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Murdoch's UK Paywall a Miserable Failure

David Gerard writes "As part of his war against free, Rupert Murdoch put the Times and Sunday Times of London behind a paywall. Michael Wolff of Newser asks how that's working out for him. You can guess: miserable failure: 'Not only is nobody subscribing to the website, but subscribers to the paper itself — who have free access to the site — are not going beyond the registration page. It's an empty world.' Not that this wasn't entirely predictable." Update: 07/17 01:41 GMT by T : Frequent contributor Peter Wayner writes skeptically that the Newsday numbers should be looked at with a grain of salt: "I believe they were charging $30/month for the electronic edition and $25/month for the dead tree edition which also offered free access to the electronic edition. In essence, you had to pay an extra $5 to avoid getting your lawn littered with paper. The dead tree edition gets much better ad rates and so it is worth pushing. It's a mistake to see the raw numbers and assume that the paywall failed."

428 comments

  1. LOL! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

    Hahahahahahahahahahahaha! Hahahaha! Hahahahaha! LOL!

    1. Re:LOL! by JustinRLynn · · Score: 5, Funny

      [Nelson Muntz]

    2. Re:LOL! by NikolaiKutuzov · · Score: 1

      Not Yurek Rutz?

      --
      Invita Invidia
    3. Re:LOL! by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      That should be trololo ....
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwGFalTRHDA

  2. Duh... by guruevi · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This experiment has been tried over the last few decades (ever since the papers discovered the commercial Internet) and has failed miserably every time. Some magazines/papers even closed their doors after they tried it because they invested too much money in something that had 0 return on investment and alienated their existing audience that was actually paying their bills.

    --
    Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    1. Re:Duh... by AnonymousClown · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Not every time - The Wall Street Journal and the Financial Times & Economist (same company) are a couple that worked. I can't think of anymore that worked though. And it is interesting the subject matter of those three papers. There must be a couple of more exceptions.

      --
      RIP America

      July 4, 1776 - September 11, 2001

    2. Re:Duh... by sznupi · · Score: 1

      Interesting what kinds of people are receptive to efforts of maintaining crashing business models?

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    3. Re:Duh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I'll bet you remember every one of those decades of commercial Internet.
       
      No? Not even one? Yeah, I bet you wouldn't remember the one very clearly if you're young enough that you thought there had been more than that.

    4. Re:Duh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You could say the same thing about tablet computer failing over the past few years...and mp3s until Apple came into the scene (Rio player anyone?). I give Murdoch credit for trying when everyone else is going bankrupt, but the problem is that he didn't really change or add to the business plan of paywall - and not the fact that others have tried and failed paywall in the past.

    5. Re:Duh... by Eunuchswear · · Score: 3, Funny

      the Financial Times & Economist (same company)

      No, The FT (subsidiary of Pearson PLC) owns 50% of the Economist, not a controlling interest.

      --
      Watch this Heartland Institute video
    6. Re:Duh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The obvious reason why WSJ and FT succeeded is because they provide stock information which is a heavily regulated market that costs a *lot* to get into and to provide. Therefore there aren't any free alternatives (*) -- everyone who offers stock information charges for it, and the audience is used to this fact and accepts it.

      The brand recognition and virtual monopoly position enjoyed by these two papers would also have helped.

      (*) Yes, I know there are free stock listing all over the place, but you'll notice that all of them have a time delay of at least several hours. Real-time stock data is only available to those willing to pay for it.

    7. Re:Duh... by aCC · · Score: 5, Interesting

      For the Economist, I (as a subscriber) can tell you why it worked for their subscribers: they offer fantastic value. I sing the praise for the Economist whenever I can, because I think that they are one of the few companies that get it. With my paper subscription I get:
      1. Full access to the website including ALL past issues!
      2. The current issue as an audio podcast (800MB!).
      3. I can cancel my subscription whenever I want AND GET THE REMAINING MONEY BACK! (This is a big YES THEY GOT HOW TO TREAT THEIR CUSTOMERS.)
      4. If there are problems with deliveries (e.g. a UK postal strike), they switched to hand deliveries to make sure the subscribers got their issues.

      These are all added-value services that ensure I will subscribe to their magazine even though I manage to read it only occasional due to the volume of articles. Obviously, I also believe their articles are top-notch (they even get technology reasonably well).

      I am not affiliated with the Economist in any way. Just a very happy customer.

    8. Re:Duh... by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 2, Interesting

      A pretty sizable chunk of scientific and other academic journals have operated reasonably successful paywalls(though their cases probably differ a bit because their main market is University/Institutional libraries and negotiating site licenses with the same. Their paywalls don't actually need to rack up many, if any, individual subscribers, they just have to make the prospect of using the journal without an institutional subscription, or a compelling need, so ridiculous that the institution caves and buys a site license).

      On the other hand, they've drawn some fairly massive flack over the issue, so, if the open access guys get their way, it could end up costing them rather badly in the long run.

    9. Re:Duh... by cybaz · · Score: 1

      ESPN.com has an Insider section that you need to pay to access. It's been relatively successful, they claim to have 350,000 subscribers.

    10. Re:Duh... by Tridus · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Wow, yeah. That's a great example of customer service adding value to a product.

      It also helps that the Economist tends to have quality and unique content. It's something you can find from 5000 other sources at the same time, as opposed to your average newspaper.

      --
      -- "So they told me that using the download page to download something was not something they anticipated." - Bill Gates
    11. Re:Duh... by mcgrew · · Score: 5, Insightful

      ever since the papers discovered the commercial Internet

      Commercial internet... Commercial internet... Commercial internet... Jees I'm getting old. I miss the nineties and early zeros when the closest thing to a "commercial internet" was a web page with a single ad banner, which everyone bitched and moaned about to no avail. None of the sites I ran back then had any advertising at all; like most other folks' sites then, it was a labor of love.

      The damned greedheads seem to ruin everything. Thank god people aren't falling for Murdoch's nonsense (yet).

      Murdoch's terrible Faux News was on the TV in the bar last night and gees, if anyone would have talked about Bush when he was in office the way Murdoch's "news" station talks about Obama, Faux News and the neocons would have called them "traitors" and screamed bloody murder.

    12. Re:Duh... by Yvanhoe · · Score: 1

      Well, when it was worth trying to do that with a reputable newspaper like the Times. Here in France, the most popular newspaper (Le Monde) did the opposite : they gave their article for free on their website and while the website is popular, the newspaper is bankrupt and is being sold.

      I like Murdoch as much as the next geek, but news reporting is still in search for a business model on the web.

      --
      The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
    13. Re:Duh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I agree. My home newspaper, the StarTribune in Minneapolis, started printing AP feeds directly years ago. I assume most papers today also print stories from "the wire" without any editing whatsoever. As Tridus implies, why would I pay fr something I can find somewhere else, probably for free.

    14. Re:Duh... by Vintermann · · Score: 2, Informative

      They get technology reasonably well. They occasionally call out the occasional walking piece of corruption that other are resigned to (read: Silvio Berlusconi). But editorial-wise, they are very far right. They supported the iraq war, they believed in WMD, and they denied global warming for a very long time (until 2007?).

      --
      xkcd is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.
    15. Re:Duh... by sharky611aol.com · · Score: 1

      It probably helps that you get a subscription to ESPN The Magazine with a subscription to their Insider section (or vice versa). It all goes back to added value.

    16. Re:Duh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Not every time - The Wall Street Journal and the Financial Times & Economist (same company) are a couple that worked. I can't think of anymore that worked though. And it is interesting the subject matter of those three papers. There must be a couple of more exceptions.

      Financial papers can charge for access because they are a tool that people use to make more money (not to mention they can be written off as a business expense). When viewed that way, it makes perfect sense. Nearly all of the other papers out there are essentially just passive infotainment.

    17. Re:Duh... by TooMuchToDo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I'd have to say that the Economist is *far* more informational in value than the WSJ. When traveling, I almost always pick up a copy of the Economist from a newsstand to read on the plane (but would like/pay for an iPad version if they made it).

    18. Re:Duh... by Rogerborg · · Score: 1

      Not de jure, but come on, do you really think they can't rent one more voting share whenever they need an abstention? If I were Pearson PLC, I'd treat the Economist as bought and paid for. Wouldn't you?

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    19. Re:Duh... by RonVNX · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The Economist has been getting this right forever. Full current and back issues, and they never tried to foist PDFs on subscribers instead of HTML.

    20. Re:Duh... by deoxyribonucleose · · Score: 5, Insightful

      They get technology reasonably well. They occasionally call out the occasional walking piece of corruption that other are resigned to (read: Silvio Berlusconi). But editorial-wise, they are very far right. They supported the iraq war, they believed in WMD, and they denied global warming for a very long time (until 2007?).

      Far right? Too simplistic. You may not like all their editorial stances, but that does not make them right (sic!). They were and remain skeptical of proposed measures against global warming: would they be effective? would they be efficient? which aren't bad questions to raise for a magazine with that name. Being skeptical is not necessarily 'denying', especially if you prove willing to change your stance with further evidence. They also want to abolish the British monarchy (for starters): not exactly the position one traditionally associates with the conservative right. On Iraqi WMD they were duped and admitted it frankly: so were plenty of other publications and institutions few would call 'right-wing'. They also fell heads-over-heel for Obama.

      Me? I'm just a sucker for beatiful and efficient prose, with an occasional dash of dry humour. Would that I could achieve it.

    21. Re:Duh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They did however decline to endorse Dubya for a second term, realizing that anyone would be a better choice.

    22. Re:Duh... by zevans · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm interested to see how the FCC plan to impose this on the London Times, the Independent, The Guardian, The Telegraph, Die Welt, Le Monde...

      --
      "... and more and more now there are all kinds of electronic goodies available" -- Pink Floyd 1972
    23. Re:Duh... by AmiMoJo · · Score: 4, Funny

      Maybe he should have tried this experiment with The Sun. With your paper subscription you get:

      1. Tits

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    24. Re:Duh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Disclaimer: I hate Murdoch and his empire.

      I think it's easy for us to look at this and say "Obviously this will fail" and call it predictable. But you know, guys like him built their empires on trial and error and by doing things while everyone else said it was a bad idea.

      So I do think it's slightly progressive of him to try this, but it's just too late. If he tried this from the start, the flow of information might be very different.

      This applies to lots of things like the RIAA/MPAA too. They really missed their chance to develop pay models and now the stage is set for free access to these media. It's just what people expect now and it's a hard bell to unring.

      However, I think the key point is that this happened by mistake and by large media's lack of foresight. If they had it to do over again, we'd have tired internet with limited data rates and micropayment systems on just about any type of content.

      I think we should all take a moment and be proud of how the net evolved and count our blessings that we had the lucky streaks we did to end up with such freedoms on the web that we have. And we need to fight hard to protect them.

    25. Re:Duh... by mcelrath · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The name of the magazine is "The Economist". They have a particular viewpoint (hint, it's in the name). On that topic and from that perspective they are very, very good. On non-economic topics, why would you expect them to be any better than your local newspaper? Read it for what it is and what it represents: an economic perspective. Of course there's more to life than economics, and you should look elsewhere for editorials on it.

      --
      1^2=1; (-1)^2=1; 1^2=(-1)^2; 1=-1; 1=0.
    26. Re:Duh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, you'll then be happy to know that they ARE working on an iPad application.

      I interviewed with them a couple of months ago and that came up on the interview ;)

    27. Re:Duh... by rossjudson · · Score: 1

      Consumer's Digest. I'd be shocked if their web site hasn't been a runaway success.

    28. Re:Duh... by ottothecow · · Score: 1
      I'd have to say its more along the lines of the WSJ is a standard source for a lot of things.

      You can't cite the standard source if you can't read it (also, online access comes with a paid paper subscription).

      While I use old WSJ info regularly at work...I don't think I have ever even seen an article from newsday (whose paywall failed as well). Not being from the UK, I can't say for sure...but I would guess that the Times/Sunday times have suitable alternates while the WSJ/FT do not.

      --
      Bottles.
    29. Re:Duh... by link-error · · Score: 5, Informative

      If you want free real-time access to stock pricing information, just throw a little money into a ScotTrade account. You don't even have to actually buy anything and they pay you interest on the money as well.

      --
      -Unresolved symbol? Byte me!
    30. Re:Duh... by operagost · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I'm glad you somehow missed what the fish-wrappers and celebrity elites were saying while W was in office, but I remember:
      1. Bush planned 9/11
      2. Bush lied about WMDs
      3. Bush is sending citizens to Gitmo
      4. Bush banned fetal stem cell research
      5. Bush is turning the USA into a theocracy
      6. Bush went AWOL
      7. Bush is an idiot
      8. Bush is an evil genius
      9. Bush got everything handed to him because of his dad's connections
      10. Bush stole the 2000 election (and even the 2004 election)
      11. Bush is spending us into a huge hole... wait, that one was true.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    31. Re:Duh... by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      Bribe the EU Parliament? ;-) But seriously I wonder why the US is suffering a "cellphone spectrum shortage" but the EU is not. We must be doing something wrong, or else it's just a lot of US FUD for a problem that doesn't really exist.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    32. Re:Duh... by Entrope · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Yo dawg -- I heard you liked cable sports networks so I bundled a magazine with the web site so you can flip through the glossies and read the blags while you drive around and watch TV sports.

    33. Re:Duh... by Tei · · Score: 1

      It also seems working for SomethingAwnfull.

      --

      -Woof woof woof!

    34. Re:Duh... by gestalt_n_pepper · · Score: 4, Informative

      Agreed. The "Wall Street Journal" has morphed into "Wall Street People Magazine" and useful to line my cat litter box and stuff packages containing fragile items but not much more. FT is still tolerable if you want information about the economy, but don't want to have ultraconservative delusional thinking shoved down your throat as "Investor's Business Daily" does.

      --
      Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
    35. Re:Duh... by ElectricTurtle · · Score: 1

      He's not talking about print/web, he's talking about over-the-air TV network news. However a) it's unlikely to happen and b) it's only relevant to dumb hicks in the boonies because everybody else either pays for cable/satellite or gets everything through the internet.

      --
      I support the Slashcott and will not be reading or commenting from 2/10/14 to 2/17/14. Beta is steaming pile of dog shit
    36. Re:Duh... by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      Maybe you're joking but that's not really a good comparison.

      SomethingAwful memberships are a one-time fee of $10. One payment, for life, unless you get yourself banned (and if you're facing a ban for making a shitty thread, you may be able to get out of it via the Moderator Challenge (NSFW)).

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    37. Re:Duh... by Blymie · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Sure, but if you are left/centrist, this is why you should read them. (re: right wing political views)

      I always make sure to read articles / magazines that make me angry. Otherwise, I will insulate myself, and risk becoming religious about my position. I'm more centrist, and tend to read articles from both ends of the political spectrum.

      I've read The Economist for a while, and find that yes -- they do indeed tend to lean right. However, they have many articles that do not, and I've found that they do tend to (more often than others) simply attempt to present the facts.

      Of course, you must make sure you differentiate between articles of opinion, and articles of news...

      Lastly, The Economist tends to target an audience with a bit more intelligence than say.. Fox News... or other tabloid like publications. This makes its articles more palatable.

      One last thing. I've often found that the true nutjobs come out at _both_ ends of the political spectrum.. very right or very left of central.

         

    38. Re:Duh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I subscribe to the Economist and The Times because they visually complement the leather bound Adam Smith collection in my foyer. I find that they cultivate that sense of respectability and -- to be gauche -- old money. Well, tally ho, off to the garden...

    39. Re:Duh... by arivanov · · Score: 4, Funny

      Correction - that should be:

      3. Tits.

      --
      Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
      http://www.sigsegv.cx/
    40. Re:Duh... by arivanov · · Score: 1

      They are quite different because most of them offer their index and the article abstracts for free. You read a specific piece of information you are interested in and you usually read it because it has been quoted elsewhere.

      That is quite different from the Sun paywall, the Economics/FT paywall or the WSJ paywall.

      --
      Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
      http://www.sigsegv.cx/
    41. Re:Duh... by Experiment+626 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      But editorial-wise, they are very far right. They supported the iraq war, they believed in WMD, and they denied global warming for a very long time (until 2007?).

      How is that "very far right"? At the time it began, the Iraq war had widespread favor across the political spectrum, with most of the Senate Democrats voting in favor of it, including the oh-so-very-far-right Hilary Clinton. Belief in WMD was similarly pervasive, since the intelligence community was saying they were there, and no evidence had come out yet to suggest this analysis was incorrect.

    42. Re:Duh... by Thinboy00 · · Score: 1

      The Economist is pretty interesting and may have more original content than, say, the NY Times (any AP member paper has pretty much the same news content, with some exceptions, mostly in the "too dull to bother" department). I've never heard of the Financial Times, so I can't comment. There are many people who "need" the content in the WSJ in real time.

      --
      $ make available
    43. Re:Duh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Economist has a pay wall?

      feed://www.economist.com/rss/daily_news_and_views_rss.xml

    44. Re:Duh... by Fishy · · Score: 1

      "I think that they are one of the few companies that get it"

      Hmmmmm. I had a trial subscription, £1 per month or something, until it stopped for no reason. Several weeks later they sent me a letter (even though they had my email) to tell me the bank DD didn't work, together with a seeming random bank error string that looked like a line from a core dump. I phoned them up, they didn't know how to fix it, and that was the end of that.

    45. Re:Duh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The name of the newspaper is "The Economist".

      And there is a valid reason for this fact.

    46. Re:Duh... by geekoid · · Score: 2, Informative

      "it was a labor of love.

      Yes, I'm sure the act there was no good advertising method had nothing to do with that~

      I also remember it was :
      A) NO ads, or;
      B) screaming op up adds, and plenty of them. Often opening windows i pt in size or outside the screen area of a computer.

      Before that, well it wasn't much to look at.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    47. Re:Duh... by js_sebastian · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They get technology reasonably well. They occasionally call out the occasional walking piece of corruption that other are resigned to (read: Silvio Berlusconi). But editorial-wise, they are very far right. They supported the iraq war, they believed in WMD, and they denied global warming for a very long time (until 2007?).

      I wouldn't call the economist far right... they are in favor of legalization of drugs, for instance, and are generally against all forms of prohibitionism. I think they are quite left-wing on many social issues (in favor of civil liberties, etc), and a bit right wing on economy (as in strongly free market oriented).

    48. Re:Duh... by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1, Insightful

      The surprising part is that Obama announced he supports the plan.

      I never cease to be amazed at the things Obama does that surprise people. Why are you surprised? This is a move that is very good for a limited number of very big companies. Democrats have always been in favor of government regulations that favor big companies (see the latest Fat Cat Enablement...I mean Finance Reform Act, put together by the people who brought you the housing market bubble ans subsequent crash: Barney Frank and Chris Dodd).

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    49. Re:Duh... by geekoid · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Lets break it down:
      "1. Bush planned 9/11"
        false, That was statement by a few conspiracy whackaloons

      "2. Bush lied about WMDs"
      True.

      "3. Bush is sending citizens to Gitmo"
      true

      "4. Bush banned fetal stem cell research"
      federal dollars, however for practical reason that just about killed it.

      "5. Bush is turning the USA into a theocracy"
      Bring more religion into the government is one of his stated goals

      "6. Bush went AWOL"
      True.

      "7. Bush is an idiot"
      True

      "8. Bush is an evil genius"
      no one ever said that.

      "9. Bush got everything handed to him because of his dad's connections"
      True.

      "10. Bush stole the 2000 election (and even the 2004 election)"
      true and true. Clarification: Republicans did. 2000 was shameful and a slap in the face to every American. 2004 was full of wide spread fraud. District not counted, people sent away, voting booths were closed or not st up in heavy democrat counties.

      It was shameful. For clarification: The Shameful part has nothing to do with who won.

      "11. Bush is spending us into a huge hole... wait, that one was true."
      Yes it was. The whole republican party was spending, borrowing and deregulating.
      The republican party has very few actually conservatives anymore, and any party that punishes anyone behaving outside of the leader narrowly decided upon views should be abandoned by thinking persons.

      .

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    50. Re:Duh... by grumpyman · · Score: 1

      Dude: can I download the podcast and put it in a CD/MP3 player so I can listen to in the car?

    51. Re:Duh... by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      if anyone would have talked about Bush when he was in office the way Murdoch's "news" station talks about Obama, Faux News and the neocons would have called them "traitors" and screamed bloody murder.

      Did they call for his assasination the way the left did of Bush?

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    52. Re:Duh... by joshsnow · · Score: 3, Informative

      They also fell heads-over-heel for Obama.
      That's not quite accurate. They strongly supported John McCain until it became obvious that Palin was sinking his ship. Their support for Obama has always been critical and muted.

    53. Re:Duh... by xaxa · · Score: 1

      The nearest thing to the Times is the Daily Telegraph, although that's more conservative.

      Other newspapers are read by more similar voters (e.g. Daily Express, Daily Mail), but they tend to be full of celebrity and sport stories. The Times is often thought to be the most balanced, and I think it is nearest to average on those statistics. Only the Evening Standard is nearer, but that's the only regional paper for all of London (and is only published in the evening), so it's a bit different.

      There's always this famous opinion.

    54. Re:Duh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Murdoch's UK Paywall a Miserable Failure

      Wow, never saw that coming.

    55. Re:Duh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Yes, you're old and your memory is a fragile thing full of holes. Popups were already a problem in the late 90s. By the early 2000s, there were popups, popunders, flash stuff with sound floating over the content, and random words turned into links that'd show an ad when you moused over them. By 2002 I had a very long hosts file directing stuff to 127.0.0.1.

      I remember SOME sites still had only one ad banner back around '96-'97, but those memories have the same misty quality as, say, when people claim that kids today have no respect (implying that some time in the past, they DID have respect).

    56. Re:Duh... by PincushionMan · · Score: 1

      3. I can cancel my subscription whenever I want AND GET THE REMAINING MONEY BACK! (This is a big YES THEY GOT HOW TO TREAT THEIR CUSTOMERS.)

      Dude, what newspapers have you been doing business with? From what I understand, all of them have either average-copy-rate or rate-by-period that pings your unearned revenue (since you pay in advance) each publishing day for a daily amount, which is typically computed when you make a payment. In fact, if I understand correctly, for subscribers, the earned revenue is what the newspaper pays taxes on. They may pay taxes on the earned interest, but I'm not sure about that. Unless the amount is under a given threshold (like $3 to $5), they are obligated to return it. Even if it is under that amount, you can donate to NIE (Newspapers in Education) or another subscriber, if you know one. Even then, most states have a 'treasure box' law that requires newspapers to give unclaimed money to the state governments instead of themselves. Most don't have a minimum, so no amount is too small for the government to take.

      That said, there are newspapers offering non-refundable promo subscriptions - you gotta read the fine print on those Promo deals.

    57. Re:Duh... by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      >>>it's only relevant to dumb hicks in the boonies

      I'll be sure to tell that to my friend who lives just 30 miles from Pittsburgh, but still has nothing but Dialup and Antenna TV. That was very un-Democrat of you to make that remark.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    58. Re:Duh... by Raisey-raison · · Score: 1

      I think it all boils down to price. You know a physical copy is expensive to print and deliver. So there is much less sticker shock. For virtual subscriptions you need internet access and a computer so you provide the delivery and pay for it. So at $150 - $200 a year (depending on the exchange rate) it's just a rip off.

      On the other hand if The Times charged $25 - $35 a year I think a lot more people would consider it.

    59. Re:Duh... by TheLink · · Score: 1

      Their science and technology section is far better than the nonexistent science and tech sections in most local newspapers.

      As for the claims of "far right" slant, I find those to be rather strange claims.

      --
    60. Re:Duh... by innocent_white_lamb · · Score: 1

      they never tried to foist PDFs on subscribers instead of HTML
       
      Among other things, I am the "computer guy" for a small publishing company which offers online subscriptions to the paper as well as printed copies.
       
      The online paper is behind a paywall; subscribers actually pay what I consider to be a fairly high amount of money for the content.
       
      When I first set up the online paper (several years ago) I offered it as html files similar to how a website is laid out -- index page, click on the section that you want to read.
       
      To my surprise, I got a lot of feedback from the subscribers asking for a version that they could download and read offline, so I started creating a pdf version of the online paper as well.
       
      The server logs show me that about 80% of the subscribers read the html version of the paper and the pdf version is downloaded by about 35% of the subscribers.
       
      Side note: Around the beginning of this year I started also creating a "mobile version" of the paper for folks with Blackberries and the like -- just the content with no graphics, etc. I see more and more of the subscribers are reading the "mobile version" as time goes by; their user strings show that they use mostly Blackberry and Samsung phones for that.
       
      I suspect that at least part of the reason for the popularity of the pdf version of the paper is that many/most of the primary subscribers are farmers who may be on dial-up or satellite Internet.

      --
      If you're a zombie and you know it, bite your friend!
    61. Re:Duh... by Anne+Thwacks · · Score: 1
      The Times is often thought to be the most balanced,

      It is a lng time since the Tiomes was a serious newspaper, known as "The Thunderer" and respected by all. It has become so dumbed down, only Sun readers would read it now, but the Sun has pictures.

      If the pay wall had not killed The Times, it would have died anyway.

      --
      Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
    62. Re:Duh... by IICV · · Score: 3, Funny

      Unfortunately, all the other pages contain bollocks. It's kind of a tradeoff, like when you accidentally surf gay porn.

    63. Re:Duh... by Bemopolis · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Senate Democrats did not vote for the Iraq War because they believed in it. They voted for it to avoid looking like spineless cowards. Which, in the end, means that they *are* spineless cowards.

      Belief in WMD was similarly pervasive, since the intelligence community was saying they were there, and no evidence had come out yet to suggest this analysis was incorrect.

      Except for the testimony of the UN weapons inspectors, and Hussein Kamel, and Joe Wilson (the diplomat, not the "You lie!" jagoff). And those who noted that the first national security meeting of the Bush administration covered the possibility of invading Iraq, which might be coloring their kitchen-sink approach to justifying an invasion ("He tried to kill mah daddy!"). Oh, and the fact that the chief CIA witness had the codename "Curveball" ferchrissakes. But beisdes all of that, yes, no one doubted the word of the administration.

      --
      "I guess the moral of the story is, don't paint your airship with rocket fuel." -- Addison Bain
    64. Re:Duh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      > and they denied global warming for a very long time (until 2007?).

      Citation please? Are we talking about the same paper? I've been reading The Economist for years.

      http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2006/10/who_will_pay_for_climate_chang

      As for Iraq... They did screw that up a bit, but not as badly as the other "news" sources:

      http://media.economist.com/countries/Iraq/fromtheeconomist.cfm?next=721

    65. Re:Duh... by longhairedgnome · · Score: 1

      Hmm... interesting.....

      --
      GENERATION O98346: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig and remove a random number from the generation. T
    66. Re:Duh... by cbraescu1 · · Score: 1

      Usually far-left believes mainstream or right are far-right.

      And before the lefties here accuse me of being biased, I add that usually far-right believes mainstream and left are far-left.

      --
      Catalin Braescu
      Ofaly.com
    67. Re:Duh... by ElectricTurtle · · Score: 1

      I'm a libertarian, of whom most people think I'm right-leaning. I also only watch over-the-air TV, when I watch TV at all, which hasn't been in almost a year because I moved to a place that doesn't receive any digital signals. (Thanks FCC.) HOWEVER, because I have THE INTERNET that doesn't matter. I can watch whatever shows I care about (which are few) one way or another, and news is omnipresent (it's even here, right now, watching us type! ooooo!).

      --
      I support the Slashcott and will not be reading or commenting from 2/10/14 to 2/17/14. Beta is steaming pile of dog shit
    68. Re:Duh... by SimonTheSoundMan · · Score: 1

      I hate it when papers just copy and past from press releases. I know plenty of papers that do this.

    69. Re:Duh... by Capablanca · · Score: 0

      i've been a WSJ online subscribe for over a decade. the last time i was up for renewal, the subscription rate doubled. i punted. a month or so later, i received an offer to subscribe at my old rate. i accepted. my subscription is up for renewal again. the price was double *and* they were trying to automatically renew it. i called and said unless you match last year's price (or lower) and unless you suspend automatic renewal, i'm gone. these people are OUT OF THEIR MINDS.

    70. Re:Duh... by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1, Informative

      There was a book about assassinating Bush, there was a movie about assassinating Bush. Both of these received rave reviews in the NYT. Here is a link to some of the signs held up at protests http://www.binscorner.com/pages/d/death-threats-against-bush-at-protests-i.html Have you seen anything similar on Fox (in particular the CBS show that had a picture of Bush with "Snipers Wanted" inserted).
      I see by your comment about Cheney that you are a fan of Bill Maher who said that someone should kill Dick Cheney..

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    71. Re:Duh... by Raenex · · Score: 1

      They strongly supported John McCain until it became obvious that Palin was sinking his ship.

      McCain's ship was already sinking by the time he chose Palin out of desperation. It actually worked for awhile, too, if you remember, until the media tore her apart.

    72. Re:Duh... by horza · · Score: 1

      From an article I read, even then often people aren't really paying for it. For many the FT and Economist can be written off as a legitimate business expense.

      Phillip.

    73. Re:Duh... by Lord+Ender · · Score: 1

      They don't actually pay you interest on your cash account these days. And if you're interested in real-time stock prices, you are a trader, and all trading platforms give you access to that data.

      --
      A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
    74. Re:Duh... by david_thornley · · Score: 4, Funny

      No true leftist would have called for Bush's assassination until after Cheney's funeral. Preferably after Cheney's body had been exhumed, his head cut off, his mouth stuffed with garlic, a wooden stake driven through his heart, and the results sealed in a steel coffin with a non-denominational religious symbol on it and buried at a crossroads at midnight. Get real.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    75. Re:Duh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you get on the plane quickly (as in you're in business or the tail end of economy), you can often get the Economist for free (at least with Asian airlines)

    76. Re:Duh... by babblefrog · · Score: 1

      There were network TV news shows that called for the assassination of Bush? I missed that.

    77. Re:Duh... by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      How is that "very far right"? At the time it began, the Iraq war had widespread favor across the political spectrum, with most of the Senate Democrats voting in favor of it, including the oh-so-very-far-right Hilary Clinton.

      People can shift across the spectrum, but policies are fixed. The war was definitely strongly on the right (I wouldn't call it "far right", though), and Dems being in favor of it just indicates their populism and willingness to subscribe to whatever ideology is popular at the moment - for which they were quite rightly lambasted later.

    78. Re:Duh... by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Yes, and neocons did indeed call people who said those things "traitors" and screamed bloody murder.

    79. Re:Duh... by mdda · · Score: 1

      +1 for recommending the Economist. Excellent content. Over 2/3s of it is politics rather than business/finance. And even the technology reporting is well-informed (e.g. treats Open Source in a rational way).

      If anyone is claiming the Economist is just for money types : They should actually read a copy.

    80. Re:Duh... by bit9 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      At the time it began, the Iraq war had widespread favor across the political spectrum, with most of the Senate Democrats voting in favor of it, including the oh-so-very-far-right Hilary Clinton. Belief in WMD was similarly pervasive, since the intelligence community was saying they were there, and no evidence had come out yet to suggest this analysis was incorrect.

      I'm not sure what part of the country you live in, but as I recall it, belief in WMD was anything but pervasive. I, along with numerous friends, acquaintances, family members, coworkers, etc, was absolutely appalled that we were actually going to invade Iraq based on such flimsy pretenses.

      Mind you, I'm not exactly a liberal pacifist who was concerned about unjustly attacking poor ol' Saddam - my concerns about the WMD evidence mostly stemmed from the fact that invading Iraq was bound to be a decade-long (or longer) quagmire, which would cost the lives of thousands of American soldiers, not to mention countless billions of taxpayer dollars. I just wanted to be assured that there was a damn good reason for going through with all of that.

      I kept asking the question, "Where's the hard evidence?". There never was any. All I ever saw was smoke and mirrors, lots of dog-and-pony shows with paper-thin wisps of "evidence", and "intelligence" reports that absolutely reeked of political spin and creative interpretation. Honestly, I probably would have found it more convincing if they'd just said that they'd consulted a witch-doctor who had divined the presence of WMDs in Iraq while in a peyote-induced trance.

      And mind you, I'm not someone you would generally consider a liberal, so it's not as if my experience was due to my own political leanings, nor those of my peers. I live in the Los Angeles area, and my friends, family, and coworkers are roughly an equal mix of liberals, conservatives, and apolitical types. Even among my conservative friends, there seemed to be some palpable concern that the WMD evidence was a bit flimsy. I'd hardly call that a pervasive belief. Then again, that was just my own experience. YMMV.

    81. Re:Duh... by Raenex · · Score: 1

      Except for the testimony of the UN weapons inspectors

      You should try reading the report right before the invasion. There wasn't a smoking gun, and the inspectors wanted more time, but they also noted that Saddam had to be dragged kicking and screaming the whole way to let the inspectors do their work. Saddam didn't do himself any favors by acting like he had something to hide.

    82. Re:Duh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Same here, I actually buy $25/year subs as presents, people are amazed at what value they get from podcast+magazine+web for the money.

    83. Re:Duh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't know whose tits YOU've been looking at but most normal people have 2, not 1 or 3...

    84. Re:Duh... by TemporalBeing · · Score: 0, Offtopic
      Could corrections...

      "2. Bush lied about WMDs"
      True.

      True, but it was also the best intelligence could offer for a whole host of reasons. It was more an intelligence failure than Bush spouting falsehoods.

      "7. Bush is an idiot"
      True

      False - though unpopular. Bush is actually quite smart guy, though he doesn't necessarily come across as such. On the other hand, Obama comes across as such, but is really an idiot when it comes down to it.

      "10. Bush stole the 2000 election (and even the 2004 election)"
      true and true. Clarification: Republicans did. 2000 was shameful and a slap in the face to every American. 2004 was full of wide spread fraud. District not counted, people sent away, voting booths were closed or not st up in heavy democrat counties.

      Agreed it was shameful. Both on the part of the Democrats and the Republicans. But Bush did not steal the election.

      "11. Bush is spending us into a huge hole... wait, that one was true."
      Yes it was. The whole republican party was spending, borrowing and deregulating. The republican party has very few actually conservatives anymore, and any party that punishes anyone behaving outside of the leader narrowly decided upon views should be abandoned by thinking persons.

      And the Democrats haven't done any better. Obama has already spent more money then Bush did, albeit differently.

      --
      Truth is like the sun. You can shut it out for a time, but it ain't goin' away. - Elvis Presley (source: imdb.com)
    85. Re:Duh... by TemporalBeing · · Score: 1

      The NY Times tried it a few years ago. It didn't pan out (quite a disaster for them); so they reverted back.

      --
      Truth is like the sun. You can shut it out for a time, but it ain't goin' away. - Elvis Presley (source: imdb.com)
    86. Re:Duh... by Bassman59 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      They strongly supported John McCain until it became obvious that Palin was sinking his ship.

      McCain's ship was already sinking by the time he chose Palin out of desperation. It actually worked for awhile, too, if you remember, until the media tore her apart.

      Uh, the media did not tear her apart. She self-destructed by whiffing on the softball questions tossed to by Katie Couric, after which her access to the media was limited to Fox News. It soon became clear that she was an airhead (or worse). McCain's choice of such a woefully inadequate running mate showed that his judgement was indeed poor, and as such the so-called "Independent voters" broke for Obama.

      So, what you call "the media tear[ing] her apart" is really an all-too-rare example of the media doing their job.

    87. Re:Duh... by Bassman59 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Except for the testimony of the UN weapons inspectors

      You should try reading the report right before the invasion. There wasn't a smoking gun, and the inspectors wanted more time, but they also noted that Saddam had to be dragged kicking and screaming the whole way to let the inspectors do their work. Saddam didn't do himself any favors by acting like he had something to hide.

      Saddam, being a strongman, was trying to avoid looking weak to his subjects and to the larger Arab world. He had too much invested in the appearance of having a WMD program to just up and go, "Hah! Just kidding!"

      Yes, the weapons inspectors wanted more time, because when it comes to prosecuting a war of choice -- and that's what it was -- they wanted to be certain. Bush of course just wanted to "Get Saddam" and couldn't stand waiting for diplomacy and inspections.

    88. Re:Duh... by rduke15 · · Score: 2, Informative

      At the time it began, the Iraq war had widespread favor across the political spectrum, [...] . Belief in WMD was similarly pervasive

      It may be useful to point out that this was only in the US, as far as I know. Of course, the US perception is what's the most relevant and important, since they started the war, but it's still interesting to be aware that it was limited to the US and very few other countries.

      In continental Europe, the Iraq war had "widespread opposition across the political spectrum". And belief in WMD was definitely not "pervasive".

      On the radio, I heard people like the boss of the UN inspectors, and others, explaining that the allegations didn't seem to make sense. They complained about all the problems they had to do their inspections because Iraq was very uncooperative, but at the same time, they still seemed very confident that there was no active WMD program, and that the programs that did exist had stopped after the first Gulf war and couldn't possibly have seriously restarted.

    89. Re:Duh... by SonnyDog09 · · Score: 1

      Of course, how could we forget that "Dissent is the highest form of patriotism." What goes around, comes around.

      --
      Your "fair share" is NOT in my wallet.
    90. Re:Duh... by nospam007 · · Score: 1

      "...have operated reasonably successful paywalls(though their cases probably differ a bit because their main market is University/Institutional libraries..."

      IOW their customers have no choice.

    91. Re:Duh... by 10101001+10101001 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      At the time it began, the Iraq war had widespread favor across the political spectrum, with most of the Senate Democrats voting in favor of it, including the oh-so-very-far-right Hilary Clinton.

      As been stated many times before, the US politically is pretty right leaning. This includes Hillary Clinton who, along with Joe Lieberman, was pushing for enforcing ESRB ratings as law (in response to the Hot Coffee mod). In comparison, a more liberal place like France seems more unwilling to rate anything R-rated (look at some popular 12 and over titles).

      Belief in WMD was similarly pervasive, since the intelligence community was saying they were there, and no evidence had come out yet to suggest this analysis was incorrect.

      Two things. One, the intelligence community was saying that nuclear WMDs would take 5 to 10 years to develop, minimal even if Saddam had gotten uranium (look at Iran's difficulties in refining large quantities of uranium; consider that to go from natural Uranium (0.7% U-235) to nuclear fuel (3% U-235) requires a lot of work and a hell of a lot more work to get to nuclear weapon grade (97% U-235)). Two, the evidence was incredibly flimsy that Saddam had made or had components for chemical weapons (the last time Saddam had chemical weapons, the US and Europe sold him a good bit of the base components). Three, Hans Blix, one of the United Nations' top two weapons experts (and an inspector) said the evidence was shaky, at best. According to Scott Ritter who was UN weapons inspector during most of the 90s, even though only perhaps 90-95% of all factories/weapons/etc, Iraq wasn't a significant threat with what remained. As much as it was consistently clear to Blix and others that Saddam wanted WMDs and repeatedly tried to test the UN to see if he could wiggle in a way to import components and construct WMDs, it was also clear that Saddam kept backing down because he realized that the reprisal for actually pushing the UN that far wouldn't actually work.

      In short, the very people who'd actually been in Iraq for years on the ground and who had personally dealt with the oversight of such things--ie, the people one probably should really be listening to if one cared about the facts and the truth--were specifically stating before the Iraq War that the war was not justified based on WMDs. Meanwhile, the CIA was well on its way towards overthrowing Saddam; and incidentally, the CIA is precisely where all this questionable intelligence was coming from.

      Btw, because I was actually listening to Hans Blix before the Iraq War, I was against it before it started. I was also quite aware, with the progressive drum beating as the war start date approached that the people in charge had little interest in actually reviewing the facts since they'd settled on a train of thought and a course of action (consider the Bush years and Global Warming and how long it took for even the smallest acknowledgment that "the evidence is still unclear" was some rather clear bullshit). As for the Senate Democrats who are moderate or even left, most acted like pitiful, fearful politicians. It was better to vote for a war blindly than to look "weak" on terrorism (remember the whole push for the Iraq-Al Quaeda connnection; that's why). Btw, perhaps that's the reason so many people voted for Obama, since he never voted for the war and that made him, once the war was unpopular, look steadfast and strong (and politically lucky, since he wasn't in the Senate until 2005); but, I digress.

      In double short, the only people who believed in the WMDs were (a) those in power (which I'd argue were rather far righ

      --
      Eurohacker European paranoia, gun rights, and h
    92. Re:Duh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      dude ! Hilarious ! Your trying to defend Murdoch ? Ha ! Fuck him and his corporate whores

    93. Re:Duh... by Risen888 · · Score: 1

      The Clinton administration bombed the shit out of Iraq for years. Did they also "not believe in it?"

      --
      Hey, I finally got my first freak! Took you long enough!
    94. Re:Duh... by ommerson · · Score: 1

      The Sun success in printed form is due to it being a jack of all trades, and the sum of its parts assembled into a convenient form suitable for its target demographic to consume. That package is not online behind a paywall, but sold in printed form, for (most likely) for less than the cost of printing and distribution to white-van-man, construction workers and the like. Arguably none of the constituent parts are unique or terribly exclusive, and alternatives can be found elsewhere for nothing.

    95. Re:Duh... by Bemopolis · · Score: 1

      The Clinton administration bombed the shit out of Iraq for years.

      Four days in 1998. Not years — four *days*. And that was over a lack of cooperation with weapons inspectors, who were looking for (and not finding) WMD manufacturing. (There was a cruise missile attack in 1993, ostensibly due to the attempted assassination of the former President Bush while he was in Kuwait.)

      And, you might recall, rather than backing wholeheartedly the announced plan to degrade Saddam Hussein's supposed production WMD facilities, the Republicans in Congress accused Clinton of trying to distract from the impeachment hearings they were holding. Thus, they were either a) not convinced of an extensive WMD operation in Iraq, or b) thought that Iraq's possession of WMDs was a less pressing matter than investigating perjury from a married man over consensual sex on government property.

      --
      "I guess the moral of the story is, don't paint your airship with rocket fuel." -- Addison Bain
    96. Re:Duh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Note which of these publications is NOT owned by Rupert Murdok.

    97. Re:Duh... by Raenex · · Score: 1

      Bush of course just wanted to "Get Saddam" and couldn't stand waiting for diplomacy and inspections.

      Bush also had another valid point. How long could he be expected to keep an army poised for invasion at Iraq's border? Because that's what it took to finally get cooperation from Saddam. I agree with your point about Saddam, he made a career out of being a strongman. It was the dangerous game he played, and eventually he lost.

    98. Re:Duh... by yuna49 · · Score: 1

      I once let my Economist subscription lapse for a couple of weeks. When I renewed they sent me the missing issues automatically.

      There are just too many free alternatives at the moment to make a paywall work for a newspaper. Someday the New York Times might make me start paying, and there's some chance I might if it's cheap enough. If it's anything like Murdoch's $3/week, I'll just send some more money to NPR and keep my Economist subscription.

    99. Re:Duh... by Raenex · · Score: 1

      Uh, the media did not tear her apart.

      Do you remember the coming-out interview she had with Charlie Gibson? He clearly had it in for her with his paternalistic tone and silly gotcha about the "Bush Doctrine". That got the ball rolling and the media picked up on it from there. This article sums it up nicely.

      She self-destructed by whiffing on the softball questions tossed to by Katie Couric

      On that I agree, not being able to answer the question of what newspapers she read was cringe-worthy. She really should have just been honest, and stated what was obvious: She was focused on local politics, not national, and that she was going to have to ramp up in a hurry. The media would have pounced on that too, but at least it would have been refreshingly candid, and as a vice president candidate something I suspect many voters could have forgiven her for if they agreed with her politics and job as governor of Alaska.

      McCain's choice of such a woefully inadequate running mate showed that his judgement was indeed poor, and as such the so-called "Independent voters" broke for Obama.

      I disagree. She certainly wasn't any worse a choice than Quayle, and the first Bush got elected with him. The independent voters had already broken for Obama by the time McCain picked her. McCain wasn't going to win with a traditional VP pick. I think it was a smart choice, and for awhile it worked. The funny thing is Palin is still relevant in politics. This has worked out pretty well for her.

    100. Re:Duh... by yuna49 · · Score: 1

      As a former university professor, I find the limits on access to scientific papers appalling. Companies like Wiley, Elsevier and the like have had nice little fiefdoms that depended on the captive audience of academic libraries. I don't begrudge them charging for articles written in the past year or two, but I find it offensive that I cannot read a decade-old piece of academic research today for free. I might pay a dollar or two for an article of that age, but $20 or more? Nope, not gonna happen.

      Let's not forget the huge indirect subsidies these publishers get from places like the National Institutes of Health; research proposals usually include a line-item to cover the costs of publication.

      So what happens when a student with little or no funds wants to read an article? Is he or she going to pony up the $20+ fee? No, they're going take the library's copy to the photocopier. How does the publisher earn anything on that transaction?

    101. Re:Duh... by Richard+W.M.+Jones · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'm a subscriber to the Economist too, but the reason I think it works is their content is not just warmed-over daily news. It's a collection of well-researched, unique and interesting weekly essays. Murdoch is never going to be able to do the same thing with the Times.

      Rich.

    102. Re:Duh... by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      Don't celebrate yet. They aren't done.

      What Murdoch and other Rich corporations (ATT, Verizon) are trying to do now is get the FCC to take-away free access to the news. The FCC has developed a plan to lock-up previously free content by handing frequencies to cellphone companies. What was once free (via antenna) will now only be available via an expensive Cellphone subscription (~$100 a month) or Cable Net subscription (~$60/month). The surprising part is that Obama announced he supports the plan.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    103. Re:Duh... by Vintermann · · Score: 1

      Remember that the Economist is a British magazine. Belief in WMDs and support for the war was not as pervasive there. AFAIK, most of the active global warming deniers in the UK are also in UKIP and beyond.

      They have backtracked on both those issues though, I will give them that. And they have some positions which are unpopular in the UK right wing, such as EU support. So it could be that I judge them somewhat harshly.

      --
      xkcd is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.
    104. Re:Duh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Economist's viewpoint is pro free trade. That's what "economism" meant when the magazine was started in the 1800s. However, The Economist also supports a social safety net, like Britian but unlike the American right wing.

      Economics itself gets into a whole lot of other areas: current events, politics, the environment, etc. You have to understand all these things in order to make economic pronoucements that are relevant and worthwhile. That's why The Economist gets into all those other subjects.

      A corollary of this is to apply economic theories to explain other aspects of human behavior, as in "The Undercover Economist" and "Freakonomics".

    105. Re:Duh... by mattack2 · · Score: 1

      Yes, I know there are free stock listing all over the place, but you'll notice that all of them have a time delay of at least several hours.

      Whatchu talking about, Willis?

      According to http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/finance/quotes/fitadelay.html, the quotes are from real time to 30 minutes, depending upon the exchange. Nowhere near "several hours".

    106. Re:Duh... by mattack2 · · Score: 1

      [citation needed]

      Please give reliable info showing that OTA TV is going away.

      (BTW, "access to the news" also includes radio, so to be really picky, you'd have to provide citation for free radio going away too.)

    107. Re:Duh... by stoanhart · · Score: 1

      They do make an audio edition. All subscribers have access to it. If you are a member of certain private sites, they are promptly uploaded weekly. Excellent paper.

    108. Re:Duh... by MattBD · · Score: 1

      New Scientist? I subscribe to that and it gives free access to their online archive, but if I remember right they only use cookies to keep nonsubscribers out and you can still link to stories fine.

    109. Re:Duh... by RocketRabbit · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Even when they don't publish AP feeds directly, it is clear that they are just rewriting them. Usually they dumb the article down as well.

      I can access the AP's feeds over the internet for free. Why pay to have them rolled onto a dead tree?

    110. Re:Duh... by pbhj · · Score: 1

      Aren't all areas of life related to economics in some way?

    111. Re:Duh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Shouldn't it be:

      2. Tits ;-)

    112. Re:Duh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      BTW, There seems to be a math error (or perhaps a missing step?) in your sig; the last line should be "2=0".

    113. Re:Duh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      >>I don't know whose tits YOU've been looking at but most normal people have 2, not 1 or 3...

      Google "Page 3" and figure it out for yourself.

    114. Re:Duh... by blackpig · · Score: 1

      Not every time - The Wall Street Journal and the Financial Times & Economist (same company) are a couple that worked.

      Not strictly correct. According to Wikipedia (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/The_economist)...
      "The Economist Group is an associate and not a subsidiary of Pearson PLC. The Financial Times Limited, which is a Pearson subsidiary, owns 50% of the share capital of The Economist Group but does not have a controlling interest. The bulk of the remaining 50% is owned by individuals including members of the Rothschild banking family of England. The Economist Group operates as a separate and independent business."

      The Economist has a limited amount of it's content available for free online and you can subscribe to it's reports (quite useful stuff) via e-mail for free also.

      AFAIK The Economist has always had a paywall. Personally, I'd prefer it didn't but the amount of free content is sufficient for quoting important stories.
      The Times and The Economist are two different business cases.

    115. Re:Duh... by bobzaguy · · Score: 0

      So if it's working for WSJ why did they just send me the "Sign up for free" email? I now read the WSJ and get 4-6 daily alerts all free. That's working for me.

    116. Re:Duh... by pfant · · Score: 1

      I started as a beta tester for the WSJ as they went through their growing stages. Years later as they tried to increase the subscription costs I would say I pass. Wasn't worth it to me. They inevitably would lower the price until I would stay on...one year was even totally free. Point is I wonder how many others are also getting a heavily discounted subscription?

    117. Re:Duh... by Risen888 · · Score: 1

      Four days in 1998. Not years — four *days*.

      Your point, sir, and I should check my facts better before I run my mouth. In my defense, I was in junior high at the time, but your correction is well taken.

      And that was over a lack of cooperation with weapons inspectors, who were looking for (and not finding) WMD manufacturing.

      OTOH, this sort of gets at what I was trying to say. The Clinton administration found no WMDs in Iraq, so they bombed them. The Bush II administration also found no WMDs in Iraq. So they bombed them. My aim here is not to score points on Bill Clinton, but to suggest that our aggressive posture toward Iraq (and other middle eastern nations) is not a left thing or a right thing or a neocon thing. It's government policy and has been for decades.

      --
      Hey, I finally got my first freak! Took you long enough!
    118. Re:Duh... by Narcogen · · Score: 1

      Have you seen the shareholder agreements of the companies in question? If you haven't, I'm not sure how you can say that. It is entirely possible for a shareholder agreement to provide for special voting rights of one party or another, and for a party who owns only 50% of all outstanding shares, or even less, to have a majority of votes, and therefore a "controlling interest".

      One may not safely conclude whether or not an interest is "controlling" or not merely by asking for the percentages owned by all the shareholders, or even by specific knowledge of the governing law of the countries in which the companies are registered. One must specifically ask who has voting control, and on what basis.

      It may be so that the FT only owns 50% of the Economist AND does not have a majority of voting rights, but one does not necessarily follow from the other.

    119. Re:Duh... by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      I didn't see a single one of those on any mainstream news outlet, not even "Bush is spending us into a huge hole". On the internet, yes, but not CNN or the like.

    120. Re:Duh... by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      The whole republican party was spending, borrowing and deregulating

      All the while cutting taxes for the rich, under the foolish and discredited "trickle down theory".

    121. Re:Duh... by yankeessuck · · Score: 1

      Picking nits here but people subscribe to WSJ and FT for business, economic and financial news. General news organizations just don't devote enough resources to do a good job covering those specialized topics. "Stock information" in the form of publicly available data is free from Yahoo, Google, CNBC, TheStreet.com and plenty other sites.

    122. Re:Duh... by Chrisq · · Score: 1

      I always make sure to read articles / magazines that make me angry.

      That's why I come to slashdot. I start with the "-2 troll" posts and work up.

    123. Re:Duh... by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      Supporting the Iraq war doesn't automatically default somebody's ideology to "far right". Supporting the continuing Iraq war does, in my opinion. And I believed in WMD because Iraq used them, so they obviously existed at some point. Remember how many left-leaning politicians (and countries) supported the beginning of the Iraq war, because it was a legitimate, UN-backed ultimatum. The deadline passed and the consequences began. Yes, everything after "mission accomplished" has been not support worthy except by the most right-leaning, but the initial reason and implementation was supported by most everyone, regardless of political ideology.

    124. Re:Duh... by selven · · Score: 1

      I think they are quite left-wing on many social issues (in favor of civil liberties, etc), and a bit right wing on economy (as in strongly free market oriented).

      I think the term for that is "libertarian".

    125. Re:Duh... by oldmildog · · Score: 1

      You're listing an 800MB audio podcast as a pro?

      --
      They have the Internet on computers now?
    126. Re:Duh... by yankeessuck · · Score: 1

      Amen. I'm a former subscriber to both WSJ and IBD. WSJ front page was worthwhile and IBD charts were awesome but the rest of those papers were pretty much one big op-ed section. Still searching for suitable replacements.

    127. Re:Duh... by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      I think you'll find the non-existent WMDs over in Syria by now.

    128. Re:Duh... by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      I used to be right of center. I am now left of center. I have not changed. The political spectrum around me has shifted. The problem with the right is that the far-right used to be the last 5% of the spectrum, but it seems to be about 50% of the spectrum now.

    129. Re:Duh... by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      I wish my American friends understood this joke. As an American who used to live in England, I want my page 3 girl here in the US, dammit!

    130. Re:Duh... by SoTerrified · · Score: 1

      McCain's choice of such a woefully inadequate running mate showed that his judgement was indeed poor, and as such the so-called "Independent voters" broke for Obama.

      I disagree. She certainly wasn't any worse a choice than Quayle, and the first Bush got elected with him.

      I'm not sure if you're young or trying to revise history, but Quayle fumbled and came across as a newcomer to politics... But he at least knew the basics.. A far cry from Palin who came across as completely clueless.

      Or to simplify, when asked relevant political questions
      Quayle would stumble. "The holocaust was an obscene period in our nation's history. No, not our nation's, but in World War II. I mean, we all lived in this century. I didn't live in this century, but in this century's history." I mean, that's awkward, but you at least understand what he was trying to say.

      Palin would be clueless or completely wrong. "They're in charge of the U.S. Senate so if they want to they can really get in there with the senators and make a lot of good policy changes that will make life better for Brandon and his family and his classroom." --Sarah Palin, getting the vice president's constitutional role wrong after being asked by a third grader what the vice president does.

      So don't compare Quayle to Palin. Very different situation. Quayle at least knew what the job/responsibilities of a Vice President were. Quayle at least knew about American foreign policies.

    131. Re:Duh... by Megane · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "2. Bush lied about WMDs" True.

      To lie about something, you have to know that it is not true at the time you say it. At the time, all the indications were that Saddam did have WMDs.

      However, I think that either Saddam really wanted everyone to think he had WMDs when he didn't, or more likely, he thought he did, and all Saddam's people were lying to him to cover up that they didn't have anything after all, whether due to fraud (spending the money on something else) or because they really couldn't get them. And because Saddam thought he had the WMDs, the intelligence agencies were duped into thinking he actually did. Then it was simply a matter of the bullshit floating to the top.

      "6. Bush went AWOL" True.

      Is that the thing that CBS and Dan Rather went on about, allegedly a typewritten document from the '70s, that turned out to be a 100% graphic match for something printed in a standard proportional font from Microsoft Word? And once that was pointed out, it instantly and completely vanished from the news cycle?

      --
      #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
    132. Re:Duh... by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      And ironically, many of my friends and co-workers seem to be dropping cable in favor of Roku and Netflix.

      Apparently, you can subscribe to particular stations through Roku?

      So they get just the five stations they want plus the downloadable shows plus the mailable movies from a huge catalog and the net price ends up about $40 a month.

      Which is about what I'm comfortable paying for cable.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    133. Re:Duh... by aCC · · Score: 1

      It's not one podcast, it's all articles as individual mp3 files.

    134. Re:Duh... by the_womble · · Score: 2, Informative

      Given that The Economist is a British publication and most people in Britain opposed the Iraq war I think does make it very right wing.

    135. Re:Duh... by Raenex · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure if you're young or trying to revise history, but Quayle fumbled and came across as a newcomer to politics... But he at least knew the basics..

      You've got to be kidding me. The running joke was about people praying that nothing happened to the President. Nobody thought Quayle was qualified to step into the President position should something happen.

      I mean, that's awkward, but you at least understand what he was trying to say.

      I read it multiple times, and I still don't know what he was trying to say, unless it was "the Holocaust was bad". Well thanks, I really needed the confirmation.

      Quayle at least knew about American foreign policies.

      And you say this based on what evidence?

    136. Re:Duh... by rrohbeck · · Score: 1

      a wooden stake driven through his heart

      Don't forget to zap his artificial heart.

    137. Re:Duh... by Boona · · Score: 1

      "it was a labor of love"

      Damn people for trying to monetize their passions so that they can do what they love for a living.

    138. Re:Duh... by goofballs · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't call the economist far right... they are in favor of legalization of drugs, for instance, and are generally against all forms of prohibitionism. I think they are quite left-wing on many social issues (in favor of civil liberties, etc), and a bit right wing on economy (as in strongly free market oriented).

      simply put, they are classically liberal.

    139. Re:Duh... by goofballs · · Score: 1

      quotes were 15-20 minute delayed, not hours, for the better part of the last decade. you can get free real time quotes now (and for the past couple years), no problemo. try: http://finance.yahoo.com/ http://www.yfinanceblog.com/blog/2008/05/28/free-real-time-ecn-quotes-launched/

    140. Re:Duh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As opposed to the ultraleftist delusional thinking shoved down your throat by the "Washington Post"? You can point out a perceived bias without interjecting your opinion of said bias.

    141. Re:Duh... by ELiTeUI · · Score: 1

      Google finance and Yahoo finance both provide free real-time quotes, and have for some time now.

    142. Re:Duh... by Mathinker · · Score: 1

      > How does the publisher earn anything on that transaction?

      In a way similar to the way that commercial software companies would prefer that the student pirate their software if he wouldn't have bought it anyway (and therefore the software will be on the student's resume, and presumably bought/used by businesses who employ the student).

      In the case of a journal, even from pirated copies the publisher gains citations which increase the reputation of the journal (and therefore the likelihood it will be bought by a library).

    143. Re:Duh... by the_womble · · Score: 1

      The Economist has a subscription web site.

      The iPad has a web browser.

      How does that not meet your requirements?

    144. Re:Duh... by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      There's nothing wrong with making a buck, but when you degrade your craft to make a buck (like with intrusive, flashy, blinkey ads covering it) you've become a whore. Google text ads? Fine. But I think it hilarious that people make their web sites look just like they want them with great UI and beautiful design then completely destroy them with dozens of "punch the monkey" ads per page.

    145. Re:Duh... by yuna49 · · Score: 1

      Most academic journals are well-known within the fields they serve. They don't need additional "reputation points" by being cited in some student's footnotes.

    146. Re:Duh... by TooMuchToDo · · Score: 1

      How about an app like Wired's, so I can read when I don't have an internet connection? Not all aircraft have wireless tubes ya know.

    147. Re:Duh... by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure if you're young or trying to revise history, but Quayle fumbled and came across as a newcomer to politics... But he at least knew the basics.. A far cry from Palin who came across as completely clueless.

      No no no no no, Quayle was often portrayed as being clueless, in part due to his tendency to commit Biden-like gaffes (the UNCF speech, the Holocost statements, etc). I remember one prominent political cartoonist (I think it might have been Mike Luckovich?) often portrayed him as sitting in a high-chair wearing a dunce cap.

      Even if he actually knew the job, most people didn't know it.

      I think a number of things hurt Palin on the ticket as compared to Quayle:

      1) Her inability to rationalize any political views without just relying on talking points prepared for her. Maybe Quayle suffered this too, but I don't recall that being the case. Palin seems to think that if she just mentions the buzzwords of freedom, patriotism, and Ronald Reagan, then everything will be fine. Unfortunately that works for a number of partisans. Fortunately a good chunk of people who identify themselves as Tea Party supporters can't stand her.
      2) The age of John McCain. This was a biggie. Senior advocates might be outraged, but a -lot- of people felt there was a very good chance McCain would have died or been incapacitated while in office. I wish he'd beaten Bush in the 2000 primary. But in 2008 he was just too old.
      3) People were actually interested in Obama. No one was interested in Dukakis. There wasn't the same anger against Reagan that there was against George W. Bush.

    148. Re:Duh... by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      Except for the testimony of the UN weapons inspectors

      You should try reading the report right before the invasion. There wasn't a smoking gun, and the inspectors wanted more time, but they also noted that Saddam had to be dragged kicking and screaming the whole way to let the inspectors do their work. Saddam didn't do himself any favors by acting like he had something to hide.

      Of course, CIA operatives being smuggled into the UN weapons inspection teams didn't help either.

    149. Re:Duh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, no it shouldn't.

    150. Re:Duh... by Boona · · Score: 1

      The only way those ads stay on the site is because the readers click on them and purchase whatever product is on the other side. Otherwise whoever is placing ads there would not continue. So in a way, the ads being placed on the site do have some value to the clients there. I do agree that some sites go overkill and alienate their readers though. Not everyone is a good entrepreneur.

    151. Re:Duh... by Mathinker · · Score: 1

      Most academic journals are well-known within the fields they serve. They don't need additional "reputation points" by being cited in some student's footnotes.

      Most proprietary software which is pirated is also well-known. So what? Your post doesn't seem to address anything which I said.

      And now I take the opportunity to produce, as an example, the propensity of these large well-known software companies for producing free "lite" editions of their software. If your comment was 100% correct, they wouldn't bother to do this, would they? (BTW, journals do this also. Nature, for example, will occasionally distribute a hot article for free.)

      Somehow, I don't think you work in marketing.

    152. Re:Duh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeh, Yes Priminister is the bes t political satire ever written. You can find any issue covered.

      My personal favourite; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yhN1IDLQjo&feature=related

    153. Re:Duh... by yuna49 · · Score: 1

      Somehow, I don't think you work in marketing.

      Thanks be to God!

    154. Re:Duh... by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      True, an ad for something you want is a good ad, as long as it doesn't keep me from the content I surfed for. But most internet ads make me want to never buy the advertiser's product. Maybe it's just me.

  3. Oppinions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This is being presented as a fact, but its merely a oppinion based on insider information. No where it states any real numbers. Dont get me wrong, I dont agree with Murdoch's ways but that doesnt warrant factless bashing.

    1. Re:Oppinions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You must be knew hearr.

    2. Re:Oppinions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yes, factless bashing should never occur in proximity to a Murdoch media outlet...

    3. Re:Oppinions by jasmusic · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      And compared to competitors, it doesn't.

    4. Re:Oppinions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You must be counting the 'end is nigh' 'prophets' as competitors.

    5. Re:Oppinions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You seem to be following a media designed, rather than socially defined, version of the word fact.

    6. Re:Oppinions by delinear · · Score: 1

      My first thought on seeing this was that perhaps it's deliberate spin - leak some stories about the whole thing being a miserable failure, and then when subscription figures are anounced which are only quite disappointing, it suddenly looks like the scheme did much better than everyone thought. Maybe I'm too used to big media being able to control the story to instantly believe this one is genuine.

    7. Re:Oppinions by ElectricTurtle · · Score: 1

      How did some AC who can't even spell get modded so high for this? What, are we going to wait for them to issue a press release on how they are total failures? Insider information should be trusted unless there is a reason, some kind of evidence or precedent, not to trust it. I see no such evidence, and precedent says 'they are more likely than not to fail'. So, while skepticism is healthy, there is little to be gained in holding out for some more solid information, as that will only come when the failure itself has occurred. In the interim, there is no insight in saying 'well, we don't know absolutely for sure'.

      --
      I support the Slashcott and will not be reading or commenting from 2/10/14 to 2/17/14. Beta is steaming pile of dog shit
    8. Re:Oppinions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's also terribly written. Amongst many other things, who writes "2£" to mean £2? The contorted sentences read so uncomfortably that I feel like I'm developing dyslexia.

      I seem to recall a recent article in which a professor of English criticised students for using commas like parmesan cheese. I can see what he means now.

    9. Re:Oppinions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It does make you wonder, though. Why is it not being reported as a glowing success by Murdoch's media empire? Perhaps they want to let it run for a year or so before reporting on what a success it has been, and thus put all the critics firmly in their place.

  4. I am utterly surprised. by Arancaytar · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Who would have thought people would object to paying for information (or the closest Murdoch equivalent thereof; this guy owns Fox News) that is also provided for free?

    1. Re:I am utterly surprised. by ZeroExistenZ · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Who would have thought people would object to paying for information (or the closest Murdoch equivalent thereof; this guy owns Fox News) that is also provided for free?

      I don't think that's the only problem: internet news tends to be very flaky to push out "interesting" articles and it allows "on the fly editting" compared to a paper for example: unnecessary sensationalists "breaking news!" banners, reedits and a general lower quality of written content.

      So, people don't want to pay for sensationalist articles but would if the content would be, as you say, unique, solid and giving a decent added value: If I take the train and read the free Metro paper, log online and keep an eye on the newsfeeds from different RSS-feeds or different newspapers there's very cleary just some channels distributing the same "news" but depending on the papers "target crowd", reworded, restyled and reprioritized.

      The "online news" seems often just like a gossip magazine.

      --
      I think we can keep recursing like this until someone returns 1
    2. Re:I am utterly surprised. by Machtyn · · Score: 1

      No, I do believe that your cable/dish/whatever bill does pay for FoxNews if it is in your lineup (along with ad revenue, but the subscriber doesn't pay cash for that). It's funny, for everyone who rails on the guy for being conservative, he also owns the Fox network; which, for one example, runs the Simpsons - a fairly liberally minded social commentary show.

    3. Re:I am utterly surprised. by Zocalo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Actually I'd say all the evidence points to him being a Capitalist first and a Conservative second; The Simpsons and related merchandising makes a LOT of money for Fox after all.

      No wait, on second thoughts, make that "Old Fart out of touch with reality" first, then Capitalism and Conservatism...

      --
      UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
    4. Re:I am utterly surprised. by operagost · · Score: 1

      He's basically George Soros, except Soros is a liberal and doesn't actually produce anything.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    5. Re:I am utterly surprised. by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 1

      Fox News was designed to appeal to the American right wing . It doesn't necessarily correspond with Murdoch's personal politics, which are often opportunist.

    6. Re:I am utterly surprised. by jmorris42 · · Score: 1

      > Fox News was designed to appeal to the American right wing . It doesn't necessarily
      > correspond with Murdoch's personal politics, which are often opportunist.

      Ding! We have a winner. If I had to bet I'd put my money on Murdoch being an Obama supporter. But he is smart enough to spot an under served media market and fill it. Polling has shown the American populace to be about 60% conservative for decades. That is the mother of market niches and he still pretty much has it to himself.

      CNN's fall from uncontested #1 in news to their current woes of coming in behind CNN Headline News is entirely their own own stupidity. I grew up watching them. Can't stand em anymore. MSNBC is a joke, even with GE, Comcast and Microsoft's money behind them. Can't see how even a lefty can take those clowns seriously. Hell, they aren't even 24 hour, half their schedule is old reruns of Dateline and documentaries about queers in prison. With that competition is it any wonder that Fox News is running up the score in the ratings, often beating CNN+CNNHN+MSNBC? Do you expect em to do it lefty 'everyone is a winner and gets a trophy' style and slack off until the other guys catch up? Oh, and I hate FNS's primetime schedule too. The fricking Scientologist is the only one there that can actually conduct a decent interview.

      Ok, I'm done ranting now.

      --
      Democrat delenda est
    7. Re:I am utterly surprised. by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 1

      Of course, that just buys into the notion of media bias. Is it really too much to ask that coverage of the oil spill not focus on "poll numbers" and instead focus on oceanography, biology and regulatory failure?

    8. Re:I am utterly surprised. by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 1

      He's basically George Soros, except Soros is a liberal and doesn't actually produce anything.

      Are you criticizing Soros from a Marxist perspective?

  5. still early days by jaymz2k4 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    As much as I would love to see this fail, it's still early days in this projects inception, and I don't think they were expecting it to massively take off anyway. The paywall proper has only been in effect a few weeks, maybe better marketing and a better price point (I think £1 a day is too much for digitally delivered content, especially if the actual print edition is the same price!).

    An interesting piece by David Mitchell at the Guardian as to why he would like to see this succeed is worth a read.

    --
    jaymz
    1. Re:still early days by hedwards · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Lower prices would help, but that doesn't explain why the subscribers that get free access weren't going in their either. It's easy to say the price is too high, but when the people that have free access aren't using it either, you have to think that it's something else that's going on.

    2. Re:still early days by Rogerborg · · Score: 1

      Pfft, all that he's saying is that he's better than you because he gets paid to say what you've just parroted for free.

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    3. Re:still early days by dwandy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      David Mitchell badly misunderstands the news business which is scary as they seem to let him write for major news organizations.
      The news has always been free.
      The subscription cost (often barely) covered the printing and distribution costs. The Internet is the printer and distributor now, so this is essentially free. That is to say, we don't pay the paper any longer, we pay the ISP. The ads paid for news in the paper era, and Google's income and market cap lead me to believe that there is some potential for ad revenue on the internet.

      I question Mr. Mitchel's intellectual honesty in this matter. He suggests that if the pay-walls don't work we'll be left with amateur bloggers writing 'shit'. That is one massive false dichotomy and reveals his true paper-age view of the world. More of my time is spent on blogs than at traditional media outlets [ /. !! ].
      Will there continue to be a shake-up in the news business? Absolutely. More papers will die off, more editors, copy-guys etc will lose their jobs. That doesn't mean all we will be left with is amateur bloggers writing shit [there's enough of that here on /. , this post included :) ] . There will just be less papers reprinting the exact same article (sure there's pure mooches, but who really goes there? really?).
      The Internet is a disruptive force (I believe mostly for the better) that allows for more efficient dissemination of information. In other words, the news should get cheaper as it costs less to obtain it. Since the news was already free I can actually foresee a day when readers get paid to read a site - as in news will be cheaper than free. My justification for this? Commercial over-the-air radio pays it's listeners via contests, prizes and give-aways. Google now pays companies to use it's maps. Etc. etc. eTc.

      Free isn't a business model, but it has always been and will always be part of many effective and profitable business models. Stop getting hung up on the 'free' part and see the whole.

      --
      If you think imaginary property and real property are the same, when does your house become public domain?
    4. Re:still early days by nyctopterus · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Because having to fill in forms--any forms--just to look at something on a website is something people just will not do. I think what is really important is not how much they charge (although it does seem a little steep), but is the hassle factor, having to go an find your coupon or whatever is just a pain in the neck. Totally not worth the hassle for most people.

      Until there is a micro-payment system that's as easy as no payment at all (like say, the iTunes Store compared to your choice of P2P), there isn't going to be any headway in getting people to pay for this stuff.

    5. Re:still early days by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah probably something like

      'let me surf on over too... BAH login page. What was the login for this page again... Meh, who cares, where did I put the paper at'. or 'meh, let me go on over to the other 50 news sites that I do not have to remember a login for.'

      Also if you are bothering to get the paper itself. You probably do not really care about the online aspect of it. You like to pull out the paper and go thru it. Or it is a subscription to something like a doctors office or someone at a office who likes to toss one on the lunch table.

      I also heard it is something like 1 pound per day? That is a bit steep considering you can get physical news papers for much less if you have a subscription. Here in the states for newspapers you can get them as low as a quarter a day if you have a subscription. Putting it into perspective a british pound is worth what 1.5x a dollar on average?

      Lowering the price would go a long way. As he is competing with all the other free sites out there. As many newspapers/websites just regurgitate AP or Reuters anyway. So he better be putting in a bunch of value add.

    6. Re:still early days by paiute · · Score: 1

      The news has always been free.

      The subscription cost (often barely) covered the printing and distribution costs. The Internet is the printer and distributor now, so this is essentially free. That is to say, we don't pay the paper any longer, we pay the ISP.

      I don't pay for the news, I pay for the pipe the news comes down. In 1980, the paper owned the pipe (print plant, trucks, newsboxes) and I would pay $0.50 a day or so for the paper. In 2010, Comcast owns the pipe and I read the paper online for free (free in the sense that the paper gets no money directly from me for it). If today the paper tried to charge me even 1980s prices for online access (say $10/month or so), I would tell them to stick it and read the news somewhere else.

      The paper lost control of the pipe, and therefore lost control of the revenue stream. So why didn't some paper buy or become an ISP in between 1980 and 2010?

      --
      If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
    7. Re:still early days by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't find it far fetched that they don't value the content enough to bother with stuff like logging in and similar. Just like people tend to avoid reporting bugs if they are required to create an account somewhere.

    8. Re:still early days by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Kind of interesting that so many people are linking to that David Mitchell piece. How many people do you think would have read it if he had published that article behind a paywall?

    9. Re:still early days by clone53421 · · Score: 1

      £1 per day, or £2 per week for the website alone – no clue what the actual paper subscription costs. Does anybody know? Also, is it weekly or daily?

      --
      Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
    10. Re:still early days by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's easy to say the price is too high, but when the people that have free access aren't using it either, you have to think that it's something else that's going on.

      To spend the effort to register is too much cost when you can just go to the next google headline of the same story

    11. Re:still early days by Ryan+Hemage · · Score: 1

      £1 Monday to Friday, £2 for the Sunday Times, about £1.50-ish for the Times on Saturday.

    12. Re:still early days by clone53421 · · Score: 1

      So they figure they’re giving you a full week’s worth of news for only the price of the Sunday edition of the paper. Good deal, no?

      Or you could look at it differently. For £2, you can get:
      (a) week-long access to the online edition of the paper
      (b) week-long access to the online edition plus a physical copy of each Sunday edition

      Yeah, they want you to pay the same amount and get less. Not seeming like such a good deal anymore...

      --
      Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
    13. Re:still early days by xaxa · · Score: 1

      The Times is daily. The paper version costs £1, which is similar to comparable newspapers. A subscription seems to be about 90p per issue, including delivery.

      There are cheap daily newspapers but they're tabloids. The Sun is 20p, including Page 3. The Daily Star is only 10p, which gets you even more topless women and even less actual news.

    14. Re:still early days by ErikTheRed · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I actually took a "free trial" of the web site (hey, I like Jeremy Clarkson's columns), and there's a lot more to it than the paywall. They also did a complete site redesign, and it's hideous - I couldn't find a damned thing on the new site, and actually reading stories involved some bizarre CSS windowing. The entire site is basically a CSS version of "Flashturbation" (CSSturbation?) - a bunch of developers showing off how technically clever they are in the process of making a crap product.

      That being said, £1 a week would be much too high, even if the site didn't suck sweaty rhino ass.... £1 pound a day is flat-out insane.

      --

      Help save the critically endangered Blue Iguana
    15. Re:still early days by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Excellent point about forms. These publishers are probably shooting themselves in the foot asking people to fill out long forms in addition to requiring registration. They want the demographic information and the fees. These days, you can't have both.

      I have mixed feelings about requiring people pay a few to read an online newspapers. I'm mostly against it, as somebody who has run a free alternative news site for 15 years. I saw this problem coming in the late 1990s when I worked for a major publisher while running my independent news site. The publisher was trying to figure out how to make it's online content available for free and for a fee. The readers of my news site were balking at requests to donate money. They wanted everything to be free. We've never run advertising and still get donations from our readers, which is interesting since many of them are poor working class people.

      I'd like to see Murdoch fail, in part because he is a greedy capitalist, but also because he is the evil person behind Fox News, which does so much to sow division and hate within the U.S.

      I firmly believe that publishers have everything to gain by making their content available for free. But I also can understand the need to pay employees. It would be good if newspapers could stay afloat, so they can provide jobs and cover local news. Doing local news reporting is expensive and something that blogs cannot do well.

      Newspapers have to get used to the fact that they aren't going to be the exclusive, profitable monopolies they used to be. Craigslist, with its free ads, has done more to hurt newspapers than free content has done. Newspapers will have to slim down and become news organizations, not publishing businesses.

    16. Re:still early days by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or all the reviews say its total shit DRM crap that's not worth logging into especially if you have the superior paper version. That could be a reason.

    17. Re:still early days by TheSync · · Score: 1

      The news has always been free.
      The subscription cost (often barely) covered the printing and distribution costs.

      My understanding is that this differs by country. Japan, for example, has more expensive newspapers with less advertising.

    18. Re:still early days by LarrySDonald · · Score: 1

      Admittedly, there is a possibility that some of the older demographic may decide that perhaps it would be kind of handy assuming it's really simple and pretty cheap. The ones used to paying for all media. But lets face it, the 20-30 crowd is debating about if *TV* is worth it. Paying for a newspaper seems like a quaint habit you saw your grandpa do once and you might go with if you need the local classifieds in hardcopy and the net version was missing or annoying.

    19. Re:still early days by colinrichardday · · Score: 1

      In other words, the news should get cheaper as it costs less to obtain it.

      It may cost you less to read it, but did it cost the newspaper less to obtain. Does the internet make investigative journalism cheaper, or does it merely allow the results to be disseminated more cheaply?

    20. Re:still early days by Kjella · · Score: 1

      The news has always been free. The subscription cost (often barely) covered the printing and distribution costs. The Internet is the printer and distributor now, so this is essentially free. That is to say, we don't pay the paper any longer, we pay the ISP. The ads paid for news in the paper era, and Google's income and market cap lead me to believe that there is some potential for ad revenue on the internet.

      But before the Internet, my choice of news was essentially the choice of newspapers at the news stand which created an oligopoly that gave profit. Also there was a steady pulse to the news, the expression "that's yesterday's news" pretty much says it all about how far you'd get just copying what the other papers wrote about.

      Today, neither is true. Today I have an almost limitless number of information sources, and while they don't copy the article text they copy the news quickly and shamelessly. That quickly drives the value of those news down towards zero, The non-generic news is no longer just to stand out from the crowd, they really have to be money makers all of them to turn the wheels which happens only in a few niches. Reality is that if you sum up all the non-investigative news of world happenings, product announcements/reviews, politics, sports, culture, weather forcast, tv program, crossword puzzles and all else that fill up a news paper, you get quite a lot. Real investigative news is expensive to make, and how many really care? I suspect they're going the way of the filler songs in the iTunes age - people just buy the hits, the big easy stuff like write up some general BS about the world cup in soccer for example which they've done hundreds of and most just speculation, opinion and random statistics. If you can't increase the price, lower the cost. It's the reality show version of news.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    21. Re:still early days by godel_56 · · Score: 1

      The paywall proper has only been in effect a few weeks, maybe better marketing and a better price point (I think £1 a day is too much for digitally delivered content, especially if the actual print edition is the same price!). An interesting piece by David Mitchell at the Guardian as to why he would like to see this succeed is worth a read.

      A comment to the Guardian piece by "Scurra" sums it up for me:

      (Extract) "The drawback is the part about paying for everything else that I don't want. That's the "piracy" argument in a nutshell. There's good evidence that a lot of things that that are downloaded "illegally" are not "lost sales" because the downloader often ends up not wanting whatever it is. But it also tends to show that if they do want it, they often go out and pay money for it properly. Now I agree that part of the problem is that somehow you need to find and then build an audience - but once you've found them, they are generally willing to pay. It's just that finding the best way to pay is proving extremely elusive in the world of "print" media when translated online.

      Although as the piece notes, charging even a nominal fee tends to persuade people to value something. As a result, "micropayments" may indeed be a possibility, except that no-one seems to have figured out how to square this with possible privacy issues (since it's far more risky than flat credit card payments because of the sheer volume involved.) "

    22. Re:still early days by MrSteveSD · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The other point is that many governments like to fund their own state news outlets. There are many of these with perhaps the BBC being the most famous. Even if all the private news outlets disappear, people will just fall back onto the BBC, Russia Today etc. When it comes to certain news stories they like to peddle their own propaganda of course, but that is the case with most of the media anyway.

  6. It's not the paywall that's failed by petes_PoV · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's doing exactly what it was designed to (although making it hard for legitimate subscribers to access the content sounds like it needs tweaking). The crashing failure is the business model. What Murdoch seems to have not understood is that while he can put up the price of the paper product and only lose a small proportion of his customers, sothe difference between a price of 50p and 51p is small, but on the internet the difference between 0p and 1p is huge.

    --
    politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
    1. Re:It's not the paywall that's failed by myocardialinfarction · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Here's the calculation: All of the BBC's content (TV,radio,news): £145.50 pa The Times and Sunday Times: £104 pa On a free market basis Rupees business model doesn't work. But business model inclues political interference in the financing of the BBC, on the basis that its competition is unfair. _On the contrary_. We in the UK pay for the BBC willingly because it is worth the price, and we don't for the Times because it's, well, who cares? The WSJ, FT and Economist are worth paying for to the folks in those industries. The Times is just some more crap from a Murdoch company.

    2. Re:It's not the paywall that's failed by TheRaven64 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I stopped paying the license fee over the BBC's decision to use DRM for its online offerings. I hadn't had a TV for about a year at that point, but I thought that the license fee was worth the money to support news.bbc.co.uk - it worked out cheaper than a daily newspaper, and the content is generally better. I still do, but I don't want any of my money going to fund DRM, so I'm not paying the fee (and, because I only watch TV shows after they are broadcast, on iPlayer or on DVD, I'm not legally required to). If they ditch the DRM on iPlayer, I'll start paying it again.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    3. Re:It's not the paywall that's failed by owlnation · · Score: 1

      We in the UK pay for the BBC willingly because it is worth the price, and we don't for the Times because it's, well, who cares?

      That's as far from the truth as could ever be. We pay for the BBC because it's a legal requirement of owning a TV set. There is no choice involved whatsoever (other than not owning a TV set, even if you only watch other channels).

      Many people, probably most, would not pay for the BBC given the choice.

    4. Re:It's not the paywall that's failed by Pelekophori · · Score: 1

      We in the UK pay for the BBC willingly because it is worth the price

      Don't presume to speak for all of us in the UK. You might pay for the BBC willingly, but I'd rather not if I had a choice. However I'm coerced into doing so even if I just want to watch their competitors.

      The BBC's latest theory is that I am obliged to pay them a license fee if I merely watch a video on my PC which is being streamed live (by any broadcaster/website) because that is covered by the 1949 act which established the license fee. They haven't tried to enforce that one yet but they are positioning themselves to maintain their rentseeking position if/when the traditional broadcast TV audience declines even more significantly.

      --
      The best ideas are common property
    5. Re:It's not the paywall that's failed by Vintermann · · Score: 2, Interesting

      We pay for the BBC because it's a legal requirement of owning a TV set.

      Bah, by British brother in law soldered shut the antenna plug on his TV a while back, to save some license money when he wasn't using it.

      --
      xkcd is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.
    6. Re:It's not the paywall that's failed by myocardialinfarction · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The legal element of the license fee is mitigated solely by the public service element of the BBC. I'm not claiming to like giving money to the likes of Jonathan Ross, Chris Moyles or any other folks I never pay any attention to, but I would gladly pay that fee just for the BBC nature unit to continue, let alone the rest of the mountain of stuff I have gotten from them over the years. It's far from perfect, a lot of it is annoying, irrelevant or utter crap, but the point I was attempting to make is that it's better value than the Times, considering not only your consumption of it but also that of the rest of the people of the UK (or world).

    7. Re:It's not the paywall that's failed by JackDW · · Score: 1

      Ah, but plenty of people in the UK pay for Sky TV. It isn't cheap, and it's "more crap from a Murdoch company", but many think it's worth it. Look for satellite dishes on houses as you travel through the UK; they're very common. Although you can get free to air programmes via satellite, strangely the dish design is almost always the sort "given away" for "free" with a Sky TV receiver (and minimum subscription).

      So it's not as if charging for "Murdoch crap" is always doomed to fail. Murdoch has done very well out of charging for his "crap". It is so crap that many people will pay twice - once for the BBC, which they may never watch, and again for the Sky TV subscription. And most of the Sky channels have adverts, so (in a way) they're actually paying three times. Presumably this is the sort of response he is hoping for, and if the price is right, maybe it will even make money one day.

      Disclaimer, lest I am mistaken for a shill. I don't have Sky TV. Had it once, was poor value for money. I'm thinking of dropping the TV licence too, same reason.

      --
      You're an immobile computer, remember?
    8. Re:It's not the paywall that's failed by Rogerborg · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Bingo. I'd possibly pay for Radio 4, in order to keep it ad free, but the rest of the bunch of Stalinist luvvies can swing on my knob.

      The thing that's really boiling my piss at the moment is that much of the (non disposable) programming is now timed to fit on commercial channels. Since there's no commercial breaks in the middle of each program (as opposed to the 15 seconds of DVR skipping that I have to do on other channels), that means there can be upwards of 10 minute of filler in between one program ending and the next starting. It's still advertising, it's just ads for the BBC, and the bit that hacks me off are that they're expensive, self indulgent arty-wankery ads paid for by my Goddamn license money. I'd rather watch a test card than a bunch of CGI fairies, thanks all the same.

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    9. Re:It's not the paywall that's failed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He was lucky to get away with it - if that went to court, he'd probably lose.

      Now if you don't have a TV at all, and you've written to TV Licensing twice asking if it's OK to cancel your DD, and you've received a response (thus proving they've read it) saying "we'll get back to you," and nothing else in six months - well, then you're probably safe. I really thought we'd have an inspector round once a week for a few months, but it seems Capita can't even deal with their post effectively, never mind run inspections effectively.

      I've also complained to the BBC about putting auto-play live streams on "news" pages. I don't think they'd realised that could put someone in jail by accident - quite apart from the UI fail. It theoretically could. I haven't seen a page guilty of it since, interestingly, so maybe it was a worthwhile email - did get quite a sensible reply.

    10. Re:It's not the paywall that's failed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      So I bet you don't have any Sony appliances in your house, never buy new DVDs or BluRays, refuse to watch ColumbiaTristar movies, or recent MGM ones too, because that would be funding DRM. An in this Murdoch based storyline, that includes anything by Fox as well. Those DVDs you watch? DRMed. Hypocrite much?

      I pay the license fee, and people who weasel out of it on a technicality piss me off. You admittedly watch TV, you admittedly enjoy the output of the BBC yet put two fingers up to paying for it while the rest of us do. Shame on you.

    11. Re:It's not the paywall that's failed by Geeky · · Score: 1

      Exactly. I wish they'd cut the entertainment stuff - there's no need for it, it's well covered by commercial channels if you want it.

      News, quality documentaries, indie films noone else would bother with and minority sports events, with a few major sports events that are deemed culturally important. That's all the BBC should do, IMO.

      --
      Sigs are so 1990s. No way would I be seen dead with one.
    12. Re:It's not the paywall that's failed by NJRoadfan · · Score: 1

      The thing that's really boiling my piss at the moment is that much of the (non disposable) programming is now timed to fit on commercial channels.

      So they reformatted programming for eventual rebroadcast on BBC America, which is supported by advertising and cable TV subscriptions in the US.

    13. Re:It's not the paywall that's failed by Budenny · · Score: 1

      "We in the UK pay for the BBC willingly because it is worth the price..."

      No we don't. We pay for the BBC because if we want to watch any TV, Sky, any commercial channels, we are obliged by law to subscribe to the BBC, or get hauled up before the courts.

      I would still subscribe if I had a choice. But don't tell me that 'we in the UK' do so willingly. Its the state broadcaster, the law consequently gives it a special status unlike any other broadcaster, and we pay because its legally obligatory if we want any TV at all.

      My view is that this is completely wrong. Not because I dislike the BBC, on the contrary, I'm a great admirer. Because forcing people to subscribe to the state broadcaster, or any broadcaster, in order to be allowed to subscribe to other broadcasters, is wrong.

    14. Re:It's not the paywall that's failed by TheReal_sabret00the · · Score: 1

      We in the UK pay for the BBC willingly because it is worth the price

      No it isn't. I'd rather not pay the fee at all. The only BBC show I've watched since paying my fee is Top Gear. That's once a week and it doesn't last the whole year. On top of that, the BBC pimps the show off to stations like Dave and Blighty. How is that worth my money. The only good thing about the fee is that some of it goes towards Channel 4 who do actually produce content I want and watch but even then, I watch most of that on 4oD anyway. The license fee is antiquated and should be abolished. Let's see how the BBC far when they have to balance their books.

    15. Re:It's not the paywall that's failed by VJ42 · · Score: 2, Informative

      He was lucky to get away with it - if that went to court, he'd probably lose.

      Not true - You only need TV Licence if you watch or record TV as it's being broadcast; if you only use it to play XBOX\Wii or just to watch DVDs, then you don't need a licence. TV licensing FAQ:

      --
      If I have nothing to hide, you have no reason to search me
    16. Re:It's not the paywall that's failed by delinear · · Score: 1

      It's not so much the owning as the proving you don't use. For a few years I didn't watch TV - I had a set (it was a rented house and the TV belonged to the owner), so I wrapped it in a blanket and dumped it in the garage. Originally I left it in situ in the living room, but then the inspectors came poking around, peering through the windows to see if there was a TV set (the assumption seems to be if you own one that you must watch it) and we got a letter querying this. The easiest thing to do was to remove the thing instead of trying to argue with them. Of course, soldering up the ports is one (perhaps little extreme?) way of proving you don't watch it, but even if you do that and it's still on display, you have to go through the hassle of contacting them and explaining the situation and waiting in to demonstrate and if they still don't believe you, you get to argue about it in court. I don't begrudge paying for the licence at all when I'm using the TV, I think the BBC is a good idea and generally provides some of the better quality shows in this country, but I wish they didn't have this automatic assumption of guilt if you genuinely don't own a TV.

    17. Re:It's not the paywall that's failed by N1AK · · Score: 1

      We pay for the BBC because it's a legal requirement of owning a TV set.
      It's a requirement of receiving live broadcast tv. As the owner of two tv's and a regular user of iPlayer (no live broadcast) to watch BBC shows I am getting on perfectly well and legally without a license.

    18. Re:It's not the paywall that's failed by Risen888 · · Score: 1

      We in the UK pay for the BBC willingly

      That's funny, I thought you paid for the Beeb because it's part of your taxes.

      --
      Hey, I finally got my first freak! Took you long enough!
    19. Re:It's not the paywall that's failed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I did the same calculation and came to the opposite conclusion. With the BBC producing so little watchable TV these days and the BBC News web site, with a couple of notable exceptions, not going into the depth I like I was spending far more time reading The Times and Sunday Times than BBC TV and web site combined. On a cost per unit time The Times came out ahead of the BBC for me. I had almost resigned myself to paying for continued access to The Times web site. The thing that stopped me was the site redesign, launched at the same time as the paywall. Previously there was an RSS feed and information-dense index pages allowing me to quickly determine what I was interested in and get to it. The RSS feed has been chopped and the designers have had their way with the site, prettying it up but burying many of the articles deeper down the page hierarchy. It was as if the site only had half the content after the change and finding it was a chore. I gave up reading the site before the end of the free period. Maybe it was for the best. My news addiction takes up too much of my life.

    20. Re:It's not the paywall that's failed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      51/50 = 1.01 times more
      1/0 = infinity

    21. Re:It's not the paywall that's failed by pbhj · · Score: 1

      Ditto but not really for DRM reasons.

      I also used to read The Times [of London] but only really for the letters pages and some major headlines. Now I use Google News, but I still miss The Times letters as an indicator of British views.

    22. Re:It's not the paywall that's failed by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      No we don't.

      Oh, my mistake. I though you lived in a democracy. If you (collective, not individual) don't want to do it, why not change the law? Because it seems to an outsider that people like it or it wouldn't be that way.

    23. Re:It's not the paywall that's failed by the_womble · · Score: 1

      You do realise that the BBC was forced to use DRM in order to reduce "unfair" competition to commercial media?

    24. Re:It's not the paywall that's failed by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2, Informative

      No, I don't realise that at all. The main reason that I don't realise that is that I was involved with the OSC's complaint and the regulator's consultation on the issue, and that was never once raised as a concern by the BBC or the regulator. Presumably because you just made it up.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  7. History repeating by Wowsers · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The Times / Sunday Times used to have a paid archive on CD-ROM circa 1992. On the internet, there were no articles over about a week old IIRC, the articles went into those CD-ROM archives. There was no great demand for that either, so the whole concept of charging got ditched and they got advertisers to relaunch a free expanded website.

    I wonder that now that it's a paid for website, how the advertisers feel about the massive drop in people being able to view their ads (assuming you're not crunching the ads with plug-ins for the likes of Firefox).

    --
    Take Nobody's Word For It.
    1. Re:History repeating by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The British Library newspaper archive does free access to the papers search and index and they you can pay for a day's access when you can download as much as you want.

  8. Totally Unexpected Of The Day by Crypto+Gnome · · Score: 5, Insightful

    In other news - water is (usually) wet, deserts are (usually) dry, and The TaxMan Cometh!

    The world is FULL of idiots.

    Even rich ones.

    Lemme give the man a (free, even) clue: On the one side, he wants to *get paid* for all the Free News his "papers" are putting onto "the web". On the other hand he completely ignores all the FREE EYEBALLS that search engines like Google bring to his website.

    While incessantly whining about people who 'want something for nothing', what he actually does is treat "free eyeball traffic" as being "worth nothing". Small Wonder His Website No Longer Gets Eyeballs.

    Murdock: HEY GOOGLE, STOP SENDING EYEBALLS TO MY WEBSITE without paying me for my content
    Google: You had me at "stop sending eyeballs to my website" - all you had to do was ask.

    --
    Visit CryptoGnome in his home.
    1. Re:Totally Unexpected Of The Day by AHuxley · · Score: 1
      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    2. Re:Totally Unexpected Of The Day by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 4, Funny

      HOLY SHIT DUDE! Most people use one or two methods of emphasis, but you use *three*! You, sir, are a legend!

      --
      You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
    3. Re:Totally Unexpected Of The Day by DMorritt · · Score: 0

      He will no doubt allow (even optimise for, like many other pay to view sites) the Google bots access to his content (if he doesn't already) to ensure decent search engine rankings though.

      kinda: I'll do my best to get a good ranking, but don't send me traffic unless it pays for my stuff. Most other businesses are happy to pay for that privilege.

      IMO, Google should penalise sites that allow their bots access to content, but serve different content to regular users, since this is *not* what people will be getting it is very misleading.

    4. Re:Totally Unexpected Of The Day by dissy · · Score: 1

      He will no doubt allow (even optimise for, like many other pay to view sites) the Google bots access to his content (if he doesn't already) to ensure decent search engine rankings though.

      On one hand, Murdock has already threatened to pressed charges against Google to stop indexing his website.
      Yes, the very same website that Murdock gave permission to Google to index first (via robots.txt) He isn't known for his smarts in this area after all ;}

      So because he is pretty dumb when it comes to 'customers eyes' as a product, you Could be correct... It would not be the first time he said something should be, and did the opposite. But I would not think he would allow that after everything that has gone down already.

      Plus, after being threatened with lawsuits, I don't think the choice is in Murdock's hands anymore if his websites get indexed at Google. They could just preemptively remove him from the web search results like his lawsuit threat demands.

      I do fully agree with you on sites returning different content to Google's official bot and everything else though.
      In fact I would Love a Google preference option to have my personal search results adjusted so all such websites 'google bot' results are ignored. Perhaps I will send Google that suggestion (If you haven't already) one never knows what you'll get ;}

    5. Re:Totally Unexpected Of The Day by clone53421 · · Score: 4, Funny

      I count four: *asterisks*, bold, Title Case, and ALL CAPITALS. Five if you count permutations of more than one (Bold Title Case).

      --
      Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
    6. Re:Totally Unexpected Of The Day by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 1

      Whoa! I completely missed that!

      --
      You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
    7. Re:Totally Unexpected Of The Day by lullabud · · Score: 1

      Me too! That guy is _TOTALLY_ emphatic!

    8. Re:Totally Unexpected Of The Day by _Sprocket_ · · Score: 1

      ...

    9. Re:Totally Unexpected Of The Day by mcgrew · · Score: 0

      Lemme give the man a (free, even) clue
      he completely ignores all the FREE EYEBALLS

      Haven't you heard? He's convinced that free==worthless, as so many other fools are convinced of. A few of these fools are even at slashdot (and I'll bet one of them mods this comment down)

    10. Re:Totally Unexpected Of The Day by ChinggisK · · Score: 1

      Quotation marks are also "used".

    11. Re:Totally Unexpected Of The Day by nyri · · Score: 1

      I count four: *asterisks*, bold, Title Case, and ALL CAPITALS. Five if you count permutations of more than one (Bold Title Case).

      You both missed the usage of peculiar words:

      The TaxMan Cometh

    12. Re:Totally Unexpected Of The Day by clone53421 · · Score: 1

      I wasn’t counting them because quotation marks really aren’t used so much for emphasis as they are to set something off as a distinct thing. I suppose that could be used as a form of emphasis but it didn’t really strike me as one when I read his comment.

      If we are going to count them, we might as well count ‘single’ and “double” quotes as two distinct ways (and count parentheses and exclamation marks as well!).

      --
      Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
    13. Re:Totally Unexpected Of The Day by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Shit man, I don't think I really got his point. Where are the italics?!

    14. Re:Totally Unexpected Of The Day by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      HOLY SHIT DUDE! Most people use one or two methods of emphasis, but you use *three*! You, sir, are a legend!

      I agree!

    15. Re:Totally Unexpected Of The Day by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Seven: Add InterCapitalization and "quotes." (Some of the quotes are used normally, though.)
      Do exclamation marks count as an eighth?

    16. Re:Totally Unexpected Of The Day by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      IMO, Google should penalise sites that allow their bots access to content, but serve different content to regular users, since this is *not* what people will be getting it is very misleading.

      I believe they do exactly that. IIRC, they spanked "experts exchange" for that sort of scumminess awhile back which is why you can scroll down to the bottom and see the results without signing in if you go in through a google link.

      When I find pages that don't play fair, I report em

    17. Re:Totally Unexpected Of The Day by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      all of which are totally wrong!

    18. Re:Totally Unexpected Of The Day by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fuck Everything! We're doing 5 methods of *EMPHASIS*!

  9. And it won't even work if everyone does it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    If it costs to read news, people go to competitor's website. But even if all the major news sources began doing that, they wouldn't get the subscribers they want. There would be a few bloggers who would subscribe and post (even) more dramatic, (even) more provocative and (even) less accurate descriptions of the events and people would read those blogs. If the subcribtion costs would skyrocket, even the bloggers wouldn't subscribe.

    I think that the best shot for traditional news media is to take advantage this: People want to pay for what they appreciate. I wouldn't want to buy an expensive subscribe to a magazine from which I read one or two articles a day on most days. But let's say that each article had "Thanks" button that costs 15 cents to click? I think I would click that pretty often. (Perhaps a drop down menu to donate even larger sums to some articles) Add some "20 cents to comment" cost and - if it rocks your boat - a bit of social media like qualities so you can see what articles your friends, favorite politicians, etc. saw as worth supporting.

    1. Re:And it won't even work if everyone does it by icebraining · · Score: 2, Informative

      Seems perfect for Flattr.

    2. Re:And it won't even work if everyone does it by MattBD · · Score: 1

      Well, there's one pretty decent news site that won't go behind a paywall - the BBC. They're not perfect, but they are a lot more impartial than most of Murdoch's awful rags, and will remain free because of the way the BBC is funded by license payers. If people are going to pay for other content it has to be better enough to be worth paying extra for, and Murdoch sure as hell can't provide that.

  10. You Can't Cite Wolff on Anything Murdoch!! by RobotRunAmok · · Score: 5, Informative

    Oh, maaaan, Slashdot, this is so, so, wrong. Lookit:

    Michael Wolff was paid a huge sum to write a bio of Murdoch a few years back, "The Man Who Owns the News." It ended up becoming the "Heaven's Gate" of publishing: Wolff was paid a million dollars in advance, and it sold horribly. As a result, Wolff became a pariah amongst publishers, and he has had a jones against Murdoch ever since. He started "Newser" -- an online news aggregation site, sort of a Drudge Report, but with pictures and short summaries written by semi-literate snarky hipster interns -- specifically as a response to the "old-fashioned" way that Murdoch did business. Wolff writes a column there daily; like, every third or fourth one is some screed, equal parts vitriolic and smug, predicting failure for everything Murdoch is involved with. If Murdoch issued a statement saying that "Gravity is a Good Thing," Wolff would find some way to either argue against it or poke fun at it.

    Of course, it doesn't make matters any better that Wolff had an affair with one of those aforementioned interns a few years back that was made public -- and kept public, arguably far longer than an extra-marital affair involving a "C"-level journalist should have been -- by the Murdoch-owned NY Post. Wolff's wife (a divorce lawyer!! (he's obviously not the sharpest pen in the inkwell)) left him and took him to the cleaners.

    Nobody who knows anything about Murdoch or NYC journalism takes anything Wolff has to say seriously when he's in "Murdoch mode." Kind of like asking the Sheriff of Nottingham to give a measured opinion about that guy "Robin Hood."

    1. Re:You Can't Cite Wolff on Anything Murdoch!! by Eunuchswear · · Score: 5, Funny

      Nobody who knows anything about Murdoch or NYC journalism takes anything Wolff has to say seriously when he's in "Murdoch mode." Kind of like asking the Sheriff of Nottingham to give a measured opinion about that guy "Robin Hood."

      You compared Rupert Murdoch to Robin Hood?

      Wow.

      --
      Watch this Heartland Institute video
    2. Re:You Can't Cite Wolff on Anything Murdoch!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      i'm sorry i found you interesting and informative through that all but then for some unfathomable reason you decided to spend all that kudos on likening rupert murdoch to robin hood...

      really!?

    3. Re:You Can't Cite Wolff on Anything Murdoch!! by osgeek · · Score: 0, Troll

      Of course he is. He takes dirt from rich Democrats and gives the scoop to poor Republicans.

    4. Re:You Can't Cite Wolff on Anything Murdoch!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's a valid analogy! It's like asking that guy Skeletor about He-Man.

    5. Re:You Can't Cite Wolff on Anything Murdoch!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nobody who knows anything about Murdoch or NYC journalism takes anything Wolff has to say seriously when he's in "Murdoch mode." Kind of like asking the Sheriff of Nottingham to give a measured opinion about that guy "Robin Hood."

      You compared Rupert Murdoch to Robin Hood?

      Wow.

      You mean Robin Hoodwinker right?

    6. Re:You Can't Cite Wolff on Anything Murdoch!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      But in this version,, Murdock plays the part of the Sheriff of Nottingham..

    7. Re:You Can't Cite Wolff on Anything Murdoch!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, RobotRunAmok, that looks like Glenn Beck's sig...

    8. Re:You Can't Cite Wolff on Anything Murdoch!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No he did not. The comparison involves two other agents as well. Wolff's *opinion* on Murdoch was compared to the Sherrif's *opinion* on Hood.

    9. Re:You Can't Cite Wolff on Anything Murdoch!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      your comment needs to be put to the top of the page as a disclaimer. folks, whatever your opinions on Rupert Murdoch getting news about him from michael wolff is a joke. wolff (in trying to sell his book i guess) has claimed (among other things) that Rupe is selling The Times and The Sunday Times in London. is going to buy the New York Times and is buying Twitter. wolff hasnt got a clue.

  11. Remember though... by Nick+Fel · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ...that they probably only need a fraction of their former readers to subscribe to make the same money they were making on advertising. I doubt literally 'nobody' has subscribed and I think it's going to take a bit longer to see if they've hit the magic number where they match/surpass their previous earnings.

    1. Re:Remember though... by ledow · · Score: 1

      The Times (£1 / £2) has a circulation of approximately 502,436 (March 2010).
      The Metro (a free newspaper distributed *by itself* only in major towns and supported completely by advertising) has a circulation of 1,361,306 (October 2008, but representative of modern figures too). Three times as much, and that's only because every place that distributes them is normally empty by about 8:30am.

      The Metro is free to read online, too. The Times costs £1 a day to read online.

      I would say that points to The Times not using its advertising properly. It *might* make a lot more money now. I think, however, that it is missing out on a *huge* potential business that others are taking advantage of. And mostly their cost-savings from not having to have more than a single server running The Times website now means they are more profitable than they were before. Doesn't mean they *are* profitable on their online ventures at all. I think that, basically, it's a cost-cutting measure because they don't know how to exploit the web and want to stay in the dead-tree game forever. Shame that the rest of the world won't see it that way.

  12. Lower prices by barista · · Score: 1

    Maybe if he lowered the prices, he might get more customers. Even though I'm in the US, I've read timesonline on occasion, but the four dollars a week is a bit too much.

  13. Inevitable Future by smitty777 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    So I'm expecting the usual reaction from the Slashdot audience cheering the gloriously free nature of information on the net and our ability to stick it to the man. And don't get me wrong, I'm a (free) news junkie myself. But how sustainable is the current paradigm? . I'm asking a sincere question, as the journalists really do have to get paid eventually. Advertisers? Probably not with the click rates the way they are nowadays. I don't see any any alternative to Murdoch's vision - other than some of the micropayment schemes that have been proposed. As the media outlets adjust to the new world and figure out ways to regulate, it's hard to see how this vision is anything but inevitable.

    --
    "Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish"
    Albert Einstein
    1. Re:Inevitable Future by MalHavoc · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I'm also wondering what people would consider something they'd pay for. For me, a physical paper is not about the convenience (lugging a folded wad of paper with me is not convenient), it's about the ritual in the morning. But I'm only willing to go through that ritual, the act of sitting down with a paper and a cup of coffee, on mornings where I can enjoy it.

      So, is the other side, the electronic side, something we'd pay for if it had a difference convenience factor? Are people less included to subscribe to whole electronic papers, but perhaps more inclined to pay for specific columnists, photographers, or sections of papers? For example, as someone who lives in Eastern Canada, I'm not really interested in the fact that the Globe and Mail does restaurant reviews of places in Toronto. But, if there was customizable content, maybe I'd pay for that instead.

      Then again, I can get decent local coverage via the CBC's New Brunswick section, and that's free.

      Like the parent, I agree that journalists and photographers need to get paid by someone. But even if you lived off of freely submitted content, you'd have to pay to maintain the infrastructure for your electronic version. As a FOSS developer, I'd love to be able to ask my grocery store to let me eat for free because I give away what I do :)

    2. Re:Inevitable Future by osgeek · · Score: 1

      The news will be just fine with advertising. Sure, print newspapers that just take AP feeds and provide very little added value will continue to be in trouble, but does anyone see a decline in the amount or quality of news?

      If anything I think that the trend has been toward a dramatic increase in availability of good mainstream news since the advent of the Internet. Additionally, lots of niche information that would have been available only through subscriptions to Scientific American or other more specialized publications is available easily and for free.

      Then, for very well-reported and unique niche information like you get through The Wall Street Journal, Consumer Reports, and the Economist -- paywalls seem to be working quite well.

    3. Re:Inevitable Future by williamhb · · Score: 1

      So I'm expecting the usual reaction from the Slashdot audience cheering the gloriously free nature of information on the net and our ability to stick it to the man. And don't get me wrong, I'm a (free) news junkie myself. But how sustainable is the current paradigm? . I'm asking a sincere question, as the journalists really do have to get paid eventually. Advertisers? Probably not with the click rates the way they are nowadays. I don't see any any alternative to Murdoch's vision - other than some of the micropayment schemes that have been proposed. As the media outlets adjust to the new world and figure out ways to regulate, it's hard to see how this vision is anything but inevitable.

      The most likely alternative is that the newspaper ditches the online edition completely and focuses on mobiles, iPads, Kindles, and the like for its electronic delivery, where there is a healthy and rapidly growing market in paid-for content, and which are probably more relevant to the kinds of customers who buy newspapers anyway (commuters reading on the train, etc). The strategy they are not going to do is decide "oh well, since the pay-wall doesn't work we should just make it free and pour millions of pounds a year into a website we can't make any money from". Murdoch doesn't stick with sacred cows like "all newspapers must have a Web edition". He was the media baron that moved Fleet Street out of Fleet Street. And since timesonline.co.uk only had a small market share anyway (vs the print newspaper's dominance of the broadsheet market) I doubt he thinks timesonline would be a big loss anyway.

    4. Re:Inevitable Future by owlnation · · Score: 1

      As the media outlets adjust to the new world and figure out ways to regulate, it's hard to see how this vision is anything but inevitable.

      It cannot be. There's a massive logic gap.

      If it is possible -- and it is -- for a TV network to raise billions in advertising dollars, even with a tiny market-share for some shows (comparable to the readership of a large newspaper), then it MUST be possible to gain enough revenue from advertising to sustain a newspaper. A newspaper has far far far less overheads than a TV channel.

      Either TV advertising is VASTLY overrated (and it must be, to some degree at least). Or content providers and advertisers are VASTLY misunderstanding Internet advertising. Or likely -- a combination of both.

      If you can fund shows that cost a million plus dollars per episode, reaching around 5 million people, then you can DEFINITELY fund a national newspaper with 3 centuries of branding. If you can fund a local radio station with advertising you can do that for a local newspaper too.

      Especially since: there's no click-through on TV ads, most people either Tivo out the ads, get up and do something else, or change channel temporarily.

      The problem is that newspapers have never understood the net, and the potential for advertising revenue is completely untapped. Advertisers don't understand the internet either. If they did, there wouldn't be flash ads, and measured click-through rates, and it would be much easier for small businesses to get ads online.

    5. Re:Inevitable Future by smitty777 · · Score: 1

      Good points! In fact, it was the assumption of the demise of the hard-copy newspaper that triggered the original post. Sorry, pal - I'm reasonable certain that you'll have to change your morning routine in the near future. Physical media companies are shutting down in droves, and the survivors will be those that can adjust somehow.

      I believe part of that adjustment is in the development of an e-commerce infrastructure and the increasing pervasiveness of technology. Once the physical (in the form of permanent VR contact lenses or whatever) and the economic convenience is in place (in the form of automatic micropayments), I don't think folks will give it another thought. It's like the evolution of the phone - from practically free party lines and local calls to the glutted cell phone plans we have today. They are reeling us in by increments.

      --
      "Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish"
      Albert Einstein
    6. Re:Inevitable Future by Totenglocke · · Score: 1

      But how sustainable is the current paradigm? . I'm asking a sincere question, as the journalists really do have to get paid eventually.

      The problem is that right now, there are too many newspapers and too many "journalists". The overwhelming majority of news is the same, regardless of which reporter writes it or which paper / news site you get it from. The ones that actually offer something more than just the same news 1,000 other people are offering will stay in business and many of the other papers that have nothing unique will close. As the ones who don't offer anything unique shut down, more people will go to the sources offering something worthwhile, which means more ad revenue for them.

      If you want a very easy and relevant example, read slashdot, lifehacker, gizmodo, and engadget - 95% of the articles are identical on each site, so if one site starts charging, people will just move to one of the others (who will then get more ad revenue).

      --
      "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
    7. Re:Inevitable Future by smitty777 · · Score: 1

      No logic gap, my friend. IMHO, there is a fundamental difference between television and website advertising. I've done a number of eyetracking studies on websites that show how routinely and effectively the users completely tune out web advertising. Since television advertising is presented serially (it's the only thing you *can* look at), the user has no choice but to view it. Unless you have TIVO, in which case you're paying through that service. I do agree that the owners recoup lots with the low overhead of the web content though.

      So if the advertisers don't understand the net, what do you propose as an alternative?

      --
      "Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish"
      Albert Einstein
    8. Re:Inevitable Future by zevans · · Score: 1

      The most likely alternative is that the newspaper ditches the online edition completely and focuses on mobiles, iPads, Kindles, and the like for its electronic delivery, where there is a healthy and rapidly growing market in paid-for content

      True, but your phrase "...and the like" is the problem here. Those delivery channels are hideously fragmented, and there is an entry cost TO THE CONSUMER per channel, which is disastrous for anyone trying to build volume consistently.

      In print, you print something in the standard way, and everybody reads it in the standard way. The cost of the newspaper is ALL of the cost to the consumer and nothing is hidden. The run cost of the newspaper's infrastructure is kept to a minimum because whilst it is a physically complicated operation, it's a very mature technology and it's done the same way at nearly all newspapers.

      With other devices, you have to get through a lot of unknowns and weird commercial barriers PER CHANNEL (I've heard that both Apple and Amazon are a pain in the ass to deal with in this kind of scenario) and then you have to hope that enough customers have paid $200 for the device in question so that you actually have some kind of audience able to subscribe. And, if your iPhone app is good, that's no guarantee your Kindle version will be any good. And you've still got a dozen other formats to go.

      The answer is to have a common standard of some kind for markup, and devices that are all able to consume that standard with equal ease... wish someone would do something about that... imagine the possibilities!

      --
      "... and more and more now there are all kinds of electronic goodies available" -- Pink Floyd 1972
    9. Re:Inevitable Future by silanea · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I'm also wondering what people would consider something they'd pay for.

      Off the top of my head:

      1. Information that is relevant to me. I could not care less about sports or the latest celeb gossip, but I do care about technology and the innards of current political processes. Few print dailies offer the latter in any really comprehensive form, and none carries the former on an ongoing basis. I would need to be able to select a) which branches of news I am interested in, and b) on what level. I want the gory details on tech and politics, but I can do with a general overview of the economy since I do not know enough about this field to interpret detailed information on specific companies or industries. I can do without 90% of what is usually crammed into the "culture" section, but I do want to read about new film, book and music releases in certain genres.
      2. Properly researched information, with all sources (bar confidential ones) given and all quotations properly attributed. It is the bloody 21st century and those idiots have yet to discover the mysterious magic of hyperlinks and bibliographic citations. I am sick and tired of reading that "circles say" or "eye-witnesses stated". Who said and did what? I want the ability to verify what they claim in their articles.
      3. Reasonably objective reporting. Complete freedom from bias cannot be achieved, of course, but I do not need murders described in picturesque prose, as if Steven King himself had written the article. Also I want to know what happens in the world, not what publisher X deems compatible with my world view. Political correctness has no place in the selection and priorisation of news. Again, who did what, why did they do it, and what conclusions may be drawn from that?
      4. Background and analysis. If MP x says "GM-food is safe!!1!1" while holding stocks in the top ten international biotech conglomerates that nifty little piece of information belongs in the article so I can put the reported issue into perspective. Also I expect any quoted numbers to be checked for correctness and so on. If *AA claims x fantastillion in damages from evil pirates I expect a proper journalist to check that number and break it down.
      5. Updates! If an article was incorrect, I want to know. If a new development has come up I want to know. But transparently! Revision control is the keyword.
      6. Ease of use. Customisable "home page" and RSS feeds are the bare minimum, along with a sensible feedback mechanism.
      7. Searchable archive of all past issues. Any content older than, say, one week should be open to everyone for free. It is not news then anymore, is it?
      8. Reasonable pricing, ideally based on how much content I order. Like $1 per topic per month for the basic overview, $3 for in-depth information.
      --
      Rudolf Hess edited Mein Kampf. He was the very first grammar nazi.
    10. Re:Inevitable Future by ElectricTurtle · · Score: 1

      I answered this question a while back. Essentially, the old paradigm is obsolete, the new paradigm is so like the old one that it doesn't work, so it's more likely inevitable that the future of news will resemble a coalescence of the blogosphere than any form of pay-to-play.

      --
      I support the Slashcott and will not be reading or commenting from 2/10/14 to 2/17/14. Beta is steaming pile of dog shit
    11. Re:Inevitable Future by smitty777 · · Score: 1

      Hey Turtle - I agree that your new paradigm could work to an extent (Open Source News!). However, I don't think everyone know how to report news. There is an art to reporting concisely, editing, and researching. What you propose could end up in some disgusting shallow Facebook like morass. I can see 50 reports along the lines of "Dude, some n00b just got PWNED by a car on frickin 3rd streed. What a tard".
       
      I was also going to say that the common folk would be more inclined to bias their reports, but never mind.

      --
      "Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish"
      Albert Einstein
    12. Re:Inevitable Future by Byzantine · · Score: 1

      1, 5, 6, and 7 are technological hurdles. Those are relatively easy, I should think. But 2–4 require the people at the "paper" working hard, and more, doing a good job, presumably in a timely manner.[1] I think there (and this touches on 8) you run into the "fast, cheap, good: pick two" problem.

      [1] There's a reason The Economist only publishes weekly.

    13. Re:Inevitable Future by ElectricTurtle · · Score: 1

      The coalescence I spoke of would involve edited news aggregators like Slashdor who would sort through the good and the bad, so the cream would rise to the top. The are, even now, blogs that do research, do edit, and attain consicision. Blogs have in fact caught poor fact-checking in the MSM on some rather notable occasions (like the Dan Rather/Bush/typewriter debacle).

      As for bias, like I said in the linked post, we already get bias. It's just a matter of finding and contrasting opposing biases, or finding people who are naturally more objective.

      --
      I support the Slashcott and will not be reading or commenting from 2/10/14 to 2/17/14. Beta is steaming pile of dog shit
    14. Re:Inevitable Future by vadim_t · · Score: 1

      +1

      That pretty much sums up why I subscribe to LWN, even though it's all free if you wait a week. It's a specialist site, that does its job very well, and that's worth rewarding.

      Now, a site that is yet another regurgitation of the AP feed? No. I'll just go to another.

      And things like what Murdoch came up with (apparently the interface is akin to a PDF, without copy paste or links)? They'd have to pay me to put up with that.

    15. Re:Inevitable Future by schon · · Score: 1

      So I'm expecting the usual reaction from the Slashdot audience cheering the gloriously free nature of information on the net and our ability to stick it to the man.

      This has nothing to do with us "sticking it" to anyone. This is about a dinosaur who is sticking it to himself.

      I'm asking a sincere question, as the journalists really do have to get paid eventually. Advertisers? Probably not with the click rates the way they are nowadays.

      Why is that? Why is it that internet ads get paid on the number of people who immediately stop what they're doing and go to the advertiser's site, but "traditional" media doesn't?

      Why is it that with "traditional" media advertising, the goal is brand awareness, but on the internet, it's direct sales? Why are TV ads not paid based on the number of people who immediately stop what they're doing and rush out to buy the advertised product?

      Even with the rare internet ad program that's CFM-based, the amount is a tiny fraction of the amount of traditional media.

      Either advertising is about brand awareness, or it's about direct sales. If it's about direct sales, then people like Murdoch have been lying to their clients for decades. If it's about brand awareness, then one of the following must be true:

      A) Brand awareness is only worth a fraction of the amount that traditional advertisers are paying, and thus they are being ripped off.

      B) Brand awareness is worth what they're paying for traditional advertising, and therefore advertisers are being severely undercharged for internet advertising.

      If (A) is true, then traditional media is dead, and your question of "how will journalists get paid" is moot - Advertisers will wake up, realize the medium is irrelevant, and no journalist will be paid regardless of whether they're "traditional" or "internet".

      If (B) is true, then internet news sites will begin raising their ad rates, and "internet" journalists will be paid just like their "traditional" counterparts.

      In order to remain in business, Murdoch must believe that (A) is true, and thus he should stop with the stupid stunts and instead work on his salesmanship - he needs to convince advertisers that "click through" is a meaningless metric for determining the worth of an advertisement.

    16. Re:Inevitable Future by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The answer is to have a common standard of some kind for markup, and devices that are all able to consume that standard with equal ease... wish someone would do something about that... imagine the possibilities!

      Try reading the Web on UK commuter trains. It gets a big fat fail. The Times device app, however, having automatically downloaded the newspaper from my home wi-fi so I've already got it all, however...

    17. Re:Inevitable Future by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I already pay my license fee for the BBC, which also happens to have superior journalism. Murdoch is completely irrelevant to me, I wouldn't read his crap if it was free.

    18. Re:Inevitable Future by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dead-tree newspapers often lost money on delivery subscriptions. They made it up with advertising money. Now that delivery has a pretty much zero cost, why should the consumer of the news have to pay anything? It's like over-the-air television... we watch for the content, but it's paid for by the advertising. I'm surprised people even put up with ads on cable... you're paying for the service. Why should you let Comcast/Rogers/whoever double-dip? Apparently America's Got Talent must be just that good...

    19. Re:Inevitable Future by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thank you for your post. I have been saying it over and over. Newspapers are not failing because the economy is changing, they are failing because they stopped doing a good job.

    20. Re:Inevitable Future by mcgrew · · Score: 2, Interesting

      But how sustainable is the current paradigm?

      As sustainable as it's always been. The Illinois Times survives, makes a profit, and pays its staff on advertising alone. Even its paper version is free, and its yearly "Best of" poll winners all proudly have their IT "Best Of" awards displayed on their walls, even higher class joints like Saputo's and D'Arcy's.

      Free sells, but only if it's quality. If your content sucks or your ads are intrusive, your newspaper will die.

    21. Re:Inevitable Future by VShael · · Score: 1

      Based on those listed requirements, might I recommend you read some issues of Private Eye, and see how they fit?

    22. Re:Inevitable Future by laddiebuck · · Score: 1

      9. A pony.

    23. Re:Inevitable Future by silanea · · Score: 1

      I am aware that my expectations are somewhat unrealistic, at least at the price point I put up as an example. But that is what I want as an ideal. The closer a publication comes to fulfilling those requirements the greater the chance that I might be willing to shell out money for it. Business models need to evolve in order to remain sustainable, and my previous post outlines the direction they have to take if they are aiming at my wallet.

      --
      Rudolf Hess edited Mein Kampf. He was the very first grammar nazi.
    24. Re:Inevitable Future by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who cares what information is relevant to a doltish uneducated trolling moron like you silanea? You're nothing more than a fucking waste of sperm.

    25. Re:Inevitable Future by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am aware that my expectations are somewhat unrealistic, by silanea (1241518) writes: on Monday July 19, @06:55AM (#32948846)

      We are also aware that you are nothing more than a stupid troll, so who is going to pay mind to the ramblings of a mindless uneducated fool like yourself in any capacity? Nobody.

  14. This explains a lot by dkleinsc · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Remember Murdoch constantly advocating that other publications go for a paywall. This is why: if he puts things behind a paywall, then he'll be creamed in the marketplace, but if everyone does it then everyone will be forced to pay somebody, thus creating a market for Internet news.

    Of course, he's being an idiot, because there's this little organization called the BBC which provides very good coverage and is publicly controlled.

    --
    I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    1. Re:This explains a lot by JasterBobaMereel · · Score: 1

      Murdoch has friends in high places and campaigns to privatise or hobble the BBC .... ...nothing is free ...a rival is something to crush

      --
      Puteulanus fenestra mortis
    2. Re:This explains a lot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Coincidentally Murdoch's shit head son is lobbying to try to close the BBC News.

      http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8227915.stm

    3. Re:This explains a lot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course, he's being an idiot, because there's this little organization called the BBC which provides very good coverage and is publicly controlled.

      Which is why Murdoch is continually trying to destroy it.

  15. I had a look, I can see why the uptake is slow by qwerty8ytrewq · · Score: 1

    The front page is ok, but clicking a few links resulted in a weird glitch-style reload. After a few goes, a login page came up, with a redirect to the subscription page. 2 quid a week is an OK price, but I agree with petes POV. The biz model is tanking, not the paywall.

    --
    Waiting for the other shoe to...
  16. Why pay for it? by Drakkenmensch · · Score: 1

    I'm not paying for newspapers as it is - I can find a dozen abandonned editions of the day of any given local paper in the subway and in food courts on any day of the week. Why would I pay for the web version of something I already get for free?

    1. Re:Why pay for it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The web version of the viruses you pick up from those papers aren't the same, they only affect computers.

    2. Re:Why pay for it? by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Why would I pay for the web version of something I already get for free?

      That's what we said about television when cable first came out. The answer was "no advertising, no censorship". Now we're paying for it, and have more commercials and censorship on cable channels than we used to have on free TV.

    3. Re:Why pay for it? by Drakkenmensch · · Score: 1

      When I saw Mortal Kombat Armageddon for free on network television, I still felt I paid too much for that.

    4. Re:Why pay for it? by BiggerIsBetter · · Score: 1

      I'm not paying for newspapers as it is - I can find a dozen abandonned editions of the day of any given local paper in the subway and in food courts on any day of the week. Why would I pay for the web version of something I already get for free?

      Pirate!

      --
      Forget thrust, drag, lift and weight. Airplanes fly because of money.
  17. Why journalism online is not worthy of cash by Robotron23 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    If its one thing I've learned in a few years of being involved in the journalistic trade...it's that so many people in it are pigheaded to the point of doing themselves a lot of damage to their potential success and reputation. This is true from editors, to rank and file columnists...and new graduates convert alarmingly to this mentality with a dissapointing number of exceptions.

    Murdoch aside, the overriding truth of modern journalist both here in the UK and in the US is that quantity rules over quality. That's why every Saturday and Sunday we Britons cannot buy a 'quality broadsheet' without having to acquire a book's worth of text in supplements along with the actual newspaper itself. That one has to shell over £1.20 or so for a compendium of tripe that you mostly won't get around to reading is why journalism is failing.

    Simply put there are too many people employed who may have begun with some talent, but have lapsed into a state of passive drudgery writing filler columns about inane topics most readers could not care less about. You can actually tell with a lot of them that the author wasn't really thinking as he or she typed it out. In short the 'news' of newspaper is absent in a woefully high proportion; yes there's room for editorials and quirky opinion pieces...but the proportions are way off right now.

    This is true of all Murdoch rags, most starkly The Times which was a pioneer of supplements in the 1990s. Once, decades ago (pre-Murdoch), the Times led some of the most intriguing investigative departments in journalistic history - they spent months to break a story that would spread across what? Four pages or so of print? This level of work for that amount of journalism is unheard of today - that's because today it's all about cheap, easy stories that can be summed up mostly as: 'Churnalism' (a term coined by Guardian journo Nick Davies) . It began in earnest in the 1980s with Andrew Neil's Times, and the trend away from reportage which took effort, talent, dedication and downright brilliance to pull off is almost entirely absent in The Times of 2010.

    There is hope for the profession, as wracked by disease as it is; online journalism has some good offerings where journalists actually leave the office and do some old school reporting. That Murdoch and a few others see their awful, soulless content as worthy of paying for online rather than just going for what's worked since the beginning (advertisements) is telling of their wrongheaded approach which led so many publications to become so degraded in quality.

    1. Re:Why journalism online is not worthy of cash by llantrisant_jones · · Score: 1

      I'd agree with most of what you say - but there ARE a very few decent online news sources, and it's worth supporting them by taking out a subscription. I personally subscribe to the Financial Times (www.ft.com) and Salon (www.salon.com). They have interesting, original stories that are worth reading. I'm happy to pay to support the journalists and writers to produce quality material. No personal affiliation to either - I'm just a happy customer. I'm really NOT surprised that the Times isn't finding any customers. Most of the mainstream UK press just regurgitates press releases, with some hysterical scaremongering about the fear du jour thrown in. The red-tops add an extra dash of titillation with topless pictures and the latest "scandals" to masquerade as news. There's very little proper investigative reporting going on any more (I don't know whether there every really was any to being with!).

    2. Re:Why journalism online is not worthy of cash by Sevorus · · Score: 1

      This is exactly why I don't bother with newspapers anymore. I can get the same data with a quick scan of google news' homepage, and more timely to boot.

      But I also shell out a little over a hundred bucks every six months to keep the Economist coming - because the quality of their articles is much higher than the norm. Even articles I have no interest in I typically read because I learn a lot from them. Whether I agree with all of their stories or not is a separate issue; the fact remains that they're intelligently written and thought out.

      The problem Murdoch faces is that journalism can be done effectively by anyone willing to do it and with access to information. That gives an 18 year old blogger on the ground in Greece as much capacity to produce good "journalism" on the political situation there as a paid correspondent. Essentially, if you expect people to pay for your product in an environment literally flooded with similar products, you better have a really, really high quality to justify the extra cost.

      If you want Eskimos to buy your Ice, you better have *fantastic* ice to sell.

    3. Re:Why journalism online is not worthy of cash by MarkvW · · Score: 1

      Journalists, for whatever reason, have become mainly passive conduits of PR, releases, etc. They don't go out and get stories anymore. Why should people pay?

    4. Re:Why journalism online is not worthy of cash by Robotron23 · · Score: 1

      That's mainly true - back in the 19th century before all these degrees and educational programmes...journalists sprang up and founded the beginnings of what are now establishment publications. They were mostly middle class, literate and educated at first, but the spirit of journalism began from people who only had common sense rather than formal education to guide them. Yes the world and tech has changed it all a lot; but many of the core principles of going out there and finding a good story were are true then as they are now.

      Remember that whilst it is easy to do something...it's usually hard to do stuff well. Journalism done well requires a marriage of motivation, talent and willingless to enter upon it as a regular activity or method of generating a living for oneself. Not everyone can write engagingly...infact it's quite rare to find a writer that captures your interest and keeps his audience coming back for more for a span of years by sheer excellence of his work.

      Not falling prey to laziness is important else you can begin churning out bad content and stay inside the office all day long till you clock off. That's a temptation a lot of talented but lazy people fall prey to. One can learn a lot by reading books and also asking for tales about the press within press circles; this is the news for the news-makers...because it helps you realize the pitfalls you might end up in to were you ignorant of past circumstances of other journos.

      Any journalism-inclined blog which has an eye at launch to introducing even the most modest adverts in the first 12 months is unduly optimistic, unless we're including blogs with massive capital behind them - and those aren't usually old school journalism of the proper sort that's needed now anyhow.

  18. its a changing of the guard by circletimessquare · · Score: 3, Interesting

    in charge of the movie, music, television, book, and print media industries, you have these guys who clawed their way to the top in an era of typewriters and cassette tapes and celluloid and NTSC and stopping the presses. the golden age of media

    which the internet has killed

    but these guys have invested decades of their lives in a status quo which went **POOF**, just when they get the point where they are at the helm

    naturally, they are bitter. they've been screwed by history. they call it disruptive technology for a reason

    so the rest of us will have to suffer awhile while these media dinosaurs hem and haw and throw chairs and grow purple faced and otherwise rage against the dying if the light. and then they're dead, and then those working in the media trenches now with a firm grasp of what the internet actually means will finally move into power, and maybe we can put all of this clashing of the eras behind us, and all these absolutely moronic laws and policies we keep making fun of here on slashdot, for good reason

    one can hope, anyways

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    1. Re:its a changing of the guard by _Sprocket_ · · Score: 1

      but these guys have invested decades of their lives in a status quo which went **POOF**, just when they get the point where they are at the helm

      naturally, they are bitter. they've been screwed by history. they call it disruptive technology for a reason

      You're attributing far too much thought to the process. This isn't necessarily a hegemony of dinosaurs grumbling in to their scotch and getting back at those who have stolen their rightful place in history. These are people with years of experience doing what they know. The problem is that, as you noted, their experience was gained in an environment that has been disrupted. Their instincts do not fit. But people tend to do what they know. And so these individuals employ their experience and try to make it work in an environment they no longer have instincts for despite their years of experience.

  19. Is failure a success? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Murdoch's not stupid, even if he does want to fight the tide. The question is, does he genuinely want to get money from this venture or does he want a "failure" to demonstrate the need for the government (who are indebted to him for supporting them in the election and stabbing the previous governing party in the back) to lend him a hand. I think it's quite reasonable to assume that he was advised that this would be a commercial failure and decided, eyes open, that that was exactly what he wanted to advance his lobbying position.

    1. Re:Is failure a success? by coofercat · · Score: 1

      Murdoch wants a larger proportion of his revenue to come from subscriptions. He's got 40% of Sky, and is angling for the rest of it. Sky gets most of it's revenue from subscriptions, and then a variable wedge from advertising and pay-per-view. Murdoch wants the same from his news empire.

      He might be an idiot, but he's not stupid. He knows he's got to get a small percentage of the original traffic to convert to subscriptions. He doesn't care - the print side of his business is dwindling, and he knows it. He's making a play for digital, and it's still way too early to figure out if he'll succeed. Sure, his site isn't going to get more hits than the Guardian, but it remains to be see who makes more money in a recession when advertising gets squeezed. You can guess the Guardian will get the same traffic, but get less revenue. Maybe, just maybe, Murdoch will get the same traffic and the same revenue.

      Of course, personally, I think his plan is a bit flawed. However, as someone said in a previous post on this topic, he's about a million times richer than you or I, and he didn't get that way giving it away. My particular jury's still out on his plan, but I don't think it's looking all that good for him.

      (Actually, one thing that really does surprise me is that you can't get old news for free off him. I mean, why not publish stuff from last week/last month or whatever, with a gazillion ads on it, to a google-friendly web site? You might as well get the fun out of it after the subscription has no value. Or not... I'm just not sure why)

    2. Re:Is failure a success? by u38cg · · Score: 1

      He's not stupid at all. He's figured out that 60,000 subscribers paying a pound a day is worth infinitely more than five million subscribers paying nothing. He's figured out that web advertising is and will always pay pennies regardless of your audience, and that sooner or later if you want the kind of organisation that his is to survive someone has to put their balls on the table and try something new.

      --
      [FUCK BETA]
    3. Re:Is failure a success? by martin-boundary · · Score: 1

      And yet, 60 paying subscribers a pound a piece isn't worth 5 million subscribers paying nothing. Crazy math!

    4. Re:Is failure a success? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This. People pointing and laughing going 'oh look, the old man doesn't get the internet' are seriously underestimating Murdoch and I believe that's a dangerous thing to do. Why don't you go ask the guys from Wapping whether Murdoch understands the importance of new technology?

      He's gunning for a large-scale favour to get the necessary leverage for a law change in his favour, and it terrifies me.

  20. He's in it for the very long term... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    Murdoch's in it for the very long term. He did the same thing with TV, lost stupid amounts of money over a decade, but eventually his proprietary broadcasting networks became the status quo. He's got a virtual monopoly on TV sports coverage in many countries, so there's very little option other than to pay over the odds for his TV coverage.

    The troubling thing is he indirectly owns one of the bigger ISPs in the UK, and I suggest it will be part of some long term strategy to make his part of the web more locked down.

  21. Miserable failure ?!? by ctrl-alt-canc · · Score: 2, Funny

    Was George W. Bush involved into the project ?!?

    1. Re:Miserable failure ?!? by mevets · · Score: 1

      I think GWB stopped working for Murdoch in Jan/09.

  22. I changed newspaper by Alain+Williams · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Here is a letter that I wrote to the Editor of the Times a few weeks ago. Since then I have bought The Guardian/Observer.

    =======
    I do not often visit The Times web site, I prefer the paper version. I do mainly if I want to share an article with a friend or few, some item of common interest. Something that has the side effect of introducing non Times readers to The Times.

    I notice that I can no longer do that, it will cost me & my friends to be able to share such things. As a result, after 35 years, I will change newspaper; I will no longer buy your paper copy - probably going for the Guardian or Independent.

    This paywall is a bad idea, the only way that I can adapt to it is to change which newspaper I read. Your foolish action will cost you. I give you permission to email me (once) when you reverse this policy; however I expect that, by then, I will be happy with my new newspaper.

    Regards
    =======

    1. Re:I changed newspaper by ZeroExistenZ · · Score: 2, Funny

      I do not often visit The Times web site, I prefer the paper version. I do mainly if I want to share an article with a friend or few, some item of common interest. Something that has the side effect of introducing non Times readers to The Times.

      I notice that I can no longer do that, it will cost me & my friends to be able to share such things. As a result, after 35 years, I will change newspaper; I will no longer buy your paper copy - probably going for the Guardian or Independent.

      This paywall is a bad idea, the only way that I can adapt to it is to change which newspaper I read. Your foolish action will cost you. I give you permission to email me (once) when you reverse this policy; however I expect that, by then, I will be happy with my new newspaper.

      Regards

      Best sir,

      We are crying here at HQ, as you were one of these loyal long lasting clients we were boasting about. Irma overhere, is devistated; she used to ask every week to handmail out your paper personally but now feels rejected and just was going around with a card to contratulate you on your 35th year of subscription with us. She cancelled the cake-order with your name on it.

      We hope your new meaningful relationship with another paper will bring your more satisfaction, while we try to calm Irma down and try to fix our strategy with the purpose to remain profitable in a digital age. Please accept our sincere appologies of the actions of executive management, and accept these scissors to share your news articles with us.

      Your friends,
      The Times

      --
      I think we can keep recursing like this until someone returns 1
  23. they can identify non-registered users? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    but subscribers to the paper itself — who have free access to the site — are not going beyond the registration page

    Now that's interesting. How do they know that.

    And this quote (sorry, I did RTFA) is interesting, because I hadn't thought of it that way:

    Why would [independent publishers] talk to the Times or the Sunday Times if they are behind a paywall? Who can see it? I can't even share a link and they aren't on search. It’s as though their writers don't exist anymore.

    It's sad, though. I really don't see a bright future for high-quality journalism on the Internet -- not that I'm saying anything about the quality of said papers. Writers want to be read, readers want to read, but the Internet removes both the need and opportunities for middle-men. And I don't think that ad revenue alone is enough to finance a documentary or an in-depth story.

    Maybe the LWN approach is the way to go (pay-walling stories for a limited amount of time). Other than that, I think the value of news over the Internet will be restricted to shallow articles and first-person publications.

  24. It's not about money. It's about ease-of-use. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Any barrier, free or paid, between the consumer and the content will move consumers to others. If paid contact would be easier to access than free contact, many would be happy to pay.

    This is why most DRM schemes have failed, except for iTunes, which makes buying music easier to do than download MP3's for free.

  25. Two words: google hole by alexmin · · Score: 1

    WSJ, FT, and Economists walls are made of swiss cheese. Could it be a reason why those sites are not shut down yet?

  26. What a bug ridden site for a source by Thorfinn.au · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The web site at newser.com call in at least 21 other sites according to No_Script and Ghostery shows at least 5 trackers as well.

  27. beer by Charliemopps · · Score: 1

    It's It's like going to one of those beer festivals where all the breweries are giving away free samples of their beer and setting up your booth as the only one that charges money simply because you think yours is so much better. I guess no one will ever find out.

  28. I've seen the other side...! by openfrog · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I am a subscriber to the Times Literary Supplement. This year, I paid the supplementary 20$ to get Internet access, since I live in Canada and get the TLS with a substantial delay, and also because I was just curious given the scale of Murdoch's experiment, not talking about the scale of his pretensions.

    So I am one of the very few who got past the registration page. The other side of this pay-wall allows us a peek on the dystopian nightmare that would have been the Internet if developed by corporations, and it is on a par with the current state of academic journals online. In order to undo what the Internet is meant to do, that is to hyperlink, Murdoch has spent a fortune developing a shiny interface that let us navigate through an exact reproduction of the paper thing. It is DRM by design: there is no way to copy and paste, to store, therefore to link, to annotate or to use in any meaningful sense of the word beyond a reading experience that is, as a result, as uncomfortable as it gets. The technical constraints that all this restraining impose make navigating and reading impractical and painful.

    Despite the attractiveness of reading the TLS in a timely manner, I went to the site once and never repeated the experience.

    1. Re:I've seen the other side...! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yep. Good thing the Internet was not built by corporations like Google, Amazon, Slashdot, CNN, etc....

    2. Re:I've seen the other side...! by debrain · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yep. Good thing the Internet was not built by corporations like Google, Amazon, Slashdot, CNN, etc....

      Sir –

      The Internet was not built by those companies. Those companies were built on the Internet.

      Of those companies, the History of the Internet on Wikipedia mentions only Google, and that only in the narrow context of search engines.

    3. Re:I've seen the other side...! by Mandrel · · Score: 2, Interesting

      So I am one of the very few who got past the registration page.

      Were there ads? If so, static or animated?

    4. Re:I've seen the other side...! by joshsnow · · Score: 1

      You mean they've nuked the website in favour of some kind of Flash driven, PDF-ish scan of the print version of the newspaper? If so, that's truly regressive!

    5. Re:I've seen the other side...! by Risen888 · · Score: 1

      You're damn right it wasn't. We built the internet. Those guys just bought in.

      --
      Hey, I finally got my first freak! Took you long enough!
  29. Schadenfreude by xednieht · · Score: 4, Interesting

    As much as I love it when a billionaire faceplants, I would suggest that free-forever is not a sustainable business model either - lest those who produce the content are given free food, clothing and shelter.

    Edison tried 3,000 times before he got it down, my guess is that Murdoch and his team are no less determined. One good thing to remember is that the more money he earns, the more money you could potentially earn.

    --

    Hope is the currency of fools
    1. Re:Schadenfreude by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As much as I love it when a billionaire faceplants, I would suggest that free-forever is not a sustainable business model either - lest those who produce the content are given free food, clothing and shelter.

      Edison tried 3,000 times before he got it down, my guess is that Murdoch and his team are no less determined. One good thing to remember is that the more money he earns, the more money you could potentially earn.

      On the contrary, online news is not free at all!

      Every visitor pays with their interest: the "eyeball currency".

      Murdoch knows this very well: all his papers cost almost nothing - and bring in almost nothing from that revenue. The main revenue he has are advertisements.

      Advertisements are a 100+ billion market per year - more than enough to pay good journalists. The money people pay for the news in the newsstand is a drop in the ocean of advertisement dollars.

      So there's plenty of money around for good journalists.

      Except that Murdoch is not interested in paying good journalists - he is interested in monopolizing local papers, he is interested in pushing his other business (and political) interests via his news forums. Murdoch achieves this not by hiring good journalists but by hiring journalists who are willing (and expected) to be 100% loyal to him. He is also saving on good journalists by syndicating most of the news. So he doesn't even create much 'content' - he merely licenses AP and reprints that into a monopolized advertisement market.

      It's a pretty reasonable business model, and the advertisements pay really well. Too bad for Murdoch that Google started this business model with a 10 years headstart.

    2. Re:Schadenfreude by misexistentialist · · Score: 1

      If they aren't already, it's about time newspapers started charging their sources.

    3. Re:Schadenfreude by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Edison's 3000 tries got us something Damn Useful. Murdoch's goal is to take what is already there and make it cost him less, cost us more, belong only to him, and occasionally only say what he wants. Fuck Murdoch.

    4. Re:Schadenfreude by martin-boundary · · Score: 1

      I would suggest that free-forever is not a sustainable business model either - lest those who produce the content are given free food, clothing and shelter.

      A sustainable business model for whom? You're conflating the plight of the media empire with the plight of the media producers/writers. A journalist can sell a story and get paid once upon delivery. That takes care of the journalist, no need to invoke free food. The problem today is that journalists are employees who are ipso facto being paid contingent on the wellbeing of the media empire which employs them. That's the problem. If the media empire fails, all the employees lose their jobs.

      Journalists must move away from the mindset of being employed for life into a mindset of selling stories for cash or commission to whomever wants it. That way they get paid when the story is delivered, and what happens afterwards is irrelevant.

    5. Re:Schadenfreude by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One good thing to remember is that the more money he earns, the more money you could potentially earn.

      ...Right. Because he hasn't been getting richer and richer while the rest of society has been getting poorer and poorer or anything.

      Mind the Gap.

      Side note: Captcha: "Cheated"

    6. Re:Schadenfreude by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Try selling a story once, then we'll talk. If there are no buyers, who will you sell to. If journalists would have wanted to be entrepreneurs or freelancers they would not be working for someone else. The freelance journalism business is a serious grind, most do it to build a name and become part of a larger media organization.

  30. i get my news the traditional way by FudRucker · · Score: 4, Funny

    i listen to the cantankerous old folks bitch about it at a local tavern

    --
    Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
    1. Re:i get my news the traditional way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, I get all my news at Slashdot as well.

  31. Murdoch will change his strategy by zerofoo · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The flaw in Murdoch's strategy is that to effectively charge for something that everyone else is giving away for free, you need to convince all the other "free guys" to charge for their stuff.

    This works in industries where the barriers to entry are high, but on the web, anyone can be a journalist - hell, you don't even need to know how to operate a web server any more - all you need is a hosted wordpress account and you are off to the races.

    That's where Murdoch will focus his energies next - raising the barriers to entry. I can easily see this slimeball "partnering" with ISPs to restrict access to free sites. Unless we have clear regulator enforced net neutrality laws, Murdoch and his types will restrict our right to free press and force all of us to pay for his "news".

    -ted

    1. Re:Murdoch will change his strategy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is why Murdoch's Fox News has been going after Wikipedia of late.

    2. Re:Murdoch will change his strategy by makomk · · Score: 1

      The first step is lobbying the EU to make bloggers pay royalties if they blog about - entirely in their own words - events they read about in the news. Yes, really.

  32. Murdoch forgot one thing: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    Murdoch forgot one thing: his customers are cheap cunts. At least, if the US followers of his empire are any indication.

  33. Problem is the business model by Budenny · · Score: 4, Interesting

    News has a model of the world in which you buy and read one paper, as you did back in the days when there were only paper editions. The reason you only bought one paper is that as papers rose in price, it got too expensive to buy all of them. So back then, unless you were a business person who really needed them all, you would buy one and read it. However when papers went online, all of a sudden people started reading the Guardian, Telegraph, Independent and Times, all of them.

    Total newspaper readership therefore rose dramatically. The model had changed. We were now in a world of non-exclusive newspaper readership, where people find it natural to glance through all the broadsheets.

    Rupert would now like to turn back the clock, and have all papers go behind the paywall. However, he fails to realize that if that world were to come about, total readership would fall. He would then only have those people who were prepared to restrict themselves to the Times.

    It is not that people particularly want to get their content free. They will pay for it, if its distinctive and of value to them, as the FT, Economist, and WSJ show. What they do not want however is a model in which they subscribe to a paper as in the old days. So what happened when the Times went behind the paywall is that everyone deleted that bookmark but carried on as before reading Telegraph, Guardian and Independent. They don't really need the Times, as long as the market is using the model of non-exclusive readership.

    This is the critical point that Rupert is failing to get. He is trying to operate a model of the past, in a world in which non-exclusive readership has become the norm. The effect of this is going to be to take the Times out of the running. It is no longer part of the broadsheets that you glance through online. People are not going to subscribe to just one, and in a world in which only one charges, they are going to carry on scanning through the others, without particularly missing the Times, which has nothing very distinctive to offer.

    Historically, News has always had a problem thinking the content issue through. Consider the case of LineOne, many years ago. The argument then was, we have all this distinctive content that we will use to force people to subscribe to our Internet Access service because that is the only way we will allow access to it. They will pay a premium for the access in order to get the content. In those days the contrary argument was made: if the content is so valuable, just sell it to anyone, regardless of who they get their access from. At which those in charge of the content rightly flinched, and admitted that it was unsaleable.

    OK, then, what made them think it was saleable at a premium when bundled with access? And as it turned out, it was not, and the access business was sold off to Tiscali and the Times went online free.

    They have been obsessed with the model of Sky, where they got exclusive rights, used those to sell dishes and subscriptions. But it depends on having 'must have' content. What Rupert is refusing to accept right now is that, except in the case of the WSJ, he has no 'must have' content. None. Columnists? Who cares?

    As the article says, the Times has simply vanished from online. No-one links to it, no-one quotes it, as far as can be seen no-one subscribes to it. It has vanished. Give it another few months, and the effect will be the same as if it had no online presence.

    Now ask yourself: if someone had gone to Rupert six months ago, and proposed closing down their web presence, would he have agreed? It would probably have been a short meeting, and a very blunt one. But that is what, probably without in the least intending to, he has now done.

    1. Re:Problem is the business model by Old97 · · Score: 2, Interesting
      I agree with what you've written. I'd add a couple of more observations:

      1) Get the order right - pillage before you burn. Newspapers and magazines have "de-contented" over the years to save money. That reduced the real and perceived value of their products. They went on-line with this "de-contented" version and we got used to it. Then they erected the paywall. Now, I would have paid for their product if I thought it was the same product it was before all the cost cutting, but I don't really value what they ended up being. If they wait until the paywall is up to restore the quality of their content, how will I know? What will persuade me that what is behind the paywall is any better than what I was seeing before the paywall went up? The Economist hasn't made this mistake.

      2) The prices are too high. Frankly anything more than 99 cents (US) a week gives me pause and I'll probably say no thanks. I won't pay 3 or 5 dollars a week for electronic content. That adds up. I compare everything to the monthly cost of HBO - which I dropped - and if it gets in that range I'm unlikely to subscribe. Too much of a commitment. With everybody asking from 3 to 10 dollars a month for their stuff it could quickly add up to a car payment. I don't have the time to consume all that content every month and I'm only willing to throw so much money away. BTW, I'm upper income middle class and I buy Apple products so if I won't pay, how many will?

      Have these companies actually studied the demand elasticity curves - price versus volume trade-offs - to determine how to maximize revenues? Unlike print, it doesn't really cost more to deliver more copies and more volume means more ad income. So it seems to me that unlike some goods, maximizing revenue for electronic content probably benefits more from lower prices than most anything else.

      --
      Very often, people confuse simple with simplistic. The nuance is lost on most. - Clement Mok
  34. Looks like success to me by metamatic · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Dramatically fewer people reading Murdoch's crap, and he's still not making any money.

    Looks like success from where I'm sitting.

    --
    GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
    1. Re:Looks like success to me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Times wasn't "crap", sorry - also had a fun comments section, despite (or maybe because of) their readerbase being normally somehwere near the political opposite of my own views.

      That Murdoch can afford to lose money on The Great Times Online Experiment, hell, he can afford it. He still has enough cash cows like Sky to be able to afford not to give a damn, actually.

      The real problem with the resistance to the pay model is that other papers, (e.g. The Guardian) who are losing money hand-over-fist, really cant afford to continue with their current operational free online model either - somehwere, somebody is gonna have to figure out how to make this online journalism stuff work. Or, at very least, break even.

  35. I think they deserve a bailout by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They are too big to fail! the economy will come down, if we let newscorp empire fail!

    I think as taxpayers, they deserve a bailout!

  36. Times shakes off parasites by David+Gerard · · Score: 4, Funny

    The Times has put into place its new paywall system, to keep readers, search engines and other criminals from using it to download cars, to the sound of champagne corks popping at the Guardian, Telegraph and BBC.

    The newspaper will now require payment of £1 a day for its unique and high-quality editorial viewpoints, as taken from the Sun and rewritten in big words. The site also blocks anyone under 18 from registering, in order to keep the paper's quality demographic aging nicely.

    "I firmly support this move," said everyday citizen on the street and certainly not Guardian editor at all Alan Rusbridger. "In fact, it should be ten pounds a day. Ten pounds a story. Then people will really see it as high-quality merchandise and not rewritten press releases and news feeds with Mr Murdoch dictating the editorial page."

    "It's ours," said James Murdoch, frothing slightly. "You thieving bastards steal our copyright every time you save a copy into your heads! Well, we'll fix your little wagon. It's a pound a day plus a pound a copy behind your eyes plus a pound a copy you talk about with anyone else plus a pound a copy just fucking because. It's for me and Dad and you can just fuck off. And when we buy the BBC we won't let you watch that either. Arseholes."

    "OK, the champagne is Thunderbird Sparkling," said Mr Rusbridger. "Times are tough, you know. But I have complete faith we're on the right path and the Times is doomed. I told ’em, I told ’em. Spare fiddy pee for a Polly Toynbee column? God bless you, sir!"

    "I am one hundred percent behind paying for quality journalism," said free culture activist Hiram Nerdboy, 17. "That's why I just gave fifty quid to Wikileaks."

    Illustration: Rupert Murdoch with the precioussssssssss.

    --
    http://rocknerd.co.uk
  37. no go joe by drdoot · · Score: 2, Funny

    I'm trying to read the article @ The Sunday Times, but it's asking me to pay.

  38. If there's content I'll pay for it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I actually agree with the principle of paying for stuff. As someone who doesn't think money grows on trees, I understand that journalists, photographers, columnists and editorialists expect to be paid at the end of the month.

    If a website is a re-hash of other newssites or a mere Reuters aggregator, it doesn't have any value to me.
    If a website provides high quality articles, then it's a matter of how much am I willing to pay to access the information.

    Murdoch supposedly said once "content is king". I totally agree. And I'll pay for it.

  39. Media for rich people. by maillemaker · · Score: 1

    The reason why it probably worked for those publications is because they target an elite audience who finds a subscription to such things a triviality and/or a business expense to be written off.

    --
    A work that expires before its copyright never enters the public domain and thus enjoys eternal copyright protection.
  40. No, the economist IS far right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

    No, the economist IS far right. Libertarian and far-right have been merged, both because they *espouse* "small government" but merely as an opposition to "small corporation". They both want government to be replaced by corporations and want them AS BIG AS POSSIBLE. Hence, the Mil-Ind complex gets big spending: though "big government", this benefits companies not government, making the government the one-stop-shop for company profiles.

    They aren't skeptical of the proposed MEASURES because they only asked RHETORICAL "would they be effective?" just so that NOTHING WOULD BE DONE. Because that would be interference by government in company business. A very far right thing to do.

    "Being skeptical is not necessarily 'denying'" Indeed they aren't. The IPCC scientists are skeptical of the papers supporting AGW. But to deny the evidence is not skepticism. And despite all the evidence, the Economist still doesn't think there's enough proof. This is DENIAL.

    1. Re:No, the economist IS far right by Beyond_GoodandEvil · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No, the economist IS far right. Libertarian and far-right have been merged, both because they *espouse* "small government" but merely as an opposition to "small corporation".
      Ug, so this is the new /. meme, I guess it is better than libertarian == Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome, but not by much. Oh, and pointing out that making the 1st world cut their own throats and move all their manufacturing to the 3rd world without reducing pollution isn't great for the earth. One need not believe in the holy church of AGW to think pollution is bad, and one isn't a AGW denier b/c one thinks the aforementioned manufacturing shift is a bad idea.

      --
      I laughed at the weak who considered themselves good because they lacked claws.
    2. Re:No, the economist IS far right by clarkkent09 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Libertarian and far-right have been merged, both because they *espouse* "small government" but merely as an opposition to "small corporation". They both want government to be replaced by corporations and want them AS BIG AS POSSIBLE.

      Where on earth do you get that from? Daily Kos? The only people consistently against the wars and excessive military spending were the libertarians. Look at Ron Paul's voting record. Democrats generally supported the war and still pursue it. The only people against the bailouts for the big corporations were libertarians as well. Democrats supported them. Libertarians want the government to be one stop shop for corporate profits?! I don't think you can be any further from being right if you tried.

      --
      Negative moral value of force outweighs the positive value of good intentions.
    3. Re:No, the economist IS far right by Bemopolis · · Score: 1

      The only people consistently against the wars and excessive military spending were the libertarians.

      No, liberals (note that I did not say Democrats) were also consistently against the wars and excessive military spending. The difference is that true liberatarians have one vote in Congress.

      --
      "I guess the moral of the story is, don't paint your airship with rocket fuel." -- Addison Bain
    4. Re:No, the economist IS far right by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      The only people consistently against the wars and excessive military spending were the libertarians.

      You go tell that to Eric Raymond.

    5. Re:No, the economist IS far right by Risen888 · · Score: 1

      No, liberals (note that I did not say Democrats) were also consistently against the wars and excessive military spending.

      Neat trick right there. Sure, if you exclude everyone with a vote from your made up definition of "liberal," and turn it into a club of one, then yes, all one of you were consistently against the war. So fucking what. Who'd you vote for?

      --
      Hey, I finally got my first freak! Took you long enough!
    6. Re:No, the economist IS far right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and they are both against civil rights... So you could say they are both racist scumbags.

    7. Re:No, the economist IS far right by Doomdark · · Score: 2, Informative
      You are implying that all members of US democratic party would be considered so-called liberals (so-called because word liberal has rather odd current usage in US, but I digress). This is not the case. Rather, just like republicans, democrats have wide spectrum of politicians, extending to liberals as well as moderate conservatives.

      And yes, from within actual US liberals -- including those democrats that can be considered ones judging by their overall positions, not just based on their stance wrt war(s) -- most have been against various US lead wars. More so against Iraq, bit less so against others. And for good reasons, not all wars had equally sound or unsound justifications.

      --
      I like paying taxes. With them I buy civilization -- Oliver Wendell Holmes
    8. Re:No, the economist IS far right by moortak · · Score: 1

      Kucinich is a Libertarian? I'm shocked by this news. Here I thought he was in the left wing of the Democratic party.

      --
      Xavier Rabourdin for president 2012
    9. Re:No, the economist IS far right by Risen888 · · Score: 1

      You are implying that all members of US democratic party would be considered so-called liberals (so-called because word liberal has rather odd current usage in US, but I digress).

      I am not. I am replying to a specific statement made by another poster regarding "liberals" and "the wars." I assure you that I am aware of the nuances involved in trying to place arbitrary labels on anyone at any point on the political spectrum, and it was this very fallacy that I was trying to point out in my comment.

      If someone can take a word like "liberal" and say it means whatever they want it to mean, and then say "liberals were against the war(s)," well, that's bullshit, and it's an apology and an excuse to continue holding one's nose and voting Democratic even though their values do not reflect the actual American liberal tradition.

      --
      Hey, I finally got my first freak! Took you long enough!
    10. Re:No, the economist IS far right by selven · · Score: 1

      They both want government to be replaced by corporations and want them AS BIG AS POSSIBLE

      As a real libertarian, I'd rather have everyone as small as possible.

  41. It's called The Times! by kiwipom · · Score: 1, Informative

    Can we clear this up once and for all, the newspaper in question is called The Times, not The London Times, or the Times of London. Other newspapers with the word Times in their name do so because they are named after The Times

    --
    Dum spiro spero
  42. ummm by buddyglass · · Score: 1

    Based on the summary, I don't see evidence that his decision was a failure. The results prove that the vast majority of traffic to the sites was from non-subscribers, and that these users aren't willing to pay. Okay. Less traffic means less ability to sell advertising on the web site, which means less revenue. But was the web site profitable to begin with? How much can be saved in reduced web development work and lower operating costs due to the vastly smaller amount of visitors?

    If the web site was profitable before and now isn't, or is less so, then yes this was a failure. But if it was losing money before and is now losing less, despite having so many fewer visitors, then maybe its a net win.

    I guess we'll find out if/when he decides to reverse that decision. Bottom line, dude is in it for the money. If this is hurting his bottom line he'll recant.

  43. Niche markets by Comboman · · Score: 5, Insightful

    There must be a couple of more exceptions

    Consumer Reports is another periodical website that uses the subscription model (though in that case it is because they don't accept advertising so their reviews can be truly independent). What they have in common with WSJ, Economist and various scientific/medical journals is that they offer highly specialized data to a niche market that is willing to pay a premium for it. General interest newspapers and magazines do not fall into that category which is why the advertising-based model works much better for them.

    --
    Support Right To Repair Legislation.
    1. Re:Niche markets by s122604 · · Score: 1

      What pisses me off about CR is that paper subscribers don't get access to the website, they make you pay again
      although, i guess you could subscribe to the site and not the magazine
      I found this out because the folks are paper subscribers.

    2. Re:Niche markets by AK+Marc · · Score: 2, Interesting

      because they don't accept advertising so their reviews can be truly independent

      Independent, but not unbiased. They have at least one advertiser - themselves. After the publicity from Suzuki, they purposefully made the next one tip, violating every stated testing standard they had and even inventing new ones in order to make cars tip. And, of course, when they succeed, they issue press releases and paste it on the cover and such. Try reading one of their articles on, say, cereal (I read only because it was after the article in question above, where I checked it in the library to see how bad their lies were in their issue in question). It reads like a comedy. They rate it on things so subjective as to be useless. Then present it like a fact. Or their car reliability, where a Ford Probe will receive worse marks than a Mazda MX-6, despite both being made in the same factory to be essentially the same other than some minor styling and options. And they don't even try to explain or understand statistics, they just use them however they see fit to give the readers what they want to hear so they keep buying.

      It's uninformed biased crap that's pretty much useless, but at least it is independent.

    3. Re:Niche markets by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What pisses me off about CR is that paper subscribers don't get access to the website, they make you pay again

      That doesn't piss me off. I didn't pay for it. What pisses me off is they keep sending me junk mail pretending to be renewal notices for my paper version, which are really ads for the online version. I think I get one a month.

    4. Re:Niche markets by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow - you mean experts in subjects with subjective criteria are intrinsically incapable of knowing their own biases and accounting for them?

      I can only assume you consider McDonalds cooking and the White House chef objectively equal, since there's no objective way to really compare the two.

      Alternatively:
      -----
      However, although Consumer Reports was eventually forced to compromise, there is little doubt that there were safety compromises on the Suzuki SJ. Suzuki’s own internal documents prove the company knew of the Samurai’s rollover problem, but marketed the car anyway. A Suzuki memorandum dated July 14, 1985 stated: "It is imperative that we develop a crisis plan that will primarily deal with the ‘roll’ factor. Because of the narrow wheel base, similar to the Jeep, the car is bound to turn over."
      -----
      It's just feasible you've been listening to that left wing radical media I keep hearing Limbaugh talk about again. Wish I could find some of it.

      Pug

    5. Re:Niche markets by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      All vehicles turn over. I've seen someone roll a sports car on flat pavement. Mercedes had a racing car that had a habit of doing somersaults when cresting hills (not exactly a roll, but cool flips). All you can do is measure the tendency for that to happen, not come up with a boolean regarding whether every version of that car will or won't behave in that manner. That narrow tall vehicles are more likely to roll than others isn't a surprise. That CR lies about its testing when it cheats in order to generate a roll in order to issue press releases to promote its product doesn't instill me with confidence in the rest of their reviews.

      Remember, this isn't a question about vehicle safety, but a question about whether CR is trustworthy. And their proven lies indicate to me that they are not.

  44. I crack the DVD content and it's turnkey simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I crack the DVD content and it's turnkey simple. No, I don't have Sony (though I would have their plain old TVs: no DRM on them, as long as I don't get HDCP connectors). Don't get BluRay, so right there too. I don't buy movies, I buy DVDs which come with just a copy of the movie, not the movie in toto, and DEFINITELY not the publishing umbrella company, so not sure what you're saying there...

    Note I'm not the OP, but I don't have a TV and don't watch iPlayer BBC content because of the DRM.

    "I pay the license fee, and people who weasel out of it on a technicality piss me off."

    I don't have to have a license for iPlayer. The OP say they don't have a TV, so they don't need a license either. It's not a technicality, it's the law.

    "You admittedly watch TV"

    No, he said he didn't have a TV for years. What may be happening is he was paying the license DESPITE THIS, just because news.bbc.co.uk was good:

    "but I thought that the license fee was worth the money to support news.bbc.co.uk - it worked out cheaper than a daily newspaper"

    Which reads like "I paid the license for the non-license-requiring news site because I felt I should". Nothing about watching TV (which would be hard to do without a TV...).

    "you admittedly enjoy the output of the BBC"

    Yes, However, not wanting a TV license doesn't mean he has to not like the BBC. Band Of Brothers was good and was output of the BBC. Maybe he bought the DVD, maybe he never watched it except around a friends' place, maybe he's never seen it but heard good things about it. NONE of which requires he buy a TV license.

    But no, you have a stick up your arse about non-TV-license payers who legally do not have to have a TV license and ASSUME he's ripping the BBC off by pirating the telly.

    Utter fail.

  45. Check out the market share graphs by rapiddescent · · Score: 2, Informative

    HitWise have graphs that show the decline in market share following the paywall implementation. It shows that The Telegraph (also a slightly right of centre broadsheet) picked up traffic as the Times declined.

    What is interesting is that a week after the paywall, there were still users navigating to the website to be confronted with the paywall page - probably because they were being linked to the site from other sites or were using book marks. As they realise that The Times is paywalled, they are not going back.

  46. All topics are economic in the end by SuperKendall · · Score: 1, Insightful

    On non-economic topics, why would you expect them to be any better than your local newspaper?

    The thing is, there are huge and far-reaching implications economic depending on how much humanity needs to adjust carbon output. So a magazine like the economist would, naturally, seek to fully vette theories that are going to drive major policy changes.

    There are very few topics at this point in time that are not at the core economic issues, because everything impacts government policy and regulation these days.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  47. WSJ by Elfich47 · · Score: 2, Informative

    It appears that the quality of the WSJ reporting has declined since Murdoch took over. Most of the serious economists that want hard data and serious analysis have fled the WSJ and moved to the FT. The reason is simple: The WSJ is no longer providing the material that it used to. On the other hand I think the Bancroft Family took the best advice for the stock market when selling the paper: Buy Low, Sell High.

    --
    Architectural plans are like computer source code with a couple of differences: You only compile once.
  48. Haven't you noticed his travelling show? by dbIII · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Rupert and Son have been travelling the world making a lot of noise about copyright and "unfair competition" for the last couple of years and amoung other things those that listened seriously cut back BBC news online in response. This latest paywall effort is about making more noise and he doesn't really care much if his newspapers bleed a little more money while he rakes in the TV, movie and even ISP cash. All this noise is about making life difficult for competitors for the advertising dollar - he really wants to influence enough people to pass laws that will kick google in the teeth.
    He's an old bastard but not a stupid one or even out of touch. He's always operated with a collection of experts on any topic that will get him commercial advantage, and on the internet side he bought an ISP in 1993. I hate the guy since he bought a controlling share and gutted a software company I worked for in 2000, but he's no idiot and he's playing a game to influence governments to tightly control the internet to raise the condition of entry to where eventually only very large companies can compete.
    He's playing the game to damage google and stop anything like it from emerging from a small start ever again

  49. Keeping your soul & avoiding churnalism by Robotron23 · · Score: 1

    Yes I noted in the last paragraph of my post that there are indeed good offerings to be found online. The red-tops never were quality; my post was aimed at those that do bill themselves as quality but are anything but. The paywalling is just an appalling, but oddly logical, end to the mentality of those who've turned journalism away from principle and towards profit.

    You're spot on about the regurgitation - there are journalists, often younger ones who actually were interested and optimistic as they learned contextual stuff in university who are now employed to recycle stuff from the Press Association/Associated Press/Reuters wire all day long. It is the most boring, efficient way a young person can kill off any geniune like for the job; for them the trade is defined by repetitive soul destroying work rather than creativity or satisfaction. It isn't anything approaching passion after a year or two of suffering that.

    Frankly I wouldn't blame any graduate now to avoid fixed employment altogether and make his or her chief aim to build a reputation as a competant, talented freelancer. Blogging and online journalism is one way to do this; getting out there and doing your own stories unique to you, making calls and getting a few contacts in the local press offices can be a good start.

    Highest renown often goes to the talented; journalism has a history of awarding talent with recognition. Don't bother going into it unless you were told by your teachers, family, friends etc that you had a knack for words and you personally feel you could make it. If you feel your personality squares with journalism then by all means enter the profession with all the individualism you can muster as that trait is always needed. Don't expect to make much money in the formative years; it takes time until you can command a fair income.

    Good books to read to clue in are Andrew Marr's 'My Trade' and Nick Davies's 'Flat Earth News' , if you like humour look up Benji the binman on Google. Nick's book is brutally honest and far closer to how it works today than Marr's nostalgic, historical, professorish work which is nevertheless decent.

  50. Why do the paper subscribers have to register? by RevWaldo · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If the site was smartly built the paper subscribers shouldn't have to go through a registration process at all.

    Type in your choice of unique identifier - subscriber number off the label, home phone number, OR credit card number.

    "We found a matching subscription - is this you? Yes/No"

    Slap a cookie on the browser - done. No password required.

    Yes, someone could fake their way in using just this info, but compared to people not using the site AT ALL it's a minimal concern. If there's a feature on the site that involve some one-off charges THEN you hit the user up for harder verification. Otherwise, keep it simple.

    .

  51. I'm perfectly willing to pay ... by gurps_npc · · Score: 5, Insightful
    If they treat me like the purchaser as opposed to their seed grain.

    That means:

    1. NO ADVERTISING. If you advertise, particularly the annoying, video and sound (with those extra annoying pop-up - or worse pop-out crap), your customers are the advertisers and my attention is what you are selling. Why should I have to pay you so that you can IRRITATE and ANNOY me by selling MY attention? NO. Adverising is a great, perfectly fine way to pay for FREE content. It is NOT an acceptable way to make some extra money on top of what you charge me.

    2. NO TRACKING ME. Again, if I am paying you for a service, that means I don't want you to invade myprivacy. You don't track what I read or when. No record keeping of anything I do. You are allowed to count how many people click on a story, but not whether the same person clicks on story X as also clicks on story Y.

    3. Video and sound should all be accompanied by printed summaries. Deaf people (and blind people using text-to speech converter programs) are important customers too and some of us don't like the video - it takes too much time, is lazy, and if I wanted that I would turn on the TV.

    4. Better, in depth writing that does not accept stupid statements. Don't just accept statements, VERIFY them. (i.e. treat each of the people you quote the way Politifact.org does and when they give numbers make sure they are telling the truth.) When someone says something really stupid like "this snow storm in the heart of winter disproves global warming", call them on it YOURSELF, don't simply get an opposing point of view.

    The Internet did not kill newspaper, a combination of poor writing and advertisers did (the advertisers would rather spend 5 cents to talk sell diapers to pregnant women than 10 cents to sell diapers to everyone). Those same forces rule the internet news market - as long as you let them. If you want to recreate the pay-news market, you need to avoid the problems that killed the newspaper.

    --
    excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
    1. Re:I'm perfectly willing to pay ... by JohnFluxx · · Score: 1

      I pay for lwn.net which writes complex technical articles about the linux kernel.

      I like what they do:

      1) All (I think?) the articles become free after some period of time. For the weekly articles it's after one week.
      2) They have an option of saying that you are poor, in which case you pay half price
      3) They pay for very well written reports that I don't see elsewhere.
      4) It's cheap enough that I simply set up a direct debit and don't worry about it.

  52. So why do they go Off Topic then? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So why do they go Off Topic then? If they aren't supposed to be read for this, why do they waste time and money and effort and space, all of which could be done discussing things that are ON TOPIC?

    Because they're selling the corporate dream: the corporation is always right and government should butt out.

    This is editorialism and politicisation. Both of which it is completely appropriate to call the Economist out on.

  53. Michael Wolff is a leech and a competitor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    While the subscription service may or may not be failing, it's important to remember that Michael Wolff runs Newser and Newser wants to get all of its content for FREE. So he naturally wants the paywalls to fail because if they work he won't find anything to aggregate. He'll actually have to pay the reporters himself. Please keep this bias in mind.

    And the Newsday example with 35 subscribers is also flawed because the newspaper threw in the online version for free with a paid subscription to the dead tree edition and the dead tree edition was CHEAPER than the online because it was subsidized by ads. Naturally most people chose the cheaper option.

  54. I think the end game will play out like this by Elfich47 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Previously all the papers used the AP/Reuters because the AP covered issues the local paper couldn't. No one cared that everyone used the AP because people didn't read out of state newspapers.

    Now the model has shifted. Everyone can read anyone's newspapers, but everyone is annoyed that all you get from any "local" newspaper is the same AP feed (some who charge for it and some who do not). I can see that small papers dropping the AP feed because it isn't useful to them any more. The bandwidth cost to carry information that everyone else has isn't worth it. Then the paper becomes a "local paper" or a "niche paper" again that can justify charging for its content. It will be able to charge because it is covering things that are locally important that you can't get anywhere else.

    The AP on the other hand is going to have a problem: With all the small papers dropping them as a source of revenue, they will have to find another way to support themselves. I don't know what that is but they will have to scramble to get it done.

    --
    Architectural plans are like computer source code with a couple of differences: You only compile once.
  55. People in the UK don't pay willingly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "We in the UK pay for the BBC willingly "

    This is untrue, if you don't pay you are marched to the magistrate's court and fined or imprisoned.

    You can chose not to watch live TV, but that is not a realistic option for most sane people (spare the "there is nothing on TV" nonsense, with PVRs you can watch quality TV only if you so wish, specially in the UK where quality is not bad and where we get only the best shows from the US and other countries (If you are missing the Swedish version of Wallander in BBC4 you are a real mutt).

  56. The issue is this: by Elfich47 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Because there are less people reading the Times, fewer publicists are directing people to be interviewed at the Times. If you know people are reading the Guardian and not the Times and you want to get your message out, you go to the Guardian because more eyes are going to see your message. That is going to set up a feedback loop where people say "hey, the guardian has more content than the Times does, why am I reading the times." Then fewer people produce content for the Times, fewer people read the Times, etc etc etc.

    It is hard to develop a user base when you seem to be actively driving away readers and by extension the people who develop your content.

    --
    Architectural plans are like computer source code with a couple of differences: You only compile once.
    1. Re:The issue is this: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just one "etc". Redundantly writing three "etc" in written form three written times is redundantly redundant x3.

    2. Re:The issue is this: by pbhj · · Score: 1

      >That is going to set up a feedback loop where people say "hey, the guardian has more content than the Times does, why am I reading the times." Then fewer people produce content for the Times, fewer people read the Times, etc etc etc.

      I'd have thought you go to The Times because News Corp own [seemingly] half the worlds press and probably share stories between sister papers. The Times could be run at a loss for a long time before Murdoch has to limit the number of bottles of Cristal he washes his fleet of Lear jets in.

  57. why? by shentino · · Score: 1

    Why don't I pay for content behind a paywall?

    Well, apart from the selfish adverseness to paying up common to every other greedy human being, I find micropayment based paywalls to be nothing but a major hassle.

    A flat monthly subscription fee combined with one time login would be much more attractive.

  58. Re:Mac address filtering + strong password by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It keeps the Murdoch's away?

  59. Re:Mac address filtering + strong password by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You've clearly posted in the wrong article. Sadly, you're still +3 informative.

  60. Re:Duh...Faux by joshsnow · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Murdoch's terrible Faux News was on the TV in the bar last night and gees, if anyone would have talked about Bush when he was in office the way Murdoch's "news" station talks about Obama, Faux News and the neocons would have called them "traitors" and screamed bloody murder.
    That's absolutely correct. He wants to tell people what to think and when to think it. And gets outraged when they don't comply.

  61. Re:Mac address filtering + strong password by roman_mir · · Score: 1

    It's only sad for Murdoch, to me this is just a sign that my /.fu is strong.

  62. The guy is 79 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    He won't probably stay around for much longer. It's a ghastly thing to wish for somebody's death, but the world will be a better place once Rupert Murdoch is gone.

  63. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  64. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

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  65. well said by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

    i heartily agree with your better statement of the problem than mine

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
  66. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1, Flamebait

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  67. Excellent delivery service by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    for rubbish content.

  68. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  69. Murdoch "News" service by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why should I pay a "news" organization which openly claims that it is has the right to lie or deliberately distort news reports?

    http://message.snopes.com/showthread.php?t=23679

  70. Not to put too fine a point on it... by garyisabusyguy · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    But FUCK RUPERT MURDOCH with the rotting corpses of every single one of the Fox News talking heads that he is using to turn the US populace into brain damaged morons

    --
    Wherever You Go, There You Are
    1. Re:Not to put too fine a point on it... by BrokenHalo · · Score: 1

      But FUCK RUPERT MURDOCH

      What for? He's doing a perfectly good job of fucking himself, thank you very much.

      I'd like to imagine him howling out the rest of his days alone, unloved with his cats on a back stair in Stepney [credit: DNA], but I doubt if that's likely. But a mass boycott of his paywall is a good second-best.

    2. Re:Not to put too fine a point on it... by afabbro · · Score: 1

      But FUCK RUPERT MURDOCH with the rotting corpses of every single one of the Fox News talking heads that he is using to turn the US populace into brain damaged morons

      Dude, seriously...if you think MSNBC, CNN, or any of the old TLA news networks are a scintilla better, you're just a partisan shill.

      --
      Advice: on VPS providers
    3. Re:Not to put too fine a point on it... by garyisabusyguy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      SO... when Fox News is redressed for the inaccuracy of their 'reporting', they run and hide by claiming that their shows are 'opinion', and that there should be no expectation of accuracy

      I do not see any other News program using that same excuse, so NO I am not a partisan shill and yes the other NEWS networks are many scintillas better

      Maybe you missed this story yesterday:
      http://idle.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=10/07/14/1235220

      It seems the people get so accustomed to the lies that Fox spreads, that they are unable to accept the truth when they are exposed to it. If that is not damaging America, then I do not know what would

      --
      Wherever You Go, There You Are
    4. Re:Not to put too fine a point on it... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      MSNBC is better than Fox News?

      Hahahahahahahaha!

    5. Re:Not to put too fine a point on it... by Nutria · · Score: 1

      they run and hide by claiming that their shows are 'opinion'

      Their most popular shows (O'Reilly and Hannity) are opinion. To see them as anything else is the height of folly.

      --
      "I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1
  71. Phraseology by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 1

    They also fell heads-over-heel for Obama

    Hmm... as a USAican, I say that phrase as 'head over heels'. Was that a typo or another example of two peoples separated by a common language?

    1. Re:Phraseology by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was waiting for a pedant to jump on that typo

  72. Wait, how many tits? by xigxag · · Score: 1

    Get your ass to Mars.

    --
    There are two kinds of people: 1) those who start arrays with one and 1) those who start them with zero.
  73. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  74. Do you feel any pain? by turkeyfish · · Score: 1

    Its Ailes, Roger Ailes. The hyper-partisan republican hack, who Murdoch uses to extort the wealthy, or anyone else with even a little cash, to drive his advertising rental business.

    If you are suffering from past 10 years of that I'm sure you're eager run out and get yourself a paying subscription, at least now you know what ails you.

    They have their own cable networks so you can get subscriptions to those as well, even by gift-cards for friends and family.

    These people have no limits the insatiable appetite that is their greed knows no bounds. Even governments bow before them.

  75. Great News! by oldmac31310 · · Score: 1

    I am very glad to hear of Mr. Murdoch's failure.

    --
    http://www.acetonestudio.com
  76. Doesn't everyone just read the BBC News website? by rklrkl · · Score: 1

    I thought most people in the UK read the BBC News Website daily and rarely go to newspaper Web sites? I know I do and if I want to read other angles on a story, I go to a UK news aggregator like UK Google News or News Now. I never used The Times Website before it went paywall and I'm sure that's the case for almost everyone else out there too. It'll be interesting to see what happens when The Sun goes paywall - that demographic might not be smart enough to realise where the BBC/Google/NewsNow sites are :-)

  77. Newscorp by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why would I pay to read news from a "news" organization that has argued that it has a right to deliberately lie or distort the news to suit its advertisers? http://www.purefood.org/rbgh/akre022603.cfm If I want to read fiction I will go to a site that tells me that it is fiction - and be willing to pay for that.

  78. Murdoch technique by pademelon · · Score: 1

    The Murdoch model that has worked in the UK and Australia and has been less successful in the US is to buy enough of the media outlets to have real political power - and to use it to obtain concessions (ie monopolies) that allow him to dominate the home entertainment media market. He has had no compunctions about slanting the news to suit his political ends - not only to suit advertisers - while claiming that his editors have editorial independence. It is notable that all but one of the Murdoch newspapers were strongly in favour of the war in Iraq - the exception being in Papua New Guinea! Now that it is easy to compare several news sources his technique works less well. It is notable that he failed to give the Tories an outright majority in the UK. Had he done so I'm pretty sure it would have been curtains for the BBC. With the Libdems holding a balance of power that's less likely to happen but I've no doubt he'll try. On the other hand the Times Crossword is be best I know! Sad that it has to be in such a lousy "news" source.

  79. I tried reading TFA and heres what I got by myowntrueself · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Ok right at the top of this 'journalists' article:

    Will his paywall work is the biggest story in the media business, and it would be quite a journalistic coup to document the progress, or lack thereof, that's being made in trying to convince a skeptical world to shell out 2£ ($3) a week for what's heretofore been free.

    If this is the kind of crap that 'free' journalism produces I'd gladly pay for something written by someone who can actually construct readable sentences...

    This guy is a blogger who likes to think he is a journalist. Ehm... like most of them I guess...

    --
    In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
  80. Fuck Murdoch by thetoadwarrior · · Score: 1

    Did he really think anyone wants to pay for his awful news? I'm glad it's failing.

  81. Umm.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think most of the Free World would have preferred rather more conclusive evidence of Cheney's death beyond the possibility of resuscitation in this or any other universe before tripping the hammer on George II. Tossing his carcass into the centre of the crater of an active volcano, immediately after DNA matching and continuous video coverage from that point until said carcass sinks into the lava seems a reasonable minimum, given that nuclear atomization has certain additional, undesirable side effects. But you get the idea.

  82. Its just news by JustNiz · · Score: 1

    News is available all over the internet for free.
    Why would anyone pay to read it just at one site?

  83. Re:Doesn't everyone just read the BBC News website by _Shad0w_ · · Score: 1

    I read BBC News and The Guardian. I'm not a great fan of the new BBC News site though.

    --

    Yeah, I had a sig once; I got bored of it.

  84. If that were true... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They would have done the same thing to Obama, but they didn't. He's even less qualified than she is.

  85. Your history is confused. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "as such the so-called "Independent voters" broke for Obama."

    Actually, they had already moved to Obama during the Democratic Primary. Palin was a bit of a "hail mary" for McCain, clearly it was not done with the proper vetting. It was either going to be a home run or it would explode. It exploded. Even Republicans didn't support her as a VP choice.

  86. Oh stop covering for them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Senate Democrats did not vote for the Iraq War because they believed in it"

    They believed in them as much as Republicans did. And I mean that every way possible.

    The Democrats are every bit as culpable for the mistake called Iraq as the Republicans. Every bit.

  87. From "off the top of" your trolling head? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Coming from "off the top" of your trolling head is actually and truly the bottom of the barrell, silanea. Get over yourself, because you're one of the most unintelligent idiots around this website, bar-none.