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Users Rejecting Security Advice Considered Rational

WeeBit writes "Researchers have different ideas as to why people fail to use security measures. Some feel that regardless of what happens, users will only do the minimum required. Others believe security tasks are rejected because users consider them to be a pain. A third group maintains user education is not working. [Microsoft Research's Cormac] Herley offers a different viewpoint. He contends that user rejection of security advice is based entirely on the economics of the process." Here is Dr. Herley's paper, So Long, And No Thanks for the Externalities: The Rational Rejection of Security Advice by Users (PDF).

389 comments

  1. Wasted time by Ethanol-fueled · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Average Joe User is cheap and lazy, that's a given. TFA:

    Users understand, there is no assurance that heeding advice will protect them from attacks.

    What dosen't make sense are the people who bitch and moan about what a hassle Linux is to set up and get figured out, while they waste hours and hours of their time and money cleaning out their Windows installs, setting up anti-malware programs that waste even more time in the form of annoying pop-up reminders and eaten CPU cycles, and even reinstalling their O.S.; if not bothering or paying somebody else to do it. I'd been toying aroung with Linux and Unix for years for business and personal use, but I finally switched for good when I realized that I was wasting more time with Windows than I would with a *NIX O.S.

    Windows can be used safely and quickly without protection, but only by savvy users who don't do any "real-world" stuff like torrent or allow the occasional ingorant user to use their computer.

    Would Linux be more safe if it had greater than or equal to the market share of Windows? Is any home O.S. really safe as long as the user keeps clicking "yes" or "ok"? That's a whole other debate. The fact is that Linux, now, is much less of a hassle than Windows.

    1. Re:Wasted time by PakProtector · · Score: 2, Funny

      eaten CPU cycles,

      Sorry, what's that? Can you speak a little louder? I can't hear you over the sound of all the wasted cycles my Phenom II X4 965 Black Edition is generating. It's a lot.

      --

      Edward@Tomato - /home/Edward/ man woman
      man: no entry for woman in the manual.
      "Qua!?"

    2. Re:Wasted time by Ethanol-fueled · · Score: 2, Funny

      Yeah, but...can it run Norton 360 4.0 without dropping any frames?

    3. Re:Wasted time by Goldberg's+Pants · · Score: 1

      Torrenting has nothing to do with it that's for damn sure unless you start downloading random EXE files and running them, and not doing that is just common sense. I think you need to draw a distinction between intelligent torrent users and fuckwits.

      It's about intelligence. I don't run any anti-malware software beyond a small program that tells me when something is added to startup, services etc... (Even the hidden stuff we're not supposed to know about.) And that's it. In the last seven years I've had one incidence of something getting through and it was relatively painless to fix.

      I used Linux for years and would routinely have to fight with the graphics driver, stuff would randomly stop working... Also I'm a gamer, WINE just doesn't cut it, and the fact is Linux just doesn't do what I need a lot of the time so I stopped using it.

    4. Re:Wasted time by rennerik · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but...can it run Norton 360 4.0 without dropping any frames?

      No

    5. Re:Wasted time by IamTheRealMike · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If you're torrenting pirated apps isn't that exactly "downloading random EXE files and running them"? It's not like the people producing the cracked versions are liable if there are problems. You don't even know who they are. And with an 80% miss rate on commercial AV products, there's really no guarantee that these things are clean. BTW your Windows anti-malware solutions sucks, a lot of bots/droppers these days are protected with something like hacker defender which isn't going to trigger any startup monitoring tool.

    6. Re:Wasted time by twidarkling · · Score: 0

      What dosen't make sense are the people who bitch and moan about what a hassle Linux is to set up and get figured out, while they waste hours and hours of their time and money cleaning out their Windows installs, setting up anti-malware programs that waste even more time in the form of annoying pop-up reminders and eaten CPU cycles, and even reinstalling their O.S.;

      I'd make a smarmy "Can you speak louder joke" like Pak there, but all I've got is deafening silence. Ya see, there's no way to make my soundcard work in *nix, from what I, and my friend who damn well *lives* in *nix can find. And we spent hours. I eventually had to use the shitty on-board sound.

      As for wasting hours and hours, and money, I use MSE, took about 5 minutes to download and install, and Spy-bot, which also took about 5 minutes to download and install. MSE updates itself, and Spy-bot probably could, though I'm comfortable with just manually downloading the updates, which takes about 35 seconds. Scans run overnight.

      So, I suppose, over my entire life, it might qualify as hours, plural. In fact, I wasted MORE time trying to get my sound card to work than I have with anti-virus/mal-ware programs.

      Oh, and I ran without *any* protection for over a year, including doing torrents, and a monthly scan didn't pick up *anything.* Ever. So there's that for your "Windows can be used safely and quickly without protection, but only by savvy users who don't do any "real-world" stuff like torrent or allow the occasional ingorant user to use their computer."

      --
      Canada: The US's more awesome sibling.
    7. Re:Wasted time by Yvan256 · · Score: 1

      You're assuming that torrents equals software. There's a lot of media available via torrents, such as Relics of the Chozo.

    8. Re:Wasted time by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      If you are the first person-- sure.

      But after 15 or 20 people post "it's clean as far as I can tell" then no.

      Likewise, if the first person posts "this ate my machine" or "my virus scanner detects "BLAH" in this" then it's not safe.

      I've only used RAR type programs personally. Everything else I use is free (as in beer) except Dragon Dictate which is reasonably priced for what it does so I buy it periodically. Someday there will be a free text recognition program (that WORKS at least as well with Openoffice) and I'll be done with DD.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    9. Re:Wasted time by Ethanol-fueled · · Score: 1

      But after 15 or 20 people post "it's clean as far as I can tell" then no. Likewise, if the first person posts "this ate my machine" or "my virus scanner detects "BLAH" in this" then it's not safe.

      What if the posters are just shills who want people to download their malware? What if the alarmists are RIAA shills who want to discourage people from downloading? What if the alarmists are naive or if their software throws false positives? I frequently see a lot of back-and-forth arguments in the comments sections of TPB torrents. The fact is that you have only your gut to trust, as even your malware scanner may miss it.

    10. Re:Wasted time by Gordonjcp · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Ya see, there's no way to make my soundcard work in *nix, from what I, and my friend who damn well *lives* in *nix can find.

      You don't say what kind of card it is, I notice...

      There's no way to make my sound card work in Windows. Well, I could download a couple of gigabytes of Windows updates and a driver, and then download a couple of gigabytes of software updates, and eventually I'd have two of the ten channels working. Or, I could just use Linux, where my Delta 1010LT is supported perfectly.

    11. Re:Wasted time by Shadow+of+Eternity · · Score: 2, Funny

      Find a torrent that DOESNT have about a 50/50 to 60/40 split of "VIRUS!!111" and "AWESOME!!11" posts.

      --
      A bullet may have your name on it but splash damage is addressed "To whom it may concern."
    12. Re:Wasted time by IamTheRealMike · · Score: 4, Insightful

      OK so this is how it works. There are websites out there like these which allow you to quickly check your newly infected EXE against all the main AV products out there. Signature based AV is basically obsolete because there are lots of programs out there that will happily scramble your EXE for you, in the scene these are known simply as "crypters" and you will find many people in the PPI world advertising their crypter as being FUD (fully undetectable). Good article on this here. Of course with enough downloads eventually somebody savvy will catch on, unless your work is really good, and then your binary and uploading IP address are usually banned. At which point they do exactly what you'd expect - spin a new binary, get a new IP address and do it all over again.

      If you're relying on only 15-20 other downloaders to certify something as "clean" and you regularly download warez you probably already have a rootkit on your system and have no idea it's even there.

    13. Re:Wasted time by maxume · · Score: 1

      Do you mean WinRar? 7-Zip pretty much matches it for features.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    14. Re:Wasted time by Sancho · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Personally, I buy things with the intent of running Linux on them. That means I have to take more care in researching before purchase, but in the end, it makes so many things so much easier.

      I never have to hunt down drivers. 99% of my software comes from one place, and the updates are handled automatically. Frankly, when you buy the right hardware, everything just works far better than Windows.

    15. Re:Wasted time by ls671 · · Score: 1

      Some media file can pop up a browser window to an infected site that will install malware on your computer especially if you use older software versions.

      There was even gif and jpeg exploits made public in the past, it probably occurred with other media files as well...

      http://isc.sans.org/diary.html?storyid=2997

      http://news.netcraft.com/archives/2004/09/17/exploit_for_microsoft_jpeg_flaw_is_published.html

      --
      Everything I write is lies, read between the lines.
    16. Re:Wasted time by The+MAZZTer · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Except that when a torrent is bad usually a person will not reseed it. Though it is possible to "fake" seeds generally I've found a high number of seeds from a tracker you trust is a good sign.

      Uhhhh what do I torrent? Linux DVD ISOs, duh!

    17. Re:Wasted time by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      I see your point on a public site.

      It doesn't apply on a closed community invitation only site.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    18. Re:Wasted time by twidarkling · · Score: 1

      Soundblaster. It's not like it's some obscure no-name brand. The thing's plug-and-play in Windows. There was even an official driver package from Creative Labs. That didn't work. All the ASLA guides on the 'net couldn't make it work. We even tried the alternate open source driver package, and that worked even less.

      And exaggerating doesn't help your position. There aren't "gigabytes" of updates out for Windows 7. Maybe after SP1 hits, you might be right. And "gigabytes" of software updates? What the fuck? Again, bullshit. I can't believe someone modded you interesting when you're obviously full of shit. Troooooooooolllllllllll.

      --
      Canada: The US's more awesome sibling.
    19. Re:Wasted time by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      I recognize the risks you are talking about. You can never eliminate it (heck- even commercial software and hardware is caught installing virii). The same applies to open source, firefox plugins, etc.

      The only reliable risk mitigation is waiting a few months, then checking it again.

      I've had one virus ever. That was on my Amiga.

      "Something wonderful is happening"
      "Your Amiga has come alive!"

      Friends told me "bullshit", "no way" for at least a few weeks until someone else saw the screen and it became common knowledge it was out there.

      My main way of security outside of the cool down and rescan is the machine's fire wall and looking at the lights on the modems and router.

      I use Avast and AVG virus scanners.

      They've detected a grand total of 3 viruses in the last 5 years. I simply deleted the items.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    20. Re:Wasted time by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      Seems like 7 zip didn't support RAR decoding at the time.
      Does it do so natively now?

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    21. Re:Wasted time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Amen to this. The ease of using linux on good hardware is unbeatable.

      I'm a linux veteran with good kernel developer connections so I know I could probably get even crappy hardware to work eventually... I've just become lazy growing older (and don't want to reward HW manufacturers that do not support linux) so I just buy known good hardware.

    22. Re:Wasted time by istartedi · · Score: 1

      You almost certainly googled around for information on your sound card before purchasing it. That's the real solution, regardless of OS.

      --
      For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
    23. Re:Wasted time by phantomcircuit · · Score: 1

      Windows XP took up about 2 GB total install. Now after SP3 it's about 13GB. So roughly 11GB in updates total.

    24. Re:Wasted time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unless you use Debian and DebianLegal decides after a long debate thats its not DFSG and promptly removes the driver. :(

    25. Re:Wasted time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "There aren't "gigabytes" of updates out for Windows 7."

      He never said Windows 7.

    26. Re:Wasted time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All the ASLA guides on the 'net couldn't make it work.

      You see, the real problem is that you've been reading guides for the wrong sound architecture all this time...

    27. Re:Wasted time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is it really that difficult to get your sound card working in Windows? Gigabytes of updates? And what version of Windows are you actually trying this on? You don't say what version of Windows it is, I notice...

      If you are using a version of Windows that was actually released in the past 3-4 years, then only having 2 channels working is most likely the fault of your sound card manufacturer.

    28. Re:Wasted time by D+Ninja · · Score: 1

      The fact is that Linux, now, is much less of a hassle than Windows.

      I don't know when the last time you used a recent version of Windows, but this mantra is pretty old and worn out. (And, yes, I run Linux as well, which I do enjoy using.) Windows has been continually improving and is actually enjoyable to use (I particularly am a fan of Windows 7). Is it a problem when individuals click "Yes" to everything - absolutely! Is it a problem that IE is full of security holes - yes! But, with the right browser (AKA, not IE), half the issues are solved with Windows and it is very easy to setup and just use. Some distros of Linux are getting to or are at that point (Ubuntu does a great job) but Windows cannot be blown off as the "n00b OS."

      Additionally, as you pointed out in your own post, "Is any home OS really safe..." - the answer is obviously "No." The weakest link is the users. And, whether it is in Linux or Windows, users continue to be the weakest security link.

    29. Re:Wasted time by mhajicek · · Score: 1

      The evil you know...

    30. Re:Wasted time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      SoundBlaster is a name brand though; It isn't like he picked up some obscure variant of the Crystal Labs audio codec that does silly shit with the PCI bridge in order to do it's thing. (Believe it or not, there ARE AC'97 flavored PCI devices. Bizzare, stupid, and horrible-- but they do exist.)

      What the parent might consider doing is enabling the sblast driver. Most creative Labs cards offer legacy emulation, so at least he would get to hear SOMETHING, even if 99% of the other features of the audio card (multiple channels, special environmental mixing, etc..) would be unavailable.

      Some functionality is better than no functionality.

    31. Re:Wasted time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So I shouldn't download an entire OS via torrents?

      Guess I'll ditch Linux then.

    32. Re:Wasted time by musicalmicah · · Score: 1

      Or, I could just use Linux, where my Delta 1010LT is supported perfectly

      Hey! I have that card too! Can you do low-latency multi-track recording with it in Linux? If so, what software do you use? Audacity?

    33. Re:Wasted time by hrimhari · · Score: 1

      Interesting rethoric. I'm sure you're not implying that Linux support of commercial, current (new to 3 years old) hardware is better than Windows? As in:

      - It has the functionalities expected, or even
      - It is supported.

      Or if you are and you just need a hardware model to change your mind, here, take mine:

      HP pavillon tablet pc tx2505ca

      It's 2, maybe 3 years old. Here are some problems I still face today in my still very loved Linux box:

      - Input devices sometimes won't work after booting. Shutting down by holding the power button required.
      - Will not wake up after putting to sleep. Shutting down by holding the power button required.
      - Sound card may require a restart of ALSA to work after booting. I often call Skype Test Call before calling somebody else to detect this problem. /etc/init.d/alsasound restart required.
      - Internal webcam may require a restart of the ehci_hcd module to work after being used about 3 times (turned on then off).
      - GNOME will freeze if panels are vertically aligned.
      - Multi-card reader won't read xD cards.
      - APCI doesn't work (and I'm pretty sure the lack of support in this killed my battery).

      --
      http://dilbert.com/2010-12-13
    34. Re:Wasted time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow, this post is going to start a flame war!

      That being said, I take issue with your statement of "Windows can be used safely and quickly without protection". I highly disagree. Despite a locked-down Vista machine, and practicing safe computing practices while surfing, my father's computer was infected with some sort of malware. It was a total pain to get rid of, but that is not the point - it should not have happened in the first place.

      No comments about Mac or Linux, but I would like to add that I work in the security field, and run into issues like this more often than you can imagine. My last client, who I cannot name, had to shut down EVERY windows PC in their company (hundreds of PCs) due to a malware attack in a reasonably locked down environment.

      Regardless of operating system, this should not be possible. Yes, there are bugs, but some of the stuff is ridiculous to have to deal with.

    35. Re:Wasted time by Gordonjcp · · Score: 1

      You almost certainly googled around for information on your sound card before purchasing it.

      Exactly. That's why I bought an M-Audio Delta 1010LT, because it's specifically extremely well-supported in Linux. I couldn't care less whether or not it's supported in Windows, since the software I want it for isn't available in Windows.

    36. Re:Wasted time by maxume · · Score: 1

      Yeah (but decompression only).

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    37. Re:Wasted time by Gordonjcp · · Score: 1

      Can you do low-latency multi-track recording with it in Linux? If so, what software do you use?

      Yes. I use Ardour, running on Arch Linux with a more-or-less stock kernel (the only changes from stock are to enable the missing AX.25 drivers, but that's utterly unrelated to audio - the point is more that I don't bother with any specific low-latency patches).

      I can get a latency of about 4ms. If I wanted it any less, moving my head closer to the speakers would help more ;-)

    38. Re:Wasted time by spazdor · · Score: 1

      Yep. There's no reason to use that shareware nagscreeny garbage ever again.

      --
      DRM: Terminator crops for your mind!
    39. Re:Wasted time by spazdor · · Score: 1

      Is your sig designed specifically to troll grammar nazis?

      --
      DRM: Terminator crops for your mind!
    40. Re:Wasted time by dave562 · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Hassle comes down to perception. I torrent and my g/f and friends use my Windows 7 box and I don't have any problems with it. I setup Linux but it was too much of a headache. With Windows 7 and a standard user account, it's pretty hard for your average ignorant user to screw up the computer too badly. As soon as they try to do anything that involves installing software or changing system settings, they are prompted for credentials.

      If you're ranting about XP, keep on keeping on. It is a PITA. That meme still works. Hell, even Windows 7 is a hassle because once again Microsoft moved everything around.

    41. Re:Wasted time by tepples · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Personally, I buy things with the intent of running Linux on them.

      I wish I could, but Best Buy doesn't have enough hardware with a cartoon penguin on it. How do you expect the general public to do this sort of research?

    42. Re:Wasted time by pugugly · · Score: 1

      Point of order: 7-zip has decoded RAR for years. I have no recollection of it ever *not* supporting RAR, and that goes back to at least playing Morrowind and the Sims (Though I tends to buy later, goty editions of games.

      Actually, what the hell - looked it up
      2.10 2000-05-16

      - First level 7-Zip Plugin for FAR Manager.
      - GUI version with integration to Windows Shell.
      - Compression and decompressing GZip and TAR formats.
      - Decompression RAR.
      - Install & Uninstall support.
      - Some bugs were fixed.

      --
      An Invisible Entity of Vast Power whose existence must be taken on faith alone: Liberal Media
    43. Re:Wasted time by musicalmicah · · Score: 1

      Wow, that's awesome. I had no idea Ardour existed. Thank you.

    44. Re:Wasted time by Sensei+Eggwoah · · Score: 1

      Yes. Depending on what you are attempting to accomplish it may not be for you. I use an m-audio delta 44 and have been using it to make music for a couple years now. Have some links, if you are interested:

      Jack - Low latency audio server. Allows you to connect together sound applications. Arguably the coolest thing about audio in linux.

      Ardour - Multi-track sequencer

      Hydrogen - Drum machine

      Jamin - Mastering software

      LAPSDA - Plugin API

      DSSI-VST - Way to run windows compiled VSTs on linux (of course its not always going to work)

      Linux has plenty of other software out there. These are just some links to get you started.

      There are many reasons one might not want to choose linux for audio tasks. With a windows and mac setup you have many more choices in regards to soundcards, software, plugins, and virtual instruments. It also may take a little effort to setup properly. To get proper latency you may need to use a real-time kernel. You may need to spend a little time configuring jack to get the best results out of your card. A finely tuned linux system can be excellent for creating music. It may not be the best choice, but it works for me and I can avoid dual booting.

    45. Re:Wasted time by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      Uhhh...then how exactly am I using less than 7Gb on this fully updated XP Home, counting programs? If someone prefers one OS over the other that is fine, but FUD isn't required. Windows AV is free (Avast, AVG, my personal favorite Comodo, MSE, etc) and many of us prefer to simply be able to shop without spending hours doing research, spending many an hour in bash pounding CLI, or dealing with lack of support for the software/hardware. In short for us it "just works".

      But if you really want to see Windows botnets go way down? Have a fit at the OEMs for disabling automatic updates and setting up their PCs with no passwords and trivial to guess usernames. I have customers using computers I built back when Win2K was the business OS, and with an AV and autoupdates turned on? No viruses. I have others still using PCs I built for their households before even Sp2, and again with an AV and autoupdates? No viruses.

      The OEMs selling PCs with even the most basic security practices disabled? That is just pathetic. There is NO reason why they should disable even notifying the user that updates are ready! And while /. loves to have themselves a good Windows bashing, it doesn't change the fact that a good 90%+ of the PCs out there are running Windows, and many could be made much safer by just having basic best practices active.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    46. Re:Wasted time by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 1

      BTW your Windows anti-malware solutions sucks, a lot of bots/droppers these days are protected with something like hacker defender which isn't going to trigger any startup monitoring tool.

      Missing the point - if you don't install software that's infected, you won't get infected.

    47. Re:Wasted time by AmberBlackCat · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      You're only "Insightful" cause you're on Slashdot. In the real world, they'd point out all the stuff you can't do on Linux, like print a photo. And somebody like me would point out that I've never had to reinstall Windows on this computer and the only security measure I took was getting rid of Norton and installing a real antivirus. And that alone is going to get me modded away again. But you know I'm right.

    48. Re:Wasted time by Kitkoan · · Score: 1

      Would Linux be more safe if it had greater than or equal to the market share of Windows? Is any home O.S. really safe as long as the user keeps clicking "yes" or "ok"? That's a whole other debate. The fact is that Linux, now, is much less of a hassle than Windows.

      Seriously doubt it. Any and every OS can be hacked into, it just takes a true desire to. Most people when they want to crack an OS, they want the biggest bang for their effort. Think, the most hacked home PC is Windows, the most hacked web server is Linux, the most hacked smartphone is iPhone. What do all 3 of these have in common? They are all the leaders of their field. You'll hear the rare story of a smaller OS being hacked into, but it won't be published in most major story outlets because it doesn't interest most people. Like imagine the headline "OS xyz hacked with malicious virus that is sweeping the globe, effecting less then 1 in every 10 users.". That really doesn't grip, it sounds more dramatic by saying "OS zyx hacked with malicious virus that is sweeping the globe, effecting more then 9 in every 10 users." now your talking interesting news because it effects most people.

      --
      Attention... all grammer nazi"s! Is they're anything; wrong with: my post,
    49. Re:Wasted time by ajlisows · · Score: 2

      Oh yeah, MY SOUND CARD doesn't work on Windows or Linux. I downloaded a bunch of random crap off the internet for both of them but nothing seems to work. Therefore, both Windows and Linux must be complete pieces of shit for not supporting my sound card.

      It has nothing to do with the fact that I just cut a piece of circuit board out of a stereo and jammed it into the PCI slot. A REAL operating system would have detected it and FORCED it to play music.

      Seriously. The number of "My sound card works in Windows and it wouldn't work in Linux" posts I have read followed up by "Oh yeah? My sound card works in Linux but not in Windows" posts I have read during my Slashdot browsing is absolutely staggering. Hardware and Device drivers can be a pain in the ass. I get it already.

    50. Re:Wasted time by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Except that most people who will download a trojaned torrent won't even realize that it's "bad" in the first place.

    51. Re:Wasted time by HiThere · · Score: 1

      Why can't you print a photo from Linux? Don't you have a printer installed?

      That's a really peculiar assertion. I can't imagine anyone having trouble printing a photo, provided that they:
      a) had a file of the photo (tiff, jpeg, png, etc. no problem)
      b) had a printer.

      If they only had the photo, and not a file of it, they'd also need a scanner. Still no problem.

      Perhaps if all you have is a proprietary Photoshop file you'd have problems. I've never tried that. (I don't have Photoshop. I had a copy for the Mac about 7 years ago, and didn't like it at all. I much prefer either The Gimp or Inkscape, depending on which kind of work I'm doing.. Deneba Canvas was nice, but it's not enough to keep me on a proprietary platform.)

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    52. Re:Wasted time by Jurily · · Score: 1

      If you're relying on only 15-20 other downloaders to certify something as "clean" and you regularly download warez you probably already have a rootkit on your system and have no idea it's even there.

      Well, that's the fun part: most people don't care as long as it doesn't interfere with their life.

      Security is always a trade off. In this case, it's being able to do what I actually want to do (you don't want to go raiding with WoW on wine, trust me), as opposed to doing other stuff I could do on Linux but don't want to. When I want to do what Linux is good at, I dual boot or fire up a separate box.

    53. Re:Wasted time by sp0tter · · Score: 1

      I've had video drivers for windows that were nearly as large as my entire Ubuntu install media. (well almost) Sane driver support and out-of-the-box networking are the #1 & #2 reasons I enjoy linux installs and abhor windows installs. I dont even have to mention product keys

      --
      you don't eat crackers in the bed of your future--or else you'll get all scratchy
    54. Re:Wasted time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The sad part is how often they're both right. A lot of times a program is clean and the keygen--while it does indeed do what it says it does--will infect the PC.

      But hey, that's what a sandbox is for!

    55. Re:Wasted time by flappinbooger · · Score: 1

      I was using linux full time at work, but it started to get slightly messed up and was hurting productivity. I was too busy right then to take the time to fix it, which would have taken (me) a few hours. About that time win7 was JUST coming out so I put on a copy of win7 as I wanted to demo it. Took pretty much zero effort to put on, no drivers to find, no config. Works well. Low maintenance. Like it. Lots. I do miss linux and I will go back...

      Side note - I "inherited" an ancient optiplex dell P4 POS, maybe 1.6 GHZ. It actually CAME with XP, so it isn't THAT old. Anyway. I took out the 2x 128 meg sticks and put in 4x 256 meg sticks and then installed windows 7. It's actually pretty smooth. lol!

      --
      Flappinbooger isn't my real name
    56. Re:Wasted time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What weird problem is keeping you from being able to print a photo? I've never even tried to do that in Windows, and off the top of my head can think of 4 different ways to do it on my Kubuntu desktop.

    57. Re:Wasted time by compro01 · · Score: 1

      Peazip is another good one. One of it's neat features is it can use ZPAQ compression, which is handy when smallness is of great importance.

      --
      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
    58. Re:Wasted time by flimflammer · · Score: 1

      You're counting your Program Files path, aren't you? There is not 11 gigs of updates for Windows XP. I never reached that size when I used XP pro fully patched.

    59. Re:Wasted time by AmberBlackCat · · Score: 1

      Lack of driver support for a Canon inkjet.

    60. Re:Wasted time by AmberBlackCat · · Score: 1

      I do have a printer installed. A popular, common model. I do have the files. What I don't have is a working Linux driver. I realize this is probably more Canon's fault than any Linux developer's fault. But to say that normal people will have less of a headache with Linux than Windows is shortsighted. You'd have to be living in a Slashdot bubble where they just mod everybody down who disagrees so you think everybody feels the same as you.

    61. Re:Wasted time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The fact is that Linux, now, is much less of a hassle than Windows.

      And much more useless. Oh, games and video drivers. I would miss you so much.

    62. Re:Wasted time by pspahn · · Score: 1

      Virtualization much?

      --
      Someone flopped a steamer in the gene pool.
    63. Re:Wasted time by HybridJeff · · Score: 1

      Its not that hard. If you're using a public site like thepiratebay, just stick to torrents uploaded by people with the trusted rank.

    64. Re:Wasted time by arose · · Score: 1

      Soundblaster. It's not like it's some obscure no-name brand.

      Exactly, a simple search would have confirmed that they don't care.

      --
      Analogies don't equal equalities, they are merely somewhat analogous.
    65. Re:Wasted time by bemymonkey · · Score: 1

      Windows can be used safely and quickly without protection, but only by savvy users who don't do any "real-world" stuff like torrent or allow the occasional ingorant user to use their computer.

      Now where would you get that idea? I haven't ever run a background virus/malware scanner, and both my Win7 installs are going on... well, since release, and they still aren't infested by any crapware. Still snappy too (they need to be, since I'm running one of them on pretty dated hardware). Scan downloaded (especially torrented) files manually before opening them and you'll be fine... It's getting people to actually selectively scan the relevant files before opening them that's a pain, because most will either scan everything, even from trusted sources (so they might as well use a background scanner and save themselves the hassle, if not the time), or scan too little.

      There's nothing like UAC and a few active virus scanners in the background for people who seem to be incapable of discerning even the most obvious malicious files - like when you download a video and are confronted with an executable file instead of an actual video... hmmm... suspicious? No, it's probably just a self-extracting archive, which also explains why that 200 minute 1080p video is only 80MB. :D

      All I know is that my parents and my girlfriend are all getting Macbooks as soon as I can afford it...

    66. Re:Wasted time by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      Cool.
      Downloaded and installed.
      Nothing to unrar yet, I'll give it a test when something comes in.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    67. Re:Wasted time by Eivind · · Score: 1

      It's improving in some ways, true. Win7 is actually less of a pain in the behind than Vista, agreed.

      There's still a few major roadblocks though. For example the difficulty, not to say impossibility, of keeping updated a windows-computer with a few dozen programs on it, due to each program needing to be updated separately, and some programs having no mechanisms for that at all. (whereas other programs, like Acrobat, like to have their own little silly auto-updater run ALL the time, because there's an update to them every few months)

    68. Re:Wasted time by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      Personally, I buy things with the intent of running Linux on them. That means I have to take more care in researching before purchase, but in the end, it makes so many things so much easier.

      I never have to hunt down drivers. 99% of my software comes from one place, and the updates are handled automatically. Frankly, when you buy the right hardware, everything just works far better than Windows.

      So do I. Oddly enough, it seems that my sound card that worked fine a few years back no longer works correctly (It's an Audigy2). I can get sound out of it, but only in digital audio "mode". I don't know if it's the change to pulseaudio or what, but it prevents me from using the microphone port. Been fighting for it a few hours a week for the past few months, to no avail.

      It's... irritating.

    69. Re:Wasted time by rdnetto · · Score: 1

      I know you're modded Funny, but why has't anyone been working on this? Admittedly the market fragmentation with Linux can be problematic*, but just list the distros on the box - the purpose of the logo is to make it obvious at a glance.

      *not an issue if said drivers are open source

      --
      Most human behaviour can be explained in terms of identity.
    70. Re:Wasted time by Vectormatic · · Score: 1

      sound is horribly foobarred in ubuntu 9.10... i ended up fighting with my soundblaster live too

      I'm not quite sure what i ended up doing in the end, but i get stereo sound out, and it doesnt just die anymore on occasion, so now it is tollerable...

      --
      People, what a bunch of bastards
    71. Re:Wasted time by Jedi+Alec · · Score: 1

      I wish I could, but Best Buy doesn't have enough hardware with a cartoon penguin on it. How do you expect the general public to do this sort of research?

      Well, let's see, what kind of tools does the general public have at their disposal. Oh, wait, I know! How about *drumroll* Google?

      Unless googling "$hardware linux drivers" is considered rocket science these days, and folks that do think it is typically don't buy a separate soundcard to do their own upgrading.

      --

      People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
    72. Re:Wasted time by Jedi+Alec · · Score: 1

      And somebody like me would point out that I've never had to reinstall Windows on this computer and the only security measure I took was getting rid of Norton and installing a real antivirus.

      You're on slashdot. That pretty much means that besides ditching norton for a proper antivirus there's an extremely high probability that you're using a lot of security measures in your head as well. Applying best practices to computer use is a security measure in itself.

      --

      People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
    73. Re:Wasted time by SharpFang · · Score: 1

      Also, while most BitTorrent software is mostly secure, eMule was notorious for its own bugs and security holes - you didn't have to download anything dodgy, just announce your presence on the net letting the attacker to connect to your client, exploit a vulnerability in its ed2k protocol handling, and infect your computer with whatever they wanted using eMule as the backdoor.

      --
      45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
    74. Re:Wasted time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Stop smoking this shit, man. It's bad for you.

    75. Re:Wasted time by SharpFang · · Score: 2, Informative

      The problem is, a couple of years ago, RAR released a new version (which gave it a lead in the industry in compression ratio for a brief time), incompatible with the older versions (old decompressors couldn't decompress stuff compressed with the new RAR). It took all the others between a few months and a few years to include support for it. 7zip being notoriously behind. So while it nominally supported ".rar", it lacked support for the "new RAR" for a couple of years.

      --
      45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
    76. Re:Wasted time by SharpFang · · Score: 1

      ...except if you enter sites with drive-by exploits, get spam email with virus that requires you to hover your mouse over the message title in Outlook to install, or some protocol you weren't even aware your computer used has a security hole and an IP scanner finds that port open on your box...

      Sure most viruses use some blatant and crude social engineering to install, but there are these that don't even need user interaction to infect you.

      --
      45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
    77. Re:Wasted time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not like the people producing the cracked versions are liable if there are problems.

      Ubisoft doesn't offer you compensation if StarForce screws up your DVD drive, either.

    78. Re:Wasted time by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      It's been screwed to hell since 8.04 here.

    79. Re:Wasted time by epine · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Welcome to the school of tail wagging the dog. What would the ROI calculation have looked like *before* you acquired that sound card when you effectively married yourself to the Windows culture and all that comes with it? Five minutes well invested against the throes of consumption lust?

      For that matter, why bother learning about birth control until *after* you discover you're not shooting blanks?

      I was looking forward to reading this paper, because there are good arguments to be made about the externality burden. This paper is not that paper. Author seems to have a tin ear concerning second order effects. Maybe SSL certificates are rarely faked because the mechanism grants the adversary a dominating response. In game theory, one can't neglect the influence of moves never played. That tends to correlate with the move being super kick ass when confronting an opponent with rational self-preservation.

      I found the paper extremely self-serving to the Microsoft camp. From a larger perspective, we should have engineered these systems in such a way that it was never a rational proposition for the black hats to invest so much in gaining expertise over its manipulation. Not that this could have been forestalled indefinitely considering the value held within the network walls, but we certainly didn't have to make it so darn easy for the agents of darkness to self-finance their learning curve.

      Now that it's a done deal, Microsoft finds all kinds of time for shirt-rending accounts of the TCO of learned-helplessness.

      One more note. I have to slap my forehead over all the effort invested in training people to use strong passwords. Password strength needs to grow by about six bits per decade, just to track Moore's law while the number of passwords a typical person requires seems to double every decade or so.

      It's socially embarrassing to forget an important password because you were conscientious and didn't write it down.

      The human brain doesn't scale to the demands of this security practice, and this has been obvious for thirty years.

      The risk of key loggers forces one into making each password unique and significantly detracts from the notion of aggregating a huge basket of passwords onto OpenID.

      If every human had 2kB of glucose backed NVRAM with thirty years guaranteed retention, life would be different. We don't, and you can't educate this into existence.

    80. Re:Wasted time by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      This is marked Flamebait, but I'm running Karmic, and I'm trying to make a photocopy from my HP flatbed scanner (scan worked) and print it to my HP laser printer (which failed) and I'm using hpijs even, and a networked printer. Why is this hard? It worked under windows with the same hardware. I definitely did the Windows reinstallation shuffle on a regular basis, though. I'm glad to be "rid" of it (I have it in a VM for those times when it cannot be avoided.)

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    81. Re:Wasted time by plague3106 · · Score: 1

      I haven't seen media files able to do that since I switched to Vista, then 7. WinXP is about 10 years old at that point, and just needs to go away.

    82. Re:Wasted time by plague3106 · · Score: 1

      I wish someone could explain to me why anyone uses RAR to begin with?

    83. Re:Wasted time by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 1

      .except if you enter sites with drive-by exploits

      Firefox takes care of this mostly, and noscript in the last few months removes any remaining threat.

      get spam email with virus that requires you to hover your mouse over the message title in Outlook to install

      a) don't use outlook b) in ANY email client, disable HTML rendering and scripting.

      or some protocol you weren't even aware your computer used has a security hole and an IP scanner finds that port open on your box...

      run behind a dedicated hardware firewall w/ NAT. You should never have your computer directly on an public-facing Internet connection.

      I've managed to remain un-exploited for a couple of decades now with those basic procedures. I run clamav against my windows partition while booted into linux about once a month to verify. And I'll periodically monitor inbound/outbound traffic from firewall/router box (mostly as an extra precaution).

    84. Re:Wasted time by Sancho · · Score: 1

      I didn't think we were talking about the general public, but

      people who bitch and moan about what a hassle Linux is to set up and get figured out, while they waste hours and hours of their time and money cleaning out their Windows installs, setting up anti-malware programs that waste even more time in the form of annoying pop-up reminders and eaten CPU cycles, and even reinstalling their O.S.;

      In other words, skilled people who choose to spend their energy wrestling with Windows rather than learning something that will be simpler in the long run.

    85. Re:Wasted time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What are you talking about? A five second search on google pulls up windows drivers for your sound card at http://www.m-audio.fr/index.php?do=support.drivers&f=930. The second page on the search shows how to get the driver installed on Windows 7. There are a lot of legitimate complaints about Windows without you having to make stuff up.

    86. Re:Wasted time by SharpFang · · Score: 1

      -now- - power of habit.
      -then- - it was the best (shortly).
      -until recently- - it can find and restore archives embedded in an arbitrary binary stream. That was used frequently for sharing files over imageboards by appending RAR to the end of a JPEG image. That way the JPEG (with data considered junk) was posted to the board, and downloading it, changing extension to .rar and opening in winrar extracted its contents. Some quite popular sites used it on regular basis - Bookchan being one of them, thousands of ebooks shared that way.

      Currently 7zip can do it too with its native .7z, but I don't think it's more than half a year since it learned that trick.

      --
      45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
    87. Re:Wasted time by SharpFang · · Score: 1

      Oh, so:

      1. don't install software that's infected
      2. use secure browser
      3. use secure email client
      4. use dedicated hardware firewall... ...Next I could mention some 3 more vectors of attack (...pendrives? ...WiFi password? ...other vulnerable software?) and you could counter me with 3 other simple security countermeasures. Which would bring your list to 7 points.

      Which goes way beyond your original point of "if you don't install software that's infected, you won't get infected" and nears a point where a Joe Average loses track of these necessities, forgets or neglects one of the points - and gets infected.

      --
      45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
    88. Re:Wasted time by ls671 · · Score: 1

      > I haven't seen media files able to do that since I switched to
      > Vista, then 7. WinXP is about 10 years old at that point, and
      > just needs to go away.

      Hmm... newer is better so problem solved for ever if you use vista or 7 ?

      That is if you have never heard of "newly introduced bugs and security holes" and 0 day exploits that haven't been discovered yet.

      No piece of software is 100% secure, it doesn't matter how new it is. As a matter of fact, older software that hasn't been modified to provide more or newer functionality but only patched for security holes are often recognized safer than newer software. This is why some entities run older patched software instead of upgrading to the latest and greatest. Newer software usually contain more unknowns.

      --
      Everything I write is lies, read between the lines.
    89. Re:Wasted time by fbjon · · Score: 1

      Don't forget Renoise, a sequencer/tracker of considerable quality for Win/OSX/Linux. It's not open source, but you can get a demo that has no limitations other than rendering support.

      --
      True confidence comes not from realising you are as good as your peers, but that your peers are as bad as you are.
    90. Re:Wasted time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... and rather than spend all that time in my OS just to get it to kind-of-work, I use a Mac.

    91. Re:Wasted time by HiThere · · Score: 1

      OK. I've never tried Cannon, so perhaps you're right. But every printer I've ever tried has worked as well with Linux as with anything else...except that scanning has been a problem in the past, and is occasionally a problem when using the drivers from the "unstable" or "testing" trees.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    92. Re:Wasted time by pugugly · · Score: 1

      If you're getting that kind of latency between your ears and the speakers, you may want to fill the entire area with water or some other medium where the speed of sound is higher. Although actually you can get almost the same increase simply by pressurizing the entire room under several atmospheres and raising the temperature appropriately.

      Pug

      --
      An Invisible Entity of Vast Power whose existence must be taken on faith alone: Liberal Media
    93. Re:Wasted time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "How do you expect the general public to do this sort of research?"

      Google is always a good place to start.

    94. Re:Wasted time by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 1

      Ah, touche`... my "list" is actually about 10 points. Common sense to me, but you're right - it goes far beyond "don't download infected software". I do maintain that the underlying principle is the same: don't invite trouble into your computer, either actively or passively. ANd it doesn't take a complete lockdown to manage that sanely.

    95. Re:Wasted time by Gordonjcp · · Score: 1

      If you're getting that kind of latency between your ears and the speakers, you may want to fill the entire area with water or some other medium where the speed of sound is higher.

      Sound is slow. Really slow. Sound takes about three milliseconds to travel a metre.

    96. Re:Wasted time by Gordonjcp · · Score: 1

      Right, so I have to go off and find some drivers, and download them, and figure out how to install them? Why should I do that? In Linux it just works when I plug it in. Why can't Windows be that easy?

    97. Re:Wasted time by plague3106 · · Score: 1

      Nice try at a strawman then. My point is that a 10 year old OS at this point every knows almost all the holes, the newer OS closes many of those holes, and people haven't had as much time to find the newer exploits. Oh, and the security model did change (UAC, which helps quite a bit limiting the damage of exploits).

      But please, keep pretending that Linux has few exploits because its OS, instead of the reality, in that its not important enough to care about.

      Next time, don't put words in my mouth; I never said Vista or higher was 100% secure, or would be secure forever.

    98. Re:Wasted time by b4dc0d3r · · Score: 1

      Who would work on this? "Work on this" doesn't mean "create a linux logo like the made for windows one and get people to put it on their boxes." It's not that simple.

      The hardware companies would have to add the logo on the box - I don't think it would make sense for an Improv Everywhere type swarm to go placing stickers on boxes on retail shelves. So your question is why aren't hardware people putting "Works with Linux" stickers on their boxes? Pretend someone created one. Well then they would have to support Linux, get open source versions of all of the drivers and test them with the hardware, and probably host their own repository to allow for driver updates so users have the officially supported version(s).

      The last thing hardware people want is the phone call "I just bought this and thought I'd try Linux since I heard about it and it's on your box, now what?" In other words, hardware people only want knowledgeable users running Linux. If you know enough to research the hardware and figure out what works on Linux, you're smart enough to find the Linux support section of the hardware web site. If not, they don't want you to find it for the most part, if it even exists.

      This goes all the way back to "Don't use a WinModem." There was actually a term for a product which came with missing parts and expected the operating system to implement DSP in software so the modem had less hardware wand was cheaper. In theory, Windows would use the sound card DSP to make up for the modem not having it. A few marginal cards were more expensive, and to differentiate themselves they would often put "Works on operating systems that aren't windows" or even "Works on Linux". Then either linux supported winmodems, or people switched to DSL/cable, and nobody cared. But they were using a standard interface that didn't require special drivers. The type of hardware people care about will require special drivers.

    99. Re:Wasted time by marcosdumay · · Score: 1

      "Some media file can pop up a browser window to an infected site that will install malware on your computer"

      That will only happen in Windows. And some people still say the security differential is just market-share...

    100. Re:Wasted time by marcosdumay · · Score: 1

      "why has't anyone been working on this?"

      Because Microsoft would (and did) break the knees of anybody that tries something like that.

    101. Re:Wasted time by hkmwbz · · Score: 1

      What dosen't make sense are the people who bitch and moan about what a hassle Linux is to set up and get figured out, while they waste hours and hours of their time and money cleaning out their Windows installs, setting up anti-malware programs that waste even more time in the form of annoying pop-up reminders and eaten CPU cycles, and even reinstalling their O.S.

      Actually, most people don't bother. A friend of mine installed some spyware toolbar, and I told him it was spyware and he should remove it. He didn't care. He wanted some stuff it came bundled with, and he didn't mind if they could see his entire browsing history. He didn't care if it was in the way.

      --
      Clever signature text goes here.
    102. Re:Wasted time by ls671 · · Score: 1

      > Nice try at a strawman then. ...
      >
      > But please, keep pretending that Linux has few exploits because
      > its OS, instead of the reality, in that its not important enough to
      > care about.

      Nice try at a strawman, I never mentioned anything about "Linux". I only expressed generic IT principles. It sounded like you were saying "those problems are gone with Vista and 7". Sorry if that wasn't what you meant...

      Re-read your post and my original reply, I do not see anything wrong with my reply. I merely stated generic IT principles that you have to take into account when making your argument, it seemed relevant to me...

      Cheers,

      --
      Everything I write is lies, read between the lines.
    103. Re:Wasted time by plague3106 · · Score: 1

      Since you seem to think stawmen were ok, I didn't see why I shouldn't start down that road.

      I wasn't saying all security problems were gone; I said problems specific to XP were gone.

  2. Yeah by Capt.DrumkenBum · · Score: 1, Insightful

    I have a simpler conclusion... Most users are idiots!

    --
    If I were God, wouldn't I protect my churches from acts of me?
    1. Re:Yeah by MichaelSmith · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I have a simpler conclusion... Most users are idiots!

      Even simpler: most people are idiots.

    2. Re:Yeah by Monkeedude1212 · · Score: 1

      Let me get this straight, Its either

      A) users will only do the minimum required.
      B) users consider security measures to be a pain.
      C) user education is not working.
      or D)based entirely on the economics of the process

      And NONE of those overlap?

      I think this arguement is moot, everyone seems to be shouting the same thing.

    3. Re:Yeah by sakdoctor · · Score: 2, Funny

      I conclude that most idiots are people.

    4. Re:Yeah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Even simpler: most people are idiots.

      Yeah, that's a *simple* conclusion, that is.

      You know, every single person I have ever heard say "most people are idiots" has never been all that high a wattage bulb themselves. Maybe they were book smart in one or two areas, but get outside their intellectual comfort zone, and forget it. This seems especially true of computer geeks.

    5. Re:Yeah by gestalt_n_pepper · · Score: 1

      That's stretching it. Are senators "people?" What about representatives? Or Wall Street bankers? Or economists?

      --
      Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
    6. Re:Yeah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But you're one of the few exceptions. That "one in a million", right?

    7. Re:Yeah by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

      It's worse than that... half the people out there are of below average intelligence! (For the pedantic, yes, they are actually of below mean intelligence, but that doesn't have the same ring to it.)

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    8. Re:Yeah by dan828 · · Score: 1

      Senators people? Frankly, I don't think Nancy Pelosi is even from this galaxy.

    9. Re:Yeah by jellyfrog · · Score: 1

      Dear sir,

      Mean and average are actually the same thing. The word you are looking for is 'median'.

      Sincerely, A Pedant.

    10. Re:Yeah by spazdor · · Score: 1

      Actually, 'average' is an ambiguous term which, according to context, may refer to a mean, a median, or even a mode.

      --
      DRM: Terminator crops for your mind!
    11. Re:Yeah by Rhinobird · · Score: 1

      Also, she isn't even a Senator. She's a Representative.

      --
      If Mr. Edison had thought smarter he wouldn't sweat as much. --Nikola Tesla
    12. Re:Yeah by R3coiler · · Score: 1

      Nonsense! Half the population has at least an IQ of 100!

    13. Re:Yeah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even simpler: most people are idiots.

      Yeah, I know. I saw an amazing statistic once:

      Half of all people have below-average intelligence.

      Wow.

      Just... Wow.

    14. Re:Yeah by Spatial · · Score: 1

      You know, every single person I have ever heard say "most people are idiots" has never been all that high a wattage bulb themselves.

      Of course our wattage is low, we're CFLs.

      You must be an incandescent. My condolences, peasant.

    15. Re:Yeah by buchner.johannes · · Score: 1

      If the user is too ignorant to do a task, they probably don't want to do the task and don't care about it being done.

      The expectation that a system "just works" without involving the user in preventive measures (installing, configuring, updating PF and AV, updating the OS) is not idiocy.

      You can say ignoring password advice (using primitive passwords is idiotic). In some scenarios this is justified as a result of a compromise, e.g. I don't use a password on my laptop (boots into the desktop), because my security measure is to ensure that no one has physical access to it.

      --
      NB: The message above might reflect my opinion right now, but not necessarily tomorrow or next year.
    16. Re:Yeah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's what they always claimed in school, but I have never once in the real world seen "average" used to mean median or mode.

    17. Re:Yeah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even simpler: most people are idiots

      ... and they're all posting on this thread.

    18. Re:Yeah by sammyF70 · · Score: 1

      in short, people are a problem

      --
      "DRM is like the Ford Pinto: it's a smooth ride, right up the point at which it explodes and ruins your day."-C.Doctorow
    19. Re:Yeah by YttriumOxide · · Score: 1

      Actually, 'average' is an ambiguous term which, according to context, may refer to a mean, a median, or even a mode.

      That's what they always claimed in school, but I have never once in the real world seen "average" used to mean median or mode.

      I see mode get used a lot when it also happens to coincide with a rounded mean. Such as "the average number of PCs per person in my department at work is two" (at a guess, the mean is somewhere around 1.9, and the mode is definitely 2).

      But yeh, this kind of statement probably IS a rounded mean more than a mode in the speaker's head, so you're probably not wrong.

      What might be interesting to see is what people call the "average" in daily speech when there's one huge outlier. So, if I got 30 PCs at work (my department has about 15 people), the mean would jump dramatically, and I really don't know if people would change their definition of the "average" to reflect the new mean, or stick with the mode.

      --
      My book about LSD and Self-Discovery
      Also on facebook as: DroppingAcidDaleBewan
    20. Re:Yeah by Jedi+Alec · · Score: 1

      You know, every single person I have ever heard say "most people are idiots" has never been all that high a wattage bulb themselves. Maybe they were book smart in one or two areas, but get outside their intellectual comfort zone, and forget it. This seems especially true of computer geeks.

      For one thing, they seem to consistently mix up the concepts of intelligence and knowledge. Heck, considering how much knowledge an ape has about survival techniques in a jungle environment they must be vastly more intelligent than the lot of us. And quite frankly, getting one of them to replace kdawson would probably be an improvement...

      Oooook?

      --

      People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
    21. Re:Yeah by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 1

      We're still not at the root of the issue.

      The true conclusion is that people are people, and that is how Tautology Club came to be a club about tautology.

      --
      Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
  3. Windows Joke by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    Why do Employees like Microsoft Windows?
    Employees like Microsoft Windows because they can have an excuse to be by the water cooler while the Technician re-installs their OS for them.

    Why do Managers like Windows?
    Windows allowed them to have the latest and greatest in computer hardware, largest hard drive, most memory, fastest CPU, and other new hardware. With all this no Employee could remote login to their system and slow down the Screen Saver. Because the Manager wanted to find out if the Cast-away escaped from the island.

    1. Re:Windows Joke by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Why do Employees like Microsoft Windows? Employees like Microsoft Windows because they can have an excuse to be by the water cooler while the Technician re-installs their OS for them.

      Why do Managers like Windows? Windows allowed them to have the latest and greatest in computer hardware, largest hard drive, most memory, fastest CPU, and other new hardware. With all this no Employee could remote login to their system and slow down the Screen Saver. Because the Manager wanted to find out if the Cast-away escaped from the island.

      1992 called. It doesn't want these jokes back, and says you can keep them.

    2. Re:Windows Joke by Opportunist · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Why does IT like Windows?

      Two words: Job security

      Blunt and brutal as it sounds, I'm all for Windows in a work environment, even though I don't want to be subjected to it in my private space. Hey, at home I need to be productive! At work, I need to be certain I still have a job tomorrow. And, bluntly again, that's more secure with a system that acts "weird" from time to time and keeps failing on the user than with a system you set up once and run 'til the end of time. For crying out loud, Linux even does generation changes without aid from IT, can you imagine what that would mean to your job? Imagine Linux being used in office, with the new versions quietly installing themselves while all the software keeps working!

      Tell me you don't prefer a system that needs YOU to go there and install it, then breaks every kind of compatibility and keeps you busy and employed for ... well, at least 'til the next generation of system needs to be installed.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    3. Re:Windows Joke by jc42 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Blunt and brutal as it sounds, ... ... I've occasionally run across this reasoning told as a joke, shown it to friends whose business is supporting Windows, and told that it's no joke at all. The typical response is along the lines of: Hey, I've installed linux for a few customers. Each time, it only took me an hour or so, and that's all I got paid for. Then I never heard from them again until they wanted someone for another hour to do an install on a new machine. OTOH, with my Windows clients, I typically get paid for at least a full day to install anything, and then I get called back for half- or full-days whenever the system shoots itself in the foot. We'd be fools to advocate a system like linux when Windows produces two to three orders of magnitude more billable time for us. Of course, we all use linux and/or OS X at home, but that's not where the support business is.

      As long as the suckers^Wclients continue to act like they do and fall for the "market leader" sales propaganda, this isn't going to change. It's been like this in the computing industry since at least the 1960s, so don't expect it to change during your lifetime.

      --
      Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
    4. Re:Windows Joke by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That's like saying you like the kid that breaks glass, because you as a glazier stay in business. In reality, generating useless work costs the whole society.

      Are you allowed to think about where your society -- the large family of the people of the USA -- is going as a whole, or would that be evil socialism?

    5. Re:Windows Joke by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Linux even does generation changes without aid from IT, can you imagine what that would mean to your job? Imagine Linux being used in office, with the new versions quietly installing themselves while all the software keeps working

      And please remind me again, which Linux desktop is able to deliver on that promise?

    6. Re:Windows Joke by flappinbooger · · Score: 2, Funny

      The other day the sarcastic side of me was wishing I could send a thank-you card to russia and/or china and/or the koobface gang. The rogue security tools are great for business.

      Then, perhaps a fruit basket to the Symantec gang for producing completely useless and overpriced crap software that overly trusting people rely on.

      carry on!

      No, really, I am all about helping people and fixing their computers as effectively and quickly as possible, but.... wow.... just wow.

      --
      Flappinbooger isn't my real name
    7. Re:Windows Joke by mjwx · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Why does IT like Windows?

      Two words: Job security

      Blunt and brutal as it sounds, I'm all for Windows in a work environment, even though I don't want to be subjected to it in my private space. Hey, at home I need to be productive! At work, I need to be certain I still have a job tomorrow. And, bluntly again, that's more secure with a system that acts "weird" from time to time and keeps failing on the user than with a system you set up once and run 'til the end of time. For crying out loud, Linux even does generation changes without aid from IT, can you imagine what that would mean to your job? Imagine Linux being used in office, with the new versions quietly installing themselves while all the software keeps working!

      Tell me you don't prefer a system that needs YOU to go there and install it, then breaks every kind of compatibility and keeps you busy and employed for ... well, at least 'til the next generation of system needs to be installed.

      I agree with your principal but it applies to more then just windows.

      Put Linux onto everyone's computer and even if it works perfectly you will still have problems because you cant control users. Users will have problems no matter what, so tech support is always needed. Systems will need to be upgraded, logs need to be read so syadmins will still be needed. Linux will not stop the business from needing/wanting new functionality or new software from being developed. Yes the IT landscape would change radically (it does this on a regular basis anyway IMHO) if we all of a sudden switched to Linux but it would not kill job security for most IT workers.

      Putting Linux onto most desktops would kill many current security headaches, but it will create some new ones and a few of the old ones will remain (social engineering attacks immediately spring to mind).

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    8. Re:Windows Joke by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      I went into the security business out of the desire to actually increase security and take away reasons for more "controlled" computers from governments and companies that try to push "trusted" computing. My original goal was honestly to give people better security tools and educate them.

      The longer I spend in the biz, and the more I see how much money you can actually earn by surprisingly little work, the more I catch myself wishing people would never wisen up. People don't want to learn. First I was bitter when I realized that. Then greed set in and now I'm quite content.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    9. Re:Windows Joke by TheLink · · Score: 1

      Same if you are a IT Manager or CIO.

      Clueless future bosses/boardmembers (who are likely to pay you more $$$$$$) are more likely to be impressed when you say: I was leading a department of 30 personnel providing IT support to the entire company.

      Than: it was just me and two others.

      Plus face it, wouldn't you rather work for a company that would give you a department budget that allows for 30 personnel etc?

      Then when HQ says we're cutting 10% globally, and no we don't care even if you are doing well and are short on staff. You can far more easily sack the 3 people on your staff who you know don't actually do much (but aren't "rowing backwards").

      When it's just you and two others, at least one of you might have to take a paycut... And if the cut is 33%, your personal workload goes up a lot more if now there's only 2 people in your team including you. Compared to 20 down from 30...

      I heard many navy ships were staffed similarly - so they could lose a lot of personnel and still have enough to operate the ship.

      --
    10. Re:Windows Joke by MaskedSlacker · · Score: 1

      Definitely evil socialism, duh. Also, this is why propping up failed companies ISN'T socialism. 'Cause its bad for society in the same way.

    11. Re:Windows Joke by somersault · · Score: 1

      Personally I work for a small company and IT support is only part of my job role. I have much more fun when I'm actually coding. But anyway, very few of our problems over the last few years have involved malware or security issues - most of the time any "support" I do just involves helping people to actually read error messages or perform some simple task. I have had to help the same guy connect up his wireless mouse and keyboard 3 times in the last week. I don't know why he even has a wireless mouse and keyboard, there's plenty of space on his desk for a couple of extra cables, and they're a lot more likely to work next time he boots up his computer. People are idiots..

      --
      which is totally what she said
    12. Re:Windows Joke by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Lemme guess: Middle to upper level manager?

      For them it seems to be some sort of weird status symbol. Not being tethered to their desk and being tied down by cables or something like that.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    13. Re:Windows Joke by somersault · · Score: 1

      I'm not even sure if he chose them himself - but yes he's our new Stores Manager. For some reason he keeps checking his network cable is plugged into the wall securely when the keyboard stops working.

      --
      which is totally what she said
    14. Re:Windows Joke by Caetel · · Score: 1

      At least for in house support, the majority of the calls I receive are PEBKAC rather than system issues. I can't imagine how introducing a OS which is foreign to most people is going to reduce that number.

    15. Re:Windows Joke by Hanul · · Score: 1

      I don't understand why people are doing jobs that are per se senseless. It makes no sense to support an OS, which is so crappy (I don't suggest Windows is ;-) it needs a support industry to get it "working". And all just to have a job. Life should offer more than that.

    16. Re:Windows Joke by guruevi · · Score: 1

      I don't know. Users don't seem to be able to 'break' Linux. I have installed Linux on a couple of family members' computers and I haven't had a single complaint since. Also at work, we use both Mac and Linux with about 3 Windows workstations, 8 dual boots and 6 virtual machines. I am at the Windows installs at least every other day troubleshooting some type of complaint, error or problem. I am only at the Mac's when Adobe messes up (Found out yesterday that InDesign doesn't support scratch disks larger than 2TB) and I am only at the Linux workstations when somebody doesn't understand a MATLAB error message (which has been once last year).

      I think the main problem with Windows in my environment is even though people are smart (PhD's and whatnot), Windows likes to retain settings from one session to the other (volume settings, display settings, hardware settings, ...) and the interfaces to change those settings are very inconveniently placed, inconsistent, change by vendor (sound card interfaces change between the RealTek, Creative and Microsoft drivers, ATi and NVidia also like their own control panels) and not very unified (the selection of the sound card responsible for output is in control panel, while all the volume controls are in a separate window). Scripting of system functions is hard to do (unlike Apple's AppleScript or Linux/Unix you-can-always-do-everything-from-command-line) and central control is expensive (you need Windows Server @ the price of 2 more machines and a full-time admin to manage it.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    17. Re:Windows Joke by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Personally I work for a small company and IT support is only part of my job role

      I have found that there are two main criteria which determine what percentage of your time you spend cleaning malware from Windows. The first is the extent to which you are allowed to lock the systems down. The second is the technical ability of your users. If you are at a school or something, you will spend a lot of time cleaning malware, because you have a lot of lame users infecting boxes which are practically unlocked. If you are at a design firm, you can probably train the architects and such to not go to pornsites all day. They have their own computers and can do that stuff from the comfort of their own home.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    18. Re:Windows Joke by plague3106 · · Score: 1

      I've setup Windows 7 for a client, and locked them down just as they would be on linux. They haven't been able to break Windows either. They also like the features of Windows 7, and can continue to use the same software they're familiar with.

      The problem with Windows was everyone running as admin. Finally MS started to tackle that problem, and life is good.

    19. Re:Windows Joke by DarthVain · · Score: 1

      Not really. It is the other way around. Which is way MANAGERS like it. Replaceable staff.

      Everyone and his dog has a MS certificate of some kind. You can also go and get one on a long weekend. Besides, most of the IT corporate world you deal with offers support in that. Be in your various software vendors, or your hardware lease.

      Now try and go out and find a good Linux staff. You actually usually have to find a CS graduate for god sakes! Not only that, replacing them is a bitch as you can't just hire any damn flunky out there. Because of all that, they actually wish to get paid also!

      Seriously if you think IT folks make these decisions your on crack. It is an easy choice for a Manager.

    20. Re:Windows Joke by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is not about the OS so much as it is about the ongoing, monthly support contracts. Cha - Fucking - Ching!!!!

      "Kiss the rings bitches!"

    21. Re:Windows Joke by JumpDrive · · Score: 1

      Hell , I used to work for a company where part of our business was supporting Windows. We also did development. After a number of frustrating weeks with patches we switched our development over to Linux systems, because it was more reliable and we could get things done. We talked about starting to expand linux installations to customer sites, but were deeply concerned that we would lose a constant revenue stream if we did. So if we were asked, we just told customers that Linux was to difficult to install and maintain in a corporate environment and was really only good in an environment with a lot of computer geeks. They would buy it, never thinking about why our laptops were linux and if you came to our offices most of us were running linux on the desktop and occassionally the CEO would tell them our servers were running linux. The main place where we ran Windows was in the lab, so we could test issues with Windows systems.

      The main thing holding linux back from adoption in coorporate and business environments is an Office Suite. Yes, there is Open Office, but it doesn't have the functionality of MS Office. The other Suite issue is compatibility. For some reason people have this notion that you can't ask other people to resend a document in a format your office suite can read. This used to happen all the time, but now when I talk to someone they act like "What are you talking about? I can't just ask someone to resend me a document using another office suite format".

    22. Re:Windows Joke by JumpDrive · · Score: 1

      It seems to work for the accounting industry. Do you know how many accountants/companies would be out of work if we just went to a flat tax? Do you know how many people in healthcare administration would be out of work if we just went to single payer? So if all of these industries can have a boondoggle why can't we?
      I get paid to do work, if that work involves fixing something that shouldn't be broke, well so be it.

      And they usually pay me a lot more to tell them what they want to hear.

    23. Re:Windows Joke by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I used to work at a place that was half AIX, half Windows. The AIX guy spent most of his day "writing scripts"(playing nethack) and the 5 windows guys spent most of their day handholding users, installing software on the locked-down machines, or reinstalling windows on the machines that couldn't be locked down(i.e. managers').

      Unfortunately, it seemed that nothing ever went wrong with AIX, because it was usually fixed before anyone knew about it and managers zoned out for his part of the monthly management meetings. So when they had to cut back, instead of axing one of the windows guys, they sent them to a 3-day "learn AIX" class and axed the AIX guy.

      I was perversely pleased the first time something did go wrong and they couldn't fix it, because the cutbacks to pay for becoming an all-windows shop encouraged me to jump ship.

    24. Re:Windows Joke by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Get out of here you gitdarn good for nuthin' commie!

      I's gots to get mine. I'm entitled to it. Everyone else can pull themselves up by the bootstraps.

    25. Re:Windows Joke by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, Castaway. That was the best screensaver ever invented. I used to love the flying toasters, but then I saw poor Johnny Castaway on his island, and never looked back.

    26. Re:Windows Joke by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      That's the theory, yes. In practice, though, the systems are quirky enough that you can't just fire a guy and hire the next Minesweeper Consultant and Solitare Expert. A manager might do that once 'til he finds out that you can have the best trained guy in the world, it will still take him a while to see just why the company's special motley crew of software exhibits these quirks and deadlocks.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    27. Re:Windows Joke by aafiske · · Score: 1

      Yeah, linux is some magical fairyland where everything works and the computers never need to be rebooted or even upgraded as often because it's just so fast.

      Honestly, "new versions quietly installing themselves while all the software keeps working" the hugest crock of shit I've heard in a long, long time. New kernels constantly break existing software, especially graphics drivers and virtual machines. No one wants to walk into work and find out all their virtual machines were magically broken overnight and IT is looking into it. Or better yet, three weeks later when they restart they're stuck at a commandline with some cryptic error messages and need to learn to browse the web in lynx while they google for what the hell is going wrong.

      I'm not saying Windows is all kittens and puppies and sugar either. But linux is hardly as wonderful as everyone makes it out to be.

    28. Re:Windows Joke by mjwx · · Score: 1

      I don't know. Users don't seem to be able to 'break' Linux.

      Users cant break Linux now but wait until they get some minimal training and experience.

      Right now most Linux users are extremely bright professionals that can handle simple problems on their own (I like these people, they make my life easier) or people who are so scared of their computer they are afraid to do absolutely anything. The so called "power user" is 100% Windows, when they make the transition to Linux they will learn just enough to make themselves dangerous, just like they are on Windows.

      I agree with your second point, no separation of user setting/privileges in Windows is a massive problem. I guess this is why most places have a 1 user per machine policy, personally I re-image anything before I re-assign it to new user.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    29. Re:Windows Joke by mjwx · · Score: 1

      I've setup Windows 7 for a client, and locked them down just as they would be on linux. They haven't been able to break Windows either. They also like the features of Windows 7, and can continue to use the same software they're familiar with.

      HEADLINE: 1 user is unable to get admin rights on their windows boxen
      BYLINE: probably because they never tried.

      I know many people, including some non IT people who will simply hack a windows box because they are bored at a client site. I counter your anecdotal evidence with some anecdotal evidence of my own.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
  4. Interesting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I agree with this assesment. I work at an IT company that supports many different companies and users of different size. We are a small operation (10 techs).

    Most security recommendations are rejected due to the cost of implementation when dealing with corporate customers. Smaller businesses and individual users will reject them due to the lack of perceived risk.

    Simple example is when a salon did not want to spend the 30 minutes in labor secure their wireless network because guests use it. We said no problem and offered to setup a guest network and secure their internal wireless network. No problems with their Cisco SA. They still did not want to do it. Their reasoning was not the $50 one time cost but, "who would want to go to the trouble of accessing our data? we have nothing sensitive"

    They realized their customer databases were password protected within that application, understood they had nothing on their workstations or shares to hide, and basically said fuck it when we were offering a low cost, non-invasive, transparent to their customers solution.

    That's just one example. Lots of these "dumb endusers" fully understand the security and the solution and the cost, but feel they are not a valuable enough target to worry about it.

    1. Re:Interesting by jemtallon · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The article suggests it's time for a radical shift in how we make security recommendations based on cost-benefit analysis, rather than just reporting each possible attack and recommending to fix it. The argument is that when you flood users with too many recommendations, they begin to reject any security recommendations that cost they too much time, hastle, or resources. The more warnings you throw at them, the more accustomed they become to rejecting them and eventually they get a mentality where they deny all recommendations and wait for an attack to happen, then learn their lesson for that one attack only.

      In this case, the cost was $50 up front but the indirect cost would be needing to learn how to add new devices to the secured wireless, store yet another password somewhere, possibly change the password as problems occurred: all of which would likely lead to having network outages and having your team come back to fix it when it breaks. The benefit in their mind was that someone in the parking lot couldn't check their facebook. So instead they leave it open and run a small risk of viruses from people sharing the connection, an even smaller risk of their Internet connection being used for illegal activity, and an even smaller risk of being attacked for their data. It isn't that they're dumb, it's that the security industry hasn't given them enough return for their investment. Most business users I've ever known are used to making snap judgements on worth/value. They know they don't have to be perfect, just slightly better than their competition and they're always asking themselves if the company next door went to "all this trouble." They're just applying that same logic to the security industry. If we made it less costly, they'd buy in because it'd be an easy way to get ahead of their competitors. For a little while.

    2. Re:Interesting by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 1

      "Lots of these "dumb endusers" fully understand the security and the solution and the cost,"

      Not my experience, not by a long shot. Most people do not care enough about security to learn about it. For example, advising users to actually read warnings about SSL -- after 5 words, they are bored and go back to ignoring SSL warnings (and in some cases, falling victim to MITM attacks). We are not talking about costly solutions here, just basic, unintrusive guidelines that people are ignoring.

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    3. Re:Interesting by slimjim8094 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      But in that instance they're just being dumb. All it takes is one malicious kid, who likes credit card numbers, waiting for a haircut and firing up nmap and pull down the customer DB, or fire up Metasploit.

      They feel they're not a valuable enough target, but are they right? Maybe - it's hard to say for sure. But what's the cost of being wrong? For a smallish salon, almost definitely enough to put them entirely out of business.

      And the cost being $50? They're simply being stupid. None of this bullshit "analyzing the economic realities and making the logical choice", just stupid.

      Fact of the matter is, all this stuff only needs to happen once - especially for a small business. No security can prevent a super-hacker-paratrooper team from taking everything, but it can improve a once-in-5-years odd from some kid, to a once-in-1000-years odd.

      Some security *is* ridiculous. But most of it isn't. You provide a great anecdote but I suspect it's fairly common.

      Security people are a bit like doctors. It's not really up to the patient to tell the doctor how to do their job, in most cases. Witness the whole autism-vaccine BS. In both professions, the customer can override the professional advice, but it's not a good idea.

      Carrying the analogy a bit further: Reasonable security is a bit like a prostate exam. It's easy and straightforward, a little unpleasant, and entirely unnecessary until it saves your life. Is it rational to forgo a prostate exam because "why would I need a prostate exam? I don't have cancer"

      --
      I have developed a truly marvelous proof of this comment, which this signature is too narrow to contain.
    4. Re:Interesting by mikael_j · · Score: 1

      I think you're wrong, most of them don't fully understand the issues, they just think "me not big rich company with lots of sooper secrit datas, me no waste money on intarwebs man" (yeah, I'm an ass) even though they may very well have good reason to avoid getting themselves hijacked by some random bot or kid (Just because you don't have millions in the bank doesn't mean you're not interesting to a criminal or that it wont hurt for you if all your money disappears, or how about "oh, and what's this $200k loan? I don't remember taking out another OH SHIT!"?)

      It's the same kind of reasoning that people use when they choose not to wear a seatbelt when driving, but while most drivers don't know the odds of getting in a crash most computer users don't even know what the risks are (it would be like a driver being only vaguely aware of "bad things" possibly happening if he doesn't drive safely and doesn't wear a seatbelt), I've seen way too many machines that had bots known for stealing banking info on them where the owner of the machine just handwaved away my concerns with some "oh well, nothing bad has happened so far and it's not like anyone would bother stealing from me..." spiel. My response in those cases is to point out that as a friend I will help them fix their problem now but if they decline I will hang up if they call me in the future with any kind of computer problem.

      --
      Greylisting is to SMTP as NAT is to IPv4
    5. Re:Interesting by AuMatar · · Score: 5, Insightful

      And 99% of the time they're right to ignore it. Its quite simple- unless a site is getting my financial info, what do they have to lose? Nothing, unless they're stupid enough to use the same password as their email. And thats a rule you can get many of them to follow.

      I'm a computer programmer, and except when I'm coding I've stopped giving a shit. I use the same default password everywhere except email and finance places, because I don't care. Oh no, you can now edit my slashdot and video game forum accounts. How can I live? I don't download files from untrusted sources, so I don't bother with antivirus. I don't bother with updates because they break stuff more often than I see any benefit to it. If I actually started dealing with all that shit it would take serious effort. It's just not worth it.

      You can get 99% of the benefits with 5% of the effort- don't use the same password on your email as anything else, don't use the same password on finance stuff and anything else, don't download anything you aren't 100% about, don't trust any links in email. That's all you need to do.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    6. Re:Interesting by thegrassyknowl · · Score: 1

      "who would want to go to the trouble of accessing our data? we have nothing sensitive"

      Every computer has something sensitive on it or passing through it. The user probably accesses his Internet banking accounts from it, or his webmail. What really pissed me off when trying to convince users to do things more securely was that even after telling them that the bad guy doesn't care who they are because in many cases the bad guy is just a computer program that goes looking for low hanging fruit, they still used that same argument.

      There is no helping some people. Security warnings are a pain for these people. They don't even read SSL certificate errors on their banking sites. They just keep clicking let me in let me in and submit their login details.

      I've argued until I was blue in the face with people (with a title) more senior than me who simply refused to take 20 minutes per server they deployed to do basic tasks like ensure nothing was exposed to the Internet that didn't need to be and installing basic intrusion detection and having the logs sent to a remote secure log server. These same "senior IT experts" used the same argument as the poor clueless user. I've actually watched one of these 'experts' expose database ports to the greater Internet with no protection and not even change the default admin password that the distro set. Then the moron spends days wondering why his database was constantly being emptied out. When I pointed to the logs which clearly showed all the delete commands coming from an IP address with no place accessing our database he had the gall to tell me I was a liar and that nobody would want to do that to us because we were too small to care about.

      If the so-called senior experts are spouting this argument to the users then how will the user ever learn?

      The problem in the industry: there's a lot of people with little or no clue who installed Windows once or twice and are now out there providing "IT support and services". It's the blind leading the blind. The user doesn't want to go to the effort of being secure because it takes time and requires thinking. When some dickhead comes in and tells them that they aren't an important target and needn't to worry the user takes the easy path out. User education would work better if the message was clear and consistent.

      As you can tell I hate these fly by night morons who think they are experts. I've worked with my fair share in the past and nothing shits me more than having to go in and clean up their mess; because it's usually something that was easily prevented and I shouldn't have to be wasting my time on.

      I've also completely ignored the social aspect of the user which is that they assume that most everyone else is good and there are very few people out to get them. That's a hard one to get around, but usually explaining that one bad person with a computer can easily attack hundreds of people soon sorts that out. A bit of good old fashioned paranoia is useful in computer security.

      --
      I drink to make other people interesting!
    7. Re:Interesting by Jer · · Score: 5, Insightful

      For example, advising users to actually read warnings about SSL -- after 5 words, they are bored and go back to ignoring SSL warnings (and in some cases, falling victim to MITM attacks). We are not talking about costly solutions here, just basic, unintrusive guidelines that people are ignoring.

      This is actually one of the examples from TFA. The contention is that the statistics show that a majority of the certificate errors that users run across are false positives and ignoring them is perfectly harmless. And the TFA goes on to point out that a phisher would be pretty damn stupid to go to all the trouble to setup a fake domain and then put a broken certificate on it to throw up a warning and cause a potential victim to take a second look at the site and make sure it isn't something suspicious.

      And IT people need to remember that what sounds like a "basic, unintrusive guideline" to us often sounds like babble, pointless rigmarole to make their jobs harder, or an IT person pulling an ego trip to the end users. The last one is especially bad because many users can't tell the difference between "arbitrary rule handed down by IT that makes their jobs easier while making my life harder" and "good solid advice handed down by IT for a very good reason." When they can't tell the difference, they'll just assume it's in the first camp and ignore it. If you're going to make their lives harder, you better have a damn good reason for it.

    8. Re:Interesting by Sancho · · Score: 1

      Witness the whole autism-vaccine BS.

      My six year old son is autistic. You have no idea what you're saying. You have no idea what causes autism and have no idea how desperate a parent is for answers, solutions, or even a little respite care. I'd rather my son get measles than continue to have autism, and you are absolutely not qualified to opine on his quality of life with zero education or information on this matter. If you want to know more, you can ask for it, but the level of ignorance you're displaying is repugnant, you insensitive clod.

      That's a good example. Please look up the recent study as to how breast cancer exams are costing billions of unnecessary dollars annually. It was determined that the costs for all the exams outweigh the costs of treating the disease in nearly all cases. Look it up.

      Not the original poster, but I was curious to know if you think that there is a link between vaccines and autism, or if you just think that being rude about it and calling it BS is uncalled for due to the sensitive nature of the condition?

      I can get that it would be hard. I mean, in a very small way, I can get it. I doubt I could possibly understand how hard it would be unless I was a parent of a child with autism. And I can definitely understand desperately trying to find an answer to the question "Why?!"

      The problem is that sometimes there's no answer. Sometimes bad things happen to good people. It's not fair, but it happens. But campaigning against vaccines is wrong. They unequivocally save more lives than they harm, even if there is a link to autism. And the supposed link is full of holes; it comes from a correlation of interpreted data over time. It's exactly the same type of correlation that people joke about when they say that as piracy goes down, global warming goes up. I can feel very sorry for someone who has to raise a child with autism without being okay about them trying to get others to stop vaccinating their own children. Pain or not, they are causing damage with their claims.

      Misguided people can cause problems, even if they don't mean to.

    9. Re:Interesting by peragrin · · Score: 1

      $50 one time cost my ass. I can't get that setup at work because Cisco has screwed up the settings three times and they charge Every time it goes back even if they were the ones who fscked up the settings. So I can't get wireless as it has cost our company some $300 more than what it should have the first time around. because you know who pays for shipping both ways?

      Security that costs time and money once to implement is tough to get through, when you have to do it three more times because cisco is staffed by morons things get a lot more complicated.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    10. Re:Interesting by publiclurker · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Your misguided ranting about autism is the perfect example of why some people cannot be trusted to make decisions. Just because you want to find someone to blame does not make it acceptable to spew out uninformed bullshit which may well kill anyone ignorant enough to listen to you. And yes, I have a child with autism (aspergers actually), but I also have the ability to think rationally. something you should stop and do once in a while for everyone's sake.

    11. Re:Interesting by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 2, Insightful

      All it takes is one malicious kid, who likes credit card numbers, waiting for a haircut and firing up nmap and pull down the customer DB, or fire up Metasploit.

      That would only do that kid any good if the salon keeps the customer credit card numbers in their database. What competitive advantage does the salon gain from storing their customers' credit card numbers? I bet it would cost them a lot less than $50 to not store their customers' credit card numbers

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    12. Re:Interesting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But in that instance they're just being dumb. All it takes is one malicious kid, who likes credit card numbers, waiting for a haircut and firing up nmap and pull down the customer DB, or fire up Metasploit.

      Why risk angering the nice man who's about to be holding a razor to your throat?

    13. Re:Interesting by BobMcD · · Score: 1

      But campaigning against vaccines is wrong. They unequivocally save more lives than they harm, even if there is a link to autism.

      On this we agree. And for a child with no viable risk for the condition, I can certainly see no harm in them. I would not campaign against the vaccines themselves.

      I do, however, campaign for the right to choose for your own selves and your own children. We do not have this right, due to many, like your self, being certain we are wrong.

      I can feel very sorry for someone who has to raise a child with autism without being okay about them trying to get others to stop vaccinating their own children.

      Most parents of an autistic child would probably be happy for vaccines to be offered, but not required. I know I would.

      Not the original poster, but I was curious to know if you think that there is a link between vaccines and autism, or if you just think that being rude about it and calling it BS is uncalled for due to the sensitive nature of the condition?

      Both, actually. I think it is rude, and I think that one of the new behaviors adopted in the 80's or so have caused the condition to present where it would have otherwise lain dormant. It may not be vaccines, but I reserve the right to weigh the risks for myself and for my children, and for their children.

    14. Re:Interesting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Aspergers, while tragic, would be an improvement.

      Meanwhile, as I said in my other post, I reserve the right to choose. You are not justified in preventing me that choice, no matter what you may be presently afraid of...

      Swine flu, anyone?

      Likewise, you're ignoring the facts against your argument, and are labeling 'uninformed bullshit' things which both cannot be ethically studies and would thwart billions of dollars of pharmaceutical industry. Skepticism is healthy, and you're in not place to label anything bullshit.

    15. Re:Interesting by slimjim8094 · · Score: 1

      You're ranting and raving. Go have a heart attack and try to manage it yourself -- good luck.

      If you're deeply insulted about the fact that there is no link between autism and vaccines, too bad. If you're also insulted by my taking offense at parents like you who perpetuate the myth, kindly fuck off.

      I've studied biotechnology. I've read the papers claiming the link, and understood them. I've read the papers questioning the paper, and understood *them*. I agree with the second class of papers, which were far more rigorous. What specific, concrete knowledge do *you* have about this? Something you read online? Something you heard?

      Your opinion is EXACTLY what's wrong with healthcare today. I don't claim to understand what it's like to have a son with autism, and I'm sorry that such a thing has happened to you, but sometimes bad things happen to good people. For no reason. It's actually the reason I'm an atheist.

      In any case, your situation is irrelevant to everybody but yourself and your son. Get it through your head: society does not care. It sounds harsh, and it is, but so is life - as you have experienced. I can understand the desperation, the search for answers, wanting there to be a reason... sorry, there isn't one.

      If I'm able to insult you specifically by a simple comment on a forum, this says more about you than it does about me.

      --
      I have developed a truly marvelous proof of this comment, which this signature is too narrow to contain.
    16. Re:Interesting by publiclurker · · Score: 1

      Your right to choose is limited when other people are forced to live with the consequences of your ill-informed choices. And you are not skeptical, you are merely an ignorant fool mouthing things that you are obviously not competent enough to comprehend. Just because you have been around wasting space for a certain amount of time, does not automatically give your verbal diarrhea any legitimacy whatsoever. Those of us that are competent, we have not only the right but the duty to call out bullshit wherever it occurs, less other be forced to suffer from the results of your shameful ignorance. And what about swine flue? Why don't you give us yet another reason to ridicule your ignorance?

    17. Re:Interesting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They realized their customer databases were password protected within that application, understood they had nothing on their workstations or shares to hide, and basically said fuck it when we were offering a low cost, non-invasive, transparent to their customers solution.

      That's just one example. Lots of these "dumb endusers" fully understand the security and the solution and the cost, but feel they are not a valuable enough target to worry about it.

      That's far from a complete risk assessment, in fact it's a great example of how users can fail to understand the complete implications and thus the cost benefit of security measures.

      The first customer who connects with their malware-infested laptop and is able to propogate a virus via a remote execution exploit is going to cost a lot more in cleanup than a $50 config. I'd assume at least one of their workstations has such a vulnerability - why bother installing security updates when you've got nothing worth securing, right?

    18. Re:Interesting by BobMcD · · Score: 1

      In any case, your situation is irrelevant to everybody but yourself and your son. Get it through your head: society does not care.

      That's actually excellent. When I choose not to vaccinate him, remember this position, and you'll get no complaint from me.

    19. Re:Interesting by Henneshoe · · Score: 1

      I suppose if the kid got into my salon's database he/she would learn my name, phone number, address, and that I like my hair cut with a number 2 guard and my sideburns trimmed. I could be concerned if 75% of this information was not in the White Pages.

    20. Re:Interesting by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      Only an idiot goes to a doctor with mild symptoms expecting to be cured. Heck, even with strong symptoms, you don't go the doctor to be cured. You go to the doctor to confirm whether or not you have something that a) really is serious and b) can be treated. You also go to the doctor when you are well, to establish baselines and screen for things that don't develop symptoms until it is too late.

      But whether or not you get treatment does not determine whether or not the visit was worthwhile. This is a problem with the health care system, but not the way you think.

      My six year old son is autistic. You have no idea what you're saying.

      Having a kid with autism does not an expert make. We've done the experiment on a massive scale and the results continually come back (and are even repeated here on slashdot with depressing frequency, as it really shouldn't be news any more.) with high confidence: We don't know what causes autism, but it isn't vaccines.

      That's a good example. Please look up the recent study as to how breast cancer exams are costing billions of unnecessary dollars annually. It was determined that the costs for all the exams outweigh the costs of treating the disease in nearly all cases. Look it up.

      Yes, please do. It wasn't the money costs they were talking about, but the lifetime cumulative radiological dose. In other words, they were weighing the health risks of the test itself vs. the benefits of having the results of the test, and determined that, as a group, we're doing too many tests.

      The problem is that when "number of people who didn't get cancer from a test they didn't take (but would've if they'd taken it)" is larger than "number of people whose cancer wasn't detected as a result of not taking the test soon enough" (even when the ratio is sufficient to be able to determine from statistics that it is the case) only people in the latter group will ever make the news. For some reason the press isn't interested in people to whom nothing bad happened, however extraordinary it's not happening really is.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    21. Re:Interesting by countertrolling · · Score: 1

      don't use the same password on your email as anything else, don't use the same password on finance stuff and anything else, don't download anything you aren't 100% about, don't trust any links in email. That's all you need to do.

      Couple more things. Never let anybody put their infected USB stick into your machine. These things are worse than floppies, and with no real write protection. I've found viruses on cameras cards too.

      --
      For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
    22. Re:Interesting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you'll kindly keep him where he can't fuck with anyone else's immunity... You know, like on the moon.

    23. Re:Interesting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And when he dies of complications from a disease he should be vaccinated from, you have no one to blame but yourself.

    24. Re:Interesting by Burz · · Score: 1

      And the TFA goes on to point out that a phisher would be pretty damn stupid to go to all the trouble to setup a fake domain and then put a broken certificate on it to throw up a warning and cause a potential victim to take a second look at the site and make sure it isn't something suspicious.

      That's why the user has to look at the site's domain at the same moment they check for the little lock icon. I think it was Firefox 3.0 that placed both the domain name and the lock side-by-side in the status bar--This was a great move. Later, they removed both from the status bar because they wanted people to focus on the new EV color scheme in the address bar.

      Honestly, browser makers need to decide on properly representing security context in the GUI and then stop jerking people around with semantically vague stuff that keeps changing. I feel like an idiot for training users on how to verify a secure browser connection; needless to say, they don't know how to do it anymore.

    25. Re:Interesting by Jedi+Alec · · Score: 1

      Couple more things. Never let anybody put their infected USB stick into your machine. These things are worse than floppies, and with no real write protection. I've found viruses on cameras cards too.

      Even better idea...don't auto-execute USB sticks?

      Or does the malware crawl from the stick to your pc all by itself even when no files are accessed?

      --

      People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
    26. Re:Interesting by Jedi+Alec · · Score: 1

      My six year old son is autistic. You have no idea what you're saying. You have no idea what causes autism and have no idea how desperate a parent is for answers, solutions, or even a little respite care. I'd rather my son get measles than continue to have autism, and you are absolutely not qualified to opine on his quality of life with zero education or information on this matter. If you want to know more, you can ask for it, but the level of ignorance you're displaying is repugnant, you insensitive clod.

      That sucks. Really, I understand.

      Then again, I've been diagnosed as well. And based on the criteria for said diagnosis, the same diagnosis could be made for my father, my uncle, my grandfather and so on. So I'm going to formulate a hypothesis, right here and now, there autism is passed on genetically and exhibits mostly in males. Do I have any evidence? Hardly, but then again, neither do you.

      Being the parent of a kid with autism is a rough ride. I know for a fact that I drove my mom completely crazy because any attempt she made to emotionally connect was the equivalent of running into a rubber wall. But leave finding the blame to the experts and spend your time and energy on something more constructive. Yes, it might even be your genes. Tough shit. Deal with it.

      --

      People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
    27. Re:Interesting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      this actually happened. the bill? well the company can now never again accept credit cards or 2/3 of their business.

      the problem with disaster cost benefit is that its so big, people refuse to believe it. Why on earth would anybody live next to volcano or earthquake central. They do, by forgetting the risk thats a fact,

    28. Re:Interesting by LingNoi · · Score: 1

      This works until your family borrows your computer and screws it up.

    29. Re:Interesting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All it takes is one malicious kid, who likes credit card numbers, waiting for a haircut and firing up nmap and pull down the customer DB, or fire up Metasploit.

      Well, that's not something they really have to worry about...
      What they don't know is that I've actually been actively managing their security for years, from my apartment across the street. I run a Tor node off their wireless, you see, and it's in my interests to make sure their network doesn't go down... and by extension their work-critical systems also need to stay up. Otherwise some consultant will have to come in, might setup proper security or even discover what I'm using it for, and THEN how am I supposed to download all my child porn, send my terrorist communiques, command my botnets, or troll on slashdot?

      Trust me, security is a real headache you DON'T need. The best way to prevent becoming a victim of the "mob" is to become an asset of the "mob".

    30. Re:Interesting by Mikkeles · · Score: 1

      So they do housecalls? Otherwise, why would they need your address.

      --
      Great minds think alike; fools seldom differ.
    31. Re:Interesting by BobMcD · · Score: 1

      Yes, it might even be your genes. Tough shit. Deal with it.

      The difference between your condition (and the symptoms that you feel could be attributed to members of your family) and my son's is environmental.

      My child runs headlong into traffic. He still doesn't speak clearly. He will never empathize with another human, ever. He leaves his teachers and classmates with bleeding wounds, for no just reason. He will likely never leave home.

      This isn't the same thing as you're describing, which is something that even I might fit the qualification for diagnosis.

      Something is different. Believe it or not, I don't really care. But you just can't be allowed to intrude upon my ability to make reasonable decisions about my son's care. You're crazy if you think I'll allow that.

    32. Re:Interesting by BobMcD · · Score: 1

      If you'll kindly keep him where he can't fuck with anyone else's immunity... You know, like on the moon.

      As far as people like you are concerned, this will be true. You'll never be human enough to have contact with the likes of my son, as evidenced by your loving, caring post.

    33. Re:Interesting by BobMcD · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      We've done the experiment on a massive scale and the results continually come back (and are even repeated here on slashdot with depressing frequency, as it really shouldn't be news any more.) with high confidence:

      Bullshit! There's no way you gave one group a placebo, another the vaccine, and induced autism in a third group. There's no way, NO WAY, you have reached any kind of repeatable experimental certainty in human beings.

      You're lying already, either to prop yourself up or shore up a weak argument, but either way I'm done reading what you have to say.

    34. Re:Interesting by BobMcD · · Score: 1

      Yep.

    35. Re:Interesting by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      My six year old son is autistic. You have no idea what you're saying. You have no idea what causes autism and have no idea how desperate a parent is for answers, solutions, or even a little respite care. I'd rather my son get measles than continue to have autism, and you are absolutely not qualified to opine on his quality of life with zero education or information on this matter. If you want to know more, you can ask for it, but the level of ignorance you're displaying is repugnant, you insensitive clod.

      It is a challenge to have an autistic child. The sheer stress of handling everyday life can leave you exhausted and desperate. But what it also does is leave you open to some of the worst evil on earth, that of the huckster or self aggrandiizer who will take advantage of you, preying upon your desperation, The vaccine issue is a perfect example. Multiple studies have shown that the vaccines are not a cause of autism. The vaccines were created because children were dying from the diseases.

      So people who are trying to save children are being demonized.

      And here is the great rub.I would not at all be surprised that there is an environmental cause for a large part of the rise in autism. But what good does it do when a potential cause has been discredited? To not get a child inoculated, and if enough people do this, it means that the diseases can re-establish themselves, and children will die needlessly. All because people believe in a wrong thing, and are willing to continue to believe in it even after it is shown to be a wrong thing.

      This is all to say that it would be so much better to move on and try to find the real culprit. The real culprit is what I want to find.

      --
      Why is this even on SlashDot?... Why is this even on Slashdot?...Why is this even on Slashdot?
    36. Re:Interesting by Henneshoe · · Score: 1

      To send me coupons in the mail.

    37. Re:Interesting by BobMcD · · Score: 1

      We mostly agree, and I do not oppose you vaccinating your children. And once you've completed placebo trials of the vaccines, and followed children from conception to grade school, with repeatable results, I'll jump on your bandwagon.

      All you have so far is a very strong desire for drug companies to profit from vaccines. This is propped up by surveys, which are the junkiest of all sciences. Well, that and you also have a system where it is impossible to sue over the bad impacts of a given vaccine. Courts are pretty good at motivating people to get facts onto the record. Without an adversarial system in place is it any surprise whatsoever that all the evidence (from all the studies sponsored by the drug companies) come out in favor of the vaccines?

      Ask yourself if thiomersal was really, truly removed for PR reasons.

      The cigarette companies said tobacco was safe, too. Remember?

      I need to be allowed to weigh the risks, just as I am allowed to do so with seasonal flu shots. I need this because the science cannot do (or has not done) the necessary work to discover the truth.

    38. Re:Interesting by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1
      The most interesting part about your post is that while you try to chide me with the need for strict science on my part, you appear to be basing your rejection of vaccines on no such thing.

      How much profit do you see drug companies making from one or two times vaccines for children? Is the profit anything compared with putting young people on daily doses of Ritalin or getting people to medicate themselves daily with some cholesterol reducing medicine for the rest of their lives?

      I think I paid something like 25 dollars for my son's vaccines (each) when he was little. Not much profit there. You may disagree, but I believe that the drug companies at least in this case are doing this for a humanitarian reason. At my most cynical, I'd say it's just good P.R.

      And yes, I do believe Thimerosol was removed for P.R. reasons. We do see this occasionally, in cases like the cyclamate ban or the saccharine ban.

      As for tobacco products, it was well known even in the mid 1800's that tobacco use caused cancer. I have a book from just after the civil war that described the maladies caused by use of tobacco. The difference is that the consumptions they spoke of were easily traceable. Patient presents with lung cancer, patient smokes cigars. Similar situation with chewing tobacco. Happens over and over and over again.

      The big difference is that there was easy correlation in the case of tobacco, and the industry fought tooth and nail until they looked very stupid doing so.

      In the thimerosol case, they removed the product from most vaccines based on a rumor. So no winning is there? Fight it, your bad, remove it you're bad.

      As for the truth, I've seen plenty enough in life to know that in many cases, the truth doesn't matter. If truth or whatever is being passed off as the truth isn't in line with a person's expectations or beliefs, they will discard it. And for whatever you or I believe, there is someone out there who fervently beilieves the opposite.

      If you see 10 more studies that say that vaccines with thimerosol are harmless, will you change your mind?

      And that to me is a very important aspect of life in general. It's related to victim's rights. We are in an age where victim's rights are ascendent. Many think this is just wonderful. But it isn't. The victim is actually given too large a part. Stick with me here, I'm not trying to insult anyone.

      Problem is, if someone steals my motorcycle, I want them to be given the death penalty, if someone breaks into my house, I want them shot. A guy two handed me with his stick across the back of my helmet in a hockey game - I wanted him banned for life from the rink. (queue the "So that's your problem Olsoc!) Seriously. I won't think justice is served otherwise. If they break into someone else's house, I'm more likely to be less inclined to think they need capital punishment. It's the perspective. You have a reason to be pissed. But when we are, it does tend to color one's judgment.

      --
      Why is this even on SlashDot?... Why is this even on Slashdot?...Why is this even on Slashdot?
    39. Re:Interesting by BobMcD · · Score: 1

      Not only in my judgement colored to an extreme degree, but this is central to my thesis.

      See, you can vaccinate my son and go home and sleep well that night. The boy goes home with me. When his brother, two years older, gets mauled for daring to play with his own birthday present and comes crying to his father for support - you don't have to deal with it. You're at home, sleeping well, remember?

      My entire life is profoundly different from yours because of this simple thing.

      Barring vaccines is genuinely trivial and if there's the slimmest chance it might be right, I need to use that. It's a little thing called 'sanity'. Abrating people for trying to cope is rather vile, in my opinion, and while you may not be doing that, the words that started this thread certainly were.

      We need placebo trials. NEED them. Or we'll never be sure. We do them for everything except vaccines. Why?

      I still stand by the issues raised by surveys being applied to this situation:

      1) What is autism? In most, if not all, of the surveys people self-report. There is no opportunity to scientifically measure degree. Being a spectrum disorder, I cannot understate how much damage this does to a study of this type. Even here, on a nearby slashdot post, was a person claiming their personal experience with my son's condition was valid. It wasn't, due to the severity. If my son is mildly annoying to people, he may or may not make the study. If he winds up being institutionalized, he may or may not make the study - because we're self-reporting.

      Remember when Dennis Leary got slapped for saying the diagnosis was overused? He wasn't wrong, though he was insensitive. It does. People are lumped in with my son who are not even in the same ballpark. How do studies sort this out when there are no non-behavioral markers for this disorder?

      They can't. This would be equivalent to trying to study red blood cells. If you look hard enough, you'll find them in everyone, and thus they'll correlate to nothing.

      2) There is no data - zero data - about precisely what was in the syringes given to these people who were self-reporting above. Did they get more preservative than usual? How do you know? Who took the measurement? The school can't even keep vaccine records straight for their own purposes, and you're purporting that we can somehow do likewise for the entire sample, historically? Or that such a sample, having precision records for their vaccination history, would not be significantly distinct?

      We all know what correlation does to data. We all know the limitations of the studies proposed.

      That being said, going back to what my night tonight or tomorrow will be like, while others are fast asleep - what's the motivation for attacking me?

      Think about that. Because to me, living under a special kind of duress, I'm going to err on the side of limiting the possibilities. You don't live where I live, but surely you can afford me the freedom to make decisions as though I do live there.

    40. Re:Interesting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have 4 computers at home; Main, Laptop, spare laptop, and media storage computer. No one uses my main computer, ever. My nephews love AQ, if they come over, they use the spare laptop and media computer. (two easiest to reformat for various reasons)

      So yeah, if you know your family might want to use your computer, keep a spare one. They dont need the best computer in the world to check their email or watch netflix.

    41. Re:Interesting by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1
      There is a very good reason we don't have placebo trials. There are some things in which an automatic ethical dilemma is raised. People are so voraciously protective of their children that is is almost impossible to do placebo trials.

      You are very angry because your son experiences autism. So what are you going to do if the re is a placebo test, and you happen to get the placebo, and your child catches the illness he was presumably being vaccinated against. What if he was in the control group, and suffered a injury?

      This is related to the relative dearth of studies involving women and medicines. While true, the fact is that if one woman in a study becomes pregnant, and gives birth to a child with a problem, the study is destroyed, and no court will not hold the company liable, even if obviously unrelated. Even if a defect is well within the statistical noise, it doesn't matter. The protective instinct is so strong and visceral that there is no way to win. And that is why on almost all medicines they out front say that pregnant or nursing mothers should not take them.

      As for "attacking" you, I have no motivation, in fact, any attack is solely your perception, I was under the impression that we were having a conversation in which we just disagreed.

      So I don't want to inflict any further pain on you, so I'll just bow out here. Good luck, hopefully they'll find both a cause and a cure, and we'll have one less heartache in a world that has too many already.

      --
      Why is this even on SlashDot?... Why is this even on Slashdot?...Why is this even on Slashdot?
    42. Re:Interesting by countertrolling · · Score: 1

      Yeah, you have to turn off auto-play completely. Kind of a pain in Vista where you have to go through every little item. The registry hack seems inconsistent. First thing everyone should when they buy one is to remove that U3 crap, it's all malware, and completely format it. Same with external USB hard drives. And the thing is you need to install an anti virus to check the damn things. Simply opening a window can nail you.. because it does access files..

      --
      For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
    43. Re:Interesting by ImprovOmega · · Score: 1

      Bullshit! There's no way you gave one group a placebo, another the vaccine, and induced autism in a third group.

      Out of curiosity, why would you need induced autism in a third group to have a valid study? What would that prove, exactly? (Ignoring the horrific and immoral thought of purposefully giving autism to a group of toddlers).

      The question was: do vaccines cause an increased risk of autism? To answer that you need 2 groups - one that took the vaccine and one that didn't. If autism rates are the same in both, then there is no link between vaccines and autism.

      I mean, I feel for your situation and everything, but you have to let this go. Studies have shown that vaccines do no increase the risk of autism. There's really nothing to gain by sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming "Yes they do! Yes they do!" That energy could be better spent helping in your son's development.

    44. Re:Interesting by BobMcD · · Score: 1

      The question was: do vaccines cause an increased risk of autism?

      Not quite. There's a deeper, more vague suspicion best phrased as: Is there a link between autism and vaccines?

      The third group, which I proposed specifically because it is impossible, is to determine if vaccines make children 'more autistic' then they otherwise would have been.

      This trends the upswing in vaccines in present-day school children against the upswing in autism.

      We used to need, what, half what the kids get today? And none of us died from lack of them...

      But anyway, chasing that link is the reason for asking the question. And since there's no such thing as a socially-challenged mouse, I'm not sure how else you'd ever test it.

      And I have come to grips with that. I'm trying to politely ask that others do likewise.

      That energy could be better spent helping in your son's development.

      Because, if I weren't such a zealot, maybe he'd be normal again. Ouch.

      Again, I only want the freedom to abstain until we can be certain, and I really, genuinely think others are in the wrong to deny me that.

    45. Re:Interesting by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      This trends the upswing in vaccines in present-day school children against the upswing in autism.

      Uh.. what upswing in vaccines? I'm pretty sure I remember reading that vaccination rates are dropping due to fears like yours. Further, what is your proposed mechanism? Is it the vaccine itself? Preservatives in the vaccine which have not actually been in the vaccines in question for two decades?

      There is an obvious link between vaccines and autism: the symptoms for autism don't tend to reveal themselves until around the same time that doctors like to administer vaccines. So all you need to do is find a meta-study that looks at children who were vaccinated at the usual time and children that were vaccinated late and you've got your relationship right there.

      If I were an MD, I'm sure I'd even be able to find one such study, since it's so obvious to do. Still, your claims are the extraordinary ones, since the proscribed course of action has definite, known, severe effects on child and infant mortality rates. The burden is on you.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    46. Re:Interesting by BobMcD · · Score: 1

      I'm not at all sure why we're still at this, three days on now, but...

      Still, your claims are the extraordinary ones, since the proscribed course of action has definite, known, severe effects on child and infant mortality rates.

      First, this is true. If vaccines were to disappear overnight, more children would die world wide. If my own child were to not be vaccinated, he would not die. He's not being exposed to the diseases thanks to all the non-autistic kids around him that are immune.

      The burden is on you.

      Yes, all sorts of burdens are on me due to this situation, and this one is really, really minor. I'm okay with that. Why aren't you?

    47. Re:Interesting by Simetrical · · Score: 1

      This is actually one of the examples from TFA. The contention is that the statistics show that a majority of the certificate errors that users run across are false positives

      You're grossly understating their conclusion (emphasis added):

      Ironically, one place a user will almost certainly never see a certificate error is on a phishing or malware hosting site. That is, using certificates is almost unknown among the reported phishing sites in PhishTank [7]. The rare cases that employ certificates use valid ones. The same is true of sites that host malicious content. Attackers wisely calculate that it is far better to go without a certificate than risk the warning. In fact, as far as we can determine, there is no evidence of a single user being saved from harm by a certificate error, anywhere, ever.

      Repeated for people who skimmed the quote: "In fact, as far as we can determine, there is no evidence of a single user being saved from harm by a certificate error, anywhere, ever."

      --
      MediaWiki developer, Total War Center sysadmin
    48. Re:Interesting by ploxiln · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty much the same thing and do pretty much the same thing.

      But I have to disagree about updates, I think you should generally apply them ASAP, otherwise it becomes too easy / likely that some service (most of which I disable, but anyway) or tool enables your box to be remotely and automatically compromised, without you manually running anything.

      So, the above, but with updates, and your chances of having your system or accounts compromised is more than close enough to zero. In my opinion and experience.

  5. It's a fundamental human value calculation: by idontgno · · Score: 4, Insightful

    prevention is more expensive than repair/recovery/treatment

    How? Any prevention effort requires some kind of cost, very often a continual and on-going cost.

    Whereas the cost of recovery is only necessary once the negative effect occurs. And since it only happens to other people, that means that the cost of not preventing is 0. Clear win.

    Which explains a lot of epidemiology (low vaccination rates, high-risk behaviors spreading unstoppable diseases, etc.); economics (victims of fraud, high-risk investors, etc.); software development practices ("Release NOW" rather than quality).

    Unless you can prove that the bad thing WILL happen without prevention, people will skate on luck and denial and write off the risk against the guaranteed cost of preventative measures.

    Or, as others in this thread have put it, people are idiots.

    --
    Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
    1. Re:It's a fundamental human value calculation: by bnenning · · Score: 1

      prevention is more expensive than repair/recovery/treatment

      The thing is, that's often true. We shouldn't have a Bear Patrol, even if there really are occasional bear incursions.

      --
      How to solve most of our problems: 1.Lots of nuclear plants. 2.Cure aging.
    2. Re:It's a fundamental human value calculation: by RobinEggs · · Score: 2, Insightful

      people will skate on luck and denial and write off the risk against the guaranteed cost of preventative measures.

      I'm pretty sure TFA's entire point is that sometimes the guaranteed cost of preventative measures does exceed the statistical risk times the economic risk of actual damage. Skating by on luck totally works if luck, even including the cost of failures at or somewhat above statistical norms, costs less over the long run than the preventative measure.

      I actually have a car analogy here: I don't insure my vehicle for theft or comprehensive damage, because it would cost $400 a year with a $500 deductible on a vehicle only worth $2000. I'm refusing the preventative measure, but only because the likely cost of relying on the preventative measure far exceeds the cost of just buying another car, provided my car gets stolen or totaled less than every two years.

      Information security, like insurance, becomes a transaction on many levels, and many products or preventions in both arenas aren't really worth the cost.

    3. Re:It's a fundamental human value calculation: by Hatta · · Score: 1

      And since it only happens to other people

      That right there is the fundamental problem. What is it that keeps people from recognizing that other people are just like them? If it happens to other people it can happen to you too.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    4. Re:It's a fundamental human value calculation: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem as I see it is not that people are idiots, it's that the IT "Professionals" are idiots.

      You complain that people do not understand the cost of prevention vs cost of recovery argument, yet you make no attempt to quantify any of these these costs, leaving the user to think that you are simply trying to sell them snake oil just like any insurance salesman.

      And after all, by selling security you really are just selling insurance, and if you can't quantify the cost of recovery and the probability of occurrence, how can you possibly expect a user to make a value decision?

      As an engineering manager I deal with this shit every day; engineers telling me "we should do it this way because it will be cheaper in the long run". My response is always the same: "How much cheaper?" and this question is usually met with a blank stare, and when I sit and work through the analysis with then the proposal usually turns out to be based on an opinion and with no underlying basis. In short there is no attempt to understand the cost of "do" vs the cost of "do not".

      So why not try this approach with your customers/stakeholders: "last year, one in x businesses your size without security had a threat realised which cost them on average $Y (therefore cost to do nothing is y/x). However 1 in j businesses your size with security had a threat realised which cost them $k (therefore cost to do is k/j + security product cost). As you can see, cost to "do" is way cheaper than cost to "do not" and you will repay your additional outlay in m years"

      This is called analysis, and it is something that you "intelligent" people should be doing more of, instead of al the time you seem to spend stroking yourselves thinking how the rest of the world are idiots.

    5. Re:It's a fundamental human value calculation: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Since we're venting over idiots in corporate culture, I'd like to add my own piece:

      "This is called analysis, and it is something that you "intelligent" people should be doing more of, . . ."

      No, it's something called paper pushing. It keeps the creative people busy while the morons run the show.

      So, while the quick 100 line program someone like me could write in a couple of weeks in my spare time in order to save 1 hour per work week per per person in my department. Let's see, I have to come up with an official proposal in order to get my supervisors approval. If he agrees, I we then approach his supervisor. We then schedule a meeting with all the departments that might somehow be affected by this. I then research the standards and policy of the organization and align the idea to it. Then, an official proposal has to be researched and compiled. An independent consultant has to be contracted to do a cost-benefit analysis which, awkwardly enough, requires doing a cost-benefit analysis to justify. Assuming it passes, it then has to be approved by the project approval department, the heads of IT, information security, and the office of the CTO. If it is approved, it will then be coded, documented, and re-documented. And, for good measure the people that order the documentation will continually ask for it again-and-again and never read any of it. Oh, and at this point it may even be taken from me and given to someone or even a team with no interest in nor motivation to actually complete it, much less a clue of what it is actually supposed to do outside of the documentation that will not be read. Once (if) the coding is finished, it then needs to be submitted for large scale alpha & beta testing, information security auditing, signed software packaging, including documentation of the entire install, given final approval, and added to the global software deployment system.

      So, assuming this utility might be useful to a dozen people total, saving them an average of 1 hour per week per user. Lets say this takes 10 hours total to code and 10 hours to debug, 10 hours cleaning up the documentation and formatting so someone can come after me an understand it, and two hours to manually deploy it. That's an ROI of about 3 weeks. Ongoing support for the small group may take up to 2 hours a year, mostly re-installs and the occasional bug-fix.

      Now, lets add the thousands in consulting fees, a few thousand man-hours in labor, and continuing, ongoing external support for nosy supervisors that want to know where your documentation is at for the code, licensing, budgeting, justification, etc. just like last month. And, well, you end up with a ROI of somewhere over 5 years, assuming minimal support costs. At, which point, the software will likely obsolete. So, what's the point?

    6. Re:It's a fundamental human value calculation: by Cabriel · · Score: 1

      Or, as others in this thread have put it, people are idiots.

      Or, perhaps, smarter than you give them credit for and you're using an unfortunately vocal minority to judge the whole. I'm not saying it's a small minority, but most people I know have no problems with viruses/botnets/rootkits nor identity theft.

    7. Re:It's a fundamental human value calculation: by Oligonicella · · Score: 1

      "... the quick 100 line program someone like me could write in a couple of weeks ..."

      Contradictory phrase. But, after wading through the FUD - no, that was too generous, bullshit - I presume your solution is a business should just "trust you". I worked corporate all my life, it doesn't operate the way you describe.

  6. Bad summary by guspasho · · Score: 1

    Of course it's economics. That's what every cost/benefit analysis is. Economics is just another word for the other "researcher's ideas", not any kind of challenge or refutation of them.

    Are there no remarkable findings in the linked article worth reporting? Sure sounds like it to me.

  7. This is not a "new" interpretation by frinkster · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I can still remember the Computer Security professor telling the class on the very first day that computer security is a matter of economics. How much does it cost to implement? How much do you stand to lose if your security is broken and your "stuff" stolen? At some point, you reach a point of diminishing returns and it is wasteful to spend more on security.

    And in this context, time, effort, and inconvenience all have a significant cost that must be counted.

    The average idiot computer user is not always as dumb as you think they are.

    1. Re:This is not a "new" interpretation by luckyXIII · · Score: 0, Troll

      Not always. Sometimes they're dumber than you think they are.

      --
      Some people have it coming - I'm just the delivery system.
    2. Re:This is not a "new" interpretation by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 4, Insightful

      There are complications, though. Humans are, by the standards of mostly bipedal hunter/gatherer savannah dwelling apes, actually pretty decent at playing "rational actor"; but that isn't the same as being one. Even simple things like the fact that "90% chance of success" can elicit a different emotional response than "10% chance of failure" come down to limited rationality, and the picture isn't all that much prettier elsewhere.

      One big one, particularly for home users, is inaccurate discounting of costs that are either in the future, uncertain, or both. An $80 external HDD can substantially reduce your risk of losing files to disk failure. A shockingly small number of people, even people with actual money, who have data that are valuable or at least sentimental. The risks just aren't in their face; but the price tag is, so they don't do it.

      The other thing, again most likely an artefact of inherited historical limitations to human cognition, is the difficulty that people have understanding the implications of automation for their likelyhood of being attacked. To the degree that joe user has a threat model at all, it tends to be the classic man-is-a-social-animal naive theory that a person is attacking, or might be attacking him. He then shrugs, and says "I couldn't possibly be worth the effort." and does nothing. If cracking PCs was something done one-by-one, with manual labor, furiously typing to guess the passwords and break through the code walls just like in the movies, he'd be completely correct. However, since the vast majority of online attacks are largely automated, the naive threat model is bunk(for physical attacks, the naive model is probably mostly correct. Planting trojans on unattended laptops in public is almost as risky, and far less lucrative, than simply stealing them. Jealous spouses, asshole roomates, fucked-up middle school social dynamics and the like, though, provide ample motive for the sorts of attacks performed with physical access on home machines).

    3. Re:This is not a "new" interpretation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      At some point, you reach a point of diminishing returns and it is wasteful to spend more on security

      And by "spend more", you mean install fewer screensavers. 99% of the time, security is something that you go to extra trouble to take away from a system, it's not something you spend money to add.

    4. Re:This is not a "new" interpretation by CorporateSuit · · Score: 1

      Humans are, by the standards of mostly bipedal hunter/gatherer savannah dwelling apes

      I think you should speak for yourself!

      --
      I am the richest astronaut ever to win the superbowl.
    5. Re:This is not a "new" interpretation by nine-times · · Score: 1

      Well people also misunderstand the whole idea of security; the point isn't really to make unauthorized access impossible. The point is to make it difficult, annoying, problematic, likely that you'll get caught trying to gain access-- in other words, to make attaining unauthorized access "not worth it" to prospective attackers.

      So first you want to know who the prospective attackers are, what their skill set is, and how motivated they'll be to gain access. If your possible attackers are very skilled and very motivated, then you need to making gaining unauthorized access harder, increase the chances that anyone who tries will be caught. If your likely attackers are unmotivated amateurs, then you reach the level of diminishing returns much more quickly.

      But I guess that part of the point here might be, when your IT guy tells a user to tighten security and the user doesn't follow instructions, how stupid is the user? the claim seems to be, "He's not stupid. It's just that the IT guy has motivation to increase security and the user doesn't." Fair enough.

      On the other hand, even if users are making rational decisions, I'm not sure they're making them for rational reasons. You could convince me that it's often in a user's best interest to defy their company's IT guy, but you won't convince me that users never do these things simply out of defiance and even spite.

    6. Re:This is not a "new" interpretation by sootman · · Score: 1

      > ... computer security is a matter of economics. How much
      > does it cost to implement? How much do you stand to lose
      > if your security is broken and your "stuff" stolen?

      Old saying: "You don't put a $500 diamond in a $5,000 safe."

      --
      Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
    7. Re:This is not a "new" interpretation by taoye · · Score: 1

      Hah... in that case I'd just steal the safe!

    8. Re:This is not a "new" interpretation by syousef · · Score: 1

      One big one, particularly for home users, is inaccurate discounting of costs that are either in the future, uncertain, or both. An $80 external HDD can substantially reduce your risk of losing files to disk failure. A shockingly small number of people, even people with actual money, who have data that are valuable or at least sentimental. The risks just aren't in their face; but the price tag is, so they don't do it.

      Bad example. The main reason people don't sync their data is that it's not trivial. Finding software that will do it well is a pain. Dealing with problems properly means keeping checksums on the files. Meanwhile software alters the working copy of your data (eg. music library updated from the net or photos where metadata is added). Keeping track of which copy is good is non-trivial. Doing it properly means a 3rd off site copy is a good idea.

      I should know - I have over 250,000 photos in my library over around 10 years and I haven't lost one that made it to the computer yet.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    9. Re:This is not a "new" interpretation by arose · · Score: 1

      Just because doing it 'perfectly' is hard, is no excuse not to do it 'well'. I've had catastrophic data failure wiping 2 years of pictures, a regular backup to DVD would have saved 23 months back then.

      --
      Analogies don't equal equalities, they are merely somewhat analogous.
    10. Re:This is not a "new" interpretation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The main reason people don't sync their data is that it's not trivial. Finding software that will do it well is a pain. Dealing with problems properly means keeping checksums on the files.

      The free software on the WD externals is a single-button to cloning. Yep, totally painful to find that software which asks to autorun whenever you plug in the drive.

  8. Users just don't care, because it dosn't cost them by maillemaker · · Score: 4, Insightful

    As I said before, most users don't care because there are usually no consequences to ignoring security directives.

    Most users figure that security is the corporation's problem. They just figure that whatever they do will be protected "by the firewall" and they go on with life. It's not their problem if things go wrong.

    --
    A work that expires before its copyright never enters the public domain and thus enjoys eternal copyright protection.
  9. No Economic Incentive? by jjoelc · · Score: 5, Insightful

    How about this one... At least in businesses...

    Users in a business generally have very little if any incentive to follow any security policy that does not happen automatically, without any intervention on their part.

    It is not their data, not their computer, and generally not their problem. If something goes wrong... they might have to move to another desk for a little while, while "the computer guy" "fixes" everything for them. They might even get a slap on the wrist for not following policy... But generally, the "users" have no reason to interrupt their busy day with any security policy that interrupts their busy schedule (of facebook and slashdot browsing). When malware hits, it is inevitably not their fault, but rather the fault of those same "computer guys" who have to go in and fix it.

    Ain't reality a bitch?

    1. Re:No Economic Incentive? by ShakaUVM · · Score: 1

      >>Users in a business generally have very little if any incentive to follow any security policy that does not happen automatically, without any intervention on their part.

      Depending on the policy, it might even be the reverse. At SAIC, a friend of mine wanted to install vim, because, well, that's what he used to write code, and he was a lot more productive with it. But SAIC doesn't allow users to install software, and the process of getting "a new app approved" was, to say the least, Byzantine. So he tried a couple different things:
      1) He disabled their security system. In less than 10 minutes, a sysadmin came down to bitch at him not to do that. And wouldn't help with the vim thing.
      2) I think he installed a debugger next or something, to the same effect.
      3) He finally just ended up sshing out to his home linux box, copying all of his (classified) source files to his home machine so he could edit them in vim, and then would copy them back. This worked. Probably would have gotten him fired if caught, but fuck it, he was a low paid intern and just didn't care that much.

      So the upshot was that the company's strict security policy resulted in all their classified source code being put onto what was a lot less secure box.

    2. Re:No Economic Incentive? by Mr.+Noob · · Score: 1

      So the upshot was that the company's strict security policy resulted in all their classified source code being put onto what was a lot less secure box.

      No, the user deciding that he was too important to follow the rules resulted in all their classified source code being put onto what was a lot less secure box. Maybe the app process approval was Byzantine, but if you don't like the rules you find another internship.

      Assuming we are talking about the defense contractor SAIC it is possible that the application approval process was insisted upon by the government. This may not have been the company's policy per se.

      As many posters have mentioned security is a matter of economics, i.e., risk/benefit ratios. Releasing of classified materials can have great risks. It is not surprising that stricter security measures are insisted upon.

    3. Re:No Economic Incentive? by ShakaUVM · · Score: 1

      No, the user deciding that he was too important to follow the rules resulted in all their classified source code being put onto what was a lot less secure box. Maybe the app process approval was Byzantine, but if you don't like the rules you find another internship.

      I'm not arguing what he did was right, or even ethical.

      What I'm saying is that overly strict security policies often have paradoxical effects which lower their security. Have a 60 digit password? Someone is writing that shit down next to their monitor, company policy to the contrary notwithstanding.

    4. Re:No Economic Incentive? by NeoSkandranon · · Score: 1

      Probably would have gotten him fired if caught, but fuck it

      If the data in question was really classified, I think the word you're after is "arrested"

      --
      If you can't see the value in jet powered ants you should turn in your nerd card. - Dunbal (464142)
    5. Re:No Economic Incentive? by ShakaUVM · · Score: 1

      >>If the data in question was really classified, I think the word you're after is "arrested"

      There's different levels of classified data. I think this was just fired-level stuff. All the crazy stuff in his building took place behind a sealed and guarded portal-type thing at the end of the hallway. I saw it, looked like something out of a prison.

      He was a Palestinian college student intern... don't think they were giving him nuclear weapon designs to work on.

  10. Some security measures don't seem practical. by Richard+Steiner · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I have to remember something like 70 passwords as a multiplatform software developer, and some of those hosts have passwords which expire every 30 days, can't repeat for at least a dozen iterations, and must contain at least one numeric, at least one upper-case and one lower-case alpha, and at least one non-alphanumeric symbol.

    I understand the reasoning, and if it was only a handful of boxes .. or rarely used boxes ... I would understand, but I'm logging into 25 or 30 of these machines or applications on a daily basis.

    I can use a password manager like Keepass, and it's okay, but I can see how some folks would resort to other means, try to use password patterns, etc.

    --
    Mainframe/UNIX Bit Twiddler and long time Windows/Linux Hobbyist.
    The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.
    1. Re:Some security measures don't seem practical. by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

      Just do what I do... write all the passwords down on a post-it note, and stick it on your monitor! ;-)

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    2. Re:Some security measures don't seem practical. by Dadoo · · Score: 3, Interesting

      some of those hosts have passwords which expire every 30 days

      This is slightly off-topic, but I have to question how useful it is to require people to change their passwords often. Chances are, when someone breaks into your computer, they're going to leave a back door, so they can get in, regardless of the actual password. Anyone have any thoughts on that?

      --
      Sit, Ubuntu, sit. Good dog.
    3. Re:Some security measures don't seem practical. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, that's entirely on topic. How'd you do that without reading the article?

    4. Re:Some security measures don't seem practical. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And you're forced to use passwords to log in? I used to have a painful time too, but then I set up ssh certificate authentication and ssh-agent, and now I can log into all my remote hosts with just one passphrase a day.

    5. Re:Some security measures don't seem practical. by Mr+Thinly+Sliced · · Score: 1

      but I have to question how useful it is to require people to change their passwords often.

      I think the idea is keep the attack window for brute forcing a password as slim as possible.

      Assuming they can only make so many attempts with a specified time window - changing the password after 30 days or less means any attacker only has that window in which to work their way through their dictionary and character sequences. After that time they've got to start again.

      In practice of course they might not know when that 30 day window starts or ends - which reduces the window even further.

      Basically - not changing the password at all means I can spend 6 months brute forcing a password - probably at a rate that you might not see the network activity (presumably login failures would get noticed - but that depends on if the service in question correctly logs the failures).

    6. Re:Some security measures don't seem practical. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's intended to prevent account cracking rather than as a measure to limit breaches that already happened.

      The article notes that forced password changes are of dubious benefit for systems that use an account lockout mechanism. It is somewhat useful when it comes to offline cracking, as by the time the offline password is cracked it has often already been changed on the live system.

    7. Re:Some security measures don't seem practical. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If there's a lockout-after-N-attempts function, frequent password rotation is largely redundant; the threat being brute-force attacks, either method will reduce the likelihood of that attack succeeding. In addition, frequent rotation is more likely to make people use minimally-qualifying passwords (Rutab3ga, Carr0t, C3lery) and/or write down passwords on post-its under their keyboards. Lockout functions generally come with logging, and long-term patterns of repeated lockouts (or even almost-lockouts) can be investigated: is it just someone who's a horrid typist getting stuck, or is someone trying to run a quiet, long-term brute-force attack?

      I worked in a school district some years ago that was having a problem with break-in vandalism. Turned out, someone had nicked a key at some point and was just going in through a service door in the evening to make a damn mess. They changed the locks and reminded teachers to lock their classroom doors, but within a year, the master keys got stolen again. It took them changing the locks three times before they finally installed a camera system (this was the late 80's, so cc cameras weren't standard institutional equipment). Meanwhile, everyone was drowning in outdated keys, and with each additional cycle, the staff's willingness to duplicate and share keys against district policy increased. Hiring a night guard would have worked as well as the cameras, but the thing that was needed was human attention -- someone to notice and identify offenders. Locks just weren't going to stop creative malevolence indefinitely, and the same applies to network security. The cameras mostly didn't get checked -- the tapes were usually overwritten monthly without having been played back, but the night break-ins stopped.

    8. Re:Some security measures don't seem practical. by rdnetto · · Score: 1

      some of those hosts have passwords which expire every 30 days

      This is slightly off-topic, but I have to question how useful it is to require people to change their passwords often. Chances are, when someone breaks into your computer, they're going to leave a back door, so they can get in, regardless of the actual password. Anyone have any thoughts on that?

      Is there even a need to leave a back door? After all, they can already break in...

      --
      Most human behaviour can be explained in terms of identity.
    9. Re:Some security measures don't seem practical. by house5150 · · Score: 1

      well i can tell you the reason i do it, is because users share passwords, well i was vacation so i gave my my password to my assistant to do payroll... i trust them forever with my password even if they get fired or angry with me....

    10. Re:Some security measures don't seem practical. by precariousgray · · Score: 1

      some of those hosts have passwords which expire every 30 days

      This is slightly off-topic, but I have to question how useful it is to require people to change their passwords often. Chances are, when someone breaks into your computer, they're going to leave a back door, so they can get in, regardless of the actual password. Anyone have any thoughts on that?

      I'd like to take this one step further: is there anyone who actually creates a new password when they have to change theirs? Mine are always another password I've used in the past, or a variation on the one I'm currently using.

      I made a conscious effort several years ago to create a few very strong passwords and memorize them. I see no reason why I should have to change them.

      --
      not much, just being forced to manually insert line breaks into my comment
    11. Re:Some security measures don't seem practical. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      some of those hosts have passwords which expire every 30 days

      This is slightly off-topic, but I have to question how useful it is to require people to change their passwords often. Chances are, when someone breaks into your computer, they're going to leave a back door, so they can get in, regardless of the actual password. Anyone have any thoughts on that?

      Wow, what a +4 Interesting post, thanks for raising that question, let me quote the fucking article for you

      The typical user does not always see benefit from heeding security advice. I once again agree. Try to explain to someone who had a password stolen by a key logger, why a strong password is important.

      And then they go on to talk about passwords at some length....

      Gibson simply asked, how often do you require passwords to be changed? I asked several system administrators what time frame they used, most responded once a month. Using Herley’s logic, that means an attacker potentially has a whole month to use the password.

      So, is the cost of having users struggle with new password every month beneficial? Before you answer, you may also want to think about bad practices users implement because of the frequent-change policy:

              * By the time a user is comfortable with a password, it’s time to change. So, users opt to write passwords down. That’s another whole debate; ask Bruce Schneier.

              * Users know how many passwords the system remembers and cycle through that amount, which allows them to keep using the same one.

      Is anything truly gained by having passwords changed often? The only benefit I see is if the attacker does not use the password within the password-refresh time limit. What’s your opinion? Is changing passwords monthly, a benefit or a cost?

      Dr. Herley does an in-depth cost-benefit analysis in three specific areas, password rules, phishing URLs, and SSL certificate errors. I would like to spend some time with each.

      Password rules

      Password rules place the entire burden on the user. So, they understand the cost from having to abide by the following rules:

              * Length
              * Composition (e.g. digits, special characters)
              * Non-dictionary words (in any language).
              * Don’t write it down
              * Don’t share it with anyone
              * Change it often
              * Don’t re-use passwords across sites

      The report proceeds to explain how each rule is not really helpful. For example, the first three rules are not important, as most applications and Web sites have a lock out rule that restricts access after so many tries. I already touched on why “Change it often” is not considered helpful.

      All said and done, users know that strictly observing the above rules is no guarantee of being safe from exploits. That makes it difficult for them to justify the additional effort and associated cost.

      Phishing URLs

      Trying to explain URL spoofing to users is complicated. Besides, by the time you get through half of all possible iterations, most users are not listening. For example, the following slide (courtesy of Cormac Herley) lists some spoofed URLs for PayPal:

      To reduce cost to users, Herley wants to turn this around. He explains that users need to know when the URL is good, not bad:

      “The main difficulty in teaching users to read URLs is that in certain cases this allows users to know when something is bad, but it never gives a guarantee that something is good. Thus the advice cannot be exhaustive and is full of exceptions.”

    12. Re:Some security measures don't seem practical. by psydeshow · · Score: 1

      Of course, as others have pointed out, TFA is wrong on the reason why changing passwords is important.

      So it was still a good question.

      What's especially interesting is that the disconnect between the policy (change passwords every 90 days) and the reasoning behind it (so that brute force attacks can't be completed within the password validity window) exists in the author's mind as well.

    13. Re:Some security measures don't seem practical. by ImprovOmega · · Score: 1

      Theoretically, that backdoor could be patched in the next round of Windows Updates.

    14. Re:Some security measures don't seem practical. by echnaton192 · · Score: 1

      This entirely depends on two things:
      1) Password length. Using upper/lower capitals, Symbols and numbers, > 20 Characters are considered sufficient.
      2) Possible retries. If the Password is unusable after 5 retries, any hacking would get noticed, at least by the user.

      And as long as a company doesn't imply a strict single sign on policy, it is impossible to keep track of all the passwords, except you keep them simple.

      That is what happened here:

      I use complex passwords on my whole system encryption and my server, but rediculously simply passwords at wok, whereas I started with complex ones. Reasons:

      Every system expires the password on another day
      They have at least 10 (!) systems requiring a password

      I work there for 10 years and I follow the password rules to the letter. But the result is a "complex" password that really isn't.

      And again: If the password is suspended after 5 retries, the "hacking" of a password would still be too much a hassle, even with only 5 characters and no expiring time. Social engineering would be more efficient.

      And if you use > 20 digit, strong passwords on the whole system, that expire once a year (!) and that are suspended after 50 retries, this would be more than sufficient. Thinking of n strong passwords every 60 days is impossible (at least it is for me).

      The situation is ridiculous: I use stronger passwords at home than I do in the office (I follow the rules, but the password is really easy, despite the fact the systems thinks it's "complex").

  11. the real reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    People reject security advice because everybody knows at least one poor sucker that is tech-savvy and can fix there FUBAR system. That person may do it grudgingly, may b*tch the entire time, but they'll still do it. Not only that, they'll do it for free. Sound familiar?

    1. Re:the real reason by jemtallon · · Score: 1

      Agreed. We should all collectively agree to start claiming we need to be naked while repairing computers to avoid static build-up. That's why it really should go to a shop: they have special rooms for that.

    2. Re:the real reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is sad because it's true. After fixing My Dad's computer for the second time this year, I gave the same angry lecture I did last time on internet security. His reply was "Fuck you, I will do what I want and you will fix it next time as well!"

      Incidentally, every time he screws up his computer, I always get the blame. Even though I don't even live in the same town, It always seems to be my fault. I say to stop downloading every random screensaver and crappy program that he comes across and to stop opening and clicking the links on every single email he gets (He seems to not comprehend what a Junk Mail folder if for). He just tells me that I should have "fixed it right to begin with". Such gratitude!

  12. This exists in every facet of life by Meshach · · Score: 1

    The recent story from Canada about the group of snow mobile riders who triggered an avalanche that killed a few of them. The risk was obvious. Environment Canada had issued an avalanche risk warning. But the guys went out anyways.

    Some people will always not do the right thing. No matter how obvious it may be.

    --
    "Maybe this world is another planet's hell"
    Aldous Huxley
  13. Some security advice is not rational by Chemisor · · Score: 4, Insightful

    People giving security advice often have no idea what the threat model is. For example, the typical home user's computer has no chance of being physically attacked. Nobody breaks into people's houses to install hardware keyloggers to steal their online banking passwords. And yet, some banks put up "security measures" like on-screen keyboards you have to type on with a mouse just to avoid keyloggers. Likewise, there's no real security reason to password protect your account on your home computer that nobody but you uses, and no security reason to not use autologin.

    Seriously, there is only one kind of threat the home user faces, and that's software attacks, none of which are aimed specifically at him, and all of which are acquired either through his web browser or through infected executables given to him by his friends. If he runs NoScript, disables javascript in email, and gets executables only from reputable sources, there is simply no way he can get infected. If he's on Linux, he's safer than he's ever going to be already.

    1. Re:Some security advice is not rational by molo · · Score: 3, Informative

      Nobody breaks into people's houses to install hardware keyloggers to steal their online banking passwords. And yet, some banks put up "security measures" like on-screen keyboards you have to type on with a mouse just to avoid keyloggers.

      Right. Good thing there's no such thing as a software keylogger.

      -molo

      --
      Using your sig line to advertise for friends is lame.
    2. Re:Some security advice is not rational by IamTheRealMike · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Onscreen keyboards are good for avoiding generic keylogging viruses. Keylogging and looking for passwords isn't too hard (especially if you can look for email address + tab + word with no spaces in + enter) but defeating an onscreen keyboard means either writing a program to search specifically for that implementation or recording/compressing/uploading/watching full videos of all screen activity which is way too heavy.

      Of course two-factor transaction signing is even better ....

    3. Re:Some security advice is not rational by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For "extra security", my bank required the use of one of these pop-up on-screen keyboards, but it only ran on Internet Explorer, which seemed a much greater security threat.

    4. Re:Some security advice is not rational by Sancho · · Score: 1

      For example, the typical home user's computer has no chance of being physically attacked.

      Those on-screen keyboards were there to thwart software key loggers. And then they were defeated by malware taking screenshots every second (or more frequently) to get the password that way.

      Likewise, there's no real security reason to password protect your account on your home computer that nobody but you uses, and no security reason to not use autologin.

      That's not entirely true, either. Never have houseguests? I do frequently, and I may not want them snooping around on my computer (this is the digital equivalent of a guest rooting through your medicine cabinet.) What if the computer is stolen? Maybe you'll be glad that you encrypted the disk, then.

      It's all about trade-offs. If the security is highly transparent (how long does it take to log in?) then why not do it?

    5. Re:Some security advice is not rational by snowgirl · · Score: 1

      Nobody breaks into people's houses to install hardware keyloggers to steal their online banking passwords. And yet, some banks put up "security measures" like on-screen keyboards you have to type on with a mouse just to avoid keyloggers.

      Except the investigating police force, which is trying to catch the person who stole tons of money. If the bank loses that money because it was made illegally by another person, they have to foot the costs of the investments that they had made with that money.

      It's like the Safe Deposit box security in Swiss banks... of course they don't want to lose all that gold and money that the Nazis stole.

      --
      WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
    6. Re:Some security advice is not rational by the_one(2) · · Score: 1

      How would an on-screen keyboard help against that exactly?

    7. Re:Some security advice is not rational by Raul+Acevedo · · Score: 1

      So, your first paragraph contradicts the second paragraph. If you are a bank, are you going to guarantee that your users run Linux, runs NoScript, disables JavaScript in email, and gets executables only from reliable sources? I think not. Hence, an on-screen keyboard is not unreasonable, because the bank doesn't control the user's computer or the user's behavior. For all they know, the user clicks on spam links all the time, which then installs a key logger.

      No security reason to require a password for login to your home computer? You fully trust every single person that ever walks into your home, including all your romantic relationships, strangers coming over for a house party, etc? Even if it's true for you, you think everyone can trust every spouse or lover, or any person that walks into their home?

      --
      In a real emergency, we would have all fled in terror, and you would not have been notified.
    8. Re:Some security advice is not rational by syousef · · Score: 1

      Seriously, there is only one kind of threat the home user faces, and that's software attacks, none of which are aimed specifically at him, and all of which are acquired either through his web browser or through infected executables given to him by his friends. If he runs NoScript, disables javascript in email, and gets executables only from reputable sources, there is simply no way he can get infected.

      If your web browser has an exploit that hasn't been patched, it may not require Javascript. The measures you mention are good but they are not a guarantee.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    9. Re:Some security advice is not rational by Dhalka226 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If somebody wrote a Bank X Keylogger, it wouldn't. They could just watch for you to go to your bank, start tracking mouse movements and clicks, tie it to a screen resolution and reconstruct what you did.

      But that almost never happens. A general-purpose keylogger sitting in the background hoping for something juicy isn't going to be tracking mouse movements. For one, it's a hell of a lot of data generated very quickly and you don't know when to start or stop. Two, since you don't know what the user is looking at you couldn't reconstruct it. On the flip side, seeing "http://wellsfargo.com[enter]bob[tab]dole[enter]" pretty much gives you all the information you need.

      Most keyloggers out there simply aren't targeted, and without some degree of targeting an on-screen keyboard could help. If they know what they're looking for, you're still boned.

    10. Re:Some security advice is not rational by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're an idiot. Ever hear of keylogging software? Also, if you think password protecting an admin account is a waste of time, then you should never be allowed near a computer again.

    11. Re:Some security advice is not rational by gr8dude · · Score: 1

      It wouldn't: http://www.lazybit.com/index.php/2007/03/01/keylogger_virtual_keyboard_vmware?blog=2

      On Windows, an on-screen keyboard that is designed to be a replacement for a typical keyboard must use WM_KEYDOWN and WM_KEYUP messages - otherwise it won't be able to interact with some programs. This is why a software keylogger will "see" these keystrokes anyway.

      But you can try a couple of tricks: http://www.lazybit.com/index.php/2007/03/01/free_keylogger_protection?blog=2

  14. Microsoft Researcher using TeX. by Jason+Earl · · Score: 4, Interesting

    They aren't kidding when they say that Microsoft Research is autonomous. I would have assumed that Microsoft would at least make its researchers use MS Word.

    1. Re:Microsoft Researcher using TeX. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Most people would use MS Word even if they had the choice to use TeX.

    2. Re:Microsoft Researcher using TeX. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lots of MS research staff are hired from academia; those eggheads love them some TeX (in my experience).

    3. Re:Microsoft Researcher using TeX. by bk2204 · · Score: 1

      It looks like this article was published in a journal of some sort. It's my understanding that many math and CS journals prefer TeX. There's no reason to redo an article just to post it online.

    4. Re:Microsoft Researcher using TeX. by Jer · · Score: 2, Informative

      That's because TeX is awesome.[*]

      [*]If you're writing a conference paper or a journal article or a thesis. For other uses, YMMV.

    5. Re:Microsoft Researcher using TeX. by Jason+Earl · · Score: 1

      Exactly. Heck, I *like* TeX and I still would at least consider using MS Word if a) I worked for Microsoft and B) I was writing a twelve page paper with very few equations.

      I wouldn't use Word if I could get away with using TeX, but I would consider it.

      I am just saying that this particular paper says good things about MS Research.

    6. Re:Microsoft Researcher using TeX. by miffo.swe · · Score: 1

      MS Research is a good place. Sadly nobody at Microsoft ever listen to them or take their advice. The beancounters and salespeople run the show from top to bottom and no amount of research will change that.

      --
      HTTP/1.1 400
    7. Re:Microsoft Researcher using TeX. by westlake · · Score: 1

      They aren't kidding when they say that Microsoft Research is autonomous. I would have assumed that Microsoft would at least make its researchers use MS Word.

      or perhaps you hand off your research papers to your in-house editors, layout and design teams before publication

    8. Re:Microsoft Researcher using TeX. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why?

      I thought Microsoft Office products were more likely aimed at the average computer user than a Computer Scientist, let alone a researcher. There are tools which are targeted and suit the job much better than, for example, MS Word.

      This still doesn't mean that Office products are not useful (if not the most sophisticated) for the main target audience.

      (Universities tend to use MS tools (MS Office) or OS equivalent (Open Office) for normal course related activities, whereas scientific research papers - especially those which require more sophisticated formatting - are done via TeX).

      I know there have been a lot of Bad Stuff done by MS which you have witnessed, but the hatred shouldn't run so deep to make such Stupid assaults :)

  15. Simple (final) solution: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A simple solution: some enterprising grey-hats just need to put together a sufficiently malicious exploit. Maybe users would pay attention to security if they had to worry that the "M3ga K3wl Cod3c Pakzor" they just downloaded was going to email all their contacts, Facebook friends and LinkedIn contacts a link to nimp.org whilst deleting all their files and emptying their bank accounts.

    By the same token, the dick pill spam could be stopped overnight by a small group collecting "orders" and mailing out poison. After a dozen or so deaths, one would presume that *most* people would be concerned about buying drugs from spam.

    In both cases, anyone who *still* ignores common sense deserves what they get - thin the herd a little, ya know?

    1. Re:Simple (final) solution: by Quiet_Desperation · · Score: 1

      By the same token, the dick pill spam could be stopped overnight by a small group collecting "orders" and mailing out poison. After a dozen or so deaths, one would presume that *most* people would be concerned about buying drugs from spam.

      Welcome to Slashdot where the solution to lax user security is random terrorism and murder! Aren't they great, folks? Goodnight everyone! Drive safely!

    2. Re:Simple (final) solution: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Did you read the post you're quoting? Terrorism and murder are the solution to SPAM!

      Although, a good LARTing certainly provides a compelling reason for lusers to put up with the negative externalities mentioned in the paper. :)

  16. good advice versus bad advice; costs to others by bcrowell · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The paper is not entirely unreasonable. However, there are at least some holes in it.

    It lumps good and bad security advice together. The economic benefit of following bad security advice (e.g., buying antivirus software) is zero or negative, so of course anybody would be rational to ignore such advice. That doesn't mean it should be lumped together with *good* security advice. They're hypothesizing that people are acting like the idealized economic free agents beloved of economists: people with perfect information, acting rationally. Under this hypothesis, people would have perfect information about which security advice is good and which is bad.

    The article doesn't talk about costs to others. People who get their computers owned by a botnet aren't only suffering economic harm themselves, they're inflicting harm on other people. On p. 5 Herley talks about how Wells Fargo limits customers' liability to $50 if they're victims of fraud. That doesn't mean *nobody* pays the cost of the fraud. We all pay those costs, indirectly.

    Another problem is that in many cases Herley relies on back-of-the-envelope estimates of the damage caused by security failures. E.g., on p. 2 he estimates the economic costs of a particular exploit. But these estimates aren't based on any actual data. That particular calculation is also kind of stupid, because he says that a user shouldn't spend more than "0.98 seconds" (doesn't he understand significant figures?) protecting against a particular exploit. What his analysis ignores is that there may be hundreds of such exploits out there, and that anything you do that protects against one exploit (e.g., not using a dictionary word as your password) will also help to protect you against all the others. And forgive me if I'm a little skeptical of low-ball estimates originating from MS of the economic damage of computer security failures. That's like trusting GM to estimate the economic effects of global warming.

    1. Re:good advice versus bad advice; costs to others by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "because he says that a user shouldn't spend more than "0.98 seconds" (doesn't he understand significant figures?)"

      Ah hah, clearly you don't understand that 2 significant figures are obviously more accurate than 1!

      Writing this took me approximately 10.7741 seconds.

    2. Re:good advice versus bad advice; costs to others by isoloisti · · Score: 2, Interesting

      That doesn't mean *nobody* pays the cost of the fraud. We all pay those costs, indirectly. But isn't that the point? Isn't it rational of users to shirk individual effort that reduces collective harm? For sure, Wellsfargo passes the cost to its customers. But that happens whether an individual user makes security effort or not. So might as well not.

    3. Re:good advice versus bad advice; costs to others by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      I am reminded of a skit by the stand-up economist, Yoram Bauman.

      "If rational people think at the margin, then people arent rational. Nobody goes to the store and thinks I'm going to buy an orange. I'm going to buy another orange. I'm going to buy another orange. I'm going to buy another orange.... "

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    4. Re:good advice versus bad advice; costs to others by williamhb · · Score: 1

      The paper is not entirely unreasonable. However, there are at least some holes in it. It lumps good and bad security advice together. The economic benefit of following bad security advice (e.g., buying antivirus software) is zero or negative, so of course anybody would be rational to ignore such advice. That doesn't mean it should be lumped together with *good* security advice.

      I'm sorry but it does. It's the "market for lemons" effect. The user cannot tell good advice from bad until after they've invested attention and effort into it (thoroughly reading, understanding, and evaluating something is, economically, effort) -- so rationally when they first see it they have to treat it all as suspect advice.

    5. Re:good advice versus bad advice; costs to others by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The article doesn't talk about costs to others.

      To be fair, the paper is an analysis of user behaviour and not the merit of security measures themselves. What I've managed to glean through a casual interest in behavioural economics is that people are often selfish and usually short-sighted in their decisions - if I don't understand or don't care about a measure's impact on others then why bother following it?

  17. Simple Risk Matrix by stewbacca · · Score: 1

    What is the probability my password will be hacked (low/medium/high)

    What is the impact if my password is hacked (none/moderate/severe)

    If I have low probability of being compromised, and the outcome is moderate, than that is a low risk. If I have a high chance of being compromised and the impact is severe, that is a high risk.

    The problem with these sort of articles is not determining why people don't care about security, it's failing to take into account that a "low" risk rating on this matrix isn't worth the costs associated with protecting a system set up to prevent the "high" risk scenario I described.

  18. The Boss speaks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We know you work on the basis of economics Tom, so, because of this breech you've caused we'll be docking your pay for the next, ahhhh, 376,042 pay cycles. thanks, you may go.

  19. Want security? Buy a Mac by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1, Troll

    Want security? Buy a Mac.

    Want s/w that breaks? Buy Windows.

    Want to roll your own and get every ounce of power out - use a Linux distro.

    At one point I was the acting security officer for Pacific Region. If people can subvert security they will.

    Not much has changed in the security sphere for a long time, and difficult security just begs to be subverted.

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    1. Re:Want security? Buy a Mac by arndawg · · Score: 1

      Want security? Use linux or bsd.

      Want s/w that breaks? Fiddle with linux or bsd.

      Want to roll your own and get every ounce of power out - use a Linux distro or a bsd.

      Fixed. Mac for security? Really?

    2. Re:Want security? Buy a Mac by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 2, Funny

      A Mac is basically BSD.

      I stand by my original post.

      --
      -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    3. Re:Want security? Buy a Mac by arndawg · · Score: 1

      Sure. Windows is bsd as well, since it uses the same network stack. Do mac have PaX yet? Mac is SAFE. Not secure. There is a difference.

    4. Re:Want security? Buy a Mac by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

      oh come on they patched 16 holes today.

      --
      -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    5. Re:Want security? Buy a Mac by Dadoo · · Score: 1

      Mac for security? Really?

      I was going to ask the same thing. Wasn't there some hacking contest a while ago, where someone hacked into a Mac in something like 10 seconds?

      --
      Sit, Ubuntu, sit. Good dog.
    6. Re:Want security? Buy a Mac by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Windows hasn't use the BSD network stack since about the NT 4 era.

  20. And it's often NOT worth it. by gestalt_n_pepper · · Score: 1

    Am I going to spend a lot of time on a 7 year old's game PC protecting it from being added to the botnet army of darkness on its latest evil crusade for human souls? Frankly, why the hell would I care?

    --
    Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
    1. Re:And it's often NOT worth it. by Narcocide · · Score: 1

      Because once it has spread to one node on your home network the rest of your weak-ass windows boxes and all your credit card info soon will belong to said botnet army.

    2. Re:And it's often NOT worth it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How about YOUR 7 year old's on YOUR home network?

    3. Re:And it's often NOT worth it. by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      Because his compromised computer's bandwidth usage and infection compromises the security of the rest of the computers on the network as well as affecting their quality of service?

    4. Re:And it's often NOT worth it. by koiransuklaa · · Score: 1

      I would care because I'm not an asshole. Don't know about you.

  21. It's a matter of reputation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Among crackers, reputation is very important.

    These people spend their time and effort and money to crack the protection on an application/game/movie and get it out to the world. They don't do it for profit. They do it to become known as the person/group that did it first or best. They frequently sign their work, and will go to great lengths to maintain their reputation.

    A bad release, or one with a virus/trojan will quickly gather notice on torrent forums. It would be a one way ticket to expulsion from any release group. It can take years to become accepted into a major release group, its not something taken lightly.

    1. Re:It's a matter of reputation by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      Its a good thing that I cant rename my payload dropping trojan archive with the same name as one of those well respected crackers, or release groups.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    2. Re:It's a matter of reputation by KahabutDieDrake · · Score: 1

      There are more than a few internal checks you'd have to figure out. I know, you didn't know. It seems to me like no one does anymore. Release groups have been around a lot longer than the piracy bullshit going on now. They are more sophisticated than anyone seems to imagine. That isn't ascii art, it's an encoded hash. That signature is a carefully constructed binary puzzle. The rhythm and beat in that midi? Also an encoded message. You can rename your file anything you want. It's unlikely you can replicate even half of the internal checks, even if you are aware of them.

      Kids these days.

      These guys play with crypto for FUN. And it didn't occur to you that they might be including some in releases? Really? Are you conscious?

    3. Re:It's a matter of reputation by Fred_A · · Score: 1

      Its a good thing that I cant rename my payload dropping trojan archive with the same name as one of those well respected crackers, or release groups.

      Security by ASCII art, why didn't we think of that !

      --

      May contain traces of nut.
      Made from the freshest electrons.
    4. Re:It's a matter of reputation by b4dc0d3r · · Score: 1

      Even if what you say is true... I write a virus, copy an ASCII thing from some other warez release, and make it look legit. People see the torrent, download it, it looks legit because they don't know to check the hashes and all that. They execute my virus, which does not have any hash checks. The virus installs itself, then pops up a "This is not a valid Win32 Executable" message. User thinks oops, corrupted download, I'll just find it elsewhere. Even if they find the same release group, they are highly unlikely to compare my virus with the official cracked release and notice small differences like dates or different pr0pz or credits... and if they do they will take it as an update to an obviously flawed release. Great, this one works. Good job, another virus free warez release! Meanwhile I'm downloading all of their photos they took in a mirror flashing gang signs with a fake tan and pursing their lips. Good times.

      In other words, malware won't bother to check those hashes, and most users wouldn't even think about it, so it offers no protection.

  22. 6. Change often by hrimhari · · Score: 4, Interesting

    TFA:

    Rule 6 will help only if the attacker waits weeks before
    exploiting the password. So this amplies the burden
    for little gain. Only if it is changed between the time of
    the compromise and the time of the attempted exploit
    does Rule 6 help.

    IANASE, but last time I checked this rule meant to make it difficult for attackers to have time to brute-force-guessing the password and profit from it. It had nothing to do with the attacker discovering the password then waiting quietly until nobody's looking to profit from it.

    In theory, if you change your password often enough before the brute-force being complete, the attacker would have to start all over again.

    That said, it's an extremelly difficult rule to enforce/comply, unless you have a wonderful "I forgot my password" system.

    --
    http://dilbert.com/2010-12-13
    1. Re:6. Change often by Sancho · · Score: 1

      Changing your password mitigates a compromise in both of those ways, and one additional one: the one where the attacker doesn't want you to know that your password was compromised, so they don't change it. This could be important in the case where verification of your right to the account is possible (without e.g. security questions, but perhaps by showing up in person with an ID.) For example, gaining access to a user's e-mail account in order to spam can be useful, and the attacker might not change the password to try to avoid detection for as long as possible. Gaining access to a user's IMAP account could get them lots of really useful information and access to other resources (through password reset forms.)

      As you point out, the attacker could also get a copy of the password file, but take a long time in breaking it.

      Lastly, an attacker could get a large list of passwords but not use them all right away, preferring to cycle through accounts slowly in the hopes of avoiding detection of the mass breech. I've personally been involved with this sort of attack. Several of my users (in serial) started reporting strange things with their accounts. Each time, we reset the password, and the odd behavior went away (but then moved on to a new user.) It turned out that someone had scraped a bunch of passwords in cleartext and was using them one-by-one, moving on as each was reset.

    2. Re:6. Change often by Haeleth · · Score: 4, Insightful

      In theory, if you change your password often enough before the brute-force being complete, the attacker would have to start all over again.

      Yes -- in theory. But people are good at subverting policies like that.

      Suppose it takes about four months for an attacker to brute-force your password hash, and you change your password every month. If they get lucky today and discover that as of December your password was "foobar@Dec09", I think they might be able to make a plausible guess as to its current value.

    3. Re:6. Change often by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the section mentions that systems have lockout policies for repeated failures.

      the idea is that if your account will get locked for entering the wrong password, e.g. 5 times in a row, then you don't have to worry about someone brute forcing your password (or even intelligently using only dictionary words). as long as they can't guess it within the limit of the lockout policy, you're fine.

      consider the following algorithm for server authentication:

      0. if a client makes logs in with a username + password on the first attempt: remember the ip for 1 month and give the user when logging off "forget about this computer" and "log off"
      1. if a client makes only one attempt to enter a single username + password and it's wrong: ban the ip after 1 hour. The failure notice should explain that they must correctly login within an hour or they will not be able to log in from this computer.
      2. if a client makes one attempt to enter each of three usernames and none work: ban the ip after the third failure
      3. if an account has 10 failed attempts in a row, fail all future attempts not from whitelisted (0) addresses with a notice indicating all of the ip's + dates that have tried to attempt since the last successful login. The user will have to contact you out of band.

      How would this work?
      the average case for the user is #0, that makes the user happy.

      If the user has a password sniffer or root kit on the computer from #0, it doesn't matter, the user is already screwed, so no protection for logins will be useful. As such adding any "security requirements" for this threat is just cost for the user without benefit.

      case #1, an attacker is trying to be clever and tries to defeat your typical defense mechanisms by using a botnet. A botnet can have 4 million computers, and as long as we're willing to ban them all, that's ok. You will need to be able to store bans for 100 million computers (25 large botnets), and that's unfortunate, but maybe you can share this cost somehow.

      Without case #1, each client can attack as many accounts as it likes for as long as it likes.

      Harm to user because of case #1: normally the user will get his username and password correct: cost 0.
      If the user doesn't get his username and password correct the first time, the user will try again, after all the user needs to log in: cost about the same as if the rule wasn't present.

      case #2, an attacker decides to distribute attacks against different accounts, after three different accounts the client is blocked, this gives your average botnet 12 million attacks (annoying, but oh well), note that as you probably have fewer than 12 million accounts, and clients are going to spend a lot of time guessing accounts that don't exist, most clients will be locked out before they guess a single valid account (let alone password) and therefore their harm to your user's is 0 (minus storage cost which you have if you have any logging anyway, and connection cost which you have with or without this policy).

      Without case #2, each client could attack as many accounts as it likes as long as it likes.

      Harm to user because of case #2: if the user doesn't typo his username correctly, there are two chances to get it right with the correct password, the user will hopefully get it right the first time, cost minimal, and it's a cost the user was going to pay anyway. If the user gets it wrong too many times, your average defense system was going to lock the user out anyway, and the user was going to contact support, so you haven't changed anything.

      case #3, an attacker starts a targeted attack against a single user. the attacker gets 10 chances (distributed over 4-10 clients). As long as the password is strong enough to withstand 10 guesses, the account is protected and when the user does try to log in, you're able to tell the user that someone has been attacking the user's account.

      Without case #3, an attacker can try to attack an account for as long as it likes. In reality you almost certainly have a lock o

    4. Re:6. Change often by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In theory, if you change your password often enough before the brute-force being complete, the attacker would have to start all over again.

      Nice theory, but wrong. Assuming reasonably strong password, the probability of guessing the password in the first n attempts is roughly equal to the probability of guessing it with the next n attempts.

  23. It's obvious by vakuona · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's obvious that most computer security practices are the equivalent of cracking the metaphorical nut with a sledgehammer. My personal pet hate is the password aging practice. It specifically does one of two things. It discourages people from choosing strong passwords because strong passwords are more difficult to create and remember than weak ones. The second is that users may resort to writing passwords down because some expert decided they needed to change their password every 30 days. And often you get thet password change prompt right when you are about to go on a long holiday, which guarantees that you will not be able to remember it

    One reason for this is that organisations have to show that they are serious about security, and practices like password aging are easy 'objective' metrics to demonstrate, even if they do not provide a measurable improvement in security.

    1. Re:It's obvious by Sancho · · Score: 1

      I'd love to see a real study on whether password aging actually increases security. Unfortunately, security is difficult to measure.

    2. Re:It's obvious by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Password aging is very useful for gradually and automatically removing passwords that has been "lent" to others and disabling accounts that should have been disabled (consultants, former employees etc).

      I wish someone implemented a firewall with the same functionality. If a rule is not activated within NN days, it's automatically disabled.

    3. Re:It's obvious by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And when management replies with the inevitable, "Password aging provides a fail-safe against compromised accounts," then what is your reply? Your comment is highly rated, so there must be lots of slashdotters who can shed some light on this for me.

    4. Re:It's obvious by Dadoo · · Score: 1

      Crap. I wish I had seen the GP, before I posted a comment above.

      what is your reply?

      I can't speak for anyone else, but I'd reply "Chances are, when someone compromises your account, they install a back door." After that, you can change your password as much as you want, and the hacker will still be able to connect.

      --
      Sit, Ubuntu, sit. Good dog.
    5. Re:It's obvious by knarfling · · Score: 3, Informative
      A tough question, especially since "best practice" dictates that the password be changed often. I did a little research into this and found that UNIX is actually the culprit for needing to change passwords often.

      It seems that several year ago, the /etc/passwd file was world readable (since it had to be read in order to log in), and that both the username and password was stored there. (Now the passwords are stored in /etc/shadow which is not world readable.) It was fairly simple for someone to download a passwd file and then run it through a dictionary cracker to find the passwords. In the early 80's it was found that a dedicated mainframe could crack any dictionary word in the passwd file in about eight weeks. If the hacker only had access for a couple hours a day, it could take up to four months. (If a complex password was used, it would take much longer or possibly never be cracked.) Therefore, if a person changed his password every 30 days, he could be sure that by the time the hacker cracked his password, it had been changed.

      However, as computers became more powerful, the time to crack passwords from a passwd file became less and less, a better solution needed to be found. One method was to separate the password from the username into a shadow file, and make sure that the shadow file was not world readable. A cracker would need to break into the computer with root privileges in order to read the password file so that they could break into the computer.

      Unfortunately, the above explanation is long, complicated, and goes against "best practices." I have tried pointing that out to several "Security experts" without any success. Pointing out that passwords will be written down if they have to be changed often will not help much either.

      --
      Great civilizations have lived and died on false theories. Don't mess up mine with a few facts.
    6. Re:It's obvious by Geoffrey.landis · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And when management replies with the inevitable, "Password aging provides a fail-safe against compromised accounts," then what is your reply?

      I would reply that requiring passwords to be changed frequently provides little or no fail-safe against compromised accounts.

      Once they've installed the malware on your machine, it doesn't matter that you changed the locks.

      However, frequent mandatory password changes, along with a requirement for impossible-to-remember passwords, will pretty much insure that users will write their passwords down. If "users should write passwords down and keep the written-down password in a convenient, easy to access location" is part of your security plan, frequent resets and complicated password rules should do it.

      --
      http://www.geoffreylandis.com
    7. Re:It's obvious by Spit · · Score: 1

      Good firewalls like OpenBSD PF let you query the match count of rules, handy for optimizing rulesets and clearing out unused rules.

      --
      POKE 36879,8
    8. Re:It's obvious by Spit · · Score: 1

      That's why it's important to limit user account access and keep internal hosts patched and hardened.

      --
      POKE 36879,8
    9. Re:It's obvious by francium+de+neobie · · Score: 1

      It seems that several year ago, the /etc/passwd file was world readable (since it had to be read in order to log in), and that both the username and password was stored there.

      You would be right if you said a decade or two ago. Nobody has been storing local passwords in /etc/passwd for a very long time. But now we have badly configured NFS, LDAP and database servers to worry about.

      Also.. root escalation attacks are usually done without any password hash... decrypting password hash is usually too much hassle compared to other security holes.

    10. Re:It's obvious by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One bank wishes it had a password changing policy, it would have saved it billions.

      The primary advantage of password aging is that people don't know their co-workers passwords. Working together with people for years you tend to know their passwords if it is rarely changed.

    11. Re:It's obvious by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      The problem is that nobody ever got fired for turning on the password aging setting on their OS. Nobody ever gets flagged in security audits for it either.

      The IT guy's job is to keep his job. An easy way to keep your job is to do whatever it is that will make anybody who looks over your shoulder happy, regardless of whether it benefits the shareholders.

      Likewise, if you're a boss make sure you keep your employees on-site from sunup to sundown and don't let them work from home. It shows that you run a productive department.

      And make sure you buy security products from Symantec, McAfee, or somebody else who is at least as expensive. Better still, pay a consultant big bucks to have them tell you to do this, and then follow their advice. Now when you get rooted you can point out that you followed best practices.

    12. Re:It's obvious by gordguide · · Score: 1

      Good point. I would like to add that most computer security practices may be valid, and even useful, but those in charge of establishing security with computing act like their pet app/website/bank/hardware is the most important thing on Earth, period. Oh, and it's also implicitly trusted, so the user should grant it access to ... well ... everything.

      Problem one results in the situation where five minutes of your time invested in security for this pet app or service is not that significant, but having 30 groups of security requirements needing five minutes .... whoa, there, son! You want me to do what??

      Problem two results in the user being nagged into defeating the very security the other 29 services are simultaneously building.

      It's little wonder that giving up and going commando is so attractive to users.

    13. Re:It's obvious by echnaton192 · · Score: 1

      If someone "lends" his password to another person, you have bigger security problems. And 60 days are enough time to do really bad stuff.

      Changing passwords every 60 days leads to weak passwords. Period.

    14. Re:It's obvious by knarfling · · Score: 1

      Exactly my point! Yes, early 80's was a decade or two ago. But that was when the policy of Change-your-password-often was conceived. But it is still "Best Practice" so we have to put up with password changes every 30 days. Personally, I think a 6 month change policy or, at the very most, 90 days between password changes is sufficient.

      --
      Great civilizations have lived and died on false theories. Don't mess up mine with a few facts.
    15. Re:It's obvious by psydeshow · · Score: 1

      If "users should write passwords down and keep the written-down password in a convenient, easy to access location" is part of your security plan, frequent resets and complicated password rules should do it.

      Good, that's what I want. A strong password, written on a card that the user keeps in their wallet or pocketbook along with their other valuables. Theft happens, but at least the user will know right away if their wallet was stolen.

      People aren't afraid of strong passwords, they're afraid of having to memorize and recall strong passwords.

  24. Security and Shared Risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That $50 liability per customer represents a shared-risk pool, i.e. insurance. In the US, we also have the FDIC insurance. As a bank customer, I welcome that insurance over putting money in a mattress.

  25. 7. Don't re-use passwords across sites by hrimhari · · Score: 1

    TFA:

    This would appear to include only the cases where
    the user is phished (rather than keylogged) or a rogue
    employee steals the credentials from A. This appears
    a minor reduction of risk for a 3.9x magnication of
    password management effort.

    Unless the user in question uses facebook. Or rather is a rival of the site he's using.

    --
    http://dilbert.com/2010-12-13
    1. Re:7. Don't re-use passwords across sites by Sancho · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I think it's a credible threat. I've had my password compromised (as part of a larger compromise) 4-5 times in my life that I know of. Realistically, it's probably happened more than that. Re-using passwords would have meant that I'd want to change my password at umpteen sites (many of which I probably wouldn't remember.)

    2. Re:7. Don't re-use passwords across sites by bloodSausage · · Score: 1

      I used to subscribe to a popular Canadian DVD-by-mail service, and then later suspended my account. Some months later, the company sent me an email questioning why I wasn't using my account. Supposing that it was because I had forgotten my password, the email helpfully contained my account password. Who needs an attacker to crack passwords? I'm not in the habit of using the same password on lots of sites, so this wasn't a big deal for me and my already suspended account, but it might be a big deal for a lot of other users who received similar emails. And that is what I told them when I called to complain and delete my account.

    3. Re:7. Don't re-use passwords across sites by Sancho · · Score: 1

      That's one of my pet peeves.

  26. Trust=f(time) Some security advice is not rational by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Likewise, there's no real security reason to password protect your account on your home computer that nobody but you uses, and no security reason to not use autologin.

    Almost, no quite. I maintain a 'guest' profile when I have company so they can use the computer without messing up my profile. I like my configuration the way it is. As well, auto-login really only makes sense on a single user computer. For any system that is truly multi-user, you want to hit the user selection screen at startup, otherwise you have to wait for logging out/task switching before you can login. (my wife and I both bounce between computers)

    Lastly, even in Linux having an actual password is important as it's what prevents apps from self installing. Yes there's the negative of getting people used to typing in their password with every damn update, but that's better than allowing things to completely self install.

    This of course, gets back into the economics of the whole thing. What is the real likely-hood of someone penetrating the ubuntu repositories and turning the world's ubuntu installs into a botnet with a kernel update?

    How about this, instead of worrying about automatically getting the latest and greatest updates right away but still needing to enter your password: only grab updates that are older than 'X' but they'll auto-install? There could very well be more value in having the downstream computers ignore any updates that are less than a week or two old. This gives the repository monitors time to discover anything fishy. For a computer to download the update, it would have to look at see the update on the server (ie: download it but not install), get the md5/sha hash and compare it with the server. Wait a week and do it again. If that specific update hasn't changed, go ahead with the install from what is already downloaded.
    If the user is really sure they want the update, they can password prove for it and force the install, but this provides a relatively trustworthy mechanism of verifying and automating updates without harassing the user.

    One could expand this to have updates get rated with feedback from the users. Most installs will go fine, but occasionally something gets borked. Users could optionally feedback on updates, so those updating afterwards can set a 'success rate' value to not install updates that have more than 'X' problems reported. This part can be gamed, unless you build trust into the feedback mechanism. Each install auto-generates a gpg certificate. Each 'complaint' gets rated by how many successful (signed) update reports have been submitted by the same key in the past.

    Ultimately and security infrastructure depends on trust, and trust is a function of time and abuse.

  27. "Most People" by drumcat · · Score: 1

    Hey, technogeek, "most people" are the people you're supposed to work with. You guys get all bent when Apple is 'draconian', and yet you come to conclusions about average users. It's not that at all. It doesn't matter what OS you're talking about. When is the last time you tried to update your security? OK, go have someone at least 60 years old do it for you, and all you can do is talk without seeing the screen. See how long THAT takes. The more difficult security is to deal with, the less often it is used, and that's not just computers. That's EVERYTHING security. I would make the case that it is more important to get the security updating as seamless and silent as possible.

  28. XP Updates by drumcat · · Score: 1

    What is rational about all the hurdles you have to jump through now?

  29. What's up with /. Headlines? by AlgorithMan · · Score: 2, Funny

    Users Rejecting Security Advice Considered Rational

    noun gerund noun noun gerund adjective - WTF!?
    is sentence structure really that hard? how about

    Users reject security advice, that are considered rational

    ?
    What is up with /. headlines? lately you see lots like this one. It looks like someone had thrown a dictionary into a blender...

    --
    The MAFIAA is a bunch of mindless jerks who will be the first up against the wall when the revolution comes
    1. Re:What's up with /. Headlines? by porges · · Score: 2, Informative

      In this case, it's a reference to an old pre-Internet computing meme, most famously seen in the paper "Go To Statement Considered Harmful". See here.

    2. Re:What's up with /. Headlines? by grcumb · · Score: 1

      Users Rejecting Security Advice Considered Rational

      noun gerund noun noun gerund adjective - WTF!?

      Users reject security advice, that are considered rational

      Or, more accurately (and appropriately alliterative), with BBC syntax:

      Rejecting Security Advice is 'Rational': Researcher

      --
      Crumb's Corollary: Never bring a knife to a bun fight.
    3. Re:What's up with /. Headlines? by KingOfTheDustBunnies · · Score: 1

      Users Rejecting Security Advice Considered Rational

      noun gerund noun noun gerund adjective - WTF!?

      Nope. Noun participle noun noun participle adjective.

      Maybe I'm just getting old, but I think headlines everywhere have become significantly more opaque in the last decade. This one is actually better than average, having (I think) only two plausible interpretations.

      Users reject security advice, that are considered rational

      Now that reads like a headline from Xinhua.

    4. Re:What's up with /. Headlines? by je+ne+sais+quoi · · Score: 1

      Nope. Noun participle noun noun participle adjective.

      Double nope. What kind of advice was it? It was security advice. Security modifies advice, that means it's being used as an adjective, not a noun.

      --
      Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the war room!
    5. Re:What's up with /. Headlines? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Users Rejecting Security Advice Considered Rational

      noun gerund noun noun gerund adjective - WTF!?

      is sentence structure really that hard? how about

      Users reject security advice, that are considered rational

      Your solution changes the intended meaning. The title implies the user is rational. Your solution implies the advice is rational.

      how about
      Users who reject security advice are considered rational by security expert.

    6. Re:What's up with /. Headlines? by jlintern · · Score: 1

      noun gerund adjective noun verb adjective - WTF!?

      Fixed that for you. "Security" is the type of advice being given, so it is effectively an adjective in this sentence. It's just subject-verb-adjective with a complex subject.

      A headline with the same structure could have been: "Students Taking Music Lessons Considered Intelligent", which I don't think anyone would have a problem with.

      The real issue with this headline is that it's unclear if 1) advice is rational, 2) the rejection is rational, or 3) the users themselves are rational, which could be made clear by these alternatives:
      1) "Users Reject Rational Security Advice, Researcher Argues"
      2) "Rejecting Security Advice Is Rational For Users, Researcher Argues"
      3) "Rational Users Reject Security Advice, Researcher Argues"

      The "considered" construction can be elegant in some cases but I don't think it should be used when it can introduce this sort of ambiguity.

    7. Re:What's up with /. Headlines? by mcsneedy · · Score: 1

      'Users reject security advice, that are considered rational' swaps an unclear referent for an extraneous comma AND a number-verb misalignment - ie one error for two, not to mention the meaning of your version appears to be the opposite of the actual point of the story.

      Try this instead: Users' rejection of security advice is considered rational; or, Users who reject security advice are considered rational.

      The problem is that while verbs are typically ommitted from headlines but in this case you need the verb (is or are in these versions), or you need to reword along these lines: Users considered rational for rejecting security advice.

      As for the actual story, I don't see what's so groundbreaking about the conclusions - anybody who's had to change a password or use a token or certificate (not to mention apply security patches, set up LAN security, etc) knows what a pain it is.

    8. Re:What's up with /. Headlines? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      headlines are rarely grammatically correct. they have to say a message and have shorter limits than twitter.

    9. Re:What's up with /. Headlines? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      um really, how about;

      Users Reject Security Advice That Is Considered Rational

      you could use Advices, but that's terrible English. And capitals for headlines, please.

    10. Re:What's up with /. Headlines? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Errrr....

      1) considered - passive past participle, NOT gerund.
      2) advice - collective noun, with SINGULAR inflection (in English - though many other European languages do indeed go plural here)

      oh, and

      3) the Law of Headlines Anywhere: compress maximum ideas into fewest words. Grammar and style are the two little kids in the corner with a black eye and fat lip.

    11. Re:What's up with /. Headlines? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Or, more accurately (and appropriately alliterative), with BBC syntax:

      Rejecting Security Advice is 'Rational': Researcher

      Researcher: Rejecting Redoubting Recommendations 'Rational'

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    12. Re:What's up with /. Headlines? by KingOfTheDustBunnies · · Score: 1

      Certainly. In English we use nouns as adjectives all the time, and I'm trying to decide whether one of these "is" a noun or an adjective. Perhaps it depends on what the meaning of "is" is.

      Maybe we can agree on noun present-participle noun-adjunct noun past-participle noun?

      Still, in a discussion of grammatically ambiguous headlines, it may in fact be more relevant that the basic nature of the word "security" is nounish. One has to parse at least part of the headline in order to determine that it's being used adjectivally. In this particular case that's not the difficult part of the headline, but in another case, such as the good example that I'm too lazy to construct right now, it might be.

  30. Security on the web by daffey · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Technically savy people are missing the point. The average user doesn't understand 'how to install,understand messages, etc of all the security issues out there. (myself included) The average Joe is fearful of his security, but cannot negotiate the maze of security issues. They go to retailers for answers, and get soaked for software solutions, much of which isn't any better than the free solutions, etc. They are not"stupid/lazy/ or penny pincers". Some (probably most) are smarter than the geeks on the web, but just in other areas. Or were born before transistors existed, and Bakelite was the major synthetic insulator in electronics.

  31. Ubuntu torrents by tepples · · Score: 1

    Unless you count the "GPL is the General Public Virus" misconception, then these torrents should be well known as virus-free.

    1. Re:Ubuntu torrents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry those torrents seem to be infected with GPLv3. How about these torrents.

  32. No, you missed the point. by hey! · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I have a simpler conclusion... Most users are idiots!

    You're only half right. It turns out that most users are *selfish* idiots.

    I used to feel a little bad about hating users. I was afraid it might be arrogant to despise the people who, ultimately, justify my salary. But now I see they deserve whatever they get.

    --
    Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
  33. Its not that, baby ... by PPH · · Score: 3, Funny

    I just can't feel the 'Net if I'm using protection.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
  34. However much you may try to 'rationalise' it... by myowntrueself · · Score: 1

    Human beings are NOT 'rational animals'

    Any theory that depends on humans being rational agents is inevitably flawed.

    --
    In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
  35. I used to agree with you ... by nadahlman · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I used to hate expiring passwords on the financial data systems where I used to work. Then one day the Comptroller was locked out of his own account because he had tried his old password too many times. But it turned out the Comptroller was on vacation and hadn't even tried to log in.

    It turned out that an inside person had put a physical keylogger (USB pass-through device between computer and keyboard, ordered straight from China) on the Comptroller's computer one night and collected it a week later, and then subtly tampered with her own salary. She had also stolen the e-mail passwords of any employee who would have been alerted about the change, and instantly deleted the e-mail notifications as soon as she modified the system. She was sophisticated enough to alter other logs and alerts as well.

    We might have locked down our internal systems better to begin with, but I have to say that she might have gotten away with it if it hadn't been for those darn password changes.

    1. Re:I used to agree with you ... by thepainter · · Score: 1

      I doubt she tremendously increased her salary as that would be noticeable at a later time. The question then being whether or not it would have been better to take the chance of her getting away with it than burdening the cost of maintaining an expiring password scheme. Time/frustration spent by users, IT personnel reseting said passwords, etc. I'm not suggesting an expiring password scheme isn't worth the cost, especially on a financial system per se, but it's type of issue raised by the article.

    2. Re:I used to agree with you ... by Matt+Perry · · Score: 1

      It turned out that an inside person had put a physical keylogger (USB pass-through device between computer and keyboard, ordered straight from China) on the Comptroller's computer one night and collected it a week later

      Are the users required to change their passwords every week? If not, just to play devil's advocate, if she had logged data for a month, or waited a week or two, it's likely that she would have been successful.

      --
      Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
  36. It's got to hurt before they'll act by Trip6 · · Score: 1

    You try and try to teach your child about how knives can cut them. Keep them pointed away from you, cut carefully, blah blah blah. But until it actually cuts them, they won't know for sure the threat. if anything, they will hear your annoying voice and that's the only reason they won't act foolishly.

    If you really want the general population to react, get them to feel the pain. Perhaps simulate a security breach for each individual?

    Alternatively, lecture them until they hear your annoying voice in their head 24 x 7.

    --
    I hate being bipolar; it's awesome!
  37. Good article! by Geoffrey.landis · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I have to say, the linked article is the best article on security that I have ever read; and, for that matter, just about the first one that ever considers the radical concept that the user's time is of value.

    "Third, the claimed benefits are not based on evidence:
    we have a real scarcity of data on the frequency and
    severity of attacks."

    This is a very good point. What fraction of attacks are frustrated by making users change their passwords from one which is chosen from a set of 1E12 possible passwords, to one which is one of 1E20 possible passwords? How much safer do they get if you then say they have to have a symbol as well?

    When they make me jump through hoops, I'd like to know what exactly I'm gaining.

    --
    http://www.geoffreylandis.com
    1. Re:Good article! by echnaton192 · · Score: 1

      Where are the mod points when you need them? You are right. Reasonable (!) security advices people would actually follow. That is the key. My mantra for years now.

    2. Re:Good article! by psydeshow · · Score: 1

      The problem is that the difference is both a moving target and a matter of resources. What takes 30,000 hours on a laptop today might take 7000 hours in 2016. But what takes 30,000 hours on a laptop today would only take an hour or two using massive parallelism in a computing cloud, should the attacker be willing to pay for it.

      Aside from effective key length, which makes even techies' eyes glaze over, there is no reliable index or baseline that we can use to compare different schemes against both time and available resources.

      Even if you use effective strength as a yardstick, it still provides no justification for using one strength over another, because it depends on context. Keeping your brother out of your diary vs authorizing million-dollar wire transfers.... which should be protected by a longer password? It kinda depends on what's in the diary.

    3. Re:Good article! by Geoffrey.landis · · Score: 1

      Uh, so paraphrasing what you just said: not only does nobody know how many attacks are frustrated by strong passwords, nobody knows whether strong passwords frustrate any attacks at all. But maybe they will be needed in 2016.

      No wonder the security people don't tell that to the users: they'd be lynched.

      --
      http://www.geoffreylandis.com
  38. Another possibility... by WeatherGod · · Score: 2, Insightful

    For some family members where I have suggested very basic security steps like disabling automatic logins, turning automatic updates on for everything (not just Windows), and a few other usual steps, they have asked "what for? The hackers are gonna get in anyway!"

    It has become so ingrained in them that hackers are everywhere and that they are so talented that it is futile to resist. Quite honestly, I can't understand this mentality, but it does exist.

    1. Re:Another possibility... by echnaton192 · · Score: 1

      For some family members where I have suggested very basic security steps like disabling automatic logins

      I think you are missing this documents point.

      Automatic logins do NOT invcrease the vulnarability significantly.

      According to the document, it decreases the security as users abandon security alltogether for a very real reason:

      The cost for security are higher than the risk costs for each user. So they behave "economically rational" by not following your rule instead of having a strange mentality.

      The point is

      1) No normal user for example could manage all the passwords on all the sites he visits, banking accounts, email, you name it. The average user has 24 logins to manage, while I assume we as slashdotters have about 60.

      If you follow the standards of not reusing your password across sites and use strong passwords, passwords become impossible to handle. If you type in the passwort for every site you visit you lose time.

      2) If the PC is compromised, typing in the password doesn't really help, because the password is logged anyways.

      How about telling them, for instance, to use firefox, use really strong passwords for each site and store it in firefox, using a single, strong, master password? The passwords would be encrypted then.

      THAT would tighten security while the actual cost for the user (in time) is little. Or you could ask them to use keepass or whatever safe program to safely store passwords and automatically insert them to the logon screen.

      And about the software update:

      The updating mechanism is allright for windows update.

      But it has become impossible for Joe Average to handle all the updates for all the other programs, even if he only installs the basic programs.

      You get a new install every few days. Flash, Acrobat, Apple (itunes, quicktime, bonjour), Java, Firefox or whatever you use, the mail program,... you get the point.

      With secunia for example, the "cost" of updating all the software is dramatically reduced as it tries to keep track of the most critical programs.

      Try that (or a similar program) and ask them to run that program from time to time to stay safe.

      Try to make them work as a normal user instead of working as an administrator. This tightens security and - assuming they are using windows - together with UAC is actually quite manageable since windows 7 came out.

      KISS. Make security easy for your folks. Only that works. The document is right. Normal security advices like "always type in your password" costs more than the risk cost for the individual user.

      That is why we as power users that are asked to "fiix it" need to think about SIMPLE security measures that costs VERY little time to follow.

    2. Re:Another possibility... by WeatherGod · · Score: 1

      For some family members where I have suggested very basic security steps like disabling automatic logins

      I think you are missing this documents point. Automatic logins do NOT invcrease the vulnarability significantly. According to the document, it decreases the security as users abandon security alltogether for a very real reason:

      This particular family member was starting college and was going to live in a dorm. Automatic logins for those whose computers are easily accessible to others is a bad idea.

      How about telling them, for instance, to use firefox, use really strong passwords for each site and store it in firefox, using a single, strong, master password? The passwords would be encrypted then.

      That was one of the suggestions.

      And about the software update: The updating mechanism is allright for windows update. But it has become impossible for Joe Average to handle all the updates for all the other programs, even if he only installs the basic programs. You get a new install every few days. Flash, Acrobat, Apple (itunes, quicktime, bonjour), Java, Firefox or whatever you use, the mail program,... you get the point.

      I was not talking about those programs, I was talking about turning on automatic updates for all MS products. This is not turned on by default (at least when I last checked for Vista).

      I have already realized that it is next to impossible to expect most users to keep the rest of their software up to date, and I wasn't going to ask them to do so. I was trying to have them use some non-invasive, useful settings that probably should be the defaults, but are not.

      Try to make them work as a normal user instead of working as an administrator. This tightens security and - assuming they are using windows - together with UAC is actually quite manageable since windows 7 came out.

      That was the other suggestion I had for them. I did manage to get one family member to follow this, but mostly because I set up their computer.

      KISS. Make security easy for your folks. Only that works. The document is right.

      I never said that the document was wrong. I am merely pointing out that some users have a defeatist attitude towards securing their computers. I am really curious as to how that attitude developed. Is it Hollywood's fault? Is it the fault of the news media? Maybe it is the level of fear that we instill in order to try and convince our family to secure themselves? I do not know, but it does exist.

    3. Re:Another possibility... by NeoSkandranon · · Score: 1

      the mentality comes from too many drama-documentaries on TV

      --
      If you can't see the value in jet powered ants you should turn in your nerd card. - Dunbal (464142)
  39. the typical user has no incentive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I used to work in a restaurant. The manager always wondered why his employees wasted so much food and used equipment roughly. At 16, I went through a prodigious amount of glassware. Why weren't we careful? Because it was a pain. It took time. The manager wanted us to get things done as fast as possible. Many of us didn't like the company and felt a little better if something broke. Occasionally something big would break, or we'd run out of an ingredient early, and that was ok too--we then had less work to do.

    There's not a lot of incentive for someone to take the trouble to change their password each month and to use difficult characters and when such a thing becomes mandatory, they'll write it on a post-it not and stick it to their monitor. When the boss yells at people with post-its on their monitor, the employee will email the password and account name to themselves.

    People do good work when they love their work. If you fire all your workers who don't love their work, you won't have many workers. There's always going to be a gradient.

  40. Ignorance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Slashdot, where anything outside of computing is "new" or "novel" or "creative".

    The conclusion (that rejecting computer security advice is rational) is not unusual from the POV of economics.

    Imagine a mainstream paper shouting "Computers can print on both A4 and US Legal paper".

  41. so long and thanks... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    The article doesn't talk about costs to others.
    Indeed, Herley's paper would probably be better titled "So long, and thanks for the externalities" -- for most end users (read: end users not in the IT dept), security countermeasures are not taken precisely because the majority of the cost is externalized, either to the business they work for, to the bank that will reimburse them for lost $$$, or to the world in general in the form of yet another botnet node. The $120 they pay geek squad to clean their computer every now and again is a small portion of the overall cost of their lack of security. Because they don't feel the full blow, they are less likely to modify their behavior. And that is the essence of what an externality is, AFAIK.

    Ultimately, I think the biggest problem with Herley's paper is the same problem a lot of economists have with "free agents" -- they make an argument that observed behavior is rational, and then assume that the actors are therefore behaving rationally. In actuality, it's merely coincidence that the observed behavior is rational and there is therefore no reason to suspect that, in the future, choices will continue to be rational.

    This is most true for end users (businesses = econ/business people = trained to make decisions as economists... so big surprise they follow "rational models"). This is because even if observed behavior in consistent with rational choices, the choice is not made because it's rational. People get their information on computer security from hearsay and anti-virus advertisements, and often make emotional choices ("ZOMG EVIL HACKERZ, MEH IDENTITY!!!") that provide the path of least resistance ("look, norton seems to claim it's a golden bullet, and I don't have to learn hard new stuff.")

  42. The Best Security is Worthlessness by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I have always maintained that the best security system is to have nothing to protect. Sure if you are talking business systems or governement this method is simply not an option but on a personal computer it certainly is. My best example is my old car that I always left the doors unlocked on so no one would break a window to find out there was nothing worth stealing. I also removed the ignition so it could be started without a key. The only security I had was a kill switch hidden under the dash which killed the electrics. I even once profited when a potential thief left one of his tools in my car by mistake.

    This principle is one od the ones that makes personal linux so secure, there is virtually no profit or satisfaction to be had designing viruses and trojans for linux when the same effort could compromise hundreds of windows pcs.

    If you have nothing to steal you don't need locks and people that try to sell you locks never seem to understand this.

  43. Of Course by CrazyDuke · · Score: 1

    Of course it's an economic assessment. And, you are dealing with people that think the lottery is the best-shot investment strategy for retirement. Bad stuff only happens to bad people and I am a good person. So, what's the point of this again?

    --
    Any sufficiently advanced influence is indistinguishable from control.
  44. Sounds like this guy rediscovered K.I.S.S. by JSBiff · · Score: 1

    In one of the sections of this article, the author uses, as an example, how complex URL 'interpretation' can be for average users, going over all sorts of ways phishers can attack bank/ebay/paypal/amazon URL's.

    I figured this out a long time ago. I'm very much a K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple, Stupid.) advocate with regards to this particular problem. The advice I would give any 'average user' who came to me is simple: never click links, or call phone numbers, or use any other communications mechanism provided in emails purporting to come from a business entity. If it claims to come from your bank, you should probably call your bank's customer service phone number (from your bank statement or ATM card, or if you know your banks URL, open your browser and type it in yourself, or use a bookmark you have already preveiously saved in your browser from a previous visit to the bank's website) to verify if there is a problem with your account. Just take the email completely out of the equation.

    That way, they don't have to judge if the email and link are legitimate or not - just don't use the email.

    Links that are just to a page of photos, or a map, or something like that, are ok to click, generally, but if any link you follow from an email asks you for personal info or a login, or asks you to download something to the computer, just close the browser, step back, and do the above (e.g. calling the bank/business, or opening a new browser window and going to the proper website manually for by bookmark).

    With that advice, I have to teach them exactly nothing about how to understand URLs. It's also fairly common-sense advice that most people can easily understand - it's very unlikely that the phone number on your bank statements and cards are not 'authentic'. Most bank statements probably include the URL of the bank's website, too, these days - mine definitely do.

    By not following links in emails, you can avoid probably 99% of phishing attacks - no matter how cleverly they manage disguise the links in the email.

  45. Taking a harder line on phishing-friendly sites by Animats · · Score: 2, Interesting

    On the phishing front, it's useful to stop blaming the end user, and blame the site that hosted the phishing page.

    For some time, I've encouraged taking a harder line on phishing-friendly sites, sites that host phishing pages. I had a paper on this at the 2008 MIT Spam Conference. At SiteTruth, we take the position that one phishing page blacklists the whole second-level domain. Here's the current list of major domains being exploited by active phishing scams.

    The free hosting sites and the "short URL" sites show up on the blacklist regularly. After much nagging and some press coverage, most of them are now very aggressive about kicking off phishing pages, and they don't stay on for long. The better ones now read PhishTank and the APWG blacklist automatically and kick off anything that shows up. Currently, Google is in the doghouse, because they've recently entered the "free hosting business" without adequate phishing defenses. See this abuse of Google Spreadsheets.

    At the moment, "t35.com", a free hosting service, is the site most abused in this way, by a large margin. I've contacted their people. The problem is that they're being attacked by a program, and they're cleaning up by hand. Right now, they're hosting 545 known phishing pages. Nobody else is even in double digits. "piczo.com" (a social network/free hosting service for teenage girls) was the last big victim, but they're gradually getting the problem under control.

    A Draconian blacklisting policy may seem harsh, but it encourages site operators of easily-exploited sites to be very aggressive about dealing with the problem. We're seeing more free hosting sites with a "click here if this is abuse" button on every page. The number of people who have to be educated to deal with the problem in this way is in the hundreds, not the hundreds of millions. So it's a solveable problem.

    If you're going to blame the victim, this is the way to go at it.

  46. HINT: by Dorsai65 · · Score: 1

    It isn't just ONE thing, or even mostly one. It's varying permutations of varying degrees of all of the above, depending on the user, OS, risk(s), and solutions available.

    --
    --- Asking inconvenient questions for over 30 years...
  47. Super locked down systems just lead to high tech w by Joe+The+Dragon · · Score: 1

    Super locked down systems just lead to high tech work time and people bypassing the system just to get work done with out having to sit on hold / wait for paper work to there job done.
    and if your help desk spends all day just unlocking and re lock stuff for uses you may be a little to much locked down.

  48. Re:sentence structure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Users Rejecting Security Advice Considered to be Rational

    Simple and clear.

  49. Re:You be trollin' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My fully updated copy of Windows XP Pro x32 SP3:
    C:\Windows = 5.25GB, 17,179 files, 1,716 folders

    TROLLS!

  50. We need to study probability perceptions by UBfusion · · Score: 1

    Interesting effort. However I don't see any user model behind it - and in fact economics are a good way to get rid of human models since the process of using average economic behaviour actually marginalises all the unknown parameters that normally should be taken into account for each individual.

    Users' perception of risk, to which the paper devotes only a small paragraph, is to me of paramount importance. For example, personally, I will decide to more security measures under only either of the two conditions:

    1. If I already have had a security accident incident in the past (or if a friend/family/colleague of mine had one).

    2. If the perceived by me risk of a particular attack is considered as "high".

    Both these are purely experiential factors. Advice from webpages of magazines or my firm's list of security measures are irrelevant to me because I consider their probability of occurring low. But when an accident happens near me, it will raise my perceived probability of the specific threat, and force me to take precautions.

    Therefore, the above two factors increase the (subjective) probability of attacks and thus then and only then become motives for me to educate myself (or convince my friends/family/colleagues that they should listen to me).

    In conclusion, in my humble opinion, users' conceptions of PROBABILITY is the primary factor that should be researched and taken into account when trying to approach security-related user behaviour.

    Anybody familiar with the pioneering (and Nobel prize-worthty) 30-year old work of Tversky & Kahnemann will find an abundance of well-established research results that will enable them and guide them to conduct research and publish at least 20 papers on users' (mis)perception of IT security and formulate highly predictive user models based on users' fallacies regarding the evaluation of probability.

    I am giving away this tip for free, since IT security is not my field. I just kindly ask future authors to acknowledge the source of the idea.

  51. Excellent article by golodh · · Score: 0
    I believe the underlying article by Michael Kassner is spot on.

    What computer enthousiasts like to call "an end-user being lazy, stupid, and ignorant" is simply an end-user refusing to sink a lot of time into non-revenue activity that isn't even guaranteed to protect them. There really is no call to regard users as stupid because they're not interested in knowing a lot about their computer and only want to use it as a tool to do their (office) work and to surf or to connect to social networks.

    For example the note that strong passwords don't help if someone is able to install a trojan (let alone a keylogger) on your machine (or network) is spot on. In order to rationally evaluate the benefit of having strong passwords a user would need to know the probabilities of his account or machine being attacked, and conditional on that, of the strength and sophistication of his attacker. Conditional on the sophistication of the attacker you get a different set of probabilities of a his password being brute-forced or dictionary-guessed, or his machine being hijacked through vulnerabilities(whether zero-day, or simply unpatched).

    In addition the recommendations for password length, composition, non-dictionary and non-sharing are one thing. However, together with this the recommendations to change it often, not to write it down, and not to re-use it across sites is very burdensome to users. And frankly unrealistic. Such rules are percieved more as a cheap cop-out on part of IT experts than helpful advice.

    Being interested in, knowledgeable of, and spending time understanding and monitoring the workings of, your computer is a discretionary choice, not a compulsory one. Which is why e.g. Microsoft Windows still holds such overwhelming market share: they address the need for a computer in the role of a simple utility.

    That piece about certificate errors and how to spot fake URLs is also spot on.

    I'm afraid that the article hits the nail on the head: only computer enthousiasts, computer burglars, and IT professionals can rationally be expected to expend that much time and effort on being knowledgeable about and avoiding security pitfalls. Ordinary users really do make a rational decision in rejecting elaborate security measures, and asking for a simple and easy-to-follow set of rules in order to stay safe.

    Unfortunately computer burglars adapt too. So any set of fixed rules will be met by an attack that's optimized to defeat it. Adherence to security rules may make life much harder for an attacker, and may even thwart 99% of all existing "dumbo attacks". However it takes only 1 attacker with a higher level of sophistication (or simply a bought zero-day exploit) to target you or your machine and you've lost anyway. In this light it's pretty reasonable to take a critical view of security advice and to reject it if it becomes too much of a hassle.

    Something like that may be difficult to swallow for the average Slashhdot reader though.

  52. Many wont EVER support Linux: FPGAs/IP to protect! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Try getting MOTU or Firewire RME stuff to work in Linux/BSD...

    You *won't ever be able to*.

    I was told by RME that they wouldn't EVER release OSS-compatible drivers for their firewire stuff, because it'd give their competition advantage in reverse-engineering their stuff.

    ALL E-MU cards? Never available for us.

    You want 2 channels of *balanced* I/O, the 1010LT is fine.

    You want multi-channel, GOOD multi-channel, your only choice becomes the RME Hammerfall DSP series, through PCI/PCIe/ExpressCard, and that is stupidly expensive, for most. ... or, just wipe Linux off your system, install MS-Windows, and BE ALLOWED to use all the different HW choices...

    Most of the HW "choice" is deliberately blocked from us by the makers/vendors, either due to FUD or to "religion" or something.

    ( if RME believes that their determined competitors are going to be stopped from reverse-engineering their FPGAs by simply not releasing a Linux-compatible driver, they're delusional -- disassembly of their Win/Mac drivers is entirely possible, in free countries... )

    Anyways, MOST good A/V stuff is deliberately broken for us, in order to enforce a homogenous market.
    ( that's the real reason, it seems -shrug- )

    And with copyright-infringement being felonized in ACTA, Linux users *accessing* AVCHD source material we shot, or mp3 files we paid for for our soundtracks, are more likely to be convicted of crimes, for participating in our culture!

    ( Once copyright infringement becomes felonized, then patent infringement would be next on the agenda. Then trademark infringement. )
    Ain't Life ( the way the gangs make it ) Grand?

  53. This is why users like iPhone's audited apps by gig · · Score: 1

    This is no surprise at all. If there weren't a cost benefit to pushing the responsibility for malware onto the user, platform vendors wouldn't do it. Microsoft wouldn't do it.

    That is why iPhone users see it as an advantage that Apple audits the native apps to keep the platform 100% malware-free. It's anti-virus that requires nothing from the user. This is what 90% of users EXPECT TO GET FOR FREE. They do not expect to have to be an I-T person at all and platform vendors should not expect it either. They expect their system to do only the things they ask it to do, they expect apps not to be doing sneaky stuff behind their back. When you think about it, that's what they ought to expect.

    When somebody with an iPhone tells me they like the App Store, they are installing hundreds of apps, I always ask them, "are you concerned about malware?" and the most common answer by far is "what's malware?" and occasionally somebody says "no, I know Apple is auditing the apps." So competing vendors who want to sell to iPhone users are going to have to provide 100% malware-free platforms. The users are already spoiled for anything else. Android has a much smaller user base yet there has already been an incident of malware being downloaded from Android Market, and an incident where a consumer was sold a phone that had multiple malwares running on it. That has to be fixed. It's irresponsible to sell a malware-capable phone to an iPhone user. That responsibility has moved back onto the platform vendor and it's not going back to the users. There are 4 billion plus mobiles that are about to get smart and the users do not want to take computer science courses or play junior I-T man. But the benefit to vendors and developers is that once users can trust the apps, they buy and use many, many times more of them. If you ask people to tell you how many apps they installed on their iPhone and on their Mac/PC, the iPhone always wins. Mac/PC software developers should be so lucky as to sell apps like iPhone developers sell apps.

    Consider if Windows XP had only been able to run audited apps from the start, we would have no botnets right now, we wouldn't have situations where consumers are having their bank accounts emptied by malware on their PC's. Don't you think that if iPhone can go 3 years with no malware, always-on, always-connected, that a full Windows PC should be able to do the same? A Windows PC can't go 3 months.

    So the tech community is going to have to take more responsibility. The computer scientists and I-T people all already have PC's. If you want to sell more on top of that, you have to take more responsibility. If you want to put computers into 20 devices all around the typical human, you are going to have to make them much less fragile and exploitable than Windows and Android.

  54. Job security by catman · · Score: 1
    I was reminded of this ...

    tempers flare The threat of Open Source indeed.

  55. Maybe the average user has little to fear. by Simulant · · Score: 1

        This is going to piss everyone off but seriously...

        Other than the hassle of an infected/compromised and possible identity theft, what do most people have to fear if their PC is compromised? The worst case for most people would be identity theft, and most of those cases would simply result in bogus credit card charges which, in general, get refunded by the credit card agency. Clean your PC, cancel your card(s), & change your passwords and get on with your life. Many worse things can happen.

        I'm sure you can all come up with more serious doomsday scenarios and there will always be serious exceptions but give me just one that is has the likelihood & consequences to make an average user really care.

        I would even say the average business has little to fear as well. Certainly their employees do.

  56. Google on the go can cost $600 per year by tepples · · Score: 1

    let's see, what kind of tools does the general public have at their disposal. Oh, wait, I know! How about *drumroll* Google?

    Not everybody has the disposable income for a smartphone with which to search Google for compatibility information while inside Best Buy.

    Unless googling "$hardware linux drivers" is considered rocket science these days

    Access to Google inside a shop isn't rocket science as much as a luxury. People are more likely to have Internet access at home than on the go. Not everybody is willing to pay $600 a year to upgrade from a $10 per month prepaid plan with a "feature phone" to a $60 per month contract plan.

    and folks that do think it is typically don't buy a separate soundcard to do their own upgrading.

    I'm not talking about sound cards as much as printers and flatbed scanners. If you don't have a printer, you can't print a list of compatible printers to take into Best Buy.

  57. Re:Many wont EVER support Linux: FPGAs/IP to prote by fbjon · · Score: 1

    I have an Echo Audio MIA that works well in Ubuntu using just the Medibuntu repo, balanced as well as digital I/O. I haven't checked if the higher end cards and boxes work, though.

    --
    True confidence comes not from realising you are as good as your peers, but that your peers are as bad as you are.
  58. "Some feel..."?? by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

    Some feel that regardless of what happens, users will only do the minimum required.

    It is a known fact that all life that survives, is that which used the most efficient way. Even on other planets. And in fact in the whole universe. Because the laws of physics demand it.

    And if you look at it, it does not look as if it would hurt them enough for it to be worth to do something about it. Even with a botnet client on their system.

    Believe me, when they hear that their neighbor got to jail for hosting child porn, because of a trojan running on his system, they WILL try to prevent it. Or just die out. (Unless protected by false but politically correct “being social” saving those failures.)

    --
    Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
  59. Common sense? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is it just me or does this article simply sound like common sense? Users only follow procedures that benefit them. Theoretical attacks are theoretical while security policies are real and immediate. How is this news?

  60. Any prevention effort costs more? No. by jwhitener · · Score: 1

    "prevention is more expensive than repair/recovery/treatment"

    I don't think you can proclaim that as universally true. Especially if you start talking about medicine/social services. And I'm pretty sure there are many computer related situations where that statement would not be true. For instance, military computer networks.

    From http://swpc.ou.edu/doucments/publications/ResearchSummary10.04.pdf :

    "Primary Findings
      Return on investment of prevention programs range from $2-$20. That is for every
    dollar spent on prevention programs, from $2 to $20 is returned in benefits. Benefits are
    estimates of savings over a period of time resulting from reduced demand for health and
    social services.
    "

  61. Some "counter-testimonials" to the contrary... apk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Average Joe User is cheap and lazy, that's a given" - by Ethanol-fueled (1125189) * on Tuesday March 16, @04:33PM (#31501726) Homepage

    Not every "avg. 'Joe User'" is that way - you're "over-generalizing" on your part man! I've got proofs of guys JUST LIKE THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT YOU STATE TOO man, keep reading, IF you are interested...

    ----

    "What dosen't make sense are the people who bitch and moan about what a hassle Linux is to set up and get figured out, while they waste hours and hours of their time and money cleaning out their Windows installs, setting up anti-malware programs that waste even more time in the form of annoying pop-up reminders and eaten CPU cycles, and even reinstalling their O.S.; if not bothering or paying somebody else to do it. I'd been toying aroung with Linux and Unix for years for business and personal use, but I finally switched for good when I realized that I was wasting more time with Windows than I would with a *NIX O.S."" - by Ethanol-fueled (1125189) * on Tuesday March 16, @04:33PM (#31501726) Homepage

    Well, because of that, & especially vs. that which I quote from you above, initially in my reply here? There are also MANY "avg. 'Joe User'" types who, conversely & in response to what you stated of them above (again, what I quoted from you above 1st/initially in this very reply of mine to you): They start reading & learning HOW it's done to secure a Windows system properly (as well as habits/behaviors online to avoid for "smarter/safer" websurfing too)... & know what?

    Hey - They also do well @ it!

    Proofs? Ok - First, the security guide they used (I wrote it, & have been writing it/building upon it, since late 1997 in fact (for Windows NT-based OS users)):

    ----

    HOW TO SECURE Windows 2000/XP/Server 2003, & even VISTA/Windows 7 (+ make it "fun-to-do" via CIS Tool Guidance & beyond):

    http://www.tcmagazine.com/forums/index.php?s=568d95985ad83ef4add94de09f6026d3&showtopic=2662

    ----

    It works, & is based on the concept you lay out via your quoted words above - what computer security folks the past few years have been calling "LAYERED SECURITY"...

    Proofs to its efficacy? Ok, some quoted testimonials:

    ----

    http://www.xtremepccentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=672ebdf47af75a0c5b0d9e7278be305f&t=28430&page=2

    "I recently, months ago when you finally got this guide done, had authorization to try this on simple work station for kids. My client, who paid me an ungodly amount of money to do this, has been PROBLEM FREE FOR MONTHS! I haven't even had a follow up call which is unusual." - THRONKA, user of my guide @ XTremePcCentral

    AND

    "APK, thanks for such a great guide. This would, and should, be an inspiration to such security measures. Also, the pc that has "tweaks": IS STILL GOING! NO PROBLEMS!" - THRONKA, user of my guide @ XTremePcCentral

    AND

    http://www.xtremepccentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=672ebdf47af75a0c5b0d9e7278be305f&t=28430&page=3

    "Its 2009 - still trouble free! I was told last week by a co worker who does active directory administration, and he said I was doing overkill. I told him yes, but I just eliminated the half life in windows that you usually get. He said good point. So from 2008 till 2009. No speed decreases, its been to a lan party, moved around in a move, and it still NEVER has had the OS reinstalled besides the fact I imaged the drive over in 2008. Great stuff! My client STILL Hasn't called me back in regards to that one machine to get it locked down for the k

  62. Because our time is not of value [Re:It's obvious] by Geoffrey.landis · · Score: 1

    If "users should write passwords down and keep the written-down password in a convenient, easy to access location" is part of your security plan, frequent resets and complicated password rules should do it.

    Good, that's what I want. A strong password, written on a card that the user keeps in their wallet or pocketbook along with their other valuables.

    Since the standard demands that the password be used to exit screensaver, and screensaver must activate in fifteen minutes of disuse, keeping passwords written down in the wallet wastes too much time. Expect passwords to be on a post-it note posted to the screen, or written in pencil on the keyboard.

    ...People aren't afraid of strong passwords, they're afraid of having to memorize and recall strong passwords.

    Users aren't "afraid" of anything of the sort. They are, however, massively pissed off by "security" measures that have no rational claim to thwart attacks in the real world, but which waste hours of user time as if user time had no value whatsoever. Guess what: changing my password from an eight character alphabetic password to twelve characters mixing upper, lower, numbers, and symbols is not going to thwart even one phishing attack ever.

    The referenced article suggested that system admins should treat user time as if it's worth 2.6 billion dollars an hour. (200 million users, times $13/hour). Current system administrators treat it as if it is free.

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    http://www.geoffreylandis.com