Slashdot Mirror


Stand and Deliver Teacher Jaime Escalante Dies

DesScorp writes "Jaime Escalante, the math teacher portrayed in the hit '80s movie Stand and Deliver, has died of cancer at age 79. Escalante is legendary for creating the advanced math 'pipeline' program at Garfield High in East Los Angeles in the '70s and '80s, an area populated mostly by poorer Hispanic families. Escalante's students eventually outpaced even richer schools in advanced placement tests for calculus. Escalante refused to accept excuses from his students or community about why they couldn't succeed, and demanded a standard of excellence from them, defying the notion that poor Hispanic kids just weren't capable of advanced work. While Escalante became a celebrity because of the hit movie about his efforts, jealousy from other teachers ... as well as red tape from teacher's unions and the public school bureaucracy, resulted in Escalante and his hand-picked teachers leaving Garfield. Since his departure, Garfield has never replicated Escalante's success with math students, and Reason Magazine reported on the shameful way in which others tore down what Escalante and his teachers worked so hard to build."

389 comments

  1. Truly an American icon. Or at least a Mexican one.

    --
    Only three things are certain; death, taxes, and apocryphal quotations - Ben Franklin.
    1. Re:Truly by TrisexualPuppy · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Yes, my cousin Juana was one of his students, indirectly. She went on to major in math at Cal and ended up graduating magna cum laude. Whenever you ask her about her academic career, the first person she points to is Escalante.

    2. Re:Truly by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 1

      Truly an American icon. Or at least a Mexican one.

      I think he was Bolivian maybe.

    3. Re:Truly by BadAnalogyGuy · · Score: 4, Funny

      Juana tell us more about her and her experiences in Escalante's class?

    4. Re:Truly by idontgno · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Technically, Mexico and Bolivia are both American.

      And as we all know, "technically correct" is the best kind.

      --
      Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
    5. Re:Truly by Locke2005 · · Score: 4, Informative

      He was from Bolivia. Hispanic != Mexican.

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    6. Re:Truly by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Technically, Mexico and Bolivia are both American.

      But Mexico is not Bolivia. That was my only point.

    7. Re:Truly by bunratty · · Score: 3, Funny

      What I want to know is if she is merry!

      --
      What a fool believes, he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.
    8. Re:Truly by DesScorp · · Score: 1

      Truly an American icon. Or at least a Mexican one.

      Escalante was from Bolivia.

      --
      Life is hard, and the world is cruel
    9. Re:Truly by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 1, Interesting

      But he educated the Hispanic poor community, which is why he would be an icon for them.

      St. Patrick wasn't Irish, but is definitely an Irish icon.

    10. Re:Truly by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 2, Funny

      So fucking what. One's full of wetbacks and the other is full of spics. I'M NOT SEEING A MEANINGFUL DIFFERENCE HERE.

      That doesn't speak highly of your intelligence.

    11. Re:Truly by HungryHobo · · Score: 5, Interesting

      one thing that caught by eye:

      Open Enrollment. Escalante did not approve of programs for the gifted, academic tracking, or even qualifying examinations. If students wanted to take his classes, he let them.

      His open-door policy bore fruit. Students who would never have been selected for honors classes or programs for the gifted chose to enroll in Escalante's math enrichment classes and succeeded there.

      it hints perhaps that the drive to try is far more important than natural ability.

    12. Re:Truly by srussia · · Score: 1

      Juana tell us more about her and her experiences in Escalante's class?

      Hey B.A.G., that was a pun not an analogy. Maybe you should expand your nick to BadTropeGuy.

      --
      Set your phasers on "funky"!
    13. Re:Truly by d3matt · · Score: 1
      My wife got into the better SAT prep courses at her high school by forcing her way in (there was some entry test she didn't quite pass). I'm glad she did because she was national merit!

      Advanced classes should always be easy to get into!

      --
      I am d3matt
    14. Re:Truly by Kingrames · · Score: 1

      http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_James_Olmos
      If people were to make that mistake, it may be due to the actor who portrayed him, who was (and might still be) Mexican.

      --
      If you can read this, I forgot to post anonymously.
    15. Re:Truly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      I think Carlos Mencias pointed this out before. If you are hispanic and live in L.A. you are Mexican.

    16. Re:Truly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My wife got into the better SAT prep courses at her high school by forcing her way in

      How? With physical force? Is she big and intimidating?

    17. Re:Truly by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

      I believe Olmos and Escalante were both Americans. You can be American and still be Hispanic. You can only be both American and Mexican if you have dual citizenship.

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    18. Re:Truly by MarkvW · · Score: 1

      Should have rtfa. Mr. Escalante was of Bolivian heritage.

    19. Re:Truly by AP31R0N · · Score: 1

      Balderdash! Everything south of Texas is Mexico.

      --
      Utilizing the synergization of benchmark e-solutions to pre-workaround action items!
    20. Re:Truly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      Someone else probably said that first.

    21. Re:Truly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe a nerd icon too? He made learning cool, and he was played by Adama in the movie.

    22. Re:Truly by JustOK · · Score: 1

      Adama 2.0

      --
      rewriting history since 2109
    23. Re:Truly by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 1

      St George was Turkish, yet plenty of racist twats in the UK have him tattooed on their body.

      I find that most amusing.

      They find it less so when you point it out...

      --
      Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
    24. Re:Truly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mexicans are also American and so is every single person of the Americas but Unitedstatians are so bad at geography and history that they usually don't know that.

      United States Of America - OF is a proposition means belonging to does not makes it. United States That Belong To America. America beeing the Continent.

    25. Re:Truly by Maximum+Prophet · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The flip side, is that the students that didn't want to be there, weren't. I remember many kids in High School that disrupted class because they didn't want to be there.

      --
      All ideas^H^H^H^H^Hprocesses in this post are Patent Pending. (as well as the process of patenting all postings)
    26. Re:Truly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, any idiot can tell the difference.

    27. Re:Truly by NotQuiteReal · · Score: 1

      he educated the Hispanic poor community

      Technically he educated some individual students, not a community. Now, apparently, his techniques have been abandoned.

      --
      This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
    28. Re:Truly by idontgno · · Score: 1

      Wikipedia says he was Palestinian:

      It is likely that Saint George was born to a Christian noble family in Lydda, Palestine during the late third century between about 275 AD and 285 AD, and he died in Nicomedia. His father, Gerontius, was a Roman army official from Cappadocia and his mother was from Palestine.

      So, his immediate ancestry was Cappadocian (in modern terms, Turkish) and Palestinian. That would make it so much more amusing to bait Anglo-racists with.

      --
      Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
    29. Re:Truly by nelsonal · · Score: 1

      That's interesting because I saw a study a few months ago that suggested that the school you graduated from wasn't very highly coorellated with your lifetime income, rather the schools you were rejected from were a better predictor.

      --
      Degaussing scares the bad magnetism out of the monitor and fills it with good karma.
    30. Re:Truly by hrimhari · · Score: 1

      Or at least a Mexican one.

      Yeah, especially in Buenos Aires.

      --
      http://dilbert.com/2010-12-13
    31. Re:Truly by gestalt_n_pepper · · Score: 1

      it hints perhaps that the drive to try is far more important than natural ability.

      I strongly agree. My degree is in psychology. I sucked at math in high school. These days I design automated testing system code frameworks and write control systems in .net. To me, the drive to try is everything.

      --
      Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
    32. Re:Truly by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 1

      Yeah, any idiot can tell the difference.

      Maybe. But only in idiot would believe that categorically speaking, Mexicans and Bolivians are so different from U.S. citizens, that they deserve to be despised.

      Anyone who believes that probably is ignoring the vast fraction of U.S. citizens that suck, and/or is ignoring the many good Mexicans and Bolivians. Such as the guy this story is about, for example.

    33. Re:Truly by hrimhari · · Score: 1

      Let's try again: Hispanic != Mexican

      Unless you actually meant:

      St. Patrik wasn't Irish, but is definitely an English icon.

      --
      http://dilbert.com/2010-12-13
    34. Re:Truly by nelsonal · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What about shortening names. Mexico is technically the United Mexican States, but the name is almost always shortened to Mexico. The US is the only country on either continent with America in it's name. Following the rules of every other country on earth is to drop adjectives or nous like republic or statesand the remaining word is your short name. For almost all these nations the people are given a term that derives from that word.

      --
      Degaussing scares the bad magnetism out of the monitor and fills it with good karma.
    35. Re:Truly by HeckRuler · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Probably by sheer stubbornness with a modicum of authority. There's a big lesson in Highschool about getting the system to do what you want. Turns out most of the time, the people whose job it is to say no will say yes if you're stubborn enough and have at least some plausible argument.

    36. Re:Truly by zegota · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This is why weighting AP grades is awful. At least 25% of the people in my AP classes were there solely because it offered a 5.0 for an A and a 4.0 for a B. It even got worse, when the kids who took all the AP classes ended up having a GPA above 4.0 -- meaning any non-AP class they took would actually *lower* their GPA, regardless of what grade they got. So yes -- open door policy, but you shouldn't provide an incentive for people who don't want to learn to take the class.

    37. Re:Truly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One thing caught my eye, from Escalante's Wikipedia page:

      "In 1982, Escalante came into the national spotlight when 18 of his students passed the Advanced Placement calculus exam. The Educational Testing Service found these scores to be suspicious, because all of the students made the exact same math error on problem #6, and also used the same unusual variable names."

    38. Re:Truly by raddan · · Score: 1

      I think the most important thing he did was tie the material to the student's ability level. It is absurd to put a student into a class because they "should know" the material. Sure, lots of things 'should' happen, but they don't. Escalante realized that students were coming into his classes woefully unprepared; it's not surprising that they fail. You can threaten someone into doing math, but you can't threaten them into learning it, but that's exactly what our teachers do. You have to want to do it.

      One of the things that people point out about the film is that the compressed time of the movie makes it look like he was some kind of miracle worker, transforming dropouts into math whizzes overnight. This couldn't be further from the truth. Escalante developed an integrated curriculum that began in elementary school.

      Escalante pointed out that you need to start early, and keep working through the program, because math knowledge is cumulative. Anyone who has taken advanced college math can plainly see this. Many symbols unpack into very basic operations, but unpacking them goes back a long, long way.

    39. Re:Truly by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

      Only if your family has been living there since before the border moved south...

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    40. Re:Truly by HungryHobo · · Score: 1

      The Educational Testing Service found the scores suspect and asked 14 of the passing students to take the test again. Twelve agreed to do so (the other two decided they didn't need the credit for college), and all 12 did well enough to have their scores reinstated.

      So if they cheated they apparently didn't need to.

    41. Re:Truly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >Turns out most of the time, the people whose job it is to say no will say yes if you're stubborn enough and have at least some plausible argument.

      You've never had to deal with government bureaucrats, have you?

    42. Re:Truly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think this is true. I am terrible at mathematics, I have been my entire life, and it takes me hours to do what other students can do in minutes.

      However I have never stopped trying, and got all the way from remedial math (learning to divide and multiply - seriously) several years ago to Calculus III and linear algebra now. It isn't any easier, but I know I can do the work if I just keep at it.

      As a kid I just gave up because I got stuck in all the 'stupid' classes with teachers and classmates who didn't care. I wish I had a cool teacher like Escalante who would have given me the chance. I had to wait until I was an adult and could pick and pay for my own classes at college instead of being moved around by guidance counselors to get my math education back on track.

      Very typical of school administrators; they undo all the hard work of good teachers and punish them for their sacrifice. America is so obsessed with blaming teachers for problems when it is almost always the administration that is at fault. It's a race up the ladder for them, they have no personal interest in the school, the children, or the quality of education. They will fire, intimidate, and harass anyone and everyone if it makes them personally look good. That's why good teachers who are expensive to employ get canned first, and replaced with twenty-somethings straight out of college who have zero experience in the classroom. They are cheaper and it makes the higher-ups look better for saving the district money.

    43. Re:Truly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is precisely one country in the world with the word "America" in its name. Only Europeans identify themselves by continent, and only a subset of them at that.

    44. Re:Truly by DrgnDancer · · Score: 1

      I think the point (perhaps poorly made up to this point, and almost certainly not what was meant by the original poster) is that while he was Bolivian, the people he educated were primarily Mexican-American. Therefore, while he might not have been Mexican himself, he can still be an icon to the Mexican (or Mexican-American) community. Hence the comparisons to St. Patrick and St. George, both of whom are particularly revered by people who are not of the same racial, cultural or ethnic background as they themselves were.

      --
      I don't need a million points of light, just two points of multi-mode fiber and a 10 Gig-E router.
    45. Re:Truly by ArcherB · · Score: 1

      http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_James_Olmos

      If people were to make that mistake, it may be due to the actor who portrayed him, who was (and might still be) Mexican.

      I thought Olmos was Tauren.

      --
      There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
    46. Re:Truly by guantamanera · · Score: 1

      What about shortening names. Mexico is technically the United Mexican States, but the name is almost always shortened to Mexico. The US is the only country on either continent with America in it's name. Following the rules of every other country on earth is to drop adjectives or nous like republic or statesand the remaining word is your short name. For almost all these nations the people are given a term that derives from that word.

      Yeah but there is a big different. United Mexican States is specifying that they're Mexican. Now United States of America is only says that part of America the continent.

    47. Re:Truly by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      So he taught in a very strict manner?
      Seems like they probably were taught a formal variable name system and maybe taught whatever subject #6 covered incorrectly.

    48. Re:Truly by mosb1000 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Now, apparently, his techniques have been abandoned.

      Indeed, they were much too effective in facilitating actual learning to be useful in a modern teaching environment. The system works!

    49. Re:Truly by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

      Yeah but there is a big different. United Mexican States is specifying that they're Mexican. Now United States of America is only says that part of America the continent.

      Uh... no it doesn't. It says that the collection of states is called America and people there are American just like 'Peoples Republic of China' says that the Republic is called China, and the people are Chinese. Not that it's a Republic that just happens to be contained in China (whatever that would mean).

      I mean, even in Spanish isn't "Soy Mexicano" equivalent to "Soy de Mexico"? I guess there could be a distinction between being ethnically Mexican vs simply having been born there, but I don't think that's the implication intended by "Estados Unidos Mexicanos". :P

      Besides, there's no continent called "America". If you would like to be called "North American" or "South American", be my guest.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    50. Re:Truly by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Uh... no it doesn't. It says that the collection of states is called America and people there are American just like 'Peoples Republic of China' says that the Republic is called China, and the people are Chinese. Not that it's a Republic that just happens to be contained in China (whatever that would mean).

      Not only that, but you don't have to come from China to be "Chinese". The people in Taiwan are also Chinese, even though they're neither on the continent of Asia (but on a nearby island), nor part of the People's Republic of China.

      I'll bet people from Taiwan don't make a big fuss when someone from China calls himself "Chinese", and loudly say, "No, you're from the People's Republic of China, not China! Get it right!"

    51. Re:Truly by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      He was from Bolivia. Bolivian = Hispanic.

      Mexican also = Hispanic, even though Mexican != Bolivian.

    52. Re:Truly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hence it being a "Bad Analogy", it was so bad it WASN'T one. That's how hardcore his analogies are.

    53. Re:Truly by SoTerrified · · Score: 1

      The Educational Testing Service found these scores to be suspicious, because all of the students made the exact same math error on problem #6, and also used the same unusual variable names."

      Given that most agreed to be retested and all passed, seems likely that Escalante had demonstrated a problem identical to #6 in class... And made a mistake which all his students duplicated.

      And as far as using the same variable names, you use what you're familiar with. It's not uncommon for students all under one teacher to use similar variable names.

    54. Re:Truly by yurtinus · · Score: 3, Funny

      Seriously raises questions - this one time I wrote a loop and used i as the iterator. Later on I was working on a program from one of the other guys and found out that son of a bitch STOLE my code and used the SAME DAMN ITERATOR NAME.

      Bunch of savages.

      --
      +1 Disagree
    55. Re:Truly by yurtinus · · Score: 1

      and he was played by Adama in the movie.

      This is one of my lifelong goals as well!

      --
      +1 Disagree
    56. Re:Truly by Dachannien · · Score: 3, Funny

      it hints perhaps that the drive to try is far more important than natural ability.

      Disagree with you Yoda does.

    57. Re:Truly by twistedcubic · · Score: 1

      Why would you be surprised that students taking the same class used the same variable names? I would be surprised if they didn't. Anyway, if only 14 of the 18 passed, I doubt "all" of the students had the same answers on "problem #6." You're giving the wrong group the benefit of the doubt here.

    58. Re:Truly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Besides, there's no continent called "America". If you would like to be called "North American" or "South American", be my guest.

      Most countries in this world do not split the Americas in 2, and most countries in count 5 or 6 continents and that is one of the reasons the olympics have 5 rings since there is no people in Antartica they don't use the 6th ring.

    59. Re:Truly by s73v3r · · Score: 1

      One would presume that, in a system like this guy's, most people attending were there because they wanted to be. Some would be there because their parents made them, and some would be there because some authority figure/mentor pushed them to be there.

    60. Re:Truly by MaskedSlacker · · Score: 1

      This is why colleges do not use the GPA's as stated by high schools, but calculate them separately in the admissions process. My school instituted a system meant to fix the problem of non-weighted classes lowering your GPA (mostly only a problem for us band-members) resulted in a situation where by taking six classes weighed 5.0 you actually got a 5.25 GPA. I forget what equation they used that did this, but it was retarded.

    61. Re:Truly by MaskedSlacker · · Score: 1

      Not news. This was even in the movie. They all retook a new, different, and harder test, and the all STILL passed it.

    62. Re:Truly by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

      Erm, I didn't know that, good point. Well that explains why there is confusion and hard feelings. Still, we're Americans for the same reason Mexicans are Mexicans and Chinese are Chinese.

      And okay how's this for a besides -- no matter how much you complain, most people in the world are still going to associate "American" with "from the US" and do you really want to be confused with us when traveling abroad? :)

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    63. Re:Truly by zegota · · Score: 1

      True, but the weighted GPA is still used for class-rank determinations.

    64. Re:Truly by MaskedSlacker · · Score: 1

      I was 23 out of ~800. On a non-weighted scale I mgiht have been 50th, without my non-weighted classes I might have been 19th.

      Either way, none of these things meant half as much over the course of the six years since I graduated high school as everyone seemed to think they would.

    65. Re:Truly by tibit · · Score: 1

      What if it wasn't an error, but the answer key was wrong?

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    66. Re:Truly by Mr.+Freeman · · Score: 1

      Actually you don't have to have an argument. You have to have the motivation to go over their head (i.e. parents calling the superintendent or threatening to bring in a lawyer) or be annoying (asking them repeatedly to the point that they give up and say "fuck it, do whatever you want").

      --
      -1 disagree is not a modifier for a reason. -1 troll, flaimbait, redundant, overrated are NOT acceptable substitutes.
    67. Re:Truly by Mr.+Freeman · · Score: 1

      Colleges generally don't give two shits about your class rank. They don't really care if you're the brightest moron or the dumbest genius in the entire school. They understand that weighted grades are complete bullcrap only used to artificially inflate GPAs and unweight them accordingly.

      --
      -1 disagree is not a modifier for a reason. -1 troll, flaimbait, redundant, overrated are NOT acceptable substitutes.
    68. Re:Truly by Mr.+Freeman · · Score: 1

      Well of course they're going to use the exact same variable names. If you're taught "u substitution" in which your teacher uses Tau instead of "u" then you're going to use tau on your exams because that's how you learned it. The majority of people I talk to seem to have learned "u substitution" as "u substitution" but I've also heard it called "v substitution", "t substitution", etc.

      The fact that a class of people taught by the same teacher used the same variable names as the teacher means NOTHING. Look at every other student, I'm sure that they all used "u" or another similar letter. Obviously, they must have cheated as well.

      --
      -1 disagree is not a modifier for a reason. -1 troll, flaimbait, redundant, overrated are NOT acceptable substitutes.
    69. Re:Truly by Mr.+Freeman · · Score: 1

      We'll never know because they don't release test material except that which they explicitly publish themselves. You are NEVER allowed to discuss the multiple choice questions of AP exams ever (you sign a poor version of an NDA). I almost want to go retake the test simply to walk out the door with the booklet and publish it. All they could really do is invalidate my previous test scores, which doesn't really matter because I've been in college for 2 years now with a ~3.0 gpa. The college isn't going to revoke me because some scores got invalidated.

      --
      -1 disagree is not a modifier for a reason. -1 troll, flaimbait, redundant, overrated are NOT acceptable substitutes.
    70. Re:Truly by stiggle · · Score: 1

      Here troll - have some food....

      Africans identify themselves by continent, as do Asians.
      "African-American" - 2 continents identifying someone's heritage. I'd have thought if they were using countries then it would be Kenyan-American or Mauritanian-American, etc.

      Not sure what the penguins in Antarctica identify themselves as though.

    71. Re:Truly by Bastard+of+Subhumani · · Score: 1

      Or "plato o plomo". That works too.

      --
      Only three things are certain; death, taxes, and apocryphal quotations - Ben Franklin.
    72. Re:Truly by Bastard+of+Subhumani · · Score: 1

      Should learn English. Most of the kids he taught were Mexican, and he was an icon to them.

      --
      Only three things are certain; death, taxes, and apocryphal quotations - Ben Franklin.
  2. Rest in peace. by gambit3 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'm going to cry. Really.
    I had the blessing to meet Mr. Escalante just a few months ago, before he was diagnosed with cancer. What a wonderful, wonderful man.

    They should name schools after people like him.

    1. Re:Rest in peace. by Cytotoxic · · Score: 4, Interesting

      One would think so. But if you read the fine article from Reason magazine, you'll see why that will never happen - at least not the public schools. In fact, the school he transformed worked very hard to undo all of his good works. Quite successfully too. Apparently, all evidence of math and calculus prowess and teacher competence have been eradicated at Garfield since he was pushed out.

    2. Re:Rest in peace. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Yeah, but Reason magazine is one of those pseudo-libertarian GOP shilling rags.

      Not to say that the article is wrong or its information is false; just that people interested in rational, fact-based inquiry would want to see the information confirmed by another source.
      Preferably, not another right wing bullshit factory.

    3. Re:Rest in peace. by negRo_slim · · Score: 1

      I'm going to cry. Really. I had the blessing to meet Mr. Escalante just a few months ago, before he was diagnosed with cancer. What a wonderful, wonderful man.

      They should name schools after people like him.

      One of my math teachers from high school was a huge fan of the movie and Mr. Escalante's work. So much that he even inspired me with his joy of teaching... to win the regional math competition; as my reward was a free pass to sleep through his class the rest of the semester.

      Needless to say I caught up on a lot of sleep during those days...

      --
      On the Oregon Cost born and raised, On the beach is where I spent most of my days
    4. Re:Rest in peace. by timeOday · · Score: 1

      I disagree with the slant of the article that this is a scandal. Have the Chicago Bulls been just as good without Jordan? Of course not. Special people are special. You are lucky when you get them, but most of the time you have to work around not having them.

    5. Re:Rest in peace. by Moryath · · Score: 3, Insightful

      They should name schools after people like him.

      Sure, whatever. Name whatever you want.

      What they REALLY should do is stop dumbing down the curriculum and "passing" ever-crappier performance, and follow the methods he used (no more excuses, no more "but it's hard why should I learn" bullcrap). Set the bar high and the kids will reach for it, set the bar low and kids will nap.

    6. Re:Rest in peace. by Maximum+Prophet · · Score: 2, Informative
      This is from the Washington Post article:

      ... In retirement, he divided his time between California and Bolivia, where he complained that several schools were named after him but had given him no money for the rights.

      One reason why they usually wait until someone dies to name something after the person.

      As an aside, Purdue University was named after John Purdue, and not only did the state of Indiana not pay him anything for the name, he had to bequeath many acres of land to get them to put his name on it.

      --
      All ideas^H^H^H^H^Hprocesses in this post are Patent Pending. (as well as the process of patenting all postings)
    7. Re:Rest in peace. by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 3, Informative

      So it'd be better if it came from a pseudo-communist Democratic shilling rags?

      Reason has been named one of the best english language magazines twice in the last 10 years.

      I work in K-12 education and have for the last 15 years, sorry to burst your bubble but it takes a moderate or right-wing news source to critically look at public education, the Unions and administration. Reason will look at it, so might the Atlantic but the New York Times sure isn't going to.

    8. Re:Rest in peace. by cduffy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I disagree with the slant of the article that this is a scandal. Have the Chicago Bulls been just as good without Jordan? Of course not. Special people are special. You are lucky when you get them, but most of the time you have to work around not having them.

      When you don't have those special people because they were driven out without good cause... then yes, it's scandal.

    9. Re:Rest in peace. by Bakkster · · Score: 1

      Step one is holding students (and teachers) accountable, which requires convincing everyone involved (students, parents, teachers, administrators) that it's a good idea. Good luck with that, let me know how it goes.

      Once you get that taken care of, then you can worry about setting the bar higher. While a single teacher might be able to take both steps at once (Escalante prooves this can work, for a time), reforming an entire institution requires baby steps.

      --
      Write your representatives! Repeal the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics!
    10. Re:Rest in peace. by Lunix+Nutcase · · Score: 2, Informative

      http://kristof.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/10/obama-takes-on-the-teacher-unions/

      Oh really?

      From the first paragraph:

      President Obama gets an A+ for his education speech just now. He made all the traditional and necessary points that one would expect a progressive Democrat to make — such as the crucial necessity of more early childhood programs — but he also added elements that will make teachers’ unions uncomfortable. And, frankly, that’s terrific. The Democratic Party has been too close to the unions for too long, and their interest is not precisely the same as the students’. The unions would be failing their members if they didn’t cry foul when bad teachers were pushed out, but that’s what we need more of. Education reform is going to mean challenging the unions, and Obama signaled that that’s what he plans to do.

      And that's not really the only opinion piece you can find from the New York Times that is critical of the teacher's unions.

    11. Re:Rest in peace. by Lunix+Nutcase · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Or instead of wasting time and resources on trivial things like naming and renaming schools (does the name of the school really mean anything?) they should instead be working to foster more teachers like Escalante.

    12. Re:Rest in peace. by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 1, Troll

      Opinion peace isn't the same as the organization going after an entity.

      Maybe the NYT is moderate enough to be critical, I just tossed up an example. Didn't have time to look further cause I'm at an Education conference ;)

    13. Re:Rest in peace. by causality · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I disagree with the slant of the article that this is a scandal. Have the Chicago Bulls been just as good without Jordan? Of course not. Special people are special. You are lucky when you get them, but most of the time you have to work around not having them.

      I think this gentleman and John Taylor Gatto have a lot in common. The "special" thing about Gatto is his ability to see a spade and call it a spade instead of getting lost in all of the justifications and excuses. This one-line summary in no way does justice to either of the above-linked works, but Gatto went to some of the poorest inner-city schools in some of the worst neighborhoods and found that the children there were eager and very able learners once you stopped treating them like idiots. You'd think the school systems would appreciate anyone who can demonstrate that, but they didn't.

      So I think your analogy to the Chicago Bulls doesn't really work. The Bulls experienced a particularly outstanding individual but presumably, all the other players would have wanted to attain that level of talent. The school systems are experiencing problems that are institutional and profoundly anti-educational. I don't believe the problem with schools is funding or ability. I think the problem is that they are not really interested in improving their methods or looking too closely at their results.

      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
    14. Re:Rest in peace. by Maximum+Prophet · · Score: 2, Interesting

      ... it takes a moderate or right-wing news source to critically look at public education, the Unions and administration. Reason will look at it, so might the Atlantic but the New York Times sure isn't going to.

      The Washington Post can be rather left leaning, but the education columnist, Jay Mathews, wrote a book on Jamie Escalante and often refers to his methods in his column. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/30/AR2010033003629.html?sid=ST2010033003904

      --
      All ideas^H^H^H^H^Hprocesses in this post are Patent Pending. (as well as the process of patenting all postings)
    15. Re:Rest in peace. by Maximum+Prophet · · Score: 1

      The school systems are experiencing problems that are institutional and profoundly anti-educational. I don't believe the problem with schools is funding or ability. I think the problem is that they are not really interested in improving their methods or looking too closely at their results.

      The people generally in charge of a school system are usually people who did well in that or a similar school system. They have no interest in changing things, because that's what worked for them.

      --
      All ideas^H^H^H^H^Hprocesses in this post are Patent Pending. (as well as the process of patenting all postings)
    16. Re:Rest in peace. by DrgnDancer · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I can't speak for the magazine in general, but this article seemed fairly balanced. It did leave some blame on the doorstep of the teacher's union, but pretty clearly laid the lion's share on the school's administration. It also (having been written in the beginning of the decade) expressed concern about the (then anticipated) No Child Left Behind act. That was a conservative darling at the time of the writing. Most of the facts are undeniable anyway. He build a huge and successful program, he was driven out by perceived lack of support from the administration and union, and the program fell apart after he left.

      As someone who generally supports both unions and government services, even I have to admit that neither encourage excellence. They are both very good things in many ways, and both serve useful functions in bringing the most good to the most people, but neither is designed to accommodate the exceptional well. Like so many things in our society, public schools and teacher's unions fall into the "terrible idea, but better than the alternative" category. This case simply demonstrates the lacks of both structures particularly well, because of the particularly exception nature of the people involved.

      --
      I don't need a million points of light, just two points of multi-mode fiber and a 10 Gig-E router.
    17. Re:Rest in peace. by Lunix+Nutcase · · Score: 1

      Maybe the NYT is moderate enough to be critical, I just tossed up an example.

      Yeah, you were basically pulling a Rush Limbaugh and smearing the NYT without actually doing any real research into your claims.

    18. Re:Rest in peace. by Maximum+Prophet · · Score: 1

      does the name of the school really mean anything?

      I don't know about the elementary and high school, but Purdue University students really do have an advantage in the job market they wouldn't have if it had been named Northern Indiana University. (which is what it is)

      Naming a school just seems like it would make for more inspired students than those at PS-1138.

      --
      All ideas^H^H^H^H^Hprocesses in this post are Patent Pending. (as well as the process of patenting all postings)
    19. Re:Rest in peace. by corbettw · · Score: 1

      Usually the honor of having your name affixed to something that'll last longer than you will is payment enough. Surprising that someone who chose teaching as a profession (not one known for its remunerative value) would place a dollar amount on such an honor.

      --
      God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
    20. Re:Rest in peace. by nomadic · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I can't speak for the magazine in general, but this article seemed fairly balanced. It did leave some blame on the doorstep of the teacher's union

      Well, it tried to leave some blame, as it was being written for a stridently anti-union publication, but all I see the writer saying is that the union wouldn't allow Escalante's successor to jam more than 35 students into his classes. Which I think is a good thing.

    21. Re:Rest in peace. by Lunix+Nutcase · · Score: 1

      Naming a school just seems like it would make for more inspired students than those at PS-1138.

      Really? I never met a single person in all of my years of schooling that ever gave a flying fuck what the name of the school was. If you're academic success entirely hinges on what the name of the school is, you're probably hopeless.

    22. Re:Rest in peace. by HeckRuler · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yeah, well professionalism is a little tough when you're dying of cancer and can't afford the treatment. The actors from the movie and his former students had to pool together to help him out.

      All the high and mighty ideals go out the window when push comes to shove and you're broke.

    23. Re:Rest in peace. by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 2, Informative

      No, unlike Limbaugh who uses them as a scapegoat all the time I picked them because they have a long history of loving the unions, communism and giving cheap ad rates to radicals like Moveon.org

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_The_New_York_Times
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_york_times#Controversy_and_criticism

      And once more, opinion pieces are just that, opinion pieces or blogs that aren't the official editorial stance or focus of the paper.

      Find me a NYT story that is critical of NEA and the major state teacher unions and I'll apologize for defaming the "Newspaper of Record."

    24. Re:Rest in peace. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I work in K-12 education and have for the last 15 years

      Well, being a janitor or gym teacher isn't really the kind of "working in K-12" education that'd be relevant here, but I didn't really expect much in the way of a quality response.

      There's just no point trying to discuss things with Limbaughnistas - you guys are a cult - utterly impervious to reason, facts, or arguments not specifically approved by Rush. I mean, you actually think the New York Times is a left-leaning paper. Talk about mindless repetition of your own bullshit turning into accepted facts.

      Also - pseudo-communist? Come on. Get some material from this century, man. I realize you guys are all middle age white folk who were scared shitless by the soviets and that's basically put the hurt on your minds forever, but couldn't you at least move on to a new bogey man? Or are you one of those who just uses communist to describe everything you don't like politically?

    25. Re:Rest in peace. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I think the problem is that they are not really interested in improving their methods or looking too closely at their results.

      You are assuming that their methods of gauging success are the same as yours. Public school curriculum is not designed to produce educated people, it is to produce workers.

    26. Re:Rest in peace. by raddan · · Score: 2, Insightful

      But it's more than that. You can't just set the bar arbitrarily high and hope that your kids will reach it. Many (most?) of them won't.

      Why? Because education is cumulative. The difference between the 8th grade and the 7th grade is supposed to be that the 8th grade students learn more advanced materials based on their learning in the 7th grade. In practice, it doesn't work that way, because curricula are myopic, because teachers don't care/only care about their fiefdom, because students lack any motivation, etc, etc, etc.

      Escalante saw all of this and said: OK, let's fix this. Let's start the program early (cumulative). Let's tell kids that this is their way out/their ticket to self-actualization (motivation). Let's make sure the right teachers are on the job (handpicked teachers who care).

      Throwing a kid into a calculus class to challenge him when all he's done is geometry is a surefire way to turn a kid off. This happened to me: they threw me into AP physics because I did well in other classes, but I had yet to take precalc, trig, or calculus. That experience turned me off to physics for a long time. I barely scraped by with a D, and I was one of the motivated ones (I won the high school science fair that year, for building a circuit that 'amplified' signals using stochastic resonance). Guess how motivated I was after that failure.

    27. Re:Rest in peace. by jdcope · · Score: 1

      Education reform is going to mean challenging the unions, and Obama signaled that that’s what he plans to do.

      Yet Obama named a union lawyer to the labor relations board. Go figure.

    28. Re:Rest in peace. by corbettw · · Score: 1

      Your post, while tragic, has nothing to do with what was being discussed. My comment was about the GP's quote from Escalante complaining that no one had paid him for the right to use his name on their schools. My comment was just the naming itself should be sufficient honor. It had nothing whatsoever to do with Escalante's medical and financial problems.

      --
      God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
    29. Re:Rest in peace. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, in other words the way it be true is if the information comes from an ultra liberal rag, right? Because everyone knows that anything that doesn't portray the DNC party line as the Lord's gospel truth has to be a right wing bullshit factory. Pbbbt.

    30. Re:Rest in peace. by hondo77 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Oh no! He's getting input from more than one side of an issue! That actually sounds fair and balanced.

      --
      I live ze unknown. I love ze unknown. I am ze unknown.
    31. Re:Rest in peace. by publiclurker · · Score: 1

      It seemed to me that the blame was rather equally divided between the administration and the unions. Having that many people in a class would be unworkable, but the correct response would be to open up another class. Instead, the principal tried to take away the one classroom that could even hold that number.

    32. Re:Rest in peace. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, OP was talking about teacher's unions (which should be obvious from context).

      Yet Obama named a union lawyer to the labor relations board. Go figure.

      That's true; and he'd previously nominated the Becker and Mark Pearce to the NLRB, as well as a Republican, Brian Hayes.

      After the GOP filibustered the nominations of all 3 nominees, Obama decided to use recess appointments to put the people he actually thought should serve on the board in place. If the GOP wants to be involved in making government decisions, they should participate in government.

      Remember the whole "up-or-down" vote thing that the GOP was all over back in the Bush years? Funny how that commitment to a fair, up-or-down vote completely evaporated when their guy wasn't in the White House. And before you start, the Democrats weren't nearly as bad as the current GOP is, obstruction wise. Indeed, I wish that they'd been a bit less willing to cave.

    33. Re:Rest in peace. by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Why? He was a terrible public school teacher, from everything I'm reading here. After all, he went against the conventional way of teaching, went against the teachers' unions, and actually tried to be an effective teacher and help kids learn advanced topics they otherwise wouldn't. That is completely against the way public school teachers are supposed to work. We don't send our children to public school to learn calculus, we send them there to be our babysitters, and to indoctrinate them into being good little worker-bees for the corporations. We can't be teaching anyone but a select few children advanced topics like Calculus, because once they learn to use their minds for advanced things like that, they might start questioning other things too, and we simply can't have that.

    34. Re:Rest in peace. by Cytotoxic · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That's a nice sentiment. Too bad it is just empty rhetoric. Where the rubber meets the road, the President killed the highly successful voucher program in Washington DC - actions defensible only as a chit tossed to the public teachers unions. And that's action he took before the referenced editorial was written. Unfortunately, this has been his M.O. - using the language of the right but governing from the left. It is actually a very effective rhetorical technique for a politician to use. Claiming that the NYT is taking on the unions because they toed the White House rhetorical line is not really that strong of an argument.

      I can't pretend that I know Jaime Escalante's career or opinions in detail - although his opinions on bilingual education and other union-opposed ideas are documented in the referenced article. A little googling shows that he "thought the union was going to focus on how to improve our skills. But they're more interested in politics than kids." In an article memorializing his career and legacy, it is sad to hold up a milquetoast administration cheerleading piece as an example of "taking on the unions", when the speech in question is really a cover piece designed to deflect attention from the real actions being taken, both great and small, that are bulwarks to the teachers unions.

    35. Re:Rest in peace. by Grishnakh · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Set the bar high and the kids will reach for it, set the bar low and kids will nap.

      Why would we want to set the bar high? The whole point of public school is to produce indoctrinated Americans who will be good workers and not question things. No one needs to know Calculus to make coffee at Starbuck's or work at the mall.

    36. Re:Rest in peace. by operagost · · Score: 1

      Obama standing up to unions? Not bloody likely.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    37. Re:Rest in peace. by operagost · · Score: 1

      All his "input" is balanced toward the unions. He's appointed THREE union bosses. It's long overdue, as Andy Stern had practically been living in the White House like a clingy girlfriend since the inauguration.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    38. Re:Rest in peace. by hondo77 · · Score: 1

      Claiming that the NYT is taking on the unions because they toed the White House rhetorical line is not really that strong of an argument.

      So they're damned if they do, damned if they don't, as far as you're concerned. Talk about empty rhetoric...

      --
      I live ze unknown. I love ze unknown. I am ze unknown.
    39. Re:Rest in peace. by yurtinus · · Score: 1

      It's crowded but can be workable. A large group of kids who don't want to be there is a recipe for disaster-- but that isn't the case here. This is an AP course with students who really are motivated to be there and a teacher who doesn't object to the class size. We're talking something closer to a college course than high school. Regardless, the school administration still refused to open up another class time.

      --
      +1 Disagree
    40. Re:Rest in peace. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Naming a school just seems like it would make for more inspired students than those at PS-1138.

      NY started naming schools like that because they found that it reduced violence between schools. Why did it reduce violence? I have no idea. But it is pretty well documented.

      Kind of like school uniforms. It has been shown that at schools were uniforms are made mandatory GPA's go up. Why? WHo knows, there are lots of theories. But the fact is that making kids wear uniforms ends up with them getting better grades.

      So as far as I am concerned; rename all the schools and force all the kids to wear uniforms. If they want to be unique snowflakes they can do it when they're not at school.

    41. Re:Rest in peace. by MaskedSlacker · · Score: 1

      he union wouldn't allow Escalante's successor to jam more than 35 students into his classes. Which I think is a good thing.

      YEAH! Screw those kids who actually want to get an education, and would have benefited much more from being included than being excluded. FUCK THEM! We need smaller class sizes even though we have no idea why! We don't actually care about kids learning, give us our made up numbers!

    42. Re:Rest in peace. by MaskedSlacker · · Score: 1

      Right, cause all those University of Southern California graduates are starving because their school wasn't named OJ Simpson's Murder-rama University.

    43. Re:Rest in peace. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is a weak argument. Take your partisanship elsewhere. Simply because you can contort your reasoning self to rationalize that this terribly inefficient outcome is somehow 'good', does not make it so. This is not about partisanship. The public school system is a miserable failure, especially when evaluated on a per dollar basis. Examples such as this can help illuminate what is wrong with it, and help with the important work of designing meaningful, successful reform. Most Americans are, educationally speaking, mumbling idiots, when compared to the rest of the world, especially the developing world (China, Russia, Eastern Europe, Asia, etc.). Claiming that 'we live in the best of all possible worlds' and that 'what is, is best' is simply delusional. If you don't want your grandchildren to wipe windshields in China in 40 years, you would be well advised to take these issues seriously.

    44. Re:Rest in peace. by tibit · · Score: 1

      It doesn't matter it's supposedly coming from a "bullshit factory" as you claim. The problem is that, sadly, you can expect no better from most U.S. public school systems. Part of it is bureaucrats who have no vested interest in improving things, as there is no system to make sure the bureaucrats face consequences of anything. The labor unions are no better, and act as parasites at best.

      Now, don't understand me wrong: I'm all for public schools, and my kids will stay in public schools all the way through high school, at least. There are nice exceptions from the rule: I know of a public elementary school where during last winter the principal would be seen daily shoveling snow in front of school. In her high heels, no less. This is but an example of her work ethic, and I'd steal horses with her any time.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    45. Re:Rest in peace. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They will man, they will. RIP Mr. Escalante.

    46. Re:Rest in peace. by hitmark · · Score: 1

      hmm, treating people like idiots. Now where have i encountered that before?

      --
      comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
    47. Re:Rest in peace. by One+Monkey · · Score: 1

      The people generally in charge of a school system are usually people who are so institutionalised they find it hard to cope anywhere except that or a similar school system. They have no interest in changing things, because that's what provides their wretched existences with the only modicum of comfort they are capable of generating for themselves trapped in their small-minded worldview.

      FTFY

      --
      www.nodicerpg.com - Some RP stuff for free, some not so for free, but still cheap.
    48. Re:Rest in peace. by DrgnDancer · · Score: 1

      I'm not at all sure where you go any of that from my post. Quite the contrary of being partisan I (a liberal) praised an article in an apparently conservative magazine, and point out weaknesses in the teacher union and public school models. I simply state that I can't come up with a more effective system. I, in fact, say that this scenario particularly highlights the weakness of these systems. I also find it amusing that you heap disdain upon public schools and then compare American children to those of China and Eastern Europe, both of whom are educated by public school systems.

      --
      I don't need a million points of light, just two points of multi-mode fiber and a 10 Gig-E router.
    49. Re:Rest in peace. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You only say this because people who actually use reason instead of emotion to make their decisions always wind up being conservatives.

    50. Re:Rest in peace. by rhakka · · Score: 1

      you say it's a good thing, except these guys were churning out mold-breaking scholastic powerhouses in classes with 50+ kids in them.

      in other words; they proved that class size was not a limiting factor (to the bounds they went to) in providing a good education, in their environment. and the union was totally wrong.

    51. Re:Rest in peace. by nomadic · · Score: 1

      you say it's a good thing, except these guys were churning out mold-breaking scholastic powerhouses in classes with 50+ kids in them.

      Actually based on the article this was during the time period they were in decline. And the union probably thought, quite reasonably, that if they gave in on this suddenly the school administrators would take advantage of this and start stuffing 70 kids in every class.

    52. Re:Rest in peace. by rhakka · · Score: 1

      From the article:

      "Escalante's open admission policy, a major reason for his success, also paved the way for his departure. Calculus grew so popular at Garfield that classes grew beyond the 35-student limit set by the union contract. Some had more than 50 students. Escalante would have preferred to keep the classes below the limit had he been able to do so without either denying calculus to willing students or using teachers who were not up to his high standards. Neither was possible, and the teachers union complained about Garfield's class sizes. Rather than compromise, Escalante moved on."

      Escalante had the class sizes in question. He wouldn't turn away kids when he was obviously already successful, but left in part over the issue. I don't believe "in decline" describes the state of his math program while he was there. Certainly the "10 percentile" bump class size reduction can bring in some cases did not apply to his students since they were already in the top 10 percentile or damn near.

      rather than carve out an exception for exceptional performance, slavish devotion to ill fitting rules crushed a major educational opportunity for hundreds, or thousands of kids over the years just in that school. Sad. But Sadly, not rare.

  3. To hell with those who won't better themselves. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    To hell with those people who won't voluntarily better themselves.

    If you don't continually strive to do better on your own, then that's your problem and you should be shunned by everyone who can take a little bit of initiative and learn things on their own.

    Like this incident shows, the issue in this case, and many others, isn't about the people being stupid. It's about them just not caring enough about themselves to improve their situation.

    1. Re:To hell with those who won't better themselves. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      To hell with them? No, to hell with social Darwinism.

    2. Re:To hell with those who won't better themselves. by CorporateSuit · · Score: 3, Interesting

      His case is an interesting one in the Nature vs. Nurture argument. He showed that, by nature, inner city hispanic kids were just as capable at advanced studies as anyone else -- it simply required a mixture of blasting the old nurture ("You'll never be good enough to be something like an engineer, so why don't you just open a restaurant, work construction, or run a shop?") with discipline, attention, expectation, and teaching.

      --
      I am the richest astronaut ever to win the superbowl.
    3. Re:To hell with those who won't better themselves. by TheLink · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Escalante's example is nearly opposite of what you're proposing. It's about someone caring enough about OTHERs and improving their situation dramatically.

      You on the other hand are barking up the "people should just help themselves" tree.

      --
    4. Re:To hell with those who won't better themselves. by Locke2005 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      People tend to live up to other people's expectations. Teachers don't expect Black and Hispanic students to do well. Yes, ultimately people are responsible for their own success or failure, but it doesn't help when you've got teachers telling young kids "It doesn't matter if you do your homework or not -- we'll promote you anyway" (and yes, my ethnic daughter was actually told this by her teacher -- the same teacher that threatened to sue me for complaining she wasn't doing her job.)

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    5. Re:To hell with those who won't better themselves. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People tend to live up to other people's expectations.

      More than that, people tend to live down to other people's expectations too.

    6. Re:To hell with those who won't better themselves. by DesScorp · · Score: 1

      Escalante's example is nearly opposite of what you're proposing. It's about someone caring enough about OTHERs and improving their situation dramatically.

      You on the other hand are barking up the "people should just help themselves" tree.

      But while he personally sacrificed to help others... he could have made a lot more money had he stayed at Burroughs... he in fact did very much demand that his students take personal initiative. He wasn't a raging Libertarian or anything, but he DID expect a large sense of personal responsibility from his students.

      --
      Life is hard, and the world is cruel
    7. Re:To hell with those who won't better themselves. by Locke2005 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You can't force people to learn. Escalante's gift was his power to inspire others to improve their own education. He didn't do the work for them -- he just convinced them that he believed they could do it, and that it was worthwhile. Let's not kid ourselves; these kids worked their asses off to pass the Calculus AP exam. They couldn't have been so successful if it wasn't the most important thing in their lives at that time. The ability to make people believe in a better future through hard work -- that seems to be a element that is sadly lacking in the current Republican talking points.

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    8. Re:To hell with those who won't better themselves. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sounds like you have a racist teaching in that school.

    9. Re:To hell with those who won't better themselves. by dwiget001 · · Score: 1

      I agree.

      For the most part, in my experience of teaching 12 year olds and older English as a Second Language students their computer basics (like learning the binary number system and similar things) any one can learn, where the person teaching them cares enough to ensure they get the material and can use it.

      For the most part, this doesn't happen in most of the schooling I received, with the few exceptions of a math and biology teacher. Those two teachers worked very hard to ensure all their students could at least think with the information being imparted, even working with the ones that were lagging to help them get caught up and with the rest of the class. More teachers should be like them.

    10. Re:To hell with those who won't better themselves. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      they're all racist, man!

      From 1-5th grade I was punished for "not putting my name on my homework" or "not putting the date on it" etc etc. You can say "why didn't you learn after the first few times? It turns out that even if I did 5 out of 6 things on the homework, it was "done wrong" and counted as "not being done" which resulted in a call home from me to my mom or dad having to say "I didn't do my homework" while someone listened to my exchange with parents on another phone. So then what happened was my mom said "well you deserve whatever they do to you." Yeah, I'll never forget the look of Mrs. Stark when the receptionist told her those words. Like a wild white woman who had been caught eating human remains after a plain wreck (in case you missed it, she was/is white and I'm not).Yep, 5 years went by before a teacher said something... can you guys guess how her story turned out?

      In Jr High I applied for an 'elite' school (out of 1000 kids taking the entrance exam ~300 enter, less than 200 finished in my generation) and was told by the principle that she couldn't recommend me because "I would make the jr high look bad." Thanks Diane! Out of 3 from my school who made it in, I was one of two that finished. Of the two I received high honors and some other aware I don't care for equally.

      Yeah I'll leave it at that for now. Someday I'll air out my story, but I don't feel comfortable doing so now.

    11. Re:To hell with those who won't better themselves. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mr. Escalante's ghost is going to punch you in your vagina for your disgusting spin.

      I spit on you.

    12. Re:To hell with those who won't better themselves. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Before you "air out your story" again, can you please learn proper English? I'm black and from the ghetto, and even I couldn't understand a fucking thing you just wrote.

    13. Re:To hell with those who won't better themselves. by w_mute · · Score: 1

      Teachers have it tough. Some are threatened by parents because their 'good' kid is failing. Why should not doing homework and failing tests keep the child from passing and moving to the next grade? Until we stop self entitled BS (i.e. suing if kid fails, suing if kid gets removed from class, promoting failed students, etc), schools in the US will never go anywhere but downhill.

    14. Re:To hell with those who won't better themselves. by yurtinus · · Score: 1

      Find me that one ghetto kid who made something big of their life despite parents who weren't around, teachers who didn't care, and friends who had no life goals beyond "don't get stabbed" and you'll find a douchebag liar who doesn't acknowledge the folks who helped them out along the way. Nobody gets ahead completely on their own.

      In this particular case - people can't better themselves when they don't realize what that actually means. When "the good life" is squeaking by without working and still scoring that sweet new iPhone, there's a cultural problem that takes some truly motivated outside influence to fix. This guy showed the kids what they could do, gave them the tools to do it, and then a handful of his students had the motivation to make it work. You could put a teacher like this in many schools and see similar results because you're right - it isn't about the people being stupid. It's about somebody telling them *how* they can improve their situation. Some will take the advice and some won't, but you sure as hell will see better results than insisting everybody figure it out for themselves.

      --
      +1 Disagree
    15. Re:To hell with those who won't better themselves. by TheSync · · Score: 1

      He showed that, by nature, inner city hispanic kids were just as capable at advanced studies as anyone else

      We know that general intelligence (the kind measured by an IQ test) is real. Some people have more than others. And it is partially genetically determined.

      However the important part is that you don't necessarily need an excessively high IQ to learn calculus. Moreover, even in impoverished areas, there are likely some people with higher IQs than others.

    16. Re:To hell with those who won't better themselves. by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 1

      He showed that, by nature, inner city hispanic kids were just as capable at advanced studies as anyone else -- it simply required a mixture of blasting the old nurture ("You'll never be good enough to be something like an engineer, so why don't you just open a restaurant, work construction, or run a shop?") with discipline, attention, expectation, and teaching.

      It also required actually providing the programs to begin with. Let's face it; if your school does not provide the more advanced levels of study in a field, then what is the point for the stuents in studying the lower level ones? If I told you your school would never provide Science classes in the senior cycle, would you spend as much time studying in in the Junior cycle? Or would you invest in a topic you knew you had further opportunity in.

      Interest and passion are all very well, but practicalities come into it too. Teenagers are by no means stupid and even the ones that spend only a few minutes choosing their subjects will be weighing the pros and cons of each.

      --
      May the Maths Be with you!
    17. Re:To hell with those who won't better themselves. by TheLink · · Score: 1

      > he in fact did very much demand that his students take personal initiative

      Which doesn't go with the: "people should just help themselves" concept that the AC was pushing.

      Students did better when Escalante was around than when Escalante wasn't around.

      Therefore Escalante made a difference to students.

      Therefore the AC's statement: "If you don't continually strive to do better on your own, then that's your problem and you should be shunned by everyone who can take a little bit of initiative and learn things on their own." is at odds with what Escalante did.

      A few students can "learn things on their own", but Escalante got entire classes to "learn things on their own".

      Basically a crap/average teacher can just get out of a way and the smart/motivated ones will do well without any other help.

      A good teacher is not good because the smart ones do well, but because the below average or even the worst ones do better than "normal" average. (A good teacher is also good if he/she can influence the smart ones to do amazingly great stuff but that is a different topic ;) ).

      Anyone can make a shiny item shine, just by cleaning and polishing it a bit. Making lumps of charcoal shine on the other hand...

      --
    18. Re:To hell with those who won't better themselves. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To hell with you because you won't voluntarily better yourself.

      Or maybe in your case you're actually stupid.

  4. Yeah haters, this *is* News for Nerds by elrous0 · · Score: 2, Funny

    He was played in a movie by the guy from Blade Runner *and* Battlestar Galactica.

    --
    SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    1. Re:Yeah haters, this *is* News for Nerds by d1r3lnd · · Score: 5, Informative

      Also, some of you might have a passing interest in mathematics.

    2. Re:Yeah haters, this *is* News for Nerds by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

      Oh great. You just made the last line of Blade Runner* run through my head while thinking about Escalante's passing and my eyes teared up. :(

      * Director's cut of course, you theatrical release heathens.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    3. Re:Yeah haters, this *is* News for Nerds by RyuuzakiTetsuya · · Score: 1

      It makes me really sad that these days what qualifies as a geek cares more about dragons and androids than they do derivatives or research.

      --
      Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
    4. Re:Yeah haters, this *is* News for Nerds by rdnetto · · Score: 1

      nerd != geek

      --
      Most human behaviour can be explained in terms of identity.
  5. Public schools by megamerican · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's no wonder he got lots of resistance against his peers, administration and teachers union. Public schools are not about education, its about creating dumbed down automatons who are easily controlled.

    "I don't want a nation of thinkers, I want a nation of workers." - John D. Rockefeller

    --
    If you have something that you dont want anyone to know, maybe you shouldnt be doing it in the first place -Eric Schmidt
    1. Re:Public schools by nomadic · · Score: 0

      It's no wonder he got lots of resistance against his peers, administration and teachers union. Public schools are not about education, its about creating dumbed down automatons who are easily controlled.

      Did you go to public schools? If so it's sad that you consider yourself a dumbed down automaton who is easily controlled. If you didn't, how would you know what public schools are like?

    2. Re:Public schools by spun · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Obviously, the answer to the problem of owning class people gaming the system in their favor is to do away with all government oversight of the owning class, and sell the government to them wholesale. Because, if we had an unregulated free market, all the little mom and pop operations would rise up against their corporate masters and we would immediately have a free and fair market in everything. Obviously, the government is not protecting the little guy from the owning class, they are keeping the little guy down for the owning class.

      But wait, if all that is true, why is it the owning class telling us this? Why are the rich leading the charge to get rid of government regulations? Are they trying to use reverse psychology on us or something?

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    3. Re:Public schools by Kashell · · Score: 1

      I agree with the grandparent, and I went to public schools.

      The teachers were so bad, so unenthusiastic, and the curriculum so dumb, that I decided by my 10th grade year to sleep during school and learn on my own at home.

      Thank god for the internet, or I would have never had the education that I decided to take for myself.

    4. Re:Public schools by edittard · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "I don't want a nation of thinkers, I want a nation of workers." - John D. Rockefeller

      He's still calling the shots, is he? Plutocrats are bad enough, but zombie plutocrats is just going too far.

      --
      At the bottom of the /. main page it says 'Yesterday's News'. Well they got that right.
    5. Re:Public schools by nomadic · · Score: 1

      I went to public schools (and underfunded NYC public schools at that) up to and including university and I received an excellent education.

    6. Re:Public schools by DriedClexler · · Score: 1

      Ah, good to know you can always be counted on to defend the forces that tore down Escalante's progress. Just what I expected.

      (Hint: The ruling class isn't leading the charge to bring meaningful improvements to schools ... just ask Congress.)

      --
      Information theory is life. The rest is just the KL divergence.
    7. Re:Public schools by MarkvW · · Score: 1

      You go too far when you claim that schools are for producing "dumbed down automatons." Nowhere is that a consensus.

      There is a tension. The establishment recognizes that we need brilliant thinkers or our country will be outmatched by others. On the other hand, it wants docile creatures.

      The real problem is that most teachers are useless--in the extreme.

    8. Re:Public schools by ShakaUVM · · Score: 4, Informative

      >>Public schools are not about education, its about creating dumbed down automatons who are easily controlled.

      You know it's funny. I work teaching teachers technology, and I can't recall ever hearing a teacher say they really wished their kids would all be dumbed down automatons. Instead, you hear them all sharing positive stories about a kid that gets engaged with the subject matter and starts thinking on his own. Except for some really burned out teachers, this is pretty much universally true. They ALL want kids interested in a subject, capable of critical and independent thought, and being successful in life (ideally by going to college).

      Now - inter-teacher rivalries and jealousies? Sure, I'll believe in that explanation as to why they undid the program at Garfield. But losing your entire cadre of teachers trained in his method probably had more to do with it than anything.

      The only bit that I will agree with you in this regard is that schools tend to be very socially conservative institutions (by this I don't mean politically conservative, like Republicans, but rather resistant to change). AAA teachers tend to get kicked out of the system. I had Jan Gabay as my English teacher for the 9th and 12th grades - she was Teacher of the Year for the entire country in 1990-something, did a year traveling the country speaking on teaching, went back to Serra High for a couple years, and has since quit public schools to teach at the UC San Diego Charter School.

      I also had Rick Halsey (IIRC, grandson of Admiral Bull Halsey) as a bio an AP Bio teacher, was an amazing teacher who took us into the canyons near the school to study actual plants and animals in the chaparral ecosystem. Every year he took his students on a week-long trip during Spring Break to go kayaking down the Colorado River or hiking in Anza Borrego, etc. He quit because the school was worried he was exposing them to too much liability risk.

      Our system right now is rather dysfunctional. But teachers want kids to succeed - they don't want to produce dumb automatons. It's no longer the 1800s where we need to prep kids for work in the mills - "21st Century Skills" and all that is the current paradigm in education.

    9. Re:Public schools by Nadaka · · Score: 1

      I went to public school. I didn't learn anything in school that I didn't already know until I was at university.

    10. Re:Public schools by spun · · Score: 1

      How am I defending "the forces that tore down Escalante's progress?" I think you suffer from reading comprehension problems.

      Did you miss the quote I was responding to?

      It's no wonder he got lots of resistance against his peers, administration and teachers union. Public schools are not about education, its about creating dumbed down automatons who are easily controlled.

      "I don't want a nation of thinkers, I want a nation of workers." - John D. Rockefeller

      It isn't the government that benefits from churning out uneducated drones, it is the owning class. I never said the owning class was leading the charge to bring meaningful change to schools, I said the opposite. The owning class wants uneducated drones, and they are arrogant enough to come right out and say it.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    11. Re:Public schools by gad_zuki! · · Score: 1

      >Because, if we had an unregulated free market, all the little mom and pop operations would rise up against their corporate masters and we would immediately have a free and fair market in everything.

      Or ,you know, what would actually happen. Big companies would crush these little nobodies by selling with major losses until they go broke or other dirty tricks that are banned by regulation.

      Its hilarious that you believe all regulation exists to further the largest companies and that a free market is a solution to all our economic woes. There's no such thing as a free market, its a fiction that is only able to exists because of government regulation else it becomes fraud and abuse central where only the biggest players win.

    12. Re:Public schools by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's no wonder he got lots of resistance against his peers, administration and teachers union. Public schools are not about education, its about creating dumbed down automatons who are easily controlled.

      "I don't want a nation of thinkers, I want a nation of workers." - John D. Rockefeller

      Yes, that's what really goes on in the halls of power of public schools. Public school officials are totally the loyal minions of the wealthy elite, and care deeply that their beloved masters have a vast lower class of morons to exploit when the kids grow up in 10 or 20 years.

      "Or maybe the system just sucks and you're a hippie conspiracy-mongering idiot." --Me

    13. Re:Public schools by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      I can't recall ever hearing a teacher say they really wished their kids would all be dumbed down automatons.

      So? The "liberal media" is owned by rich white conservative men, yet is portrayed as liberal. There's a difference between what a reporter wants and what the institution wants. He said "public schools" are not about education, but automaton production. Just because the worker on the assembly line doesn't like that doesn't mean it isn't true. There often is a very real difference between those that work for an institution and their ideas (what you mentioned) and the ideas being pushed at the top (what he mentioned). So, your anecdote says nothing at all about his statement.

      Every year he took his students on a week-long trip during Spring Break to go kayaking down the Colorado River or hiking in Anza Borrego, etc. He quit because the school was worried he was exposing them to too much liability risk.

      See, you proved my point. The "teacher" wanted one thing, and the "institution" wanted another, in fact the direct opposite.

    14. Re:Public schools by DriedClexler · · Score: 1

      1) You identify the wrong people as the ruling class.
      2) The quote is from a long time ago; what does it say about what the wealthy want today? Doesn't Bill Gates want smart people for his operations?
      3) You support what the unions did as a response to the exposure of their incompetence and/or malice.

      --
      Information theory is life. The rest is just the KL divergence.
    15. Re:Public schools by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Be careful not to make a classical mistake of confusing the intentions of the parts (teachers, who I agree mostly mean well and want to help kids grow), with the intentions of the whole system (to dumb kids down so they fit into a 19th century militaristic industrial society, like NYS teacher of the year John Taylor Gatto writes about).
          http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/16a.htm
      """
      Before you can reach a point of effectiveness in defending your own children or your principles against the assault of blind social machinery, you have to stop conspiring against yourself by attempting to negotiate with a set of abstract principles and rules which, by its nature, cannot respond. Under all its disguises, that is what institutional schooling is, an abstraction which has escaped its handlers. Nobody can reform it. First you have to realize that human values are the stuff of madness to a system; in systems-logic the schools we have are already the schools the system needs; the only way they could be much improved is to have kids eat, sleep, live, and die there.
          Schools got the way they were at the start of the twentieth century as part of a vast, intensely engineered social revolution in which all major institutions were overhauled to work together in harmonious managerial efficiency. Ours was to be an improvement on the British system, which once depended on a shared upper-class culture for its coherence. Ours would be subject to a rational framework of science, law, instruction, and mathematically derived merit. When Morgan reorganized the American marketplace into a world of cooperating trusts at the end of the nineteenth century, he created a business and financial subsystem to interlink with the subsystem of government, the subsystem of schooling, and other subsystems to regulate every other aspect of national life. None of this was conspiratorial. Each increment was rationally defensible. But the net effect was the destruction of small-town, small-government America, strong families, individual liberty, and a lot of other things people weren't aware they were trading for a regular corporate paycheck.
          A huge price had to be paid for business and government efficiency, a price we still pay in the quality of our existence. Part of what kids gave up was the prospect of being able to read very well, a historic part of the American genius. Instead, school had to train them for their role in the new overarching social system. But spare yourself the agony of thinking of this as a conspiracy. It was and is a fully rational transaction, the very epitome of rationalization engendered by a group of honorable men, all honorable men--but with decisive help from ordinary citizens, from almost all of us as we gradually lost touch with the fact that being followers instead of leaders, becoming consumers in place of producers, rendered us incompletely human. It was a naturally occurring conspiracy, one which required no criminal genius. The real conspirators were ourselves. When we sold our liberty for the promise of automatic security, we became like children in a conspiracy against growing up, sad children who conspire against their own children, consigning them over and over to the denaturing vats of compulsory state factory schooling.
      """

      --
      A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
    16. Re:Public schools by SnarfQuest · · Score: 1, Troll

      It's also about what the schools really want to push:

      If Dick has 4 apples, and Jane has 7 apples, should the factories, owned by greedy evil cigar smoking individuals, spewing out tons of cancer causing toxic greenhouse gases every day, be shut down?

      --
      Who would win this election: Andrew Weiner vs Andrew Weiner's weiner.
    17. Re:Public schools by spun · · Score: 1

      1.) Who do I identify as the owning class?
      2.) It's not from that long ago. And Bill Gates still wants drones. He doesn't want anyone educated to put two and two together. He wants think-drones, who will think about only what he tells them to think about.
      3.) I support what now?

      You need to stop reading things into what I write that simply aren't there. It's obvious that I've impressed you enough for you to remember who I am and what you think my politics are, but you needn't be so threatened. Maybe you should read what I write, and not what the imaginary socialist in your head writes.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    18. Re:Public schools by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 1

      "I don't want a nation of thinkers, I want a nation of workers." - John D. Rockefeller

      Nelson Rockefeller, his grandson, said of his grandfather: "He didn't break any laws . . . but a lot of laws were passed because of what he did."

      For the folks who don't know who John D. Rockefeller was, he was the Bill Gates of the 1800's, but with oil instead of windows.

      --
      Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
    19. Re:Public schools by ShakaUVM · · Score: 1

      >>So? The "liberal media" is owned by rich white conservative men, yet is portrayed as liberal.

      Ted Turner describes himself as a progressive. (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,465124,00.html) So it's both the reporters and the owners.

      Hollywood is profoundly far-left, from top to bottom.

      >>There often is a very real difference between those that work for an institution and their ideas (what you mentioned) and the ideas being pushed at the top (what he mentioned). So, your anecdote says nothing at all about his statement.

      What I said was that teachers are all individually committed to making students independent thinkers, generally speaking. It's not like the situations with reporters and the media. Reporters have an editorial board to report to. Teachers are kings in their own classroom, subject only to pacing guides and state content standards. (And if you are going to try to say that pacing guides and state standards are where the secret zombification of our students is held, I'd recommend reading them some time - they all encourage higher-order thought.)

      >>See, you proved my point. The "teacher" wanted one thing, and the "institution" wanted another, in fact the direct opposite.

      The tallest blade of grass gets cut first.

      As I said in my previous post, schools are socially conservative, and anyone doing anything different tend to either get booted out of the system or quit - and this includes most AAA teachers. This does not mean the schools are trying to turn our kids into robots. Rather, they can't deal with any teachers acting differently.

    20. Re:Public schools by HiThere · · Score: 1

      Before the internet, the public library was an excellent place to find learning...if you wanted to. (I didn't usually, but I did enough of the time, and my very amusements tended to be cerebral, so that didn't matter.)

      Role models are even more important. Fictional ones as well as real ones. I tended to read Tom Swift, the Oz books, and E.E.Smith, which gave me a really weird set of role models, but they were all about people facing problems and dealing with them in a morally responsible manner. (Never mind that Lensmen blew up entire planets full of sentient beings. It was moral. Mentor said so. After I passed into my later teens I started wondering about that. But that had to do with "What is moral?", which is a separate problem from "Are you moral, or just opportunist?")

      P.S.: The lessons taught by the Oz books are considerably different from those taught by the "Wizard of Oz" movie, which I am told I hated even as a child because of the way it mutilated the book. (But I did like the songs.)

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    21. Re:Public schools by Atanamis · · Score: 1

      Most large monopolies only get that way through government coercion, or at the very least cooperation. The large railways were chosen by exclusive government contracts. The large telcos also held exclusive government contracts. Microsoft gained its power by ignoring government rules. The problem is that the "owning class" will always evade or control any rules placed on the market. The "little guy" lacks the resources to do so. Patant law is a good example of this. It is designed to prevent corporations from stealing ideas from the little guy so that he will bring them to market. In reality, they have ended up as a weapon used to prevent the little guy from competing. Government SHOULD prevent fraud and coercion. When it tries to do more though, it often ends up as just the weapon of the owning class against the little guys. A corporation can never force me to pay for their product if I don't want it. Only government can do that. A tax on blank CDs is about as blatant as this can get. The little guy doesn't benefit from imposed fees like that, only the large producer's who benefit whether we want their product or not. Who do you think benefits from the complexity of our tax code? It isn't the little guy. Complexity benefits those who have more money to buy experts. That's who is normally helped by big government.

      --
      Atanamis
    22. Re:Public schools by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It would appear that the most useless teacher in the world was the one who taught you reading comprehension. Or rather should have.

      He wasn't claiming anything, and he said nothing about a consensus - he was
      QUOTING ONE other person.

    23. Re:Public schools by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ignorance and fear make a powerfully self-destructive team. Even even the courage of Mr. Escalante could not hold it back for long. It is amazing what he accomplished in spite of it. The good news about ignorance and fear is that usually gets exploited and destroyed by those with the balls and savvy to manipulate it.

    24. Re:Public schools by HiThere · · Score: 2, Insightful

      But *WHY* are the teachers useless? It's not because the don't care. People entering the teaching profession care more than most, and many who are retiring still care. It's not because they're stupid. I've known and know many teachers.

      Hint: The teachers that I know who are the best teachers have never gone to a University Dept. of Education. Most of them are legally forbidden to teach in a public school. Most of them would be unwilling to even try to operate in that kind of an environment.

      (I'm leaving out the administration. I don't know enough about it. All I know about it is that every good teacher I've known either worked around it or despised it.)

      That said, "best teacher" comes in lots of different modalities. The best music teacher I know refers to another teacher as the best music teacher that she knows "for those who are already well trained at the basics of music, and want to study the piano". Neither of them handle large groups well. One of them can handle boys better than the other. Etc.

      When I went to school the two best teachers that I had taught only a few students in the class, and essentially babysat the others. (Even that was distracting.) Other teachers gave generalized instruction to the entire class, which left half the class bored and the other half confused.

      Part of the problem was that class sizes were far too large. 30 is unreasonable for primary, and most secondary instruction. A study I once say claimed that in the high school years there was a definite break in the amount of learning that occurred between class sizes of 16 and 19. (With the students in the class with 16 students learning a lot more.) Could be. I suspect that it varies a lot with class composition AND subject. Many college classes seem to do quite well with 20 or more students, at least as long as there are smaller sections. (But I'm not convinced that a class size of 300 is ever better than a video. Perhaps the video should be shown during the section meetings? And stopped and re-run with detailed explanations from the TA whenever things got confusing to someone.)

      Note, by the way, that college professors have almost never gotten a degree from the dept. of Education. Some are very bad teachers, but more of them are good teachers than is common among the earlier grades.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    25. Re:Public schools by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Ted Turner describes himself as a progressive.

      And I've met people that describe themselves as Jesus Christ. Doesn't make it true.

      What I said was that teachers are all individually committed to making students independent thinkers, generally speaking.

      And I said that was a non sequitur when the issue at hand was whether the school system was committed to making students independent thinkers.

      anyone doing anything different tend to either get booted out of the system or quit [... because the schools] can't deal with any teachers acting differently.

      Whether they are anti-education or pro-education in an anti-education way, the result is the same. Mediocre teachers are the ideal. Mediocre teachers don't do as good a job at educating. And so the schools actively work to reduce the level of education received by the children through elimination of exceptional teachers. You just keep agreeing with me on every point, time and time again, but in the most disagreeable manner. (well, you could argue they want "exceptional" teachers, but the metric for measuring that is exceptional adherence to poor standards, rather than any elevation of the students)

    26. Re:Public schools by spun · · Score: 1

      Economic coercion is just as real as physical coercion. Collusion between big players will exist with or without government. Beyond a certain amount necessary for survival and personal freedom, money is a measure of control over other people's lives. A corporation can force you do whatever it likes, in the absence of government protection. For instance, it can force you to breath filth and eat poison.

      The ruling class will collude with each other to coerce us into laboring for them as cheaply as possible. Sure, they can use the government against us, if we let them. But the answer to that problem is to stop letting them, not to do away with government, which is the only real protection the poor have from coercion by the rich.

      The purpose of government is to enact and protect the freedoms its citizenry desire. Certainly, freedom from fraud and coercion is a freedom worth protecting. But what is coercion? If men are starving, most will do nearly anything for food. Saying, "Starve or be a slave" is coercion. A social safety net provides freedom from economic coercion, and I for one feel that is a freedom worth protecting. Regulations on workplace safety, child labor, and nondiscrimination also protect citizens from fraud and coercion. I also value a clean environment, dumping your crap and expecting me to deal with the consequences is coercion.

      In short, yes, I agree. The government's job is to prevent fraud and coercion. You and I just differ as to how we define coercion, and how far we think the government should go in protecting against it.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    27. Re:Public schools by DriedClexler · · Score: 1

      And Bill Gates still wants drones. He doesn't want anyone educated to put two and two together.

      So where's the damning proof for him, smarty? You did great with the damning age-old quote from Rockefeller, but Bill Gates, um, yeah, he's just a bad guy, so um, obviuosly, it follows that he just wants dumb-dumbs, duh, how could we dumb-dumbs not see this? (And we should still support the teachers' unions, right?)

      --
      Information theory is life. The rest is just the KL divergence.
    28. Re:Public schools by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Arguably, Rockefeller's quote was probably out of context. Take a look at cable news and its endless bobblehead analysis and opinion to see what you get with a preponderance of so-called "thinkers". The root causes of anti-intellectualism will be made quite clear after listening to these wankers yammer away hour after hour, day after day.

      There's real thinkers who call themselves workers, and there's those who loudly declaim themselves as thinkers. Me? I'm just another asshole with an opinion who's just not polished enough to get his own cable news show.

    29. Re:Public schools by sheph · · Score: 1

      Amen!!! I dropped out in 11th and finished on home study for much the same reason. I felt like I wasn't learning anything anyway so why bother. I finished a year and a half worth of work in four months teaching myself. While it's a sad commentary on the public school system it's one more shining example of what you get when the government runs something. I shudder to think what health care is going to be like in 10 years.

      --
      I don't believe in karma, I just call it like I see it.
    30. Re:Public schools by spun · · Score: 1

      If anyone working for Bill could actually think for themselves, they wouldn't be working for Bill. The fact that Bill pushed so hard for H1-B visas and other measures designed to destroy the American worker proves he is no friend of the working class, and only interested in exploitation, like all owning class tyrants.

      But who said anything about supporting teacher's unions?

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    31. Re:Public schools by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      While it's a sad commentary on the public school system it's one more shining example of what you get when the government runs something. I shudder to think what health care is going to be like in 10 years.

      Governments in European socialist countries run the health care systems there, and they seem to be doing just fine.

      The problem is that the American government can't run anything without it being a disaster, because it's so corrupt.

    32. Re:Public schools by Bob-taro · · Score: 1

      If anyone working for Bill could actually think for themselves, they wouldn't be working for Bill.

      I guess everyone who thinks for themselves thinks the same as you.

      --
      Prov 9:8 Do not rebuke mockers or they will hate you; rebuke the wise and they will love you.
    33. Re:Public schools by spun · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If anyone working for Bill could actually think for themselves, they wouldn't be working for Bill.

      I guess everyone who thinks for themselves thinks the same as you.

      Of course not, but if they could think for themselves, they would see they are getting reamed working for a sociopath who produces inferior products and survives by being the most brutal, underhanded, and duplicitous fucker in the business. If his workers could think for themselves, they would see that they could do better NOT working for such a sociopath. But our public schools teach kids to kowtow to authority, not to question their 'betters,' and not to rock the boat.

      But more importantly, people who can actually think for themselves (and are not sociopaths) participate as little as possible in a system that debases the working class who actually create all value, while raising the owning class up to the level of near godhood. Why would anyone work against their own interests participating in a system that enslaves them to owning class sociopaths?

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    34. Re:Public schools by PSandusky · · Score: 1

      I went to the public schools, and I have to say I got a lot of my "public school" education by doing whatever I could to stay out of the rank and file offerings my school presented. I found great benefit in becoming a perennial pain in the ass any time some new program was starting, or a teacher had a course I wanted but wouldn't be able to take because of scheduling red tape. Most of the really memorable things I did in high school came from stepping off that beaten path.

      I remember taking Anat&Phys independently, and when the instructor told me I should probably get around to doing a dissection before the end of the year, she sent me home with a specimen and a dissecting bucket. My kitchen table top sheep brain dissection stopped my sister from making a late night batch of macaroni and cheese.

      I remember staying up late into the night to watch a videotape loaded with classes from KET's Humanities through the Arts course. My school had elected to offer these distance learning courses via satellite, but they didn't guarantee real-time attendance or scheduling. I didn't care -- every day I would swap a tape so I could spend the late night hours watching another few hours of class. I had a blast.

      When the satellite was still new and my school strove to schedule students for its appropriate use (watching the class live and interacting via telephone audio bridge -- the tech people had not yet overcome their fear of telepresence and its earlier forms), I took two years of Japanese. The schedule ended up falling out such that I took English, Japanese, and French, all in a row. My teachers deferred when I explained that I wasn't thinking answers in the languages they wanted.

      On the other hand, I remember a particular instance where a teacher did not want to provide the instruction he claimed he'd give. My junior high science teacher, a twit I could count on to spend most of the class period talking to his niece in the seat in front of mine, told me I could show him whatever odd items I wanted and do enrichment work on whatever interested me. One day I took in the Instructor's Manual for Star Trek: Federation Science and pointed out a few items that I wanted to do. He flipped through the book and handed it back -- he didn't support anything, and I didn't get to use any of his resources to do my exploring. I never bothered with him after that, and I don't remember anything he taught me, except what makes an ineffective teacher and what makes an ineffective teacher exponentially worse. Thankfully, the high school science teachers (my A&P teacher being one) were far superior. I owe a lot to them.

      The upshot of this is that I derived more benefit from striving to go outside of the mainstream educational offerings when I was in school. What I could do, I did. I went to the math competition. I went to the library weekly. When I could, I visited the science center or natural history museum. I grokked Discovery and PBS the way other students thrived on teeny bopper crap and Sports Illustrated. Were I to rely strictly on what the school wanted to follow as the path of least resistance, I wouldn't have gained much of anything, and I'd be quite the drone now.

      --
      "What's the use in being grown up if you can't be childish sometimes?" --Fourth Doctor, "Robot"
    35. Re:Public schools by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      From the reason article: "....had the janitor who objected to Escalante's early-bird ways been more influential, America's greatest math teacher might just now be retiring from Unisys."

      When a janitor determines the fate of a nation's top math education program, you know the system is fucked.

    36. Re:Public schools by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Most large monopolies only get that way through government coercion, or at the very least cooperation.

      Not true. In a completely free market, monopolies and oligopolies would still naturally arise over time; successful companies tend to grow larger, and then their success become self-perpetuating: as they get bigger, they can exploit economies of scale than smaller competitors cannot, and also as they grow larger, the less damage any bad decision will cause, as they have more inertia.

      This is why it's government's job to serve as a check against the power of corporations, and make sure they can't grow large enough to have too much influence over the government, and also to ensure that new competitors are able to compete fairly against them.

    37. Re:Public schools by ShakaUVM · · Score: 1

      >>And I've met people that describe themselves as Jesus Christ. Doesn't make it true.

      So Ted Turner is a rich white conservative that goes around calling himself a progressive, admiring Castro, and serving on boards of left wing organizations. Do you have a secret tap into his mind or something?

      >>Whether they are anti-education or pro-education in an anti-education way, the result is the same.

      I didn't say they were anti-education. I said the system doesn't work well for our best teachers, who tend to be creative outside of the box thinkers. I understand what you're saying, but it's like saying that Microsoft is anti-technology, because they don't like outside of the box thinkers at Microsoft. (Which isn't exactly true, but I digress.) Sure, it's true that they eliminate AAA talent, but it doesn't mean that they don't make technology, or are anti-technology, or whatever. Schools are all trying to make kids as smart as possible (contrary to your thesis) - they just don't deal well with mavericks.

      So you'd think that his crazy notion about building an Open Door Policy at the school site (contrary to the elitist Gatekeeper notion of AP classes, which says only smartest kids should take AP classes) would have vanished. To the contrary... from 2004-2008 I worked on an AP Incentive Program in San Diego County, one of whose primary goals was requiring all school sites to adopt Open Door Policies, to train counselors to stop blocking kids from enrolling in AP classes, and to get people to stop worrying so much about their "Pass Rate" on AP tests. It was very successful, and this was the influence of Jaime Escalante (may he rest in peace) still permeating to schools after all these years, 20-30 years later. (As I said, schools are very socially conservative.)

      Side note: If you read the story about Jaime Escalante, it was the Teachers Union as much as anything that forced him out, because his program was TOO successful. Class sizes were too big, and so the Union "helpfully" stopped him from teaching. There's a lot of problems like this with our school system, don't get me wrong, but schools wanting their kids to become automatons is not one of them.

    38. Re:Public schools by yurtinus · · Score: 1

      Easier to reply to you than repeat you, pretty spot on. Most of this reply is regarding public education rather than post-secondary.

      I am curious how many people posting in this thread actually *know* any teachers, either a friend or family member that teaches or one of your own teachers. You can't get to know a teacher if you classify them all as the enemy trying to control your mind. There are good teachers out there-- a lot of them. Maybe not as many of them as the bad ones, but they're out there. Not many people notice because they are hampered by administrative rules, students who despise the profession in general, and a society which simply doesn't care. They notice the off-kilter kids in class who are very bright but simply "don't fit in." They talk about you with the other teachers and really hope you don't get buried by the system. Unfortunately most of them aren't ballsy enough to go against the administration.

      Education is a two way street. Students give up on good teachers all the time and it's most often because the bad ones made them dislike all teachers. Complaints about university education departments are right on - that and school administrations make it *considerably* more difficult to be a good teacher in a public school.

      Full disclosure - while I'm not an educator, I come from a family which is half teachers. I consider half of them to be really good at it.

      --
      +1 Disagree
    39. Re:Public schools by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

      He's still calling the shots, is he? Plutocrats are bad enough, but zombie plutocrats is just going too far.

      But undead Plutocrats are the only kind that can survive in the vacuum of space long enough to get to earth!

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    40. Re:Public schools by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      So Ted Turner is a rich white conservative that goes around calling himself a progressive, admiring Castro, and serving on boards of left wing organizations.

      I never said what he was, just that announcing one thing doesn't make it so. In fact, if you have to state it publicly, it's probably because you aren't what you claim to be, else no one would have asked.

      That and Castro is a capitalist, it's just that he owns all the capital. There's no difference between a fascist dictatorship, a communist country, or capitalism when the people that own the means to production run the government. So to hold up the communist dictatorships as communists is like holding up Mars as the ideal for capitalism because there are no regulations. It might sound good on paper, but when you look at it, it's absurd.

      Side note: If you read the story about Jaime Escalante, it was the Teachers Union as much as anything that forced him out, because his program was TOO successful.

      I'm confused. Are you offering that to agree with me or disagree with me? Because it's exactly what I said. The institution is anti-education even if every individual member of it is pro-education. It's the same as drug reform. Based on the statistics of how many people have tried illegal drugs, the vast majority of people voting to keep drugs illegal have used illegal drugs without incident. So, they are voting for laws that are aimed to directly harm people exactly like them when they don't even believe what they did was wrong.

      I never claimed people (or institutions) are sane. I just call 'em as I see 'em.

    41. Re:Public schools by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But "public schools" = the system, not the teachers. Teachers are human beings and always want to teach their students, across time and space. It's not the teachers, but the system, that allows the petty squabbles to overrule merit and turns out automata.

      And the system really *is* from the Industrial Revolution, and still works as intended. It's easy to fit the (almost) universally good intensions of teachers into the system, because the line between adequate classroom discipline and soul-crushing, arbitrary institutionalism is finer than it sounds.

    42. Re:Public schools by ajlisows · · Score: 1

      I have to agree with you. I know several teachers and the performance of their students seems to have a direct effect on their general mood. If they have students that are getting the material and pushing themselves to learn more, the teachers are happy outside of work. When they get a batch of kids that don't give a shit about their education, the teachers seem down to the point of depression and talk about going back to school to get their PhD so they can teach college where people might be interested in the material. I never once heard a single one of them say "Gee, I wish my students were mindless automatons."

      I'm sure there are plenty of teachers who just don't give a damn. There are plenty of developers like that. And Network Admins. And Drill Press Operators. And Accountants. Every profession is going to have that group that hates their field and does a mediocre to poor job because of it. The school I went to had a mix of both. The core science teachers they had were absolutely ridiculous in their desire to do a good job. My class happened to have a decent number of advanced individuals, so they set up new AP classes for Chemistry, Physics, and Biology. We tore through those as juniors so the teachers sat down and developed a THIRD year of those three subjects for the handful of us that were interested. We were assigned a pretty intensive research paper and they took us on "Field Trips" to college libraries to do research. They got us involved in science/math type competitions which they sacrificed nights and weekends to take us to. The Biology teacher would take us out to a nearby park to show us what we were learning about. It was fantastic. I left high school with knowledge well beyond the first two semesters of college Zoology, college chem, and college physics.

    43. Re:Public schools by ShakaUVM · · Score: 1

      >>When they get a batch of kids that don't give a shit about their education, the teachers seem down to the point of depression and talk about going back to school to get their PhD so they can teach college where people might be interested in the material.

      Heh, yeah. My college roommate has been a high school math teacher for the last four years, and just last week quit so that he could go back to college so that he could get a master's and teach at a local community college, because none of the kids in his classes cared. He burned out.

      But somehow I think your (and mine) personal experiences will convince the slashdotters on here that teachers (or the "system" or something) have set out to turn our kids into robots. Some conspiracy theory teacher named Gatto has said so on the internets, so it must be true.

    44. Re:Public schools by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Workers of the world, unite! You have nothing to lose but your braiiiiinzzz.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  6. Shining Example by Jaysyn · · Score: 1, Insightful

    This is a shining example of how politics are ruining America's youth.

    --
    There is a war going on for your mind.
    1. Re:Shining Example by maxume · · Score: 2, Informative

      Maybe a good place to spell out what you are talking about, rather than relying on "this".

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    2. Re:Shining Example by Snap+E+Tom · · Score: 1

      Did you know that Californians, on average, have the 3rd lowest IQ in the country? Only Louisiana and Mississippi have lower average IQs than California.

      When I read stories like this one about post-Escalante Garfield, I'm not surprised.

    3. Re:Shining Example by Rebelgecko · · Score: 1

      Would you mind showing the source for that data? Just curious

      --
      CATS/Diebold '08- All your vote are belong to us!
    4. Re:Shining Example by Snap+E+Tom · · Score: 1

      http://www.heavingdeadcats.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/religiousness-breakdown.png

      Citations at the bottom.

      IQ's citation goes to a page on top50states.com which cites a Morgan Quitno study and describes the methodology that gave the score. Although the chart shows California in a 4-way tie for third worst, the citation breaks down the score into tenths, and has California as third worst.

    5. Re:Shining Example by Jaysyn · · Score: 1

      Or you could try reading the fucking article.

      --
      There is a war going on for your mind.
    6. Re:Shining Example by maxume · · Score: 1

      Breath deep there captain.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    7. Re:Shining Example by frosty_tsm · · Score: 1

      Would you mind showing the source for that data? Just curious

      I second that. I remember a statistic that CA's students were ranked 3rd from last (we also almost last in education spending), but IQ is different.

    8. Re:Shining Example by Jaysyn · · Score: 1

      It's breathe you philistine. :D

      --
      There is a war going on for your mind.
    9. Re:Shining Example by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Source?

    10. Re:Shining Example by Calithulu · · Score: 1

      I suggest you check (or at least list) your sources. There has been a long running internet hoax regarding this exact topic.

      The best source I have makes a good faith attempt to estimate average IQs by state from SAT and ACT scores. However, as you can imagine that isn't exactly definitive. It also lists the methodology for how the results were arrived at.

      The original numbers, made by someone trying to claim that states that vote for one political party over another are smarter (in this case liberals though I've heard of conservative claims as well), has been debunked repeatedly. Frankly, it is a sad state of affairs when people have to make up lies in order to further their political or ideological viewpoint.

      If you're interested, the US Census keeps records on education attainment level by ethnicity as well.

    11. Re:Shining Example by Calithulu · · Score: 1

      Ok, disregard my request for sources earlier. I'd just like to list the methodology used:

      1. Public Elementary and Secondary School Revenue per $1,000 personal Income 2. Percent of Public Elementary and Secondary School Current Expenditures used for Instruction 3. Percent of Population Graduated from High School 4. Averaged Freshman Graduation Rate for Public High Schools 5. Percent of Public School 4th Graders Proficient or Better in Reading 6. Percent of Public School 8th Graders Proficient or Better in Reading 7. Percent of Public School 4th Graders Proficient or Better in Writing 8. Percent of Public School 8th Graders Proficient or Better in Writing 9. Percent of Public School 4th Graders Proficient or Better in Math 10. Percent of Public School 8th Graders Proficient or Better in Math 11. Average Teacher Salary as a Percent of Average Annual Pay of All Workers 12. Average Daily Attendance as a Percent of Fall Enrollment in Public Elementary and Secondary Schools 13. Percent of School-Age Population in Public Schools 14. High School Drop Out Rate 15. Special Education Pupil-Teacher Ratio 16. Percent of Public Elementary and Secondary School Staff Who are School District Administrators 17. Average Class Size in Public Elementary Schools 18. Average Class Size in Public Secondary Schools 19. Median Pupil-Teacher Ratio in Public Primary Schools 20. Median Pupil-Teacher Ratio in Public Middle Schools 21. Median Pupil-Teacher Ratio in Public High Schools

      While I agree that these do show some level of the state of education in these states, it really doesn't demonstrate any IQ score. Most of it seems to be based on class sizes and student to teach ratios. Really, all I'd use from this study (which is never actually linked) is points 4 through 10.

  7. Jesse Jackson was wrong by BadAnalogyGuy · · Score: 2, Funny

    East Los Angeles, not New York, was the real Jaime-town.

  8. American Education by JerLasVegas · · Score: 1

    Of course they got rid of him! How dare the poorer class schools be able to progress!

    1. Re:American Education by Shotgun · · Score: 1

      How dare he create the expectation that teachers who claim to be "professionals" should be held to a standard of actually producing results. We can't have that, and unions are there specifically to make sure that it doesn't happen.

      --
      Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
      Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
    2. Re:American Education by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wouldn't say *specifically* but it does seem to be one unfortunate result.

  9. Why I still think we need vouchers by 5pp000 · · Score: 4, Insightful
    From TFA:

    Gradillas has an explanation for the decline of A.P. calculus at Garfield: Escalante and Villavicencio were not allowed to run the program they had created on their own terms. In his phrase, the teachers no longer "owned" their program. He's speaking metaphorically, but there's something to be said for taking him literally.

    In the real world, those who provide a service can usually find a way to get it to those who want it, even if their current employer disapproves. If someone feels that he can build a better mousetrap than his employer wants to make, he can find a way to make it, market it, and perhaps put his former boss out of business. Public school teachers lack that option.

    There are very few ways to compete for education dollars without being part of the government school system. If that system is inflexible, sooner or later even excellent programs will run into obstacles.

    I've never understood why the left, which has supported the idea of a single-payer health care system, can't get its head around vouchers, which amount to a single-payer education system. No, a voucher system isn't perfect; yes, there will be abuses. But look at the ongoing train wreck of a system we have now!

    In a voucher system, Jaime Escalante would have been massively successful, probably at the top of an organization teaching thousands of students. So what if some fundamentalists use their vouchers to send their kids to religious schools? Vouchers would finally give us a way to end the culture of mediocrity that has such a death grip on our schools now.

    --
    Your god may be dead, but mine aren't!
    1. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by nweaver · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Because vouchers in general are not about school choice, but a means of forcing taxpayers to pay for religious education: subsidizing those who already send their children to parochial schools. If voucher programs exclude religious schools, there would be no schools to send the children to.

      Also, vouchers don't cover the whole cost: Mr Escalante couldn't do what he did in a private school as, even with vouchers, the students couldn't afford to attend.

      --
      Test your net with Netalyzr
    2. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by pluther · · Score: 5, Interesting

      As a leftist extremist, I've never been able to understand it either.

      When I was volunteering at the Obama campaign office, this was probably my second biggest argument with most of my fellow workers, after nuclear power.

      There have been some very bad voucher schemes proposed, which amount to nothing more than yet another tax break for wealthy people while shifting the burden to the poor.

      But there have also been some good voucher schemes proposed. Something that would let parents send their children to any school, public or private, that they wanted, would be awesome. Something that would actually reduce the cost of expensive private schools for those who can't afford it would be great.

      Getting the fundamentalist nutjobs out of the public schools and into their own little inbred communities where they can't do any harm to the rest of society would just be a bonus, as far as I'm concerned.

      --
      If the masses can keep you down, you're not the Ubermensch.
    3. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

      I agree with you about vouchers. I think Charter schools are a reasonable compromise, so it is appropriate for Obama to push for those. The problem current problem with Charter Schools is that it requires the same school district personnel whose jobs are threatened by the success of charters schools to approve any new schools. Strangely enough, the Beaverton School District has steadfastly opposed ANY charter schools within the district. "Politics" and "Conflict of Interests" appear to be interchangible words these days.

      P.S. I went to a Catholic High Schools as a non-Catholic, and my kid sisters were home schooled. I heartily recommend both as alternatives to public school education. Escalante should have taken his passion to a private school, where he could recruit willing students from all over LA (private school don't need to worry about arbitrary district boundaries). He could have had an even greater impact without having to fight an entrenched bureaucracy every step of the way.

      In Escalante's memory, I say we all start petition drives to name one of our local schools after him -- it seems the most fitting tribute to this great man.

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    4. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by sean_nestor · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I've never understood why the left, which has supported the idea of a single-payer health care system, can't get its head around vouchers, which amount to a single-payer education system. No, a voucher system isn't perfect; yes, there will be abuses. But look at the ongoing train wreck of a system we have now!

      In a voucher system, Jaime Escalante would have been massively successful, probably at the top of an organization teaching thousands of students. So what if some fundamentalists use their vouchers to send their kids to religious schools? Vouchers would finally give us a way to end the culture of mediocrity that has such a death grip on our schools now.

      Chiefly because exposing school systems to a competitive market implicitly accepts that some schools will fall into even worse decay that they currently are. Poor schools become poorer, with little funding to hire better teachers or acquire better books.

      As schools are not objects which can house an infinite number of students, some students will be forced to attend those schools caught in that downward spiral - schools that are not only sub-par, but lacking funding and interaction with a diverse body of students, since all the brightest have made it into the "nice" schools.

      When you consider that some students are going to be shafted big time by this arrangement, you may see why some (not just on the left) don't like the voucher system. Education after 18 is no longer compulsory, so good luck compensating for those all-important developmental years of education.

    5. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by MindlessAutomata · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's ultimately about controlling the ideas that youth are exposed to. Sure, children may be sent to some pretty wrong-headed schools with these vouchers... but the parents, and eventually the child, presumably are taxpayers.

      It's all about social control. The left is concerned (rightfully) about children being taught anti-evolution, racist, religious bullshit, but it's more than that. It's about instilling social, democratic values into youth. The right tends to feel that vouchers/homeschooling are a good way to shaping youth, the left, as always prefers to "socialize" (in the "society") sense of the word and wants to build a "community" and by extension obedience to community standards and norms, even if they have to force community's down people's throat like the right wants to force religion on other people.

    6. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by asolidvoid · · Score: 1

      I'm not very familiar with how a voucher system would work, so let me know if I'm off base, but in your example—wouldn't it still keep him from providing adequate service to underprivileged hispanic youth, since he's so good at what he does—everyone in LA would want their kids to be taught by him, diluting his impact on the community that needs it (and presumably he would have wanted to serve) most?

    7. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by 5pp000 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Chiefly because exposing school systems to a competitive market implicitly accepts that some schools will fall into even worse decay that they currently are. Poor schools become poorer, with little funding to hire better teachers or acquire better books.

      As schools are not objects which can house an infinite number of students, some students will be forced to attend those schools caught in that downward spiral

      This doesn't make any sense. There's no limit on the number of schools that can be created. Vouchers make it easier for parents to remove their children from failing schools and put them in better ones. Poorly run schools will quickly lose all their students and shut down. It's the current system that keeps failing schools in operation, not a voucher system!

      --
      Your god may be dead, but mine aren't!
    8. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      I've never understood why the left, which has supported the idea of a single-payer health care system, can't get its head around vouchers, which amount to a single-payer education system.

      Because their end goal is a single provider health care system for everybody but the elite, just like they already have for education (for the most part).

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    9. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by Fujisawa+Sensei · · Score: 1

      Getting the fundamentalist nutjobs out of the public schools and into their own little inbred communities where they can't do any harm to the rest of society would just be a bonus, as far as I'm concerned.

      They already have this, its called home schooling.

      --
      If someone is passing you on the right, you are an asshole for driving in the wrong lane.
    10. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by istartedi · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I've never understood why the left

      Union, unions, UNIONS! vs. Blacks!

      Yes, it's one of the issues that tears at the fabric of two core Democratic Party groups. I've seen polls [citation needed] where the majority of Blacks support vouchers. Many of their communities are strongly religious, and that tends to be part of the reason for the support. Unions, OTOH, know that many of those small, diverse, competing schools won't sign a contract.

      So far, Union money beats Black desire in the Democratic Party.

      Said before, and said again, no real progress in the USA until we break the shackles of entrenched special interests on both the Left and the Right.

      --
      For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
    11. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by rsborg · · Score: 1

      As a leftist extremist...Something that would actually reduce the cost of expensive private schools for those who can't afford it would be great.

      Explain to me how this is a "leftist extremist" point of view. Something about what you claim to be and what you support is not jiving. The only "extreme" point of view you're supporting here is that you believe private schools should be subsidized by the government (without all the burdensome "regulations" and "mandated enrollment" that public schools are stuck with). So as a taxpayer I get to pay for an institution that could deny my kid attendance arbitrarily?

      --
      Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
    12. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by sean_nestor · · Score: 5, Informative

      This doesn't make any sense. There's no limit on the number of schools that can be created. Vouchers make it easier for parents to remove their children from failing schools and put them in better ones. Poorly run schools will quickly lose all their students and shut down. It's the current system that keeps failing schools in operation, not a voucher system!

      Schools do not just appear. They take a great deal of financing and legal paperwork. Your dream of grassroots school systems sprouting up is fantastically misguided.

      Yes, vouchers help some parents place their students into better schools. Undoubtedly. But what you are breezing over is the effect this has on the other students who aren't quite so lucky. When considering educational models, you need to give attention to all students - not just the bright ones. The squeaky wheel gets the grease, and all that. That is where vouchers fail.

    13. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by DesScorp · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Because vouchers in general are not about school choice, but a means of forcing taxpayers to pay for religious education

      You seem terrified that a parent might send their kids to a church-affiliated school "with tax dollars"... when most parents are contributing to those tax dollars. As long as the school is accredited, so what? Some of the finest schools in the country are church-affiliated, especially Catholic schools. I'm not Catholic myself, but between an inter-city public school and a Catholic school in the same area, I'd damn sure take the Catholic school.

      --
      Life is hard, and the world is cruel
    14. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by twoallbeefpatties · · Score: 1

      Much for the same reason I don't support the privatization of our police forces, fire response, safety inspections, military, city planning, and other social services. Just because things are bad now doesn't mean you can't screw them up worse by putting them into for-profit hands.

      --
      Libertarians somehow believe that private businesses should be stronger than governments but weaker than individuals.
    15. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem is that 'school voucher' is nothing but a right-wing code word for subsidized religious education. I don't want my tax dollars funding the evangelical Christian equivalent of an Islamic madrassa. I want students to learn about actual science, and not the fairy tale-based version that school voucher funded religious schools would teach.

      On the other hand, teacher's unions are doing way more harm than good when it comes to providing quality eduction. Strong teacher accountability (with real consequences for failing to perform) is the solution to the problem, not paying for kids to learn science from the Bible.

    16. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by phantomfive · · Score: 2, Interesting

      some students will be forced to attend those schools caught in that downward spiral

      It's not like these schools are so great, some of them in the inner city have pretty much hit the bottom of the downward spiral, they really can't get much worse. The kids are already forced into those kinds of schools, with the system as it is now they have no real option to go somewhere else. At least with vouchers they will have the choice to attend a different school if they want to. Besides, if a school is really that bad, it should be shut down, and something else put in its place.

      I'll tell you the real reason Democrats are against vouchers, and to find out, you have to follow the money. Teachers unions are big donors to democrats, and teachers unions are opposed to voucher systems. The problem with teachers unions is that they are mostly interested in making life as good as possible for the teachers (as a union should), but they shouldn't be driving policy because school policy should be driven by what is best for the students.

      --
      Qxe4
    17. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by 5pp000 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Schools do not just appear. They take a great deal of financing and legal paperwork. Your dream of grassroots school systems sprouting up is fantastically misguided.

      The existence and history of the homeschooling movement indicates very much to the contrary. What is a homeschooling household, but a grassroots school sprouted up around a single family? A properly designed voucher system would encourage groups of parents, when they feel they have no better alternative, to homeschool their kids together. That's a school! The vouchers would help with the cost of educational materials, and what more is needed?

      You seem to have absorbed the idea that education is something that comes only from large institutions. The truth is, education is a thoroughly individual activity that requires nothing but access to information and to people who already understand that information. In this Internet age, those things are more readily available than ever.

      --
      Your god may be dead, but mine aren't!
    18. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by Bakkster · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Because vouchers in general are not about school choice, but a means of forcing taxpayers to pay for religious education: subsidizing those who already send their children to parochial schools.

      The easy solution to that problem: the voucher can only pay for the non-religious portion of any classes. So if the student takes 6 classes with 2 being religious (theology, and I'll even give you science) and 4 being secular (music, math, literature, history), then the voucher can't cover more than 66% of the cost of tuition.

      Any opposition to that based purely on the school rules and code of conduct being based on the attendee's religion is just as silly and petty as those who oppose public schools purely because their code of conduct is purely secular, if not more-so. The primary reason to send children to parochial schools is for the code of conduct and atmosphere, rather than to replace pointless secular elective classes with (arguably equally pointless) religious studies. Of course, this doesn't always happen (there ends up being drug use and teen sex at parochial schools as well), but it seems a reasonable desire.

      It's also disingenuous to imply that the only private schools worth sending children to are parochial. They may be the most common, but they aren't the only ones. Vouchers would also encourage more of them, particularly since a well-run secular private-school could be free, while using the rule above would mean parochial schools would still cost money.

      --
      Write your representatives! Repeal the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics!
    19. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by corbettw · · Score: 1

      Wow, you hit all the teachers unions talking points in that one.

      1) Vouchers are absolutely about school choice. It's about giving parents the choice of which school to go to.

      2) Vouchers have nothing to do with forcing taxpayers to do anything. They're about giving parents the power to say "My kid is not being well served by this school, so I'm going to send him to this other one."

      3) A properly-run voucher system would pay the same amount that public schools get for each student, which would be more than enough for the kids to go to a privately run school of their parents' choice.

      Besides which, who cares if a religious school gets money from something like this as long as they meet the accreditation that all other schools must? Do you honestly think the world would collapse if religious schools received a penny of voucher money?

      --
      God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
    20. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      So as a taxpayer I get to pay for an institution that could deny my kid attendance arbitrarily?

      You are assuming facts not in evidence. I'm a leftist extremist too, and I'm all for vouchers. They just need a couple conditions. Any school that takes a voucher must accept vouchers as payment in full for all services (including anything required, such as lab fees, uniforms, lunches, etc.). Any school that takes a voucher must accept any and all students that apply. Any school that takes a voucher can not expel a student for any reason other than conviction of a violent act committed on school grounds or at an official school function.

      With just those three little rules to make schools that take vouchers more in line with public schools, I'd support them 100%. Any less, and you'll just be creating a tax break for the rich that are already sending their children to private schools and want subsidies, and you'll be doing so in a manner calculated to harm the public schools. The Republicans have, in my opinion, been purposefully targeting the public schools for harm. Unfunded bad mandates, like NCLB, the push for voucher systems written to have "competition" designed to drain the public schools of funding, and other such things they claim are good for the people and the country but seem like nothing other than attacks to me. At least the Democrats seem to be trying to do good while they damage the schools.

    21. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by corbettw · · Score: 1

      Getting the fundamentalist nutjobs out of the public schools and into their own little inbred communities where they can't do any harm to the rest of society would just be a bonus, as far as I'm concerned.

      Well said. As a parent with kids in elementary and middle school in North Texas, I'd be thrilled to be able to send my kids to a private school with a completely areligious curriculum. As it is, I have to make sure my kids understand that there's no Invisible Sky Wizard and that their teachers are completely wrong (and quite possibly insane) if they suggest there is. Then of course I have to call and complain to the principal and school board offices (again), even though that does absolutely nothing.

      *sigh* At least the kids are getting an early lesson on why you can't just blindly trust what authority has to say but you have to make them prove their assertions along with everyone else.

      --
      God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
    22. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by corbettw · · Score: 1

      As schools are not objects which can house an infinite number of students, some students will be forced to attend those schools caught in that downward spiral - schools that are not only sub-par, but lacking funding and interaction with a diverse body of students, since all the brightest have made it into the "nice" schools.

      Spoken like someone who truly does not understand the law of supply and demand. If there are students (or more accurately, parents) demanding good schools, and money is available, then entrepreneurs will fill the gap. There won't be any failing schools, because crappy teachers will get fired.

      Here's an example: know what happens when the local Montessori school gets too full and can't accept more students? The same thing that happens when the lines get too long at the corner gas station: a competitor opens up another after realizing the market opportunity that exists.

      --
      God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
    23. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by AK+Marc · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You assume mobility. Only if those that take vouchers are required to take all applicants will that work, and only then if busing is free (and vouchers are accepted as payment in full).

      All the vouchers I've seen proposed so far do not cover the whole cost of private school, and as such, would make the schools inaccessible to the poor. They will be stuck in their failed school, while those with the means to leave will.

    24. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by corbettw · · Score: 1

      It's ultimately about controlling the ideas that youth are exposed to.

      Yep, that's what it all boils down to. The thing the leftists don't realize is, idiot parents who speak in tongues or kneel on a rug five times a day or won't eat a cheeseburger because it's not kosher are going to influence their kids' thinking, regardless of what school they attend. If they're real whackjobs who believe the world is 6000 years old, no amount of instruction in the true nature of the universe by teachers is going to get past that. At least not for the vast majority of students. So if they send the kids to a school that reinforces this stuff, are the kids really any worse off than they would've been anyway?

      --
      God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
    25. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by HeckRuler · · Score: 1

      uhhhhhh wouldn't you, as an leftist extreamist not want to put kids through an inbred fundamentalist indoctrination? Wouldn't you say that's where, you know, "the right" comes from?
      I mean, the traditional battle-lines usually involve "the left" putting kids through public education so everyone has a fair shot and indoctrinating kids on diversity.
      Meanwhile "the right" put kids through private segregated schools indoctrinating them to fundamentalist beliefs. And the wealthy ones can afford the prestigious schools where the children are destined for greatness.

      Keep to the script! You're confusing the audience!

    26. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because they would be used to support schools that believe a mystic space fairy rules the world. That is a waste of money, and encourages that stupidity to continue.

    27. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by ndogg · · Score: 1

      I'm not opposed to a voucher system, but I'll be damn pissed if my tax dollars go to religious schools. If there were a voucher system, then the schools accepting those vouchers should be required to adhere to the same secular laws governing public schools now.

      --
      // file: mice.h
      #include "frickin_lasers.h"
    28. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      A school is like a church-- all the value is in the people. You can start a school in an old warehouse, or my living room. All you need is money for basic supplies, which the vouchers would certainly cover.

      I'd wager a school in my living room would produce significantly better students than the average high school, if only because the class size would be small. ;)

      The reason vouchers fail is because of powerful teacher union interference. The idea is sound, and should be tried.

    29. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by vux984 · · Score: 1

      "The truth is, education is a thoroughly individual activity that requires nothing but access to information and to people who already understand that information. In this Internet age, those things are more readily available than ever."

      information itself is readily available.
      people who already understand taht information... maybe in your house. What happens when Jimmy doesn't learn fractions because mommy sucks at fractions? What happens when Jimmy doesn't learn anything because mommy is working at Walmart?

      Homeschooling is great... but it requires:

      a) a person capable of actually teaching the information: answering the kids questions, presenting the information and making it interesting, ability to organize time, and maintain some discipline...

      b) enough affluence that the person a) above doesn't have to work at walmart instead.

    30. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by nelsonal · · Score: 1

      So do factories, warehouses, offices, and other business buildings, yet they seem to be built more than almost any other building in this country. Grass roots businesses spring up all the time, some grow rapidly, some grow only a little, some wither and die but new ones regularly come to take their place.

      --
      Degaussing scares the bad magnetism out of the monitor and fills it with good karma.
    31. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by mikael · · Score: 1

      The idea of vouchers was that schools could be opened and closed like restaurants in a downtown area. Then customers (parents) could pick which school they wanted and the bad ones (poor educators) would go out of business.

      The main disadvantage is that for rural areas, there isn't going to be much choice. There may only be enough population for one high-school in a ten-mile radius. For inner-city areas, there may not be space for a popular school to expand or even for another one to form. The left prefer large schools (1200+) because they claim it gives the school more money to spend on resource like technology and sporting equipment, then they'll set this as the minimum requirement for any new school to form.

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
    32. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      Because vouchers in general are not about school choice, but a means of forcing taxpayers to pay for religious education: subsidizing those who already send their children to parochial schools.

      Is this supposed to outrage me? Because it doesn't bother me at all.

      Religious schools have the same accreditation requirements as secular ones, yes? So... who cares?

    33. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by dfenstrate · · Score: 1

      Chiefly because exposing school systems to a competitive market implicitly accepts that some schools will fall into even worse decay that they currently are. Poor schools become poorer, with little funding to hire better teachers or acquire better books.

      As schools are not objects which can house an infinite number of students, some students will be forced to attend those schools caught in that downward spiral - schools that are not only sub-par, but lacking funding and interaction with a diverse body of students, since all the brightest have made it into the "nice" schools.

      I don't see why anyone would object to the ultimate destruction of schools that just plain can't hack it.

      Incidentally, there are a number of voucher-funded schools out there that take any student who is willing to subscribe to their program- not just the best and the brightest, but the marginal students as well.

      Since those schools have to work to keep the students- even the slower ones- there, these students also excel (relatively speaking) in a competitive school market.

      Face it. Public schools that don't have competition have fewer reasons to deliver educated students than public schools that must basically justify their existence every year.

      How many people in your workplace would (or do) slack off continually when there is no pressure to deliver results? Do you really want your children educated in the same fashion?

      The best public schools exist in cities with high parental involvement in the students education and the school board. The residents of poorer districts may not become this involved for a variety of reasons, but even they can spend an hour a year deciding if their child should really keep going to that particular school.

      --
      Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be the name of a store, not a government agency.
    34. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by schon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And yet the schools in the rest of the developed world, which (pretty much universally) have better-educated students, seem to have bypassed these problems.

      I wonder why that is?

    35. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by khallow · · Score: 1

      Chiefly because exposing school systems to a competitive market implicitly accepts that some schools will fall into even worse decay that they currently are. Poor schools become poorer, with little funding to hire better teachers or acquire better books.

      That is a feature not a bug. End the existence of these terrible schools. It's not the job of education, public or otherwise to waste and fritter away the lives of thousands of hapless students.

    36. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by sean_nestor · · Score: 3, Informative

      The existence and history of the homeschooling movement indicates very much to the contrary. What is a homeschooling household, but a grassroots school sprouted up around a single family? A properly designed voucher system would encourage groups of parents, when they feel they have no better alternative, to homeschool their kids together. That's a school! The vouchers would help with the cost of educational materials, and what more is needed?

      I would not trust such a system like homeschooling to objectively and effectively educate most children. Relying on parents is an invitation for indoctrination and intellectual inbreeding. Forget teaching kids about skills that aren't already developed in adults, much less the ability to cope with different environments and alternative viewpoints.

      You seem to have absorbed the idea that education is something that comes only from large institutions. The truth is, education is a thoroughly individual activity that requires nothing but access to information and to people who already understand that information. In this Internet age, those things are more readily available than ever.

      No, I've absorbed the idea that people who have achieved a modicum of qualification are better suited to instruct our youth than parents who have a vested interest in protecting children from the scary world outside their home.

    37. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by HeckRuler · · Score: 1

      must accept any and all students that apply.

      So uh, what do you do when 100,000 kids apply to a school for made for 1,000?
      "It'll balance out eventually" isn't a good argument as you fuck over a whole year of schooling, and all the other schools go bust. Furthermore, let's say you apply to a school because Jaime Escalante is a teacher there. There is only one of him, he can't be everyone's personal hero. It's a scarce resource, I think people are going to get picky about it.

      must accept vouchers as payment in full for all services

      So, it's not a voucher, it's a full scholarship to any highschool. I mean, I thought the definition of a voucher was that it was like a education coupon. $500 towards a school of your choice. Poor kids go to the school that's $500 (or less and the pocket the diff), and rich kids get a fraction off their private school (and the private schools get $500xnum(students) for free). Does everything have to get paid for out of this $500 or does the voucher cover all costs? If the voucher is strictly $500 (or whatever), then goodbye uniforms, science labs, and music programs.

      OOOoohhhhh, I get it. It HAS to pay for everything. So the rich avoid it like the plague and the "public" schools compete to squeeze in more bodies. This opposes parents want for a good education and move them to the best school. I dunno dude, that is one of many ways that this idea could play out.

    38. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by elnyka · · Score: 1

      Getting the fundamentalist nutjobs out of the public schools and into their own little inbred communities where they can't do any harm to the rest of society would just be a bonus, as far as I'm concerned.

      They already have this, its called home schooling.

      Interesting generalization of home schoolers, also considering that, despite all generalizations being thrown as evidence against this practice, home schooled kids actually do well. Of the few home schooling families I've found, I've not seen one motivated by religion or right-wing-nuttery.

      My wife and I are college graduates, educated and traveled. Me raised Catholic (but not a practitioner) and my wife an occasional practitioner of Buddhism and Shinto - hardly describable as fundamentalist nutjobs, and yet we are strongly considering home schooling for our daughter. My sister is a Mathematics professor and she supplements (or rather fixes) a lot of my 2nd-grader nephew's public schooling with home schooling of her own (way beyond just mere homework), including experiments in Botany, World History and the basics of logic and argumentation (.ie. differences between facts and opinions.)

      Obviously, this is purely an anecdotal observation so take it with a grain of salt. But it seems rather hypocritical to belittle home schooling from a soap box (an action usually done from a sense of intellectual superiority... read arrogance). Ideological posturing does not replace logical thinking.

      Maybe you indeed have seen a sufficiently large number of home schooling families of such a nature that you can say with logical confidence that they are mostly fundamentalist nutjobs. Or maybe you are just pulling that generalization out of your ass. Maybe you are being objective. Maybe you are being subjective. Only you know for certain.

    39. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by HeckRuler · · Score: 1

      Well school is mandatory. In a city of 10 schools worth of kids you need 10 schools. Or you need to squeeze them in like sardines.

      Ok, or you need to squeeze them in like sardines, more so.

    40. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would not trust such a system like homeschooling to objectively and effectively educate most children. Relying on parents is an invitation for indoctrination and intellectual inbreeding.

      Because public schools aren't an invitation for indoctrination? What you're saying is, you don't want them being indoctrinated with things you don't like. In other words, you're just another control freak.

    41. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by HeckRuler · · Score: 1

      Homeschooling would be a better argument if it weren't for the majority of the home-schooled I've met. I'm sure it's possible to come out of homeschooling as a confident social butterfly, but my limited experience in the matter sees a trend in the other direction.

    42. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by Itninja · · Score: 1

      But here's the thing...it takes years and years to build a school for even a few hundred students (even longer to build a high school). Parents move into a neighborhood and 'demand' more schools. So, the 'supply' side says 'sure no problem!, expect it in about 3 years!'. Long before then, those parents' children have moved on to other schools, or just moved away. Not to mention the time it would take to staff the school with seasoned teachers.

      Supply and demand works well for commodities and general goods. Not so much for organizational entities that provide a basic service. Unless of course we do away with free education altogether, then sure, go nuts. I'm sure that won't create a caste system at all ~sarcasm

      --
      I judt got a nre Kinesis keybiartf so please excusr ant egregiou typos.
    43. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by sean_nestor · · Score: 4, Informative

      Because public schools aren't an invitation for indoctrination? What you're saying is, you don't want them being indoctrinated with things you don't like. In other words, you're just another control freak.

      Hardly.

      The difference between public schools and home schooling in this case is that there is much more scrutiny in a public school. Though indoctrination most certainly happens in schools, it can at least be identified and handled, either through the media or in the courts - often both.

      If you can identify a mechanism in homeschooling which prevents Mr. Smith from telling his child that evolution is a lie from the devil and that the world is 6000 years old, I'd be glad to entertain the idea in a more serious light. But until then, public school is the lesser of two evils.

    44. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by corbettw · · Score: 1

      Just because you don't know how to read demographic data and forecast trends, doesn't mean other people can't. If what you're complaining about had any semblance to reality then we'd never see any new private schools built. And yet there's a new one being constructed not two miles from where I'm sitting. Explain that one, smart guy.

      --
      God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
    45. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      o uh, what do you do when 100,000 kids apply to a school for made for 1,000?

      Well, you'd have them pick the ones they want to take and screw the other 99,000, right? And you think that fair? What would "fair" be? Could a religious school take government money and make it a requirement that you meet their religion? Sounds a bit like establishment to me. Or how about whites only? Or, less controversial but no less separate-but-equal is unisex schools. When you can take just who you want, you'll take the best, drop the rest, and kick out anyone you don't like because there are 99,000 more waiting to take that spot. When that's the system, the public schools will "lose" for many reasons, not the least of which is the loss of only the "top" students (however the private schools choose to define "top").

      "It'll balance out eventually" isn't a good argument as you fuck over a whole year of schooling, and all the other schools go bust. Furthermore, let's say you apply to a school because Jaime Escalante is a teacher there. There is only one of him, he can't be everyone's personal hero. It's a scarce resource, I think people are going to get picky about it.

      So? Rather than whining about it, try coming up with a solution. If you were presented the problem, how would you solve it? How would you want the system to work if you were a parent?

      Personally, I think something that limited enrollment changes of more than 10% per year, so they'd take 1,100 the first year, and 1,210 the year after, until they got up to 100,000 wouldn't be a bad solution. Assume the private school had 100 teachers for 1000 students. You'd go from 10:1 ratio to 1000:1 ratio. Do you really think that parents would want their child enrolled in a place where the small classes are only 500 people? They'd obviously not want that for their children. So wouldn't some switch schools, if only for the first couple years?

      Or ramp the whole project up with some metric (or random) for determining who gets vouchers, and phase them in over 10 years.

      I can think of 10 ways in 10 minutes to solve this, and I haven't even been working hard. You either want it to fail, or are incapable of critical thinking. I have to assume the former, but feel free to correct me.

      So, it's not a voucher, it's a full scholarship to any highschool. I mean, I thought the definition of a voucher was that it was like a education coupon.

      No, it's a voucher. Define voucher and coupon and post those definitions here if you want to discuss them. But I can define voucher such that the system I described is a voucher system. That others propose different rules doesn't change the definition of the word.

      OOOoohhhhh, I get it. It HAS to pay for everything. So the rich avoid it like the plague and the "public" schools compete to squeeze in more bodies. This opposes parents want for a good education and move them to the best school. I dunno dude, that is one of many ways that this idea could play out.

      If the voucher was for the full cost of that student in public school, then you'd compete on price. Everyone would have the same money, and those who use it most efficiently would win. But again, you are making assumptions, then attacking the assumptions. You aren't taking what I said and seeing whether it could work, but trying to break it without even defining it. What would you rather see, the voucher systems others have proposed which are only tax cuts for the rich?

    46. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by bussdriver · · Score: 1

      Vouchers can not solve the societal and human problems that manifest in any school system.

      A diverse nation needs to integrate the schools. After the blacks integrated there was a rise in private schools. duh.

      We have a rise in racism but we ALSO have a huge push back in the culture wars - race used to to be a big issue there but its diminished in its role. The conflation of the two still continues to some degree so they get confused with each other.

      One of the ways the culture war manifests itself is private schooling - can't let our children be influenced by THOSE PEOPLE! Each side in the war wants to alienate their children from the other side - and vouchers are way to doing public funding for private schooling while CHARTER SCHOOLS are an attempt to create public private schools in many cases. Sometimes they work out; over all the charter schools cost more and deliver no better and often do worse than the district model. The main reason for the push for them is the culture war; NOT accountability and better performance because they on a whole have not be delivering any improvements other than increased spending.

      I went to inner city schools, suburban all white schools, and violent nun private school. I have education experts in the family. Just going to school does not make one an expert in education anymore than having a tooth pulled makes you a dentist. The school for your child and the teachers for your child quite likely are not what you think they should be; same goes for their peers.

    47. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by c_jonescc · · Score: 1

      Vouchers only effect two groups of people - those in the middle class that just can't quite afford private school but don't think public school is adequate, and those that feel the need for their education to have a religious influence.

      Leaving aside church/state issues, I'll comment on the first group, which I'm more passionate about anyway. Our success as a nation has everything to do with people's opportunity to pursue an education, and vouchers do nothing more than bleed money from already poorly funded public schools into private schools, broadening our already shameful socioeconomic-driven opportunity gap.

      We need to make our public schools work, and removing funds doesn't seem like a productive route towards this goal. Maybe you can think of a system or institution that would be improved by poorer funding, but I can't.

      I'm not saying that our public schools are great right now, but having the middle class completely abandon them does not look like a solution to me. That is why I'm against vouchers.

      --
      Getting diabetes AND salmonella would be a bad weekend.
    48. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by misexistentialist · · Score: 1

      Teachers unions support Democrats. What's hard to understand?

    49. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by Kijori · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This doesn't make any sense. There's no limit on the number of schools that can be created. Vouchers make it easier for parents to remove their children from failing schools and put them in better ones. Poorly run schools will quickly lose all their students and shut down. It's the current system that keeps failing schools in operation, not a voucher system!

      Well, over time, no, there isn't. But in the short term the limit is effectively what we have now; under the private academy scheme in the UK (where I live and therefore what I'm familiar with) the average cost of an "academy" - a privately financed school - was £35m (~$53m), with an average lead time of 4 years from planning to creation, not including finding the teachers and staff you need to operate it. You can't just conjure a new school, so if you consign a school to failure you also consign all its students to a bad education, either because they have to stay in a school that is being phased out or because they are crammed into over-sized classes at a school that hasn't got the capacity to accomodate them.

      The problem with school vouchers is that the choice is a fallacy. We've had similar schemes tried over here - parents would get to send their children to whichever school they wanted, sick people would be treated at whichever hospital they wanted and so on. The problem, though, is that not everyone can go to the best schools or the best hospitals; they only have a limited number of places. Where I grew up - Coventry - the best school was a place called Finham; Finham was big and well-funded and in the nicer part of town, and so everyone wanted to send their kids there. Could every child go to Finham? No, of course not, the school wasn't big enough, and so the kids just went to the schools near them, just like always.
      There's no way around this. In another post you point to homeschooling, but having homeschooling as your solution is the ultimate in discrimination: you can only be homeschooled if one of your parents can afford to stay at home, meaning that, as an option, it's available only to the well-off. It's also a complete abandonment of social mobility: if your parents are poorly educated then you will be, too, because they're your teachers, and they can't teach you English and maths and science and everything else on the curriculum if they dropped out of school at 13. And that's to say nothing of the fact that even the best home schooling lacks an awful lot of the resources available to well-funded actual school: no science labs, no CAD/CAM, no library, no gym, no media centre, no darkroom, and so on - again, the availability of these outside the school system is determined by wealth.

      Vouchers are a solution for a world that doesn't exist, where poor schools can be closed without consequences for the students who go there and new schools can be created overnight. You don't need to send all your students to the best schools - that just means making the best schools worse. You need to make the bad schools into good schools, but unfortunately there's no gimmick that does that.

    50. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      With home schooling, a student gets far more attention than the would in a Public School classroom. I have no problem with home schooling except that I think children can learn more about life at a school with other children.

      The problem I have with vouchers are those schools that keep themselves exclusive by having high tuition. The will merely raise the tuition to keep themselves exclusive and those parents wanting to keep their schools exclusive will gladly pay more. I think that if a voucher program is implemented, then a school that decides to participate in the voucher system should have to accept the voucher amount as the total tuition for attending a school. Nothing more.

      There. You have competition. The problem with many schools is that they're often funded by property taxes which means if you live in a poor county, you don't get much for your schools. Yes a voucher program can level the playing field, but we have to truly make the playing field level.

    51. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by Limburgher · · Score: 2, Informative

      Separation of church and state forbids it. Period. I say this as the brother of someone who got a damned fine education at a pair of Catholic schools.

      --

      You are not the customer.

    52. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by HiThere · · Score: 1

      You *can't* be "very familiar with how a voucher system would work", because there are so many possibilities. They cover the range from quite good to abominably bad.

      Ideally a voucher system would put very few restrictions on what could be a "school". It should cover everything from a parent's cooperative nursery school to an Advanced Placement University for teens. I'm dubious about religious schools. The teaching of religion should not be payable with in vouchers. But I'm not at all sure this means that the school shouldn't rent it's rooms from a church. (Just that if it did, eviction should be quite difficult, an only be possible either over summer break or between semesters...and with 6-months notice.) (Should other landlords by bound by the same rules? Seems likely.)

      N.B.: By my definition of a "good voucher program" there would be no requirement of teacher accreditation. Not saying it shouldn't happen, merely that the *government* shouldn't require it. If it's a good system, then of course the parents should require it. (I happen to believe that the current system is about as good as flipping a coin. If were to become a selling point, it would need to improve itself a LOT.)

      P.S.: In my flavor of libertarianism the feds wouldn't stop most of their accreditation of various varieties...but they couldn't forbid vendors from selling merchandise that didn't meet their licensing requirements. Just from saying that it had been approved. And other groups could run their own licensing programs. Trademark style law would be favored over patent style law. (So those who object to

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    53. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by hondo77 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Explain to me how this is a "leftist extremist" point of view.

      It's simple: the poster is not an ideologue. He/she holds mostly leftist views but finds some views on the other side of the fence not so bad. It's a benefit of having an open mind.

      --
      I live ze unknown. I love ze unknown. I am ze unknown.
    54. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by moosesocks · · Score: 1

      Just because you don't know how to read demographic data and forecast trends, doesn't mean other people can't. If what you're complaining about had any semblance to reality then we'd never see any new private schools built. And yet there's a new one being constructed not two miles from where I'm sitting. Explain that one, smart guy.

      Ask any economist. Reliable demographic data and forecast trends take years to develop -- how do you differentiate between a momentary spike, and an actual long-term trend? Hedging a bet on anything sooner is exactly that -- a gamble. Precious few people can accurately develop or read long-term forecast trends -- there are very few Warren Buffets in the world.

      Odds are that the demand has existed for a private school in your area for many years.

      There's been demand for a good grocery store in my neighborhood for ages. Unfortunately, I live in a city where land is expensive, and the availability of parking/transit greatly limits the number of viable sites for a grocery store. Currently, the world's worst grocer occupies one of the only viable sites, and the residents seem content to tolerate the mediocrity enough to keep it in business.

      Now that the demographics of the area are beginning to stabilize, a few developers are considering proposals for a ground-level supermarket in the area, although it's been almost a full 10 years since the demand has existed.

      There are plenty of cases where private industry is unable to fulfill consumer demand, even where the demand is fairly basic and sufficiently large to be profitable.

      --
      -- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
    55. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you knew anything about the Detroit school system you would also know that 'falling into worse decay' is an impossibility, leastwise without extreme measures like, say, the introduction of cannibalism.

    56. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by Hythlodaeus · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Schools do not just appear. They take a great deal of financing and legal paperwork.

      That sounds like a problem it itself, not a problem with vouchers per se.

      --
      For great justice.
    57. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      There's a bit more too. Vouchers were a threat to the establishment, which in this case includes both administration and unions. So the left doesn't really want to kick the unions around too much. But that's probably just a minor reason.

      The major reason I think is that vouchers are an "I give up" solution. As in giving up on public schools and hoping to take tax dollars to private schools (religious or not). It doesn't fix the problem, it lets some people just bypass it completely. So like a car that's broken down it gets abandoned for a new one rather than making repairs. So a lot of people would prefer to fix the problems and so are opposed to vouchers.

    58. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by PSandusky · · Score: 1

      b) enough affluence that the person a) above doesn't have to work at walmart instead.

      Yahtzee.

      --
      "What's the use in being grown up if you can't be childish sometimes?" --Fourth Doctor, "Robot"
    59. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by tanderson92 · · Score: 1

      Getting the fundamentalist nutjobs out of the public schools and into their own little inbred communities where they can't do any harm to the rest of society would just be a bonus, as far as I'm concerned.

      They already have this, its called home schooling.

      The statement that homeschoolers are fundamentalist nutjobs who harm society is wrong. Homeschoolers, by and large, are those who are dissatisfied with the public school system(perhaps because the system is not designed to educate, but rather to dictate) and seek to better their children's education. As others have mentioned, a college degree in education is not necessary to be an effective or excellent teacher, only having a passion for a subject, transferring that passion to the student, and being able to help the student apply that passion to learning.

      I personally am a home schooled senior and am graduating to attend one of the nation's top 10 mathematics universities with significant academic scholarships, and I wouldn't consider myself different from many of the home-schoolers I am friends with(yes, we have friends too!). We have the ability to attend community college classes as many of my friends and I do, and can participate in many extracurricular-yet-educational activities(I contribute to, and am a developer for, severl OSS projects).

      We simply are not fundamentalist nutjobs who harm society; we contribute to it, invariably more than the average public or private schooler.

    60. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by jdcope · · Score: 1

      Then maybe we should change how the money is distributed at the federal level. Here in Oregon, all schools are funded equally. All the tax money goes to the fund, then they all get the same amount per kid, period. That way all the "rich" and "poor" neighborhoods all have the same funding.

    61. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You assume that teaching is not (or should not) be a profession, the same way engineering or law or medicine is, and that it, in its way, isn't as meaningful or challenging. Of course, in all those fields, dedicated amateurs (I'm using the term non-pejoratively) or people who are not accredited by a professional body can make significant contributions. But overall I think the values professionalization brings are important.

      Education can be an individual activity. Teaching is, by definition, not an individual activity. And we're not talking about education from the perspective of an individual here, we're talking about mass education as a social good which the government (and our government is supposed to be 'of and for the people', so its really us, not 'the government') undertakes out of national self-interest, and in the interest of providing essential services to us, the citizens whom create and enable our government.

    62. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by corbettw · · Score: 1

      Ask any economist. Reliable demographic data and forecast trends take years to develop -- how do you differentiate between a momentary spike, and an actual long-term trend? Hedging a bet on anything sooner is exactly that -- a gamble. Precious few people can accurately develop or read long-term forecast trends -- there are very few Warren Buffets in the world.

      And yet developers somehow figure out where to build new housing developments, new strip malls, new gas stations, new hospitals, and so forth and so on. Is it perfect? No, of course not. But to say it's impossible is imbecilic.

      --
      God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
    63. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by Itninja · · Score: 1

      Explain that one, smart guy.

      Sure. That school is probably being funded by a levy that passed years ago. In fact, I would bet dollars-to-donuts that the time from 'hey we need a new school' to 'here's your new school' is measured in decades.

      And regarding private schools, they draw people to them. They are not like Quiznos and put in the middle of densely populated area. More like golf courses that are built rural areas and, over time, draw a community.

      --
      I judt got a nre Kinesis keybiartf so please excusr ant egregiou typos.
    64. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by khallow · · Score: 1

      The problem I have with vouchers are those schools that keep themselves exclusive by having high tuition. The will merely raise the tuition to keep themselves exclusive and those parents wanting to keep their schools exclusive will gladly pay more. I think that if a voucher program is implemented, then a school that decides to participate in the voucher system should have to accept the voucher amount as the total tuition for attending a school. Nothing more.

      The point of having vouchers is to give choice to parents. If parents want to use them to put their kid in a snooty, expensive school, then those vouchers are being used correctly as far as I'm concerned. I think exclusive schools should be allowed. Remember a lot of people are materialists. They should get what they want.

    65. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by Shadowlore · · Score: 1

      I presume you were in favor of nuclear power? That would put you at odds with the vocal left-extremists. I suspect that will change in about a decade. It seems to take around that long for such ideas to bubble-over to one of the extreme sides.

      The simplest voucher system is almost precisely what you stated. I'd just add "or home-school", though in a few years I'd bet the home-schooler contingent will reverse curse and shrink since they'll have affordable schools to choose from at their disposal. Any stipulations on it and you create an inherent inequality to the system. The remaining tricky bit is how do you classify a school? I'd say same as any other business.They file their business paperwork to do a specific thing. Creating a "school" that really exists to collect voucher money is fraud and should be prosecuted as such - nothing more, nothing less.

      And I fully agree that getting the nutbags into their own schools is a definite bonus.

      --
      My Suburban burns less gasoline than your Prius.
    66. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by TheSync · · Score: 1

      I'm not opposed to a voucher system, but I'll be damn pissed if my tax dollars go to religious schools.

      While on Constitutional grounds, there may be no excuse for tax dollars to go to religious schools, on a practical level, perhaps fear of (a fake) God may help students to concentrate on their lessons...

      The Netherlands provides per-pupil subsidies to public-run, private-run, and religous-based schools. Only 30% of Netherlands children attend public-run schools.

    67. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by urusan · · Score: 2, Informative

      Go read actual wording of the Constitution. Religion is only mentioned twice:

      The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the
      several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of
      the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or
      Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be
      required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United
      States.

      Okay, so there's no religious test required for public office, nothing relating to schools here.

      Amendment 1
      Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
      prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or
      of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition
      the Government for a redress of grievances.

      Okay, so congress cannot make a law about the establishment of a religion or prohibit people from worshiping their religion.

      That's it. There's nothing else in there about the separation of church and state.

      How then does this translate into public dollars not being able to be spent by parents on religious schools if they so choose? The government isn't establishing religious schools or enforcing the use of religious schools. They aren't even directly funding religious schools. How is this any different from someone taking their economic stimulus check and deciding to donate it to a church? or using state-funded insurance at a religious hospital?

      By the way, I'm an atheist. Though I do live in the southeastern US, so almost everyone around me is Christian.

    68. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by RyuuzakiTetsuya · · Score: 1

      Because vouchers aren't any guarantee of success either.

      The private sector is just as good, if not better, than screwing up than the public sector is. It's not a solution, and it's going to cause problems on it's own.

      --
      Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
    69. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by yurtinus · · Score: 1

      You are missing a huge problem - many parents in the areas with the worst schools right now are far too busy trying to put food on the table or simply don't care. There's no way these parents would home school. No way they'd even get their kids to a nicer school that's out of walking range. How do vouchers help here? The few who have the means to get their kids to a nicer school somewhere outside the ghetto will do it, and those stuck will be in even worse shape then they are now. So, no. Good schools will not somehow appear to save these kids. Some education can be an individual activity-- but through even the most motivated 5 year old in a library or on a computer and see how far they get. Information is great, but it doesn't teach you to think and it is useless if you don't know what to do with that information.

      --
      +1 Disagree
    70. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by t0rkm3 · · Score: 1

      Your public school option does not address the problem that you posit either.

      Parents, are, and should be the defining influence in a child's development. To propose anything else is to lessen freedom and diversity in our system, which is a loss.

      If a child is home-schooled and can meet or exceed all of the academic standards that are required within a state, then you cannot argue against home-schooling unless you argue for state control. Arguing for state control of people's thought and development process is not a new argument for the American Liberal (i.e. PC Speech, aka ThoughtCrime) so I could accept that in your position.

      However, if your standards are sufficiently high and require a diverse enough level of education then a child who could pass those exams should be able to review the given literature (The Bible vs various scientifically derived texts) and come to their own conclusions. Early in their life they may be swayed by their environment, but they will make a decision as to which is philosophically more acceptable at many points in their life.

      By arguing against home education you make your argument appear weak. I disagree with your view because I was raised in a very religious region of the US by somewhat religious parents, but I developed doubts about the Bible at ~12 yrs old. (This caused my expulsion from a Bible study class when I quoted several contradictory verses to a position the teacher had proposed.)

      My wife has taken all of the courses required to get her teaching cert for the sole reason that people like you may someday pass a law like California's attempt at banning home-schooling unless taught by a certified professional. May all people who propose such things find themselves infected with three different flavors of antibacterial resistant STD's.

    71. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by pablodiazgutierrez · · Score: 1

      Indeed. In Spain, many (good) religious schools that get government money are like public schools on paper, but then use loopholes like demanding a really steep PTA fee from all parents, which in effect turns them into schools for the rich. They seem to be able to have it both ways, at the cost of the people.

      Still, I don't think these are unsolvable issues. In places like Sweden (of all places), they're being used with great success.

    72. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by colinrichardday · · Score: 1

      Getting the fundamentalist nutjobs out of the public schools and into their own little inbred communities where they can't do any harm to the rest of society would just be a bonus, as far as I'm concerned.

      Yeah, 'cause the Hutaree is absolutely no threat to anyone.

    73. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by dfenstrate · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If you can identify a mechanism in homeschooling which prevents Mr. Smith from telling his child that evolution is a lie from the devil and that the world is 6000 years old, I'd be glad to entertain the idea in a more serious light. But until then, public school is the lesser of two evils.

      If totalitarian thought control is your goal, then yes, public school is the lesser of two evils.
      However, the poor kid who has only been taught about the biblical story of creation is the exception, not the norm.

      The norm is that home schooled students significantly outperform public school students in many areas of study.

      Better results matter.
      You seem to be concerned primarily with ensuring that everyone only thinks state-approved thoughts (correct or not), and are apparently willing to sacrifice all the better results home schools generally deliver in a vain attempt to stamp out the occasional outlier.

      --
      Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be the name of a store, not a government agency.
    74. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by corbettw · · Score: 1

      Private schools aren't built through levies.

      I have friends who own a chain of private schools. Their experience runs completely counter to everything you're saying. They build in strip malls, near densely populated areas; they look specifically for locations that have a built-up presence of homes in a certain value range, plus demographics trends showing a certain number of families over time. When they open their doors, it's within a year of starting planning, not decades.

      Face it, entrepreneurs chasing a buck will always outperform government bureaucrats.

      --
      God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
    75. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by the_raptor · · Score: 1

      Nothing stops parents sending their kids to public school AND convincing the kid that evolution is a lie from the devil and that the world is 6000 years old*. Also if you don't think all the other values instilled through things like history lessons aren't indoctrination** that is only because they agree with your indoctrination. As public schools don't teach kids critical thinking they offer no value in generating minds that can question this indoctrination from authority figures.

      * I think most public school science education is of such poor quality that it creates the gaps that "creation scientists" use to promulgate their message. I attribute the rise in atheism to a fall in church attendance not due to the quality of science education.

      ** Like "Our country uber alles", "obey authority figures because they are authority figures", and "there are only two political parties and which ever isn't the teachers favourite are a bunch of baby eating nazis".

      --

      ========
      CINC, 4th Penguin Legion
    76. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sorry, as long as these schools are allowed to discriminate against minorities and children of same sex couples, as was seen recently, there is no way in hell the federal govt can fun a program to subsidize these institutions. The Federal Government should not pay to have schools discriminate against the children ANY tax paying citizens, "good catholics"(dead ones) can be homophobes and pederasts on their own dime.

    77. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      I would not trust such a system like homeschooling to objectively and effectively educate most children.

      Right, its not like the kids have to pass any tests or meet any guidelines when being homeschooled.....

      Relying on parents is an invitation for indoctrination and intellectual inbreeding.

      Because NONE of that happens in public schools, right? And are you seriously suggesting that homeschooling cant be competitive with public schools? I remember in High school I had a couple of excellent teachers, but there were also several that were pretty bad. Aside from all that, having the parent actually take a direct role in the kids life (as opposed to basically letting the school system raise the kid) is definitely a good thing.

    78. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      TBQH, if its Mr. Smith's kid, and the kid can pass all the state exams, why is it any of your concern WHAT he teaches him?

    79. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by tibit · · Score: 1

      I generally agree that homeschooling is an impediment to social mobility, but some of the reasons you cite are a tad off with reality.

      I'd think that most grade-school-level science can be done with everyday household items. It's mostly about the quality and ingeniousness of the teacher. CAD/CAM - there's Alibre. Library -- what about public libraries? Of course you have to be able to get to them, so maybe that's a problem. I've never really used the library in my elementary and high schools. Media centre? -- never had one. YouTube + some ingenuity is fine as far as I'm concerned. Gym -- not a real need. Go run in a park or something. Darkroom -- you could do without, it may get arguably somewhat expensive to have a fully blown one, but it's a tad outdated skill to have. As part of science curriculum -- that could be one or two lessons, tops. Other than that, it's a fine hobby, but plays no big role in a curriculum -- certainly not big enough to have a dedicated lab for it. One can fashion a camera obscura, and use regular negative enlargement paper -- that can be processed essentially in a dark bathroom, you don't need a real darkroom for that. Shows the principle, if some kid wants to see the indirect process (negative film + enlargements), one can use some old slides.

      So while I agree that "awful lot of resources" sound good on paper, their lack is not a real impediment. Teachers who have ability and time to teach -- that's the real difference maker. Pay teachers enough so that they can actually spend lots of time teaching! Maybe the idea of single teachers wasn't so misguided after all...

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    80. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by Itninja · · Score: 1
      Sound more like 'Sylvan Leaning Centers' than actual schools (i.e. playgrounds, gyms, cafeterias).

      entrepreneurs chasing a buck will always outperform government bureaucrats

      Of that I have not doubt. And their performance will be based on one motto: "No Indigents Need Apply"

      --
      I judt got a nre Kinesis keybiartf so please excusr ant egregiou typos.
    81. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by HeckRuler · · Score: 1

      Wut?

      Dude, you put forward an idea about vouchers. Just 3 rules really. And then I put forward some potential pitfalls. OF COURSE I'm not drinking the kool-aid and just hoping it works. If your idea has any legs to stand on, you should have ANSWERS to these problems, and not complain that I'm attacking your idea. You're being a whiny little bitch about constructive criticism.

      I had actually only heard about this voucher idea in passing. I heard it was something that would let private schools get public money. So, you know, a idea that neoCons would be all over. But here you come in and say that "extreame leftists" also like the idea, with come strings. Well ok, maybe that warrants taking another look at it.
      But no, if you can't even deal with very obvious pitfalls and get so bloody defensive at the slightest dissent, then you haven't thought this through, and this is a really bad idea.

      So congrats dude, you've confirmed that I'd rather see no voucher system at all.

    82. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      and yet we are strongly considering home schooling for our daughter.

      But you didn't actually DO it -- because, just like everyone other than a nutjob or filthy rich, would find it unaffordable and incompatible with doing anything useful with your life.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    83. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by jonaskoelker · · Score: 1

      If you can identify a mechanism in homeschooling which prevents Mr. Smith from telling his child that evolution is a lie from the devil and that the world is 6000 years old, I'd be glad to entertain the idea in a more serious light.

      In order to fix the school system, you must first educate the public. How zen...

      Does public school prevent mr. Smith from talking to his kids? Does it do anything that can't be done to home-schooled kids too (except for the frequency)?

    84. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Dude, you put forward an idea about vouchers. Just 3 rules really. And then I put forward some potential pitfalls. OF COURSE I'm not drinking the kool-aid and just hoping it works. If your idea has any legs to stand on, you should have ANSWERS to these problems, and not complain that I'm attacking your idea. You're being a whiny little bitch about constructive criticism.

      Yeah, you are making complaints about "if you do vouchers and the vouchers are black ink on black paper, people can't read them." You assumed it would be a bad implementation of the idea without any thought at all as to how *you* would solve it. If you can think of how it can fail, why are you incapable of thinking of how to fix those failures? Black ink on white paper? Oh my God, that might just work!

      You whine that too many people might apply to a desired school? So what? That's an initial border case. Yes, it sucks to screw up children's lives for a couple years to get the system going, but even if I were to propose a system that royally screwed up the first 5 years, then it would be in place. The case you are interested in is a very temporary thing. So, are you not interested in the long term health of the school system? Or are you just against the idea, so you are willing to torpedo it because it might be a tough transition?

      That's not a critique, it's a narrow minded attack. I wouldn't even call it criticism, because it didn't address the plan, but a concern about the transition to the plan, not what will happen once the plan is up and running.

      Or your whining about the definition of a voucher. Is it a scholarship or a voucher? Who cares? Again, irrelevant to the plan. You didn't put forward any "potential pitfalls" and what you did put out was poorly thought through attacks. And you call me the whiner. Burn a brain cell before responding, rather than letting your knee-jerk do all your thinking for you.

      I had actually only heard about this voucher idea in passing. I heard it was something that would let private schools get public money. So, you know, a idea that neoCons would be all over. But here you come in and say that "extreame leftists" also like the idea, with come strings. Well ok, maybe that warrants taking another look at it.

      Well, then take a look at it. Tell me what you think of it, rather than attacking the fact that you don't like the word "voucher."

      But no, if you can't even deal with very obvious pitfalls and get so bloody defensive at the slightest dissent, then you haven't thought this through, and this is a really bad idea.

      Wait, because someone on the Internet can't defend an idea the way you'd like to see it defended, then that is definite proof that the idea could never work? Wow. I guess I should expect this level of intelligence from you after your first response. It doesn't even make any sense.

      So congrats dude, you've confirmed that I'd rather see no voucher system at all.

      Then how do you propose to fix the problems with our school system? Or do you just propose to let it continue to fail because doing something requires critical thinking you are incapable of?

      Sitting back and firing pot shots at someone who posts an idea is easy. Let's see you come up with one. I don't think you have one, because you couldn't even think through the arguments you tossed at me. You just tossed out the first things that ran through your head that were negative without thought or logic behind them. So I don't think you'll come up with anything (unless it's something uselessly non specific like "more funding" or "better teachers" or whatever).

      You didn't even address the points with constructive criticism. You essentially stated they'd fail and told me how, after assuming the worst possible parameters. If you want to give someone "constructive criticism" it has to be constructive. But then, that's a big word, I wouldn't expect you know what it means. Really, if you think you are on the h

    85. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by HeckRuler · · Score: 1

      Alright, so you can't stand being sworn at. That's understandable.

      You self-label as an extremist. Just to let you know, you're extremism is showing. Really, just... relax or something.

      But let's have another go at this.
      Say there, friend, that's an interesting idea! I'm not too familiar with it, and perhaps you can fill in the holes, but it seems to need a little work.

      Here's one foreseeable problem that will cause the program to fail before it really gets started: What if everyone sends their kid to the best school in the city?
      -That school will have more kids then it can handle (but a lot of cash).
      -The other schools won't have money at all.

      Now, this is an extreme example of a problem. Of course not ALL the kids will go to one school. Some will stay local because they can't get across town. But the meat of the problem remains of the good school being overcrowded while the bad schools go broke.
      Now, I'm sorry, but I don't have any good ideas about how to fix this that doesn't break the original rule of allowing kids to pick their school. Even if it was something fair like a lotto, I imagine everyone would pick the best school, then the next, and so on. So instead of a competitive system, it's mostly random.


      Here is another problem. Traditionally, I believe the whole voucher idea is sham by neo-cons to get public funding for their private schools. That's, you know, a stereo-type or something. But there is definitely a subset of America that has interest in subverting a program like this to their own ends. So on top of the voucher program, I would suggest a well-defined set of rules for determining who controls the voucher program. I believe if it is left up to elected officials, then this program would quickly change to something you hadn't originally intended. I would suggest something that puts the parents and taxpayers in primary control.


      I believe this idea hinges on setting up a sort of competitive relationship between schools to give them incentive to do better. That system would probably work better if kids could switch schools often and easily. But switching schools itself is probably hard on the kids as they lose friends and any relationships they had with teachers. So do you think students should be encouraged to switch schools or something is put in place to discourage kids from switching?

      Now that I'm super friendly as all fuck, how about it?

    86. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is the silliest argument I have ever heard...do you have any kids or have you ever taught at a K-12 institution, you sound like a 22 year old social studies major whose parents didn't pay for your college or something. What's even funnier is your example actually illustrates that your perception of the usefulness of public schools is exactly what the original poster said, "indoctrination".

      Applying a little parallel thinking, you are basically arguing that an institution of child psychologist (strangers) would be better at raising kids than the kids own parents.You can certainly win an administrative position in a school or government with that kind of thinking, but any teacher who has taught for 10 years or more will tell you the biggest single gift to a child is a good home, not a good school.

      As for your bigoted anti-religious views, I have a better idea, stop worrying about what other people think of your alternative life-style and what they teach their kids and mind your own damn business, after all, you would say the same thing to them if they want to talk about god with you.

      Based on my own experiences after attending public school and being home-schooled, home schooled kids were far more academically capable and socially capable than public school kids. The simple reason being those kids got a lot of love and attention from their parents and didn't have to put up with an artificial environment where learned helplessness and stifling peer pressure is the norm.

      I was very saddened by the tragic end of Jaime Escalantes' inspiring story. The movie "Stand and Deliver" resonated with me at the time it came out because I ended up having to re-take the CAT (California Aptitude Test) twice. The group of home-schoolers I was with at the time were accused of cheating and aside from being humiliated and searched before my re-test it was a great learning experience. As a group, the home-schoolers averaged 4 grade levels higher than all our public school peers we took the test with.We also were tested in an affluent neighborhood with lots of high performing kids.

      The whole experience illustrated to me what really drives the school system, fear of competition.

      As for the religious stuff, check your facts on home schooling. The majority of home schoolers are not evangelical methodist these days and there are more than 3 million home schoolers in the US. The idea of Multiple Intelligences and Montessori school learning environments are just now being recognized and used in Charter schools as viable alternatives to the caged teaching done in public schools. Many of these methods were made popular by former teachers such as John Holt who promoted Homeschooling, De-Schooling, and Un-Schooling, after he gave up on the public school system.

      Concerning taxes, if you really want to get even with the government, just do what everyone else is doing, quit your job (i.e. go Galt) and live off the state or disappear. Sooner or later the sheer volume of need will cause the system to collapse and once that is all sorted out, we can get back to productive people keeping what they work for.

      That option beats working 1 hour in 4 to support a government that shoots for the lowest common denominator as the norm, as if such a defeatist strategy whether intentional or unintentional ultimately ends well for society, or didn't they cover the collapse of the roman empire in school?

    87. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This whole line of thinking is really funny. Let's punish those who have the means to excel because the less fortunate are suffering too.

      Great...you better hope you don't win the lottery.

    88. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Alright, so you can't stand being sworn at. That's understandable.

      When someone swears at me in the midst of accusing me of trying to implement a plan to screw up the lives of millions of children, I don't bother responding with kid gloves. You complained I was caustic in my response, but I think I responded in the tone of what I replied to.

      Here's one foreseeable problem that will cause the program to fail before it really gets started: What if everyone sends their kid to the best school in the city?
      -That school will have more kids then it can handle (but a lot of cash).
      -The other schools won't have money at all.


      For one, to me this is no different than the color of the paper the vouchers are printed on. It's a temporary problem unrelated to the long term effects of the system. It is also a problem where you are listing symptoms that are unrelated to what I said. They are assumptions you have about vouchers that aren't addressed in what I said. You are assuming that the voucher will remove all funding from where the child would have gone. Many (most?) government subsidy programs actually subsidize those that don't need it under the plans to subsidize those that do need it. There's no reason to assume this would be any different. It's only the Republican plans where they punish the public school system by taking the vouchers from the school budgets directly. Being a radical the other way, I made no such assumptions, and that means I haven't considered replies to problems that I haven't created with my voucher program.

      And as for the ramp-up for schools that are too small to handle the influx of students, they should figure it out. They can choose to refuse all vouchers, and thus prevent the problem of having to take everyone (and I suspect that most will do this, at least initially). Then, when they get a good idea of what the demand would actually be, they can plan an expansion to coincide with the acceptance of the first voucher. Because the cost of public school is so much less than private schools, it's possible that many of the exclusive private schools would never accept a voucher. For example, in Texas, they spend about 1/3 on public schools as the tuition for the top private schools in the state. So, if the voucher was required to be payment in full if accepted, the $7k wouldn't cover the $20k tuition, so they wouldn't accept it.

      But it's a logistics issue for the individual schools. I can't possibly solve it for all schools. But I could solve it for any individual school if I had a good idea of the numbers involved (students enrolled, demand, total budget, etc.). The "safe" choice is that they won't take the vouchers and thus won't have any problems at all. When more private schools are created (or change) to take advantage of the vouchers, then the pressure may be on to accept them and that would fix the problem.

      Here is another problem. Traditionally, I believe the whole voucher idea is sham by neo-cons to get public funding for their private schools.

      I believe that to be true. They want the state to give them their $7k to go to a school that costs $20k, so they just pocket the difference, and the exclusive $20 per year elementary school doesn't care because they had a massive wait-list before and after the voucher program and it's just used as a tax-break for the rich and connected that already send their children to private school.

      That's a bad idea, so I made sure that my plan could never have that be the case. That's why they must accept vouchers as payment in full and take everyone. Everyone is on equal ground, much more egalitarian than even the current system.

      Ever notice how the neo-cons (can't we just call them cons or con-men?) whine endlessly about the cost of public schools? The Texas school systems, the one run by Repubilcans in the time Bush was in office, actaully cut per-student funding from 2003 to 2005. It's obvious to me that they are trying to destroy the publ

    89. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by HeckRuler · · Score: 1

      but I think I responded in the tone of what I replied to.

      Now, you see, I swear casually. Fucking kids over really isn't that bad. And it's not directed at you. It's text, you really shouldn't assume tone. But shit happens, I understand.

      It's a temporary problem unrelated to the long term effects of the system.

      I kinda foresaw this argument in my first post. You've got to understand that temporary problems ARE problems. If a program gets off to a bumpy start then people are going to be unhappy with it and axe it before it has a chance to balance itself out. Or change it in ways you don't want. And this goes double if it's a program that not many schools take part in right off the bat.

      I believe "temporary" in this case is at least a couple of years. So if we did try this program, kids would have a turbulent couple of years, or more likely, districts would have to break the rule where they have to accept everyone. Now, there are quite a few ways to delay or offset this turbulent time, and you mentioned a few. But delaying it doesn't really fix the problem.
      Perhaps if you start the school selection process a full year in advance, and each month have parents select a school and publish the results. Hopefully that will speed up the balancing effect.

      You are assuming that the voucher will remove all funding from where the child would have gone

      You're right, I assumed that this voucher program would replace public funding, and would cause schools to compete for students and better themselves. If public funding isn't removed then I'm not sure how this program encourage competition. Please explain.

      You are pedantic ass who should die a horrible death

      It interesting that you can be so aggressive when we're on the same ideological "side" and both want the same thing. I guess that's what makes you "extreme". If this is your normal disposition, you're going to have problems getting people to care about your ideas. And then all your political ideas, stances, and activism will be for not. Seriously bro, try to play nice.

    90. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Getting the fundamentalist nutjobs out of the public schools and into their own little inbred communities where they can't do any harm to the rest of society would just be a bonus, as far as I'm concerned.

      They already have this, its called home schooling.

      The statement that homeschoolers are fundamentalist nutjobs who harm society is wrong. Homeschoolers, by and large, are those who are dissatisfied with the public school system(perhaps because the system is not designed to educate, but rather to dictate) and seek to better their children's education. As others have mentioned, a college degree in education is not necessary to be an effective or excellent teacher, only having a passion for a subject, transferring that passion to the student, and being able to help the student apply that passion to learning.

      I personally am a home schooled senior and am graduating to attend one of the nation's top 10 mathematics universities with significant academic scholarships, and I wouldn't consider myself different from many of the home-schoolers I am friends with(yes, we have friends too!). We have the ability to attend community college classes as many of my friends and I do, and can participate in many extracurricular-yet-educational activities(I contribute to, and am a developer for, severl OSS projects).

      We simply are not fundamentalist nutjobs who harm society; we contribute to it, invariably more than the average public or private schooler.

      Then you aren't the average home schooler.

      I know quite a few home schoolers and most of them use the inadequacy of the public school systems as an excuse to avoid the so called liberal influence on science, history and social studies. All of the ones I have known personally, their parents fit the bill of fundamentalist nutter. As for education, one of them may, take the SAT; but I think she's going to find an art school where that isn't necessary.

    91. Re:Why I still think we need vouchers by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      You're right, I assumed that this voucher program would replace public funding, and would cause schools to compete for students and better themselves. If public funding isn't removed then I'm not sure how this program encourage competition. Please explain.

      I'm unclear where "encourage competition" was a goal of mine. Additionally, I never said it would or wouldn't remove funding. I would assume that it would, but that it would be over some buffered transition time. As you've stated, wide changes in enrollment over very short times are bad for the schools and the students. One thing that hasn't been brought up is the ability to close public schools. Some schools get poor enrollment? Close them, bus the remaining children to other schools. In most cases, there really isn't competition between schools, but instead competition between districts where the public schools in one area all have a similar setup, and only the differences in administrators, teachers, and students make them unique, while each private school has unrelated curriculum, textbooks, and offerings.

      I believe "temporary" in this case is at least a couple of years. So if we did try this program, kids would have a turbulent couple of years, or more likely, districts would have to break the rule where they have to accept everyone.

      Without having people evaluate what the response would be, I can't plan on the best course to fix the "possible" problems. If a poll indicated that no private school would accept them with those restrictions, then the point is moot. They elected to not participate. If some do, or all do, then the results would be different. If the people likely to switch schools are from certain areas, then the effect on the existing public schools would be disproportionate and would have to be handled differently. Depending on the problems with implementation, which can't be gauged until it's in the public eye and evlauated, the problem can't be solved. All that can be done is to discuss some of the issues and some possible ways to address them. You posted issues, I addressed them. I can't "solve" them until it's either in existance, or you define exactly what will happen and I make a plan to fix that. "lots of people will probably change schools" isn't an exact definition. But most of what you've stated could be left to the schools themselves to fix. It's a free market, right? If they choose to operate under those rules, who am I to tell them how to fic any problems that might cause. If they can't fix them, then they don't need to participate. If they want assistance in solving them, then they should ask for it specifically.

      Whether it's a restriction on vouchers so that they are phased in over 20 years, whether it's a lottery so that the school has no control over who attends, but that the lottery caps enrolment so that it doesn't exceeed 110% of the previous years enrollment, whether it's providing additional resources to schools with large jumps in enrolmment, I don't know. I can think of at least 20 different ways to address the problem, but until the patterns of enrollment are more clear and the level of assistance the private schools desire, I can't come up with any plan that will be aceptable. There are hundreds of ways to address it.

      Seriously bro, try to play nice.

      What, the sarcasm meter didn't go off? You had profanity in there telling me to be nice, and so I replied with rude comments. It's funny. Laugh.

      Oh, and so you know, I came up with my support for the voucher program (with restrictions) in response to people proposing vouchers. They want the vouchers to just pay for those already in private schools, essentially a tax break for the rich at the expense of destroying public school (while whining about how it's all a free market, when the public schools are running under different rules). This was a plan conceived of to even out the playing field between private and public schools. Take everyone with a voucher and ne

  10. Ah, jealousy... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    One of the most powerful of human emotions, especially amongst the teaching profession...

  11. CRUISE CONTROL FOR COOL by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    NOOOOOOOO NOT JAIME!!!!11ELEVEN!!!

    wait, what'd he do again?

  12. Quote by imaque · · Score: 1

    "Hey, man. What's Cal-coo-lus?"

  13. This is why we need guns in schools by harrytuttle777 · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    After reading the article, I can only be outraged by Maria Elena Tostado, the administrator who let political expediency outweigh academic legitimacy.I guess the lesson, we should learn from this is that evil wins. I can think of dozens of examples from my own life where the dogs have won.

    The only lesson, that I can learn from this affair, is that we need more guns in schools.

    -Regards.

  14. Token gesture... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...the inner city students are still more likely to end up in jail and drop out of high school. Plus I don't trust the ways tests are administered to these sorts of students. It's easy to fudge the scores for better funding, etc.

  15. Was it wrong of me to hope... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... that William Adama would rally the Galactica staff and Viper pilots with a rousing cry of, "Stand and Deliver!"

  16. Agreed, schools are for dumbing us down by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 2, Interesting

    So true. And it's sad your post got modded down as Troll, since you are 100% right on, and whoever did that is probably caught up in the ideology behind monstrosity that is modern schooling (of course, most private schools are little better). Escalante failed to make large changes and was taken down by the institution because, ultimately, he was doing what should not be done in schools -- get poor people to think and climb out of their assigned class in life. More supportive links:

    Gatto:
        "Dumbing Us Down: The Hidden Curriculum of Compulsory Schooling"
        http://www.amazon.com/Dumbing-Down-Curriculum-Compulsory-Schooling/dp/086571231X
        http://www.newciv.org/whole/schoolteacher.txt
        http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/16a.htm
    """
    Before you can reach a point of effectiveness in defending your own children or your principles against the assault of blind social machinery, you have to stop conspiring against yourself by attempting to negotiate with a set of abstract principles and rules which, by its nature, cannot respond. Under all its disguises, that is what institutional schooling is, an abstraction which has escaped its handlers. Nobody can reform it. First you have to realize that human values are the stuff of madness to a system; in systems-logic the schools we have are already the schools the system needs; the only way they could be much improved is to have kids eat, sleep, live, and die there.
    """

    Illich:
        http://www.infed.org/thinkers/et-illic.htm
        http://reactor-core.org/deschooling.html

    John Holt:
        http://www.holtgws.com/

    Collections of links by me on this:
        http://listcultures.org/pipermail/p2presearch_listcultures.org/2009-October/005379.html
        http://listcultures.org/pipermail/p2presearch_listcultures.org/2009-November/005584.html
        http://listcultures.org/pipermail/p2presearch_listcultures.org/2009-November/006005.html

    Why not just give the school money directly to the parents as they see fit to take care of their children? One proposal (by me):
        http://www.pdfernhout.net/towards-a-post-scarcity-new-york-state-of-mind.html

    --
    A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
  17. Some of his achievements by Subm · · Score: 4, Informative

    It would be hard to overstate the impact Escalante has made on the education reform movement in the U.S. He and Rafe Esquith were the first to prove very publicly and definitively that demography is not destiny and that inner-city kids, with great teaching and high expectations, could achieve at high levels.

    At his peak, Escalante had 187 students at one time sitting for the Calculus AP exam — and his students accounted for ONE-THIRD of all Mexican-Americans passing the exam in the country.

    1. Re:Some of his achievements by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      At his peak, Escalante had 187 students at one time sitting for the Calculus AP exam — and his students accounted for ONE-THIRD of all Mexican-Americans passing the exam in the country.

      I know it's a bit of a rant, but Mexicans ARE Americans regardless of which side of the border they are on, so saying "Mexican-American" is redundant. In addition the phrase "Mexican-American" indicates a natural born Mexican citizen who has come to the US (since most people do assume America=US), so you could have a white, black, or asian person who is a "Mexican-American". The term you should have used is "Hispanic" since that indicates ethnicity as opposed to country of origin.

  18. Exactly by DesScorp · · Score: 1

    I don't quite understand why you're being modded troll when critics of the system from both right and left agree that public schools aren't so much focused on education as they are on producing "useful people"... to employers, government, etc. As much as conservative groups support things like charter schools, minority families... traditionally loyal Democratic voters... support them even more, because despite ever increasing dollars on public schools, the public system isn't getting it done with their kids. Washington D.C. schools spend more per pupil than just about anywhere else, and yet have among the worst scores and graduation rates.

    --
    Life is hard, and the world is cruel
    1. Re:Exactly by osgeek · · Score: 1

      [...] right and left agree that public schools aren't so much focused on education as they are on producing "useful people"... to employers, government, etc. [...]

      Don't attribute to malice (motive) what can be explained through stupidity. There's no subversive "They Live" plot to create citizens for some later purpose. Public schools are simply acting in as lazy and self-interested a manner as possible in a system that doesn't allow for the punishing of poor performance or reward of excellence. Having the kids be good automatons makes sitting in a class all day easier for the teachers and the administration, so that's what they focus on.

      Escalante was such a phenomenal individual that with the help of a rare principal who gave a shit, was able to go against the current and achieve something outstanding. In a world with competition for school funding based upon academic performance, dollars would have went to Escalante, giving him more latitude to do things his way. Instead, his great achievements were snuffed out by a system that is fundamentally broken and doesn't reward greatness.

      The linked article says it well:

      In the real world, those who provide a service can usually find a way to get it to those who want it, even if their current employer disapproves. If someone feels that he can build a better mousetrap than his employer wants to make, he can find a way to make it, market it, and perhaps put his former boss out of business. Public school teachers lack that option.

      There are very few ways to compete for education dollars without being part of the government school system

      Monopolies are evil. A Monopoly called AT&T was no better for consumers than the monopoly called "The US Government" is for citizens or the "State Board of Education" is for students. Fight monopolies in all forms.

  19. sadham&ghonneria revisited..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    deepending on where one is, it looks just like that, except on a much grander scale.

    the manufactured 'weather' appears to be making things at least worse.

    just like military 'school', everybody must be punished for the misdeeds of a few.

    fortunately for many, it has been said that the creators love the least of us the most, it's an upside down kingdumb, the meek shall.. etc..., stuff like that. makes one think there'll be plenty of 'stuff' left after the big flash. see you there?

  20. Teachers should be the celebrities by Dan667 · · Score: 1

    It would be a worth while effort to increase teacher pay and encourage more great teachers instead of spending it all on the same books every couple of years and other crap. Kids actually learn from great Teachers.

    1. Re:Teachers should be the celebrities by Maximum+Prophet · · Score: 1

      Then where would you get the money to pay the football coaches?

      --
      All ideas^H^H^H^H^Hprocesses in this post are Patent Pending. (as well as the process of patenting all postings)
    2. Re:Teachers should be the celebrities by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

      First define what makes a "great teacher". In my mind, it is not defined by how well you know the subject you are teaching as it is by how well you know your target audience (students and their parents). Escalante's gift was not just that he had a passion for math, but that he was successfully able to transfer that passion to so many kids. This was helped by the fact that many of them could relate to him, but I think that anybody that has a passion for teaching, respects their audience, and doesn't try to bullshit them could achieve similar results.

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    3. Re:Teachers should be the celebrities by amliebsch · · Score: 1

      The vast majority of school spending is *already* on salary and benefits. In my local district, it's upwards of 80% of the entire operating budget. The average annual cost for a teacher's salary and benefits is over $100,000. Meanwhile, the schools are failing miserably.

      --
      If you don't know where you are going, you will wind up somewhere else.
  21. Órale, vato! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Wassapenin? Dónde está la biblioteca?

  22. "Racial Makeup" by DesScorp · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Why would anyone be surprised? Look at the racial makeup of California. Except for a few pockets of whites in Northern California, the state is almost overrun with Blacks and Mexicans.

    While I know the poster was trolling, his comments are in stark contrast to Escalante's own work: anyone, regardless of skin color or income, can better themselves if they're willing to work hard enough and dedicate themselves in the long run. Escalante proved it, and he proved it with student AP calculus scores eventually outpacing even the very rich schools like Beverly Hills. It's shameful that some of his own fellow teachers thought he was being "cruel" to Hispanic kids by expecting excellence, and that he was risking their "self-esteem". Well, those teachers chased him off, and now I wonder how high the esteem of those students is now that they're no longer reaching the academic heights that Escalante took them to?

    --
    Life is hard, and the world is cruel
    1. Re:"Racial Makeup" by ColdWetDog · · Score: 2, Informative

      regardless of skin color or income, can better themselves if they're willing to work hard enough and dedicate themselves in the long run

      Sort of. From TFA, it appears that on top of Escalante's skill at teaching, he was also a good organizer and coach. He developed a system and an infrastructure to get the students the basic skills they needed and to allow them to continue along. Even if you're willing to work hard, if you don't have an environment that supports the work and allows it to grow, then it's going to be the extraordinarily rare individual that can succeed.

      What he did was much more akin to developing a successful sports program than an academic program. He had to coach his players to get the best out of them, but he couldn't do it on his own. He needed other teachers to help develop basic skills and and, essentially, money to pay for rooms, equipment, etc. As a country, we seem to understand the sports franchise analogy and support it with enormous resources (money). Corporations and donors give professional and collegiate sports franchises big bucks (basically in hopes of advertising exposure).

      Let's work this through.... Corporate sponsorship of academic programs. IBM math teams. Barnes and Nobel language programs. Microsoft, ummm, ethics courses. That's the ticket.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    2. Re:"Racial Makeup" by Jaysyn · · Score: 1

      Let's work this through.... Corporate sponsorship of academic programs. IBM math teams. Barnes and Nobel language programs. Microsoft, ummm, ethics courses. That's the ticket.

      One of these things is not like the others.

      --
      There is a war going on for your mind.
  23. Died, not Dies by AP31R0N · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Jaime died just the once. Not habitually.

    --
    Utilizing the synergization of benchmark e-solutions to pre-workaround action items!
  24. Wait... What?! by RobotRunAmok · · Score: 3, Insightful

    subsidizing those who already send their children to parochial schools.

    The parents of the kids in parochial school pay twice: once for their own kids' tuition, once again for their neighbors' kids via the school and property taxes. The typical voucher plan doesn't "force a taxpayer to pay for religious education," it allows a taxpayer to pay for what he actually uses.

    Meanwhile, if all the kids who were in parochial school were to leave parochial school and enter the public system (into which their parents had already paid their share) that public system would collapse. Even with the "extra money" coming in from the parents of the kids who are not educated publicly, the public system is on the verge of financial, educational, and architectural collapse. You should thank God (erm, sorry) every day that the "religious kids" are not in the public system; the public system couldn't handle it.

    1. Re:Wait... What?! by AK+Marc · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The parents of the kids in parochial school pay twice: once for their own kids' tuition, once again for their neighbors' kids via the school and property taxes. The typical voucher plan doesn't "force a taxpayer to pay for religious education," it allows a taxpayer to pay for what he actually uses.

      If you thought that, then you'd be petitioning for childless people to be exempt from property tax. Public schools spread the burden across all. Their status as a parent or not is irrelevant, so they don't "pay twice" for the same thing. They pay once for educating everyone, before and after they have children, and the point is that an educated populous is productive. Regardless of whether they have kids, that's the goal of that. Second, once they do have kids, they have the choice of enrolling them for free into the institutions set up that they vote on. If they are so bad, why aren't they voting in better people? Why aren't they involved in the decision process? Instead, they want to take their ball and go home.

      But the problem is that the voucher systems I've seen are all designed not to help children, but to provide tax cuts for the rich and harm anyone in public schools (while not improving private schools at all). If you've seen one that doesn't do this, please enlighten me.

      Vouchers should be made available. And any school that takes a voucher should be required to take vouchers for payment-in-full and be required to take all applicants. But that'll never happen because the people against vouchers won't see what good they can do when done right (because they can do lots of harm when done wrong) and those that want them don't want to help the kids, but they want a tax break and to harm the public schools.

    2. Re:Wait... What?! by Bemopolis · · Score: 1

      So, since I have no children, am I paying infinite times?

      Not that I'm complaining — I'd rather pay more in school taxes now than more in prison taxes later.

      --
      "I guess the moral of the story is, don't paint your airship with rocket fuel." -- Addison Bain
    3. Re:Wait... What?! by c_jonescc · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If you thought that, then you'd be petitioning for childless people to be exempt from property tax. Public schools spread the burden across all. Their status as a parent or not is irrelevant, so they don't "pay twice" for the same thing. They pay once for educating everyone, before and after they have children, and the point is that an educated populous is productive.

      Exactly. I find it far more rational to stop thinking about "my" taxes. I'm not purchasing individual goods with taxes. Whether I drive a car or not has little impact on the need for roads, as an example. There are certain needs we have as a society (I would include public education in that), and that is what "our" taxes are for. It stops being "your" money when you make your contribution to those social necessities via taxation.

      You're free to argue that there is waste in our system, or that tax money goes to things that are not contributive to societal living, or that the tax law is imbalanced in some way, but none of that changes the fact that the tax money is not yours to be used solely on the parts of group living that you feel you take advantage of.

      --
      Getting diabetes AND salmonella would be a bad weekend.
    4. Re:Wait... What?! by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Of course, people without children in school are paying the taxes too! Maybe us single children should get vouchers we can spend too?

      Yes, this is a silly idea. It's also silly to think that the local taxes should only be paid by those who get a direct tangible benefit from them. You're not paying the taxes for your own children to go to school, you're paying the taxes so that the community's children can go to school (including your own if you have them). People in the US have generally agreed that they like to live in societies where most people are educated, including poor people.

      This is also why a voucher would never be enough to pay for a full education at a private school. Private schools are expensive because each student has to pay full tuition without the financial support from the entire community. People that can't afford private schools without a voucher are unlikely to be able to afford it even with the vouchers. So another reason why people don't like vouchers is that they seem like a taxpayer funded discount coupon for people who can already afford alternative schools.

      Yes I agree that our taxes are probably not being used wisely and being spent on institutions that could do much better. But that's a separate issue.

    5. Re:Wait... What?! by Shadowlore · · Score: 0

      Several of your assertions are unfounded, despite the argument itself being near-sound.

      First, I am one of those you speak of. We *are* the ones trying to be involved. To the extent that that has expressed as a "reason" against vouchers - we will not be in the public schools anymore being involved and that will make them even worse than they already are. However, we run into a problem many here can identify with. We are fighting against a well funded and legally entrenched and protected class - the (so called) teacher's unions. Said groups are supported by not only tax dollars (a travesty on it's own IMO) but by the companies that make products that could go into the mandated schools if supported by the teachers unions they then fund - much like politicians only messier.

      Yes we are taking our ball and going home. And while it may shock you, that i snot only a valid tactic, it is working. I'm in a state with a high and still growing percentage of home-schooled children. As upset parents *in* the system, we were isolated and marginalized "dissidents". Now, as a separate group no longer participating, we are a distinct demographic. Plus, the school system a couple decades ago decided that schools will get funded based on the student-days - the number of students per-day and the cumulative total. So a school with 180 days of perfect attendance of 100 students would have 18000 days of student attendance.

      By us taking our collective balls and going home, we wind up in fact "taking" money from the school we leave - and it is having an effect. Schools are beginning to realize they do in fact need to perform better and several are. As a result those schools are now among the "nice" schools.

      This is key, and key to vouchers causing positive improvement. Do you think McDonalds would care about your complaints regarding their service (or lack thereof) to quality (or lack thereof) if they were still going to get your money anyway? If you do, feel free to change your name to Pollyanna. ;)

      Now, onto your false assertions. The widespread belief that schools are paid for via property tax is false not only in my state but in many. Income and sales taxes account for the majority of funding for schools, and a majority portion of the remainder is from the federal government - which is not collecting property tax (yet). Funding from property tax is a small portion of school system funding. Thus, your assertion that it is "shared equally" is false on the face. Thus, it really is the "rich" paying for it.

      Even if it were, the assertion would be irrelevant. We do not benefit equally from it. It is rather disproportionate in outcomes because so far at least the powers that be have not managed to provide the same outcomes.

      We don't want to harm the public schools, and they don't need any help in that department anyway. It is hypocritical (and possibly mean-spirited) to say that those who want to pay for their kids' education are just trying to have more money but those who want their kids' education to paid for by other people are somehow virtuous.

      The existing system is broken, completely. By way of example, in my state our budget doubled over the course of a few years. The "reason" trotted out was that kids in school doubled in that time. It was a lie. Our system is require to publish those numbers, and they hide it well on the site - and post after the political season is over. Yet the numbers show that the net increase in kids attending school had increased by under 200. In an entire state. That isn't even ONE school. The number of school-age children did climb quite a bit in that period of time, but the actual enrollments barely rose - barely a percentage. Certainly a couple hundred wouldn't justify the hundreds of millions of increase that was blamed on student enrollment increases.

      If a private system did such things they would be sued, and would lose. But the courts have held so far that despite requiring your kids to be there for "an education" the state doesn't

      --
      My Suburban burns less gasoline than your Prius.
    6. Re:Wait... What?! by AK+Marc · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Now, onto your false assertions. The widespread belief that schools are paid for via property tax is false not only in my state but in many. Income and sales taxes account for the majority of funding for schools, and a majority portion of the remainder is from the federal government - which is not collecting property tax (yet). Funding from property tax is a small portion of school system funding. Thus, your assertion that it is "shared equally" is false on the face. Thus, it really is the "rich" paying for it.

      Non sequitur. I never claimed that they were distributed equally. In fact, even if just property tax, it would be progressive because rich use more land than the poor. So "equally" was stated by no one, and if I did use such wording it was to indicate that the burden was shared by all, not held to the same dollar amount.

      The manner in which the funding is obtained is also irrelevant. The majority of property tax in some places goes to schools, and Texas claims that half of all school funding is "local" but I don't know if that would include federal grants given directly to local schools.

      But none of that contradicts what I said. Please quote my assertion that's false which you addressed.

      We don't want to harm the public schools, and they don't need any help in that department anyway. It is hypocritical (and possibly mean-spirited) to say that those who want to pay for their kids' education are just trying to have more money but those who want their kids' education to paid for by other people are somehow virtuous.

      Again, a non sequitur. I explicitly stated that the act of "public education" is irrelevant to how a person educates their children or even whether they have any children at all. "Public education" is what you are being taxed for, not paying for the right to send your own children to public school.

      Your argument is like saying that welfare is broken because the only ones who can afford to pay in are the people who aren't using it. The act of paying in and the act of using the service are unrelated (well, not necessarily for unemployment and SS, but for most all other services it's true). How can I say this to say it so that you understand my point? It was declared that having an educated populous was important, and as such, education is provided for free. That's irrelevant to what you do with your own children. One is a public need and the other is a private need. You don't petition to get your police taxes refunded because you bought a gun for yourself, or try to get a refund on the fire department taxes because you didn't have a fire that year. It's simply not done as a "you pay this in taxes, you get this benefit directly back." Not for schools. Not for the police. Not for the fire department. Not for welfare.

      You've seen very few actual proposals on vouchers. I've never seen one that could be classified as a tax break for the rich. Why? All the proposals I've seen are a flat per-child amount, not tied to income at all.

      Right. And none of them covered the price of the public education, not to mention the much higher price of a private education. So someone who is offered a voucher would still have to come up with money. For the private school I attended, the proposed vouchers for Texas would have covered less than 25% of the cost. And the private schools would have had the same autonimy as before, so they would do as they have done, take who was already enrolled and only fill the small (about 5%) drop out rate (drop out of the school, like moving and such, not actual drop out as in never finishing). So the only people who'd be able to use them would be the people going there already, and they were overwhelmingly rich.

      It wasn't a "if you make more, you get more" scheme. But if you looked at who would actually be using the vouchers and the effect on their finances, it was a tax rebate for the rich.

      Thus, we would have a "regressive" tax cut in the sen

  25. Way to miss my point completely, dude by spun · · Score: 2, Informative

    You, uh, might want to reread my post. Don't just stop when you begin to get angry at what you think I'm saying. Read the last paragraph.

    --
    - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
  26. Garfield and Math by Jodka · · Score: 1

    the advanced math 'pipeline' program at Garfield High

    There is another connection between Garfield High and math. The eponymous president, James A. Garfield, discovered a novel proof of the Pythagorean theorem.

    --
    Ceci n'est pas une signature.
  27. come again? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I believe Olmos and Escalante were both Americans. You can be American and still be Hispanic. You can only be both American and Mexican if you have dual citizenship.

    You can only be a citizen of the United States of America and a Mexican citizen if you have dual citizenship. Plenty of people of "Mexican" decent are US citizens, and some (very few) vice-versa. They are all "Americans".

  28. One bizarre danger of vouchers by postermmxvicom · · Score: 3, Informative

    I personally know a man who has run a private school for 40+ years. Where he lives, there used to be a voucher program. Many private schools went through the hoops to restructure to qualify. In then end, the schools that accepted the vouchers had to close.

    Why? Well, eventually the voucher program was brought to court. The schools had grown dependent on the voucher program. The families had grown dependent. When the money was gone, they all had to shut down. Except for the schools which had avoided the voucher program.

    --
    One last thing: Sometimes I wonder; "Is that someone's signature? Or do they type that at the end of each post?"
  29. Re:Public schools (you'll never know) by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 1, Interesting

    While you have a point, by your own logic, you'll never know how much happier your life or our society might have been if you had not been drilled for thirteen or more years in:
    * only doing what someone in authority tells you to do;
    * only socializing with people of a similar age, similar mental abilities, and similar social class;
    * doing stuff no matter how stupid or pointless you thought it was just because some authority told you to do it or else;
    * had more chances to think up your own things to do with people you picked;
    * had more chances to work with both your hands and brain;
    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/24/magazine/24labor-t.html?_r=1
    * and so on.

    See New York State Teacher of the Year John Taylor Gatto:
    "The 7-Lesson Schoolteacher"
    http://www.newciv.org/whole/schoolteacher.txt
    """
    Look again at the seven lessons of schoolteaching: confusion, class assignment, dulled responses, emotional and intellectual dependency, conditional self-esteem, surveillance -- all of these things are good training for permanent underclasses, people derived forever of finding the center of their own special genius. And in later years it became the training shaken loose from even its own original logic -- to regulate the poor; since the 1920s the growth of the school bureaucracy and the less visible growth of a horde of industries that profit from schooling just exactly as it is, has enlarged this institution's original grasp to where it began to seize the sons and daughters of the middle classes.
    """

    See also his:
    "State Controlled Consciousness"
    http://www.the-open-boat.com/Gatto.html
    """
    If your kids do badly, it does not mean that they're bad readers or anything else. It means they haven't been obedient to the drills the state set down and they're marked for further treatment later on with a mark to be excluded from responsible jobs. Perhaps some way is to be excluded from the colleges that lead to responsible jobs, in other ways from the licenses that lead to responsible jobs.
    This was ALL worked out. It didn't evolve by a lot of rational people saying we'll take this this and this from the past, then the next generation says we'll take this this and this. This was set down largely in a handful of places. Prussia was perhaps the most prominent of those places. The Prussian experiment leapt into the United States almost immediately in the 1840's. Leapt into the United States; its propagandists covered the country here. Its backers, its financial backers set up the most important teacher training institutes and then financed those institutes and then no one was allowed to become a teacher who didn't more or less subscribe to the fact that experts could create a curriculum and pedagogues could administer it.
    Well, that's exactly what Horace, the Roman essayist, talked about in several of his essays. He said, "the master creates the lessons, the pedagogue (the teacher) administers the lessons." But if you find the teacher creating the lessons or deviating from the direction the lessons are headed in, you get rid of the pedagogue.
    """

    And that last is part of what happened to Jaime Escalante. While he may not have understood the bigger picture, he deviated from the lessons, and was ultimately replaced, whatever the results.

    As Gatto says at the end there:
    """
    A lot of the constraints on us, a lot of the ah, ah - strings that hold us like puppets are really inventions of our own mind. I'm not saying that there aren't armies and police and various ways to punish deviants. But there isn't any way to punish a LARGE NUMBER of deviants. There isn't any way to do that. It's too expensive to even try to do that, unless you can colonize the minds of children

    --
    A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
  30. Truly a Cylon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So wait, it was this guy that turned out to be the final one? I thought that show was over.

  31. I'll agree to an extent. by jd · · Score: 1

    There are certainly other factors beyond merely the style of teaching. Schools that have adopted Jamie Oliver's suggested food program have shown test scores in exams and intelligence tests rise whilst illness levels fall. However, given that all other things remained essentially constant, Escalante certainly demonstrated the impact of teaching methods. If you add in effective streaming, sane textbooks and other refinements, one wonders just how far education could go. (If you go by the change in identified child prodigies as a fraction of world population, the number is about a third what it was in the 1700s. Given how much more we know about child psychology, how much more available textbooks are and how much better our ability to disseminate information on talented people is, I'd have expected the fraction of identified geniuses to have risen. Given that our knowledge of nutrition and its impact on the development of the brain has also improved, I'd have expected the level of talent as an absolute to have also risen.)

    --
    It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    1. Re:I'll agree to an extent. by socz · · Score: 1

      I wasn't going to reply to anything here but here's my take on it: "Schools don't want to find and push geniuses, they want kids to conform and be exactly like those next to them."

      I couldn't even start to count how many times I've been told that things are to be done as they are done because that's how it is - regardless that a method I use is better. The sad part is that the "Technical" school I went to also had this attitude... and it wasn't until speaking frankly with other teachers in other "technologies" that they said the teachers who gave me problems didn't want to be out-shined. So of course they're going to shoot down ideas that could be better than their own.

      But this also carries into the work place. Why do I have to have log a log of a log? 3 times the work and time for something that just isn't necessary. But because of how people are - and the majorities willingness to accept without questioning, things just don't (and can't) change.

      --
      My abilities are only limited by my imagination
    2. Re:I'll agree to an extent. by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Our knowledge of nutrition really isn't much better than in the 1700s, judging by peoples' waistlines. After all, look at all the crap put into today's manufactured foods: HFCS, trans fats, hydrogenated oils, MSG, artificial flavors and colors, etc.

      There were probably more prodigies (as a fraction of the population) in the 1700s than now because people (esp. wealthier people) ate much healthier food than they do now.

    3. Re:I'll agree to an extent. by jd · · Score: 1

      I completely agree with you and have had similar experiences.

      What you are describing is how the "normal world" is depicted in the British miniseries "Codename: Icarus". (Its depiction of how easy it would be for someone to abuse/misuse the "genius world" when geniuses are pushed to conform by the "normal world" is instructive.) It's a nice piece of dystopian speculative fiction that cuts rather closer to real life than I'd like.

      Regardless of what an ideal solution might be, I'd argue that since conformity is what is "expected", the simplest solution is to simply make the granularity small enough that conformity ceases to be a problem. If schools split each year into 5 or 7 streams, where membership of a stream reflected both ability in the subject and who worked well with whom (including which kids worked well with which teacher), the variation in a stream should be sufficiently small that conformity within the stream isn't distinguishable from working one's preferred way at one's optimal pace.

      I think Escalante has demonstrated that the current solution is sub-optimal for everyone. It seems unreasonable (based on experience and common sense) to assume that the same optimization will work for everyone, ergo it would follow that some form of classification and selective optimization is the preferred path. His solution is clearly optimal for some of those classifications, but may not be optimal for all. If you like, apply the lessons learned from compilers and diffserv.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
  32. Going beyond vouchers by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Let's just give the school money directly to the parents instead of schools, as I suggest here in some detail:
        "Towards a Post-Scarcity New York State of Mind (through homeschooling)"
        http://www.pdfernhout.net/towards-a-post-scarcity-new-york-state-of-mind.html
    """
    New York State current spends roughly 20,000 US dollars per schooled child per year to support the public school system. This essay suggests that the same amount of money be given directly to the family of each homeschooled child. Further, it suggests that eventually all parents would get this amount, as more and more families decide to homeschool because it is suddenly easier financially. It suggests why ultimately this will be a win/win situation for everyone involved (including parents, children, teachers, school staff, other people in the community, and even school administrators :-) because ultimately local schools will grow into larger vibrant community learning centers open to anyone in the community and looking more like college campuses. New York State could try this plan incrementally in a few different school districts across the state as pilot programs to see how it works out. This may seem like an unlikely idea to be adopted at first, but at least it is a starting point for building a positive vision of the future for all children in all our communities.
    """

    We should also implement a basic income (social security and medicare for all, without age limits or a means test) for everyone as a human right, while we are at it:
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income
    If every person got a basic income, everyone could afford to purchase the education they wanted from the market.

    --
    A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
    1. Re:Going beyond vouchers by wurp · · Score: 1

      If every person got a basic income, everyone could afford to purchase the education they wanted from the market.

      Or they could pocket most or all of the money and let the kid learn little or nothing. People often don't do a good job of acting in their own best interest.

      For example, any of those people could already spend money on their children's education. What makes you think that if they had more money they would spend it differently?

      (I apologize for any antagonistic tone; I just really disagree with you about this. I actually had already friended you because I enjoy reading your point of view.)

    2. Re:Going beyond vouchers by yurtinus · · Score: 1

      Can't get to your site from work, so I'll work from your summary... I think you're operating under a fallacy that parents are in general better suited to educate their kids than trained teachers. It may work fine for elementary education, but very few individuals are suited to teach high school level courses. Education is simply not that highly regarded in most communities that parents taking this income would do more than the bare minimum and keep the change. I'm also finding it difficult to follow your conclusion that with widespread homeschooling, the schools would somehow become big hubs of learning. Instead I see local schools decline with the drop in student enrollment and subsequent operating funds.

      As for basic income... I don't see how that can be implemented without eventually becoming a system where the producers of society don't end up carrying the weight of those that don't.

      --
      +1 Disagree
    3. Re:Going beyond vouchers by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the friending. No doubt some small percentage of parents are "bad people". Still, as is suggested here by Raymond and Dorothy Moore who studied this:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeschooling
      """
      Their primary assertion was that the bonds and emotional development made at home with parents during these years produced critical long term results that were cut short by enrollment in schools, and could neither be replaced nor afterward corrected in an institutional setting. Recognizing a necessity for early out-of-home care for some children - particularly special needs and starkly impoverished children, and children from exceptionally inferior homes- they maintained that the vast majority of children are far better situated at home, even with mediocre parents, than with the most gifted and motivated teachers in a school setting (assuming that the child has a gifted and motivated teacher). They described the difference as follows: "This is like saying, if you can help a child by taking him off the cold street and housing him in a warm tent, then warm tents should be provided for all children - when obviously most children already have even more secure housing."
      """

      Also, let's assume there are some bad parents around. There kids are going to get messed up really bad whether their children go to public school or not. But, consider if all their neighbors are at home and taking good care of their kids, with lower stress from not having financial worries. Then at least there are a lot of healthy families around to help out with the kids from the totally dysfunctional families just to be neighborly.

      The current system says, all children need to be in prison during the day because some few parents are bad people. Is that fair to everyone else? By that logic, maybe the entire USA population should be sent to prison just to prevent some crimes... Of course, a lot of crimes happen in prisons, too; strangely enough, for all the guards...

      If parents are unable to make good decisions, why let them pick the school district they will live in? Why let them pick the jobs they work in? Why let the pick the foods their family will eat? (Food probably has a bigger impact on a child's mental development and behavior than school.) Why let the parents pick the care they drive? Why let the parents pick if they should have a TV or access to the internet? And so on...

      Do people do a good job acting in their own interest? I agree, often they do not. Here is part of why (pleasure traps and supernormal stimuli promoted in part for the profits of a very few):
      http://www.amazon.com/Pleasure-Trap-Mastering-Undermines-Happiness/dp/1570671508
      http://www.amazon.com/Supernormal-Stimuli-Overran-Evolutionary-Purpose/dp/039306848X
      http://www.amazon.com/War-Play-Dilemma-Childhood-Education/dp/080774638X
      http://www.amazon.com/So-Sexy-Soon-Sexualized-Childhood/dp/0345505077

      Also, consider, these parents who can't make good decision. Aren't most of them the product of compulsory schooling? What does that say about the ultimate value of compulsory schooling?

      But with that said, we can try to create a society that helps people make better choices (like by regulating deceptive advertising or subsidizing healthy activities), rather than forcing people into prison to "protect" them from themselves.

      Anyway, as for money, ultimately, giving school funds to parents is just a stepping stone. I'd suggest the better approach in the long term in the USA would be one-half the US GDP spent on a "basic income" (so

      --
      A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
    4. Re:Going beyond vouchers by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 1

      If you trust kids to learn, and trust parents to usually have their kids' best interests at heart, then you can see that parents of older children can hire tutors, acquire learning materials, visit homeschool resources centers, and so on, to create good learning experiences. Here is a labor of love by Salman Khan over the past few years to create 1000 educational videos that step-by-step cover most of the information about math and science most kids would ever learn in high school:
      http://www.khanacademy.org/

      The fact is, as John Holt or John Taylor Gatto have said (both celebrated teachers with decades of classroom experience), most of what teachers know is how to manage a classroom of twenty children of roughly the same age and background and how to maintain discipline in the room. That's it. That is 90% of what most teachers have been taught. And they do it in all sorts of ways (including things like cutting sarcasm). Some teachers know more, like Jaime Escalante. Most do no.

      Here is a study that shows that not only do most elementary school teachers know next-to-nothing about math, but the less math kids are taught in school, the better they are at it:
      "When Less is More: The Case for Teaching Less Math in Schools"
      http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/freedom-learn/201003/when-less-is-more-the-case-teaching-less-math-in-schools

      Kids should be learning because they want to, not because they are forced to. For example, a person of any age can learn to read in about 50 contact hours if they really want to, or a school system can spend thousands of hours trying to pound literacy into a child and still produce functional illiterates (as is the case with many US high school graduates). The same goes for many other subjects.

      The fact is, when someone learns math or chemistry, especially today with so many great video resources,
      http://www.learner.org/resources/browse.html
      almost all of the learning is done by kids themselves. Plus, parents can learn together with kids. And kids can learn together with other kids at the local library or through the internet. And old school buildings could be repurposed as learning centers.

      Can this all be better? Sure. Let's put learning resource centers (or just better libraries) on every street corner, where anyone can go there at any time to get help learning whatever they want to learn about, whether reading, chemistry, carpentry, or cooking.

      So, let's say that some parents send their kids to the cheapest private school and "keep the change". Are most kids going to be much worse off than they are now? About half of all kids in the USA can't even graduate from high school for one reason or another. Could it be that much worse?

      Also, see my other comment in this thread.

      One thing to watch out for. Like most people in the USA (myself included), you've been exposed to decades of propaganda by schools that schools are the solution (and the only solution) to making society work. What if some of that was self-serving?

      Also, even assuming what you said was true, that you need some "specialist" to teach you chemistry (my kid and I just watched entire "The World of Chemistry" series at Learner.org, essentially with a Nobel Prize winning society as our chemistry "teacher"), what other lessons are teachers teaching that you don't want your kid to learn?
      "The 7-Lesson Schoolteacher"
      http://www.newciv.org/whole/schoolteacher.txt
      """
      Look again at the seven lessons of schoolteaching: confusion, class assignment, dulled responses, emotional and intellectual dependency, conditional self-esteem, surveillance -- all of these things are good training fo

      --
      A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
    5. Re:Going beyond vouchers by yurtinus · · Score: 1

      This all sounds great and it would be fantastic if the world could work this way - but it doesn't. A few middle and upper class families might have the time and motivation to pull this off, but most people today are too busy to home school and simply cannot afford to buy learning materials or hire tutors. Yes, most parents have their children's best interests in mind, but those interests are not always education. In addition, you are completely ignoring the lower class where it is impossible to find the time to verify kids are even doing their homework while you work two jobs.

      You present a puppies and rainbows situation which would be great if it could happen, but that simply is not how people work.

      --
      +1 Disagree
    6. Re:Going beyond vouchers by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 1

      Except for the point that if families had that much money, the parents would not have to work that much (not even one job), and so would have time to homeschool. If you had three kids, and lived in NYS where US$20,000 is spent per kid per year, a working class family with three kids would have US$60,000 a year just to stay home with the kids and homeschool. And, at this point, there are lots of free educational materials on the internet; examples:
          http://www.khanacademy.org/
          http://www.learner.org/resources/browse.html

      Maybe I'm presenting "puppies and rainbows", but it is a lot better than the dystopia outlined here (given that the value of all human labor is rapidly declining from automation, better design, and voluntary social networks):
          http://www.marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm

      --
      A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
    7. Re:Going beyond vouchers by rhakka · · Score: 1

      I just saw this post and it's very interesting. In fact I find most of your posts very interesting.

      but there is a critical flaw in your reasoning. GDP is based on the productivity of a population. If you give everyone a basic income, such that they do not have to work, many simple won't. I would daresay most. why would I work when I could instead stay home with my kids?

      and thus, GDP falls. i would expect far below the level required to sustain the basic income.

      right? People aren't just going to work 30 or 40 hour weeks for fun. Not when they could instead be having fun with their families.

    8. Re:Going beyond vouchers by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 1

      Thanks. The main issue that matters with a "basic income" is that enough is produced and distributed for most everyone to be fairly happy. You are right that GDP might fall if people no longer were trying to achieve happiness through stuff instead of relationships and experiences. But overall, that might not be a bad thing. Still, as you point out, any system would need to adjust for that over time. Consider that the US GDP has grown 50% since around 1995. So, even if it dropped in half, we'd be back to an economy that was the size of 1995, but with most people enjoying life a lot more. Is that such a terrible thing?

      --
      A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
    9. Re:Going beyond vouchers by rhakka · · Score: 1

      No, but my premise is that far less than 50% of people would choose to work if they did not have to. Especially for the kind of money you are talking about.

      I work very hard for an income that, currently (in todays economy) is a bit less than the $6k/month you talked about. In fact, that's over the median family income in my state (maine, something like 40k last I checked). I love what I do but I am only working, ultimately, to guarantee my own security and future and that of my family at a somewhat "comfortable" level. If that's all guaranteed... well, I might volunteer, or go start a free tai chi studio instead, since I would have no need for additional income, I could do it for free. if you propel me to a stress-free level of income with no work required, I'm not materialistic and I'm not totally driven by ego. You would then remove any need I have for work.

      I don't think I'm in the minority there. I think most people would stop or dramatically scale back their productivity... not 50%, but far more. And I need to point out: I'm an entrepreneur. I don't mind working hard. I don't mind taking risks for some benefit. Heck, I work harder than most just because I like to do a very good job if I'm going to put time into doing something (and if I started a free tai chi school, I'd work very hard at that). I have to be one of the last ones who would opt out of a labor pool.

      Also, don't forget our population has grown 20% since 1990. GDP probably should at least keep pace with population growth.

      I'd prefer to simply see single payer health care, single payer college/educational opportunities as long as you keep your grades up, and WIC-style childhood nutrition programs. Even playing field for everyone, basic needs met. I would pay large taxes for those benefits to be available to all... as long as I could still try to build something new and receive benefit from that. I have a 50% tax rate in mind as a psychological figure I would be comfortable with. I half work directly for me and half work for a stable, productive, happy society to live in.

      If you were going to go "basic income" route, you would also have to have forced labor of some minimal level to guarantee sufficient production. And if you did that... well, now you're in a totalitarian regime very reminiscent of several communist countries... and it didn't work so well.

      I'm not a fear mongering anti-socialist I hope I have established. But I don't think outright communism works either. I do think a strongly regulated, capitalistic system with extensive social support is the right way to go... we just haven't found the right balance point yet.

      I might go for your "basic income" idea... but only if "basic income" were subsistence level wage only.

    10. Re:Going beyond vouchers by rhakka · · Score: 1

      to be crystal clear, my fault is the sustainability of your premise, not some moralistic argument related to GDP production and our value as people or anything. If it were sustainable to pay everyone $6k/month just for being people, without enslaving us, I'd be all for it. I just don't think it is. I suspect a subsistence level income, however, would be sustainable.

    11. Re:Going beyond vouchers by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 1

      Automation, better design, voluntary social networks and limited demand mean that the value of most human labor is rapidly decreasing. Implicit in your comments is the assumption we need everyone to be working to produce all the goods and services we need (or want). But, that assumption is less and less true. Depending on who you believe and how you define unemployment, unemployment in the USA right now is somewhere between 10% and about 25%. Further, compared to a century or two ago, when children worked in factories and mines, and practically no one "retired", and practically no one went to college or graduate school, and people worked 70 hour work week (in factories or on farms), unemployment now could be thought of as 50% to 75% or higher compared to a century ago. The fact is, compared to then, essentially nobody in the USA is working, and those who work are not doing very much of it. It's true that if you go back to hunter/gatherer times (see Marshall Sahlins), you'll find a similar pattern (only some worked, and then it was not very hard).

      For example, look at this video of a robot arm throwing a cell phone into the air and catching it, and tell me that most human labor will be needed in manufacturing in twenty years:
      http://www.hizook.com/blog/2009/08/03/high-speed-robot-hand-demonstrates-dexterity-and-skillful-manipulation
      Even China is starting to have issues with manufacturing unemployment. How long before many services go the same way as agriculture and manufacturing? Yet our entire schooling system is still oriented around turning out mostly factory workers and soldiers.
      http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/underground/toc1.htm

      Anyway, so I think current trends show that work has long been going away (even as demand has increased greatly up to a point). Further, in the USA, most people have long gone past the point of diminishing returns for more stuff and bigger homes to the point of negative returns (due to the destruction of community and family) -- even as some 10% to 20% of the US population has been left out of that and is relatively impoverished and would benefit greatly from more stuff.
      "The Culture of Affluence: Psychological Costs of Material Wealth"
      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1950124/
      "Children of the Affluent: Challenges to Well-Being"
      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1948879/

      The happiest places in the world usually have both material abundance and strong social programs:
      http://abcnews.go.com/Business/Economy/story?id=7585729&page=1
      "According to a 2005 editorial, published in the British Medical Journal and authored by Dr. Tony Delamothe, research done in Mexico, Ghana, Sweden, the U.S. and the U.K. shows that individuals typically get richer during their lifetimes, but not happier. It is family, social and community networks that bring joy to one's life, according to Delamothe. "

      Some related links:
      http://www.marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm
      http://users.ipfw.edu/ruflethe/american.html
      http://www.whywork.org/rethinking/whywork/abolition.html
      http://educationanddemocracy.org/FSCfiles/C_CC2a_TripleRevolution.htm

      --
      A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
    12. Re:Going beyond vouchers by rhakka · · Score: 1

      You make some very interesting points, but stepping back to look at this in a "big picture" sense, basically it seems you are advocating for two things.

      1. is a basic reduction in current standards of living, as measured by GDP itself and general affluence. While I don't have a real problem with that on the individual level, neither do I romanticize the brutal, painful, short life of more primitive technological societies, and our current world does generate significant value that can only be continued by SOME LEVEL of "progress" as we have come to define it. Imagine a world that does have fully mechanized production such that the shared bounty could create a utopia. That's a far cry from dying in the woods because you broke your leg and penicillin hadn't been invented.

      So I do think that whatever the level of personal affluence we deem "healthy" is, society has a whole does need to continue to invest in "excellence" and "progress" by technological means... as well as by sociopolitical progress, personal improvement, and *insert favorite metric here*. Stagnation is not an option. To draw just one example, we need to get off of this planet someday, or face certain extinction. the means to do that (or to defeat an ELE asteroid strike) has to be developed... someday, at least. Maybe someday we can say... ok, that's enough... but that day is not today.

      I'm not saying you are advocating for stagnation, just pointing out a boundary condition for my thoughts here. Society must incentive "progress" in some way.

      2. Current technology cannot completely mechanize production. We can't do everything from mining and farm to robot design and production with only robots. Currently, we would still need quite a lot of labor, even if it is less than before, to keep the "machine running" in order to keep production of just basic items up, food prevalent, etc. And I think that labor pool disappears with a "basic income" of the level you are advocating, again, unless there is some kind of coerced forced labor pool you are considering. Which, perhaps needless to say, I would not support.

      Perhaps a day will come where that too is not true, and we can all sit back and live on the bounty of our machines. But I think that is still a ways off. And I would be concerned about such a reality starting to really resemble "Idiocracy" ;)

      Am I off base anywhere in here from your point of view? If so, I'd be interested in hearing how.

      Thanks again for raising the bar of discourse around here.

  33. See: Diane Ravitch by twoallbeefpatties · · Score: 1

    There's a good point here that this is not just a right-vs.-left problem. You might want to look into Diane Ravitch's opinions to see how that's going. (Here's the first link I could Google, there's more commentary around.)

    In a nutshell, Ravitch was a big supporter of the new way forward for schools during the Bush administration. She backed the testing for No Child Left Behind, she stumped for charter schools and voucher systems - y'know, right-wing ideas. Over the past few years, she's looked at the data, and she's since changed her mind dramatically. She's cited research that charter schools aren't improving grades, that they're more likely to simply poach better students, and that the quality of private schools swings widely despite a few positive stories. She's noted that the standardized testing from NCLB has simply been setting a lower bar while students continue to decline in standardized tests that haven't changed over the years.

    That's not to gloss over the issues that liberals bring to the table in supporting teacher's unions. Moving to a more creative, more individualized issue of study would require ditching much of standardized testing as well as reducing the benefits of tenure that the old guard of the teachers' unions support, in order to encourage younger teachers to be experiment. It's also going to mean that we need parents who will oblige when teachers want to stop teaching to the test and try slightly "dangerous" things. It's also going to mean that those creative younger teachers are going to need to be paid a salary due to talented people - it's sort of a free market principle that good talent won't work for cheap.

    All of those things do not neatly fit into a left-right spectrum. It's more about libertarian-vs.-authoritarian, and the leaders of both parties in the U.S. right now fall to the authoritarian side of their parties' values.

    --
    Libertarians somehow believe that private businesses should be stronger than governments but weaker than individuals.
  34. Re:Public schools (you'll never know) by nomadic · · Score: 1

    While you have a point, by your own logic, you'll never know how much happier your life or our society might have been if you had not been drilled for thirteen or more years in:

    Oh I have no doubt that there exists significantly better ways of educating children. What I dispute is that somehow public schools are intellectual deathtraps, and furthermore the corollary that most slashdot posters raise is that somehow non-public schools are better, which is ridiculous.

  35. downfall? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't see any downfall, as we all understand that Government Policy and Unions are the best route to go. As evidenced here.

  36. But somone's got to sweep the roads by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's all very well that anyone can pull themselves out of poverty if they try hard enough, but the truth is that someone has to be at the bottom, and only a few can get to the top. The system is built that way. The fact that some Hispanic kids did well (good for them) merely means that fewer black kids did well somewhere else (or white kids or yellow kids, or whichever).

    Someone has to drive the bus, sweep the streets, load the lorry, stack the shelves, and so on... and one way of choosing who those people will be is as good as another. Only a racist would complain that this or that group are over or under 'represented'.

    1. Re:But somone's got to sweep the roads by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      What a load of bullshit!

      At some point someone had to pull barges. Yes, great numbers of people stood on the river or channel banks, placed ropes over their shoulders, and pulled barges loaded with goods upstream because that was the optimal method of transportation. Channels were dug (with spades and shovels) instead of railroads.

      Then science, engineering and development of infrastructure made all this obsolete.

      It's actually a miracle (of the worse kind of miracles) that most of the jobs you have mentioned are still necessary. If US and, at lesser extent, other so-called developed countries did not discover a massive supply of desperate people willing to join the underclass, or produce goods abroad, those things would be long ago automated, and people would move to do other, more productive and more intellectually demanding things.

      There would be more of a problem, what to do with people whom society can easily support without getting any meaningful job from them -- just because machines do it better, AND same machines would be able to easily provide for those who are not interested in any kind of productive work.

      But nooooo, proud developed Americans would rather halt development of all non-entertainment-related technology, then demand more slaves to be produced to support them.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
  37. I find this appalling... by Radical+Moderate · · Score: 1

    from TFA:"Most of us, educators included, learned what we know of Escalante's experience from Stand and Deliver... the film was 90 percent truth and 10 percent drama -- but what a difference 10 percent can make."

    Educators are treating a Hollywood film like a documentary? WTF? But I'm not surprised. I've worked in education for 15 years, and it seems like the only time academicians do any research is when they're publishing. The rest of the time, it's best guesses and gut instincts. Unbelievable.

    --
    Never let a lack of data get in the way of a good rant.
  38. School is a prison by vorlich · · Score: 1

    They wanted to erase all trace of Escalante because he tried to teach. This is contrary to purpose as Gatto explains in his famous essay and Stuart Williams exposed in his secret diary http://www.bbc.co.uk/shropshire/features/2004/04/secret_diary_of_the_telford_teacher.shtml. Highlighting the shortcomings off your fellow teachers, administration, trade union and elected officials is the same as being Piggy in Lord of the Flies - and I'm not linking to the wiki entry on William Goldsmith, since that book is one we reserve for the punishment block (along with: 1984, Moby Dick and A Clockwork Orange).

    --
    Posts, MyBio or Sig, may contain satire, sarcasm, bolded nouns be sardonic or even witty & be Church of SD
  39. Watch out or they'll crucify you by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

    John Taylor Gatto was New York City Teacher of the year 3 years in a row. Soon after that, he quit teaching for good! That's what happens when you stand out in a culture of mediocrity -- it pisses everybody else off. In most private companies, if you produce exceptional results, people kiss your ass. In the public sector, you often get punished for it. It's not just schools -- I've heard similar complaints about working for the USPS and the military.

    --
    I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    1. Re:Watch out or they'll crucify you by Brian+Boitano · · Score: 1

      It's because you're making everyone else look bad by comparison.

      --
      What would Brian Boitano do?
  40. a negative times a negative equals a positive! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    that line still follows me through this day

  41. Stupid measurements are the problem by bussdriver · · Score: 1

    CA has tons of illegals and immigrants in the system and I can tell you from where I am (midwest) those people often test lower and its not because they have a low IQ it is the tests themselves that fail to measure them equally against the locals.

    On top of that big problem, you have all the issues of measuring IQ and how that is impossible...

    Its more telling in Louisiana and Mississippi because they don't have those excuses and some of those illiterate teacher stories come from there... but again its just an IQ test and doesn't mean a whole lot.

  42. The "welfare class"... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You're absolutely right.

    The so-called "welfare class" does not want to better themselves at all. Nor do those whose livelihood is based upon maintaining that perverted status quo (i.e. the Garfield school staff who pushed Escalante out and trashed his work). All that this class of people want to do is suck the money, life and soul out of everyone else who does work hard to better themselves as if to punish them for being successful.

    And the saddest truth is that this class has now taken over our federal government, and also at least a half dozen of the state governments, and driven a death blow to this once-great nation, from which it most likely will never recover.

     

    1. Re:The "welfare class"... by yurtinus · · Score: 1

      The so-called "welfare class" does not want to better themselves at all.

      This is inaccurate and counter productive. *Some* of *any* class do not want to better themselves at all, but I would wager the majority would prefer to be in charge of their destinies.

      --
      +1 Disagree
  43. unusual why? Because the names were in Spanish? by ChipMonk · · Score: 1

    Or was it merely a testament to how memorable Escalante's teaching methods were, that all of his students remembered very well the material and how he covered it? The self-appointed guardians of "real" knowledge, including ETS, will never accept that outsiders have something to contribute, until forced to.

    Having identical stuff on an exam is no big deal. My very first semester in college included a course in Pascal, and my final exam included a couple code-writing exercises. I was the second one to finish, and the instructor showed me an answer on the first student's exam. The only difference between his code and mine was symbol names; the compiled code would have been identical.

    The ETS and the teaching establishment at Garfield High don't want students to learn. They just want kids to regurgitate, without any real understanding of the material. Heaven forbid, they might start thinking for themselves.

    1. Re:unusual why? Because the names were in Spanish? by tibit · · Score: 1

      The ETS and the teaching establishment at Garfield High don't want students to learn. They just want kids to regurgitate, without any real understanding of the material. Heaven forbid, they might start thinking for themselves.

      The problem is that some teachers, at all levels, just regurgitate, too. The kids learn well from them, but they learn to regurgitate, not to understand. It's sad.

      Feynman found about it first hand when he went to teach in Brazil. After a lot of investigation, I finally figured out that the students had memorized everything, but they didn't know what anything meant. [...] At the end, he gave a talk explaining his findings: "The main purpose of my talk is to demonstrate to you that no science is being taught in Brazil!" [...] "Mr. Feynman has told us some things that are very hard for us to hear, but is appears to be that he really loves science, and is sincere in his criticism. Therefore, I think we should listen to him. I came here knowing we have some sickness in our system of education; what I have learned is that we have a cancer!" I presume they have vastly improved things since then (1950).

      Here's a personal anecdote:

      I took both GRE and TOEFL. Both of them seemed to be geared to testing how well you prepared for them. So what they test is not your general skills or aptitudes -- the tested skill is only one: that of preparing for a very straitjacket type of a test, where you don't have to understand much if anything. The test had mostly useless content. It was a year or two before they changed GRE from the "analytical thinking" (think IQ test-type puzzles) to writing.

      In grad school I have never ever had to take any tests that would demand anywhere near the mindless memorization called for by GRE and TOEFL (thank $DEITY). Quite literally, the only things preparing for GRE and TOEFL has taught me is how silly is the establishment that pushes and uses those things. I have read some papers that supposedly support the use of results from GRE, and they seemed to be worse than some pharma-funded published research "supporting" antidepressants.

      You want someone to know if they are any good in English? Have them go through college. If they manage, they obviously are good enough. If they can't, well, tough luck. At least the college gets some money out of it. Same goes for other academic skills. In my undergrad physics, they took pretty much everyone from the street, and by the end of the first year 50% of students were out. Maybe 30% ended up graduating. Yet we have some silly bureaucrats who somehow think such "awfully low graduation rate" is bad. How can it be bad?! What do you want to do, give those people meaningless pieces of papers, with nothing to show for them? Umm, yeah, I know, that's happening all over the place, too...

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
  44. Grrrr! by CopaceticOpus · · Score: 1

    The Reason article was so frustrating to read. Here we see a gifted teacher who demonstrated a vastly better way to teach mathematics, and for all his success, he ends up having to leave the school. Worst of all, no one except his students seemed to learn from him. The techniques he used could be studied and applied to schools around the country. Not all teachers could have the same impact as Escalante, but surely they could make serious improvements.

    Instead, we get counter-productive programs such as No Child Left Behind. We get an educational system deathly afraid of change. We invest more in our under-performing kids than we do in the exceptional ones. We are insane.

  45. i'm confused by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    i google stand and deliver, but i don't think that was a math movie

  46. Re:Public schools (you'll never know) by colinrichardday · · Score: 1

    This was ALL worked out. It didn't evolve by a lot of rational people saying we'll take this this and this from the past, then the next generation says we'll take this this and this. This was set down largely in a handful of places. Prussia was perhaps the most prominent of those places. The Prussian experiment leapt into the United States almost immediately in the 1840's. Leapt into the United States; its propagandists covered the country here. Its backers, its financial backers set up the most important teacher training institutes and then financed those institutes and then no one was allowed to become a teacher who didn't more or less subscribe to the fact that experts could create a curriculum and pedagogues could administer it.

    Interesting. in Critique of the Gotha Programme Marx says

    The idea of 'elementary education by the state, [emphasis in original] is completely objectionable. Specifying the means availabale to elementary schools, the qualification of the teaching staff, the subjects to be taught, etc. by general law, as is done in the United States, and having state inspectors to supervise the observance of these regulations, is something quite different from appointing the state as educator of the people!

  47. Sadly, I just used all my mod points. by jeko · · Score: 1

    The only thing I would add to your post is that most of your statements above that begin with "If" have actually happened, so perhaps those sentences should be written with "When" instead of "If."

    For some reason, we no longer teach American History 1920-1940 in this country....

    --
    He put his boots up on the table and made a face. "The sig," he smirked. "You can waste your life in search of the sig."
    1. Re:Sadly, I just used all my mod points. by spun · · Score: 1

      Yeah, weird, huh? People forget, fascism was a world wide movement.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
  48. Gone But Not Wasted by DynaSoar · · Score: 1

    "Garfield has never replicated Escalante's success with math students, and Reason Magazine reported on the shameful way in which others tore down what Escalante and his teachers worked so hard to build."

    No, but I can tell you with absolute certainty that at least one grad student took Escalante's message and intentions to heart (along with those of Al Martin, founder of the goal based rather than years based Alpha School near Portland OR), and was so inspired that when he was tasked with teaching, he earned the highest student evaluations of any member of his department (6 out of 14 evaluations being perfect 5 of 5), and his students earned (not bought, not jumped through hoops, earned) 1 full GPA point higher average grade than any taking those same classes for 10 years previous. His students also produced valid, reliable, replicable original results which they took to international conferences, as well as replicating work by big names and showing where the errors lie that invalidated those accepted works. 10 years on and medically retired, and he still gets contacted by a few more of them every year to let him know it worked. Blacksburg VA isn't easy L.A., but that doesn't mean it's not useful and needed outside the poverty stricken areas.

    --
    "I may be synthetic, but I'm not stupid." -- Bishop 341-B
  49. Stairway to knowledge by colinrichardday · · Score: 1

    "Escalante" is close to the word "escalera", which is Spanish for "stairway". Jaime Escalante was indeed a stairway to knowledge for his students.

  50. Obligitory southpark reference by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    how do i reeeech thez keeeeeds....u must learn to cheeeeet like white peeeople

  51. Why I'm tired of "the left" and "the right" by fm6 · · Score: 1

    Perhaps you'd find it easier to understand why people opposes something if you stopped thinking of them with big monolithic labels like "the left".

    There are three big reasons people oppose vouchers.

    First, a lot of vouchers would end up subsidizing religious education. Previous posts have covered this issue. I'll just comment that it's pretty sad when anybody who doesn't want taxpayer support of religion is dismissed as a "leftist". How is it left-wing to not want a theocracy?

    Then there's the privilege issue. A lot of vouchers would up subsidizing exclusive schools that just aren't open to most people. Mostly it would be about money, but private schools are going to exclude for all kinds of reasons. I know the left is the one that tends to carp the most about the rich and powerful getting government goodies. But that's just ideology. Conservative ideology tends to cut the rich a bit more slack, but it seems pretty clear that people with plain conservative ideals and values are a little less tolerant. How many middle-American ordinary Republicans were happy about Enron, the more recent stupidity and greed on Wall Street? Does it make sense to you that if you lose your job you get nothing, but if your CEO loses his his he gets millions in golden parachute? And to top this off, you want to subsidize the fancy private school his kids go to?

    Finally, there's what the Chinese call the iron rice bowl issue: teachers who like things the way they are and use their union clout to make sure nothing changes. Now technically, I guess that's a lefty thing, since unions are involved. But how lefty are most teachers? Almost all the ones that taught me were pretty damn conservative. I seem to recall seeing a lot of pro-republican and NRA bumper stickers when I walk past the teacher parking lot in high school.

    And hey, guess who's out to break this iron rice bowl? A certain "socialist" President who always been in favor of charter schools and who now supports total layoffs at failing schools. Where he (and I) draw the line is diverting public education money into private schools that the public has no say in running.

    1. Re:Why I'm tired of "the left" and "the right" by 5pp000 · · Score: 1

      I'll just comment that it's pretty sad when anybody who doesn't want taxpayer support of religion is dismissed as a "leftist".

      I didn't intend the term "the left" as a dismissal, and I don't understand why you think I did. I agree that "left" and "right" are very broad-brush concepts, but I think they can be useful nonetheless. In any case I lean left on many issues myself; this happens to be one where I disagree with the mainstream left, and I think it's an interesting one.

      First, a lot of vouchers would end up subsidizing religious education. Previous posts have covered this issue.

      I addressed it too, you may notice. I'm not denying there will be some of that. What I question is people's priorities when they say it's more important to prevent that than to have successful, effective schools. I would happily accept a few more parents sending their children to religious schools (as some already do) in order to have the Jaime Escalantes of the country teaching calculus and other hard subjects to many thousands of kids who currently never have a chance to learn them. Doesn't that sound like a good trade to you too??

      Please read TFA, if you haven't already, or read it again. Look at the incredible damage that's being done by the current system.

      I agree that charter schools are a step in the right direction, but I don't think they're enough. The power of the teachers' unions has to be broken.

      --
      Your god may be dead, but mine aren't!
    2. Re:Why I'm tired of "the left" and "the right" by fm6 · · Score: 1

      Yes, broad terms can be useful. They can also be misused. In political discourse they're mostly misused, especially in the last few years. If we ever want to go back to serious political discourse, we have to start being a little more careful. Next time you think in terms of "the left" or "the right" ask yourself if you're thinking about a coherent thing, or you're just using a too-convenient shorthand.

      If you think it's all about "breaking" the teachers unions (or any other pressure group) you might as well give up now. They're not a bunch of gangsters you can throw in jail, they're just a group of people exercising their democratic rights. Maybe they do need to be taken down a notch, but they'll still be a part of any solution.

      Ever since a former cowboy actor got himself elected President, U.S politics has been entirely about good guys versus bad guys. That's not a viable model for running a nation — you have to address everybody's concerns. The voucher model addresses your concerns but not other people's. If you keep insisting that it's all or nothing, it will be nothing.

  52. Did Mr. Carmenez die too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hooooowwww do i reeeeeeach these keeedz?

  53. Or worse .. by Weezul · · Score: 1

    .. our natural ability detection mechanisms like IQ tests all suck ass.

    --
    The Christian religion has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world. -- Bertrand Russell
  54. I was there when he was there. by danielpauldavis · · Score: 1

    (I was a new teacher then.) And there was jealousy from other teachers about administration's treatment of him (he was the only one Principal Tostado didn't pick on) to his treatment of himself (had a heart attack while working there, by way of warning to the rest of the teachers of the perils of working THAT hard. It also made for some macabre conversations: "Why don't you work as hard as Mr. Escalante?" "I don't want to die."

    --
    Cranky educator.
  55. Anonymous Coward by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When a mathematics teacher gets old he loses count. There are a number of people that I owe big time for my maths ability.
    If I had not had a maths teacher who stood everyone up at the beginning of the lesson and you only got to sit down when you had
    successfully answered a question -- I would not have been able to pass the exams at the end of the year. Mr. Smith was his name
    and I am always grateful for his ability to motivate people who are less able when it comes to maths. Heck I was lazy when I was young.

    I am aware that his former students would most likely do anything for him, as I am aware of my debt to Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith where
    ever you are - I think of you occasionally when I'm working on a maths question.

    I saw a blog recently that brought to focus some of the things that have happened to me.
    http://www.prositos.com.au/blog/prositos/2010/Going-down-the-Gurgler
    When you are broke and going down the tube faster than an ice skater - it is nice to know that there are some people who genuinely
    care about what happens to others.

    Our future is what we make it. It has not been written yet. What will we make it be?

    Decisions we made are still shaping events of the "now" and the "future".

    I should have bought a home with the divorce settlement way back 14 years ago. A down payment would have been enough to
    send me down a brighter path. Today I'm old and broke. Unfortunately I have not inspired anyone to have higher aspirations than
    when I met them. No-one has told me that I did and I was a Science teacher for a good eight years.

    At least "Jaime Escalante" did achieve a lot in his life-time. He will be remembered and his method may be taken up by
    someone else, some-place-else.