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Alleged Russian Spy Ring Exposed In US
Several readers sent in the story of an alleged Russian spy ring busted yesterday by the FBI after a decade-long investigation. The FBI says that Moscow trained and planted long-term "moles" in the US in order to infiltrate the upper echelons of US government and business circles and pass back intelligence to the Russians. Twelve people have been charged; ten were arrested in the US (one is at large) and one in Cyprus. Wired and the New York Post have colorful coverage. Wired's leans on the tradecraft and discusses steganography, while the Post favors the femme fatale angle (alleged spy Anna Chapman). The Russian Foreign Ministry said that the US actions were unfounded and pursued "unseemly" goals. One of many choice quotes from copious coverage: "They couldn't have been spies. Look what she did with the hydrangeas." From the WSJ report: "Officials said no secrets were compromised or revealed in the alleged plot, and the spy operation seems to have yielded little of value given some of the elaborate methods deployed. None of the 11 charged by US prosecutors was accused of accessing any classified or sensitive US government information."
SPY redefined to mean a hot woman? 3
that this is real and not some kind of stunt to promote a certain crystalline-flavoring movie?
I would expect that we get some wonderful counterespionage out of Russia itself nowadays.
It seems pretty wasteful for Russia to spend so much money on such an elaborate operation when it could be destroyed by one disaffected Russian official who dreams of a CIA payoff.
Madness!
The cold war ended!
That Spy's a Heavy!
If they didn't 'see/steal/copy' anything, was anything actually spied upon?
The mens rea was the attempt, but if there is no actus rea did they really break the law?
"The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." ~Plato (427-347 BC)
"Officials said no secrets were compromised or revealed in the alleged plot, and the spy operation seems to have yielded little of value given some of the elaborate methods deployed. None of the 11 charged by US prosecutors was accused of accessing any classified or sensitive US government information."
This is typical of Russian intelligence activity. The book The Sword and the Shield: Mitrokhin Archive details most of the Soviet operations up until the mid 80s. This sounds like more of the same techniques: Attempting to attract young, impressionable, college-educated people to their cause and then trying to guide them into positions where they can gain intel. Unfortunately, the Russians still do not really understand american culture and so they find it difficult to penetrate deeply into any establishment domestically.
Historically, their most successful intelligence gathering operations were either through signals intelligence or from defectors who wanted monentary compensation. Their recruiting efforts have been laughably under-planned. This is just another example. Their resources would be better spent in open source intelligence to identify vulnerable individuals who could be blackmailed than attempting to sway them on idealistic grounds. Communism just isn't that sexy. Sadly for them, I don't think they have the resources anymore to do much more than the French -- industrial espionage is as far as they get too. But at least the French make money on their intelligence operations...
#fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
I love how when they don't declare themselves it's "spying" but when they do it's simply "lobbying." Brilliant!
Shocking! you mean countries spy on each other in this day and age? Expect Russia to expel a few US "aides to diplomats", US to make lots of unhappy noises, and the whole thing to die down again. Heads of respective intelligence agencies nod at each other at the next major summit and agree to go back to business as normal.
I can imagine a phone has gone off in Moscow: "hi Ivan, it's Bob here from Washington. Sorry about that, the new president needed to see a bit of action. You expel a few of our small guys, our newspapers will make some noise, and all will be back to normal. See you down the club next time you're in town."
All very John Le Carre I am sure.
The masterminds of the ring, Boris Badenov, Natasha Fatale, and Fearless Leader, are still at large.
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
Make that 10 bullets, I'll take care of Anna, she's been very naughty.
New job posting! Live in the USA. Get an absurdly high salary. Hobnob with politicians. Raise hydrangeas. Provide nearly useless tidbits of information. Pick your job title from the following list:
1) Journalist
2) Spy
3) Lobbyist
4) Politician running for office
5) Lawyer
6) Wealthy old money parasite
7) Failed CEO of HP/Compaq, Microsoft, Enron or any Hedge fund.
8) Oprah (or generic talk show host)
Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
You have to admit ./ lags at least a few days behind on spy-related stories. Oh, unless these are lated to WoW and nethack, of course...
This is just to get free press for a new movie.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
I'm not convinced that these "spies" were doing anything all that sinister.
Without any actual knowledge of US operations, I can assure you that we have spies like these in Russia, Britain, Australia, Every Country of the EU, and Every Country of the Mid-East.
Where do you think the information in the "CIA World Factbook" comes from?
Any slashdotters in the upper echelons of our more secretive government agencies care to fill us in?
Okay, raise your hands, how many people got to the bit about "while the Post favors the femme fatale angle (alleged spy Anna Chapman)" and immediately stopped to go do some google searches on this spy in particular?
This Space Intentionally Left Blank
The FSU is flooded with the US spies. All these NGOs, Peace Corps, Human Rights Groups, etc. But they will not be expeled as they pay people good salaries and hardly do any damage.
Much worse is when people are without jobs and without an income. Such people are even more dangerous.
Now when a lot of people in the USA are without jobs does it make sense to take away this too? Production moved overseas, so what people have to do?
If anyone is interested in a picture of the (totally unrelated) said hydrangeas, I believe these are the ones. I guess the lawn could have used a bit more care, though
Qxe4
Normally western counterespionage groups are very reluctant to charge anyone because the trials will leak their methods to their adversaries.
So the FBI would only bring charges this fluffy for some other reason. What are we being distracted from?
Does anybody RTFA these days?
Part about Anna Chapman claims her drop was over line-of-sight laptop contact.
All this by person with her own online real-estate bussiness...
Of course it's bought wholesale.... By willing public.
http://opencm3.net, http://www.nongnu.org/gm2/
In Soviet Russia they are using line-of-sight encryption only.
http://opencm3.net, http://www.nongnu.org/gm2/
During the Cold War, some spies were being tossed. A reporter asked "What is your name?"
"No name ... just KGB number."
Espionage has fallen on hard times, they are on their last Oleg.
Officials said no secrets were compromised or revealed in the alleged plot, and the spy operation seems to have yielded little of value given some of the elaborate methods deployed.
But, they could have relayed important statistics gleaned from the "Daily Kos"!
Who would win this election: Andrew Weiner vs Andrew Weiner's weiner.
Torture will yield the quickest answer to make the pain stop, not the truth. Threat of murder means no one talks because, well, even if they do talk they will die. Every human being, spy, terrorist, murderer and rapist alike, deserves a trial. There is always a chance that the authorities are wrong, and without trials the Gov can execute anyone on the grounds that they may be (spy|terrorist|etc).
Sadly, 99% of America would probably still agree with you.
"Officials said no secrets were compromised or revealed in the alleged plot."
Set your phasers on "funky"!
Just because it's not secret doesn't mean it's not valuable and just because it's not valuable doesn't mean it's not secret.
Spy ring busts you!
Holy hell, I think we got a true 'soviet russia' this time!
"Quote me as saying I was mis-quoted." -Groucho Marx
Too good looking and too smart.
Any woman who looks like that and who has a masters degree in economics is almost certainly a spy. No ordinary woman looks that good and is that smart.
T: Tell us X
V: I don't know X
*ZAP*
T: Tell us X
V: I don't know X
*ZAP* *ZAP*
T: Tell us X
V: I don't know X
*ZAP* *ZAP* *ZAP*
T: Tell us X ::lies about X to get the torture to stop::
V:
T: O.k., we'll be back in a few days. If you are telling the truth, we'll set you free. If you are not, the torture continues.
Repeat until
a. V is dead.
b. V gives credible information
THe spies were Allegedly Russian?
Well, I see that the ruskies remain low on the list of threats to due process of law...
The FSU is flooded with the US spies. All these NGOs, Peace Corps, Human Rights Groups, etc. But they will not be expeled as they pay people good salaries and hardly do any damage.
Much worse is when people are without jobs and without an income. Such people are even more dangerous.
Now when a lot of people in the USA are without jobs does it make sense to take away this too? Production moved overseas, so what people have to do?
Huh? LOL your post made no sense.
Don't feed the trolls, I know.
But...
What your scenario doesn't take into account is V may not actually know anything and is telling the truth regarding X in this context. Now you have a completely innocent person who is dead on your hands, you murderer.
Possible problem identified: V doesn't know about X since his/her organization is highly compartmentalized and V only knows about his/her little part of the organization.
Second possible problem: Torture has been anticipated and V has a "cover story" for such an occasion (perhaps a clever lie about X which makes sense and which when investigated by T will seem like it's true).
Third possible problem: Torture has been anticipated and V has been trained not to give up information.
Fourth possible problem: Torture and murder of operatives by T's organization is well-known by V's organization and every operative in V's organization has been trained to commit suicide to avoid capture.
But hey, "Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out" is a lot more fun, right?
Greylisting is to SMTP as NAT is to IPv4
... : O.k., we'll be back in a few days. If you are telling the truth, we'll set you free. If you are not, the torture continues. ...
Repeat until
a. V is dead.
b. V gives credible information
On problem, torture isn't conducive to rational decision making. You want the torture to stop NOW, and you also probably would find an immediate (if temporary) break to be just as good as a permanent one. Also if the country who has you is of the torturing type, I doubt you trust them to actually set you free, since no country with torture really has much honor.
A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
Sadly, 99% of America would probably still agree with you.
What sort of country is this?
to infiltrate the upper echelons of US government and business circles and pass back intelligence to the Russians
If they're looking for intelligence, the past couple of decades of US government and business decisions should be enough to convince anyone with a few ounces of brain that that's not the place to look for it.
Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
Same way as it is illegal to try and murder someone, but fail. It isn't the same crime, or the same punishment, but it is still illegal.
So actually giving classified secrets to a foreign power is a very serious crime. It is the kind of thing that can earn life in prison, or even death if it is done during war time. Working as an agent for a foreign government and trying to get classified data is also illegal, though less so.
I find it interesting that the woman has the same last name as a famous British spy, Eddie Chapman.
Repeat until
a. V is dead.
b. V gives credible information
Either V dies (most likely) or V makes a lucky guess (it can happen - during questioning, an innocent person may pick up enough clues, along with what they have seen but didn't recognize as suspicious before, to figure things out.)
So if V lives, he or she "MUST have been guilty" even though they weren't.
they have a stupid angelina jolie spy theme movie coming out, where she is a russian spy deep under cover in the usa:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_(film)
with the recent bombing of tom cruise and cameron diaz's knight and day
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knight_and_Day#Critical_response
hollywood is worried about how another star vehicle film will perform at the box office
so they pull a few strings, make a few calls, and create anticipatory buzz in the press and the public by forcing the cia to prematurely close its multiyear investigation of russian spies at work in the usa
now that's power
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Ok, here's the things about "enemy combatants" in several forms, from Taliban militants to German soldiers. When you capture someone on the field of war, you hold them until the war is over. You don't try them for "conspiracy to kill Americans," "conspiracy to commit terrorism," or any of that other bullshit. Why? Because killing opponents on the battle field isn't a crime. Conducting military operations isn't a crime. It's not even any more morally wrong than war is in general, because that's what war is. Thus, I am not for trying taliban militants, al qaeda operatives, or anyone else we capture in Afghanistan or Iraq. Hold them until the war is over. The only problem is, the "war on terrorism" will never be over. However, when we are done fighting in Iraq, everyone captured in Iraq should be released, and when we're done fighting in Afghanistan, then everyone captured in Afghanistan should be released.
Anecdote: in the mid 1960s, my mom's parents decided to have some work done to their house, including re-doing the chimney and fireplace. The man hired to do the job was a German immigrant. He and my grandfather got to talking and discovered they had been in the same battle, on the same day, during WWII, but on opposing sides. They ended up going through a couple of bottles of scotch and crying together for a few hours. I know it's a cliche that young soldiers who come face to face with the enemy always think how 'in another life, they could have been friends,' but in this case an American and a German who had been trying to kill each other a few years earlier in part of the Ardens offensive really did come together. I have a number of friends from Palestine, Syria, Lebanon, and other countries in the area. They're all perfectly fine people, and it really bothers me when people who can't even pronounce "terrorist" accuse all middle-easterners and/or Muslims of being one.
Back on topic, the Russians aren't even being charged with espionage, but with acting as agents of a foreign government without proper registration. This is a normal, criminal matter that NGO-types can often run afoul of if they don't fill out the proper documents. I wouldn't be surprised if it ended up getting worked out by the State department. But these 10 people are hardly Julius and Ethel Rosenberg.
Who needs spies anymore when you have google.
Finally the story is up on slashdot. Btw, I wonder how much more the Salt film is going to make, after hearing about all this spy news i'm psyched to go see a spy movie!
Why the FBI chose to arrest them now is the mystery because the FBI knew for over a decade.
Part of the spy game is not letting on that you know what is going on. By letting them conduct operations in against non-critical assets, you get to see how they operate, who they work with, and who they answer to. You can unravel their network to watch and catch other agents. You can set them up to pass false information. You can collect vast amounts of incriminating evidence to use to force them to become double agents. You can find out what they think you are doing and what they are worried about, and use that to play on their fears.
HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
The prisoners taken in the "War on Terrorism" must be given due process because they are human beings. I don't even care if they are citizens or not... inalienable rights are inalienable. Period.
Also, we are definitely not at war with Russia, so these people, as per your definition, deserve a trial.
http://www.chuckonline.net/
Your'e all thinking it, I just said it for you
You and many others make the mistake that the damage is not limited to one individual that is killed or mentally/physically injured.
Torture also destroys cooperation with allies. US tortured in Iraq. Thousands of people are mentally and physically damaged. But many Iraqis that might have become allies and help the US build up the country were driven away. "Taxi to the Dark Side" is a good documentation about this.
Making friends is far more effective in getting information, and torture has been shown numerous times to be inefficient. To put it in Picards words, one wonders why it is still practiced. To put it in Sun Tzu's words, use the "land".
NB: The message above might reflect my opinion right now, but not necessarily tomorrow or next year.
I smell weapons of mass distraction!
When you capture someone on the field of war, you hold them until the war is over [snip] when we're done fighting in Afghanistan, then everyone captured in Afghanistan should be released
Where this falls down is when the 'home country' doesn't want them back. When WW2 ended and the US released the German and Italian POWs, they went back home to Germany and Italy and wherever. Problem with the "War on Terrorism" "soldiers" is they're stateless. Afghanistan doesn't want them, Pakistan doesn't want them. This is one of the many problems Obama is having with his plan to close Guantanamo - There's nowhere to send the released combatants.
You've got to be kidding me. Haven't these folks heard of PGP? Or are they just determined to act out a bad spy novel?
Repeat until
a. V is dead.
b. V gives credible information
Ah, but the key word there is "credible".
See, in the real world, it is extremely rare that the information you are trying to obtain is something concrete and easily verifiable. Usually it's just pieces and clues that can take months to follow up on and even then it won't be clear if the info was wrong or just stale.
Like this case. Okay, you torture the "alleged" spies to find out who their handlers were, and what information they transfered. They say they don't know what you're talking about at first, then they give you names. Maybe different ones. Lies, or did they each have different handlers? Even if they were telling the truth those names could be aliases, so how do you expect to track them down in a foreign country? In a couple days? Ha! Months or years if you're lucky! No, the problem is that you can't just fact-check every statement they make and know for sure if they're lying.
So instead, the interrogator has to decide what sounds "credible", which is where their own biases come in, which is why -- as the army manual itself says -- the best thing torture is good for is for getting the suspect to say what you want to hear. Torture is great for getting confessions. Actionable intel? Not so much.
But hey, it works for Jack Bauer, and that's all some people need.
The enemies of Democracy are
Plus if "V" makes that lucky guess on one question, all the other BS is presumed to be at least a little believable. V tells you the name of a contact, "it must also be the truth", so even when you check out that guy and it just isn't possible, you're never completely sure he's clean. maybe you should torture him too, only what if that's what the Ruskies want?
V says the Ruskies are spending millions on psychic research, now you gotta spend tens of millions on trying to find loyal Americans who can kill goats with their minds too. V says that South American politician who died of an apparent heart attack a few years ago was actually a test of a new, untraceable poison, sorry he doesn't remember the guy's name or just when, you gotta fund a chemical research program or something.
Who is John Cabal?
Have you ever:
- tasted more than one sausage at the sample counter, but didn't buy any?
- sampled a grape at the supermarket?
- picked up a penny at the fountain?
- walked out of a coffee shop with a newspaper that you weren't sure was free?
- accidentally kept something in your shopping cart, but didn't bother to return it?
- borrowed the fire ax from downtown to chop down a tree in your yard?
- kept shopping carts in your garage?
- got a refund for your doctor's co-pay via medical supplies?
- wrote a check to the church for $10, and helped yourself to $9 in change from the collection plate?
- leafed through someone else's medical records at the hospital?
- decorated your college dorm room with a traffic sign?
- stowed extra rolls of toilet paper into your backpack?
- palmed the salt & pepper shakers at the restaurant?
- re-purposed the movie theater exit sign into a night light for your room?
- made off with the weights from the gym?
- packed the hotel towels?
- reached down for a box of candy, out of sight from the cashier?
- lifted a jacket off of a sleeping person in the library, because it looked so heavy on their back?
- rummaged through a stranger's purse?
- helped yourself to the donation can for cancer kids, so you can buy some nyquil?
- sampled girl scout cookies, while pocketing the money can?
- liberated a bird from the pet shop?
- packed a stranger's puppy into your gym bag?
- decided your in-law's jewelry looks better on your fingers?
- filled your tank with somebody else's credit card, while they went inside?
- scolded a kid at the park that they shouldn't own a cell phone, so you taught them a lesson?
- told a skateboarder you'll show them a really cool trick, and rode away?
- decided to help the local construction site by steering their crane on sunday?
- helped the local fire department by driving their truck somewhere else?
- helped your new neighbor by making their moving truck disappear?
- made off with the manhole lid, and watched cars get destroyed?
I am guessing that the untold story behind the here is that the FBI tried to insert itself in some manner into the ring (for example, posing as contacts), but someone in the ring became suspicious. In which case the FBI may have screwed up - a much much better outcome would be to have the ring continue under surveillance. So why did the FBI attempt this? Apart from the possibility of providing misleading information to the SVR, another useful possibility is to find out the SVR thought about certain individuals (i.e. are they 'clean').
Some forces in the US don't want good relations with Russia. Thats all. Russians has many clever hackers so there's no need to send them to US, to get the secrets in many cases. And the second, nowadays spies use far more clever techniques as the officials talking about. It's as hollow as B quality hollywood movie.
Knowing Russians they'll probably arrest some American citizens working in Russia on made up bullshit charges to retaliate. Real spy or not, doesn't matter. They need to get even any way possible.
First, kudos to all the intel agencies who worked on this but let the FBI take the credit. Second, kudos to the FBI for taking sole credit in a business where taking credit can lead to personal problems of a fatal nature. ALL that has to be charged is anything that holds them, incommunicado, for an indefinite time. The ICE connection alone can hold them at least 27 months before a hearing which will be "in camera". Sometimes we do trade "tit for tat" but having no "tat" because we use other methods, these 10-11 or more can count on never going back to Mother Russia. And you're reading just the "tip of the iceberg".
Yes, these people deserve a trial and I said as much. But there shouldn't be "due process" beyond "sit your ass here until the war is over" for people we scoop up on the battle field.
The Taliban were the legal government of Afghanistan, and were recognized by other countries as so. Saddam Hussein's Baath party was the legal, recognized government of Iraq. Just because we changed the government to one that doesn't want to own up doesn't change anything. Karzai's govt in Afghanistan is trying to do some reconciliation with the Taliban there precisely because most of the Taliban in Afghanistan were Afghans.
From what I've read, when you torture someone, you never ask questions...at first. You simply torture them to the point they release a stream of consciousness. At this moment, they will be in total fear of their lives and in a complete mode of panic. You generally don't let the individual being tortured know what information you're actually looking for until much later. That way, you can spot deviations in his/her story. Basically, torture is a tool to methodically extract truthful information. But extracting information is as much of an art as it is a science. Not always successful even with a professional leading the "procedure".
Life is not for the lazy.
So what do you do? Fly the prisoners to Afghanistan or Pakistan or Saudi Arabia and then kick them out of the plane onto the tarmac, then fly off? How exactly do you repatriate them when the governments say "don't bring them back"?
It's all a conspiracy theory.
I say we release them back to Russia, but for another reason entirely. I mean, the damage has already been done. So by releasing them, we have established a political upper hand over Russia. It's our ace up the sleeve when it comes to other negotiations in the future. Such a concession is politically worth far more than making a circus out of this event. Lets use it to our advantage this time!
Life is not for the lazy.
Counter-anecdote: my grandfather fought in the Russian revolution when he was 18 years old. A short while before he died of alcoholism in 1963 he told my mother he could never forget how he had to shoot a communist fighter who used a small boy as a human shield.
Moral of the story: soldiers are like anybody else, there's good and bad. Not every Russian was a communist, not every German was a nazi, and not every Palestinian is a terrorist. But, until Russians started fighting communism and until Palestinians start fighting terrorism, how can we know which is which?
The Russian Foreign Ministry said that the US actions were unfounded and pursued "unseemly" goals.
Why would the Foreign Ministry say anything of the sort? That seems almost an admission. Even if the Foreign Ministry only agrees that these individuals are Russian citizens using false identities, even that would be imprudent. Why say anything at all? Why not wait for it to blow over (we Americans are a bit fickle with our news), then negotiate their repatriation later? This doesn't sound like your grandfather's Russia...
- T
I understand your point. If the people are poor, they are much more likely to give up information.
However, ngo's, peace corp, and other humanitarian groups are not filled with spies.
What's FSU by the way? It is hard to search for, all I get are hits about Florida State University heh.
"I have your mother on the phone. I am ordering you to tell her who you are. Good. Now you cannot be blackmailed."
"Did you ever commit an act of espionage against the United States?"
Either, they answered yes and the interrogator thought it was a joke or ... they are double agents.
To hell with the commie russians !! NUKE 'EM !! NUKE 'EM NOW !! Then we'll talk ARMS reduction, not a day sooner !!
You hold a simplistic view of "answer".
You know Person A knows Information B due to another source/method.
You aren't sure how important information B is. To what extent Person A lies about Information B while being tortured may give you a clue as to how important Person A thinks Information B is. This is just one example. Torture a lot of people and patterns will start to emerge...like metadata.
There are lots of puzzle pieces you can get from torture, very rarely will the question be as simple as "where is the hidden rebel base".
I hold the view that torture CAN work, but we can win without it. Basing your don't-torture argument on "torture doesn't work" is wrong... and worse it cheapens the argument.
Now you will point out that some experts say it never works.... And I will point out they are full of shit.
THL phish sticks
Oh ffs, torturing each cell can help you map out how compartmentalized your enemy cells are.
THL phish sticks
Ok, so when an entire Nazi battalion got taken prisoner, we should have shipped every last soldier to the US for a trial?
I have a little rule: I don't ask soldiers how to setup my SQL database, and I don't ask douche-bag geeks how to fight a war.
THL phish sticks
One that succumbs to fear and paranoia all too easily these days, I'm sad to say.
Random Thoughts From A Diseased Mind (Not For Dummies)
They should have left these ineffective "spies" in place - now they may be replaced with competent ones.
0021 0005 0019 0000 0028 0100 0031 0027 0000 0024
Enjoy!
If any of the details come out and are sufficiently interesting, I'll end up reading about it at Bruce Schneier's blog ---- but what I find interesting now is, for example, whether (Anna) Leddra Chapman's music career will be given a significant push forward just because people searching for info about the alleged spy will find her instead/in addition.
This kind of strange interaction is something which couldn't have happened, for example, when I was younger (yes, I am that old...).
The spies are the people going about their business trying to advance in their careers.
+5 well done.
Operator, give me the number for 911!
The FBI has been 'monitoring' their activities for a decade? That seems a bit unreasonable, seeing as how they are 'spies' and a decade's worth of intel should be pretty significant. Why not stop them early on? I heard an interesting bit on this via the BBC news podcast today, and it was actually pretty enlightening. Sociologically speaking, there was one instance where they interviewed neighbors who claimed their only offense is that they had 'loud dogs in the backyard'. I understand hiding in plain sight and everything, not being 'too quiet', etc, but just based upon some of the things i've heard it sounds like a farse. This is made up. It's an attempt to strike fear in American people in order to promote the ideal 'be good, or we'll find you'. A similar approach was taken during the times square bombing plot. They create a guy to catch, and by doing so, creates a sense of trust in the American public for their government. Read between the lines, friends. You're all intelligent people, why not question the WHY? Russia quite frankly was appalled by such an obvious trick, a 'Cold War' scare tactic. So why publicize it? It's meant to be information for you to think about, that's why. Please take what i've said with a grain of salt, like everything else you read on the internet, but at least question what you hear.
tl;dr - faked.
Can it be that the government is hiding political prosecution by labeling them 'spies'? That is what some have suggested: http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=93758
Former Soviet Union
Russia are trying to spy on the 11 Secret Herbs and Spices.
Let's say you know 10 facts in the interested domain. you put these 10 facts in a basket of 50 questions. if the suspect does not know what you know it is only combinatorics/probability to estimate the quality of the information. If you have no knowledge whatsoever what they are up to you probably should not start torturing people anyway.
Besides, what about a "less mean" form of torture? Truth serum is still a form of violence and unreliable (in the US, russkies seems to be way ahead) but at least one can keep the pretense of being the good guy.
Anyway I don't think the secret service is interested in obtaining information from these guys. The timing of the bust (just after the meeting between Americans and Russians) is suspect. The fact they have not busted them during an operation is suspect too: if they caught them with a fake passport at the airport, with a bag of money, with industrial secrets - then Russians couldn't whine about the arrest, a perfect victory.
And why bust them at all? Keeping an eye on them would have yielded good information (insight into the russian strategy and the more trivial details like communication techniques), or would have made it possible to foil a plan once the ring gets really important. Now the russians will have to start from scratch with another ring of illegals: it'll cost them some effort but it will cost the USA much more effort to discover it. A net negative.
So my 2c is that the relations between USA and Russia were the real target of the bust.
---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
These questions should have been asked in the beginning of the war not after. What were US plans on handling prisoners of war (or enemy combatants)? What is the final objective of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq? What are the war ending criteria? How to exit the war, what sort of rebuilding is necessary?
Of course I don't have an answer to those, but I would expect any nation that starts a war will have asked and answered to them with backup plans. Especially telling is the Soviet wars in Afghanistan, there was early warnings about not being able to finish off the war with clean victory.
Boy, it's funny the professionals still use it. They should have consulted with you first. Torture, both physical and psychological, can break someone to the point they will in fact spill the beans. The pros know which type (physical or psychological) to use on whom, and how to tell when they're broken or merely saying stuff to end the pain. Maybe it's not humane, and maybe it's not legal everywhere, but that's an entirely different argument from saying it's completely useless.
Tic-Tac-Toe, Global Thermonuclear War, and relationships all have the same winning move.
usually a deal is done with a small nation to expatriot the prisoners to. Palau (link to guardian article) was trying to deal with the US to take 17 of the prisoners in return for quite large infrastructure grants ($200m).
You would think that someone would be smart enough to get the FBI to set them up as a mole,
to then go and infiltrate the Russians, and become a mole to be sent into the FBI,
with enough of these, the Russians could pay for the whole FBI payroll...
and we could pass them data that is not too important but important enough
to make it look like we are working......worth a try! lol
From TFA (Wired):
And it’s one of a slew of high-tech and time-tested methods that the deep-cover agents and their Russian handlers used to pass information — from private Wi-Fi networks to buried paper bags.
Private Wi-Fi networks? OH NO... we'll have to ban those immediately...
"Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet." General James Mattis
It IS systemic: your system encourages this. It encourages "what money and power can I get from my job" and ignores the "what should I do for my fellow man". therefore the epic failures of the bribed CIA leaks IS a systemic problem: your capitalist system encourages such behaviour and it IS your system.
FTA:
There, they found a set of password-protected disks and a piece of paper, marked with “alt,” “control,” “e,” and a string of 27 characters.
With all the steganography and hidden messages, you'd think it prudent not to write passwords on little notes, and keep the along with your disks.
I have a little rule: I don't ask soldiers how to setup my SQL database, and I don't ask douche-bag geeks how to fight a war.
Since when do the soldiers get a say in how the war is fought? Pentagon bureaucrats do that, at least in the USA. Unless you're insinuating that there's no such thing as a douchebag in the Pentagon. But that strains the imagination...
These questions should have been asked in the beginning of the war not after. What were US plans on handling prisoners of war (or enemy combatants)? What is the final objective of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq? What are the war ending criteria? How to exit the war, what sort of rebuilding is necessary?
Reminds me of teenage sex, actually.
"How am I supposed to find a job and support a wife and baby??"
"Tough cookies, son, you should have thought of that before the clothes came off..."
Responsibility for one's decisions and all that.
Lawful enemy combattants need to meet a number of criteria if they are in fact to be deemed lawful and therefore under the protection of
the various conventions governing civilized warfare. The opponents of the US and its allies in the current global conflict by and large do not
meet the criteria. They are therefore unlawful combattants and in many cases guilty of actual warcrimes(*). The US and allies are therefore
entitled to treat most of the AQ, Taliban, etc. they capture as criminals rather than POW. And that does not by the way buy the clownshoe
illegals a trip to a civilian courtroom. In an ideal world they would go before a military commission and if convicted to the firing squad or
such lesser punishment as determined by the military commission.
(* Taking of hostages for one. Which by the way they are then responsible for not the US and allied forces the hostages are used as human
shields against )
The Palestinians *are* fighting terrorism ...
Yeah, when I hear somebody say "torture", my mind immediately goes to medieval stuff like pulling fingernails, thumbscrews, the rack... so when I first heard that US troops were "torturing" POWs in Guantanamo, I thought, "This is terrible! America doesn't do that sort of thing! We're better than that!"
So a few weeks later, the details started to emerge - the first "torture" I heard that they had applied was... flushing pages of the Koran down the toilet.
Seriously? Maybe we need to clarify terminology here a bit.
Proud neuron in the Slashdot hivemind since 2002.
There's two types of prisoners.
One is the person we find shooting at us on the battlefield, or part of a uniformed military force we scoop up. (Note that a civilian shooting at our soldiers falls in this category, if his or her army hasn't shown up yet.) These people are shipped somewhere where we can keep them from escaping and treated decently. When the war is over, we repatriate them.
The other is the person we find performing illegal acts. Those we should try in a fair court, and punish appropriately.
There are overlaps: an enemy combatant might have performed a war crime we've got evidence of, for example. However, either we hold them until the end of hostilities in good condition, or we try them, or both. We should punish nobody without a trial.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
"Torture will yield the quickest answer to make the pain stop, not the truth."
If the pain stops, IT'S NOT TORTURE.
And, part of the art of torture is sorting through the answers.
D-fucking-UH!
Where did all of you idiot wimps come from? You who cannot think to Step 2 of torture, or even imagine what real torture is.
I suggest you read some autobiographies of POWs. Try to work outside your little comfort sphere of formulaic TV torture from "Burn Notice" and "24."
Really, for all we know, these are just decoy spies. Though, it's got to be difficult hiding spies in the age of inter-related databases and huge government powers.
In an ideal world Bush wouldn't have wrecked the credibility of our tribunals with gitmo and his "We're going to lock them up forever and not even tell them why (habeas corpus)" attitude.
You're confusing war with terrorism.
Did the Nazi battalion wear uniforms and fight conventionally? Then they were soldiers, and treated like prisoners of war when captured. They were the enemy, but not guilty of a crime just for being in the army. If they committed illegal acts (like intentionally killing civilians, a la terrorism), then yes, they should be tried.
The enemy in the War on Terror is....terrorists. Terrorists get tried for their (illegal) acts of terrorism. The War on Terror could last as long as the government wants it to; you can't imprison people forever.
I would expect any nation that starts a war will have asked and answered to them with backup plans
Well, yes and no. If North Korea were to lob missiles at Seattle and Portland tomorrow (yeah, yeah, unlikely, I know, it's just an example) then the USA would likely immediately (re)declare war on North Korea and begin whoopin' some commie ass. It's unlikely there'd be a period of analysis asking and answering these questions and generating backup plans.
nuh uh.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil_empire_(disambiguation) ; ).
"Kill 'em all and let Root sort 'em out"
The evidence suggests that torture works quite well. See regimes such as Nazi Germany, Soviet Union, Saddam's Iraq, etc, where the ruling party remains in power until either an outside force overthrows them or they give up.
If you're picking up random people off of the street to torture, then of course you're going to get whatever nonsense information they think will stop the pain. But if it's part of an actual investigation of a enemy group that actually exists, then you can follow up on information, come back to the people who gave it to you, screen out bad information, etc, until you get to the bottom of what's going on. Not to mention the question of how many people are actually capable of coming up with clever lies when they're in horrible pain with no end in sight and they know that the people asking the questions can find out if it's nonsense.
Of course, that's not to say that it's necessarily okay or the best solution to any particular problem. Obviously, there are a lot of moral and practical considerations to what you actually to do members of an enemy organization that you manage to get your hands on - overly harsh treatment may cause potential allies to turn away from you, cause neutral parties to take up active opposition to you, etc. But the idea that torture doesn't work is just total nonsense.
I don't reply to ACs
I would be surprised if US military didn't play war games where North Korea launches missiles at US or South Korean targets. The job of military is to prepare for these kinds of things not just pull the trigger.
Of course unknown enemy is harder to respond to, but even the current Iraq and Afghan wars were well prepared after the 9/11. There was no reason not to plan for different outcomes.
While poor saps are paraded in front of TV cameras KGB in Moscow are taking out CIA double agents.
It's a duck!
Linux, you magnificent bastard, I read the fucking manual!