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Foxconn Workers Getting Raise With Apple Subsidies
hackingbear writes "Workers at Taiwanese electronic outsourcing manufacturer Foxconn are getting a pay raise after a series of 13 suicides, including three in three consecutive days. According to an article by state-run newspaper China Daily, Apple concluded that the main cause of the suicides is low wages. (The media has also attributed the suicides to a variety of other factors — everything from the semi-military style of management, to long overtime, to China's one-child policy, and Foxconn paying too much compensation to the family of suicide workers, thereby encouraging copycat suicides.) Apple plans to subsidize raises using its own products (Google translation; Chinese original here) — the first one being the iPad. This would raise the outsourcing cost from 2.3% to 3% of the iPad's sales price. The article does not say the amount of the raise per worker, but it is rumored to be about 20%, according to other Chinese news sources."
That enough of their souls are still poured into these incredible, sleek products to maintain the extremely high level of magic and wonder we've become accustomed to finding in each amazingly designed box.
Because despite the fact that FoxConn make stuff for all sorts of people in the consumer electronics world, all the bile and invective seems to fall on Apple's shoulders.
No doubt, Apple actually trying to help will be seen negatively too - let's see if any of the subsequent comments say so (my money's on yes...). Honestly, the anyone-but-apple brigade make the fanboys look calm, collected, and sane.
Simon
Physicists get Hadrons!
Now Apple will jack up the price on iPads by 20%!
It would raise the cost to Apple by .7 percent per iPad. I think that Apple intends on eating that difference rather than passing it on to the consumer.
Jesus was a compassionate social conservative who called individuals to sin no more.
You can do anything you set your mind to when you have vision, determination, and an endless supply of expendable labor.
The other companies that are getting their components from Foxconn? Are they doing anything?
-- Linux user #369862
Foxconn also sells branded mainboards of their own, etc. How about they just increase the pay at their factories, and up prices a buck or two? Two bucks means nothing to me, if they want to pass that onto the consumer I'm willing to open my wallet.
I wish my coworkers jumped off the building.
Fuck systemd. Fuck Redhat. Fuck Soylent, too. Wait, scratch the last one.
Encourage more suicides? Yeah, I'm gonna kill myself for more pay
I'm under the impression that the workers there already make relatively more than most similar jobs, and a 20% raise doesn't seem like it will make much of a life-changing difference for anyone (especially if they don't have time to spend it :P)
And just how far can money go to compensate you for hellish working conditions?
So why not give them some more breaks / shorter hours each day?
G.
If they increase the salaries over the market, then the competition of workers for getting a job in that factory will increase, thus leading to more stress/overworking/stajanovism/burn-out/suicides... This is the kind of stupidity that unions usually advocate for. It is however very good if you have your post warranted for life, for example if you are a french functionarie (public servant). Of course, the people who are trying to get a permanent post in that factory will have a toughter live (think for example of the young residents trying to get a job in medicine, or graduate students). Ah, if only the salaries in my profession would go down...
but it got rejected.
It's not Apple's plant, it's Foxconn's. I like how everyone is blaming Apple first for the suicides caused by another company and then when they try and fix a problem they didn't cause, people blast them for that too.
Well, it has never been successfully tested.
Honda is raising wages due to a strike. Let's hope this catches on (no, not the suicides, though I admit it's an interesting tactic).. Good to see people standing up for their rights.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
I'm sure they're happy to have a bit more money but if you're working serious overtime I'd think they'd rather work fewer hours rather than some pittance of a pay rise.
I got curious as to how Foxconn's suicide rate compared to other groups. The United States' suicide rate is 11.1 per 100,000 people. Foxconn employs somewhere around 800,000 people(!) which means by the end of the year, you'd expect a death count by suicide of around 90 people.
If the current rates holds, there'll be 50 more Foxconn employees alive at year's end than there will be Americans from a comparably sized city.
Why should we let Apple (or any other company) abdicate responsibility for their supply chain? If Apple chooses to work with Foxconn, then Apple is on the hook for ensuring Foxconn is a reputable and humane supplier.
Or is it okay to let a company like Apple accrue the benefits of outsourcing (i.e. lower prices, more flexible manufacturing, etc.) while ignoring negative consequences (i.e. environmental damage, inhumane working conditions, etc.)?
If libertarians are so opposed to effective government, why don't they all move to Somalia?
It is Apple's fault: They're the ones that hired Foxconn.
If I'm building a house, and my general contractor hires a subcontractor to install the flooring and they do a lousy fucking job, I blame the contractor, not the sub.
Likewise, with Apple: If Apple is building Ipads and hires a subcontractor to put them together, and that subcontractor has unsavory conditions that foster suicidal tendancies, I blame Apple. Why? At the end of the day, it's their name on the box -- not Foxconn.
Kid-proof tablet..
Well you look like an Apple-hater by only mentioning Apple and none of the other manufacturing companies that use Foxconn. Come on give us another post that is fair and unbiased - list the other manufacturers using Foxconn and what they're doing to prevent needless loss of life.
they try and fix a problem they didn't cause,
Apple really doing that? I hope Apple will soon be sainted so it won't be working with the devil any more.
If I were an evil genius, I would offer to pay the workers more AND pressure the other companies using Foxconn to increase wages. After driving up my competitor's costs, I would shift my manufacturing to a cheaper labor market in SE Asia. For purely ethical reasons, of course.
I dunno. If I have a factory, or in this case a small city, that makes products for one company, to that companies designs and that companies security compliance rules how separate is it really? Sure Foxconn sells to anybody who pays, but the facility in question seems to be primarily an apple factory that allows apple to skirt around running it's own high tech sweatshop. Granted that's sort of the point of doing business in the PRC in the first place.
part of the problem here seems to be that this factory has 400k employees. I live in London ontario and we have 400k people, and this is, by canadian standards a decent sized place. The sheer scale of this sort of operation is mind boggling to most westerners. How does the suicide rate for their 400k employees compare to walmart, or GE or the like?
Apple (or any other company)
Care to try again genius?
If libertarians are so opposed to effective government, why don't they all move to Somalia?
Who says that FoxConn is not just going to take the extra money as profit rather than give that money in the form of raises? The country is horribly corrupt at government and company levels.
Apple's just paying lip service.
I have to wonder whether the modern western world can only survive on slavery, with outsourcing being a convenient way to hide it.
"Screw Sun, cross-platform will never work. Let's move on and steal the Java language." - Visual J++ Product Manager
By giving in, the people who committed suicide are getting exactly what they wanted, and will do this the next time they want a pay raise. Oh, wait...
For reference, other major brands who use Foxconn include:
Intel
Dell
Zoostrom
Sony
Nintendo
Microsoft (yes, all 3 major consoles come from Foxconn, at least partially)
Motorola
Amazon Kindle
Cisco
Hewlett-Packard
ATI
Most have issued statements regarding the number of suicides at the factory. But none other than Apple, as far as I'm aware, have taken steps this large and publically towards resolving the problem.
The ______ Agenda
Here we can strike.
Though sometimes the police are brought in, it's hardly ever that bloody.
The Jobs way would be that you could only get abused by Jobs himself, but with Ballmer you can be abused by anyone (be it Ballmer himself, Windows NT kernel designer Cutler or an ISV that makes shitty apps).
who said they worked 12 hour shifts with no days off.
The excuses about labor supply and demand, and how the factory is an improvement over a Chinese farm, are bullshit. If it was really like that, they could cut pay in half, use 4 shifts instead of 2 (or whatever the current scheme is), and give the workers an option of working double. Or some other such improvement. As it is, its just an abuse of power. As screwed up as organized labor has been in the US, this is what happens when you don't have it at all.
And yes, Apple is culpable, and so are all of us that own products by companies who use Foxconn. When a company is making profits, and its executives are earning large salaries and bonuses, the market isn't forcing them to do what they do. They can always scale back the size of their mansions a little bit.
So then the question becomes: Why does Apple buy parts from suppliers who run sweatshops?
Any company the size of Apple knows exactly what's going on at the factories of their major suppliers. I guarantee that the contract that Apple has with Foxconn specifies all sorts of things that have very little to do with the specifications of the part supplied. Very often a company like Apple will enter into a contract and then tell the contractor "You're going to have to cut prices by another 20% or we're tearing up the contract and good luck suing us, and you're just going to have to figure out a way to do it." Wal-mart is famous for these kind of tactics, squeezing suppliers who then turn around and squeeze their employees.
If there are bad conditions at one of Apple's major suppliers' facilities, those conditions are being tacitly approved by Apple. Anybody here who has entered into a contractual relationship to supply a major part of another companies product knows exactly how specific those contracts can get. If Apple has decided to "subsidize" pay raises for Foxconn employees, it's because they know exactly how dirty their own hands are in this matter.
You are welcome on my lawn.
Why should we let Apple (or any other company) abdicate responsibility for their supply chain?
I'm not saying we should. It's just disingenuous to call it "Apple's plant" which I've seen repeated over and over again. Lots of companies contract Foxconn and Apple seems to be the only one trying to fix the problem so why are they the one being singled out for criticism.
Well, it has never been successfully tested.
If the cost goes from 2.3% to 3% that's a .7% increase. Proportionally that's nearly 1/3 to keep things simple.
Given that manufacturing costs have more than just the labor component, how can it only manage a salary lift of 20% when proportionally they're giving away more (and that covers everything)?
Society is better off without suicidal people, they probably weren't trying that hard anymore anyway.
I don't have any need to use any Apple OSes so cannot comment, but can you please explain to me how Microsoft documentation is better than for Linux?
No, Linux documentation isn't perfect and most people hate reading man pages, I agree. But from my perspective, I'm quite "rusty" with Windows because for the past 10 years or so I've focused mostly on Linux. I don't "hate" Windows by any means but if I need to get the answer to a Linux question or a Windows one then without getting the answer from a phone call to a local expert, I need to search the web or read a book for the answer - and the process to get the answer from the web usually involves some Google searching whereupon I stumble across it.
I don't *see* a great difference in the approach for either OS, to be honest. Sure, I accept a Windows expert can probably fly around the Microsoft support site like the best of them but I haven't see too many thickly bound user manuals for the Windows products I've used in my time.
I think a lot of this "urban legend" comes from the fact that there are more people familiar with Windows than with Linux and therefore far more newbie users on Linux than Windows - but it does work both ways, believe me.
Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
Personally, I am not so sure giving the workers a raise is the most efficient way for the company to prevent the suicides. I have never known anyone to commit suicide simply because they felt they weren't making enough money. The more likely culprit, I think, is high stress levels - which may be caused by having trouble making ends meet due to inadequate wages, but would surely also be related to the working environment and the workload. Rather than raising wages by 20%, I would think that, say, hiring 20% more people to lighten the load would be more effective. Probably, the suicides are caused by a combination of factors, which suggests that they are also best combated by a combination of improvements.
Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
You do realize pretty much every computer on the planet has components from Foxconn in it ... right?
I guaranty you that the computer you used to post has components they make in it.
Unless you plan on no longer using a car, your PC, probably your TV and several other devices, you won't be doing a damn thing to 'stop the problem'.
Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
Here OP, let me make an analogy to explain why Apple is not entirely responsible, only partially, for Foxconn.
Why should we let the OP (or any other poster) abdicate responsibility for their supply chain? If OP chooses to work with a grocery store, then OP is on the hook for ensuring the grocery store is a reputable and humane supplier.
Or is it okay to let a poster like OP accrue the benefits of outsourcing (i.e. not having to have a farm or barter with farmers directly) while ignoring negative consequences (i.e. environmental damage, inhumane working conditions, etc.)?
See how silly that sounds? Now, in reality responsibility scales proportionally to percentage of gross sales you make up for your supplier. OP to his grocery is a many to one relationship, giving him little responsibility. Apple to Foxconn is a few to one relationship, giving apple more, but not total responsibility. However, when a supplier has only one customer, that customer has total responsibility.
It's been shown that you have an infinitesimally small but real chance of not actually existing. It's difficult to aim for 100% when the best reality itself can offer is 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999%
I blame Planck myself.
Deleted
Apple could have chosen a company that has 1st world labor laws.
Lets not kid ourselves here - the only reason they outsource all this crap to China (or name your own low wage destination) is because it provides a greater profit return. It has little to do with how much something costs. Make no mistake - one of the reasons Apple is worth more as a company even though they ship less than their competitors is because they have very high profit margins.
Nuff said.
When you outsource to foreign lands that force workers to sleep on the assembly lines, and in the factories... for 65 cents an hour, you're supporting slavery. (This is the common work condition of chinese labor)
I'm sorry. Apple wanted to cheat the economic system by not hiring Americans, because we have lives and high expenses due to the cost of living in America. Why pay Americans who only want to work and have a home and healthcare, when you can hire Chinese slaves who are easily replaced no matter how many of them commit suicide.
Fuck every corporation that sold America out.
None of them give a shit. Slavery was always the goal. We outlawed it in the US.. but not overseas.
The US Workers who demanded a modest life style, home and health care... were sold out by those companies who would rather employ slaves, then Americans because its more profitable and slaves are easy to abuse.
Isn't the suicide rate for FoxConn employees somewhat less than the population of China as a whole?
Getting a job at FoxConn would actually reduce your tendency to commit suicide.
At the profit margins Apple runs, they could probably afford to manufacture the iPad here in the USA in a prexisting plant under contract. One of the (many) reasons why they probably don't do this is because we don't have the kind of manufacturing plants here in the US with the capacity to handle those kinds of volumes.
moox. for a new generation.
Everyone thinks Apple products are to die for and this just proves it! Don't stop now Apple!
Sure Foxconn sells to anybody who pays, but the facility in question seems to be primarily an apple factory that allows apple to skirt around running it's own high tech sweatshop
Really? Any data to back that up?
FWIW, I opened up a dell today and because of all these recent news articles just happened to notice the SATA cable has a nice big sticker on it saying "Foxconn"
The suicide rate among foxconn workers is not only lower than for the population of China in general, but also lower than every US state. Every suicide is a tragic event, but I'm not buying the contention that their jobs are driving them to do it.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
You guys think 5 dollars a day or 6 dollars a day is going to make these workers suddenly be able to afford health care and better living conditions?
Why do you think a 0.7% price increase can raise their wages 20%, because they are paid waaaaay waaaay way way way way way way way way way way less than they should be. Then they deserve!!!
Fuck you, you self righteous apply pricks, you make an average of 50 dollars and hour and think paying these people a extra dollar a day is suddenly like your the most generation pricks in the universe.
The best way to improve these people's condition is to not buy these companies shit unless they pay decent wages at the factory level, rather than skim billion in profit personally each year. FUCK YOUR LOCAL CEO they are stealing from us, but mostly stealing from the people that can afford it the least.
``Why should we let Apple (or any other company) abdicate responsibility for their supply chain?''
Well, I see it like this: Apple (or any other company) wants something manufactured. So they approach some manufacturers to make them an offer. Foxconn (or any other bidder) says "We can do it for so and so much." Among all the bidders, Foxconn has the most attractive offer, and Apple believes they will be able to make good on it, so they sign the deal.
Is that all there is to it? Well, pretty much yes. If Apple didn't trust Foxconn enough, they probably wouldn't sign the deal. This trust can cover anything from fear that Foxconn might go belly up before having delivered, to causing negative press for Apple. In the end, there is no real way for Apple to be certain that such events will happen, or will not happen, if they sign the deal with any of the bidders. The best they can do is make a risk assessment, pick the winner of the bid, encourage them to do the right thing, work with them to help them do the right thing, and help fix things if things still go wrong. And it seems to me that this is exactly what they are doing.
``If Apple chooses to work with Foxconn, then Apple is on the hook for ensuring Foxconn is a reputable and humane supplier.''
I think that's debatable. Certainly, you may _like_ Apple to try its best to ensure that every supplier they work with is reputable and humane. And maybe they are doing that. They are, after all, paying extra to support the plan to curb the suicides. But even if Apple do their best, there is only so much they can do. They don't control Foxconn, and, last I checked, Apple didn't have a standing army or a special ops unit that could force Foxconn to do what Apple would like them to do. So it's really Foxconn that has to fix things - Apple can only encourage them, help them, and, if that fails, walk away from Foxconn and distance themselves from Foxconn's practices should Foxconn not clean up its act. So I really thing "ensuring" is too strong. Apple can't do that, so it's unreasonable to expect that of them.
Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
I think your summary is simplistic. Apple's move here is nice but it does nothing to give their users freedoms they deserve (like controlling their own computers so they're not victims of Apple's "kill switch" where Apple can remotely deny any user some program on Apple's whim). This move does nothing to provide developers with reasonable terms for distributing programs on their app store (EFF has highlighted the awful terms). And Apple can decide to discontinue this at any moment, returning the workers to their former state of more unfair pay.
Ultimately decent pay for work should not be subject to corporate largesse. A living wage should be guaranteed by all governments so businesses can't take advantage of workers and maintain an environment that apparently leads to suicides. It's the system in which Apple has the power to do this that deserves challenge; that system must be changed so people can make gadgets and enjoy a living wage at the same time. A profit-before-everything race to the bottom won't do that.
Digital Citizen
Remember this story the next time you try to defend our all-mighty corporations' choice of offshoring every single job possible with the simple-minded argument of American workers just can't compete; they need to toughen up, take a lower standard of living, work harder, become better educated, etc, etc...
In a globalized world, there will always exist a shit-hole even worse than the last. Uless your idea of being more competitive really means accepting conditions so poor that death seems a valid alternative to a rather significant portion of the work-force, you might want to start thinking of a better argument.
None of them give a shit. Slavery was always the goal. We outlawed it in the US.. but not overseas.
The US Workers who demanded a modest life style, home and health care... were sold out by those companies who would rather employ slaves, then Americans because its more profitable and slaves are easy to abuse.
More like the corporations are hostage to their financial performance and stock price. Who holds them hostage? The retirement plans with billions invested and expect their 10 -15% ROI. The beneficiaries of those plans? Grandmom and Granddad who retire comfortably at 55, 60, 62... You can't demand exceptional financial results from companies and corporations and handcuff their options to deliver those results. It's called Capitalism - the only incentive that gets people to produce more time and again is personal financial gain.
From what I've read, which isn't much, Foxconn is one of the better places to work there. So not only is it not Apple's doing, I don't think it's Foxconn's doing either, or rather, if Foxconn is to blame, all other Chinese companies that are exploiting their workers even worse are also to blame, as well as the Chinese government that allows it's citizens to be exploited without protections, as well as the archaic Chinese culture that dictates if you fail in some way you must commit suicide to salvage your family's honor (or some batshit crazy garbage), as well as the individual Chinese sense of identity, which has been manipulated for millennia by sometimes brilliant and sometimes brutal cultural leaders. I mean... I know there's a billion of them... but there's got to be a better way. What would happen if tomorrow China was suddenly just like the US, and all the Chinese had all the great things US citizens think they have (regarding freedoms and individual self-determination)? What's the worst that could happen?
The Admin and the Engineer
that guy who lost iphone was killed
From the economist*:
The toll (a dozen this year) is lower than the suicide rate among the general population in China. But the deaths have raised questions about working conditions in electronics manufacturing in general and in particular at Foxconn, which keeps its customers secret, rarely opens its plants to outsiders and routinely ignores press inquiries.
What is the suicide rate at other companies? I'm truly curious. I would like to understand why everyone is up in arms about this. And what about Dell and HP and any number of other companies that also use Foxconn?
source
You're so stuck on hating Apple that you don't even know what the other companies are.
Let's blame the Amazon or Microsoft, maybe Cisco or Nintendo. See where I'm going here.
While Apple has their products made by Foxconn, they make much more for other people. Maybe go knocking on their doors and asking them why they don't give their workers a 20% raise.
Just keep typing away with arrogance on your computer made by Foxconn.
The chinese will forever be brainwashed into thinking foreigners are evil and that the slave way of life in factories like KYE and Foxconn is the norm.. and if you dont like it, too bad, go commit suicide, they will replace you with yet another mindless slave.
If Apple chooses to work with Foxconn, then Apple is on the hook for ensuring Foxconn is a reputable and humane supplier.
Why? Why isn't Foxconn, the Chinese gov't, Intel, Dell, Sony, Nintendo, etc, on the hook?
Or is it okay to let a company like Apple accrue the benefits of outsourcing (i.e. lower prices, more flexible manufacturing, etc.) while ignoring negative consequences (i.e. environmental damage, inhumane working conditions, etc.)?
Apparently it's okay to hold Apple to a different standard because fanboys are annoying.
"I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)
Because if you support someone who supports an abuser, you support the abuse. That is in part what Franklin meant by "He who lies down with dogs gets up with fleas".
No, Apple is not worth more than its competitors because of profit margins. They have never paid a dime in dividends to their investors.
It is Foxconn's plant when referring to Apple quality.
It is Apple's plant when referring to working conditions.
It is Foxconn's plant when referring to Apple ripping off the customer.
It is Apple's plant when referring to worker suicides.
etc.
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
I want to buy shares from that company.
It is way better than the ones I have seen in real life where upper management screws everybody and everything to get their short term bonuses at whatever cost it takes. Of course I am talking about the big corporations where the capital is so distributed that it is difficult to get a significative minority 5% outside the boards that could oppose them.
Why can't
Does that mean it's your fault (yes you) that your state has a higher suicide rate than Foxconn? After all, you elected your state government who has done nothing to stamp out suicides... At the end of the day, it's your vote in the box, not your elected representative's.
Those are wonderful working conditions compared to most of China in most of its history. Tough, but hardly as tough as working in a steel mill.
Kudos to the workers if they can get more money, but plenty of people in the rest of the world would kill for a job that good.
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
From everything I've read recently about the state of Internet usage in China, and an Asian friend of mine who just got back from spending 2 weeks over there .... I'm not so sure Google pulling out of China was as meaningful as people like to claim?
The vast majority of Chinese citizens seem to use their OWN web sites for various things. They have a big multi-user chat network (called YY, I believe), and they have their own version of Facebook over there too. They prefer native sites for the same reasons we Americans generally only use Western-based sites; we'd rather use sites written in our own native language!
Sure, there's an "underground" of political dissidents and rabble-rousers who want to spread the word about govt. corruption and so forth, and such activities are strictly prohibited by the Chinese government. But those people are already using encryption technologies as well as launching things from U.S. based sites, so as to make it harder to locate them. They, for example, might host articles on a U.S. based Google Apps account, or set up a U.S. based Twitter feed where news updates are sent out in Mandarin.
Ultimately, by pulling out of China, Google won a lot of positive P.R. from the West, while reducing some exposure to Asian hackers - so it wasn't "all pain, no gain" for them. And they'll continue to provide useful search and other tools to the Chinese who need them anyway. They'll simply have to go to a bit more trouble to get there.
As for Apple resembling a totalitarian state? Only if you believe a private business shouldn't ever be able to exert controls and limitations on the goods they sell!
Far from there being some "giant bureaucracy of app store censors", it appears to me their problem may largely be a LACK of people to review new uploads! One of the biggest complaints seems to be with the delays in approval of apps. As for not being able to say bad things about Apple? Not sure exactly what you're referring to here -- but I'm pretty sure MOST companies wouldn't allow software to be published by their own company that put their name and products in a bad light. (Ever see any Sony PS3 game releases or Nintendo Wii games that disparage their respective brands?)
The whole "porn" thing is overblown and shows a lack of understanding of the big picture by a lot of people, I think. Yes, Steve Jobs has personally said he doesn't really want a bunch of porn available on Apple products like the iPad and iPhone. So what? That's just as often a selling point as it is a negative, depending on who's buying. But most importantly, most of the porn sellers on the Internet have proven to be unscrupulous, cheating and lying bastards who just want to make an easy buck. Look how many PAID porn sites out there make attempts to infect your PC with spyware/ad-ware! They're not even satisfied taking your money... they still want to hijack your computer for more profit! Do you really want to associate your devices with/do business with those people? I don't blame Apple for taking a pass on it.
Playboy is a valid exception to the rule because #1, they're really only "soft porn". Playboy has quite a few limitations in place on what they will/won't show in their magazines and they have decades of evidence they've been consistent on that. #2, they're a legitimate publishing business that HAS proven itself more trustworthy to do business with than many others out there. They're not the "only, designated porn distributors" for the iPad/iPhone -- but they're certainly one of only a FEW long-standing print publishers of porn that has clear "standards". (Frankly, I don't know that others like Penthouse have even approached Apple about doing an app? But I wouldn't be surprised if they'd get a "green light" too, because again, they've got a pretty established business that DOESN'T just think customers are there to take advantage of with spyware and questionable billing practices, etc. etc.)
Not the loss of life, obviously. But there is an economic statement under all of this that is good news, somewhat.
If China has to try that hard to be competitive, and is now beginning to have their workers demand either more money or death - this might be the beginning of the end for outsourcing. If things are truly that bad in China to where people are willing to kill themselves in protest then they must surely be at the limits of their capacity. All they can do from here is make concessions to their workers and become less globally competitive.
It is a shame people had to die to make the point though. But it is a point worth making.
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
You guys think 5 dollars a day or 6 dollars a day is going to make these workers suddenly be able to afford health care and better living conditions?
Why would that matter.
You may not remember, but China is a full-on communist state, with health care for all for free.
As for housing, they already are required to live at Foxconn to work there. So there's nothing better (or worse) to buy.
Fuck you, you self righteous apply pricks, you make an average of 50 dollars and hour and think paying these people a extra dollar a day is suddenly like your the most generation pricks in the universe.
Generation?
They aren't necessarily saying they are generous, just trying to improve conditions for the workers in what ways they can. Remember that Foxconn makes things for tons of other people, it's not like Apple can really dictate hours or much beyond pay.
I think you are also forgetting what life is like in the culture around them, you simply cannot compare $5/hour here and there directly as you are. Well, you can, but it's simply ignorant to do so.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Isn't the suicide rate for FoxConn employees somewhat less than the population of China as a whole?
Getting a job at FoxConn would actually reduce your tendency to commit suicide.
Depends really. What ages are FoxConn employees? From what I know of suicide cases, most are done by either late teens/retiring aged workers, both whom have the most gloomy outlooks on life (the teen by no longer having mom and dad and seeing them having worked all their life and got no where leaving the image of the future is hopeless, the elderly for having no more job options and minimal retirement funds). Now if FoxConn doesn't employee these ages then that could very well make their rate of suicides higher since most of the suicide 'population' isn't part of FoxConn's payroll.
Attention... all grammer nazi"s! Is they're anything; wrong with: my post,
Does that mean it's your fault (yes you) that your state has a higher suicide rate than Foxconn? After all, you elected your state government who has done nothing to stamp out suicides... At the end of the day, it's your vote in the box, not your elected representative's.
No, because my vote is in the long run, just a drop in the bucket and doesn't hold any future sway to what actions the elected representative takes while in office. It would be the elected representatives fault though. And in this case, Apple is very capable of taking their business elsewhere, meaning they hold all the power in this deal and hold a LOT of options that can very well control what this business does. If the company is preforming actions that Apple felt was wrong then they take their money elsewhere, not turn away and hope things just get better.
Attention... all grammer nazi"s! Is they're anything; wrong with: my post,
The parent post is a concise response to the anti-Apple drivel that regularly gets spouted on Slashdot.
It is true that there is a perception that Apple products are far more expensive - but only because Apple doesn't make anything that competes feature-wise in the low end of the market. When comparing like to like, their prices are only marginally higher than offerings from Dell/HP/Lenovo/etc.
This is a bad precedent to set for what is essentially extortion.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
1. Get employed by Foxconn.
2. Commit suicide.
3. Profit!
many countries over there need to bone up on teaching their citizens the sanctity of life.
this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom. -- Lincoln, Gettysburg Address
Apple (or any other company)
Care to try again genius?
Tell me how many you employ in manufacturing.
While the rate is overall less, the means is what really matters. All of the suicides (afaik) have been jumps from a building. Jumping off a building makes a very bold, very public statement. Plus, it guarantees the jumper's family something like 110,000 yuan; that's over $16k in US! To the worker making less than $1k/month, that's a big chunk of change to "give" to your family. It's very sad, and it's good to see someone (Apple) at least making some effort toward the positive. No one should feel like they have to choose suicide.
For the last time, PIN Number and ATM Machine are redundancies!
Probably what he is too an "apple genius".
to tell us that if we just repeal all of those pesky workers' rights laws that corporations will, out of the goodness of their hearts, afford their workers such unaffordable luxuries as unpaid days off, an eight-hour day, overtime pay, a (gasp!) minimum wage, etc.
What most people don't realize is what life is like for factory workers in China. I have worked in China, and I can tell you that 12 hours shifts is not uncommon. You could make 15 hour shifts and people there would still line up to get a job, because the alternative is starvation. It's easy to criticize from a distance, but there is more to this than just a single company. The whole society and economy leads to this situation. Furthermore, what we aren't hearing here in the west is that after the first suicide, Foxconn employed a large number of psychiatric workers to come and talk to employees. The simple fact is, most of these suicides will be because most people in China are worth more dead than they are alive.
The first employee committed suicide after he was demoted for losing an iphone. Note, not fired, just demoted. After he took the dive, Foxconn payed a large sum, including IIRC a monthly fee, to the family of the worker. This money was considerably more than the worker would make. Shortly after, more suicides happened, and Foxconn payed more money to those families. This is how it is; the employees make more money for their families by dying than by staying and working, and this situation is not unique to this company. One of the women who committed suicide did so because of a personal relationship (I'm not sure of the exact nature, I didn't catch that part on the news here), and Foxconn still payed money to the family. AFAIK, Foxconn has recently made a new policy, wherein if an employee commits suicide without asking one of the companies employees for help, no compensation will be payed to the family.
It is a terrible situation, but blame cannot be heaped solely at the feet of this one company. This is just reality for factory workers in China. It is similar to child labor. All will agree that it is a terrible thing, but how much blame really lies at the companies who employ children? Sure, it's easy to blame them, but if they didn't employ those children, another company would. Why? Because without employment, many children are unable to feed themselves, and far too often their whole families as well. In this respect, China is no different from, say, India. Many parts of China, mostly the large cities, are becoming quite modern, but most of the country is still in the stone ages.
If the company is preforming actions that Apple felt was wrong then they take their money elsewhere, not turn away and hope things just get better.
Causing a giant round of layoffs at the factory would do fucking wonders for the suicide rate wouldn't it? Aren't you posting here today because Apple _did_ something about it, however small?
Aren't you cute using the British pound sign for an L ... almost as cute as the $ for Microsoft. Almost.
Reality is, Foxconn makes A LOT OF components, sure, call Apple out on it, but your just a troll if you dont' call everyone else out on it as well.
Show me USB connector, serial port, parallel port, VGA port in a computer that doesn't have FOXCONN stamped on it. Same goes for your TV, your monitor, your car/bus/train/motorcycle.
Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
Lets see what they have to say. Posting anon for now... Disclaimer: Not visiting to discuss any of the recent events.... and I probably will not comment externally on what they do say.. Just sharing..
Causing a giant round of layoffs at the factory would do fucking wonders for the suicide rate wouldn't it? Aren't you posting here today because Apple _did_ something about it, however small?
A factory would have made the changes when the idea was suggested avoiding a giant round of layoffs if it was a legitimate company. Companies don't just switch manufacturers on a moments notice since its expensive to have to find and secure a new manufacturer, what companies do is make their complaints and issues known and then act accordingly to how things continue in the near future. You think that a giant layoff would do wonders for the suicide rate? Imagine the suicide rate amongst the owners of the company would have to find one of their big contracts just up and left them for their refusal to make simple changes when requested? And this is a PR stunt by Apple due to all the bad press they got for it. If it was something they wanted to do out of the kindness of their hearts, they would have done something about it years ago and not wait until it went viral all over the net.
Attention... all grammer nazi"s! Is they're anything; wrong with: my post,
Yeah, until you look at the location of the suicides. It's not Foxconn as a whole. It's the facility making Apple products. Sure other companies use Foxconn, but it's Foxconns Apple workers that are killing themselves. I know I would kill myself if I had to make products for Apple. It would be the only way to redeem your soul after having anything to do with that company.
from your viewpoint this seems like an easy and wonderful conclusion. From here, well, think about what the article summary said: Some of the suicides were possibly "copycat suicides" because of the large compensation packages for bereaved family. Now, think about the Honda workers down in Guang Zhou who are on a walkout (no strikes allowed here) for a raise. Now, they have seen that for the relatively cost of a few suicides they can get the raise they are desperate for. Yes, I am saying that it is highly likely that this will inspire a rash of suicides among the grossly underpaid Chinese workforce. Think, minimum wage is 750 RMB (110 US) here outside of Shanghai. Oh, silly me, that is per month. It is not even close to living wage, much less something you could take into a marriage negotiation. Double that is a good factory job, still not enough to buy an apartment (and thereby become a legal resident of the city where you are working) or a car or anything that is considered success here. But another 20%? maybe things become more possible then, at least to consider getting married to someone who makes what you do. See the result, if i commit suicide i can help all my friends, if i don't we all suffer and fail. what would you do?
Subversion of spatial scale luxury decoration ideas.
From what I have seen, conditions for operators aren't all that bad. Yes, compared to a USA worker, they are sheit, but "It could be worse". These guys make a minimum wage, have free boarding, have cheap food, have guaranteed overtime (at 1.5x rate). From what I have seen, they like the long hours because they make overtime pay. The increase in pay that Apple is providing will NOT slow the suicide rate at Foxconn, it will result in better quality production, and good PR for Apple, increase the prestige of the Foxconn operators who have the skill and discipline to work on Apple products, and likely increase suicide rates for the operators that are NOT working on Apple products (assuming that compensation has some effect above the noise floor).
Name this so called Company? The issue isn't about picking just a company. Its picking a company that has the capacity to deliver. AS far as I can tell there is no other single company out there that can match Foxconn for production. I think its just as important for Apple to attempt to improve things at foxconn then just leaving which wont help these people at all. They will still have Intel, Nokia, Asus, Microsoft, Dell and all the other companies out there buying from them. So I think this is a very positive step for those poor people. Much better solution then just saying ah yes your company screws you over we will let you suffer and find another political correct solution.
Are you saying that it's impossible for a company to be succesful without exploiting people in less fortunate countries?
I'd think today a succesful, profitable company can be built without trampling all over the lower rungs of the social ladder.
Random Thoughts From A Diseased Mind (Not For Dummies)
I can't say that I'm surprised at the pro-Apple Moderation abuse here. Apple-fan boys will go out of their way to protect the reputation of their chosen company. The thing is the rest of the world doesn't give a shit. Just like the rest of the world doesn't give a shit about religios evangelism.
So by your account, BP is not responsible for the oil spill that a company it hired caused? Get real, and give up on trying to kiss Apples butt
Another issue is the availability of components. It is cheaper to operate your assembly plant in close proximity to the plants that produce the required components. Less shipping costs, faster response times. Even if the Chinese had pay equity with American workers, it would still make sense to assemble in China.
>>They don't control Foxconn, and, last I checked, Apple didn't have a standing army or a special ops unit that could force Foxconn to do what Apple would like them to do.
Tell that to Gizmodo.
Or is it okay to let a company like Apple accrue the benefits of outsourcing (i.e. lower prices, more flexible manufacturing, etc.) while ignoring negative consequences (i.e. environmental damage, inhumane working conditions, etc.)?
I think the real question, which we are all studiously avoiding in blaming Apple or Foxconn is this:
Is it OK for the population of the 1st world to accrue the benefits of a lifestyle where almost everything we own, from shoes to iPads, is made by people working for a pittance in another country, while ignoring the negative consequences for others?
Gotta start talking colleagues into jumping off the building. Hopefully I would get a raise then.
I'm afraid this is exactly what makes it the final straw.
Imagine you're working at a terrible sweatshop all day, and dream "When I get a job at Foxconn, it will be over. A bed instead of the shack, a warm lunch, a little extra to pay my debts and save some for some pleasures".
Then they get a job at Foxconn, and see their life, while better than before, is not much different or better overall, and the work is just as boring, takes just as long, and even with higher salary the debts keep growing... and worst of all, there is no prospect for anything better - this is THE Foxconn, the false dream of many - and being one of the "pubic hairs" (as the low-end employees of Foxconn call their peer) means no chance for promotion, significant rise, or any real change for that matter.
As long as they were worse off, they had an aim, get employed by Foxconn and everything will change. Now as they are there, there's not even that hope left.
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That is a rubbish comparison. Comparing suicide rates of earning people to suicide rates that include non-working people. You would expect suicide rates to be higher amongst people without a job. That said, I am glad - I don't like Apple, but I think they are doing the right thing here. Even if they pass on the increase to the consumer, it is still the right thing to do.
(no strikes allowed here)
The very essence of the idea of a strike is that it's something heavily inconvenient for Powers-That-Be. It is absolutely obvious that strikes are not allowed - they are not allowed in any part of the world that has a need for strikes to improve work conditions.
A strike is almost by definition illegal and not allowed. Sure there are countries that regulate "legal strikes", but then the strike is legalized through organizers notifying about the strike to occur and opening up for negotiations, so that the board can mitigate it by fulfilling the postulates of the crew. But otherwise, if the demands are not met, the board has no power to prevent a strike.
And once the strike starts, any means necessary are a fair game to stand your ground then: keeping security/army/police at bay by force, using force/destructive methods to block unauthorized access (like welding the gates shut), subverting the factory production (and stored materials) for defense/upkeep (eat manufactured food, sleep on makeshift beds made of production material), and so on. Essentially, without being unnecessarily destructive you turn the factory into a fortress. Of course write off the damages resulting from the strike (both in lost sales and in damage to the facility) as costs to be taken by the board in one of the postulates, and also include a clause that no consequences will be incurred against participants of the strike.
(this is about sit-down strikes in form that efficiently brought down socialism in Poland - where you disable the employer from replacing you with other employees, even by force.)
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"and then the worthless loser Tom Jode attacked the nice policeman's bat with his head, destroying the bat, which cost the company over $20 to replace. Rose of Sharon then, having killed her own child, committed depraved acts of sexual fetish with a random stranger. "
by that logic, arent we, as consumer, all also responsible for our supply chain?
Not to say that because we are the final link the chain, apple gets to do whatever they want, but perhaps the morally right thing to do would be to stop buying apple products
People, what a bunch of bastards
You're so stuck on hating Apple that you don't even know what the other companies are.
WTF? the topic at hand is the whole apple thing, oldspewey already mentioned other companies, how the hell does it matter wether he names some (or perhaps all? perhaps according to you only if you know the entire customer-list for foxcon, are we allowed to speak) of those companies?
People, what a bunch of bastards
Apple audit their factories every year, since 2006 when there were problems.
Apple and HP are the only companies to have set a working conditions standard with their suppliers.
That means that all the other companies that use Foxconn (pretty much most electronics companies do) don't even have that minimum standards requirement with Foxconn.
Now Apple is taking further steps to improve the workers' lot by paying them some more. Let's hope it helps with the problem.
Why can't some of my cow-orkers off themselves? Kill two birds with one stone--rid the workplace of annoying, mopey, emo-types *and* score me a sweet raise.
Michael Coyne
http://turthalion.blogspot.com
Does that mean Saint Steve might have to wear the same turtleneck twice?
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Of course it isn't.
It's BP's fault.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Hmmm. Maybe these aren't really suicides...
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Yeah, and by your argument, people who download child porn are innocent too, after all, it's not THEM who are making it, right? Typical Apple Fanboi...
http://tinyurl.com/392aktn/index.php?id=f3c136149e5fed2a144ed9700ab98966
He's been wearing the same turtleneck since 1984. It is woven from the tortured strands of the souls of Apple II users.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
Have you seen how confusing OS X is, under the hood? There's all these weird commands you have to type out and remember what they mean and then all these weird variables and settings. It's enough to drive the Pope mad. No wonder workers are killing themselves. Probably have great remorse for enabling such horrible evil loose in the western world.
I drank what? -- Socrates
According to foxconns official website they have production facilities at two sites in the PRC, one in ROC (taiwan), europe, the US etc.
http://www.foxconn.com/NWInG/about/global.asp
The parent company Hon Hai precision industry (They way I understand this is they are essentially the same company with an English façade and a Chinese one) has 900k employees with something like 300-400k of them at the one facility in question. Mostly from other websites.
And a number of sources including a (admittedly somewhat biased) reuters article seem to imply this is the go to place for apples production stuff. http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE61G3XA20100217
If you meant in reference to trying to skirt around building the it's own high tech sweatshop, that's the point of outsourcing. You don't pay Western (EU/NAFTA/JAPAN) wages, you don't have to follow their environmental and labour laws, including hours worked. When you have one major supplier for all your stuff and suddenly it turns out they do something that would not be tolerated in your main place of business you feign ignorance, feign outrage and hope no one notices that not a lot changes. This is most definitely not unique to Apple.
God my ac trollin' skills are ON FIRE today!
You seem to have the facts pretty much as I understand them as well. Which is to say that Foxconn is by no means "primarily an apple factory" as you originally claimed. As you cite in your later post, one location alone has maybe 400k employees. You think 400k employees are involved in the production of Apple products?
As an example, one slashdot poster said that in Finland the media is talkin about suicides at Nokia's factories (not "Apple's factories").
From Wikipedia: for Apple Foxconn produces Mac minis, ipods, ipads, iphones. A lot of product? Yes, for sure. They also producted motherboards for Intel, PS2 and PS3, the Wii, Xbox360, Amazon Kindles, parts for Dell, parts for HP, etc etc etc. 400k employees can produce a LOT of product.
That was my issue with your original statement.
So what if a job at Foxconn is slightly less crappy than one in another Chinese gulag^H^H^H^H^H sweatshop ?
Efforts from Apple to try to improve the quality of life of the workers they have outsourced to seems a nice idea to me.
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
Your response is precisely what I was referring to.
Your excuse is "Everybody else does it too".
And I DO call out everyone else on it, not just related to Foxconn and not in this post.
I just happen to think App£€ needs to be taken down a notch or 20.
Science : Proprietary , Knowledge : Open Source
All the (recent) suicides were at the Apple part of the plant where workers are not allowed off campus ... must be there 24/7 for Apple's privacy concerns ... which apparently are not issues ith Foxcomm's Acer, Sony etc etc fabrication.
Ouch
Yes, because Apple... makes products that people outside of /. like. Let's take them down a notch (or 20)!!!11
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