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Apple's HTML5 and Standards Gallery Not Standard

Posted by Soulskill on from the par-for-the-course dept.

snitch writes "Apple has created an HTML5 Showcase that presents its vision for the next generation of the WWW. The fact that this page is only accessible using the Safari browser, while Apple advocates about web standards, has caused many to criticize the company's lack of broader platform support. The showcase demonstrates several HTML5 capabilities and features that have to do with video, typography, transitions, audio, etc. Further, on the front page the company states that 'Standards aren't add-ons to the web. They are the web. And you can start using them today.' The latter statement falls short by the fact that the featured examples only work with the Safari browser, and in the case of the CSS 3D transforms demonstration, require Mac OS X Snow Leopard (Safari PC or plain Leopard won't do)."

28 of 527 comments (clear)

  1. Chrome by bbqsrc · · Score: 5, Informative

    Worked for me in Chrome.

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    Disagree != mod troll.
    1. Re:Chrome by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Hmm, why should I have to?

      Every new Apple mobile device and every new Mac -- along with the latest version of Apple's Safari web browser -- supports web standards including HTML5, CSS3, and JavaScript. These web standards are open, reliable, highly secure, and efficient. They allow web designers and developers to create advanced graphics, typography, animations, and transitions. Standards aren't add-ons to the web. They are the web. And you can start using them today.

      The way they say it, makes it seem that you know any HTML5 enabled browser should run HTML5 enabled content.

    2. Re:Chrome by ShadowEFX · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yes, it did. Many of them also work in Opera. You're just - no offense - too stupid to change your browser's User Agent string so that it identifies itself as Safari, which is the only thing these demos check for.

      You are - no offense - an arrogant prick who has missed the point. They claim to advocate standards across the intarwebs for all, putting up a page to view a new whiz-bang standard, but are forcing you to either download their browser, or take (what are to normal users) extraordinary means, to view the content.

      Ability to change the User Agent has nothing at all to do with anything in this case.

    3. Re:Chrome by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You seem to be missing the point: The fact that UA spoofing works is generally proof of either laziness or malice. Laziness is certainly common enough(remember the good old days when large numbers of sites would shriek for IE; but render just fine if FF was set to IE's UA string?); but malice also occurs from time to time(The old Opera/MSN story, for instance).

      In this case, the fact that Apple is just UA sniffing is shabby at best. Just checking for feature support isn't rocket surgery. Neither would be sending the least interesting summer intern to test the demos on a couple of other browsers that are likely to work and accepting those UAs as well. The fact that their "HTML5 demo" is just "transparent Safari propaganda" isn't illegal or anything; but talking up "web standards" and then hardcoding your demo to only work with your browser doesn't exactly scream "intellectual honesty"...

    4. Re:Chrome by Cryacin · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I'd of bought an iPad if it ran flash. I will not be buying another iPhone, as it does not run flash. I will never buy another piece of apple anything because Jobs is a narcissistic prick, who's only trying to wall everyone into his magic garden named the iStore at the cost of splintering the web.

      Good lord let's get some universal standards in place, no matter what the hell they are.

      --
      Science advances one funeral at a time- Max Planck
    5. Re:Chrome by MrNaz · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Criticizing Apple for making a showcase of what they can do with standards not comply with standard browsers is trolling?! What does Apple have to do for fanboys to realize that they are just another GenericBigCompany(tm) who will rape you to death if they thought it'd add 1% to their quarterly bottom line?

      Trolling... Indeed... *shakes head*

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      I hate printers.
    6. Re:Chrome by Snover · · Score: 4, Informative

      css3-transform is not proprietary. Nor is css3-images, which describes gradient properties. The reason that these properties are implemented using the -webkit- prefix is because these standards have not reached candidate recommendation status and are still subject to change. A vendor prefix doesn’t mean “proprietary”—it means “experimental”. Once the standard reaches final recommendation status, which can only occur once two independent implementations have been created, then the vendor prefixes will be dropped.

      For what it’s worth, there are a good number of people within the development community that are not happy with vendor prefixes, but it is the best option that currently exists to ensure that incompatible implementations do not use the same property name.

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      [insert witty comment here]
    7. Re:Chrome by hairyfeet · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Actually I'm afraid it is you who are mistaken, although I won't call you names. If you would have clicked on the first link you would have seen a massive banner that reads "HTML 5 and web standards". Now if "web standards" only work on OSX, we might as well say that IE6 quirks mode is the standard the web should be based on.

      The WHOLE POINT of having web standards in the first place is so we DON'T end up with another broken web with some things only working for client a, others only on client b. If this page where put out by MSFT, and only worked correctly on IE8 on Windows 7, wouldn't everyone have a fit? Of course they would.

      Look, I really respect old Steve, I really do. He took a company on life support and brought them not only back from the dead, but back to the top of the heap. And I understand to a point why he wants to make everything only work the way he wants it to and that is because he wants to control the experience, so that everything "just works" the way he designed it. I get that. But what we have to be careful of is his "vision" polluting web standards so that the ONLY way to get the full web is HIS way. We have already been down that road with MSFT and IE6, just because old Steve is good at making iShiny doesn't mean we should head down that road again, okay?

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    8. Re:Chrome by EriDay · · Score: 4, Insightful

      In this case I think Apple is right to limit the demo to Safari, because at this point not even Chrome works for all the demos. I don't like everything that Apple does, but in this case what are they supposed to do? Due to no standard being set on video, no other browser will properly render the demos. I do question what the deal with the CSS is. Remember, this page is a showcase of Apple's products based on the not completely baked HTML 5 standard - it is not a general HTML 5 showcase:

      If we are to accept what you say then the following can't be true:

      Standards aren't add-ons to the web. They are the web. And you can start using them today.

      Standards aren't standards if they're not standard.

    9. Re:Chrome by Alex+Zepeda · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Woosh. Vendor prefixes are all good and well, but they're *not standard*.

      --
      The revolution will be mocked
  2. Standards and "Standards" by allo · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Apple is Microsoft 2.0

    1. Re:Standards and "Standards" by Sponge+Bath · · Score: 5, Funny

      Apple is Microsoft 2.0

      When they hit Microsoft 3.1, they will have finally achieved a usable level of evilness.

    2. Re:Standards and "Standards" by DaMattster · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I am starting to agree. Microsoft is looking less evil now. In fact, they provided some generous assistance last summer to Samba 4 developement. They helped the Samba 4 developers figure out why DRS (Directory Replication Services) was not working.

    3. Re:Standards and "Standards" by BatGnat · · Score: 4, Funny

      It is only fair! Andrew Tridgell, helped them understand their own SMB protocol.

  3. A very nice HTML5+CSS3 demo that actually works by Superken7 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Yeah, HTML5 is the future and as soon as we get rid of flash the better, but if you are going to try and show how its done, then do it right or don't do it at all, Apple.

    Have a look at this: http://apirocks.com/html5/html5.html#slide1

    This is a very nice demo that doesn't tell you to get XYZ browser. Sure, some parts might not work at all if you are not running on the latest chrome or webkit browser, but most demos work and I find it to be a nicer way of doing things (IMHO).

    (This was part of a presentation done by some googlers about HTML5 a few months ago)

  4. A hard choice by Shin-LaC · · Score: 4, Insightful

    HTML5 is still a work in progress. They could have made a demo that only uses those features which are already widely supported, but it wouldn't have been as impressive. Or they could have made a demo that uses the latest bleeding-edge proposals for HTML5, and let it fail on most people's browsers - perhaps even worse.
    Given that it's meant to be a showcase of things to come, it makes sense to require you to use the one browser that currently works with it. Even Mozilla sometimes releases demos that require the latest Firefox beta to test. Using browser sniffing to enforce it is certainly bad form, but they probably thought that otherwise people would just click through, see a broken demo, and not even realize they aren't seeing what they're meant to see. Hopefully they'll relax the restriction once (if) more browsers implement support for these proposed new features.

    1. Re:A hard choice by tsa · · Score: 5, Funny

      They should have made a demo in Flash so everyone could see it.

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    2. Re:A hard choice by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 5, Informative

      that's not the point. The point is they advertise this as standards demo, not Safari demo.

      No they clearly advertise this as a demo of Safari, and it's support for HTML5. Here's the text:

      HTML5 Showcase The demos below show how the latest version of Apple’s Safari web browser, new Macs, and new Apple mobile devices all support the capabilities of HTML5, CSS3, and JavaScript. Not all browsers offer this support. But soon other modern browsers will take advantage of these same web standards — and the amazing things they enable web designers to do.

      They specifically call out this as a demo of what they've implemented in Safari so far.

      Ie[sic]. saying Safari is the only standards compliant browser, just like Microsoft telling IE is standards compliant.

      No they actually state that "Not all browsers offer this support" which very, very strongly implies that some other browsers do offer this support. They go on to briefly mention how other modern browsers are adding support for HTML5 features so everyone will be able to use these new standards.

    3. Re:A hard choice by e4g4 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      HTML5 is still a work in progress. They could have made a demo that only uses those features which are already widely supported, but it wouldn't have been as impressive.

      Spot on. This is a Safari demo - they appear to be desperately trying to demonstrate why they aren't allowing Flash on their iDevices. At the very bottom of the page, there are two image/link thingys, one that says "iPad Ready" and another that says "Thoughts on Flash". Apple's goal here was to provide the shiniest, flashiest (but not Flashiest) html 5 demonstration they possible could, and only show it to the browser that will render it all perfectly. They're using published standards, that other browsers can (and probably will, eventually) support, and they're publishing the source code for all of the demos.

      I really don't understand what all the vitriol is about on this thread. When your browser of choice can do the things with HTML 5 that Safari can in these demos, you'll be thrilled. What the hell is wrong with Apple pushing open standards? Okay - I get that the h.264 standard, while in some senses open, has some issues, but still - isn't this a good thing? Isn't it good for everyone that Apple is using some of that mountain of money they're sitting on to push an open standard, and at the very least reduce the necessity of the beast that is Flash?

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      The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. - Albert Einstein
  5. Apple's just pushing existing standards by Oceanplexian · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Apple tends to take standards that are in their infancy, and make them mainstream.

    I don't see anything wrong with this, other than it making other browsers like FF3 look like they haven't been innovating.

  6. Exactly by copponex · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The hypocrisy can be summed up on that single page:

    Apple CEO Steve Jobs explains why iPhone, iPod touch, and iPad do not support Flash and why open standards are the future of the web.

    This demo was designed with the latest web standards supported by Safari. If you’d like to experience this demo, simply download Safari.

    The next keynote should just have two massive murals of Stalin flanking the podium while Big Brother Steve tells you what you'll be allowed to do with your own equipment. And when he announces that they are no longer preventing you from running certain applications, that will become a feature. I guess he did learn a thing or two from Mr. Gates.

  7. How dare Apple advertise their own products! by itsdapead · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Shock! horror! Apple are using their own website to push Safari and claim that their own browsers are ahead of the game on standards support? The bastards!!!

    In large friendly letters on the page in question (my emphasis):

    The demos below show how the latest version of Apple’s Safari web browser, new Macs, and new Apple mobile devices all support the capabilities of HTML5, CSS3, and JavaScript. Not all browsers offer this support. But soon other modern browsers will take advantage of these same web standards — and the amazing things they enable web designers to do.

    Note how that doesn't say "Here's a handy resource to allow you to objectively compare different browsers' HTML 5 implementations"? That is because you are looking at an advert for Safari! As is traditional in these "adverts" it is trying to get you to download and try Safari, not find out how close the competition comes. In other news, if you go to a Mercedes dealership they're not going to offer you test drives in a BMW...

    Wake me up if anybody smart enough to spoof their browser ID finds out whether Apple's demos use undocumented or non-standard features (rather than ones which don't work in Firefox, yet).

    --
    In a survey of 100 programmers, 111111 thought that duck-typing was a good idea.
  8. Re:Selling mine by jo_ham · · Score: 4, Interesting

    That's not DRM.

    The device is vertically integrated, and tied to iTunes, but DRM is a very specific term that relates to the "protection" of media content.

    But it's ok, because copyright infringement is the same as piracy right? It's ok to play fast and loose with the definitions when it suits you.

  9. Re:Missing the point by mischi_amnesiac · · Score: 5, Interesting

    http://i.imgur.com/cT08B.png Well, seems like Chrome is more compatible with HTML5 than Safari is, so why limit the demo to Safari only?

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    "Die endgueltige Teilung Deutschlands - das ist unser Auftrag." - Chlodwig Poth
  10. Ok, you nerds need to get a clue. by aristotle-dude · · Score: 5, Insightful
    This is a technology showcase by "Apple" for developers targeting the iPhone OS which uses "safari". They added in the user agent sniffing code so that average Apple users stumbling upon the story would not be able to try the demos with an old build of Chrome which did not support everything or other browsers which supported none of it (IE, older builds of Firefox).

    This was the executive summary for general public consumption.

    If you wanted to look at the demos on other browsers, all you had to do was go to the http;//developer.apple.com/safaridemos/ link. Again, not everything will work on non-safari browers but most of them will work on the latest chrome.

    This is all about presenting the technology to the average user in the best light when other browsers are still playing catchup.

    --
    Jesus was a compassionate social conservative who called individuals to sin no more.
  11. Re:Developer Link by aitan · · Score: 5, Informative

    If you bother to follow the link and click on any of the demos, you'll see that it opens a page with a description, and when you click the "view demo" button, you get the SAME message stating that you need Safari to view some HTML5 demos.

  12. Re:Developer Link by perryizgr8 · · Score: 4, Informative

    http://developer.apple.com/safaridemos/ doesn't work, too. shows the same "you have to get safari". atleast you could have opened the link in firefox before posting.

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    Wealth is the gift that keeps on giving.
  13. Re:Developer Link by bennomatic · · Score: 4, Insightful
    I see your point, but I think they could have done it better. The warning coud have said...
    • You're not using Safari; do you want to download it?
    • Some of the features being shown off here aren't yet implemented on other browsers, hence this warning. Do you want to go on anyway? [link to go on]

    Beyond that, of course, I've seen it mentioned that it's disingenuous to talk about standards while using webkit-specific tags. While I'm a happy user of many Apple products, I agree with this statement; if Apple are going to make webkit-specific tags, they should have full feature compatibility with their standarized equivalents.

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