ??? I Belive this to be a myth... granma will call tech support even to update Firefox .... wanna bet? The whole FUD thing is quite ridiculous... If grandma is capable of installing OSX and updating firefox i bet she will be able to install Ubuntu and update Firefox ... I don't get what is there SO dificult in linux that grandma will not be able to use it ?

    5. Re:For all those PPCs out there by tepples · · Score: 1

      does Grandma know how to install OSX ???

      Steps to install Mac OS X:

      1. Buy a Mac.

      Steps to install Ubuntu:

      1. Buy a computer with Windows.
      2. Try to install Ubuntu from the live CD.
      3. Find that the computer that you bought contains hardware from a company that refuses to deal with the free software community.
      4. Return the computer, buy another, and pay for return shipping, restocking, and shipping.
      5. Install from the Ubuntu live CD.

      Mac OS X has the advantages of 1. preinstalled machines sold in retail stores and major online retailers and 2. less hardware variability.

    6. Re:For all those PPCs out there by icebraining · · Score: 1

      If you install Firefox from the repos, it's dead easy making it auto-upgrade.

      apt-get install cron-apt

    7. Re:For all those PPCs out there by hellraizer · · Score: 1

      remember ... granny already has a Mac ... the point of the conversation being ... update your mac :P or rather ... install software on your mac that gives you freedom to choose how you spend your money

    8. Re:For all those PPCs out there by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      > Mac OS X has the advantages of 1. preinstalled machines sold in retail stores and major online retailers and 2. less hardware variability. ...which makes them a nice slow moving target for other operating systems.

      It's funny how that works. Every other operating system benefits from the same things that MacOS benefits from.

      Grandma could also ask the same person that pushed her into a Mac. They might even
      be aware that you can get a NEW system for $200 that would be more than adequate
      for Granny's needs. You could leave the preloaded Windows on there or install Linux
      (which runs just dandy on that hardware).

      Or she can walk into the Apple store and they could try to sell her a Mac Pro.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    9. Re:For all those PPCs out there by smash · · Score: 1
      You haven't installed OS X before have you. I broke my first Mac OS last year (broken iphone dev tools on leopard) and its basically a case of.
      • insert cd
      • click OK to install
      • select to keep your data or not
      • make coffee

      If you can't reinstall OS X, you're likely unable to locate, download and install firefox...

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    10. Re:For all those PPCs out there by Enahs · · Score: 1

      Yeah, that works great for running all the Mac-specific stuff.

      Honestly, if you can run Ubuntu, you can probably spring for a cheap PC too. Some aspects of running Linux on a PPC tend to be non-trivial, especially that whole thing of HFS+ not being resizeable unless you're running on an Intel Mac with a GUID partitioning scheme.

      --
      Stating on Slashdot that I like cheese since 1997.
    11. Re:For all those PPCs out there by hellraizer · · Score: 1

      yes i have... have YOU installed Ubuntu Lately ??? Cant see that much of a diference

    12. Re:For all those PPCs out there by palegray.net · · Score: 1

      I own two Macs. They're great machines. That said, have you actually installed Ubuntu on anything in the last couple of years? Even on several brand new laptops (which are typically the worst for hardware support), I've had zero issues with compatibility. Either you're trying to spread FUD, or you're talking about something you know nothing about.

    13. Re:For all those PPCs out there by tepples · · Score: 1

      They might even be aware that you can get a NEW system for $200 that would be more than adequate for Granny's needs. You could leave the preloaded Windows on there or install Linux (which runs just dandy on that hardware).

      Might that $200 Windows box whose hardware is all supported in a popular desktop Linux distribution be the Acer Aspire Revo, or were you thinking of another model?

      she can walk into the Apple store and they could try to sell her a Mac Pro.

      The Apple dealer I've been in (Signature Mac, Fort Wayne, Indiana) was pushing iMac, not Mac Pro.

    14. Re:For all those PPCs out there by tepples · · Score: 1

      That said, have you actually installed Ubuntu on anything in the last couple of years?

      I installed Ubuntu 8.04 on an Asus Eee PC a little over a year ago. WLAN was broken, sound was broken, and suspend was broken, but I was able to get WLAN and sound working with a custom kernel. After I replaced the bundled SSD with a much bigger and faster SSD by RunCore, I installed Ubuntu 9.04. It cleared up WLAN, sound, and suspend out of the box, but it broke sound in programs that use the Allegro library. But SANE still lists the make and model of my flatbed scanner as unsupported, and I've read stories of video cards having no acceleration with free drivers and poor stability with non-free drivers; for example, ATI's proprietary driver doesn't support fast user switching because it doesn't support multiple X servers running at once.

    15. Re:For all those PPCs out there by palegray.net · · Score: 1

      I stand corrected with regard to the Eee PC. That said, I still haven't had any other issues with mainstream HP, Dell, or Toshiba laptops. The scanner support bit I get as well for your case, but I haven't hit that issue on anything personally.

      Especially for the use case indicated on the G3, I think it's safe to say everything is going to "just work."

    16. Re:For all those PPCs out there by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ubuntu PowerPC *IS* officially supported. It gets all the same packages and security updates as regular Ubuntu.

      https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PowerPCDownloads

      The only difference is that you cannot pay Canonical for a commercial assistance.

    17. Re:For all those PPCs out there by jo_ham · · Score: 1

      Then she does this:

      1. Put Mac OS X DVD into the slot (she knows where to put the disk in right?)

      2. Finder window opens with a large icon that says "Install Mac OS X" - double click.

      3. OS X prompts for a reboot.

      4. OS X installs (the upgrade option is selected by default, more advanced users may want to go for a nuke and pave, or an archive and install as required).

    18. Re:For all those PPCs out there by jo_ham · · Score: 1

      If the Apple Store employees are "going to try to sell her a Mac Pro" (presumably this is an attempt to make it look like Apple likes to push really expensive options on people that they don't need, even though they sell cheaper computers that would suit granny), then the PC salesman in Best Buy tries to sell her an Alienware PC with Windows 7 Ultimate Business Xtreeme Advance with dual graphics cards and at least three different colours of fluorescent lights in the case.

      Either way, if she wanders into a computer store without asking someone in her family "what do I need?" so she at least has a vague idea of what might be too much for her, or takes someone with her, then caveat emptor.

      However, I would argue that on the whole, Apple Store and PC store employees don't go around ruthlessly ripping off old ladies - they're not used car dealerships.

    19. Re:For all those PPCs out there by jo_ham · · Score: 1

      Ubuntu 8.10 did work on my 15" PB G4, but I had to hunt around for the PPC build. While it did work adequately, it ran so much hotter than OS X. I put this down to not fully understanding (due to not making the hardware) the fan controller system, which was a lot more "grainy" than in OS X. It seemed that Ubuntu could run the fans low, medium and high, rather than gradually changing the speed or choosing a speed inbetween.

      I think the graphics driver also had something to do with it - the GPU got *really* toasty running Ubuntu. I also had to manually start it each time - if I let it boot on its own, the screen would go blank and then very gradually start to change to red (over about 10 minutes) and never get to the login prompt. If I booted to the prompt and manually started it up (with whatever command it is that you use - I forget exactly), but it would then load up perfectly.

      I did quite like it though, and it played all the music I had in my iTunes library, if a little choppily occasionally - I was expecting it to choke on some of the AAC stuff, but it worked out of the box, so to speak.

    20. Re:For all those PPCs out there by Trepidity · · Score: 1

      I've toyed with this on and off, but using Linux on a PowerBook with a one-button trackpad isn't that pleasant. OSX is designed around an expectation of one button, but Linux really expects two, preferably three. For a desktop you'd just buy a new mouse, of course, but for a laptop the workarounds are more clunky--- one common one seems to be binding F12 to right-click.

    21. Re:For all those PPCs out there by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      > If the Apple Store employees are "going to try to sell her a Mac Pro"

      Been there. Done that. Have the experience to contradict your BS disembling.

      Thanks for playing. Try again some other time fanboy...

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    22. Re:For all those PPCs out there by jo_ham · · Score: 1

      I have also "been there, done that", and have spent approximately £70,000 (business and personal) in Apple stores, and have advised at least 5 of my close friends (3 of them total computer illiterate people) to go and browse in the store.

      Not once has a Mac Pro been forced on any of us.

      I have anecdotes too!

      You must have some serious axe to grind if you are going to contest that in an Apple store, of all places - the land of shiny consumer gadgets like the MacBook, Macbook Pro and iMac, custom designed for granny and the family - will have store personnel who steer people away from there over to the Mac Pro and say "this is what you need" then you are clearly just spoiling for a fight, or are unwilling to see past your nerd rage.

      Or is your anecdote "I asked for a Mac that I could upgrade with a new GPU and they told me only the Mac Pro has that ability" and thus concluded from your single data point that they try to sell Mac Pros to everyone.

      4 digit ID. I assumed all of you guys were pretty together as far as tech stuff went. ebay it, maybe? How much did you pay?

  12. Early compared to Windows by TorKlingberg · · Score: 1

    It would seem strange to drop support for OS X 10.4, released in 2005, while keeping support for Windows 2000, released in 2000. Even if Win2000 support is dropped, XP was released in 2001 is certainly staying.

    I know Apple isn't exactly famous for backwards compatibility, but is it this extreme? Is the stereotype true that Mac owners are people with too much money to spare that will buy anything as soon as Apple tells them too? Are there no businesses using 10.4 that are holding off on upgrading?

    1. Re:Early compared to Windows by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      Given Apple and MS's respective rates of change, it would wholly fail to surprise me if supporting Windows 2000 is easier than supporting OS 10.4.

      Microsoft has been pretty aggressive about using DirectX to shove the gamer kiddies forward into the future; but that isn't really an issue for FF.

    2. Re:Early compared to Windows by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      I guess it's to do with percentages...
      What percentage of windows users still use XP? Probably quite high, and there isn't much difference between 2000 and XP.
      On the other hand, the percentage of Mac users still running 10.4 is quite low, at least all the mac users i know are running something more recent these days even if they might also own an older machine still running 10.4.

      Also to do with how recently each version was available, XP is still on sale and you can buy machines even today with it preinstalled. OSX 10.4 on the other hand does not ship on any current macs and hasn't for over 2 years, and isn't available separately either.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    3. Re:Early compared to Windows by smash · · Score: 1
      OS X is actually actively developed. Look, its FIREFOX making this decision, because coding for 10.4 is a bitch when there are plenty of shiny new more easily maintained APIs available in 10.5 and later.

      Garbage collection, fast enumeration, properties, Coretext, etc. The ui might look the same between os x versions, but coding for 10.5 vs 10.4 or earlier is significantly different and less painful.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    4. Re:Early compared to Windows by nxtw · · Score: 1

      It would seem strange to drop support for OS X 10.4, released in 2005, while keeping support for Windows 2000, released in 2000. Even if Win2000 support is dropped, XP was released in 2001 is certainly staying.

      The Win32 API hasn't changed as much; one can still use the latest compilers (VC++ or GCC) to make programs that run on Windows 2000 and all newer versions of Windows. This does not seem to be the case for OS X.

      Dropping OS X 10.4 support is relatively minor compared to Firefox Linux support; Firefox 3 (released in 2008) didn't compile on RHEL 4 (released in 2005) using the distribution's included dependencies. Red Hat made it work, but I think the Firefox 3 package includes newer versions of certain dependencies used only by the Firefox binary.

    5. Re:Early compared to Windows by ae1294 · · Score: 1

      It would seem strange to drop support for OS X 10.4, released in 2005, while keeping support for Windows 2000, released in 2000. Even if Win2000 support is dropped, XP was released in 2001 is certainly staying.

      I don't think the Win2000 code is much different than the WinXP plus if you look at it from the number of current users Win2k has to be over 9000 times higher than OS X 10.4. Die hard OS X 10.4 users can always fork it.

    6. Re:Early compared to Windows by maxume · · Score: 1

      I would guess they are more concerned with the percentage of Firefox users still on each platform than they are with the relationships between the various platforms.

      (And then, as you say, there is the matter of the relative lack of difference between Windows 2000 and Windows XP)

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    7. Re:Early compared to Windows by Swift2001 · · Score: 1

      Especially since Windows doesn't support Windows 2000 anymore. No security updates, no?

    8. Re:Early compared to Windows by jo_ham · · Score: 1

      Consider that the latest version of Safari is still supported on Tiger...

      This is not Apple's decision, although there were large API changes between 10.4 and 10.5 that make supporting pre-10.5 more challenging for third party developers.

    9. Re:Early compared to Windows by jeremyp · · Score: 1

      The latest version of Firefox is still supported on Tiger. It's the next one that will be dropping Tiger support.

      I'd bet my house that the next version of Safari (Safari 5) will not be supported on Tiger. If nothing else, it'll probably use the Objective-C 2 runtime which doesn't work on Tiger.

      --
      All I want is a secure system where it's easy to do anything I want. Is that too much to ask ~~ Randall Munroe
  13. What a sick joke. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The Mozilla Foundation is just as retarded as they claim closed source houses are.

    Where do these assholes get off screaming about Microsoft's upgrade treadmill and abandonment when they pull stupid and unnecessary stunts like this so there's more room to bloat up their stupidly unnecessary and broken "features" (hello Autisticbar?) that nobody actually wants? Nevermind that every damned version renders pages differently, throwing the whole "but but but itz standurdz cumpliantz!" argument right out the fucking window.

    You're in a glass house, so stop throwing stones already. Thank God Microsoft doesn't actually listen to you idiots.

  14. Affecting a small audience by diamondsw · · Score: 1

    I'd expect that very few people still running Tiger (two major releases out of date) are going to be updating their Firefox install to the latest and greatest. And no, the ten people in the Slashdot audience who pipe up and say they're running Tiger for some esoteric reason are not representative of the whole.

    --
    I don't know what kind of crack I was on, but I suspect it was decaf.
    1. Re:Affecting a small audience by psergiu · · Score: 2, Informative

      Firefox on OS X updates automatically. Users just have to push a "OK" button in a dialog to re-open their current windows in tabs in the updated version.

      --
      1% APY, No fees, Online Bank https://captl1.co/2uIErYq Don't let your $$$ sit in a no-interest acct.
    2. Re:Affecting a small audience by Ltap · · Score: 1

      You're absolutely right. Windows fell into this mire years ago. Most of it comes from their target demographic (businesses) who want to set up machines and then try to keep them in some kind of stasis without doing anything more than installing the most basic security patches. This results in a huge load of out-of-date machines that are incredibly susceptible to malware and bog everyone down, both users and IT personnel.

      The facts are that if you're really that recalcitrant and aren't willing to upgrade, you should accept the consequences. The fault in this, though, doesn't completely lie with the user - it partially lies with Apple, for not providing a clear upgrade path. The trouble is that people like the Firefox developers are now being burdened with support for a ton of older OS versions because of people who refuse to upgrade.

      --
      Yet Another Tech Blog
      (but so much more, including game and movie reviews)
      http://yanteb.peasantoid.org
    3. Re:Affecting a small audience by CompMD · · Score: 1

      Not everyone subscribes to the idea that they MUST purchase the latest and greatest OS for their hardware. I don't believe that thinking "I'm not going to blow $100 on an upgrade I DON'T NEED or I CAN'T USE" is an esoteric reason at all. Step out of your reality distortion field.

    4. Re:Affecting a small audience by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My esoteric reason is that I've got a 1GHz AlPB. A legal copy of 10.5 is very hard to come by, and at the time
      I was reading that 10.5 was actually slower on PPC hardware (unlike the 10.3 -> 10.4 transition).

    5. Re:Affecting a small audience by asdf7890 · · Score: 1

      Not everyone subscribes to the idea that they MUST purchase the latest and greatest OS for their hardware. I don't believe that thinking "I'm not going to blow $100 on an upgrade I DON'T NEED or I CAN'T USE" is an esoteric reason at all. Step out of your reality distortion field.

      I agree with you in general here (which is why my main Windows machine is still running XP - the only thing I might particularly want at this point is DX10/11 support and I'm not interested enough to pay £100 for that), but there is a mitigating factor here in that, IIRC, Apple themselves no longer support OSX10.4 as they only support the current and previous releases so you aren't getting security updates for the OS you currently run. Personally I would not wish to encourage the general public to run an OS that potentially has unpatched security vulnerabilities to run their machine connected to the Internet... This isn't just Apple bashing (I have no particular axe to grind, at least not one that is relevant to this discussion) - I would say the same for Ubuntu 7.04 or prior (aside from 6.06 for server use, as this is supported until June 2011), or by May this year Ubuntu 7.10.

    6. Re:Affecting a small audience by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Stop by an Apple store and try to buy a copy of 10.5.

  15. Re:Phasing out support for 10.4? I still run 10.3! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Buy, buy, buy...what a pain. How hard is it to just keep up on security patches for old browsers?

    It can be really hard if the OS designer really doesn't care about backwards compatibility and just expects all the users to buy new versions of every piece of software every couple years. This is part of the reason why Apple computers will never be able to make it in the business world. And by business world I mean the people in suits and ties who drink real coffee and get stuff done, not those guys with turtlenecks and lattes whose job is to pat other turtleneck wearers on the back while simultaneously judging them on their eyewear.

  16. Odd... by MachineShedFred · · Score: 0, Troll

    Funny that Apple doesn't have any problem writing Safari updates that still work on 10.4...

    --
    Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
    1. Re:Odd... by Firkragg14 · · Score: 1

      Its not that theres a problem with 10.4 that makes it impossible for them to continue updating for it. The issue is that 10.4 requires a large amount of specific code which the firefox maintainers dont feel that its worth developing and maintaing anymore hence they are removing support for it

    2. Re:Odd... by AndrewNeo · · Score: 1

      Yeah, it is funny that the company with the most intimate knowledge of the operating system (because they wrote it) can keep writing updates, isn't it? Strange how that works.

    3. Re:Odd... by smash · · Score: 1

      Apple have a bit more motivation than Mozilla... you know... OS X 10.4 being a product they sold and all.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    4. Re:Odd... by BZ · · Score: 1

      Do they? Will Safari 5 (which is the relevant comparison to the next version of Firefox) support 10.4?

    5. Re:Odd... by jo_ham · · Score: 1

      You'll have to ask Apple.

      Their last security update for 10.4 was in mid/late 2009, so it may be tailing off. I guess a lot will depend if they run into the same issue as Mozilla - that there is no CoreText in 10.4.

  17. Re:Phasing out support for 10.4? I still run 10.3! by B3ryllium · · Score: 2, Insightful

    How hard is it to just keep up on security patches for old browsers?

    A security patch isn't as simple as deciding "Oh, we don't want to have that vulnerability any more" and commenting out a setting. If it was that easy, there wouldn't be very many vulnerabilities at all.

    On the one hand, any time you find a new vulnerability (or a new class of vulnerabilities), you have to audit all the nooks and crannies of the code base in order to identify either the problem itself, or the problem areas that are affected.

    On the other hand, any time you change a line of code, you have to recompile. That means, to release the patch, you'll have to recompile for *every target OS*, and you'll have to *test* on every one of those OSes.

    Surely when considering both of those complicating factors, you can see what Mozilla's motivations might be for retiring old support branches with a relatively limited user base?

  18. Re:Phasing out support for 10.4? I still run 10.3! by sznupi · · Score: 1

    You might look into using Opera, its latest 10-series still supports not only 10.4, but also 10.3. Also has quite good security record and on older machines it is readily apparent how snappy Opera is (don't forget using its built-in adblocker)

    --
    One that hath name thou can not otter
  19. Rumour mill: 10.4 quietly being EOL'd? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  20. Welcome To The Upgrade Treadmill by rsmith-mac · · Score: 1

    For anyone who has been with Apple since the beginning of Mac OS X, this shouldn't come as a surprise. Mac OS X is on a definite upgrade treadmill: Apple wants to do a major OS update every 2 years and nothing is sacred - they're boldly going forward and they can't find reverse. More to the point, Apple has decided not to put a lot of effort in to supporting legacy operating systems, so they only do feature updates on the current OS, and security updates on the previous OS. In other words, 10.4 no longer gets security updates since it's 2 OSes back.

    So to release new software with 10.4 compatibility is a dubious proposition, because you're deploying software on an OS with an ever-increasing number of security vulnerabilities which in turn may impact your product. In this case Moz is better off avoiding 10.4, not only to avoid the dangers of deploying software on a retired OS, but also so that they can focus further development on using the features of the 10.5+ API.

    Welcome to the upgrade treadmill, guys. Not a lot of people like it, but that's the price of admission to Steve's world.

    1. Re:Welcome To The Upgrade Treadmill by yuhong · · Score: 1

      To be honest, the upgrade treadmill is not unique to Apple, it is just that Microsoft enforces it less strictly.

    2. Re:Welcome To The Upgrade Treadmill by zxsqkty · · Score: 1

      In other words, 10.4 no longer gets security updates

      Untrue. The last 'general' security update for 10.4 was on 10 Sept 2009. There have been subsequent security updates for Safari, iTunes, etc.

      --
      Caution: May contain nuts.
    3. Re:Welcome To The Upgrade Treadmill by BZ · · Score: 1

      > The last 'general' security update for 10.4 was on 10 Sept 2009

      Which was right about when 10.6 shipped. At that point 10.4 was in fact the "previous OS".

      The question is whether there will be more 10.4 security updates. And since Apple never announces EOL for its OSes officially, there's no way to know for sure.

    4. Re:Welcome To The Upgrade Treadmill by jo_ham · · Score: 1

      I agree, but the bolded portion of the GP's post states as fact that Apple are no longer patching 10.4, when no one really knows for sure, as well as containing some opinion-as-fact about "not putting effort into supporting old OSes" (while releasing current iTunes and Safari updates for 10.4).

    5. Re:Welcome To The Upgrade Treadmill by rsmith-mac · · Score: 1

      There's no question that it won't get any more security updates. Vulnerabilities have since been found in several OS X components that were patched in Leopard last year (2009-006) but not Tiger. It's dead, Jim.

    6. Re:Welcome To The Upgrade Treadmill by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mac OS X is on a definite upgrade treadmill: Apple wants to do a major OS update every 2 years

      So does Microsoft, but so far they've been too fucking incompetent to pull that off. And Vista -> Windows 7 does count. 7 is just Vista with the really annoying shit fixed, no matter how badly Microsoft wants you to believe it's a major new version.

      However, I will give Microsoft credit for that Software Assurance crap, where they convinced companies to pay them in exchange for basically nothing, while they were bungling the development of Vista.

  21. Re:Phasing out support for 10.4? I still run 10.3! by maxume · · Score: 1

    They are still releasing security updates for 3.0. I would imagine that translates into at least another year, probably more, of security updates for 3.5.

    --
    Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
  22. Re:Phasing out support for 10.4? I still run 10.3! by PenguSven · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It can be really hard if the OS designer really doesn't care about backwards compatibility and just expects all the users to buy new versions of every piece of software every couple years.

    This is Mozilla pure and simple. Apple offers Safari 4 for OS X 10.4 (Tiger), so it's clearly not an impossible task to have an up to date browser on the OS.

    And by business world I mean the people in suits and ties who drink real coffee and get stuff done, not those guys with turtlenecks and lattes whose job is to pat other turtleneck wearers on the back while simultaneously judging them on their eyewear.

    You mean the kind who are shackled to a desk 9-5 with a strict 30 minute lunch break, and get kicks out of really awesome spreadsheets?

    You can keep your "real coffee" and your fucking suit, I'll stick to working a job that is flexible around me, not the other way around.

    --
    What is...?
  23. XP is dead weight by tepples · · Score: 1

    Vista (6.0) was released early november 2006, over 3 years ago, and 3 years is well enough time to let end-users move on and revision their computing. Oh wait, it's not; Windows XP (66%) still greatly outnumbers Windows Vista and Windows 7 put together (25%).

    1. Re:XP is dead weight by smash · · Score: 0, Flamebait
      I wouldn't go proclaiming XP numbers out there to be justification for not dropping some other OS. Just because windows users are largely brain damaged, it doesn't mean OS X users have to be as well.

      Its HIGH TIME people moved off XP as well. Any half decent hardware that was purchased in 2004 will run Vista/7 just fine, and XP is just a basket-case of an OS these days with a variety of broken policy settings (can't give people ability to manage power settings without local admin?? haha) and limited remote management (go check out powershell 2.0 and some of the new management tools).

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
  24. Chip sets by Frankenshteen · · Score: 2, Informative

    Speaking for myself; keeping the G5 on 10.4 because it's the last OS X version specifically designed for the power pc chipset, right? 10.5 ushered in the migration to intel architecture, and 10.5 supposedly served both ppc and intel, but was considered relatively inferior to Tiger stability-wise. With Snow Leopard, even apple made it clear they've retired support for legacy, non-intel, systems. Can't remember the last time i got a software update for anything other than safari or itunes...

    --
    "It's a doughnut stuffed with M&M's. That way when you finish the doughnut, you don't have to eat any M&M's."
  25. Tiger is running on 1/3 of macs by addininja · · Score: 1

    According to Omni Software update statistics, a third of all macs are still running tiger. http://update.omnigroup.com/

    1. Re:Tiger is running on 1/3 of macs by Lemmy+Caution · · Score: 1

      I switched to Mac right after Leopard was released, and I'm starting to get annoyed by the incompatibilities across versions of the OS already. (My wife has the Leopard machine, mine is Snow Leopard - Snow Leopard's removal of support for InputManager-based plug-ins) It looks like it only gets more annoying.

      I think this may be my last round of Macs.

    2. Re:Tiger is running on 1/3 of macs by smash · · Score: 1

      According to mozilla's stats, OS X users who have bothered to upgrade their firefox to 3.6 are only composed of 12% 10.4 users.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
  26. Re:Good. by tepples · · Score: 1

    Mac OS X is going to be phased out in favor of what the iPhone platform is running anyway.

    On which platform will developers make apps for "what the iPhone platform is running"? As I see it, the big draw of a Mac for developers is that you need one to make iPhone apps. Or will it get to the point where only developers who have a track record on a non-Apple platform will be allowed to develop iPhone apps?

  27. Updating on Mac OS X by tepples · · Score: 1

    And even if the grandson does the deed, she won't know how to use it or update it (Firefox on OSX updates automatically).

    Ubuntu's Update Manager updates just as automatically. In fact, I find updating in Ubuntu more convenient. First, Ubuntu is like Windows in that you can update in the background, unlike Mac OS X where updating forces all applications to close. That wouldn't be a problem except that Mac OS X (at least 10.6) forces a restart, not a shutdown or restart-to-hibernate, after an update. That's a pain if updating is the last thing you do in a day before leaving the computer; you have to sit around and wait for it to finish instead of setting it and forgetting it.

    1. Re:Updating on Mac OS X by smash · · Score: 1

      not all os x updates are foreground only, and not all require a restart, either.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    2. Re:Updating on Mac OS X by tepples · · Score: 1

      not all os x updates are foreground only

      True, but the ones that are foreground-only and require a restart require just that, a restart, not a shutdown. What should someone faced with a long foreground-only restart-requiring update do at the end of a workday?

  28. This, basically, is why I left Mac by Tetsujin · · Score: 1

    Don't get me wrong, here: I do understand that an OS has to change as it develops, in order to make any progress... And I understand that an almost unavoidable consequence of this is that older versions of the OS will not be able to support programs built for newer versions, and that maintaining application code for older versions of the OS is a lot of extra work...

    But I really found it very frustrating when I was a Mac user, that I had to either continually upgrade the OS, or else lose access to new versions of things like VLC and Mozilla. It's a cultural thing, I guess: I'm used to those kinds of updates being free. This is why my 12" powerbook has been gathering dust ever since I got a EEE.

    --
    Bow-ties are cool.
    1. Re:This, basically, is why I left Mac by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      But I really found it very frustrating when I was a Mac user, that I had to either continually upgrade the OS, or else lose access to new versions of things like VLC and Mozilla.

      As opposed to, say, Windows? I'd been using Quickbooks Pro on Windows 2000, but Intuit stopped supporting the payroll service for the version I was using. The newer, supported version of Quickbooks required XP, so I had to pay (a lot more than the cost of an OS X upgrade) to buy that, too.

      I know exactly how you feel. I just don't understand why your dislike applies to only one platform.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    2. Re:This, basically, is why I left Mac by Tetsujin · · Score: 1

      But I really found it very frustrating when I was a Mac user, that I had to either continually upgrade the OS, or else lose access to new versions of things like VLC and Mozilla.

      As opposed to, say, Windows? I'd been using Quickbooks Pro on Windows 2000, but Intuit stopped supporting the payroll service for the version I was using. The newer, supported version of Quickbooks required XP, so I had to pay (a lot more than the cost of an OS X upgrade) to buy that, too.

      I know exactly how you feel. I just don't understand why your dislike applies to only one platform.

      Why would I comment about Windows? I really don't use it except at work. I don't really have a huge knowledge of or attachment to that platform. Please bear in mind I'm not making an argument for why other people should not use Mac - I'm just talking about my experience with the platform... How I was drawn in and why I ultimately left.

      Prior to trying Mac I was a Linux user. I got a Powerbook 'cause I liked the idea of a Unixy laptop that would be easy to maintain and have a reasonable selection of commercial software available. But I got rather frustrated with it for a variety of reasons: The experience of running Unix software on a Mac is lousy, and after a while I couldn't run any new software because everything was being released for newer versions of the OS.

      Obviously I still need to upgrade the software on my Linux systems if I want to continue to run new versions of things: I need the right libraries and so on... But I don't have to pay for it. I like that.

      Being a programmer myself I understand that there's real value that goes into each new release of the OS, and from that perspective it's worth paying for: but when I'm just using the system, a lot of that value seems artificial. A lot of that value isn't obvious because it's in areas of the OS the user doesn't see. (The exceptions, like desktop search and improvements to the window management, I mostly don't care about.) It felt like there was nothing in that new version of the OS I wanted, except the ability to continue getting new versions of VLC, Mozilla, Blender, and ports of various Unix programs. I could get all that on Debian for free.

      --
      Bow-ties are cool.
    3. Re:This, basically, is why I left Mac by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      OK, fair enough. It's just that on Slashdot, you don't often hear people saying they're switching from OS X to a Free Unix. They almost exclusively talk about switching to Windows for various reasons.

      I'm typing this on FreeBSD and definitely not favoring Windows.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    4. Re:This, basically, is why I left Mac by jpmorgan · · Score: 1

      Because Windows 2000 is 10 years old, XP is 9 years old. 10.4 was still being shipped on new computers less than three years ago. And some of these computers don't even have an upgrade path: Apple no longer sells Leopard, and do not support the older hardware in Snow Leopard. So basically, if you have a G4 Mac... you're fucked. Time to buy a new Mac!

    5. Re:This, basically, is why I left Mac by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's what you get for buying Apple.

    6. Re:This, basically, is why I left Mac by Tetsujin · · Score: 1

      OK, fair enough. It's just that on Slashdot, you don't often hear people saying they're switching from OS X to a Free Unix.

      Yeah, what the hell is wrong with Slashdot these days? XD

      --
      Bow-ties are cool.
    7. Re:This, basically, is why I left Mac by jo_ham · · Score: 1

      And Apple still ships its current version of Safari on 10.4! And last patched it with a security update in September 2009. This is entirely Mozilla's decision - the code and APIs still exist. You can still target builds for your project for 10.4 if you like, but Apple included new, faster APIs for text rendering in 10.5. You can leave in the code to use the old stuff in 10.4, which Apple have obviously done with Safari. It's just more work to maintain it, and adds problems with new features in your app.

      What did you want them to do? Backport CoreText to 10.4, or just not improve the APIs they were using? According to the wiki, it looks like CpreText was a private API in 10.4, so I guess they could officially make it a public API as far back as that, although it may have undergone revision between 10.4 and its official release as public in 10.5. Who knows.

      Oh I know, I know, this is all Apple's fault for.... I don't know, something to do with the iPad being DoA due to not having a stylus.

    8. Re:This, basically, is why I left Mac by prockcore · · Score: 1

      You can still target builds for your project for 10.4 if you like, but Apple included new, faster APIs for text rendering in 10.5

      You need two code bases.. you need to target ATSUI for 10.4, and CoreText for 10.6. 10.5 can use either one.. 10.4 can't use CoreText, and 10.6 can't use ATSUI.

  29. RTFS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The answer is: Mozilla should have a very clear policy about backwards compatibility and follow it to the letter. Correct me if I'm wrong, but they don't currently have that.

    I understand this is Slashdot and RTFA is rare, but it appears you didn't even bother to read the summary either:

    "The foundation stopped supporting 10.4, codenamed Tiger, in September 2009"

  30. Display PICT by tepples · · Score: 1

    KDE [...] its broken and does not work properly.

    In what way?

    As far as display PDF goes... look it up.

    Apple calls it "Quartz", not "Display PDF". Calling Quartz "Display PDF" is like calling QuickDraw "Display PICT" or calling GDI "Display WMF".

    1. Re:Display PICT by smash · · Score: 1
      KDE = broken in so far as they dropped all the decent apps, and UI in 4.x, every version of 4.x i've run has been an unstable pile of shit.

      If you care about software backwards compatibility (which seems to be your whole incentive to go to Linux on a PPC machine???) then KDE is not for you.

      They lost the plot with 4.x.

      I'll leave the semantics of a PDF based display subsystem to you - I was actually just referring to some developer documentation before hitting slashdot (getting starting with graphics on the mac) where it was mentioned in the quartz documentation...

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    2. Re:Display PICT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Apple calls it "Quartz", not "Display PDF". Calling Quartz "Display PDF" is like calling QuickDraw "Display PICT" or calling GDI "Display WMF".

      Uh...the name of the technology is DisplayPDF. Look up NeXT sometime and find out where OS Z origionated from. It has nothing to do with PDF files at all.

  31. strawman by emj · · Score: 1

    I don't think that matters much on PPCs, which is the main reasons for not installing 10.5

  32. retrain?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Usually all those old 10.4 running macs are Grandma's and Auntie's browsing machines. Switching those machines to Linux is not advised unless you want to spend the next 3 months re-training their users

    If they are truly "browsing machines," then what is there to retrain about? Firefox on Linux doesn't work differently than Firefox on MacOS.

    If you're doing generic "internet stuff" then all OSes are about the same. It's only when you get into local apps that you start to see "oh shit, application xxx hasn't been ported to OS yyyy."

  33. I blame apple by rjolley · · Score: 1

    This is the OS that came with my 3 year old macbook and it's already no longer being supported. Most recently I had to compile subversion from source just to get the latest version running (universal binaries for subversion are no longer available for the latest release.) Apple should know better and release these updates as part of some sort of "service pack" if you will. If this were Microsoft's operating system the haters would be all over it, but I guess since it's Apple, I should have been expected to replace my laptop with one running the latest OS last year.

    1. Re:I blame apple by smash · · Score: 1

      29 bucks too much for you? If it was Microsoft, you'd be paying 300 bucks every 5 years. OS X, 30-50 bucks every 2-3 years, and the OS is actually faster. No brainer...

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    2. Re:I blame apple by rjolley · · Score: 1

      The OSX updates are service packs, with windows I get that for free. I also ran windows xp from 2002 to 2009 after which I upgraded it to windows 7 for $40. (Costco 4 pack shared with some friends) So that's 40 bucks after 7 years (with 3 free service packs in between) 10.4 -> 10.5 was $129 iirc and came out late 2007 and is not any bit faster than 10.4 (in fact it's slower, I have it on my mac mini I bought back when I didn't realize apple screws it's customers over year after year) 10.5-10.6 is $29. So that's $160 in 3 years compared to $40 in 7. No brainer...

    3. Re:I blame apple by dasmoo · · Score: 1

      So because Microsoft couldn't sell you Vista, Apple are ripping you off? If you'd skipped leopard then bought a snow leopard family pack (5 pack) with some friends you'd have saved $30.

    4. Re:I blame apple by rjolley · · Score: 1

      You know 4 other people who own a mac? Cost isn't really the issue here anyway, the issue is that Apple is no longer supporting an OS that they were selling just 3 years ago.

      I could pay to upgrade to the latest OS, but I shouldn't have to so soon, especially not for security updates or software compatibility. The new features from a user perspective are non-existent. Time machine, virtual desktops, and stackable dock icons? Come on Apple...

    5. Re:I blame apple by Smurf · · Score: 1

      The OSX updates are service packs, with windows I get that for free.
      (...)
      10.4 -> 10.5 was $129 iirc and came out late 2007 and is not any bit faster than 10.4 (in fact it's slower, I have it on my mac mini I bought back when I didn't realize apple screws it's customers over year after year) 10.5-10.6 is $29.

      You are mistaken. The OS X licenses for the boxed versions are upgrades only. That means that you are expected to have a license for the previous version of the OS in order to acquire the new one. But the actual DVDs (and CDs at the time) don't enforce this, they have always included the full version of the operating system. You don't need to have any older version installed (which would be ridiculous if you were installing on a brand new hard drive). That includes Snow Leopard. Let me repeat that: you do not need Leopard installed on your machine in order to install Snow Leopard. Just backup your data and do a fresh install, do not attempt to do an "upgrade".

      Of course Apple tells you otherwise because they want to recover part of the money they lost when you bypassed Leopard. So they tell you to buy the $169 Mac Box Set which includes iLife '09 and iWork '09. Bollocks. That's a good deal if you also want iLife and iWork, but the regular DVD of Snow Leopard will install on your system just fine.

    6. Re:I blame apple by jo_ham · · Score: 1

      Apple supports it. Mozilla doesn't.

      Use Safari on 10.4 if you want to use the same browser that they are shipping with 10.6 - it is fully up to date. They also released a security patch in September 2009.

      Mozilla's handwaving is somewhat premature for an OS that was being shipped new only 3 years ago.

    7. Re:I blame apple by hmar · · Score: 1

      repeat after me: Mozilla is not Apple. The issue here is that Mozilla has chosen to drop Apple support, not Apple. Mozilla is free to do so. Apple is still supporting 10.4.

    8. Re:I blame apple by danielsfca2 · · Score: 1

      The OSX updates are service packs, with windows I get that for free. .

      Yawn. Keep telling yourself that. So since 10.6 10.5 10.4 10.3 10.2 10.1 were all service packs I guess in your opinion OS X hasn't had any real releases since 10.0 in 1999 or 2000 right? Don't be a moron. Say that you prefer Windows, I don't care, some people like it and it has its pros and cons. OS X has its pros and cons too. But don't be intentionally dense. Or otherwise tell me how 10.4 was less of an upgrade over its predecessor, 10.3, than Windows XP was vs. 2000. (Hint: Windows 2000's internal name is NT 5.0. XP? 5.1.) Same goes for 10.5 vs. 10.4.

      Clearly version numbers don't mean anything. Adding hella new features is not a service pack. The only features MS ever added in a service pack was Windows Genuine Advantage, and a lot of training wheels for MSIE 6.0. Compare this to Spotlight, Expose, Time Machine, etc. The only reason Apple didn't call 10.2 "OS 11" and on from there, is because they spent a lot of time and money branding it "OS X" ("Ten") and "OS XI" would look weird and not roll off the tongue.

  34. Re:Phasing out support for 10.4? I still run 10.3! by dn15 · · Score: 1

    A shame. I know people who bought nice new Macbooks running 10.4 in 2008, and they won't want to upgrade their OS after just over a year.

    People with older PowerPC hardware may feel stuck between a rock and a hard place, yes. But there are a couple free/cheap solutions for those running Intel Macs:
    - Use Safari: The current version (4.0.4 at the moment) is available for 10.4. Granted the next major version may or may not, but we'll have to cross that bridge when we come to it.
    - Get Snow Leopard for only $29 and run any version of Firefox you want.

  35. Yeah, definitely Firefox... by Tetsujin · · Score: 1

    Where do these assholes get off screaming about Microsoft's upgrade treadmill and abandonment when they pull stupid and unnecessary stunts like this so there's more room to bloat up their stupidly unnecessary and broken "features" (hello Autisticbar?) that nobody actually wants?

    For sure I hate what they did to the location bar (and prefer not to use its current, rather stupid name) - but I am curious... Do you find some connection between the current behavior of the Firefox location bar and Autism, or is this word choice solely the result of a slight similarity between "Awesome" and "Autism"?

    --
    Bow-ties are cool.
    1. Re:Yeah, definitely Firefox... by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      I guess it's not about the behaviour of the bar itself, but about the behaviour of the developers who invented it. Developers not listening to the wishes of the users, but only developing what they personally consider a good idea could well be considered a sort of "developer autism." After all, a typical symptom of autism is lack of communication with the rest of the world. The autistic person to some extent lives in his own little world, and so do the developers who don't listen to the users.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
  36. Re:Phasing out support for 10.4? I still run 10.3! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Buy, buy, buy...what a pain. How hard is it to just keep up on security patches for old browsers?

    Firefox is open source. If you want the patches, write them yourself. If that is too much work for you, then I am sure you will understand why others are reluctant to do it for you.

  37. Premature? Depends .... by King_TJ · · Score: 1

    Although Firefox does still appear to have Windows 2000 support, it hasn't supported Windows ME since, I believe, version 2.0. That just recently caused me problems, when I was trying to recycle an old Pentium 2 class machine to give to an unemployed woman who just needed a *really* cheap computer to do an Internet job search with. I discovered that with Windows ME (or by extension, Windows '98), there are really no "up to date" browser choices (except possibly Opera) they can use anymore. Internet Explorer 6 is the last version Microsoft offers for those OS's, and everyone's trying to kill that off as we speak.

    Since Windows ME and 2000 were released in the same time-frame, I'd say Firefox's continued Win2K support has more to do with it being trivial to do than any conscious sense of a need to support an OS for "x number of years". Windows XP, after all, was pretty much based on the Windows 2000 foundation.

    As far as Macs go, I'd tend to side with your view that it's "too soon to kill off Tiger support" ... simply because 10.6 "Snow Leopard" doesn't really count in my book as a full-blown OS X "new version". I don't say that to knock 10.6 in any way, shape or form. (I run it on my Mac at home and love it.) I'm just saying, it's the first time Apple has sold 2 versions of OS X side-by-side on store shelves -- because Leopard isn't really superseded by Snow Leopard for PowerPC Mac owners. Snow Leopard is, essentially a "Leopard +" release to give Intel Mac owners the maximum benefit out of their processor architecture. (Why waste hard disk space with a bunch of PPC code on an Intel Mac that will never utilize it? And why not provide tools in 10.6 so developers of new apps can optimize them for the multi-core Intel processors?) The fact you could buy Snow Leopard for only $29.99 reinforces this concept.

  38. Jaguar User by gertam · · Score: 1

    I am still using Jaguar on a number of machines.

  39. Obligatory "me too!" post by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

    Me too! Also, I have a long memory, and I'm still pissed at all the Classic apps I couldn't run in 10.2.

    I switched to Vista, when it came out. Despite the complaints (which mostly applied to laptops anyway), Vista ran like a champ on a relatively cheap $700 desktop-- as a former Mac users, the thought that a $700 computer runs just as well as the $1800+ tower you're moving off of is mind-blowing. From there, I've upgraded to Windows 7 and never going back.

    Actually, I might buy another Mac simply because I think their laptop hardware is better-built. But I'd almost certainly run Windows 7 on it.

    (Anybody tried that, and can comment on how well the Mac's trackpad works in a Windows 7 world? Is it a pain in the ass to right-click?)

  40. Wrong Question for the Mac Faithful by buckhead_buddy · · Score: 1

    I'm a long time Mac user. Firefox developers are asking the wrong question of Mac users by focusing this discussion on continued support; of course, everyone wants their platform supported as long as possible.

    But if you ask about whether Firefox should feel more like a "native" Mac app, you'd get a lot of Mac faithful saying "ditch Tiger if that's standing in the way". For example, ATSUI is the legacy text engine from the days of OpenDoc and System 7.5; apps that still use it under Mac OS X draw fire from Mac users because it's not integrated as well as CoreText or the Cocoa Text Engine. They don't make this text engine distinction directly, but it's clear they don't consider ATSUI to be Mac-like anymore with the "bugs" they file and complaints they have about lack of integration e.g. "Why doesn't the command-control-d shortcut to look up something in the dictionary work?"

    Based on the goals of the Firefox roadmap, 4.0 looks like a "must-reluctantly-kill-Tiger" release just based on its lofty memory isolation goals; that's a feature you do not want to compromise the quality of.

    Keep the bug fixes and security updates of the 3.x Firefox platform able to work with Tiger. This helps Mac users. This helps support people. This helps propagate a good standards compliant browser to as many people with legacy hardware as possible. But a major release number like 4.0 is a good end-user aware point for removing significant backwards compatibility.

  41. Or just switch to one of the other options by weston · · Score: 2

    Or use one of the other options: Safari, Camino, iCab, or Omniweb. Probably some others that I've missed.

    It's interesting these folks don't have any apparent problem with supporting 10.4.

    1. Re:Or just switch to one of the other options by barzok · · Score: 2

      Does the latest Safari still support Tiger?

    2. Re:Or just switch to one of the other options by dgatwood · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yes. That's what makes this so bizarre; historically Open Source projects have continued to support old OSes and hardware for years after Apple drops support. This is very surreal.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    3. Re:Or just switch to one of the other options by aztracker1 · · Score: 1

      For Safari, this presumes that Apple doesn't magically drop support for old OSes and hardware 6 months after going to a new platform/version. As to Camino, it's a Mozilla project, if they drop the 10.4 specific stuff from the core rendering platform Camino is probably gone too. I'm not really up to speed on iCab and OmniWeb (iirc, they support very old mac platforms). It would be nice to see support for Mac OS versions last as long as at least XP support manages to hang on, but turnover, and legacy support just aren't valued as much for the Apple Mac platform.

      --
      Michael J. Ryan - tracker1.info
    4. Re:Or just switch to one of the other options by BZ · · Score: 1

      Well... The question is not about current releases; the current release of Firefox supports 10.4. The question is about _next_ releases. The next release of Safari... who knows. They don't publicly talk about their release planning 18 months in advance, unlike Mozilla.

      Note that Safari right this second ships different binaries for 10.4, 10.5, and 10.6. Of course this is made easier by the fact that most users get it via software update, not by having to download the right thing.

      As for Camino, it's going to end up dropping 10.4 support once it switches to Gecko 1.9.3 or equivalent, just like Firefox.... It's Gecko that will probably drop 10.4 support, not the browser UI.

    5. Re:Or just switch to one of the other options by ZachPruckowski · · Score: 1

      Tiger is already coming up on 5 years old. By the time the 10.4-supporting versions of Firefox are phased out, it's going to be at least 6 years old, maybe older (given Mozilla's tendency to let deadlines slip), and by that time, 10.7 will probably be in beta or something.

    6. Re:Or just switch to one of the other options by LinuxIsGarbage · · Score: 1

      Tiger is already coming up on 5 years old. By the time the 10.4-supporting versions of Firefox are phased out, it's going to be at least 6 years old, maybe older (given Mozilla's tendency to let deadlines slip), and by that time, 10.7 will probably be in beta or something.

      And Windows 2000 is almost 10 years old, was succeeded 7 years ago by Server 2k3 and is still supported by Mozilla. XP is 8 years old, succeeded 3 years ago by Vista and is still supported. Tiger was succeeded 2 and a half years ago and is being put out to pasture. Too bad it's Windows with forced obsolescence.

    7. Re:Or just switch to one of the other options by ZachPruckowski · · Score: 1

      I think the difference has to do with software architecture and with demographics. Windows XP is still used by like 60% of web users (and 2/3 of Windows users), whereas OS X Tiger is used by only like 15% of Mac users (and thus only like 1% of overall web users). And once you're supporting XP, Win2k is basically a freebie in terms of effort needed to support it. By contrast, there are major API differences between Leopard and Tiger - you have to use a different compiler, a different text renderer, and you can't use some of the newer Leopard APIs.

  42. Re:Phasing out support for 10.4? I still run 10.3! by BitZtream · · Score: 1

    Its open source. You're more than welcome to branch it and maintain a 'security fix only' release for yourself and share that with others.

    The problem is, no one wants to do that. They'd rather just use the new version since everyone capable of doing that has newer hardware anyway so it doesn't effect them.

    --
    Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
  43. Re:Good. by mini+me · · Score: 1

    what the iPhone platform is running

    The iPhone runs OS X, just like your Mac.

  44. Re:Obligatory contrary "me too!" post by TheOldBear · · Score: 1

    And how many of you OS9/Classic Mac apps ran on your Vista box?

    --
    Caution: Do not stare into laser with remaining eye.
  45. Re:Obligatory contrary "me too!" post by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

    My point is that since neither OS could run the apps I wanted to (Classic apps), and since OS X usability is now on the same level as Vista usability, I might as well use Vista if only so I have so many more apps (and games) available to me. The logic here isn't difficult...

  46. Some statistics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    First of all, I'm still running 10.4 just because it works perfectly fine for me, I've got everything installed and running, and I don't want to pay for an upgrade only because I've got to have the latest version. Since Leopard came out, I've only found a handful of apps that I couldn't run, but I've always found an alternative (either an older version or a similar app). Therefore, I don't feel compelled at all to upgrade: my machine works well, it is still very responsive, and the apps available are more than enough. My only concern is the Java version included, but I've managed to stay clear of 1.6 compatibility issues.

    I've always used Firefox in my Mac Book Pro, and with the few upgrades that caused problems I noticed that problems never lasted for more than a couple of weeks, until a new update solved everything. In that regard I'm very happy with Firefox's development team.

    I did some quick research and I found two sources of information about the usage of Tiger as of 2010. One comes from Adium, the other from something called The Panic Blog. As you can see, the percentage of people still running Tiger is close to 10 percent in both cases. It is a pity that there is no information available about how many Firefox users on Mac are still using Tiger.

    Adium report: http://adium.im/sparkle/?year=2010&week=05&graph=bar
    The Panic Blog report: http://www.panic.com/blog/2009/12/mac-os-x-stats-12-2009/

    1. Re:Some statistics by dasmoo · · Score: 2, Informative

      ===========
      Firefox 3.5
      ===========
      10.6 (Darwin 10.x): 1,497,221 (26%)
      10.5 (Darwin 9.x): 2,855,842 (50%)
      10.4 (Darwin 8.x): 1,379,770 (24%)
      All versions of Mac OS X: 5,732,833

      ===========
      Firefox 3.6
      ===========
      10.6 (Darwin 10.x): 186,825 (59%)
      10.5 (Darwin 9.x): 91,478 (29%)
      10.4 (Darwin 8.x): 35,960 (12%)
      All versions of Mac OS X: 314,263

    2. Re:Some statistics by BZ · · Score: 1

      The information you seek is linked from the article summary.

  47. Mac OS X + iLife Box Set by Gary+W.+Longsine · · Score: 1

    If she's got a Core2Duo laptop, get her the Mac Box Set for a present. It will be like getting a brand new computer. Even if all she does is use a web browser, it will run so much better under Snow Leopard than it does under Tiger that it's not even funny.

    --
    If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.
    1. Re:Mac OS X + iLife Box Set by Cowclops · · Score: 1

      Its a c2d macbook but its only got 1GB of ram. Does that affect whether snow leopard runs better?

      (I ask because if i only had 1GB ram I wouldn't want to upgrade from XP to Win7, but on the flip side if I had vista i'd definitely want to upgrade to 7 regardless of the amount of ram)

  48. Alternative solution to marginalization of v10.4 by simoncpu+was+here · · Score: 1

    More and more projects are starting to drop support for v10.4. I don't want to switch to Leopard because Tiger works fine. I feel that spending my money on an upgrade is just not worth it. When the time comes that the majority of Mac OS X apps would no longer work on v10.4, I'll just reformat my MacBook and replace its OS with FreeBSD.

  49. How about 10.2.8? by antdude · · Score: 1

    It's only like seven years old. [grin]

    --
    Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
  50. Re:Obligatory contrary "me too!" post by Tetsujin · · Score: 1

    And how many of you OS9/Classic Mac apps ran on your Vista box?

    A better analogy would be "how many of your Windows 3.0 apps ran on your Vista box?" Or you could even go as far forward as Windows 98 and it'd still be a reasonable comparison - twelve years in the past for Windows, twelve years in the past for Mac. I think Windows would do pretty well at that test. The Mac platform has gone through two serious upheavals in that time, so I think the fact that it fails is at least understandable - but it also tends to make me frustrated in terms of actually using the platform. :)

    Going the other way (which is what my post was about) I think Windows would still do pretty well. Taking today's apps on systems from six years ago: How many Windows apps these days don't run on XP?

    Realistically I think Linux doesn't rate too well in terms of forward and backward compatibility either. Changes to the libraries are probably the big problem there. But the updates are free and the distro makes 'em easy, so I don't mind as much usually. :)

    --
    Bow-ties are cool.
  51. Re:Phasing out support for 10.4? I still run 10.3! by Amarantine · · Score: 1

    Getting Snow Leopard for $29 while running Tiger is not a valid upgrade path according to Apple. The $29 version of SL is only allowed to be used to upgrade Leopard to Snow Leopard. Users of Tiger should buy the Mac Box Set for $169, including iWork and iLife 09.

    Not that the installer complains, it'll install on every hard drive inside a Mac, with Tiger, Leopard, Windows or nothing on it, without checking for any previous versions.

  52. Re:Phasing out support for 10.4? I still run 10.3! by Korbeau · · Score: 2, Insightful

    How hard is it to just keep up on security patches for old browsers?

    It's not a question of being "hard" or not - maintaining another platform/configuration simply takes time and resources. As I understand, on top of that there was a big deprecation of API calls moving from 10.4, so they also need specialized people that know their way around and systems that have 10.4 installed ready for testing.

    When a user reports a problem on 10.4, someone has to spend a day trying to reproduce it and find its way through old code ...

    Build breaks because of old forgotten code made for 10.4 ...

    At this point it's purely a business decision - keeping support for 10.4 adds the need for X extra developers and delays releases for Y days. Is it worth the cost?

  53. Re:Phasing out support for 10.4? I still run 10.3! by BZ · · Score: 1

    Mozilla offers Firefox 3.6 on Tiger too.

    The question is what Firefox whatever-the-next-version-is will be offered on, and the right comparison there is to Safari 5. Which will be offered.... somewhere. Who knows where.

  54. Re:Phasing out support for 10.4? I still run 10.3! by RebelWebmaster · · Score: 1

    Why are browser security updates such a big deal to you when you're running an OS that hasn't gotten any in ages?

  55. Oh, that explains Tiger. by hey! · · Score: 1

    I thought he had some kind of uncontrollable sex addiction. Now I see he's just been turned out to stud.

    --
    Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
  56. Re:Phasing out support for 10.4? I still run 10.3! by Swift2001 · · Score: 1

    Your friends did not buy 'new' Macbooks running 10.4 in 2008. They shipped with 10.5 at that time, and if not, they'd be eligible for a $10 upgrade disk. Apple brought out Tiger in April 2005. And Leopard came out in October 2007.

    Go with Leopard if you can. You may have your upgrade path ended there, but it will be supported for a long time.

  57. Mac Faithful have a different question... by argent · · Score: 1

    But if you ask about whether Firefox should feel more like a "native" Mac app, you'd get a lot of Mac faithful saying "ditch Tiger if that's standing in the way".

    How about "replace all that XUL [expletive] with the Camino shell"?

    I wouldn't be using FF at all, except that there's a problem with proxy URL handling that's worse in Camino than Firefox.

  58. Re:Phasing out support for 10.4? I still run 10.3! by trouser · · Score: 1

    OSX 10.0 - released March 2001. Unsupported since the release of 10.2 in August 2002.
    Windows XP - released October 2001. Can't buy it in the shops anymore but it's still supported.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_XP#Support_lifecycle

    On April 8, 2014, all Windows XP support, including security updates and security-related hotfixes will be terminated.

    --
    Now wash your hands.
  59. Re:Phasing out support for 10.4? I still run 10.3! by jeremyp · · Score: 1

    A shame. I know people who bought nice new Macbooks running 10.4 in 2008

    No you don't. OS X 10.5 was released in October 2007. Any new Macbook bought in 2008 would have shipped with it.

    As of now, 10.5 is nearly two and a half years old. By the time Firefox 3.6 stops getting patched, (end of 2011?) it will be about four years old.

    --
    All I want is a secure system where it's easy to do anything I want. Is that too much to ask ~~ Randall Munroe
  60. obviously by commodoresloat · · Score: 1

    the evil bit was set to "0"

  61. Re:Premature? Depends .... by yuhong · · Score: 1

    Yea, the 9x series of Windows is very different from the NT series. It is just that it happened that the last release in the 9x series (Me) was released after NT 5.0 (Win2000) was released, thus Win2000 had none of Me's features. It was XP that finally stopped development of 9x series and merge most of the feature of the last release into the NT series, and split the server editions into a separate line.

  62. Re:Phasing out support for 10.4? I still run 10.3! by yuhong · · Score: 1

    You mean the kind who are shackled to a desk 9-5 with a strict 30 minute lunch break, and get kicks out of really awesome spreadsheets? You can keep your "real coffee" and your fucking suit, I'll stick to working a job that is flexible around me, not the other way around.

    Yea, kind of off-topic to discuss this here.

  63. First Accenture, now Mozilla? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't think I ever saw any of his ads for Firefox though.

  64. kde is pretty good by emj · · Score: 1

    not a big fan but KDE shipped with the latest Ubuntu is pretty stable. Lots of stuff I don't need but it has been rock stable over the last month for me.

  65. Re:Seems like a waste by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The nursery rhyme above is actually an old racist saying from our dead brothers in the Southeastern United States. It is about searching out and recapturing escaped slaves.

    No, it's not. For one thing, it's an ip dip. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ip_dip

    One major theory about the origins of the rhyme is that it is descended from Old English or Celtic counting, as can be seen in the East Anglian Shepherd's count, "Ina, mina, tehra, methera" or the Cornish "Eena, mea, mona, mite".[1] The first American record of a similar rhyme is from about 1815, when children in New York are said to have repeated the rhyme:
    Hana, man, mona, mike;
    Barcelona, bona, strike;
    Hare, ware, frown, vanac;
    Harrico, warico, we wo, wac.[1]
    The rhyme seems to have been unknown in England among collectors until the late nineteenth century, although it was found by Henry Bolton in the USA, Ireland and Scotland in the 1880s.[1] He also found a similar rhyme in German:
    Ene, tene, mone, mei,
    Pastor, lone, bone, strei,
    Ene, fune, herke, berke,
    Wer? Wie? Wo? Was?[1]
    Another possibility is that the British occupiers of India brought a doggerel version of an Indian children's rhyme used in the game of carom billiards:
    ubi eni mana bou,
    baji neki baji thou,
    elim tilim latim gou.[3]

  66. It's a point of terminology by tepples · · Score: 1

    NeXTstep used the PostScript model for the display and called it "Display PostScript". I'm aware that Mac OS X uses a model based closely on PDF for screen display and called it Quartz. But can you give a reliable source that Apple actually called Quartz "Display PDF", or is "Display PDF" just a nickname given by NeXT fans familiar with Display PostScript? The closest thing I can find when using Google to search Apple.com for the phrase "display pdf" is PDF Kit, a control used to display a PDF document.

  67. Re:Phasing out support for 10.4? I still run 10.3! by danielsfca2 · · Score: 1

    who bought nice new Macbooks running 10.4 in 2008

    Not bloody likely, since Leopard came out in October 2007.

    Well, if you must have the latest possible Firefox while keeping the oldest possible hardware, you could just run Linux on your 6-year-old iBook. Nobody's putting a gun to your head to make you use a certain OS. But I can't imagine it's much fun to browse the web with it. I would assume flash slaughters it. But then again you're using Firefox so maybe if you tricked it out with all kinds of ad and flash blocking it would be useful-ish. As long as you stayed away from too many DOM-manipulating fancy webapps.

    I have plenty of respect for older computers (I was sad when my little 12" PowerBook G4 finally died last year) but honestly I'd much rather Mozilla spends their resources making new features and improving performance for the 90% than catering to the 10% who are too cheap (no offense--i'm just sayin') to buy new hardware (or even OS) more than once per decade. This is the fourth laptop I've had since yours was new, and I'm far, far, far from rich. I find that keeping up to date with hardware improves my experience and helps me get things done faster. YMMV.

  68. Re:Alternative solution to marginalization of v10. by danielsfca2 · · Score: 1

    I feel that spending my money on an upgrade is just not worth it. When the time comes that the majority of Mac OS X apps would no longer work on v10.4, I'll just reformat my MacBook and replace its OS with FreeBSD.

    Time is money. Don't you place any value on your own time? Surely it takes a few hours to do a full backup, install a new OS, find replacements for apps you had on your old OS, fix any driver issues that come up...Really, after all that time, you think you'll come out ahead? When you could just buy Snow for like $40, pop it in, do an upgrade (1 hour max and it's primarily unattended time), and suddenly all your apps work and get upgrades again, and your hardware is still fully supported? I get your "if it ain't broke" argument but you're basically saying "It ain't broke, except for the fact that less and less software works for it these days." Well what else is the OS there for but to run software, right?

    I'm not trying to be a fanboy about it, I would caution you of the same thing if you were thinking of blowing away a BSD environment you'd used for 4 years to put on OS X. Perhaps at least give it a shot. Why not download an ISO of Snow, spend the few minutes doing an upgrade, and if you like it you won't have reservations buying it. If you hate it then go ahead and wipe it out and go for FreeBSD and you're not out any money or any serious time.