Sony Sued Over PS3 "Other OS" Removal

Stoobalou writes "A Californian Playstation 3 user has filed the first class action lawsuit against Sony over removal of the 'Install Other OS' function from the Playstation 3. The action seeks to redress Sony's 'intentional disablement of the valuable functionalities originally advertised as available with the Sony Playstation 3 video game console.' The suit claims that the disablement breaches the sales contract between Sony and its customers and constitutes 'an unfair and deceptive business practice perpetrated on millions of unsuspecting customers.'"

Comments

File a complaint, don't just talk

[sopssa]

You should also file a complaint at your own national consumer agency. I asked the store I bought my PS3 from to restore the Other OS function or offer a refund on the product because the ability was stated in the box. In this case the seller is breaking the law if such stated features are later removed.

They initially refused to offer a refund, so I filed a complaint to the consumer agency. It's important you try to talk with the seller first, and if both parties don't come into a good conclusion, then file a report. They contacted the seller, who then again contacted me and asked me to return the PS3 and they would give me a full refund.

I'm sure stores will first try to say that they cannot offer a refund and it's up to Sony, but if law states they are liable, just take it a bit further and you will get a refund. It will teach Sony a lesson too.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[strack]

national consumer agency? oh please. thats a toothless organisation for distracting idiots from taking proper legal action. i would assume. most agencies of that type are. class action those motherfuckers into honesty.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[V!NCENT]

"class action those motherfuckers into honesty."
Legendary one-liner of classical proportions that even Dirty Harry can't top!

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[Anonymous Coward]

national consumer agency? oh please. thats a toothless organisation for distracting idiots from taking proper legal action. i would assume. most agencies of that type are. class action those motherfuckers into honesty.

Did you notice that you were replying to an anecdote about the agency in question getting results?

ps. Another thing that pops to mind: Maybe you are from the USA, while not everybody else is?

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[commodore64_love]

I love class-action lawsuits. I get lots of free money:

- $25 from the U.S. versus RCA, Sony, et cetera
- $75 from U.S. v. Paypal
- ~$4000 from U.S. v. Equinox (of course I actually gave them $10,000 so that was a bit of a loss)

And so on. I wonder what I'll get out of the PS3 class action deal?

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[qoncept]

It will teach Sony a lesson too.

This comment makes me feel like your whole reasoning behind this was to "teach the store a lesson." But what I'm guessing the way it turned out, you were just a complete jackass that felt like he was in-the-know causing trouble just for the sake of it.

You know they can't "restore the Other OS function" any better than you can. What lesson are you trying to teach them? "Don't do it again?" Don't do what, sell anything that connects to the internet?

If the point was getting your money back because Other OS was your deciding factor on the purchase, good for you. But urging everyone to go pull your shenanigans is a waste of time since the overwhelming majority of people buying this video game console are doing it to play video games.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[Jaysyn]

Why can't you run OS/2 on a Dell?

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[maevius]

You can't sue dell, because they don't advertise that you can run OS/2 on their current systems. You could sue them if they disabled the installation of Vista after the windows 7 release

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[PalmKiller]

Not the same thing. Dell may no longer sell OS/2 on their new systems, but you bet your bottom dollar that if Dell did something to wipe out OS/2 on a still working system...or a closer analogy, break a useful feature of OS/2 on all running systems sold by dell, it would be grounds for a lawsuit.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[Venik]

Obviously, he wasn't addressing the twelve-year-olds. So you may go back to your your FF XIII

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[e70838]

Old computers of Dell can still run OS/2 on their systems. Dell never did what is criticized to Sony.

Sony has sold PS3 with a feature written on the box and on the ads and on the technical descriptions. Many people have chosen the PS3 because of this feature.

The feature is removed after the sell. This is blatantly illegal. Sony has the right to remove feature in new PS3 but not in already sold ones.

Why do you post on /. without at least understanding the subject of the summary ?
I can't believe you have mod points, this should ruin your karma for years.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[deroby]

IMHO, the question here is : did Dell *disable* OS/2 on your (probably old) machine that had been running OS/2 for quite a while already and at the time was sold as "runs OS/2" ?

Didn't think so.

Frankly I can think of quite few people (hobbyists, scientists, ...) that went for a PS/3 *because* it is (probably!) one of the most accessible CELL-based machines around. Having it also do games is an added bonus, or vice versa. I'm not sure on how the DoJ will look upon this, but IMHO Sony did indeed steal functionality away from the user with their move.... few will mind, I'm sure 99% of PS/3 users never understood let alone used said functionality, but then again, it was there for everyone who bought a machine to use, and it was advertised as such too !! I remember at the time it surely helped their 'Hey Sony is playing the nice guy by allowing Linux on their new machine!'-image. First disappointment probably was the hyper-visor and the 3D Gfx not being accessible, and now this... I think it's sad.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[pentalive]

I love class-action lawsuits. ... I wonder what I'll get out of the PS3 class action deal?

A coupon good for $12.50 at any sony store, and if you are lucky best buy.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[Jaysyn]

Oh I see what you did there. You don't have a rational argument, so you just made some stupid shit up.

This is much more like a bios update for a PC with no expansion slots that makes you choose between Internet access & being able to run Linux.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[222]

Can you please provide evidence that OtherOS functionality was stated on the box? According to the many reports I've read, it isn't.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[commodore64_love]

>>>This comment makes me feel like your whole reasoning behind this was to "teach the store a lesson."

Given how many times consumers get screwed by corporations or mega-stores, I agree they need to be taught a lesson. The law is the law and applies to everyone, even corporations. I bought underwear that was supposed to be size medium, but actually had small inside. No big deal, but when I asked for an even exchange they said my receipt was past the 60-day return limit so "sorry we can't exchange sizes".

If your viewpoint I guess I should have just rolled-over and let myself be screwed.

Instead I contacted my credit card, told them what happened, and they reversed the charge on the basis of the merchant not fulfilling contractual obligations (selling the product advertised). So to the Grandparent poster I say: Bravo! You stood up for your rights and enforced the law as written - you wanted a PS3 + Third Party OS and they took that away from you. Perhaps if more of us did that, we wouldn't keep getting trampled underfoot by the likes of Goldman Sachs or the Congress.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[JavaBear]

Maybe, but who better to file a lawsuit than an American. They have taken the whole Damages and compensation to astronomical levels. If THAT doesn't scare Sony into honesty, they have balls of solid Carbon fibre wrapped titanium.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[TheRaven64]

Wait, you're saying that you bought a computer from Dell that was sold as supporting OS/2, and now it no longer runs OS/2? What did Dell do that broke OS/2?

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[Anonymous Coward]

Unfortunately I bought my PS3 in 2007 at a now non-existent Circuit City.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[JavaBear]

Oh please. This is a ridiculous lawsuit that should immediately get thrown out of court.

I might as well try and sue Dell because I can no longer run OS/2 on their systems.

Did Dell remove the ability to run OS/2 from existing systems, and force that change on you, blocking your ability to access the internet untill you accept the loss?

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[commodore64_love]

P.S.

>>>they can't "restore the Other OS function" any better than you can. What lesson are you trying to teach them?

(1) Obey the law even if you don't like it. (2) If enough merchants like Walmart, Kmart, Sears, et cetera lose money due to refunds on Sony's products, then THEY will sue Sony for damages causes to their businesses. And they have far more power than we do to make Sony hurt.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[Wooky_linuxer]

Even if it wasn't stated in the box, it was advertised that it did run Linux. Even people who doesn't need or care about this functionality should stay up to Sony on this. Next time they may remove a funcionality you do care about. Conceptually, it is the same thing as removing the capability of playing Bluray discs.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[tophermeyer]

I love class-action lawsuits. I get lots of free money:

- $25 from the U.S. versus RCA, Sony, et cetera - $75 from U.S. v. Paypal - ~$4000 from U.S. v. Equinox (of course I actually gave them $10,000 so that was a bit of a loss)

And so on. I wonder what I'll get out of the PS3 class action deal?

If Sony plays it smart, all you will get is an offer to return your PS3 for a refund of your purchase price. So few people will actually follow through on the offer that it will be cheaper for Sony than settling and offering a cash payment for each PS3 owner.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[Duradin]

"It will teach Sony a lesson too."

You know what lesson it will teach Sony and every other console maker? To make everything but the barebones ability to play games (that require no network connection) an option not included included with purchase of the base unit. Sure, they might offer free unlocks for some abilities but those won't be on or in the packaging of the console itself.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[Anonymous Coward]

really? Dell sold a specific model that they advertised as being OS/2 compatible and then released a firmware update that intentionally broke OS/2 compatability?

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[Anonymous Coward]

It will teach Sony a lesson too.

You know they can't "restore the Other OS function" any better than you can. What lesson are you trying to teach them? "Don't do it again?" Don't do what, sell anything that connects to the internet?

Don't.. remove functionality from a device, perhaps?

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[Silvrmane]

My Playstation 3 was a "Metal Gear Solid 4" edition. The box has no mention of "OtherOS" capability, anywhere.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[JavaBear]

Next time they may remove a funcionality you do care about.

Which brings to mind the old statement:
"THEY CAME FIRST for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

THEN THEY CAME for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

THEN THEY CAME for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

THEN THEY CAME for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up."

Besides, they won't remove the Blu-ray feature, however they may remove the ability to play BD-R's, though I hope they keep their grubby little mints off my features.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[Nadaka]

I would probably take them up on the offer. If you payed ~$600 for an original ps3, you can get a new slim ps3 and ps2 for that and still have money left over.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[Vectormatic]

i would actually pay extra for that feature...

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[GooberToo]

US Retailers are one of the largest lobbying groups in the US. The hold strong sway over both manufacturers and national sales policies.

While I agree it is backwards to go back to the store, if enough people do so it potentially adds arrows to the quiver to push back at Sony for their illegal actions. And if the retailers choose to push the effort with Sony, they can then claim good faith effort to rectify the issue whereby Sony is the only obstacle to issuing refunds. Bluntly, retailers are as much a victim as consumers.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[GameMaster]

Consumer agencies aren't bad, but a better group to focus on, at least in the U.S., are the state district attorneys. Most states have laws criminalizing bait-and-switch tactics. You don't get to sell a product claiming it can do functions X, Y, and Z then fix it so it can't do function Z long after you've been paid. Criminal charges would take the issue to a whole new level and could set a clear legal precedent that this kind of crap is unacceptable. State attorneys general, also, tend to be young, ambitious, politicians looking to make a name for themselves by taking on cases that are highly publicly visible and populist. If you can convince one, if not a large number, of states to go after Sony with criminal charges they'll be much hotter under the collar.

-Shawn

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[__aasqbs9791]

Yeah, but you'd probably still have to have your receipt, and many people won't. So you'd probably get the ebay price (whatever that is now).

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[iapetus]

They've also taken the whole 'screwing with consumer rights' thing to astronomical levels. You can sue the crap out of Sony, but they might turn out to be allowed to take your immortal soul, first-born child, and Linux running functionality.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[Anonymous Coward]

Wasn't backwards compatability also advertised and then removed?

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[grapeape]

You say that as if its a bad thing...I would bet that the majority of gamers would rather have a less expensive console purely for gaming than the expensive swiss army knife consoles we have today....why do you think the Wii is absolutely crushing the PS3 and 360.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[Anonymous Coward]

The Australian Competition and Consumer Commission (http://www.accc.gov.au/) is great for smacking down organisations that try to rip off the consumer. Anyone can file a complaint with them about any corporation that is breaking the laws regarding competition, advertising, sales, customer relations, returns/exchanges/refund, etc, they will investigate and they will fine (can be quite large fines too) the company in question if the situation is not rectified (or the breach is big enough to warrant the fines even with a rectified situation).

The only thing they have been soft on (but appear to be acting on now) is the pricing of petrol which tends to get more expensive on Thursday->Saturdays and during holidays/long weekends and go down on the rest of the time and the apparent price collusion between the big oil companies to help maintain profits and drive independent petrol stations out of business.

You guys in the USA tend to reject any sort of government involvement in anything because you tend to only have regulations and laws which are biased towards the companies/corporations and give the consumers the short end of the stick. If you actually got some decent laws and regulations rather then the crap you get now, you probably wouldn't have caused a global recession.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[Homr Zodyssey]

One problem with this tactic is that you will only get a refund on the PS3 itself. I despise Sony, so I'd never own one, but I do have a Wii. If I were to make some principled stand and demand my money back for my Wii, sure, I'd get the $250 back. But then I've got $500 in useless Wii games gathering dust on a shelf plus the Rock Band equipment, extra Wiimotes, charging station, etc.

The strategy of demanding a refund is not acceptable to anyone who's made further investments in the system.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[Tanktalus]

That'd be a perfect lesson to learn.

That way, people who only bought the PS3 because it advertised the Linux option would not have bought it, reducing the PS3's sales, which would have reduced their numbers that could be reported to shareholders. It would have been seen as less popular in your timeline than in reality, possibly snowballing into fewer sales even among those who weren't interested in the Linux feature. Even those who only bought it for the Linux feature likely bought a game or two (some may have even bought many games), each purchase involving a licensing fee back to Sony, which means that without the Linux feature, they probably would have sold fewer games (got less in license fees from other vendors' games). Heck, just with the lower sales figures, there may have been fewer games made and released for the PS3, since the market would have seemed (and been) smaller, and maybe not worth the risk of spending millions in development.

So, yes, they need to learn that when they develop something intended to increase marketshare, they need to deliver. And not take it away later.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[tlhIngan]

Even if it wasn't stated in the box, it was advertised that it did run Linux. Even people who doesn't need or care about this functionality should stay up to Sony on this. Next time they may remove a funcionality you do care about. Conceptually, it is the same thing as removing the capability of playing Bluray discs.

Well, Sony certainly "advertises" it in their manual:

http://www.playstation.com/ps3-openplatform/manual.html
http://www.playstation.com/ps3-openplatform/index.html
http://manuals.playstation.net/document/en/ps3/3_15/settings/osinstall.html

Choice quote from the second link:

There is more to the PLAYSTATION®3 (PS3(TM)) computer entertainment system than you may have assumed. In addition to playing games, watching movies, listening to music, and viewing photos, you can use the PS3(TM) system to run the Linux operating system.

It may not be on the box, but it's certainly documented on Sony's own websites

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[VGPowerlord]

why do you think the Wii is absolutely crushing the PS3 and 360.

Price. The Wii went on sale for $250 USD when the cheapest the cheapest Xbox 360 model was $300 USD (but had no storage, no ability to play Xbox or XBLA games without buying a separate HDD... which cost another $100, wired controllers, and no wireless networking), and the cheapest PS3 model was $500 USD.

The market has changed a bit since then. The current prices for the cheapest models are:
Wii $200 USD, Xbox 360 $200 (still no wireless networking built in, but it has a 512MB memory unit like the Wii), PS3 $300 (but no PS2 compatibility).

In fact, the PS3 and Xbox 360 $300 models are fairly similar, down to the HDD size (120GB). The main difference (besides the games they play) are that the 360 is backwards compatible with Xbox games, while the PS3 has wireless networking built in.

Unsurprisingly, the Wii's sales have slowed, while the PS3's sales have risen.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[Anonymous Coward]

[...]keep their grubby little mints off my features.

It's mitts, like mittens.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[blackraven14250]

It's not really their fault when it comes to "obeying the law" as per point #1. Sony decided to push a firmware update on the people who own PS3s, not Best Buy. Best Buy had literally nothing to do with that decision-making process.

I agree with you on point #2, though.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[squiggleslash]

Unsurprisingly, the Wii's sales have slowed, while the PS3's sales have risen.

But are still higher.

Anyway, you're both wrong. The Wii is an everyman console, designed and heavily marketed with an unusual game set that has obvious appeal to virtually everyone. While both Sony and Microsoft have made some steps in that direction, they're still well behind and to a certain extent have already lost - Man On The Street already associates Wii with those kinds of things, and X-Box 360 and PS3s with more traditional "gamers games".

Price doesn't really come into it, especially given the fact that for the first year or two, the Wii's $250 advertised price was far below the real prices for the consoles, which in practice tended to be somewhat higher than the '360's, and had the added disadvantage of only being available from "people who know people" or eBay. The Wii's perceived value was much higher than the perceived value of the other consoles, and people were prepared to pay those kinds of prices.

(I think it's funny BTW that the Wii is being held up as an example of a barebones console without any gimmicks. Has the GP ever used a Wii? Or, you know, read about one?! OK, it doesn't play DVDs, does that really mean it's bare bones?)

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[Anonymous Coward]

There's likely more to the sales figure on Wii hardware vs. PS3. Remember, the PS3 has had some major releases of AAA-raded games in the past few months such as Heavy Rain, FF13, and God Of War 3. The Wii hasn't had many new major releases in the past few months. Nintendo has some major things coming out this summer (Metroid, Mario Galaxy 2), so it would help to compare the two under somewhat-similar circumstances.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[JavaBear]

Thanks :)

Mints is something quite different, and far more tasty.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[snowraver1]

I'd probably return it anyways and then buy a shiny new one. That way you can make a stand and play your games too, while getting a shiny new console! It's not that bad. Return your 'broken' PS3 and get and then buy a crippled one.

I'm a bitchy consumer. I don't like getting screwed and I will go out of my way to inconvienience others to make up for it.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[JWSmythe]

    Most likely if Sony loses, they'll have to pay for the difference in value.

    The PS3 is a gaming console that plays games, and a seldom used portion is the "Other OS" functionality. Sure, some people used it, but the majority of consoles never used it. I wouldn't be surprised that if (big if) they lose, it'll be a check for $10, or something trivial like that.

    It will probably be argued that keeping the functionality in was an undue burden due to the small number of users who actually used it. In the newest firmware there were technical reasons for not including it.

   

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[Duradin]

I may be underestimating the number of people who bought a $300+ console solely because of being able to run Linux but I think the more likely scenario is that not many people (the world is bigger than /.) cared about Other OS enough to make it a major reason for buying it. The change in total sales probably wouldn't have been large enough to make the last digit change by one in however many decimal places they track out to.

And now they've got this little used feature poised to cost them real money. Basically, don't expect to see any other console maker make this mistake again by including this sort of capability.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[volxdragon]

A coupon good for $12.50 at any sony store, and if you are lucky best buy.

You call that LUCKY??!?

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[qoncept]

Given how many times consumers get screwed by corporations or mega-stores, I agree they need to be taught a lesson.

Right, right, but what the fuck was the lesson?

CIA Superior: What did we learn, Palmer?
CIA Officer: I don't know, sir.
CIA Superior: I don't fuckin' know either. I guess we learned not to do it again.
CIA Officer: Yes, sir.
CIA Superior: I'm fucked if I know what we did.

Seriously, identify the next similar situation for me. I'd like to know how, as a vendor, you prevent something like this from happening. The way I see it, you have two options. 1) Stop selling, as I said in my OP, anything with a network interface. Or, 2) keep selling them because they sell ridiculous volumes and eat the cost when the company responsible puts you in a tough spot, since you're still filthy fucking rich from it.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[kimvette]

End users complaining to Sony makes little difference unless it's hundreds of end users each day.

End users are not whom Sony considers their customer; they consider the resellers to be their customers.

What it will take to break sony is end users pissing of resellers, so the resellers in turn get pissed off at Sony with RMAs and threats to stop carrying the product line.

What GP did will hurt the reseller a bit (after all, they are only the reseller) but that is the way to hit Sony.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[geekoid]

If you aren't lucky, you get two $12.50 coupons to best buy~

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[VGPowerlord]

They advertised it on the older models, but not the newer ones.

Also, they didn't pull backwards compatibility from models after the sale via a firmware update.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[geekoid]

That's a complete myth started by insurance companies lying to congress.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[geekoid]

Who said anything about support?

Had Dell gone into my computer and removed the ability to run OS/2 after I had bought it as an OS/2 machine, then yeah they should be sued.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[geekoid]

The lesson is:
Stop selling Sony made products. If A few major retailers did this, Sony would change their tune, or at least go about it in a responsible manner.

Also, the vendor can then sue Sony.

If best buy, wal-mart, and frys just didn't place an order for any Sony good for one month, Sony would behave, anmd probably put this feature back in.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[Anonymous Coward]

I work for a big mega corporation, I sell patio furniture, lawn mowers, grills, etc, etc. The store itself gets kicked around by corporate more than you could imagine; and we get kicked around by customers, that are unhappy with the corporate office. Please leave the store out of it, contact corporate directly and make it absolutely clear that the store has nothing to do with the poor quality of product X.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[thtrgremlin]

I haven't had any problems with Sony in many years. They have always lived up to my hope and expectation. Not once since I stop buying any products or services from them have they done me wrong. We have a much better relationship these days.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[geekoid]

That slogan tell me one thing:
The person who they ultimate came fro was too stupid to join up when he had the chance.

When the world becomes a police state, be sure you are the police.

The same saying could be said of computers.

"THEY CAME FIRST for the people who compute trajectories,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a person who computes trajectories,.

THEN THEY CAME for the the analog watches
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't an analog watch..

THEN THEY CAME for the accountants,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't an accountant

THEN THEY CAME for the auto factory workers,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't auto factory worker

THEN THEY CAME for me
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't John Conner"

BAH da du da du dum

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[CapnStank]

I think you're all missing the point. The path the GP poster made was not necessarily to Best buy or whoever but to Sony. There's two scenarios:

1) You call the 1-800 Sony line and get Prakesh on the other line. For all you know he sympothizes with you but is powerless to do anything. He can't give you back Other OS, he can maybe apologize and bring it to management who proceeds to ROFL (yes, on the floor) and then scrap your complaint.

2) You take your purchase back to Best Buy: under law they are forced to return your price and then duke it out against Sony about the return charge.

Who do you think Sony listens to? Joe, who is upset with their firmware on the line, or Best Buy USA whose upper management is yelling at you because they got a surplus of PS3s that they've been forced to refund because of your shit decision?

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[digitalunity]

I have a Wii and I like it. It has a few enjoyable family games.

I don't like the game selection though and the interface is not good for the games I want to play. I like shooters and the Wii has no selection for adult oriented games. It does what it was meant to do very well and people looking for family friendly entertainment really are the sales driver.

The Xbox and PS3 are more geared towards older teens and adults. I guess my point is that although they have similar technical capabilities, the Wii is not in the same market as the PS3 and Xbox. There is some overlap so they do compete to some extent, but not nearly like the Xbox and PS3 compete with each other.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[Anonymous Coward]

why do you think the Wii is absolutely crushing the PS3 and 360.

[citation desperately needed, and remember that number of consoles sold is not a sufficient metric on its own]

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[spongman]

oh, the irony is thick here. dell actually has pretty good support for old operating systems - just go to their driver download page for a reasonably old system, you'll see drivers for various windows versions, OS/2, potentially linux drivers, if available, etc...

the irony here is that Sony's support for running older/newer versions of operating systems on its Viao PCs is atrocious. if you want to upgrade to the latest version of windows you'll often be met with support advice which can be summarized simply: "buy a new Viao".

Disclaimer: I used to work for Sony. I would NEVER buy another piece of hardware from them except maybe to replace my 10-year-old 7506's.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[balbus000]

Why did it take you two months to open a pair of underwear?

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[commodore64_love]

>>>I'd like to know how, as a vendor, you prevent something like this from happening.

Isn't it obvious? When a customer comes into your store and says, "My PS3 no longer runs linux. I'd like a refund," don't push the customer out the door. He will simply call-in the Consumer Protection Agency and get you, the vendor, in trouble. That's the lesson.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[Arccot]

"It will teach Sony a lesson too."

You know what lesson it will teach Sony and every other console maker? To make everything but the barebones ability to play games (that require no network connection) an option not included included with purchase of the base unit. Sure, they might offer free unlocks for some abilities but those won't be on or in the packaging of the console itself.

Come on now. They advertised what is a pretty important feature to some people, and decided to take it away without compensation. It's not like the feature even stopped working, Sony actively removed the capability from the PS3.

I don't really get the "hard-luck Sony" attitude. If they took out the ability to play games, would you still be defending them? How about the ability to play Blu-Ray movies? Those are the features of the device that consumers paid for.

As far as console manufacturers producing less versatile consoles in the future, your argument doesn't really make sense. The manufacturers are going to make consoles with whatever features they believe will keep them competitive, advertise them as usual, and live or die by their offerings. And hopefully stop trying to pull a bait-and-switch on consumers.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[Tanktalus]

I didn't say "solely to run Linux". But I bet that if you include the number of people who were humming and hawing on whether to plunk down $300-$600 for the console, and bought it because additional promised features brought the value up to be worth it to them, such as the OtherOS option, the number might be much larger. Would it be significant? Hard to tell. But if it isn't, and Sony decides to sell OtherOS as an extra-cash add-on, I still think that's a win for everyone. Users who don't think it's worth the extra cash won't bother, and Sony will have been very explicit about selling an option, and will need to keep it supported. But maybe that's just me. I haven't even turned on my PS2 in years (though the SuperNintendo was turned on and played within the last month), nevermind bought a PS3. And I run Linux on my PCs. So it doesn't really affect me.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[commodore64_love]

I like the cut of your jib (I like how you think).

PLUS because the bait-and-switch refund would be what you originally paid (say $400) and prices have dropped since then ($300), you'd actually have a shiny-new PS3 console plus some spare cash.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[commodore64_love]

>>>pricing of petrol which tends to get more expensive on Thursday->Saturdays and during holidays/long weekends

So?

Hotels do the same thing. It's not a crime. It's supply-and-demand. Demand goes up; hotel price goes up. Demand goes down; price goes down, in order to attract people.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[Anonymous Coward]

because the Wii is cheap and not for real gamers. its for soccer moms and by the way it's not just a console, it is also a work out facility.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[bugi]

Be sure to demand a refund for all the games you bought too. After all, they're going to be even less useful once you've turned in the the ps3 for the refund. Best get rid of them now anyway, before sony realizes what a good idea MS had in killing off multiplayer support.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[Red Flayer]

...when I asked for an even exchange they said my receipt was past the 60-day return limit so "sorry we can't exchange sizes".
...
Instead I contacted my credit card, told them what happened, and they reversed the charge on the basis of the merchant not fulfilling contractual obligations (selling the product advertised).

Can you tell us who the credit card issuer was, because I'd like to research switching a card to them. I'm curious what card issuer would have honored a request like that more than 60 days past date of sale. Most will not honor requests for charge reversals after 30 days, though I've had some luck with Amex between 30 and 60 days.

It surely wasn't Visa or Mastercard, since they are contractually obligated to the merchants not to reverse charges after 30 days past sale. Maybe the credit card company just ate it, since the cost of a 3-pack of tighty-whities was insignificant to the amount of money they're making off you.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[bugi]

Exactly. When you sell stuff like this, you set yourself up as the most accessible responsible party for these hapless "consumers" who fell for the latest marketing gimmick. I sure hope you made some profit on these sell-under-cost-and-make-it-up-in-volume scams, because you are the fall guy.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[HTH NE1]

Unfortunately I bought my PS3 in 2007 at a now non-existent Circuit City.

Not entirely.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[s73v3r]

I have an EE degree. What's a good 2nd degree? CMP ENG or Comp Sci? I want to be eligible to apply for more jobs.

Go for the Comp Sci degree. A CENG degree is already kind of a hybrid between EE and Computer Science, and its kinda new so not many employers know what it is, really. I have a CENG degree, and while I was looking for jobs, I kept hearing that industry was looking for, "EEs that can program." Which is kinda what a CENG was, but the weren't interested in that.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[Moryath]

Not far off the mark. I had two "leftovers" gift cards for BB once - one had like 5 bucks and change, one about 10 bucks.

Tried to put them both down for a game that was marked down on sale to $20. First they hassled me over using them on a sale item. Then they tried to say I could only use one gift card per item so I'd need to buy another item.

If it were coupons, maybe. But they were fucking GIFT CARDS. Worst Buy had already taken the ACTUAL MONEY that they represented, from the gift giver.

Haven't bought anything from Shit Buy since. Not worth the fucking hassle.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[boniggy]

when I asked for an even exchange they said my receipt was past the 60-day return limit

ewwww you didnt wear underwear for 60days?

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[vegiVamp]

More importantly, they have small country's population's worth of lawyers, and the warchests to buy their loyalty for years. I'm afraid that this suit will have to be won on the attention that can be generated by mass participation of consumers.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[Anonymous Coward]

Just because they don't support it doesn't mean you can't get OS/2 running on a Dell. It just means they won't provide tech support or modern drivers. OS/2 will probably run fine with the time tested VESA graphic driver and be able to access basic hardware through the BIOS interfaces. You may be out of luck with the sound card and web cam, but I bet there is a hobbyist working on that.

Sony didn't just discontinue Linux support, they sabotaged existing customers' devices.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[Adrian Lopez]

I'd rather buy a bare-bones console than pay for a feature that's then taken away from me.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[Anonymous Coward]

No, but it's a problem when they start doing anti-competitive things like cartel behaviour and price gouging http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml?itemId=280309

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[greg1104]

I don't think you realize exactly what Sony did here. Back when they were fighting the war against HD-DVD, they loved these Linux sales. Every user who bought a PS3 for reasons besides playing games was listed on the headcount of active Bluray players, and therefore served their master plan to kill off their competitor though showing superior market share.

Now that said competitor is gone, they'd prefer not to sell to or support those users, and so they're just killing them off. Sony has finished with using them now and now is actively fucking them over. All of us who leaned toward buying a PS3 due the Linux feature have been intentionally played here.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[nomadic]

Go with pharmacy or nursing. I think in today's climate it's better to have multiple specialties rather than be really good at one thing.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[ToasterMonkey]

option not included included with purchase of the base unit. Sure, they might offer free unlocks for some abilities but those won't be on or in the packaging of the console itself.

You say that as if its a bad thing...I would bet that the majority of gamers would rather have a less expensive console purely for gaming than the expensive swiss army knife consoles we have today....why do you think the Wii is absolutely crushing the PS3 and 360.

ROFL, queue up all the "I bought product blah with features x, y, and z AAAArrrrrtificially disabled, I am entitled to use them for free" buttholes.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[ToasterMonkey]

And so on. I wonder what I'll get out of the PS3 class action deal?

A shitty Linux live CD?

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[Anonymous Coward]

That's fine, then atlast we can leave the stuff that requires professionals to the correct people rather than some company claiming...

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[Iceykitsune]

Wasn't backwards compatability also advertised and then removed?

but, they did not remove it from the systems that did have it, just made new units that did not.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[plague3106]

If your viewpoint I guess I should have just rolled-over and let myself be screwed.

Actually ya. You have a duty to make sure you PROMPTLY examine what you bought. Your own post says you waited longer than 60 days to do so, so I personally would have no sympathy for you. That your card issuer agrees with you means they want to keep you happy, not that you were right.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[91degrees]

This is much more like a bios update for a PC with no expansion slots that makes you choose between Internet access & being able to run Linux.

Uhm... Isn't that exactly what they did rather than just "like" what they did?

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[plague3106]

I would simply order from Amazon then. See, the reason the stores keep selling sony is because people want to buy sony products. If you really want to affect change, customers would have to stop buying sony. Personally, I see no reason to do so and have been happy with the sony stuff I have.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[plague3106]

push back at Sony for their illegal actions

What law did they break removing the feature? The case is a class action, civil in nature so this is more along the lines of a contract dispute, but if you think they broke a law, please tell me which one.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[plague3106]

No one has ever shown me one advertisement where sony included the "other os" as a feature. At most, its in the manual which you see after you open the box (and indeed was the first time i'd ever heard of it). So please, provide a citation to an ad from sony that touted the other os feature.

Notice that they DO advertise you can watch BD movies on it.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[plague3106]

A manual is not an advertisement.

An ad is something you see to intice you to buy a product. A manual explains the product AFTER you've purchased it. The fact that they documented it is irrelevent; it was a bonus feature that they never cared to tell anyone about.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you seriously comparing the removal of the "Other OS" feature from the Playstation 3 with the murder of millions of (in no particular order) jews, sinti, roma, homosexuals, social democrats, socialists, anarchists and others by the nazis?

That's not a rhethorical question, either; I'm honestly wondering.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[plague3106]

If that's your assertion, then surely you can point to an ad that touts the other os feature, right?

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[Opportunist]

Quite dead on.

The Wii is, IMO, best described as a "party console". The games require little, if any, training time to "compete", and competing at the games is actually not the main point of playing. Playing is. Watching the others gyrate and try to hit some ball or whatever with the wiggly stick. It's not about precision, it's not about good timing, it's all about fun. And that fun doesn't come from "beating" a game, not even from beating the other gamers, the console actually takes a back seat when it comes to the "fun generation" behind the fact that everyone's jumping and flailing.

And there it also means jack whether the graphics are state of the art or as cartoonish as they usually tend to be on the Wii. As stated above, the console is just some tool to provide feedback to the players and their audience. Actually, playing with the Wii is a bit of a spectator sport, too. In general, I'd see the target audience in people who enjoy having friends over and, instead of playing some board game, let's play some Wii game.

X360 and PS3 are aiming at a completely different market segment and a comletely different kind of gamer. Most games take a lot of practice to master and usually, if multiplayer, require networked consoles to play with each other. The games are also usually much more competitive and training and skill get usually rewarded a lot more. Watching someone play is also not necessarily something I'd consider entertaining. The target audience is pretty clear cut, people wanting to play their games at home, either alone or networked across the internet.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[Jaysyn]

I was actually going to type *exactly* but I figured some nitpicker would come along with a reason why it wasn't exactly like my description.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[Anonymous Coward]

>>>This comment makes me feel like your whole reasoning behind this was to "teach the store a lesson."

Given how many times consumers get screwed by corporations or mega-stores, I agree they need to be taught a lesson. The law is the law and applies to everyone, even corporations. I bought underwear that was supposed to be size medium, but actually had small inside. No big deal, but when I asked for an even exchange they said my receipt was past the 60-day return limit so "sorry we can't exchange sizes".

If your viewpoint I guess I should have just rolled-over and let myself be screwed.

Instead I contacted my credit card, told them what happened, and they reversed the charge on the basis of the merchant not fulfilling contractual obligations (selling the product advertised). So to the Grandparent poster I say: Bravo! You stood up for your rights and enforced the law as written - you wanted a PS3 + Third Party OS and they took that away from you. Perhaps if more of us did that, we wouldn't keep getting trampled underfoot by the likes of Goldman Sachs or the Congress.

In what Fantasy world is Best Buy responsible for a product being modified after the sale? You're an idiot.

It was working fine, perfect until you received a firmware update from Sony's online service. So Best Buy held up their end of the sale just fine and they are not responsible for refunding squat. You're past their return policy so it's your job to deal
with the vendor of your product. That's how LIFE works.

You shouldn't roll over and be screwed but refuting charges is a big waste of time/money for both your cc company and bestbuy. Not to mention it's borderline fraud. If you have a problem you take it up with Sony. If they won't listen to you, then you sue them.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[Anonymous Coward]

You keep posting that same statement, yet in most countries I know of it's completely irrelevant. Have you studied your local consumer rights?

It's usually enough if it was "known" - and information off Sony's own web (no matter who told you) would constitute that.

While the article is about the US, earlier articles have been about the EU. I live in a european country and there are no doubts I could either return my PS3 or get a partial refund.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[91degrees]

LOL! Nothing you can do will stop us nitpickers:)

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[Anonymous Coward]

How is that redundant? Do we have a worst buy or sony fanboi with mod points today?

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[Jaysyn]

I honestly didn't think the nit would have been picked in that direction.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[GooberToo]

Bait and switch - fraud.

If you say you provide something and then don't after purchase, that's fraud.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[Threni]

For the record, in the UK it's the retailer, not the manufacturer, who deals with problems. And in the UK there's the Sale Of Goods Act, part of which states that goods should be `fit for the purpose intended`. This makes it difficult (well, impossible really) to remove something which was there when you bought it.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[mattack2]

You did say "it advertised the Linux option".

Nobody has shown that Sony "advertised" it. The manual is something owners typically see post-purchase. An advertisement is something that people see pre-purchase. Where was the Linux capability mentioned, by Sony, to woo customers?

(Don't get me wrong, I think it stinks that a feature, albeit IMHO an infinitesimally minor feature compared to game playing & BluRay playing, is being taken away, and Sony should do something like give a coupon off of a game purchase *for those who actually complaint to them about it*.. Maybe even a relatively small rebate check.)

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[mattack2]

Kinda new? Computer Engineering was 'kinda new' when I majored in it (and got a degree), starting in 1987.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[mattack2]

written on the box and on the ads

[citation needed]

(I will grant you that the manual may count as the "technical descriptions" term you use.)

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[HTH NE1]

If I wanted a refund, I'd want a refund for the console, the games, the DLC, and all the Blu-ray movies I bought for it too. I don't expect I'd get the Blu-ray refunds, but I certainly feel I should get refunds for the games that no longer allow me to play them unless I accept their update.

But I don't want a refund. I don't want a couple coupons. I don't want a cash settlement. I want:

1. my system restored to function,
   1. feature-frozen to the update that didn't remove this feature,
   2. compatibility of my existing library of games to the on-line service restored
      a. on that console to the level prior to this update or
      b. on a second console that
      1. has all the capabilities of my previous console sans the Other OS, but including backwards compatibility and SACD support,
      2. my trophies and other recorded progress in games ported from the original console, and
      3. warranty,
   3. while still retaining my original console,
2. ability to choose to opt out of forced updates delivered on-line or on any physical media including but not limited to CDs, DVDs, Blu-rays, USB storage media, and game disks, and
3. a public apology, acknowledgment of wrongdoing, and binding vow not to repeat such actions by Sony with added damages attached.

The last item may be negotiable. Basically, give me a second PS3 matching my existing PS3. If porting everything from old to new is not feasible, let me install Other OS on the new one and I'll update the original.

No, I'm not asking the same of Microsoft re:original XBOX, because Microsoft is not being an ass (though why they couldn't have fragmented Live, segregating original XBOX Live users from 360 users (like PC Live users are) by moving the latter to new servers with an update I don't know).

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[HeronBlademaster]

I have in my lap the box for an original 60GB PS3. No mention of "OtherOS" here, either. (I'm sure it's in the manuals, but I can't be bothered to pull them out.)

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[plague3106]

Show me a single advertisement which included the other os feature. Otherwise, no bait and switch.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[HTH NE1]

Oh, and if the controllers are not compatible with other Bluetooth devices, I'd want a refund on those too. And their chargers. And the chat pad (doesn't work right with other devices). And any other peripherals.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[msgyrd]

Well, he did say he bought them on credit. Hard times, man, hard times.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[mabhatter654]

This may also be a tax violation as well. In many countries "electronic games" are taxed at near 50% as luxury items. "Computers" are for business so get a reduced import tax..... Sony would also be "tax evading" by doing this in some countries... so it clearly was a "feature".

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, Sony is expected to sell more PS3 consoles than both Nintendo's Wii and Microsoft's Xbox by the end of each of there life cycle.

Why? Well sure wii is cheaper.. roughly 2/3 the price of an average ps3 or xbox 360. But the graphics in the xbox and ps3 are what probably twice as good? You get what you pay for.. only a $100 more dollars.

PS3 will obviously out sell xbox 360 eventually because of the free online account and as more titles are released for it.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[flabordec]

they said my receipt was past the 60-day return limit so "sorry we can't exchange sizes".

Really? It took you more than 60 days to notice that your underwear was smaller than it was supposed to be?

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[shabble]

Instead I contacted my credit card, told them what happened, and they reversed the charge on the basis of the merchant not fulfilling contractual obligations (selling the product advertised).

Can you tell us who the credit card issuer was, because I'd like to research switching a card to them.

Any credit card issuer is obligated to refund under these circumstances for purchases between £100 and £30,000 in the UK.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[spyder913]

Wow, that's pretty bad. Just as a counterpoint, I used 3 different gift cards on the purchase of one item once. Granted, I had a leftover with $3.66 on it that just taunts me, but they didn't hassle me at all.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[Fremandn]

No. I believe the original poster is just communicating the notion that people do not care about what happens to other until it matters to them. The poem just expresses (really well) how low the phenomenon can take us.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[Igottapoop]

How about from Sony's site, playstation.com? http://www.playstation.com/ps3-openplatform/index.html

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[Khyber]

I still have my box - it's stated RIGHT ON THE SIDE.

it was also heavily advertised on Sony's website - thank you archive.org.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[Khyber]

The manual will state it if it's *ANY* fat PS3.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[Khyber]

"I like shooters and the Wii has no selection for adult oriented games."

What? Buddy there are plenty of FPS shooters on the Wii. Here is a list for you and Keesa is a Wii adult game.

Try looking harder on the shelves sometime, or ignore the NA market and look in other markets.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[Khyber]

"Where was the Linux capability mentioned, by Sony, to woo customers?"

Let's see, on Slashdot it was advertised, it was advertised on Sony's website quite often (check archive.org) and IIRC I even saw the mention of Linux in one of their TV ads. My visual memory sucks since my accident so I can't be too sure on that one.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[Anonymous Coward]

If you got it early on, then this might actually be a good plan, because they've gone down in price. You could just buy a new one for half what you're refunded. I can't believe people wouldn't do this for the few hundred the price has changed for. That said, you'd need to back up anything saved on it.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[Khyber]

"A coupon good for $12.50 at any sony store, and if you are lucky best buy."

I see someone has no clue how class action settlements or judgments work.

I'm poised to see at least $250 from EA over Spore, as are most others involved in the suit, *IF* the judge approves.

It's all dependent upon the judge, and constitution.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[Khyber]

"If Sony plays it smart,"

Sony doesn't have that option - we're pressing the suits and we're going to be filing for maximum damages, and we're *NOT* going to let it go. It will be taken to a full trial if necessary to get a permanent injunction against Sony products being sold in the USA.

Yes, we are that pissed.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[Khyber]

California has far more restrictive consumer rights laws. That is why the suit was filed in the state of California.

Sony's about to get raped without lube.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[Khyber]

"It surely wasn't Visa or Mastercard, since they are contractually obligated to the merchants not to reverse charges after 30 days past sale."

Wrong. I used my VISA for STALKER (D2D) and three months later after they (D2D) still refused to patch online MP to 1.0006 I called up the credit company and told them to reverse the charges for failure to deliver. I then called Direct2Drive and told them to remove STALKER from my account as I had the charges reversed.

Money was back on my credit two days later.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[Red Flayer]

Any credit card issuer is obligated to refund under these circumstances for purchases between £100 and £30,000 in the UK.

Roughly the same is true in the US, but there is a time limit on filing your dispute in order for the charge to be either (1) charged back to the merchant or (2) placed on hold pending receipt of information from the merchant. I read the link you provided, didn't see anything there about time limits, which is what my post was addressing.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[greg1104]

Of course I can. There's a long list of spots where Sony used to refer to this feature at listed on the PlayedStation blog. The writing at Open Platform for PLAYSTATION 3 is certainly ad copy aimed at the market these are being sold to: people who do their research on-line. I don't believe the print or TV ads mentioned the feature, but Sony's on-line ad campaign, such as material on their web site and interviews done with the press, have plenty of spots where it was highlighted.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[Anonymous Coward]

While this may be the best way to get your money back under current law, it's certainly not fair. All the store did was take your money and give you a Sony-built PS3. They didn't make the unit, they didn't give it Linux support, they didn't advertise it as a feature (beyond what Sony told them to), and they didn't have any part in the removal of the feature from your PS3.

If that's who the law currently holds responsible, then that law needs to be changed. The blame for this rests solidly on Sony's shoulders, not the man in the middle who did nothing more than sell you a piece of merchandise.

Even if a store sold you a PS3 that was broken from day 1, after you return it to them, they would send it back to Sony and either get reimbursed or get another working PS3. The same should apply here; while it would be a nice courtesy and convenience for the store to refund your money, they should not be screwed over for something Sony did which they had no control over.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[Chuck Chunder]

Hotels do the same thing. It's not a crime. It's supply-and-demand. Demand goes up; hotel price goes up. Demand goes down; price goes down, in order to attract people.

The weekly price cycle for petrol in Australia isn't really supply/demand related, there is no supply shortfall on weekends nor any great increase in demand.

The reason it exists is for price differentiation, to extract as much money as possible from the various sections of the customer base.

In a supermarket you'll see multiple packets of pasta ranging (lets says) 90c from $1.80. The price sensitive part of the customer base will buy the cheaper one while other parts may choose to pay more for what is essentially the same thing.

That isn't really possible with petrol so a weekly price cycle exists. On cheap Tuesdays (or is it Wednesday now) the price is lower and price sensitive customers flock to the service stations. Less price sensitive customers (at least those not in immediate need of fuel) will avoid the lengthy queues and go on a more expensive day. Thus the petrol stations extract more money for the same product out of customers who are prepared to pay more.

This only works because all petrol stations "magically" fall into the same cycle and have the same "cheap" day (which is where allegations of price fixing come in).

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[pnewhook]

If you like the old software, then don't upgrade it. Simple.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[pnewhook]

so you just made some stupid shit up

kinda like this lawsuit

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[pnewhook]

Sony isn't changing the hardware you own, they are changing the software you license. If you dont agree to the new terms, don't download the update. Simple.

I see nothing wrong with a company removing a feature that very few people use, is questionably useful and probably costs them a fair amount to maintain.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[pnewhook]

Sony is not forcing the change - don't accept the new update.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[DoctorFrog]

Gosh, I wonder why no one else saw that. Maybe because it's so oversimplified it misses the point entirely?

Yep, that's why. The PS3 was sold as having the functionality to run Linux AND access Playstation Network AND (by implication at least) run all PS3 games.

Keeping the old firmware means that I can't use the Playstation Network, and some new PS3 games will not run on my console.

Sony have retroactively changed the deal so that customers like myself who bought the product on the understanding that it did ALL these things can now only do a subset of them.

In short, they sold me a set of functionalities, took my money for them, then removed some of the functionalities I paid for. Giving me a limited set of choices as to which functionalities I lose doesn't make that right.

Their recent and ongoing "It only does everything" campaign only adds ironic insult to the injury.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[Anonymous Coward]

I once bought a returned MP3 player (Samsung YP-T7Z) from Best Buy for $50 that was selling for $179 new. I used a $25 gift card on it AND got another $20 off at the register because of some special discount they were applying to all MP3 players at the time, so I ended up spending like $6 on it. That was in 2005 and the player still works flawlessly to this day. In fact, it's probably the most durable and reliable MP3 player I have ever used, including Zens, iPods, Zunes and Sansas.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[mjwx]

.why do you think the Wii is absolutely crushing the PS3 and 360.

Because the Wii is fun.

The Xbox and PS3 are consoles that are trying to be PC's, if you game seriously you are on a PC, these so called "hard core" consoles are poor knock offs. The Wii on the other hand is simple, causal fun. Don't get me wrong, this is a good thing(TM) and went missing from consoles circa 1997, personally I'm glad to see it back as I can once again get a group of friends around to play games and it doesn't matter about their skill level, everyone has fun.

If I have a girl around, what is she more likely to enjoy playing, God of War or Mario Kart.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[westlake]

I wonder what I'll get out of the PS3 class action deal?
A coupon good for $12.50 at any sony store, and if you are lucky best buy.

That sounds about right.

The PS3 Fat was released in 2006.

Production ended in 2009. Warranties are expiring. More and more of these systems are selling at the used, refurbished, or scratch and dent price. By the time the class action winds down sales will have sunk to the garage sale price.

You are never going to see a settlement check for original retail list.

What you will see - at best - is a rough estimate of the market value of the OtherOS in the PS3 console video game market.

Of the 23 million or so owners of a PS3 FAT, how many do suppose will ever hear of the settlement or bother to complete the paperwork required to collect their share? Which will be months in processing.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[Anonymous Coward]

Please post a link to a picture of the box! I don't have a box or a manual because I purchased mine used on ebay, but I bought it knowing that it supported Other OS. In fact this was the MAIN reason that I purchased a PS3 instead of an Xbox 360. The day after I received my PS3 in the mail, it was announced that Other OS was being removed in the new firmware. I was SO FUCKING PISSED.

I'm not sure if I am qualified to join the class action suit because I bought my PS3 used, but I am very much in favor of hurting Sony. Maybe they will be forced to simply re-enable the feature -- that would be the best outcome. But if they will not do that, then they definitely need to face injunctions, fines, refunds to customers, etc.. Go forth and WIN this case, for great justice!

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[Anonymous Coward]

Indeed.

Personally, I haven't bought a Sony, or Sony Entertainment product since their little root-kit escapade.

I've been quite happy with our relationship as well.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[Anonymous Coward]

because it's hackable, doh !

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[Jedi Alec]

Actually ya. You have a duty to make sure you PROMPTLY examine what you bought. Your own post says you waited longer than 60 days to do so, so I personally would have no sympathy for you.

[Citation needed]

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[Anonymous Coward]

Lol I tried to buy something from them once that came up to like 14.95 with tax, I tried to buy with a 15dollar gift card, they wouldnt let me beacuse my gift card was worth more then the item and they would have to give me 5 cents back, i told em whatever, keep the 5 cents, they still made me buy something else.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[L1feless]

you've missed the entire point of the quoted text above. Shame on you.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[GooberToo]

Not only did they advertise it, they openly hyped it in press and even subtly offered it to the scientific community as a possible option for supercomputing - which is why the DoD's ears raised about the issue when shipping to foreign countries.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[powerlord]

If I have a girl around, what is she more likely to enjoy playing, God of War or Mario Kart.

Nah, the Wife gets motion sickness from driving games. :)

On the other hand, I've used "Super Rub-a-Dub" as a party game, or when little kids are over.

There may not seem like a lot of casual games out for the PS3, but the on-line PSN store is chock full of them, often costing only $5-$10 each.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[Krazy Kanuck]

So if I purchased a first gen PS3 for $600 I can march down to my local retailer and demand a full refund of the original purchase or will I be compensated for the cost of the current iteration?

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[plague3106]

This is well established in common law. Go ask a lawyer.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[Urkki]

why do you think the Wii is absolutely crushing the PS3 and 360.

Price.

And not spending any resources (R&D costs and time, hardware features, anti-piracy lockdown technologies, documentation, marketing...) on enabling multi-OS support certainly helps to keep the price lower. Or in the Wii's case, profit margins higher, I suppose.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[plague3106]

None of that is advertising. One is a blog, btw, which just points to your second link. The second link is nothing more than a manual, aimed at discussing a feature to an end user who already purchased the PS3... not an advertisment. An ad would be something you see on TV or in print, hear on the radio, or on the marketing for the PS3 online.

Here's what advertising is, since you don't seem to understand the difference between an ad and a manual: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advertising

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[plague3106]

That is a link to a manual telling people about a feature of the ps3, its not something aimed at getting people to buy a PS3.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[plague3106]

Show me where Sony advertised it. Thus far all anyone has done is link to BLOGS not controlled by sony, and the MANUAL for the other os feature. So please, show me something where they were courting the scientific community.

Everytime this comes up, I ask to see where sony advertised it. Not once has anyone ever done anything but link to 3rd party blogs, and the online manual for the other os feature.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[greg1104]

The manual is part of the online marketing for a product nowadays. Ditto for the numerous interviews linked to in the blog entry I suggested; there were too many for me to quote individually. I'm sorry you don't understand how on-line marketing words.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[Khyber]

The box has already been sent to legal for evidence.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[JavaBear]

Actually, they are forcing the update, because if you don't take it, you lose just about everything else.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[Anonymous Coward]

Grandmas.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[pnewhook]

Did you stop to read the licence agreement from Sony that you must have agreed to when you plugged it in and went online? Among other things it states that they can upgrade or remove functionality as they see fit.

You personally may not like it but thats the agreement, and its no different than any other software agreement out there. Certainly not grounds for a class action lawsuit - this should clearly be thrown out.

Re:File a complaint, don't just talk

[DoctorFrog]

No, actually it didn't. The latest upgrade (the one after the one which removes the OtherOS functionality) contains such language, I understand - Ars reported on it. I haven't yet accepted the one which removes OtherOS so I can't speak to that personally, but I'm a person who does read EULAs and I didn't grant Sony any such right.

That said, they probably are legally clear in no longer providing a service, even though their actions amounted to bait and switch - IANAL but they are a big corporation, and nowadays that usually means they can do as they like.

There's enough murk to make it plausible they'd rather settle though; for one thing the fact that they have *now* inserted that language tells me they're not on quite as solid a legal ground as they might like (perhaps, like you, some PHB simply assumed it was there earlier), and ethically they have a lot of people convinced they're being dicks - including people for whom this isn't a personal issue but who may be potential customers now hearing bad things about how Sony treats customers.

Why not just ask for a $50 refund?

[commodore64_love]

That's what an EU citizen did. It came out of amazon's pocket if I recall correctly, and I'm sure they then charged it back to Sony.

Re:Why not just ask for a $50 refund?

[redscare2k4]

Sony officially stated they had not paid a penny of those $50 and that any similar issues are a matter between the final seller and the client and had nothing to do with them.

Re:Why not just ask for a $50 refund?

[Shrike82]

Sony are refusing to reimburse retailers if they give refunds.

Re:Why not just ask for a $50 refund?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure, when`s the last time you asked someone to offer you a refund based on something (ie technology) they don`t understand.

"but your ps3 still works"
"yes but it's loss some functionality that most people don't even know about"
"yes but your ps3 still works and you want me to give you 50$?"

Finally maybe it's because the laws in the EU are different than in the US. Not trying to put down your comment, I just can't see any retailer jumping up and saying "we'll give you a refund, sure!"

Re:Why not just ask for a $50 refund?

[somersault]

I asked, and got told to FO. For the tiny amount of money involved it would waste much more of my time than the value that I'd get back from the refund. I'm finally starting to dislike Sony as much as most other Slashdotters. Previously I'd thought that the gaming division was pretty good even if the rest was run by morons.. but no longer.

Re:Why not just ask for a $50 refund?

[Anonymous Coward]

Because this thing cost a lot more than $50?

Re:Why not just ask for a $50 refund?

[beelsebob]

Because in the US you aren't protected by EU law. EU law gaurentees that you're in line for a partial refund at least if part/all of the functionality of the device is not fit for purpose.

Re:Why not just ask for a $50 refund?

[commodore64_love]

Yes and my dad broke his arm at work. The lawyer official stated they admit no guilt and don't owe him a dime, but will happily pay to fix the arm plus lost wages. Sony's statement is the same deal - legalese - trying to protect their ass(ets).

Re:Why not just ask for a $50 refund?

[91degrees]

"No it doesn't work. It was clearly indicated that it runs Linux. It does not run Linux. Therefore it doesn't work."

That said, I agree with your point. Negotiations with the stupid or stubborn can be tricky. You need to anticipate what they say and contradict them.

Re:Why not just ask for a $50 refund?

[Gr8Apes]

Sony decided that they'd put asshattedry in a whole new category years ago. If it wasn't for Microsoft being there first, they'd be the undisputed champs.

It started in the 80s with the quality of their electronics going downhill while banking on their reputation to keep prices up, and then the "gouge their customer" disease spread like wildfire throughout the rest of their divisions.

Even if Sony comes out with a "good" product, I won't buy it due to their reputation in how they deal with their customers. I have not seen a company with a more feudalistic attitude towards their serfs... err... customers.

Re:Why not just ask for a $50 refund?

[commodore64_love]

Sony was a good company in 1995 when they first entered the gaming arena.
They were still a good company in 2000 as well, although prone to exaggeration ("PS2 can do Toy Story in real time").
But then they devolved. It happens.

- By the way I still haven't seen Final Fantasy 7 ported to the PS3. :-| I know that was just a demo, but it would be awesome to play that game again with FF12-style, fully-realized character graphics.

Re:Why not just ask for a $50 refund?

[fortapocalypse]

I'm pretty sure that Amazon just eats the loss as part of an effort to gain greater customer satisfaction, as I've been in a similar situation prior (except I was on the losing end because I dealt directly with the vendor who would not take the return vs. Amazon whose customers reported they were able to get a refund on return). I wish that more companies would follow Amazon's model in this regard (and many others), but Amazon has the upper hand because they make *so much* that they can afford losses like this.

Re:Why not just ask for a $50 refund?

[JohnFluxx]

Sony have stated they will not give out refunds.

http://www.mcvuk.com/news/38565/Sony-rules-out-OtherOS-refunds

"We do understand the frustration a small number of consumers may feel at SCE's decision to provide an upgrade to the firmware to disable the Linux operating system but we refute any suggestion that this action is in any way a contravention of the terms of Sale of Goods Act,” SCE UK’s David Wilson told ThinkQ.

“The console packaging and the in-box manual for the console do not refer to the use of Linux on the console. Rather, the console packaging states that the product's design and specifications are subject to change without notice and that the system software within the console is subject to a limited licence between SCE and the consumer, and this licence permits SCE to update the system software and services offered from time to time.

“The provision in the Sale of Goods Act which requires an item to be fit for a purpose made known by the consumer to the retailer prior to purchase and confirmed by the retailer applies only to the contract between the retailer and the consumer.

“The decision by Amazon to give a consumer a partial refund is clearly between Amazon and the consumer, but we do not expect the decision to have a legal basis and we have no plans to compensate retailers.”

Re:Why not just ask for a $50 refund?

[Registered Coward v2]

Yes and my dad broke his arm at work. The lawyer official stated they admit no guilt and don't owe him a dime, but will happily pay to fix the arm plus lost wages. Sony's statement is the same deal - legalese - trying to protect their ass(ets).

I agree that's probably pretty standard to avoid opening one up to more legal action; as is requiring neither party to discuss the settlement.

I have an EE degree. What's a good 2nd degree? CMP ENG or Comp Sci? I want to be eligible to apply for more jobs.

I realize I'm responding to a sig but I'd suggest an MBA. Science / Tech undergrad plus MBA is a good combination.

Re:Why not just ask for a $50 refund?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think there was a court decision that what constitutes the purpose of a device is a combination of the fine print, and the advertisement and the non written feature provided as selling points if there is a reasonable expectation that the feature is integral part of the product

Re:Why not just ask for a $50 refund?

[ZekoMal]

This is what frustrates me.

Let's go down anecdote lane, shall we?

Suppose that I sell my neighbor a slip and slide. It's really decked out; it glides faster then any other slip and slide, it has tons of customizable parts, but it's a little pricey. My neighbor is most impressed by the fact that I allow him to change the mechanism that deploys water, so he can have a ridiculously fast and powerful slide.

Well, one day I figure out that someone else I sold one of these slip and slides to was using his modified slip and slide to break windows. I didn't want to be held liable, so I then go to every single person I ever sold one to and install a lock on the water mechanism. But before I do that, I modify how the entire system works. If you tried to change the water mechanism, I installed a fail safe that prevented you from being able to use your slip and slide with anyone besides your family, and cut off your support.

Yes, I know it's not the best comparison in the world, but the basic point is this: If any human being came back to a buyer post-sale and changed the purchased product without consent from the buyer, because someone else did something the seller didn't like, we sure as fuck wouldn't get off free.

If we're gonna treat companies as humans, they can't be allowed special company rights. Plain and simple. Right now, they appear to be blameless, no matter if they rape their customers with hot sauce or purposefully lose billions of dollars.

Re:Why not just ask for a $50 refund?

[icebraining]

That's the retailers' problem, not the consumer. Under EU law, the retailer is responsible for the product.

If they wanted Sony to pay up, maybe they should have better contracts with them.

Re:Why not just ask for a $50 refund?

[ZekoMal]

Sorry for the double reply; I just noticed that I arbitrarily deleted a sentence from my reply. Damn. Anyway, here it is:

I sure wish I could just tell people that I won't fix my mistakes, no matter what they do to try and force me to.

Re:Why not just ask for a $50 refund?

[corbettw]

Something tells me that if 100,000 people get $50 refunds from Amazon due to Sony's actions, and Sony refuses to pay them the $5,000,000 paid out, Amazon might be a little less willing to carry Sony products in the future. Sony really has to decide which hill they want to die on; screwing over retailers is not in their long-term self interest.

Re:Why not just ask for a $50 refund?

[commodore64_love]

They'd probably come back with some comment like, "Well yes it was advertised to run Linux FOR 90 DAYS per the warranty. We're not responsible if it stops working after the warranty period," and then have security escort you to the door.

I guess the lawsuit really is necessary.

Re:Why not just ask for a $50 refund?

[TheRaven64]

It's not that Amazon makes so much, it's that they make a huge amount from repeat custom. If Amazon irritates you enough that you don't ever buy from them again, then that's a huge chunk of potential earnings that they've just thrown away. Paying $50 to keep you happy is worthwhile if it earns them $100 of profits from you over the next few years.

This is actually true for a lot of businesses, but few seem to realise it. And, of course, a lot of customers help to reinforce this by returning to places that have given them bad service.

Re:Why not just ask for a $50 refund?

[MikeBabcock]

That's actually why many companies specifically state not to return products to the retailer but to call the manufacturer instead. They don't want the retail outlets seeing the returns.

In this case however, I still think Sony has a point, and I always have. While I think the OtherOS feature was a nice feature, I don't recall it ever having been in their sales and promotion literature. Sure it was in the technical specs, but you can hardly use those to get a refund when your car comes with Halogen instead of Xenon lightbulbs either.

Re:Why not just ask for a $50 refund?

[91degrees]

"No it wasn't. There was no such limitation".
"blah blah blah"
"No, absolute contradiction"

Doesn't work if they have a copy of the same playbook as you but repeated contradiction does have better odds of success as trying to be reasonable.

Re:Why not just ask for a $50 refund?

[Captain Centropyge]

It's also been found that in many cases these "we may change this product anytime we want to, without your permission/notification" issues are not legal, despite what the packaging, EULA, etc. say. If this goes through, I'm totally in on this class-action suit, despite the fact that I don't use Other OS very often.

Re:Why not just ask for a $50 refund?

[JavaBear]

Previously I'd thought that the gaming division was pretty good even if the rest was run by morons.. but no longer.

Same here, though there are a few divisions of Sony that haven't had their heads permanently affixed to their asses: Cameras, e-books and Sony Creative Software.
Lets see how long the insanity that have plagued Sony, ever since they became a music and movie studio, will take to spread to these last few divisions.

Re:Why not just ask for a $50 refund?

[ElusiveJoe]

We do understand the frustration a small number of consumers may feel at

What is this?! Why did Sony hire a troll to talk to customers? Dilbert comics is humour, not an instruction how to run a company.

Re:Why not just ask for a $50 refund?

[JavaBear]

I used Toyota as a comparison.
To fix the speeder problem in their cars, they would force you to accept modification that would limit the car to 30 km/h, and until you accepted that you would only be allowed to drive on closed circuits.
Of course some will figure out how to get back on the road again, at which point Toyota would just stop all cars trying to do so via a remote control.

Re:Why not just ask for a $50 refund?

[MBGMorden]

Sure it was in the technical specs, but you can hardly use those to get a refund when your car comes with Halogen instead of Xenon lightbulbs either.

Most people wouldn't likely bother, but I'd wager that they could get a partial refund (or at least a replacement to the correct type) if they pushed it. False advertisement doesn't just apply to the things that the marketing department deems to call an ad. Anything published publicly is considered as advertised, including the technical specs.

Re:Why not just ask for a $50 refund?

[Carewolf]

The EU minimum warranty is 24 months.

Re:Why not just ask for a $50 refund?

[nschubach]

The console packaging and the in-box manual for the console do not refer to the use of Linux on the console.

Actually, it does tell you how to install the OtherOS and I believe it lists Linux as an option. I will have to dig out my user manual when I get home, but I'm pretty sure that statement is wrong.

Re:Why not just ask for a $50 refund?

[91degrees]

In the EU, the contract is with the retailer. If the product is faulty it's then up to the retailer and manufacturer to sort it out.

The customer has the right to ask the manufacturer to fix it of course, and the retailer may suggest that they do (they often will if something is covered by the warranty), but if the customer insists then it's up to the retailer to sort things out.

Re:Why not just ask for a $50 refund?

[CoolHnd30]

the console packaging states that the product's design and specifications are subject to change without notice and that the system software within the console is subject to a limited licence between SCE and the consumer, and this licence permits SCE to update the system software and services offered from time to time.

It seems like they should be able to update and/or change the "other os" feature, but nowhere here does it state they can remove it...

Re:Why not just ask for a $50 refund?

[idontgno]

Yes, I know it's not the best comparison in the world

Dang skippin' it's not the best comparison; it's neither a car analogy nor a pizza analogy.

If any human being came back to a buyer post-sale and changed the purchased product without consent from the buyer,

Oh, you see, you bought the hardware, but you just LICENSED the software. SCE isn't modifying the hardware, just the software which they still own and you use only at their sufferance. First sale ("you bought it, you own it") doesn't apply.

At least, that's the stand SCE and most other system providers take. If you buy hardware, that's yours. But you didn't buy the copyrighted software embedded in the device. You licensed it. (Hence, "End User License Agreement".) They (the copyright holder, the only true owner of the software) can change that software any time they please, because they own it. If the EULA includes language that says they can change the capabilities of the software at any time without notice or recourse, copyright doesn't forbid it. And the only recourse you would have is something much like the lawsuits you see here: "The hardware you sold me depends on a certain capability set provided by the software. You have a legal obligation to provide basic capabilities in order to render the hardware fit for the purposes it was sold for."

And because "legal obligation" and "basic capabilities" are debatable, that's why it pretty much has to be a lawsuit. For instance, is "Other OS" a "basic capability"? Does its removal render the hardware unfit for its purposes? SCE has already stated they don't think so. The plaintiffs appear to disagree. We shall see how it goes.

No, IANAL. But this is how it smells to me.

Re:Why not just ask for a $50 refund?

[Homr Zodyssey]

See, it IS like a car....

Re:Why not just ask for a $50 refund?

[Voyager529]

There are reasons for that though...

-I can't speak for the origins of their e-book division, but my guess is that they've been kept more-or-less in check by the stiff competition from Amazon, Barnes & Noble, and now Apple, all four of whom are targeting a very small market (the iPad is a bit wider market, but the e-reader function is what I'm addressing here). I remember asking someone at an e-reader station why I'd want one over a Kindle, and I think the answer she gave me was that the plastic device was $20 and that I could take it home today...so with a sales pitch THAT shaky, they really can't afford to do anything to piss people off. Additionally, AFAIK, there isn't nearly the same exclusivity on e-Books as there is in video games. Even if there's an official contract saying that $EXCLUSIVE_BOOK will only be available on $READER, if that contract is voided, it's a whole lot more trivial to port a book from one reader to the other than it is to pick up $EXCLUSIVE_GAME and port it to the xbox.

-Their still camera division is what's left of Konica-Minolta, so if there's any shred of the original Minolta crew still there, that's what you're seeing the effects of. I don't know whether their pro-grade video cameras started out as a separate company that was later bought by Sony, but even if they weren't, when you're in the business of selling $13,000 cameras to pro videographers who can just as easily get a Canon or JVC model, you're not going to take too many chances. I'm sure that the $30,000-$75,000+ cameras sold to movie studios and TV stations aren't going to be messed with either, because if Sony tried pulling that crap on them, you'd see Sony vs. ABC, aka Media-With-Deep-Pockets-and-A-Broadcast-Medium vs. Media-With-Deep-Pockets-and-A-Broadcast-Medium. Outside of Slashdot you won't see more than 90 seconds of broadcast about this whole schtick, but if ABC were leading the charge against Sony, you'd know it, as would your aunt Gertrude. Sony's not going to touch them, either.

-Sony Creative Software had a former life as Sonic Foundry. Again, a company with half a clue and some decent software that hasn't foundationally changed since then. Additionally, Their flagship products (ACID, Sound Forge, Vegas) are Windows only, while the media production demographic typically leans toward OSX, so their running platform already limits their customer base. Bonus points for the DRM getting progressively more intrusive on those apps for a while now, so this division isn't all that immune from the OmGwTfBbQ pIrAtEs!!!111 battle cry from the higher-ups either.

Compare all three of these divisions (separate niche products targeting a specialized discerning set of customers who know what to look for) with the PS3 (the general public who overall has more interest in playing exclusive video games and watching blu-ray discs and is likely unaware of Linux or that it can be installed on their PS3), and it makes sense why those divisions are shooting slightly straighter than the gaming divisions.

Re:Why not just ask for a $50 refund?

[idontgno]

[citation required]

EULAs are not uniformly invalid. In certain jurisdictions, clickwrap (click "agree" and damn your soul for all eternity) licenses are valid. Certain jurisdictions also buy into the "licensed, not sold" line of thought that makes this contravention of First Sale possible.

A few minutes of Googling fails to turn up any legal matter (opinions or court decisions) one way or the other on the enforceability of "subject to change at any time" terms we're discussing here. So I suspect it's uncharted territory until a lawsuit brings it into scrutiny. Maybe this lawsuit.

Re:Why not just ask for a $50 refund?

[Captain Centropyge]

I'd be fine with that. It would be nice to have a concrete answer for stuff like this. I can understand that not all of these EULAs would be invalid (or partially invalid). But when they're really long, technically-advanced garble that most people won't understand, I wouldn't be surprised if they threw them out entirely because customers wouldn't be expected to understand it.

Re:Why not just ask for a $50 refund?

[HiThere]

And I have stated I'll never buy Sony again.

Admittedly, it was over a different issue, but this is another case reaffirming that as a wise decision. (My original reason was the CDs they sold containing a rootkit that they paid to have created. I.e., intentional, not an accident.)

Re:Why not just ask for a $50 refund?

[JavaBear]

I can only agree. And thanks for taking the time to write up a long reply :)

And your observation that as long as Sony have stiff competition, they are the last to piss on their customers. Give them a fair sized marked share and lock-in, and we get what we see here.

Re:Why not just ask for a $50 refund?

[Anonymous Coward]

And, of course, a lot of customers help to reinforce this by returning to places that have given them bad service

I run an online business selling various media products and we have discovered a very interesting and seemingly counter-intuitive fact here vis a vis customer relations. There seems to be an asymptote of treating people well that when you go beyond that point, they actually start resenting you. We used to ship 3-4 days a week and respond to email within 24 to 36 hours and didn't even bother most times to send tracking numbers on most orders. Then, I got the bright idea to ship 6 days weekly, respond to inquiries within 2 hours and always send tracking numbers. Guess what? Customer satisfaction went down. Unbelievably, it did. And not just for a week or two. We did this for 6 months and had to go back to the old way of doing things as our aggregate reviews went more and more sour.

I don't have a very good explanation for this. Maybe human nature requires things to be okay but not perfect. Maybe people demand a certain amount of mystery in their lives. Maybe people just don't respect others that are too nice to them. Maybe it makes them suspicious. At any rate, our customer service at this point is good, not stellar. But people seem to like it so there you have it.

Re:Why not just ask for a $50 refund?

[commodore64_love]

>>>The EU minimum warranty is 24 month

Maybe it's time I leave the US and move to the EU. Is it true they give out free apartments and guaranteed jobs? ;-)

Re:Why not just ask for a $50 refund?

[networkBoy]

I used to be a sony whore, but some years ago swore them off (IIRC the final straw was the rootkit, but I already didn't like them much by then).
Eventually the time came that I wanted to buy a new camcorder. One of my requirements is MiniDV tape (multiple reasons, one of which is archival storage of the source tape after shooting). Sadly Sony was the *only* brand that met my requirements and my price range...
I felt soooo dirty buying that thing :(

Re:Why not just ask for a $50 refund?

[s73v3r]

I remember hearing about the weird shuffling about retailers and publishers do with video games, how, instead of a retailer getting a refund for returned or unsold stock, they simply get a "credit" toward the publisher's next game. I wouldn't be surprised if a similar tactic was used on shipments of game consoles.

Re:Why not just ask for a $50 refund?

[s73v3r]

- By the way I still haven't seen Final Fantasy 7 ported to the PS3. :-| I know that was just a demo, but it would be awesome to play that game again with FF12-style, fully-realized character graphics.

It would, but I don't know if I'd trust them to not cock it up some more. If it was just an engine upgrade (and the necessary tweaks to make that work) then maybe I could be on board. But, I liked the game back then, and I still have somewhat fond memories of it. Seeing a remake might not be the best thing. At best, it'd be like the remakes of FF1 and 2 ported to the PS1, GBA and iPhone, where they added some stuff, changed the art style and music, but it was still good. At worst, it might be like taking the Super Mario Bros. Super Show, a show I adored as a child, and trying to watch it today.

Re:Why not just ask for a $50 refund?

[HTH NE1]

Or a Federation of Planets suddenly decreeing that, due to evidence of environmental damage to subspace, all Federation vessels are to travel no faster than warp factor 5 except in cases of extreme emergency until such time as they are retrofitted with variable geometry nacelles?

Actually, no. That sounds like a perfectly reasonable recall order. Make it like the forced recall and crushing of the leased-not-sold General Motors EV1 electric cars, which is still controversial today.

Re:Why not just ask for a $50 refund?

[Anonymous Coward]

I realize I'm responding to a sig but I'd suggest an MBA. Science / Tech undergrad plus MBA is a good combination.

He can sell his soul too.

Re:Why not just ask for a $50 refund?

[MikeBabcock]

I was citing something different than I think you're replying to. But your point is valid.

For example, my APC UPS comes with a note saying that if I have problems, please contact APC directly instead of returning it to the retailer.

I figure that (A) they figure they can probably fix my problem faster, and (B) they don't want retailers getting shell-shock from returned units when APC can handle it directly.

Re:Why not just ask for a $50 refund?

[AK Marc]

Sony didn't say they didn't have to pay, but that they didn't pay. There's a distinction you are missing.

Re:Why not just ask for a $50 refund?

[Khyber]

"I don't recall it ever having been in their sales and promotion literature"

IT WAS ALL OVER THEIR WEBSITE WHEN THE THING WAS FIRST RELEASED.

Check out archive.org

And if it's included in the technical specs, that's advertising as well.

Re:Why not just ask for a $50 refund?

[Carewolf]

Maybe it's time I leave the US and move to the EU. Is it true they give out free apartments and guaranteed jobs? ;-)

Free apartments yes, jobs, no.. To get free stuff you need to be poor, and while being poor is better than in the US, it still sucks.

Re:Why not just ask for a $50 refund?

[TheRaven64]

Fascinating. How were you measuring customer satisfaction? Did you try altering these factors independently? I'd imagine sending tracking numbers might lower customer satisfaction because you spend more time tracking a delivery and subjectively waiting than if you just place the order and it eventually arrives a couple of days later. I can't imagine that shipping earlier or answering emails promptly would decrease customer satisfaction though.

Re:Why not just ask for a $50 refund?

[MikeBabcock]

Back in the day, a DLink 530TX tech specs said it used an Realtek chipset. Another one I got says it used a completely different chipset. DLink changed chipsets (and related functionality) as often as I change socks it seems.

Did the product warrant a class-action suit because I expected a Realtek chipset when I bought the next card? No. Because the functionality they actually claimed it would have was all there in all the chipset versions.

Re:Why not just ask for a $50 refund?

[Khyber]

I have several DLink routers, every manual listed the change in specs. They didn't falsely advertise anything.

Sony advertised OtherOS heavily (in order to evade EU VAT primarily.)

Can't lose!

[indre1]

The PS3 owner can't lose this kind of suit or something is REALLY wrong.

Re:Can't lose!

[Anonymous Coward]

My bet is he will lose.
Sony will find some loophole, the judge will allow it because the removal of this function affects a very small part of the userbase.

Re:Can't lose!

[Shrike82]

My bet is he will lose. Sony will find some loophole, the judge will allow it because the removal of this function affects a very small part of the userbase.

Car analogy time. My car comes with a spare tyre in the boot (trunk for you Yanks). Now most people will never have to use this. Most people are lucky enough to buy, use and then sell a car without ever having a flat or blowout. Now, if the car manufacturer decides during a scheduled service that they're going to remove the tyre from my boot (and the boots of everyone else that comes in for a service) then it will only affect a small part of their userbase, but it doesn't matter. The car was sold and marketed as having a spare tyre, and they can't just take that away.

Re:Can't lose!

[Vanderhoth]

It's also possible Sony will make every attempt to settle this out of court to prevent the court from definitively ruling on what a company may and may not put in a ToS/EULA. If a court ruled that when you buy hardware that REQUIRES software to run then you are buying the software as well there are going to be a lot of angry companies (E.G. Microsoft, Apple, Nintendo, etc...) out there whom will lose their easy way to shaft their customers.

Re:Can't lose!

[Vokbain]

When have Microsoft, Apple or Nintendo ever shafted their customers by listing a feature on the box that didn't exist in the actual product?

Re:Can't lose!

[nitio]

Unless it's like Brazil where the law states you have to have a spare tire at all times.

And God forbid you try driving around without one - it comes with a nice ticket for you to pay.

Re:Can't lose!

[Anonymous Coward]

It's tire. TIRE. :)

Re:Can't lose!

[teslar]

Car analogy failure. It is illegal to drive a car without a spare tire, so the removal would actually affect every single person and not just a "small part of the userbase".

Re:Can't lose!

[beelsebob]

Not in English it's not.

Re:Can't lose!

[Shrike82]

Well hello there Mr. Obnoxious American. Now, as you may or (more likely) may not be aware, the English language was invented right here in little old Britain. We spell it tyre. You're entitled to mispell it as tire if you like, but every time you do we Brits have a quiet chuckle to ourselves, roll our eyes at our backwards cousins across the Pond and carry on in our usual dignified manner.

Re:Can't lose!

[TheKidWho]

He said boot, he's obviously not American.

People like you give us Americans a bad name.

Re:Can't lose!

[Anonymous Coward]

Not according to the OED: http://dictionary.oed.com/cgi/entry/50261136?query_type=word&queryword=tyre&first=1&max_to_show=10&sort_type=alpha&result_place=7&search_id=kEJT-MMENth-4778&hilite=50261136

Re:Can't lose!

[Shrike82]

World knowledge failure. It's not a legal requirement to carry one in Britain. So my analogy holds with certain pre-requisites. Also, stop being pedantic and accept that it's just an analogy. If it was completely congruous to the situation in question it woudn't be an analogy. Same deal with a shortcut, if it was easy it's just be the way. Bonus points to me for the Road trip reference.

Re:Can't lose!

[Vanderhoth]

I'm not saying they have done it, but the do have the potential too.

Maybe those three companies haven't. There was that fiasco with the George Orwell books being automatically removed from kindles after the books were purchased. I know Amazon "had" to do it because of some licensing thing and they did eventually give refunds, but what should have happened is they should have stopped selling the books and anyone who had already bought it should have been able to keep it. (http://arstechnica.com/web/news/2009/10/amazon-stipulates-terms-of-book-deletion-via-1984-settlement.ars). here's another example (http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/news/2006/11/8255.ars) where FM recording feature was removed from Creative Zen via firmware. The customers threatened a lawsuit and the company re-instated the feature.

Re:Can't lose!

[ranulf]

No, tire is what happens when Brits are repeated subjected to Americans trying to correct British spelling into the peculiar bastardized American dialect. The poster even made it clear he was British, so there's no point criticising his correct spelling. And yes, before you get uppity, "criticising" can be spelt with an s. And yes, spelt is correct too.

Re:Can't lose!

[Anonymous Coward]

Also, that is theft and covered under existing criminal laws. I don't know how that would play out here, but I'd personally see criminal charges brought against them before some civil suit (but obviously also a civil suit after the criminal prosecution).

Re:Can't lose!

[Teancum]

My bet is he will lose.
Sony will find some loophole, the judge will allow it because the removal of this function affects a very small part of the userbase.

Car analogy time. My car comes with a spare tyre in the boot (trunk for you Yanks).

One thing that I have hated about automotive manufacturers is that they are removing the spare tire from their vehicles... in a mis-guided attempt to improve fuel economy (it saves about .1 miles per gallon perhaps due to reduced weight) and to increase trunk space. Oh, they have something in there that can be used in "emergencies", but it isn't a spare tire any more. Commonly referred to as a "doughnut" in the USA, it is the emergency tire that is often smaller and certainly less reliable than standard tires and often rated at only holding out for about 30-40 miles while your car is lop-sided and wiping out any sort of alignment that your car may have when the flat happened in the first place, if that is the only damage it may cause to your vehicle if it is put into actual usage. It also isn't rated for the same speeds as normal traffic, so you may have to leave limited access highways (aka an "interstate highway" or something like the Autobahn) if it is installed as well.

While I like the analogy, this is one that shows Sony can get away with this sort of action explicitly because automobile manufacturers have been getting away with a similar loss of functionality for some time. Other similar issues involve how these same car companies are weakening bumper standards to the point that a toddler kicking the front of the car leaves a nasty dent. Those used to be rated for a 5 mile per hour collision without damage beyond scratching some chrome. They don't even have chrome on the bumpers any more.

Re:Can't lose!

[Amouth]

i can't seem to find any evidence right now - but i seem to remember MS saying Vista was fast or something along that

Re:Can't lose!

[earthloop]

It goes further than that. It's like saying:

"If you choose to keep the spare tyre, we will close the roads that you previously drove your car on."

Re:Can't lose!

[Anonymous Coward]

Bah, I tyre of your attempt at humor (sp?)

Re:Can't lose!

[Anonymous Coward]

Woosh!

Re:Can't lose!

[NekSnappa]

But "repeated subjected" is not. ;-)

Re:Can't lose!

[Anonymous Coward]

Well hello there Mr. Pretentious Brit. Now, as you may or (more likely) may not be aware, the English language is now a global language and not confined to little old Britain. We spell it tire. You're entitled to mispell it as tyre if you like, but every time you do we Americans have a quiet chuckle to ourselves, roll our eyes at our self-absorbed cousins across the Pond and carry on in our usual independent manner. And people wonder where America learned its self-important imperialistic ways.

Re:Can't lose!

[Anonymous Coward]

Lots of Americans use boot instead of trunk.

Re:Can't lose!

[Anonymous Coward]

automobile manufacturers have been getting away with a similar loss of functionality for some time.

That is a very dubious usage of "getting away with". At least car manufacturers are not so stupid as to try to sell a car with a full spare tire and then try to replace it with something lesser for that same already-bought car, AND as a prerequisite for the air conditioning and headlights to continue working.

If instead of touting the PS3 as a supercomputer with an advertised "Install Other OS" option, they said "Unsupported; Do Not Use", it would be a different argument. And no-one is suing them over Slim PS3s not having an Install Other OS option. If it was never there, or was never an official feature, this would not be an argument. But it WAS there and it WAS officially supported. And then it wasn't. Which is wrong; but more importantly, illegal.

Re:Can't lose!

[Anonymous Coward]

Bah, Spell it however you want, I don't really care too much. It's when you start talking gibberish, that's when I have to step back and say "Hey, guy. That's not english!"

A-lu-min-i-um? What the hell man. A-lum-i-num. Another thing: Ad-ver-tiz-ment vs AdverTISEment. And don't even get me started on Welsh. I don't consider that remotely close to understandable.

Re:Can't lose!

[KlomDark]

You're acting like a Tyre-ant.

Re:Can't lose!

[icebraining]

While I like the analogy, this is one that shows Sony can get away with this sort of action explicitly because automobile manufacturers have been getting away with a similar loss of functionality for some time.

No, they haven't, because that loss doesn't happen to a car you already bought! The fact that they have been selling inferior cars than they used to is not the same.

The new PS3 Slim never came with the Other OS, while the old one did, but that's not loss of functionality, because when you buy it you already know it doesn't come with it.

Re:Can't lose!

[tophermeyer]

Well hello there Mr. Obnoxious American. Now, as you may or (more likely) may not be aware, the English language was invented right here in little old Britain. We spell it tyre. You're entitled to mispell it as tire if you like, but every time you do we Brits have a quiet chuckle to ourselves, roll our eyes at our backwards cousins across the Pond and carry on in our usual dignified manner.

I like to think of myself as a typical obnoxious American, and I found your post quiet amusing. Really put some color into my day.

Re:Can't lose!

[Anonymous Coward]

Except people don't buy a car just because it comes with a spare tire.

It would be more like taking your car in for routine maintenance (firmware upgrade) and it coming back without cruise control or the A/C removed.

Re:Can't lose!

[Anonymous Coward]

Definately not American. He also said "the boot", which would make him British. However, if he said "a boot", he would more than likely be Canadian.

Re:Can't lose!

[MikeBabcock]

lol ... PS for all those who think Sony's being a jerk, read your Office or Windows EULA some time.

Just ... for entertainment value.

Re:Can't lose!

[TheRaven64]

With regard to Apple, updating to OS 10.5 upgraded to QuickTime 7. If you had already bought QuickTime Pro 6 from Apple, then you lost all of the features that this gave you (editing, exporting, full screen playback). There was no option to install OS X 10.5 and retain QuickTime 6. Future products, including ones from Apple, required OS X 10.5, so you had the choice of either upgrading and losing functionality, or not upgrading and losing out on future features - exactly the same choice Sony seems to be forcing.

Re:Can't lose!

[Anonymous Coward]

So, you need TWO spares? One to use when needed and one so you would not break the law when its in use...?

Re:Can't lose!

[Anonymous Coward]

Misspell, old chap.

Re:Can't lose!

[Anonymous Coward]

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

Re:Can't lose!

[Anonymous Coward]

This analogy makes no sense. That spare "tyre" is something useful for when one of your "tyres" goes bad. That spare is an emergency bit you use so you can go have your car serviced and repaired. You can't use the Other OS function in the same fashion as you can use that spare "tyre". It's an entirely optionally used feature and does nothing to affect the main functionality of the PS3. A spare "tyre" is a necessity for emergency reasons.

So unless you can say that the Other OS feature is necessary for the same reasons, this analogy ran flat.

Re:Can't lose!

[subgame]

Car analogy time. My car comes with part-time 4x4. Now most people will never have to use this. Most people are lucky enough to buy, use and then sell a car without ever having engaged the 4x4 feature. Now, if the car manufacturer decides during a scheduled service that they're going to remove the feature(and the feature of everyone else that comes in for a service) then it will only affect a small part of their userbase, but it doesn't matter. The car was sold and marketed as having part-time 4x4, and they can't just take that away.

Re:Can't lose!

[Anonymous Coward]

erm, Mr. little obnoxious brit.... Tire was the original spelling. Check the wiki entries (and sources if you're anal about that, which I suspect).

The Oxford English Dictionary suggests that the word derives from "attire", while other sources suggest a connection with the verb "to tie". From the 15th to the 17th centuries the spellings tire and tyre were used without distinction; but by 1700 tyre had become obsolete and tire remained as the settled spelling. In the UK, the spelling tyre was revived in the 19th century for pneumatic tires, though many continued to use tire for the iron variety. The Times newspaper in Britain was still using tire as late as 1905. The 1911 edition of the Encyclopædia Britannica states that "[t]he spelling 'tyre' is not now accepted by the best English authorities, and is unrecognized in the US", while Fowler's Modern English Usage of 1926 says that "there is nothing to be said for 'tyre', which is etymologically wrong, as well as needlessly divergent from our own [sc. British] older & the present American usage".

You can't blame the Americans for sticking with the language, while you Brits divert. For most of the word diversions the "Yanks" use the proper original spelling.
As Sheldon would say: "That is what is referred to as a 'burn on you'"

Re:Can't lose!

[AllyGreen]

If you have breakdown cover, its a requirement of most policies to carry a spare tyre.

Re:Can't lose!

[Anonymous Coward]

"Most of us learns the Queens english, or at least tries to..." Is that really the queens english? Because if it is it made me lolz.

Re:Can't lose!

[JavaBear]

Don't worry, the rest of us have a good giggle when you pronounce Aluminium as Aluminum.

Re:Can't lose!

[carp3_noct3m]

The Oxford English Dictionary suggests that the word derives from "attire",[1] while other sources suggest a connection with the verb "to tie".[2] From the 15th to the 17th centuries the spellings tire and tyre were used without distinction;[1] but by 1700 tyre had become obsolete and tire remained as the settled spelling.[1] In the UK, the spelling tyre was revived in the 19th century for pneumatic tires, though many continued to use tire for the iron variety. The Times newspaper in Britain was still using tire as late as 1905.[3] The 1911 edition of the Encyclopædia Britannica states that "[t]he spelling 'tyre' is not now accepted by the best English authorities, and is unrecognized in the US",[2], while Fowler's Modern English Usage of 1926 says that "there is nothing to be said for 'tyre', which is etymologically wrong, as well as needlessly divergent from our own [sc. British] older & the present American usage".[1]

Re:Can't lose!

[JavaBear]

Sorry Ranulf, but he definitely got you on that one.

Re:Can't lose!

[Teancum]

So this is more like an automobile that has a recall and the manufacturer (via the dealer) removes the spare and replaces it with a doughnut when they do the other repairs (aka fixing the gas/brake pedals or whatever is in the recall). I'd still like to see somebody successfully sue the manufacturer if that happens. Arguably this might even be considered something critical by some convoluted environmental standards. I've seen similar kinds of "upgrades" in other products.

I'm not saying I agree with Sony here, but I am saying that the analogy to an automotive manufacturer can find similar kinds of tinkering with your car and it is more of a source of precedence than as an example for why Sony shouldn't be doing this. It is making the case for Sony, not the other way around.

Re:Can't lose!

[Vanderhoth]

I have the 60 GB model from Jan of 2008 and it is in my manual. This was a very widely publicized feature and it was the deal breaker for me. I was going to buy a Wii, but paid the extra $300 for the PS3 because of Linux. If you read the Lawsuit PDF it gives very concrete examples of how and when Sony and it's executives promoted about this feature. Balls in your court dumb-ass

Re:Can't lose!

[Anonymous Coward]

Car analogy failure.
It is illegal to drive a car without a spare tire, so the removal would actually affect every single person and not just a "small part of the userbase".

Maybe where you live, but not everywhere.

I gotta think this is the case in most of the USA as there are many vehicles delivered from the manufacturer w/ run flats in lieu of a spare tire of any sort.

Re:Can't lose!

[Inda]

COLOUR! *eyes-roll-back...*

Re:Can't lose!

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean the backward cousins across the Pond that gave you Brits quite the spanking years ago? That was quite obnoxious wasn't it?

Re:Can't lose!

[lurcher]

Unless, as in the case of my car, its fitted with run flat tyres and the car does not have space in the boot for a spare.

Re:Can't lose!

[Vectormatic]

bah, try buying a european small hatchback

Prepare to not find a 'doughnut', but a small foam-based tyre repair-kit when you have a flat.. Here on most new cars you have to pay extra to get the 50 MPH emergency spare. I once had to drive about 100 miles with one of those on my car, it is NOT fun to be overtaken by a frickin truck on the highway (were i usually drive ~75)

Re:Can't lose!

[tatheg]

Sorry old chap but after you beat you in 2 wars we established our right to spell it any way we choose. Now toddle off back to your tea old boy.

Re:Can't lose!

[Richy_T]

I see what you did there. I admire your sense of humour.

Re:Can't lose!

[stillnotelf]

Most of us learns the Queens english,

Some of us apparently don't learn it very well...

Re:Can't lose!

[Anonymous Coward]

"English" is an adjective, not a noun.

Re:Can't lose!

[nschubach]

I use "boot" to describe that part that covers my convertible top, but I've never heard anyone describe the compartment on the back of their car as a boot.

Re:Can't lose!

[nschubach]

I bought my last two cars (2004/2008) without a spare tire. They do include a "fix a flat" set with a can of sealant and some small tools.

Re:Can't lose!

[Lord Kano]

On the subject of British English...
"Heavens, you don't so much speak the language as chew on it and spit it out." -Stewie Griffin

LK

Re:Can't lose!

[91degrees]

LOL!

But I think the point is that some countries spell certain words one way, and others spell them another, and neither is right or wrong.

Hope the self important imperialism is working out for you. Have to say it does give us a sense of parental pride.

Re:Can't lose!

[Anonymous Coward]

And then again, some of us manages to be perfect assholes by nature, no education needed, apparently.

Re:Can't lose!

[Homr Zodyssey]

Hello there, you silly English ka-niggot.

tire
late 15c., "iron rim of a carriage wheel," probably from tire "equipment, dress, covering" (c.1300), an aphetic form of attire. The notion is of the tire as the dressing of the wheel. The original spelling was tyre, which had shifted to tire in 17c.-18c., but since early 19c. tyre has been revived in Great Britain and become standard there. Rubber ones, for bicycles (later automobiles) are from 1870s.
Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2010 Douglas Harper

So, in 17c-18c, when the Brits were populating America, the spelling was "Tire". We can't help it if you people decided to change your minds. We didn't.

Re:Can't lose!

[Anonymous Coward]

You did? When was that? Oh, you mean the independance thing that you Americans seem to think of as being a hugely important affair, and really don't understand that it's not that important over here - yes, we ceded the colonies to you, because we had more important matters closer to home, and couldn't be arsed fighting France halway around the world. What? France? Yes, France, the country that actually won your war of independance for you. Oh, sorry, you were under the impression that the Americans beat us, no, that wasn't what actually happened.

Re:Can't lose!

[Anonymous Coward]

or gave you a rootkit?

I had almost forgotten about Sony until this came, they should've been in the Golden Poo finals...

Has the PS3 even hit a critical install base level yet? Last time I bothered to look at #s the PS2 was still selling fairly well.

Spare tire: Every car that I've EVER owned I've had to use the spare tire at least once.

Re:Can't lose!

[calmofthestorm]

If you bought the PS3 with the primary intent of doing scientific computing (don't laugh, it's actually a thing), it's not an issue since you will just never upgrade the firmware and chug along happily.

If you bought the PS3 for games, then you won't care about the other OS.

Really this only hurts the tinkerer.

Re:Can't lose!

[calmofthestorm]

It's written on the box in disappearing ink activated by the purchase so that by the time you get it home it's quietly faded. MS doesn't take chances.

Re:Can't lose!

[FooAtWFU]

I have spelt in my breakfast pastry, you international clod!!

Re:Can't lose!

[CAFED00D]

Spell it however you want, "tyre" or "tire", but in the Southern US, we pronounce it "taaaaaar". Or at least all the weirdos around me do.

Re:Can't lose!

[DinDaddy]

Donut for a tire? Mmmmm. Where is this dealer again?

Re:Can't lose!

[CaptainOblivion]

Yes, I sure am glad that the English language is a static thing, exactly identical in usage to when it was first spoken!

Re:Can't lose!

[Anonymous Coward]

Well hello there Mr. Obnoxious American. Now, as you may or (more likely) may not be aware, the English language was invented right here in little old Britain. We spell it colour. You're entitled to misspell it as color if you like, but every time you do we Brits have a quiet chuckle to ourselves, roll our eyes at our backwards cousins across the Pond and carry on in our usual dignified manner.

Re:Can't lose!

[Courageous]

Now, as you may or (more likely) may not be aware, the English language was invented right here in little old Britain.

Well. As the case may be.

However, I would like to point out that while we may also be a former colony of yours, Tony Blair made it quite clear to the rest of the world that your a current colony of ours.

"Oh, snap".

Re:Can't lose!

[jaavaaguru]

BMW Z4? I've had other cars with no space for a spare that didn't have run flats. Contrary to popular belief, this is perfectly legal. I'm sure not all countries (and all states) have the same regulations here though.

Re:Can't lose!

[TheKidWho]

No, Tire is what happens when the Brits and the Americans both spell a word the same, and the Brits for the sake of being different decide to revive an outdated form of spelling.

Re:Can't lose!

[MostAwesomeDude]

Actually, "criticizing" is the original spelling. It may be spelled with "s" over on the other side of the pond, but in this particular case, it is the Brits who have experienced a corruption in the language.

Just pointing out that languages change over time. No need to get all knotted up over the natural evolution of dialects.

Re:Can't lose!

[mooingyak]

It's a sinister campaign. Since we heavily outnumber you, we just need to convert a critical mass to our heathenistic ways and then the rest of you will die out over time. Bwa. Ha. Ha.

Re:Can't lose!

[Anonymous Coward]

it may have been invented over in britain but now the grammer and all the major standard for spelling and just about everything related to the english language is regulated over here. that is why it is now referred to as american standard english. also just so you know that isn't a pond it's an ocean get with the times your empire ended long ago.

Re:Can't lose!

[miggyb]

No, the bad tire becomes the spare when it is replaced.

Re:Can't lose!

[517714]

We (the US) were part of Britain; we fought a war starting in 1776; we won; we took the language as spoils of war. It's ours now.

Re:Can't lose!

[Bat Country]

Yes, that would most certainly be bad for your health if you were learning English in a public school in Queens. Well spotted.

Re:Can't lose!

[thePowerOfGrayskull]

Car analogy failure. It is illegal to drive a car without a spare tire, so the removal would actually affect every single person and not just a "small part of the userbase".

The problem with car analogies is that inevitably, someone tries to take it far beyond its intended conclusion -- either in an attempt to show how apt it is, or an attempt to show how inappropriate it is.

Re:Can't lose!

[Anonymous Coward]

Nobody likes you.

Re:Can't lose!

[enjerth]

Hello there, you silly English ka-niggot.

That's k + nig + h + t.

Re:Can't lose!

[Anonymous Coward]

Surely you meant that it put some colour into your day.

Re:Can't lose!

[Anonymous Coward]

Well hello there, Mr. Briton! I'm a different AC, but I nevertheless would like to chime in, since the spelling of the word "t[iy]re" is a rather more complicated matter than "stupid yanks can't spell". I'm not an expert either, though, so I'll just link to Wikipedia.

Re:Can't lose!

[Von Helmet]

What if when you bought the car you agreed to a contract that granted Sony the right to remove any part of the car at any time?

The real question in all of this is whether the EULA is binding.

Re:Can't lose!

[shutdown -p now]

Oblig. Family Guy

Re:Can't lose!

[Imrik]

Actually Stewie was referring to her Cockney accent.

Re:Can't lose!

[Anonymous Coward]

Why hello there Mr. Obnoxious Britianian (?)

As you may or more likely may not be aware, languages aren't "invented" and to say that they are displays an ignorance of epic proportions.

Spelling variations across dialects within a language are a common occurance. In fact, in "little old Britain" where language was "invented" there were a massive number of typological differences that weren't ironed out until after the invention (and I am using the word correctly here, unlike you) of the printing press.

So you can shove your smug self satisfaction right up your ass and bring it back out when you actually know something about the history of the language that you so pompously claim your country "invented."

Re:Can't lose!

[Nick Ives]

The same is true here in the UK. A better car analogy would be removal of an optional feature like a CD changer or air conditioning.

Re:Can't lose!

[Nick Ives]

Oh dear, ignore me, I'm wrong on UK law here it seems!

Re:Can't lose!

[Anonymous Coward]

It was in his court. Now it's just rolling away on down the road because he left the court. Probably realized what an idiot he is.

Re:Can't lose!

[flabordec]

Well hello there Mr. Obnoxious American and Mr. Pretentious Brit. Now, as you may or (more likely) may not be aware, the Metric system of measurements was established in the Metre convention in 1875. We use metres. You're entitled to use feet if you like, but every time you do everyone else has a quiet chuckle to himself, rolls his eyes at both of you and carries on in his usual measured manner.

Re:Can't lose!

[Anonymous Coward]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_English_language

Try reading the first few sentences of that you cock sucking brit. =]

Re:Can't lose!

[Khyber]

"It's also possible Sony will make every attempt to settle this out of court to prevent the court from definitively ruling on what a company may and may not put in a ToS/EULA."

You can be rest assured the second I sign up and obtain representative status this won't be allowed to happen. I will be the holdout if everyone else gets lured by $$$.

Re:Can't lose!

[Master Moose]

Colour...

Yank!

Re:Can't lose!

[MidnightBrewer]

Right back atcha, Mr. Obnoxious Brit! Just because you spell it "tyre" doesn't make it right, it just makes you stubborn. The spelling changed because it's a living language. :)

Re:Can't lose!

[Anonymous Coward]

Was the language invented in Britain? Or did it slowly diverge from what came before there, with part owed to Britain, part to Germans, part to Romans etc? The British are a step of the now forked "English" language. The latest step of the most pure (location-wise) branch, but full ownership can't be claimed. We could consider the other fork its own language, but which fork would be more important? (And would the rest of the world care, or laugh at America and Britain like a Windows user towards a Red Hat user arguing with a Debian user?)

Still, while Americans didn't create English proper (just a few words here and there) the same is true of the modern day British. Ya'll's (just love doing that, somewhere a teacher just had a nasty twitch) ancestors slowly created the language. Many Americans are of British descent, and have as much familial right to claim the language as someone who happened to be born on one of the British Isles. Where you're born doesn't grant a magical ownership of a language, the name is a historical curiosity dating to when a larger percent of those speaking the language were English.

This is of course a good thing overall, better to have a single heavily dialected yet still recognizable language then having it split further as English did from its precursors.

Ultimately there is no gold standard of any language, just as how there's not a perfect list of countries but a screwball system of A recognizes B while C says B is a renegade state
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_status_of_Taiwan as an example)
Likewise, what constitutes English is determined by what each speaker believes it to be and practices in speech. For many, their favorite dictionary is the standard, for others, their memory and whatever mishmash it contains. Ultimately it doesn't matter so long as the goal (communication) occurs. For the most part Americans and British can understand each other.

When a British person goes on the "All Americans are wrong, WE make the rules" kick it's essentially a child proudly claiming ownership and credit for the achievements of their parents. The current evolution of the language is probably less influenced by Britain and more by marketing departments of various multi-nationals and those in chat-rooms across the net. (Those playing fast and loose with the language.) Sadly, our rap videos probably are a bigger influence on what constitutes English than the whim of anyone in England. (To be honest, I'd rather England control English than a bunch of ?singers? trying to portray a life of crime as something to aspire to, feeding who knows how many kids into the arms of the illegal drug industry as pawns to use and dispose of.) Exported TV and movies are also a good measure of influence. There are many in the US who watch a few shows from the BBC. I don't know how much penetration American TV / movies enjoy in Britain, but I imagine that a few of our networks are selling their shows elsewhere.

We're all standing on the shoulders of giants here, maybe if in a few hundred years our countries can't understand each other one of us can be said to be the owner, most likely whichever is bigger. (In terms of how many people speak which version) Someone could end up laughing their head off over how America is not only the last holdout of the English measurement system but also of the "English" language after being small gets English-English renamed to "British". Even the English moved away from that stupid language, why do those always backwards Americans still speak it! Can Americans ALREADY be said to have taken ownership of English as spoils of the culture war? (Probably not with the war still ongoing, but we'll have to list it as contested for now.)

The creators of the language did not establish a council for the purpose of defining what the language did and didn't consist of, at least that survives to this day with the same purpose, so we're left with anarchy. Shun, SHUN the unbelievers of the anarchy who want an orthodox languag

Re:Can't lose!

[exomondo]

but games and bluray discs aren't marked as 'playable on a PS3 with firmware x.x' like software for desktops, which is marked 'requires OSX x.x or Windows X', they are marketed as PS3 games, playable on a PS3. Software for desktops isn't marked as 'Mac', or 'Windows', they specify a version.

Re:Can't lose!

[sjames]

And believe me, you don't want to be run over by tyre-ants, they hurt a lot more than the others.

Re:Can't lose!

[bobsalt]

I concur.. http://www.merriam-webster.com/netdict/attire

anyone over there using attyre?

Re:Can't lose!

[Homr Zodyssey]

Hah! I hadn't put that together before. And to think, I actually googled the quote to find out how to spell what he said. Apparantly a lot of other people didn't make that connection either. Thanks for pointing that out.

Re:Can't lose!

[Lord Kano]

They all truncate internal consonants.

I say British, they say Bri'ish.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pb2leixHIpU&feature=related

Testing the EULA?

[zero.kalvin]

I suppose this might an opportunity to test those "We reserve the right to change the EULA" and the EULAs themselves in court.

Re:Testing the EULA?

[Zironic]

I don't know much about US law, but I did study Swedish contract law which the EULA would fall under and generally such clauses are blatant violations of the law that states that contracts have to be balanced, generally they get away with them for services because if they change the terms you have the right to cancel the contract and get your money back, however for a device like the Playstation that would mean having to give a full refund as it no longer works as per the specifications it was bought for.

*standard IANAL disclaimer*

Re:Testing the EULA?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well if they have to have their full purchase price refunded they very well should have to send back in the PS3.

I wonder how many people will sue then? Some, but not near as many. Some people are expecting to "get rich quick" (and that will probably be a $10 PSN voucher) and keep their PS3.

Re:Testing the EULA?

[91degrees]

It will give very limited rights. However, I suspect it would allow them to make reasonable changes if things were unclear, or if a clause was found to be invalid, or if the law changes.

If the EULA was changed to be clearly in the favour of the other party I doubt there would be any complaint. Not going to happen though.

Re:Testing the EULA?

[anyGould]

Well if they have to have their full purchase price refunded they very well should have to send back in the PS3. I wonder how many people will sue then? Some, but not near as many. Some people are expecting to "get rich quick" (and that will probably be a $10 PSN voucher) and keep their PS3.

Keep in mind that "full purchase price" would be the *original* price paid, not the currently reduced selling price.

I suspect a lot of people would happily turn in their years-old PS3, get full money back, and buy a brand-new one at the cheaper rate.

Re:Testing the EULA?

[Duradin]

But the new PS3s don't have Other OS, which is apparently essential to using a PS3. So if they were 'happily' turning in their old Other OS capable PS3s Other OS must not be that big of a deal other than a shot at refund money.

Re:Testing the EULA?

[anyGould]

That's not the point - they can just as easily use their refund money to get a PC (to run Linux), or get a XBox or Wii, or just spend it on hookers and blow.

It's no different than if my dishwasher doesn't perform as advertised - I get my money back, and if I want to buy a lesser dishwasher, that's my own business.

PDF of court document

[zepo1a]

here:
http://ia331218.us.archive.org/2/items/gov.uscourts.cand.226894/gov.uscourts.cand.226894.1.0.pdf

FYI

[Anonymous Coward]

In Europe, EULA's have been testen in court and found to be non-binding.

Re:FYI

[Anonymous Coward]

I fail to see how a court result in Europe have an effect in US... Unless something similar happened in US and I missed it. ps, Can you show me a link of that?

Re:FYI

[Anonymous Coward]

They might have been testen, but have they been tested?

Re:FYI

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

Citation? I've seen rulings in specific countries in the EU that say users can reject an EULA after a purchase and return the part of the purchase to which the EULA applies. I have not seen any ruling binding in the whole of the EU that makes EULA's non-binding.

In the US and EU, courts have found specific portions of EULAs to be unenforcable, but I haven't seen anything making them non-binding in general.

Re:FYI

[Lunix Nutcase]

That's because you won't see any such citations. The whole "EULAs are unenforceable" is a false meme that constantly repeated on Slashdot. It's the same as the people who will talk about how ISPs are "common carriers" yet no such actual status for ISPs exist. The problem is that since these falsities have been repeated so many times that most Slashtards take them as fact.

Re:FYI

[beelsebob]

1. This case is in the US, not the EU
2. In *germany* EULAs have been tested in court and found to be non-binding.

Re:FYI

[Captain Centropyge]

^Citation needed...^

Re:FYI

[JavaBear]

If I recall the parts of the EULA that are unenforceable in the EU are the parts about the producer/seller being able to make changes at will, and their self proclaimed right to change their ToS at will as well.
It's what you have at the time of purchase that is the key.

Re:FYI

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, Zironic speaks the truth. If the EULA breaks any laws the EULA itself is simply void. Nordic (and several other European countries) have laws to protect the consumer, not the big capitalist multi-national companies. Long live Norway!

Re:FYI

[Khyber]

"The whole "EULAs are unenforceable" is a false meme that constantly repeated on Slashdot."

You're full of fucking shit.

I sued EA for their EULA/Spore. Guess what? I won.

Don't talk unless you were actually in the court room, pal.

Re:FYI

[protektor]

ISPs are given "common carrier" status under the DMCA. You have to register your ISP with the FTC I believe with a valid address to mail DMCA complaints to not be held liable for what the customers do with their websites and such.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_carrier
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DMCA

Read through that and the DMCA laws for more information. ISPs have fought for "common carrier" status, but not for "telecom common carrier" status, just to be clear.

So you are incorrect when you say that ISP do not have "common carrier" status, when in fact ISPs have legally recognized "common carrier" status. It is why ISPs are not hauled in to court for copyright, trademark, trade secrets, and libel violations for what their customers do. The ISPs are in fact only "Common Carriers" can *NOT* be held legally liable for what their customers do online.

So in fact you are 100% wrong.

Re:FYI

[protektor]

I would love to see reference to a court case where in Germany the judge ruled that *ALL* EULAs are invalid, and not just a portion of a EULA. Please post a URL for this information.

Re:FYI

[Anonymous Coward]

No, it's not (not completely anyway). If an EULA conflicts with local legislation, the law prevails. At least that's how it is in the Netherlands.

What can and can't be enforced in an EULA will be different for each different EULA and each country though.

Re:FYI

[beelsebob]

Statement 2 was There exists an eula, such that it was tested in germany, and found to be non-binding; not for all. Sorry if that wasn't clear. It was actually a pretty important part of my point, so yeh, buggered that one, didn't I.

Re:FYI

[Zironic]

the EULA is non binding for a number of reasons (and the companies know this which is why they're not going to go to court about it)

These include
1) a click through is not a valid signature
2) a contract is only valid if both parties understand the contract (never the case with EULA's)
3) it fails the requirement of being a balanced contract (you can't be forced to sign a contract that's objectively a bad deal)

(IANAL and this refers to Swedish law as per a few years ago)

Well...

[Raxxon]

(1) How do people join?

(2) If I bought the unit used for the ability to play PS2 games and OtherOS, do I qualify? It was bought within the time specified....

Re:Well...

[zepo1a]

IANAL... But I believe you are already joined, unless you "opt out" by fileing your own suit. Isn't that how class actions work?

Re:Well...

[Abcd1234]

Indeed that is. That said, you do need to notify the judge/court/something that you are a member of the class, and therefore entitled to compensation under any ruling (after all, the court can't know you're a PS3 owner unless you tell them).

That said, I *think* you are given some period *after* any ruling to send that notification.

Re:Well...

[Vanderhoth]

I've read anyone in the states who bought their PS3 before March 28, 2010 when the lawsuit was filed and initially had the functionality is automatically part of the lawsuit. I don't know if that applies to me in Canada or not. I've also read that you may Opt-out of the lawsuit if you wish, I don't know how you do that.

Re:Well...

[AndrewNeo]

I don't think they ever retroactively removed the ability to play PS2 games from the older hardware that supports it. The new hardware won't let you, but it also isn't advertised as supporting it. (Like how the Slim didn't support Other OS either)

Re:Well...

[DavidTC]

I don't think they ever retroactively removed the ability to play PS2 games from the older hardware that supports it.

As far as I know, you're right.

The PS3 supports PS2s via simply having a bunch of chips from the PS2. They have, over the years, been removing the least-used of these on each newer PS3, each removal of which removes some games from working. (And now they have PS3s with no support at all.)

So as far as I know, inability to play any PS2 game is a hardware issue, not a software one. (Although there might be software that refuses to run the game in the first place if it detects it will use the missing hardware.)

PS1 support, OTOH, is via software emulation, IIRC. Do all PS3s still do that?

Re:Well...

[AndrewNeo]

All PS3's do still support PS1 games, as they sell them on the PSN as well as for the PSP. Pure software emulation. However, the last models of the PS3 that supported PS2 games were full software emulation, nobody could figure out why Sony took it out (besides from them being Sony)

Re:Well...

[DavidTC]

Ah, okay.

I really don't know much about consoles. And I certainly wouldn't buy a Sony one!

Re:Well...

[Khyber]

"However, the last models of the PS3 that supported PS2 games were full software emulation,"

No, the graphics subsystem was ALWAYS in hardware.

Re:Well...

[spire3661]

PS2 emulation wasnt pure software. The Graphics Synthesizer chip from the PS2 was still physically present.

Re:Well...

[Da w00t]

One for me please. I want to know how to join too. In the mean time I'm boycotting everything that is sony. Which is hard, because they've already got thousands of dollars of my cash. But I won't be doing any of the following:

• Going to the movie theatre (sony pictures)
• Listening to sony music (I havn't bought RIAA music in years, so this isn't hard)
• Purchasing sony hardware (AV equipment, etc)
• Purchasing any video games

This is all about the laywers...

[nweaver]

A prediction: there will be some settlement, where the "victims" can claim $10 in coupons for discounted games, but the lawyers will make a few hundred thousand or a million.

Re:This is all about the laywers...

[Anonymous Coward]

As long as it kicks Sony in the wallet, it is better than the whole lot of nothing that would happen otherwise.

Re:This is all about the laywers...

[Richard_at_work]

With a class action, the lawyers are bearing much of the risk of failure - you are welcome to employ your own lawyer and pay the full cost for a potentially better trade off if you so wish.

Re:This is all about the laywers...

[BradleyUffner]

A prediction: there will be some settlement, where the "victims" can claim $10 in coupons for discounted games, but the lawyers will make a few hundred thousand or a million

Its the lawyers doing all the work here, how much money do you expect for doing nothing but signing your name, you don't even have to show up in court.

Re:This is all about the laywers...

[StripedCow]

Another prediction: next generation game consoles will not include a "boot second OS" option from the start.

That's right, another clear case where lawyers win and open-source loses.

Re:This is all about the laywers...

[karcirate]

You are basically defining all class action lawsuits, ever. Thanks.

Re:This is all about the laywers...

[MikeBabcock]

You do realize that leaving a huge gaping security hole open would hurt their pocket book a lot more, right? Closing the loophole and keeping all those game licensees coming is much more important.

If you can't understand that, you forget they're selling a game console.

Re:This is all about the laywers...

[icebraining]

Nobody would have to do nothing if it wasn't for Sony. They should pay up a nice refund for every buyer PLUS the lawyer expenses.

Re:This is all about the laywers...

[Anonymous Coward]

Relative to the lawyer who put in 40 hours a week at 40,000? I'd say about $100.

Re:This is all about the laywers...

[icebraining]

Another prediction: next generation game consoles will not include a "boot second OS" option from the start.

The current generation already didn't: the PS3 Slim never included it.

Re:This is all about the laywers...

[elrous0]

Many (if not almost all) of those class action suits are secretly supported by the company being sued itself. For a payout to some lawyers and a bunch of worthless coupons, they get blanket legal immunity from any further individual lawsuits.

Re:This is all about the laywers...

[Solandri]

Its the lawyers doing all the work here, how much money do you expect for doing nothing but signing your name, you don't even have to show up in court.

Last time I checked, the payouts for those lawsuits were supposed to be compensatory for something the defendant company did wrong. The payouts are not payment for services rendered. In other words, if the court decides in the consumers' favor, then everyone who signs their name was "injured" by the defendant and deserves part of the settlement, and the lawyers should be thankful that they're getting a cut of it. Not the other way around as you seem to think it is.

To address OP's concern, the Class Action Fairness Act of 2005 changed things so the court can make sure the lawyers' payout is reasonable and proportional to the award given to plaintiffs. e.g. If the lawyers negotiate a purely coupon payment for the plaintiffs, they can be required to take part or all of their payment in coupons.

Re:This is all about the laywers...

[Khyber]

"you don't even have to show up in court."

Unless you're a class representative and testimonial witness.

Re:This is all about the laywers...

[k8to]

Yeah, the lawyers bear the risk of failure, but in practice they don't engage in class action suits where there's a real risk of failure. They go for the sure thing, get a helping of cash, and then the vendor is off the hook forevermore.

This means that they short circuit liability issues that really should require much stronger measures, because these lawyers are not acting in the interest of the aggrieved parties. Why should they? No one hired them!

The way class actions are currently structured, the only significant winners are the law firms.

That said, they still seem to offer some kind of reasonable counterweight to big business, so no one's really racing to get rid of them, but neither is anyone really sure how to make them work better.

Re:This is all about the laywers...

[sjames]

A lawsuit, even a class action is supposed to make the wronged party whole. That will include fair compensation and, of course, legal costs. It's not supposed to be an investment or a business risk.

Re:This is all about the laywers...

[MikeBabcock]

You do realize that leaving a huge gaping security hole open would hurt their pocket book a lot more, right? Closing the loophole and keeping all those game licensees coming is much more important.

If you can't understand that, you forget they're selling a game console.

That's not trolling mods, just cause you don't agree with something doesn't make it a troll. It was and still is a valid point.

Pray I don't alter it any further...

[Cybercifrado]

Sony reminds me of Vader from this clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOaCRGVYGTc

And if I weren't laughing, I'd be crying at the stupid shit Sony is trying to force the consumers into.

Re:Pray I don't alter it any further...

[drinkypoo]

It's easy to laugh if you didn't buy a PS3. Bwahahahaha!

Re:Pray I don't alter it any further...

[Vanderhoth]

You won't be laughing so hard if Sony "gets away with it". If they do you should expect to see every other major company start to pull this kind of crap after they've sold you a product promising A, B and C. They'll stop letting you use B. Then who'll be laughing.

Re:Pray I don't alter it any further...

[jack2000]

I was going to buy a ps3. But now i never will, even if they restore the function.

Re:Pray I don't alter it any further...

[V!NCENT]

So how's that red ring of death working out for you ;) :P

Re:Pray I don't alter it any further...

[Anonymous Coward]

And even easier to cry when the only other non-computer current generation gaming systems are the Wii and a pile of shit.
Guess it is time to go back to listening to music and watching movies... ah crap never mind.
Ok reading then...
Anyone know where I can get a non-electronic book?

Re:Pray I don't alter it any further...

[Anonymous Coward]

Didn't know the Wii had a red ring?

Re:Pray I don't alter it any further...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's going to be interesting if Sony wins this. My guess is all kinds of companies will drop less used features to save money they'd have to spend to support them.

Re:Pray I don't alter it any further...

[MadKeithV]

They'll stop letting you use B. Then who'll be laughing.

Wrong. They'll stop letting you use A, B and C, and instead offer a lame D.

Re:Pray I don't alter it any further...

[caturday]

My Wii is great! Thanks for asking! Honestly, this is roughly the 10th time Sony has pulled this kind of bullshit. We're waaaaayyyy beyond "fool me twice."

Re:Pray I don't alter it any further...

[tophermeyer]

I've had it happen twice so far. Both times MS shipped me a refurb replacement with a new 3 yr warranty.

MS struggled at first with customer support, but I think they have learned to make efforts to keep their customers happy (and buying new games). Sony hasn't figured that out yet.

Re:Pray I don't alter it any further...

[V!NCENT]

Ahwesome, my PSP has also never died on me and I don't own a PS3... But is your name Cybercifrado? Then I didn't rethorically ask you :)

Re:Pray I don't alter it any further...

[JavaBear]

Frighteningly accurate, and if Sony gets away with this, what are they going to remove next, or what are other manufacturers going to remove after purchase?

Re:Pray I don't alter it any further...

[DavidTC]

Purchasing anything from Sony and getting surprised when some 'copy protection' bites you in the ass, is a bit like watching a sci-fi show on Fox and being surprised when they deliberately kill it.

FIRE HOT LAST TIME YOU TOUCHED IT. DON'T STICK HAND IN FIRE. FIRE HOT!

Seriously, earthworms are smarter than some of you people.

A contract can not take your rights away!

[Joe The Dragon]

A contract can not take your rights away!

Just as they can't say something like you must give us your kids.

Re:A contract can not take your rights away!

[Anonymous Coward]

This is not true, a contract such as a non-disclosure agreement takes away your right to talk about a specific subject.

Re:A contract can not take your rights away!

[Anonymous Coward]

Er, of course a contract can take your rights away. As long as doing so is not an illegal act.

It is routine to contract away legal remedies, for example. (E.g., all disputes will be handled by third party arbitration, or "damages are limited to replacement only.") Or to specify venue to someplace that favors the defendant.

While it is unusual, there are probably remote legal circumstances where "you must give us your children" might hold up.

Re:A contract can not take your rights away!

[jx100]

An adoption contract, maybe?

Re:A contract can not take your rights away!

[SharpFang]

Depends on laws the contract is based in.

The USA is pretty liberal about this, and the contract has a very firm binding power, allowing the seller to disclaim many liabilities and request a whole lot from the buyer.

The EU has pretty strong customer protection laws. A contract can claim a lot of bullshit but it can't override these laws and they are binding - and you can't disclaim them by a contract. Yes, there is no problem that you demand I click "I agree there is no warranty, I agree not to reverse-engineer, I agree you are entitled to change these terms without notice with no compensation", and I have no problem clicking it. It has no legal bearing. The best the manufacturer can do is to bullshit and coerce the customers into believing the EULA is binding. Nope, it's null and void wherever overridden by consumer laws.

Re:A contract can not take your rights away!

[PAjamian]

an NDA is not unconscionable because it is an exchange. In exchange for not disclosing certain information you are given the right to see trade secrets, or to hold employment (and to see trade secrets), or some other right. So while it is taking away one right it is giving you something else in return. What SONY is attempting to do is contractually remove features from the PS3 without any form of compensation at all. That is an unconscionable contract.

Re:They perpetrated on me!

[V!NCENT]

There is a difference between a lense that wears out over time of usage (products that are being consumed, like with a non-rechargeble battery) and a car that simply works, but after service got it's backseat stripped. But hey, you can still drive the car, right? So what's the problem. Many people will never use teh backseat when they buy a car when they travel...

But I can see your point :P

Re:So what?

[twistedsymphony]

Human body update 568.3... since you have the potential to put non-edible things in your mouth we are disabling eating so that you may continue to breath our air service, you may chose to deny this update and continue eating but we will no longer allow you access to air... We're not forcing you to stop eating.. the choice is entirely yours. Have a nice day.

A reasonable outcome

[jmichaelg]

I'm not a fan of class action lawsuits because they usually result in pennies for the consumer and millions for the attorneys. They're basically lawyer-enrichment actions.

For this suit to be any different, the best outcome would be to give Sony an option.

1. Restore the Linux implementation and purchase full page ads in the NY Times, LA Times, Washington Post advertising they have done so along with a mea culpa and a promise never to disable functionality again.
2. Refund the full purchase price to any purchaser who wishes to return the unit and purchase ads as above advertising the availability of the refund with a mea culpa.

Give the attorneys a few million for their time whichever choice Sony takes and the outcome will serve as a warning to companies that they can't put whatever they wish into EULAs because consumers will bite back.
 

Re:A reasonable outcome

[jedidiah]

If you think large torts are just "lawyer enrichment" then the criminal justice system is really just the same thing. It's a welfare system for mediocre law students.

That kind of stupid logic works either way.

The point is to discourage the next guy from stealing from you or crippling your wife.

Re:A reasonable outcome

[Anonymous Coward]

If you think large torts are just "lawyer enrichment"
I believe GP was referring to class action suits, not all large torts. In some large tort cases, the victim(s) actually get reasonable compensation for their trouble, whereas class action suits tend to give pocket change.

Re:A reasonable outcome

[TerminaMorte]

...and a promise never to disable functionality again.

They had already made that promise... and then broke it. I find it hard to believe anything Sony says at this point.

I'd rather just see them lose a few million at this point. It's the only way companies seem to learn.

Re:A reasonable outcome

[bigrockpeltr]

l4rG3 T0rTs... Lawyer Enrichment Pills! Free Sample available now for the low price of $29.99. No purchase necessary just send your bank account details to King Xuluhulubappa President of the bank or Gamahilli to receive $10000 US in heirlooms and unwanted inheritance.

Re:A reasonable outcome

[slinches]

Since it's highly unlikely that 1 will happen and 2 isn't desirable for those who value having both Other OS and PSN access over the cash, I propose a third option:

3. Restore full functionality to the owner by giving them a second PS3 and promise to never disable functionality again.

Re:A reasonable outcome

[Anonymous Coward]

The point is to discourage the next guy from stealing from you or crippling your wife

and how many class-action suits have actually resulted in more than a slap-on-the-wrist?

In this particular case, Sony should be fined for whatever gain they made from offering Linux in the first place. Like others in this thread have already said, the PS3 was Sony's ace in the HD format wars and any PS3 sale was counted as a BR player in those wars. In order for this to be more than a slap on the wrist, they should be fined an appropriate portion of their BR sales (say, 60%, because that's roughly the percentage of PS3s versus other BR players).

Re:So what?

[Vanderhoth]

I'm kind of glad at least one person does. Too bad you have to be an AC to do so. LOL

Pointless, sue individually instead.

[Umuri]

Class Action lawsuits in this country are near pointless in terms of causing redress, and barely hurt the companies they're brought against. In a lot of bigger companies they're seen as a regular cost of business.
As said in other posts, enjoy your coupon that ends up making you spend more money.

If you REALLY wanted to get redress, take sony to small claims court.
$50-100 filing fee(75 in my state), you can get damages up to $5000, and you can make sony pay the court fee upon winning too.

They'll either start settling cases, or waste a lot more sending representation to win.
So sue em for the cost a new PS3, since that's what it will take to restore you the original functionality that they took away ( one PS3 to play games and do PSN, one to run linux, since you can't do it on both anymore).

Re:Pointless, sue individually instead.

[Anonymous Coward]

And....if you lose, you're responsible for all of their costs - including reasonable travel and expenses for their lawyer. You ready to chance shelling out a lot of money over, what, $300, for something silly?

Re:Pointless, sue individually instead.

[Barrinmw]

I think this was discussed with the last article about the Sony Other OS removal. Some problems are, 1. Sony is going to ignore the verdict. Most especially if its in a state where they aren't corporated in. 2. How are you going to sue someone for $5000 when all you lost out on at the most was $600 or so for the cost of the PS3? 3. It takes a good amount of hard work on your own to file and win in small claims court. Hence, people do Class Action Lawsuits.

Re:Pointless, sue individually instead.

[MikeBabcock]

Especially if its a $600 piece of hardware that came with a one year warranty that hasn't been sold for over almost a year.

I'm quite certain GM doesn't have to guarantee your car to be drivable in 7 years either. Just an aside.

Re:Pointless, sue individually instead.

[Aaron B Lingwood]

So sue em for the cost a new PS3, since that's what it will take to restore you the original functionality that they took away ( one PS3 to play games and do PSN, one to run linux, since you can't do it on both anymore).

Add to this the cost of the additional 380Wh the second unit will draw over its lifetime and the cooling required.

Re:Pointless, sue individually instead.

[bdgcorp]

Class Action lawsuits in this country are near pointless in terms of causing redress, and barely hurt the companies they're brought against. In a lot of bigger companies they're seen as a regular cost of business.
As said in other posts, enjoy your coupon that ends up making you spend more money.

If you REALLY wanted to get redress, take sony to small claims court.
$50-100 filing fee(75 in my state), you can get damages up to $5000, and you can make sony pay the court fee upon winning too.

They'll either start settling cases, or waste a lot more sending representation to win.
So sue em for the cost a new PS3, since that's what it will take to restore you the original functionality that they took away ( one PS3 to play games and do PSN, one to run linux, since you can't do it on both anymore).

I think the best outcome for a class action is that they have to "undo" this mess and leave things as is. If their intention was to stop the hacking of the product, then that's their problem and they'll have to deal with that on their own dime (Not mine). I'm not buying anymore 'Sucky" crap either way. Companies like this don't deserve my hard earned cash.

Re:Pointless, sue individually instead.

[Richy_T]

But they can't come and swap out your alloy rims for steel either.

Re:Pointless, sue individually instead.

[PixelScuba]

No, just 5 years or 100,000 miles.

Re:Pointless, sue individually instead.

[Courageous]

I thought you couldn't name a corporation in small claims court action? Nice if you can.

Re:Pointless, sue individually instead.

[MikeBabcock]

That was precisely my point (we have 6 yr warranties on some vehicles so I said 7 just to make sure nobody got all pedantic on me).

Re:Pointless, sue individually instead.

[MikeBabcock]

Only if your warranty agreement says they can't.

They could however probably say that your vehicle requires being switched to steel rims for some cold weather excuse in your region to still be under warranty however.

Again, Sony didn't FORCE this change. They asked if you wanted to upgrade to the changed firmware. Most people I've heard of legitimately using PS3s for computing don't dual-boot. Those people weren't affected.

Re:Pointless, sue individually instead.

[Richy_T]

Only if your warranty agreement says they can't.

WTF? Seriously? What are you smoking?

Re:Pointless, sue individually instead.

[Fallen Kell]

And "those people" were probably not trying to use the system for GAME and PSN as well as linux. The "option" was to choose which features you loose. Going back to the car analogies, it is like saying yes, you have a choice, you can "optionally" do nothing and you keep your upgraded rims package that you purchased, however, your car is no longer street legal and your insurance company is being notified and you can no longer get insurance, and thus can no longer drive it on the road. Or you can have us remove your upgraded rims and install the stock ones, and you stay legal, but you don't get the extra $$$ you paid for it back.

You will note that car companies perform a "recall" on a part or feature that they screwed up and they either refund you the cost of the vehicle if it can't be corrected, or they repair/replace the part with one that does the same features as the original but fixes the flaw that caused the recall event. Sony didn't want to spend the time/money to put a proper fix for the security flaw, or possibly can't fix it, and simply decided to remove it. By the car analogy, the customers deserve their money back if that is the case.

Re:Pointless, sue individually instead.

[AK Marc]

May depend on where you are, I've never seen anything that prevents it. Perhaps it is because lawyers are essentially banned from small claims courts, and a corporation would be required to use one. In Alaska, small claims is essentially the same, but with the procedural process relaxed. The costs and such are just about the same.

Re:Pointless, sue individually instead.

[AK Marc]

Again, Sony didn't FORCE this change.

Yes, they did. They didn't grab your hand and make you poke the button. But they did use force. You either upgrade, or you are banned from online content and lose the ability to play future games. You give them what they want, or they'll take away something from you. That's force.

Re:Pointless, sue individually instead.

[PixelScuba]

Kia has a 10 year warranty

...but now I'm just being pedantic :P I agree with your analogy about a $600 dollar electronics equipment and the length of time they should warranty the product.

Re:Pointless, sue individually instead.

[Khyber]

You can name a corporation in small claims.

On the other hand, if enough people in enough jurisdictions file the SAME SUIT in multiple courts, the judges have the option to consolidate all the claims into a class-action suit.

Re:Pointless, sue individually instead.

[Anonymous Coward]

I second this. Having worked in the Small Claims division of my local Legal Aid office, it's not all that difficult, and you don't even have to know anything about the law. All you'd probably have to do is show the judge your original PS3 box or some type of original advertisement showing Linux support as a feature, and some sort of proof that the newest required firmware update removes that feature. Basically, just explain to the judge in plain english that this is false advertising, and in order to restore the same functionality that was advertised (both playing games and running Linux), you now need a second PS3, and that Sony should pay for it.

You will probably have a good chance of winning.

Re:Pointless, sue individually instead.

[saxoholic]

No, GM doesn't have to guarantee your car be drivable in 7 years, but let's say there was a recall on the airbag system. The airbag was deploying for no reason, and caused several injuries. Your bring your car in to be repaired. You pick your car up a few hours later, and find it in the parking lot, and GM has fixed your air bag, but decided to remove the ability of your sunroof to open and close. Would you be okay with that? Not everyone uses their sunroof, but you paid for it. It's one thing if it breaks from wear and tear, but for them to REMOVE the functionality is ridiculous.

Re:Pointless, sue individually instead.

[spire3661]

A few logic fails in your post. Sony did force the change by making me choose PSN, future Blu-ray and game support or Linux. I paid for all of those, they have no right to make me choose. Secondly, even people that didnt have linux installed on capable hardware are absolutely affected. They have lost all future use of a feature they paid for. Thats like saying its ok for the car dealership to remove your spare tire because you've never had to use it, even though you paid for and own it.

Re:Pointless, sue individually instead.

[MikeBabcock]

Go talk to the people with their heated seats disabled because it was deemed a safety concern with cloth seat covers.

It happens.

Re:Pointless, sue individually instead.

[MikeBabcock]

Find me a car company, including Toyota, that has refunded the price of a car for a problem they can't fix without local lemon laws requiring it.

Re:Pointless, sue individually instead.

[MikeBabcock]

lol why do you think I cited GM? :)

But again, I highly doubt you can successfully sue a manufacturer for the functionality of a unit outside its warranty period.

Re:Pointless, sue individually instead.

[jhylkema]

And....if you lose, you're responsible for all of their costs - including reasonable travel and expenses for their lawyer.

In America, not true at all. In other common law jurisdictions, not necessarily true in small claims court.

Re:So what?

[muckracer]

> Hopefully if Sony loses this case they'll simply send all of you open source screwheads a 5 dollar coupon to the Sony store and tell you to get a clue.

This is not about Open Source. This is about customer rights...everybody's...yours included! And you're welcome for the effort of others to stand up for that.

Having done the firmware upgrade...

[McNihil]

it was pretty clear and in no uncertain terms that the "other OS" option would be disabled if I continue installing it. It also plainly said that I was allowed not to upgrade but would lose the PS3 Store connectivity.

If you depend on the "other OS" solution you simply don't upgrade.

The only persons this effects are the ones that want to use BOTH linux stuff and the newest PS3 store things. Knowing that users that have the PS3 setup as a Linux test station are not using the PS3 store stuff in any case and wouldn't need the new capabilities like twitter and facebook. Also with todays GPU's the use of the cell is not as important anymore in computing clusters so really the whole things is a large non issue.

And furthermore... if the persons are so dependent on both solutions why can't they buy a secondary PS3? Presumably they are consumers and are going to spend money in the PS3 store... or more likely they wont at all.

This law suite should fail. Not that I want to be on SONY's side but they were 100% clear in their intentions regarding the "other os" option from day one.

This entire suite is a non issue.

Re:Having done the firmware upgrade...

[ranulf]

Knowing that users that have the PS3 setup as a Linux test station are not using the PS3 store stuff in any case and wouldn't need the new capabilities

Big assumption you've made there. Lots of people used to use Linux and PSN. A small minority like myself have a PS3 dedicated to Linux (but even then, I still haven't upgraded beyond 3.15 on my main PS3 because it seems like a waste of a fat PS3).

Re:Having done the firmware upgrade...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, the firmware installer does give a notice that OtherOS will be removed if the firmware is installed.
And yes, there are most likely more people who don't use the OtherOS feature than people that do.

But what does that change? Does that make Sony more right than if the majority were affected?
I'm sure there are more people playing PS3 games than PS2 games. Is Sony right should they choose to disable PS2 compatibility of older consoles with their next firmware?

And I don't agree at all that Sony was 100% clear from day one that they would remove OtherOS. In fact, I don't remember anything of that sort at all. In fact, I do remember them clarifying when removing OtherOS from the "Slim" PS3 that this would not affect the older customer base...

And by the way, you are also wrong that it's just the PS3 store you lose if choosing not to upgrade. You lose the whole Playstation Network, so you can't play any network games anymore, yes, even older games that don't in anyway require the new firmware...

Re:Having done the firmware upgrade...

[ranulf]

This law suite should fail. Not that I want to be on SONY's side but they were 100% clear in their intentions regarding the "other os" option from day one.

You mean stating that the PS3 was an "open platform" and that "Other OS" and "Game OS" would always be able to coexist on the same PS3?

They're even still publicising this fact here...

Re:Having done the firmware upgrade...

[jittles]

That's a big negatory buddy. It's quite illegal to disable advertised functionality in a product after someone buys it. I'm sure there are a handful of laws in CA that this violates, including bait and switch laws. As mentioned before, Sony offered this to try and get around VAT taxes in the EU. Taxes are lower for a general computing device than for a video game console. If you ask me, the EU ought to hit Sony for tax evasion, too.

Re:Having done the firmware upgrade...

[Anonymous Coward]

What if I bought a PS3 with the express purposes of:
A) Playing PS3 games
and
B) Utilizing the Other OS feature

Before both A and B were possible. Now A xor B is possible.

Re:Having done the firmware upgrade...

[Splab]

You obviously don't own a PS3, so let us enlighten you a bit.

If you don't upgrade you get Linux support - that much you got, however, failing to upgrade wont just affect your PSN games, they will be the first to go, but over time you will lose support for all new games since they will require a newer firmware. Also, not upgrading will prevent you from signing on to PSN, which will prevent you from playing with your friends, which kinda makes the PS3 useless for most of the fun games.

Also, if you don't sign on to PSN, your high scores wont show in all games, again making the point of most games moot. Sony did remove functionality, no matter how you look at it, a PS3 owner is forced to upgrade and lose Linux or stay put and lose PSN (and most games) - this lawsuit has its merits.

Re:Having done the firmware upgrade...

[Anonymous Coward]

if you don't like it buy another one? good thinking asshole

Re:Having done the firmware upgrade...

[Anonymous Coward]

You're wrong & you're an idiot.

Re:Having done the firmware upgrade...

[jx100]

Then you've lost the use of the PSN and anything that requires it.

Either way, you've lost a serious amount of functionality that was claimed on the box. If you don't install, the functionality happens to be "play games"

Just because someone tells you they're making a dick move doesn't mean they're no longer making a dick move.

Re:Having done the firmware upgrade...

[Pennidren]

I have no firsthand knowledge of anything PS3, but according to the court document the inability to upgrade to 3.21 will affect quite a bit more than access to the PS3 Store.
Your attitude is dismissive of something that affects others but not yourself. I am sorry to say that you are not the only person that purchased a PS3.

if the persons are so dependent on both solutions why can't they buy a secondary PS3?

I didn't know Sony had a slashdot account!

Re:Having done the firmware upgrade...

[Urza9814]

Bullshit. You buy a PS3 and then a couple years later they tell you 'ok, now you have to choose between feature A not working and feature B not working'. If Sony is allowed to do this, then that also means it would be legal for them to start charging money for the features that the game consale originally came with and advertised as being free. Why don't they just make the next firmware update required a $50 payment every time you want to eject the current game disk? I mean as long as they let you know that's what it's doing before installing, there's nothing wrong with that, right?

You can't sell something that doesn't do what it's advertised as doing. And you can't sell something that's going to stop functioning at some future date without making that clear at the time of purchase.

Re:Having done the firmware upgrade...

[Barrinmw]

Except, if you chose to keep the Other OS, you would be unable to play games on the PSN that you could the previous day, so you are losing out on that which is advertised to you by keeping something that was advertised to you. Its like the government telling you that they are taking your car tires, and if you choose to keep them, you can't drive on public roads anymore.

Re:Having done the firmware upgrade...

[L4t3r4lu5]

The only persons this effects are the ones that want to use BOTH linux stuff and the newest PS3 store things.

Why the fuck should I have to choose between them?

Further, could you tell me where I can find this "from day one" notification to disable this feature? Because Sony have just decided to update this page with a disclaimer which I can tell you was certainly not there two weeks ago.

Re:Having done the firmware upgrade...

[bdgcorp]

That's not the point. The point is that I purchased my PS3 Instead of Xbox or Wii because it had this capability. In addition to using my Linux system, I could still enjoy playing games that I already owned (PS2) and new games purchased on DVD or through the Network. I established a contract w/ "Sucky" to own a machine that had these capabilities. Now "Sucky" comes around and says We've decided that you shouldn't have these things anymore (for whatever reason). They have now gone back and broken our agreement. They should pay. It's not about whether I agree to the firmware upgrade or not, They've changed the agreement. Just for the record, I'm done with "Sucky" whether they correct this or not. My spell checker seems to be broke. I meant to say Sony not "Sucky".

Re:Having done the firmware upgrade...

[Anonymous Coward]

What kind of moron says that you should just buy a second PS3 if they remove functionality?

That is exactly why a lawsuit is necessary.

Jesus Christ some people are fucking retarded.

Re:Having done the firmware upgrade...

[MikeBabcock]

Actually, nowhere on that page does it say any of what you claimed.

What it says is that if you install the software you can do things with it.

Nowhere does it guarantee the software to be installable.

Re:Having done the firmware upgrade...

[DavidTC]

Consumer laws do now work like that.

If things are advertised as being able to do things, they better be able to do them, including all required steps.

You can't sell someone a car labeled as having air conditioning but without any actual switches to turn it on.

Re:Having done the firmware upgrade...

[crazy]

If you depend on the "other OS" solution you simply don't upgrade.

I will chime in as a hardcore player and someone who uses the OtherOS function as well.

I have Ubuntu installed for the sole purpose of running a webcam server using the PS3 eye. I use it to keep an eye on my dog who stays in the living room and just as a general checkup on the house. I did not want to pay for a wireless webcam or drag my entire PC into the living room when I could get the same capability for much cheaper. The ability to run a simple webcam server has allowed me to watch the cam anywhere through my Iphone (ISpyCams app) as well. At the same time, I run Folding@home on the machine when I run the webcam and occasionally use it to semi-skype chat with my family by having them watch my streaming cam and me watch theirs on a huge plasma screen TV.

When I am at home I pretty much only play online with games such as BFBC2. Before this update, this was the greatest thing in the world. To be able to watch my house anywhere on the iphone and have an awesome gaming machine.

Now, I can either lose this Linux capability for no reason or not play online.

For a while someone had setup a simple proxy which allowed you to not update and still play online. This seemed like a good solution until about a few weeks ago Sony got around to blocking this as well.

They are obviously being more aggressive in this than they let on.

Re:Having done the firmware upgrade...

[Anonymous Coward]

cell \neq gpgpu

Re:Having done the firmware upgrade...

[Anonymous Coward]

If you knew how to spell law "suit" I might be able to take you seriously...But you are correct, the entire "suite" is a non issue but the lawsuit may be an issue...

Re:Having done the firmware upgrade...

[r_jensen11]

My favorite parts from that page you linked:

On PS3 system models sold earlier than the CECH-2000 series models, the Open Platform feature will not be available if the system software is updated to version 3.21 or later

followed up by:

To use the Linux operating system, you must update the PS3 system software to version 1.60 or later.

Now if we could only find out where to download any versions between 1.60 and 3.21 for CECH-2000 models....

Re:Having done the firmware upgrade...

[MikeBabcock]

That's funny, because Sony's been selling the slim PS3s without this ability for quite a while now.

Nobody seemed to find that to be false advertising.

Re:Having done the firmware upgrade...

[linear core]

Fifty dollars to eject the disc? That's ridiculous.

No, after sales of the system drop off, they'll just change the terms so you pay somewhere around $7.99/month to connect to PSN Premium. You will need Premium if you want to play online with friends or download "special content." This cost, of course, is to maintain the PSN servers, which require money to run now that Sony has sold so many PS3s. Not so ridiculous now, is it?

Re:Having done the firmware upgrade...

[McNihil]

A PS3 80 GB in fact...

How simple is it to exchange a HD on the PS3?

How much does it cost to exchange to a newer HD... oh let say a 500GB (because lets face it: that 80 GB if you are really doing anything on PSN will be gone quicker than you say err...)

And the "Other OS" only allotted 10 GB on the HD which isn't what I personally would have wanted. I wanted the entire HD to be a Linux capable "partition."

Presumably this HD update has more or less needed to happen for a lot of "Other OS" users if they are serious about using PS3 in both modes. They would have two HD's... one with the old firmware and one with the new... oh sure it is a biatch to go in and change all the time but what the heck the bootup into Linux wasn't exactly straightforward either.

Again this entire thing is a BIG NON ISSUE.

Honestly it comes across as if Linux users are a bunch of tightwads.

Re:Having done the firmware upgrade...

[Imrik]

The PS3 slims were never advertised as having this ability.

Re:Having done the firmware upgrade...

[Urza9814]

Yes, it is ridiculous, because they sold it to you with the promise that _that would be free_. If when you purchased it, the box stated that you may someday need to pay $7.99/month to use online components, fine. But it doesn't. This isn't about if what they are changing/doing is reasonable. It's about whether or not they can dramatically alter the product _after you buy it_.

Re:Having done the firmware upgrade...

[anyGould]

Actually, nowhere on that page does it say any of what you claimed.

What it says is that if you install the software you can do things with it.

Nowhere does it guarantee the software to be installable.

Oooh... I like where this is going...

"If you drive our car, your anatomy will swell to untold sizes!"

Then sell cars that don't turn on.

Re:Having done the firmware upgrade...

[Khyber]

"There is more to the PLAYSTATION®3 (PS3) computer entertainment system than you may have assumed. In addition to playing games, watching movies, listening to music, and viewing photos, you can use the PS3 system to run the Linux operating system. "

Are you fucking blind or what? It's in the first goddamned paragraph.

Re:Having done the firmware upgrade...

[Splab]

Wait... What???

Firmware upgrade is not your harddrive getting new software - and even if it was, are you seriously suggesting to people that it's ok that they have to pay for a new harddrive and have to change it out whenever they want to use that other option?

No fucking way you have a PS3 or know anything about this issue...

Re:Having done the firmware upgrade...

[Anonymous Coward]

They're even still publicising this fact here...

Not only is the entire page false advertising, but the most explicit lie is at the bottom of the page:

"To use the Linux operating system, you must update the PS3 system software to version 1.60 or later."

"OR LATER"

You read that right... they're claiming that all versions of the firmware after 1.60 will allow you to install/run Linux.

Sony, you are so fucked. Even MICROSOFT gave the people what they wanted when they fucked up (xbox360 replacements, at THEIR expense, pre-paid shipping container and all).
Just give the people back the features they paid for and all this can end. It's OKAY to admit you fucked up. Because you did. And the majority of the technological population realizes it, but you don't seem to.

If you want to say "fuck you" to the people who didn't buy your system, hey great, go ahead and insult potential customers, and lose the hope of ever having them as customers.
But when you say "fuck you" to the people who KEEP YOU IN BUSINESS, the game is OVER. That's right, Sony, you are going to cease to exist as a company. When you fuck over your customers, you lose them.
Hope you enjoyed your run as a profitable company, because those days are over.

Re:Having done the firmware upgrade...

[saxoholic]

What if you're running linux, and you want to play MLB 10: The Show, for example. One of the biggest reasons for purchasing that game in the first place is the weekly updated MLB rosters. If you want to keep running linux you lose access to the service you paid for there. Sometimes a game will REQUIRE you to update the firmware in order to install it if it's a very new game, and you haven't updated firmware in a while. So you're choosing between losing functionality, or losing functionality. It's more than just the PS3 store.

Re:Having done the firmware upgrade...

[exomondo]

And furthermore... if the persons are so dependent on both solutions why can't they buy a secondary PS3?

oh ok so sony takes away the functionality they advertised - and the reason i bought it - and you solution is, 'go buy another one'?! wtf?! so if i bought a tv and the manufacturer decided they wanted either the HDMI ports or the TV tuner back your solution would be to just buy another TV so that between the 2 of them i could have the functionality that i originally had with the one device i bought as advertised?!

Re:Having done the firmware upgrade...

[McNihil]

Are you sure you are not the one not having one... I believe you are rather not able to make it work. Your technical deficiencies should not be used as a litigation device.

As I said before this lawsuit comes a cross now not only as Linux users are tightwads but also litigious tightwads as soon as something isn't catered to us on a golden plate. I stand firm in my ultimate conclusion that this eventually will make a stain on the Linux community and I as sure don't want a part of it.

For the life of me I don't understand how somebody can even run Linux productively (desktop wise) on something energy hungry like the PS3... mine is constantly on 300+ W... performance per watt is unbelievably bad and when using gnome on there its really really slow... the ONLY way I get any productivity is to just ssh into it and do calculations on the cells... which again is hopelessly ineffective in comparison to newer GPUs from both nVidia and AMD. So yeah I have been there... it was nice while it lasted but heck I moved along LONG time ago with more effective solutions.

And with 10 GB max as the partition? Ridicules! Not enough for serious stuff. Do I have to have an external HD then? Wow isn't that the same as buying more HW? No I really believe that YOU have no clue what the entire Linux offering on PS3 (and PS2) was really all about.

Re:So what?

[V!NCENT]

So how is that ribbon interface working out for you on your widescreen? Miss the space to actually see what your typing? I thought that Microsoft Office was a "What you see is what you get" editor.

And how are all those malware virusses and nasty shit affecting your Windows install? You can't detect a rootkit if you got 'em!
If you got a virus scanner of some sort it will eat more CPU and more importantly HDD access time. Not to mention all the time and money due to power consumption by which you unnessecairily polute our planet with that takes up your life. Also the defragmentations and whatnot... Go no suspend to RAM with you driver? AAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaahw that sucks... nobody will fix this for you in your binary blob. Aaaaawh too bad...

And all this reduced CPU time due to the DRM and whatever Windows is 'doing'...

Your window management SUCKS. You get no free of charge video editor that kicks the shit out of iMovie and Sony Vegas (KDenLive, yes Linux has the best video editing for a long while...)

Etc, etc, etc...

By using a free of charge, documented OS I am actually able to do a lot and fullfill all of my needs. You on the other hand are the retart in this case.

Okey thanks bye. Oh and please die from something very soon, or opt out for the castration clause, because if you reproduce you will statistically lower the entire worlds IQ avarage.

Oh and BTW, that comment of yours was processed by freedom and gratis software... :)

EULA

[Anonymous Coward]

Sony's standard EULA states that if the machine
1) didn't work,
2) didn't do what the expensive advertisements said,
3) electrocuted the immediate neighborhood,
4) and in fact failed entirely to be inside the expensive box when you opened it,
This was expressly, absolutely, implicitly and in no event the fault or responsibility of the manufacturer,

5) that the purchaser should consider himself lucky to be allowed to give his money to the manufacturer,
6) that any attempt to treat what had just been paid for as the purchaser's own property would result in the attentions of serious men with menacing briefcases and very thin watches. /cite{Good Omens}

They just added
7) If the machine does work, we will break it the next time we want your money or feel like it.

Re:EULA

[31415926535897]

I know you're being funny, but no contract allows anybody to engage in negligence. If you can prove negligence in court, that contract/EULA/whatever isn't worth crap to Sony.

Re:EULA

[ledow]

And almost certainly followed by the wording "this does not affect your statutory rights."

I can get people to sign a contract stating that if I murder them, I can't be sued. Doesn't mean it's legally enforceable.

Re:EULA

[master811]

Except that EULAs have never been proven in court or otherwise and as such, mean nothing.

Re:EULA

[protektor]

BZZZ! Wrong and thank you for playing. If you need an example for the US where a EULA was enforced by the courts, look no further than the BNETD vs. Vivendi/Blizzard Entertainment case.

http://www.eff.org/cases/blizzard-v-bnetd

There are links there to all the court filings and the appealed case. The EULA was argued by Vivendi as enforceable and as preventing BNETD from doing what they did.

Re:EULA

[master811]

Whether they'd get away with that in the EU is another matter entirely. I'm not surprised at the outcome in the US though.

Re:EULA

[Anonymous Coward]

"Except that EULAs have never been proven in court"

FFS, you know the implication here is U.S. court, no? This must be the ninth time on Slashdot I've read those exact words, only to see the person fall back to EU court afterwards.

Re:EULA

[BillX]

Sadly, what you said is 20% funny and 80% true. But regardless of what claims (some of which may be invalid and unenforceable, depending on where you live) are made in the EULA or what disclaimers are presented in the warranty statement, some of the recent Sony crap may be actionable if the unit is still under warranty. For example, there are implied warranties of merchantability and fitness for purpose, which in most US states cannot be disclaimed. Somewhat confusingly, a merchantable good is one which is fit for the (ordinary) purpose for which it is sold, and conforms to customary expectations for this good or class of goods. For example, it is a customary expectation that a car sold by a dealership is street-legal, or that a device sold as a video game console plays video games. Firmware lockouts that render the device as-sold unable to play some games sold as compatible would likely run afoul of this.

Likewise, the warranty of "fitness for a particular purpose" (sometimes just called fitness for purpose) warrants the good as fit for a particular purpose, known to the seller, that the buyer intends to use it for, even if it is not the primary or customary use of this good. Sony may be considered "aware" of buyers' use of the console for running Linux by virtue of product packaging an manuals which specifically mention this use, even if the unit is primarily sold as a "video game console".

It's all about hurting Sony

[shrykk]

A prediction: there will be some settlement, where the "victims" can claim $10 in coupons for discounted games, but the lawyers will make a few hundred thousand or a million.

That's a shame, but it's about the only way we have to hit Sony in the pocket for their bizarre anti-customer actions.

I was seriously thinking about buying a PS3

[va.va_va.va]

But now, I might as well upgrade my desktop PC with a new AMD processor (screw you Intel will your ever changing sockets) and motherboard. Yes, I'll be missing out on some games but I barely have time to play the ones I already have.

Re:I was seriously thinking about buying a PS3

[MemoryDragon]

You might as well just replace your aging graphics card, way cheaper and the speed boost you will get is way better...
Heck even an 80$ NVidia card beats the pants out of any PS3 nowadays.

Re:I was seriously thinking about buying a PS3

[MikeBabcock]

Of course, an $80 NVidia card now doesn't beat the pants off the PS3 I've had for years for less than the cost of that card then.

That NVidia card also isn't a network A/V playback system with a firmware upgradeable Blu-ray player.

Those of us who bought original PS3s got plenty for our investment, OtherOS or not.
Those who buy new PS3s will get plenty for their investment as well, OtherOS or not.

Neither compares to a simple graphics card.

Re:I was seriously thinking about buying a PS3

[robkore]

But now, I might as well upgrade my desktop PC with a new AMD processor (screw you Intel will your ever changing sockets) and motherboard.
Yes, I'll be missing out on some games but I barely have time to play the ones I already have.

Well, assuming you were planning on buying a new PS3, you wouldn't have had the Other OS option anyway, as I don't believe this was ever supported on the new PS3 slim. It's still a dick move by Sony to take it away on the old fat PS3s, so if you're changing your mind just to stick it to the man, then more power to you.

Re:I was seriously thinking about buying a PS3

[MemoryDragon]

Of course, an $80 NVidia card now doesn't beat the pants off the PS3 I've had for years for less than the cost of that card then.

That NVidia card also isn't a network A/V playback system with a firmware upgradeable Blu-ray player.

Those of us who bought original PS3s got plenty for our investment, OtherOS or not.
Those who buy new PS3s will get plenty for their investment as well, OtherOS or not.

Neither compares to a simple graphics card.

The network AV system comes with your operating system (windows 7 that is), the cost now is
PS3 300$, upgrading your old PC 80$, graphics about 5-6times as fast as on the aging PS3.
UPnP comes with Windows for free (or for the cost of a UPnP Servcer software)
Games 20% less usually also hitting the bargain bin earlier.

Re:I was seriously thinking about buying a PS3

[geekoid]

Yes, buying a new mother board and processor sure beat changing sockets.

Enjoy your louder system.

Re:I was seriously thinking about buying a PS3

[MikeBabcock]

Your reply didn't deal with my point very well, but I understand where you think you're coming from.

You're assuming that someone's general purpose PC already exists and is capable of being upgraded to a modern GPU (not always true, either because of slots, heat or PSU reasons). You're also assuming their existing CPU is sufficient to run the games in question. You're also assuming that they don't need the PC in question for secondary purposes while using the gaming system.

In my case, my wife or daughter is often on the PC while I use the PS3. Upgrading my GPU wouldn't help me game, I'd need a second computer instead.

Even if I'd bought a modern PC at the same time as my PS3 (launch + 3 months), it would be nowhere near up to snuff for playing modern games at the speed the PS3 does right now, nor would it handle Blu-ray or other HD video playback.

Remember, the PS3 can play or stream HD AVC/DivX at 60fps without a problem. Its also being firmware upgraded to play 3D Bluray movies this summer.

Add a BD-ROM to your GPU costs and a new CPU and heatsinks, and the much higher RAM requirements for less efficient PC ports of games and you're getting closer to a fair comparison. You'll be over $300 by then.

Re:I was seriously thinking about buying a PS3

[Anonymous Coward]

I feel bad for anyone who buys a slim PS3. I specifically sought a 60gb ps3, and I'm damn glad I did. Lots of USB ports, multi-card reader, hardware based PS2 emulation, Other OS option [not updating FW], and who knows what else the poor slim slubs don't get. Let me guess, a 120gb HDD for them? Oo, that's an extra 50 cents I'd have to invest.

While we're at it...

[Bones3D_mac]

... can we add backward compatibilty to the list? I really want to replace my PS2 without having to re-buy my entire PS2 library.

Re:While we're at it...

[Imrik]

Unfortunately no, the PS2 emulation is hardware and works as advertised for each generation of PS3. (with each generation advertising less and offering less)

Re:They perpetrated on me!

[gimmebeer]

Troll? Seriously? It's was a joke... /. needs more coffee this morning.

Wrong

[r_jensen11]

Just because you don't use the product as it was advertised doesn't mean that what Sony did is legal or morally responsible. They touted the feature of Other OS as one of the main benefits of getting a PS3 instead of XBox360 or Wii. This goes beyond the typical embellishments that occur during marketing. They explicitly offered a product which can do X, Y, and Z. Post upgrade, the product can only do X & Y, or Z.

Again, Sony made an explicit and material effort to sell the PS3 with the combination of BluRay player and Other OS feature. Afterwards, Sony forces consumers to choose between the two features, thus no combination.

Re:So what?

[L4t3r4lu5]

Ladies and gentlemen, May I present to you a prime example of Motron's Fork

The choice is slightly different, though. Here we have "Lose Other OS functionality" or "Lose ability to use PSN and play any new games which require the firmware upgrade (you can bet that they all do)."

Regarding the modded down comment above about "hyperbole inherent in the freetard system" (nice butchery of Monty Python, cockfungus) My PC runs Linux, I game using WINE. A happy freetard is me!

No Linux = more attepts at homebrew?

[JavaBear]

One thought that keep popping up in my mind.
Is the ability to run Linux the main reason why the PS3 haven't been broken for so long, as people wanting to play with homebrew could be satisfied with the Linux ability?

If so, won't that mean that with Other OS gone, that enthusiasts will do their very best to crack that machine open any which way they can to enable homebrew, this time with the goal being full access?

Re:No Linux = more attepts at homebrew?

[marcansoft]

Is the ability to run Linux the main reason why the PS3 haven't been broken for so long, as people wanting to play with homebrew could be satisfied with the Linux ability?

Yes (slightly outdated).

If so, won't that mean that with Other OS gone, that enthusiasts will do their very best to crack that machine open any which way they can to enable homebrew, this time with the goal being full access?

Yes, and piracy advocates will come out with a piracy tool shortly after it is completely broken.

Yes, Sony is shooting itself in the foot bigtime.

Re:No Linux = more attepts at homebrew?

[Mad Leper]

In short, no. The OtherOS capability was pretty much useless for much else than tinkering around or running some pretty specific Cell applications. The majority of OtherOS users installed some flavour of Linux and used it to either rip Blu-ray movies or make repeated failed ateempts to pirate PS3 games. Homebrew was pretty much non-existant.

Enthusiasts/hackers were unable to make anything more than a dent in the PS3 security (Geohots shameless self promotion aside), and once the OtherOS option was removed there is literally NO method remaining to crack the system.

Not buying a PS3 now...

[archmcd]

I was going to purchase a PS3 when they first released it because I was excited about the prospect of replacing my PS2 without losing my PS2 game library. But the launch price was just too damn high that I couldn't justify spending the money. Soon they lowered the price points just a little, but they discontinued hardware support for backwards compatibility. Since then they have continued to make their product worse without bringing the price down. They consistently remove features from their product line while their competitors add features and lower prices. I bought a Nintendo Wii when it first came out, because Nintendo figured out innovative concepts, reasonable launch pricing and not alienating their existing customer base by providing full backwards compatibility for everybody from day 1. Since I bought my Wii, Nintendo has continually added features (even unintended features, such as allowing me to install custom software on my Wii) that increase the value of my product.

Re:Not buying a PS3 now...

[Anonymous Coward]

That is clearly bullshit.

The PS3 has dropped in price from $800 to $150, while you can replace your PS2 for $80.

No matter how many features are added to a Wii, its still just a gamecube with motion controllers. People buy Wii for the same reason they buy iphones - the masses like shiny crap that is easy to use; even if it doesn't do much when compared to every competitor on the market. Price is less of an issue.

Re:Not buying a PS3 now...

[Gizzmonic]

Since then they have continued to make their product worse without bringing the price down.

No, the price has gone down. That $300 Slim PS3 can't play SACDs, PS2 games, or run OtherOS. In every other way, it is the same or better than the $600 fat PS3. Lower power consumption and support for bitstreaming HD audio are 2 features that have been added.

Re:Not buying a PS3 now...

[VGPowerlord]

The PS3 has dropped in price from $800 to $150, while you can replace your PS2 for $80.

I don't know what currency you're using, but in US Dollars, that should read:
"The PS3 has dropped in price from $600 to $300, while you can replace your PS2 for $100."

Re:Not buying a PS3 now...

[archmcd]

To me, the $300 slim is not the same product as the 60Gb fat that had a hardware emotion engine, and the $300 model is the lowest spec'ed model they currently produce. But regardless of whether or not the product meets my requirements (it does not), $300 is still significantly higher than their competitor's products (Nintendo & Microsoft price points are currently $199). Also, lower power consumption is not a selling point for me. All that means is Sony is using fewer/smaller/cheaper components and brought their manufacturing cost down without making a correlative reduction in MSRP. Furthermore, if Sony wasn't prepared to price their console more competitively, they're in the wrong market. Video game console manufacturers are not in the business to profit off of console sales. Their profits come from software licensing, direct software sales and content subscriptions. Nintendo understands this concept (although they are also the most experienced in this arena). If you make the consoles cheap enough to get one in every household, you'll naturally sell more software titles or subscription content for your console.

Re:Not buying a PS3 now...

[Gizzmonic]

To me, the $300 slim is not the same product as the 60Gb fat that had a hardware emotion engine, and the $300 model is the lowest spec'ed model they currently produce.

I don't understand your arbitrary distinctions. Before, you said they were removing features without lowering the price, which is clearly untrue (larger HDD, lower power consumption, ability to bitstream HD audio are added features). Lower power consumption is not a feature because you don't care about it? How solipsistic of you!

Video game console manufacturers are not in the business to profit off of console sales. Their profits come from software licensing, direct software sales and content subscriptions. Nintendo understands this concept

Utter garbage. Nintendo is the only console manufacturer that insists on profiting on the hardware from day one. That is one of the reasons why their stuff is so underpowered compared to their competitors. "Content subscriptions"...on a Nintendo console? No, you must be thinking of World of Warcraft. If you're thinking at all, which I kinda doubt after reading your dreck.

Re:Not buying a PS3 now...

[archmcd]

Lower power consumption is not a feature because you don't care about it?

Did I say it wasn't a feature because I didn't care about it? Go back and read my comment carefully before accusing me of not thinking, and referring to it as "dreck." No, wait, I'll save you the effort. I stated, "lower power consumption...means Sony is using fewer/smaller/cheaper components..." such as when they removed the emotion engine. Their goal wasn't to reduce power consumption, but to reduce manufacturing costs as Sony believes their in business to profit off of game consoles. And perhaps it was egocentric (not solipsistic) of me to think that because I don't view lower power consumption as a "feature", nobody else will either. Though in spite of you exposing my myopia on this matter, I somehow still doubt that's going to cause the slim to fly off the shelves. While I'm being egocentric, let me draw your attention to the selfish subject of this comment thread, which entitles me to be egocentric, "Not buying a PS3 now..."

http://playstation.joystiq.com/2007/02/08/playstation-3-manufacturing-costs-to-go-down-way-down/

Utter garbage. Nintendo is the only console manufacturer that insists on profiting on the hardware from day one. That is one of the reasons why their stuff is so underpowered compared to their competitors. "Content subscriptions"...on a Nintendo console? No, you must be thinking of World of Warcraft. If you're thinking at all, which I kinda doubt after reading your dreck.

You are correct, Nintendo is profiting from console sales with the Wii, as they have since at least 2006. http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/multimedia/display/20061215092033.html But that's a bonus to them and only a very small portion of their corporate sales, and that bonus only comes from decades of understanding the industry. But once again you entirely missed my point, being that profit in the console gaming industry is not in the console itself, it's in the sales of software and subscription content. You don't think Nintendo profits from subscription content? That's their bread and butter! They sell "Wii Points" which are as much legal tender as Monopoly money, then convince their customer base to exchange their "Wii Points" for intangibles such as downloaded channels, classic games, videos and new games without physical media. But I'm the one that's "not thinking." I suppose now you're going to try to correct the use of the term subscription in reference to Wii Channels, Wii Ware and Virtual Console content, seeing as these content purchases remain on the Nintendo console indefinitely without the need to make regular payments to maintain them. However, I used the term content subscription in a more general sense, so as to refer to each of the 3 major next-generation console systems ability to deliver content via a network connection. The OED says I may do so, as it defines subscription as "A contribution of money for a specified object." Additionally, apparently console hardware specs aren't what sell consoles. The Sony PS3 has been in production for longer than the Nintendo Wii, yet Nintendo has already sold 67 million consoles worldwide while Sony has sold just half that.

http://www.joystiq.com/2010/01/28/ds-sells-125-million-worldwide-wii-up-to-67-million/ http://www.scei.co.jp/corporate/data/bizdataps3_sale_e.html

Re:Not buying a PS3 now...

[Gizzmonic]

You are correct, Nintendo is profiting from console sales with the Wii, as they have since at least 2006. http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/multimedia/display/20061215092033.html But that's a bonus to them and only a very small portion of their corporate sales, and that bonus only comes from decades of understanding the industry.

"Just a bonus" to them, eh? That's why they are the only ones making money this generation, while PS3 and 360, which follow your philosophy of making little or no money on the hardware, are inflicting multi-million dollar losses on their parent companies. Show me some evidence that hardware sales on the Wii and DS are "just a bonus." I'll be eagerly waiting.

The OED says I may do so, as it defines subscription as "A contribution of money for a specified object."

You must have subscribed to some really good weed if you think that tortured definition of "subscription" would be recognized by a native English speaker, no matter what the hoary old OED says. I'm going to go get a subscription for groceries and I'll be waiting, if I don't decide to go down to the bar and renew my subscription to beer.

Re:Not buying a PS3 now...

[archmcd]

You want to continue arguing semantics, you're not worth my time and energy. Do your own fucking research.

What next?

[Issarlk]

Sure it's easy to laugh at "all of the five people impacted by the removal of Alternate OS". But if Sony wins this lawsuit, what would keep them from removing more features? Obviously they would never remove core features like "playing video games" (although it would be barelly noticable with the number of game available on PS3). But could Blu ray movies playing be removed? For example, to get some of their consumers into some hypothetical pay per view service they'd offer?

I don't get it

[GF678]

It's so simple for Sony at this point on what to do - release a firmware update which puts the Other OS functionality back and all this will go away quite quickly. Is its removal worth the legal expense/PR?

Re:I don't get it

[DryGrian]

Here's hoping. I have a PS3 I bought secondhand last year. I don't play games online at all, due to crappy latency inherent to rural satellite internet. I also have not installed Linux on it yet, although I downloaded a Yellow Dog .iso a while back. I haven't bought a new game in a long time, I have one or two for every genre I enjoy and I'm happy with them. What exactly are you unable to do without the latest firmware, other than connect to PSN or play the latest games? I'm considering installing Linux and hoping Sony rethinks it's decision.

But adoption contract are under state laws that ov

[Joe The Dragon]

But adoption contract are under state laws that over ride any thing in there that takes away from that.

This is what is wrong with the world

[((hristopher _-*-_-*]

A company that makes improvement after improvement on thier product, over and above the initial specifications by a country mile, then they remove one tiny item used by less than %0.01 of users they get taken to court with a class action????

What a wast of public money tying up a court room.

Re:This is what is wrong with the world

[((hristopher _-*-_-*]

Flamebait... Sigh @ mods.

Define Irony...

[cjjjer]

All of the people who are bitching about the removal of the "Other OS" feature and how much they hate Sony now will be lined up to buy the PS4.

Re:Define Irony...

[Anonymous Coward]

Irony? How about the inability to play my new Avatar blu ray disc, because the firmware has to be updated for the new BD+ encryption. If I don't want to lose a function I've paid for "OtherOS", I can't update the firmware, yet because I can't update the firmware, I can't play the new blu ray discs either. Ironically, I have to either rip, or download a rip, of the movie, in order to play it back on a different media player. As I recall, the "security" update was designed to address "piracy", wasn't it?

Just don't buy a PS3, and don't buy Sony.

[mattr]

Just don't buy a PS3, and don't buy Sony.

The message is simple. After the root kit and this, it is clear. Sony expects you to pay them money while they slap you in the face, saying F U.

Re:Just don't buy a PS3, and don't buy Sony.

[geekoid]

Instead of ignoring the problem, why don't we deal with it and send a signal to Sony? It also sends a signal to other companies. Just not buying something doesn't tell anyone why. It is a very poor passive aggressive technique.

Re:Just don't buy a PS3, and don't buy Sony.

[G00F]

The answer is both.

Sue them into not breaking what they sold and to stop buying their products. Only after they have hurt enough will they build good products and good practices.

Re:Just don't buy a PS3, and don't buy Sony.

[betterunixthanunix]

Except that the number of people who even understand the issue here is relatively small, compared to the number of people who will just buy a PS4 and a new Sony TV because they are new, shiny, and cool.

Just sell the damn thing

[Xanlexian]

"Other OS" WAS my primary reason of purchasing a PS3 about a year ago. Didn't own a single game, and owned just one Blu-Ray movie.

I just sold the damn thing on Craigslist. Didn't make all of my money back (of course), but enough to dump a little extra money in my amateur radio hobby.

Like everybody else here -- I really despise Sony for all they've done over the years. But, they do make some good stuff I suppose. Got an MRI a month ago and noticed "Sony" labels on various pieces of equipment in the 'control room'.

I'm not an audiophile in the slightest (I can't tell the difference in MP3, FLAC, etc... -- everything above 128 bitrate sounds exactly the same to me) but I still like their headphones.

(skip forward a few minutes) Actually, my headphones are Phillips, not Sony...

Off Topic Related Question

[fuzznutz]

Since clearly, American Standard English and The Queen's English have a common ancestor, does anyone know when/why the spelling differences evolved? I understand that automobile words may have been coined after the split, but there are lots of z/s spelling differences that should not have.

And by the way, you Brits bastardized perfectly good Germanic and French to invent this mutt of a language that we all speak. ;-)

Re:Off Topic Related Question

[HTH NE1]

Since clearly, American Standard English and The Queen's English have a common ancestor, does anyone know when/why the spelling differences evolved?

While it would be handy to call it the Galapagos effect, it didn't evolve. It's rooted in the nationalism of one man: Noah Webster. His first attempt was too overreaching, even changing "tongue" (which many misspell today as "tounge" as if to rhyme with "lounge") to "tung", which didn't take.

Re:Off Topic Related Question

[c 0xFF]

Languages evolve just like species: create some sort of division (a big ocean will do the trick quite nicely) and differences will emerge.

One significant factor is that spelling has only been standardized rather recently. One side just happened to pick one spelling while the other side picked a different one.

And lastly, I think the most significant factor of all is pig-headed stubbornness. Both sides think that theirs is correct, when in reality it's all ambiguous anyway. That prevents the spellings from merging, even for relatively new terms like tire/tyre

Yay, a $5-off vouher for PS3 games and accessories

[Anonymous Coward]

Awesome. So as a punishment for Sony, anyone who bought a pre-slim PS3 will get a $5 voucher good towards the purchase of PS3 games or accessories. Sony will totally learn their lesson!

Then Sony will die because they aren't competing..

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry... but your "Conclusion" of teaching Sony a lesson will NOT be a barebones unit. :D

Nobody buys games from Companies that act like Nazi's.... not matter how colorful their company logo is.

Other OS wasn't available on Launch PS3s

[zepo1a]

I may be mis-remembering, but at PS3 Launch OtherOS support was not in the Firmware yet (1.3 or 1.5 something), OtherOS came to the firmware later...1.6 something? So they could say they added a feature then took it away until the date they started shipping the systems supporting OtherOS out of the box. Or maybe it was support for OtherOS Linux other than Yellowdog that was added later. I forget. I use Other OS, haven't updated yet and the DNS hack seems to not work anymore to get on PSN.

Re:Missing the point

[heehoss]

I think this sets a terrible precedence because while Sony may have removed a generally disused feature by the majority of PS3 owners, they added a HELL of a lot more free features to the PS3 since release.

You're missing the point, though. The point is, Sony should NOT be allowed to sell a device with Feature X, and then take it away. Sony should be praised for adding a lot of new features; that's great. What they shouldn't do is take away functionality that was included at the time of sale. And a full refund isn't even enough; what about all the time that is wasted by a PS3 owner who DID use the Other OS feature? Now they have to take the time to research what happened to the feature, why it was removed, if they can get it back, try to sell or return the PS3, etc. etc.

What if my PS3 was purchased with reward points?

[Bling316]

I might be in a unique situation and am not sure if any of these laws apply. I got my PS3 with Airmiles*, so I really have no receipt of purchase. Would I have to discuss this with Airmiles or with Sony? Anybody?

Damages of 45 Billion?

[PAjamian]

From this article SONY sold 23.8 million consoles by June 30, 2009, I'll give a conservative estimate of another 1.2 million consoles sold by the end of the class inclusion date (end of March, I think), so 25 million consoles sales can be included in the class (I think it's a bit more but I'm being conservative here).multiply by the purchase price of $599 (we'll say $600) and you get 15 billion dollars in damages (yess that's billion with a "B".

From what I understand, fraud is alleged in the complaint as well. SONY originally advertised the Other OS feature and many people purchased a PS3 over a lower priced xbox 360 or wii because of the reasonable expectation that Other OS would continue to be available for the life of the console. This initial representation and advertisement of the Other OS feature was false and therefore a fraudulent means of selling additional consoles. From what I understand fraud is in many circumstances punishable by treble damages, so we'll triple the 15 billion in damages and SONY could end up compensating consumers for a whopping 45 BILLION dollars!

I was wondering the same thing.

[Anonymous Coward]

I bought my PS3 on eBay in January, after several hours of research to make sure I was buying a model that had PS2 backwards compatibility and "Other OS". I've also spent somewhere between $50-100 on games from PSN. So I can keep Other OS and play my games if I stay offline, which isn't a huge deal. That is, unless the HD craps out. Then I either lose Other OS or the games that I would have to download again.

I just dug out the box mine arrived in and although I can't find any reference to Other OS on the box, in no fewer than three places it states, "This product has limited backward compatibility with PlayStation and PlayStation2 format software. Many Playstation and PlayStation2 format software titles operate, but full compatibility is not guaranteed. Updating the system software may improve compatibility." (emphasis mine)

*chokes on irony*

F**k you very much, Sony.

Re:I was wondering the same thing.

[Raxxon]

Yeah, I bought mine last year (not sure on the date, but it seems like not too long after BlazBlue came out) after hunting through various GameStop shops and the like. I want the BC for what's left of my PS2 games (Had the PS2 itself stolen at a convention) and I wanted to be able to run Linux on it so I could use it as a brute force machine (big number crunching handed off to it from one of my other systems when necessary. Distributed Compile is loads of fun).

Now I can't get access to DLC for games I've bought and games I have on reserve (Rock Band: Greenday) and I have to worry that games I have coming in I'll have to return and demand full refunds for given that I will reject the EULA for the coerced upgrade...

And the only people to smile

[Stan92057]

And the only people to smile after all is said and done is the Lawyers. Everyone else will get a $5.00 coupon.

Tax evasion

[Xian97]

Didn't Sony get a tax break in Europe because they were able to claim that the PS3 was a computer because of the Other OS functionality? The tax rate on a console was higher than a computer.

http://kotaku.com/179245/why-the-ps3-is-a-computer-sony-dodges-euro-tax-men

Re:Tax evasion

[Anonymous Coward]

Shouldn't that reduced functionality then imply that Sony should pay in full?

Quite.

[HTH NE1]

I found your post quiet amusing.

If you're going to drop the -ly from the adverb, you need to add a hyphen: "quiet-amusing". And ne'er the 'twain shall meet.

Would this work for backwards compatibility too??

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder if someone could do the same for the removal of the ability to play PS2 games on the PS3. The hardware emulator chip being removed, probably not.. but the software emulation maybe. Since they did advertise at the beginning that the PS3 was backwards compatible and would play PS1 and PS2 games. They also still use the advertising slogan "It's only does everything." and I don't see in small print Other OS and Backwards Compatibility not applicable!

what about the US military?

[boniggy]

Weren't they using the "Other OS" feature for, i belive, radar purposes? So i guess the Military has a bunch of bricks lying around now... get them to complain and shit will happen.

Class action is not the answer

[KillaGouge]

As I've stated previously. Class Action suites are not going to hurt Sony in the long run, and will only serve to make lawyers richer. Make a complaint to the Better Business Bureau, then contact your State Attorney General.

Explain to them you paid $600 to Sony Computer Entertainment of America for a machine that was advertised with the ability to install an alternative operating system, play games, and access an online marketplace. Then a few years later, they gave you the option to either continue to use the alternate operating system, or to play games and access the online marketplace, but NOT both at the same time. Then explain that they still advertise the ability to do all 3 at the same time, but in reality you cannot, and you weren't given a refund for loosing out on features you paid for at the time of sale.

Many State Attorney Generals will eat this kind of thing up, they were elected by people, so if they don't listen to people, their career will be over. Also, it will get their name in the public light in other states once media outlets pick up on the story.


Here is my sample BBB complaint.

"The Playstation 3 console was advertised and is continued to advertise it ability to install Linux and an "Other O/S". In a recent firmware update to the Playstation 3, this feature was removed from consoles after purchase, if the update is applied. If a user decided to not apply the update, they are forbidden from logging into the "Playstation Network". In the "Playstation Network", users can spend money on games, if the player does not log into the "Playstation Network" they cannot access content they have paid for. This leaves users with the choice of using an advertised feature they paid for, or using content they paid for. There is no option to do both."

I listed my desired resolution as "I am looking for Sony Computer Entertainment of America to either reinstate the "Other O/S" feature, or provide a partial refund for the features removed."

WTF

[Anonymous Coward]

That guys probably some N00B that is scared of installing another OS

Sony screwed themselves

[protektor]

I was finally thinking about getting a PS3 now that they have worked out most of the kinks and the price has come down. I thought it might be nice to use it to play around with Linux and run my old playstation games on and not need the other systems hooked up. Also functioning as an A/V system would have been nice. But forget it now. I can't play around with Linux. I would have to be very careful and select a specific model out of what....6-8 different ones, in order to play my older PS1 and PS2 games. Not to mention which media cards are supported depends on which model you get. Forget it.

At least Microsoft got their console a little better/right. They really only have 2 different consoles....1 with HDMI and 1 without. The other models are just what size removable hard drive do you want with it. Doesn't matter which console you buy you can make any of the consoles in to the others with a user replaceable/installable upgraded hard drive that just snaps into place with no tools or expertise needed. The software and the features are the same on all of the Microsoft consoles (XBox 360).

The only features that I have seen that I care about that the PS3 has over XBox 360 is:
1....Ability to run Linux without a hack
2....Ability to play MKV files natively (XBox 360 can do this now with the add-on from Divx via Media Center Extender)

Seems to me that Sony has really shot themselves in the foot with all this here is a great feature....ooops shit never mind we are taking it away. I would rather have XBox 360 now. First they removed PS2 compatibility, now they remove Linux compatibility. And yes both were advertised to me...because I never bought a PS3 but I knew and saw on Sony's web site information pushing both PS2 and Linux as features and reasons to buy a PS3. So yes Sony did advertise those things at least on their web sites to me, so that would count as Ads.

Sony has turned into one of the worst companies to deal with in the last 5 years or so.

At which point the free online account goes away.

[DoctorFrog]

Don't say the precedent wasn't staring you in the face.

I'm sure I saw it in a TV ad too.

[DoctorFrog]

I'm not in the habit of recording every ad I watch so I can't prove it of course. However it was certainly well known that it would run Linux, and that was indeed the tipping point that got me to put the money down for the very first generation to hit the stores.

Douchebag, why'd you run from this?

[Anonymous Coward]

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1631698&cid=32039386

Bah, commie talk.

[mjwx]

You guys in the USA tend to reject any sort of government involvement in anything because you tend to only have regulations and laws which are biased towards the companies/corporations and give the consumers the short end of the stick.

That's commie talk. Consumer protections, pshaw. Next thing you'll want are rights for workers, 8 hour work days and a minimum wage. When does this slippery slope end, when women are permitted to vote?

Would the OTHER OS stay?

[dindi]

Excuse my ignorance, but I still do not know if I happen to have the "Other OS" (e.g. Linux) installed on the PS3, would the update wipe it out, or just remove it from units that do not run Linux.

Why isn't this treated like a denial of service?

[grooviant]

Why isn't this treated like the denial of service attack that it is?
Sony's action deserve criminal prosecution. Talk to your state attorney general.
Perhaps starting with "someone intruded on my system over the Internet, and removed my ability to boot Linux on my computer".
Have people forgotten the Sony Rootkit Fiasco of 2005 already? That one infected several hundred thousand PCs with spyware.
Now they're pissing on people that bought their "open platform" system

good yes way to go

[shnull]

and all that, maybe if i had a ps3 myself i'd use my website to unite ps3 owners, one court case won't turn sony around i'm afraid. But i don't, i have a 360, which seems to be perfectly adaptable, should i want to do that

seriously?

[Anonymous Coward]

what kind of idiot buys a PS3 for Linux?

not condoning what Sony did - I agree it's wrong and i feel like suing them just to get my own share, but seriously...

-.haNk

Re:seriously?

[VulpesFoxnik]

Because a Cell processor Rack costs in the 1000$ range for a single blade.

I bought mine from Circuit City :(

[Anonymous Coward]

The old circuit city that is no longer.

Ugh. Same atty as the "hot coffee" plaintiffs?

[strat]

I have to admit that I often throw class action notices in the trash. I'm not a litigious sort, but I really do believe there's a question of how "unconscionable" Sony's actions have been in this instance.

I, like other /. readers probably did, factored the OtherOS support into my initial purchase decision. Being forced into a Hobson's Choice of OtherOS or no PSN gaming is unacceptable, especially without notice. At a minimum, treating consumers more like business IT customers would go a long way, though I appreciate the costs of customer service.

My greater concern is with this first prospective plaintiff's choice of attorneys. Meiselman, Denlea, Packman, Carton & Eberz is a firm that touts its assistance to people who are suing Rockstar Games over the inclusion of the "hot coffee" sex scenes code. It's not at all clear to me that there was any "consumer fraud" evident in that particular episode.

I'm all for using the tools that are available, but I might consider a different firm on principle.

I returned my PS3 and got a WII instead

[Anonymous Coward]

I ordered a PS3 for XMas. figured it was a nice gift for the family, and thought it could also replace a few devices that we have in the TV rack today (Blueray player, PS2 and MythTV-frontend linux computer). Less boxes means less cabling and less remotes/accessories, less confusion in choosing AV-input on the TV and a much higher WAF=more sex.

After it was ordered I found out that none of those features were supported any more, so it would just add up to be just another additional device for the living room. I never opened the box, and returned it. The additional box is now a Nintendo WII instead. Not that the WII is perfect as it lacks HDMI output, but atleast it's backwards compatible with your GameCube cartridges and can also play older Nintendo64 & NES games=happier kids.

Just my €0.02

All that goof red douchebag does, is talk

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you have a degree in computer science or computer information systems Red Douchebag? No, of course not: You're yet another dime-a-dozen slashdot wannabe computer expert (not, not minus those degrees slacker. You're no expert by any means).

LOSER CRAPDOT crowd....

[Anonymous Coward]

F retard panzies....