Dell Drops Ubuntu PCs From Its Website

Barence writes "Dell has stopped selling consumer PCs preloaded with Ubuntu from its website, and doesn't know when they're coming back. A search for Ubuntu on the Dell UK website returns only one laptop — the Dell Latitude 2100 from the company's business range. Dell insists that it's continuing to sell Ubuntu systems, but only over the phone, and has no idea when — or even if — the Ubuntu PCs will return online. 'We've recently made an effort to simplify our offerings online, by focusing on our most popular bundles and configuration options, based on customer feedback for reduced complexity and a simple, easy purchase experience,' Dell told PC Pro. 'We're also making some changes to our Ubuntu pages, and as a result, they are currently available through our phone-based sales only.' The move comes after Dell put a page on its website advising customers only to go for Ubuntu if they were interested in open-source programming."

Comments

it doesn't make any sense because

[BroadbandBradley]

Microsoft Windows is really so much harder to use than Ubuntu. Everything on Ubuntu just works, and you have to fuss with windows to get it to do what you want, keep it from getting a virus, hunt all over the web to get software updates.....

I think the only reason Dell does this is because Windows is setup like a toll booth where you have to pay extra to get it to do anything useful or keep it running. With the Ubuntu Boxes they don't sell any add-on software because Ubuntu already has everything it needs to work.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the only reason Dell ...

Don't forget that computer retailers like Dell get paid a lot of money to pre-install bloatware, e.g. all those trials, links to subscription services, etc. Even if the customer never buys any of these, Dell doesn't get that money for Ubuntu PCs.

Wouldn't be surprised if MS made an offer to "more prominently" position Windows or grant Dell some "MS premium platinum reseller" PR-badge either.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[calzakk]

Who the hell modded this insightful? It's hilarious!

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[loafing_oaf]

Dell could simply adjust the Ubuntu PC prices to compensate for the missing bloatware revenue. Of course, they probably would sell even fewer that way. But with Dell's just-in-time supply chain, it really shouldn't matter whether any particular models sell well because there's no inventory buildup or waste to worry about.

As for Dell's claim of reducing complexity... it's a single link on the side of the page! At the risk of sounding cliche, I think it's more reasonable to assume that there is some supplier exclusivity contract in play from Microsoft.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[couchslug]

Windows works for people who know Windows and have no need to invest time in anything different. The faults we find in Windows don't concern them enough to switch to something not Windows.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you seriously think people don't do that?

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[Lance_Denmark]

'Microsoft Windows is really so much harder to use than Ubuntu. Everything on Ubuntu just works' This just isn't true though. Sure you might have to do more things to protect your Windows machine than your Ubuntu, but when you do need to do anything, even mundane things, with Ubuntu it's much more complicated for the average user (think the sort of character whose computer spends more time as a botnet than not). Mention to my Dad, or many of my less tech-savy friends the concept of 'sudo' and they'll just glaze over. For most people it's Windows that 'just works' not Ubuntu.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[thetoadwarrior]

It's not what's easier it's the simpletons that just click on things and end up with an Ubuntu computer and freak out because it's not windows.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[IANAAC]

Mention to my Dad, or many of my less tech-savy friends the concept of 'sudo' and they'll just glaze over.

"Run As Administrator".

But his eyes would probably still glass over at that too.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[GameboyRMH]

I think that's what they do, when i bought my sister's Inspiron 10v with Ubuntu last year, the price was only about $20 less for the Ubuntu model IIRC. Mind you the factory-supplied Ubuntu installs are still stuffed to the gills with crapware, i just wiped it and reinstalled from scratch since it needed upgrading anyways.

And I remember clicking on a link about how to choose your OS and reading that you should "choose Windows because $typical_marketing_spiel, or Ubuntu if you're into open-source programming." |:-|

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[__aaqvdr516]

In the words of Wolfgang Pauli, "you're not even wrong." However, if you wanted to stay open source on Windows, you can do so. The notion that Windows is a toll booth is a bit off the mark also. Right now I'm dual booting Ubuntu and Vista. The only thing I've paid for in the last two years between Windows and Ubuntu is the OS itself. Everything else is open source or provided free of charge by Microsoft or another third party.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[jo42]

Microsoft Windows is a conspiracy between the hardware manufacturers and Microsoft to make you have to buy new hardware every couple of years. Best example was going from XP to Vista. XP ran fine. Vista came out and ran like a one legged man in a marathon. Everyone had to buy new hardware to run it.

Think about it: Do you really need a quad-core processor with 8GB of RAM and a 1.5 TB hard drive to browse the Internet, watch IdiotTube (AKA YouTube) videos and fap to porn?

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[Smivs]

My favorite game works just fine on Ubuntu.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[whisper_jeff]

Microsoft Windows is really so much harder to use than Ubuntu.

I don't know how this got modded insightful but, as someone who has computers with Mac OSX, Windows XP, _and_ Ubuntu, I'm going to have to say that's so utterly wrong that it's actually funny. I like Ubuntu and I look forward to the day that it truly hits the mainstream but it is not, in any way, easier to use than Windows. It may be the easiest of the Linux distros to use (I have no clue if it is since it's the only one I've ever played with to any degree); it may be easy enough for the average person to use; it may be incredibly easy for a hardcore computer user to use, but it is not easier to use than Windows.

I don't like Windows, at all, but let's be serious...

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[lovenhim]

I feel that the reason Dell is doing this is simply because of money. It is all about the Benjamins. They make money on Win7 and then money on software, and then more money when people call back for tech support on some virus they picked up.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[Yaa 101]

They can't invest time in learning something new because they are too busy removing crap.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[Devout_IPUite]

Pretty much. The linux devs don't realize that they're making cludget unfriendly processes. Number of clicks matter. If I can't, without a manual, install program X onto my computer in 3-6 clicks, it's too hard. "Oh just use the package manager" No. I want to go to their website and click the fucking download button. Then I want to open that downloaded file. Then I want it to install. Anything else is unacceptable for a typical user.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[whisper_jeff]

To me, what immediately put it as "not easy to use" was the moment that I realized I needed things like "sudo" or any other commands to make things happen. Once Canonical realizes that the average user _NEVER_ wants to enter commands to do run of the mill, average stuff, then they'll truly be a long way towards having an easy-to-use OS. I found myself trying to get things to happen with Ubuntu, being forced to resort to Google (a sign things may not be rosy but not surprising since I had zero Linux experience until I installed Ubuntu on my Wind), and found that the way to make "this" happen was not selecting a control panel but to open a Terminal session and entering a complex command that I would never, ever remember.

Average users don't want to ever, ever, ever use Terminal. _NEVER_

Power users, who truly push machines beyond what is considered "normal" use, are fine with using Terminal because it doesn't scare them but the average computer user, today, does not want to open Terminal and enter any command.

Once that's sorted out, then Ubuntu (or whatever Linux distro figures it out) will be a long ways towards being easy to use.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[kyrio]

Earlier this month Dell uploaded the marketing page you mentioned. You must have some super powers to have seen it last year.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[maxwell demon]

So the solution would be to write bloatware for Linux and pay Dell to install it on their Ubuntu PCs?

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[Anonymous Coward]

You can. They're called .deb packages. Download, double click and GDebi installs it (and still pulls in dependencies for you!) and you're done. However, you are installing a random package from a random website and you don't know if it will work or if the dependencies it needs are available. The package manager gives you a centralized and searchable listing of packages, and most of them are sure to work with the system, unlike a random .deb off the net.

Your argument is empty and false because you can do precisely what you want to do, exactly as you seem to want to do it - It's just not the best way.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[GameboyRMH]

This was on dell.ca and buried pretty deep in their product info pages.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[maxwell demon]

"Give the computer special permission to do certain potentially dangerous things." Doesn't sound very complicated to me.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[The MAZZTer]

ya rly

Here's how my comparison stacks up, personally. (I consider anything that requires the console to fix in Linux but not Windows permanently broken for the average user):

1. My monitor doesn't go to sleep. At all. Power Management settings do nothing. I have to use the console command xset, but whoops, I have to do it again at every boot and resume. Adding the command to gdm and pm-suspend startup scripts has no effect. Oh yeah, and using 900 seconds for 15 minutes seems to never actually wait 15 minutes but sleeps sooner.
2. Sometimes it just won't come back from resume at all, although it mainly just happened once before video drivers were installed.
3. When I boot, sometimes the network will randomly decide to not start connected. This can be fixed from the network tray icon but it is not very intuitive and will greatly frustrate an average user.

Perhaps the problem is that there is a LOT of hardware out there to test, and Microsoft simply does a better job with hardware compatibility. No year of the Linux desktop this year imo, but Ubuntu is definitely making right steps in that direction with 10.04.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[Locutus]

there is _that_ but there is also the problems Dell has been having with Microsoft and how they'd been stating how viruses are made for Windows and so Linux is a more secure option. This is an easier option and probably brought Dell some income for doing so.

we also can't forget that Steve Ballmer himself said they Microsoft is pointing all guns at smartphones and tablets and will not be out done this time around. The way I read that was that they'd be back to paying companies to put Windows 7 and Windows Phony 7 on devices at the exclusion of others. Like Linux, and any Linux based product( Android, ChromeOS, etc ). Look for a new Microsoft sticker on all new Dell computer boxes. It'll probably be worth a few million to Dell. IMO

LoB

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[rolfwind]

Microsoft Windows is really so much harder to use than Ubuntu. Everything on Ubuntu just works, and you have to fuss with windows to get it to do what you want, keep it from getting a virus, hunt all over the web to get software updates.....

I've used a lot of OSes in my time, and there is no way Ubuntu is easier than Windows 7 (a major improvement over XP) on anything but the security front. I tried the latest Ubuntu LTS and it actually seemed a downgrade of the Ubuntu a few years back - a lot of things that used to work just didn't. For instance my dual monitor setup, it insisted that it make my right side monitor the main one (where the main drop down lists are), perhaps because it was the analog one while the second one was the DVI port (the video card insists on putting the bios startup on the same one). I tried changing this many times but it never took effect - it was so bad that I couldn't even drag programs or files from one window to another.

This type of thing always worked seamlessly in window ever since I had Dual monitors and I could configure them how I wanted to. It also used to work in Ubuntu, even with the Nvidia drivers.... there's also a bunch of things, but this is one concrete example that comes off the top of my head.

Ubuntu is great, but it's still catching up to Windows/OS_X, and I hope the day comes soon.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[eulernet]

Windows is setup like a toll booth where you have to pay extra to get it to do anything useful or keep it running.

Not exactly.

It's mainly for educating users, I mean consumers.

Educating users that software is not cheap and must be bought to do anything useful.
It's better to teach them as soon as they start using computers, so they'll continue paying when they'll be more experienced, the more the merrier !

And in the same process, they learn that free software is a bad thing:
  this software is free, and this one costs $30 ? Sure, give me the one at $30, its cost surely means that it's better !

Anything that is good for Microsoft is good for the software industry, right ?

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[Locutus]

that bloatware is where things will get interesting with ChromeOS. All that bloatware brings in a onetime income to the OEM but with the ad income Google can provide with ChromeOS, these OEMs will see continued income from long running products and they won't need to rely so much on pushing new sales upgrades so much. A good example of what ad supported income can do is just to look at The Mozilla Foundation income. Those $50+ million come from Google via that little default search box in the upper right corner.

So, with the one-time income of a PC sold with bloatware and Microsoft marketing kickbacks be enough for them to turn away ChromeOS based products with a steady stream of income from Google based on ad views via search or other simple ad based apps?

People may hate Google and think they are the bad guys but little do they know that without them, Microsoft would continue to crush every new idea out there because they didn't invent it, or it does not run solely on Windows. IMO.

LoB

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[CronoCloud]

To me, what immediately put it as "not easy to use" was the moment that I realized I needed things like "sudo" or any other commands to make things happen.

Usually, if you use the graphical system configuration tools, it will prompt you for the root password.

Once Canonical realizes that the average user _NEVER_ wants to enter commands to do run of the mill, average stuff,

The terminal can be faster and easier to use, really, even for a newbie. It can also be easier to describe in written form or verbally how to do something by using a terminal. For example, If I wanted to tell you how to check the status of the cpuspeed service (which controls the dynamic speed scaling) it's easier for me (and faster for you) to tell you to: sudo service cpuspeed status

I found myself trying to get things to happen with Ubuntu, being forced to resort to Google (a sign things may not be rosy but not surprising since I had zero Linux experience until I installed Ubuntu on my Wind), and found that the way to make "this" happen was not selecting a control panel but to open a Terminal session and entering a complex command that I would never, ever remember.[/blockquote>

Google can be the best way to find out how to do something in Linux, because people often write on how to fix issue or HOWTO's on how to do something. And even if the terminal command is complex, you can always keep a log of that sort of thing, if in the future you might need to do it on a new install or something. The Terminal also has a command history. for me it's 1000 command lines.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[RobertM1968]

From what I understand, Microsoft also offers "rebates" to hardware computer vendors that are primarily or entirely Windows only. It's the loophole in their consent decree (rebates instead of discounts).

It is conceivable that the public exposure Dell's Ubuntu pages made caused one of two scenarios (or a combination of both):
(1) Someone at Microsoft pointed out to Dell that their Ubuntu efforts (especially with Linux becoming more widely known) was flying in the face of Microsoft's rebate terms.
(2) Someone at Dell feared that the news exposure their Ubuntu offerings were gaining would cause backlash with Microsoft, and thus minimize or eliminate what "rebates" they were getting on Windows preloaded systems.

More information (with appropriate login) can be found on Microsoft's pages located here: Microsoft OEM pages where such wording as "This campaign is designed to help you communicate the value of Windows 7 Professional ... OEM Software Rebates Accelerate your OEM Sales and earn rebates!" (direct and full quote (from the rotating text at the top), including the use of ellipses) can be found.

"Help you communicate," has been determined by others to mean "Dont offer competing operating systems such as Linux so you dont "confuse" buyers with any option other than Windows" - such statements (and such a definition of the meaning) can be found by searching the web - often attributed to Microsoft themselves. Makes Dell's statement kinda suspicious in who actually came up with it.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[whisper_jeff]

Perhaps you missed my point. You have no problem with it. I have no problem with it. You and I are not "average" computer users. Ask yourself if it would be overwhelming for your mother to use it. Ask yourself if the counter clerk at the DMV or the bank would find it easy to use. Ask yourself if a truly average user finds what you've described to be easy.

What power users find easy and what average users find easy are different things. This perception difference is what has holds Linux back, more than anything else.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[maxwell demon]

I actually don't understand the common fear of the command line. Indeed, I'm much more frightened to modify some random registry entry with close to zero documentation (and usually a more than cryptic name) than typing a command where I can get at least basic information through the man page. Why should it be less frightening to click on something with a cryptic name than typing a cryptic name? Moreover, if I happen to miss the thing to click on, generally I'll click on something else which most likely will do something I did not intend, and I might not even have an idea what exactly I did, if it has a negative effect (which I may find out about maybe much later), and how to undo it. If I mistype a command, the chances are quite high that it simply won't work (although I have to admit that the most basic commands on the Unix/Linux console are not exactly ideal in this respect).

But then, I grew up with computers which expected commands to be entered (either BASIC commands for the early home computers, or DOS commands for the early PCs) to do anything.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[XnavxeMiyyep]

OK, but is this on a homebuilt PC or on a pre-sold Dell? I would imagine Dell would install the proper drivers to get it to work properly.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[Kijori]

Microsoft Windows is really so much harder to use than Ubuntu. Everything on Ubuntu just works, and you have to fuss with windows to get it to do what you want, keep it from getting a virus, hunt all over the web to get software updates.....

I think the only reason Dell does this is because Windows is setup like a toll booth where you have to pay extra to get it to do anything useful or keep it running. With the Ubuntu Boxes they don't sell any add-on software because Ubuntu already has everything it needs to work.

I've been using Ubuntu since 2006 and this claim is, frankly, laughable. Go to the shop and buy some shrinkwrap software - chances are it won't work on Ubuntu. Now buy yourself a new webcam, printer and scanner; unless you checked beforehand at least one of these is likely not to work, and it's unlikely that any of them will work perfectly. These issues might seem trivial to someone who's used Ubuntu for a long time and either knows what works or at least knows to check, but for a new user it's a big deal.

Second, Ubuntu users are generally assumed to be computer-literate and to have deliberately chosen Ubuntu, which implies that they know the ins and outs of Linux distributions and technologies. This leads to help files that are unintelligible to anyone who doesn't know a thing about Linux - amarok is "a qt media player based on the KDE 4 technology platform", for example, and if you want to install a new chess program you can choose between "X11" and "Gnome" versions. (What does that even mean?). Similarly, help files and forums have people running shell commands and editing configuration files - that's just voodoo to a totally new computer user, and if nothing else ingraining a "just run whatever the forum tells you as administrator" mindset is not good.

Contrast this with Windows: if you go to the shop and buy new software or hardware it's almost certain to run on your computer with nothing more than a few clicks to install it. And if you run into problems the instructions and help files assume no computer literacy - and every man and his dog knows how to use Windows, so there's no shortage of people to help you.

I like Ubuntu; I use it every day and have done for four years. But denying its faults - and it has plenty - is enormously counterproductive. For you, Ubuntu's lack of available software has turned into "[w]ith the Ubuntu Boxes they don't sell any add-on software because Ubuntu already has everything it needs to work"; for one of the replying ACs the lack of hardware support has become "[t]he 'my wi-fi doesn't work under linux crowd' just need to be more careful and not buy shitty wi-fi cards". These are legitimate problems, and denying them can only set Ubuntu development back and alienate people who have tried the OS and had problems.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[Kijori]

As for Dell's claim of reducing complexity... it's a single link on the side of the page! At the risk of sounding cliche, I think it's more reasonable to assume that there is some supplier exclusivity contract in play from Microsoft.

I'm not so sure. It would take very few people ordering Ubuntu because they hadn't understood the difference for the support costs to outweigh the extra sales; this would explain their move to sell Ubuntu only over then phone, since it allows people to buy Ubuntu PCs if they really want to while preventing any possible misunderstandings.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[Lennie]

"Perhaps the problem is that there is a LOT of hardware out there to test, and Microsoft simply does a better job with hardware compatibility." You are kidding right ? A lot of drivers is still just reverse enginered, but the drivers for Windows are written by the manufacturer of the hardware, I think you could even say 'designed for windows', literally.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[Lennie]

Do you really think sudo is ever mentioned in the user-interface ? It maybe what is going on in the back, but in the user-interface it just says: enter your password to perform administrative tasks

Which works just fine, thank you.

Also I don't know why you are complaining, because Windows Vista, Mac OS X have something similair.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[Zaiff Urgulbunger]

I've often thought that the problem with OEMs selling Linux is that they try to sell it cheaper than Windows. I can't help thinking that Dell would be better shipping Ubuntu on their nicer looking hardware (e.g. Dell Vostro V13 which isn't expensive and it looks quite nice) and then charge a premium for it -- explain it isn't Windows, and explain it is a robust OS which is perfect for most home users. Because it is!

I mean... basically, this is what Apple does and it seems to be working well for them. Instead, pretty much all the OEMs see their margins getting squeezed and yet none seem to be able to think of any new ideas. Dell's best idea is to charge for customised covers for their machines... which isn't a bad idea, but really it isn't gone to save the company. And where Sony produce nice looking hardware, when netbooks started to take off, one of their execs stated that he thought it was the start of a "race to the bottom" because all he could see was a price war I guess.

And before anyone says... but then people would buy a Windows machine and install Ubuntu on it themselves... who cares? Dell would still profit either way and most users aren't smart enough to do that.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[CrkHead]

And it makes complete sense because...

Dell tech support found that many people did not know what "Ubuntu" is when ordering their laptops. If you've ever worked a consumer helpdesk, this will not surprise you. Keeping the option available over the phone will improve the chance that people ordering Linux computers understand that Windows is not included.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[Lennie]

A common example:

On Ubuntu visit this page:
http://www.google.com/chrome

click 'Download Google Chrome'
click 'Accept and install'
(a standard browser window popups telling you you are downloading a deb-file)
click 'open in gdebi installer'
click 'install package'
it asks for a password
the package is installed and it's available in the menu in the top left, under the 'internet' section
done

what is your point ?

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[hitmark]

scanners, printers and webcams are the areas where one see most proprietary protocols over a dumb serial connection these days. Even when all of them come with a usb connector, they all talk some proprietary binary stream that then gets translated in software into whatever generic "standard" microsoft have provided at the software end. Basically, much of the heavy lifting is actually done in software, in much the same way as back during the winmodem age (basically a el-cheapo sound chip with a rj port rather then a audio jack). I wonder how many linux drivers there are that support basically the same hardware in various injection molded plastic; once they figure out that what the USB id say, and whats actually inside are two different things.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[toygeek]

As a long time Linux lover, I couldn't agree more. I've seen Linux on the end-user desktop. Its NOT pretty. "I bought this printer at Best Buy and they said it would work with my computer but I plugged it in and nothing happens."

Its a great OS, but it won't be ready from prime time until HP and other consumer oriented vendors start bundling complete software suites, drivers, and support for Linux on a CD or DVD that comes with the printer and installs with a few mouse clicks.

And they'd all better agree on a distro, and even though Ubuntu is a strong candidate, if Grandma is running Mint or Peppermint because Mega Uber Geek Extraordinaire Grandson thinks its best, god help her to get support for it.

As much as I hate to admit it, Windows 7 is far more polished than any Linux distro I've run, and 99% of the time it *just works*. No, its not Linux. Yes, I miss the CLI and bash scripting to my hearts content. But, Grandma Betty doesn't, and never will.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[blackest_k]

sudo is not really any different from any other password system. Ok the dialog box asking isn't quite the same as on Windows Vista, or 7 or OSX but the principle is the same.
raising privileges to perform an administrative task.

Things really are that simple in most cases, plug in my new kodak camera recognized pretty much its a mass storage device. If I use picassa I can import and post the photo's on the net. Printers and scanners just plug and play (if they are not lexmark).

It's a shame that Dell are choosing to hide away its 100% Linux compatible hardware.
  A good compromise would be to supply with Windows 7 restricted edition and mention in the technical specifications compatible with ubuntu version x upwards.
Thats enough for me to know if a Dell is suitable for my needs. After all why not take the free windows 7 license and dual boot or virtualise Windows 7

The fact Dell is choosing to hide its Linux capable hardware speaks volumes.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[hitmark]

no need, as HP are supporting CUPS, the printing system that apple apparently liked enough to buy (after being used on *BSD and linux for years).

i think both gnome and kde will present you with a nice "new printer found, configured" message if you plug in any recent HP printer in a distro with a reasonably up to date distro. Heck, lexmark is funny enough well supported via cups, tho i wonder if their brand have forever been tarnished by their early windows products (big, messy drivers with talking control panels).

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[hobo sapiens]

Mine too: http://sc2.sourceforge.net/downloads.php

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[hitmark]

the interaction between xorg and the linux kernel have been changed recently to help avoid issues related to the handoff of video card management between the two. The classical X way was to assume full control of the video hardware, requiring root access rights and so on. this meaning that if X failed, there was rarely any chance to get access to any kind of CLI to look at error messages or recover the system without a full reboot and FS cleanup.

The change is that the kernel now handles all the low level bits like setting resolution and such. This means that if xorg fails for whatever reason, its easy to restart it without having to restart the whole system. But in the process some features where lost, with one or more related to how multi-monitor setups where managed.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[darkpixel2k]

Microsoft Windows is really so much harder to use than Ubuntu. Everything on Ubuntu just works, and you have to fuss with windows to get it to do what you want, keep it from getting a virus, hunt all over the web to get software updates.....

I think the only reason Dell does this is because Windows is setup like a toll booth where you have to pay extra to get it to do anything useful or keep it running. With the Ubuntu Boxes they don't sell any add-on software because Ubuntu already has everything it needs to work.

No, the only reason they dropped Linux is because Ubuntu Netbook Remix is a piece of garbage. I have been using Linux for about 10 years, and my wife has been using it for about 5. I bought her a Dell mini a few weeks ago. She used it for a day and said it was garbage. I looked at it for a few minutes, and it felt like I was playing with a kids toy or a pocket organizer from the early 90s. I grabbed a 'real' copy of Ubuntu, loaded it on the mini, and now my wife loves it.

Dell and Canonical killed Linux on Dell by shipping the worst interface since MS Bob.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[Yacoob Al-Atawi]

I don't see any need for you to muck with registry in the first place. Most of the stuff you use a CLI for will be available through the GUI of whatever program you use or the OS itself.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[hobo sapiens]

I too have an aging XP/Ubuntu box. I have never had to pay for software to keep windows running.

That said, I think the point is that you and I are not typical users. We know what kind of software is necessary to keep a windows PC running, and how to choose free alternatives and how NOT to get sucked into McAfee or Norton.

For average users, choosing free antivirus and firewall programs that aren't nagware or some type of scamware is just as hard as using the Linux CLI. How many people have downloaded those stupid PC Speed Booster programs that advertise in the form of banner ads that look like system dialogue boxes? Obviously a lot, because those ads are *still* around. Or they just pony up and buy worthless antivirus programs from the big boys.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[dissy]

. "Oh just use the package manager" No. I want to go to their website and click the fucking download button. Then I want to open that downloaded file. Then I want it to install. Anything else is unacceptable for a typical user.

That will simply never happen.

We did have a few Linux distros that tried, but pretty instantly they were ignored by the Windows users after still getting viruses and having all the same problems Windows has, which they heard Linux does not have, and the Linux users knew they just added every problem they left Windows to avoid back in.

It quite correctly failed.

Part of the Linux mindset is the security. If that feature is the one thing you list that makes it unacceptable, then we are sorry but we are at an impass.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[Charliemopps]

My guess is people were choosing Ubuntu without realizing what it was, getting home and fining out they could install anything or transfer their old software to it... then calling up Dell and complaining. Windows makes Dell money while Ubuntu was probably generating a lot of customer service calls. I doubt their support staff even knew how to trouble shoot it.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[Stray7Xi]

If I can't, without a manual, install program X onto my computer in 3-6 clicks, it's too hard. "Oh just use the package manager" No. I want to go to their website and click the fucking download button. Then I want to open that downloaded file. Then I want it to install.

Are you kidding? Windows is a nightmare for this. Sure you can download and start the installer like you say. Then you agree to terms of service (scroll down because they won't let you check box), then you can click I agree. Then you set where you want it to install, and where in start menu. Uncheck the place shortcut on desktop and quicklaunch. Uncheck the view readme button and click finish. Adding all the next buttons that's probably a good 20 clicks. Don't even get me started on updates after this.

Compared to ubuntu where it takes fewer clicks to install the program then it takes to open a browser and get to download page on windows.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[maxume]

So if I understand extrapolation correctly, you are saying that any game anybody tries on Linus will work just fine.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[tepples]

I would imagine Dell would install the proper drivers to get it to work properly.

If Dell installs only Windows, as the article states, then obviously Dell doesn't install the proper drivers into Ubuntu.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[hobo sapiens]

This GP and reply is the poster child for why people still think of Ubuntu as hard to use.

GP: "Average users don't want to ever, ever, ever use Terminal. _NEVER_ "
Reply: "The terminal can be faster and easier to use, really, even for a newbie."

Gah!

Imagine this playing out in a restaurant.
Customer: "I would like the taco salad, but without tomatoes"
Waiter: "I see. You know tomatoes are really good for you? I see you ate your salsa. Therefore, you'll have no problem with tomatoes on your taco salad."
Customer: *leaves*

See? It's absurd in any other context. I agree with GP: people want to click on a download button on a web site. That's it. It doesn't matter if it's logical or not. People are illogical.

Delivering an OS to the masses is like delivering any other kind of product. You give people what they want. If you say that all users of your OS should have to, at some point, use the CLI, then you also implicitly said that you do not want to deliver linux to the masses. If you do not want linux for the masses, then why do we keep hearing stories like this one?

Personally, I prefer linux over windows and I don't give a crap about Dell. They are soon to be irrelevant anyhow. Linux is fine as a geek oriented desktop OS and as the only serious choice for servers. If people don't want to use Windows (and they shouldn't) let them pay for a Mac.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[hitmark]

i sometimes wonder if we had been better off is we had never left the os-on-rom era...

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[tepples]

I don't want to play Smivs' favorite game. I want to play my favorite game. It is neither Oolite nor The Ur-Quan Masters.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[hobo sapiens]

And yet, after using linux for years, I have never personally seen this done on any website. That said, I prefer apt-get anyhow. But I am not most people.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[daveime]

Even the registry has a graphical treeview ... And what is so cryptic about navigating Local Machine, Software, Microsoft, Windows, Current Version, Run to edit those startup programs ?

As compared to ls -l /etc/init.d/rc.d/ or whatever the hell named directory where Linux stores the startup commands ?

Blinkered much ?

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[Draek]

Try doing tech support sometimes. Your view of Windows is tainted by your own proficiency with it but I assure you: the average person cannot use Windows, and no, you can't be said to know how to use Windows with a malware-filled machine any more than somebody whose car is full of bumps and signs of crashes can be said to know how to drive.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[Kjella]

Where's the "preaching to the choir" mod? I've used Linux on my primary desktop for over two years now, and know for a fact that "Everything on Ubuntu just works" is bullshit. And 99% of the time you get absolutely no
help on how to fix the issue because everybody assumes you're using Windows or the official client and not whatever Linux clone. Like a trivial example, I can't send files in Kopete over MSN at more than 0.5 kB/s, any standard method like ftp or irc or whatever works fine. And the obvious answer is that it's not the software's fault that I'm trying to use a proprietary MS-only protocol that's poorly reverse engineered. But the point is that the world does not revolve around me, everybody else won't adapt to use software that works with me. I'd not recommend to any of my less technical friends to run Linux, sometimes I just have to stop and say "This thing just will not work on Linux". I know that, try working around it and know there's alternative software, WINE, Virtualbox and dual boot, but sometimes I just have to admit there's no application like this for Linux and it doesn't run well on anything but Windows. That's a hard pill to swallow.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[surferx0]

Why would this be more of a problem with a Linux PC than a Mac? Do people really call Apple to ask why they can't install their favorite Windows applications?

"I was able to use all these applications and games on my old Dell, then bought this new Dell and nothing works on it."

I used to work at a consumer electronics retailer and I can tell you that Apples are marketed and sold as Apples, something totally different and separate from a PC. PCs with Linux are sold as PCs...with Linux, which means nothing more to the consumer than a PC with Intel, a PC with 4GB RAM, or a PC with a DVD+/-RW drive. It's still sold as a PC, and that is the problem.

Consumers cannot comprehend what an operating system is, and Linux will never gain traction in the home unless someone steps up to market it as an entirely different product.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[arose]

Perhaps you missed his point. The graphical tools are quite straightforward, it's what the average user is expected to use on their own accords. On the other hand when the average user needs help and is chatting with an power user, it can be faster and less frustrating for them to copy-and-paste then to try to describe where exactly they are and what they see. Preferably the power user should explain that it either is doable via graphical tools and this is just easier for them to describe or the problem is above the average users head to begin with, and it doesn't make a difference (the windows equivalent is digging into the registry, some problems can't be solved otherwise).

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[Smivs]

So if I understand extrapolation correctly, you are saying that any game anybody tries on Linus will work just fine.

Sadly not. Far too many games are produced by narrow-minded companies who can't be bothered to make their games work on all O/Ss. Their loss, of course, not mine, as I take the view "If they don't care about what I want, I don't care about what they're peddling."

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[couchslug]

"They can't invest time in learning something new because they are too busy removing crap."

Not very many of them remove it, they just shitcan their expendable computing appliance when it bogs down too much. More free stuff for me. :)

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[couchslug]

After investing about the SAME TIME AND EFFORT, I find Linux as easy to use (and MUCH easier to install (though most Windows users don't install their own OS) than Windows.

Don't discount the shitload of time (even for technically inclined people who think it's fun) it takes to be comfortable with a new OS starting from scratch.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[arose]

And I'm not sure about Ubuntu, but from my experience with Redhat, what a version is outdated and end of life 12 months after it's released, come on, you guys SERIOUSLY think people will go for that?

If you aren't familiar with a modern GNU/Linux desktop distro, as opposed to the Redhat enterprise testing grounds, and can't be bothered to do even elementary research into the matter then your opinion carries no weight. Ubuntu's Long Term Support releases are supported for 3 years after the release for desktop installations. It's not quite XP, but then again, you don't have to get a new machine or pay several hundred dollars for a box mostly filled with air when you are ready to upgrade.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[Omestes]

HOW COME MY GAME DOESN'T WORK?

And generally it still don't, even under Windows. That is unless you crack open the case and put in a video card, mess with your drivers, and had the general foresight to actually buy a computer with enough horsepower to play games (meaning your technical knowledge is slightly above nill).

And in some games, even through Steam, run around finding the executable and messing with command augments and compatibility modes. And even them some of them died for completely mysterious reasons (damn you Torchlight!)

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps the problem is that there is a LOT of hardware out there to test, and Microsoft simply does a better job with hardware compatibility.

You make it sound like Microsoft writes all the drivers themselves.

Hardware vendors just don't write Linux drivers for a number of reasons. The perceived market is small. Binary drivers are shunned and require continued maintenance do to the rapid development kernels and distributions. If they go the open road they may need to worry about patents agreements, NDA agreements, etc they made with third parties. They also need for their source to be approved by the kernel gods which is a higher entry bar than getting a binary driver signed by Microsoft.

What the kernel needs is a stable (for a relatively long time--measured in years) way for driver modules to link with the kernel instead of every driver needing to be compiled for that specific kernel. Yes I know that will cause the sky to fall because hardware companies will be able to push out binary drivers.

If its such a terrible thing to have binary only drivers, then find a way to make Adobe flash not work too. Find a way to make Opera not work. Find a way to make Wine not work (It practically ONLY exists to run binary only software). Get rid of those VMs if they are able to run Windows. So on and so on.

It really is amazing how much binary only software people run on Linux but as long as its not a driver it's perfectly ok.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[arose]

Actually webcams are finally starting to be USB Video Class devices, and just work like USB sticks have for years. You still have to make sure you get one, but the situation is improving.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[irid77]

Perhaps you missed my point. You have no problem with it. I have no problem with it. You and I are not "average" computer users. Ask yourself if it would be overwhelming for your mother to use it. Ask yourself if the counter clerk at the DMV or the bank would find it easy to use. Ask yourself if a truly average user finds what you've described to be easy.

What power users find easy and what average users find easy are different things. This perception difference is what has holds Linux back, more than anything else.

Here's the problem with your argument: the people you're describing are horribly confused using Windows too. All they can really do effectively is open programs and use them, and maybe hunt around in folders for files to open. They wouldn't be able so set up a machine with Windows or Ubuntu, but they can use both just fine. Seriously, what about the Windows UI makes intuitive sense and is missing in Ubuntu? What is hard to accomplish in Ubuntu that is easy in Windows?

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[Risen888]

How in God's holy name is that simpler than Ubuntu Software Centre? Open the program. Pick a category. Pick a program. You are done. If your precious "number of clicks" truly do matter, then you're doing it wrong.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[Risen888]

To me, what immediately put it as "not easy to use" was the moment that I realized I needed things like "sudo" or any other commands to make things happen.

No you don't. You enter your password into the box that pops up that says "enter your password." You know, kinda like on... uh, Windows... except that they stole the idea from us.

In short, you are full of crap.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[Smauler]

Comparing virus rates on Windows and Linux is useless... There are millions of clueless windows users out there who will install whatever pops up on their screen. Linux users are generally more savvy. I've personally run Windows (2k and Vista) for over 10 years, with no AV, and I have been pretty careless in terms of updates (I generally never touch updates unless it fixes an issue I need fixing). I do however run more reliable 3rd party software (Firefox, Foxit, etc). I had one virus scare about 5 years ago, when one of the popular viruses of the day managed to find its way onto my system somehow - I know my system relatively well, and knew something was wrong... It took all of 1 hour to remove, with no corrupted files.

I buy all my software OEM with hardware - much of what is wrong with windows installs is not windows itself, it's the crap that comes with it. The biggest problem with the PC market is shitty retailers throwing out "high spec" computers which are far from... It makes ignorant users assume you have to get a new computer every year. Dell is far from the worst in this, though they are culpable to some degree. However, Dell is one of the leading villains in terms of AV kickbacks... their systems are loaded with so much bloat it's suprising they boot.

For why I still run Windows : Ubuntu does not play the games I want to play. I know it's a chicken and egg problem, but sorry, it just doesn't. Secondly, when I installed my OS last (a few years ago admittedly) Ubuntu did not support fakeraid - it was apparently possible to get it working, technically, but it was requiring proper in depth knowledge - not first time installers knowledge, especially on a stripe that already had something on.

Apart from early installation problems (original Vista64 would not install (BSOD) with nVidia chipset motherboards with over 4gb of RAM - try to diagnose that bastard :P) I've had few problems... my system restore has gone tits up, which I have to fix sometime soon though... meh maybe you're right :P.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[Risen888]

I sell machines with Ubuntu on them. To yoga instructors and flight attendants and 85 year old women. It's easier. Universally, across the board easier. Every single customer says so. You don't have to trust me, but I trust them, because they pay my rent. I mean, if you're comfortable being out-geeked by an 85 year old great grandma, okay, but don't blame the machine.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[ooshna]

Lol there is a difference between easy to use and easy to keep virus free, You have to remember that Dell's primary consumer are computer novices at best. Most computer users would freak seeing a CLI and like being able to buy whatever software they see in BestBuy and just install it.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[Smauler]

From what I understand, Microsoft also offers "rebates" to hardware computer vendors that are primarily or entirely Windows only. It's the loophole in their consent decree (rebates instead of discounts).

This is blatant monopolistic malpractice, and whoever thinks it should continue is plain wrong. Either the laws aren't working right, or they're not there in the first place, in which case they should be. Laissez Faire does not work.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[RedHat Rocky]

My mother and father have both been using Ubuntu (on a Dell purchased WITH it) for a couple of years now.

Other than occasional Flash issues, they get around just fine.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[trickyD1ck]

This is blatant monopolistic malpractice

Because Freedom of Association is only valuable if you personally benefit from it. Otherwise it is a Monopoly!

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[trickyD1ck]

Q.E.D.

Guess we can all go home now.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[cyberthanasis12]

You do not give a reason why Windoze is easier. I will give you one why Linux is easier. My 8 years old son, has installed SuSE 11.3 in 3 computers today. Complete with all the applications. And connected to the internet. And 2 of the computers are laptops. In half an hour (for each computer). So, please. At least in slashdot, people have a clue.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[LingNoi]

Everything on Ubuntu just works

Well here's a list of stuff I can think in lucid that was either broken on launch or still hasn't been fixed in the default CD.

- Gwibber using 100% CPU
- Samba either not working or using 100% CPU
- Brasero can't copy any CD's to an image file
- Ubuntu software center not displaying the correct button when installing software

So, yeah, as a long term Ubuntu user I'm calling you out on your bullshit. Ubuntu has a ton of problems and Canonical deserve what they're getting with their attitude of 'release first, fix next release'. Hopefully dell dropping their OS will make them rethink putting out stuff without testing software that's on the default CD.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[Shikaku]

Opera, Chrome, Truecrypt, Getdeb, Playdeb

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[LingNoi]

Here's how my comparison stacks up, personally. (I consider anything that requires the console to fix in Linux but not Windows permanently broken for the average user):

You have to use the console on OSX to do stuff too and nobody complains. Showing hidden ".dot" files, get the javascript debugging console in safari, etc you need to drop to the terminal.

I doubt it's an average user problem and just your personal problem.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[LingNoi]

- Then suddenly no companies make open source drivers because they can release a closed source one and forget about it.
- Suddenly the kernel can't be updated because it breaks half the closed source drivers.
- Is it a bug in the driver or the kernal, no way to find out!
- Suddenly we have 200 mediocre closed source drivers all doing the same thing slightly differently rather then one source driver driver doing things well.
- Suddenly the linux kernel only works on the hardware supported by the closed source drivers

Hence why they do what they do.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[daeglo]

Printers and scanners just plug and play (if they are not lexmark).

You are aware of exactly who makes the "Dell" branded printers and scanners, aren't you?

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[cronius]

The other weekend I was staying at a hotel on work related business. When I was checking out the hotel guy asked me what kind of work I did and I said I was a computer programmer. He started asking me about a windows server problem they were having, and I said I only know Linux and that the company I work for specializes in it.

At this point he told me that he had just switched permanently to Ubuntu, and that he was really enjoying the experience. He made the switch after his pirated copy of Windows stopped functioning due to an "anti-piracy" update. It was the final straw he said, because he was sick of all the troubles with Windows and sick of things not working (granted it was his own fault that he used a pirated copy of Windows, but honestly how many home users actually use a legal copy of Windows that didn't come preloaded with their computer?).

We had a long talk and it was really encouraging to hear how this Windows user had taken the step on his own to switch to Linux. He said the last time he tried out Linux he was forced to mess around with the command line and was positively surprised that he didn't need to touch the command line with Ubuntu, everything was either GUI-based or Just Worked. The only thing lacking was proper support for games, but he said he just used the x-box or playstation for gaming anyway, so it wasn't really a concern for him. In other words, he was happy with the transition.

Success stories like that makes me think Canonical has done a lot of things right, and are bringing Linux ever so closer to the final frontier: The average Joe. It's a confirmation that Linux is on the right track. And I find that very exciting.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[Smauler]

Are you trolling? Freedom of association is so far from what I was referring to that I can't believe you misinterpreted so badly.

Freedom of association protects conglomurates, and I agree with freedom of association. You're confused about what a monopoly is, and what monopolistic influences can do to an economy, if you think that they are a figment of my imagination.

Monopolies _kill_ economies.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[LingNoi]

Not sure what you're whining about but there are these things called 'deb' files. You can download them from websites and click on them to install software.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[daeglo]

but finding software is still easier for Windows users if it isn't in your repo's

Having used nothing but Linux outside of the office for the last 6 years, I was wondering just the other day how Windows users find software. Honestly, I was digging through the mountains of software available in YaST trying to decide what I was going to install and check out for the day when the thought came to me. I'll be the first to admit that not all Linux software is what I would consider functional, let alone useful, but when I need a program for pretty much any task, I can usually find it quite quickly. If it's not in the official repo's than it is likely in PackMan. (OpenSuSE user)

It actually seems quite quaint to go to a store and interact with a person to receive software.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[LingNoi]

Once Canonical realizes that the average user _NEVER_ wants to enter commands to do run of the mill, average stuff, then they'll truly be a long way towards having an easy-to-use OS. I found myself trying to get things to happen with Ubuntu, being forced to resort to Google

You can say the same thing about OSX. You need to some times enter commands on the Mac to do things, I also had to google them up. I don't see you or anyone else complaining about that however or pretending it's some kind of barrier to entry on using an Apple computer.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[yuna49]

but honestly how many home users actually use a legal copy of Windows that didn't come preloaded with their computer?

Nearly most of them I'd expect. You need to spend some time with people outside the computer industry, most of whom use the computer as it comes from the factory.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[daeglo]

Anybody want to post their bookmark list of Microsoft KB articles which specifically REQUIRE entering the registry to resolve? I'm no where near the office right now.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[yuna49]

I don't usually respond to myself, but I see I misinterpreted the parent's comment.

My comment concerned the vast number of users who do use the copy of Windows that came preloaded on their computers. I'd bet the number of ordinary folks out there using some other copy of Windows is pretty small.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[LingNoi]

Off the top of my head.. Chrome, Dropbox, lots of open source projects, nvidia's software, flock player, etc..

http://www.google.com/search?&q=filetype:deb

Google shows plenty of debs, in fact more then OSX's dmg format.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[daeglo]

I agree with your printer argument, but not your HP example. I will ONLY buy HP printers for Linux machines as they are very nicely supported by CUPS and HPLIP. The last inkjet I bought actually had .rpm and .deb drivers on the drivers disc.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[Macrat]

Mention to my Dad, or many of my less tech-savy friends the concept of 'sudo' and they'll just glaze over.

The command line should never be spoken of outside the bat cave.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[yuna49]

Many older people have lots of experience with using the command line under DOS. They managed to copy files to floppies with commands like "copy myfile.doc a:" and didn't die from the horror of the experience. Some of them learned about things like autoexec.bat and config.sys, too. We're not talking about advanced users or computer aficionados; we're talking about secretaries running WordPerfect and archiving documents to floppy disks.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[waveclaw]

From what I understand, Microsoft also offers "rebates" to hardware computer vendors that are primarily or entirely Windows only. It's the loophole in their consent decree (rebates instead of discounts).

In the music industry, that home to paragons of higher morality like the RIAA*, they call this a payola scam.

But why should you expect different behavior from a monopolist that was convicted by a court then who fully ignored that court?

It's good to be king, regardless if your throne is built on hard work or the heads of the peasants or office and operating system bundling. After all, laws are for other people.

* for new to the Internet or the Irony deficient I suggest you search this very forum for that term.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[yuna49]

In Kubuntu 10.04, I can go to System Settings in the main menu, pick Startup and Shutdown and use a graphical tool to alter the list of programs that start at boot up. Yesterday I was talking to a friend who wondered how to get her Windows computer to stop running a bunch of nagware for programs she doesn't want and never used. She has no idea why these programs start or how to keep them from reappearing at each boot. The Registry? Not something she's ever heard of.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[Cerium]

OS Installation. Seriously.

I've attempted to install the various forms of Ubuntu a number of times over the last few years and every single time has failed during installation/setup in some horrific and, somehow, unique way. And the best part? Posting anything on the Ubuntu "support" forums gets me treated like a retard by the community, regardless of how in-depth and/or technical the content of my post is. Oh how I love being told to "make sure the thing I burned to a CD was actually an ISO" and "follow the on-screen directions" when the issue is Ubuntu treating my three independent drives as if they were a single disk in a RAID array.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[shutdown -p now]

And hence why you read this story on Slashdot.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[FoolishOwl]

I'm sick of hearing this nonsense.

In a fresh install of Windows 7, I need to download or purchase and install an office suite, an archive manager, a program to display Acrobat files, a photo editor, and several other applications and utilities, and a few device drivers. Each is a separate installation process from a different Website.

In a fresh install of Ubuntu Linux, all of these things are already installed.

To install additional software in Windows 7, I have to find the Websites to download them from. In Ubuntu Linux, everything is in the repository.

A recurring problem with Windows is version conflicts between DLLs. In Linux, installation, removal, and resources are all managed by the package manager.

Windows 7 has some good points. But it's much, much easier to get a working system set up with Ubuntu Linux.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[toygeek]

I happily stand corrected. The case in point was an Asus EeePC with their own distro. What a nightmare that was for the lady who had it.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[FoolishOwl]

It can also be easier to describe in written form or verbally how to do something by using a terminal.

That's a major advantage. Support forums for Windows have to rely on series of screenshots, plus descriptions, or else grainy YouTube videos. For Linux, it's just, "copy and paste this to a terminal prompt."

Well, except I'm starting to see instructions for Windows that refer to the command line, and there are Ubuntu tutorials that do new users the "favor" of using screenshots and narration instead of commands for the terminal.

Frankly, people just need to get over the idea that there's anything scary or primitive about the terminal. People still read books after the invention of television.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[blackest_k]

I wasn't , thanks for being so informative.
http://www.pacificink.com/link.php?pg=dell-faqs

Quite often I hear people moan but Linux doesn't support Lexmark printers , the link i've given says nothing about Linux drivers it's purely about the merits of buying a Dell printer which are Lexmark manufactured.

The printers are sold cheaply but are expensive for ink and toner so are not recommended for windows!

To be honest a mono Lazer printer is fast and economical and generally gives years of service. Its probably worth paying for professional color printing when it's really needed.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[mister_playboy]

Delivering an OS to the masses is like delivering any other kind of product. You give people what they want.

Bullshit. These people don't know what they want. That's why advertising is so important, so you can tell them what they should want.

Windows' popularity has nothing to do with "giving people what they want", and everything to do with advertising.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[twidarkling]

Microsoft Windows is really so much harder to use than Ubuntu. Everything on Ubuntu just works,

I'm almost positive I've seen this exact post before. And it's still fucking wrong because my soundcard STILL doesn't work in Ubuntu.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[Svartalf]

Actually, they also install Ubuntu and Red Hat Enterprise on their systems- especially if you're a medium to large enterprise customer. Dell has more RHCE's than Red Hat or most other organizations you care to count.

What's odd is the behavior here. Had to be MS that leaned on them with this one. I just wish that these companies would come forward on this explicit violation of the Anti-Trust laws that we're seeing the circumstantial evidence of with all these goings on.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[mspohr]

Package manager is easier but if you insist you can download the deb file and click it to install. This is two clicks. You do lose the security of the PM but since you like Windows you should be fine with that.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[Kagetsuki]

That's an interesting perspective, but you need to consider that since you can get Ubuntu for free after the fact simply purchasing the Windows version and then installing Ubuntu afterwards would get you twice the operating systems at the same price. Also, installing Ubuntu after Windows is fairly easy, whereas installing Windows after Ubuntu requires you screw with booting into you Ubuntu install using external boot media and then restore the boot loader after the fact.

I think it would be good if Dell did not offer an Ubuntu pre-installed PC, and instead offered you options on the first boot: install Windows only, Ubuntu only, or install Windows and Ubuntu (and have a slider to select how much of the drive you want to give to each). Include Windows install media or a media creator under Linux, have the windows serial on the bottom of the box so that if someone goes Ubuntu only and after-the-fact wants to put the Windows install they basically paid for on the machine they can.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[cmwalden]

This to me is sort of the object lesson for a lot of this discussion. Sometimes these things are like family reunions where people make judgements about you because of something that you did in Middle School, even though you're now grown with two kids. This technology stuff moves quickly! If it's been even a year since you've seen something you can bet that it's different now. I know that I've found Windows a lot more obscure since I've been away from it for a few years.

I should think that what we would want is for anyone to pick any environment they wish and have it work with whatever technology that they wish. We've overcome a lot of hurdles. Think of the difference that USB has made in how we think about plugging things into our computer. (Remember when you needed a screwdriver and a level of static-consciousness to add anything to your machine?) Now, USB things, for the most part, just work, whether it's Linux or Windows or whatever. Everyone can work with JPEGs, no problem! Remember all the little graphic formats that used to float around because it was all destined for the printer anyway? Look at what PDF has done to make documents universal. It's all getting better as standards evolve.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[rtechie]

The terminal can be faster and easier to use, really, even for a newbie. It can also be easier to describe in written form or verbally how to do something by using a terminal. For example, If I wanted to tell you how to check the status of the cpuspeed service (which controls the dynamic speed scaling) it's easier for me (and faster for you) to tell you to: sudo service cpuspeed status

CLIs are not easy to use. They are hard to learn by almost everyone, therefore they are not "easy". CLIs can very often be faster and more convenient for learned users, but that's not the same thing.

Yes, in your example it is somewhat faster for a tech support guy using email to send a command (especially a long command with lots of flags) to a user and tell them to enter it in verbatim. This is a great system if you want a tech support guy to literally hold the hand of the user through every minor configuration. Frankly, if you're going to do this just SSH in and do it FOR him. It's the same thing.

There is a "past" that existed before there were GUI operating systems, and these systems were NEVER configured by "average users" at all. First off, the "average" user was a full-time computer professional. They, as full-time computer operators, did pretty well with CLI. Look at a more realistic example, like dumb terminals connected to an IBM running MAS90 accounting software. Ask those accountants how easy that CLI is to use. Ask them how much they like function keys and having to remember arcane character sequences.

When using a CLI you essentially have to learn a completely different language. "sudo", "cpuspeed", etc. are hardly obvious commands (let alone options and syntax) you could somehow guess. The "average" user has little talent or interest in learning obscure "CLI languages" (that's why they're not computer professionals) which means that, in practice, he'll have to laboriously look up the every single command, and it's syntax and options, every single time he wants to use it. This is simply not faster than clicking through menus with item descriptions, even a bunch of menus. Yes it might take more time than using a CLI command, but it will take a lot less time than LEARNING the CLI command.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[PinkyGigglebrain]

A few months ago I installed Debian/KDE 3.5 on a clients computer because she HATED Windows 7, said it was such a pain to use compared to XP.

I showed her my laptop with KDE running and she liked it so she had me put it on her desktop system. After a hour or so showing her around and loading the software she wanted, Firefox, Thunderbird, Open Office and GIMP (she was thrilled that she didn't have to shell out for Photoshop to edit her photos) she started poking around.

3 months on she loves it, say's its much better than Windows 7 was and she is quite happy with it.

Oh, and she is 84, not a geek/nerd/techy, she is in fact a writer/amateur photographer who's computer skill level could be said to be about average.

Anyone can USE Linux/KDE/GNOME, its getting the it installed, configured and getting any new hardware installed that takes a tech, after that its as easy/hard for the average user as Windows is.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[Matt Perry]

Microsoft Windows is really so much harder to use than Ubuntu. Everything on Ubuntu just works, and you have to fuss with windows to get it to do what you want, keep it from getting a virus, hunt all over the web to get software updates.....

Given my experience, I have to disagree with your comment. I just switched to Windows 7 after two years of using both Ubuntu and Debian and I'm much happier on Windows. There were a handful of things in Linux that just weren't working correctly for me. After two years, I just couldn't take it any more, spent the money for Windows 7 and made the switch. It wasn't that much of a learning curve (I had used XP in the past but only Linux since then) and it helped that I could still run all the applications that I ran on Linux (Firefox, OpenOffice, VLC, Calibre). Hell, I was able to copy over my Firefox profile and it "just worked," extensions and all.

Linux was just too expensive for me. I spent hundreds of hours filing bug reports, responding to developers, testing, documenting, writing and submitting patches, etcetera ad nauseum. If those had been billable hours, I would have earned a small fortune. In the end it was far cheaper to spend $150 on Windows and be done with it so that's what I did. I'll give Linux another look in a few years and see if it's shaped up, but for now my needs are met and it was worth the price.

I think the only reason Dell does this is because Windows is setup like a toll booth where you have to pay extra to get it to do anything useful or keep it running.

There is enough free software (both libre and gratis) available on Windows that one doesn't have to spend any extra money.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[JohnBailey]

So if I understand extrapolation correctly, you are saying that any game anybody tries on Linus will work just fine.

Depends.. How busy he is. If he has some other demands on his time, if he is in the mood for playing a game. And of course, how much he objects to having someone try to insert a CD in his person.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[shnull]

who cares, let them eat cake, it's not as if ubuntu's going anywhere and besides : flawed os means more jobs in IT :) it takes only one good admin to run a decent server farm but you need a lot of helpdesk for ppl who don't know their pc from a calculator. I say let them have it, Linux didnt get any worse over the last years because it has a great community that believes and sticks to it, making it better out of 'devs-honour' and sense of achievement instead of need for profit. It's bound to surpass windows like this, anytime. If people prefer to install on os that's over a 100 euros with an office suite they only use about 5% of for an extra 100 euros, why not? It's Darwin all over again :p

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[Bungie]

I'm not afraid of the registry and use it for a lot of things, but there's no need to manually edit the registry to enable/disable startup items when there are easy to use GUI tools included with Windows. MSCONFIG is pretty popular and easy to figure out. A really easy troubleshooting step is to have them hide all Microsoft startup entries and then hit "Disable All". Then you can slowly work back and re-enable any third party entries that you discover you actually need. You can also edit the startup items fairly easily under the Windows Defender control panel. Any other entries related to drivers and services can be edited through their appropriate MMC snap-ins and are under the Administrative Tools section of the control panel.

I also usually like to install Mike Lin's Startup Control Panel on people's systems so they can find it easily and it has a pretty solid interface for editing startup items. SysInternals autoruns is the most powerful startup editor but is a bit too advanced for some people to use (since they can disable a lot of things they probably have no idea about like WinLogon modules).

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[the_womble]

Number of clicks matter.

It takes fewer clicks to install software on Linux.

No. I want to go to their website and click the fucking download button

That assumes you already know the right website to go to. How many clicks and typing does it take to find the right website, and to find out whether you are downloading real software of malware?

Anything else is unacceptable for a typical user.

Yes, we all know that only hard core geeks use the Iphone app store (which works exactly like a Linux repo, except for the added step of paying).

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[the_womble]

I like Ubuntu and I look forward to the day that it truly hits the mainstream but it is not, in any way, easier to use than Windows.

Of course a Windows geek who has spent years learning Windows finds it easier to use. Most people are not geeks at all, and they find Linux easier.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[the_womble]

What power users find easy and what average users find easy are different things. This perception difference is what has holds Linux back

I agree: power users who know Windows really well find it hard to adjust to Linux. Average users find Linux easier but rarely get a change to try it, partly because of bad advice they receive from power users.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[bytta]

On that note, it is worth mentioning that the slashdot front page currently has a story where "Dell Settles with the SEC for $100M" because they were getting shitloads of money for keeping away from AMD CPUs.

It is conceivable that:
(3) they got a similar deal for their choice of OS.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[fishexe]

From what I understand, Microsoft also offers "rebates" to hardware computer vendors that are primarily or entirely Windows only.

Rebates of this sort were considered illegal back when Standard Oil was involved with them. If only we still had antitrust prosecutors willing to actually enforce antitrust law.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[fishexe]

Think about it: Do you really need a quad-core processor with 8GB of RAM and a 1.5 TB hard drive to browse the Internet, watch IdiotTube (AKA YouTube) videos and fap to porn?

Yes. Clearly you haven't seen the kind of porn I watch.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[fishexe]

I like Ubuntu and I look forward to the day that it truly hits the mainstream but it is not, in any way, easier to use than Windows...it may be easy enough for the average person to use...but it is not easier to use than Windows.

Not easier in any way? You mean, not easier for my dad to use without getting viruses? Not easier for my sister to use for her schoolwork? Does it matter if they find it easier, or are you God's appointed arbiter of ease-of-use? Do you have examples of aspects where Windows is easier? I'm sure you do, but you seem to want to withhold them and still be taken seriously. It would be a lot easier to buy what you're saying, though, if you provided some sort of substantiation besides "duh!"

I don't like Windows, at all, but let's be serious...

Yes, let's. By all means.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[fishexe]

...if you wanted to stay open source on Windows, you can do so....The only thing I've paid for in the last two years between Windows and Ubuntu is the OS itself. Everything else is open source or provided free of charge by Microsoft or another third party.

I am intrigued by your thesis, and want to know more. Please explain how running free-beer closed-source programs on a closed-source OS can be considered "staying open source".

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[GameboyRMH]

I went with Dell for my sister's laptop because they had the cute little netbook she wanted and it was cheap. I was aware of the Linux-only laptop resellers but the Inspiron 10v looked like a damn good deal and my sister was in love with it so I didn't shop around.

More recently I was looking to get a new laptop for myself and I did check LinuxCertified, EmperorLinux, and every other Linux laptop seller I could find (including Dell, who had only 1 model with Ubuntu at the time), and found a common pattern - I would be paying out the ass if I bought from them.

I ended up paying the Microsoft tax on my laptop because I would have had to pay $200-$500 more to get a similar laptop from one of the Linux boutiques, and when you're shopping on a $600 budget that's a lot of money.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[Avreaux]

Follow the money, Occam. Could just be they were not selling well. Wait, this is Slashdot ... the global conspiracy to keep the Linux Man down is surely afoot!

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[st0nes]

If I can't, without a manual, install program X onto my computer in 3-6 clicks, it's too hard.

You should love synaptic--you can install with 2 clicks.

"Oh just use the package manager" No. I want to go to their website and click the fucking download button. Then I want to open that downloaded file. Then I want it to install. Anything else is unacceptable for a typical user.

The package manager is how it's done in Linux. If you want to do it your way instead of using the tools that were designed to make it easy for you, then don't be surprised if it's more complicated than you'd like. To use any computer you have to bring a smidgeon of intelligence to bear.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[LaRainette]

lol what terrible argument to make your case...

A. there is also such a thing is win7 it's called "Run as administrator". Plus the UAC is a pain in the ass if you do not turn it off which is not "easy" (i.e. hard to find)
B. You can use Ubuntu for years without even knowing what sudo is. I wouldn't say it is the way to do it, nor is it really the spirit but it's totally possible.
My sister has been using Ubuntu everyday as her main OS, since 8.04, and she NEVER used the command line , and she doesn't know what sudo is (although I tried millions of times to explain to her how amazing of a tool the command line is)

If you want to advocate the simplicity of windows over Ubuntu for example I think you're just left with hardware support (especially GPUs) AND the "used to" argument.
This one is totally my favourite : "blahblahblah Win7 is easier because people are used to windows"...
With that kind of reasoning we would all still be using Nokia 3210 or Moto V3...

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[LaRainette]

You don't have to !!!
As stated on a comment above my sister's been using Ubuntu since 8.04 so that would be 2 YEARS as her main OS and she never used the command line. >br> You don't need it to install apps, you don't need it to update your apps, you don't need it to customize your environnement, you don't need it to upgrade your version of Ubuntu !
There is a graphical tool for each and every general use and maintenance task.

THE ONLY THING needed to use Ubuntu (or fedora, openSuse, etc..) is to be able to remember a password. It's not that hard.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[LaRainette]

Your first argument was really funny and insightfull and to the point and amazing.... in 1999.
COME ON PEOPLE ! I've been hearing the same arguments about Linux since Y2K !
You don't think it has changed since then ?
Nobody EVER tries to convince the newcomers to use the command line anymore. That's why there is a Graphical tool for everything in Ubuntu

Take a random machine, and install Ubuntu 10.04. Don't read a tutorial, don't read anything just try. And tell me how hard it is.
For christ sake my 9 years old brothers did it...
On a not so rusty machine it take less than 20 minutes (compare this to installing Win7 !!!)
once you're done there is an app center that is basically the same as (and the precursor of) the App store. Are you telling me the App store is something HARD to use ?
And then the OS updates your applications, drivers, and core items of the OS by itself, you just need to say "Yes I want to update" enter your password and boom.

How easier can it get honestly ?

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[rtechie]

"That's why there is a Graphical tool for everything in Ubuntu."

No, there isn't. That's, in part, why Linux Mint exists. To add graphical tools to areas Ubuntu doesn't cover. And Mint doesn't get everything either. Last time I used Mint, I had to use the CLI to configure various multimedia crap and Samba (and other stuff). This was to do the incredibly complicated task of playing a video file over the network.

"On a not so rusty machine it take less than 20 minutes (compare this to installing Win7 !!!)"

20-30 minutes is the average install time for Windows 7. More importantly, it's a lot easier than it used to be. Install process:

1. Boot PC with Windows 7 disc in drive.
2. Click "Install".
3. Enter user name and password.
4. You're done.

The Windows 7 installer is vastly improved.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[helios17]

I am the Director of a Texas non profit that refurbishes cast off computers and gives them to kids who cannot afford them. We load a customized version of Linux Mint on each of them and to date, we've placed just over 1100 machines. the problem isn't between which is harder, it simply comes down to what the user is comfortable with. We spend less than 30 minutes with the child and parent and show them how it works. There is no drama, there is no angst...once they know how it works, it works for them. A few minutes of mentoring and instruction make all the difference, Are you going to get that with each new computer Dell or anyone else sells? Of course not but the fact remains that Windows Users are not a lost cause. When I have 12 year old kids picking the system up in minutes, The "Windows is harder than Linux" myth evaporates.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[TheABomb]

On my Linux/KDE systems, I go into the Dolphin/Konqueror graphical file manager and hit Alt-. or click "View > Show Hidden Files" and files with names starting with a period show up. Does OSX seriously not have that basic functionality? I mean, it wouldn't surprise me, seeing as Apple makes phones that don't work if you hold them in your hand and their minions love the design flaws, but c'mon!

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[kyrio]

I do believe you are a liar.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[jawtheshark]

because Mega Uber Geek Extraordinaire Grandson thinks its best, god help her to get support for it.

No, God doesn't need to get into the game at all. If Mr Geek does that he becomes by default the support of the person for whom he installed $Distro.

I did install Ubuntu on both my moms desktop and my mother in laws desktop. My own mother never calls for support, she gets along very well. My mother in law calls in for support and you know what kind of questions she has? Simple: How do attach a file to an email, or why a certain website doesn't work. First one, is a matter of pratice and eventually she'll learn. The second one you could blame on Ubuntu/Firefox, but no... That wasn't the problem. The web site tried opening a popup for some critical function. Firefox asked to whitelist the website but she simply didn't see the bar on top of the page. Internet Explorer 6 here would have been a big help indeed, IE7 and IE8 not so much because they do exactly the same thing.

From that point of view, the support questions I have under Ubuntu and Windows are exactly the same... Well, with the small exception that I don't need to come over and clean up her machine every three months. Actually, if you know how to set up a Windows XP machine with Limited Users, you don't even need to do that... I know how to do that, but it is very hard to explain to people that they need to shell out 100€ for Windows and another 200€++ for Office.

I did set the default "save" format of OpenOffice to .doc and .xls because she has to share work with other teachers. That said, that world is completely computer-ignorant and a great many people use Macs... (Resulting in sometimes funny situations where files arrive without extensions which other people can't open, etc...)

They call me if they need to know something or if they want to buy hardware. Recently she called me to know if she could buy a new mouse, because to an end-user, it is impossible to know that any mouse would work. Windows or not... Same thing happened with an uncle of my wife who runs XP (I built his machine back in the day). His LCD screen was defect and wanted a new one. Instead of just going out and buying a new one, he called me and I said: don't worry, just buy one on sale, it will work.

Of course if you're the kind of person who doesn't want to help the people you set up with a computer, then don't do that and send them to an Apple store immediately.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[TheABomb]

Bullshit. Have you bought a new computer with Windows pre-installed in the last decade? You don't get an actual Windows disc, you get a "system restore disc" that wipes everything to the factory-default state. All they have to do is offer to sell those "very few" upset consumers one of those for whatever the price differential was, and suddenly Dell gets its bloatware commissions, too. Win-win for everyone except technology!

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[LinuxIsGarbage]

I agree that giving copy & paste CLI instructions can be the fastest way to relay help. However to the user it still looks like "magic". If you're navigating through configuration dialogs, the user may see what type of things are in there, and where to look for other settings. With CLI instructions, it's copy and paste with no understanding. Of course if you're giving user instructions to navigate the Windows registry, that's just as cryptic as many Linux CLI / .conf instructions, and people would be better off using the "reg" CLI tool to shortcut the unnecessary clicking.

I'm a Windows poweruser who tries to use CLI when it's faster

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[LinuxIsGarbage]

And most of these "secretaries" were infinitely grateful to have a GUI now so they didn't have to use cryptic command

I like CLI, you like CLI, the average user hates it, even though some familiarity with it would be beneficial.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[LinuxIsGarbage]

Pretty much. The linux devs don't realize that they're making cludget unfriendly processes. Number of clicks matter. If I can't, without a manual, install program X onto my computer in 3-6 clicks, it's too hard. "Oh just use the package manager" No. I want to go to their website and click the fucking download button. Then I want to open that downloaded file. Then I want it to install. Anything else is unacceptable for a typical user.

Which is why Apple's App Store is a huge flop.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[LinuxIsGarbage]

Users don't read dialogs. They try to do whatever possible to dismiss it as quick as possible, without reading it. http://blogs.msdn.com/b/oldnewthing/archive/2003/09/01/54734.aspx http://arstechnica.com/security/news/2008/09/study-confirms-users-are-idiots.ars

As well particularly verbose errors are ignored. The whole thing is a big problem because it makes it very difficult to protect users against themselves if they willingly agree to install malware, and ignore security warnings. This is why fake AV software "XPAntivirus 2019" and the like are so successful.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[the_womble]

I've been using Ubuntu since 2006 and this claim is, frankly, laughable. Go to the shop and buy some shrinkwrap software - chances are it won't work on Ubuntu.

SO new uses need a one minute explanation that almost everything they will need can be installed by clicking on "add programs", or whatever Ubuntu calls it, and they do not need to buy shrink wrapped software.

Now buy yourself a new webcam, printer and scanner; unless you checked beforehand at least one of these is likely not to work

Buy a pile of hardware and some of it will not work with a a Mac. Some might not have drivers for older or newer versions of Windows either.

IN any case it just requires another one minute explanation to tell them that there are websites on which they can check whether hardware works before they buy it.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[Kijori]

I don't normally bother to reply to people who've cherry-picked quotes rather than replying to my post as a whole; I wrote a post, not a collection of stand-alone sentences. On this occasion I'll make an exception, but I'm not going to go into any detail because I don't think you've addressed my actual point.

Unless you are claiming that needing someone to explain to you what software will and won't work is easier, that not being able to buy software at the shop is easier, that having to check your hardware for compatibility before you buy it is easier, and that having to make do with imitations rather than the software that people expect is easier then we're in agreement. For the most part, it's not hard to use Ubuntu, even if there are still far too many things that require the command line or config-file editing or technical knowledge. But to claim from that that it's easier to use than Windows is ridiculous.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[evJeremy]

OS X used to just have a menu item in finder, but they removed it in (I think) 10.4 for some unknown reason. Maybe they didn't want people seeing all thsoe .DS_Store and ._ files that apple likes to litter the filesystem with.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[azrael29a]

Wouldn't be surprised if MS made an offer to "more prominently" position Windows or grant Dell some "MS premium platinum reseller" PR-badge either.

They already put "Dell recommends Windows 7" on nearly every page.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[anton_kg]

Agree, and from the next news, "Dell Settles With the SEC For $100M, intel paid to keep AMD's chips out of Dell's machines" it's obvious that M$ paid as well. Dell acts like a prostitute.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[GameboyRMH]

Reference to the same phrase about the 10v from September 2009:

http://pinklaptopsworld.com/category/netbooks/

But hey, maybe I make this shit up just to stir up some nerd rage.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[LaRainette]

This was to do the incredibly complicated task of playing a video file over the network.

Configuring Samba and crap ?
There are graphical tools to unable media files sharing over the network (nautilus ?), and there are graphical tools to play remotely stored files over the network.
Your argument is the same again : Yes these tools are NOT the same as in Windows. that's because Ubuntu is a fucking different OS.
But don't tell me it's harder to share a file over LAN on Ubuntu than on Win7. It's not harder or more complex, it's done differently and the major difference IMO is you actually see what you do.

The Windows 7 installer is vastly improved.

Yeah... now it's about as easy as it is to install Ubuntu.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[LaRainette]

I cannot believe someone modded you insightful..
don't take it bad but honestly if you bitch about too much command line in Ubuntu you OBVIOUSLY NEVER USED IT (or at least 2-3 years ago).

Please tell me when did you HAD TO use CLI on Ubuntu ? (except to copy paste something some had told you to do on a forum which IMHO is much easier than going through 10 screen shots of the 10 different GUI to do the exact same thing. Not to mention it's the same on Windows : there is a command line, it just sucks.)

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[LaRainette]

Yeah I mean the iPhone success demonstrate how much Joe HATES app store (wait what package manager is an app store zOMG!!!).

Anyway when someone start a sentence by "Linux devs" it usually ends up pretty bad...

BTW if you had ever used a Debian based Linux distro (e.g. Ubuntu, Linux Mint) you would know that a .deb package you downloaded on the editor's website ( à la setup.exe in windows) can be install by double-clicking on it and clicking install in Gdebi...

That's for all your "insight"

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[QuietObserver]

Dell acts like a prostitute.

What do you mean acts like?

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[kyrio]

Touché.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[Billly Gates]

"Everything on Ubuntu just works"

Not in my experience. I have 2 year old hardware so that may make a difference. Ubuntu has been a terrible nightmare for me while Fedora works flawlessly on the same hardware.

Everyone's experience is different but Ubuntu is very cutting edge and I would rate it almost alpha quality. Windows may not be perfect but it works with the hardware and is well tested before it is released.

Most of the pretty UI of Ubuntu is from FreeDesktop.org and Gnome. They are in other distros now. RPM is no longer the bile that it once was and with yum works better if not the same as apt-get.

Ubuntu can give Linux a very bad name if it does not work well and users do not want it.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[hitmark]

and the number of people in the neighborhood they can lean on for a bunch of programs or tech support.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[hitmark]

then spend as much time afterwards DJ-ing driver and program cd/dvd's...

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[CronoCloud]

They are hard to learn by almost everyone, therefore they are not "easy". CLIs can very often be faster and more convenient for learned users, but that's not the same thing.

I wouldn't say that basic usage is hard, sure using more advanced features might be, but basic stuff?

This is a great system if you want a tech support guy to literally hold the hand of the user through every minor configuration. Frankly, if you're going to do this just SSH in and do it FOR him. It's the same thing.

Actually, it's not the same thing, because if you tell them, rather than just SSH in, they get to see the command and you can also explain it and what it does, a la "sudo lets you run commands as root (SUperuser DO), service lets you control system services, cpuspeed is one such service, status tells you the status of the service, you can also stop and start it or other services You can learn more with sudo service --help and man service You might also want to read about chkconfig"

Right there that's useful info, I've just told them all they need to know to start, stop and check services in a terminal.

When using a CLI you essentially have to learn a completely different language. "sudo", "cpuspeed", etc. are hardly obvious commands (let alone options and syntax) you could somehow guess. .......This is simply not faster than clicking through menus with item descriptions, even a bunch of menus. Yes it might take more time than using a CLI command, but it will take a lot less time than LEARNING the CLI command.

You're quite right on the "discoverability" issue of the Terminal. For example, how likely is it one will discover "apropos" on their own unless they've read about it.

But....learning some basic terminal commands can come in handy for even a newbie, and it's really not that hard to learn about ls, cat, less, top, ps, and so forth, or even learn how to use vim in a minimal fashion.

My first Linux was Linux for Playstation 2. I bought the Linux kit wanting to learn about "that Linux thing" people kept talking about on Slashdot, actually didn't own a PC at the time. Before the Linux kit arrived, I bought some books about Linux, Linux for Dummies, Running Linux from O'Reilly and so forth, and read up on it. When it arrived I had it usable within a day, I did my first compile (either gaim or abiword) about a week later.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[mocoloco]

I feel like a broken record because I always have to remind people of this: many of your arguments also go for Mac OS X to some degree. You have to make sure your hardware and software work for it before buying. Carbon apps vs Cocoa? PPC, Intel, or Universal, which do I download? Yet somehow Mac converts are on the rise. Maybe it's because I only need to be told once that universal is what I need to download. So if an Ubuntu user is told "use the software center, if it's not there, download a .deb" I don't think that's too hard.

I do agree the app descriptions like "for X11" are arbitrary, and this is being addressed as a papercut. However, all of the apps in the software center will work regardless of the toolkit (or lack thereof) in their description.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[mocoloco]

When you say Mac OS X has something similar I think what you mean is it has exactly the same thing. Sudo is sudo.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[d3ac0n]

Think about it: Do you really need a quad-core processor with 8GB of RAM and a 1.5 TB hard drive to ... fap to porn?

Actually, you don't even need a computer to do that. A Playboy subscription should be sufficient.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[vuffi_raa]

Microsoft Windows is really so much harder to use than Ubuntu.

I disagree completely, windows does work out of the box, and it does what you want out of the box- it is though like you say, more fragile- that is, viruses and corruptions are easier to attain. Out of the box though you will find more people having an easier time not having to jump to a terminal to install drivers or setup ppa's in order to get their hardware working - this comes from someone who keeps his machine dual booting since ubuntu doesn't provide the functionality I need but using windows for generally surfing the web is like sleeping with a hooker without a condom unless you disable everything which kinda sucks.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[badkarmadayaccount]

Remove pulseaudio.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[twidarkling]

Didn't help then. Trust me. I spent a month troubleshooting it. Every now and then, I'll check on a default install, and it still doesn't work.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[JasterBobaMereel]

They have to do Windows in the main because that's what people want, all the software people will install will work on Windows

Supporting one operating system is easy, supporting 2 is harder, supporting more is much harder ....

Follow the money is the answer, but it is the expense of installing configuring and supporting more than one OS that they are trying to cut down on

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[JasterBobaMereel]

An unhappy customer is a customer who will not buy a Dell next time, and who will tell their tale of woe to everyone who will listen , it does not matter what you do to sort the problem out or how simple it is to fix

Dell becomes the company that ships PC's with non-working parts and tries to push the blame on the user who ordered the "wrong " system and that have to be upgraded to Windows when the customer complains (Regardless of the fact that it did work, probably better than Windows, it was just the user who did not realise what they were buying and paniced when they saw an unfamiliar system)

A customer who does not even realise there is a choice remains happy ...

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[Devout_IPUite]

Installing a random program on the internet and having it go is much easier on Windows than Linux.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[rhomp2002]

I finally sent an email to Dell about their link to Ubuntu computers. I finally had to do a search for Ubuntu to even get to a page that was supposedly where to go to buy a Linux computer. When I got there every singly computer on that page had Windows installed and no mention of Ubuntu. There were no exceptions. This was right after I read the story about choose Windows because or Ubuntu if you are into open source programming. I decided to check out the Linux computers. Could not find any, even where Dell said there were Linux computers. No wonder nobody is buying Linux computers there. If you showed them, maybe you could sell them.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[dfuess]

I've been watching the slow decline of Ubuntu on Dell for the past year. This current move is no surprise. First then towers disappeared, then the XPS M1530 line disappeared, then only the Cannonical notebook remix was available on the Mini, now they remove the last holdout. It could be that they are simply responding to unit profitability requirements as some have suggested in here. I would be more inclined to believe that if Microsoft was not involved in the business decision. MS's business model demands exclusivity and it will bully or buy any technology that threatens even the slightest margin of its market share. Make no mistake, MS hates Linux with a passion as it does any competing technology it cannot control to its exclusive benefit. There remains little doubt that MS weighed heavily in Dell's decision to pull back on, if not out of, their Linux offerings. Dell is only responding to protect it's own market share and leading product line. The Linux community should work to make the competing distros better and easier to install/use/maintain across all hardware environments and expand the number of Linux only hardware distributors by supporting them with your purchases.

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[badkarmadayaccount]

Did you remember to remove asound.conf in /etc?

Re:it doesn't make any sense because

[Lennie]

I was thinking of the GUI actually.

Recently been searching for a new job

[SmallFurryCreature]

I have been on a recent job hunt. Granted, as a LAMP developer. At each interview I asked, is it possible to use a non-windows desktop. Answer: Yes. Mac or Ubuntu didn't matter as long as you could do your job.

These weren't small companies either although they weren't the type to run IE6 either.

There is a slow but steady march towards opensource and for the really old, it is the same march that made Microsoft a household name.

There was a time when if you asked for a DOS machine at work, you would have had to be working in the technological vanguard to get it. Because HERE we use mainframes kid, not this new fangled dos/windows 1.0 stuff. that is kid stuff, for hobbyists.

Dell? Missing the boat. But then, they are being surpassed on every front. I can understand why Dell doesn't want to do Ubuntu, they aren't about giving away free customizations. Sure your dell laptop can be pink, that will be 50 euro's thank you very much. All for a different colored piece of plastic. But when you are at the absolute bottom price wise your are just asking to be picked off by the next guy who can go even cheaper.

I predict that before to long, there will be a chinese company, currently supplying the big names in the west, who starts selling direct. And then Dell will be left with overpriced hardware that doesn't offer anything different.

Re:Recently been searching for a new job

[Nerdfest]

I don't understand why they don't sell it as an option on all on their machines, even if they don't provide software support for it. If nothing else, it would allow them to become a convenient source for machines (especially laptops) for those of us who object to paying the Windows tax. Perhaps if more people tried to return their Windows licence? An added bonus would be to list the Linux compatibility of each of their machines. This would require a fairly minimal effort and would help buyers out greatly.

I actually looked at Dell for a Linux based machine for the last laptop I bought, and I think they had one machine. They never really had enough options to determine whether or not they could have sold very many machines. Seriously, without proving support, wouldn't it really only require a different disk image?

Re:Recently been searching for a new job

[houghi]

Mac or Ubuntu didn't matter as long as you could do your job.

That is why I did not get the job. I am not running Mac, Windows or Ubuntu. I run a different version of Linux.

Re:Recently been searching for a new job

[grahammm]

There was a time when if you asked for a DOS machine at work, you would have had to be working in the technological vanguard to get it. Because HERE we use mainframes kid, not this new fangled dos/windows 1.0 stuff. that is kid stuff, for hobbyists.

I was working as a systems programmer in a mainframe environment in the 1980s and strangely we were the first to get PCs (XTs if memory serves me correctly) as we could use the IBM 3270 and ICL C03 emulator boards and software to have just one box on our desk to provide access to both mainframe systems.

Re:Recently been searching for a new job

[IANAAC]

That is why I did not get the job. I am not running Mac, Windows or Ubuntu. I run a different version of Linux.

And you couldn't get Ubuntu to do/act/feel just like your chosen version of Linux?

I wouldn't hire you either.

Re:Recently been searching for a new job

[nickspoon]

Dell want to guarantee that the machines they sell bundled with Ubuntu are functional out of the box. They have to make sure that the wireless chipset doesn't need funky drivers, that whatever audio drivers get configured correctly, etc. Which is a reasonable thing to aim for, but it does mean that they have to test systems with Ubuntu, and some of their systems will inevitably have some incompatibility (although it's been a while since I've had that issue). Couple that with their tendency to swap out hardware with cheaper equivalents and you've got quite a difficult situation.

Re:Recently been searching for a new job

[DMiax]

I am astonished also by the inability to install Ubuntu's branded themes on another distro.

Re:Recently been searching for a new job

[AnonymousClown]

I keep trying to make my Fedora 12 look and act like Windows 7 - I get beaten up a lot at the local LUG meetings.

Re:Recently been searching for a new job

[jesterpaul]

sudo apt-get install kubuntu-desktop

Re:Recently been searching for a new job

[hitmark]

dell had (and seems to still have on a small number of lattitudes) the option to buy the computer with freedos rather then windows.

Re:Recently been searching for a new job

[hobo sapiens]

Don't buy a Dell. Why would you want to?

Re:Recently been searching for a new job

[hobo sapiens]

uh...it was a while ago, but I was able to install KDE de on my ubuntu machine. It sucked horribly, as all thing KDE do, but I was able. IIRC it was as simple as sudo apt-get install kubuntu-desktop. The only diff between the three distros (hesitant to even call them differnt distros) is the DE anyhow.

Re:Recently been searching for a new job

[Risen888]

Ubuntu is pretty restrictive in some things. Try running KDE in Ubuntu. You can't (you can install the libraries and get the apps running though), that's why there's Kubuntu.

You're retarded.

Re:Recently been searching for a new job

[ducomputergeek]

Given the problems we've had with hardware suddenly not working in Ubuntu from versions 8 - 9 - 10 vs. not having that problem with OpenSuSE or SLED, yeah, I wouldn't run Ubuntu either. It's the flavour of the year. In another or year or two they will do something that will make it "too main stream" and the linux fans will run to another up and coming distro.

Re:Recently been searching for a new job

[billcopc]

Excluding CPU and Ram variations, Dell offers what, a dozen desktop platform and a half-dozen notebooks ? Each one of those sells several million units. Don't you think it would be rather trivial to book ONE GUY (of the 65000 or so people they employ) to do Linux testing on each distinct model ? Hell I could probably do it all in a week or two.

Dell's treatment of Linux overall has been a joke. I've never seen any decent SKU offered with Linux, only the most craptacular bargain-barrel ones like these "laptops" with a single-core AMD processor. What if I want the i7 with 8gb of Ram ? The damned hardware is already expensive enough as it is, I don't need to blow an extra $200 on Windows 7 Ultimate just because Dell thinks I'm a sucker. If they must pigeonhole software with hardware, at least put Ubuntu on the shit ones, and Gentoo on the big ones :) Or better yet: give me a blank hard drive. Naked, empty, unviolated. The first thing most geeks do anyway is wipe the disk and install a clean OS without crapware.

Re:Recently been searching for a new job

[billcopc]

Even if they limited non-Windows offerings to the Latitudes, I'd be fine with it - they tend to have better bang for the buck anyway, but at least do it across the entire product line. Too often I've seen the FreeDOS or Linux option relegated to the catastrophic sub-$500 units, at which point you might as well buy an equally crappy Acer from your local taiwanese PC supplier.

Preinstalled software is supposed to be a convenience, not a shackle. If they're going to do it wrong, I'd rather they avoid bundling software at all.

Re:Recently been searching for a new job

[Rogerborg]

Don't buy a Dell. Why would you want to?

Because when it dies (and it will) and you call it in, it gets fixed the next working day.

So, OK, they sell polished turds, but when your turd get flushed, they'll put a new one in your hands really quickly.

Re:Recently been searching for a new job

[Kagetsuki]

You must not have looked hard enough because the Human themes are available for download on a variety of theme sites. The thing is they are all in components so you have to dig to find all the pieces you want. Of course there are debs as well, so you can just browse the Ubuntu packages and grab the debs - installing them native on a Debian based distribution or with a package importer. While look I'd also recommend the Fedora mouse cursors, they are quite nice.

Re:Recently been searching for a new job

[fishexe]

Try running KDE in Ubuntu. You can't (you can install the libraries and get the apps running though), that's why there's Kubuntu.

False. Every (prefix)buntu is equivalent to installing some set of packages on a stock Ubuntu system, then removing some packages that the default has and the specialized version doesn't (in this case, gnome and its parts). Kubuntu, Xubuntu, Lubuntu and the rest are just provided for people who (understandably) don't want to go through that rigamarole with each install or don't have adequate system resources.

Re:Recently been searching for a new job

[DMiax]

Actually I was commenting that the GP seemed unable to make another distro look like Ubuntu, which is incredibly easy. So, yes, I agree with you.

Re:Follow the money

[moreati]

Much as I'd like to agree with you. Evidence?

Why take the old site offline

[data2]

Ok, not having RTFA, I really don't see the point in taking down a working website, which I didn't even know how to reach without typing in the URL directly, because you are working on a new version?

And wasn't Dell once all about configurability? Now they try to dumb down the configuration options. Seems to be like they are messing with their original core business model.

Re:Why take the old site offline

[Anonymous Coward]

This really isn't that difficult to understand. In order to make purchasing for less technical people easier, they've streamlined the offerings that are shown on the web page (instead of seeing like 6 variations of a single machine on the page, you'll see one or two). For those who want to customize, go with Ubuntu, etc, YOU STILL CAN. You just need to phone your order in. Ideally, they'll just make a little link at the bottom of the page or something for "advanced configurations".

Sounds like Asus

[SpzToid]

At a major Taiwanese PC tradeshow, the CEO of ASUS abruptly canceled his presentation about new Asus products. Asus immediately began towing the line regarding Microsoft products and co-promotion following that. Dell's recent promoting cohabitation with Ubuntu sounds like exactly the same thing.

http://blogs.computerworld.com/microsoft_strikes_back_at_linux_netbook_push

Re:Sounds like Asus

[AHuxley]

Yes thinking back to
http://www.beincorporated.com/press/pressreleases/02-02-19_msft_complaint.html
"... through a series of illegal exclusionary and anticompetitive acts designed to maintain its monopoly in the Intel-compatible PC operating system market and created exclusive dealing arrangements with PC OEMs prohibiting the sale of PCs with multiple preinstalled operating systems."
I guess when the 'request' is made, you stop... or they are just revamping for the next Ubuntu OS ;)

Re:Sounds like Asus

[pangu]

Ahhh yes, the ol' Intercontinental Ballistic Chair.

Re:Sounds like Asus

[hitmark]

i will never forget when i first read that microsoft had a contract that meant they got payed even if computers where sold even without any of their products installed.

Re:Sounds like Asus

[sohp]

You mean toeing the line.

Re:Sounds like Asus

[symbolset]

ASUS is still in the grip. Now they're just announcing vapor tablets to try and slow the iPad onslaught. Same with HP. Those things will never see the light of day.

Sucky computer selection when they were available

[happymellon]

I would like to say that I appreciated at least the attempt, but when I went to replace my laptop earlier this year there wasn't a single Ubuntu laptop that didn't suck. They just picked out the bottom spec couple of PC's and stuck it on them, I would be not surprised if they come back saying that there was lack of interest because they didn't have a computer worth buying.

noo...it means

[improfane]

NEXT year will be the of the Linux desktop!

Yes, it will. Stop looking at me funny!

Not a big deal

[adosch]

Dell's Ubuntu offering was only on a selected bunch of their marketed PCs/laptops anyway, so it may feel like a consumer loss, but I don't see it that way. Heck, I was pricing out a Dell Mini-10 a few months back and wanted to see the differences in getting Ubuntu pre-loaded (since that was what was going to go on it in place of Windows anyway once in arrived to my house) and after jockeying around the sales horn, I found out the only Dell Mini-10 that was offered with Ubuntu was the Nickelodeon Spongebob-branded laptop. Cool for the kids? Sure, but not for me as the real end-consumer of the product who didn't want such a narrow choice.

Linux distributions, as far as installation and get-up-and-go time is concerned, has improved hand-over-foot in the past two years. I don't see a problem having to go download and install Ubuntu onto my new, shiny Dell myself; there's TOO much community support to even make an argument otherwise if you're clueless or don't know where to start.

Re:Not a big deal

[goontz]

Sure it's easy to install Ubuntu on your new machine (I did the same thing on a recent netbook purchase -- before even letting it load into its pre-packaged XP the first time). Yes, there's even tons of support in the community for someone completely new to it. But the users who don't already use, and aren't already familiar with Linux, are most likely not going to do this or seek the information. These are generally the same users who really don't need windows and could actually benefit from the simplicity of something like Ubuntu, but they're completely unaware of that; they know nothing except windows. Thus, they pay a premium for a crappy and unnecessary OS and the Open Source movement is hindered in a way (or at least doesn't gain that potential new user).

Re:Not a big deal

[markdavis]

Think about what you just wrote. So you think it is just about time installing Linux? No.

* For one thing, some of us don't want to pay a Microsoft Tax. If I don't plan on using MS-Windows on a computer, I should not be forced to pay for it.

* If a computer is available with Linux, it implies at least SOME amount of Linux support- even if it is just a compatibility guide.

* I wouldn't want to use Ubuntu, anyway, since there are (for me) much better Linuxes. So if they offered a computer with NO OS installed, I would be just has happy.

You can bet that Microsoft is behind the scenes again, pulling strings at Dell to squash any notion of freedom or choice.

Re:Not a big deal

[AmElder]

* If a computer is available with Linux, it implies at least SOME amount of Linux support- even if it is just a compatibility guide.

* I wouldn't want to use Ubuntu, anyway, since there are (for me) much better Linuxes. So if they offered a computer with NO OS installed, I would be just has happy.

Therefore it's easy to imagine how the judgement of the cost versus the benefit for Dell of supporting Linux might not weigh strongly in favour of offering pre-loaded Ubuntu, quite apart from any anti-competitive pressure from Microsoft. The Linux market is fractured, Dell offers a lot of hardware configurations, and the OS is easy for the end user to install themselves and get acceptable hardware compatibility. What encourages Dell to go the extra mile?

Re:Not a big deal

[Mongoose Disciple]

You can bet that Microsoft is behind the scenes again, pulling strings at Dell to squash any notion of freedom or choice.

That's one theory. Mine is that probably half of the Ubuntu purchases were followed by a support call (and subsequent return) by the purchaser because the machine wouldn't run new game x / quickbooks / excel / itunes / whatever.

If you're thinking, no, the general public is smarter than that, try working in a games store for a year, especially over Christmas. The number of returns of XBox games because they won't run on a Wii (or whatever system vs. system) will stagger you.

Re:Not a big deal

[Duncan J Murray]

Absolutely.

Some people have pointed towards companies such as emperor linux as a supplier of OEM machines with linux pre-installed. The problem with this is that the company have probably already had to pay for Windows license in sourcing the computer. This means that buying from these companies actually costs more than buying the machine with Windows.

I have written to my local MP and MEP to address this issue. It must surely lbe in breach of competition laws that I cannot buy a dell or lenovo laptop with anything other than one supplier of operating system.

I am confident that this monopoly will be tackled before I come round to replacing my 7 year old Thinkpad T40.

Re:Not a big deal

[markdavis]

You are more confident than I am. I used to believe that surely either market pressure or government intervention would bring an end to the Microsoft tax and allow consumers choice and to see what they are actually purchasing (line item). But it has been so many years, I have lost faith.

The only thing more annoying than purchasing a machine with MS-Windows you don't want, knowing that money is going to support the monopoly that takes away your choice, is buying a supposedly Linux machine, only to find out later that there are deals "behind the scenes" that *STILL* funnel money to Microsoft, even when you didn't get a license. (Yes, that happens)

Re:Not a big deal

[jzhos]

do it ever occur to you, there is the possibility that the main reason of the dropping it may be the following: An average user see the "linux" version is $20 cheaper than the windows version and decided to go with more savings. Then he spend hours on the DELL support calls to figure out why his new webcam or other fancy hardware does not work in the old way and he can not get on to MSN messenger. Those support costs add up, plus the cost to train those supporting stuff to handle two different OS. DELL want to cut cost in order to improve their financial report. Then they looked at the costs and say: let's concentrate on what most of the user use and buy. Why it always has to be a conspiracy?

Re:Not a big deal

[markdavis]

Yes, it did occur to me. But that is their own fault if they do not clearly indicate to to the user what they are buying. There is nothing to prevent a user from ending up with a machine without a monitor, or without enough RAM, or with the "wrong" version of MS-Windows either. The average consumer might not be very computer literate, but that doesn't mean there aren't ways of dealing with it other than just closing up shop.

Re:Not a big deal

[westlake]

For one thing, some of us don't want to pay a Microsoft Tax.

Walmart carried the flag for Linux in big box retail for about ten years.

It sold carloads of overstock junk to geeks who thought they could spin straw into gold. What it could not do is explain Linux to its customers or deliver a genuinely market-worthy Linux product at a lower price than Windows.

Retailers need to see a big return from every inch of shelf space. Retailers do not like maintaining dual inventory and support structures. Retailers love after-market sales.

The Windows sale is the gravy. Grand Theft Auto is the steak.

You aren't paying "The Microsoft Tax."

You are paying the "Also-Ran" tax for the OS that is fragmented into hundreds of distros and holds - collectively - a bare 1% share of the market.

Re:Not a big deal

[Kagetsuki]

I don't know about overseas, but here makers like Fujitsu, Toshiba, and Sharp have Linux compatibility information. Fujitsu has a detailed report of what worked and what did not, but it's rare they use hardware that is completely unsupported - they use pretty well known standard stuff. Toshiba only has the information for their business models, but like Fujitsu they use good hardware and I've never had a problem. Sharp is really big into Linux - I use both a Netwalker T1 and Z1 every day and they both come with Ubuntu only. My wife has a Mebius, and the graphical touch pad on it is actually a sub-machine running linux - and the drivers and interface software is open sourced and can be compiled in Linux surprisingly easily. Linux is here, and good makers are accepting it.

Re:Not a big deal

[Svartalf]

Walmart carried the flag for Linux in big box retail for about ten years.

Really? If I'm not mistaken, they only sort-of, half-heartedly carried Linux with their ONLINE presence a while back and offered some of the same half-hearted offer of the same for Mandriva a long while back. I'd hardly characterize this as "carrying the flag" for Linux.

Nice try, but no cigar there.

Re:Not a big deal

[fishexe]

The only thing more annoying than purchasing a machine with MS-Windows you don't want, knowing that money is going to support the monopoly that takes away your choice, is buying a supposedly Linux machine, only to find out later that there are deals "behind the scenes" that *STILL* funnel money to Microsoft, even when you didn't get a license. (Yes, that happens)

Actually, the only thing more annoying than that is knowing that it is illegal for Microsoft to set up such a system, and that there are people in our government whose full-time job is to police and prosecute this type of infraction, and that they're not doing so because our national elected leaders don't want to be seen as "anti-business".

Re:Not a big deal

[markdavis]

None of those are a single company.
None of those impose such a single high expense.
None of those dictate how I use the computer every day.
None of what you listed is critical to the operation of the system.
None of what you listed is software.
All of those work with different operating systems.

year

[improfane]

year ...should have bought a Windows.

Re:Ubuntu pages only available per phone?

[umghhh]

the friendly operator will tell in perfect language of your choice how the page look like rendered by specified browser. If you are willing to pay extra they will send you a fax with display snapshot.

Shame . . .

[bedouin]

The only reason I bought a Dell netbook a few months ago was because I knew it had fairly guaranteed Linux support. I even requested an Ubuntu install, despite the fact that I figured I would end up doing a clean install. Effectively, I was turning down a Windows license even though it had no effect on the total price.

Re:Follow the money

[Anonymous Coward]

In other news.. Dell has signed a new deal with Microsoft saving them a few $ per copy of Windows.

Dell will continue to install Office 2010 30-day nagware and now Microsoft's 'Itunes killer #31704'.

The spokesman went on to deny...

[Chris Mattern]

...that Microsoft had told them that if they continued to market Linux PCs, they would, quote, "rip them a new one", unquote.

Re:The spokesman went on to deny...

[markdavis]

And almost EVERY page on Dells site says "Windows® . Life without WallsTM . Dell recommends Windows 7." Even on the Linux related page I was trying to read, a damn Javascript popup appeared that said that "Dell recommends IE8".

Even when I clicked on a Linux Mini 10, it immediately placed the "Dell recommends Windows 7." on every single following screen (not to mention that the price for the Linux version was exactly the same as the MS-Windows model, and with nothing else included".

Nothing like feeling welcome.

Yet Another Misleading /. Article

[Nutria]

http://www.dell.com/ubuntu is still functional in the US.

Re:Yet Another Misleading /. Article

[Nimey]

For now.

They don't offer any with 10.04, and two of the four models they offer still have 9.04. Doesn't seem like they're too keen on it.

Re:Yet Another Misleading /. Article

[Risen888]

Okay, I've spent most of my time on this thread bashing Dell, but if there's no 10.04 offerings on the page, might it be because Ubuntu's new UI is trash?

Re:Yet Another Misleading /. Article

[Nimey]

Oh, for fuck's sake. It'd be trivial for Dell to include the old Human theme (buttons in the old place!) in with their build of Ubuntu and default to using that.

Speak not of what you do not understand.

Re:Yet Another Misleading /. Article

[Nimey]

That's true, but it's good to have tested drivers. Sometimes upgrades will have drivers that don't entirely work.

Re:Yet Another Misleading /. Article

[Risen888]

What I don't understand?! I sell Ubuntu machines, man. Don't talk to me about what I do or don't understand. I'm well aware of the process of theming a Gnome desktop. I do it every fucking day. (Well, actually, not anymore. I'm in the process of migrating my offerings to a KDE-based platform, presently Kubuntu, although I'm not married to that choice, and if anyone out there in Slashdot-land would like to recommend another user-friendly KDE-centric distro, I'd love to hear it.)

But you know what's even easier for Dell to do than that? To not do that.

Get it yet?

But can you buy a Dell without an operating system

[Palestrina]

That is what I really want. I can buy a Dell without a monitor, so why not without an operating system?

I have my own monitor already, and my own OS. It doesn't make sense to force me to by either of them.

Dell Vostro v13

[minderaser]

The Vostro v13, at least, still can be bought with Linux pre-installed on Dell's website http://www.dell.com/content/topics/segtopic.aspx/vostro-v13?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd&~ck=mn

Note, too, that the Ubuntu one is $449 while the lowest priced Windows one is $558. The only difference in hardware is the Windows one has a web cam (oh la-la). That being said, I ordered mine with Linux and it has a web cam anyway.

If they really do drop Linux I'll drop them as well. Linux pre-installed was a primary reason I chose Dell.

(By the way, the Vostro v13 is totally sweet. Plenty fast enough for me, great looking, light, and small without being stupid netbook small. Highly recommended. No, I don't work for Dell.)

Sales

[Exitar]

How many Ubuntu PC does Dell sell compared to Windows ones?

Re:Sales

[Anonymous Coward]

Probably not that many:
because they won't let people buy them

if they refuse to sell them then their sales figures will be low.

Re:Sucky computer selection when they were availab

[AmElder]

Based on my experience, one problem Dell faced trying to sell computers with Ubuntu pre-installed is that the OS is so easy to install yourself. Dell could spend time and money configuring and testing Ubuntu to work perfectly with every combination of hardware it sells. Or it can simply save the effort and let customers install their own OS on the machines it offers at no extra cost to the company.

I bought a Dell E6400 laptop a year ago for home business and personal use because the hardware and the price suited me best of any machine I could find on the market. At the time, I asked about Ubuntu, but they didn't offer it for that machine. No problem: I did a bit of research, found that other people had installed Linux without major problems, and simply bought the machine loaded with Vista and installed the OS myself.

simplify?

[SuperBanana]

'We've recently made an effort to simplify our offerings online, by focusing on our most popular bundles and configuration options, based on customer feedback for reduced complexity and a simple, easy purchase experience,'

Funny. I still see different websites based on whether I select "home", "small and medium business" (I love that- who says "I work for a medium-sized ____ company"?), or "large enterprise" or "public sector" (of which there are SIX subcategories!)

There are 11 laptops in the "home" section. There are 10 Lattitude "E" series laptops and 8 more in the "Specialty" section for enterprise users. 2 "precision" workstation laptops offered to higher education.

Hang on, I'll just quote from the side of the product selector when I selected "higher education":

Narrow Your Selection
Product Category
Latitude Laptops (18)
Inspiron (4)
Dell Precision Mobile Workstations (2)
Studio Laptops (2)
Vostro Laptops (7)

33 different laptops, ladies and gentlemen. 33.

How many does Apple sell? 3 Macbook Pros, 1 Macbook, 1 Macbook Air? Granted they come in a few flavors (different screen resolutions, for example)...but the basic laptop chassis itself is the same and a 15" macbook pro has always been a 15" macbook pro. Not a Macbook Pro 2310 and then a Macbook Pro 2340 etc.

Dell is like GM; you can buy the same car with 4 different hood emblems and slightly different trim/headlights/taillights.

And people wonder why Apple is raking in money hand over fist. Perhaps it's because they have a clear product lineup? Sometimes you have to stop trying to sell to every person on the planet.

Re:simplify?

[guruevi]

Another reason why Apple is raking in the customers is because of their concise, dedicated and friendly support staff. With Dell unless you spend ungodly amounts on a so-called Gold Technical Support you're going to be stuck with a dude in India that probably never even saw the computer you just bought.

Re:simplify?

[je ne sais quoi]

I agree completely. In fact, my head hurts every time I have to go to that Dell web-site. Even just the start page where you need to select what type of company you work for bothers me a little, because I just want to see the EQUIPMENT in front of me, not some selection of the equipment based on what some Dell marketing droid thinks a person in my situation would want. I end up having to click on all of them to make sure I'm not missing something.

Also, the names are weird. With the macbook you have to figure out if you want a normal machine, a "pro" or an "air". As you said, that's three choices and two are self-explanatory, if you're cost constrained you go normal Macbook, if you want the best machine you go "pro". You do have to figure out what differentiates an "air" from a normal machine though. With Dell, I have no idea what a Vostro, Studio, Latitude, Inspiron, Alienware, Adamo, Studio XPS or Precision Mobile Workstation is. These are completely unhelpful in regards to picking which product you want to buy.

I might be biased though because the last thing I bought from Dell was one of their monitors a few years ago. I decided a LONG time ago that Dell computers might be inexpensive, but they failed far too often to be a good purchase. And don't get me started on their cases! Ugh, I still have scars on my hands from the old Dell cases...

Re:simplify?

[billius]

I bought a Dell Laptop back in 2005 and one of the most frustrating things about the whole experience was the fact that there was only a weak correlation between the name of the model and the kind of specs you were getting. A Dell Inspiron could have all manner of different kinds of processor, ram, cpu, etc. I understand that they want to allow for flexibility, but after a certain point it just becomes needlessly confusing. BTW, my current computer is a Macbook Pro, so there may be something to your reasoning.

Re:simplify?

[Macrat]

And people wonder why Apple is raking in money hand over fist. Perhaps it's because they have a clear product lineup? Sometimes you have to stop trying to sell to every person on the planet.

Isn't Apple the enemy of Linux lovers?

Re:simplify?

[thinkloop]

And people wonder why Apple is raking in money hand over fist.

Yeah, it's because of their simple computer line-up that was on the brink of bankruptcy just a few years ago - nothing to do with practically inventing 3 product categories: mp3 players, smartphones, smarttablets - and riding that wave back to the shore of their computer lineup.

Isn't Dell History?

[Trip6]

http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/10/07/01/2321230/The-Ignominious-Fall-of-Dell

So who cares what they ship?

Or are they not so dead after all?

no 64-bit ubuntu laptops?

[Big Jojo]

I wanted a 64-bit ubuntu laptop from dell but they were pushing 32-bit single cores. So I got a non-ubuntu laptop and just installed ubuntu myself. Some issues with wireless rmain ... even though this model was documented on the ubuntu website as fully supported.

Re:no 64-bit ubuntu laptops?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm saddened by the lack of a NO CARRIER meme in your post.

Re:no 64-bit ubuntu laptops?

[Macrat]

So you paid the Windows tax. And you're ok with that.

Re:But can you buy a Dell without an operating sys

[couchslug]

"It doesn't make sense to force me to by either of them."

Sense to you, or sense to Dell? Your choices are buy or not buy.

"Buy with reduced delight" = "buy" from the Dell perspective.

A cryin shame.

[Anonymous Coward]

A lose-lose situation. At least it reduces (however marginally) the Dell proprietary hardware in circulation...

No Dell, Oh well...

[Anonymous Coward]

buy from someone else

http://system76.com/
http://zareason.com/

Re:No Dell, Oh well...

[Trelane]

I second this. My Linux experience on these is take it out of box, plug it in (optionally; laptop came with mostly-full battery), boot up, choose username/pw, select timezone, start playing.

Re:No Dell, Oh well...

[badkarmadayaccount]

My only issue is that those are american priced laptops, and I'm in Bulgaria....

Re:Sucky computer selection when they were availab

[grahammm]

Will Dell let you buy a laptop or even desktop PC without operating system? I know that the servers can be purchased without an OS, but thought all the 'end user' systems came with OS.

Dell's Attitude

[ncmathsadist]

I don't know why Dell thinks I am a second-class citizen because I use open-source programs. Boo and hiss.

That's ok

[Dunbal]

I dropped Dell from my shopping list a long, long time ago.

Made up their mind much?

[fnj]

Does Dell have the brain of a turkey? It can't seem to make up its corporate mind. Over the years, they're selling Ubuntu; now they're not; yes they are; no they're not; and on and on.

I agree with Dell

[WindBourne]

They no long want to sell you a computer with ubuntu. So, buy it elsewhere.

Re:Follow the money

[yoder]

Evidence? A smoking gun in this case would be pretty difficult to find unless there are leaked emails or documents showing pressure from suppliers. If Dell is smart about this, they will not come out and say anything inflammatory. In the end the reasoning behind the decision is not even that important.

Personally, I thought it was just a matter of time, as this was primarily a marketing experiment to cash in on a perceived hot commodity (Linux).

Re:Follow the money

[AHuxley]

The Goode Family animated series had that Ubuntu character, some form of brand-name dilution?

Re:But can you buy a Dell without an operating sys

[Anonymous Coward]

You can. Just tell them that you'd like it without an OS, reduced my current latitude's price by €90 or so

I tried to buy one yesterday

[dominux]

I blogged about it here: http://www.theopensourcerer.com/2010/07/23/why-windows-still-has-good-sales-figures/

16:27:12        Alan    Initial Question/Comment: I can't find your laptops with Ubuntu installed
16:27:23        System    You are now being connected to an agent. Thank you for using Dell Chat
16:27:23        System    Connected with Makrand_Karante
16:27:23        Makrand_Karante    Thank you for contacting Dell sales chat. This is Makrand Karante,your Sales Advisor. In order to Help you better can you provide me with your email address and Telephone number incase we get Disconnected I can either come back to you by phone or email.
16:27:39        Alan    hello
16:27:50        Alan    I am looking for laptops running Ubuntu
16:27:53        Makrand_Karante    Hi Alan
16:28:03        Makrand_Karante    we do not have that option available yet
16:28:15        Alan    oh :-(
16:28:32        Alan    when will they be available, I don't want Windows at all
16:28:53        Makrand_Karante    we do not have the related information here
16:29:36        Alan    that is a bit of a shame, I will have to go somewhere else to get a laptop then
16:29:53        Makrand_Karante    is there any thing else that I may assist you with today?
16:30:07        Alan    well not really. I just wanted a laptop running Ubuntu.
16:30:19        Alan    Do you have any without an operating system at all?
16:30:28        Makrand_Karante    I am afraid no
16:30:36        Alan    oh
16:31:23        Alan    so if I want a laptop from Dell I have to buy windows
16:31:58        Makrand_Karante    Yes
16:32:12        Alan    ok, thanks for your help
16:32:29        Makrand_Karante    Thank you for contacting Dell Sales Chat and allowing me the opportunity to assist you. Have a wonderful Day ahead.
16:33:25        System    The session has ended!

Couple of updates. I am in the UK, so that was through the dell.co.uk site, I don't want one from the US because it would have the wrong keyboard and I would be stung with customs charges and it would take a long time to get here and I like instant overnight consumer gratification.

If you are tempted to go ask similar questions of the Dell online chat thing then go right ahead with the following conditions:
1) You must take a credit card out of your purse/wallet, rest it on your keyboard and be totally prepared to use it, if they find you a suitable laptop.
2) Do it once, don't repeatedly bother them.
3) Be polite and respectful, the Code of Conduct applies.

Re:I tried to buy one yesterday

[TheSpoom]

I guarantee you that the information won't make its way back to Dell, because I can also guarantee you that the online chat service is 100% outsourced. The flow of information in those arrangements is often mostly one way.

Re:I tried to buy one yesterday

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm writing this on a Latitude E6400 I bought in april in Germany. I could have got it without OS, but it was cheaper with Win7 Home whatever. Have booted into Windows about 5 times since then out of curiosity. Windows will be totally gone the second I need the harddisk space. So as long as Micro-Dell is effectivly paying me a disposal charge for wiping Windows-Bit-Waste from the disk, I'm a big Windows fan.

Re:I tried to buy one yesterday

[dominux]

I can guarantee that the linked-in profile of the person I was talking to indicates they are a Dell employee based in India.

Re:I tried to buy one yesterday

[edfardos]

The flow of money is mostly one way also. Things wont change until that is disrupted, and I assure you they are monitoring that flow. That being said, I don't think any of this is relevant while Dell circles the corporate toilet bowl. Thanks for posting the chat - great stuff! --edfardos

Re:I tried to buy one yesterday

[stripakis]

I had a similar experience. I felt like talking to somebody who did not have a clue and maybe did not care either.

Re:Just works?

[transporter_ii]

And you totally gloss over the dog slow part. hmmmmm

Interestingly, after I hit submit, Ubuntu popped up with a Firefox update to 3.6.7. Flash still doesn't work and it is still dog slow compared to Chrome. Hmmmmm

I would almost like to have downgraded Firefox to an earlier version that "just worked", but it it tied into Ubuntu almost as bad as IE is in Windows. Hmmmmm

Microsoft don't want Dell to sell Linux :)

[viralMeme]

"They no long want to sell you a computer with ubuntu. So, buy it elsewhere"

Shurly, Microsoft don't want Dell to sell you a computer with Linux ;)

Dell testing the waters ?

[viralMeme]

I'm curious, is there a precedent for a third company pressuring Dell to drop Linux, under threat of retaliation?

"We should whack them, we should make sure they understand our value .. I want them to understand that every day they lead with Linux over Windows in Unix migrations they turn our field against them (take the southeast region mail thread as an example). I want them to think very very carefully about when and which forums they decide to push Linux very, very hard. Today, they do not. When they do, you can bet, behavior will evolve"

"HP discontinued its Linux SKUs beginning on November 18th. This is based on joint marketing effort that spans six months to promote low cost Windows SKU's with $30 extra channel incentives that focus on white box resellers"

It'll be interesting watching the MicroAstroturfers try and put a positive spin on the above statements.

http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/1872/dellbeforeafter.png

Re:Dell testing the waters ?

[Culture20]

Real companies don't test waters, they define them.

They never really wanted it to work

[loufoque]

When it was announced that Dell was selling computers loaded with Ubuntu, I went to their site and looked. I looked hard, and didn't see anything. Then on another site I found a link to an obscure page on the Dell website that you wouldn't find in any other way.
And there, I saw that they were selling old models of their products, with only the low-end hardware choices, for a more expensive price than what they sell the new model with high-end choices and Windows. To the point where even a person who would want to buy a Dell computer and install Ubuntu on it would buy one preloaded with Windows and install Ubuntu himself.

And now they're going to say they're pulling it because it didn't sell enough. Of course it didn't, they purposely made it that way; it's like they wanted it to fail from the get go.

Re:They never really wanted it to work

[ignavus]

And now they're going to say they're pulling it because it didn't sell enough. Of course it didn't, they purposely made it that way; it's like they wanted it to fail from the get go.

Microsoft wanted it to fail from the get go.

I dare say Dell would love to get away from their abusive spouse. But unless Dell wants to quit the Windows PC market entirely (ie 90% of the desktop and laptop markets - especially outside the US and especially in the world of business computers) they have no choice but to knuckle under to Microsoft's every whim.

Unless someone hits Microsoft with a sensible anti-trust conviction, and hits them hard, they will not change. Or else, they will only change when the market shifts away from the desktop and traditional laptop enough to allow other competitors a fair go. (See iPad etc and Android devices for examples)

But MS has the laptop/desktop markets sewn up at present, with Apple alone competing and that principally in the US and in the high-priced and domestic end of the market.

Re:They never really wanted it to work

[dotnetfreak666]

Yeah right, its an evil conspiracy. Dont you get it people? Did you read that manufacturers receive 4x more returns on Linux netbooks? You know why? Simple: Average users have a life, and dont want to spend all day trying to make their computers work, and when they upgrade, then spend endless hours again, thats ridiculous. Thats why manufacturers are pulling linux, even walmart tried it, but its foolish. No evil conspiracy whatsoever, just businesss and money, that what moves the world, not idealism. Period

Re:They never really wanted it to work

[dotnetfreak666]

I dare say Dell would love to get away from their abusive spouse.

I dont think that a company would love to stay away from the money, companies simply try solutions for other markets, but when the other markets are not profitable, they forget that markets.

Companies have been waiting, and giving opportunities to introduce Linux/Unix OS to the End User market, but always failed. The platform is not ready yet, maybe its closer than ever, but its not ready and accept that, dont blame Microsoft. Arent you supposed to understand complex things? why you cant process the simple fact that people buy what works and dont buy Crap?

Re:They never really wanted it to work

[mocoloco]

Not only that, the systems weren't the stock Ubuntu, they changed the apt sources to their own and in the case of my wife's Min 12, never offered newer software past 8.04. Sure the community made it easy to get the latest release, but non-savvy customers would never look past official Dell channels and so would in essence be abandoned.

Ubuntu on the wrong products

[garyebickford]

I bought (through my employer) a dual-screen Dell workstation last year. I run Ubuntu on everything - my laptop,. my personal desktop, etc. But the only products Dell offered Ubuntu on was low-end econoboxes. I finally resorted to buying it with RedHat Enterprise Linux. However RHEL did not meet my needs - I tried it for a while but because of the long version cycle it just couldn't be brought up to date with things I needed for my work - not to mention being less user-friendly for this GUI-obsessed guru. (I've been using the hottest GUIs I could achieve since my days using graphic terminals and programming 3D in FORTRAN. I built my own RS232 switch once to allow me to run three terminals on the same serial line, so I could have three screens - back in 1981. One for output, one for debugging output, one for coding.)

After putting up with RHEL for several months I finally switched over to Ubuntu 9, and now I'm running 10. I"m sorry, but I need this year's software. Among other things, I needed OpenOffice.org 3.2 for a project I was working on. I'm also a Compiz addict, and RHEL did not support a number of packages required by Compiz.

I never understood why Dell refused to provide Ubuntu on anything but their toy systems. It probably has to do with internal politics, and possibly something to do with their contract with RedHat. IMHO the lesson here is not that Ubuntu couldn't sell - it is that Dell did not understand the market.

Re:Ubuntu on the wrong products

[RobertM1968]

I never understood why Dell refused to provide Ubuntu on anything but their toy systems. It probably has to do with internal politics,

Um, no. It has to do with that being the big selling point of Ubuntu aside from the fact that it's free. The Linux community has spent hyears bragging about how much better their OS is on older/light weight hardware than any OS out there. This presents an image to the public that isn't inline for users in your position but don't blame Dell for it.

I disagree. I've run OS/2 and Linux, and love the fact that it runs on older or lower end hardware, and runs well on them. But that simply makes me want to run it on the latest and greatest to see what it can really do.

If people want to take advantage of the newest and fastest hardware, wouldnt it only make sense that they'd want to use one of the fastest operating systems they can on it? Or vice versa?

Perhaps the real reason why is because such boxes (that arent being sold with Ubuntu) would compete with Dell's (and Microsoft's) Windows server offerings? That seems more in line with reality than your scenario.

Nothing shady about it either. Dell and Microsoft both make a lot of money on support contracts for those server installs. They wouldnt for similar Ubuntu installation. Dell also would lose money on certain installs where one Ubuntu machine was purchased for each 3-5 Windows Server machines needed to support whatever server traffic was incoming/outgoing. That translates into lost revenue for both software support AND hardware support.

If there were more offerings available from other vendors, then Dell would be forced to make similar offerings - but there currently are not. While I can go build a "neat little server" from parts, if I want something truly mission critical, I want a big name, near fully redundant box - like my IBM eServer xSeries boxes. With Windows as the only real option, I dont have such an option, unless I want to "roll my own" - which I cannot unless specialized drivers are written to fully utilize the box (which then adds a bunch of time finding stable drivers or doing hardware research to find servers that are well supported). Which again leaves me in a situation where, if I am under time constraints, I am once again stuck with a Windows solution (or a not as redundant, not as hot swappable DIY server***).

There's also the investment in drivers for whatever version of Linux they choose, to handle all the proprietary components. Such an effort would have to be paid somehow - meaning pushing RHEL (or other version) servers - to the loss of their much more profitable Windows Server (hardware and support) groups. Keep in mind, just in case anyone is thinking of suggesting it, Dell and others are unlikely to release the details necessary for the fOSS world to make drivers for their proprietary hardware support, meaning such would either need to be created by the OEMs, or "reverse engineered" in the community.

There's what I think the key reasons are for this issue.

*** The xSeries servers from IBM, as well as various competing Dell models (to at least some extent) support hot swappable drives (yeah, everything "big" does - or can be made to), hot swappable fans, hot swappable power supplies, RAID arrayed memory (mirrored, auto failover with no downtime), CPU deactivation in case of failure (let's keep running the working 3 instead of all 4), hot swap expansion cards (ie: the PCI cards, etc), intelligent management subsystems, separate PCI buses and chipsets and data pathways (5 in my server) to ensure plenty of bandwidth for each add-on I put in the machine, separate switchable power inputs, power regulation, spike handling (to 10KW), and so on. I have yet to figure out how to make a home built server that incorporates all of those (and all the ones I did not list).

Re:Ubuntu on the wrong products

[Beetjebrak]

Heavy hitting will very quickly become synonymous to 'server', where I personally see it do quite a bit of very heavy hitting at work. At home I run Ubuntu 10.04 on my HTPC (xbmc), which also runs anywhere between 4 and 8 VirtualBox guests with all kinds of stuff in them (mostly BSD's). This last part greatly reduced the amount of stray iron humming in closets around the house and took quite a dent out of my electrical bill. It's not exactly a heavy hitter anymore due to its age, but it will run circles around any netbook or bottom-of-the-line Dell desktop you compare it with.

Re:Ubuntu on the wrong products

[RobertM1968]

Oh... you mean the NOT Factory Installed options? Or Novell's solution. Every other solution on the servers I have checked out are NOT installed by Dell. How is that an option if you dont get it?

RHEL 4.8AS 1Year RH Network Subscription with Media, NOT FACTORY INSTALLED [Included in Price]

RHEL 4.8AS 3Year RH Network Subscription with Media, NOT FACTORY INSTALLED [add $1,800.00]

Re:Ubuntu on the wrong products

[RobertM1968]

It's in the fucking server room! Do you really leave the initial install of software on your servers? If you do you're a fool.

Fuck. What am I talking about. This is Slashdot. You probably don't even work in a real server room! The fact that they're bundled means that it will work with the server. That's all that's important. No real admin wants them to install the OS anyway.

I am guessing Windows Server Admins are not server admins then? In certain cases, I would tend to agree, but as a generalization, I would not. And no, I am not a Windows Server admin, except where I have Windows Servers to administrate at customer locations where they were already installed.

As for me not working in a real server room, not just have I and do I, but I have also worked for UUNet and done far more (including being one of the support engineers for AlterDial, their ISDN products, "Microsoft's" (err... UUNet's rented by MS) connections and backbone, AOL's dialup and more...

If I buy a server, I've always installed the OS myself. But, I also want to know the OS has been installed, tested, and works beforehand. Getting a set of disks does not in any way convince me that such has been done. Getting disks and a machine that has already had the OS installed and configured, on the other hand, goes a lot further to convincing me that the manufacturer has some real experience in getting the (non-Windows) OS to run on their hardware - regardless of whether I plan on wiping the machine and re-installing on my own or not.

Regardless, a machine that comes with OS disks (and no OS on the machine) is NOT a machine that comes with OS on the machine, as was originally alluded to. Many companies want an out of the box scenario to save time and money - this helps prevent these *nix offerings from ever being taken into consideration for such needs.

Anyway, keep hiding behind your AC status... it's a great shield for you being nasty, contrary simply for the sake of being contrary, generalizing, and idiotic. Or... grow up. Or whatever - I really dont care, so take those suggestions as you will. I, on the other hand, no matter what I have to post, log in first - whether I turn out to be right or wrong. I also simply admit if I am wrong. In this case though, I think I simply am looking at the larger picture, instead of simply what you would do, or what I would do.

You forget how many server admins are out there who should probably never be allowed into the server room - much less near the server itself. One cannot change what is - instead, if Dell were really interested in increasing market share for it's Linux offerings, it would take that into account, in the same fashion that it does not sell Windows machines with no OS installed and a set of disks so the user could do it themselves. After all, there will always be server admins (or server "admins" if you prefer) who want an out of the box solution - as a matter of fact, there will likely always be an increasing number of them.

As long as a canonical driver list is provided

[kriston]

As long as a canonical driver list is provided so we can get Ubuntu to work properly, who cares if they don't sell them with Ubuntu. I haven't seen enough of these Window-less computers that were any cheaper than the Windows Home versions were.

Sorry Dell....

[Bravoc]

It's not that I don't don't an Ubuntu laptop, it just I don't want a Dell laptop

Only one version of Ubuntu®

[viralMeme]

The only difference between all these different versions is a compiler switch option, as in `GCC Windows -VHB - P32' and so on. Only a washing powder salesman could come up with this :]

Genuine Windows® 7 Home Basic
Genuine Windows® 7 Home Premium 32-Bit
Genuine Windows® 7 Professional 32-Bit
Genuine Windows® 7 Professional 32-Bit with Downgrade Rights Service to Windows® XP Professional
Genuine Windows Vista® Business 32-Bit
Genuine Windows Vista® Home Basic 32-Bit

Ubuntu® Linux®

Re:Only one version of Ubuntu®

[Qubit]

a compiler switch option, as in `GCC Windows -VHB - P32'

Sure, there'd be a kind of cool-geeky factor in being able to compile Windows with gcc, but would you feel somewhat....dirty after doing so?

Can't Flash ROMs from Linux

[Doc Ruby]

These companies that sold PCs which officially allowed Linux on them never really supported Linux. The profit margins in supporting Windows are large enough, but the relatively tiny revenue from Linux sales doesn't scale up along with the costs of extending support to Linux. Especially when Linux vendors like Red Hat and Ubuntu receive most of the support requests that don't go to the public community.

But that means we're stuck. I've got a Compaq EVO D510 minitower that is still a perfectly good PC for a Web terminal (and even most office work). But its onboard SVGA chip relies on the P4/4.3GHz CPU too much, and the PCI bus is also already pretty loaded. So I bought a Radeon HD 4350 AGP that promises 1080p HDMI. But it turns out the old BIOS (that otherwise never needed upgrade) doesn't support the board. Unless it's flashed with the latest ROM image. Which HP does still distribute, but only in a Windows .exe app. No Windows, no AGP HD. I don't even think FreeDOS will run the .exe; Wine certainly doesn't ("can't load the driver"). And I don't even see any Q/A in the community over the years addressing this problem, even in the fairly well populated Ubuntu forums.

Too bad, since Linux runs far longer on old HW than "planned obsolescence" Windows bloatware ever does.

Re:Can't Flash ROMs from Linux

[symbolset]

It's not a Windows app. It's a DOS app. It runs fine in FreeDOS. FreeDOS comes with Clonezilla, which is a pen based distro for system cloning for backup. Make a bootable pen and copy the exe file onto it, then boot it and select the FreeDOS on the menu and run the .exe to update the flash.

The Evo D510 is a neat little box and you can pick them up for free in a lot of places. Still works fine with Linux. Won't ever run W7 well.

Re:Can't Flash ROMs from Linux

[Doc Ruby]

Hey, that's awesome, thanks. Looks like there's instructions for making a FreeDOS bootable USB drive with makebootfat . Do you know if there's anything special I have to do (eg. config the existing D510 BIOS) to make the D510 boot that FreeDOS USB drive? I've actually got a few of these D510s, and it could be a lot better to run AGP videocards on them than to buy new PCs with the same resulting specs.

Re:Can't Flash ROMs from Linux

[symbolset]

I believe the D510 boots from USB by default, but that can be turned off in the BIOS. If it's turned off you'll have to turn it on. I don't have my D510 samples here today or I'd test it for you.

Re:Just works?

[RobertM1968]

Typing this on Ubuntu 10.04 LTS using Google Chrome. Why Chrome? I used 8.04 and Firefox for about a year, year and a half and loved it. Then one day Firefox updated to 3.6.6 and Flash quit working.

Sorry, but that sounds like a selling point to me. Heck, it would save me the trouble of having to install FlashBlock. :-)

Microsoft strikes back at Linux xxxxxxx push

[Locutus]

does this sound familiar or what?

Microsoft strikes back at Linux netbook push

just as this article was about netbooks, the new buzz word to kill off in the name of Windows is tablet and to some extent smartphone. They'll have a very tough time with the smartphone but the tablet sector is just getting started and Android isn't even out of the gate on that platform yet.

I smell lots of marketing deals forcing exclusivity with Microsoft once again.

LoB

Re:Microsoft strikes back at Linux xxxxxxx push

[phillymjs]

the new buzz word to kill off in the name of Windows is tablet and to some extent smartphone. They'll have a very tough time with the smartphone but the tablet sector is just getting started and Android isn't even out of the gate on that platform yet.
I smell lots of marketing deals forcing exclusivity with Microsoft once again.

Doubtful. The market has spoken, and it has said, "We don't want a bloated desktop OS shoehorned into a tablet," but that's all Microsoft has to offer-- they are reportedly dissuading if not outright banning OEMs from putting Windows Phone 7 on tablets. And when it comes to smartphones, Microsoft is going to be shipping an unproven 1.0 product and has a history of not getting stuff right until 3.0.

Given Microsoft's track record in the mobile space these last three years, no OEM is going to be stupid enough to sign on exclusively with them. OEMs will want to keep their options open so they can produce Android devices, in the event the Microsoft Mobile Fail Train keeps chugging along.

~Philly

Misleading article of the year?

[Qubit]

For now.

They don't offer any with 10.04, and two of the four models they offer still have 9.04. Doesn't seem like they're too keen on it.

Maybe Dell isn't too keen on upgrading to the latest version of Ubuntu. Well, sucks to be us. And by us, I mean all of the people that put their money where their mouth is and bought a laptop preloaded with Ubuntu from Dell.

But that has just about nothing to do with the central point, or should I say fallacy of this article.

Here it is:

Linux: Dell Drops Ubuntu PCs From Its Website

Well, I can sure see them on the website.

"Dell has stopped selling consumer PCs preloaded with Ubuntu from its website, and doesn't know when they're coming back.

Nope, it didn't happen.

Dell insists that it's continuing to sell Ubuntu systems, but only over the phone, and has no idea when — or even if — the Ubuntu PCs will return online.

Well at least there is that much, right?

A search for Ubuntu on the Dell UK website returns only one laptop — the Dell Latitude 2100 from the company's business range.

Now wait just a second, first people say that there are no cannibals in the British Navy...erm... I mean, they say that there are no Ubuntu laptops sold on the Dell website, and now you're saying that there's just one?

Now that's just taking the piss!

Speaking of the UK, I'll kindly point people at The FAQ that notes:

Slashdot is U.S.-centric. We readily admit this, and really don't see it as a problem.

Try again, editors. Try again.

Negotiating Tool

[Ranger]

I don't know if Dell was ever serious about supporting Linux or Ubuntu. I think they did it to use it as a bargaining chip in negotiating prices with Microsoft.

Re:Just works?

[Lennie]

Have you tried creating a different Firefox-profile ? Maybe there is something wrong with that.

This is just inaccurate.

[nvrrobx]

FreeDOS and Linux systems

In that result, you see a Vostro v13 Ubuntu, a Latitude 2110, etc.

Yes, if you want a laptop with Ubuntu preloaded, you need to buy from the small business section. It's basically always been that way. You're more likely to find the hardware you want in the small business section anyhow. How many of us actually want glossy screens, for example?

The realities of the marketplace

[westlake]

Dell seems to have discovered what Walmart discovered after a decade of trying to make a mass market success of OEM Linux:

1 There are about 1 to 1.2 billion PC users world-wide.

Call it 900 to 1 billion Windows users - 1 in 4 who will likely have migrated to Windows 7 by the end of summer. It could take a little longer - but it will happen.

There are enormous economies of scale in the production - and marketing - of the Windows PC.

Talk of "The Microsoft Tax" is witless.

2 Linux has 200 distros and a penguin and what the hell does that mean?

Apple sells an upscale, urban sophisticate, life-style. Microsoft, solid middle class values. Both have had thirty years and billions of dollars to define and perfect their corporate identities.

The task for the seller is to explain Linux to the newcomer is less than 30 seconds. Half of which must be given over to a warning that it won't run his Windows software.

Walmart learned that lesson the hard way.

3 The PC is quintessentially middle class. Rate the buyer zero for his geekiness, ideological purity and political correctness. He tends to chose the first tier app even when it sells at a premium. But that does not mean he is paying retail list.

This leads directly to problem No 4:

4 Linux runs a sub-set of the software available for Windows.

Everything of interest in FOSS to the non-technical end user is ported to Windows or begins as a native Windows app.

The forces that drive the port are compelling:

Close to 90% of funding for The Mozilla Foundation comes from Google's AdSense From the Firefox browser on the Windows PC.

It is much harder to justify the port of the commercial/closed source/proprietary app to Linux.

OSX has five times the market.

Mac users are generally unafraid to crack open their wallets - and you'll be spared dealing with the griefers among the Free and Open Source zealots.

And that is a lie otr you are sarcastic

[aepervius]

Most stuff onn windows is plug and play. I say most, but really it has been years since I did not have something which did not work directly before last month, and last month that was speciality hardware (DVB-T over the air as USB). Instalation went without a hitch, I jsut had to install something on a provided DVD that's it. On Ubuntu I had to fiddle with command line to do various stuff, like watch DVD, mount additional drives as more than read only, I had to fiddle around with (albeit only a bit) with the wireless connection, and more importantly, despite spending 2 week end on it and going over many ubuntu web site , I never got my DVB-T receiver to work.

Ubuntu work out of the box as much as windows work out of the box. But side step a bit away from the box, and WHAM ! Ubuntu hit you square in the face (more like Linux in general). Windows is much more forgiving. I haven't also to "hunt" software update on the web. Certainly not for the windows OS, only for games.


I am sorry, but you are seeing this comparison windows vs Ubuntu with what I call a "linux rosy glasses" very biased. As someone which don't care for either windows, or Linux I can only tell you to remove the pink glasses (well not 100% , I still prefer Linux/Ubuntu very very slightly due to work related reason, but that is beside the point here). I would trust my parents and family with a winbox, I would not trust them with ubuntu, even if they get used to the OS. Too much stuff I would have to help them with for which one would have to hunt down obscure forums. Like installing DVB-T.

Re:And that is a lie otr you are sarcastic

[HBoar]

No, most stuff on windows is plug, install drivers from mini CD that comes with the device that invariably tries to install bloatware at the same time, and play.

On the other hand, most stuff IS plug and play on ubuntu now. The drivers for the VAST majority of common peripherals are already installed, ready for use.

Take USB wireless adapters, for example. I lent out one of mine to a friend recently, he uses windows. Having only ever used it with linux, I didn't think and just told him to plug it in and use it. Of course, I soon got a phone call from him saying that it didn't work. I'd thrown out the little CD that came with it with the packaging, and he didn't have internet access since his wireless adapter didn't have a driver..... So I had to download the driver (which I had to select from a long list of possible drivers with obscure names). Plug and Play. Yeah, right.

Re:And that is a lie otr you are sarcastic

[LinuxIsGarbage]

In Windows 7 I've found that if the driver isn't included, going to Windows Update will find the driver. Much like what Ubuntu does for devices it supports, but without included drivers.

Re:And that is a lie otr you are sarcastic

[HBoar]

Which, again, requires an internet connection. Not very helpful if you're trying to get your network adapter working.

Re:And that is a lie otr you are sarcastic

[LinuxIsGarbage]

I've yet to run into a machine that one if not both of the network interfaces (eg: wifi and ethernet) weren't recognized. It's the same situation with Ubuntu. I was setting up Ubuntu on an older Dell Laptop, the install had drivers for the ethernet, not for the Wifi. I plugged in the ethernet, and had it search for drivers.

Re:And that is a lie otr you are sarcastic

[HBoar]

You're right, ethernet drivers are almost always present in any case, but your average person doesn't even have an ethernet cable these days -- everything is wireless. Common wireless adapters should be plug and play. This seems to be the case with Ubuntu, and simply isn't with windows.

Re:And that is a lie otr you are sarcastic

[LinuxIsGarbage]

Most of the computers I set up with Windows 7 had the Wifi recognized.

Not only that

[aepervius]

But they changed the UI to have all system icon on the LEFT with the newest version. So not only *I* as a Ubuntu user had to get used with anotehr UI, but now it is even HARDER for windows user to switch to Ubuntu. That is truly brain dead.

Re:Not only that

[Omestes]

*You*, as an Ubuntu user, could probably figure out how to shift the icons back to the right in pretty much no time flat. I took me around 3 minutes, and I'm not a power-user.

As for driving adoption, it might work both ways. Part of the perceived problem with windows managers were that they all looked like really bad copies of Windows 95. Moving the buttons divorces the image (at least in theory) of being a bad, cheap, Windows copy. It is kind of odd, since the old default Gnome set-up for Ubuntu was pretty slick looking, even with the strange color scheme.

Re:Just works?

[tepples]

Sorry, but that sounds like a selling point to me.

HTML5 can't ask the user to access a PC's microphone or camera, as seen in video chat. Flash Player can. HTML5 can't necessarily run legacy SWF animations and games on sites such as JibJab, Newgrounds, and Albino Blacksheep. Flash Player can. HTML5 doesn't (to my knowledge) yet have a timeline-based editor for canvas or SVG animations. (Inkscape is for stills only.) Adobe Flash has had them since it was a Macromedia product.

Re:But can you buy a Dell without an operating sys

[Solandri]

That is what I really want. I can buy a Dell without a monitor, so why not without an operating system?

Didn't you get the memo? 99.7% of computers sold without an OS are used for piracy!

800 lb gorilla has its way

[CosaNostra Pizza Inc]

"Dell has stopped selling consumer PCs preloaded with Ubuntu from its website, and doesn't know when they're coming back." I wouldn't be surprised if Microsoft had a hand in this.

Re:800 lb gorilla has its way

[Svartalf]

I don't think anyone with half a brain would be surprised. Too obvious a change like this, much like ASUS showed- and while ASUS didn't outright say that they got pushed by MS, they did indicate that this might have happened all the same.

Re:Just works?

[transporter_ii]

No, haven't tried that. I have uninstalled and re-installed all kinds of things.

The one thing I know is that there are a lot of people it has happened to. Bug reports on Mozilla of the exact things happening to me.

Bloatware in Wine

[tepples]

computer retailers like Dell get paid a lot of money to pre-install bloatware

A company as big as Dell can say "I'll install your unregistered shareware on Windows and Ubuntu PCs as long as it runs in Windows 7 and the version of Wine comes with the Ubuntu image that we ship."

Re:downloading malware

[daveime]

Because official repositories NEVER get compromised, unless it's some screensaver, in which case "it's your own fucking fault, you should/could have read the source code first".

Or you find something where a dependency isn't fulfilled, and you are told (after trawling various newsgroups for hours), to start adding third-party repositories to complete the installation. Meaning EXACTLY the same trust model as Windows.

Monoculture

[Max_W]

I would like to buy Linux netbook but the 3G-modem from the ISP probably would not install on it.

On the other hand, having not even a monopoly, but a global monoculture is dangerous. It is enough to recall what happened when a fungus hit a monoculture of that time (potato) in Ireland.

I think an international law is needed to oblige hardware producers do write drivers with a standardized open programming interface.

The same about software. It should be produced in such a way that allows easy native adaptation for any OSs. I can not use company's VPN client on Linux because it does not exist for Linux. It means that I am locked to Windows via drivers and business software.

I could install Skype on Linux, but my web-cam does not ignite on Ubuntu Linux. Why? Why should it be that way? Frankly, I have an impression that very smart cunning people just found a way to lock people to their product via such small things (tricks).

seriously though

[waambulance]

if you are buying Dell, you have bigger problems than what OS you are running.

Re:really old MS FUD issue

[king neckbeard]

I would disagree. With a LiveCD, it's easier to save even a Windows users' data with Ubuntu than with Windows. I'd say the real issue with support is that it just isn't Windows, so it isn't familiar to many users.

Payment for repository access?

[tepples]

However, you are installing a random package from a random website and you don't know if it will work or if the dependencies it needs are available.

Windows operating systems remain supported, and dependencies of applications designed for them available, for longer than a typical Linux distribution (even Ubuntu LTS) remains supported.

The package manager gives you a centralized and searchable listing of packages, and most of them are sure to work with the system, unlike a random .deb off the net.

Does the package manager provide a means for payment for the privilege to download and use an application? Not all non-free applications have viable free clones.

Re:Payment for repository access?

[luther349]

bzzt wrong. you can download a deb off the net and click on it to install it. it will open the package installer and it will find any missing libs and download them. and i would like you to name one app that does not have a free alt. this applys to both windows and linux these days.

Apps not in repo

[tepples]

Compared to ubuntu where it takes fewer clicks to install the program

How many clicks does it take to install the program that you want to use once you have discovered that it happens not to be in Canonical's repository?

Re:Apps not in repo

[Omestes]

One.

Click on terminal, add the repository (typing, no clicks), hit enter.
Apt-get (typing, no clicks)

Software installed.

Yes, I understand what you were getting at, and I fully understand. I find having to hand enter many repositories (even to get the newest release of things like Firefox) to be highly annoying. Right now I have Ubuntu on my laptop, which I only pretty much use for browsing the web and some light text editing/writing, and I still find myself having to use the terminal around every other day. Some of it, obviously, is my fault since I enjoy mucking around in the OS and see what I can do, but good amount of it is inevitable to even your average user.

Every time I have to hand add, and install, a repository I scream a little bit, it should be easier, it should be more streamlined, I should have to carefully copy two lines of text from a random page to a terminal just because Canonical really REALLY doesn't want me to consider installing it. Its even worse with the shrinking fraction of files you have to go compile to make them run, this is FAR above the average users head.

Also, the directory structure is annoying. I've been using computers of various types for a very long time, so I don't mind the almost arbitrary use of 3-letter directories, but the average user does, or would. Software being in C:\program files makes more sense that being in some flavor of /usr/bin or /etc/ or whatnot for a purely ease of use standpoint.

A lot of Ubuntu's features also suck, like their power management (which might be the most underpowered GUI tool that ever existed), where you can tell they still are a work in progress, and some group of devs never really got around to putting polish on them, and may never because it isn't a tool that they will ever use, preferring, themselves, to edit config files by hand.

That is another problem. Linux (and all of its family members) are built by nerds, for nerds. The focus is on what THEY want, with only a little work done to add the gloss and sparkle that everyone else in the world wants. Why the hell would I ever build a really decent power management console for Gnome, when I could just edit the damn settings like I have for umpteen years? Whereas the big players spend tons of money focusing on what the majority of people actually want.

That said, I like Ubuntu, I use it, and I enjoy it. Though I am thinking of moving on to either Mint or OpenSuse. It just isn't meant for the average user as it stands. And it won't be until there is a shift in the actually productive Linux community.

Linux making same mistakes as Vista

[tepples]

But in the process some features where lost, with one or more related to how multi-monitor setups where managed.

Which is still unacceptable. It was unacceptable when Windows lost substantial features due to a kernel overhaul between Windows XP and Windows Vista, and it's just as unacceptable on GNU/Linux.

Re:Linux making same mistakes as Vista

[hitmark]

and enough found the old behavior unacceptable, so it was "improved".

Re:Just works?

[RobertM1968]

Sorry, I assumed the bold smiley face would indicate it was an attempt at humor.

Duh...

[crhylove]

The new Ubuntu blows. Buttons all over the damned place, heinous colors (I didn't think they'd get worse than brown).... Every serious manufacturer should look at Mint or something more consistent. Ubuntu has gone rogue, and it's embarrassing.

Re:Duh...

[nolife]

Interesting, I use Ubuntu mainly because I get the desktop and layout like I want to see it. I've been pretty happy using screenlets, hiding or unloading the panels, and using Compiz (I like the "simple compizconfig setting manager" which is much friendlier than the standard compizsettings manager), Emerald, and Avant. It took be about an hour or so and some Google searches to get it all going and another few hours playing with the options to get it the way I liked it the first time but now it only takes me a 20 or so minutes to recreate "my setup" on a new machine.

I don't have to have all of those things running and configured and I don't mind the standard Ubuntu layout with Gnome (like on my Mini that is cpu/graphics challenged) but that's why I chose to use a Linux desktop, because I CAN configure it to how I want it to "look and feel".

Took a while

[airfoobar]

"A search for Ubuntu on the Dell UK website returns only one laptop"
I'm in the UK. Was looking to buy an ubuntu laptop exactly a year ago, and was looking into Dell. They only had one ubuntu option, even back then. I used their online chat thingy to ask if they had any Linux/bare-bones systems and the answer was "go away". I called them and they said "we don't support ubuntu" and rudely hung up.
So, no. The world's largest computer manufacturer doesn't sell Ubuntu PCs, it doesn't support Ubuntu, it wishes OSS would just POAD.

Dell without windows

[euxneks]

At work, we got a quote from dell for computers, I requested a price without windows, and they gave me a quote for a computer which was about $200 more than the *SAME* computer with *more* RAM and windows preinstalled (along with a bunch of bloatware I assume). WTF. Where is this shit coming from? I'm pretty much being PAID to have a Microsoft OS on the system!! I'm tempted to just take it and install Linux on it (as requested) and just keep the Windows License for other systems that need the upgrade.

Unsupported hardware

[tepples]

I saw that they were selling old models of their products, with only the low-end hardware choices, for a more expensive price than what they sell the new model with high-end choices and Windows. To the point where even a person who would want to buy a Dell computer and install Ubuntu on it would buy one preloaded with Windows and install Ubuntu himself.

The newer, cheaper models with Windows are more likely to have unsupported hardware. The hardware in the Ubuntu machines is supported because it is old, and it is supported because it is not made ultra-proprietary to shave pennies like the winmodems of the dial-up era.

Re:Unsupported hardware

[Kagetsuki]

You know you could just purchase from a company that uses good hardware, like Fujitsu or Toshiba.

Re:Unsupported hardware

[tepples]

No, I didn't know that Fujitsu or Toshiba uses good hardware until you just told me. For future reference, what web page lists the laptop PC makers that use good hardware?

Re:Unsupported hardware

[Kagetsuki]

Well I think that's also partially a personal opinion. Fujitsu does have Linux support information for all their notebooks on their Japanese pages, I only looked at a few models but it looks like they all pass. Toshiba only seems to have information for business models, but the personal models have detailed hardware information which you could probably use to determine compatibility. The thing about Toshiba is they design their own boards and pay extreme attention to detail, and I have yet to encounter any hardware used on Toshiba notebooks that required special drivers or did not support generic drivers (and I've installed Linux on quite a few at this point, rough count I'd say 20 different models over the last 4 years or so). Other than the Linux compatibility, the support from Toshiba has always been excellent, their warranties are international, I feel the screens are very nice (not too glossy, not to matte, very crisp and not dim), and the keyboards are the kind I like (just a little "crispy", not gummy, just the right amount of resistance). All of this is personal preference I'm sure; we had a Mac Book at the office for porting and I hated the keyboard shape and feel and that damn glossy screen made it impossible to use for me - yet many people seem really like the Apple keyboards and screens. Anyway, my recommendations are Toshiba and Fujitsu. Toshiba for luxury and very likely high Linux compatibility, and Fujitsu for more definite Linux compatibility and in general robust and well built machines.

Friendly names for FHS folders

[tepples]

(typing, no clicks)

You obviously don't use an on-screen keyboard or even an Model M keyboard. If you take this notion of counting keypresses as free further, you could fudge it by claiming that typing in a whole program from printed source code is free.

I find having to hand enter many repositories (even to get the newest release of things like Firefox) to be highly annoying.

Windows: the annoyance of installers. Ubuntu: the annoyance of adding repos.

I've been using computers of various types for a very long time, so I don't mind the almost arbitrary use of 3-letter directories, but the average user does, or would.

A graphical file manager could add "subtitles" for the various folders making up the Filesystem Hierarchy Standard. It could label /etc as "etc (Preferences)", /bin as "bin (Core Programs)", /usr/bin as "bin (Common Programs)", /tmp as "tmp (Temporary Files)", /opt as "opt (Applications)", etc. Or it could do like Mac OS X does and use /Applications, /Library, etc.

Software being in C:\program files makes more sense that being in some flavor of /usr/bin or /etc/ or whatnot for a purely ease of use standpoint.

The whole reason Microsoft used "/Program Files" instead of /Programs was to force programs to be able to handle spaces in filenames. But if I were designing VFAT, I would have made space the lowercase version of underscore. This way, "Program Files" would have become equivalent to "Program_Files" in the same way that it is equivalent to "program files".

and some group of devs never really got around to putting polish on them, and may never because it isn't a tool that they will ever use, preferring, themselves, to edit config files by hand.

But even Windows doesn't expose every power management setting in Control Panel. Ubuntu: editing config files in Gedit. Windows: editing the config database in Regedit.

Re:Friendly names for FHS folders

[Omestes]

You obviously don't use an on-screen keyboard or even an Model M keyboard [youtube.com]. If you take this notion of counting keypresses as free further, you could fudge it by claiming that typing in a whole program from printed source code is free.

I was being a bit facetious.

A graphical file manager could add "subtitles" for the various folders making up the Filesystem Hierarchy Standard. It could label /etc as "etc (Preferences)", /bin as "bin (Core Programs)", /usr/bin as "bin (Common Programs)", /tmp as "tmp (Temporary Files)", /opt as "opt (Applications)", etc. Or it could do like Mac OS X does and use /Applications, /Library, etc.

This could make things worse, though. If your asking for help with something, and the community or a man page tells you to edit something in ~/etc/foo/bar, but your seeing /etc(Prefs) instead... Yes, you'd have to be dumb, but that seems to be the problem.

I prefer the OS X way of things. Actually if it wasn't for Apple OS X would be almost perfect, since it does very well at having an intuitive GUI, yet still allowing easy access to the terminal and innards. If someone managed to hash our a decent open OS X-like distro, I would be in love.

The whole reason Microsoft used "/Program Files" instead of /Programs was to force programs to be able to handle spaces in filenames. But if I were designing VFAT, I would have made space the lowercase version of underscore. This way, "Program Files" would have become equivalent to "Program_Files" in the same way that it is equivalent to "program files".

The one nice thing about *Nix naming conventions is the ease of typing. Typing out Progam(space)Files is much more annoying than just /bin. When navigating within the Windows terminal, I sometimes feel like I'm writing a damn novel.

Re:Friendly names for FHS folders

[tepples]

If [...] the community or a man page tells you to edit something in ~/etc/foo/bar, but your seeing /etc(Prefs) instead

Perhaps putting the subtitle on a different line and in a lighter and/or smaller font would help. Compare how the "Tiles" view in Windows XP uses three lines for the filename, friendly file type name, and byte size or image dimensions.

If someone managed to hash our a decent open OS X-like distro, I would be in love.

Mac OS X is the successor to NeXTstep, and its API is called Cocoa, the successor to OPENSTEP. GNUstep is an implementation of OPENSTEP and parts of Cocoa. So would a Debian-based distribution with Window Maker and GNUstep apps be a good start? See also other thoughts on products that can be built out of GNUstep.

Re:Friendly names for FHS folders

[Omestes]

Compare how the "Tiles" view in Windows XP uses three lines for the filename, friendly file type name, and byte size or image dimensions.

Not a bad idea, actually.

Mac OS X is the successor to NeXTstep, and its API is called Cocoa, the successor to OPENSTEP. GNUstep is an implementation of OPENSTEP and parts of Cocoa. So would a Debian-based distribution with Window Maker and GNUstep apps [distrowatch.com] be a good start? See also other thoughts on products that can be built out of GNUstep [gnustep.org].

Thanks for the info, I was aware of the project, but I thought it died a long time ago. Actually it seems to be one of those projects continually on the verge of death, meaning there still might be hope for it. I'm downloading the live CD as we speak to give it a peek.

Though looking at the screenshots, it has the worst GUI I have ever seen. It makes some of the early KDE defaults look positively gorgeous (it also makes System 9 look modern).

Re:But can you buy a Dell without an operating sys

[westlake]

That is what I really want. I can buy a Dell without a monitor, so why not without an operating system?

Because bare bones doesn't sell worth shit.

The OEM system install is a balanced and tested configuration of hardware and software that is sold under warranty, works as advertised, or is returned to the vendor.

The gold standard in markets where the PC is sold as an appliance and not a hobby kit.
 

Anti-virus,Anti-spyware

[symbolset]

Check that out. "Anti-virus,Anti-spyware" "Unwarranted"

Didn't that used to say "unnecessary" or something? Gotta love that. Turn a huge positive like no active viruses in the wild into a negative by implying that such stuff is not covered by the warranty.

Re:Just works?

[LingNoi]

HTML 5 has the device tag for accessing cameras and microphones. It's just not been implemented by any browser yet.

I've seen timeline-based editors and things that'll convert and run flash into SVG/javascript. Hell, even CS5 has got a export to html5 option..

3G Probably will install

[Kupfernigk]

I have an MSI Wind for testing which dual boots XP and 10.04. Both 3 and Vodafone 3G dongles install on both operating systems, but with Linux I don't get the tedious "phone" application, it just works. It is, ffs, a modem. And Unix and Linux are far, far better at modems and terminals than Windows ever will be.

Re:downloading malware

[daeglo]

Because official repositories NEVER get compromised, unless it's some screensaver, in which case "it's your own fucking fault, you should/could have read the source code first".

Source?

Dell still has 4 laptops with Ubuntu on their site

[jtotheh]

There are still four laptops on the Dell US site with Ubuntu. No higher end stuff though. I'm typing this on a Dell XPS1530n (n="naked" ie no M$) which I enjoy a lot. When it comes time to replace it I hope there will be something as nice that is certain to work with Linux. (I prefer Fedora which can be another can of worms) Seems like HP and Lenovo don't support Linux much. Maybe System76 or ZAReason will be the way to go.

Next up

[symbolset]

Next up: hardware that only works with Windows, a-la "winmodems" and wireless chipsets. Bye bye Dell.

Makes sense to me ...

[Jerry]

With "friends" like DELL, Linux needs no enemies.

DELL's entire Linux effort for the last three years has been, IMO, one big gigantic FRAUD, with the intent to offer Ubuntu pre-installed on a few marginal boxes without significant customization available and for only one reason: so that Microsoft can avoid charges that it holds an illegal monopoly on the PC OEM desktop. Which it does.

The only question remaining is: "What are the advantages to DELL for allowing itself to be controlled as if it were a wholly owned subsidiary of another corporate, perhaps including Microsoft?"

Well, we have one answer to that question already. Just yesterday (7/23) we learned that DELL corporate has agreed to pay a $100 Million fine, and Dell personally has agreed to pay $4 Million. Two of his lieutenants have agreed to pay $4M and $3M each. And what did the SEC fine them for?

"They failed to disclose material information to investors and used fraudulent accounting to make it falsely appear that the company was consistently meeting Wall Street earnings targets."

If THAT is a crime then Microsoft is guilty as well. That's how they got to the top of the pile they are setting on today. What DELL actually did was take payoffs from Intel to not use AMD chips.

The SEC charged that Dell did not disclose to investors large "exclusivity payments" the company received from Intel Corporation to not use central processing units (CPUs) manufactured by Intel's main rival, Advanced Micro Devices Inc. (AMD).

"It was these payments rather than the company's management and operations that allowed Dell to meet its earnings targets," the SEC said. "After Intel cut these payments, Dell again misled investors by not disclosing the true reason behind the company's decreased profitability." ...
The SEC's complaint charged that the exclusivity payments made by Intel to Dell for not using CPUs made by AMD grew from 10 percent of Dell's operating income in fiscal year 2003 to 38 percent in fiscal year 2006. It peaked at 76 percent in the first quarter of FY 2007.

In fiscal year 2007, after Dell announced its intention to begin using CPUs made by AMD, the company and the individuals charged failed to disclose the basis for the company's sharp drop in its operating results. "In dollar terms, the reduction in Intel exclusivity payments was equivalent to 75 percent of the decline in Dell's operating income" the SEC said, and Messrs. Dell, Rollins, and Schneider told investors in an earnings call "that the sharp drop in the company's operating results was attributable to Dell pricing too aggressively in the face of slowing demand and to component costs declining less than expected."

Intel is the subject of antitrust lawsuits brought by the Federal Trade Commission and several states. In November 2009, Intel agreed to pay AMD $1.25 billion as part of a settlement in a private antitrust suit brought by AMD.

This reveals the injustice in the prosecution of corporate white collar crime: that Dell and the other people involved at both companies did not face CRIMINAL prosecution and didn't even have to admit guilt, even though there was enough evidence to force them to pay hundreds of millions in fines, which amounts to about 10% of their annual net profit during the last four quarters. Perhaps if Dell and the Intel management and major share holders had to spend some hard time in jail they wouldn't be so willing to flaunt the law for obscene profits. Such puny fines is like a hand-slap and defacto approval of their behavior.

DELL's behavior with Intel suggests that DELL is staying afloat, despite the poor quality of their machines and their high return rates, because Microsoft is paying them to NOT include Ubuntu on their desktops. It also raises questions about the other PC OEMs who won't free up their desktop for competition against Microsoft.

Re:No business in Ubuntu

[luther349]

guess you forgot how big netbooks grew and most ran linux at the time. due to Microsoft ignoring netbooks. of course when they got proven wrong and netbook sales exploded even with linux as there os Microsoft jumped back on that wagon and started putting windows on them. linux can sell its been proven. its just Microsoft runs interference when something like that goes down. they failed on the phone market andoride and iphones have dominated the market and its to late for Microsoft to destroy it with windows. i bet there is some chairs flying around due to them deciding not to make a arm version of 7. and some netbooks are switching to arm/andoirde to escape the x86 death grip Microsoft currently holds.

What apps are like these but free?

[tepples]

i would like you to name one app that does not have a free alt.

The following are proprietary commercial programs available for PCs running Windows. What is the closest equivalent to each that is distributed under a free software license?

• Netflix Watch Instantly
• Adobe Photoshop, including those high-end features that distinguish it from GIMP mods such as GIMPshop
• Adobe Flash CS3
• TurboTax
• Stone Edge Order Manager
• Sonic 3 & Knuckles
• Diablo II
• Starcraft
• Street Fighter IV
• Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2

Re:What apps are like these but free?

[gmhowell]

Ok, I give up. I've kept this comment open in a tab for two hours hoping that the 'year of the Linux desktop' folks would answer the question. Although, I suppose, in a way, their silence speaks volumes.

Re:What apps are like these but free?

[cmwalden]

I don't tend to game on the PC like I used to, so I don't have an answer for any of your games. So, yes... windows is probably a stronger arcade... though I've been more impressed with what Flight Gear can do than I ever was with the Microsoft Flight Simulator. Like many, I've moved my gaming to the Wii, or other consoles.

Hulu and other services provide instant viewing on Linux just fine. The Roku device which allows Netflix instant viewing is Linux-based, but for some reason they continue to deny access to Linux on their web site. This is a decision they have made... not a technological barrier.

I probably don't do the same things with graphics that you do, but I've found GIMP perfectly usable for anything I hand it. I've touched up photos, including removing reflections and other matter from photos, touched up blemishes and red-eye, and a number of other things. I've also used tutorials written for PhotoShop to learn how to do things in GIMP when they were about artistic technique and not idiosyncrasies of the tool. If you want Adobe PhotoShop, precisely and exactly, then it will need to be done by Adobe. That has to be their decision.

There are options to do things like Adobe Flash, including the OpenLaszlo project. Again, they are not precise and exact clones of Adobe. That's the funny thing about intellectual property is that when you create an alternative technology it has to have some differences from the existing version or you end up in court. Again, Adobe has made a decision on this... and if you're letting Adobe determine your technologies then you'll have to follow their lead and move when they say you can.

I've used TurboTax online for the last several years through Linux with no problem. I think their official decision is that they want to move people online and that version works for Linux. It's not free, but I'm not concerned about free... only that it will work for my environment. If everything must be free then I guess anyone can be right in this argument by only choosing technologies which have cost associate with them.

I don't know much about Stone Edge, so I can't say much about it. Looking at the web site it seems to be a pretty specific tool. A lot of people build their computing (and even their business) around a particular tool. If the tool doesn't do it, they don't either. If the tool must do it, then it becomes a core part of their methodology. If you've built your work habits immutably around how specific tools work, then you have to follow the tool.

It is probable that you will never be in a position to move to Linux. That's OK. You need to stay in your comfort zone and where you feel you are most productive. (I know one guy who still swears by his index cards... and they still sell them at the office store.) I think, though, that there are many users who don't have your specific requirements who would find that Linux does everything they need to do "out of the box." I think many who are new to computing would easily develop the knowledge and flexibility on a Linux system in the way that you have developed it on Windows. Many who get the chance to try Linux will make the choice to stick with it... not all... maybe not even most. Isn't what's on each person's computer really about what works for them?

Re:What apps are like these but free?

[tepples]

Like many, I've moved my gaming to the Wii, or other consoles.

Consoles are even worse in some ways. Witness Nintendo killing game mods like Brawl+ in Wii Menu 4.3.

There are options to do things like Adobe Flash, including the OpenLaszlo project.

Based on the Wikipedia article, OpenLaszlo looks more like Flex (an RIA tool from Adobe) than like Flash. Say I want to make something like Homestar Runner, Weebl and Bob, or the kind of vector animations seen on JibJab or Newgrounds or Albino Blacksheep using free software. What do you recommend?

I've also used tutorials written for PhotoShop to learn how to do things in GIMP when they were about artistic technique and not idiosyncrasies of the tool.

And a lot of artistic techniques depend on adjustment layers, a decade-old feature of Photoshop that automatically updates layer B whenever layer A changes by copying from layer A and then running one or more filters. Nobody appears to have the time to implement adjustment layers in GIMP.

I don't know much about Stone Edge, so I can't say much about it.

It's a tool for retailers to track inventory, take orders from customers over the phone or from online stores, make purchase orders to suppliers, receive the inventory, and ship the goods.

Re:What apps are like these but free?

[tepples]

Open Sonic

They had better hurry up with the Surge replacement if they don't want to get cease-and-desisted like the Chrono Trigger Resurrection project.

PlayDeb

Thank you for the recommendation.

Blizzard titles work pretty damn well in WINE.

Wine works well for x86, not so well for non-x86. As netbook makers introduce ARM powered models to save battery, "play all your games on Wine" won't be the easy cop-out that it used to be, at least until DOSBox gains some sort of dynarec.

Re:What apps are like these but free?

[NickFortune]

Wine works well for x86, not so well for non-x86. As netbook makers introduce ARM powered models to save battery, "play all your games on Wine" won't be the easy cop-out that it used to be, at least until DOSBox gains some sort of dynarec.

I'll worry about that when I can play all my games on a netbook in the first place. They're not exactly intended as high-end gaming platforms.

Re:What apps are like these but free?

[tepples]

They're not exactly intended as high-end gaming platforms.

You're right: they're low-end gaming platforms. So why aren't there any games for netbook Linux comparable to Super Mario 64 DS, Animal Crossing: Wild World, or Pokemon Diamond?

Re:What apps are like these but free?

[nschubach]

Wine works well for x86, not so well for non-x86. As netbook makers introduce ARM powered models to save battery, "play all your games on Wine" won't be the easy cop-out that it used to be, at least until DOSBox gains some sort of dynarec.

But you listed Windows applications... and those won't run on ARM either.

Re:What apps are like these but free?

[WhiteDragon]

Bos Wars is a not-half-bad futuristic RTS. Not exactly a Starcraft clone, but still fun.

Re:No business in Ubuntu

[dotnetfreak666]

"Microsoft to destroy it with windows"? Lol thats hillarious. Guess that nothing more could be expected from a limited brain. The netbook market got dominated by Microsoft simply because it works. Personally I have 4 netbooks, I bought one with linux but it was a hell to make things to work. From incompatibilities on opening documents to Flash crashing, etc. I just installed windows and voila! I dont want to spend hours surfing the web researching how to fix things or make things work, I just want to turn it on and start using it, thats all. And Im not a novice computer user, Im a software developer and Im not amused to get dirty, but I simply decided to have a life. Sources: http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/10/05/123253 http://gizmodo.com/5058953/linux-netbooks-are-returned-4x-more-than-win-xp-versions-says-msi

http://www.dell.com/ubuntu

[El_Oscuro]

I am not sure what this article is about, but this original link still works just fine. Oddly, they only have laptops and netbooks for sale, no desktops.

Many people ask why buy a preloaded PC with Linux when you can get the same one with Windows for the same price. I have 2 reasons:

1. All the hardware work with Linux, so even if you don't like the distro installed and want to install Slackware, you know your shit is going to work. Posting this from a Ubuntu dell purchased the day they were offered.
2. Money talks. Every PC you buy preloaded with Linux encourages more Linux friendly hardware. More hardware, more Linux adoption, more games, etc.

I find the Windows desktop to be extraordinary

[bartwol]

I've been trying out Linux desktop distros like every two years for about 10 years. Linux is my home in server-land, and I am eager to live on an open source desktop. But whenever I try, desktop Linux runs into issues...things like power management suspend getting confused under some border condition, or a touchpad delivering less-than-optimal response to scroll gestures. I don't believe any of the machines were certified for Linux by their manufacturers, so the presence of such issues is not surprising.

One could say that a touchpad is a touchpad, power management is power management, and especially that a Dell touchpad is a Dell touchpad. But such enduring but summary labels hide the differences that come from frequent, almost continuous [evolutionary] changes in hardware...a little change here and another one there. Without appropriate mods to driver software, some percentage of those changes give you an Oops! here and a Wuh-oh! there. Even within Dell's own "manufacturing" world (much of which is broadly subcontracted to other companies), the number of power management variations being produced at any moment in time can be dauntingly high.

In the same way that computer manufacturers (e.g. Dell, HP, Lenovo, Apple, etc.) depend on third party hardware technologies to fill their boxes (e.g. CPUs, memory, video, audio, network, power supply, motherboard, etc.), they similarly depend on third parties to build the software drivers (e.g. hardware manufacturers, Microsoft, third party integrators) that make all those evolutionary changes work. My guess is that Dell is shy of Linux because they're having a hard time getting the kind of third-party software support that they get in the Windows environment. If a computer manufacturer were to try to move such driver development capabilities in-house, it seems likely to me that to do so would be both expensive and inefficient (if practical at all).

When we look at Apple, we might see the elegance of design (with narrowed consumer choice). With Linux, we might see the beauty of development in an free software ecosystem. And when we look at Microsoft, we might see the beauty of product choice, functional and often priced to yield a high point in VALUE to the desktop.

Among all platforms, supporters of the Windows platform have most ably made all kinds of hardware work well enough that you could pretty much take it for granted: that shit works. Too easily, almost invisibly, that is taken for granted.

Re:I find the Windows desktop to be extraordinary

[zuperduperman]

The frustrating thing to me is that Linux has been "almost there" for so long. Just yesterday I dug an old computer out of the garage and fired it up. It was running KDE circa 2002. And you know what? It was beautiful - pleasing graphics, everything I want. Almost. I remember when I actually used this machine that life was a constant stream of small annoyances. Small missing features. Things that didn't quite work right. Things that crashed. Wireless network unreliable. Different look and feel among many programs. Fonts in some programs look horrible. Copy and paste unreliable / inconsistent between programs.

I keep trying live distros when they come out. They *are* making progress - hardware support for common things like Wifi cards is much better - but it is sad to me that in almost 10 years the actual progress seems incremental. Maybe the last 5% is 95% of the work. Perhaps one day they will get there. But at the moment it seems to me that the forward progress is slower than the rate of change of technology so we are nearly at an equilibrium and the Linux Desktop is as good as it is ever going to be. Almost - but not quite - as good.

Re:downloading malware

[daveime]

Here you go ...

http://linux.slashdot.org/story/09/12/09/2215253/Malware-Found-Hidden-In-Screensaver-On-Gnome-Look

Numbers, please.

[westlake]

I sell machines with Ubuntu on them. To yoga instructors and flight attendants and 85 year old women.

How many of them do you sell a week - a month - a year? I promise I won't ask how much you pay for rent.

Re:Numbers, please.

[Risen888]

Not a lot by any stretch. 10 per month. I do have another part-time job that keeps me in beer. And although you didn't ask, my rent's cheap, I live in a pretty good renter's market.

I am obviously not Dell. I am a person selling computers to people. I am one guy. Also unlike Dell, I know my customers and can provide a level of personal service that they can't.

But I've been doing this for a few years now, and in that time I've certainly sold more than 200 machines all told, and converted at least half as many Windows machines. I'm obviously not a giant in the field, but but the very least, admit that that is a non-trivial sample size. In that time, I have had one client express dissatisfaction with the software. One. I bat 1.000, and that's something I take a hell of a lot of pride in.

Re:downloading malware

[mdwntr]

Should mention that is a file from a random website, not what anyone sane would call an 'official repository'.

Re:Dell still has 4 laptops with Ubuntu on their s

[Svartalf]

If System76 or ZaReason provided a 17/17.5" i5/i7 laptop, it'd be a gem- but they're still shipping stuff smaller than that. Which is okay, if you're not doing media aggressive stuff or software development. Not enough screen real-estate with the 15.5" screens.

Dude!

[TheABomb]

I'm not getting a Dell!

Re:Wha Wha Wha

[TheABomb]

If I buy a computer that comes with Windows preinstalled, I am paying for it somewhere along the line. It's probably not itemized, but it's built into the cost. On the other hand, offering a Linux option costs nothing but ostensibly helps sales.

Analogy: Go to any restaurant and order a cheeseburger. What you get is not two halves of a bun with beef and cheese between them, but that plus lettuce, tomato, onion, ketchup, mustard, mayonnaise, and Jah only knows what else, and only in the ritziest establishments do the menus tell you what specifically. Now, suppose you have an allergy to one of those extra ingredients (eggs in mayo are a common allergen), and request your sandwich without it. The waiter tells you "Nobody likes a cheeseburger without mayo!" and per restaurant policy, the kitchen refuses to prepare it in a way that you can eat it. Granted, the restaurant cannot logically stock every ingredient a customer might want to eat, and has every right to refuse to prepare a recipe that requires less effort and less cost to prepare, and is less harmful to the customer -- but equally, I've every right to eat somewhere else. (The state of the market right now, it's more a political gesture than anything else, but at least before Dell had something to distinguish itself from its competitors besides its policy of knowingly selling total shit.)

Re:downloading malware

[JohnBailey]

Here you go ...

http://linux.slashdot.org/story/09/12/09/2215253/Malware-Found-Hidden-In-Screensaver-On-Gnome-Look

Not quite. .DEB file = package that is usually, but not exclusively found in a repository. Normally associated with Debian based distros. Functionally equivalent to a Windows EXE file in this case.

Gnome Look = a community run website which allows unrestricted uploads of themes, screen savers, wallpapers, icon sets etc. No review process. Access and I assume uploading rights only require a simple account. Basically, so long as you have an email address, you can upload. So functionally equivalent to a random web site or torrent if we were dealing with Windows.

Repository = a collection of package files maintained and monitored by the distro creator or a third party. Packages included in repositories are usually carefully inspected before inclusion, and responsible maintainers will only accept contributions from known good sources or build from the project's published source code. Using third party repositories is at the user's own risk, and is seen as such.

In your example, a DEB file was downloaded from a website. Not downloaded from a repository by a package manager. No screening, no verification of source, no checks at all. Anybody with sufficient knowledge and freely available software can make a package, but only trusted parties can get one into the distro run repository, or any reputable third party repository.

No repository was compromised. Which was the OP's point. It isn't impossible, just very difficult to anonymously sneak malware or copyright or patent infringing software into a repository. Basically, not worth the effort.

Try again.

Re:Sucky computer selection when they were availab

[rdebath]

The closest they'll do is to put FreeDOS on the machine. Which is actually pretty close really as FreeDOS only shows the CPU & Disk work.

Their main problem though for the 'discerning buyer' has always been the website. It's designed to try and segment the market, to try and turn the collection of parts that a technical buyer sees into a smooth line of "the maximum the punter will pay" of marketing theory. While also trying to simplify everything for the non-technical buyer so they are 'theoretical punters' too.

What this means is that the only way you can really map 'FreeDOS' or 'Linux' onto marketing theory is as 'cheap and nasty' because all OSs are exactly the same and the more you pay the better it is ...

Sigh.

Re:But can you buy a Dell without an operating sys

[fishexe]

It doesn't make sense to force me to by either of them.

How about forcing you to buy a vowel? I suggest a 'u' to complete this puzzle.

Dell does not sell Ubuntu PCs over the phone!

[stripakis]

A few days ago, I chatted online to Dell to inquire about buying a laptop with Ubuntu. Here are the full details of the chat. Seems they do not want to supply machines with Linux even though they advertise this. This is in breach of trading standards laws at least in the UK where I am based. Despite saying that they sell Ubuntu machines over the phone they do not: called them too and the agent I spoke to (somewhere in India) did not have a clue. It seems that MS have exerted pressure on Dell and Dell have succumbed. Session ID: 2277756 12:34:03 I am interested in a laptop but with Linux on it. Which models are available with Linux please? 12:34:53 You are now being connected to an agent. Thank you for using Dell Chat 12:34:53 Connected with raghava reddy varala 12:35:03 Agent Thank you for contacting Dell sales chat. This is Raghav, your Sales Advisor. Please give me a moment while I review your query. 12:38:13 Agent Hello 12:38:18 Agent How are you doing today? 12:38:43 Agent I am afraid we do not have any laptops with Linux operating system 12:40:50 Customer http://search.euro.dell.com/results.aspx?s=gen&c=uk&l=en&cs=&k=linux&cat=all&x=0&y=0 12:41:34 Customer According to your website you do. And I did buy one a couple of years ago, it was an XPS M1330 with Ubuntu on it. 12:41:59 Agent yes it is mentioned on the web site 12:42:04 Agent but we do not have any 12:43:59 Customer What a pity! Windoze is a nightmare, will have to look for another make. OR, do you refund the Windows tax before we go the small claims court or afterwards? 12:47:39 Agent We do not have such options 12:57:01 Customer OK then. Will go for HP. cheers 12:58:57 Agent ok 13:02:32 Agent Is there anything else that I may assist you with today? 13:03:08 System The session has ended!

Re:downloading malware

[daveime]

And there we go ... the apologists RUSH out of the woodwork to defend the fact that their precious Ubuntu is NOT perfect, and use semantics and air-fairy language to pretend a repository is anything more than a glorified website.

Analyze the Parent's excuse for a reply and we see the following (emphasis mine).

Not quite. .DEB file = package that is usually, but not exclusively found in a repository. Normally associated with Debian based distros. Functionally equivalent to a Windows EXE file in this case.

So because the malware came in a package format that CAN be used by Ubuntu, even though it's not the USUAL Ubuntu package format, that means it's somehow exempt ?

Gnome Look = a community run website which allows unrestricted uploads of themes, screen savers, wallpapers, icon sets etc. No review process. Access and I assume uploading rights only require a simple account. Basically, so long as you have an email address, you can upload. So functionally equivalent to a random web site or torrent if we were dealing with Windows.

The ENTIRE Linux O/S is community run. Do you know every single person who wrote code that is contained in that system ? Every torrent or EXE I've ever downloaded goes through the typical community verification, e.g. Marking fakes, warning about malwares and trojans contained in the installer, comments on how it works, ratings out of 10 etc. It's not JUST Linux stuff that has a review process, that all depends on where you obtain your stuff.

Repository = a collection of package files maintained and monitored by the distro creator or a third party. Packages included in repositories are usually carefully inspected before inclusion, and responsible maintainers will only accept contributions from known good sources or build from the project's published source code. Using third party repositories is at the user's own risk, and is seen as such.

I see what you did there. You summarized the entire repository method of trusted software in terms of maybes, usuallys, hopefullys and fingers-crossed. Every is fine until someone you THOUGHT you trusted turns out ot be a bad guy.

In your example, a DEB file was downloaded from a website. Not downloaded from a repository by a package manager. No screening, no verification of source, no checks at all. Anybody with sufficient knowledge and freely available software can make a package, but only trusted parties can get one into the distro run repository, or any reputable third party repository.

Semantics only. Most stuff downloaded from websites will come packaged as an "installer", usually Microsoft's own, or the Nullsoft one, or InstallShield. Again, you say "only trusted parties can get one into the distro run repository, or any reputable third party repository". So it STILL boils down to getting the trust of the repository owner, then slipping in a sneaky bit of code. WHO exactly decides if a third party (or first party) repository is "reputable". No one ... you ASSUME it's reputable, right up until the time something bad happens, then churn out lame excuses rather than accept you model is fundamentally the same as Windows, unless you "happen to know how to read source code, and read EVERY line of the source before installing".

No repository was compromised. Which was the OP's point. It isn't impossible, just very difficult to anonymously sneak malware or copyright or patent infringing software into a repository. Basically, not worth the effort.

It's only worth not worth the effort while the Distros remain obscure ... but something like Ubuntu which seems to be gaining at least some traction and popularity, already we have seen it CAN get a virus or malware, and no amount of handwringing and excuse making will change the fact your "trust model" is in essence the same as Windows for the majority of "non-geek" users. You HOPE th

Linux is not windows!

[anton_kg]

Read this: http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm and stop complaining that Linux is different. Yes, you need to use the package manager, and only this way is the right and easiest. Don't tell me about singed applications and drivers from "a web site". I trust if it comes from a repository only.

Re:downloading malware

[JohnBailey]

And there we go ... the apologists RUSH out of the woodwork to defend the fact that their precious Ubuntu is NOT perfect, and use semantics and air-fairy language to pretend a repository is anything more than a glorified website.

Sorry.. Not an apologist. Not even an ubuntu user. And certainly not suggesting Ubuntu is perfect. I've tried it a few times, but I never really got on with it. I use Fedora. But the points still hold across distros.
OP stated that a package on an unrelated site was a repository breach. You tried to make out that an install file from some website was the same as a package from a repository. Both wrong. Deal with it or prove me wrong.

As to your post.. What exactly is your point?

Perhaps your problem is that I didn't give you a nice easy target by stating that repositories are 100% safe? How dare I! No system is 100% safe. I'm sure the Windows update maintainers have constant nightmares of being compromised. But as with repositories, so far they have not been breached. If you know otherwise for either system, please share the info.

Failing that.. Show me the errors in logic in my points. It might be a good idea to familiarise yourself with the difference between a package and a repository first though. I get the impression you are not quite clear on what they both are.

It's a pretty simple concept.
It is impossible for any user to know 100% what each program is doing, so all we can realistically do to avoid problems is to source our software from as reputable as possible places.

To put it in Windows terms..

A virus scanner installed after an unfamiliar popup appears on a random site telling you that you have an infection is stupid dangerous. The chance of it being legit is statistically insignificant. In fact, I'd say it is a 100% certainty that it is malware. Personally, I've had one tell me that my Fedora computer has an infection on the C: drive.

A firewall from the Pirate bay is strictly dodgy. No way of telling if the firewall software has been tampered with. Who in their right mind would take such a risk?
A firewall from an unknown company you never heard of, and never saw a review on is possibly going to be ok, but still very dangerous. A quick google should at the very least throw up forum posts about it. Not a smart download.
A firewall from Cnet downloads is fairly safe, because they do malware scans on the downloads. But as you say.. We rely on trust. Their scan could be rubbish for all we know. And if there is a review attached, it might be bogus. And any malware scanner is only as good as the definitions.
A firewall from the maker's site, after checking out reviews elsewhere is much safer, but still could contain malware, because you can never be 100% sure that it has not been hacked and tampered with.
A firewall from the Windows download system is about as safe as you can go, but still not 100% because you have no way of telling if a disgruntled programmer has not slipped a nasty little surprise in before being fired. But then the same applies to the distro maker.

Basically, no means of acquiring software is 100% safe. On any OS. So we try to mitigate the risk as much as possible.

Personally, I'd put a third party repository at about the the Cnet level, and a distro repository at the Microsoft level. The DEB file that was referred to would be somewhere between the Pirate bay and an unknown company site. Probably OK, but still a big risk. After all.. it is still giving root access to an unknown file.

As you say.. all based on trust, but unless you can develop your own bespoke OS and all bespoke software entirely from scratch, that is all we really have. Security is a compromise between utility and safety. A 100% secure computer is one that has never been powered up. Anything else is a compromise.

no difference to me

[Asaf.Zamir]

I install Ubuntu over the windows anyway, too bad for the Microsoft-Tax though..