Thumbprints Used To Check Books Out of School Library

krou writes "Junior students at Higher Lane Primary in Whitefield, Greater Manchester, are in a trial of a system that uses their thumbprints to check out and return books from a library. The thumbprints are 'digitally transformed into electronic codes, which can then be recognized by a computer program.' The system was developed by Microsoft, and is being trialled elsewhere in the country. NO2ID condemned the system, saying it was appalling, and that 'It conditions children to hand over sensitive personal information.' The headmaster has defended the scheme, saying, 'We have researched this scheme thoroughly. It is a biometric recognition system and no image of a fingerprint is ever stored. It is a voluntary system. The thumbprint creates a mathematical template. All parents have been written to and we have told them what the system is all about. From the responses we have had there has been overwhelming support. We hold a lot of information about children because we are a school. This is no different.'"

Comments

Next up

[0100010001010011]

School bans gummi bears

Re:Next up

[vxice]

You get what you pay for. This just in $5 fake cameras, you know the ones with a single AA battery that runs a little LED so that the criminal thinks the camera isn't a $5 fake hooked up to nothing, fail to catch criminals %100 of the time. From the way that was written it sounds like the author just doesn't like biometrics and chose the lowest quality systems he could find. I go to a college with a biometrics program and know several people working on what is called "liveness detection" or measures in the systems to prevent fake fingers that would easily foil the fakes that this guy made. The first and simplest, while not the most accurate but simplest never is, way would be to include a temperature sensor and reject and print present with non standard human body temperature accounting for fevers and cold fingers during winter. The next method commonly used would be to apply a charge across the finger, there is a specific range of resistance expected from a human body. Other methods include detecting for perspiration, more sensitive scanners that can see the 3d structure of the fingerprint and many others. Like I said you get what you pay for and that needs to be taken into account. That article you linked to mentioned that you could fool the system with $10 worth of household goods, well what use is that if there is no way you are going to steal $10 worth of books. Who really steals books from a high school library. Security is not about being %100 secure but making it harder and more expensive to break the security than either a) its worth or b) than it is to get the other guy.

Re:Next up

[Anonymous Coward]

Too much effort. Just show it a photocopy of a thumb print. (Myth Busters)

Re:Next up

[rolfwind]

My local Community College library has an even more retarded system than all this... when you check out, you write your name and student ID# on a sheet. The problem is that the first letter, last name, and last four digits of your school id# is your username and the student id# is the default password (no prompt to change it either) into the school system (blackboard, registering/dropping/withdrawing classes, looking at GPA and past grades, viewing and requesting transcipt...).

This sheet is in complete view and what's worse is the library houses the computer lab and has like 50 computers. I tried telling the librarians what they are doing is completely retarded and got the response "We always did it this way". Which is strange because most librarians I know are forward thinking and security minded. I would have demonstrated with a random name but I didn't feel like getting accusations of hacking, even with my own name so I left it alone. To this day they still do it like this.

Re:Next up

[vlm]

Who really steals books from a high school library.

Well, I don't, at least not for myself.

But, you see, I was an absolute monstrous little hell raiser in HS, back in the olden days, when "glam rock" was new, not retro. I was absolutely bored to tears, unless I was pulling off some kind of secret agent caper, or occasionally just anarchy for the sake of anarchy due to extreme boredom. I won all practical joke wars, and I was a bit of a bastard about it.

I would not be surprised to discover that certain jerks, cheating ex-girlfriends, bullies, and school personnel had, oddly enough, checked out and never returned the schools ENTIRE COLLECTION of gay/bi/curious/trans literature, suicide prevention lit, STD awareness lit (the joy of syphilis, etc) drug abuse lit... Whom would ever guess that the schools biggest jock read and kept every biography of Freddie Mercury, Liberace, etc.

Oh and I'm sure that a modern school would never electronically access "private" library records and call kids in for counseling. I pulled that maneuver off decades ago during a practical joke war with a friend, took him awhile to forgive me...

Re:Next up

[value_added]

I go to a college with a biometrics program and know several people working on what is called "liveness detection" or measures in the systems to prevent fake fingers that would easily foil the fakes that this guy made ... temperature sensor apply a charge across the finger ... detecting for perspiration ... 3d structure of the fingerprint ... and many others.

Interesting reading. I'm wondering, though, instead of pursing such complex approaches, why not simply expand on the "charge across the finger" idea. A sufficiently strong charge applied "to" the finger in combination with a timer would allow you to determine whether there is indeed a live person attached to that finger, yes?

Or are screams not part of Best Practices in the biometric industry?

Re:Next up

[Rukie]

Gradeschool and Highschool for me always required a Librarian to scan the book and then input your name. However, our Librarians knew every student by first and last name. College for me has a photo identification card that needs to be shown (with a magnetic stripe) and the books are linked to whoever is on the photo (you must match the photo).

I dislike the idea of using fingerprints. The government should NOT maintain this information. I can fully understand someones approach to this and why they want to use this, but as this gains popularity, it will become far easier for the governments to say, Hey, lets have a universal id system using fingerprints. Oh, you'll need the fingerprint to check out books, identify yourself for guns, for paying at the gas station, for getting on the city bus, etc. Yes it can create a significant convenience for the consumer, but now the government can track your every move, every purchase. Today's kids are going to be used to handing over every bit of personal information, our government certainly isn't going to protect our rights at this point, we need to protect them ourselves. (How often is the government supposed to be overthrown? Every 200 years?) I realize this article is about a school, but it all starts somewhere, right?

Re:Next up

[hedwards]

Yes, but why on earth would they bother to spend that kind of money on something for which they already have a solution? For certain applications, the technology you're suggesting makes sense. But for books at a school library? Wouldn't it be a lot easier to just use a scan system like they do at our public library? Basically when you put a book on reserve a librarian places it in with the ones on hold and then you go pick it up off the shelf, scan it along with your card and are out the door. Sure it's more expensive than even more simple systems, but it's a lot less problematic than conditioning kids to think that it's normal to have to pass a biometric check to check out a book.

Re:Next up

[vxice]

In general you want systems to be 'user friendly' so that it will be 'convenient' to use and users will want to use the system. It is indeed one of many factors considered when deciding on which biometric system to deploy. The list of concerns when shopping for a biometric system is ease of use, reliability, stability or how fast the metric changes, ease of enrollment and acceptance of the system.

Re:Next up

[Anonymous Coward]

so what about severing the finger and placing a heating element in there, would that work?

Re:Next up

[vxice]

Well that does have to be taken into account so if that kind of student is prevalent more security would be required. On a side note your HS library sure had an interesting collection. You don't happen to write the spam letters do you, is that you Johnathan Land?

Re:Next up

[vxice]

Did we have these people when cards were first used. Oh you are just conditioning them to produce a card to check out a book. Where is the problem there? Biometrics if done right could be cheaper, quicker and more convenient. Students don't have to remember their cards, their fingerprint is always at hand and prevents students from using other students cards. Enrolling students into a biometric system is cheap, cheaper than providing a new card to every student every year. At least over the long run. For what ever reason this school decided it would work for them.

Re:Next up

[Syberz]

Hey, if you're in the habit of letting people take your fingerprints in silicone molds then it's your own damn fault if they're then used to steal library books.

Re:Next up

[misexistentialist]

At every school I went to students just signed out books. School libraries themselves are usually quite useless, and an expensive high-tech upgrade like this one is just a vanity project.

Re:Next up

[vxice]

on a simple system yes. But like I said if you are guarding something that people will be willing to sever a human finger for then up the security. Not all systems would be fooled by your method.

Re:Next up

[MikeBabcock]

From the way that was written it sounds like the author just doesn't like biometrics and chose the lowest quality systems he could find.

Did you read the article? The gummy fingerprint can be used with a real finger behind it. Unless you're doing skin refraction tests to determine natural skin from fake, he's probably going to get through. Also noteworthy, the entry's from 2002.

Notably, this is Bruce Schneier's blog, not some random crackpot who posts anything and everything.

Re:Next up

[vxice]

But what else do you expect out of bureaucrats? They have to have budgets to manage. But there are valid reasons to use biometric identification. At my college they have a hand geometry, very simple biometric measures lengths and widths of fingers, to the student recreation center so students who decide to enroll don't need to bring their id with them. And if it is a vanity project the argument about 'conditioning' students to accept this is really just a totally unrelated argument from people who won't accept this technology anyways.

Re:Next up

[Anonymous Coward]

You get what you pay for. This just in $5 fake cameras, you know the ones with a single AA battery that runs a little LED so that the criminal thinks the camera isn't a $5 fake hooked up to nothing, fail to catch criminals %100 of the time. From the way that was written it sounds like the author just doesn't like biometrics and chose the lowest quality systems he could find. I go to a college with a biometrics program and know several people working on what is called "liveness detection" or measures in the systems to prevent fake fingers that would easily foil the fakes that this guy made. The first and simplest, while not the most accurate but simplest never is, way would be to include a temperature sensor and reject and print present with non standard human body temperature accounting for fevers and cold fingers during winter. The next method commonly used would be to apply a charge across the finger, there is a specific range of resistance expected from a human body. Other methods include detecting for perspiration, more sensitive scanners that can see the 3d structure of the fingerprint and many others. Like I said you get what you pay for and that needs to be taken into account.

I take it you never saw the Mythbusters episode where they tested out various ways of compromising various biometric sensors... they tested gummi bears against sensors with "liveness detectors" and found:
1) a gummi that's been held in your hand has a similar temperature readout to your finger (for a short time)
2) a gummi has a similar electrical resistance to the human finger
3) the moisture in gummis is similar in volume to that in the human finger (hence why 1 and 2 work)
Now, they didn't test the "deep scan" scanners that actually scan for veins, not just fingerprint - that's the only type of fingerprint scanenr I've seen that looks remotely secure.

That article you linked to mentioned that you could fool the system with $10 worth of household goods, well what use is that if there is no way you are going to steal $10 worth of books. Who really steals books from a high school library. Security is not about being %100 secure but making it harder and more expensive to break the security than either a) its worth or b) than it is to get the other guy.

By the way, if you don't know who Bruce Schneier is, you really should if you're studying biometrics -- his name is synonomous with secure cryptography. Just because your college offers courses in biometrics doesn't mean that they're infallible if done right -- that'd be like saying that because your college offers courses in locksmithing, you get what you pay for in locks (which, like biometrics, can all be bypassed, but UNLIKE biometrics, aren't tied to your personal identity).

As for stealing books being worth it... if this was a public library, you might have a point. However, this is a SCHOOL -- kids will happily spend thousands of dollars of other people's money to steal $10 worth of books -- just to prove they can. I'll tell you who steals books from a high school library -- STUDENTS. They do it all the time. However, most are more likely to do it by throwing the books through a window to a friend outside, or by wrapping the books in aluminum foil than by messing with the bio sensors -- except for the smart kids who enjoy a challenge, or the ones who want to sign out all the anatomy books in the library in the name of the unfortunate kid who sits at the front of the class.

Re:Next up

[ailnlv]

From the article linked by GP:

There's both a specific and a general moral to take away from this result. Matsumoto is not a professional fake-finger scientist; he's a mathematician. He didn't use expensive equipment or a specialized laboratory. He used $10 of ingredients you could buy, and whipped up his gummy fingers in the equivalent of a home kitchen. And he defeated eleven different commercial fingerprint readers, with both optical and capacitive sensors, and some with "live finger detection" features. (Moistening the gummy finger helps defeat sensors that measure moisture or electrical resistance; it takes some practice to get it right.) If he could do this, then any semi-professional can almost certainly do much much more.

His gelly fingers defeat several liveness detection systems, including temperature, capacitance and moisture. Next time you should RTFA before criticizing it.

Re:Next up

[Anonymous Coward]

Inexpensive on paper until you figure out every student is touching a contaminated fingerprint scanner and then the school loses federal attendance based funding due to massive amounts of influenza outbreaks.

Re:Next up

[mcgrew]

You get what you pay for

If you believe that tired old saw you're a fool. You usually pay for what you get, but you don't always get what you pay for. If you buy naproxin sodium you'll pay 1/3 what you'll pay for Alieve, but Alieve is nothing but Naproxin Sodium. If you buy Alieve, you are certainly NOT getting what you pay for; all you're paying for is your own foolishness -- three times the price for the exact same thing. The same goes for Green Giant canned vegetables vs generic canned vegetables, etc. They're grown in the same fields and processed in the same factories and canned in the same canneries and sold to fools who think "you get what you pay for" who have more dollars than sense.

Re:Next up

[PinkyGigglebrain]

The school still has to issue student IDs for other uses, discounts at stores and quick verifications of identity/status by campus security to name a couple. The students are still expected to have to have their ID cards with them so the school isn't really going to save any money doing this.

I have to agree with some of the other comments that this is likely a waste of money.

On a personnel note I would not want my children participating in this kind of program. I do think the tech is pretty cool but remember that once a thumbprint is compromised your SOL.

Re:Next up

[vxice]

except humans have immune systems to prevent this kind of thing. But if they coddle their immune system by washing their hands every five minuets and never go outside thus having no need for the immune system then yes this might be a problem except for the they never leave their house bit. This is also a reason contactless biometrics such as iris scanners and the like are popular, not to mention their lower matching times and decreased processing requirements, but that adds another problem into the situation much more varied collection conditions. You could also just provide soap next to these scanners for anyone so inclined.

Re:Next up

[vxice]

what the hell does capacitance have to do with liveness detection. Nothing I have ever heard of at least in biometrics. If you are talking about capacitors that store electrons and build up charge in dc and shift voltage waves I really don't know how they relate. It is still not hard to tailor your test to systems you know will fail. I also know that there are many biometric systems that claim to be top of the line but are no better than the $5 fake camera you buy at radio shack to look like you are recording the lobby. But there are many more systems that do exactly what they say and can easily detect this kind of fake.

Re:Next up

[dcollins]

"Did we have these people when cards were first used. Oh you are just conditioning them to produce a card to check out a book. Where is the problem there?"

Consider this a "Give unto Caesar those things which are Caesar's" type situation. If you want to track library books or student attendance or whatever, you have a responsibility to generate a User ID, give it to me, and expect to get it back on request. Same for IRS taxation or Social Security or whatever. If it is stolen or mis-identified then you have the capacity and responsibility to provide a new one that works.

My biometrics (skin, blood type, fingerprints, iris scans) are personal and private information, existed prior to any government institution, and should not be required to be turned over to said institutions.

Re:Next up

[Sir_Lewk]

The school is still going to be distributing ID cards for obvious reasons so deploying an additional system will absolutely cost you more in the long run.

Re:Next up

[arth1]

And, of course, it prevents that pesky kid with eczema or amelia from checking out books.

For biometrics to replace other ID, it has to be biometrics that absolutely everyone can use.
Can you think of any?

If not, it just becomes Yet Another Option, which doesn't really save anything -- it just adds more complexity and risks of errors.

Re:Next up

[Sir_Lewk]

There's both a specific and a general moral to take away from this result. Matsumoto is not a professional fake-finger scientist; he's a mathematician. He didn't use expensive equipment or a specialized laboratory. He used $10 of ingredients you could buy, and whipped up his gummy fingers in the equivalent of a home kitchen. And he defeated eleven different commercial fingerprint readers, with both optical and capacitive sensors, and some with "live finger detection" features. (Moistening the gummy finger helps defeat sensors that measure moisture or electrical resistance; it takes some practice to get it right.) If he could do this, then any semi-professional can almost certainly do much much more.

Re:Next up

[losfromla]

http://www.boingboing.net/2006/06/22/table-saw-that-stops.html search "capacitance" in the following page: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7290474.html It's not a library checkout system but it does address your opening question. Of course in this system, a hot-dog would work, so probably so would it in a live-ness detector based on capacitance.

Re:Next up

[anyGould]

At every school I went to students just signed out books. School libraries themselves are usually quite useless, and an expensive high-tech upgrade like this one is just a vanity project.

Generally because for some perverse reason it's easier for a library to get funding for high-tech security systems and multimedia gadgetry than it is to get funding for actual books.

Re:Next up

[rockNme2349]

their fingerprint is always at hand

Bah dum ... CHA!

Re:Next up

[easyTree]

"Whoosh"
What's that noise?

Re:Next up

[Gudeldar]

Mythbusters also managed to completely fool all the fingerprint scanners they tested. They managed to beat one of them with a simple printed copy of a fingerprint. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAfAVGES-Yc

Re:Next up

[sjames]

That's all well and good, but those wonderful systems you speak of are not what's on the market now. The ones currently on the market form the cheap usb devices on up to the wall mounted "professional" security systems all fall for exactly the tricks you say they shouldn't fall for. The ones you speak of are lovingly hand crafted from solid blocks of unobtainium.

As for the question of who will defeat it, I remember well when my high school library installed a security system. Suddenly the entirely uninteresting practice of stealing a book from the library became the local sport. By installing the security, the librarian effectively said "no you can't" so proving her wrong immediately became top priority.

As soon as the Mythbusters episode where they tried (and succeeded) to defeat the fingerprint scanners comes on again, the fun will begin.

Re:Next up

[ffflala]

How they check out the books has nothing to do with this system. The thumbprints take the traditional place of the library card or school ID.

Library circulation systems include patron accounts, and need a way to match book to person, be it card, thumbprint, or honor code.

Re:Next up

[Fish (David Trout)]

"MythBusters beat fingerprint security system"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LA4Xx5Noxyo

They beat it using: latex, gelatin, and perhaps most amazing of all, a PHOTOCOPY of a fingerprint!

Not sensitive

[maxume]

Thumbprints shouldn't be treated as sensitive personal information, they are too hard to control.

Re:Not sensitive

[Anonymous Coward]

And loads easier to ascertain the owner than a lost library card.

Re:Not sensitive

[butterflysrage]

you mean your kids aren't shaved bald coated in a latex suit? Just think of all that sensitive DNA they are leaving everywhere they go!

Re:Not sensitive

[drinkypoo]

The risk that someone will cut off a junior schoolchild's thumb in order to check out a library book seems to lie within acceptable bounds.

Re:Not sensitive

[garcia]

I'm fine with this system as long as:

1. My child isn't required to participate (if the religious right can opt out of sex-ed, my kid can opt out of this) and an alternative is provided.

2. If no alternatives are provided then my child isn't required as part of his assignments to check books out of the school library.

Re:Not sensitive

[Anonymous Coward]

You just have no idea how cruel kids can be...

Re:Not sensitive

[betterunixthanunix]

Except that in this case, it is a thumbprint combined with other identifying information (like a name). They claim the information is not stored, but I am sure that buried in the contract there is a clause allowing law enforcement to arbitrarily request the thumbprints of particular students. Sure, they could always pick through the trash to get the thumbprints, but this system makes it that much easier, further tipping the balance of power away from the citizens.

Of course, there are plenty of other ways that the government manages to get this sort of information, but that does not mean it is OK to add to the problem.

Re:Not sensitive

[maxume]

What are your concerns? The system stores a hash of the fingerprint, as long as it is not completely brain dead there will be no way to use the information in the system to construct a fingerprint, and any library they use is likely already keeping a record of the books they check out.

Re:Not sensitive

[TheRaven64]

You don't need to cut someone's finger off to get their fingerprint. Fingerprints are used for forensics precisely because you leave them on everything that you touch. With some scanners, you can just put something malleable like a gummy bear on a place where someone has left a fingerprint, after dusting it, and then put that on the scanner. The newer ones require marginally more effort, but only marginally.

Re:Not sensitive

[maxume]

Do you think there is a high risk of students lifting fingerprints in order to steal books?

Re:Not sensitive

[Anonymous Coward]

Thumbprints shouldn't be treated as sensitive personal information, they are too hard to control.

In a civilized society, fingerprinting is what you do to criminals.

Re:Not sensitive

[TheRaven64]

Well, I learned how to lift fingerprints, aged 9, from a book in my school library, so the capability is there. To steal books? Probably not. To get another child in trouble for not returning library books? Much more likely.

Re:Not sensitive

[betterunixthanunix]

"as long as it is not completely brain dead"

Interesting assumption.

"library they use is likely already keeping a record of the books they check out"

True, but now it is a record that is tied to something very difficult to change or erase: a fingerprint. What guarantee is there that the police will not be able to enter the school and demand that certain fingerprints be recorded for their use? Perhaps at the time, the police will have an innocent motive (a risk of someone kidnapping the child), but now they have fingerprints on record for someone who is not a criminal.

Re:Not sensitive

[maxume]

So how frequently do you think it would actually happen?

Re:Not sensitive

[hockeyc]

So when the librarian is standing there watching you press a gummy bear up to the scanner, he or she is not going to be a little suspicious?

Re:Not sensitive

[colonelquesadilla]

Sorry, but it is explicitly stated that the prints themselves are not stored. Not sure exactly how this works but presumably it measures a few parameters and makes a hash out of that.

Re:Not sensitive

[butterflysrage]

have you tried to legally change your name? not exactly an easy task in some areas.

Re:Not sensitive

[betterunixthanunix]

So they store a hash...do you think it is impossible to compute that hash from a fingerprint I lift off of a cup? All the hash does is make it hard to compute the actual fingeprint, which is only a comfort if you are worried about someone stealing your biometric data -- but the other issue, the privacy issue, is not solved by hashing the data.

Re:Not sensitive

[Lumpy]

The fact is you DONT leave them clean and legible everywhere. Cops are happy when they can retrieve a good fingerprint. Most of the time they are smudged or not left because of dust on the object. in a completely un-useable state.

Very rarely do Crime scene investigators get good fingerprints. Go ask a real one, and stop paying attention to utter fantasy like CSI. Most detectives cant stand that show and how utterly inaccurate and flat out wrong it is.

Re:Not sensitive

[somersault]

Well, I learned how to lift fingerprints, aged 9, from a book in my school library, so the capability is there.

It might look a bit suspicious if the only book you ever check out of the library with this system is "how to fake fingerprints", and then it is discovered that people are becoming the victims of library identity theft ;)

And of course if you don't want to be on the system at all, how are you ever going to get in if you don't get the book to learn how to fake fingerprints? The mind, it boggles!

Re:Not sensitive

[minor_deity]

How often are children bullied in school?

Re:Not sensitive

[somersault]

"My gummy bear owns the membership, but he's disabled and I'm his method of transport.".

Re:Not sensitive

[Shoe Puppet]

Then, of course, such information must be removed from the school library. Problem solved!

Re:Not sensitive

[blackraven14250]

You learned how to do this from the school's library? Wow.

Just wait until the headline: STUDENT STEALS BOOK ABOUT LIFTING FINGERPRINTS BY LIFTING FINGERPRINTS!

Re:Not sensitive

[maxume]

If Wikipedia is accurate, in the U.S., you can just start using a new name, as long as you do it in good faith. A court order may be necessary to convince banks and such of the change, and there are apparently some limitations on the form of the new name

Re:Not sensitive

[maxume]

You would be better off agitating for legal protections on databases containing PII, screaming "NOOOOO" every time someone decides to make one isn't going to work.

Re:Not sensitive

[vlm]

The risk that someone will cut off a junior schoolchild's thumb in order to check out a library book seems to lie within acceptable bounds.

Nah, the problem is the other way around. Schools are staffed by the type of political folk that go out of their way to be sensitive and PC and multicultural. The kids of course rebel by acting the exact opposite. Anyway, right now, back at the district offices, there's probably some assistant vice regent of the executive director of differently-abled kids that is shitting a brick imagining some armless kid walking up to the librarian, trying to check out a book, "Oh little tommy just put your thumbprint right here" and the kid starts wailing away and collapses, parents sue the school for a billion dollars (and probably win). Seriously. These are the kind of people that will blow up a building because it doesn't have enough ramps / has too many stairs, or the school might be using textbooks from the 80s but the bathrooms are all brand new "accessible".

Re:Not sensitive

[Sebilrazen]

Let me get this straight, you're using the frequency of an evolutionary based behavior (pack dominance) that requires no intelligence as an indicator for the frequency of something that requires a fair amount of intelligence and does nothing for the aggressor?

I just want to make sure I understand the frame.

Re:Not sensitive

[mindwhip]

digitally transformed into electronic codes, which can then be recognized by a computer program

Fonts (for example) are "digitally transformed into electronic codes", yet they are regularly converted back into pictures that can be displayed on screens or reproduced onto paper. Just because something is coded into something unrecognizable by humans doesn't mean that the process can't be reversed.

Re:Not sensitive

[thePowerOfGrayskull]

Thumbprints shouldn't be treated as sensitive personal information, they are too hard to control.

In a civilized society, fingerprinting is what you do to criminals.

Also most infants at birth - hands and feet. So much for the "criminal" rhetoric.

Re:Not sensitive

[meerling]

depends on how lossy the conversion was.

Re:Not sensitive

[sleeping143]

And children: http://www.yoursafechild.com/childprint_id_kit.php I know plenty of people my age and younger whose fingerprints (all 10) are held by the police. The intent is to make identification of a found child easier. Some kits even have DNA sampling equipment.

Re:Not sensitive

[tixxit]

What's the difference? The system can still be used to identify someone from their fingerprints. They can just give the hash to the police, the police then use the system to compute a new hash from a lifted print, then they can verify, with some degree of accuracy, that the print belongs to a specific child.

Re:Not sensitive

[fireylord]

What are your concerns?

My concerns are that this is teaching children that it is ok to hand over personally identifiable biometric data, that cannot be altered during their lifetime, to do innocuous things when they have done nothing wrong. What next? Voluntary fingerprinting while you wait at, a desk set up in your local shopping mall by policemen? It's the first step in creating an Orwellian society.

Re:Not sensitive

[fireylord]

Also most infants at birth - hands and feet. So much for the "criminal" rhetoric.

really? never seen that here!

Re:Not sensitive

[RivieraKid]

Except the Librarian won't be standing over you making sure it's your thumbprint you're using - after all, the system is infallible, right?

All it would take is one or two extra thugs to cause a distraction, and Bingo!

Re:Not sensitive

[perryizgr8]

what's wrong with fingerprints? they are very convenient and foolproof as user ids. your fingerprint is not secret info. it is public. i can ask you for your pen and take your prints off it. why does it spook everyone off????

Re:Not sensitive

[sexconker]

So when the librarian is standing there watching you press a gummy bear up to the scanner, he or she is not going to be a little suspicious?

The librarian will never be standing and watching, and you know it.

Re:Not sensitive

[perryizgr8]

so lets see. i poked a boy with my pencil. i did it very hard. he still has a mark on his hand where i did it. so a pencil can be used to bully children. lets not allow them. retarded logic on your part.

Re:Not sensitive

[perryizgr8]

why do you have a problem with the police storing your fingerprints?? or your child's? what sort of abuse can they do??

Re:Not sensitive

[perryizgr8]

what problem do you have with the police being able to "verify, with some degree of accuracy, that the print belongs to a specific child"?

Re:Not sensitive

[perryizgr8]

its like that everywhere. you can go to court and have them issue an order to banks but only when they refuse to do so on your order.

Re:Not sensitive

[perryizgr8]

in what way will this lead to an orwellian society? no freedoms are being obstructed or anything. please give me a sequential list of things that lead from fingerprint id system for library books to orwell. i feel there is something that you find obvious but i am unable to spot.

Re:Not sensitive

[TheRaven64]

Not sure about where you live, but in most libraries I've been to, including the ones at schools I attended, you were allowed to read books without removing them. This did not require any kind of interaction with the system.

Re:Not sensitive

[OldeTimeGeek]

Gee, when I was a kid all you needed to find out what books I had checked out was ask. Up to and including college, the checkout slips had the book's name, my name and a return date.

Granted there were several thousand volumes and everything was kept manually, but if someone was interested in finding out, it was only a matter of time and staff to find out - if anybody cared, that was...

Re:Not sensitive

[nedlohs]

Very rarely do Crime scene investigators get good fingerprints. Go ask a real one, and stop paying attention to utter fantasy like CSI. Most detectives cant stand that show and how utterly inaccurate and flat out wrong it is.

And computer hackers can't stand the way computer hacking is presented in things like Swordfish. Spies probably think James Bond is inaccurate. Mutants think the Heroes is flat out wrong.

Surprise surprise fiction isn't reality.

Re:Not sensitive

[thePowerOfGrayskull]

In the US it's optional - but parents are generally encouraged to do it; and the default behavior is to go ahead.

I seem to remember growing up too many years ago, fingerprints were taken at school -- on the theory that if we died a horrible death, our bodies would be identifiable or somesuch. (I actually don't remember why, but I do recall that sometime between 3rd and 5th grades, they were fingerprinting everyone. Can't recall if there was parental consent or not.)

Re:Not sensitive

[Anonymous Coward]

No, they cannot get the thumbprint on request. The most they can do is get the HASH of the thumbprint. What good will that do them? They would need to obtain the key used to hash as well, then they compare hashes, but they could never be certain they were the same. Most biometrics systems use a scoring system, and biometrics templates lead to a high number of false positives. It works much better when you eather keep the memberbase small (fewer than 100, and even then you'll have issues) or require extra information such as a username.

So no, the gov't isn't going to steal your fingerprint from the school library and use it 20 years later to ID you from a fingerprint on anti-gov't fliers you handled.

Re:Not sensitive

[geminidomino]

So how frequently do you think it would actually happen?

Unless children have gotten significantly less cruel than when I was a kid (this was back when checking a book out of the library meant putting your name on the index card in the back), then I estimate no more than two or three times a week.

Re:Not sensitive

[nschubach]

Where did you hide the cameras and why did you put them in my house!?

Re:Not sensitive

[maxume]

According to the internet, empathy among young people is lower than it was 20 or 30 years ago.

It also says they spend all their time on the Facebook and sending text messages and playing video games, so I'm not sure I believe they would go to all the trouble of lifting fingerprints.

Re:Not sensitive

[nschubach]

What if (me being devil's advocate) all the local libraries down the road decide to combine hash databases, that get's combined into a state database, etc. Now a student is banned from checking out books from one library because he stuck some gum in a girl's hair. All libraries tied to the system now ban this student who now has no access to any books in any library in the state because of a minor infraction. Now you have someone in "control" of the information that is contained within the books.

Re:Not sensitive

[somersault]

Fair point. I was imagining you having to "check in" at the door for some reason, probably from having to use swipe cards all the time at work and the gym :s

Re:Not sensitive

[drinkypoo]

In my elementary school, either your teacher was there, or the librarian knew who you were because your teacher called ahead to let them know you were coming. And I spent enough time in the library to where the librarian knew who I was anyway. There were four Apple IIs in it because I lived in Aptos where most people had money and I was probably the most ethnic kid (aka most nonuniform genetics) in the school until third grade or so.

Re:Not sensitive

[mcgrew]

What if you have no thumbs? My city library uses the library card as ID. It works, and if you lose it you can get another. With this retarded system, if you lose your thumbs you're screwed.

There was an item in the paper a month or two ago about how an armless man couldn't cash a check drawn on his wife's bank because they required a thumbprint (I don't remember what bank, but it was one of the larger, more bureaucratic ones loke BOA or Chase).

Re:Not sensitive

[maxume]

Then obviously you aren't human and you have no need of books.

I'm simply advocating that both the designers and users of systems think of their thumbprint like a slip of paper with their name written on it (an id card is very similar to this, except the people who made the card have gone to some varying amount of trouble to be able to know if they are the ones who wrote the name). So if you would not give someone a dollar just because they have a piece of paper with the correct name on it, you probably shouldn't give them a dollar just because they have the correct thumbprint.

Re:Not sensitive

[butterflysrage]

try that on the passport office and get back to me on how well that went....

Re:Not sensitive

[maxume]

Does the passport office not recognizing the new name mean that you are using it illegally?

Or do yo mean that it is a good test for whether a name has been legally changed?

Re:Not sensitive

[willy_me]

So they store a hash...do you think it is impossible to compute that hash from a fingerprint I lift off of a cup?

Of course you can - but what is your point exactly?

All the hash does is make it hard to compute the actual fingeprint, which is only a comfort if you are worried about someone stealing your biometric data

A hash makes it impossible to compute the actual fingerprint - you can't even come close. Their simple system might record up to 20 points of interest out of the thousands that are actually present on a print. If you were to generate a fingerprint from those 20 points you would not end up with anything like the actual fingerprint. When compared by a real system, like those used by the police, you would not get a match.

-- but the other issue, the privacy issue, is not solved by hashing the data.

Well yes and no. If the police wanted your prints for whatever reason (say you went missing) they would simply go to your place of residence and get an actual print. They wouldn't bother with the school system that only stored a tiny bit of information - only enough to work with input from a fingerprint scanner and only to a low degree of accuracy.

Are there other secret organizations that might track you? Possibly, but I wouldn't be the least bit concerned about the school system. Such an organization would simply get one of your real fingerprints or use some sort of facial recognition.

FYI, I wrote an algorithm for fingerprint recognition when in university. It worked - sometimes. They point being is that I have researched the field and understand just how simple this school system will be when compared to a more sophisticated system like those used be the police.

Re:Not sensitive

[anyGould]

Let me get this straight, you're using the frequency of an evolutionary based behavior (pack dominance) that requires no intelligence as an indicator for the frequency of something that requires a fair amount of intelligence and does nothing for the aggressor? I just want to make sure I understand the frame.

The frame is, bullies beat up geeks. History has shown that even when the geeks fight back, they get punished for fighting (since they don't have the skills to deal violence without getting caught).

So, if you're a geek, and you're looking for some payback, why would you expect them not to use the abilities and tools at their disposal?

Ex: guy shows up for the school track meet, and for some reason they're signed up for all women's events...

Re:Not sensitive

[anyGould]

In simplest terms, it now makes you an identifiable suspect at any location you've visited.

Re:Not sensitive

[Sabriel]

I read the GP not as meaning you can reverse the hash to get the print, but rather that if someone else gets a copy of your print, they can hash it using the same algorithm and then compare the result against the school's database to see what books you've been reading - thus, privacy issue.

Re:Not sensitive

[iphinome]

In the US the objection is the 4'th amendment. If you'd like the police to have access to any and all of your information go ahead and give it to them. I'd personally rather not have them come bother me because they found my fingerprint in a gas station that got robbed 4 hours after I made a purchase and thus I don't want them to have any data about my fingerprints that's tied to things like my name and address.

Some of those children might have the same objection.

If the police or anyone else generate a hash from a fingerprint and compares it to a list of hashes generated by the school then then the school has effectively given the police a database of fingerprints.

If this doesn't bother you maybe you should be reading foxnews.com instead of slashdot.

Re:Not sensitive

[perryizgr8]

I'd personally rather not have them come bother me because they found my fingerprint in a gas station that got robbed 4 hours after I made a purchase and thus I don't want them to have any data about my fingerprints that's tied to things like my name and address.

but if the police does its job properly, you will not be suspected just because they found your prints at a public crime scene, if many others are also found. of course if the police still traps you then this is not a problem with fingerprints, its a problem with the police. in no way can a fingerprint be abused without the abuser breaking some law, for which he can be punished.

Re:Not sensitive

[perryizgr8]

In simplest terms, it now makes you an identifiable suspect at any location you've visited.

at a public place like a shopping mall where robbery has occurred, they will find hundreds of prints besides your own. so, unless the police is completely retarded, they will not call in suspects based on fingerprints.
at a private place like a friend's place where theft has occured if your print is found what is the problem with going and clearing out your name with an alibi or asking your friend to tell them that you are not a thief?

Re:Not sensitive

[perryizgr8]

but if that happens, the culprit and cause would be a stupid librarian, who would not loan out a book to a child just because of a petty mischief. its the same logic as don't allow citizens to buy guns as they allow them to kill each other. the correct way is to give everyone a gun and prosecute murderers in court.

Re:Not sensitive

[nschubach]

But how would the other librarians know that some stupid librarian put him on the ban list because of gum? They just have a big red "Do not loan books to this kid" warning on their screen.

Re:Not sensitive

[perryizgr8]

yes then it becomes sort of no one's responsibility. the other librarians just say they can't do anything and the original one is already stupid. you are right, this sort of roadblock happens in many similar things and puts you in a very helpless situation.

Re:Not sensitive

[butterflysrage]

I mean that an old name is not as easy to walk away from as the person above me seems to think. Hell a strong acid or a dremel tool can get me a new thumb print, and it is likely less painful then dealing with the raw number of govt organizations required to wipe away from my old name.

Big Deal

[sensationull]

Big deal schools in the UK and NZ have been using this method for checking out books for ages. You try to get a six year old to remember a pin number or library card. Many also use public barcode lists of users instead due to the cost of fingerprint scanners and in some rare cases privacy concerns.

Re:Big Deal

[DeadPixels]

Back when I was in elementary school, all you did was tell the librarian your name and she'd look you up in the system. I don't recall if there was anything to prevent abuse of the system - they might have asked for a birthday or something. Either way, this just seems unnecessary more than it is concerning.

Re:Big Deal

[betterunixthanunix]

"You try to get a six year old to remember a pin number or library card."

Or, you could have an adult help them. Like, a teacher, or a parent, or the librarian. Why are we suddenly expecting 6 year olds to go to the library without any supervision?

Re:Big Deal

[TheRaven64]

This story is about the UK, but maybe it's been used in NZ for ages. And does a school library really need automated checkout? The library at the school I attended from ages 7-11 did not have a librarian, the class teacher wrote the book that you borrowed in a book. The school that I went to from 11-18 had a librarian and either she or one of the sixth formers doing library duty would enter your name in the computer that tracked books. This popped up your photograph, for quick verification. No library card needed.

The school that I went to from ages 3-7 didn't have a library. Reading age changes quickly when you're that young and so each class had its own reading books, which children could borrow if they asked the teacher. Again, no need to remember a PIN or library card.

Re:Big Deal

[DerekLyons]

You try to get a six year old to remember a pin number or library card.

Why the heck does a six year old need a library card or a PIN in the first place?
 
The problem here is assuming that everything must be computerized... for no good reason other than everything must be computerized. When I was six, the teacher pulling a card from the pocket in the book, having me print my name, stamping the card and the book with with the due date, and then filing the card worked just fine.
 
I'm no luddite or technophobe by any stretch, but sometimes electronic/automated systems are solutions in search of a problem.

Re:Big Deal

[teh31337one]

Exactly what I was thinking. They started using thumbprints for the library in my school back in 2001. (It was a UK school)

Re:Big Deal

[molecular]

Big deal schools in the UK and NZ have been using this method for checking out books for ages.

And from that fact you're deducting that it's no harm?
Well, using that logic: To kill a jew is ok, because the nazis have killed millions.

You try to get a six year old to remember a pin number or library card.

remember a library card? you certainly mean "hold on to" one. I should expect that from someone as soon as I trust her with returning a book.
Not remember a pin? I had to friggin memorize poetry at that age.
Also: it prepares them for the real world, where you have to remember (or store securely) numerous PINs and PWs.

I have to agree with NO2ID: introducing this at that age just conditions them to put their finger on everything that blinks and says: "put finger".

Also: the excuse that it's just a mathematical representation of the fingerprint being stored/compared (what else!) is bogus, because you can always compute that ID when you have a scan and you can also compare that ID to other ones in the same representation (you can also maybe even cross-compute between different presentations), which is exactly where privacy is hurt, because then data from multiple bases can be combined to paint a bigger picture of THE PERSON the print belongs to.

Re:Big Deal

[drinkypoo]

In the US, teachers literally don't have enough hours in the day to meet the requirements in many cases. Now you want them to be the librarian, too? Mind you, my school worked like your school, but I wouldn't say I received anything like education there. It was more like indoctrination. There was no personalized learning, everyone was forced into the same box even back then. I was in GATE (gifted education) and for kids my age participation was limited to using the speed-reading machine (in a group) and doing logic puzzles, doing all the same ones I might add, i.e. there was no personalized learning even there except for sixth-graders... which was the only year I didn't attend at that school, of course. The next place I went had nothing.

Re:Big Deal

[TheThiefMaster]

I was definitely trialled at my UK high school, 10? years ago.

Re:Big Deal

[gyrogeerloose]

Back when I was in elementary school, all you did was pull a card out of the pocket in the front of the book, write your name and room number on it and drop it in a box. There was no "system" because computers were hugely expensive, not to mention being the size of a pickup truck back then. The librarian knew us all by name and if a book wasn't returned on time, she'd come looking for us in class.

Now, get off my lawn--it's time for Matlock.

Re:Big Deal

[0100010001010011]

Gone to is the nostalgia of seeing who checked out the book in front of you. I remember in elementary school having kids finding books that their older siblings or even parents teachers checked out. In their original 5th grade hand writing no less.

Re:Big Deal

[Adrian Lopez]

Big deal schools in the UK and NZ have been using this method for checking out books for ages.

Given the UK's general attitude toward its citizens' privacy, saying UK schools have been doing this for ages doesn't exactly support your position.

Re:Big Deal

[colonelquesadilla]

Back when I was in elementary school we wrote cuneiform on clay tablets. Gilgamesh was always checked out, although there was a lot of debate as to whether it was suitable for a school to have.

Re:Big Deal

[Anonymous Coward]

Big deal schools in the UK and NZ have been using this method for checking out books for ages. You try to get a six year old to remember a pin number or library card. Many also use public barcode lists of users instead due to the cost of fingerprint scanners and in some rare cases privacy concerns.

My 6-year old daughter can recite her 6-digit lunch pin by memory, and she has ADHD. Go figure.

Re:Big Deal

[Alinabi]

You try to get a six year old to remember a pin number or library card.

Yeah, we wouldn't want to do that. It's not like being able to remember stuff is a skill that might come in handy later in life.

Re:Big Deal

[Anonymous Coward]

Back when I was in elementary school we had to blow handprints on the cave walls just to look at the paintings, there was no checkout.

Re:Big Deal

[flows]

Well, my 8 year old has a school card since 1st grade with a pin number, remembered since day one. And yes, it can (among other things) be used to check out books from the school library.

Re:Big Deal

[broken_chaos]

Hell, I was doing this in the mid-late nineties (even the librarian coming to find you bit, sometimes!). My later school(s) eventually upgraded to a barcode on a student ID card (laminated piece of business card-weight paper), but even that was pretty 'retro' at the time.

Re:Big Deal

[Cryolithic]

While I'd like to participate in this fine show of one-upmanship, I have to agree with you. It was cards for me in high school, and computers in college. I really don't see a problem with using a thumbprint for this, and I'm usually fairly privacy minded.

Re:Big Deal

[hedwards]

Suddenly? I remember when I was in elementary school 20 years ago that it was common for the whole class to go at once. There would be a teacher and the librarian there, but we were taught how to do most of the things ourselves. From looking things up in the card catalog to checking them out. There wasn't really a whole lot to checking them out, IIRC it was mostly a take the card out of the book, write your name down, place card in a specific place deal. I don't recall there ever being significant problems with lost books. Or at least no more so than with other systems used at the time.

Re:Big Deal

[betterunixthanunix]

Thus begging the question, what need is there for fingerprint based systems? Personally, I remember a similar situation, where the class would be led to the library by the teacher, and under the supervision of the teacher and the librarian, we would check out books. There was never a need for automation, and we received instruction and attention from the teacher, which is exactly what should be happening.

Really, my point was that we should not be concerned with students forgetting library cards or PINs, since at that age, they should be supervised by an adult.

Re:Big Deal

[sleeping143]

And then we're back to the old-fashioned system of the adults trusting the kids to behave responsibly with the books, which is something many people aren't comfortable with for some reason.

Re:Big Deal

[westlake]

Why are we suddenly expecting 6 year olds to go to the library without any supervision?

Because it's an in-school library?

Because it's the children's section of a public library or community day care center?

Re:Big Deal

[sicapo]

You try to get a six year old to remember a pin number or library card..

I'm already having a hard time with ADULTS users remembering their (self-chosen) password.

Re:Big Deal

[gyrogeerloose]

I really don't see a problem with using a thumbprint for this, and I'm usually fairly privacy minded.

Assuming that the thumbprint is really hashed the way that it's claimed to be, I agree. Simple and elegant, really.

Re:Big Deal

[NVP_Radical_Dreamer]

Being an IT professional myself I see this all the time. Sometimes people just need to ask themselves, is there actually a benefit to having a computer system which no matter how well designed can go down just for the sake of being digital? To me, many times the cost and aggrivation doesnt always justify the "need"

Re:Big Deal

[Jiaka]

The problem here is assuming that everything must be computerized... for no good reason other than everything must be computerized. When I was six, the teacher pulling a card from the pocket in the book, having me print my name, stamping the card and the book with with the due date, and then filing the card worked just fine. I'm no luddite or technophobe by any stretch, but sometimes electronic/automated systems are solutions in search of a problem.

Inventory, late-return spreadsheets, a central database over an entire district, tracking moving children and their withdrawn books. And that’s just from the top of my head. Computerizing the library is a huge, huge positive step forward.

Re:Big Deal

[MikeBabcock]

We did the same thing, right back to grade one. My daughter's class goes to the library essentially alone (a teacher supervising) in grade two. They have no problems checking out books at all.

Re:Big Deal

[MikeBabcock]

Funny, none of the things you listed seem valuable to the tune of a database system. And I actually work for a database vendor, so you'd think I'd be biased the other way.

Re:Big Deal

[srleffler]

Computerizing sign-out of books does make some sense. Once the system is set up, there is much less labor involved in tracking which books are out and when they are due back. The switch to this system may allow the library to be managed by a staff member part-time, rather than a full-time librarian.

It's not clear that the biometric ID is better than using a library card with a barcode, but perhaps the biometric system is cheaper since you don't have to print and issue library cards and deal with lost cards, etc.

Re:Big Deal

[westlake]

Why the heck does a six year old need a library card or a PIN in the first place?

Public libraries form co-ops for inter-library loans, purchases, and cataloging. One card for instant access to 25 regional libraries, community centers, and online services.

My father was the last in our family to graduate from a Red Brick high school. 25 students in his senior class. K-12 in a single building.

In the fifties, districts consolidated to build one of the first suburban campus schools.

In 2010, 2500 students. 200 teachers. Five schools. Two stadiums. Four baseball diamonds. Many other shared facilities on a 600 acre rural campus.

Your kid really does need an ID card.

Re:Big Deal

[tompaulco]

You try to get a six year old to remember a pin number or library card.
I don't see why six year olds in U.K. have more trouble remembering a PIN then they do here in the U.S. My kids have a 5 digit number they have to remember. In the cafeteria, not the library, but the concept is the same.

Re:Big Deal

[AkiraRoberts]

Adults, having the benefit of maturity, are able to be stupid in ways which would be impossible for a child.

Re:Big Deal

[gad_zuki!]

>The problem here is assuming that everything must be computerized... for no good reason other than everything must be computerized.

Where is this book and who has it? How long has it been late? Provide a report of all missing books. Provide a report of all late books, fees, and the addresses of the people with the books. Automate mailings for every book late over two weeks. At six weeks send an email out to the librarian. What are our top 100 books this month, this week, this year, this decade? How do we connect up to our inter-library loan?

Database lookups and networking beat going through files and making phone calls any day of the week. Once your library scales past a couple hundred users then you're doing your patrons a disservice by staying with paper-based technology. Not to mention the expensive cost of human labor to keep doing this stuff by hand.

Re:Big Deal

[martijnd]

I completely fail to see the benefits of this system -- except as a pointless waste of money.

My daughters are primary school students and have no problem with their library cards.

Our local library has a simple self check out bar-code system that ensures that the library just needs a minimum number of retirement age volunteers.

  barcode cards are dirt cheap to produce -- so this whole system doesn't cost the library much money either.

And yes, I do go with them when they visit the library, its a library not a playground.

Re:Big Deal

[e2d2]

Back me ugh ugh ugh picture click click, no keep. SMASH!

Re:Big Deal

[DerekLyons]

Do try and pay attention - we're talking an elementary school library here. Most of the issues you cite aren't in the least bit relevant. The balance worked out just fine without automation. (And actually, probably worked better - as while a computer can help you locate a book, it can't help you to discover a book.)

Re:Big Deal

[gad_zuki!]

>Do try and pay attention - we're talking an elementary school library here.

Do try to learn how to think. An elementary school can have hundreds of students. The ones in my city do.

Re:Big Deal

[sjames]

Exactly. And if you didn't remember the room number, just tell the librarian your teacher's name and she would tell you the number.

Perhaps what the schools really need is enough adult employees to actually watch the kids.

Re:Big Deal

[sjames]

If the schools would quit spending scads of money on fingerprint scanners, metal detectors and other gadgets, they might have enough money to hire enough teachers to actually watch the students.

Re:Big Deal

[Jiaka]

I'm not sure I explained it well then. I'm a librarian though, and I'm biased towards having the saved labor. All books and patrons in one database, which allows quick cataloging, book loans between institutions, scanning a barcode vrs illegible handwriting, tracking, weeding statistics...all at a button press. Some of those processes used to take weeks, with a high error rate. Now that I think about it, how can you *not* see a need for a database when dealing with tens of thousands of cataloged books?

Re:Big Deal

[Cryolithic]

Even if it isn't, is it any different than storing a picture on file?

Hidden agenda

[RobVB]

I'm fairly certain there's a hidden agenda here. They say it is a voluntary system, but what they mean is that privacy conscious students won't have access to the library. Libraries hold books. Books hold information. Information leads to knowledge. Knowledge is power.

They're taking the power away from the privacy conscious people. It's a conspiracy, I tells ya!

And no, I'm not paranoid. It's not paranoia if they really ARE out to get you.

*looks over his shoulder*

Re:Hidden agenda

[maxume]

Thumbprints are personally identifiable. That does not make them private.

Or are you wearing latex gloves right now?

Or is it that you think the library should be prevented from keeping a record of the students that they have loaned books out to?

Re:Hidden agenda

[BitZtream]

Hidden agenda?

If they want your fucking finger print they can get it from any of the several thousand other impressions you make during the day. From the desk you were sitting at, the papers you turn in, the locker door you open, the toilet you flush.

You're finger print is hardly 'sensitive private information' considering you leave it ALL OVER THE PLACE.

If this scares you, you're retarded, ignorant, and stupid. Yes, paranoid is in there somewhere too, but the others rate far higher on the list of your issues than it.

Its just a different form of library card that doesn't require you to carry ANOTHER card with you since everyone one freaks out and is afraid that one card would make it easy to figure out what you do, we can't just use one card. Too bad you can just do a couple google searches and compile the list anyway.

If someone is going to 'watch you', they'll do it regardless of if you use a card, a signature, or a thumb print to check out your 'how to get laid on slashdot' rags from the local library.

Re:Hidden agenda

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't libraries already keep information on the books you take out... IE: A library card? I'm failing to see the difference here.

Re:Hidden agenda

[AdmiralXyz]

Your post almost looks like it could be sarcasm*, but you never can tell on this site, so I want to point out that it's not like libraries were havens for privacy before. You could never just walk into a library and anonymously check out a book: you had to have a library card, and the record of everything you've ever checked out was associated with that card, and therefore, with you. The only difference here is that your thumbprint is being substituted for the card.

Move along, folks, nothing to see here but Slashdot sensationalism.

* And if it is, then this post is aimed at the people that modded you Insightful.

Re:Hidden agenda

[Main Gauche]

"I'm fairly certain there's a hidden agenda here. They say it is a voluntary system, but what they mean is that privacy conscious students won't have access to the library. Libraries hold books. Books hold information. Information leads to knowledge. Knowledge is power."

I'm fairly certain that Yoda has a schizophrenic brother.

Re:Hidden agenda

[truthsearch]

Or is it that you think the library should be prevented from keeping a record of the students that they have loaned books out to?

When I was a kid we were given personal identification. It was just 2 words, easy to remember, with the second word being shared among my family and the first word being unique to my generation in the family. We would share it with the librarians so they could keep track of who borrowed each book.

I remember it working quite well. Whatever happened to that system?

Re:Hidden agenda

[pmontra]

Hidden agenda?

If they want your fucking finger print they can get it from any of the several thousand other impressions you make during the day. From the desk you were sitting at, the papers you turn in, the locker door you open, the toilet you flush.

Think about the cost of collecting fingerprints on every desk and associate them with a name compared to the convenience of people voluntarily providing you both.

Re:Hidden agenda

[RivenAleem]

I think the problem is this:

They say that no image of the finger print is kept, but instead a "mathematical template".

What if at some point down the line sell/give all the mathematical templates and the method with which the templates were created to "The Man". Then it becomes possible for "The Man" to get thumbprints from say, a crime scene, or other place and convert it to the same mathematical template and, erm, finger you as a suspect?

Again, you'd have to be ultra paranoid, or have a major stick up your butt in relation to privacy to be worried of this. But people seem to be operating under the view that if you budge an inch "The Man" will take a mile.

Re:Hidden agenda

[maxume]

The librarians got lazy.

I really don't see what difference you see between a name and a thumbprint, they are both essentially public information that is roughly tied to a certain person. I suppose there is some raving-loony scenario where a nefarious criminal manages to pull a thumbprint out of the database and plant it at a crime scene with other corroborating evidence during a time period where the owner of the thumbprint does not have a decent alibi, but I don't find myself breaking into a sweat over it.

Re:Hidden agenda

[maxume]

I think people with that many concerns about government would better spend their time agitating to make sure it does not become powerful, rather than trying to control their fingerprints (I sure don't find gloves to be particularly comfortable).

Re:Hidden agenda

[betterunixthanunix]

"I really don't see what difference you see between a name and a thumbprint,"

I can go to a court and have my name changed. Where do I go to have my fingerprints changed?

Re:Hidden agenda

[revlayle]

I bet these "Mathematical Templates" end up being a hash. If so, then it is a one way thing, if you have a the hash, you can't get the fingerprint. Hell, breaking down the fingerprint into a a series of bytes (like, an image file perhaps) and doing some sort of SHA256 (or and hash-algorithm with a lot of bits for the output) would probably do the trick - mathematically speaking, no one person would get the same hash (as a 256 bit number is pretty damn big - in the case of a 256 bit hash) and no one could extract fingerprints from the hash.

Re:Hidden agenda

[revlayle]

Of course, the image per scan would not be exact, so the resulting data that generates a hash is not exact, like above, but the end result is the same, a hash.... forgot about the scanning bit not producing an exact image replica of the fingerprint each time

Re:Hidden agenda

[Anonymous Coward]

Thumbprints are personally identifiable. That does not make them private.

Then you should have no problem posting a scan of your fingerprints. It's not as if most print readers (sold as offering indisputable proof of identity) can be fooled by dampened photocopies... Oh wait!

Or are you wearing latex gloves right now?

No, I'm not in the lab.

Or is it that you think the library should be prevented from keeping a record of the students that they have loaned books out to?

They never had to take fingerprints to do that when I was young and it's unlikely to be the most efficient system now. Given the facts, who wouldn't be asking questions about the real agenda behind such schemes?

Re:Hidden agenda

[maxume]

You don't actually need to go to court.

Do you think there should be a law against people collecting aliases?

You seem to think I am awfully blase about protecting fingerprints. You're right. Because we leave them every-fucking-where. What I am not blase about is treating fingerprints as if they carry a lot of weight -- and this system does not treat fingerprints as if they are perfect, it uses them in place of a library card.

Re:Hidden agenda

[Anonymous Coward]

a hospital

Re:Hidden agenda

[camperdave]

I remember it working quite well. Whatever happened to that system?

Too many books being signed out by Justin Case, Ben Dover, Rita Booke, etc.

Re:Hidden agenda

[TheCarp]

Mexican plastic surgeons? Wood shop? I hear people who work in food service moving hot items around quite frequently end up temporarily removing theirs. I mean, they are tiny little groves, it shouldn't really take much at all to abrade them off.
(I know, I too look at my baby soft 'office worker' hands and cringe too....)

Re:Hidden agenda

[DerekLyons]

You could never just walk into a library and anonymously check out a book: you had to have a library card, and the record of everything you've ever checked out was associated with that card, and therefore, with you.

Well, no there hasn't always been eternal records associated with you - I didn't see my first computerized checkout system until I was well into my teens, and even then I don't think they stored everything forever. Storage costs money, something libraries are perennially short of.

Re:Hidden agenda

[betterunixthanunix]

Do you normally leave a copy of your legal identity with the fingerprints you deposit everywhere? No, and as a result, it would require effort to determine that the fingerprints on some table somewhere came from your hand. Of course, this school has a database of fingerprints (or at least a hash of them) and corresponding names, convenient and easy to query.

Re:Hidden agenda

[Lumpy]

your stove.

Turn on a top burner, set it to high, apply fingertips for about 3 minutes.

Viola, fingerprints all permanently changed.

Disclaimer: You will feel a crapload of paint for about 3 months while the 3rd degree burns heal. you may get infections and die. Consult your doctor if you experience fingers falling off.

for a less permanent solution, sand them off. Causes butterfingers as you lose your ability to grip slippery items.

Re:Hidden agenda

[RobertLTux]

of course if you wanted to get a smaller set of data to work with you could just break the print down into a vector image and then run your hash on that (this would also solve the problem of rotated prints and the print size changing (a kids print is smaller than an adults print most of the time)

Re:Hidden agenda

[Zerth]

I don't know about your fascist library, but mine only keeps records of what books you currently have checked out.

Once you return them in good condition, the entry showing you checked them out gets wiped from the system.

Re:Hidden agenda

[Anonymous Coward]

Another idiot that knows nothing about what he is talking about.

Learn about fingerprint forensics...Most are smudged, rarely are they nice and clear and easy to retrieve... It's not CSI you idiot.

Re:Hidden agenda

[imakemusic]

Ok, so say the police take a copy of the database. All they have to do now is take the fingerprint (say, from a crime scene) and apply the same hashing algorithm and compare the results in the same way that many password systems work. You never actually have to see the fingerprint/password, you just need to know that the hashes match.

Depending on how good the algorithm it might not be 100% accurate but if it's good enough to implicate one person then that person can then have their fingerprints taken to make sure.

Pretty tenuous but stranger things have happened...

Re:Hidden agenda

[dummondwhu]

Well, presumably, if you present a library card to someone to check out a book, that card acts as a key to your legal identity in a database or filing cabinet of some kind. So, in either case, the end result is that the library has access to your legal identity which you gave them in the first place because you wanted to be able to check out books.

Re:Hidden agenda

[Aladrin]

It's -optional-. That means that if they don't want to use the fingerprint method, they can still check out books the old-fashioned way: Lots of writing or swiping a card.

I'm hoping you were just trying for a 'funny' mod and people took you too seriously, but... Well, you never know.

Re:Hidden agenda

[betterunixthanunix]

Except that I can always change my library card, just like I can always change my legal identity. Changing biometrics is a fairly difficult thing to do.

Re:Hidden agenda

[maxume]

I don't don't think we disagree all that much, but I would say that I don't believe biometrics should be relied upon, for precisely the reason you give, they can't be changed.

The difference is that I think they can still be used, in situations where it isn't particularly important that they identify someone correctly.

Re:Hidden agenda

[betterunixthanunix]

Perhaps we are looking this from opposite angles? My concern is that someone will be unable to change their identity, because the biometrics will track them down -- I think you see that as a situation where the biometrics will give "false" information, whereas I see the problem being that a person will be forced to carry old identities with them for the rest of their life. My argument is similar to this blog post about Facebook:

http://www.roughtype.com/archives/2010/05/facebooks_ident.php

Re:Hidden agenda

[dummondwhu]

I'm not sure I understand your point. Yes, you can change your legal identity. Are you saying that you wouldn't then provide that new identity to the library to continue checking out books? So, then wouldn't your library card still be connected (or reconnected) to your legal identity?

Or is it that you just want to be able to check out books under a false identity? You might think that's your right, but I certainly think it is my right to know to whom, exactly, I'm loaning something.

Re:Hidden agenda

[dummondwhu]

Well, that clarifies it a bit. I still don't see it as an issue, though. At least it shouldn't be. I'd envision you going to the library and saying, I changed my name, here's my new information and then that print should point to your new identity.

Re:Hidden agenda

[betterunixthanunix]

I am saying that the library will now have a database that relates fingerprints to identities. So, later in life I go ahead and change my identity, but my fingerprints do not change -- and now that database can be used to find me based on my old identity. Don't think in terms of the library, think in terms of witness protection programs, spousal abuse, criminals who want to start a crime-free life, and so forth -- there are a lot of reason why a person would want to abandon an old identity, but biometric data is pretty hard to alter.

Re:Hidden agenda

[maxume]

Well, you can only ever try to abandon old identities, if an associate recognizes you, they recognize you.

The way I see it, biometrics should not be treated as strong identity tokens, because it creates situations where they become valuable to mimic (or even worse, remove from the body of the person) and once they have been copied, they are not revocable or renewable (it may be possible to start over by replacing an entire system that operates with a higher degree of fidelity). So if my bank says "All you have to do is put in your fingerprint and money comes out of the ATM" I will run away and find a new bank, but if my library says "All you have to do is put in your fingerprint and it acts just like your library card", I'm not real worried about it.

Glancing through that blog, I don't see it as despicable or lacking integrity to try to manage or create separate identities, but I also don't see it as societies obligation to ensure that it is straightforward to repudiate a past identity (and the argument sort of falls apart a bit when you consider just how many actors and musicians of recent vintage don't use their given names...).

Re:Hidden agenda

[revlayle]

Well, I guess the library could just use NAMES then and just see who check what out and never worry about math at all, that has to be a LOT better! The police won't find anyone that way... for example.

Re:Hidden agenda

[revlayle]

nice... I wouldn't have thought of that. Hence why I don't work with image scanning and/or manipulation field of software development.

Re:Hidden agenda

[dummondwhu]

I follow, but my point is, systems should be made to follow your current identity.

There's almost no point in having a fingerprint point to an entry in a database that represents a previous identity. The old "person" ceases to exist so if someone wants to find that person, it's a dead end.

I think your real fear is that a person will have a link to who a person used to be and who they are now which can be abused, and yes, I think your concern is valid. But doesn't the government keep those links somewhere anyway? When you legally change your name, does the government (I'm thinking in the U.S. - I don't know about anywhere else) keep that record?

The library or your job or other places wouldn't really have much reason to keep that connection because they're invested in who you are now.

Also, in case we're on different pages, I'm assuming for this discussion that there isn't one huge thumbprint database somewhere, and that the library just has a server sitting there with their own. If we're talking about a big server somewhere, especially government, then I'm switching to your side.

Re:Hidden agenda

[nurb432]

If you really don't see the difference between a library card and fingerprints, then you are lost.

Re:Hidden agenda

[Striek]

I can change my name.

Re:Hidden agenda

[AdmiralXyz]

If you really don't see the difference between a library card and fingerprints, then you are lost.

I really don't see the difference, would you be kind enough to enlighten me? Both can be traced back to you, both can be spoofed, both can be stolen (and the last two are actually harder with fingerprints than library cards).

Re:Hidden agenda

[SleazyRidr]

My mother often makes use of the fact that the library keeps a record of the books she has checked out. When she picks one up that looks kinda familiar but she isn't sure if she's read it or just a similar book, she can see if she's checked it out before, rather than reading the first couple of chapters to realize that she actually has read it.

Re:Hidden agenda

[natehoy]

But only one can be replaced with a new unique identifier. The library can make up numbers for cards, they can't make up a fingerprint. A fingerprint is yours for the rest of your life.

I understand that the library is only storing a hash, but unless the library is using a truly unique fingerprint hashing technique, a breach of the computer they are storing those hashes on could mean that validation data about you that cannot be changed could be used for other purposes. Think of "fingerprint hash" as the equivalent to "SSN". It's not something you can change easily, and for that reason it's something that can be used to identify you with a decent level of confidence. That hash could be injected into any computer that uses the same (or a similar) hashing algorithm, and even if the library discovers the breach there's little they can do about it.

That's where biometrics get interesting. They uniquely (or at least "practically uniquely") identify you, but if someone breaches the system holding it, it's hard to prove it invalid.

If the library makes up their own numbers, they aren't holding any valuable data. If they store something that can be uniquely derived from your fingerprint, they should at least be held to PCI compliance, but preferably a lot higher - you can change a credit card number.

Re:Hidden agenda

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know about where you live, let alone other countries, but where I live the public library asks for extremely little information and NEVER checks up on it. All thats required is a letter (presumably) addressed to you and your residence, everything else you can easily fill with bogus information; date of birth and phone number, no need for a social security number let alone photo id (good luck getting children to keep track of those).

Re:Hidden agenda

[Anonymous Coward]

I remember it working quite well. Whatever happened to that system?

Yeah, well the librarians got sick of listening to a 6 year old saying 'Phock Que'

Old news

[JoeInnes]

My old primary school have been doing this for at least three years.

It's worth mentioning ...

[krou]

... that it's more widespread than the article Snip:

Many schools are fingerprinting pupils without parents' permission, teachers have warned.

It is thought around 100 schools in the UK now use fingerprint identification systems for registration, borrowing library books and cashless catering.

But there is no legal requirement for schools to seek parents' consent for using biometric technologies.

Re:It's worth mentioning ...

[Inda]

I submitted this about 2 or 3 years ago. I even posted a link to a webpage that lists ALL UK schools running fingerprint scanners. The guy running it needs a pat on the back. I enjoyed our email exchange and he enjoyed the scanned letters from the school.

But, I can no longer be bothered, it ended up not being...

Re:It's worth mentioning ...

[mister_dave]

Now that the New Labour Terror is over, things may be changing:

The new government plans to ban the controversial practice in schools of taking children's fingerprints without their permission.

Eh?

[asto21]

Why is it that anytime there is any attempt to use biometrics in a large-scale environment, slashdotters start wailing? (without even waiting to know the specifics)

Re:Eh?

[Monkeedude1212]

Well, these tin foil hats are expensive you know, we gotta make sure we get every penny out of them.

Re:Eh?

[betterunixthanunix]

Well one issue is that it is fairly difficult to change biometrics -- I can change my legal name, my home address, my country of residence, etc., but it would be much harder to change my fingerprints. It is also troubling to think that these systems may become widespread and unavoidable, which further complicates matters (I want to change my identity, but now there are fingerprint scanners everywhere and thus a convenient way to track me down).

Re:Eh?

[asto21]

That's the wholel point, innit?

Re:Eh?

[vlm]

1) Fundamentally all biometrics boil down to is an expensive, unreliable, and mechanically complicated way to generate a string which is used in place of entering a password. Once someone can arbitrarily generate a string of their choice, and they get your particular string, you're screwed, there's no way to change it. They own you. Its a very brittle non-fault tolerant system when it breaks. On the other hand, you can change a password.

2) Universally implemented as a single factor system, which is always a stupid idea. Not necessarily bad by itself, but if only implemented by idiots its guilt by association.

3) The computer never lies. Too many idiots trust whatever the computer says, it could never make a mistake, its perfectly secure. Biometrics is always associate with that type of moron. Again, another guilt by association.

4) The folks that like solutions like biometrics tend to be clinically paranoid, and those folks are a royal pain to associate with, work with/around/for, or hang out with. Again, its not the technology that's inherently evil, its just that its always associated with power tripping antisocial jerks. Kind of like a meth smoking pipe is not an evil object, its just a pipe, but none the less I would never date a chick who owned a collection of them.

Re:Eh?

[hedwards]

Because things were working perfectly fine the way that they were. Most of the problems with ID theft have been due to carelessness of the people that were storing our records. And using flimsy information like mother's maiden name and SSN. Both of which are easy enough to determine without a whole lot of work. Adding a biometric dimension isn't going to solve the problem of sloppy security practices, just provide that much more information to be stolen or abused.

Re:Eh?

[Captain Hook]

What if someone has stolen your identity and is actively using it?

At the moment once it's been established that your identity is stolen and you are who you say you are, you can get new identifying documents with new reference numbers and from that point on you would have no further problems; The old documents can be flagged as being stolen and the holder should be held (ok, we aren't talking about library cards here, but how about passports?) but if the identifying property is something that can not be changed then you are stuffed... for the rest of your life.

Biometrics makes it more expensive to steal an identity (using todays technology) but if it is stolen how do I prove that I am in fact the mild mannered geek I say I am, rather than the internationally wanted drug trafficer the computer says I am?

Re:Eh?

[iamnobody2]

Why yes, yes it is. What we've got here is a difference in fundamental world views.

Re:Eh?

[Striek]

1. They're not being given any choice. Submit your prints or lose library access.
2. They're SIX YEARS OLD!

All for it

[Monkeedude1212]

So the laptops we got for our courses a couple years back had fingerprint readers on them, for you to set up fingerprint login. Toshiba product, I think a Satellite or something similar. Anyways, concerned with privacy, I took a gander on how the information is generated. They pick a series of points, and record tiny bits of information. Which way this line is going, how thick that line is, if it curves, all that little stuff. Next, they take those and encode them into some digital method or another, and at Toshiba, they encrypt it, just in case you wanted another layer of protection.

Now, because its only 6 or 7 or maybe a dozen datapoints, at various parts across your finger, it's impossible to reconstruct your finger print. It'd be like reconstructing a house with a single plank of wood.

So, anytime you use your finger - the data gets analyzed into the datapoints, encrypted, and tested against the database. The Database comes back with your records, and voila!

I wouldn't mind them storing that information, since they can't really use it for much.

Re:All for it

[Frozen-Solid]

The problem has nothing to do with storing that information, or the ability to deconstruct a fingerprint from their database information. You don't have to deconstruct the fingerprint to copy it, you are given dozens of fingerprints every single day, and you give out dozens of fingerprints every single day. Think about every single thing you touch that gets passed onto someone else over the course of a day. Your finger prints are on each and every one of them. I don't know about you, but I'd be hard pressed to give out my SSN once a month, let alone dozens of times a day. Sure, it isn't practical to steal a fingerprint in the wild without going out of your way to do it right and get a nice clean print, but it's not a risk I would like to take. If someone steals my password, or my credit card information, or even my name and social security number, all of this can be changed with varying degrees of hassle. Sure it might take a few days of filling out forms and making phone calls, but it's doable. You can't change your fingerprint. At best you have 10 chances and then you're screwed.

Re:All for it

[Monkeedude1212]

You don't have to deconstruct the fingerprint to copy it, you are given dozens of fingerprints every single day, and you give out dozens of fingerprints every single day.

The overzealous crime TV Shows would have you believe that simple because you touched something, enough of your fingerprint is on there to identify the person, or that it can somehow transcend other physical contact, or that they can stick to -any- surface.

Fact of the matter is, not all surfaces hold fingerprints very well. And criminal investigators usually need to use all five prints in order to narrow the suspects down to a reasonable few.

So I'm not sure where the problem lies. Acquiring someone's finger print would be very difficult. Not only do you have to get them to hand you an object with their finger fully pressed on it, but you also can't let anything touch that area to damage or remove the print. So is someone going to maliciously pull off this master scheme to check out books on my library account? Oh noes!

This kind of biometric system is perfect for these low-brow situations. Libraries, Locker rooms, personal computing.

Re:All for it

[Lil'wombat]

I'm less concerned about faking my prints than I am about false matches. How accurate is this scan and hash method? They only need to lift a fingerprint at a murder scene, run it through the same process and match it to the large database of former US public school students to generate a list of "Persons of Interest" and suddenly you have your life turned upside down.

Re:All for it

[Frozen-Solid]

Yes, it's not as easy as a TV Show like CSI can make it seem but that doesn't make it impossible either. Improbable, but not impossible. It's just as improbable that giving your SSN to a stranger over the phone to handle some account could get your SSN stolen, but that doens't mean it can't happen. My problem lies in that being "perfect for low brow situations" that the definition of a low brow situtation will broaden and next thing we know grocercy shopping will be using fingerprints (oh wait that already happens too). I don't like the idea of using a piece of personally identifiable information that can't be changed for ANYTHING, simply because if a comprimise happens you're done. Regardless of how improbable and impractical stealing a fingerprint might be, the real fact of the matter is IF SOMEONE DOES you have next to no recourse to fix that. You can't just fill out some forms and magically get a new fingerprint, but with every other currently used personal identification scheme you can.

Re:All for it

[Lumpy]

other than validating your identity... The same use for a full copy of your fingerprint...

If I had that hash, I can compare it against other fingerprints to determine identity. Quite useful.

Re:All for it

[Monkeedude1212]

How are you going to get other fingerprints (without already having their identity, of course)

Re:All for it

[Anonymous Coward]

start collecting fingers...

Fingerprint reader guillotine?

Riiights...

[vvaduva]

"All pupils' details are erased when they leave school."

They promise...this time is true! For real!

Re:Riiights...

[TheCarp]

Of course, if they really meant it, then they would allow the assignment of absolutely outrageous damages to the school when this is not done. Very simple, you make the school system, superintendent, principal and vice principal jointly and separately responsible for ensuring that the data is erased and removed from any/all backups within 21 days of the student no longer being enrolled.

If the school is found to be in non-compliance, they shall be jointly and separately responsible to pay damages in the amount of $250,000 to the student or legal guardian, for every 7 day period in excess of 21 days that the information is found to still exist.

make sure that this applies not only to school controlled systems, but contracted systems in the control of 3rd parties on behalf of the school.

You put that into place and I GUARANTEE that this will not end up being an issue.

-Steve

Re:Riiights...

[noidentity]

Notice they said "details". Not "all information", just the details. As to what is a detail and what is not, the devil is in that.

Re:Riiights...

[molecular]

"All pupils' details are erased when they leave school."

They promise...this time is true! For real!

A friend of mine once was promised by his employer that all his data would be deleted when he got kicked out.
He asked: "How do you ensure my data get's deleted in all backup copies?"
No answer, just a red face.
I worked as a contractor for that company at that time in IT. I can assure you: "delete" means: set some flag named "deleted" from false to true.

Re:Riiights...

[Sandbags]

details? As in the fingerprints in the scanning system? Yes, they're deleted. in fact, the entire system is reseeded every year of enrollment, and purged automatically! Why? simple biometric system like this are only accurate enough to get a "good guess" based on fingerprints in a database. The more prints, the less accurate the response.... They remove the old data to make current data more reliable BY DESIGN.

As for all the OTHER student data, I don't know about there, but here in this state, it has to be kept INDEFINITELY by law. My old high school in NY was just forced to go dig out my records from my time there as part of a government background check. It took them 2 weeks, but they had the data in hardcopy in a warehouse (yea, nothing was on computer back then, at least at a common high school level, I'm old). They have to keep that data at least until my death, released only on request by certain agencies, (not even directly to me, because my record contains confidential information from counselors) and will never become publicly accessible data, but its there, and will never be deleted. A fingerprint of a child is barely valid for a few years, its in constant flux, and generally useless to anyone, and is not at-risk data.

Also, everyone seems to have jumped on this system as something that can be easily abused. Did anybody bother to ask what the second factor of authentication was? a pin number, student ID, anything? i doubt very highly simply the thumb print alone is full and valid identification.

We use a similar system at our grocery store. Enter out phone number, thumb print, then a pin number, and we don't need to have our key-fob store discount card, or any credit cards handy, we select the stored method of payment (we can have several) and the pin number for that card (only works with pin, not signature, as they'll have no card to cross validate), and the transaction is done without taking out a card or wallet.

The odds of someone having my fingerprint, knowing my phone number, system pin, and card pin all at the same time, pretty slim. The store backs it up with a guarantee, and the data and card information is stored to federal PCI network standards.

My kid's fingerprint can be lifted almost anywhere. I really don't care if some database stores it for part of an ID validation, so long as validation requires MORE than the finger. Personally identifiable information (PII) is by law defined as not-private information, its just illegal to SHARE that information.

Re:Riiights...

[Sandbags]

Your student record must be kept by law in most states after you leave the school until your death in some places or beyond X years in others, which nowhere do i believe that is less than 40 years. A pin access or fingerprint is not part of your student record, its just an access system used to validate your ID, so it has no reason to be kept. That said, is your fingerprint private? PII (Personally Identifiable information) is by court ruling NOT private, it's just illegal to share that information or to provide unauthorized access, or fail to secure it to current government standards.

Re:Riiights...

[Anonymous Coward]

"All pupils' details are erased when they leave school."

And then the remaining information sold to criminals in order to cower the budget deficit.

Re:Riiights...

[Anonymous Coward]

You put that into place and I GUARANTEE that this will not end up being an issue.

You're just shifting the issue else where. How do you guarantee what you said will be put into place?

Re:Riiights...

[zoloto]

good luck with that

Re:Riiights...

[Anonymous Coward]

"All pupils' details are erased when they leave school."

Yep, but not before they have been lost on a laptop, USB stick, or just left lying on the library counter. I speak as a parent of two children with compromised personal information as a result of HM Government's policy of employing people so thick they can barely breathe unaided.

Re:Riiights...

[TheCarp]

Elsehwere? How is that "elsewhere". Currently, the problem is left entirely on the shoulders of the students who use the library. If any nefarious use is possible, is attempted etc, (fraudulently using their ID, Fingerprint collisions etc) then the student may or may not, according to school policy, be exposed, and will bear the burden of being the victim. Now the risks may be entirely theoretical, but, the choice as to whether to accept that risk is being made by the institution, and not the individual who bears the risk.

My intent is to shift some amount of the risk, an intentionally potentially large amount, onto the institution which is making the decision as to how to implement and which risks to accept within any given implementation. Essentially yes, simply a shifting of risk/cost, but a shifting to where it belongs.

-Steve

Wait till swine flu appears again

[DustCollector]

I briefly worked at a company which used a hand scanner in lieu of a badge. It was unwisely put between your desk and the restroom. It's no secret not everyone washes their hands after relieving themselves, so I avoided eating lunch at my desk unless I had a bottle of hand sanitizer with me.

Now imagine 4 year olds, touching everything and sucking their thumb, and then checking out a book.

Technologically, scanners work well enough. Implementation, however, is done by the foolish.
 

Re:Wait till swine flu appears again

[bickerdyke]

Now imagine 4 year olds, touching everything and sucking their thumb, and then checking out a book.

Sounds like a good possibility to train their immune system and have it in working shape when they encounter the first batch of really nasty stuff. Or avoid having it run havoc at the first gush of birch pollen.

Re:Wait till swine flu appears again

[dummondwhu]

Well then, we'd better hurry up and get rid of door knobs, vending machines, elevator buttons, and the myriad of other things that a lot of people touch on a daily basis. I'm sure that children aren't already touching each others toys, school supplies, desks, etc. already, though, so good catch on this one. In fact, we'd better hurry up and get them all into bubbles before the swine flu gets them!!

Or maybe the librarian could just hit the reader with a little sanitizing wipe every so often. Germ phobia is hardly a reason not to do this. Not when a thumb print reader is just one more thing among a slew of others that a lot of children might touch in a day.

Re:Wait till swine flu appears again

[Lumpy]

Door knobs are impossible to get a fingerprint from. Only bizzare freaks use their fingertips to turn a door knob. Most people use their palm or lengths of their fingers wrapped around it. Therefore doorknobs dont have fingerprints. Ask a cop, they dont even dust them.

Re:Wait till swine flu appears again

[dummondwhu]

Yes, that's true, but getting fingerprints from a door knob had exactly zero to do with the comment I replied to, which made the point that filthy 4 year old children and people who don't wash in the bathroom would be spreading swine flu via heavily used thumb print readers.

Re:Wait till swine flu appears again

[kenj0418]

Now imagine 4 year olds, touching everything and sucking their thumb, and then checking out a book.

This right here is should be much more of a concern to people than all of the freaking out going on here about 'privacy'. I don't understand why people get so worked up about fingerprints. You leave them all over the place all day long - but as soon as someone asks for one for something -- that you already accept being tracked for -- people freak out.

Re:Wait till swine flu appears again

[Golddess]

It was unwisely put between your desk and the restroom. It's no secret not everyone washes their hands after relieving themselves

Wait, so you needed to use the print scanner to exit the restroom? I can certainly believe that such stupidity exists (back when I was in college the dorm emergency exit doors would not open until about 15 seconds after you tried opening them), but just wanted to verify that that is how it was for you.

Re:Wait till swine flu appears again

[Anonymous Coward]

One of the biggest scams is the "hand sanitizer". Outside of a hospital or medical clinic, there is really no reason to use it. It completely kill bacteria, just reduces their amount. Now we get anti-bacterial soap, and anti-bacterial-asswipes and what not. Stupid and pointless.

But I agree that hand scanner is stupid, but for another reason. A simple, scanable badge is much more efficient. Of course the management may be fans of James Bond movies!

Re:Wait till swine flu appears again

[Anonymous Coward]

For those who are conscious of what we touch you can avoid touching the doorknobs, vending machines, and elevator buttons to a large degree and wash frequently / avoid the restrooms. Even at the young age of 7 or 8 I was germophobic. Not all children are going to be dirty and you shouldn't force or assume they all are. By the time I was 11 I managed to wean myself from being obsessed with my hygiene. I can go and use a relatively clean public restroom for instance today or take a piss and just rinse. The point is this is wrong for many reasons. This is wayy to privacy invasive for one. Schools should not be monitoring what students buy/eat in the cafeteria, what they check out (even if they log books that are checked out), or force students to into positions that are uncomfortable or unhygienic. Unfortunately most governments disregard these things and base their decisions off experts who say kids should exercise more. Enacting laws that demand gym classes putting kids at risk. From unsanitary changing rooms to stretching on dirty floors and filthy sweaty body after. Not to mention sports are not exactly the safest activities in the world. It is one thing if a child voluntarily partakes in such activities and another if you force them to partake. The government shouldn't be banning it and they shouldn't requiring it. My elementary school did both. I hated gym. At recess I started a game of tag which became popular and everyone was having fun- no problems ever. Went on for months. One day we were told we couldn't play any more. For safety reasons. Of all things. All we were doing was running around! There was no pushing, fighting, or anything like that. If you got touched it was never hard enough to hurt or cause a problem. It was tag! Games that were played in gym were more violent and dangerous.

Re:Wait till swine flu appears again

[niftymitch]

Not just the flu.
There is a fungus killing amphibians, all around the globe.
Virus, fungus, bacterial....

people not technology

[vxice]

People misuse technology not the other way around. As long as there are security measures in place and the data is not being used for anything they say it is not then there really should be no concern. You are just identifying these students and like they said schools keep a lot of personally identifying information on hand that could be abused. They also mentioned that the system is voluntary and as for the template thing, that is standard procedure when collecting fingerprints and almost all biometrics. Templates that can be matched against take a lot less storage space and are easier to match against.

Is this that uncommon?

[fatnickc]

Thousands of schools already use fingerprints for registration, as well as in plenty of their libraries. I guess most of them are 11+ or 13+, but is it really so different just because this is in primary schools?

"No image of a thumbprint is ever stored"

[kieran]

As far as I'm concerned, that's enough to move this project from "appalling" to "kinda awesome". I'm not sure what (the otherwise excellent) NO2ID are on about here.

Re:"No image of a thumbprint is ever stored"

[RivenAleem]

What is a mathematical template of your fingerprint if not just another representation of your fingerprint image?

It's like saying "we have the names of everyone right here, but it's okay, we wrote them down backwards so that only we know who they are"

It's a simple step for anyone to take an image from a crime scene, convert it into the same mathematical template and make a match with one of these school kids. Now that may, in the greater scheme of things be a good thing, it catches a possible criminal. But it still is somewhat infringing on people's privacy. Atleast, that's how privacy nuts will view it.

Re:"No image of a thumbprint is ever stored"

[Nakor BlueRider]

Not that I'm against this use of thumbprinting, but I wonder how effective the mathematical template is at maintaining privacy. Theoretically even if they don't have the actual thumbprint on file, could they not still check a thumbprint they find somewhere against their student database by running it through the same template and seeing if it matches the result of any of the students' prints? They may not have the students' thumbprints themselves to compare against, but they still effectively have a hash from it. This would prevent them from producing the student's thumbprint from their hash and using it elsewhere, but not from finding a thumbprint somewhere in the school and comparing it to their database if they desired.

Re:"No image of a thumbprint is ever stored"

[VJ42]

As far as I'm concerned, that's enough to move this project from "appalling" to "kinda awesome". I'm not sure what (the otherwise excellent) NO2ID are on about here.

If it works like we've been looking at (I work in library systems) it just takes the thumbprint, turns it into a hash and stores that, then every time you want to take out a book it just matches the stored hashes against the one of the person currently trying to take out a book. No personal data is stored & the thumb print can't be recreated as it doesn't use the whole print, only certain points. It's actually an (unusual) example of Biometrics done right! I donate to NO2ID, I'm going to email them and explain this to them.

Re:"No image of a thumbprint is ever stored"

[vxice]

actually images of fingerprints or any biometric for that matter are ever actually kept. Templates are almost always used, they are simpler to match and use less storage. Think of it as a one way hash, the image is collected and then the template is created. In the case of fingerprints minutia points are noted, details such as the delta point, which is on almost all fingerprints a delta or triangle shaped feature made up of many ridges usually on whirl type fingerprints. Other points of note are where there are divergences of the ridges or convergences called bifurcation points. Fingerprints used to be classified by their 1st degree features or features which could easily be seen by the naked eye, weather it was a left whirl, right whirl, or one of several other categories. Bifurcation points are 2nd degree features which can still be seen by the naked eye but are smaller and harder to see. Then there is a third level which is the location of the pores which requires magnification. Human recognition of fingerprints also involves the 2nd degree features. Computer matching is usually done entirely on the 2nd degree level because it is surprisingly hard to program a computer to match 1st degree features and rather pointless since it does not limit the search space much a feature which is very important when humans are sorting or matching anything. A good match would have all the minutia points listed on the template, however users don't always place their finger the 'exact' same way every time so some rotation and acceptance of missing points is to be expected. The rotation is easy to deal with, missing points as long as those points are not seen at all it can be acceptable as long as all the present points match and not too many are missing. If the scan is not good enough the user can be asked to scan again.

Re:"No image of a thumbprint is ever stored"

[Gordonjcp]

It's like saying "we have the names of everyone right here, but it's okay, we wrote them down backwards so that only we know who they are"

No, it's not. It's like saying "We noted down the first, fifth and last letter of your nick, and a couple of others in the middle, so we know it starts with R, has an N in the middle and ends in M, and there's a V and a couple of Es in there".

Re:"No image of a thumbprint is ever stored"

[krou]

I suspect they're objecting to (what they see) as the conditioning of children into handing over what they consider to be personal information without question (as it says in the summary).

Re:"No image of a thumbprint is ever stored"

[dzfoo]

Isn't the whole point to use to in order to identify someone? Presumably, that hash code is associated with your personal record in the library's database.

As the name implies, NO2ID is against personally identifying and tracking individuals across our society, their concerns are much more broader than specifically biometrics or ID cards. These are mere tools to reach that goal.

        -dZ.

Re:"No image of a thumbprint is ever stored"

[Adrian Lopez]

No image of a thumbprint is ever stored

And how does that stop me from copying your fingerprint data onto other devices, not to duplicate your fingerprint but to duplicate the data that allows me to identify a particular fingerprint as belonging to you?

Re:"No image of a thumbprint is ever stored"

[RivenAleem]

If it is as scant on information as your example shows, then RovinBaleeeem will come out the same as me, and then you got 2 scenarios. It's not accurate enough to tell people apart, and thus doesn't work. Or too much faith is put in it that one person can get blamed for something another does.

It would be hoped that the scanner is accurate enough to identify the thumbprint of an individual in a school of 500, and be robust enough that over 15-20 years, no student come into the school with a print similar to another. If it is accurate enough that this never happens, then the information becomes accurate enough to identify the individual later on in life etc.

I have no feelings on this either way. Assuming that this project is simply for convenience, and not security, then it's okay for it to be somewhat inaccurate.

Re:"No image of a thumbprint is ever stored"

[Hurricane78]

Yeah right. And shoe companies never used child labor.
If the shoe companies say so, it must be true.

Re:"No image of a thumbprint is ever stored"

[Anonymous Coward]

This would prevent them from producing the student's thumbprint from their hash and using it elsewhere, but not from finding a thumbprint somewhere in the school and comparing it to their database if they desired.

Even worse, if the hashing algorithm were standardized enough, they could theoretically share the hashes with other government agencies.

But back on the pro-privacy side of the coin, it's possible that the hash has a low enough level of detail that it's only useful for weak confirmation of identity. In that case, it would ideally produce way too many false positives when used on an unknown print but would still be reliable enough for controlling book check-out (which may have been even less secure prior to the fingerprint system).

Even so, I can still imagine a nightmare scenario: All schools throughout the UK implement the system. All hashes are routinely forwarded to police databases. 30 years down the road, a good bit of the adult population's print hashes are in the system.

A very serious, high profile crime occurs. The prints at the scene don't match any full prints on file (recorded from previous arrests). As a plan B, the police run the thumb print through the hashing system and compare it to the information collected from schools. 1000 matches pop up. 600 are ruled out based on location. Another 300 are ruled out based on information in their medical files not matching forensic evidence at the scene (say, a drop of blood from the perpetrator). 100 suspects are left.

Because the pressure's on, and they've narrowed it down to just 100 people, the police round them all up. 1 criminal and 99 innocent people are brought to the station and forcibly fingerprinted. The criminal's caught, but civil rights continue to erode.

That being said, I don't consider the scenario all that likely. But it's still something to keep in mind, especially given the UK's privacy track record -- in particular, they seem to be going overboard with surveillance cameras.

Re:"No image of a thumbprint is ever stored"

[skelterjohn]

It's a hash. Clearly there are better hashes that won't have the same result for RivenAleem and RovinBaleeeem.

Re:"No image of a thumbprint is ever stored"

[Nakor BlueRider]

If I read the article correctly, the thumbprint isn't being used as a password of sorts, but rather the only method of identification at all. Therefore even a single false positive within the school is a major problem as the system would have no way of telling between the two students whose hashes are identical. Thus the hash must be specific enough for false positives to be highly unlikely within any given school's population across all schools using the system.

Re:"No image of a thumbprint is ever stored"

[tompaulco]

Does this mathematical template have a name? Like CCITT Group IV TIFF or something clever like that?

Re:"No image of a thumbprint is ever stored"

[dcollins]

"As far as I'm concerned, that's enough to move this project from 'appalling' to 'kinda awesome'."

Does that not smell like total and complete bullshit to you? I'd challenge someone to ask about actually verifying that by auditing the system.

Re:"No image of a thumbprint is ever stored"

[VJ42]

Isn't the whole point to use to in order to identify someone?

You mean like a library card? NO2ID hasn't issued a statement against library cards as far as I know.

Presumably, that hash code is associated with your personal record in the library's database.

Just like a library card is. I can pull up the record of any of our students and find out their name, address*, student number and some other stuff - at the moment we use their student numbers in the form of a barcode that we scan to quickly get their library record.

*To send them overdue notices.

As the name implies, NO2ID is against personally identifying and tracking individuals across our society, their concerns are much more broader than specifically biometrics or ID cards. These are mere tools to reach that goal.

Indeed. However, this is the wrong target; what we (and lots of other schools & colleges) do, is issue students with a single student number & card; they use this number to log in to college PCs, the VLE & use the library - since last term they've also needed the card to get onto the campus using an RFID access system. Internally that same student number is used on all the college databases & systems that the student is on. It's much worse than what this school is doing, but I'm actually OK with it since I know that all that data is deleted after the students leave. It's not as if someone who stole it could use it for identity theft or anything anyway; we don't keep enough human readable info on a single database (see below). Why do we need this data you ask? To provide better services to the students year on year, for example every year I write a report showing how much we spent on each curriculum area & how well that section has been used. Other people around the place use it for monitoring the demographics of our students and to see how many complete which courses etc. Some of these are statuary duties so we can tell the government we had x number of students; please pay us £n,000. Others are simply good practice - "Our subject x collection hasn't been used much this year, so lets spend extra on it and promote it more to that area this year".

It's also worth mentioning that all these databases are mostly decentralised - sure the library pulls bits of data from the registry & HR databases, and IT do the same for active directory so we can all log on to the college computers, but they aren't linked in some Master database with all info on all students & staff somewhere, all the systems only have the data they need to give students & staff their best service. I'll give you £100 if you can find a state run school or college that has the resources secretly monitor students anyway. IT depts. & Libraries don't have the time or manpower; management doesn't have the competence - besides even over all our databases we don't keep enough useful info for identity theft and a lot of what we do keep is useless & unknown even to the student; what course does X01234/567 mean? Someone in the registry department may be able to tell you off the top of their head* but I'd have to look it up on a different system if I needed to find out what course the student was on & he couldn't tell me as that's all we share electronically (it's all we can be sure is totally unique).

*Actually I just made it up, using the same structure, so they couldn't.

Re:"No image of a thumbprint is ever stored"

[Anonymous Coward]

If it isn't stored .. what's the point in taking the print in the first place

One Word:

[Anonymous Coward]

Fascism.

P.S.: I am dismayed, but not surprised, to learn that a company as UNEVIL as Google used MicroCRAP
software.

Yours In Smolensk,
Kilgore Trout.

Not news

[dandart]

We did this 6 years ago in my secondary school in Somerset!

Fingerprint != Private

[Mabbo]

Your fingerprint, like most biometrics data, is not what I would call "Private information". You leave it lying around all of the place, all the time. Your face isn't private, in fact it's probably the most public thing about you. Your DNA is very much the same: your drop it everywhere. The only thing that makes it pseudo-private is that it's generally a bit hard to obtain- but not really.

If I were a kid at that school, I'd start signing out a lot of books under a teacher's fingerprint. I'm sure a lot of them have seen the mythbusters episode where they do that sort of thing. It's not difficult.

Re:Fingerprint != Private

[RivenAleem]

Privacy nut: "They are keeping records of all your private information, all your biometric data. We need to stop this!"

Me: "Your voice is private biometric data. So shut up."

Re:Fingerprint != Private

[betterunixthanunix]

Do you commonly tag your biometric data with your legal identity? Sure, my fingerprints are left on the counter when I buy something at the corner store, but I do not sign those fingerprints with my name. When you start using fingerprints for library records, you essentially have a convenient database for tying those fingerprints to the people who own them, without the effort that was once necessary to do so (i.e. following someone around, picking through their trash, and so forth).

Re:Fingerprint != Private

[tompaulco]

Your fingerprint, like most biometrics data, is not what I would call "Private information".
I still say it is private. I may choose to or not to leave it all over the place, as it suits me. However, that does not give anyone the right to ask me to provide it to them. The same for my face. People can view it in public, if I choose to, or not, if I choose so. However, people should not be able to just come up and take a photograph of me without my bidding.

Re:Fingerprint != Private

[westlake]

If I were a kid at that school, I'd start signing out a lot of books under a teacher's fingerprint. I'm sure a lot of them have seen the mythbusters episode where they do that sort of thing. It's not difficult.

That depends on the sophistication of the scanner - and the security camera that may be mounted as a backup when your thefts are discovered - and "theft" is the right word here.

Re:Fingerprint != Private

[FlightTest]

And so is your writing style. So stop posting to /.

The problem is it doesn't work well

[Chrisq]

I know a couple of schools that use the system, and unfortunately a large number of thumbs are "unscannable". This means they are singled out to carry cards or something else, which (like almost anything else that makes kids stand out from the crowd) embarrass them.

Re:The problem is it doesn't work well

[theJML]

I was wondering the same thing myself... here at work we have biometric scanners to get into the data center. most people use their index finger, but the machine would not pick up my index finger (Busch Gardens, a theme park near by, also tried the same sort of deal for pass holders, but my finger never worked on their machine's either so they always just wave me through). I ended up having to use my thumb after a few other tries at various fingers. I wonder how many of these students have to use a finger instead of a thumb, and how many others just have trouble being scanned anyway.

On a boot note, I know personally I've had times where even my thumb had suddenly become either unreadable, or what was read was not verifiably me and I was locked out of our data center. This didn't make me feel too great about using biometrics as a whole. Personally, though I think it's cool in that 'not easy to loose your key' way, it really sucks in a 'so, yeah, you still got the key, but is it actually going to work today' way.

Re:The problem is it doesn't work well

[Anonymous Coward]

Whatever. Whenever you deal with a large group of people a certain percentage of them won't fit exactly into whatever norm you're looking at. Somebody is always singled out. I get tired of this "waaah it'll embarrass them" crap. Guess we should just do nothing, ever, because of the small sliver of potentially different people.

Re:The problem is it doesn't work well

[tompaulco]

Imagine trying to match a child's dirty fingerprint to a database.
In the real world of forensics, a print does not lead you to a single person, but brings up a list of possible matches for a human to look at and evaluate. The same is true in a biometric reader. This is why every biometric meter I have come into contact with also requires you to enter a pin number or other information in order to verify your identity. The biometric data is useless by itself, but once the PIN is entered, it is able to verify that the PIN is associated with a group of possible matches that include your fingerprint.
Now, they would either have to employ a forensics specialist to look at all the possible matches from the kids fingerprint, or they could just have the librarian ask the kid their name.
Reading the story, they are already doing the latter in addition to the scanning, so the biometric system is only there to verify if the name given really is a possible match for the fingerprint given.

Re:The problem is it doesn't work well

[Anonymous Coward]

Are your hands usually dry? I mean, do you have dry skin on your hands. You might try washing you hands and then immediately trying. Very dry hands causes fewer readible "points", although wet hands has the same effect (plus might fry something) If you wet your thumb, wiped it off, then tried it, I bet it would take.

LIBRARY CARD

[yaDad]

what the hell is wrong with a library CARD. hasnt this been working for years. if you cant keep up with a library card you might have problems later on in life. further than that why not just use the NAME of the student who has the book. IDIOTS!

Re:LIBRARY CARD

[Monkeedude1212]

what the hell is wrong with a HORSE. hasnt this been working for years. if you cant keep up with a horse drawn carriage you might have problems later on in life. further than that why not just use the FEET of the person who has to walk. IDIOTS!

Re:LIBRARY CARD

[yaDad]

did you walk to school or did you bring your lunch?

Re:LIBRARY CARD

[Monkeedude1212]

both?

Re:LIBRARY CARD

[Gandhi of War]

Not to interrupt this love boat, but I work at a library.(in fact, I'm at work right now.) And I have to say that this new system would save alot of trouble. People forget things, I'm sure you've forgotten things before, I know I have. We are able to use a person's license if they've forgotten their card, but for kids who, obviously, don't have their licenses yet, we just ask them their address or birthday.

Despite us making it easy for people to check things out if they've forgotten their cards, people still manage to get pissed off when we can't help them because they've forgotten all their stuff. But with this new system there is no way to forget your ID device. And if somehow you have forgotten it, I suggest you get to a hospital.

Re:LIBRARY CARD

[Anonymous Coward]

what the hell is wrong with a library CARD. hasnt this been working for years. if you cant keep up with a library card you might have problems later on in life. further than that why not just use the NAME of the student who has the book. IDIOTS!

Kids lose cards... they much less frequently lose their fingers.

As for just using the students name, its too open to abuse: Timmy takes a book and but says he is Bob, now Bob is liable for a lost book that was never in his possession. This allows a more automated system to be put in place -the librarian doesn't have to know every student by sight in order to ensure that Bob is in fact Bob.

Re:LIBRARY CARD

[yaDad]

its just that it seems a little much to me...A library card worked fine for me for many years. If you forgot your card you didnt get a book. Dont see the need to inject technology to the simplest and basic concept of the library

No opt-out

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem with bad ideas like this is that there is no way for those kids (or their parents) who think such Orwellian shenanigans set a bad precedent to opt out. Some idiot administrator has made the final call, and now, if you want to use the library, you have to conform. This is what schools teach. In addition to mediocre math, science, art, music, and physical education; schools primarily exist to teach the value of conformity. You must agree to abide by arbitrary and often quite stupid administrative decisions, and furthermore, you must learn to accept that this is the way of the world. No-one ever distinguished themselves by being like everyone else. Is that a lesson you'll learn in public school? Not a chance.

Re:No opt-out

[VJ42]

The problem with bad ideas like this is that there is no way for those kids (or their parents) who think such Orwellian shenanigans set a bad precedent to opt out.

Wrong RTFA:

She confirmed it would be extended to all pupils, adding that parents would be given the choice to opt in or out.

Also, as I mentioned elsewhere, these things usually store a hash of parts of a thumbprint, not images of full thumbprints; I'll bet this is the same (the article even says no image is stored). It's no where near as Orwellian as you make out.

Re:No opt-out

[Sandbags]

Bingo.

Re:No opt-out

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure, you can opt out by not allowing your kids to check out books. Or is there another alternative system in place? If there is an alternative system, then why are they maintaining TWO systems? Please answer.

And you're missing the main point. It's not Orwellian because they are collecting biometric information, it's Orwellian because kids are taught, from a very young age, that giving away your fingerprints is a fine and dandy idea. Do you think kids are making these choices because they've been informed, and understand, the consequences of giving away identity information? Not a chance. They are being taught that you should just do what you are told, because it's better that way. They are specifically being taught that fingerprints make an excellent identity system. Bad bad bad.

Re:No opt-out

[VJ42]

Sure, you can opt out by not allowing your kids to check out books. Or is there another alternative system in place? If there is an alternative system, then why are they maintaining TWO systems? Please answer.

If it's like any other library system I've used (I work in library systems in FE) you can also get the reader record by typing in the student's name, it just takes longer. Where I work we scan barcodes on the students library cards, but if a student doesn't have their card, I can still ask for their name & something else to ID them (e.g. first line of address) so they can take out a book. It's unlikely primary school students would have this back up knowledge, so using parts of a thumbprint as a unique identifier means they will always have quick access to the library. I expect that a list of those who opt-out will be kept so that the student will have to give their name and the librarian will check against the list that the student is on it then issue the book by typing his name into the system. Obviously some sort of ID system has to be in place so you can check which student has which book - and tell them to bring it back if they keep it too long!

And you're missing the main point. It's not Orwellian because they are collecting biometric information, it's Orwellian because kids are taught, from a very young age, that giving away your fingerprints is a fine and dandy idea. Do you think kids are making these choices because they've been informed, and understand, the consequences of giving away identity information? Not a chance.

It's the duty of their parents to be informed & inform their children. Can you tell me what the consequences of giving away parts of a thumb print that is subsequently hashed and kept for the duration of the time that child is at that school is anyway?

They are being taught that you should just do what you are told, because it's better that way.

No more than any other way, at Primary school I was always taught by my parents to listen to my teacher, but they could also opt me out of certain controversial things if they so wanted. Actually, they never did, but I grew up always questioning authority anyway; I don't see how this is different from listening to your teacher in any other way.

They are specifically being taught that fingerprints make an excellent identity system. Bad bad bad.

In this case it's actually an unusual example of Biometrics done right. I've posted in more detail here: http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1671388&cid=32418990 Biometric data can be misused in many ways, but there's no need for knee jerk reactions when the data is not being misused and the system is actually being implemented in a way that works both for staff and students whilst maintaining the exact same amount of privacy as a library card would. Possibly more privacy as library cards where I work also have the students full name and picture on them so I can visually ID them (i.e. they can't nick someone else's card and borrow books on that) or find out their name if they are misbehaving - This system dispenses with the need for that.

The new UK government

[rpjs]

Has already announced that schools will no longer be allowed to fingerprint pupils for any purpose without their parents' consent.

All of this is missing one fundamental flaw..

[NeuralAbyss]

The flaw that most articles on biometric identification, be they fingerprints, retinal scans or other, is that you only have a limited number of immutable keys to choose from. While it may not be an issue in a school setting, if anyone is able to reconstruct the fingerprint or retina picture from the stored data, or at least a fake fingerprint/picture that is functionally equivalent to the real one, it's game over. You only have two eyeballs, and ten fingerprints.

I'd rather a system that allows me to change the key once in a while.

Re:All of this is missing one fundamental flaw..

[zmaragdus]

Toeprints? :P

Re:All of this is missing one fundamental flaw..

[molecular]

toes dude, toes! and for accessing porn conveniently use, well, the most convenient body part for that situation.

Re:All of this is missing one fundamental flaw..

[vxice]

Except, at least in a quality system and since quality is expensive an expensive system, what you are relying on is not necessarily that no one can make a copy but that no one can make a good enough copy. There are plenty of measures in quality systems that check to make sure the fingerprint is from a real finger, from a charge across the finger when it scans expecting a certain resistance from a finger with perspiration which quickly absorbs back into the skin after death to 3d scans of the ridge pattern to the simplest and thus least reliable taking a temperature. It all depends on what you are protecting. High school library books are not likely to be in good enough shape for students to loan them on another students name and sell them. Or to barrow books on another students name to embarrass them or what ever motive students would have to fake their fingerprint. Fingerprints to begin with are only so good to begin with anyways. Iris scans are far more accurate, efficient and reliable. They have not caught on as much due to less experience with the systems, people are far more comfortable with fingerprints some people have actually asked me if there is a chance the system will burn their eyes, and need for more accuracy such as controlled lighting, position and some other factors that make iris collection slightly less convenient than fingerprints as far as collection but the situation is improving. It is also trivial to improve security by creating a multi modal system or a system that relies on multiple biometric modalities such as combining a fingerprint and iris system.

Re:All of this is missing one fundamental flaw..

[Anonymous Coward]

Didn't Mythbusters try some "quality" systems (i.e. expensive) and find that they were actually not measurably better than the "cheapo" systems (i.e. every system readily recognized a laser printout as a valid fingerprint, sometimes more readily than an actual finger) some years ago?

What's changed in the biometric scanning industry that would lead one to discount the Mythbusters survey as out-of-date?

Re:All of this is missing one fundamental flaw..

[vxice]

I don't know about the myth buster test but they are an entertainment show for the most part. When was this 'experiment' preformed and which systems specifically were used? What kind of livness detection did they have. There is a lot of effort to add more liveness detection into these systems especially as of late due to increasing dependence on these systems for increasingly higher security systems. You also have to compare to existing identification technology such as id cards which are extremely easy to fake.

Pervs

[halcyon1234]

It is a biometric recognition system and no image of a fingerprint is ever stored[...] The thumbprint creates a mathematical template.

How can we be sure there isn't some perv getting off to our children's mathematical templates?

Re:Pervs

[Anonymous Coward]

It is a biometric recognition system and no image of a fingerprint is ever stored[...] The thumbprint creates a mathematical template.

How can we be sure there isn't some perv getting off to our children's mathematical templates?

The existence of Rule 34 should allow the opposite to be true: you can be sure that some perv is getting off to your child's mathematical template.

More than it seems....

[Anonymous Coward]

The issue at hand is more than a mere privacy concern. It is a subtle yet existing political move, that tries to mould a generation into thinking that giving up privacy over convenience is a "good thing".

Anonymity

[zmaragdus]

One thing that would prevent the dissemination of fingerprints to authorities would be to hash the output of the mathematical fingerprint transform. Like passwords on a Linux box, a hash will (almost always) allow an instance of a fingerprint to be matched to a person without giving the exact fingerprint itself. In addition, don't store any other data about the person. To resolve late fines/missing books, require all graduating students to go to the library one last time and get a sort of "This person returned all their stuff" slip signed by a librarian (which, of course, would require said person to return all their books and pay their fines).

(Am I missing anything?)

Re:Anonymity

[Anonymous Coward]

As I understand it, the 'mathematical fingerprint transform' is supposedly the hash you are asking for.

Re:Anonymity

[Kijori]

One thing that would prevent the dissemination of fingerprints to authorities would be to hash the output of the mathematical fingerprint transform

I suspect the transform takes care of that anyway - it effectively creates a hash from a small number of points on the fingerprint. I'd be amazed if you could recover a print from it.

In addition, don't store any other data about the person.

Why? This is a school library - I don't really see that there's much risk of the data being used for nefarious purposes, and any anonymity would be illusory anyway since the librarian and teachers will probably know the kids' names. And storing information about the users would be enormously useful - for example to chase up late books and fines.

I'm struggling to think of any plausible scenario where it would be dangerous to store the names of children alongside their borrowings - especially since there are unlikely to be any "dangerous" books in a school library anyway. This seems to me a reasonable use of the technology - saves kids carrying and inevitably losing library cards and doesn't provide any information that the school didn't have already.

Re:Anonymity

[Sandbags]

You know what prevents the dissemination of fingerprints to authorities? THE LAW. a) the scan itself is only a hash, not an image, and certainly not from an evidence admissible source or quality process, so in the first place, no legal authority even cares. b) request of that data would have to be mandated by a judge in an active case and after a search warrant was issued. c) exporting the has of specific students is probably not even possible. d) this data is protected by law the same as any other PII on file with any company or entity. e) the courts can mandate you as a citizen provide your fingerprints or DNA at any time, in association with any active case, in order to compare such to already collected evidence, or anytime you are processed by a prison system for any reason, but if there's no case associated with that data (you, for instance, are suspect of stealing something from school property, and for SOME reason can't be otherwise positively ID'd?). f) this is not a malicious dictatorship with drones who do what the government says, we live in a world of people appointed by US to do their jobs, and where they're held accountable to be themselves imprisoned if the agencies we made them commission to watch their backs find them screwing up.

If some cop requests a fingerprint of my kid, and forced the school to hand it over (and I promise, that is NOT something a school would do without a warrant, they don't give data to anyone unless forced), then that cop would be sent to prison, that judge disbarred, and I;d get a nice half a million payday. I'm OK with those checks and balkanbces such that i believe that system would not be abused (especially given it's lack of any real value to a government agency, being nothing more than a hash in a database, and completely useless without the finger itself to verify the hash).

My company produces similar...

[SeraphEX]

I work for a software company that produces something similar for school cafeteria use. The points of reference on the print are so minimal that we've had to work very hard just to get a decent read. The chances of someone using the code outputted by our algorithm are nil. It is completely unusable data except by our program. The bottom line is that that unless the program is retaining an image of a child's fingerprint, there is no privacy concern here. Anyone who says otherwise is wallowing in their own FUD.

Re:My company produces similar...

[Adrian Lopez]

The chances of someone using the code outputted by our algorithm are nil. It is completely unusable data except by our program.

I guess your algorithm has magical properties that prevent other programmers from using the same algorithm to check against people's fingerprints?

Re:My company produces similar...

[logjon]

You're missing the point.

They probably shouldn't be treated as Id. either

[JSBiff]

Personally, I'm less worried about the 'privacy' of my thumbprint, and more worried that, generally, it's too *easy* to get my thumbprint.

While this probably isn't much of a worry with a school library checkout system, I'm worried that with something like a thumbprint, which never changes, eventually it gets too easy for someone to get access to your thumbprint and 'forge' authentication/authorization.

It's the same problem I have with the use of Social Security No.s - you start out life, and your SS # is basically secret - your parents know it, and it's in the SS Admin.'s computers. Right there, though, because it is in government computers, potentially thousands of people have access to it. Now, your parents sign you up for school, and they enter your SS # info into the local school district database. Then you get a savings account at the bank, and they ask for your SS #. You apply for jobs, and they ask for your social security number. You sign up for a credit card, or a checking account, an IRA, or an application for an apartment, and they ask for your Social Security number. You apply to college, and each college wants your SS#.

By the time your 25 or 30, your Social Security number is in dozens of different databases and millions of employees have access to those databases, and your SS # is basically worthless as a 'secret' which identifies you - it's no longer secret.

You could have the same problem with biometric identification (although at first glance, that might seem impossible), because, fundamentally, biometric information such as a fingerprint, retina scan, or DNA sequence, is reproducible data - ultimately, no system can guarantee that the actual finger or eye or DNA was scanned - all that the 'server' can verify is that the correct 'data' corresponding to previously recorded data, was transmitted over the network to the server. So, compromise a terminal (or setup a computer which masquerades as a valid 'terminal'), then send the correct 'data' from that terminal, and the server will assume that the user's thumb or retina was scanned.

I'm really can't offer any advice on a better alternative, but mark my words - if biometric identification becomes widespread, the identity thieves will not have too much difficulty adapting - as the biometric id becomes widespread, it will get harder and harder to keep the identification 'data' secret, and fraudsters will steal that data like any other bit of data, and misuse it.

The *real* security threat is that people will start to get a stronger and stronger belief in the 'infallibility' of such biometric identification, and so people will lose the ability to repudiate false authorizations. Juries and judges, if they have too strong of an assurance on the evidence provided by biometric identification, may produce verdicts/rulings which unjustly penalize innocent people.

At this point

[Rallias Ubernerd]

I'd quit using the library. I have an iPad (though it was a waste of money) so i can rip books off the internet and use it to read books. They aren't getting my thumbprint. I don't care if they yell at me. I am not giving them my fingerprint. If they try, I WILL bring suit to them. It is against my fifth amendments rights (5 is the one preventing self incrimination, right?). Total BS. And it is comming out of microsoft? Oh great. Microsoft might get my thumbprint. That would be a lawsuit in the comming. Don't deny it. It is something I want to see.

There is no Privacy

[Iffie]

It is sickening how technologists assume the best in people while taking precautions for the worst all the time. We are approching a time where everything anyone has ever learned or been exposed to is known. Grooming and vetting, unexcidental experiences etc. can all be arranged if needed..We may be past the point of no return, and may only become witness to the consolidation of basicly autonomous techonolgy determining our lives..

lose wight

[losewight]

Hello!! If you have problem with how to lose wight, I have advice for you... On this page there are many tips about how to lose wight... It's easy and safe way to lose wight and to be fit.

Cafeteria Using This

[GezusK]

The school system I work for has been using a fingerprint system in one of its cafeterias for the past couple of years. It avoids the problems with kids remembering their PINs, or using someone else's.

Re:They probably shouldn't be treated as Id. eithe

[maxume]

Right. They are easy to get hold of, so they should not be relied on for important things.

And it situations like a criminal trial, they should not be given excessive weight, and a defense attorney should have ample opportunity to talk about why they might not matter in a given situation (that sounds awfully similar to what we do...).

And then

[fishthegeek]

we can match the fingerprints up to the user account that was logged in when the pictures were taken!

I smell a future meme remake:

[Hurricane78]

Owww! Charlie bit my finger off!
And he’s using it to check books out of the school library!

Library system

[Anonymous Coward]

I would always just walk out with the book I wanted. I knew I would bring it back, so I didn't want to go through the hassle of checking it out. So when I brought it back I would put it back on the shelf where I got it from and not in the 'drop box'

Problem with this system before...

[Anonymous Coward]

I worked at a computer lab that used fingerprint scanners for checking in and out. Once I sliced my thumb open and almost didn't get paid for a week of work, and once it healed I had to create a new scan because the scar went through the swirl. Just pointing out the obvious problem, seeing as kids will be kids and easily get cuts and bruises.

Overall Cost / Benifit?

[Anonymous Coward]

When a system like this is put in to place the real question should be "will it save time and/or money?" and off hand I don't see how this would save time or money over using a library card. This smells more like someone wasting taxpayer money, with the money going to our rich friends at Microsoft.

Most comments here so far are about potential privacy issues, but a system like this has even more potential problems that must be considered. Can everybody have their finger prints read? Can they require that everybody have thumbs? (I remember back in school there was a student that was missing a thumb!) If everyone has to touch a scanner couldn't it be a source of spreading disease? How easily could a finger print be faked? Would such abuse be more likely to go unnoticed than stealing someone else's card? Then of course there are maintenance costs and such to be considered. Lots more questions which must be analyzed and weighed, but off hand I don't see how this kind of system would provide an overall benefit (besides making someone in upper management look good).

I work in UK schools

[ledow]

Welcome to 5-10 years ago. There are already hundreds of schools with this system. Look up "Junior Librarian", for instance, who have a fingerprint reader add-on, and that's for primary schools.

Never deployed one, always refused, but am constantly being asked about them.

Re:They probably shouldn't be treated as Id. eithe

[omglolbah]

Biometrics wont stop identity theft.

It just means that when you're compromized you need new eyeballs and a finger-transplant :-p

Re:Not sensitive -- yes it

[stupendou]

There is no way it is a hash of a fingerprint. What it is is a list of features (minutiae in some systems) of the fingerprint. These features cannot be used to reconstruct the fingerprint. They are, however, usable in other fingerprint systems, and also useful to replay into the same fingerprint system, so they should be treated as confidential/private.

Three things

[Overzeetop]

Disclaimer - almost everything I know about security I learned on /. Okay, that out of the way, the most interesting thing I've heard is that security should be comprised of three things - something you are (biometric, unchanging, ideally a function of a live process, like the capillary pattern under your fingerprint), something you have (given by a known authority), and something you know (which can easily be changed). It's not infallible, but it eliminates nearly all of the attack vectors except very, very exceptional cases.

If we can make each of the "fixed" parts (biometric and token) useless without the other two, the fact that either is public knowledge is not a security breach and all of a sudden it doesn't matter that everyone can get your thumbprint (or your SSN, or whatever the ID du jour is).

Re:Three things

[Insightfill]

Okay, that out of the way, the most interesting thing I've heard is that security should be comprised of three things - something you are (snip), something you have (snip), and something you know (snip).

The challenge is that some of these are quite expensive to implement... more than the cost of the resources these things access. If the body responsible for implementing them doesn't really pay for the breaches, then you can expect the cheapest implementation. Compare the variation between slashdot login method vs. getting physical access to some secure government and commercial sites.

"Something you have" often is a good proxy, as the permissions of the credential can often be revoked remotely. Credit cards and access cards (usually RFID-laced) are two examples. This means access is often 'portable' (theft of credentials?) but can be neutralized when necessary. Avenue for attack is then a time-window.

Your SS# has been used as the equiv. of all of them, but rarely does it cost the implementor any real money for mistakes.

Sensitive personal information?

[augi01]

I hope NO2ID also advocates that children (and presumably adults as well) should wear latex gloves at all times in order to protect their 'sensitive personal information.'

Re:Sensitive personal information?

[misexistentialist]

If there were hidden electronic fingerprint readers scattered about that would be excellent advice.

Huh?

[endeavour31]

Since when is a thumbprint "sensitive personal information"? Must be a slow news day.

Pah, did this over 10 years ago

[Karem Lore]

When I was in High school, I developed (not hardware, but the idea and project) for my A-Level coursework an automated library system.
Granted, it didn't use fingerprints, it did use RFID tags in the books and on the library card.

A person would walk in, grab a book, walk out. As they did so, their RFID library card would be logged, as would the books they are carrying, thus a registration of user->book was made.

Any problems may have been just an alarm (user doesn't have their library card on them), or, in a more cynical school, the door to the library would lock and not let you out.

Re:Pah, did this over 10 years ago

[Karem Lore]

Obviously the locked door could be problematic in case of a fire, but these systems were also hooked in to resolve that issue.

Hey man

[Combatso]

Don't Bundy that book!

Headmaster is a retard

[Comboman]

The headmaster has defended the scheme, saying, 'It is a biometric recognition system and no image of a fingerprint is ever stored. ... The thumbprint creates a mathematical template.

Is that supposed to be reassuring? It's a bit like saying, 'Don't worry, I'm not taking a photo of your credit card, I'm just creating a mathematical representation of the number.' Does he think the reason parents might object to this system is they are worried that photos of their children's fingers might fall into the hands of child pornographers with a finger-tip fetish?

By the way, does this mean that Thumbless Joe (the boy our woodshop teacher all warned us about during the table-saw safety lecture) can't borrow books from the library?

Re:Headmaster is a retard

[Culture20]

By the way, does this mean that Thumbless Joe (the boy our woodshop teacher all warned us about during the table-saw safety lecture) can't borrow books from the library?

Thumbless Joe is going to have a problem with the law enforcement officers who grow up learning that biometric data is normal. "Look, you scumsucking dirtbag, if you didn't have anything to hide, why did you cut off your thumbs? You're going up river for a loooooong time."

Uniqueness

[AlpineR]

George Foreman

Re:They probably shouldn't be treated as Id. eithe

[Sir_Sri]

This is the same problem passwords have. And the (first) part of the solution seems to be don't store the password, store the result of a one way function on the password (think hashes or md5's). Ideally these one way functions, even if they use the same algorithm could use different seed values on different databases. Now the trick here of course is that the one way function really really really needs to be only one way, and the places where the data is grabbed (biometric devices themselves) need to be difficult to compromise.

The problem with passwords is largely that there are these large databases of passwords that people compare to. If the database of pwds didn't exist, if it was just a db of hashes on pwd's if it's compromised odds are whomever copied it couldn't just go and try those username/pwd pairs a dozen other places.

No matter what though, there's nothing you can do that on the one hand specifically identifies you and at the same time not be duplicable somewhere else for enough effort.

To give a simple example of a one way function (that isn't unique) is say count the consonants in a word. So if the password is word, then the 1-way function is 3. There's no unique way to go from 3 back to word, so the pwd itself is secured, but then your function so weak that it would accept a lot of other stuff as well, obviously there are a lot of PhD's in math earned concocting more useful 1-way functions than that.

what will they want next?

[Wansu]

... a stool sample? blood draw?

the main issue here

[fireylord]

The point here isnt really this system, the point is that telling 6 year olds that it's ok in life to have to use your unchangeable personally identifiable biometric data to get anything is totally wrong.

Police state? No thankyou!

This is news?

[Eggbloke]

My school has had this for ages (at least while I have been there (5 years) and probably longer) and it's no big deal.

It's not like anyone cares (and it wouldn't really matter if anyone did) what my fingerprint is.

This is no different

[nurb432]

Like hell it isnt.

In related news, one armed man ...

[WillAffleckUW]

In related news, the one armed man was found hacking off other people's arms to present right-handed thumbprints, and the war amputees were found applying wax to other patrons thumbs to get ADA-compliant access to the library, before the severe - or severed - lack of arms shut down the entire system.

Re:They probably shouldn't be treated as Id. eithe

[srleffler]

... ultimately, no system can guarantee that the actual finger or eye or DNA was scanned - all that the 'server' can verify is that the correct 'data' corresponding to previously recorded data, was transmitted over the network to the server. So, compromise a terminal (or setup a computer which masquerades as a valid 'terminal'), then send the correct 'data' from that terminal, and the server will assume that the user's thumb or retina was scanned.

A properly-designed system would have the data sent by the terminal encrypted, so to compromise the system the hacker needs not only the geometric information on your finger or retina, but also the terminal manufacturer's private encryption key.

Someone will have to explain why this is bad to me

[RapmasterT]

Honestly, I don't get the almost pathological paranoia people have surrounding the concept of privacy, without regard to the reality of it. Your fingerprints are not private, you leave thousands of them unsecured around you every day without a second thought...exactly why they should NOT be used as a security key, but that's a different discussion. People should be worried about the improper use and implementation of "security" methodologies, not acting like tinfoil hat wearing nutjobs because someone wants to store the fingerprints they leave on every doorknob in the city.

Same goes for Social Security number paranoia. News flash people, your SSN is NOT private, it is not a secret, it is an identification number...nothing more. No different from the street address on your house, just more permanent. The problem comes from institutions USING it like it was secret, instead of a password or PIN. The solution is not to try to belatedly make SSN something it isn't and won't ever be, the solution is to refuse to accept companies using public information (your SSN number) as if it were secret.

Re:They probably shouldn't be treated as Id. eithe

[JSBiff]

'Hashing' the thumbprint doesn't really solve the problem, because it's *very* easy to get a thumbprint for someone - just grab a soda bottle or cup that they threw in a trash can, and lift the print off of it. If you have it, then you can hash it.

Also, another 'problem' with hashing (as applied to passwords *or* biometric data) is that, the hash becomes the password, effectively. If the only thing which ever gets transmitted over the network is the hash of your password, then I don't need to know the original password - I just need to know the correct hash value to transmit. You could maybe resolve that problem by having a dynamic salt - something added to the password/data which will change the resulting hash in a consistent way - e.g. the authentication server sends the salt value to the client, then they both compute a hash from the secret + salt (which will be different than hashing just the secret by itself), and the server compares what it computed to what the client computed. If you do the salting trick, then the only way to compute the correct hash is to have the original value that the hash is generated from, plus the salt. Old hashes will no longer be valid for subsequent logins.

  The main problem, then in order for a salting scheme to work, you have to store the original password/data on the server so that you can recompute the new hash every time a login attempt is made.

ok then

[fireylord]

Because it is the first stage of enabling turning people into sheep even more than they are now. In a decent society children should be taught to ask 'why?' to authority, not just expect to follow orders like sheep. People are supposed to be citizens, not serfs in a feudal system.

This is about conditioning people to trust the state just 'because' instead of being able, as in any democracy, to question things. Dictatorships and tyrannies implement systems like this, and whilst we're already in a financial tyranny (money as debt. look it up), I'd rather not see our society turn into a 'social' one as well.

  I decline to play your game of a 'list' of things because it is purely a straw man.

Re:ok then

[perryizgr8]

there is no need to ask why in this case. the reason has been clearly communicated: to act as a convenient alternative to library cards. the same thing i could say about a school which tells its students to bring laptops to school. now according to you, children should 'question authority'. whereas it is clear(to me) that a laptop would be very useful in class. of course the school could have open wifi and sniff every child's data stream, but that would be illegal to do. similarly, in the path from fingerprint ids to an orwellian society, there are several things that would be heavily illegal. when those illegal tings are done by a school, you would be free to sue the perpetrators, and make them pay. thus, according to me, it is wrong to oppose this. this is a paranoid stance that will do us harm in the long run. we must assume good intent in others' actions unless clear proof to the contrary is available.

Re:They probably shouldn't be treated as Id. eithe

[Anonymous Coward]

Note, though, it is imprinted right on a Social Security Card that "This card is not to be used for identification purposes."

Re:They probably shouldn't be treated as Id. eithe

[Anonymous Coward]

I've heard this arguement alot. "If someone steals my password, I can come up with another. If someone steals my fingerprint, I've only got 9 left"

The problem is that people don't change their passwords, they use the same password for everything, and passwords are VERY easy to get. Yes, true, ID theft will not be stopped, but it will be slowed to a crawl by a reasonably designed system. You can also do interesting twists, like scan your finger in reverse, swipe at an angle, Move halfway down, then reverse. It's as flexible as a signature and just as hard to duplicate (Maybe alot of you think you can copy someones signature well, but I doubt that too many could do it well enough to fool a system programmed to look for the telltale signs.)

And besides, as I said above (also as A.C. why am I too lazy to log in??) Your fingerprint isn't being stored, just a hash of it. This hash gets compared and scored against the live sample. Hacking the back end won't net them millions of fingerprints. They would need to do replacement techniques to steal your fingerprint. These are easy to find, and since they require either a return to the scene and a line of communication, they're alot riskier for the hacker.

Also, your last point, while it's a good idea to never underestimate the stupidity of people, storing just the hash means that false positives are alot more common, demonstratibly so. You have to have another piece of information to limit the scope. I doubt you'll be leaving your username wherever it is you left your fingerprint, so all they can prove is a slightly increased probability that it was you.

Don't assume a professional...

[Anonymous Coward]

You are, of course, assuming that the school system even bothers to pay a full-time librarian instead of, say, having a secreta^Wadministrative assistant click a button that prints out the overdue books for each teacher's class...

Obligatory

[Anonymous Coward]

Won't someone think of children?

Privacy Loonies

[b4upoo]

Why in the world should a person's fingerprints not be available everywhere to everyone? Is it so the cops will not be able to hunt you down after you commit a crime?

Why this repeated meme?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why this repeated meme? "You leave them everywhere! They're not private!". If you leave them everywhere, then they can't be used as passwords because anyone could pick it up. Passwords are supposed to be SECRET.

Therefore your fingerprint CANNOT be used in lieu of a password.

Yet still they try.

Why?

WhatIf...

[Anonymous Coward]

...Ihavenothumbs?

Conspiracy Theory?

[DarthVain]

Wasn't there a movie where it was postulated that the government would check to see what books you checked out and your reading habits as an indicator of possible potential wrongdoing? I can't remember the movie name... Conspiracy Theory? Perhaps it was Seven? That horrible one with Will Smith (ya ya I know that doesn't narrow it down much... lol)?

Not a good idea

[kipsate]

Although it is not possible to reconstruct a fingerprint from the hash, it may be possible to verify a fingerprint against the fingerprint database.

Even the suggestion that this is possible, is already unwanted.

Smart-ass teacher: "Don't try anything nasty, because we will search for fingerprints and look who did it!"

These are the kind of worries kids can do without.

It's just not a good idea.

We've been doing this for 10 years!

[nry]

OK, did I miss the bit where this was 'new' news? We've been using Junior Librarian software for over 10 years and it has always supported fingerprint book loans and returns! It does exactly the same thing, putting the fingerprint into a file format on the computer which cannot be re-hashed back to the original fingerprint.

Re:They probably shouldn't be treated as Id. eithe

[willy_me]

While this probably isn't much of a worry with a school library checkout system, I'm worried that with something like a thumbprint, which never changes, eventually it gets too easy for someone to get access to your thumbprint and 'forge' authentication/authorization.

A valid concern if the school was recording your fingerprint. But they are not recording it - just a dozen or so points of interest from the print. These points of interest could be used to reverse engineer a fingerprint - but it would only work at that library.

Re:Someone will have to explain why this is bad to

[Anonymous Coward]

Really? The card my SSN was printed on specifically says it is not to be used for identification.

Re:Someone will have to explain why this is bad to

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, let's qualify why the SSN is used... As you said, it's not like your SSN is secret in any way. For instance, I can pull the number 345-63-7540 out of the air (It's not mine BTW). It fits the numerical format, but doesn't correspond to my name in any database and is therefore useless as an identifier. That is the point of your SSN, it's for verification ONLY. It's not a secret code, or a password or anything like that. As a another poster said further down, "By the time your 25 or 30, your Social Security number is in dozens of different databases" It's the association between your specific name and your SSN that's important. And again as the same poster also, said, there's millions of people that have access to those DB's where the coresponding lists of names/SSNs are held as well. Hence, no real expectation of privacy.

Re:They probably shouldn't be treated as Id. eithe

[Anonymous Coward]

What's the problem, it's not like SSN stands for super secret number. It wouldn't even matter if so many organizations that weren't the government would stop demanding your SSN for private business transactions (i.e. my doctor shouldn't know my SSN), but it's become a form of national ID.

Meh

[Anonymous Coward]

My old primary school had this 9 years ago. It's old news..

Re:Someone will have to explain why this is bad to

[RapmasterT]

Really? The card my SSN was printed on specifically says it is not to be used for identification.

that's very true. the CARD is not to be used for ID purposes, the number however has no purpose whatsoever outside of the context of the word "identification". It's a freakin' ID number.

Re:Someone will have to explain why this is bad to

[Anonymous Coward]

Indeed, my fingerprint endsup all over the checkout counter at the grocery store a block from my home. However, you cannot get it from there. You would have to identify it out of many other people's fingerprints. The only way you'd be able to identify mine would be to already know what it looks like.

No big deal

[Anonymous Coward]

This isn't a huge deal. Many schools have been doing this for years to speed up cafeteria lines and for library checkout. Again, it doesn't capture the students full print. Just random points on it.

John
http://www.avidbiometrics.com

Re:Someone will have to explain why this is bad to

[Anonymous Coward]

. Your fingerprints are not private, you leave thousands of them unsecured around you every day without a second thought...exactly why they should NOT be used as a security key, but that's a different discussion.

The solution is not to try to belatedly make SSN something it isn't and won't ever be, the solution is to refuse to accept companies using public information (your SSN number) as if it were secret.

Looks like you've answered your own question.

Fingerprints and SSNs are public information which governments and other orgs treat as private - THAT's the reason for the privacy outcry.

Until we can separate our usernames from our passwords, we need to prevent the use of biometrics (and SSNs).

Security reasoning fail!

[sjames]

So the system doesn't actually store an image of the fingerprint, just some encoding of specific features that will reliably be reproduced if the fingerprint is presented again? That doesn't add to security, it's just an alternate form of a hashed password. Like a hashed password, if you know the hashing algorithm and have a copy of the hash, you can find a string (that may or may not be the original password) that will grant access every time.

Unlike a password, fingerprints are very difficult to change if compromised.

Researched it, Thought about it -- NOT

[niftymitch]

Researched it I am sure they have.

Thought about it -- NOT.

As privacy folk are learning to use isolated individual browsers and accounts to interact with the interconnected tangle that is the Internet folk will quickly see that biometrics cannot be employed in a context sensitive way.

Much the same is true with RFID devices. A reader at the door of a merchant will read ALL the RFID devices. Not just current devices from the merchant.

The set of RFID tags and subsets of these tags uniquely identifies a visitor. As more and more vendors share data for marketing reasons the individual threads of information get woven into a net.

Disney World

[GWBasic]

I just got back from Disney World. Every park has a fingerprint reader at the entrance because they have liberal in-and-out policies and they don't want many people walking in on the same ticket, or room key.

Frankly, considering the amount of cards and keys that I have to carry around, can we just make everything work on thumbprints?

UK schools

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm in the UK, and they were doing this at secondary schools years ago here. There is no privacy policy and no opt-out. It was a case of 'thumbprint of bust'.