Infinity Ward Lead Developers Axed Unexpectedly

RogueyWon writes "Kotaku is reporting that Infinity Ward, the development studio behind Modern Warfare 2, has been at the center of strange events recently. Jason West and Vince Zampella, two lead developers, have been fired by parent company Activision for 'breaches of contract and insubordination.' Speculation is rife as to the reasons behind this; following Modern Warfare 2's spectacular sales figures, it seems unlikely that the studio's performance could be to blame."

Comments

Activision

[sopssa]

It's Robert A. Kotick's business plan. Infinity Ward didn't want to work on more Modern Warfare games, as they previously stated, so Activision got angry as they obviously want to milk the cash cow more. It's even worse than how EA releases sports games every year (which still make sense to sports fans).

- business strategy focused on developing intellectual property which can be exploited over a long period, occasionally to the exclusion of creating new, risky or niche titles.
- he stated that focusing on franchises that "have the potential to be exploited every year on every platform with clear sequel potential and have the potential to become $100 million franchises"
- "We have a real culture of thrift. The goal that I had in bringing a lot of the packaged goods folks into Activision about 10 years ago was to take all the fun out of making video games." Kotick later stated he tries to promote an atmosphere of "skepticism, pessimism, and fear" in his company and, "We are very good at keeping people focused on the deep depression."

Yeah, Activision sounds just lovely. I just keep wondering why Vivendi doesn't put them in shape, but probably it brings money in now. I just hope Activision dies quickly. At least EA has started to bring some innovation again.

Earlier Activision gave trouble to Brutal Legend developers, and they said it good:

Getting mad at Activision for this kind of thing is like getting mad at an ape for throwing feces. It's just how the beast communicates.

Re:Activision

[Anonymous Coward]

Would you care to cite where you copied that "business strategy" from?

Re:Activision

[radish]

That last bullet point was a widely misquoted joke, as plenty of people who were on the call in question have confirmed.

Re:Activision

[fusiongyro]

The games industry as a whole treats their programmers like crap. As a matter of fact, every romanticized occupation with a ton of people lined up outside the door treats their employees poorly. Apple pays less than their Silicon Valley neighbors because they get more applications and the job has that mystique. Coveted jobs = lower pay, higher stress, worse working conditions, more hours, etc.

Re:Activision

[Anonymous Coward]

Cry me a fucking river and welcome to the real world. Working for "fun" is an illusion and a great ammo for management to underpay you.

Re:Activision

[sopssa]

They're from the wikipedia article I linked, and it has the cites in it.

Re:Activision

[longacre]

EA releases sports games every year (which still make sense to sports fans)

Before consoles were connected to the Internet, it made sense because you always wanted to have the latest rosters and usually the graphics would get incrementally better. These days the quality of the graphics has pretty much plateaued nd game play remains more or less the same. Now that these things can be updated online, there's no compelling reason for releasing new games every year other than to make money, very much like college text books.

Re:Activision

[twidarkling]

Here you go: http://www.joystiq.com/2009/09/14/activision-ceo-talks-console-less-guitar-hero-turning-fear-into/

Now for the promised strange and, yes, disturbing comments on Kotick's part. What may have been music to bean counters' ears still has ours ringing, as he described tailoring developer bonuses to "really [reward] profit and nothing else" and how an air of "skepticism, pessimism, and fear" is promoted within the company with the goal of "keeping people focused on the deep depression." You know, so they focus on profit and nothing else. It's all to plan, though, seeing as Kotick confided that, "The goal that I had in bringing a lot of the packaged goods folks into Activision about 10 years ago was to take all the fun out of making video games."

Re:Activision

[amicusNYCL]

It's pretty tough when he links to the page with all those quotes on it, isn't it?

Re:Activision

[Lumpy]

WEll then I better not have any more fun here at work.

Oh wait I dont work for assholes.. I guess that is the key to "working for fun"

Re:Activision

[assemblyronin]

- "We have a real culture of thrift. The goal that I had in bringing a lot of the packaged goods folks into Activision about 10 years ago was to take all the fun out of making video games." Kotick later stated he tries to promote an atmosphere of "skepticism, pessimism, and fear" in his company and, "We are very good at keeping people focused on the deep depression."

Well firing your top two devs will certainly help you with that goal. Imagine anyone's review, "You think you're *that* special? Shit son, we just fired our top two guys, now work 90 hours a week without over-time or you're out the door too!"

Sadly, since this is the gaming industry, this cheese wad Kotick will not only get away with this abusive behavior, but he'll be rewarded (like you said, it brings in money). In most other industries, when a CEO tries to create a similar culture, the good people jump ship right away (go to the competition, or start their own company), and the average people jump ship as soon as the economy improves, and this works to punish the company by losing a lot of brain power. However, in the gaming industry, all you have to do is license an engine, hire and teach someone from the endless supply of sucker.. er.. talented prospects, and you're right back on track - abusing the new employee.

Re:Activision

[PopeRatzo]

It's always an interesting story when a big company decides to fire people who just made them a load of money.

When are game developers going to understand what the movie-making workers have known for many decades: That they need to be in a union.

Today, just about every body working on the movies you watch is organized. The writers, the directors, the cinematographers, the special-effects people. Notice that this has not "destroyed" the movie industry or even hurt profits one little bit. All it's done is provide some protection to the people who are actually bringing you the goods from the worst impulses of the flabby asses who sit in the boardrooms and CEO suites.

As we've seen with Germany, having the entire workforce unionized is not only good for the workers, but it's good for business and it's good for the entire country's economy. Germany is probably the country in the world with the most favorable labor laws and the strongest unions. Yet, they are also the NUMBER ONE EXPORTING NATION, with exports almost 300% of China's. They're also the country in the EU that has the biggest trade surplus and the most cash in the coffers. When they bail out Greece, it's going to be Germany that puts up the dough.

Here's my new political slogan:
"Socialism: It's Good for Business

Re:Activision

[Danse]

That last bullet point was a widely misquoted joke, as plenty of people who were on the call in question have confirmed.

Only in the "it's funny because it's true" sense.

Re:Activision

[Greg_D]

The higher your talent level is, the more likely you're going to enjoy your job, simply because you have more options.

I know being a fry cook is tough for you, but chin up, soon you'll be working the burger line.

Re:Activision

[NeutronCowboy]

He's working really hard to turn that joke into serious business.

Re:Activision

[Anonymous Coward]

It scares me that Starcraft 2 is under this CEO's umbrella.

Re:Activision

[Bakkster]

Yeah, Activision sounds just lovely. I just keep wondering why Vivendi doesn't put them in shape, but probably it brings money in now. I just hope Activision dies quickly. At least EA has started to bring some innovation again.

And that's the rub. By focusing on time-tested franchises that are basically guaranteed to be profitable, rather than new properties, they increase revenues and reduce risk. Both are good from a corporate standpoint, in general. Unfortunately, creativity doesn't always pay the bills. It just drives home that Activision is a production company that happens to specialize in games, rather than a game publisher.

That said, Kotick obviously understands the downsides of this approach. He even stated he regretted not buying (Rockband Developer) Harmonix when he had the chance. At some point he needs to expand his franchises, and by being too conservative he ended up passing up one of the best opportunities to come his way. I was expecting that would mean a more balanced approach to Activision's strategy going forward, but this IW shake-up makes me question that prediction...

Re:Activision

[revlayle]

Sounds like you hate your job...

Re:Activision

[Wyatt Earp]

300% of China?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_exports

People's Republic of China $1,194,000,000,000
Germany $1,187,000,000,000

Re:Activision

[Rich0]

I'm sure using names/rosters does incur some kind of licensing cost, so I don't actually have a big problem with charging for them. However, I do tend to agree with you that this should be more in line with a $1-10 DLC than a $70 new title.

Re:Activision

[Pojut]

I will say that it's reassuring that the Infinity Ward team was ready to move past Modern Warfare 2...they are obviously a talented group of people, and it would be nice to see them put together another high budget title that has nothing to do with Call of Duty.

It's weird...as EA has slowly been redeeming itself (they still have a long way to go, but they are better than they were), Activision has been taking over the role as "biggest douche in the industry".

Re:Activision

[Darth_brooks]

Infinity Ward didn't want to work on more Modern Warfare games, as they previously stated, so Activision got angry as they obviously want to milk the cash cow more.

You'd think companies would learn that Activision knows best, especially after those morons at Harmonix jumped ship to do their own thing. Did anything ever happen with that whole "guitar hero with other instruments" thingie they wanted to do?

Re:Activision

[Pojut]

Soon you'll be working the burger line.

You know what the funny thing about this stereotype is? Burger line workers at McDonald's make the most money, besides the shift managers. In fact, the money they make isn't bad considering what their job involves. When I worked at McDonalds when I was 16 (almost 10 years ago...geez) the sandwich line guys made something like $8.50 an hour. Keep in mind, that was between 1999 and 2000...

True, it isn't much...but it isn't bad, all things considered.

Re:Activision

[hardburn]

I'm surprised he's so forthright about it. The modern office environment of cubefarms is deliberately designed to induce at least a little stress, because stress tends to focus your efforts in a step-by-step manner.

This method actually makes sense for most office jobs and perhaps even the "codemonkey" developers who generally only work on one part of a larger design at any given time. It's absolutely counterproductive to those who need to make software designs, and I'd imagine even more so for game designs. Those are creative tasks where focus and stress is the enemy. When being creative, you need to see how each portion fits together in a larger system. Step-by-step focus is unhelpful.

Interesting reading on the subject: http://www.the-programmers-stone.com/about/

Re:Activision

[TheLink]

So far it seems the joke is that it's true.

> The goal that I had in bringing a lot of the packaged goods folks into Activision about 10 years ago was to take all the fun out of making video games.

e.g.
Firing lead developers of a rather successful game.
Shutting down a fan-made game (even though allegedly the developers were given permission to make it).

Re:Activision

[Anonymous Coward]

So they are about tied for raw export value. Now consider that there are 16 Chinese for every German. While you also have to consider that the two countries are at different stages of development, to just say they are neck and neck for exports isn't really being honest about it. (You could also consider geographic area instead of per capita productivity since natural resources are a big part of export activity, in which case the ratio is even bigger, 27 to 1 in China's favor). I think it's pretty darn hard to argue that Germany's not doing something right/better than most other nations.

Re:Activision

[Pojut]

Oh, and also for the record, I LOVED working at McDonalds when I was younger. I was the only native English speaker in the store, so I got put on the "first" register for the drive through...that meant I got to sit in that little hole taking drive-through orders and taking money. It was AWESOME. Take money from the guy parked at the window while entering the next order. Didn't have to worry about putting food together, dealing with customers wanting extra stuff, dealing with a slippy floor or a hot kitchen...it really was a lot of fun. I only made $6 an hour, but all I needed the money for was putting gas in my truck and getting a little something building up for when I moved out.

I only worked there a little over a year, but it was a TON of fun. Having fun working there required nothing more than realizing that problem customers were bitching about cheese and french fries. CHEESE. AND. FRENCH. FRIES. How sad does your life have to be to complain about fast food? Obviously worse than working at McDonalds, ha!

Re:Activision

[HermMunster]

A company is legally liable if they list the reason for termination, especially since none of it has been proven. All a company can legally state is that the person was employed and that they are no longer with the company as of a specific date.

I worked for a company that terminated all the developers. They came in to find the doors to their offices rekeyed and locked.

Companies can terminate you for any reason at any time unless contractually obligated to do so otherwise.

Yes, Activision was quite heavy handed on this one.

The employees that were fired are highly employable. If Activision is the company releasing the reasons why they are likely in for a big lawsuit while those employed try hard to recover their reputation.

Re:Activision

[spun]

Socialism is good for progress. In a climate of rapidly changing technology, a country has to be able to shift gears quickly. Whole outmoded industries need to be able to just die painlessly, without hurting the people in those industries. We need a social safety net so that people can leave old, obsolete careers without fear, and educational programs that will enable us to rapidly retool our society to take advantage of the next big thing.

Re:Activision

[jalefkowit]

Get a union.

Seriously!

Hollywood actors, screenwriters and directors all have strong unions. And when they strike (as the writers did in 2007), they are not easily replaced. If Joss Whedon walks off the set you can't just grab some random schmuck off the street to replace him.

Game developers are creative people too. They have just as much leverage as the showbiz creatives in New York and LA do. All they need to do to stop being treated like crap is to exercise it.

Re:Activision

[Monkeedude1212]

Thats exactly the kind of attitude I'd expect from someone who has never worked for fun.

The idea of "working for fun" is in most cases, a "you are your own boss", kind of situation. All entertainment industries are highly based on this premise. A developer has an idea for a game, a director has an Idea for a movie, an Artist has an Idea for a song. Their paycheck might come from the CEO of the Game company, the movie studios, or the music label, but for the most part they have complete and utter freedom to do things as they see fit.

On occaison you'll see a band terminate their contract because they had "artistic differences" with the music label. Meaning the label wanted to force the kind of music a band makes. In semi rare cases, they'll start their own music label (See Jay-Z).

This is simply a reflection of that. Infinity Ward Developers had some artistic differences with Activision. They can just as easily get a job anywhere else, but in all honesty, I could see those 2 guys, and a handful of guys in infinity ward leaving Activision for a fulfilling new career in a brand new startup, led by these 2 devs.

Re:Activision

[Midnight Thunder]

I will say that it's reassuring that the Infinity Ward team was ready to move past Modern Warfare 2...they are obviously a talented group of people, and it would be nice to see them put together another high budget title that has nothing to do with Call of Duty.

The only way to get out of a franchise is to jump ship and create a new company. You are essentially taking a risk that the current company won't. The other thing is only create a new game engine if you have the time talent and a real need. Too many game companies have been hurt by putting too much effort into a new game engine, when they had neither the talent or the cash do to so.

Re:Activision

[Hurricane78]

Of if I understand this right (and I’m very sure I do), their plan is to completely and totally remove all creativity, and just focus on milking cash cows... Which of course makes no sense, since after a few iterations, they will be empty and their business, now unable to come up with new ideas, will die.

Yeah, short-term cash with complete ignorance of long-term sustainability is all the craze nowadays. It’s managers that just care to look good until they move on to the next company, leaving the last to collapse like a house of cards. And so on.

If you are someone who still owns a company, and still has the power to steer it, be aware of those types. Be very aware. They will burn your business to the ground. Even if it took you your whole life to build it up.

Re:Activision

[Pojut]

I could see those 2 guys, and a handful of guys in infinity ward leaving Activision for a fulfilling new career in a brand new startup, led by these 2 devs.

I really hope this is what happens...the fact that they stood up for what they believed and didn't want to continue diluting the franchise (despite the inevitable big paycheck it would likely include) means they aren't just talented, but actually care about what they produce.

Just because you are talented doesn't automatically make you passionate, and vice versa. These guys are apparently talented AND passionate, an awesome combination when it comes to game developers. Between their work experience and their drive, they could likely assemble one hell of a team.

Re:Activision

[Sperbels]

It was AWESOME. Take money from the guy parked at the window while entering the next order. Didn't have to worry about putting food together, dealing with customers wanting extra stuff, dealing with a slippy floor or a hot kitchen...it really was a lot of fun.

Actually, that sounds really boring. Unless you could sit there and play video games or goof off with friends I think I'd go mad doing that for a year.

Re:Activision

[paiute]

Get a union.

Seriously!

Hollywood actors, screenwriters and directors all have strong unions. And when they strike (as the writers did in 2007), they are not easily replaced. If Joss Whedon walks off the set you can't just grab some random schmuck off the street to replace him.

Game developers are creative people too. They have just as much leverage as the showbiz creatives in New York and LA do. All they need to do to stop being treated like crap is to exercise it.

As I recall, when the writers struck, they were supported by agents, actors, politicians, and many other unions. This gave the other side incentive to negotiate.

Who would go out on a financial limb to support striking game creators?

Re:Activision

[zapakh]

Can we call it a guild though (as the writers do)? Guilds are much cooler than unions.

Re:Activision

[dziban303]

I don't think EA pays anybody for rosters and whatnot.

Then again, I didn't RTFA all the way through. RTFAATWT?

Re:Activision

[Pojut]

Not really. Back in my teens, I loved interacting with people. Pulling a number out of the air, I'd say that close to 1/4 of our customers during the dinner shift (which is what I worked) were regulars...people that showed up 2 or more times a week. It was cool once I started getting to know them.

My job required listening to two different people at the same time (window and ordering speaker), calculate change, AND entering an order all at the same time. It was a bit hectic...but still a lot of fun :-)

Re:Activision

[grasshoppa]

If anything, this is a great example of why they shouldn't be unionized. Yes, they got fired. And yes, there appears to be some weird shit going on with it. What might have happened with a union though?

Management would have made their lives hell until they quit. Nothing verifiable, certainly, but little things here and there until the developers left on their own.

Compare that to now, and you'll see that the workers actually experience less stress this way than if they were unionized.

The answer is never "unions!"; very often it's the problem.

Re:Activision

[Mongoose Disciple]

As long as many more people want to be game developers than can be, most game developers are considered very, very replaceable. I have to think it's hard to make a union work in an environment like that.

This is much less true for, for example, people who have been in the industry ten years and have shipped multiple successful titles -- but those people are relatively fewer and farther between.

Re:Activision

[Wyatt Earp]

And if people don't produce enough, well they can just be denied food. Especially the people in rural areas, how dare they keep food from the working masses in the Blue States. We will send folks that are anti-socialist to Montana or Alaska.

Look how well socialist progress worked for Northern Ireland with the brilliant DeLorean Motors project, or how the kibbutz and moshav systems are spreading like wildfire in Israel. Look at how changing gears has bridged the divide between the rural and urban classes in China.

Re:Activision

[magus_melchior]

The key difference between programmers and actors/screenwriters/directors is that big publishing houses like Activision probably regard them as expendable. I'm sure the bean counters figure if the geeks organize, they'll just fire them and hire cheap replacements in China/India.

Which would be just as well, because the quality of the product and support will plummet, ensuring the death of the beast.

Re:Activision

[Anonymous Coward]

As I recall, when the writers struck, no one cared to the point that the writers where worried and people like Josh Whedon went off to try some fabulously new stuff like Dr Horrible.

Re:Activision

[Anonymous Coward]

Not true at all. Normally people don't want to work in a job with lower pay, higher stress, and worse working conditions. It will drive down the willingness to work at said job, and its no longer coveted. Lots of people like working at jobs where they treat their employee's nicely. Like google.

Re:Activision

[jimbolauski]

Great idea I always loved the idea of somebody who I have never meet negoating my salary on my behalf and not getting a final say all while taking a cut of my pay check because they said they did a good job.

Re:Activision

[Anonymous Coward]

While I do agree with Unions (I'm currently batteling with my soon to be ex employer via a Union) you kinda lost me on Germany's current money situation. Germany has been in big troubles with EU, only reason I can fathom they aren't right now is because everyone else around them have begun to tank - joke around here has been that WW3 was about to start since Germany was facing bankruptcy.

Re:Activision

[jimbolauski]

When I think of progress I think of North Korea, China, Cuba, and Venezuela socalism has made them great at adapting. And nothing is better at handleing change then the USPS they always handle the holiday rush so well.

Re:Activision

[jimbolauski]

North Korea did a good job handleing food shortages in rural areas they told their people to go eat grass.

Re:Activision

[K. S. Kyosuke]

God I hate virgins.

Well - obviously - if you loved them, you would be praising Allah.

Re:Activision

[shutdown -p now]

What you describe isn't really socialism, though; it's socially conscious capitalism.

Re:Activision

[K. S. Kyosuke]

Yeah, you gotta love people with a:before { content: "Don't click on this -> " } in their custom browser CSS stylesheets...

Re:Activision

[nacturation]

Who would go out on a financial limb to support striking game creators?

First of all the union would support the strikers via strike pay which varies based on country, union, etc. but could be 2/3 of normal pay. Secondly, governments have enacted some pretty strong labor laws. You can't fire striking employees and simply go out and hire new people to replace them even if their job is trivially replaced (eg: a window cleaner). That applies even more for a developer who is difficult to replace due to the learning curve of jumping into a specialized software project midstream.

Re:Activision

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, because there's obviously only one way of applying socialism, and there's obviously no such thing as a mixed economy. That's why Germany failed about as badly as the Soviet Union, and there are bread queues in front of every shop in Scandinavia... hold on.

The irony of the matter is that those red states where the Tea Parties mass are actually heavily subsidized by the blue states. Farm subsidies are just one example; military spending, another.

Re:Activision

[spun]

You do know the red states take more Federal money than they pay in taxes, right? Funny how people always like socialism that benefits them, isn't it? Funny how they can feed from the trough, and at the same time, claim it is immoral to feed from the trough, so no one else should.

http://www.taxfoundation.org/research/show/266.html

Look how well socialism worked to turn a subsistence level farming community into an industrial powerhouse in under fifty years:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation

DeLorean? How was that remotely socialist?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeLorean_Motor_Company

The Kibbutzim? Okay, well, that was socialism, but the situation is complex, and the failures of the kibbutzim is not necessarily an indictment of socialism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kibbutz

That all being said, flamebait? Really? I hate it just as much when it happens to people I disagree with as when it happens to me. "Flamebait" and "Troll" are not synonymous to "I disagree." I don't need your help, reactionary mods, I can make my arguments just fine without your 'helpful' down-moderation of my opponents.

Re:Activision

[Anonymous Coward]

It's all about economics and scarcity. High supply => lower price point.

Re:Activision

[Sabriel]

The english language is amazing - people can discuss a topic (e.g. "socialism") yet be completely unaware they're each talking about something completely different. :)

Re:Activision

[Tronster]

I had a fastfood job one summer, needed money for car insurance since I blew it all on a 386dx-40.

The job was okay, but I wouldn't say "fun" and I was reprimanded for my one attempt to liven it up by making smiley faces in mustard. (Burger King rules: 3 rings ketchup, 2 rings mustard; no smiley faces!)

Working full-time in the games industry is much more fun, even with crunch. Besides paying better (well less than other IT jobs) It's more creative, and you know you're making the world a better place... or at least a more fun place.

Re:Activision

[spun]

What is socialism, then? Look at most of the countries that consider themselves socialist democracies, and you will see they attempt to function as I've described. Socialism is not communism, it does not mean collective control over all resources, and it does not mean the state owns all property.

Re:Activision

[PopeRatzo]

Those are estimates for 2009, that do not take into account China's artificially managed currency.

The figure of 300% comes from Deloitte's industry group, after taking into account currency valuations.

And even that doesn't take into account the fact that China is 1200% more populous than Germany.

So, a country with 1/12th the population exports more manufactured goods than China (by the last verified listings), and my point is that it's done with the most unionized workforce in the world.

That should put an end to all of the anti-labor union FUD that gets thrown around.

Re:Activision

[PopeRatzo]

It's funny how people who are trying to demonize socialism only see North Korea and seem to ignore all the European countries who have used socialist policies to such excellent result, including Germany, which is doing much better economically than the US atm.

Re:Activision

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you have any idea how many Developers are Ron Paul libertarians that think Somalian Anarchy is the highest utopia available to man?

Unions? That would be too capitalistic for them.

Re:Activision

[shutdown -p now]

Socialism is not communism, it does not mean collective control over all resources, and it does not mean the state owns all property.

Actually, the classic definition of socialism is precisely collective (which doesn't necessarily mean state - it would be commune in anarcho-socialism) ownership of means of production, and collective administration of resources.

Communism is much more than that - it's supposed to be a classless and stateless society where any such collective ownership does not have to be enforced, and is inherent in the behavior of all members of the society.

By definitions above, there is a line between "market socialism" and "social capitalism". The former is when some amount of free trade is permitted, but not with respect to means of production and natural resources. A typical showcase would be late Tito's Yugoslavia.

"Social capitalism" is where you can actually buy and sell factories and land, for example, but where all business transactions are regulated to ensure that they do not cause unacceptable harm to the society at large - this is what most Western countries today are.

By the way, while I'm at nitpicking the terms, there is a difference between "social democracy" (which is what most countries actually label themselves) and "socialist democracy".

The reason why I go into this kind of nitpicking is because, for too many people, socialism in its pure sense is unacceptable, and when you use the word merely to denote some socially conscious policies, you get an extremely negative reaction. Just look at some of the replies to your original post - I see someone has already brought up Cuba and North Korea...

Re:Activision

[PopeRatzo]

people can discuss a topic (e.g. "socialism") yet be completely unaware they're each talking about something completely different.

Sabriel, the people who are using North Korea as an example of "socialism" are actually quite aware of the disinformation they're spreading.

They do it because people below the age of 50 just don't respond to the scary FUD about "socialism" that the Right relied upon during the second half of the 20th century.

Anybody who's done a little traveling or read a few books knows that "socialism" is quite successful in industrialized, western nations.

The people who try to spread the FUD are still depending upon ignorance to try to spread their lies.

Re:Activision

[Ma8thew]

Luckily for unionised workers that is usually illegal.

Re:Activision

[PopeRatzo]

When I think of progress I think of North Korea, China, Cuba, and Venezuela socalism

Why do you ignore Germany, UK, France, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Israel, Italy and the many very successful socialist countries?

These are countries who have adopted various degrees of socialist policies and still maintain high levels of personal liberty, private innovation, and middle-class wealth.

Plus, nobody has to go broke and lose their homes just because a family member gets cancer.

Re:Activision

[Ma8thew]

So you do a better job negotiating your salary on your own? If you talk to your boss the best you can do is threaten to quit. A union can threaten to have all workers strike (and as a union those workers are protected from being fired). Don't like the union's negotiating? Luckily the workers elect the officials.

Re:Activision

[PopeRatzo]

Germany has been in big troubles with EU

You're way off.

Germany is about the only country in the EU that has any cash at all at the moment. That's why they're the ones everybody's looking to in order to solve Greece's problems.

Germany is at the top of the EU countries in terms of strong economies.

Re:Activision

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess he meant to say per capita they have 10x higher exports.

Re:Activision

[spun]

And your explanation here, that is what American conservatives mean when they call Obama's policies 'socialist,' is it?

Re:Activision

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

As long as many more people want to be game developers than can be, most game developers are considered very, very replaceable.

If it takes more than filling a chair to be a game developer, they're not so replacable.

Re:Activision

[Anonymous Coward]

Socialism is good for progress. In a climate of rapidly changing technology, a country has to be able to shift gears quickly. Whole outmoded industries need to be able to just die painlessly, without hurting the people in those industries. We need a social safety net so that people can leave old, obsolete careers without fear, and educational programs that will enable us to rapidly retool our society to take advantage of the next big thing.

Safety nets exist. They're called community colleges, trade schools, tutors, etc. When you notice your profession is becoming obsolete, get the education to do something else or get ready to retire. Safety nets result in people with no skills relying on the net. Society stagnates when this happens.

Re:Activision

[Anonymous Coward]

Socialism is good for progress. In a climate of rapidly changing technology, a country has to be able to shift gears quickly. Whole outmoded industries need to be able to just die painlessly, without hurting the people in those industries. We need a social safety net so that people can leave old, obsolete careers without fear, and educational programs that will enable us to rapidly retool our society to take advantage of the next big thing.

The naivete of this entire comment just made my head explode. Any large bureaucratic organization epitomizes painful change. In no way, shape, or form does any large group of people do anything easily. This goes for governments, businesses, and unions.

Re:Activision

[Hausenwulf]

I think your assumption is that the US is still doing capitalism. The US has way too much government interference to allow capitalism to work effectively.

Re:Activision

[spun]

Really now. Because modern research and experiment shows that people do not continue to rely on safety nets. People are motivated by ideals of fairness and reciprocity, not self interest. Look up games theory and games like the Dictator Game. People make choices, even when large sums of real money are on the line, that are not in their own self interest, but motivated by fairness.

Re:Activision

[shutdown -p now]

American conservatives deliberately lump the whole thing together precisely so that they can start with labeling Obama a "socialist", and then, once they have some agreement on that, proceed to demonstrate the "horrors of socialism" by example of USSR, China, North Korea and Cuba, and blame Obama of the same.

It's a very old, tried and true tactic - "fascist" is a similar broadly disused label that is used incorrectly and indiscriminately to associate political opponents with historical political ideology that elicits an immediate strong negative emotional reaction.

Re:Activision

[mog007]

I think Ubisoft is going to give Activision a run for their money as far as the douche title is concerned. This constantly online verification shit with Assassin's Creed 2 is Ubisoft taking a look at EA and saying "that's brilliant!"

Re:Activision

[spun]

Exactly, large groups of people, who have no other options and no real security, do not change. Large groups of people who are secure and have options do change. That was the whole point of my comment, but thank you for reiterating it in your own words, perhaps it will help some people understand what I was saying more clearly.

Re:Activision

[spun]

Good points, actually.

Re:Activision

[mattack2]

You can't fire striking employees and simply go out and hire new people to replace them even if their job is trivially replaced (eg: a window cleaner).

Which shows the evilness of unions.

Re:Activision

[Hausenwulf]

So you mean we're not talking about:

1. any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods.

2. a system of society or group living in which there is no private property or a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state.

3. a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done.

Thanks and a hat tip to Merriam-Webster :)

Re:Activision

[ravenshrike]

Which gets us Government Motors and Crapler

Re:Activision

[Anonymous Coward]

The trouble is, our faces and names aren't known to the people who buy games. Big name actors can call the shots a bit because they are seen to be bankable and people actually notice if they get fired half way through the movie.
    Unfortunately (at least, for us) you can't say the same about games developers. Publishers call the shots and they actively seek to keep the people who make them rich out of the limelight and strictly under their thumb. The only real way out is to go indie (and be good at it) but to do that you need a pot of cash. Most of us don't get paid enough to have a pot of cash, no matter how well the last game did. We earn enough to be comfortable but still a slave to the mortgage. Mort gauge, ha, the lower it is the closer you are to death.

Despite all that, I still actually like this job.

Re:Activision

[Bob Wehadababyitsabo]

This is where /. needs a (-1, Wrong) moderation option. I would mod troll, but instead, link.

"China’s snapshot of its January trade data on Wednesday came the morning after Germany released official data confirming that it hads lost its status as the world’s leading exporter.
Chinese exports amounted to $1.2 trillion in 2009, while German exports totaled $1.1 trillion, the German Federal Statistical Office said."

Re:Activision

[sabt-pestnu]

The time to form a union isn't "just in the nick of trouble", if you want it to have any resources to do things like strike pay. Even established unions have trouble with that, sometimes.

It gets even harder if the union is composed of only a single "shop"; if that shop goes on strike, there are no other shops that can support it during the strike.

And yes, unions bring in their own evils. You take the bad with the good.

Re:Activision

[Anonymous Coward]

300% of China?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_exports

People's Republic of China $1,194,000,000,000
Germany $1,187,000,000,000

You have not taken into account the population disparity between China and German.
China's Export $1,194,000,000,000
Germany's Export $1,187,000,000,000

China's Population: 1,338,612,968
Germany's Population: 81,757,600
China's Export amount per worker: $891.97
Germany's Export amount per worker: $14,518.53
This is using the 2010 estimations for population from wikipedia and 2009 estimations for exports, or we can just look at the exports per capita
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_exports_per_capita (From 2006)
Germany: $12,300
China: $572.

Hong Kong, which I suppose is the state you're trying to imply, is ahead of both. ($40,700)

Re:Activision

[meepzorb]

Which shows the evilness of unions..

Score one for Pavlov.

If you enjoy being treated like worthless meat whose sole purpose is to be exploited by others, good luck with that (and don't forget to pay the cover charge)...

...but that doesn't oblige the rest of us to lick the hands that feed, like dogs.

Re:Activision

[sabt-pestnu]

Part of the problem is that a programmer at work is someone sitting at a desk, writing code. When does the company have a result from that work? Days, weeks, months later.

A lack of Actors and screenwriters, by contrast, actively interferes with the work of the publisher, in a visible, measurable way. Similarly, the results of an assembly line worker striking are immediately apparent.

For programmers, then, the consequences of a strike are much less immediately apparent than for many other professions.

Several posts have mentioned "can't hire replacements for strikers". That's not precisely true.

Re:Activision

[Anonymous Coward]

Needed moderation: -1, Moron.

Re:Activision

[abigor]

What about unions that artificially restrict labour supply? I have a friend who is a movie cameraman. He had to join the union or else he could get no work - no studio was allowed to hire him, even if he was the best cameraman in the whole world. Nor could the studios fire bad or lazy cameramen and hire him instead. That sort of lock on labour mobility is just plain wrong.

Re:Activision

[abigor]

Do you belong to a union? It sure doesn't sound like it to me. I grew up in a mining town that was strongly unionised, and I can tell you that the workers had very little control over anything, including the "elected" officials. Massive corruption and self-interest ruled the day.

Re:Activision

[mattack2]

I should have used the term "anti-capitalism".

Re:Activision

[dougisfunny]

Doesn't the story demonstrate otherwise?

Re:Activision

[abigor]

It's important to note that while Scandinavia has an awesome social safety net, it does so by maintaining pretty much the lowest corporate tax rates in the Western world (personal taxes pay those bills). Low corporate tax rates don't sit well with many American socialists, who I find see corporations as enemies rather than partners.

Also, I can state from experience that there is a definite nanny-state feel to life in northern Europe. People who like a lot of freedom in life, whether it's home schooling of children, lower taxes, personal privacy, or whatever, won't like it there much.

Canada has a good balance - a decent safety net but lower taxes than the OECD average and tremendous personal privacy protection and personal freedom. It's not really a socialist country other than healthcare though, and even then, there is a parallel for-pay system. Union memberships are at an all-time low too.

Re:Activision

[Zot Quixote]

And Ford. Oh wait, that one's doing well, so we can't mention them. Unions aren't actually the root of all evil. People like to bash them, but they still do important things for the workers of the world.

Re:Activision

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

To me? No, not really. But I could end up eating my words by their next game release.

Re:Activision

[Ma8thew]

True, but there are plenty of companies where unions work. All I was addressing was the GP's belief that he could do a better job negotiating his salary than a union.

Re:Activision

[Anonymous Coward]

At least EA has started to bring some innovation again.

Oh, you mean 'innovation' like taking the ability to host your own server away from you? Innovation like that they can keep.

Re:Activision

[PitaBred]

It may have been a joke, but it wasn't misquoted. He still said it. Problem is that jokes have a way of turning into reality with someone like him at the helm

Re:Activision

[PaganRitual]

[1: General][Paganritual]:-- Are you tired of those exciting guilds with interesting projects and complicated
[1: General][Paganritual]:-- and thought-provoking problems? Get sick of teaming up with like-minded nerds
[1: General][Paganritual]:-- who want to talk about sci-fi, gaming, or combinations of the two? Wouldn't you
[1: General][Paganritual]:-- rather drop that low-level, challenging C++ code and move on up to the heroic
[1: General][Paganritual]:-- Visual Basic level? Code accounting software for minimum spec PCs with a
[1: General][Paganritual]:-- bunch of career programmers who don't even have a proper home email address?
[1: General][Paganritual]:-- My new guild {3021 - NO CURR3NT R3C0RD} is for you. In fact, even if this
[1: General][Paganritual]:-- doesn't interest you, can I offer people 25g for a guild sig? Maybe more, on like
[1: General][Paganritual]:-- a weekly basis if you just leave your character in the guild for a while? Because
[1: General][Paganritual]:-- I'm all alone here. I mean, this room is full of people ... but I'm so alone
[1: General][Paganritual]:-- ... so very alone ...

Re:Activision

[Anonymous Coward]

North Korea is a dictatorship and is only socialist in the sense that the great leader's policies make it impossible for individuals to help themselves. Don't confuse one man's ego and corruption with a political ideology that exists on a sliding scale.

Re:Activision

[kz45]

"Score one for Pavlov.

If you enjoy being treated like worthless meat whose sole purpose is to be exploited by others, good luck with that (and don't forget to pay the cover charge)... ...but that doesn't oblige the rest of us to lick the hands that feed, like dogs." ..and some people find a job somewhere else, rather than putting a stranglehold on the people that are employing us. You aren't entitled to a job or a specific wage. Just like companies aren't entitled to the work that you perform (or to have customers buy their products).

I would never join a union, because I don't want to be limited by the abilities of every other union member that works in my department. Unions seem to benefit people that are lazy/don't have the skills to get paid more than a decent wage.

They were once good, but are now a tool of the left to fuck over corporations and support specific political candidates (During Obama's campaign, I got at least 10 different unions calling me and telling me to vote for him). Hell, Obama gave the auto-industry over to the unions and had specific exceptions for them in the most recent health care bill.

If anyone is exploited, it's the union members. They become reliant on the Union and vote based on the fact that they don't want their fat benefits taken away. It's very similar to how the right uses churches and religion to sway the vote.

Re:Activision

[WrongMonkey]

Another posted pointed out your omission of European socialist countries. But more directly: China, Venezuela and Vietnam really have made substantial progress in the last 30 years. In terms of year-to-year growth, they're doing better than the US.

Re:Activision

[Creepy]

Realistically, he is a businessman, not a gamer, and just had to look at the Blizzard part of the business - they built three worlds and the lore to go with them and then milked the crap out of them (Diablo 1-2 + expansions and upcoming sequel, Starcraft 1 + expansions and upcoming sequel, Warcraft 1-3 + World of Warcraft and expansions). It would not surprise me in the least if the undisclosed MMORPG (the Jeff Kaplan raid centric project rumored to be a shooter of some kind) is based on Starcraft property, though I've heard rumor it isn't (well, I suppose one new IP every 15 years or so works in their business model - less if you consider Starcraft to not be a XXXcraft game or Diablo part of their original IP [it was acquired]). I don't think they have developed any IP outside of the big three since they were called Silicon and Synapse (and then the mostly bought it). If you think the rest of the industry is any different, look at the Microsoft-Bungie relationship - Microsoft basically said Bungie was going to make Halo games forever. Bungie said they would do one more, then would either have a huge exodus or split from Microsoft (they split and will publish using Microsoft as part of their agreement, as I recall). EA is no better. If you want original, wait for one of the big 3 to buy a small studio (big 4 if you consider Bethesda's parent, or the same-old, same-old model).

While it sucks that all he wants to do is have developers crank out unending sequels, Activision-Blizzard can afford to buy new IP whenever they want to and shelve studios when the old IP money dries up. It's sad, sorry business, but in many ways you can blame Hollywood big studios and their success in doing exactly the same thing. If James Cameron (the movies equivalent of what John Carmack is to games - both have whiz bang effects and action and poor to mediocre plots, but make millions catering to audiences that want just that - a plot as brain dead as a rollercoaster ride, but as fun as a rollercoaster ride as well) wasn't doing Avatar, the movie never would have been made because its much more lucrative to milk a franchise - just look at Batman or Superman or Star Wars or Die Hard. You can probably tell I wasn't too high on the anti-tech, neo-hippie Avatar plot that was about as intellectually stimulating as drinking draino, but it was pretty (to sum it up, the tree hugging blue giant smurfs are good, the white people minus the main protagonists are evil - its the Ewoks vs the Republic all over again, minus the fur).

I should also point out that some of the best and worst games of all times were sequels - for instance Zelda: The Wand of Gamelon and the 2006 Sonic the Hedgehog were considered terrible games, but the Ocarina of Time and most of the other Sonic games were fantastic (incidentally, I thought the original Zelda was lame, but a lot of people liked it...).

Re:Activision

[bluesatin]

Also see this great TED talk, Dan Pink on the surprising science of motivation: http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/dan_pink_on_motivation.html

Re:Activision

[Sabriel]

Well, given the examples just in this thread alone have included the Irish DeLorean Motor Company, Israel's kibbutzes, China's class gaps and North Korea, I suspect yes, at least some of us aren't. :)

Granted the OP certainly wasn't using socialism as the dictionary defines it, but OTOH a lot of people do think of socialism the OP's way ("To the ordinary working man, the sort you would meet in any pub on Saturday night, Socialism does not mean much more than better wages and shorter hours and nobody bossing you about" [George Orwell The Road to Wigan Pier]).

I do wonder what "dictionary word" one would use to describe an economic system in which capitalistic production/distribution is balanced with socialistic regulation/welfare.

Re:Activision

[kz45]

"It's funny how people who are trying to demonize socialism only see North Korea and seem to ignore all the European countries who have used socialist policies to such excellent result, including Germany, which is doing much better economically than the US atm."

I think we have a different definition of success. In Denmark, a highly socialized country, around 60% of your income goes towards taxes. In addition to this, everything is more expensive because of the VAT tax (all countries in the EU have this tax), so you have less money to spend overall.

Being able to make money is freedom to me because if you have enough money, you can go anywhere you want.

Some social programs are necessary, but too many breeds laziness and a lifetime reliance on the government.

Re:Activision

[kz45]

"Yes, because there's obviously only one way of applying socialism, and there's obviously no such thing as a mixed economy."

We already have a mixed economy here in the US. There are tons of social program already in place.

"The irony of the matter is that those red states where the Tea Parties mass are actually heavily subsidized [ohio-state.edu] by the blue states. Farm subsidies are just one example; military spending, another."

Well, the people that pay the most subsidies (IE: the rich) use them the least. Why don't we ever discuss this fact?

Re:Activision

[kz45]

"They do it because people below the age of 50 just don't respond to the scary FUD about "socialism" that the Right relied upon during the second half of the 20th century."

The reason they don't respond is:

1) They don't have very much experience
2) They have never experienced living in a country that is socialist
3) Many don't have jobs and/or are living with their parents and don't think about the fact that a large percentage of their paycheck is going to the government

"Anybody who's done a little traveling or read a few books knows that "socialism" is quite successful in industrialized, western nations."

Reading about socialism and vacationing in a socialist country is much different than living in one. I don't consider a 60% income tax a success. It is a sacrifice of freedom for comfort, which is the direct result of socialism.

"The people who try to spread the FUD are still depending upon ignorance to try to spread their lies."

Everyone that doesn't agree with you is "ignorant". That's why they don't have the same opinion..right?

Re:Activision

[kz45]

"Really now. Because modern research and experiment shows that people do not continue to rely on safety nets."

I'm not sure where you saw this "modern research", but most people take the path of least resistance.

"People are motivated by ideals of fairness and reciprocity, not self interest."

If this were true, we wouldn't need locks on our doors, or even a police force.

"Look up games theory and games like the Dictator Game. People make choices, even when large sums of real money are on the line, that are not in their own self interest, but motivated by fairness."

What works well in theory many times does not work well in practice.

Re:Activision

[Cederic]

I can definitely negotiate my salary better than a union. It's why I earn as much a union members 20 years senior to me.

What I can't do is negotiate redundancy terms as well as a union. Which is why the person 20 years senior to me will pick up 100k more than me if we're both made redundant.

Then again, if I were in the union he would do too; the union are representing his interests and not my own, and my membership of that union is utterly irrelevant to their position on that matter.

So fuck 'em, and lets stop them funding political parties too.

Re:Activision

[kz45]

"Exactly, large groups of people, who have no other options and no real security, do not change."

No, they do change because if they don't, they will be stuck with no options or security forever. Most people that I know that are in this position do everything in their power to better themselves.

"Large groups of people who are secure and have options do change."

If you are comfortable and secure, what's the purpose of changing? Changing requires lots of effort, which many times also needs a catalyst.

Re:Activision

[Rivalz]

Working for the top has its benefits for some. You can go to a lower end company and be the top man on staff. Or you can use it to get the girls. Tell them you worked for 2 years at EA Games. You have no idea of the things they made you do, no man should have to live through those horrors. Girls eat it up like cheese burgers. And the benefits!?! After you have worked for Apple (Who uses children for their factories http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/02/28/apple-child-labor-confess_n_479871.html Or EA Games and Activision who rapes your very soul. You can qualify for disability and Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome. The retirement plan is wonderful allowing you to live comfortably in a mental institution, moms basement, or underpass / bridge of your choosing.

Re:Activision

[farble1670]

i sort of think that it would be impossible these days for a new industry (in the USA) to unionize ... at least one that isn't required to be local like service or health care. sure, they can't "fire" unionized workers (easily, without reason), but they sure can lay you off and move operations over seas.

hiring game devs from other countries isn't going to be great in the short term, but in time it could ramp up and easily replace the local outfits. i am sure there was a time when people thought that no other country could produce steel as well as the US either. regardless, big software would rather ship poor quality games than have to treat their employees well.

i wonder what germany has to protect against that (seriously, i am asking).

Re:Activision

[Anonymous Coward]

While I agree with your sentiments, you chose the worst possible example to illustrate your point. Against all odds, the USPS is a very well run organization.

Re:Activision

[sznupi]

Thank gods they made few strategic errors back then and lost the war, imagine where they would be now otherwise; we would have a Terran Empire.

Wait...

Re:Activision

[mattack2]

I only worked there a little over a year, but it was a TON of fun. Having fun working there required nothing more than realizing that problem customers were bitching about cheese and french fries. CHEESE. AND. FRENCH. FRIES. How sad does your life have to be to complain about fast food? Obviously worse than working at McDonalds, ha!

If you mean that people blew it way out of proportion, I would agree. However, even fast food places should provide what the customer ordered. Why shouldn't someone be able to complain, in a reasonable way, if their order doesn't come out properly?

(For some reason this discussion makes me think of this tangential comment. While it seems very staged, and every episode has had basically the same progression, the show "Undercover Boss" has been interesting. Even though you could argue they're just trying to make an hour long ad that doesn't seem like an ad for their product, the bosses do seem to have had some realization that the various dictates from high up to line workers don't always make sense.)

Re:Activision

[Anonymous Coward]

What is socialism, then? Look at most of the countries that consider themselves socialist democracies, and you will see they attempt to function as I've described. Socialism is not communism, it does not mean collective control over all resources, and it does not mean the state owns all property.

True modern day fabian socialists, like Tony Blair and Gordon Brown, would disagree.

Re:Activision

[Lueseiseki]

It's actually verbatim from what he said in a Deutsche Bank Securities Technology Conference in San Francisco . (start reading after "[UPDATE]")

Re:Activision

[jimbolauski]

I do a better then average job my pay is better then average if I was in a union I would be paying someone to negotiate a lower salary so one of my lazy inept co-workers could make the same as me.

Re:Activision

[dinker]

These countries have a high quality of life because they are populated by Europeans, it`s nothing to do with their political systems.

Re:Activision

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know how much in taxes my employer has to pay, but here in Sweden, those taxes are only part of the picture.

My employer must give me 30 days paid holiday per year (since I'm on salary; otherwise they could get away with giving me only 25 days but then they'd have to pay overtime).

My employer must also provide paid parental leave; don't remember the exact duration, but IIRC it's 120 days for each new child (applies to both mothers and fathers).

My employer also pays a big chunk into my retirement and disability funds.

My employer also can't fire or lay me off without notice (90 days). In my case, since we were just acquired, the new owners must guarantee my job for at least 6 months following the acquisition.

I may be slightly wrong with regard to some of the exact figures, but that's the gist of it.

As for 'personal privacy', I don't see where that's lacking. It's true that anyone in the country can find out very easily where I live, my profession, employer, civil status, and income and tax information. It's just as true that I can find out these things about anybody else in the country -- if I want to know how much my boss or even the Prime Minister is worth, what kind of home he lives in, and how much he pays in taxes, a quick trip to Skatteverket (tax office) is all it takes.

There's none of that puritanical 'ZOMG you're gay/FSM/liberal/whatever' bullshit one has to endure in the US -- here, absolutely nobody cares who I sleep with (as long as she's at least 15 and it's consensual) or what my political or religious views are. THOSE things are considered private matters here, as well they should be.

(Actually, I'm hetero/Buddhist/Socialist. But you get the point.)

Re:Activision

[LuNa7ic]

Day one, Activision unexpectedly axes the heads of the studio that created CoD. Day Two, Activision announces that it is whoring out the IP for every last dollar ala Halo.

Coincidence? I think not.

Re:Activision

[drsquare]

When I think of progress I think of North Korea, China, Cuba, and Venezuela socalism has made them great at adapting

An interesting comparison would be comparing Cuba to its Latin American neighbours which have had US-style hyper-capitalism forced upon them. I suppose Haiti was first-world before the quake...

Re:Activision

[daver00]

They also, I believe, have the highest educated population in the world. You can't get to where Germany has gotten with a private-sector controlled education system either, so you can score two for Germany.

That said I have heard they have issues with people actually entering the workforce, since so many people stay on at university to complete a PhD, they all end up starting out in the workforce at around 30. Mind you it doesn't seem to be doing too much damage, although they have a smaller per capita gpd than Australia...

Re:Activision

[Ihmhi]

Aye, absolutely! I even have a potential name for you guys:

People Who Never Exclude Design.

Go Local 1337!

Re:Activision

[Ponyegg]

I would never join a union, because I don't want to be limited by the abilities of every other union member that works in my department. Unions seem to benefit people that are lazy/don't have the skills to get paid more than a decent wage.

So you won't mind handing back all those benefits and rights that Unions have fought for and won over the years, you know, like better working conditions, education reforms, paid holidays, healthcare etc. Do some research please before spouting off your baseless polemic, you sound like a throw back to the of 1800s. Really, this sort of me-me-me 'I'm alright Jack' attitude is indicative of a the selfish malaise that infects society. Lets see you get screwed over by a large company and see how you like it.

Re:Activision

[PopeRatzo]

Everyone that doesn't agree with you is "ignorant".

No, just the ones who try to put words in my mouth, like you.

I didn't say the poster was ignorant, I said he was "relying on ignorance to spread..lies".

Re:Activision

[metaforest]

Get a union.

Seriously!

Hollywood actors, screenwriters and directors all have strong unions. And when they strike (as the writers did in 2007), they are not easily replaced. If Joss Whedon walks off the set you can't just grab some random schmuck off the street to replace him.

Game developers are creative people too. They have just as much leverage as the showbiz creatives in New York and LA do. All they need to do to stop being treated like crap is to exercise it.

As I recall, when the writers struck, they were supported by agents, actors, politicians, and many other unions. This gave the other side incentive to negotiate.

Who would go out on a financial limb to support striking game creators?

How about the custies who love the game? Oh.. NVM... they live in Mommie's basement and smoke cloves.... they are worthless...
NOT....

If you love your entertainment creators then be prepared to defend them when that-bad-old-puddy-tat musses them up.

Re:Activision

[metaforest]

Problem is if you sell you ass to a union you get played for the pawn you are.

If you bend over for one "Man" you'll bend over for ALL MEN.

Unions are not a viable solution to the problem they claim to solve.

Re:Activision

[Satanboy]

[1: General][Paganritual]:-- Are you tired of those exciting guilds with interesting projects and complicated
[1: General] [Dksrcooler]:-- Wheres teh rare meat?
[1: General] [Ashtorath]:-- I got your meat
[1: General] [Pwnsyourmom]:-- lol
[1: General][Paganritual]:-- and thought-provoking problems? Get sick of teaming up with like-minded nerds
[1: General] [Sefirwrath]:-- ^+1
[1: General] [Dksrcooler]:-- u guys are diks
[1: General][Paganritual]:-- who want to talk about sci-fi, gaming, or combinations of the two? Wouldn't you
[1: General] [Pwnsyourmom]:-- lol
[1: General][Paganritual]:-- rather drop that low-level, challenging C++ code and move on up to the heroic
[1: General] [Sefirwrath]:--heh
[1: General][Paganritual]:-- Visual Basic level? Code accounting software for minimum spec PCs with a
[1: General][Paganritual]:-- bunch of career programmers who don't even have a proper home email address?
[1: General][Paganritual]:-- My new guild {3021 - NO CURR3NT R3C0RD} is for you. In fact, even if this
[1: General] [Ashtorath]:-- ur macro is slow
[1: General][Paganritual]:-- doesn't interest you, can I offer people 25g for a guild sig? Maybe more, on like
[1: General] [Sefirwrath]:--srsly
[1: General][Paganritual]:-- a weekly basis if you just leave your character in the guild for a while? Because
[1: General] [Dksrcooler]:-- doods I gots to find teh rare meat!!
[1: General][Paganritual]:-- I'm all alone here. I mean, this room is full of people ... but I'm so alone
[1: General][Paganritual]:-- ... so very alone ...
[1: General] [Pwnsyourmom]:-- rofl
[1: General] [Dksrcooler]:-- if i join ur guild will u show me wear to get teh meat?
[1: General] [Ashtorath]:-- I'll show you where to get teh meat
[1: General] [Pwnsyourmom]:-- pwned
[1: General] [Sefirwrath]:-- ^+1

fixed

Re:Activision

[metaforest]

Only one problem.....

Who is going to front money to a pair of developers who told their publisher to get stuffed?

That history of confrontation is going to make VCs queasy. They don't want more risk from principled developers... they want massive sales and residuals. Principled developers are a serious liability to ROI. No sane investor wants loose cannons between them and their unearned income.

Re:Activision

[Mongoose Disciple]

If it takes more than filling a chair to be a game developer, they're not so replacable.

It does, but not much more. They're still replacable enough.

There's a vicious cycle at work here: Because most of the developers in the game industry don't have a lot of game industry experience, they're considered (correctly, unfortunately) very replacable. Because developers are very replacable, there are few financial incentives for game companies to not work the hell out of them -- if you don't want to work 80 hour weeks in a constant "crunch time" death march, you can be easily be replaced by someone with not much less experience who will. Because working conditions are bad, game development has a high burnout rate and not a lot of people make it to level of seniority to be seen as more valuable and less replacable.

Re:Activision

[jackbird]

There are plenty of non-union productions - check craigslist's crew gigs in any major metro. However, they pay for shit and/or are run by shady people who abscond with the work and don't pay anybody. Which tells you something about why the unions exist.

Re:Activision

[jackbird]

How is that different from a screenwriter?

Re:Activision

[spun]

Look up games theory, read about games like the Dictator game. It isn't theory, it's documented fact. These experiments were carried out with months worth of salary in cash on the line. People act out of feelings of fairness and reciprocity, just not all people, and for most people, not all of the time. But it's very simple, and well documented.

Basically, about 5% of people are always selfish, while about 15% are always fair. The rest are fair by default, but if unfairness isn't punished then they will also act selfishly to avoid being taken advantage of. As our current society actually rewards selfishness, and the average person has no way of punishing unfairness, people in our society act selfishly.

If everyone had guaranteed food, water, and shelter, we wouldn't need locks. Survival trumps everything, people don't care about fairness and reciprocity if they are starving.

Re:Activision

[spun]

My point is that if you have a job, but you feel insecure about getting another, about your worth to society and your ability to provide for yourself and your family, you will not voluntarily give up that job just because the job has become useless to society.

People who are secure and comfortable would give up a useless job, look up Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. "Self Actualization' is at the top. If you've met all your other needs, you can focus on becoming the person you want to be. Nobody wants to be useless.

Re:Activision

[metaforest]

I gotta wonder why people resist the simple notion: If you give a living creature a CHOICE between a zero-sum game and
and a viable push. They will take the push every time. If you give them nothing but zero-sum solutions... they will fight to the death pretty much as soon as they realize they don't have any real choices to break even, let alone win.

The serious tragedy of the US for the last 40+ years, is how few people realize they are being offered no real solutions, and are really facing a zero-sum game. When that realization finally dawns on a significant portion of the people in this country.... it's likely to get very unpleasant for everyone in this country.

Re:Activision

[Kattspya]

Socialism, as defined by Marx/Engels, means more or less complete collective control over capital.

Why do you need to redefine socialism to mean something that already exists (social liberalism)?

Re:Activision

[spun]

Okay, call it social liberalism then. Here in America, people are calling it socialism. But then again, they call anything they don't want to pay for socialism.

Re:Activision

[Anonymous Coward]

Lower corporate taxes mean corporations can afford to pay their employees more, allowing employees to cover larger personal taxes.

Of course, whose to say that corporations with fewer taxes would pay employees more instead of just offering massive bonues to executives?

Re:Activision

[JarinArenos]

300% of China?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_exports

People's Republic of China $1,194,000,000,000 Germany $1,187,000,000,000

Source: World Bank, World Development Indicators

Population of Germany: 82,140,043
Population of China: 1,325,639,982

Germany, export per capita: $14450.93
China, export per capita: $900.70

So, not 300% either way (almost even, compared straight, and 1600% in Germany's favor per capita). Still very revealing.

Re:Activision

[Wyatt Earp]

I've worked Union and non-Union heck I'm working Union now.

I'll keep throwing FUD around.

I don't like labor unions.

Re:Activision

[thickdiick]

Notice that this has not "destroyed" the movie industry or even hurt profits one little bit.

I guess that's why movie tickets cost at least $9.50 in a medium-sized city in the USA. There's nothing like outsourcing the pain to the populace.

Re:Activision

[Anonymous Coward]

But thats also the upside of the gaming industry -- The barrier to entry is so small. These two guys could form their own company, license IDTech5 or UT or whatever, and make a new game and sell it with their reputation.

An independent developer is just as good as a studio in the PC world. Admittedly the barrier to entry is higher on consoles, but even that isnt that high.

Re:Activision

[The End Of Days]

Sorry, society really does work on the basis that you're only as good as your last envelope, and the envelopes from the unions have been light for 40 years now.

Re:Activision

[The End Of Days]

If they win their lawsuit they have all the money they need anyway. It's as solid a business plan as I can imagine.

Re:Activision

[The End Of Days]

A few hundred years of raping the world for resources through colonization and subjugation might have helped there, as well.

Re:Activision

[The End Of Days]

You have obviously never worked for them, or if you do, you have a position that is very disconnected from the day-to-day operations.

Re:Activision

[The End Of Days]

Socialism obviously isn't the pure evil that the populist right party tries to paint it as, just as corporations are not the pure evil that the populist left party tries to paint them as. This is just the result of playing the false dichotomy version of politics, where every problem must be boiled down to two raging sides.

Re:Activision

[metaforest]

Lol!
No sane business person builds a business plan that incorporates

"Win lawsuit"

As a lead in the funding column.

Re:Activision

[Jedi Alec]

3) Many don't have jobs and/or are living with their parents and don't think about the fact that a large percentage of their paycheck is going to the government

Well, as it happens I do have a job and I am perfectly aware of the percentage of my income going towards the state. And no, it's nowhere near 60%, nor is it going towards "comfort". It's used to ensure everyone has access to healthcare and education, so that even if my neighbour is a fucked-up deadbeat drunk, his kids have every opportunity to succeed in life and thus won't have to rob my kids for a living.

And yes, the talking heads on US television that abuse the words socialism and terruhrists for all sorts of situations where they are simply not relevant are indeed spreading FUD to those who are ignorant.

Re:Activision

[Jedi Alec]

Also, I can state from experience that there is a definite nanny-state feel to life in northern Europe.

Yes, definitely. I was saying the exact same thing only last night to a male prostitute who needed help with the taxes he pays for his legal profession while we were smoking some weed. I mean, the state even tells doctors how they're supposed to go about performing legal abortions or euthanasia. I'm sure in the US there's none of these nanny-state rules going on, ain't that right?

Oh well, I'm sure the right-wing nutjobs the people seem so eager to elect will change all that, starting with fucking headscarves of all things.

Re:Activision

[Anonymous Coward]

If Joss Whedon walks off the set you can't just grab some random schmuck off the street to replace him.

Exactly. A random schmuck off the street might actually make something with believable characters, non-hammy acting, and sane plot lines. Even a half-decent result would be easily identified as beyond Whedon's abilities.

Obviously...

[Anonymous Coward]

Someone set up them the bomb!

Re:Obviously...

[Opportunist]

If you have to use a game quote, I'd have said "Terrorists win".

Re:Obviously...

[CorporateSuit]

Bobby Kotick, CEO of Activision, dies and goes to Hell. The devil greets him when he arrives and says "Bobby, out of all the people up there, you remind me most of myself, so I'm going to let you choose your punishment for your first thousand years."

The two start at a short hallway labelled "First Timers" and stop at the first door. Inside is an old man, screaming, having his skin peeled off in 1 inch strips. The devil explains "At the beginning of the day, his flesh is renewed. By nightfall, he is nothing but a pile of organs hanging onto a skeleton. This is the only punishment where you get a few hours rest every night." Bobby feels a bit nervous about the long future ahead of him.

They walk to the next door. Inside is an even older man, screaming louder than the first man, and he's slowly being lowered into a vat of acid. The devil explains "This punishment lasts all day. It starts at the toes and works its way up. When you are completely burned away, it starts over. Some say that after the first 800 years, though, it feels more like a massage than a punishment. I suppose it's not so bad if you really enjoyed hot tubs when you were alive." Bobby starts sweating at the thought of his eternal reward.

They come up to the third, and last door of the hallway. Inside is an EXTREMELY old man, screaming at the top of his lungs. A gorgeous young woman, chained to him by the ankle, is giving him a passionate blowjob. The devil grins "This punishment may look like fun, but after the first few hours, you get tired, but you may never rest; not for a thousand years. This punishment is one of endurance. Now that you've seen your choices, which one will it be?" Bobby Kotick doesn't take long to decide which of the punishments he'll undergo.
"I'll take the last one. The blowjob one."

The devil accepts Bobby's choice with a nodded bow, and opens the third door. He enters in, unlocks the chain on the woman's leg and whispers in her ear "Your replacement is here, you've been relieved."

Re:Obviously...

[Anonymous Coward]

Wait, he replaces the girl? I thought this was supposed to be Bobby's hell not his heaven...

Crypto-news-ology

[Quiet_Desperation]

I'll go way out on a limb and speculate that personality and egos are involved somewhere.

Re:Crypto-news-ology

[ravenshrike]

Personality? Ego? Bobby Kotick? NEVER.

Re:Crypto-news-ology

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll go way out on a limb and speculate that personality and egos are involved somewhere.

Nonsense, the Laws of the Free Market state that egos will always take a back seat to profit-driven self interest. /sarc

Re:Crypto-news-ology

[Quiet_Desperation]

I thought ego was the middle finger of the invisible hand.

Re:Crypto-news-ology

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll go way out on a limb and speculate that personality and egos are involved somewhere.

Speaking of personality and inflated egos, why is the man's employment status public knowledge? Real question. This story seems about as significant and meaningful as the TV shows that (for some reason) give a shit about celebrities' private lives. The only thing unusual is that such unwarranted and pointless attention is usually wasted on people who can sing or act, not on programmers. Really how did this become a news item? Does he call up the news networks every time he gets hired or fired? Can someone explain this to me?

Re:Crypto-news-ology

[Quiet_Desperation]

Can someone explain this to me?

You must be newly arrived on planet Earth. Welcome. :-)

When you leave, can you take me with you?

Re:Crypto-news-ology

[Anonymous Coward]

Can someone explain this to me?

You must be newly arrived on planet Earth. Welcome. :-)

When you leave, can you take me with you?

That it happens is not new. A single good explanation for why it happens would be new. Got one to share with us?

BOOM!

[hadhad69]

Double kill, nice

Tired of the BS I guess

[SuperKendall]

The head of Activision got tired of being P0wed by both Jason West and Vince Zampella using Danger Close with Scavenger and claymores.

Talk about "rage quitting"...

Re:Tired of the BS I guess

[Anonymous Coward]

The head of Activision got tired of being P0wed by both Jason West and Vince Zampella using Danger Close with Scavenger and claymores.

Talk about "rage quitting"...

One Man Army Pro + Danger Close + Whatever Perk 3 + Your Favorite Tube gun (ACR/FAMAS are a favorite)/Claymore

Unlimited Claymores and Tubes, reloading your ammo after a 3 second OMA switch.

Way more annoying, and how I've gotten every nuke so far.

Re:Tired of the BS I guess

[Anonymous Coward]

Sad I know that strategy does work :/

It seems as if...

[TakeoffZebra]

Connection to host was lost.

Re:It seems as if...

[Anonymous Coward]

YYYYYEEEEEEAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH

Re:It seems as if...

[The Moof]

I see you're familiar with IW's work...

One of them

[adml_shake07]

probably whispered "union" and he and all his close contacts were immediately fired.

Re:One of them

[cryfreedomlove]

probably whispered "union" and he and all his close contacts were immediately fired.

Are you advocating that software developers form a union?

Re:One of them

[adml_shake07]

nope nope, most certainly not! I would never say that my employer demands unfair hours for low pay, or that my co-workers and I feel abused! Rubbish.

Re:One of them

[Opportunist]

Considering the conditions in game programming, I'd probably say it would not surprise me.

Re:One of them

[CrimsonAvenger]

probably whispered "union" and he and all his close contacts were immediately fired.

If that were true, then both of them would have some pretty serious lawsuit material. It's against the law for firing someone for wanting to unionize. Yeah, you can cover up the firing by giving another reason, but there are plenty of lawyers who would take the case (and win) anyway, since the feds are inclined to look suspiciously at any firing in close proximity to a unionization attempt.

Re:One of them

[geekoid]

I do.

Re:One of them

[Anonymous Coward]

So you'd rather be required to pay a modest sum to an organization which eventually will exist only to further its own interests?

Re:One of them

[mordenkhai]

Taxes are modest now? Oh I misunderstood which organization we were talking about, my mistake.

Re:One of them

[cryfreedomlove]

Would participation in the union be compulsory for the programmers?

Re:One of them

[Anonymous Coward]

Citation? I don't believe there's much US federal law that protects unionization, and there are many states where the laws are extremely hostile to unions and workers.

Re:One of them

[Anonymous Coward]

it's funny how well people have been raised to work against their own interests just to combat the Evil Unions. In the mean time while you're avoiding paying a modest sum to an organization which eventually will exist only to further its own interests, you're getting shafted by an employer who exists only to further his own interests.

Re:One of them

[Anonymous Coward]

Why would participation in a union be compulsory?

Re:One of them

[PapagenoX]

It all depends on who's manning the NLRB and which Administration is in power in Washington, D.C., doesn't it? Under the "right" people (pun intended), the Feds pretty much look the other way in the face of all kinds of shenanigans.

Re:One of them

[Austerity Empowers]

Because two wrongs frequently make a right.

Re:One of them

[Austerity Empowers]

Frequently unions require a "closed shop" aka "union shop", and contractually obligate corporations into it. It's not legal in all states.

Re:One of them

[Anonymous Coward]

It's against the law to get caught for firing someone for wanting to unionize.

FTFY: In my experience (sadly, some of it on the management side), they get around the "close proximity to a unionization attempt" by firing people early and often when the U-word comes around. Clear them out before they get rolling, and there's less chance of getting burnt.

Good.

[Hatta]

These guys will have no problem getting another job, and they won't have to work under Activision anymore.

Re:Good.

[hadhad69]

There's probably a clause in their contracts that stops them touching a computer for 6 months after leaving.

Re:Good.

[zero0ne]

Yeah, except they were terminated... wouldn't that mean the contract is null and void?

Re:Good.

[Tairgire]

Infinity Ward is in California, where non-compete clauses are automatically void. I believe (though I'm not an expert by any means) that they can get back to work immediately should an offer present itself.

Re:Good.

[Type-R]

Good thing that contract expired the moment they were fired then! :)

Re:Good.

[jpedlow]

Who knows, we may even get dedicated server support ;)

Re:Good.

[Samrobb]

Unless their contracts are really odd, there will be some sort of compensation associated with the non-compete clasue... so, if they do have that kind of contract, they should end up getting paid for those six months of doing nothing.

Nothing, that is, except consider the next game they will start to build for somebody other than Activision, once those six months are up.

So, basically, Activision is kick starting their competition.

Re:Good.

[Anonymous Coward]

Unless their contracts are really odd, there will be some sort of compensation associated with the non-compete clasue...

Except for that tiny detail that non-competes are invalid in California. Application Group, Inc. v. Hunter Group, Inc. also added precedent that made out-of-state contracts that include non-compete clauses to be invalid.

Re:Good.

[Lumpy]

non compete clauses are not enforceable when the clause will cause you undue hardship.

I.E. you are a game programmer, and your clause says you cant program at a competitor. Well EVERYONE is their competitor, there fore the clause is 100% unenforceable.

Remember, just because it's in a contract or a lawyer says it does not make it real nor enforceable. I personally strike out any clause like that, initial next to my strike out and ten sign it. I have never signed a contract that I did not modify.

Re:Good.

[kimvette]

When you're fired, such agreements are usually considered null and void since the employees are acting in good faith but the employer is not.

Re:Good.

[Anonymous Coward]

non compete clauses are not enforceable when the clause will cause you undue hardship.

Non-compete clauses are not enforceable at all in California.

Re:Good.

[Kagato]

No, well written contracts typically are set up so that is one section is in default the other sections are still in force.

Re:Good.

[Anonymous Coward]

Non-competes often do not apply if you are fired. Typically they're designed to keep you from quitting the company and leaving with their information and clients in tow with your own plans to screw them over. If they fire you though, it's their own damn fault when you leave... you still need to make a living somehow.

Re:Good.

[jmauro]

Non-competes are only valid in California if the company which holds the non-compete pays competitive salary during the non-compete time (basicly pay them to not work). Since most companies don't do that, they just say you cannot work for the competitors because they say so, most will be thrown out when challenged in court.

Without knowing their contract\non-compete it would be difficult to say whether it's void or not.

Re:Good.

[Anonymous Coward]

Plus, of course, the non compete clause means the employer has to keep paying the employee the same wages during the time of the non compete. So even if they were out of a job, they wouldn't be out of money :).

Re:Good.

[Chees0rz]

No, well written contracts typically are set up so that is one section is in default the other sections are still in force.

try {
workAssOff() // blocking fxn
}catch( CareerException=> e ) {
print "oh shit something happened: " + e.Message
}finally{
dontTouchAComputerInMonths( 6 )
}

Re:Good.

[Anonymous Coward]

non compete clauses are not enforceable when the clause will cause you undue hardship.

AND you can convince a judge that it will cause you undue hardship, AND you can convince the judge that this is a good enough reason to void a contract. There are a lot of judges who place a very high bar on what may void a contract. It causes you hardship? Too bad, you agreed to it. You still want to work in the same industry? Why don't you pay back the company all the wages it paid you under the assumption that you would not work for a competitor.

Re:Good.

[Anonymous Coward]

California Business and Professions Code Section 16600.

Non-competes are totally unenforceable unless coupled with a sale of an interest in a company and its goodwill.

If the employees in question had been owners (or major shareholders, if it was a corporation) of Infinity Ward (I don't know their history, I'm not that up on the gaming industry) it is conceivable that they have enforceable non-compete clauses. However, typically, they can't extend more than 2 or 3 years from the sale in order to be enforceable. It usually can't ban them completely from operating as programmers, but probably could stop them from forming a new game company during its duration. It would extend from the sale of Infinity Ward to Activision, not their firing today however, so it may have already elapsed, even if there was one.

Not knowing all the facts, I can simply state that there is a certain set of circumstances under which they might have an enforceable non-compete, but it is unlikely.

Re:Good.

[edxwelch]

Why bother striking them out then if they're uninforcable? All you are doing is pissing off your potential employer.

Re:Good.

[KamuZ]

It is called "fear".

So does that mean...

[Opportunist]

...that I can buy the next MW again and we'll get servers again?

(yes, I'm selfish)

Re:So does that mean...

[sopssa]

I really doubt that was Infinity Ward's decision, but rather something coming from Activision. They're the bad guys here and it would fit them exactly.

Re:So does that mean...

[wjousts]

I'm betting not. Activision Blizzard no doubt still hold the rights.

Re:So does that mean...

[Opportunist]

Do you care whether the next MW is called MW? They can keep the IP, it's not like "multiplayer shooter in a modern war setting" is limited to a certain name.

Yes, it won't be called MW. So what? Viral marketing will get the word out that this is the next game from the people of IW, the makers of MW, and that they just can't call it MW but it's still the successor (which they will heavily deny for liability purposes).

Think gamers care too much what it will be called if it plays like MW and feels like MW and looks like MW?

Re:So does that mean...

[Opportunist]

That's basically what I meant. Yes, the IP of MW might be with Activision, but who cares about the IP? I care about the game, and the game was made by the people who were just kicked out the door.

IP has become something in games, but it's not be-all, end-all. If you take the IP and fire the people that made it to the valuable IP it is, you can squeeze out another crappy knockoff with some cheap hires, maybe even two if you don't blunder too badly, but then your IP is dead. Games are still made by people. Not by the name they're sold under.

Re:So does that mean...

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you know who the lead developer for Halo CE was? (Wikipedia doesn't.)

Do you know what the next game John Howard made was?

Do you know that despite being much-loved by hard-core players (who loved Halo CE as well) Shadowrun was a commercial flop, in no small part because of the publisher (Microsoft)?

These guys could well go on to make more great games (assuming you consider MW great), but it relies on more than just them.

Re:So does that mean...

[dave562]

I just started playing the MW series with MW2. What is the benefit of having servers? The match making component seems to work fine. If you want to play with friends you can all join the same party. If you want to host a private game, you can setup your own match and invite whoever you want. The only lag I've ever dealt with in the game was network lag and not hardware lag. It seems like their P2P model works pretty well. I live in southern California and often times end up playing with other people in my region. During peak hours, it's pretty much 100% people from my region in a server of 12 or 18 people.

Re:So does that mean...

[PPalmgren]

Read soppsa's post, they didn't want to work on MW anymore. Isn't MW2 essentially CoD 5? The series is tired, let it die.

Hopefully they'll make something fresh, not a "not MW, but like MW." Its hard to use the word fresh and new FPS in the same sentence but you get my drift.

Re:So does that mean...

[Opportunist]

It's hard to use fresh and new with pretty much anything A-Title in games these days. Simple logic will tell you why.

A-Titles cost a metric ton of greens. The very last thing you want after spending 7-8 digits in front of a fat "USD" is to find out that your idea is basically something that looks great on paper but fails completely as a game (unless you put enough PR behind it, for reference, see Spore).

So what do A-Studios do? Rehash a formula that works. Simple as that. The next FPS, the next RTS, the next Beat'em up, the next $sport game, the next race sim. These formulas work and since you can appearantly claim a different angle or some odd special attack/style/whatevergajinga as a "fresh new invention", that's what gets produced.

If you want something radically new, don't look at A-Titles. Too much money at stake to risk something really, genuinely new.

Re:So does that mean...

[Omestes]

Though name recognition worked for Obsidian and Gas Powered games. I never would have bought a game from either of them if it wasn't for name recognition, or recognition of where the devs came from. It helped that they made decent products, too, but part of what drove my purchases was WHO made the products as well, and the other projects they were involved in (Diablo and Total Annihilation, respectively).

Re:So does that mean...

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's hope so! Now these developers know what happens when they don't include dedicated server support on the PC version!!! ;)

Re:So does that mean...

[dkf]

If you want something radically new, don't look at A-Titles. Too much money at stake to risk something really, genuinely new.

Why look for radically new things? A lot of what most people want just isn't radically new, not in gaming, not in cinema, not in music, not in literature, not in any part of the whole scope of entertainment. Yes, there are radical artists out there trying to do new things, but most fail to make much impact with it. (Many of these failures then claim that they were never trying for success, but that's just hypocritical BS. Or total lack of vision.) Eventually, one of those artists will stumble across a new basic type of some class of art (e.g., new basic game type) but that's rare, and if you go looking for it as a consumer of art, then you're going to come across a lot of impenetrable rubbish.

OTOH, the dearth of the radically new does not mean that we should settle for the same-old crap all the time. There's a lot of good to be had with varying the details and producing new variations on existing basic themes. By analogy with cinema, there's not much basic novelty in an action film, but there's plenty of room for one that's done ably and which is entertaining.

Activision's SEC filing mentioned litigation

[alen]

i bet these guys didn't like the no personal server part and slipped some code in or left some code from earlier versions in there and leaked it to the internet.

Re:Activision's SEC filing mentioned litigation

[Anonymous Coward]

i bet these guys didn't like the no personal server part and slipped some code in or left some code from earlier versions in there and leaked it to the internet.

I wish.

It's far more likely this was just a cheap way of getting rid of them.

Re:Activision's SEC filing mentioned litigation

[Anonymous Coward]

You're an idiot. More likely they wanted to work on something new instead of making Call of Duty 10: Modern Warfare 6.

Surprised.

[neptunusmaris]

They didn't take a "Last Stand" after Kotick gave them both a sniper shot to the head? ...Really?

Re:Surprised.

[Anonymous Coward]

Final Stand would let them get back up again after a bleed-out.

wow, they even didn't try to hide main reason

[postmortem]

In a nutshell, developers had better vision for products and keeping niche on right track than management, so managmeent fired them.

They were fired because...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sure performance isn't the issue. If I had to take a guess I'd say that breaches of contract and insubordination were probably the reason.

Rumor has it

[Anonymous Coward]

There was a comment on the Kotaku article about the firings possibly being the result of a failure by IW to release DLC for Modern Warfare 2. Supposedly, Activision wanted a wave of DLC to come out on the same day as Battlefield Bad Company 2 (a self-proclaimed MW2-killer) and the IW devs said they couldn't deliver.

One word: MORALS clause

[Anonymous Coward]

Something about, well, I can't divulge.

I know, I know, killing and all that glorified is not exactly near the moral highground, but that's not real life (to most of us).

Justified. . .

[jlb0057]

if either of these guys had anything to do with creating the Heartbeat Sensor. And Mr. Kotick, could you please come off the "thrift" long enough to fund an MW2 stats site similar to bungie.net?

Re:Justified. . .

[tincho_uy]

I doubt that, since the Heartbeat Sensor idea was ripped off from the original Rainbow Six.

Awesome!

[Kingrames]

Jason, Vince, if you can read this, form your own company and hire me - please!

Wanted for Questioning

[Anonymous Coward]

http://images.allmoviephoto.com/2006_Grandma%27s_Boy/2006_grandma_boy_wallpaper_001.jpg

Sounds Familiar

[Lord_Jeremy]

This sort of reminds me of what went on with Microsoft and Bungie. Bungie made a great game (Halo, though that's not to say their others weren't also great) and Microsoft wanted to milk that into oblivion. Fortunately, now Bungie has split and they seem to be back on track to their original designs. (I was a big fan of Marathon)

Unexpectedly?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Unexpectedly"? How on earth was their firing "unexpected" at all? They're good developers, they have good idea, and they were working for a company in the ownership umbrella of Activision. That should've tipped them off right there...

Re:WTF?

[nschubach]

http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=10/03/01/0536236 Enjoy... and learn to search next time.

Has anybody else around here lost their job?

[ClosedSource]

I'm actually more interested in the fate of folks around here than these obscure guys.

Re: Not everyone who works on movies is unionized

[shidarin'ou]

Visual Effects Artists, arguably the workers directly responsible for the highest grossing films of all time, are not organized.

They're in a very similar position to game developers- short term projects followed by firings, no health care, OT scheduling shenanigans, etc etc.

But all that looks like it might change soon- recent abuses and popularity of VFX movies is making more artists aware that they're getting the raw deal in the movie industry.

http://www.fxguide.com/qt/2187/open-letter-and-animation-guild-updates

Why is this news?

[pvera]

Are these the only two programmers in this field that lost their jobs today? Not really.

Are these two responsible for writing all the code in the game? Not really, it takes hundreds of people to put out even a mediocre game. There are more QA people in just one game than the total number of programmers I have worked with for the past 10 years.

Plus lets be realistic here, they are lead developers, which means they probably spent most of their days riding the damn phones. I am a lead programmer and there are days that pass without me being able to write one damn line of code, and my projects are tiny in comparison to a retail video game.

By all of the noise published so far about this, one would believe that these two are being canned due to nefarious purposes. Maybe they kept forgetting to use the new TPS cover sheets. Or they said the wrong thing to the wrong exec. If you think that you are "essential" to the company, figure out if the company has key man insurance on you. If they don't, then you probably aren't.

Re:Why is this news?

[Anonymous Coward]

They are not programmers or lead developers.
They were co-founders and Chief Technology Officer/President and the Studio Head/Chief Creative Officer of the company.
Which I guess means they were in charge of everyone at Infinity Ward, or pretty high up anyway.
Before they were acquired, that would make them senior management. Afterwards, middle management.
Since their titles included "game director" I guess that means they also liked to dabble with the design when time permitted.

Anyway, the fight is less likely about TPS cover sheets and more likely about the allegation that Activision has made $1 billion in revenues from the studios game and not paid a penny in royalties.
And of course the original Activision (before Kotick bought the brand name and got rid of the company) was founded because Atari didn't give their people no respect...

Whoa

[Anonymous Coward]

Time to dump Activision stock.

You can go from fry cook to executive management

[sideshow]

In fact, the money they make isn't bad considering what their job involves

Plus, McDonalds is one of the few places you can start out at the bottom and work your way practically to the top.

My brother-in-law started out as a fry cook as recent immigrant with practically no English skills. 20 years or so later, he's a director responsible for 500+ stores.

On a per capita basis....

[Dr_Barnowl]

Population of China : 1.3B

Population of Germany 82M

So Germany has exports of $14,745 per head, whereas China exports about one tenth of one cent per person.

So more like 134,000%

Re:On a per capita basis....

[Wyatt Earp]

Poster said Germany exports 300% of what China does. Not that German workers produce 300%.

As far as per capita GDP goes, the US still leads Germany.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

ActiLackofVision

[PPNSteve]

This was not wholly unexpected.. I did think it would take longer then it did however. At least until MW2 sales dropped off. (which they should be doing about now.)

Re:You can go from fry cook to executive managemen

[Pojut]

Plus, McDonalds is one of the few places you can start out at the bottom and work your way practically to the top.

It's funny you mention this, because it was actually the reason why I stopped working there. After a year or so, they wanted to put me through management training. The money would have been awesome, and I easily could have made a career out of it...but I didn't really want to stay with McDonalds for the rest of my professional life.

You are absolutely right though, they hardly ever look to external hiring for the big positions...they try to promote internal people as much as they can.

MW2 Sucked.

[dadelbunts]

Was just a bunch of unbalanced weapons and perks that made absolutely no sense at all. Maybe these guys can go and make a good proper game like MW1.

OK

[koan]

Here's hoping the pair were trying add a dedicated server mode in addition to IWNET, or that Activision is going to implement dedicated servers, or that someone at that company actually cares about the end user.
Otherwise, one of the best games I've played in terms of playability, weapons load out, and graphics is hobbled by IWNET, "migrating Host", no admin, no kicks, to many hacks (PC side) no end user mods, the list goes on.

Re:OK

[Lehk228]

from what i hear, bad as the hacking is on the PC side, it's worse on console.

Re:OK

[koan]

I don't use consoles so not up on that, I have heard rumors of hacking occurring using the IWNET style connection.
The constant interruption in game play is what I can't tolerate, choppiness, never play with the same group of guys, lousy VOIP set up (see Quakewars for a good VOIP setup). to make it short FRUSTRATED.

Re:OK

[Anonymous Coward]

I actually made the transition from PC gaming to console gaming semi-recently specifically because of the hacking in Modern Warfare 2 for the PC. Truth be told I've gone from seeing an average of two hackers per game on the PC side, to two* hackers total over the course of three months.

*This is not counting people taking advantage of in game glitches. This has dropped significantly since the last patch as well.

Re:OK

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the migrating host feature is fantastic. I mean, I believe your gripe is over the fact that, the servers are so bad, that host migration has to occur at all; but to be able to migrate a session over mid-game to another server; when I first saw that, a huge smile came over my face. The last time I saw something like that was in C&C Red Alert where you could save multiplayer games, but any number of factors could spoil the save and it wouldn't load properly. We need more widespread deployment of host migration technology.

Maybe they did something wrong?

[DaveGod]

Strange everyone immediately is so confident Kotick is in the wrong here. TFA has them being rolled out the door by security and there's a SEC filing for litigation (admittedly, it doesn't say who will be the pursuer). Maybe Kotick is an asshole (never met him myself) but there's a lot of possibilities here. I understand the US favours employees less than it does in the UK, but over here being thrown out the door either means the company is about to get shafted by an employment tribunal or those guys did something really, really bad.

P.S. I am a "bean counter" (accountant & auditor) and those kind of comments from a CEO are like sirens in our ears. The attitude goes contrary to modern business thinking and introduces significant risks. Secondly, saying it publicly is really, really stupid.

Re:Maybe they did something wrong?

[random coward]

Being escorted out by security generally speaks more about the employer than the employee in the US. Generally professional positions in the US are "Right To Work". This means that either side(employee or employer) can end the work relationship as a matter of rights at any time. California is pretty good about technical workers right to earn a living. Any non-compete is unenforceable if they are let go. More than likely they gave Kotick an ultimatum about what work they wanted/were willing to do and he called their bluff. Likely outcome is that some lawyers will be able to afford the new Audi's they're lusting after; Kotick gets nothing but satisfaction of causing them a headache in court, and they go on and make another fortune.

Re: Not everyone who works on movies is unionized

[PopeRatzo]

arguably the workers directly responsible for the highest grossing films of all time,

Argued by whom?

Visual Effects Artists, if you measure by the number of man-hours worked, are a relatively small portion of the labor that goes into a movie, even one like Avatar or Titanic.

Even with all the SFX on-screen, most of the work is still done with cameras, lights, etc.

Is there anyone here who would be against visual effects artists forming a guild? If so, why?

Re: Not everyone who works on movies is unionized

[shidarin'ou]

"Visual Effects Artists, if you measure by the number of man-hours worked, are a relatively small portion of the labor that goes into a movie, even one like Avatar or Titanic."

A movie like Transformers or Avatar can have hundreds to just under a thousand people working on the VFX for anywhere from 6 months to year (for the main portion- R&D will occur during and before principle photography).

More people will work on the VFX side will appear onscreen, or during principle photography.

Don't believe me? It's the best example (and one you cited) but take a look at the Avatar imdb page:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0499549/fullcredits#cast

Probably over a thousand people on that full cast and crew list, and the VFX division starts at 20-25% down and continues until you're 85% down the page- and that's not taking into account that the post production processes (especially on a movie like Avatar) go on for much longer than principle photography.

So, more people for more time equals more man hours- thats the mathematical point of the argument, but it wasn't the point I was trying to make.

The point I was trying to make is that no one went to see Shia Lebouf in Transformers or Zoe Saldana in Avatar- they went to see the Visual Effects- and in this day and age that's becoming pretty common.

I am not trying to argue that VFX workers are more important than grips, teamsters, actors, DPs or Directors; all I'm trying to say is that when Hollywood begins to rely on VFX for it's blockbusters, VFX workers deserve the same deal everyone else in the business is getting- wage guarantees, contract abuse protection, healthcare, residuals that pay into benefits, etc.

Take a look at the worldwide box office list,
http://boxofficemojo.com/alltime/world/
and ask yourself how many of those movies relied heavily on VFX. As far as I can see, in the top 10 only 2, Titanic and Dark Knight, aren't "VFX Movies" but they still had incredibly amounts of VFX work in them- every movie made today (even romantic comedies) will usually have hundreds of shots that go into VFX (if for nothing more than zit fixes).

I actually posted my comment because I agree with you about video game developers needing a union.

As for people being against it, there are plenty- movie producers will scream bloody murder when the movement gets stronger; other unions will be worried that their benefits will be eroded (a Visual Effects credit cannot currently come before a 1st Unit Director credit; which is usually in the credit roll- I think VFX supervisor deserves an intro credit right there along with Director of Photography), and some VFX workers themselves are strongly against it.

It's a long hard road, and because of pressure from China and ease of entry into the industry, it might not make it.

Not like warning signs weren't all over the place.

[Anti Cheat]

Even though I kept warning for months that Bob (call me Rob) Kotick is a menace. oh ya.. So I also thank the powers to be around here for modding my comments a big fat zero, unless I identify what I do that is. Then I score high.
I'm glad to see this happen. The more people that leave infinityward and the more Chaos that is generated there the better. It was the only real profitable division, so now lets see what happens next. I look forward to watching this story to its conclusion over the next many months. I hope Kotick crashes and burns in hell. Unfortunately he has his big fat contract where he wins even if he loses, so he could care less.

Fallout from MW2?

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe Activision sacked them for being so stubborn on the lack of dedicated servers for MW 2? Acti have always been pro PC and these two just ploughed ahead, deluded to think that MW2 - which is the best selling game of all time would be appreciated for this. I mean the amount of flak IW gets on their forums and other game sites for crippling the PC version, definitely is going to leave a stain on IW's reputation. "Great games, shit deployment"

Umm

[Anonymous Coward]

If you were insubordinate and had breached your contract, is it really unexpected to have been axed?

Re:You can go from fry cook to executive managemen

[Jeremi]

My brother-in-law started out as a fry cook as recent immigrant with practically no English skills. 20 years or so later, he's a director responsible for 500+ stores

Much like the NBA... anyone 'can' get to the top. Also like the NBA, most won't. There simply aren't enough positions at the top to allow more than a fraction of a percent to get there, no matter how hard everyone tries.

OM

[Sardaukar0]

Jason and Vince are oscar mike, repeat, they are oscar mike.

Oscar mike oscar mike oscar mike oscar mike oscar mike.

Re:OM

[soupforare]

Stay frosty.

IW

[cheatch]

After how IW completely ignored the demand for dedicated servers on COD6, I could care less if that whole company got the ax.

Interesting

[BillX]

Insubordination (n): That thing an authority figure busts you for when they have nothing to bust you for. (See also: Disturbing The Peace, Resisting Arrest, Insulting An Officer)

Although, from the 2nd Kotaku article...

"The Company is concluding an internal human resources inquiry into breaches of contract and insubordination by two senior employees at Infinity Ward," Acitivsion states in a filing with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission. "This matter is expected to involve the departure of key personnel and litigation. At present, the Company does not expect this matter to have a material impact on the Company."

Raises the possibility that there is more afoot than a simple pissing contest between egomaniacs. Although the SEC filing blurb does not elaborate on who they expect to sue whom.

Re:Interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

Raises the possibility that there is more afoot than a simple pissing contest between egomaniacs.

Are you referring to a contest of drinking, of urinating, or both?

Re:You can go from fry cook to executive managemen

[Lunzo]

You should have done the McDonalds manager training, even if you wanted to make a career doing something else. I've heard plenty of people say that it looks good on a CV. It shows that you've got commitment and perseverance.

Shadenfreude

[WoollyMittens]

It's nice to see Activision committing suicide like this.

insubordination lol ...

[shnull]

will Armyvision/blizzard execute them at high noon as well ?

Re:You can go from fry cook to executive managemen

[metaforest]

sure.... they want people in management who drank the kool-ade before they knew what they were drinking.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:You can go from fry cook to executive managemen

[enderjsv]

You're right that being a worker in McDonald's doesn't guarantee you'll move up, but if McDonald's hires from within the majority of the time, your chances are better than working at a company that almost always hires from without. Trust me, I've worked in an atmosphere like that.

Eat this Activision

[apn_k]

Jason West and Vince Zampella file lawsuit against Activision: http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/jason-west-and-vince-zampella-file-lawsuit-against-activision-86295312.html

Re:You can go from fry cook to executive managemen

[The End Of Days]

That's true of the world in general, but here's the trick people seem to forget, or perhaps never learn: the very nature of people trying expands the top to fit more.

Sure, you might not make it. There is no guarantee you're good enough. But the one guarantee I can make to you is if you never try, you'll never get there.