Slashdot Mirror


Oz Pirate Party Tells the Elderly How To Bypass the Net Filter

mask.of.sanity writes "When Exit International discovered it was earmarked for Australia's Internet filter blacklist, it wanted to ensure its members could access its pro-euthanasia material, but its members share an average age of 70 — not exactly from the tech generation. So Exit International turned to the filter-hating Pirate Party of Australia, which supplied a 'hacker' who taught a crowded room of grandmas and grandpas how to use proxies and advanced VPN tunnels to access Exit International's material — which the Australian government thinks breaches the moral compass of society. Computerworld has the presentation."

275 comments

  1. It sure feels odd by Arancaytar · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It'd feel odd to teach a group of old people how to access information about killing themselves.

    But that's the point of the freedom of information - anyone should have the right to seek it out and access it.

    1. Re:It sure feels odd by anarche · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yep, crazy world we live in.

      Mind you, these people all want to have their life's options explored. They are not all for killing themselves now, just may not want to be vegetable burdens in the future, much like many of us.

      How long until Capt. Kevin makes it a crime to either
      a) bypass the filter
      b) assist others to bypass the filter
      c) both of the above.

      bloody stupid steve!

      --
      Wait! Whats a sig?
    2. Re:It sure feels odd by mcvos · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It'd feel odd to teach a group of old people how to access information about killing themselves.

      But that's the point of the freedom of information - anyone should have the right to seek it out and access it.

      Whether a controlled and dignified end to you life should be a moral right may be open to discussion, but at least people should be able to inform themselves on the issue, right?

    3. Re:It sure feels odd by Arancaytar · · Score: 3, Funny

      Maybe he can license some filtering technology from China.

    4. Re:It sure feels odd by ultranova · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Whether a controlled and dignified end to you life should be a moral right may be open to discussion, but at least people should be able to inform themselves on the issue, right?

      If people are able to inform themselves on an issue, they might make a choice that's contrary to your moral stance. This is especially likely if your moral stance can be summarized as "people should suffer greatly for my peace of mind". That's why places like Australia, China, Britain, Finland etc. want to restrict their citizens ability to access information.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    5. Re:It sure feels odd by Thanshin · · Score: 1

      It'd feel odd to teach a group of old people how to access information about killing themselves.
      But that's the point of the freedom of information - anyone should have the right to seek it out and access it.

      My feelings are opposite, in a certain way.

      The freedom of information, as most freedoms, is one of those things you want to always have because there are some cases where it's important. A breach that reveals my (secret) vote is a severe problem, not because I care the least, I wouldn't mind my choice to wearing a tshirt with my choice, but because I might care, and that case is more important than all others.

      This case is not an example of the "generic use of this freedom" as you seem to be implying. This is one of the other kind. This is one of the reasons we want freedom of information in the first place. The right to control our own lives comes above most others.

      I can't express in words how important, how serious, this very example is for me.

    6. Re:It sure feels odd by vidnet · · Score: 1

      How about if it was a group of recent divorcees or depressed teenagers?

      This is an extremely cynical way of selling a $75 book, but as you say, freedom of information means for everyone.

    7. Re:It sure feels odd by x2A · · Score: 4, Funny

      You're obviously missing the point of what Australia's doing here. Their internet firewall is for blocking child pornography, this is what they said and this is what it was sold as. Obviously then blocking this website reduces child porn... I mean, with sufficient amounts of people taking up this option, it does mean that children will become a larger % of the population, which means they're even more of a target!!!

      If you think people should be allowed access to information about getting "youth in asia" to old people in Australia, then you're a pedophile.

      --
      The revolution will not be televised... but it will have a page on Wikipedia
    8. Re:It sure feels odd by CharlyFoxtrot · · Score: 2, Funny

      You're obviously missing the point of what Australia's doing here. Their internet firewall is for blocking child pornography, this is what they said and this is what it was sold as. Obviously then blocking this website reduces child porn... I mean, with sufficient amounts of people taking up this option, it does mean that children will become a larger % of the population, which means they're even more of a target!!!

      If you think people should be allowed access to information about getting "youth in asia" to old people in Australia, then you're a pedophile.

      Maybe Exit International should make a page called "Euthanasia for Child Molesters." That'd help reduce cp AND provide pro-euthenasia info, right ?

      --
      If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error.
    9. Re:It sure feels odd by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      How about, as a society, we take good care of our elderlys, make them feel that they are not a burden, make them feel they worked all their life and now it's time to take care of them.

      I mean, let's cure the root cause first, elderlys should never feel they are a burden. If they are ill, we should try to cure them, if they are sad we should cheer them up, if they feel useless we should remind them that just seeing them brings joy to them.

      Euthanasia is only a solution when the rest of society has failed to do the above. And let's be clear, it's a cheap cowardly solution for society.

      I'm not one to say we should artificially keep people with dead brains alive forever, but let's not use euthanasia as a cheap exit when there are other solutions.

    10. Re:It sure feels odd by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can't see how he could make it illegal. Anyone who uses a off shore VPN will bypass it. As I work for a US based company I could not log into work legally. As as they won't tell us what URLs I can't access then I won't know.

    11. Re:It sure feels odd by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      As NZ follows the same daft path it is especially awesome to see the exact slippery slopes being slid down across the ditch. First filter for the sake of the children. And apparently no real grace period is required before starting to block whatever else you want.

    12. Re:It sure feels odd by totally+bogus+dude · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I don't think it really matters. It's already illegal here to assist people to die, so it doesn't apply. No medical professional is going to assist a teenager or divorcee to end their life, and people who would assist with that aren't going to in any way be deterred by a censor.

      If someone wants to kill themselves, there's plenty of ways to do it and trying to deny access to anything that discusses it is going to be about as effective as denying sex education to kids in the belief that they'll not have sex if you don't tell them about it.

    13. Re:It sure feels odd by icebraining · · Score: 1

      We should improve awareness so that the people who live with them can recognize the signs and get them proper help. Denying them access to that kind of information won't fix the underlying problem.

    14. Re:It sure feels odd by ScrewMaster · · Score: 4, Insightful

      breaches the moral compass of society.

      Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't ... and besides, the end of a life is not a situation where you can apply too many absolutes.

      More to the point, however, I'd say Australia's government has been breaching their society's moral compass for some time now. So has mine, for that matter, and I'm American.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    15. Re:It sure feels odd by BikeHelmet · · Score: 1, Offtopic

      It'd feel odd to teach a group of old people how to access information about killing themselves.

      Yes, it would.

      And yet technically we do that every day. Our media glamorizes things like fast food... okay, perhaps McDonalds isn't so popular anymore, but there seems to be an abundance of advertisements for food that can be cooked in 5 minutes flat. I'm sure eating that food for years and years and years is going to have an effect. The media used to favour smoking - it was huge in both ads and TV shows. These are just two ways of slowly killing yourself, which could knock decades off your life.

      Well... a car crash, a gun shot to the head, and an overdose on drugs are also ways of knocking decades off your life. You just see the result a bit sooner.

      Is it the abruptness of it? I don't know. Technically we should be just as disturbed by an obese diabetic person looking up dutch recipes(Mmmm!... sugar and butter!), as an elderly person looking up euthanasia. They're both killing themselves, because they want their lives to be more enjoyable. And yet if they had pills in their hand, you'd stop them - but if they had candy, you probably wouldn't. :/

      I'm not sure what I'd do, but I try not to be a hypocrite about such things. It's your life - just be aware there's no reset button, and the choices you make do affect everyone left behind.

    16. Re:It sure feels odd by tomhudson · · Score: 1

      Can't see how he could make it illegal

      They're the government - give them time. They think that passing laws to make it illegal should be good and sufficient to keep the riff-raff and the great unwashed masses in thrall.

      That's why Australia is the New "Hotel California" - you can try to check out any time you like, but you can never leave ...

    17. Re:It sure feels odd by Trepidity · · Score: 4, Funny

      In fact, it's such a heinous crime against the moral compass of society, it should probably carry the death penalty.

    18. Re:It sure feels odd by x2A · · Score: 1

      Not if they're updating the firewall over the phone... then it becomes "a website for getting the youth in asia to child molesters here?!! Yes block it!!!! .... goddamn immigrants will try anything to get in here!"

      --
      The revolution will not be televised... but it will have a page on Wikipedia
    19. Re:It sure feels odd by penix1 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      How about if it was a group of recent divorcees or depressed teenagers?

      What about them? The whole idea that society should protect you from yourself has led to many an invasive, ineffective and inane law. Let me ask you, if a person is bent on suicide, do you really think a law is going to stop them? If someone is that committed to killing themselves then no amount of banning, blocking or outlawing information is going to stop them.

      --
      This is a sig. This is only a sig. Had this been an actual sig you would have been informed where to tune for more sigs.
    20. Re:It sure feels odd by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They should hire some professionals for a humane execution of punishment, Exit Internatinal for instance.

    21. Re:It sure feels odd by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And it's not like we can avoid death anyway.

    22. Re:It sure feels odd by athe!st · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Comrade Kevin is only doing what is best for peace and harmony in the People's Republic of Australia

    23. Re:It sure feels odd by RAMMS+EIN · · Score: 1

      ``Can't see how he could make it illegal. Anyone who uses a off shore VPN will bypass it. As I work for a US based company I could not log into work legally.''

      I don't think I would count on a government that wanted to limit my access to information to be very concerned about whether I would lose my job as a result. Particularly a job that gave me access to information from foreign sources and thus not under the control of said government.

      --
      Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
    24. Re:It sure feels odd by NotOverHere · · Score: 2, Funny

      In fact, it's such a heinous crime against the moral compass of society, it should probably carry the death penalty.

      But, if you're looking to reach a website to kill your self... and doing so carries the death penalty... oh... Ooohh!
      You're goooood!

    25. Re:It sure feels odd by theaveng · · Score: 1

      How long until Capt. Kevin makes it a crime to either
      a) bypass the filter
      b) assist others to bypass the filter
      c) both of the above.

      bloody stupid steve!

      A leader who ignores a human being's natural right to free speech, or to hear/read the words of the speaker, no longer deserves to be a leader. He may either step-down voluntarily or by force of the citizens' will.

      --
      FOX NEWS.com should be BANNED from television and internet. Have the Congress take it over and give us Truespeak.
    26. Re:It sure feels odd by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      A breach that reveals my (secret) vote is a severe problem

      I don't know how it is where you live, but here in the US, I'm not even secure in the feeling that they're counting my vote, much less keeping it secret.

      When you have paper ballots counted by human beings, there is some comfort in the fact that lots of people are involved in the counting process so there's going to be a variety of political ideologies involved. Plus it's really hard to keep hundreds of thousands of precinct workers quiet about a conspiracy to manipulate elections.

      If those votes are counted by computer, and those computers are made by one or two companies that are run by ideologues of one party, it's a lot easier to play with the tallies.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    27. Re:It sure feels odd by PopeRatzo · · Score: 0, Troll

      How about, as a society, we take good care of our elderlys, make them feel that they are not a burden, make them feel they worked all their life and now it's time to take care of them.

      You must be some sort of socialist.

      In a free-market society, you pull your weight or you're worm-food.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    28. Re:It sure feels odd by NFN_NLN · · Score: 1

      A leader who ignores a human being's natural right to free speech, or to hear/read the words of the speaker, no longer deserves to be a leader. He may either step-down voluntarily or by force of the citizens' will.

      The average Joe is afraid to let internet filtering into the hands of the average politician but at the same time are afraid of letting the pirate party control the economy.

      What the pirate party should do is run on the platform of: if elected they will reverse all internet censorship and enact legislation to make it near impossible to re-establish THEN step down and hand over majority control.

      How hard is that?

    29. Re:It sure feels odd by Ornlu · · Score: 1

      DAMN YOU SCUBA STEVE!

    30. Re:It sure feels odd by Abstrackt · · Score: 1

      How about if it was a group of recent divorcees or depressed teenagers?

      This is an extremely cynical way of selling a $75 book, but as you say, freedom of information means for everyone.

      I'm not sure how it works everywhere else, but in the Netherlands you need a psychological evaluation to prove you're mentally fit before they'll consider euthanization. And you need to be suffering from something terminal, like cancer.

      I may be oversimplifying the process, but I knew a few people who were euthanized and I can tell you it's not as simple as just walking into a clinic or hospital and saying you want to die.

      --
      They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance. - Terry Pratchett
    31. Re:It sure feels odd by mdarksbane · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Personally I'm worried about the following dilemma.

      As long as enough of my brain and body is functioning to be capable of taking action, I'd probably prefer to be alive. As long as I can talk or type and listen or read there are plenty of useful things I could set myself to.

      Once I lose that ability, I'd really rather just off myself.

      The problem is... at that point, I doubt I'd be very able to handle it myself. So you'd essentially be asking someone in your family and friends to go to jail for murder.

      Personally I'm leaning toward some kind of old folks home suicide pact, where we all agree to kill each other when the time comes. Because, hey, when you're getting close, what's the worst they can do to you?

      I watched my grandfather on his death bed beg his God to kill him for over a year. We need to stop this bullshit clinging to lives that aren't ours and allow people to die with dignity.

    32. Re:It sure feels odd by couchslug · · Score: 1

      "It'd feel odd to teach a group of old people how to access information about killing themselves."

      Old age is hideous. Modern technology allows people to be kept crippled and suffering and mad for decades.

      Religion says we must live so Deity can masturbate to our suffering, but for many of us the delectation of imaginary friends is not a reason to prolong the worst part of life. We all die, but are taught we shouldn't choose when and how. That's absurd.

      I wish that everyone who objects to giving those who wish it info on how to kill themselves become incompetent, incontinent, and incoherent. Let them linger in hospital or nursing home, trapped, suffering, and unable to grant themselves the release they would deny others.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    33. Re:It sure feels odd by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is no valid moral justification for tyranny.

    34. Re:It sure feels odd by Teun · · Score: 1
      I can tell you from first hand experience that you are missing some of life's lessons.

      My country recognises (under strickt conditions) the right to euthanasia and it's practised, not by people that have a sudden for others hard to understand desire to end it all but by a vast margin those that are suffering terminal and irreversible illness.

      Those people get all the care and palliative sedation modern medicine can give but there is a point where they'd only vegetate and here they have the freedom to decide when it has been enough.

      Such a point exists, nature will not let all of us die suddenly and peacefully and though sedation can alleviate a lot of suffering there are those that prefer to have the final decision in their own hand.

      --
      "The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
    35. Re:It sure feels odd by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Tom: Stop spamming us with the Slushdot "stories". Please - The Rest of Us

    36. Re:It sure feels odd by Blue+Stone · · Score: 1

      They want to control what you see, because they want to control what you have knowledge of and they want to control what you have knowledge of becuase they want to control how you think; not necessarily so that you think like them (I mean, *they* will always justify their free and full access to information so they can make decisions for *you*) but so that you will think in ways that benefit them and their goals, vision and idea of how (other) people (and society) should be.

      It's all about imposing control on others.

      I came accross this quote today, and I think it's highly relevant to the whole debate on censorship, from a slightly different angle (and it's interesting, IMO, where it puts those in favour of censorship, spiritually speaking):

      Believe nothing because a wise man said it.
      Believe nothing because it is generally held.
      Believe nothing because it is written.
      Believe nothing because it is said to be divine
      Believe nothing because someone else believes it.
      But believe only what you yourself judge to be true.

      -The Buddha.

      --
      Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility. - Ambrose Bierce
    37. Re:It sure feels odd by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      I mean, let's cure the root cause first, elderlys should never feel they are a burden. If they are ill, we should try to cure them, if they are sad we should cheer them up, if they feel useless we should remind them that just seeing them brings joy to them.

      What if they realize they're becoming senile, and want to go before that happens - while they're still in a state where they can fully control their thoughts and actions, and can properly bid everyone farewell?

    38. Re:It sure feels odd by x2A · · Score: 1

      That's awfully closed minded!

      --
      The revolution will not be televised... but it will have a page on Wikipedia
    39. Re:It sure feels odd by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Did Britain have a net filter? The Finnish net filter is currently optional depending of the service provider. You have to activate it yourself manually if you choose to filter your traffic according to the police provided list of sites. Of course, the legality of the content is another matter (I'm peeping you, Britain).

    40. Re:It sure feels odd by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think one major difference is that an obese, diabetic person, if sufficiently motivated, can change their lifestyle and effectively -add- those decades (or some of them) back onto their life. The same cannot be said of the more immediate methods.

    41. Re:It sure feels odd by stabiesoft · · Score: 1

      You must have watched the nightline special. The guy had the disease that causes your muscles to stop working. He needed to commit the assisted suicide in switzerland before his throat muscles stopped working as according to the story, he had to swallow the cocktail himself. His problem was I'm sure he would have liked to wait until his throat muscles stopped working to die, but if he did that, his suicide option would be gone. I guess his options then are starve to death or die when the chest muscles stopped breathing. Either way, it seems wrong that he could not be given an injection after his throat muscles stopped swallowing since his intentions were clear. I really don't get why others are so determined not to let those who don't want to be a vegetable or trapped in their body be allowed to die. Obviously safe guards need to be in place to make sure if you want to be a brain in a non-functioning body you can be, but why can't someone die if they want to. Sort of like a DNR, but a PMO (Put Me Out) if certain conditions are met. I watched the nightline episode and was taken aback by how my belief system about death was so in line with the man's. Scary to think my options are as limited as his.

    42. Re:It sure feels odd by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      "breaches the moral compass of society"

      Well, I spent a few years at sea when I was a younger man. I never have seen a "moral compass". And, I've certainly never seen a breached compass. How would a guy go about breaching a compass? Whatever - I'm sure that would be an offense punishable by keelhauling. And, yes, we hauled our keel along everywhere we went!

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    43. Re:It sure feels odd by sjames · · Score: 1

      For those who have not already fallen to infirmity but know the end is near (cancer, etc), they have the opportunity to make one last contribution to their kids and grandkids future by killing a politician.

    44. Re:It sure feels odd by ultranova · · Score: 1

      The Finnish net filter is currently optional depending of the service provider. You have to activate it yourself manually if you choose to filter your traffic according to the police provided list of sites.

      Bullshit. I didn't activate it and it's still on.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    45. Re:It sure feels odd by mdarksbane · · Score: 1

      Never seen the special, but that sounds about right. I can understand why Hemingway went the way he did, but it's damn frustrating to have to lose what good time you have left.

    46. Re:It sure feels odd by psithurism · · Score: 1

      If someone wants to kill themselves, there's plenty of ways to do it and trying to deny access to anything that discusses it is going to be about as effective as denying sex education to kids in the belief that they'll not have sex if you don't tell them about it.

      Quite right, people don't realize that suicide is like sex, in the fact that there are plenty of ways to do it wrong that will add a great burden to society. I know a few suicide survivors who are functional only because their youth allowed them to heal. If you have old people in chronic pain and they attempt to end it without knowing what they are doing, you'll just end up with old people in chronic pain with chemical holes burned in their stomach, drug related brain damage and non fatal bullet holes all over.

    47. Re:It sure feels odd by Smauler · · Score: 1

      _All_ governments want to restrict some information, and a lot of that is valid. Some sensitive information about military operations, and covert agents, for example should be censored and restricted IMO, at least while they are operational. The question is firstly which information should be witheld, and secondly (and most importantly) : how can we set up government withholding of information so that they do not withold information they have no right to?

      No one has got even close to answering that second question. Basically all current major governments have the ability to withold any information that they see fit, whether it be sensitive or in the public interest to know. There should be no need for websites like wikileaks (at least in terms of governments, companies are different beasts) - _anything_ that does not potentially compromise current or future operations that is owned by the government should be released. No quibbles. No matter if it shows someone in a bad light.

      The trouble is the nature of governments, and the nature of people. No one ever wants anything released that makes them look bad, and governments very very rarely relinquish powers they gain.

      Having said all that, by _far_ the best thing that New Labour did for us in the UK was introduce the Freedom of Information act, which Labour has been bitten itself by in a couple of cases, and which is what actually was used to expose the entire expenses scandal recently. That is a very important piece of legislation, and a great one, though I'll wager now they wished they never introduced it. Unfortunately the FOI act only applies to information about governmental institutions, and not about privately held stuff. The data protection act is a pretty good act too - it allows any individual to request of _any_ organisation any information that they hold on that individual. Though I personally didn't know they essentially had to pass that legislation to come into compliance with the EU until just now.

      I'm not saying those laws are perfect - far from it, there are exceptions to the FOI act, and it can be vetoed by government ministers (which has happened twice). They do need to go further. However, before their implementation, there was basically no formal requirement for information transparency at all in the UK... Hopefully, some future government will give the FOI act a few more teeth (though it has already been proven very useful).

      I'm not a New Labour apologist by any means, detention without trial is 100% wrong in my opinion. The Surveillance State is getting worse. The DNA database for people who have not ever been convicted of a crime is utterly wrong, and is truly questionable even for those (like myself) who have been convicted of minor offences. And for me, personally the absolute worst thing, especially coming from a "Labour" government, is that the wealth gap has become far worse. The wealth gap is a very good indicator of societal happiness in western societies : bigger gap = more unhappiness. This was a major pledge, to narrow it, from New Labour, and they've widened it. Anyway, I just started this paragraph to show I wasn't a Labour apologist, and I've ended up ranting. Oh well...

    48. Re:It sure feels odd by Smauler · · Score: 1

      The UK has a net filter, but it's sporadic, and relies upon ISP implentation. From Wikipedia :
      The Internet Watch Foundation (IWF) compiles and maintains a blacklist, mainly of child pornography URLs, from which 98% of commercial Internet customers in the UK are filtered.

      However, the IWF did blacklist a Wikipedia page a while back, Virgin Killer (NSFW), which is an old Scorpions album, and has an image of the album cover which falls under any definition of child porn I've ever seen. Despite the blacklisting, it seemed most people were still able to access that page, so I'd be guessing that their current blacklist is pretty innefectual. To be honest I've no real urge to hunt down dodgy child porn sites to check whether the blacklist is working... Though I am obviously slightly worried that blacklist is "mainly" child porn. What else it is censoring is anyone's guess.

    49. Re:It sure feels odd by aminorex · · Score: 1

      Methinks if we breach society's moral compass, the diamagnetic fluid of ethical hegemony will get on the pants of legal respectability, leading to a collective trip to the dry cleaners of public opinion.

      Those Australians are getting rather breachy.

      --
      -I like my women like I like my tea: green-
    50. Re:It sure feels odd by fishexe · · Score: 1

      ...is going to be about as effective as denying sex education to kids in the belief that they'll not have sex if you don't tell them about it.

      Wait...that doesn't work?

      --
      "I don't care about the Constitution!" --Bill O'Reilly, November 17, 2009
    51. Re:It sure feels odd by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Our policies are wider than just stopping Internet censorship, though that is our most immediate goal.
      We are not attempting to establish a majority in government. We are realistic. We just want to steer the debate on certain issues, such as civil liberties and copyright/patent reform, to which no major parties are giving enough respect.
      Also, your suggestion runs afoul of parliamentary sovereignty. No parliament may bind the actions of a future parliament.

      Regards,

      David Crafti
      President
      Pirate Party Australia

    52. Re:It sure feels odd by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What's your service provider?

  2. What is Australia thinking? by pspahn · · Score: 2, Funny

    Do they just want everyone to live forever? I'm not sure if I, for one, would welcome our new immortal, large-knife wielding overlords.

    --
    Someone flopped a steamer in the gene pool.
    1. Re:What is Australia thinking? by thijsh · · Score: 4, Funny

      I find your ideas intriguing and would like to subscribe to your highlander.

    2. Re:What is Australia thinking? by TheLink · · Score: 5, Funny

      Too bad, there can only be one subscriber.

      --
    3. Re:What is Australia thinking? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's not a knife...now that's a knife!

    4. Re:What is Australia thinking? by delinear · · Score: 1

      That's not a knife...now that's a knife!

      No it's not, that's a spoon.

      Yes, I've played knifey-spoony before.

    5. Re:What is Australia thinking? by anarche · · Score: 1

      I for one welcome our new, Zimmer-frame wielding overlord!

      --
      Wait! Whats a sig?
    6. Re:What is Australia thinking? by Smidgin · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That's not a knife...now that's a knife!

      No it's not, that's a spoon.

      Yes, I've played knifey-spoony before.

      As an Australian, I find it rather depressing that most Americans' "knowledge" of Australia is limited to that single Simpsons episode...

    7. Re:What is Australia thinking? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not true, we've watched Crocodile Dundee as well!

    8. Re:What is Australia thinking? by PopeRatzo · · Score: 4, Funny

      As an Australian, I find it rather depressing that most Americans' "knowledge" of Australia is limited to that single Simpsons episode..

      I'll have you know that I got my knowledge of Australia from The Adventures of Priscilla, Queen of the Desert.

      And a fine film it was.

      Also, I've been to Outback Steak House on numerous occasions.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    9. Re:What is Australia thinking? by wish+bot · · Score: 1

      Fuck you're good!

      --
      lemonade was a popular drink and it still is
    10. Re:What is Australia thinking? by pspahn · · Score: 1

      ...and for those of us that get our knowledge of Australia from Rabbit Proof Fence, that's happy stuff right there.

      --
      Someone flopped a steamer in the gene pool.
    11. Re:What is Australia thinking? by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      I believe the first quote ("That's not a knife, now THAT'S a knife!") is from Crocodile Dundee., which I imagine that particular Simpsons episode (that I don't believe I've seen) was parodying.

      The knife/spoon I didn't see either, but Terry Pratchett wrote in Thud, "He not only wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer, in fact he might even be a spoon".

      Then of course the Matrix "There is no spoon."

      Oddly, none of these are spoonerisms.

    12. Re:What is Australia thinking? by bertoelcon · · Score: 1

      Most of my knowledge was from Mad Max.

      --
      Anything can be found funny, from a certain point of view.
    13. Re:What is Australia thinking? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow. With your extensive cultural knowledge you're only one taste of Fosters away from being qualified to run for Prime Minister.

    14. Re:What is Australia thinking? by Megane · · Score: 1

      There is no spoon.

      Oh, and the cake is a lie.

      --
      #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
    15. Re:What is Australia thinking? by MartinSchou · · Score: 1

      Sure it's a knife. It's a cheese knife. It'll make light work of this brie!

      Russel Howard, I believe.

    16. Re:What is Australia thinking? by Techman83 · · Score: 1

      Fosters

      Does anyone in Australia actually drink that toilet water? The only person I've witnessed drinking it was my Grand Father.

      --
      # cat /dev/mem | strings | grep -i cat
      Damn, my RAM is full of cats. MEOW!!
    17. Re:What is Australia thinking? by sapphire+wyvern · · Score: 1

      No. You can't even buy it at most pubs.

    18. Re:What is Australia thinking? by Techman83 · · Score: 1

      I think the Moon and Sixpence in Perth has it, but that's a British pub. The brits seem to like it for some odd reason!

      --
      # cat /dev/mem | strings | grep -i cat
      Damn, my RAM is full of cats. MEOW!!
    19. Re:What is Australia thinking? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      haha, unsophisticated americans...us europeans have also seen Young Einstein!

  3. for the young ones also by AliasMarlowe · · Score: 1

    The presentation was short and simple enough that almost anyone should be able to follow its instructions. If motivated to do so, even the technologically ignorant could have a good chance of bypassing the blocklist.

    --
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
    1. Re:for the young ones also by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

      And if anyone is going to look up information about euthanasia on the internet, people who are technologically ignorant get my vote :)

  4. DEBtastic by mdsharpe · · Score: 3, Informative

    We may soon need similar lessons here in the UK when we want to access those filtered sites suspected of potentially hosting copyrighted material. Damn, that sounds sad.

    1. Re:DEBtastic by mdwh2 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Note that we already have web censorship (like Australia, allegedly for "child pr0n" - but see the Wikipedia case for how that works out in practice).

      But yes, it is particularly mad that any pretence of "only child pr0n" is being dropped, and now all it'll take is copyright infringement to get on the blacklist.

  5. Is this even possible? by xulfer · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The article says that each workshop lasts approximately five-and-a-half hours. It's taken me a half-hour just to explain how to properly navigate a website to some of my more elderly firewall. I'm not sure if the allotted time is enough to teach the various concepts and methods of VPN/ssh tunnels and proxies. I've worked with computer science graduates that didn't even properly grasp these concepts after a semester long course. I wish them the best of luck either way.

    1. Re:Is this even possible? by Arancaytar · · Score: 5, Funny

      Elderly firewalls?

      Like, Norton 1.0?

    2. Re:Is this even possible? by totally+bogus+dude · · Score: 2, Funny

      I'm quite impressed you're able to teach ANY of your elderly firewalls how to properly navigate a website. My firewalls just filter packets! I guess it's true, they don't make 'em like they used to.

    3. Re:Is this even possible? by icebraining · · Score: 1

      You don't really need to teach them the concepts, only "take these steps and you'll be able to access the blocked sites". Of course, if anyone is actually interest in learning how the system works, I'm all for teaching them.

    4. Re:Is this even possible? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Old people are smarter than you think... I've been working in retirement homes and am amazed at how much wits most of them have. Obviously age takes its toll, but still they can understand that sort of things - if explained adequately, of course.

  6. moral compass? by sams67 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Currently, as a result of back room deals between the government and the Christian lobby, Australia has a moral anchor rather than a moral compass.

    1. Re:moral compass? by mrsurb · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Citation needed for these back room deals.

      I am a Christian and am opposed to this filter. In fact, many Christians are arguing AGAINST this legislation because we have potentially unpopular views which could be silenced through future use of this scheme: http://solapanel.org/article/conroys_internet_filter_full_of_contradictions/

    2. Re:moral compass? by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 5, Insightful

      But... but... but... How else can we pigeonhole people who support censorship? Next thing you know, you'll be telling us that pinning the rest of our political problems on religion is also wrong!

      --
      You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
    3. Re:moral compass? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's called back-room because it's not in the open. That'd be mighty silly of them

    4. Re:moral compass? by x2A · · Score: 1

      "many Christians are arguing AGAINST this legislation"

      But not all... and it's the fundamentalists of any religion that have that extra "get up and go" that drives them to achieve things... bad, bad things. Once you open the door to saying it's a good thing for people to believe stuff without reason you're going to find people fighting for more and more "extreme" views. It doesn't matter if it's in the bible, or the koran. The more something is preached, the more people will follow it, look at catholicism. Condoms sending you to hell is no more unbelievable than the entire concept of heaven and hell, and once you rule reason out, and faith in... they're just as believable as each other too.

      --
      The revolution will not be televised... but it will have a page on Wikipedia
    5. Re:moral compass? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe you should call it Christianity 3.6 Mrsurb Version. Just so we know to distinguish it from the rest of the ignorance spreading pack.

    6. Re:moral compass? by dangitman · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I am a Christian and am opposed to this filter.

      Well good for you. But the fact is that the idea for this censorship was partly intended to placate the Christian lobby, and there are plenty of public Christian figures in Australia who support it. Just because some Christians oppose it, is not evidence that no Christians had anything to do with it.

      --
      ... and then they built the supercollider.
    7. Re:moral compass? by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Yes, but these are the sort of "Christians" that will tell you that Jesus was wrong, especially the bits about seperating Church and State and being charitable. They really only worship a political advantage over others.

    8. Re:moral compass? by Philip_the_physicist · · Score: 1

      Christians in general aren't the Christian lobby, mostly it is the the more crazy evangelicals and a few equally loony Catholics[1] or high Anglicans who are. Essentially, the "Christian Lobby" are those who support "traditional family values" as endorsed by the FFP, and probably vote for either the FFP (or the DLP, but everyone ignores them, of course).

      Of course, there are a lot of Christians in Australia, and calling yourself the Christian lobby sounds a lot better than calling yourself the Lunatic Fringe of Christians lobby. Unfortunately, while they seem to have lunatic down pat, they are nowhere near as fringe as I would like them to be.

      [1] those whose opinions more closely match, say His Eminence George Cardinal Pell, rather than His Grace Archbishop Philip Wilson[2]
      [2] he is actually in charge of the Catholic Church in Australia, and is a rather decent chap except when he tries to take an interest, at which point he becomes a minor nuisance. Back when I was a Catholic and worked for the church, we used to call him Bish Wilson, or Philly Willy, although not to his face.[3]
      [3] I probably ought to stop this linked list of footnotes, it is getting rather ridiculous[4]
      [4] Although I am having fun here

    9. Re:moral compass? by RAMMS+EIN · · Score: 1

      Thanks for speaking up. Your viewpoint has been lacking in this discussion, and in many others like it.

      Sometimes, it feels like it's christians vs. the rest of the world, just like we've seen muslims vs. the rest of the world, jews vs. the rest of the world, and pretty much every other group you can stick a label on (religious or otherwise). All too often, people attach the wrong labels and end up having a discussion that angers people more than it solves problems.

      We're talking about censorship here. It doesn't matter if you're a christian or not. I am sure there are christians who support the filter and christians who oppose it, just as there are non-christians who support it and who oppose it. What I care about are the arguments in favor or against the filter. I hope your post gets that discussion back on track.

      --
      Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
    10. Re:moral compass? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey, let us keep making sweeping generalizations about religion based only on our own experiences with that religion in our own country.

      It's the American way!

    11. Re:moral compass? by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      the Christian lobby

      THERE is the problem with your statement. What is "THE christian lobby"? Theres just one? Am I in it? We all support censoring?

      Maybe you could mention the specific group that supports this rather than using language which pigeonholes us just as parent was saying. A great number of christians do NOT support this, and you're using intentionally vague language to paint all Chrisians as part of some collective censorship movement. Is it possible that I can think something is wrong, but to also think the gov't getting involved in controlling it is worse, or that as my religion teaches its not my job to judge others?

    12. Re:moral compass? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But what about all of the non Christians that support it? You gonna pigeon hole them too?

    13. Re:moral compass? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "I am a Christian and am opposed to this filter."

      Having an N of 1 or some doesn't mean fuck all. Religiousity is the cause of this stupidity. Take it like a man, denounce it or change religions.

    14. Re:moral compass? by ZekoMal · · Score: 1
      Citation needed that proves that the majority of Christians are against the filter, further citation needed that proves that the majority of government-folk are not Christians that staunchly support this.

      I'm getting a little sick of how whenever someone is part of offending group A, they believe that this somehow makes the offending group any less offending. The Christian lobby still does, uh, lobby. Are you part of the Christian lobby? No? Thought not. The simple truth is that a lot of what goes into western law is bastardized Christian lunacy, or is at least packaged in a way that pleases Christian morals. At no point did OP state that you specifically were the cause of it. Furthermore, their point is not invalidated just because a Christian is against what they said.

      http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/stories/s2778257.htm

      Enjoy your citation.

    15. Re:moral compass? by ZekoMal · · Score: 1

      I hate self-replying, but in my exhaustion I failed to notice that it was not from a credited journalist. Damn. Well, if you want me to, I can go hunting for another source -sigh-. Damn, I really hate mucking up.

    16. Re:moral compass? by fishexe · · Score: 1

      Citation needed for these back room deals.

      I am a Christian and am opposed to this filter. In fact, many Christians are arguing AGAINST this legislation because we have potentially unpopular views which could be silenced through future use of this scheme: http://solapanel.org/article/conroys_internet_filter_full_of_contradictions/

      That's the difference between people and a lobby. You, and many Christian PEOPLE, are against censorship. Who said the Christian LOBBY represents you? See the American Jewish Lobby for more information.

      --
      "I don't care about the Constitution!" --Bill O'Reilly, November 17, 2009
    17. Re:moral compass? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It doesn't matter who did the back room deal. This is going to affect everyone sooner or later. it may start out innocent enough, but will become a an effective tool to stop people from talking about anything other than the weather... maybe they'll censor that too. not much required to 'tweak' the filter to include anything that is can be considered 'politically damaging'... take the closure of the 'johnhowardlies' website when the libs were in power. It was shutdown because it allegedly a phishing site... which it wasn't. If the government wants to shut someone up, it will be much easier with the new filter.

  7. Crazy Australians. by purpledinoz · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I always thought Australia was a developed country, economically, and politically. This Internet filter craziness makes them seem very un-democratic. What's next? Filtering the opposition party websites? Filtering any websites that has an opposing view of the current government? I don't think that next step is such a big one.

    1. Re:Crazy Australians. by totally+bogus+dude · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Undemocratic? The Hungry Beast had a phone poll of 1,000 people conducted, the results are in this Wikipedia article. The results indicate that a lot of people actually are in favour of the filter, but it seems to largely depend on how it's phrased and explained.

      I think we have the same problem as pretty much every democracy: everyone gets a vote, but only a small portion of people actually care/know enough about an issue to make an informed choice. And the governments don't seem to be under much pressure to actually be open and honest about what the policies they're pushing will actually achieve. So, the government asks "do you want the Australian Government to block access to things only sickos would want to see like child porn?" and most people say "yes". The government doesn't mention the filter will only block unencrypted HTTP and therefore by absolutely trivial to bypass, or how much it will cost vs the amount of content it'll be blocking, or how effective it will be compared to installing your own filtering software.

      Various online polls show strong opposition to it, but that's pretty much as expected. People who have some idea of how the internet works are hugely opposed to it for technical as well as "freedom" related issues, but people who have no idea (which is most people) just hear "this will stop child rapists and not impact you at all" and are of course going to be for it.

      In a way, it's a lot like the "Free software" debate. Most people don't give a crap if their software is "Free" or not, and don't even think about how having a healthy Free software ecosystem may benefit them (regardless of what they choose to use themselves). But if it all disappeared and there was no alternative but proprietary software from big corporations, they'd realise what they'd lost. But explaining it beforehand? There's just no interest.

    2. Re:Crazy Australians. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not really. I recall back when I was in college, about a decade ago, they banned "reckless" driving in car commercials. That was pretty much a sign of things to come.

      And I'm sure we all know about their stance on video game ratings. They've been even more of a nanny state than the US for quite some time.

    3. Re:Crazy Australians. by totally+bogus+dude · · Score: 2, Informative

      Oh yes, the other problem we share with most democracies is that we're normally limited to voting for a party, not particular policies. This works okay if there's a party which has policies you mostly agree with, but not so well otherwise. Since both of the major parties seem to be in favour of the Great (But Ineffective) Firewall of Australia, all you can do is vote for one of the minor parties (e.g. the Pirate Party) and hope they get the message about why you didn't vote for them. However, that only makes sense if the filter is a major issue for you -- but more likely, the Liberal party might actually come up with some kind of Health policy before the election and a lot of people will choose to vote based on that, since most people don't care one way or the other if the filter goes ahead (it may not achieve anything worthwhile, but it won't affect me, so what do I care?).

      And of course, whichever party wins will believe it has a mandate to put in place a national internet filter with no public oversight.

      IMHO, democracies really need to start leveraging technology to provide voting on policies, not on parties. Parties are popularity contests that no longer provide a benefit to the democratic process, IMHO.

    4. Re:Crazy Australians. by loufoque · · Score: 3, Insightful

      So, the government asks "do you want the Australian Government to block access to things only sickos would want to see like child porn?" and most people say "yes".

      Quite more likely, they ask, "are you ok with the Australian Government blocking access to websites which do not reside in Australia but which content is illegal according to Australian laws?", and they reply "yes" because it makes perfect sense to do so.
      Now why they filter things that are nowhere near illegal or why they can add sites without going through the judicial system that would determine whether it is illegal or not is beyond me.

    5. Re:Crazy Australians. by stimpleton · · Score: 4, Interesting

      My observations and several unprompted anecdotal stories from tourist friends suggest Australia is actually quite conservative. Robin Williams recently drew criticism for his comments about Australia and the Prime Minister even more so for saying they were not as bad a Rednecks(in the South of the USA).

      I am not famous so I can say what I am about to say with little fear of repercussion. I found southern US folks to be sophisticated compared to Australian Rural communities when I travel both the US and Australia. The Rosa Parkes seat-on-a-bus incident happened a long time ago in the US. While the Cronulla Beach Riots in Sydney happened but a couple years back where ordinary Australians fought pitched battles against foreigners. Politicians in Australia were found to lie about immigrants throwing babies overboard in ships, so that it would bolster their anti immigration stances. Aborigines were shot or hit by cars and killed and the attitudes of police were to treat it as an animal death up till the 1980's.

      Do not confuse a laid back attitude with conservative beliefs. Because Australia, averagely is very conservative.

      --

      In post Patriot Act America, the library books scan you.
    6. Re:Crazy Australians. by gzipped_tar · · Score: 1

      Just a thought: if what you're proposing becomes reality, the whole idea of "parties" will not be needed any more. Corporations and special interest groups will just get away with their party proxies and directly engage in legislation and policy-making, and get their policies, rather than representatives, voted.

      Welcome to democracy 2.0, with less overhead while maintaining exact bug-to-bug compliance with democracy 1.0.

      --
      Colorless green Cthulhu waits dreaming furiously.
    7. Re:Crazy Australians. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As an australian, im going to agree with you, it is a conservative nation. Curiously enough, the more conservative political party is called the liberals. go figure. Do keep in mind though that 80% of australians live in cities. These city dwellers arent so much conservative, as they are uneducated. We're an Island nation, one significantly removed from other 1st world nations. I've had the benefit of free air travel for all of my childhood, and have managed to see the likes of hong kong, paris, frankfurt etc. The majority of australians will never go overseas, and if they do it will be to denpasar or suva. Not exactly the height of enlightenment. We simply dont know what normal is, we think we have it great because we havnt seen better. I'd describe myself as a semi-conspiratist. I do believe there are ulterior motives behind almost every move the government makes, but i dont see them as crazy conspiracies like lizard people. This internet filter, to me, is a conspiracy to maintain this 'fog of war' that the country has, so that the government doesnt have to worry about actually bringing themselves into line with actual first world nations.

    8. Re:Crazy Australians. by dorward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The results indicate that a lot of people actually are in favour of the filter, but it seems to largely depend on how it's phrased and explained.

      See Yes, Minister:

      Sir Humphrey “You know what happens: nice young lady comes up to you. Obviously you want to create a good impression, you don’t want to look a fool, do you? So she starts asking you some questions: Mr. Woolley, are you worried about the number of young people without jobs?”

      Bernard Woolley: “Yes”

      Sir Humphrey “Are you worried about the rise in crime among teenagers?”

      Bernard Woolley: “Yes”

      Sir Humphrey “Do you think there is a lack of discipline in our Comprehensive schools?”

      Bernard Woolley: “Yes”

      Sir Humphrey “Do you think young people welcome some authority and leadership in their lives?”

      Bernard Woolley: “Yes”

      Sir Humphrey “Do you think they respond to a challenge?”

      Bernard Woolley: “Yes”

      Sir Humphrey “Would you be in favour of reintroducing National Service?”

      Bernard Woolley: “Ohwell, I suppose I might be.”

      Sir Humphrey “Yes or no?”

      Bernard Woolley: “Yes”

      Sir Humphrey “Of course you would, Bernard. After all you told you can’t say no to that. So they don’t mention the first five questions and they publish the last one.”

      Bernard Woolley: “Is that really what they do?”

      Sir Humphrey “Well, not the reputable ones no, but there aren’t many of those. So alternatively the young lady can get the opposite result.”

      Bernard Woolley: “How?”

      Sir Humphrey “Mr. Woolley, are you worried about the danger of war?”

      Bernard Woolley: “Yes”

      Sir Humphrey “Are you worried about the growth of armaments?”

      Bernard Woolley: “Yes”

      Sir Humphrey “Do you think there is a danger in giving young people guns and teaching them how to kill?”

      Bernard Woolley: “Yes”

      Sir Humphrey “Do you think it is wrong to force people to take up arms against their will?”

      Bernard Woolley: “Yes”

      Sir Humphrey “Would you oppose the reintroduction of National Service?”

      Bernard Woolley: “Yes”

      Sir Humphrey “There you are, you see Bernard. The perfect balanced sample.”

    9. Re:Crazy Australians. by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 1

      Filtering opposition party websites is undeniably undemocratic, but at the same time, so is denying a filter to a population that is in favour of it. What do you do for a population who votes against democracy?

      --
      You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
    10. Re:Crazy Australians. by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      In a way, it's a lot like the "Free software" debate. Most people don't give a crap if their software is "Free" or not, and don't even think about how having a healthy Free software ecosystem may benefit them (regardless of what they choose to use themselves). But if it all disappeared and there was no alternative but proprietary software from big corporations, they'd realise what they'd lost. But explaining it beforehand? There's just no interest.

      Hell, can drop the "free software" part of that and just leave in the "healthy ecosystem" and it would still be just as true.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    11. Re:Crazy Australians. by WinstonWolfIT · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Oz is a full on unapologetic nanny state. You wouldn't believe the shenanigans that go on here to save people from themselves, along with hand-wringing when people continue to take risks despite living in a nanny state. "OMG we lowered the speed limit to 36mph and yet young people continue to die in accidents even after we installed 17000 cameras." If a 20yo driver blows .01, it's a 1-year license suspension. It's disgusting. Any sane person on an empty straight 4-lane road will do 45mph -- why is that illegal here????

    12. Re:Crazy Australians. by GF678 · · Score: 1

      I always thought Australia was a developed country, economically, and politically.

      I think we are, for the most part. The problem is that we have a shitty Government, and the opposition isn't much better either. I can't say it's any better or worse than any other developed nation. Every nation has its problems; the key is that the voting public should be able to educate themselves about what's important in their lives and choose representatives which reflect those ideals.

      Currently, there is a massive backlash against the Internet filter, and I think it's going to have a significant impact on the party people vote for come election time later this year. At least I hope it does.

    13. Re:Crazy Australians. by anarche · · Score: 1

      And of course, whichever party wins will believe it has a mandate to put in place a national internet filter with no public oversight.

      This is the worst bit. Once upon a time, having a "mandate" to force through a certain issue in Australia meant a referendum. Impossible to pass in Oz, so Governments now assume that voting for them is a "mandate" for all issues even those they consider after the election.

      We need more options!

      --
      Wait! Whats a sig?
    14. Re:Crazy Australians. by timmarhy · · Score: 5, Insightful
      well, i've lived in regional australia for 25 years and i've also traveled the southern states.

      your entire post is full of 1/2 truths.

      The cronulla riots were triggered by long standing tensions caused by gangs of australian born lebanese attacking people on cronulla beach. the outbreak of violence was sparked by a 13 yo life saver (life savers are an icon here in oz) being brutally bashed by such a gang for telling them to stop harrasing a female swimmer. just like your rodney king riots.

      the baby over board saga, that was blown out of all proportion by all involved. i wouldn't be throwing stones about illegal immagration if i was you with your countries stance on their southern boarder....

      you'll need to back up your claim about police treating aboriginal deaths the same as animal deaths. i've lived here my whole life and never heard such a claim.

      while i traveled the south i came across the most intollerent gits i've ever met. while i agree that australia is a fairly conservative country, compared to the USA they look like left wing hippies. the impression i got from america is that people like to think they are all freedom loving and open minded, when really they just want THEIR kind of freedom.

      --
      If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
    15. Re:Crazy Australians. by anarche · · Score: 2, Interesting

      the Cronulla Beach Riots in Sydney happened but a couple years back where ordinary Australians fought pitched battles against foreigners.

      They were fighting against first generation Aussies (kids of refugees from the Lebanese civil war 67ish), who "refuse" to Australianise.

      Aborigines were shot or hit by cars and killed and the attitudes of police were to treat it as an animal death up till the 1980's.

      1967 (that year again) we voted (by 97% popular vote) to recognise the indigenous popluation as people

      Do not confuse a laid back attitude with conservative beliefs. Because Australia, averagely is very conservative.

      This makes no sense. We are conservative, but moreso because ideas - like decent smartphones - take frikken ages to get to Oz...

      --
      Wait! Whats a sig?
    16. Re:Crazy Australians. by Zumbs · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think we have the same problem as pretty much every democracy: everyone gets a vote, but only a small portion of people actually care/know enough about an issue to make an informed choice. And the governments don't seem to be under much pressure to actually be open and honest about what the policies they're pushing will actually achieve.

      In an ideal democracy, the press would make the specialized information available to help the general public make an informed choice. Unfortunately, the press seems more likely to run with the pro-filter crowd, in the midst of articles on bloody murder and ads for the newest VW.

      --
      The truth may be out there, but lies are inside your head
    17. Re:Crazy Australians. by mcbridematt · · Score: 1

      Of course we are. This proposal has been written to the specification of the [irrelevant] Christian right who donated loads of money to both major parties. Most in office are still on their payroll.

    18. Re:Crazy Australians. by totally+bogus+dude · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I agree parties wouldn't be needed anymore, but I don't see how it'd automatically make corporations and special groups any more powerful than they already are. I think it would make them less powerful, if the voters are reasonably well informed. If they're not, then it probably wouldn't make a lot of difference. And it would be more efficient, as you point out.

      We should be able to leverage modern communication technology to be able to vote online, and therefore have frequent, even weekly, votes on policies. Maybe spend 30 minutes a week to read about and vote on policies that you're interested in. It would be really fascinating to see something like this in action.

      I'd like to see something like this:

      1. people come up with a policy proposal and present it to parliament
      2. those opposed or with a different policy engage in a lively debate
      3. once a "party" comes up with an actual policy, they create a short summary of it, which will be given to the voting public at the time they go to vote
      4. such summaries are subject to argumentation by all and sundry, all statements must be proven to be true in order to be included (this process will probably take a while)
      5. eventually, one or more policies are presented to the voting public

      The "parties" referred to above would likely be temporary groupings of people who are backing a particular policy (because it's easier to make a workable policy without gaping holes if you work with others), not necessarily permanent parties like we have now.

      The "people" referred to in #1 are presumably politicians of some kind, although this kind of system would be pretty receptive to "single-issue politicians" who go in to argue for their favourite policy and then disappear back into normal life afterwards. Since having every single citizen arguing at once is probably not really viable, some kind of representation system like we have now would probably be needed (i.e. you need a certain amount of popular support before you can make a proposal that'll actually end up being voted on).

      So there you have it. I've fixed democracy in 10 minutes. Now to tackle climate change!

    19. Re:Crazy Australians. by CharlyFoxtrot · · Score: 1

      In an ideal democracy, the press would make the specialized information available to help the general public make an informed choice. Unfortunately, the press seems more likely to run with the pro-filter crowd, in the midst of articles on bloody murder and ads for the newest VW.

      You're only worried about the censorship implications if you're already informed, a very small group, if you're part of the unwashed masses however then you are likely uninformed and can be whipped into an anti-pedophilia hysteria. Which group can you sell more papers to you think ? Unrestrained capitalism: profit over ethic.

      --
      If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error.
    20. Re:Crazy Australians. by Inda · · Score: 1

      They should remake that show. I was too young to understand it the first time.

      --
      This post contains benzene, nitrosamines, formaldehyde and hydrogen cyanide.
    21. Re:Crazy Australians. by Thanshin · · Score: 3, Interesting

      What do you do for a population who votes against democracy?

      That's one limitation of democracy. It's self preserving.

      Is it legal in the USA, standardbearers of democracy, to create an Antidemocratic Party that has, as objective to eliminate democracy as soon as it wins?

    22. Re:Crazy Australians. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They did - it's called The Thick Of It

    23. Re:Crazy Australians. by taylorius · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It was recorded you know, you can still watch it.

    24. Re:Crazy Australians. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Australia is a strange place. They style themselves as affable jokers. Are quite racist and indeed redneckish as evidenced by the superb over-reaction to being called so by Robin Williams. In Australia you can be as racist as you want and claim the tongue in cheek Aussie joker defence and accuse anyone who is offended of being "too PC" while being concurrently hyper sensitive to any allegations (even jokingly) of being rednecks.

    25. Re:Crazy Australians. by vrai · · Score: 1

      This is why even very democratic countries aren't fully blown, all power to the majority, democracies. Democracy is not necessarily compatible with liberty and when conflict between the two arises you need something to ensures that liberty wins. Otherwise you've nothing better than mob rule, which isn't much fun if you're not part of the current ruling mob.

    26. Re:Crazy Australians. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Totally agree, if you can 'make' the right question then you get the answer you need.

      Goverments and News articles are experts as hiding the real questions and simply live in the here and now. We keep moving from one thing to the next, with no disclosure and no tracking. I'm fed up with being fed more bullsh*t and other idiots thinking the goverment are alway there to help.

      Can anyone come up with a good working model of democracy that takes skill and knowlege into account on any vote? Surely we need some work experience for politicians at the least? An opinion should take into account the experience and knowledge so people that know jack about a subject and have strong beliefs don't sway the vote away from logic and common sense.

    27. Re:Crazy Australians. by HungryHobo · · Score: 1

      And it's not like much has changed.
      I watch it now and with only a few minor exceptions it's just as relevant and correct now as politics when it was made.

    28. Re:Crazy Australians. by ChunderDownunder · · Score: 1

      Conroy barracks for Collingwood. Enough said.

    29. Re:Crazy Australians. by RAMMS+EIN · · Score: 1

      ``And the governments don't seem to be under much pressure to actually be open and honest about what the policies they're pushing will actually achieve.''

      I think what's missing is a good evaluation of laws and policies, that determines to what extent they are achieving their stated goals and what side effects they have.

      It seems to me that, for a lot of issues that people feel strongly about, the point of contention isn't so much whether some proposed legislation addresses a situation that should be addressed, but rather whether the proposed legislation would be effective at ameliorating the situation, and not cause more problems than it solved.

      There are some high-profile cases of legislation being repealed because it was perceived as doing more harm than good, such as the Prohibition in the USA. I suspect that there are many more laws that are causing more harm than good, sometimes even achieving the opposite of what their proponents claim to be their purpose. Many political issues that people feel strongly about aren't actually new, but simply keep being debated over and over again. If we regularly reviewed the effects of our laws and policies, perhaps we could strike down more harmful laws and put some of these continuous political debates to rest.

      They say that hindsight is 20/20, so let's make use of it!

      --
      Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
    30. Re:Crazy Australians. by RAMMS+EIN · · Score: 1

      Have a link for that? I'd like to watch it and share it with a few friends.

      --
      Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
    31. Re:Crazy Australians. by YojimboJango · · Score: 1

      Hell, can drop the "free software" part of that and just leave in the "healthy ecosystem" and it would still be just as true.

      But thats the kicker isn't it. Everyone here on slashdot cares about tech issues, but the vast majority of us don't put that same level of expertise into environmental issues, so when it comes time to vote in our democracy of choice we'll make stupid decisions. Just like other vast majority that make dumb decisions about tech. (I seem to recall reading some old communist propaganda that basically described all democracy in these terms.)

    32. Re:Crazy Australians. by dorward · · Score: 1
    33. Re:Crazy Australians. by noidentity · · Score: 1

      Voting on whether people should be able to read about euthenasia is like voting on whether people should be able to write the letter C in ball-point pen at home on their own paper. It shouldn't be democratic; it should be dictorial: I decide whether I can write such a thing.

    34. Re:Crazy Australians. by RAMMS+EIN · · Score: 1

      Thanks!

      Unfortunately, it looks like the DVDs are DRMed, which would make it illegal for me to play them.

      --
      Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
    35. Re:Crazy Australians. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In this case it's even easier than that! "Mr. Woolley, do you support unrestricted access to child pornography via the Internet?"

    36. Re:Crazy Australians. by hesiod · · Score: 1

      All we can hope for is that there is an equal number of idiots on either side of an issue to cancel each other out so that the informed can sway a vote in the right direction.

    37. Re:Crazy Australians. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Aborigines were shot or hit by cars and killed and the attitudes of police were to treat it as an animal death up till the 1980's.

      The reason for this is simple. The same reason as why America invaded Iraq in the first Gulf War actually.

      They were stealing all of their petrol.

    38. Re:Crazy Australians. by stimpleton · · Score: 1, Troll

      I'll put it bluntly then. You are either blind or a bullshiter. You know goddamned well that Aborigines were shot on sight in rural areas in Australia up till the 80's. If you don't know then your head is up your arse(Yes I spell it arse not ass).

      As for the Cronulla incident the physical skirmish occured after a life guard said to a lebanese beachgoer. "I come down here out of my own spare time to save you dumb cunts from drowning, now piss off you scum".

      Of course there is a hint to this conservative nationalism in your post: "life savers are an icon here in oz".

      --

      In post Patriot Act America, the library books scan you.
    39. Re:Crazy Australians. by cbs4385 · · Score: 1

      TvTorrents is your friend then. They've got it there.

    40. Re:Crazy Australians. by Hecatonchires · · Score: 1

      Good thing we won't need people with long term experience in these matters to act as experts in the system.

      Good thing the people running stuff in the background can't be suborned to move votes around.

      Good thing the politicians will vote to change to this system as it will remove the old representation system and all their perks.

      Ways to game the system: submit votes on lots and lots of issues - DoS the votetakers and makers

      Getting a policy approved that cover multiple types of issue boundary.

      Defining your issue boundaries
      # people come up with a policy proposal and present it to parliament
      # those opposed or with a different policy engage in a lively debate

      A proposes a tax on livestock entering the country. B have a different policy. B propose merging the police and the zookeepers. Someone has to say if an opposing policy fits the same area.

      How well must it fit? A's policy covers health professionals. B covers them, but also anyone who works maintenance or services at hospitals. B exclude clinics.

      Laws get that picky. And dumb. But many of the methods for creating laws have created a system that cannot be slashed at so quickly.

      --

      Yay me!

    41. Re:Crazy Australians. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      such summaries are subject to argumentation by all and sundry, all statements must be proven to be [factual] in order to be included (this process will probably take a while)

      Fixed what I believe was your intent there. Also, limiting us to facts alone prevents speculation on outcomes. So there should be an area for publishing facts and an area for opinions, clearly designated and separated from each other. (or at least, opinion can reference facts, but facts can't or shouldn't reference opinions).

    42. Re:Crazy Australians. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sadly as an American born and raised in the south I can't really disagree with you. I will defend a few of my countrymen and women however by pointing out this is mostly only true of very conservative republicans. Of course, they are the voters that the leaders of that party cater to so we get a fair dose of it in the media. But yes, these republicans (generally some denomination of christian) tend to say freedom is wonderful so long as it is their constrained, narrowed view of freedom. If you don't agree with them (say you believe Americans should have the freedom to protest Bush actually on the parade route where he would have to see them) then you hate freedom are un-american and support the terrorists. Sarah Palin's speeches were rife with this kind of sentiment during the '08 election.

      Disclaimer: I said "very conservative republicans", not all republicans behave this way, may understand freedom means supporting someones right to say things you do not agree with. There are more than a few democrats who do the "freedom so long as it's my way" thing too. It gets them elected in repulican heavy districts, it's what their voters want to hear.

    43. Re:Crazy Australians. by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, the press seems more likely to run with the pro-filter crowd

      Wait, so what if we filter the pro-filter crowd.....

    44. Re:Crazy Australians. by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      We should be able to leverage modern communication technology to be able to vote online

      I see two problems with this. First, it's impossible to get the kind of security you can get with physical security. Even with in-person voting and locked ballot boxes, there's still fraud. It would become a contest of who could hack the system first and best.

      Second, the secret in-person ballot means nobody can march you to your computer with a gun to your head (even if it's a gun that fires cops) and force you to vote the way they want you to.

      However, I would like to see a law (the Constitution would have to be amended) that stated that after the President signed a bill, it wouldn't become law until 50% of voters voted "yes" in a yearly national referendum on all bills signed by the President.

    45. Re:Crazy Australians. by Sir_Lewk · · Score: 1

      Pardon my ignorance, I'm not from Australia and am not completely familiar with all of their customs, but what is so conservative nationalist about "life savers are an icon here in oz"? Lifeguards (that is what life savers are, right?) provide a very valuable service and I hardly see anything political about them. Is "oz" conservative nationalist then?

      --
      "linux is just DOS with a UNIX like syntax" -- Galactic Dominator (944134)
    46. Re:Crazy Australians. by Sir_Lewk · · Score: 1

      45MPH? I regularly do 80MPH on roads like that, and have never once gotten pulled over or in an accident. The trick to safe driving speeds isn't going slow, it's going the same speed as everybody else, I don't see why politicians don't get this.

      How do you even get around with 36MPH speed limits though? Australia isn't exactly a small country...

      --
      "linux is just DOS with a UNIX like syntax" -- Galactic Dominator (944134)
    47. Re:Crazy Australians. by totally+bogus+dude · · Score: 1

      Good thing we won't need people with long term experience in these matters to act as experts in the system.

      If it's valuable to have people with long term experience, then they'll be able to make their case as to why they should remain on the floor. I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with our system for getting representatives into the political system at present. The issue I see is what they do once they get there, as the most effective means for them to remain in the system don't seem to do a very good job of furthering the public interest. Even the most honest politician who truly is trying to do their best for their community still has to make deals with the other side, trading support for policies they don't really agree with in order to gain support for the policies they do.

      Consider all the rhetoric from the Republican side in the US about how they're not going to support a single thing the Democrats ask for due to the passage of the health care reform bill. I expect this is just hot air, but if they actually follow through then you'll potentially have good policies being opposed because of a completely unrelated policy. That's an extreme example, but it's very common. It's often suggested that the internet filter in Australia is being supported by both parties because they're seeking the support of a particular senator in order to get another bill passed, for example.

      This is part of the political system and how it's designed to work, but I really think it's subverting the process away from what the politicians are supposed to be doing. It's turning the leadership of nations into schoolyard popularity contests. Policies ought to be debated on their merits, and this "I'll pass yours if you pass mine" stuff is pure bullshit.

      The non-political experience comes into the next question:

      Good thing the people running stuff in the background can't be suborned to move votes around.

      Most of the background jobs are just regular jobs that can be staffed as normal. Sensitive positions can have the usual safeguards of oversight and public scrutiny and accountability applied. It's not as if the current system is infallible and can't be subverted, and learning how to prevent that happening will continue to be part of our civilisation's evolution.

      An additional idea is to have a lot of the "actual doing of things" done in a manner similar to jury duty: citizens are selected at random to form a panel charged with implementing something. Politicians don't really have, or need, that thorough a knowledge of their area. Witness how frequently Ministers/Senators are moved to different portfolios. They receive advice from their departments and experts with real knowledge in the field, and then act on that.

      By randomly selecting groups of people to do that part of the job, you make it much harder for bribery or intimidation to work (especially if you keep the identities secret until they've finished their work).

      Good thing the politicians will vote to change to this system as it will remove the old representation system and all their perks.

      This is a major problem and one I sometimes worry about quite a lot. It seems pretty obvious that eventually the leadership is going to become so out of touch with the common folk that the common folk will get fed up and want significant change. It's pretty much the story of history. We don't really seem to have a mechanism for making significant changes to the political system, since all changes have to be proposed from within the system by the people who the system gave people to. There's got to be a better way than periodic violent uprisings. You seem to have to be pretty lucky to get something better after one of them, and it's a pretty huge gamble to take.

      Ways to game the system: submit votes on lots and lots of issues - DoS the votetakers and makers

      The system seems to hold up well enough to that

    48. Re:Crazy Australians. by weicco · · Score: 1

      I always thought also that the country I live in, Finland, is a developed coutry but we are doing the exact same.

      --
      You don't know what you don't know.
    49. Re:Crazy Australians. by totally+bogus+dude · · Score: 1

      I don't agree it's "impossible". You can issue tamper-resistant (i.e. they break if you try to open them) devices to all voters to verify their ID. Use them like an RSA SecurID token to provide a "something you have and something you know" login method, or stick a GSM/CDMA chip in them and make the device register votes via encrypted channels over the cell network. Make it law that you report their loss within a reasonable amount of time. If you have regular votes (weekly or monthly, say) then there's not really any excuse for not noticing your device is missing. Countries where voting is optional might need laxer rules, but even there it's probably acceptable to say you have to regularly register your lack of interest in voting.

      I'm not convinced "voting at gunpoint" is a significant issue. It might depend on the country you're in, of course, but threatening any kind of violence is kind of looked down upon here. It would also be hard to do on any meaningful scale, and doing so on any meaningful scale would guarantee some pretty serious comeuppance for the perpetrators. I mean, theoretically you could get a pretty good compliance rate by kidnapping/threatening people's children if they don't vote a certain way, but the logistics make it really hard to pull off and the punishment for pulling it off acts as a pretty strong deterrent.

      If it's really a concern, have a cooling-off period where people can revoke their vote via appropriate channels. So it's not enough to have a gun to their head on voting day, you need to keep it to their head for the rest of the week or they can go to the police and have their vote scrubbed.

    50. Re:Crazy Australians. by molo · · Score: 1

      I believe so, but they would not be able to end democracy on their own, they would have to amend the State and Federal constitutions to do so.

      -molo

      --
      Using your sig line to advertise for friends is lame.
    51. Re:Crazy Australians. by the_one(2) · · Score: 1

      To frequent polling will cause apathy in the general population and only the most radical will want to vote on an issue. Also powerful groups like cults can make their members vote in a certain way and easily become a majority because of few voters.

    52. Re:Crazy Australians. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, it is legal in the United States to have an anti-democracy party, and we do. There are a number of various communist and fascist parties that advocate removing democracy from the constitution.

      They are all viewed as nutjobs because, well, they are. In the U.S. we have a strong tradition of free speech and they take every advantage of it. But you know what? That's fine, because if frothing-at-the-mouth nutjobs are allowed to speak their mind, then 'normal' people should have no problems having their voices heard.

      I will only start fearing for the U.S. democracy when the nutjobs are silenced.

    53. Re:Crazy Australians. by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      If they can't ensure that no voter fraud exists with a physical presence, how could they possibly ensure no fraud in a computed environment?

      It might depend on the country you're in, of course, but threatening any kind of violence is kind of looked down upon here.

      It's looked down upon everywhere, but it still occurs everywhere. Are there no armed robberies in your country?

    54. Re:Crazy Australians. by marcosdumay · · Score: 1

      I like that idea a lot, but my mind boils when I think about an entire nation agreeing on an orçament. I don't think it is viable, but some mixed system (sometimes doing things this way, other times doing things the current way) can work quite well.

    55. Re:Crazy Australians. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "The Rosa Parkes seat-on-a-bus incident happened a long time ago in the US. While the Cronulla Beach Riots in Sydney happened but a couple years back where ordinary Australians fought pitched battles against foreigners."

      The LA riots are a much better comparison - armed gangs of vigilanties and days of violence that shut down large parts of a major city, worse violence with more dangerous weapons on a far larger scale than anything that happened at Cronulla.

    56. Re:Crazy Australians. by stimpleton · · Score: 1

      I do not mean a slight on life guard. They are deserving of high praise. Life guards in oz also carry a slightly enhanced perception that is probably difficult to understand. But a read on wikipedia of Aussie Battler is probably a good start. Aussie Battler goes back a long way. These days a politician would give his right arm for a voter label of Aussie Battler. So when the Life Guard (Who are Aussie Battlers) racially abused a beach goer and the beachgoer challenged the life guard, he was in effect slighting an Aussie Battler.

      --

      In post Patriot Act America, the library books scan you.
    57. Re:Crazy Australians. by PAjamian · · Score: 1

      In a way, it's a lot like the "Free software" debate. Most people don't give a crap if their software is "Free" or not,

      Nope, but they're more than willing to use that cracked copy of MS Office their nephew installed for them.

      --
      Windows is a bonfire, Linux is the sun. Linux only looks smaller if you lack perspective.
    58. Re:Crazy Australians. by tick-tock-atona · · Score: 1

      I think we have the same problem as pretty much every democracy: everyone gets a vote, but only a small portion of people actually care/know enough about an issue to make an informed choice.

      The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.
      -- Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

    59. Re:Crazy Australians. by totally+bogus+dude · · Score: 1

      If you can't ensure no voter frauds exists with the current system, why is it a necessity to ensure that no voter fraud could possibly exist in a new system before adopting it?

      Of course there's armed robberies in my country, but not on such a scale that it'd have any meaningful effect on a poll. Why would anyone who wanted to alter the outcome of a vote choose a method that requires maximum effort to achieve any kind of statistically significant effect while putting themselves at great risk, when there are perfectly legal and more effective alternatives (such as advertising campaigns, going door-to-door to spread your point of view, etc.)?

      I mean, it's theoretically quite possible for me to abduct a schoolbus full of children and then blackmail every single one of their parents into voting a particular way and providing proof that they did. But that's a crapload of work, especially if I want to stand even a remote chance of not being punished for the crime, and even if I get a bus that's crammed full of 50 kids from different families all with two parents and four grandparents who all comply, that nets me a paltry 300 votes.

      There certainly are problems with my proposal, but I don't think the possibility of fraud or coercion is one of them. Granted that it would be unlikely to work in a place like Iraq, but in stable countries existing law enforcement ought to provide sufficient deterrence.

    60. Re:Crazy Australians. by totally+bogus+dude · · Score: 1

      Interesting point. The funny thing is, a large part of the reason for my proposal is precisely to try to reduce voter apathy! I mean, how many people actually believe that going out and casting your vote every couple of years on election day actually has any impact on how your country is run? How many people think politicians are honestly representing the best interests of their constituents? Most people seem to view politicians as dishonest spin doctors who say whatever they think will get them elected, and then do whatever they feel like until the next election, when they start making promises they have no intention (or ability, often) to keep.

      Democracy is supposed to be about everyone who has a stake in their country's future having their say, but we have so many layers between Joe Voter and Joe Decision Maker that most Joe Voters end up feeling pretty disconnected from the whole thing. Not to mention the party system that pretty much forces you to pick between two groups of people with some ideas/policies that you agree with and some you disagree with.

      I think a lot of the reason people don't get involved is because of the effort required to actually become informed about an issue. But if you can present the voter with a concise, factual summary of the proposals, you might be able to lower the barrier to entry enough to increase participation.

      My thinking was that by having regular, frequent voting, people would get used to having a say in the policies that are being created to shape their life, and become more engaged in the process as a result. But it would be quite a cultural shift, especially for countries where voting is non-compulsory.

    61. Re:Crazy Australians. by Sabriel · · Score: 1

      36MPH? That'd be the urban speed limit. Forgive my metric, the current Australian speed limits are 50 km/hr (urban roads) and 100 km/hr (rural roads) unless otherwise signed (e.g. school zones are usually 40 while main thoroughfares are usually 60, with highways/motorways/freeways/bypasses/etc anywhere from 70 to 110 depending on assessed safety and local political influences). There's been a recent push in some districts to sign semi-rural roads down to 80.

      Most police here understand the concept of "de minimus" and won't ticket you for doing a few km over on empty roads, but you shouldn't and can't count on that. The latest automatic speed cameras - which still remain utterly useless compared to having a real police officer on patrol - can apparently be set to trip at 0.1 over if the installer has an axe to grind. The real danger though is a few too many tailgaters and a surprisingly large number of otherwise perfectly sober idiots who do things like overtake on double-line blind corners uphill. Neither of which a speed camera trap or random breath test will do diddly about. :p

    62. Re:Crazy Australians. by cavebison · · Score: 1

      So when the Life Guard (Who are Aussie Battlers) racially abused a beach goer and the beachgoer challenged the life guard, he was in effect slighting an Aussie Battler.

      Hello, I'm an Australian. You're poorly informed on both counts here.

      Life savers are not "Aussie battlers". "Battlers" are generally any middle- or lower-middle-class people who work hard to put food on the table and feel their interests are under-represented in politics, which is true. Politicians use that nickname to make them feel cared for, because, as far as real policy goes, they aren't - otherwise they wouldn't be battling. But that's politics the world over. Anyway read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aussie_battler if you're in doubt; there's nothing about life savers there. Well-off kids are allowed to be life savers too.

      Now to the riots. Read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Cronulla_riots#Lead_up where it does paint the lifesavers' behaviour as aggressive in that incident. But the context is that groups of Lebanese guys had been, for a long time, harassing and assaulting women on the beach: "There had been numerous assaults in the area and people, particularly women, claimed to have been harassed, almost daily, by "groups of young Lebanese men" attempting to "pick them up" and describing the women as being "Aussie sluts"." I see no evidence of the lifesavers being racist, but the behaviour of the Lebanese gangs definitely *is*. They (and many others) were already angry at the Lebanese gangs for their shitty behaviour. Without those gangs, everyone would be enjoying the beach in peace. The gangs just happen to be Lebanese in this case - big deal. We have nasty Aussie gangs too and nobody like them either.

      The general feeling here in Oz, mainly because we do have a diverse society, is this: If your reaction to diversity of opinion and behaviour is to label women as sluts for not covering their bodies, then why not consider PISSING THE FUCK OFF BACK TO YOUR OWN FUCKING COUNTRY. I think that about sums it up. We like our country, we welcome different kinds of people. We ARE laid-back, in that we generally don't make a big fuss about things, just enjoy your life and let others enjoy theirs. So we get very angry when people come here from other countries and think they can abuse us or criticise our lifestyle. Basically if you don't like our ways, then you bloody well don't have to live here.

      It's always the small minority who spoil it for the vast majority who are very accepting and just want to get on with their lives. In fact I think that's true most the world over, not just here.

    63. Re:Crazy Australians. by Philip_the_physicist · · Score: 1

      While you were aiming for funny, I suspect you are the closest anyone has got to being right so far. If there is any basis in reality for that comment, he is probably thinking of incidents in towns with large (mostly aboriginal) homeless or nearly homeless populations nearby, where there are significant drug and alcohol problem in the camps.Supposedly (I have never been to any of these towns, but have friends from them) it is not overly unusual to see drunk or stoned derelicts passed out in the middle of roads where they are likely to get hit. If that is the case, it would be understandable (not right, but understandable) for police to assume that any aboriginal person hit by a car was at fault, that the family will never come forward to identify him, and that the police could be doing far more worthwhile things with their time than investigating the accident.

    64. Re:Crazy Australians. by Philip_the_physicist · · Score: 1

      Country speed limits are higher, usually 100kmph with 110 and 130 in some places, although some clowns at Monash Uni claimed that 75% of those they asked would like to see country speed limits reduced to 90, I can only assume that asked a sample of people from central Sydney who never go out into the countryside.

      50-60kmph is typical in urban areas, except on main roads, which seems to be about similar to the UK.In my city, 4 lane, 60kmph roads are typically suburban trunk roads, which do have a lot of turnings and lights, and during the day 60 isn't unreasonable, and is usually unreachable in peak hour.

      There is a lot of hand-wringing in my state about young drivers who get injured or killed in crashes, typically by driving out into the hills and then speeding down narrow winding roads, although drag racing late at night through the suburbs is also popular. The response to this is usually to mumble a lot, cut down some trees, and make it slower and more expensive for people to get drivers licences, ignoring the fact that most of those who crash are deliberately breaking the law, and most of them are actually fully licensed and have been for 3-4 years.

    65. Re:Crazy Australians. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    66. Re:Crazy Australians. by WinstonWolfIT · · Score: 1

      In Victoria, police are compelled to cite you going 1.8mph (3kph) over the limit. If one is out with a radar where everything is logged, or if a radar unit is taking pictures, you can rack up fines in an ungodly hurry. The default speed limit is 50kph (30mph), but the typical long straight 4-lane straight road in an urban area is 60kph (36mph). It's so typical, and citations so frequent, that Aussies in Victoria just get used to driving 60kph everywhere even when the limit is 70 or 80.

  8. Filtered by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hmm it looks like the website is 'filtered' out of order...

  9. Moral campass by pickyouupatnine · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Hmm.. government trying to dictate to the elderly what is moral in society. One would think that the elderly would have the most conservative view on what is considered moral.

    --
    _Vishal www.squad9.com
    1. Re:Moral campass by Bromskloss · · Score: 1

      Hmm.. government trying to dictate to the elderly what is moral in society.

      It kind of does with every law created, when you think of it.

      --
      Swedish plasma phys. PhD student; MSc EE; knows maths, programming, electronics; finance interest; seeks opportunities
    2. Re:Moral campass by FuckingNickName · · Score: 2, Informative

      "Good" to current governments when applied to a particular view (and the laws which stem from that view) is a function with the following variables, in order of importance from most to least:
      1. Ability to reduce power of the people relative to the government;
      2. Value of income from lobbyists;
      3. Number of votes from people;
      4. Adherence to locally established ideological principles.

      1 and 4 are often confused by dabblers.

      Remember, boys: we're sufficiently democratic that we got to choose the representatives with these priorities. We Australians, British, Americans, French alike need to stop blaming "them" and start blaming ourselves. Our people want these governments. "I didn't vote for them!" perhaps, but your brother, your mother, your neighbour, your boss and your co-worker did, by and large. Why do you tolerate the people in power, but have nothing to say to or about those who put them in power? Are you worried to speak up at a personal level, where it matters and where you can make a difference?

    3. Re:Moral campass by QuantumG · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This is Australia, we don't have lobbyists.

      We call campaign contributions "bribes" and we call politicians who take them "criminals."

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    4. Re:Moral campass by jimicus · · Score: 1

      That might have been the case in the past, but today it's the baby boomers who are into their '60s and starting to think "I've spent 5 years watching my mum slowly lose her mind to Alzheimers|die horribly of some age-related disease|sit for hours in a piss-soaked cushion in a nursing home somewhere. 10 or 15 years from now that could be me."

      We're living longer than we ever have, and in so doing we're finding that the things you tend to suffer from when you get old can be a lot nastier, much harder to treat and take a lot longer to kill you. 50 years ago, far fewer people lived long enough to see that.

    5. Re:Moral campass by dwandy · · Score: 1

      Our people want these governments

      At best that's true if you believe that democracy is working - I no longer believe this. There's little real accountability - we periodically elect dictators who are largely and often financed by corporate agendas. The political bribe (re-branded as "campaign contribution" to legalise them) is more powerful than the vote.
      We're allowed to choose between a couple of bad choices.
      We're ordering our laws like Chinese food combos: no substitutions, pick a slate of views and order..errr, vote.
      We have laws foisted upon us by these politicians with little regard for what the people want.

      I've been a growing fan of direct democracy. At least if the people really had a say on issues then I could agree that we got what we asked for. Right now, I'm not convinced we're getting anywhere near what we want.

      Tell me, Mr. Anderson, what good is a phone call when you are unable to speak?

      --
      If you think imaginary property and real property are the same, when does your house become public domain?
    6. Re:Moral campass by squizzar · · Score: 1

      But how does that distinguish the politicians from the rest of the population?

    7. Re:Moral campass by jensend · · Score: 1

      Quite frankly, I think that if you polled the elderly the percentage of them opposing euthanasia would be higher, not lower, than the percentage in the overall population, largely for the reason you identify. It's just that the minority of the elderly who are in favor of it generally have more of a personal stake in the issue than the rest of those who agree with them.

    8. Re:Moral campass by sjames · · Score: 1

      I've observed that many elderly people have gained enough life experience to realize that most of the things people get all tied up in knots over are actually less harmful than the "remedies" for them.

      In contrast, people who routinely have more power than responsibility tend to be all about ordering people to do things and not really aware of the fallout.

    9. Re:Moral campass by Philip_the_physicist · · Score: 1

      In that case, what is our former foreign minister doing these days? Just because it isn't blatantly called a lobbying firm doesn't mean that's not what they're doing. There is also an official register of lobbyists for federal parliament, which certainly isn't empty.

      You are right that we don't have campaign contributions like the Americans do, but we have directorships and sinecures at think tanks. IMO, in many ways that's even worse, because you don't see those until the politician retires.

    10. Re:Moral campass by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Someone accidentally modded this 'Insightful' instead of 'ROTFLMAO'.

      There is actually a register of lobbyists.

      And we have just as many names for bribes as anyone else.

  10. already slashdotted? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Computerworld already slashdotted?

    1. Re:already slashdotted? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, We Can!

      Any copies? Would be interesting to see this.

  11. You cannot block information; firewall=fail by Bearhouse · · Score: 3, Interesting

    People have been trying to block the spread of ideas since before the invention of the printing press.
    They've always failed.
    If people want stuff from Exit, then they'll find a way; if not the internet, then via paper.
    How would the Oz Gov justify, for example, banning a site that gave out just the address to write to Exit?
    Or a site where you could leave your name and address to receive information?
    I understand the motivation for blocking interactive sites for paedophiles to exchange their revolting material, but a static public information service?
    Epic fail.

    1. Re:You cannot block information; firewall=fail by sco08y · · Score: 2, Insightful

      People have been trying to block the spread of ideas since before the invention of the printing press.
      They've always failed.

      Really? In the States and other countries, there have been fairly extensive "campaign finance" laws. These basically restrict the flow of cash, and thus the ability to spread ideas, for non-incumbent parties. They have been extremely successful at shutting up difficult opposition.

    2. Re:You cannot block information; firewall=fail by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      A static public information service is win win.
      It show the electorate you care and have kept a core promise.
      The problem with the hunt for online the online paedophile exchanges is it can have blow back.
      As http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ore showed once you start tracking real people in suburbia via CC numbers it can be political difficult as the degree of separation to sitting politicians may have approached zero.
      Best just to filter the everbody.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    3. Re:You cannot block information; firewall=fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, playing devil's advocate, if it's an illegal activity and this site is offering information on how to commit it, then it's probably no different to any other site advising users how to commit various crimes. The issue I have with the filter is not that it's being used to block sites which advise on illegal activity, but that it's a slippery slope to govrernment then blocking sites that disagree with your opinions or question your decisions. If the site is offering illegal information there are plenty of existing channels to force them to remove it or to have it blocked by ISPs (we know, because this already happens with other sites hosting illegal content), the filter isn't necessary unless you plan to take it to the next stage. To me, this smells like a test to see how the public would accept a filter on a morally ambiguous subject which they can ultimately play the criminality card on. The next stage will be sites which just have morally ambiguous information but are breaking no laws.

    4. Re:You cannot block information; firewall=fail by Angua · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I understand the motivation for blocking interactive sites for paedophiles to exchange their revolting material, but a static public information service?
      Epic fail.

      I'm always skeptical when a relatively harmless activity gets banned in order to "prevent" another, more dangerous one. Child pornography is illegal, and rightfully so. But restricting an entire nation's access to the internet in order to make things more difficult for pedophiles? I don't see the benefits myself, but then I am neither a computer genius (understatement!) nor from Australia, so perhaps I'm missing something.

      Personally, I'd rather see increased effort in tracking down the bastards and throwing them in jail.

      --
      I am not a vegetarian werewolf.
    5. Re:You cannot block information; firewall=fail by sznupi · · Score: 2, Insightful

      People have been trying to block the spread of ideas since before the invention of the printing press.
      They've always failed.

      Always?
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burning_of_books_and_burying_of_scholars

      Plus generally, you wouldn't have heard about really succesfull such actions by definition.

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    6. Re:You cannot block information; firewall=fail by RAMMS+EIN · · Score: 1

      ``I understand the motivation for blocking interactive sites for paedophiles to exchange their revolting material, but a static public information service?''

      This is a very good example of a slippery slope. Censorship will always be pushed as a measure against something that most people oppose ... but once in place, the same tools can be used to suppress anything, including things that are controversial and even things you support.

      --
      Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
    7. Re:You cannot block information; firewall=fail by geekoid · · Score: 1

      YEs, but they haven' stopped the ideas, have they?

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    8. Re:You cannot block information; firewall=fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fortunately, via the internet and, to a lesser extent, the telephone and mail systems, information can spread with a far smaller investment than, say, buying every other commercial on TV or radio to say this person wants to kill your kids and parents.

  12. Gone... by BrokenHalo · · Score: 1

    Link comes up with a blank page. I think Auntie Steve has already had it censored... :-{

    1. Re:Gone... by Philip_the_physicist · · Score: 1

      WFM, in .AU, no proxies or other dodyness.

  13. Scary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You're reading Slashdot.

    Huh, how did you know that?

  14. Anonymous Coward by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Good grief, I'm in Australia and I can't access the presentation site already!!!! What can I say....the filter works!!!

  15. 8/10 for the name. by timmarhy · · Score: 1

    "exit international" fucking hilarious name for self help on killing yourself.

    --
    If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
    1. Re:8/10 for the name. by game+kid · · Score: 1

      One member suggested "DIAF Pty.", but peers quickly roasted him for the mere thought.

      --
      You can hold down the "B" button for continuous firing.
    2. Re:8/10 for the name. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Kick-the-bucket international

  16. another step in Australia's euthanasia saga by Trepidity · · Score: 4, Informative

    The federal government of Australia, due to some sort of religious-conservative influence, has been really, really anti-euthanasia for some time now. The last major time the issue came to a head was in 1995-97, when the Northwest Territory passed the Rights of the Terminall Ill Act 1995, which allowed euthanasia for the terminally ill, under certain conditions and with a lengthy process. The federal government attempted to pressure NT into repealing the law, and when it refused to do so, in 1997, the federal parliament amended NT's territory charter to specifically remove its ability to pass laws relating to euthanasia (this was possible because NT is a territory, not a state, so its powers of self-government can be reduced by simple legislation).

    1. Re:another step in Australia's euthanasia saga by wvmarle · · Score: 1

      [...]allowed euthanasia for the terminally ill, under certain conditions and with a lengthy process.

      That law was then probably designed with both parties in mind: giving those that want euthanasia something to look out for, and those that are against it way to delay it so long that it is not necessary any more.

    2. Re:another step in Australia's euthanasia saga by Warbothong · · Score: 1

      The last major time the issue came to a head was in 1995-97, when the Northwest Territory passed the Rights of the Terminall Ill Act 1995, which allowed euthanasia for the terminally ill, under certain conditions and with a lengthy process.

      I'm afraid I'd need some context for that. Have you got links to the Rights of the Terminall I and II handy, and preferably the first 1,994 acts of the third?

    3. Re:another step in Australia's euthanasia saga by the_raptor · · Score: 1

      I don't think the euthanasia stuff is particularly religiously motivated because we allow all sorts of other things that fundamentalists are against (abortion, non-abstinence sex ed etc). I think it had more to do with the general knee jerk reaction of the public to the notion of assisted suicide. Our pollies will jump on pretty much anything that makes them poll well (Afghanistan is stable enough now to kick out Afghani asylum seekers right?).

      --

      ========
      CINC, 4th Penguin Legion
    4. Re:another step in Australia's euthanasia saga by infinite9 · · Score: 1

      I know that everyone here thinks that euthanasia is all about personal rights and freedom. But please remember that once it becomes legal, it's a short step to mandating it for certain situations... like maybe when you can't pay your hospital bill and you're over 65.

      --
      Disconnect your television. Do your own research. Draw your own conclusions. They're probably lying. Don't be a sheep.
  17. Australian Opposition may back Web Filter by CuteSteveJobs · · Score: 4, Informative

    Whoa Slashdot! Why are you running stories like this? Do you want to get this site *BANNED* in Australia? Better tone it down. I suggest the only Aussie news you consider running are positive stories about the Rudd Government:

    Like the one how Conroy gave a plum job for the Governent's Broadband network to Mike Kaiser, a Labor Party stooge who was previously convicted of electoral fraud. A $450K a year job without an interview for a guy who knows nothing about IT or comms and who should be sitting in a prison.
    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/politics/i-recommended-mike-kaiser-for-nbn-job-says-stephen-conroy/story-e6frgczf-1225827983520

    Submitted this next story to Firehose but it never ran:
    "Stephen Conroy's Internet Filter has received an unexpected boost from the Australian Opposition. Instead of voting down the Filter in the Senate, the Opposition Party Leader Tony Abbot refused to articulate a definitive position on the Filter saying he would "await the final legislation and seek technical assurances from the government on the operations of the filter". Both Tony Abbot and Communications Minister Stephen Conroy who is implementing the Filter have affirmed their strong Christian faith, overwhelming anti-censorship moderates. This raises the question for those opposed to the filter: How can a Democracy work if the only two viable parties both offer the same thing?
    http://www.smh.com.au/technology/web-filter-splits-opposition-20100406-rpf7.html

    At least Conroy recently got a taste of his own medicine when Trend Micro's parliamentary web filter blocked politicians from accessing news commentary and train timetables."
    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/australian-it/parliamentary-services-to-probe-trend-micro-filter/story-e6frgakx-1225850540731

    1. Re:Australian Opposition may back Web Filter by zarzu · · Score: 1
      that last link is utterly hilarious.

      "The filter misunderstood the nature of The Punch, thought it was a games website and blocked it," he said.

      "When we found out it was blocked, at the time, we too were mystified."

      "It happened for reasons we don't understand ... we know The Punch is not a games website."

      they make it sound like the filter has some kind of advanced AI and just goes around blocking whatever it doesn't like. and if an error occurs it's the mystical algorithms behind the filter that are to blame. bad filter, bad!

      i very much doubt the filtering decisions are automated, that would be a recipe for disaster.

    2. Re:Australian Opposition may back Web Filter by dbIII · · Score: 1

      You forgot Conroy blaming a "lesbian cabal" for delays in part of the National Broadband network tenders.
      Some poor woman was following due process so the Government can't get sued by a failed tenderer, it turns out she is a lesbian, things were going too slow for Conroy so suddenly he puts out a press release that it's a "lesbian cabal" sabotaging him. Here's a link but it may ask for annoying registration:
      http://media.crikey.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/dailymail-05-02-2010_2.html#article_1360
      He's a nasty piece of work which is probably why Rudd put him in a spot where he can't win either way - he's expendable. With Telstra around the Communications portfolio is a punishment position.

  18. In related news ... by AHuxley · · Score: 2, Informative

    All Australians paying for privacy.io using Australian based credit cards where raided.
    Australians where raided after isp's where required to submit logs of users frequenting known 'proxy' sites.
    The office of Minister for Broadband, Communications and the Digital Economy announced a new partnership with Nokia Siemens and Narus to better understand https and onion routing.
    The only way around this "wall of faith" is an encrypted tunnel to a end user in the USA.
    As most Australian ISP's limit all usage to 10's of Gigabytes per month your donation of left over bandwidth could help millions of Australian net users gain access to life saving literature and multimedia.

    --
    Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    1. Re:In related news ... by Samah · · Score: 2, Insightful

      In other news, where is not the same as were. Not even when you write it three times.

      --
      Homonyms are fun!
      You're driving your car, but they're riding their bikes there.
    2. Re:In related news ... by RPoet · · Score: 1

      I suspect and hope that your post is a hoax. I have not been able to find any news coverage.

      --
      "Oppression and harassment is a small price to pay to live in the land of the free." -- Montgomery Burns.
    3. Re:In related news ... by BenevolentP · · Score: 1

      Source? Couldn't find anything on google news about this. And I'm outside the great australian firewall.

    4. Re:In related news ... by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      More a warning from the future type post.
      The Minister for Broadband sees the http filter as a good start but knows of p2p, hhtps and proxy use.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
  19. not blocked... yet by anarche · · Score: 3, Informative
    --
    Wait! Whats a sig?
  20. He already copied China by ciaran_o_riordan · · Score: 4, Insightful

    China's filter is also bypassable. I assume want it that way. The strategy is to ensure that the young and the very concerned have ways to protect themselves individually, to avoid having them motivated to look into organised ways. A classic way to take the wind out of people power.

    1. Re:He already copied China by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is a very interesting viewpoint. i haven't thought about it like that before.

    2. Re:He already copied China by kamapuaa · · Score: 0

      China's filter is not bypassable. At least not for the large majority of Chinese internet users. You'd have to have a hookup to a proxy in another country (not practical for most people), or have access to paypal/a foreign credit card, and use that to get a proxy for $8/month. Regardless, even if that allows access to facebook & youtube, access to more sensitive items such as pornography or Falun Gong websites will still be blocked.

      --
      Slashdot: providing anti-social weirdos a soapbox, since 1997.
    3. Re:He already copied China by Sir_Lewk · · Score: 1

      If you have the technical know-how and resources to set up an external proxy, and it works for getting you to youtube, how exactly would it not work for getting you to other more controversial websites? Do they do deep packet inspection to manually verify that every image you load is not pornography?

      --
      "linux is just DOS with a UNIX like syntax" -- Galactic Dominator (944134)
    4. Re:He already copied China by Amlothi · · Score: 3, Informative

      Are you actually in China? Because I am, and it doesn't seem like you know anything.

      All you need to do is use a VPN connection, and there are many free and cheap alternatives easily available on the web. You can get to anything you want that way.... yes, even "sensitive items".

      You should try to avoid posting about things that you have absolutely no knowledge of.

      --
      ~A~
    5. Re:He already copied China by plover · · Score: 2, Funny

      You should try to avoid posting about things that you have absolutely no knowledge of.

      You must be new here. :-)

      --
      John
    6. Re:He already copied China by treeves · · Score: 1

      But what can he do if he doesn't know that he doesn't know?

      --
      ...the future crusty old bastards are already drinking the Kool-Aid.
    7. Re:He already copied China by Phoghat · · Score: 1

      Actually, I would think (just off the top of my head) that any filtering can and will be overcome, given the correct knowledge.

      --
      Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
  21. Snappy title for The Great Barrier of Australia? by evilandi · · Score: 1

    China has a snappy title for its "Great Firewall of China", based on the Great Wall of China.

    Australia's censor system needs a snappy title too. They've got the Great Barrier Reef, the world's largest coral system and the largest organism visible from space, how about the "Great Barrier of Australia"? Hmm, maybe that needs more work.

    --
    Andrew Oakley - www.aoakley.com
  22. Conroy ... by thephydes · · Score: 1

    Conroy is a moron .....or maybe he has to toe the party line. Whichever, the government of oz is delusional if they think a filter can block "unacceptable" sites. I bought my copy of The Peaceful Pill online despite the fact that it is banned here on oz - it arrived in a cardboard package with "book" written on the customs sticker, and no doubt the customs Xray confirmed that it is in fact a book. The other huge con (short for Con-roy) is "think of the children" - well please tell me Mr Conroy how filtering my internet will stop pedophiles making kiddy porn. That's right it wont!

  23. Alternatives to blocking by davide+marney · · Score: 1

    The problem with blocking content is that there is no way to deduce what someone intends to do with information merely from the fact that they have it. Am I reading that suicide website because I want to commit suicide, or because I'm gathering research on why not to do it?

    Instead of blocking information, make it easier to hold the authors of information accountable for any bad usage. Provide streamlined ways for people to lodge complaints about specific mis-uses of information so the author has an opportunity to rewrite the material or put up better qualifiers and notices about proper use. If an author refuses to respond, provide an escalation path to legal action.

    We need laws that are much closer to what's happening on Internet time. We need better legal definitions of culpability, more reasonable penalties, and different standards of evidence that will work for the Internet. An entire court system built just for Internet-related suits -- and which would be run itself on the Internet, of course -- would not be amiss.

    At core, we need to be reactive, focusing on real harm done, rather than on harms only imagined. We must preserve the principle that people are presumed innocent, until proven otherwise. But we also need a way that will truly suppress the criminal use of information.

    --
    "We receive as friendly that which agrees with, we resist with dislike that which opposes us" - Faraday
    1. Re:Alternatives to blocking by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Instead of blocking information, make it easier to hold the authors of information accountable for any bad usage.

      Then we need to hold knifemakers accountable for murder, automakers accountable for bank robbery getaways, chemical companies for making poisons.

      Sorry, your idea sucks. If you kill someone with a knife I've made, I'm not responsible. If you use my chemistry website to make bombs out of ordinary household chemicals, I'm not responsible for that, either -- you are, in both cases.

  24. Tech Generation? by dangitman · · Score: 2, Insightful

    But its members share an average age of 70. Not exactly from the tech generation.

    What the fuck is that supposed to mean? Somebody who is 70 would have been born in 1940. I'm pretty sure they would have grown up with technology their entire lives. In fact, somebody of that age would have grown up with one of the biggest technology expansions in history. They are almost the definition of "tech generation," and grew up under the influence of people like Albert Einstein.

    --
    ... and then they built the supercollider.
    1. Re:Tech Generation? by RobertLTux · · Score: 0

      yes but take a look at the tech they grew up with

      Computers: early days that meant guys/girls that could do math in their heads and later days meant huge things that took punch cards

      Telephone: Rotary phones were just coming in common use later days Dial phones were the NEW thing

      GPS: they grew up with maps and compasses GPS was the late tech (and was expensive)

      Cell Phones: bag phones were late tech and they had BATTERIES that weighed more than most entire phones these days
      (how many folks here have a cell phone that weighs more than 5 pounds fully kitted out?)

      --
      Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
    2. Re:Tech Generation? by dangitman · · Score: 4, Insightful

      yes but take a look at the tech they grew up with

      Let's see - aircraft, cars, spacecraft, telephony, television, radio. All pretty advanced stuff.

      Computers: early days that meant guys/girls that could do math in their heads and later days meant huge things that took punch cards

      But people in their 70s or older were the ones who fucking made computing happen. For example: Seymour Cray: born 1925. Alan Turing: born 1912.

      Who is the "tech generation" supposed to be? People who are 20-30 years old? I wouldn't trust many of them to know the first thing about technology, unless you call "using Facebook" knowing about technology.

      Anyway, since when was technology limited to computing and electronics? I know a bunch of 65-80 year olds who could repair a car blindfolded. How many of today's youth can even change their car's oil? How many could debug a computer program?

      --
      ... and then they built the supercollider.
    3. Re:Tech Generation? by awall222 · · Score: 1

      "Technology" was probably too generic of a word, but don't sound so offended. What percent of 70-year-olds you know would have the first clue about bypassing an Internet filter? This post isn't about the few people at the leading edge of a field, or people changing oil in their cars, it's talking about the average person off of the street bypassing an Internet filter.

    4. Re:Tech Generation? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Losing sight of the context and harping on about how a word should mean something other than what everybody understood is one of the aspects about geeks which alienates normal people. Around here, it gets you an "insightful" mod, but don't do that away from other geeks. It makes you look like an imbecile.

    5. Re:Tech Generation? by dangitman · · Score: 3, Informative

      What percent of 70-year-olds you know would have the first clue about bypassing an Internet filter?

      Probably around 25%. Among younger people, maybe 5-10%.

      --
      ... and then they built the supercollider.
    6. Re:Tech Generation? by dangitman · · Score: 1

      Losing sight of the context and harping on about how a word should mean something other than what everybody understood is one of the aspects about geeks which alienates normal people.

      I'm afraid you have it backwards. One of the things that alienates people about geeks is they take common words and twist their meaning to apply only to them.

      Around here, it gets you an "insightful" mod, but don't do that away from other geeks. It makes you look like an imbecile.

      No, to most people, technology means technology. It's only computer nerds who think it only means computers and electronics, and it makes them looks like imbeciles.

      --
      ... and then they built the supercollider.
    7. Re:Tech Generation? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      CONTEXT. You're reading Slashdot. Here "tech generation" has a well understood meaning, which you're ignoring.

    8. Re:Tech Generation? by dangitman · · Score: 1

      You're reading Slashdot. Here "tech generation" has a well understood meaning, which you're ignoring.

      Does it? So which generation is the "tech generation" as it's so clearly understood on slashdot?

      --
      ... and then they built the supercollider.
    9. Re:Tech Generation? by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Many. The person who gave me my love of technology would have been 100 this year. My first computer teacher in '81 is probably 70.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    10. Re:Tech Generation? by Teun · · Score: 1

      Judging by the iPad comments it's the Multi Taskers, in other words born around the time the 386 appeared.

      --
      "The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
    11. Re:Tech Generation? by Chirs · · Score: 1

      The 70-yr-olds you know are very different from the ones I know. The ones I know generally do email, web, maybe some video and photo editing. Maybe some CAD work for planning woodworking projects.

      Bypassing a net filter? No chance.

    12. Re:Tech Generation? by O('_')O_Bush · · Score: 1

      Don't confuse the previous generations' specialists with widespread adoption. The handful of people who did use technology before 1990 really know their stuff, but that's a handful. Compare that to now, when nearly everyone in an industrialized nation has or has access to a computer.

      I mean, your claim is the equivalent of declaring that the middle ages were the reading ages since the advent of widespread book publication was available after the invention of the printing press. Even though the books were still restricted to the religious clergy. Even though literacy during the early middle ages was almost non-existent in the public.

      That might sound like a tangent, but it's a close analogy to the argument you presented. Calling Generation Z the "Tech Generation" is valid and accurate.

      --
      while(1) attack(People.Sandy);
    13. Re:Tech Generation? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What percent of 70-year-olds you know would have the first clue about bypassing an Internet filter?

      Probably around 25%. Among younger people, maybe 5-10%.

      Absolute, unmitigated bullshit.

    14. Re:Tech Generation? by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      Somebody who is 70 would have been born in 1940. I'm pretty sure they would have grown up with technology their entire lives.

      The first GUI I used was on the Xerox Star system my mom administered. Poor ignorant woman - all she could do is hack mainframes and run big client/server installations. If only she'd been been born in the Xbox Generation, she could've learned all about how to use (and not merely implement) technology.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    15. Re:Tech Generation? by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      yes but take a look at the tech they grew up with
      Let's see - aircraft, cars, spacecraft, telephony, television, radio. All pretty advanced stuff.

      Well, they didn't grow up with spacecraft; my dad was born in 1932, and I was five years old when Sputnik 1, the first man made satellite, was launched. I was nine when a human was launched into space. I grew up with spacecraft, not my 79 year old dad. He did grow up with everything else except TV, although I can remember both sets of grandparents having outhouses.

      Who is the "tech generation" supposed to be? People who are 20-30 years old? I wouldn't trust many of them to know the first thing about technology, unless you call "using Facebook" knowing about technology.

      Hear hear! How many twentysomethings can build a radio out of a coil of wire, a piece of wood, a couple of nails, and a diode? Chances are most of my grandfather's generation (born 1886) could. Hell, when I was in the seventh grade I built a working computer out of two potentiometers, a voltmeter, battery, wire, and wood. Yes, it was an analog computer that was more or less an electric slide rule, but it was programmable (move the marks on the potentiometers) and actually did compute. How many of your "tech generation" can hack a cheap transistor radio into a guitar fuzzbox? Hell, how many even know a resister from a capacitor?

    16. Re:Tech Generation? by jvkjvk · · Score: 1

      But people in their 70s or older were the ones who fucking made computing happen. For example: Seymour Cray: born 1925. Alan Turing: born 1912.

      And here, you crumble your own argument.

      IF, people in their 70's 'made computing happen'
      THEN, computing ITSELF was a very cutting edge technology, unlike, say cars.

      IF, computing ITSELF is a very cutting edge technology
      THEN, there are by definition very few people who are exposed to it

      So, ON AVERAGE that 70 year old did not "grow up" with this tech, although the TECH may have grown up with that generation.

      Regards.

    17. Re:Tech Generation? by fishexe · · Score: 1

      What percent of 70-year-olds you know would have the first clue about bypassing an Internet filter?

      Probably around 25%. Among younger people, maybe 5-10%.

      ????

      Is this a joke I don't get?

      In my experience, literally about 25% of 70-year-olds would have the first clue about ACCESSING the internet.

      ????

      --
      "I don't care about the Constitution!" --Bill O'Reilly, November 17, 2009
    18. Re:Tech Generation? by dangitman · · Score: 1

      No, it's not a joke. The question asked was how many 70-year olds do I know that would have any idea of how to bypass a filter. Seeing as most of the older people I know are highly intelligent engineers and scientists, it's quite a high proportion. I never said it held true for the general population.

      --
      ... and then they built the supercollider.
    19. Re:Tech Generation? by dangitman · · Score: 1

      The 70-yr-olds you know are very different from the ones I know.

      That's highly probable.

      --
      ... and then they built the supercollider.
    20. Re:Tech Generation? by fishexe · · Score: 1

      No, it's not a joke. The question asked was how many 70-year olds do I know that would have any idea of how to bypass a filter. Seeing as most of the older people I know are highly intelligent engineers and scientists, it's quite a high proportion. I never said it held true for the general population.

      Ah, you got me. You did answer a "how many do you know" question, not a "how many in the population" question.

      --
      "I don't care about the Constitution!" --Bill O'Reilly, November 17, 2009
  25. Australia used to be part of the Commonwealth by circletimessquare · · Score: 3, Insightful

    now, having its economy dominated by China, it is apparently more like a Southern outpost of the Middle Kingdom. funny though how Chinese cultural understandings of centralized thought domination and control has proven so quickly popular in Canberra

    we need to keep an eye on New Zealand, make sure down there all alone in the Antipodes that cabin fever doesn't make it lose it's marbles like Australia obviously has. plus New Zealand has that domestic situation with Mordor being inside its borders

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    1. Re:Australia used to be part of the Commonwealth by QuantumG · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Probably the funniest thing you've ever written dude, and I notice that you do know how to make capital letters.. you're so close!

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
  26. "They were such nice young men" by CODiNE · · Score: 2, Funny

    "They had a nice demonstration on how to use the internet, the importance of changing your coffee filters and how to reach the exit it was hard to see with all the signs and the people running around but they taught us how to find it. There's a website that will show you how to get to the exit but only if you change your coffee filters or some such."

    --
    Cwm, fjord-bank glyphs vext quiz
  27. Exit's book avail by P2P v The [other] Pirate Bay by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Saw it there today: it's under 10 MB

  28. Re:Snappy title for The Great Barrier of Australia by discord5 · · Score: 3, Funny

    Australia's censor system needs a snappy title too.

    Since Australia was originally used as a penal colony, I would suggest "The Australian Packet Prison". It has a nice ring to it, and I'm sure some will be offended. To top it off, it works great for Australia bashing.

  29. They should publish iHowTo for everybody's use... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is this a PR game or a way to increase Internet freedom?

    Going door-to-door takes time.

    Want to end the costly filter?

    Publish WIDELY the way(s) to make it ineffective.

  30. Right on. by Aphoxema · · Score: 1

    This is the perfect example of how censorship tries to control more than it "protects". You can make anyone think what you want them to think if you have the power to choose what they're exposed to.

    --
    "Most people, I think, don't even know what a rootkit is, so why should they care about it?"
  31. Legal for white men to hunt Aborigines? by chrb · · Score: 1

    you'll need to back up your claim about police treating aboriginal deaths the same as animal deaths. i've lived here my whole life and never heard such a claim.

    I have read many times that, under Australian law, it was legal for white men to hunt Aborigines up until the 1950s. e.g. this:

    "the classic "nigger hunting" license that station (ranch) owners obtained from the local police was to permit them to eliminate Aborigines by hunting the local fauna, Aborigines were fauna by constitutional definition, kill them and feel not the retribution of law for murder. I have interviewed men who say this genocide continued into the 1950s when they had to get more subtle about the disposal of the remains, so they'd slit open a steer and slide the corpse inside. Mutual decomposition took care of the rest."

    and this:

    "In fact, as recently as the 1950s, a white man could apply for a hunting permit to hunt and kill Aborigines! Can you imagine? They were hunted and killed as if they were a game animal."

    These are not great references - I would welcome a better reference to settle this urban myth one way or the other.

  32. Bullshit by Snaller · · Score: 1

    Its usually bullshit to talk about "burden" - it is (or it should be) a human right to END YOUR LIFE WHEN YOU WANT - anyone who prevents you from doing that is an evil bastard.

    --
    If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
    1. Re:Bullshit by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      I've just filled out my census form, and when it asked for "Race", I wrote "Evil bastard". The question is, why are you such a racist? You insensitive CLOD!

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
  33. Moral compass?? by dontmakemethink · · Score: 1

    What about the practical compass? Did they really think a software barrier would be impenetrable? All they can hope to accomplish with a filter is to make certain sites less convenient to access. I guess their toilets aren't the only things that spin backwards.

    The thing that we can least afford to be censored is criticism of censorship. Too often it is the first to fall.

    --

    War as we knew it was obsolete
    Nothing could beat complete denial
    - Emily Haines
  34. Niot the tech genreation? by geekoid · · Score: 2, Insightful

    70 means born in 1940.
    They came of age with jet Fighter, space ships, nuclear power and color TV.

    Not a computer literate bunch, but they weren't exactly from the dark ages.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    1. Re:Niot the tech genreation? by iggymanz · · Score: 1

      For someone born in 1887, in the first twenty years of their life was invention of

      radar, radio, AC motor, transformer, diesel engine, motion picture camera and processing system, air conditioner, polygraph, neon lights, airplane, vacuum tube, Theory of General Relativity, sonar, plastic, and the helicopter.

      Clearly a tech generation, my great-grandmother's, she died at age 101.

    2. Re:Niot the tech genreation? by rubycodez · · Score: 1

      not computer literate, are you shitting me? my parents, born in 1941 and 1942, are quite skilled with search engine, eBay with Paypal, online classified ads for tools and equipment, e-mail, digital photo software, word processing, OCR, spreadsheets, mapquest....using computer as a tool like most other people.

  35. Accessing copyrighted material - how to do it by SgtChaireBourne · · Score: 1

    We may soon need similar lessons here in the UK when we want to access those filtered sites suspected of potentially hosting copyrighted material. Damn, that sounds sad.

    Hate to break it to you but most web sites you could ever even think of accessing will be hosting copyrighted material. That's right not just potentially hosting copyrighted material but actually hanging up copyrighted material for anyone to download.

    To avoid getting copyrighted material, you'd have to find a country that did not sign the Berne Convention treaty, but even then the material might be under copyright. Alternately, even the countries in the Berne Convention treaty might have material online that has been made Public Domain either because the copyright expire or the rights holder (not the creator) put it into the public domain. Even then you'll have to download (and read) pages of copyrighted information to get at the PD stuff.

    Alternately you can just download as much copyrighted material as you want. Try starting from these sites:

    And remember, there's more where that came from.

    --
    Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
    1. Re:Accessing copyrighted material - how to do it by mdsharpe · · Score: 1

      Hate to break it to you

      You make it sound like you have arrived with sad news. I am fully aware that my post was not entirely technically accurate. However, I am sure most people understood what I meant. I agree that we should be clear with our terms, and I hope those writing the laws are (and haven't all got Internet Protocol and Intellectual Property mixed up too often). I thank you for your extensive list of copyrighted material, and will try to keep an eye out for any more I may find on my travels.

  36. this is a lie by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

    non-incumbent parties have fringe ideologies. so they don't appeal to many people. that is why they fail, plain and simple

    meanwhile, if a non-incumbent party actually discovers a message that DOES appeal to many people, they experience success.... a major party takes notice, and that ideology is quickly coopted by the major party... and the non-incumbent party fades again

    witness ross perot in the 1990s. and witness the tea parties/ republicans now. of course, the republicans don't HAVE to adopt tea party rhetoric. then what happens is the tea party REPLACES the republicans (like how the whigs were replaced for becoming ideologically obsolete)... and then... its back to two major parties all over again. and in that future of two new dominate political parties, tea versus democratic, you will find, again, some crank like you whining in an internet post the tired, false wheeze that fringe opposition is "shut up" (when the truth is, it simply doesn't have much appeal)

    folks: the fact we have 2 major dominant parties is a matter of statistical inevitability, not centralized control. if you ran the rules of politics in the usa in a computer simulation, time and again, two parties would come to dominate: one slightly to the left, one slightly to the right. its simple inevitability. there's no control going on here, its a self-emergent phenomenon

    deal with this simple truth and adjust your persecution complex accordingly. thanks

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
  37. It is a tool by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Religion is a tool, it can be used for good (volunteerism, encouragement, togetherness) or it can be used for evil (genocide, censorship, discrimination). People in power want more power, some of them see religion as a way to increase their power.

    Those arguing for the elimination of religion strike me as being as stupid as those who say that selling kitchen knives should be illegal (also a tool that can be used for fell deeds). It would accomplish nothing, those seeking power would simply find another tool for it (nationalism, racism, classism, money?).

    1. Re:It is a tool by Schadrach · · Score: 1

      My stance is this: Religion is what it is, and the very concept of eliminating it is silly -- people will believe what they believe. At the same time, separation of church and state is about government and it's assorted organs being wholly agnostic. Religions shouldn't get special tax breaks for being religions. "My church runs a homeless shelter!" you say, well then yes, the funds/supplies/etc used to run the homeless shelter should be treated like the resources of any other charity. Other resources the church hold unrelated to charitable work, not so much.

      I have a similar opinion on the whole gay marriage issue. We should separate religious marriage and legal union entirely, and make being able to "marry" people in the legal sense only somewhat more difficult to do than becoming a notary. Clearly enshrine as part of the law that no individual can be forced to marry any two individuals and may choose not to for any reason or no reason at all. Net result: gays can get "married" just as well as anyone else, people against gay marriage don't have to marry them under any circumstances, and people don't have to worry about "wrong" marriages somehow making theirs lesser somehow (never really understood this argument).

  38. Every story I read lately by chrispycreeme · · Score: 1

    about Australia is about another creepy government program to control the minds of it's citizens. Filtering out content that might corrupt old people? What the hell is going on down there? It's worse than the US during the Bush years...

  39. IGF and children by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In 2007, at the UN Internet Governance Forum in Athens (the 3rd of 5 planned WSIS follow-ups), the 'protect the children' groups had a strong presence. It seemed to me there was a tipping point shift from the values of the self-organizing and anarchic internet to the values of commerce and creed.

    As others have posted in this thread, it seems to me this is a reaction to loss of control at the top, information spreading widely, ...

    I'm a member of Exit International, want to choose a death with dignity and grace, and appreciate Exit's work in opening up the discussion and describing available reasonably certain methods. Hospice serves people with terminal diagnoses. I worry about diminishing, deteriorating, the costs not worth the benefits.

    Sylvia

  40. Re:Snappy title for The Great Barrier of Australia by MartinSchou · · Score: 1

    Since Australia was originally used as a penal colony

    Well, this does explain quite a lot.

    The warden doesn't want his inmates running wild, so he has to limit their access. Also, it's really bad prison management to let your prisoners run amok all over the neighbouring areas.

    It's not a firewall - it's the outer wall of a prison. Moat and all.

  41. They r just useless... by hesaigo999ca · · Score: 1

    >which the Australian government thinks breaches the moral compass of society

    They are just pissed because it now shows that without doing anything illegal, such as using a software to proxy passed
    an obstacle, or vpn to bypass security breaches, you have shown the government wasted all that money and effort to impose
    a filter that now even the laymen can subvert.

  42. How quickly we forget by ClosedSource · · Score: 1

    "But its members share an average age of 70. Not exactly from the tech generation."

    John Backus, who lead the team that created FORTRAN, is 82. Although he's not likely to be a potential customer.

  43. You need to be more explicit by ClosedSource · · Score: 1

    Are you saying that the "tech generation" likes the iPad or doesn't like it? (Personally, I doubt there is any relation).

    1. Re:You need to be more explicit by Teun · · Score: 1
      I would say the iPad is aimed at consumers, not techs.

      Though the various video's show a very snappy interface switching applications is still faster on a true multi tasking system.
      And I feel that's what the present generation of techs expects, the iPad's beauty is only a few m deep.

      --
      "The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
  44. How comes 'pirates' provide sloppy advices? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


    Those 'pirates' (and supposedly "experts") advise innocent users to use a VPN fueled by MICROSOFT PPTP.

    That's the flawed by-design beast analysed and denounced by Bruce Schneier 10 years ago:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pptp#References
    http://www.schneier.com/pptp-faq.html

    So, the real question is: if "saving you privacy" is about paying to be spied upon, then you can as well skip the VPN step and be spied upon for free.