Why Windows 7 "Slate" Tablets Won't Happen

Thanks you... by Itninja · 2010-05-25 10:10 · Score: 5, Informative

...for linking to the 'print version' of the article. I wept a small tear of joy.

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Re:Thanks you... by Itninja · 2010-05-25 11:12 · Score: 2, Funny

Good point. I was just overcome with emotion after seeing it the print version linked.

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I judt got a nre Kinesis keybiartf so please excusr ant egregiou typos.
Re:Thanks you... by Anonymous Coward · 2010-05-25 11:43 · Score: 4, Interesting

I don't get it. How does the ipad indicate that a windows 7 tablet won't work? The fact that there is a market for a handheld web appliance doesn't obviate the existence of a market for a windows 7 tablet. Especially if Microsoft is able to pull in all the consumer class features across their product lines (nice integration of media/content from Xbox/Xbox 360 to desktop to laptop to tablet to phone.) Right now Apple is riding easy, but once someone comes along who can compete across the board, Apple's "just barely enough" attitude* will start to hurt.
* Examples:
- iPad only able to support nine pages in Safari and when you touch a link that opens a new page it drops one of your existing pages without any user interaction. This is bad behavior.
- itunes choking on iTunMOVI atom metadata that iPhone/iPad/AppleTV have no problem with.
- iPod mode of iPhone having bizarre restrictions on rotated video playback. A movie played directly cannot be rotated, but if you add it to an on the go playlist and play the playlist, you can then rotate the video.
- The sleek looking apple remote that requires the hand-eye coordination of a Street Fighter II junkie in order to operate (select-up-up for chapter selection, wtf?)
- Apple's total mediation of content onto the devices and how you interact with them. It would be nice if you could have multiple libraries, both public and non-public across your iTunes environment.
Re:Thanks you... by Alphathon · 2010-05-25 12:30 · Score: 4, Insightful

Agreed; there seems to be a false assumption here, i.e. the is iPad is marketable/sells/works therefore Windows 7 cannot be good on a tablet. This does not follow at all. Unless the iPad has Win7 on it, it CANNOT demonstrate that Win7 is bad for tablets, only that it's OS does work on tablets (or that Apple products sell regardless of functionality).
Re:Thanks you... by binarybum · 2010-05-25 14:16 · Score: 4, Insightful

Saying a tablet isn't a full blown computer is not forward thinking. That's like saying 10yrs ago, you're crazy for wanting to use email on your phone, a cell phone has a niche and this is what it does - accept it. Apple loves this kind of thinking.
Realistically though - who wants to carry around multiple portable devices? Should I use my netbook for somethings, my laptop for others, and my full-blown computer for yet other things? Marketing departments everywhere are screaming YES! but really, a lightweight portable device that runs a similar platform to whatever I sit in front of at work and that has as few limitations as possible will clearly dominate the market at some point. The demand for performance and user interface will always be highest on portable devices - if you are bothering to lug something around with you in a world saturated with computer terminals - the thing you are carrying around better make itself snappy and easy to use or it gets left behind. I'll wait until I get home to check my email rather than lug some piece of junk on the bus that takes one minute to boot, 3min to connect to some sort of network and another 3min to get into my email. Apple has recognized this and windows has not. As soon as someone makes something that incorporates Apple's understanding of the UI but makes a tablet style computer instead of a toy, the idea that your tablet has to be a specialty niche device evaporates - it becomes just another portal to your digital world.

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Re:Thanks you... by BrokenHalo · 2010-05-25 14:47 · Score: 2, Insightful

Exactly. The statement that "The iPad proved a tablet shouldn't be a portable computer" is a complete non sequitur. The only thing that has been proved is that Apple's vision does not include marketing to people who want to be able to pull up a Unix shell of their choice and start hacking. They are more interested in a product that is essentially like a white-goods appliance for which Apple can sell various widgets.

Of course, Apple is entitled to its own point of view, but this rationale is exactly why I won't be buying an iPad.
Re:Thanks you... by Anonymous Coward · 2010-05-25 15:06 · Score: 3, Insightful

More likely the mods smelled an anti-Apple viewpoint that is regurgitated regularly and without any thought or originality. He or she immediately starts the usual "they only buy it because it's Apple" rant, spewing more 'Apple Disciple' nonsense, throws in the required 'fanatical', and 'brainwashed' buzzwords. About the only phrase that's missing is the 'Alter of Steve' bit. Was there really anything insightful in the parent post that we haven't read thousands of times in countless Apple threads for the last 3 years? It's gotten far worse since the Droid came out, never mind the fact that Apple gave droid the basis for it's design. Sure there were smart phones out before iPhone, but none of them were really usable for the average joe. The UI's sucked, the OS's were to be detested, and the ease of use simply didn't exist.
Droid didn't happen in a vacuum and if you think it was 'all new' (ala Billy Mays), you're deluding yourself. I agree with the summary. Windows in it's current implementation doesn't work for a tablet. It hasn't worked for a tablet for the last decade, and unless they change their way of thinking to better adapt to touch interfaces, they will continue to be irrelevant.
Re:Thanks you... by mgblst · 2010-05-25 16:02 · Score: 3, Insightful

Oh fuck off. Yes, Apple only sells stuff because of the RDF or advertising. What a load of shit.
Windows 7 tablets have been out already, just as Vista and XP tablets have also been out. What we do know, is that so far, these devices have not taken off.
Now, there will be a second wave of tablets, where everyone runs out and copies the iPad, and that might change things. They will be cheaper, and not as powerful, and have longer lasting batteries. It remains to be seen how well W7 does on this, andoid might be a better fit, and might actually take off.
Re:Thanks you... by pantherace · 2010-05-25 16:41 · Score: 2, Interesting

Actually, Windows based tablets are actually making headway. For one example, look at a lot of medical use doctors offices/hospitals/clinics, many of them have tablets. For another, look at many classrooms, where if the professor uses any computer, it is quite likely a tablet.
It just isn't making the splashy headlines, but it's been slowly and steadily growing. Could the ipad do some of the above? Probably. Is it likely to be given the chance to? I doubt it. Many of the applications used for the medical uses, especially from what I've seen, are both custom and subject to HIPAA. I seriously doubt anyone will actually try to replicate it on the ipad, due to being essentially held hostage to apple's approval for any new versions. That doesn't even address the mess that would be the ipad in regards to HIPAA, due to Apple's control.
Re:Thanks you... by babyrat · 2010-05-25 17:16 · Score: 2

I'll be the minority here because I've used both an iPad and a windows 7 tablet (Asus T91MT). Windows 7 does a good job at handling touch events, and passing them to non-touch aware apps.
I have the choice between an iPad and a Windows 7 tablet, and I choose the Win 7 tablet.
Re:Thanks you... by Itninja · 2010-05-25 17:38 · Score: 2, Insightful

Kind of a Ford vs Chevy argument. I know of no major PC makers that have not inspired large numbers of horror stories. We have 1000's of servers in our 17 data centers, almost all are HP's, and we have minimal problems. But other organizations swear by Dell and call HP the great Satan. Still others claim IBM servers are the bees knees....

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Re:Thanks you... by node+3 · 2010-05-25 17:41 · Score: 3, Insightful

Saying a tablet isn't a full blown computer is not forward thinking. That's like saying 10yrs ago, you're crazy for wanting to use email on your phone, a cell phone has a niche and this is what it does - accept it. Apple loves this kind of thinking.
What's 10 years from now got to do with anything? If 10 years from now tablets will be running a full-blown desktop OS (they won't), that doesn't mean they should be doing so now.

but really, a lightweight portable device that runs a similar platform to whatever I sit in front of at work and that has as few limitations as possible will clearly dominate the market at some point.
That's not clear at all. An OS designed for a large screen with a mouse and keyboard doesn't make sense for use on a small multitouch device. Additionally, what you mean by "as few limitations as possible" is not relevant to most people. I assume you mean the type of limitations that the iPad has (primarily, the app store). Those "limitations" to you are not limitations for most people. On the contrary, the App Store is more enabling for most people than the Android-style solution.
What matters much more than if your portable unit runs the same OS and the same exact apps as your desktop is if your portable device has apps available to do the things people want to do away from home. With the iPhone and iPad, the answer is clearly "yes" for the vast majority of consumers so far.

As soon as someone makes something that incorporates Apple's understanding of the UI but makes a tablet style computer instead of a toy, the idea that your tablet has to be a specialty niche device evaporates - it becomes just another portal to your digital world.
The thing that makes you call the iPad a toy is the exact reason you are wrong here. People just aren't bothered by the limitations that irk you. In the '80s, the Mac was a "toy" because the mouse was "too limiting" and people "wanted the same text-mode apps they used at work", etc.
Re:Thanks you... by Capsaicin · 2010-05-25 17:45 · Score: 2, Insightful

Apple's vision does not include marketing to people who want to be able to pull up a Unix shell of their choice and start hacking. ... [T]his rationale is exactly why I won't be buying an iPad.
Yes, this is the reason I won't be buying one for myself. For my wife, OTOH ...

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Better to be despised for too anxious apprehensions, than ruined by too confident a security. --Edmund Burke
Re:Thanks you... by node+3 · 2010-05-25 18:02 · Score: 3, Interesting

Actually, Windows based tablets are actually making headway. For one example, look at a lot of medical use doctors offices/hospitals/clinics, many of them have tablets. For another, look at many classrooms, where if the professor uses any computer, it is quite likely a tablet.
That's not "headway", except possibly in two very small markets. Only 3-4 million tablet PCs are sold per year. I have little doubt that the iPad will outsell all other tablets this year, even given the iPad not being available until April, and the supply being severely constrained.
The far more interesting question isn't "will the tablet PC make headway against the iPad", it's "how long will it take before the iPad sells more total units than total tablet PCs ever sold."

Could the ipad do some of the above? Probably. Is it likely to be given the chance to? I doubt it. Many of the applications used for the medical uses, especially from what I've seen, are both custom and subject to HIPAA. I seriously doubt anyone will actually try to replicate it on the ipad, due to being essentially held hostage to apple's approval for any new versions.
The notion that developers are going to shy away from the iPad for fear of rejection is absurd. It's not terribly difficult to have a fairly reasonable idea of whether or not your app has a reasonable risk of being denied. Sure, there have been a handful of surprising rejections (almost all of which have been accepted after minor changes). Medical apps, especially, have very little risk of being rejected.

That doesn't even address the mess that would be the ipad in regards to HIPAA, due to Apple's control.
And what mess, exactly, is that? "Control" isn't a magic word that means "can't be used by third parties".
Re:Thanks you... by node+3 · 2010-05-25 18:13 · Score: 4, Insightful

No the fuck it didn't. The iPad proved that people will buy anything if it's had enough Apple hype ladled onto it.
That's why everyone has an AppleTV.
Oh wait. They don't. People don't buy Apple products because they have an Apple logo, they buy them because they work extremely well. The fact that the products that tend to work the best tend to have an Apple logo says more about Apple and its competition than it does about those that buy Apple products.

I think the new wave of Windows 7 and Android tablets will show that in short order.
Nonsense. Windows 7 tablets are a dead end. Android and WebOS are the only real competition for the iPad going forward. This year, there's no chance Android or WebOS tablets will outsell the iPad, and further down the road, I don't see people buying either over the iPad, as there's pretty much no compelling reason to.

Sadly, breathless hype is a speciality of Apple disciples, and so we'll be hearing about how revolutionary the iPad is long after everyone who actually wanted a real tablet computer has bought one and is happily at home using it.
Only 3-4 million tablet PCs are sold per year. The iPad will outsell the tablet PC this year. Windows 7 won't have any significant impact on this.

Apple's marketing strategy could be best described as "less is more, more is more than that".
No, Apple's marketing strategy is to make sure their products are appealing without marketing, and use marketing as a way of getting people to get into an Apple Store. Once there, their products sell themselves. You can't polish a turd. Apple could not have had the success they have had to date if their products are successful primarily due to marketing, and not for the inherent quality of the products themselves.
Re:Thanks you... by daffmeister · 2010-05-25 19:59 · Score: 4, Insightful

They're not selling to Apple fanboys, they're selling to the general public. You and I notice when it shuts down the current process to fire up the web-browser but the average person doesn't notice and doesn't care. They care more about it being easy to use. That's Apple's focus and they only add features when they can nail the ease-of-use as well. That's why they are so successful.
It's not for you. It's probably not for me. But it is for most people.
Re:Thanks you... by LinuxAndLube · 2010-05-25 20:20 · Score: 2, Insightful

Did Apple (and the media) hype Apple TV as much as the iPad? I didn't think so. The sales of Apple products are proportional to the degree to which they were hyped. People are buying iPads because they're magic and not because they've tried them and compared them to competing devices.
Re:Thanks you... by node+3 · 2010-05-25 21:00 · Score: 2, Insightful

Did Apple (and the media) hype Apple TV as much as the iPad? I didn't think so. The sales of Apple products are proportional to the degree to which they were hyped.
Hype doesn't appear out of thin air. If all it takes for Apple to sell a product is hype, why would they skimp on it for the AppleTV? Because hype feeds on genuine interest. Hype without genuine interest quickly fades.

People are buying iPads because they're magic and not because they've tried them and compared them to competing devices.
There are no competing devices. And if you don't think people are trying iPads, you clearly haven't been in an Apple Store during the better part of the last two months.
You are right in that people are buying iPads because they are magical. Not literally, of course, but Apple's chosen adjective does a good job of describing the way it feels to use the iPad. And like I've said, if it didn't the marketing would not be able to fake it for long.
The only way the "iPad is just marketing" notion can really be true is if iPad sales fall significantly in a short amount of time as marketing lies are laid bare. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that to happen, though.
iPad is a huge success. People don't spend $499+ merely on hype. Not in the sort of numbers the iPad has been seeing.
Re:Thanks you... by gnasher719 · 2010-05-25 21:18 · Score: 2, Interesting

No the fuck it didn't. The iPad proved that people will buy anything if it's had enough Apple hype ladled onto it. I think the new wave of Windows 7 and Android tablets will show that in short order. Sadly, breathless hype is a speciality of Apple disciples, and so we'll be hearing about how revolutionary the iPad is long after everyone who actually wanted a real tablet computer has bought one and is happily at home using it.
I noticed your post was modded up as "Insightful". It makes me wonder why the rating menu doesn't have a "completely of his rocker" entry.

Where did you find any "breathless hype"? I haven't seen any. I have seen plenty of information what the iPad does - it is basically a huge iPod Touch and by being huge it suddenly becomes very useful. It has applications that are easy to call up and many of them look very nice and they all are very easy to use. Have you ever used the word "ladled" and "disciples" anywhere except in connection with Apple products? What is going on in your sad little mind that Apple outselling a Windows-based product makes you choose strange words like that?

Someone more clever than me wrote: "I couldn't figure out what would be the killer application for the iPad. Now I know: The killer feature is: It is _no computer_". People don't want a "real tablet computer". 70 percent of all people who bought a netbook or laptop never wanted a "computer" in the first place.
Re:Thanks you... by imakemusic · 2010-05-25 21:31 · Score: 2, Funny

apparently your a moron
His a moron what?

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Brain surgery - it's not rocket science!
Re:Thanks you... by drinkypoo · 2010-05-26 00:21 · Score: 2, Insightful

Nonsense. Windows 7 tablets are a dead end. Android and WebOS are the only real competition for the iPad going forward. This year, there's no chance Android or WebOS tablets will outsell the iPad, and further down the road, I don't see people buying either over the iPad, as there's pretty much no compelling reason to.
You could have said the same thing about the iPhone and Android, yet Android phones have already outsold the iPhone. Non-Apple Tablets will outsell Apple tablets because more people want a computer that works than want a computer that's shiny, and let's face it, Android works so it meets the basic requirement. The masses will go with what's cheap, over time. Who cares if the iPad sells more in its first year, or second? There's still a lot of years left (unless the world ends in 2012, is that on what you are basing your projections?)

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No current OS is "right for a slate" by Anonymous Coward · 2010-05-25 10:14 · Score: 5, Interesting

Hell, I'm having a hard time thinking of what would be right for a "slate". That Courier sure looked nice for what it was designed to do. As a general computing platform... nah

OS designed to be used at a desk with a keyboard, mouse, and unlimited energy? Not so great on a small slate.

OS designed for small handsets for quick and dirty access to stuff on the go? Easier to put on a slate, but still not something I'd want.

Where is a slate with a "SlateOS"? Good for reading, good for watching, good for casual surfing/ computing. multitouch, high end pen input.

Re:No current OS is "right for a slate" by forkazoo · 2010-05-25 11:40 · Score: 2, Insightful

Newton.
Re:No current OS is "right for a slate" by nutshell42 · 2010-05-25 11:47 · Score: 5, Insightful

Hell, I'm having a hard time thinking of what would be right for a "slate". That Courier sure looked nice for what it was designed to do. As a general computing platform... nah
Microsoft's the Xerox of our days. There's some great ideas coming out of Microsoft Research but the rest of the company's pathologically unable to see anything through to the end.
Tablet PCs. Great idea, it failed because all the devices were half-assed notebooks with a touchscreen tucked on. It failed because MS went all the way to create the best handwriting recognition on the planet and then didn't make it usable in Office (with the exception of one specialized app). It failed because they really needed something like the Courier user interface but instead they built the back-end then scrapped it and instead they're just gonna copy Apple like usual.
P.S.: Oh and they failed because Intel's been unable or unwilling to really improve the Atom in over two years. It's their Tick....Quack model of development. The Quack is them moving the GPU on the CPU die which is less about better performance or lower power and more about killing Nvidia without being quite so obvious about it.

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Don't think of it as a flame---it's more like an argument that does 3d6 fire damage
Re:No current OS is "right for a slate" by Mike+Buddha · 2010-05-25 11:48 · Score: 5, Insightful

I concur. Microsoft already tried the tablet route with the MIDs not 3 years ago, and it sucked, because desktop OS's are too deeply invested in keyboards, mice, and power outlets. I bought a Samsung MID and it was a terrible user experience.
I've thought for a long time now that stylus' are crutches that allow you to use the wrong kind of UI on a portable device. The iPhone, iPod Touch, and iPad only serve to reinforce that belief.

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by Mike Buddha -- Someday the mountain might get him, but the law never will.
Re:No current OS is "right for a slate" by Draek · 2010-05-25 13:55 · Score: 4, Insightful

And Tablet PCs failed because I've never, *ever* seen one priced below the level of a high-end notebook. I've heard there's some in the US, if you're willing to spend two days finding one online and then masquerading as a small business to buy it, but in the rest of the world your options are between "sell one kidney" and "sell both".
When an Apple product is the *cheap* alternative, you know you're doing something very, very wrong.

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No problem is insoluble in all conceivable circumstances.
Re:No current OS is "right for a slate" by Voyager529 · 2010-05-25 14:36 · Score: 2, Insightful

I've thought for a long time now that stylus' are crutches that allow you to use the wrong kind of UI on a portable device. The iPhone, iPod Touch, and iPad only serve to reinforce that belief.
That depends. Wacom seems to be making a living for themselves making it possible for graphic designers to use a stylus on their laptops. A general purpose input, it is not. But if Wacom can make their existence dependent on adding a stylus to a computer, there IS in fact a demographic that WANTS one. Personally, I've been saying it for ages - HP, Toshiba, and Fujitsu have all had tablet PCs since 2004, they've all cost an arm and a leg (though I've seen some decent HP units cost south of $1,000 recently), and they all had low end CPUs/GPUs/HDDs/RAM, because it was assumed that they were intended to be carried around like five subject notebooks. What one of them needed to do was to make a desktop replacement tablet (i.e. one that CAN, in fact, run Crysis) and target the media design people.
Similarly, the iPad may get all kinds of media coverage and consumer acceptance, but WinMo is still very entrenched in retail and industrial applications. The stylus reigns supreme in warehouses, shipping yards, and your local Wal-Mart, and like it or not, virtually every one of those devices is running some flavor of WinMo. Someone needs to make a slate with a barcode scanner, an AS/400 client, and a few other niceties, let Apple have the consumer space, but get half a dozen of their devices into every Wal-Mart, Staples, and UPS truck instead. The two CAN, in fact, coexist.
Re:No current OS is "right for a slate" by Anonymous Coward · 2010-05-25 17:54 · Score: 2, Interesting

Eh, you really need to read up the history of Xerox PARC and Microsoft. PARC came up with incredible ideas that were implementable, not just great on paper. That's why people who visited PARC were blown away and some, like Jobs, saw what the future was like when he thought what the possibilities of those ideas brought. Microsoft came up with great but unimplementable ideas. Anyone can do that. I envision a micro tablet weighing 1.5 oz. powered with a fusion battery to drive a quantum computing chip. No screen, just a holographic projector. It creates a force field so that you can feel the virtual keyboard. And it costs $10. I've got the rendering of the device. All geeks praise me!
Courier was announced to create a FUD so that people don't buy iPad, but keep on waiting for Microsoft tablet. Many MS ideas are vaporwares. MS != Xerox PARC.

Mobile and Microsoft by Miros · 2010-05-25 10:17 · Score: 3, Interesting

Microsoft has never managed to crack the mobile nut, why is that? What is their strategic blind spot that makes them so unable to penetrate this industry, even through acquisition?

Re:Mobile and Microsoft by Archangel+Michael · 2010-05-25 10:25 · Score: 5, Insightful

Their vulnerable blind spot is called WINDOWS.
Everything in Windows was designed for mouse/keyboard combination, and there is no touch UI to behold.
Apple's approach is much better, different products, different approaches, and a different UI for Desktop and touch based items.
The reason why touch screens suck so much, is not because they suck, but the application/OS is always bolted on afterthought, rather than separate approach.
This is why I see Apple and Android being the dominant players in these types of devices. And if HP can pull off a miracle and get Palm functioning, it might prove to be a viable third tier option.
I'm afraid the people running Microsoft can't think outside of the whole "Windows" paradigm long enough to figure out that Windows is NOT a touch screen OS, no matter what they try to bolt on.

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Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
Re:Mobile and Microsoft by Lally+Singh · 2010-05-25 10:27 · Score: 5, Insightful

They're working too hard for Windows lockin. If they would just let that go, and let all their smart people develop a *good OS* for *just* *mobile*, with no ball & chain to Windows, it'd be competitive.
Sadly, I think that such an activity is against their DNA at this point.

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Care about electronic freedom? Consider donating to the EFF!
Re:Mobile and Microsoft by Monkeedude1212 · 2010-05-25 10:32 · Score: 2, Insightful

(Disclaimer: Personal experience)
For the same reason that people don't like Internet Explorer, or Windows in General, after trying out alternatives seriously. It's slow, it's bloated, it's insecure. I haven't seen a windows mobile phone that takes less than a second to load the contacts list, or one that even manages to navigate menus fluidly.
It's not a hardware issue, its a software issue. And they haven't had a lot of big name acquisitions in the mobile field, as far as I can recall.
Re:Mobile and Microsoft by willabr · 2010-05-25 10:43 · Score: 5, Informative

I've been using a Hp tablet PC, windows 7 and OneNote (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Office_2010). This seems to be a very good solution for me, I can use all my desktop data, anotate with the pen, and when not using the One note touch/pen interface I can swivel the screen around and use like a laptop (keyboard etc). I travel around alot and need to gather a bunch of "freeform" data, I can take some pictures, embed them into my documets, write a few notes next to them, send them off to various mail accounts, download some data from the net, and when I get back to the Orfice, connect up to the network and share the whole works whith a few co-workers. I don't really listen to a lot of music or watch movies with it, (although I did spend a week out in boondocks of Wisconsin and the netflix account came in handy) I guess you get what you need and leave it at that, often I think that most of the hype is created to sell advertising copy. When all is said and done, you figure out what you need to do, and then get the best fit.
Re:Mobile and Microsoft by ozmanjusri · 2010-05-25 10:45 · Score: 5, Insightful

Their vulnerable blind spot is called WINDOWS.
Sort of.
Actually, Microsoft doesn't have a "vulnerable blind spot". What they have is an applications stack lever. They've never managed to reach into the mobile platforms because their whole business is built on application/data incompatibility with other platforms. The cost of moving from Microsoft is not the loss of Windows. It's the loss of the millions of Windows apps.
That's wonderful for them when they "compete" in the Wintel market, but elsewhere, without the support of that weight of backwards compatible applications, their OS efforts are exposed as bland, clunky and unreliable.

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"I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
Re:Mobile and Microsoft by Mordok-DestroyerOfWo · 2010-05-25 11:21 · Score: 3, Insightful

They're working too hard for Windows lockin.
And Apple isn't working just as feverishly for their own lockin?

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"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right" - Salvor Hardin
Re:Mobile and Microsoft by Skuld-Chan · 2010-05-25 11:24 · Score: 2, Informative

Who has said they are complete failures at this? They have a phone on every network/carrier, they have tons of apps, and they have tons of sales - no not as much as apple, but you don't have to beat everything to a pulp to be successful.
Only reason I quit using my Windows Mobile 6 device (and will never get another one ever again) is because of the firm belief that I shouldn't have to reboot the phone 2-3 times a day. Aside from that issue - the apps were great, the experience was usable and the battery life was ok.
My Nexus One goes for weeks and weeks and weeks without any problems :) - I'm now a happy Android user.
Re:Mobile and Microsoft by obarthelemy · 2010-05-25 11:26 · Score: 2, Insightful

There's a bunch of stuff they never managed to crack. In the entreprise, "embrace and extend" works, though I wouldn't really call that "cracking" anything, it's more like buying into something. In the consumer market, they failed at pretty much everything, except Xbox, and that's only because they where willing to sink so much money into it that they scared competitors away.
Generally speaking, their blind spot is their legacy: they're afraid to innovate lest they either break backwards compatibility, or open themselves to competitors. That defensiveness is a huge diversion from actual innovation. They WANTED WinMobile to look and feel like Windows, and Tablets to feel so close to Desktops... Never mind usability was horrendous, god forbid users would learn another interface/paradigm... And for a while, it worked, because consumers are sheep, Palm could not market water to the thirsty, and Linux devs think users are a nuisance. It says a lot that Apple manages to make so much money from so little sales, and that Google, a spyware company, could and had to step in with Android for things to get moving.
MS is so backward-looking they couldn't innovate, and, worse, they're so aggressive and powerful they managed to drive the competition away. The rewards are going to be plentiful for the few remaining mobile players... and be ready for a big laugh as WinMob 7 gets released. MS has, has had for a while, great stuff in their labs... They're just fearful or releasing innovating stuff that doesn't immediately work for they users, fit with their legacy stuff, and/or only makes sense with standards that competitiors could graft onto. Apple obsoleted PPC, MacOS pre-X, broke backwards compatibility, came up with the very different interface for their media consumption devices, bullied their devs to ensure control and consistency... MS never had the balls to do any of this, though I'm sure a bunch of Softies knew that was needed.

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The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
Re:Mobile and Microsoft by clarkkent09 · 2010-05-25 11:31 · Score: 4, Interesting

Also, what is it about a multi-billion company that cant find an advertising agency that can make one decent commercial for them? Seems like every single ad by Microsoft is somewhere between bad and embarrassingly bad.

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Negative moral value of force outweighs the positive value of good intentions.
Re:Mobile and Microsoft by Anonymous Coward · 2010-05-25 11:59 · Score: 2, Insightful

Well to start with, I am yet to see a single feature in the iphone that is not a ripoff of all the other smart phones that came before it, including the winmo devices and a lot of the nokia stuff. iphone just packaged it better with less features then them.

secondly looking at the winmob7 they seem to have done the exact opposite of iphone, iphone is application centric, from my limited exposure so far to winmob7 it is people centric, a rather interesting approach that in thoery if they implement it well should turn out as a significantly better model, time will tell.
Re:Mobile and Microsoft by jo_ham · 2010-05-25 12:06 · Score: 5, Insightful

It's a little different - the ecosystem, yes - vertical integration is their game, but for your data they are opposed to lock-in.
Office apps: documented, open XML format (making it very easy and supported to write converters if you don;t want to use the format itself).
Audio: AAC
Video: H.264
Email: .mbox
Calendars/contacts: vcard/icalendar
They want you using Apple hardware and software, but they make it easy to move your data in and out of the ecosystem as you choose.
Re:Mobile and Microsoft by man_of_mr_e · 2010-05-25 12:17 · Score: 3, Insightful

Their vulnerable blind spot is called WINDOWS.
Yes, and no. Microsoft wants Windows to be everywhere, and lots of people want Windows to be everywhere. So far, that hasn't worked for a variety of reasons.

Everything in Windows was designed for mouse/keyboard combination, and there is no touch UI to behold.
Again, yes and no. Windows 7 has a terrific touch UI. but the legacy apps aren't written to support it.
An affordable windows slate is wanted and needed and has a market, if it has the performance characteristics necessary (cpu, battery, etc..). Nobody wants another overpriced tablet pc.

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Re:Mobile and Microsoft by mcrbids · 2010-05-25 14:03 · Score: 3, Interesting

And Apple isn't working just as feverishly for their own lockin?
Sure, they are, but they aren't trying to leverage MacOS out into the iPod Nano. The difference is that Microsoft isn't willing to compete on features + quality alone, they want to bring all their application base to the new platform. They may eventually succeed, but it would be a long, hard road. Apple seems perfectly willing to ditch their "application base" if/when the need arises - witness OSX itself, which is a complete, ground-up rewrite of their O/S for Macs. And it's worked very well for them. I type this on a Mac Mini that I've grown to love.
So much, that I was just about to turn in my geek cards and pick up the Apple Fanboi deck. But I have to say, with their recent shenanigans around Flash and the iPad, any urge to do so have vaporized. As a developer myself, I'm thinking I'd rather take my chances on Android than deal with the increasingly dystopic-looking future with Apple!

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I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
Re:Mobile and Microsoft by foniksonik · 2010-05-25 14:05 · Score: 4, Insightful

Apple didn't just package it better. They packaged it so it works on the device. Features don't get used when they are too clumsy. Try to sell me a hand power drill that requires two hands to operate and I'll tell you to suck it. Sure if it was the only drill available I'd try to make it work but I'd drop it instantly the minute I saw a one handed version.
The interface is the tool. Without a good interface it's just a bunch of technology being under used.

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A fool throws a stone into a well and a thousand sages can not remove it.
Re:Mobile and Microsoft by jo_ham · 2010-05-25 15:02 · Score: 2, Informative

Not any more - except for the TV and movies on the iTunes store, due to content provider requirement.
The music has no DRM now, which they wanted from the start. On the whole, their formats are DRM free.
Re:Mobile and Microsoft by Bert64 · 2010-05-25 21:38 · Score: 2, Insightful

All DRM schemes are proprietary by their very nature... Apple don't want DRM, they are forced to use it by the content providers or they won't supply any content. Their DRM scheme for music is gone now, and was always very easy to bypass.

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Re:Mobile and Microsoft by jo_ham · 2010-05-25 21:42 · Score: 4, Insightful

What proprietary formats? I gave you specific examples. What proprietary and "lock in" data formats do they use?
What exactly do they "do in software" that restricts users more than Microsoft?
The provide *optional* software registration for OS X and several of their products - the pro apps are all optional registrations, it has nothing to do with activating or validating the installs.
The last bit of DRM on the data formats they use is on movies and TV shows from the iTunes store, which they are working on removing (like they did with music), but cannot do so unless the content providers (namely the movie and TV studios) agree.
They "take advantage" (you try to make it sound like adding commercial weight to an OSS project is a bad thing) of free software and yet still favour data transparency - there is nothing stopping them using a proprietary blob for their formats on the other side (for example, the mailbox format in Mail - they didn't have to use .mbox, or they could have used .mbox but wrapped it up inside an app bundle with Mac-only extensions, or their office formats (iWork etc) could have used a non-documented and difficult to reverse engineer XML format, instead it is well specced and open for anyone to write a full converter.
All you are doing is spreading FUD of your own. Apple are no angels, but your post is nothing more than accusations with no citation. I gave you examples, I expect them in return in a counter argument. Oh right, you don;t have any, you're just making it up.

Been There, Done That by s73v3r · 2010-05-25 10:17 · Score: 3, Interesting

Slate tablets running a regular, desktop OS have been around for almost 10 years now. And they still have yet to gain traction or become popular. Mainly because people don't want a desktop OS in a slate form factor. Part of the reason why these new phone OSes are making inroads in the tablet space is because they were designed from the ground up to work in low power conditions (ARM processors) and work with a finger based input. What's more, the app catalogs of these OSes are full of apps that are designed with these limitations taken into account from the beginning.

People say they want a slate running a desktop OS so they can use all their existing desktop OS apps. But what they fail to realize is that any slate tablet is going to have the internals of a netbook or worse, and the apps they're gonna try and run are going to be designed with a keyboard and mouse in mind, which will make finger usage difficult. Sure, you could carry around a keyboard and mouse with you in case you need it, but then you've kinda defeated the purpose of a slate tablet in the first place (portability), and might as well carry around a much more powerful laptop.

Re:Been There, Done That by BarryJacobsen · 2010-05-25 10:33 · Score: 3, Insightful

Mainly because general end users don't want a desktop OS in a slate form factor.
There are some domains where a desktop OS tablet is very desirable.
There are some domains where a Barium Enema is very desirable. That doesn't mean the general population wants one.

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Re:Been There, Done That by cowscows · 2010-05-25 10:34 · Score: 4, Insightful

Microsoft's first answer to every problem has been to protect/promote Windows, even when that wasn't a viable strategy. At first they tried to ignore the internet because it conflicted with their idea of Windows, and then when that didn't work, they came up with IE and tried to use that to tie the internet to Windows. Windows is their biggest cash cow, it's their marketshare dominance, it's the heart of their company. (One big exception to this is the Xbox, which despite not making any money, has at least been successful in terms of marketshare. If the Xbox dropped you into a windows desktop when you powered it up, it probably would've failed pretty hard).
They're finally starting to get it, but at this point, they're years behind.

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One time I threw a brick at a duck.
Re:Been There, Done That by BlueStraggler · 2010-05-25 12:05 · Score: 2, Informative

The statement "people don't want them" in the context of mass-market products should be interpreted thusly: people is not simply a plural, but a mega-plural, referring to people in units of millions. Therefore "people don't want them" means: "when we round our sales projections to the nearest million, the total sales are zero." A few niche-market individuals may be interested in these products, but people are not.
Re:Been There, Done That by Anonymous Coward · 2010-05-25 13:11 · Score: 2, Insightful

...Windows is their biggest cash cow, it's their marketshare dominance, it's the heart of their company. (One big exception to this is the Xbox, which despite not making any money, has at least been successful in terms of marketshare...
I mostly agree with your overall point, but these 2 sentences are a bit simple. Office is their real cash cow. Windows is just a tool to help maintain dominance. Office is dominant and makes boatloads of money for MS. On this front, they're not years behind the competition they're years ahead of it.
As nifty as any touch interface will be, it will take a backseat to a keyboard and mouse when it comes to most business applications. Quick example... if I'm populating a spreadsheet table, do I really want the keyboard to pop-up/disappear each time I begin/end editing a cell's contents? Not really.
Re:Been There, Done That by cowscows · 2010-05-25 14:32 · Score: 2, Insightful

Yeah, office is certainly big for them, no argument there.
You're also correct about certain significant computing tasks being tied to a real keyboard for all practical purposes. Microsoft could probably shut down all of it's consumer related divisions tomorrow, and continue to be plenty profitable for years just by selling office software to businesses. But even if they could stay afloat like that, being relevant only in the area of word processing and spreadsheets is a rather lame fate for a company that basically had a stranglehold on the computer world a decade or so ago.
While it'll never completely replace desktop machines, mobile computing is obviously the next big thing, and where all of the growth is going to be for at least the next few years. And microsoft has become all but irrelevant there. The only thing going for Microsoft in this case is that they pulled themselves out of a mildly similar position once before, when they finally realized that the Internet was a big deal, and they threw together IE to catch up with Netscape.
But that situation was only mildly similar. They've got more than one real competitor this time, and I don't think Apple or Google are going to sit back and relax for a couple years like Netscape did. They can't undercut google on price, and they aren't going to beat Apple at hardware/software integration. They can't bundle a mobile device in with windows, and the interface differences with a touchscreen basically throw out a lot of the software lock-in that might exist. I do not envy the position that they are in.

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One time I threw a brick at a duck.

Why don't they... by RingDev · 2010-05-25 10:20 · Score: 2, Insightful

Build a tablet that can run .Net and Java apps native, can render CSS3 (gotta get at least 80% on Acid3), and can run both Flash and Silverlight in the browser. I'd be willing to part with some hard earned cash for it.

But for now, if my choices are between "be a tool, buy an Apple" iPad and a "more bloated than 3 day old roadkill" Windows 7, I think I'll wait.

-Rick

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"Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs

Re:Why don't they... by h4rr4r · 2010-05-25 10:41 · Score: 3, Insightful

Not gonna happen. MS would never let .Net run anywhere else and the same will be true for silverlight soon enough. Note no play ready DRM for moonlight and the fact that the windows version is gaining features the mac one will never get. Microsoft would never do anything that does not serve to prop up their windows desktop monopoly.

Re:Doesn't Win7 have a "tablet mode"? by MBGMorden · 2010-05-25 10:28 · Score: 4, Insightful

You basically repeated the summary. Yes, it has a tablet mode. Yes, some manufacturers are going to ship with it. Yes, it's going to suck.

As much as I loathe Apple's restrictions, they have the right idea with the iPad. As a device, the entire desktop UI metaphor needs to be rethought.

Microsoft is the type that's always going to throw a stylus and a full keyboard into the mix "just in case", and developers will enevitably end up writing with those in mind because it's closer to what they already know how to work with on the desktop. In short, Microsoft's products in new markets suck because they just don't have the balls to try something REALLY different. They take baby steps when they should be taking leaps.

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"People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain

Archos 9 by riboch · 2010-05-25 10:34 · Score: 4, Informative

Archos 9 (http://www.archos.com/products/nb/archos_9/index.html?country=us&lang=en) ships with Windows 7, the older Archos 7 and Archos 5 shipped with Angstrom Linux and they even release the source code.

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GO BLUE!

Re:WebOS by Anonymous Coward · 2010-05-25 10:38 · Score: 2, Informative

Hugh? You can use javascript or native C code to write your apps for webos too, so I fail to see your point.

Re:WebOS by vivek7006 · 2010-05-25 10:40 · Score: 4, Insightful

You make it sound as if WebOS is slow and bloated, which it clearly isn't. WebOS is built on top of Linux kernel and is specifically designed for use on devices with touchscreens. Android and WebOS are a much better alternative than windows7 for slate devices and OEMs seem to be realizing that now

Re:Time will tell if Android will succeed by h4rr4r · 2010-05-25 10:44 · Score: 2, Informative

Android is selling more units than iphone at this point. It has already delivered. How is that flash video working out for you?

The android market is not fragmented in any meaningful way, if you target 1.5 or 1.6 it will run on everything later. This whole Android is fragmented thing is FUD from the apple camp.

Re:WebOS by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · 2010-05-25 10:45 · Score: 2, Insightful

Sounds like you missed the news of the availability of a native development plugin system...

The problem isn't the OS by WillyWanker · 2010-05-25 10:50 · Score: 3, Informative

The operating system isn't the problem. It's the GUI. There is no reason why you can't run Windows 7 on a slate with a different GUI that is custom-tailored to a touchscreen environment.

If slates are going to stand any chance of being successful they need to be full computers running a full OS (even if it's Android) that have a properly-designed GUI. Smartphone OSs just aren't going to cut it.

Re:Are you serious...?! by binarylarry · 2010-05-25 10:52 · Score: 3, Insightful

Don't worry bro, now that Microsoft's entertainment and electronic executives have been fired, Ballmer is back in charge.

Smooth sailing from here bro.

Microsoft needed moar Ballmer and it's getting it.

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Some common sense is starting to show by Whuffo · 2010-05-25 11:07 · Score: 3, Insightful

The input method for an OS or its applications is very basic stuff; what works well for input from a keyboard doesn't work well with a mouse. Try operating programs in a Windows CMD window with your mouse and see how far that gets you. Operating Windows from a keyboard is possible but you wouldn't want to try to do serious work this way - and even today there's important menu functions that don't have keyboard equivalents. Neither of those designs is wrong, they're just designed for a particular input method. You can attempt to patch things so that the support for a wrong input device is a different kind of wrong but the only way to do it right is to start from scratch and design from the ground up for the input method.

A touch screen interface - especially multi-touch - is also a different input method. Your finger isn't a mouse and while you can try to emulate a mouse with a finger you'll quickly find that there's information a mouse supplies that a finger can only do awkwardly if at all. You'd think that Microsoft - who was right there in the thick of the battle to change input methods from text to mouse - would know these things. I suspect their engineers do but their marketing people apparently don't.

Anyone that has a digitizer tablet connected to a Windows box can easily verify that attempting to operate Windows with nothing more than "point" and "click" is a frustrating experience. Everything is much more difficult to do until you reach a critical point where you won't be able to proceed any further. Their tablet add-ons try to address these fundamental problems but they can only do it imperfectly - Windows is designed from the ground up to be operated with a mouse / keyboard. The companies making tablet PCs have known this for years and you might note that they include a detachable keyboard and a PS/2 mouse port in their designs. Their hope was that your in-house programs would be good enough to work from the touch screen and that this would make their product truly useful. Trying to use Office apps on a touch screen just doesn't work well enough to be usable.

Apple's success with their touch screen devices is largely due to the simple fact that the OS that runs them was built to use a touch screen as its primary input device. And much of their app approval process is there to insure that quickie ports of mouse operated apps aren't inflicted on their users. Touch is another different input method and like the others, only works well when the system is built from the ground up to be operated in that way.

If Microsoft wants to play in this market they're going to have to break away from tradition and build a lightweight touch operated OS - they've got the talent to do it but I'm not sure if they have the willingness to do it. I suspect they'll just keep on pushing their desktop OS on tablets and watching them fail in the market.

Linux on tablets is going to face the same challenges. To operate not just the kernel but the applications using an interface that reports nothing more than a "click" at a screen address and do it well will require some very serious effort - and a willingness of the various programmers to support not only the keyboard / mouse version but the touch version as well. If we want to see successful Linux tablets this will need to be done - or else Linux can follow the Windows model and suffer the same fate.

Re:Time will tell if Android will succeed by MrCrassic · 2010-05-25 11:09 · Score: 3, Informative

I disagree. Android is a multi-touch OS through and through, and its stock form is simple enough to be used by most people (or at least those who would purchase an iPad otherwise), but is flexible enough under the hood to allow curious types to modify to their heart's content. While it's true that Apple provides all of the apps most users will want to use the tablet for, Android does the same thing AND allows alternatives. Don't like the stock browser? Download another from the Market. Want a better eBook reader or camera app? Download them from the Market. iPad/iPhone users don't have that option.

Additionally, Android has another huge advantage in the tablet arena: it's capable of TRUE multitasking for all applications. This is somewhat detrimental for a phone since battery life and memory is already limited, but is not as much of an issue for tablets, which are expected to be way more powerful and don't have to dedicate resources to the cell phone component. Getting similar multitasking on iPhoneOS is only possible through jailbreaking, which is a concern for a LOT of people, considering they either aren't technical enough to do it (yes, I know it's super easy) or are afraid of potentially long-term consequences associated with it. Basically, it makes the tablet that much closer to a computer, without the extra overhead.

Re:Time will tell if Android will succeed by gyrogeerloose · 2010-05-25 11:14 · Score: 2, Insightful

Your "car analogy" doesn't have anything to do with what you wrote.

Sure it does. He's saying that he no longer wants to be forced into dicking around to get his tablet computer to do what he needs it to do, much in the same way that he no longer wants a car that requires him to pop the hood and stick a pencil in the carburetor in order to get the engine started. He's also saying that the iPad is the equivalent of a newer car that just starts when he turns the key.

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This ain't rocket surgery.

it may work for me by bugs2squash · 2010-05-25 11:14 · Score: 2, Interesting

Truth is, I'm not looking for a replacement to my Laptop. I want something robust and minimal that I can take on the road from time to time. Maybe watch a movie or read pdfs on the plane, use to deliver my pre-prepared powerpoint, maybe touch up the powerpoint a little the day before the presentation when I find out I have mis-spelled someone's name. Allow me to keep some notes perhaps. Let me ssh into the servers at work if one of them needs attention while I'm travelling, maybe let me skype home from the hotel.
My needs are quite modest and, frankly, are tied to the application stack and the standard list of PC ports (VGA, USB etc.)
I'm not looking for a new computing paradigm, just something to fill a niche. Hell - I'm not so pure that I can't plug a wireless mouse into the thing if it helps. Something a little slicker than my netbook would be nice.

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Nullius in verba

Re:Time will tell if Android will succeed by WiseWeasel · 2010-05-25 11:14 · Score: 2, Insightful

"How is that flash video working out for you?"

It's blessedly absent, thank you for asking!

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"I like systems, their application excepted", George Sand (French)

Re:Time will tell if Android will succeed by gyrogeerloose · 2010-05-25 11:16 · Score: 2, Insightful

Android is selling more units than iphone at this point.

Not really. Roughly half of all those Android phones that were "sold" over the last quarter we're actually given away by Verizon.

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This ain't rocket surgery.

Re:Only Apple could convince the industry that... by gyrogeerloose · 2010-05-25 11:20 · Score: 2

I won't touch the iPad until it has a USB interface. Sometimes being able to add flash memory or a real keyboard is a good thing...

I agree that a real USB port would be a great addition to the iPad. In the mean time, however, any standard Bluetooth keyboard will work with one and Apple also sells one that will plug into the docking port.

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This ain't rocket surgery.

Re:Are you serious...?! by PopeRatzo · 2010-05-25 11:22 · Score: 4, Interesting

The iPad proved a tablet shouldn't be a portable computer

Sez you.

I think the iPad proved just how badly we need a tablet that IS a portable computer.

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You are welcome on my lawn.

Re:WebOS by Mordok-DestroyerOfWo · 2010-05-25 11:25 · Score: 2, Interesting

that is exactly the reason that IPhone apps smoke any other platform when it comes to performance.

So why not let the consumers decide? If apps written in Objective C or C++ will "smoke" the competition, what does Apple have to fear?

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"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right" - Salvor Hardin

Re:Does anyone praising the iPad actualy have one? by Mordok-DestroyerOfWo · 2010-05-25 11:28 · Score: 5, Insightful

For those of us running Linux or that choose not to install the bloatware that is iTunes on our PCs, yes...it is an arduous process. Simple documents such as music and pictures should have the capability to be dragged and dropped as if the iWhatever were just another removable drive.

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"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right" - Salvor Hardin

Re:Time will tell if Android will succeed by gyrogeerloose · 2010-05-25 11:29 · Score: 2, Insightful

Almost all iPhones were given away by AT&T, by that criteria.

No they weren't. All last quarter Verizon was running a two-for-one offer. Buy an Android phone (with a two-year contract, of course), get a second one for free. AT&T has offered nothing like that with the iPhone.

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This ain't rocket surgery.

Re:Time will tell if Android will succeed by sootman · 2010-05-25 11:33 · Score: 3, Informative

The android market is not fragmented in any meaningful way, if you target 1.5 or 1.6 it will run on everything later.

So I should ignore all the great new features that came out in 2.0 and 2.2? And continue to do so? What a fantastic solution!

From Wikipedia:

Issues concerning application development

Developers have reported that it is difficult to maintain applications working on different versions of Android, because of various compatibility issues between versions 1.5 and 1.6,[112][113] specifically concerning the different resolution ratios of the various Android phones.[114] Such problems were specifically encountered during the ADC2 contest.[115]
The rapid growth in the number of Android-based phone models with different hardware capabilities also makes it difficult to develop applications which work on all Android-based phones.[116][117][118][119]. As of May 2010, only 32% of Android phones run the 2.1 version, and 37% still run the 1.5 version[120]

Follow the links in the footnotes. This is not just "FUD from the Apple camp."

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Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.

Re:Are you serious...?! by man_of_mr_e · 2010-05-25 11:35 · Score: 3, Interesting

I agree to some extent.

Certainly, the iPad has it's place, and it's a popular place. It's going to destroy part of the ebook reader market, at least until color eInk shows up, and even then lack of backlight makes eInk difficult for a lot of people. I know, that's what makes it such a great ebook reader, lack of a backlight... but tell that to people that like to read in bed, or in low-light areas.

In any event, the iPad proves there's a market for a non-general purpose computer tablet. It does not prove that general purpose tablets will fail. To date they have because they keep trying to cram a full computer into a tablet, and they cost too freaking much.. but a netbook level computer with a tablet interface would be priced correctly, and would appeal to a lot of people as well.

Too many tablet makers price tablets outside their value proposition, they're too greedy.

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Re:Time will tell if Android will succeed by MrHanky · 2010-05-25 11:36 · Score: 2, Funny

No, he was writing about fragmentation of the market. He does not say a word about being forced to dick around -- which you correctly point out is what the "analogy" is about -- and neither does that have anything to do with the problems of the android platform. So basically, he plain forgot what his complaint was, and veered into the stale cliché of Macs "just working", and you support him because you're an idiot fanboy just like him.

Re:Doesn't Win7 have a "tablet mode"? by adonoman · 2010-05-25 11:41 · Score: 4, Insightful

I've had a Windows 7 slate for several months now (combo multitouch/stylus), and it works great for me. Windows 7's handwriting recognition is amazing. Multitouch gestures do leave something to be desired, but given that I have a directional pad on the side of the slate, I generally use those instead. With a full wacom digitizer, I can use photoshop and other pressure sensitive apps. It's bright enough that I can read in almost full sunlight. If I need to type, I just use a bluetooth keyboard. And of course, there's OneNote, which is really the single most important app I use. I've played with a friend's iPad a few times, and it really just seems like a cheap toy compared to what a real slate can do. The real reason PC-based slates haven't caught on (IMHO), is entirely based on the price point. A decent tablet costs $2000 or more - anything less and you're getting a piece of crap. Of course, at $2000, you alienate a very large portion of your potential market. Most PC manufacturers realized this, and stayed from tablets almost completely, not willing to make an expensive device that wouldn't sell, or an overly cheap device that wouldn't be worthwhile.

Apple's marketing magic has managed to create a market for cheap-ass crap slates, by not marketing them as computers, but rather as toys for grownups. They've lowered the functionality expectations, so people won't be disapointed with something barely more than a big cell-phone. I wouldn't even want to try Photoshop on an iPad if it were available. I'd give OneNote a shot if it existed for the iPad, but I wouldn't expect much from it.

Re:Or rather, anything Jobs says, goes. by dangitman · 2010-05-25 11:44 · Score: 3, Insightful

Windows 7's issue here isn't anything based on capabilies, design, or limitations. Its that "It wasn't approved by Apple fanboys" and nothing else.

Funny how not so long ago, Apple and its users were insignificant and doomed to obscurity, irrelevant in the face of the Windows behemoth, but now somehow "Apple fanboys" wield immense power to control entire industries.

Alternatively, it might be that your analysis is way off and not really based on reality. I wonder which is more likely?

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... and then they built the supercollider.

Re:Are you serious...?! by jo_ham · 2010-05-25 11:53 · Score: 3, Insightful

Well, it proved it in the sense that tablets with full desktop OSes have been on sale for many, many years and when the iPad went on sale it sold at twice the rate of the iPhone and continues at that pace even after the reviews are in.

There are already many tablets that are portable computers; they just don't sell well.

iPad/Android/WebOS tablet, however, looks like it has some promise.

Re:Time will tell if Android will succeed by Toreo+asesino · 2010-05-25 11:54 · Score: 4, Insightful

This is what I love about iPhoners.

"We don't want to be able to choose or not Flash video"

Seriously.

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throw new NoSignatureException();

Fail @ Comprehension by Myrcutio · 2010-05-25 12:19 · Score: 3, Insightful

The only thing the ipad proved is that the tablet market has been sorely neglected; the pent up market demand is palpable. There are still some very basic tasks that are well suited to a portable touchscreen device.

Printing is a big one, its not that hard to detect and download a printer driver automatically, every desktop OS does it and it's great.

The USB functionality, at the very least for (you guessed it, printers) and flash drives would make this the primary tool for a great many college students. Why tether a device to a desktop when the device is perfectly capable by itself of handling all kinds of file manipulation.

That last point is the singular reason i have no interest in owning an ipad, the network device and file support is in the dark ages. Even apple supported apps like the vaunted keynote remote are horribly buggy, slow, and unintelligent, often requiring router configuration without the help of man pages. Is it really that hard to believe that offices WANT a slick, intuitive interface for accessing and manipulating documents on a local network, a flash drive?

There's still alot of untapped market demand, the ipad only scratched the surface.

Re:Only Apple could convince the industry that... by BlueStraggler · 2010-05-25 12:22 · Score: 3, Insightful

Only Apple could convince the industry that limiting features is a good idea.

"Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." -- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, 16 years before Steve Jobs was born. Apple may have good taste, but they didn't invent it.

Re:Time will tell if Android will succeed by jo_ham · 2010-05-25 12:35 · Score: 2, Insightful

That's slightly skewed - this is the slow time for iPhone, especially with the 4G around the corner. There is no doubt that Android is making huge gains (I was in the O2 store yesterday and they had some lovely HTC handsets out on display with Android) - the real crunch is going to be how sales stack up when the 4G comes out.

Re:Does anyone praising the iPad actualy have one? by Azureflare · 2010-05-25 13:10 · Score: 3, Insightful

Do you own one?

I do, and I haven't hooked it up to iTunes since I bought it. Everything I need on it is synced through mobileme. The iTunes store, app store and book store are all on the iPad and respond very nicely. I dunno about other people, but that's my usage pattern.

I mainly use the iPad for movie watching, browsing the web on the toilet, and book reading. Basically what I use my iPhone for, but with a bigger screen and more access to other apps.

I wouldn't say it's a killer app but it's definitely a nice luxury item

Where the iPad really shines is travel. It's much better than bringing a laptop if all you want to do is watch movies, read books, and use Pages to jot down story ideas (something I do).

It's actually pretty handy if you have an awesome dream that gives you a really good idea for a story. I actually used it for that. I picked it up right when I was still groggy from sleeping and the dream was fresh in my mind and started plugging away at the onscreen keyboard. Sure, I made some typos but the general gist of the idea was there.

I wouldn't say that it's really worth the price ( I got the lowest end wifi version and really don't miss 3g at all). But it is a nice product to own.

Re:Only Apple could convince the industry that... by guyminuslife · 2010-05-25 13:13 · Score: 3, Funny

I have devised the perfect counter for that argument, marred only by this sentence.

--
I don't believe in time. It's a grand conspiracy designed to sell watches.

Re:Are you serious...?! by suomynonAyletamitlU · 2010-05-25 13:15 · Score: 4, Insightful

Let me rephrase it then: the iPad shows with crystal clarity the difference between a traditional GUI and a designed-for-touch GUI when using a tablet.

I'm not aware of any existing full-scale OS--including Linux--where existing applications can be cleanly ported to 'designed for touch' GUI. Therefore, if you want a designed-for-touch GUI, you need a designed-for-touch OS.

Now maybe Android will be exactly what you're looking for, with the right hardware--a full OS/GUI stack designed for touch with the power of a full computer. But so far, nobody else has really done it. I mean, hell, it is a good idea. I like to think that eventually a portable OS with an intuitive interface will merge with the full power of linux scripting, development, etc, on a processor strong enough to really carry the whole setup. However, I don't think that the iPad shows that restricted OS+Touch GUI is a bad combination.

Re:Are you serious...?! by jedidiah · 2010-05-25 13:30 · Score: 3, Interesting

Only twice the rate? This is pretty sad considering how CHEAP Apple's devices are.
Really, they are the "netbooks" of tablets. The PC tablets that have been around
for years and years are much more expensive and often ruggedized for real work.

A cheap device with an absurd amount of hype treated with kid gloves by the media
should be able to sell well.

The iPad has gotten more media hype than an atrocious Hollywood remake.

--
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.

Re:Does anyone praising the iPad actualy have one? by NekSnappa · 2010-05-25 13:30 · Score: 3, Informative

I have an iPad. I'm using to enter this post. I also have an iPod touch that I used for about a year for web surfing and reading e-books.

It's not meant to be a replacement for a full on computer. In fact when it was officially announced, and people trashed it as an overgrown iPod Touch my first thought was, "Great. Just what I was hoping for."

As far as needing

third party software and a ridiculous sync process

to add something to read. You're just wrong. I can download books from Amazon, or the book section of the iTunes store straight off of Wi-Fi or 3G on to the iPad.

I rarely use my home commuter for anything other than as an HTPC anymore. It fulfills my home commuting needs nicely. While at work I have a very powerful desktop to do my job. At home I have a tablet that allows me to surf, do personal email, and read books in any room, or on my deck, or in the parking lot.

--
I want to shoot the messenger!

What's Hypothetical about a Windows 7 Tablet? by fm6 · 2010-05-25 13:49 · Score: 2, Insightful

I'm writing this on one of them. Specifics:

http://www.motioncomputing.com/products/tablet_pc_le17.asp

True tablet, no keyboard, though it supports most USB keyboards (obviously). Runs Windows 7 just fine (ran Vista when I got it, which was a nightmare), and has really good handwriting recognition. Great for reading in bed. And being able to play Plants vs. Zombies with a stylus instead of a mouse nicely offsets my hand-eye coordination problems.

Which is not to say that I disagree with TFA about the economic viability of the thing. It's way too expensive, and if I weren't an overpaid geek who's willing to pay a huge premium just to have certain ubercool technologies, I wouldn't own one.

The iPad is overhyped, as are all Apple products. But so what? Even if it's just an overgrown iPod Touch (which means it's something I'd never bother with), there's obviously a market for it. On the train to work this morning, half my fellow commuters were passing the time on some kind of pocket device, and maybe a third of these were iPhones or iPads. Take one of these and give it a half-decent screen, and I think you've got a winner, even if it is a product most geeks would sneer at.

Re:Are you serious...?! by PopeRatzo · 2010-05-25 14:10 · Score: 4, Insightful

In any event, the iPad proves there's a market for

I guess I'm still surprised that here on Slashdot that there are people who form their preferences for technologies based on how well "they're doing in the market". Maybe it would be different if I ran an electronics store or an advertising agency. The fact that a lot of people are buying iPads might persuade me to buy Apple stock, but it's not going to persuade me to buy an iPad.

Honestly, the fact that people are lining up to buy something has never been a strong recommendation for me, any more than having a lot of advertisements for a particular technology indicates superiority. If it was, I'd be getting my technology news from Wired Magazine.

--
You are welcome on my lawn.

Re:Time will tell if Android will succeed by R3d+M3rcury · 2010-05-25 14:23 · Score: 2, Insightful

I still haven't quite figured this theory out yet.

Let's assume that's true (it's not like anyone else sells Android phones) and half of the phones were given away. Why did that happen and why is that a bad thing?

First, Verizon buys cellphones for wholesale and "sells" them at retail. So if they buy too many and don't sell them, they drop the price or include them in a buy-one-get-one free kind of deal in order to get them out of the warehouse so they can put newer and better ones in there. In this case, what they had was HTC Eris (branded by Verizon as the "Droid Eris") which is pretty wimpy by today's standards. So they gave those away.

If I'm a customer, I got an okay cellphone for "free." If I'm an Android developer, that's another Android handset out there, which means a potential customer. If I'm Google, it means one more person using Android and seeing my ads. If I'm HTC, I got paid a wholesale price for those phones that Verizon bought. So the only person I see being "screwed" by the Buy-One-Get-One-Free deal is...Verizon.

Another possibility, of course, is that it's HTC that got stuck with the huge inventory sitting in the warehouse and they decided to move those phones out so they sold them to Verizon at a deep discount, which gave them away in order to get more people to pay them $30 a month. This is the sort of thing that happens every day in a number of different businesses. Hell, even the all-mighty Apple has been known to discount last generation Macs. I even remember seeing last generation CRT iMacs being sold in CostCo! But when Apple does this, it's a good thing. When anyone else does it, it's a bad thing.

Now, if I'm an investor in HTC, it might make a difference to me (depending on how sales for the Eris were projected). But, again, as a customer, I got an okay cellphone for "free." As a developer, I have another potential customer. As Google, I have one more person who will see my advertising. As Verizon, I'm getting $30 a month from that person with the "free" cellphone. And, as HTC, I may not have made as much money on the HTC Eris as I thought I would.

I suppose my point is, why does it matter whether those phones were sold or were given away?

Re:Are you serious...?! by Totenglocke · 2010-05-25 14:59 · Score: 2, Informative

There are already many tablets that are portable computers; they just don't sell well.

Show me a tablet running a full OS that costs as little as $499. When you find a tablet running Windows that is in the same price range as the iPad, THEN you can compare how well they sell. Currently a tablet pc costs around $1,500-$2,000 - hardly a fair comparison since the overwhelming majority of people won't spend more than $700 on a computer. Hell, I only spent $900 on my quad-core, dual video card gaming system.

--
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson

Re:Actually it does demonstrate that by Alphathon · 2010-05-25 15:27 · Score: 3, Insightful

All that shows is that the iPad sells well, and that previous windows based tablets did not. Is the only possible reason for this that the iPad OS (i.e. iPhone OS) is good and Windows is bad? No. Maybe Apple is good at marketing (they are). Maybe their device is prettier than the previous brick-like Windows tablets that (it is). Perhaps they are targeting a different demographic with the iPad (they seem to be). There is more I could list.

So you have a tablet with a different OS selling well, how does that not demonstrate that Windows does not in fact work well on tablets?

A tablet running one OS that sells well does not mean that a different OS is bad. Lets use a good old car analogy...in America automatic transmissions seem to be more popular therefore manual transmissions don't work well on cars. That is patently false (I live in the UK and manual is much more popular here than automatic), but is equivalent to what you are saying. Saying one thing is good does not mean an alternative is bad. On top if that, sales do not equal performance, so you fail on two levels.

The only way your argument would hold up is if Apple released (at the same time and for a comparable price) an iPad with Win7 on it rather than iPhone OS, but it sold poorly. Even then it would only be an indication, not proof (the full OS version would likely be more expensive - I did say comparable price - and wouldn't be as pretty, so no "I want it!" impulse buyers).

I am not saying that Win7 has a better tablet interface than the iPhone OS on the iPad. What I am saying is that your argument is fundamentally flawed on several levels. There are many factors here that would effect sales, such as brand loyalty, aesthetics of both hardware and software, price, marketing, novelty factor, target demographic, size (windows tablets I have seen in the past have been quite a bit larger than the iPad) and so on, therefore you cannot draw the conclusion Windows doesn't work on tablets from multi-vendor sales comparisons. As a side note, do you know how many Windows tablets have been sold? It wouldn't surprise me at all if all the Windows tablets on the market well outstripped the iPad in sales...you just wouldn't notice it as it would be spread across multiple vendors and models. Incidentally, I think Apple is leading computer manufacturer, or at least up there but they still have a minuscule amount of the OS share since so many companies (and individuals) make Windows machines.

Re:If is a very big word. by WillyWanker · 2010-05-25 15:44 · Score: 2, Insightful

You do realize the iPad is running a modified version of OS X right?

The iPad also benefits from the established framework provided by the iPhone and iPod. Such a framework does not exist outside the Appleverse. You can't compare Apple products to non-Apple products any more than you can compare the Asian market to the US.

We've already gone thru this with the netbook. Linux netbooks didn't sell. Not because they didn't perform well but because people wanted a platform they were familiar with and that was compatible with the software they already own. Why does anyone think it's going to be any different with tablets? You think people are just gonna say "hey, so what if I need to learn to use a new OS, can't run any of the programs I normally use, and have to buy all-new apps from a locked down store?" No, they're gonna go "what the hell am I supposed to do with this thing that I don't know how to use and isn't compatible with anything I already own?"

Why is this so difficult to understand? The tablet market is already a limited one, much more so than the netbook. Why do you want to further marginalize it with the use of crippled OSs?

Re:Actually it does demonstrate that by SuperKendall · 2010-05-25 16:40 · Score: 4, Insightful

Is the only possible reason for this that the iPad OS (i.e. iPhone OS) is good and Windows is bad?

Yes, it is. Because it can be done, Windows has not done it through multiple iterations, that is exactly what it means.

Note that the fully qualified statement is really "Windows is Bad - for tablets".

There are other reasons that are also possibly true, but through each failed iteration they all became exceedingly unlikely. Now the essence of the thing has been boiled down, and even HP is fleeing Windows on tablets. If that doesn't complete the picture for you, you are staring too hard at the lines between the pieces and not looking at the image they make...

--
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley

Microsoft has failed to understand its developers by caywen · 2010-05-25 17:08 · Score: 2, Insightful

Microsoft just never quite understood its developer base as well as it should have. For decades, they kept API's incredibly archaic and unchanging because they fear abandonment. They were scared to death of putting out a brand new OS because they fear abandonment. That fear drove their decision making process.

So, it must have shocked them greatly that so many Windows developers just went ahead and wrote a ton of brand new code for iPhone. Like, 100,000 apps worth of code.

They never got it - developers *like* to write code. Just give them decent something to write *for*.

Re:Time will tell if Android will succeed by ppanon · 2010-05-25 20:22 · Score: 2, Insightful

Not really. It only matters if it's not sustainable. If the costs on the Android are low enough that HTC and Verizon still make money (maybe just not as much), and if the promotion gets them word-of mouth advertising and mindshare that would have required more money to secure through just advertising, then it's still a win for them. Were Verizon hemorrhaging customers to AT&T iPhone contracts and did this campaign help them retain customers profitably?

To put it another way, Windows PCs outsell macs by a huge margin and the price tag is a big part of the reason for that. People don't argue that the sales prices on Windows PCs mean that their market share can't be compared to that of Macs. I don't see why that line of reasoning would apply any more to Android vs. iPhone.

--
Laissez lire, et laissez danser; ces deux amusements ne feront jamais de mal au monde. - Voltaire

Re:Actually it does demonstrate that by drinkypoo · 2010-05-25 23:36 · Score: 2, Insightful

So you have a tablet with a different OS selling well, how does that not demonstrate that Windows does not in fact work well on tablets?

This is the stupidest thing I've ever seen you say. Please don't do it again.

So you have a car with a gasoline engine selling well, how does that not demonstrate that diesel engines in fact do not work well in cars?

So you have a blender with white paint selling well, how does that not demonstrate that black paint does not work well on a blender?

I can say shit this stupid all day, but I can feel my IQ dropping.

--
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"

You all need another angle. by pizzach · 2010-05-26 01:08 · Score: 3, Insightful

Perhaps, but there are enough exceptions. Was the first netbook by Asus hyped to extreme proportions? Is the Macbook Air selling wildly or is it eventually going to be quietly discontinued? Hyping isn't everything, but it helps. Now please, read my reasoning below.

Let's look at this from an interestingly different other angle. Here on slashdot people blame Apple for advertising they have a tablet whose main feature is that it is more of a flexible appliance than a computer. If you go to a video game website, when a good game doesn't sell well, all the gamers start blame the company for not advertising enough. (Particularly on the Wii.) Both Dell and Microsoft are much larger than Apple. They regarded tablets as niche for all these years and done their best to avoid advertising them all together. Apple did too considering a third party company started making the ridiculously expensive "Modbooks".

Why are people not blaming Microsoft and the computer makers for sitting around doing nothing for 10 years? Apple hypes their new products much like a console maker, but come on guys. You don't take the initiative, you don't get the cookie. If it wasn't Apple with the iPad, it was going to be Amazon with a future revision of the ereader. PC industry have their heads so far up their asses with the status quo they didn't have a chance in hell of making a breakout product with the public in this segment.

--
Once you start despising the jerks, you become one.

Re:Are you serious...?! by ThrowAwaySociety · 2010-05-26 02:52 · Score: 2, Insightful

In any event, the iPad proves there's a market for

I guess I'm still surprised that here on Slashdot that there are people who form their preferences for technologies based on how well "they're doing in the market". Maybe it would be different if I ran an electronics store or an advertising agency. The fact that a lot of people are buying iPads might persuade me to buy Apple stock, but it's not going to persuade me to buy an iPad.

Honestly, the fact that people are lining up to buy something has never been a strong recommendation for me, any more than having a lot of advertisements for a particular technology indicates superiority. If it was, I'd be getting my technology news from Wired Magazine.

OP didn't say that the iPad was the greatest thing ever, or that you, as Joe Average Slashdotter, should immediately buy one. OP just said that it was successful and that there were lessons to be learned from its success.

Slashdotters focus on the iPad's limitations and the restrictions Apple places on it. Fair enough. But when a limited, restricted devices like the iPad succeed, you have to wonder, what does it have that makes people buy it anyway? The popular response from Slashdot is: well, the people who buy it are either brainwashed fanboys, fashion-conscious posers, or idiots with more money than brains.

The really smart people are taking notes on how marketing, product positioning, user experience, and industrial design wins out over limitations and restrictions in the mind of the body public. You can bet that Steve Ballmer and Microsoft are watching and learning from the iPad's success very carefully, even if they don't plan to buy iPads for their children this Christmas.

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Why Windows 7 "Slate" Tablets Won't Happen

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