Zen Coding

Download Squad has a quick review, with video, of Zen Coding (Google Code project page here), an extremely well-thought-out accelerator for anyone who codes HTML. Its syntax is CSS-like. Zen Coding has been around for a while — here's its author Sergey Chikuyonok's introduction in Smashing Magazine from last November — and it has now picked up support for more than a dozen editing environments, including Notepad++ and TextMate.

Comments

ZedSlashdotting

[Anonymous Coward]

FP*1 gets you "First Post"

Re:ZedSlashdotting

[Anonymous Coward]

Buy a clue dumbass. Here's a tip: moderators don't remove posts. Now go jack off to scat porn and leave the rest of us alone.

Re:ZedSlashdotting

[Anonymous Coward]

I prefer go to fist your momy and hear she squeak like a fat ass rat !

Vim?

[19061969]

There doesn't appear to be support for Vim but that already has another script called snipMate http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=2540

Re:Vim?

[vroom]

The official page doesn't mention vim support, but this script seems to match the functionality pretty closely http://mattn.github.com/zencoding-vim/

Check the TUTORIAL file in the repo to either turn on by filetype or globally

Re:Vim?

[ProdigyPuNk]

http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/ZenCoding ...and here it is for emacs. I've only seen this mentioned once or twice before, but it does make things quite a bit quicker. Work a lot better than my highlight/middle click copy/paste method ;p

Re:Vim?

[Anonymous Coward]

there's this one http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=2981 a clone

It has some portability advantages as it doesn't need python support

Re:Vim?

[denmarkw00t]

Minefield isn't respecting my mod+ choice - someone mod this man up to, say, Informative. ZenCoding.vim and vim.org is pretty spiffy.

Re:Vim?

[MagicM]

Actually, the official page does mention it, under "Unofficial implementations":

Vim (crossplatform) - Sparkup, Zen Coding for Vim

don't mock the Notepad++

[MoFoQ]

don't mock the Notepad++....it's very powerful, yet lightweight and unbloated.

I'm sure many slashdotters here also live by the "Notepad++ code"....

Re:don't mock the Notepad++

[wmbetts]

Vim > emacs > Notepad++ Let the war begin!

Re:don't mock the Notepad++

[davester666]

BBEdit FTW!

Re:don't mock the Notepad++

[Anonymous Coward]

BBEdit FTW!

It doesn't suck.

Re:don't mock the Notepad++

[gfody]

I prefer emEditor

Re:don't mock the Notepad++

[MoFoQ]

emEditor isn't open source let alone a $0 software

Re:don't mock the Notepad++

[EvanED]

Yeah, god forbid someone pay money for software they use and like.

Re:don't mock the Notepad++

[bennomatic]

I heart that program. Only thing I don't like about it is its updater. It sometimes complains taht there's a new version, and when I say, "OK, do the update", it doesn't work. I end up just icing the old one and downloading and installing the new one manually.

Re:don't mock the Notepad++

[Sulphur]

Is it also swift to anger?

Re:don't mock the Notepad++

[deniable]

Is that a recent thing? It seems to break all of the time now.

Re:don't mock the Notepad++

[bit01]

Yeah, god forbid someone pay money for software they use and like.

The price and license are important software characteristics whether you like it or not. A non-zero price can make it a practical impossibility to use in many organizations because of the paperwork involved. A license that doesn't allow you to install it where ever you need it, as you need it can also be a problem.

Since their are many free alternatives available in this category it's easily possible that the pay software is more trouble than it's worth even if it is otherwise superior, as the GPP was implicitly pointing out.

---

Like software, intellectual property law is a product of the mind, and can be anything we want it to be. Let's get it right.

Re:don't mock the Notepad++

[FredMenace]

I've noticed this too. Seems they broke something in the last couple of months.

Re:don't mock the Notepad++

[aBaldrich]

Who wants to pay for emEditor when butterflies are free?

Re:don't mock the Notepad++

[EvanED]

A non-zero price can make it a practical impossibility to use in many organizations because of the paperwork involved.

But not always, and definitely isn't at home.

Since their are many free alternatives available in this category it's easily possible that the pay software is more trouble than it's worth even if it is otherwise superior, as the GPP was implicitly pointing out.

And apparently that's not true for the poster who originally mentioned it.

Re:don't mock the Notepad++

[simoncpu was here]

Why did you include an OS in this editor war?

forgot to mention Notepad++'s line dup

[MoFoQ]

yea...Ctrl-D is very useful.
So is Ctrl-T
Tab and Shift-Tab for formatting.

Also like "nano" but I still prefer N++ since it's got syntax highlighting, support for tab-formatting AND tabs....etc.

Re:forgot to mention Notepad++'s line dup

[simcop2387]

GNU nano also has syntax highlighting, http://how-to.wikia.com/wiki/How_to_use_syntax_highlighting_with_the_GNU_nano_text_editor

Re:forgot to mention Notepad++'s line dup

[paperdiesel]

I'm a huge n++ fan as well. But one thing about it drives me absolutely nuts: The constant UPDATES. Don't get me wrong, I am grateful for free software that automatically updates itself. But it seems like every other time I open n++, it wants to update itself (which takes about 30 seconds start to finish). When I'm trying to do a quick edit to a file, the delay can be maddening.

I wish they would queue the updates to roll out once a week or something along those lines.

It's a specialized Lisp REPL

[istartedi]

It's a specialized Lisp REPL, or something like it.

Zen

[mindbrane]

Is there a better commentary on the west's general inability to grok zen than our endless bastardization of the word, zen?

Re:Zen

[istartedi]

Is there a better commentary on the west's general inability to grok zen than our endless bastardization of the word, zen?

ZEN is not a ticker symbol on the NYSE yet, so I guess not.

Re:Zen

[fractoid]

Is there a better commentary on the west's general inability to grok zen than our endless bastardization of the word, zen?

That's so ironic. *ducks*

Re:Zen

[chill]

The wise programmer is told about Tao and follows it. The average programmer is told about Tao and searches for it. The foolish programmer is told about Tao and laughs at it.

Re:Zen

[tpstigers]

The word zen means 'meditation'. Not real hard to grok. Nor is it difficult to understand why someone would consider coding to be a meditative process. Or were you actually referring to Zen?

Re:Zen

[Anonymous Coward]

Zen came to fruition the Tang Dynasty, at the height of development of Buddhism in China. It came as the highest practice, equivalent to Indian Prajnaparamita and Tibetan Dzogchen or Mahamudra traditions. The people who practiced it were those who already had great meditative ability and high capacity for understanding. Without a solid foundation, studying Zen (especially in the West) is simply nonsense. Without a background in the Buddhist sutras, you will likely just become confused or fool yourself into thinking it's just a mind game. From a real Zen master, Hsuan Hua:

The stupid transmit to the stupid,
One is teaching but neither has any idea.
The teacher goes to hell.
Where will the student end up?

Re:Zen

[Anonymous Coward]

Analysis error: deity assumed.

Re:Zen

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't Zen something you practice more than study? It seems that one of the problems with Zen these days is that many people approach it far to academically. That is not Zen. The less you know about Buddhist sutras, the better off you might actually be. Zen is for anyone.

Re:Zen

[Anonymous Coward]

grok zen

Spirituality is always a nebulous concept, on purpose, so the masters can always claim you need years of dedication to understand their "deep", "meaningful" concepts. Zen is no more meaningful than transubstantiation.

Re:Zen

[Anonymous Coward]

Zen has nothing to with "spirituality".

Re:Zen

[Hurricane78]

Actually, I agreed with you, in having been ignorant about anything but the romantic western views on “zen”.
So I read up on the actual philosophies behind it. And now I just as much won’t to come near zen, as I don’t want to come near any other religious insanities. (Please bear with me. Or at least read the points, down there where it’s marked bold. Thank you. :)

See, the goal of Zen, as far as I see, is so get into a “total zero” state. One that they call “enlightement”, but that I call “no different from being a vegetable”. The goal is to seek less and less, and basically just sit there and get into absolute nothingness. Because apparently you don’t exist anyway, as existence is a only defined trough changes (true, but somehow you’re not thinking four-dimensionally, Marty! ^^)
So reaching Zen, is the art of killing your existence, without killing your body.
How in hell is that an ideal? It’s sick. And I don’t say that in a derogatory fashion. I say that, because that is an actual form of repression that mentally ill people use.

See, when we experience horrible things that we can’t fight, we humans tend to go in one of two directions:
1. Build up an inner imaginary world, and explain the horrible experiences trough it, giving it all a sense, and making it “OK” again. In a very mild form, we all have done this. In a medium form, it’s called “religion” (Christian, Muslim, Jewish, etc). And in the worst form, it’s called by its medical name: schizophrenia.
2. Run away and make it so that that part of reality and you never ever come into contact with each other again. Ever. And if we can’t physically run away, we do so, be hiding away in our mind itself. Blocking us from reality. Of course we all also have done a bit of this once in a while. But we learned to face it again, and came back. But what Zen does, is generalizing it, and making it an ideal. Going as far as physically possible. And thereby removing themselves from our reality. Which is, to us, equal to stopping to exist.

So: No thanks. :)

Re:Zen

[Hognoxious]

Zen has nothing to with "spirituality".

Oh come on, try to make an effort.

It should be "Zen has nothing to do with spirituality and everything to do with spirituality" or "The student asked about the spirituailty in Zen. 'Lemons', replied the master, and the student was enlightened".

Re:Zen

[mike260]

Mod parent "+mu, Has Buddha Nature"

Re:Zen

[Anonymous Coward]

It's mysticism, so it doesn't matter how "serious" you try to be, It's still dressed-up psychobabble in the vein of similar New Age practices. Just because it's old, doesn't mean it should automatically get belief or respect (see also: Christianity, Islam).

Re:Zen

[jo42]

The Real Programmer knows it's all a bunch of BS and does whatever it takes to get the job done.

Re:Zen

[Anonymous Coward]

What deity are you assuming in your analysis?

Re:Zen

[Anonymous Coward]

For all INTENTS AND purposes, ...

There, fixed that for you

Re:Zen

[starfishsystems]

On the contrary. Just sit.

Zen is not about study. It's about practice.

Re:Zen

[Anonymous Coward]

Mods, if you have ever needed to mod someone up, it's parent.

Just sit. It really is that simple. Don't make it any harder than this. You don't need formal study, you don't need group sessions, you don't need anything complicated. Just sit.

Want to be happy (or at least happier)? Struggle with tension, anxiety, stress? Start with meditation. Today. Really.

It's not hard, let me show you: sit down in a comfortable spot. (try to) relax. Breath in, while counting 1.. 2.. 3.. 4.., breath out, counting 1.. 2.. 3.. 4.. And just repeat. Don't think about anything else, concentrate on breathing and counting.

If your mind wanders, acknowledge it, and return to breathing and counting. Repeat. Just sit. Stop when you get uncomfortable. There is no pre-set time for this. A few minutes is ok. Half an hour is ok. Longer is fine also. It doesn't matter.

Do this everyday, for at least a week. After a week, think about what you've accomplished. You will be less stressed. You are less frustrated. It works. Just sit. Once a day, if you can.

That's all. The key to a happier life is free and easy. You can do it. There is no skill involved, no barriers to take. Just sit. Really.

Re:Zen

[IICV]

Without a background in the Buddhist sutras, you will likely just become confused or fool yourself into thinking it's just a mind game.

So what you're saying is, it takes lots of training to convince yourself it's not just a mind game? Kind of like the Trinity, I suppose.

Re:Zen

[Leynos]

*Whoosh*

Re:Zen

[Anonymous Coward]

No, it really isn't.

Just meditate. That is all there is to it.

You don't need to know more of Buddism, or even know Buddism at all. There is no religion involved, you don't have to convert from any belief system you are accustomed to. If you are a Christian you can still meditate, there is nothing in Scripture that prevents you from meditating. You can be a meditating Christian, no problem.

Re:Zen

[bl8n8r]

> ZEN is not a ticker symbol on the NYSE yet, so I guess not.

Not so fast, have you checked with the USPTO?

Re:Zen

[aaandre]

Too trendy. Bastards will have their way with it and there's nothing you can do.

Re:Zen

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

Isn't the only reason it's still mysticism is because there currently isn't enough neurological evidence about what meditation does to the brain?

Re:Zen

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

Sorry, but its clear to me that you don't really know much about Zen.

Which books did you read? There is a very large conceptual/language barrier that causes many westerners to misinterpret or get confused over what Zen is about.

We can't expect everyone to know about all other concepts in the world, but surely we should know about such limitations and not spread FUD about something we aren't familiar with?

Re:Zen

[not2road]

You have more or less identified all the baggage that you could drop if you went past the reading and loose the assuming reactionary mind, and really opened up your mind and did some zazen. Some folks sit for a few decades before they even begin to understand what this is all about, don't assume you know because you read a few books.

Unlike your images of what zen and other wisdom traditions are, like grasping for feel-good religious experiences, or "running away from reality" as you claim zen is about, ect, it is really about dropping all that, no attainment, no coming and going, letting go of self-other, not limiting ourselves with fictitious and alienating boundaries.

Instead of "I think, therefore I am", perhaps you can try and not over-think so much, and therefor really BE HERE which helps to make one more engaged with the world, not less. Look at the midnight sky next time, when your mind quits down a bit, ask yourself if you really know who you are at bottom. You list many preconceived notions about what zen is. Perhaps you or someone you know got involved into a corrupted cult that gave you these ideas, it is good to be skeptical, stay away from the stink of zen. However, don't let one bad experience close you down for good.

Zen can be explained in thousands of ways, but all that would be paramount to trying to eat the fruits painted in a painting. You must practice yourself to find out, if possible with a good teacher, not someone to depend on or worship, but someone competent, to challenge you to go deeper into not-knowing. The founder of Buddhism was not some religious nut, just an ordinary person made of flesh and blood who saw we suffer a lot extra due to excessive clinging to notions of self and other, good and evil, life and death etc. This person prescribed a method just like a doctor that would help us get over our separateness, self centeredness and self absorbtion and realize we're in this together, multi-centered. So don't give up, try to inquire a bit further when you're ready.

Re:Zen

[fractoid]

Wow, I've been doing it all along and I thought I was just being lazy. Now I can tell people, "Shush, I'm Zen."

Re:Zen

[Mr. Slippery]

Zen came to fruition the Tang Dynasty, at the height of development of Buddhism in China.

I don't know what you mean by the "height of development"; certainly Buddhism was popular, but it was a version encrusted with superstition and metaphysics and nonsense about accumulating merit ("good karma") to get a better incarnation the next time around. In large part Ch'an developed as a corrective to this. The whole idea of "highest practice" is completely antithetical to the point of Zen: what you are doing right now this moment is your highest practice. Chop wood, carry water, write code, say stupid shit on /. -- this is IT.

Without a solid foundation, studying Zen (especially in the West) is simply nonsense.

One doesn't study Zen, one practices Zen. It's a matter of experience. Consider why the Sixth Patriarch tore up the sutras. (Supposedly. If he ever really existed.)

If anyone's interested, here's a quick sketch of the history of the two most significant teachers in the development of Zen, Bodhidharma and Hui Neng.

Re:Zen

[Ol Olsoc]

Which books did you read? ?

Lemon

The lesser known Zen Coding koans

[Anonymous Coward]

such as:

* What is the sound of one interrupt flapping?
* If an exception gets thrown in an operating system, and no one is around to catch it, does it make a sound?

Re:The lesser known Zen Coding koans

[Anonymous Coward]

I prefer my koans with ice cream.

Re:The lesser known Zen Coding koans

[symbolset]

* What is the sound of one interrupt flapping?

That would be this. Note: bad music.

* If an exception gets thrown in an operating system, and no one is around to catch it, does it make a sound?

No. An uncaught exception is ignored. Some other ill might come of it, but the throwing of an uncaught exception makes no sound itself because it hits only the absence of a try.

Re:The lesser known Zen Coding koans

[Anonymous Coward]

* If an exception gets thrown in an operating system, and no one is around to catch it, does it make a sound?

No. An uncaught exception is ignored.

Wrong. The answer is the same as for the original question: mu. An example of an uncaught exception making sound might be a performance degradation because of the exception being thrown.

Re:The lesser known Zen Coding koans

[jesset77]

I'm sorry, had speakers muted. Care to repeat?

Re:The lesser known Zen Coding koans

[Burz]

"does it make a sound?"

Not on Linux.

Re:The lesser known Zen Coding koans

[NoseyNick]

Do, or do not, there is no try.

Let's see...

[oljanx]

When I "write HTML" I'm actually writing HTML, CSS, JavaScript, PHP and SQL queries at the same time. On a good day. What the hell, why not add another syntax?

Re:Let's see...

[pavera]

Please keep your SQL and HTML separate. Don't punish those who will come after you.

Re:Let's see...

[EvanED]

What the hell, why not add another syntax?

To be fair, the syntax is very much like CSS. Further, it's not like it stays in the file for those who come after; it's just that the editor expands things for you.

Re:Let's see...

[Anonymous Coward]

To be fair, the syntax is very much like CSS

... with just enough subtle differences to bite you in the ass when you least expect it.

Re:Let's see...

[EvanED]

But again, with the instant feedback when it expands it for you, if that happens you can just hit undo and type it out yourself.

Re:Let's see...

[ari_j]

So it's kind of like Lisp macros, except that they are expanded in the source to make maintenance both more difficult and less efficient than just starting over from scratch.

Re:Let's see...

[EvanED]

So it's kind of like Lisp macros, except that they are expanded in the source to make maintenance both more difficult and less efficient than just starting over from scratch.

If that's your attitude, feel free to go ahead and use Markdown or ASCIIDoc or one of the other markup lanugages that you can compile to HTML.

However, this is something you can use in documents that are already HTML, need to be HTML because that's what your employer or customer demands, etc. without affecting the end result. Saying "let's replace HTML with something better" is not exactly a realistic proposition.

Re:Let's see...

[H0p313ss]

Please keep your SQL and HTML separate. Don't punish those who will come after you.

Now where's the fun in that?

Re:Let's see...

[eelke_klein]

Maybe you should make that, please keep your SQL, PHP, JavaScript, CSS and HTML seperate.

Re:Let's see...

[Anonymous Coward]

don't try that warning on a adobe coldfusion developer

Re:Let's see...

[__aasqbs9791]

They didn't actually say they were all in the same file.

Re:Let's see...

[slimjim8094]

How do you suggest separating PHP, HTML, and JS? Sure, the bulk of your code - especially reused libraries - should be separate but how do you use them without inline JS? And if you're using PHP, what are you using it for if not writing HTML (with the aforementioned JS)? Your PHP, even if it calls stored procedures, will also have SQL in it - and do you really need a stored proc for every one-shot thing? Repeated code, sure, but... And do you make one-shot CSS classes or blocks for everything?

Half of what you say is impossible, and the other half is not always practical. I appreciate the spirit... but let's not go overboard

Re:Let's see...

[hgavin]

how do you use them without inline JS?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unobtrusive_JavaScript

Re:Let's see...

[Anonymous Coward]

You're doing it wrong...
JS should be included via a script tag with an src attribute; there should be NO inline code if you have built your pages cleanly. Your event hooks should be entirely in the scripting code, using your selector engine and event handling/delegation libraries of choice (or do it all with direct calls if you're a masochist that likes lots of capability and browser detection blocks).
Your PHP code should have cleanly separated display files and business logic files; the former are templates, the latter are code.
Your SQL should be kept in a separate resource file, not inlined with your code.
If you're finding yourself making one-shot rule definitions in your CSS, then the site is not very well designed, and your headaches will multiply until it's fixed.
These are ideals. Sometimes there will be a little fudging in the interest of expediency, of course, but if you are doing it all the time... just let us know what you're working on so we can all avoid it in the future.

Re:Let's see...

[Hurricane78]

That’s what TypoScript is for. ;))

You could see them all as domain-specific languages. (Except for HTML and CSS, which are not programming languages at all.)
Semantics: HTML
Aesthetics: CSS
Logic: (3 layers)
    JavaScript - UI layer
    PHP - back end layer
    SQL - data layer

So, in a way it makes sense. (Except for TypoScript, which makes no fucking sense at all, since PHP already is a easy template language. [PHP = PHP Hypertext Preprocessor!])

Of course, after 10 years of webapp development experience, I stopped and went back to actual client/server software. You can just as well separate the semantics and aesthetics of those nowadays. But without having to have a different language for every separate layer of logic. :)

Re:Let's see...

[Hurricane78]

And keep your actual content out of any of those. (Or you will be punished with problems with translations and others. :)
I preferred to keep content in custom XML formats individualized for the actual content. But nowadays, I have my own lightweight binary (EBML-like) markup format, which, with a tag mapper information file or block, is just as easy, but (other than XML) very efficient.

Re:Let's see...

[FredMenace]

It is trivial to have not a singe line of Javascript in your HTML, other than the link to the external Javascript file.

See, for instance, http://api.jquery.com/category/events/ for a set of jQuery methods for attaching events, using css-like selectors. (Most of these methods are special cases of "bind".)

To avoid mixing HTML and PHP, you can use a templating engine like Smarty (http://www.smarty.net/crashcourse.php). (I prefer those that use a different syntax from regular PHP to help enforce the distinction.) I do understand that PHP was originally a templating language itself, at a time when most hard-core back-end logic might have been in C/C++ and the PHP was for gluing that to the markup. But now that PHP is used for that same back-end code, it makes sense to separate it out of the HTML, so front-end coders don't need to wade around in back-end logic, programmers don't need to worry about markup and presentation, and each file to edit is clear and understandable in itself, partly by consisting of a single language and sticking to a single task. (The template language is designed to be as simple as possible, and only has the limited capabilities necessary to include dynamic content - generated elsewhere - in HTML markup.)

At the least, SQL should be in a separate data-abstraction layer. That layer may also be in PHP, but at least it's a special-case set of code just for accessing the data store (partly so that it can be replaced with a different data store if needed, without affecting any other code). Many frameworks use an object-relational mapping layer so you don't need to touch SQL at all.

It's also pretty easy to keep CSS completely out of HTML, and if well-designed, the number of special cases to apply to single paragraphs can be very minimal.

Yes, it can seem like all this is a lot of trouble when you're starting out or working on a very simple project, but as a project grows, it can very quickly become unmanageably complex otherwise. These are all tools for managing complexity and scale so that medium-sized projects are easily workable and large-sized projects are possible at all.

Re:Let's see...

[loufoque]

It's not another syntax, it's basically CSS.

Re:Let's see...

[Gulthek]

Wow. Ok. I'm a web developer by trade, so let's break this down from lowest hanging fruit on up:

JS: separating JS from HTML is supremely trivial. Rather than enclosing your JS in js code, call out to a source file: . If you doing funky old school coding like using onload, replace that with a good JavaScript library and events (jQuery is my preferred flavor, but they're all good.)

PHP: think of it like this: there are essentially two key actions your PHP is responsible for: getting data and building a display of that data. Some part of your PHP code is dealing with the retrieval or generation of information based on the current state, stick that PHP in its own class or classes and call over to it when needed. Write template PHP with your HTML, e.g. just loops, variable tests, and very simple code that is only related to the current HTML view.

I'm not sure what you meant by one-shot CSS classes or blocks, but that sounds like you are justifying the use of inline styling. Separating the presentation from the content isn't just a good idea, it can really make your life easier when you need to go back and change something. If you have a lot of unique states, think about using multiple classes to construct them. HTML elements can have more than one, which is very handy: e.g.

Re:Let's see...

[frank_adrian314159]

I think you mean "Those who will punish will come after you".

Re:Let's see...

[Anonymous Coward]

Smack W3C until it allows me to validate HTML with custom attributes (woo find every field with the name "date", awesome example as long as you never need two dates in one form!) and/or creates cascading javascript sheets (this would be so awesome I'd jizz mah pants).

Then I'll stop inlining my javascript.

zen haikus

[mattwad]

Looks like an automated coding editor, will be nice to use with abbreviated languages like HAML and SASS

Re:zen haikus

[arth1]

So instead of writing HTML and CSS, you need to know this tool, plus HAML and SASS, and HTML and CSS.
That sure simplifies everything.
Unless you skip the whole "know" part, that is, in which case what you produce shouldn't be unleashed upon others -- you won't be able to troubleshoot it in any meaningful way, for one thing.

Not sheer genius

[MichaelSmith]

TFA shows how Zen lets you type in a terse message and have it expanded into a chunk of html code and describes it as sheer genius. Thats neat but I have nedit macros which do pretty much the same thing. They are time savers for sure.

But nothing which you couldn't do a thousand ways. With perl, awk or sed.

Re:Not sheer genius

[Anonymous Coward]

"Thats neat but I have nedit macros which do pretty much the same thing"

Maybe you could share those on Niki?

Re:Not sheer genius

[MichaelSmith]

I shall, though I don't think its anything new

Re:Not sheer genius

[Anonymous Coward]

Not sheer genius

Ponder the perspective on magic and technology from the classic quote. Now ponder on how revealing technology to those without it would appear when they know that it's not magic.

Re:Not sheer genius

[Anonymous Coward]

Vim-LaTeX (aka LaTeX-suite) has been doing this for ages....
http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=475

Re:Not sheer genius

[Anonymous Coward]

You forgot the C preprocessor.

Nice... oh, maybe not

[damianpeterson]

When I first started watching the video demonstration linked to from the project page I though "nice" but after a while of watching obscure string after obscure string I realise that I'm probably better off just trying to memorise HTML instead of HTML *and* whatever the hell this is.

Re:Nice... oh, maybe not

[Anonymous Coward]

If you're sure you can't use it, don't. It is, however, intended to be a time-saver. Any time-saver oriented at something that is already very easy takes a little time and effort to learn to use, then helps you speed up.

Zen Coding?

[i_frame]

In my case, Bluefish or Quanta Plus are more than enough, don't need to learn another syntax.

I nominate this for all-time...

[bcrowell]

...crappiest article ever to get frontpaged on slashdot.

It's a couple hundred words worth of "OMG!" with a code example.

Re:I nominate this for all-time...

[greg1104]

You should save your vote for when its dupe shows up in a couple of days.

Re:I nominate this for all-time...

[ari_j]

The real question is whether we should be assigning a handicap for article quality based on who posted it to the front page.

Re:I nominate this for all-time...

[Anonymous Coward]

Agreed. I though this was cool when I saw it elsewhere a few days ago... right up until I realized you were supposed to use this in your editor. What? As part of some client- or server-side HTML generation library, sure, this would be cool. But even when building pure static HTML sites I've never felt particularly constrained by having to type things out. Copy-n-paste, combined with regex search-and-replace, goes a long way.

Accelerator

[neoform]

an extremely well thought-out accelerator for anyone who codes HTML.

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

Re:Accelerator

[Bat Country]

an extremely well thought-out accelerator for anyone who codes HTML.

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

Actually, it means almost exactly that.

Here's the Emacs version

[patro]

Emacs users can find the relevant package here with screenshots and demonstration Youtube video.

Confirmed

[Anonymous Coward]

How to program the onboard computer of the Liberator

Not Zen.

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't understand what macros have to do with Zen Buddhism? If you haven't read a few of these sutras: Vajracchedika Prajnaparamita Sutra, Saptasatika Prajnaparamita Sutra, Lankavatara Sutra, Shurangama Sutra, Saddharma Pundarika Sutra, Avatamsaka Sutra, Platform Sutra, etc. You probably don't know much about Zen. And yes, I live in East Asia and talk to Zen Buddhist monks on a regular basis. It's Buddhism, not your hippie ideas about minimalism and exotic art.

for those ruby railers

[XaXXon]

I recommend sass and haml for doing css and html respectively.

http://haml-lang.com/

http://sass-lang.com/

Re:for those ruby railers

[InterBigs]

Even though they are different things I agree.. HAML is much easier to learn since it's compiled afterwards, so you're always working with your HAML code as opposed to Zen where your Zen code disappears as soon as you compile it to HTML once (which makes remembering how to do things pretty hard). I love HAML more than plain HTML and it makes Zen Coding completely unnecessary.

Re:for those ruby railers

[Anonymous Coward]

For PHP as well... though a bit less developed... http://code.google.com/p/phamlp/ Also for Yii... For Kohana PHP http://code.google.com/p/kophamlp/

Codes.... HTML... NOTEPAD?!

[Greyfox]

*head explodes*

Re:Codes.... HTML... NOTEPAD?!

[thisisntme]

Notepad++ != notepad

The master told me

[goombah99]

The master told me to mediate on the sound of one parenthesis closing. I am ashamed that I don't know what this means. Or was that his point.

Re:The master told me

[Bigos]

Learn the basics of Lisp and try again :-). When you use Emacs + slime it sounds like most wonderful symphony when you press right key chords.

Re:The master told me

[Anonymous Coward]

The master told me to mediate on the sound of one parenthesis closing. I am ashamed that I don't know what this means.

It means that you don't know the difference between "mediate" and "meditate".

Re:The master told me

[rolando2424]

FOO!

Re:The master told me

[K. S. Kyosuke]

The master told me to mediate on the sound of one parenthesis closing. I am ashamed that I don't know what this means. Or was that his point.

The sound of one parenthesis closing depends on which error WAV file does you editor play when it finds no opening parenthesis.

Re:The master told me

[lennier]

Mmm, stack underflow.

Sounds like a crispy crackling burning noise.

ZEN is traded on the London exchange

[symbolset]

link

Not Zen?

[Anonymous Coward]

How very Zen that is...

Why not go all the way?

[joost]

z0mg zen! As far as I am concerned it's a nice gimmick. If you are going to 'Zen' up your html, why not go all the way and switch to Haml? You actually code in this CSS-like syntax and let Haml compile it to html for you.

Sublimetext

[caubert]

I prefer Sublimetext on Windows computers. It's a free-shareware program that mimics TextMate almost fully. ZenCoding package is also available for SublimeText.

I like video tutorials with good D'n'B

[Anonymous Coward]

That's already compltley Zen to me. :)

It's not called "coding".

[El_Muerte_TDS]

Writing source code is called "programming", not "coding". Coding is converting readable text to some sort of encrypted text.

And for the observant reader, yes writing Perl source code can be both called programming and coding.

Re:It's not called "coding".

[Anonymous Coward]

"coding" is short for "writing computer code" and is in common use as a synonym for "programming".

Re:It's not called "coding".

[Anonymous Coward]

Since HTML isn't a programming language, writing HTML isn't coding. But thanks for playing, have a safe trip home!

Re:It's not called "coding".

[lpq]

But you didn't define the term "source code", nor make clear that "encrypted text" includes any code that is decipherable by the computer, directly, but may not be immediately decipherable to humans. Perl is hardly unique in it's ability to obscure underlying algorithms. I've seen plenty of obscure C and C++ code, and lets not even begin with assembler...that's encrypted to 99% of humans, by its design.

Programming -- the art of taking concepts and translating them to discreet machine-implementable concepts that can later (or perhaps at the same time) "coded" into a computer-understood language.

So writing code may be coding or may be programming, depending on whether or not you are writing from concept or from flow-charts.

Re:It's not called "coding".

[Bat Country]

A code is a system of rules that translates a body of information from one form to another. Say, for instance, markup to presentation.

You don't "code" HTML

[Viol8]

You code in java,C++,javascript, but HTML is a formatting language - you do not code in it because it isn't a coding language. I know it makes fluffy web page designers feel like their playing with the big boys to talk about "coding" in HTML but you might was well talk about "coding" .ini files.

Re:You don't "code" HTML

[IRoll11!s]

Stop being so pedantic or I will hack your internets.

Re:You don't "code" HTML

[Anonymous Coward]

The only reason I was able to continue to pursue this miserable experience we call life is the fact that I believed that by being paid to express ideas in a markup language like HTML I was intellectually and socially the equal of my colleagues in the next office who are paid to express theirs in a variety of Turing-complete languages.

Thankyou for tearing this, the final foundation, from underneath me. I am going outside now, and I may be some time.

Re:You don't "code" HTML

[nebulus4]

If it's acceptable to refer to HTML or CSS code as code then it's perfectly acceptable to say you code in HTML or CSS. And besides when I say I code in Java, C, etc. what I'm really saying is that I'm programming in those languages.

Re:You don't "code" HTML

[NecroPsyChroNauTron]

So what are you writing when writing HTML, and what shall I ask people to take a look at when I ask them to open a HTML document? "Open up that HTML document and take a look at the....stuff?"
"Code" is a pretty broad concept. Perhaps you should look at this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code
Any asshat can substitute letters for their corresponding number in the alphabet, but does that make it less of a "code"?
No. Sorry but I am not convinced and this merely strikes me the same as when people argue the term "hacking".
Some can't accept/understand that language evolves, while others merely just want a foothold to create a meaningless sense of superiority.

Which one are you?
Funny thing is, I agree with you somewhat, snd also find other peoples limited perspectives of technology slightly comical, but I'm not about to narrow the definition of a word just to spite them.
Also, I second nebulus4's comment below and think it's more acceptable to call what you're speaking of, programming, and the result, a program, but I guess that words not quite exclusive enough either...

And uhhhh.......big boys? Come on man, seriously. No tech job/expertise makes you one of the "big boys". Try protein shakes.

Re:You don't "code" HTML

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyone who talks about "coding" is pathetically trying to sound more impressive than they actually are.

Whether they're writing C#, HTML or even assembler.

Re:You don't "code" HTML

[Anonymous Coward]

Thats not true. When I'm done coding my response you'll regret you've ever said that!

Re:You don't "code" HTML

[Anonymous Coward]

[win.ini]
but=I am coding an ini file
you=insensitive clod!

Re:You don't "code" HTML

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd call it coding, I just wouldn't call it programming. Programming implies imparting methodical logic into something. Coding simply implies that you are putting codes down.
(HTML==code (aka 'markup') ) == true
(HTML==program) == false.

I would agree the verb coding describes activities that including programming.
I would disagree that the verb programming covers all activities described by 'coding'.

In much the same vein I wouldn't say 'hacking' covered all aspects of programming. True hacking is a higher art form than merely putting code in files that will execute to spec.

Re:You don't "code" HTML

[Anonymous Coward]

I would maybe respond to your pedantry with some of my own and argue that "coding" is entirely appropriate for HTML. Programmers tend to use coding and programming interchangeably, but I think they have distinct meanings. "Coding" is about converting between different ways of expressing something. Programming is about algorithms and task description. A person could legitimately encode the design of a webpage in a HyperText Markup Language. Likewise, I wouldn't frown on a technical writer who "programs" instructions manuals and procedures in plain English.

Re:You don't "code" HTML

[neoform]

Programmers don't consider CSS or HTML to be "code. It's markup.

You don't have any assignment or logic in HTML or CSS (unless you're talking about javascript).. therefore, it's not code.

Re:You don't "code" HTML

[Anonymous Coward]

I realize why every programmer would want to create distinctions between what they do (AKA "big boy" work) and what web designers do with HTML.
But I don't think the concept of "code" is limited to programming.

I consider coding to be creating something in a format that ultimately gets rendered, or decoded, into something else. Morse code would be a non-programming example.

I don't think a settings file (.ini) would fall within that definition, but I think HTML would count as "code" since it does get rendered into something else.

Re:You don't "code" HTML

[lennier]

I dunno - you look up a big telephone book of business practices, pick a cryptic utterance that matches your needs and is utterly obscure to everyone else in the industry, then tap it into a telegraphic keyboard - HTML sounds like coding to me!

Re:You don't "code" HTML

[lennier]

I'd call it coding, I just wouldn't call it programming. Programming implies imparting methodical logic into something.

What about declarative and functional languages? Would writing a one-line function definition in Haskell or a Prolog rule count as 'programming' by your definition? What about writing a bunch of data blocks in Lua? Or the same ones in JSON or YAML?

Does marking up data magically become 'programming' if you write a loop or do it in an imperative language, or should we focus more on whether it's done cleanly and done right?

Re:You don't "code" HTML

[NecroPsyChroNauTron]

No, it is code. I believe you mean to say "program". Programmers write programs. HTML/CSS writers do not.

Re:You don't "code" HTML

[neoform]

No, I don't, it's not code.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/code

Computers. the symbolic arrangement of statements or instructions in a computer program in which letters, digits, etc. are represented as binary numbers; the set of instructions in such a program: That program took 3000 lines of code. Compare ASCII, object code, source code.

There are no instructions or statements in HTML/CSS. It's not code.

Re:You don't "code" HTML

[nebulus4]

I was not referring to JavaScript and what you're saying might technically be correct, but... we should not forget that the language constantly evolves and definitions of yesterday could be expanded today.

• google results for "html markup": about 294,000
• google results for "html code": about 103,000,000

• google results for "css markup": about 26,300
• google results for "css code": about 773,000

and besides http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/markup Computing Dictionary markup definition (1995-03-30):

In computerised document preparation, a method of adding information to the text indicating the logical components of a document, or instructions for layout of the text on the page or other information which can be interpreted by some automatic system*.

and http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/code Computing Dictionary code definition (2000-04-08):

1. Instructions for a computer in some programming language, often machine language (machine code). The word "code" is often used to distinguish instructions from data*

* emphasis added

Re:You don't "code" HTML

[Bat Country]

Just because something you have written contains logic-related program code does not mean you have imparted logic into it. Even idiots can write code that works, if you've imparted logic into it, it works properly.

I'd argue that an intelligently crafted bit of HTML with elegantly cascading classes in CSS takes as much art as writing a device driver (and I've done both enough to know how to do either right.)

Writing HTML is not programming

[Viol8]

HTML is a formatting language, not a programming language

Re:Writing HTML is not programming

[El_Muerte_TDS]

Erm... right. But then it's still "writing" HTML and not "coding".

Re:Writing HTML is not programming

[Anonymous Coward]

HTML is a markup language, not a programming language

Fixed that for you.

So, you don't understand Zen.

[Kupfernigk]

I don't know what you have read, but you do not understand Zen. Satori is not a "total zero" state. It is what you experience when you suddenly realise that you have spent a whole day coding without distraction, that you have never been conscious of thinking about what you are doing, and the compiled program just works. Or when you realise that you have just driven from London to Birmingham (or your local equivalent) without ever thinking about it: it just happened. Satori is the state when you are "just doing", what programmers (and market traders) call being "in the groove". Zen training can help develop the mind to achieve this state.

Zen philosophy also has the principle of "nothing superfluous". You see something of this in the iPod, or an old Lotus sports car. No irrelevant decoration, no junk, just form fitting function as perfectly as possible.

Zen is not a religion; it is a way of life. Zen masters are famous for anti-religious statements, like the sermon that is said to have gone "What are the spiritual masters? The spiritual masters are a dirty toilet". You do not have to believe in and kind of God to follow Zen, but it helps if you can find an advisor who you relate to. Zen masters, like rabbis, will put off anyone who they think is not yet ready for teaching, or unsuited to their kind of teaching.

However, you show in your third paragraph that you don't have a clue what schizophrenia is either. My advice to you is to do the research, proper research, before posting bullshit. And until you start to overcome your childish and self-important prejudices, you are nowhere near ready even to approach Zen.

Re:So, you don't understand Zen.

[bpd1069]

mod up please

No it isn't

[Kupfernigk]

Programming includes elements of analysis, system design, algorithm specification, library selection, test methodology and all the other things you have to do to make a computer do what you want. Coding is the process of converting the results of all these specifications and decisions into something that can be compiled, by writing source code. Traditionally, they were done by quite different people (and the compilations and run done by a third group.) A lot of bad code results from design while coding. The functions should be clearly separated.

HTML Programmer

[Anonymous Coward]

You code in java,C++,javascript, but HTML is a formatting language - you do not code in it because it isn't a coding language. I know it makes fluffy web page designers feel like their playing with the big boys to talk about "coding" in HTML but you might was well talk about "coding" .ini files.

What is a .ini file? It sounds like complicated programming to me.

markup is crap.

[Anonymous Coward]

All of these accelerators just show how much *crap* all sgml derived notations really are.

Is there a point?

[JBL2]

Is it just me, or does anyone else have a hard time believing that anyone (that reads /.) spends THAT much time "coding" HTML, that dealing with a compressed format... which will surely go over well with one's colleagues... and is a good candidate for a code-obfuscation contest... would be useful?

Re:Is there a point?

[grumbel]

It's not a format, its just special syntax that you type into your editor that will get expanded to the full regular HTML. It's just there to save you typing, not replace .html files.

Re:Is there a point?

[inKubus]

Yeah, but my editor already has auto complete and macros to insert stuff. I've seen our designer at work use this, but as a developer, I wouldn't touch it. I'm generally just jamming stuff into an insert point anyway and let them handle the views.

Think of it as a history lesson

[Eil]

Those who do not learn vi are doomed to reimplement it. Poorly.

IrfanView Re:don't mock the Notepad++

[Anonymous Coward]

IrfanView Is one piece of non-game proprietary software I've recently bought a license for. My license allows me to use it in any context, even if I'm working for an organization (non-profit, goverment, school, private sector, anything). It's distributed as shareware and provides excellent lightweight image editing tools as well as strong support for camera RAW.

I've used it for years and finally paid for it (my bad). It's been such an excellent piece of software that the license i got was well worth it. Cost: $10EUR.

While not officially supported, it runs well under a base wine environment (though the installer needs some help).

Reverse Zen Notation (TM)

[PatPending]

The True Path To Enlightenment (TM) lies in using Reverse Zen Notation (TM):

So "div#page>div.logo+ul#navigation>li*5>a" becomes

a>5*li>ul#navigation+div.logo>div#page

Re:Reverse Zen Notation (TM)

[Anonymous Coward]

I would think reverse notation would be
a5*liul#navigation+div.logodiv#page

Re:Reverse Zen Notation (TM)

[Bat Country]

it'd be:
a5*ilnoitagivan#lu+ogol.videgap#vid

Re:this is now

[Anonymous Coward]

Corrected quotation, from the Great Master:

That was Zen; this is Tao.

And remember, the numbers you can count are not the real numbers.

Please don't do that

[Anonymous Coward]

Your statement does not make sense.

At least, I think it doesn't, but perhaps I miss some sort of reference to pop culture or something. I'm noted for that, not getting those references.

I stared at your comment for a long time and am (still, but it's wearing off) mesmerized by it. It holds some sort of spell over me. I'm not sure how and why. Must be severe cognitive dissonance or something. Or maybe I need to up my meds again.

Anyway, just thought I'd let you know. So you can refrain from it in the future. Or not, and cause me more weird times.

Re:Please don't do that

[Anonymous Coward]

http://xkcd.com/378/

Thank you

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank you for your reply.

full circle, yet again

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey - big surprise - HTML coding with CSS like syntax!!

Guess what: HTML is based off of SGML, which used a LISP-like language (scheme?) for stylesheets.

+1 for yet another wheel reinvention. I guess thats what we do though. yeah.

Mods

[Bat Country]

I know this is Slashdot, but since when is elitism considered "insight?"

A code is simply a system of rules that you use to translate one form of communication into another form. If that's all you're doing when you're programming, turn in your keyboard now. Writing HTML is coding but it is not programming. Programming is writing a program - a system of instructions which inform the computer how to perform a novel task. HTML is scripting however, even if the script is trivial - it says "Do what this says" to the interpreter.

If you are the sort of guy who tries to impress people by saying you're a "coder" you probably deserve the confusion you get. If you're a software developer, say you're a software developer. If you're a systems programmer, say you're a systems programmer. Don't try to redefine the word "code" to mean "only people who I consider my equals."