'I've Fallen and I Can't Get Up!' v2.0

theodp writes "Remember those old Lifecall commercials? Well, you've come a long way, Grandma! The NY Times reports on a raft of new technology that's making it possible for adult children to remotely monitor to a stunningly precise degree the daily movements and habits of their aging parents. The purpose is to provide enough supervision to allow elderly people to stay in their homes rather than move to an assisted-living facility or nursing home. Systems like GrandCare, BeClose, QuietCare, and MedMinder allow families to keep tabs on Mom and Dad's whereabouts, and make sure they take their meds. Perhaps Zynga can make a game out of all this — GeriatricVille?"

Comments

great

[FuckingNickName]

Now social services in England will have another excuse not to help people who need human attendance. "This equipment works just as well!" No, some GPS/accelerometer/camera/button is no substitute for the supervision, companionship and observational skill of humans.

Re:great

[PopeRatzo]

Now social services in England will have another excuse not to help people who need human attendance.

The alternative is an archaic system of elder care called "families". I understand it was practiced in some parts of the world back in the 20th century.

Apparently, here in the brave new world of the 21st century, every relative has to work in order to pay off the credit cards and cell phone bill, so there's insufficient personnel to staff these "families".

Re:great

[FuckingNickName]

The alternative is an archaic system of elder care called "families".

Right, where to begin...

(1) Yes, families do have the option to look after older members to a certain degree, and it's sad that parents in some societies are encouraged to separate themselves from their children and vice versa;

(2) But not everyone has children. Recall also that children are a huge unearnt burden to the state, while older people have already paid their national insurance / social security / whatever contributions and are just getting the care they paid for. We are all better off because we do not breed out of concern about our frailties;

(3) There are certain classes of illnesses better tackled by a staff of trained physical and mental health shift workers. For example, someone who is senile but mobile can be a great danger to themselves. They will keep you up all night. When do you propose to sleep?

There are lots of poor alternatives to a good system of social welfare, and assuming that everyone has a loving able family of infinite resources produces one of them.

Re:great

[davester666]

I for one have NO desire to know what 'movements' my parents have, nor when they may have them, nor which type of movement it is.

Re:great

[brasselv]

luddism anyone?
just because a technology is available, it does not automatically make us more evil.

Along those same lines, you could argue that phone is inherently bad - as it is no substitute for comanionship. (phone is not bad: it is just an additional useful tool, to be used wisely)

Re:great

[FuckingNickName]

just because a technology is available, it does not automatically make us more evil.

Just because air is available, it doesn't automatically make us more alive. But it's in our nature to breathe, so it's gonna happen.

These sorts of "enabling" technologies are routinely abused by social services in England because it is in the nature of this government to take as much as possible and give as little as possible, where the "giving" is by mutual back-scratching with private vendors of unnecessary crap.

Re:great

[CohibaVancouver]

Not sure how old you are, but as your parents age, you may find your parents value their independence and won't necessarily want their children around mollycoddling them. These gadgets, used judiciously, make for the best of both worlds - Your parents can continue to live independently in surroundings in which they're comfortable and to which they've grown accustomed, but they still can summon help if they need it. That doesn't mean you shouldn't come around with their grandkids or show up for Sunday dinner or mow dad's lawn or take mum out for brunch, it just means everyone can continue to have peace of mind.

Re:great

[SlideGuitar]

>(1) Yes, families do have the option to look after older members to a certain degree, and it's sad that parents in some societies are encouraged to separate themselves from their children and vice versa;

(2) But not everyone has children. Recall also that children are a huge unearnt burden to the state, while older people have already paid their national insurance / social security / whatever contributions and are just getting the care they paid for. We are all better off because we do not breed out of concern about our frailties; >

My preteen children year old are on firm warning... they can move out of state, but we parents are coming after them and moving into their attics/basements/spare rooms. There is no escape. And we live what we talk, taking care of our mother/mother-in-law next door.

Are we better off if people do not breed for the purposes of old age insurance? I doubt it. We are better off if people do not breed excessively out of fear that disease will utterly deprive them of offspring for old age, but it is probably more sustainable to "entrain" children in the care of parents out of a sense of duty, than it is to free them to maximize their income and then tax that income to pay "someone else" to provide elder care.

We might ask "would it not be more efficient for a lawyer or engineer to earn $200 K and pay someone else $50 K to watch an elder?" but that is probably a rare case. The cost of quality care is the cost of middle class income anyway, roughly, so why should this family service be exogenized into the market as opposed to remaining endogenous to the family?

Well there is ONE very good reason and that is that women are the vastly predominant providers of elder care services. Marketizing those services enables women to have public careers as opposed to be locked into the family care giver role... mother to children, nurse to elders... for their entire life. Families are only "free" if you ignore the lost opportunities they tend to cause for women.

Re:great

[rbphilip]

I don't have children, step-children or any other variation on extended family, so I'm on my own. Technology that allows me to continue to live on my own when/if I become frail would be welcome. I hope, if I become senile, that it happens gradually and/or with lucid phases so I can remove myself from the population and avoid becoming a vegetable.

Re:great

[westlake]

The alternative is an archaic system of elder care called "families". I understand it was practiced in some parts of the world back in the 20th century.

Families were often much larger.

Three kids. Six kids.

Families were often much less mobile.

Five generations of our own family still live within the same township.

Jobs for women outside the household were still scarce.

Before World War Two it wasn't at all unusual for a middle class family of relatively modest income to employ full or part time help.

The alternatives to home care were few and often quite bleak.

Even today, there are only two nursing homes locally that I would willingly place anyone.

Re:great

[h4rr4r]

You might also remember most were not middle class, most were poor. Those poor folks that made all this possible often had horrible lives, the middle class therefore had it's luxury on the backs of these other people.

Re:great

[Beardo the Bearded]

I wrote the code for the Project LIfesaver transmitters. They help people who have wandered away from care. THe average response time is within 30 minutes. (The alternative is to be found later, usually after dying of exposure.)

It has saved thousands of lives.

Re:great

[Anonymous Coward]

Perfect answer. GP might as well move to a third world country where middle class still have full or part time employees - is it worth it? If he wants to, I can exchange my passport with him.

Re:great

[Anonymous Coward]

Before World War Two it wasn't at all unusual for a middle class family of relatively modest income to employ full or part time help

Before WW-II was the Great Depression. Unemployment was over 50%. I doubt that many had hired help during that time.

Re:great

[NewbieProgrammerMan]

We might ask "would it not be more efficient for a lawyer or engineer to earn $200 K and pay someone else $50 K to watch an elder?" but that is probably a rare case.

On the slim hope that someone actually wants to suggest this, please make sure you also include the names of any cities where they pay engineers $200k, because I want to move there.

Re:great

[toadlife]

Curious that you think the NHS (or any other public health system) would abuse this more than a private health insurance company would.

Re:great

[GSV Eat Me Reality]

  Your speculations assume that people are rational. This is not a rational assumption.

  GSVEMR

Re:great

[PopeRatzo]

Before World War Two it wasn't at all unusual for a middle class family of relatively modest income to employ full or part time help.

The rich hated that.

What good is being rich if even the middle class can have domestic help?

Re:great

[PopeRatzo]

Families were often much larger.

Three kids. Six kids.

I come from three generations of two-kid families. Everyone has lived to at least 68 and most over 75. I was the first to go to college. None has gone to "retirement homes". It's to a large part a matter of choice and priority, and to a large part thanks to labor unions, which brought such social advances as health insurance and pensions, which unfortunately have been under constant attack from the ownership class here in the US.

Jobs for women outside the household were still scarce.

Jobs for women outside the home, except during the periods of some glorious war or other, were not as necessary to raise a family.

The alternatives to home care were few and often quite bleak.

They are still quite bleak compared to families. Even the nicest of them.

Re:great

[PopeRatzo]

You might also remember most were not middle class, most were poor.

Sorry, I was referring to the US, not the UK.

We used to have a very large middle class here in the US, thanks to labor unions. It's not so much any more since Reagan, and the ruling corporations realized they couldn't have a middle class with choices if they were going to maximize quarterly profits.

Re:great

[couchslug]

"The alternative is an archaic system of elder care called "families". I understand it was practiced in some parts of the world back in the 20th century"

Elder care is utterly consuming and exhausting. Been there, done that. It is not a one person job, but monitoring tech can help monitor other caregivers (I used cams for this) as well as the oldster in question. The extreme demands of elder care can exhaust even fit, dedicated, informed, and intelligent caregiving relatives.

Modern medical technology ensures years of madness, incontinence, and incontinent madness await most of us. We WILL be a burden on all who care for us (even love doesn't make it not a burden), and should know that long before we turn to shit. There is no heroism in merely living as long as possible, just giving in to fear. Hunter Thompson and Ernest Hemingway were wise to check out before what made them men was taken from them.

Warren Zevon chose differently, and left us this to think about:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qV6E0KYiMmM

Re:great

[Velex]

My preteen children year old are on firm warning... they can move out of state, but we parents are coming after them and moving into their attics/basements/spare rooms. There is no escape.

If my parents did that, I'd call the cops on them for trespassing just like they did for me. I had to resign a good internship because I wasn't certain where I was living for a few days.

In hindsight, sure, I was stupid to trust them without a written lease. I should have ditched them when I was 16 instead of waiting for them to upset my life with a 0-day move-out notice.

Re:great

[PitaBred]

And just what exactly does the government have to give? Have you looked at the budgets lately? You speak as if "the government" is some sort of magical entity that has unlimited resources that appear out of thin air. Or are you volunteering to have your taxes raised? Again?

Re:great

[uvajed_ekil]

Apparently, here in the brave new world of the 21st century, every relative has to work in order to pay off the credit cards and cell phone bill, so there's insufficient personnel to staff these "families".

Well, for a lot of us working is not about credit cards and cell phone bills. Some people lost their "good" jobs when the housing industry and the economy tanked, and are forced to work two really crappy ones (those of us that can even get them), just to make ends meet and not lose our modest homes. (And, for the record, giving up my home is not an option, as my mortgage payment is less than what I'd pay for a halfway decent apartment) I'd love to take care of my mom all day, but if I did, I'd have to move into her tiny house (because I'd lose my house, which she can't get around in because of all the stairs), and YOU'D be paying for me to eat and go to the doctor, because I would have no income. Now, if we had universal healthcare, reasonably priced education (I'll probably be paying for college forever), and any ability to recover after losing jobs and our credit ratings getting screwed (which, ironically, hurts when looking for a good job, which would allow us to fix things), then our families might have the ability to care for our elderly again.

Oh yeah, and if veeryone didn't live for 30-40 years after retiring, and modern medicine didn't keep people hanging on by a thread when they have no business being alive, unlike back in the goold ole days you speak of, this would all be lot more likely. Times change, we don't all have 12 kids, sit around the fire after dinner, reading our one book by the light of the candle we made, and die of disease by age 45. Families have changed, too.

Re:great

[westlake]

Before WW-II was the Great Depression. Unemployment was over 50%. I doubt that many had hired help during that time.

Unemployment was high - but at its peak, more like 20% than 50%. Great Depression in the United States Race and sex could up those numbers dramatically, of course.

Not everyone goes bust in hard times - not everyone prospers in boom times.

If you had a middle class income in the Depression, domestic help was easy to find and cheap.

Re:great

[Anonymous Coward]

Yet.

I'm a programmer, you insensitive clod!

Re:great

[phantomlord]

I'd love to take care of my mom all day, but if I did, I'd have to move into her tiny house (because I'd lose my house, which she can't get around in because of all the stairs), and YOU'D be paying for me to eat and go to the doctor, because I would have no income. Now, if we had universal healthcare, reasonably priced education (I'll probably be paying for college forever), and any ability to recover after losing jobs and our credit ratings getting screwed (which, ironically, hurts when looking for a good job, which would allow us to fix things), then our families might have the ability to care for our elderly again.

I DO take care of a disabled parent and have for 12 years, almost entirely by myself. I've been in the position of being unemployed for the last 4 years - you think it's hard getting a job right now, try getting a job that allows you to take a physically disabled parent to work with you since working is pointless unless you can make more, after taxes, than it costs to send the parent to adult daycare ($60+ per day (meaning you need to make at least $90, or about $12/hr just to break even or $20/hr to earn minimum wage after expenses)) or a home health aide ($24/hr through the agency that came for my dad when he first came home, which is even more expensive than the daycare option). I live with him in the same house I grew up in - his bedroom and the bathroom are on the first floor. We get by on his modest retirement income of about $25k per year, and yeah, that included paying a mortgage for 11 of the last 12 years (we paid off the house last year). His medical bills have become rather substantial since he's developed diabetes and various other complications after his brain aneurysm/stroke that rendered him immobile on his left side, and thus, largely non-ambulatory... but we get by.

As for me, I dropped my private health insurance 5 years ago. After 6 years, my premiums had gone from $200/month to nearly $500/month, largely because of new mandates required by the state insurance board. The likelihood of me needing expensive care at the age of 28 is pretty slim, not worth $6000 annually to me (and that wasn't the cadillac plan, I had high co-pays and whatnot). I'd love to buy catastrophic coverage, but my state won't let me and the federal government won't let me buy across state lines. Over the past 5 years, I've saved somewhere between $35-40k on premiums while my medical expenses amounted to $115, $515 or so if you want to include my glasses and contacts. I qualify for most of the welfare slate, including medical, but I refuse to take it because I believe that, on principle, it is theft for me to do so. I put up with some minor issues like tendonitis in my elbow and bone spurs in my feet, choosing to treat myself rather than go for surgery since it isn't necessary at this point (and I will pay for it when it is) and, in the case of my heels, because I can't be off my feet for weeks to heal post-surgery.

Most of his family shares the modern day American value of "me, me, me" and they do nothing to help. The vast majority of his family doesn't even call to check to see how he's doing. Why should they put themselves out in any manner to help a family member? While pretty shitty of them, it isn't their responsibility to care for him. Likewise, it is even less the responsibility of you or some other slashdotter, since you aren't even related to him. The government sees absolutely no value in him - he'll be a net loss for the rest of his life, thus, if they were in control, they have every reason to let him die early to save money. That goes likewise for the insurance companies if he wasn't on Medicare (hey, unlike me, he paid a lifetime of premiums). His family may like the idea of the someone taking care of him, so they don't have to feel guilty for not doing it, but that doesn't make government the moral choice. Too many people say "hey, I paid my taxes, so why should I have to give to charity on top of that?," which is the danger of government "promi

Re:great

[DerekLyons]

My preteen children year old are on firm warning... they can move out of state, but we parents are coming after them and moving into their attics/basements/spare rooms. There is no escape. And we live what we talk, taking care of our mother/mother-in-law next door.

No you aren't living what you're talking - you're choosing to take care of your mother in law, you're forcing your children to take care of you. I'm damn glad I'm not your child because you're not only a liar - you're ignorant and stupid enough to not even recognize your lie.

Re:great

[Gordonjcp]

I liked the idea that the operators of a nursing home in Germany had, where they put a fake bus stop at the end of the road. They looked after a lot of Alzheimer's patients, who would wander off and try to make their way home. Of course, they'd get as far as the bus stop, and wait for a bus - so if you noticed someone was missing you knew the first place to look.

It's a bigger problem than people realise. I used to work near a nursing home, where one of my minion's grandmother stayed. About once a week she'd wander off and walk the six or seven miles back to her old house, assuming that minion or I didn't notice and set off in the car to retrieve her. The nursing home never learned from the experience.

Re:great

[myrmidon666]

we do not breed out of concern about our frailties

Is that why we don't breed? Huh.. I thought it was because we are slashdotters..

Re:great

[Rene S. Hollan]

No, we have to work to pay the damn taxes to feed the freeloaders, to the point where both primary adults in a family have to work.

Re:great

[SlideGuitar]

Forgot sense of humor?

We value sticking together... we value it in our mutual decision (hers, mine, my spouse's) to be next door neighbors with our mother/mother in law... we value it in our hopes to remain near our children when they are adults... and we raise our children under the guidance of the always apt maxim "be nice to your children, they may be picking your nursing home... or deciding whether you can live next door or in their house."

"ignorant", "stupid", "lie" -- seriously, is there an eye rolling icon big enough for this kind of nonsense?

Re:great

[FuckingNickName]

The chip on your shoulder got the better of you ;-). I made no statement that a private health insurance company would behave any better. I also stated that the behaviour is in the nature of this government, not any government. This government has existed in an idealistic and practical sense since the '80s.

The NHS of Bevan, for example, was not in the business of cutting back and selling off.

Re:great

[FuckingNickName]

I've been spending the last decade looking at the budgets and doomsaying, but it's fallen on deaf ears. The few mathematicians/investors/whatever who have tried to speak up about the unsustainable behaviour of the market were firmly ignored by government and media because it was in the interest of the wealthy to promote this short-term profiteering and everyone else seemed to enjoy the ride.

Anyway, today I see lots of money being channeled to (at the high level) war, Trident, bailouts, (at the lower level) sooo much middle-management bureaucracy, public-private partnerships, etc. Then I see a couple of mouthfuls of gruel going into social care.

And, yes, raise taxes for those who profit from speculative investment. London today is little more than a paper exchange and PR management office. Return Britain to actually building and inventing.

Re:great

[Pharmboy]

Wow, I think you don't quite get it. He can't force his kids to take care of him, but he can lead by example and tell his kids that he wants to stay a family together, and encourage them to do the same. He has a strong desire to help his parents, and instill those values to his kids. Personally, I find this a good thing, not a bad thing. Obviously, his children can always choose to not assist their parents when they are elderly, there is no way to force that issue.

Re:great

[Anonymous Coward]

My preteen children year old are on firm warning... they can move out of state, but we parents are coming after them and moving into their attics/basements/spare rooms. There is no escape. And we live what we talk, taking care of our mother/mother-in-law next door.

If I were your kids I'd have you out on your ass for trespassing. You do not have a right to control your children forever and there is NOTHING you can do about it, and that is exactly as it should be. Fuck you.

Re:great

[CGordy]

If you're a process (chemical), reservoir or mechanical engineer and have 10+ years experience, you'll earn almost double that is lovely locations like Baghdad, Basra, Port Harcourt and Lagos.

To be honest, you can earn 200k working as an engineer almost anywhere in the developing world provided you go there on an expatriate package. A lucky few get sent to first world locations on this type of arrangement, but they don't end up with as much money to take home and the end of their assignment (higher costs of living).

The only pitfall is that you may end up with some very complicated tax arrangements when you get back home, depending on the tax laws of your home country. It is common for expatriate staff to be paid in a third low tax country, and then the challenge is getting the money back to your future home.

Re:great

[DaveGod]

The alternative is an archaic system of elder care called "families". I understand it was practiced in some parts of the world back in the 20th century.

US Life Expectancy [PDF]:

Born 1900: 49

Born 2000: 77

Immediately from this we can see the task of looking after an old person is not the same. Very, very unfortunately, this is not even close to being the problem.

Compounding the life expectancy is the birth rates over the period. For example, in Britain already the number of pensioners exceed the number of children. By 2060 there will be 2 adults of working age for every 1 pensioner. Adults of working age of course includes 16+ year olds, university students and so on, and people in the vital early years of building careers.

The demographics are frightening. Yet it doesn't end there. There's a massive pensions crisis looming, people are buying homes later and are more debt-ridden - few people have any real capital anymore.

The demographic time bomb has been well understood, almost from the moment it began ticking. It very likely will have far more severe consequences (at least here in the West) than The Environment, but it's just being swept under the carpet. Let's be clear, the need for pensioners to remain autonomous and allow families to remain working is utterly critical.

Re:great

[SirRedTooth]

the middle class therefore had it's luxury on the backs of these other people

Now they call them bankers. Oh how times have change

Re:great

[DerekLyons]

Forgot sense of humor?

There's no logical place for a smiley in your post, nor humorous tone.
 

We value sticking together... we value it in our mutual decision

Except you aren't making a mutual decision with your children - you've already made the decision. You've already decided they're living by your values - regardless of what their turn out to be.
 

we raise our children under the guidance of the always apt maxim "be nice to your children, they may be picking your nursing home... or deciding whether you can live next door or in their house."

Except, again, you aren't allowing them to make the decision - you've already made it for them.

Re:great

[sourcerror]

And you know what was before the 20th century? Those who weren't productive anymore, and needed extensive care committed suicide/were killed. If you want to know more about it look for William Graham Sumner's books.
(But it's well documented by Hungarian sociologists as well, but I don't think you can read that.)

Re:great

[PopeRatzo]

But not everyone has children.

Even people without children often have families. Growing up, my great aunt who was a "spinster" lived with us until her death in '72.

Because she was part of our family.

Re:great

[Delarth799]

No, some GPS/accelerometer/camera/button is no substitute for the supervision, companionship and observational skill of humans.

That's what cats and dogs are for.

Re:great

[Derf the]

If my parents did that, I'd call the cops on them for trespassing just like they did for me. I had to resign a good internship because I wasn't certain where I was living for a few days.

In hindsight, sure, I was stupid to trust them without a written lease. I should have ditched them when I was 16 instead of waiting for them to upset my life with a 0-day move-out notice.

I don't know for sure, but I am thinking we may have been deprived of some pertinent facts to the above story (by Velex) to fully earn its present Insightful tag.

Re:great

[Derf the]

How exactly is she "forcing" her values into their actions? Please specify as I am intrigued as to your thought progression.

Re:great

[PopeRatzo]

And you know what was before the 20th century? Those who weren't productive anymore, and needed extensive care committed suicide/were killed

So, in the 1850s, nobody took care of their aging parents or handicapped children?

You're insane. I doubt very much that Mr Sumner said anything like that.

Re:great

[PopeRatzo]

You compare 1900 to 2000. But for the last few generations, the life expectancy hasn't changed much at all, at least not in the US, where it seems to be holding steady.

People like me who grew up in extended families were not able to do so because people died younger. My grandparents both lived to their late 80s and they were born right around 1900.

My point is that the things that have changed in the past few generations regarding the care of the elderly are not because of extended lifespans.

Re:great

[toadlife]

The chip on your shoulder got the better of you

Touche.

This government has existed in an idealistic and practical sense since the '80s.

Thatcher?

Her soul mate, Ronald "Ray-Gun" had a similar effect over here.

Re:great

[Archangel Michael]

Or you can go back a president. Perhaps you don't remember the malaise of the 70s. Double Digit inflation, gas rationing, Iran (we're still dealing with that mess).

AND LET US NOT FORGET DISCO!!!

Re:great

[Archangel Michael]

Health Insurance was something derived from WWII, when wages were frozen for the war. Entrepreneurial companies added both Pensions and Health Insurance to white collar workers "packages", in lieu of wages they couldn't offer.

With the advent of 401k, pensions and other retirement funds, anyone having one of these are the "ownership" class you deride.

The downfall of the middle class has been caused by people living beyond their means, and the expectation that the government is here to rescue you from your poor decisions and planning.

You know, credit card debt, cars and houses they can't afford, and $5 lattes. How many people do you know are in debt over their heads? And how many of those expect ME (tax payer, not in debt) to continue to bail them out?

And Obama bails them out, and put tax cheats in charge of the "solution". Good one. I'm the chump for not taking out 50K in credit card debt and a house I couldn't afford.

And the war sucks. We should have nuked the place and left. I'm sick of cleaning up broken countries run by tyrants. Either that, or let the rest of the world deal with them for a change (yeah right, like that will ever happen).

Re:great

[sourcerror]

"So, in the 1850s, nobody took care of their aging parents or handicapped children?"

If you had enough money, you would, otherwise not.
Sumner researched mostly tribal people. But similar practices also existed in Europe during the 19.th century as well.

Re:great

[PopeRatzo]

AND LET US NOT FORGET DISCO!!!

I've spent thousands on therapy and pharmaceuticals trying to forget Disco. I should only be so lucky.

And that "malaise" of the '70s? People's incomes (in real terms) were greater then than they were in 2005. And regarding Iran, you don't blame Jimmy Carter for Iran, you blame the assholes who tried to prop up the Shah for so many years. If we'd have let Iran have elections back then, we wouldn't have problems with Iran today.

Re:great

[Archangel Michael]

"If we'd have let Iran have elections back then, we wouldn't have problems with Iran today."

Pure speculation. We basically sponsored the Taliban in Afghanistan only to have them support people who flew aircraft into buildings 9 years ago.

Besides, many dictators were elected. Just look at Afghanistan now, elected dictator, just as corrupt as the regimes before. The culture breeds corruption (like DC does). Power corrupts and all that.

IMHO we only have two options, supporting people we can control (by whatever means) and having people hate us, or not supporting anyone and having people hate us, just for different reasons.

Being nice to people who aren't is not productive at all. That is, unless you're their lapdog. Even so, that only lasts while it is convenient.

GeriatricVille

[shaunbr]

Great, I can just see the Facebook updates now:

"My grandma just had a heart attack and fell in the bathroom in GeriatricVille. Can you help me out?"

Re:GeriatricVille

[nacturation]

Actually I think PharmVille would be more appropriate to ensure they're taking their meds.

Re:GeriatricVille

[DiEx-15]

Please don't tempt Zynga... They are the Game Developer answer to forum trolls!

More likely v2.0

[Anonymous Coward]

Instead of new technology to prevent mom and dad from assisted-living, you just move back home and do it yourself. Will be cheaper in the long run. And despite many an annoyance you can get real close real fast. And you are only paying back for the times they had to wipe your ass, etc.

Re:More likely v2.0

[mangu]

Instead of new technology to prevent mom and dad from assisted-living, you just move back home and do it yourself

In case you don't know, there are people who have to work for a living and can't stay home all day taking care of their parents.

Re:More likely v2.0

[jadavis]

Considering that Social Security is a multi-trillion dollar program that exists mostly so that children can avoid living with their aging parents, these devices seem like a small price to pay by comparison.

Re:More likely v2.0

[BiggerIsBetter]

In case you don't know, there are people who have to work for a living and can't stay home all day taking care of their parents.

Also, in case you don't know, there are people who have to work for a living and can't stay home all day taking care of their children.

It's all about priorities. Not judging, just saying.

Re:More likely v2.0

[toadlife]

What you say it true, but you are judging. Have you ever taken care and overweight, barely mobile, extremely demented 78 year old grandmother who regularly shits herself and screams obscenities at you when you try to clean it up for her?

That's what my wife did, while attending graduate school and taking care of our three children. And when the stress got so bad that she came down with pneumonia and was in bed for a week, I got to take a nice, unplanned vacation and have a go at myself. And yes, we did end up getting a modicum of assistance from the state (IIRC, about ~$500 a month), though it didn't come close to paying the actual costs.

Re:More likely v2.0

[couchslug]

"Instead of new technology to prevent mom and dad from assisted-living, you just move back home and do it yourself. Will be cheaper in the long run. And despite many an annoyance you can get real close real fast. And you are only paying back for the times they had to wipe your ass, etc."

It isn't annoyance, it's exhaustion. Let us know after you get to the stage where you help them through complete disability and death how "easier" and "cheaper" it was.

Re:More likely v2.0

[PitaBred]

Yes. I prioritize being able to afford decent housing for my children over spending all day with them sleeping in a cardboard box.

Re:More likely v2.0

[phantomlord]

It isn't annoyance, it's exhaustion. Let us know after you get to the stage where you help them through complete disability and death how "easier" and "cheaper" it was.

It may not be easier than throwing them in a home, and cheaper depends on the circumstances, but it certainly is much more fulfilling to know that your sacrifices have given a loved one a quality of life that they would have never achieved elsewhere.

In 12 years, I've lost thousands of hours of sleep, I've cleaned up more puke and diarrhea than I can remember, I've probably given up hundreds of thousands of dollars in income over the course of my life... and when I see the look in my dad's eyes when his granddaughter (my sister's kid) climbs up in bed next to him, gives him a kiss and hug, and then tells him that she loves him and is glad he's doing a sleepover, well... I have no doubts about my choice regardless of the sacrifices I've made along the way. I have a lot of regrets in my life, but choosing to take care of my dad isn't one of them.

Global Parent System.

[Anonymous Coward]

Well as someone taking care of an Alzheimer parent I can see how all this will be beneficial. Being a caregiver is hard and we need all the help we can muster.

Re:Global Parent System.

[networkBoy]

FWIW,
    We have a potential wanderer. I hope that doesn't end up happening, but when we built the cottage for her we enclosed the front door *behind* the fence line, rather than in front.
Padlock the garage doors and change the locks on the gates, presto, secure compound for our wanderer, should it come to that.
As it is right now, she is just very forgetful. As long as she stays on her routine everything is fine (it's just like some of us geeks typing in our login. Couldn't tell you what it is, but if you put a keyboard in front of me I can type it).

This is most noticeable when she is doing part of her daily routine and the great grand kids interrupt her. Whatever it was either is left undone at whatever state it was, or is done over from the beginning.
-nB

Nice...

[Dan East]

"Grandpa, you'd better wipe really good because it sounds like you have the runs."

Re:Nice...

[couchslug]

""Grandpa, you'd better wipe really good because it sounds like you have the runs."

Grandpa will likely get to where YOU do the wiping. One gets used to it...

In the movies...

[Anne_Nonymous]

A octogenarian 007 would probably deal with this by attaching the device to a friendly dog, and going about his geriatric super-spy business.

Re:In the movies...

[martin-boundary]

Or maybe a freak nuclear accident would turn all the people over 60 into zombies, which could be tracked as green beeping/moving points on the hero's GPS handheld device while he escapes through the sewer tunnels.

Re:In the movies...

[Anonymous Coward]

"I've never noticed this before, but Grandpa sure enjoys spending quality time around fire hydrants!"

Skynet

[Reginald2]

There is absolutely nothing super creepy about this.

Honestly though, I don't know if the British have nursing homes better than us. Creepy as it is it may be a little better than what we've got.

Bathroom Activity Monitoring Based on Sound

[Nick Fel]

Along these lines, I found a great research paper abandoned at the printer a few weeks back: http://www.yaroslavvb.com/papers/chen-bathroom.pdf

Re:Bathroom Activity Monitoring Based on Sound

[DevConcepts]

I didn't write this but it is fitting....
~~~~~~~~~~~~
All in all, it hadn't been a good day. Bad traffic, a malfunctioning computer, incompetent coworkers and a sore back all made me a seething cauldron of rage. But more importantly for this story, it had been over forty-eight hours since I'd last taken a dump.

I'd tried to jumpstart the process, beginning my day with a bowl of bowel-cleansing fiber cereal, following it with six cups of coffee at work, and adding a bean-laden lunch at Taco Bell.

As I was returning home from work, my insides let me know with subtle rumbles and the emission of the occasional tiny fart that Big Things would be happening soon. Alas, I had to stop at the mall to pick up an order. I completed this task, and as I was walking past the stores on my way back to the car, I noticed a large sale sign proclaiming, "Everything Must Go!" This was prophetic, for my colon informed me with a sudden violent cramp and a wet, squeaky fart that everything was indeed about to go. I hurried to the mall bathroom. I surveyed the five stalls, which I have numbered 0 through 4 (I write a lot of software) for your convenience:

0.Occupied

1.Clean, but Bathroom Protocol forbids its use, as it's next to the occupied one.

2.Poo on seat.

3.Poo and toilet paper in bowl, unidentifiable liquid splattered on seat.

4.No toilet paper, no stall door, unidentifiable sticky object near base of toilet.

Clearly, it had to be Stall #1. I trudged back, entered, dropped trou and sat down. I'm normally a fairly Shameful Shitter. I wasn't happy about being next to the occupied stall, but Big Things were afoot.

I was just getting ready to bear down when all of a sudden the sweet sounds of Beethoven came from next door, followed by a fumbling, and then the sound of a voice answering the ringing phone. As usual for a cell phone conversation, the voice was exactly 8 dB louder than it needed to be. Out of Shameful habit, my sphincter slammed shut. The inane conversation went on and on. Mr. Shitter was blathering to Mrs. Shitter about the shitty day he had. I sat there, cramping and miserable, waiting for him to finish. As the loud conversation dragged on, I became angrier and angrier, thinking that I, too, had a crappy day, but I was too polite to yak about in public. My bowels let me know in no uncertain terms that if I didn't get crapping soon, my day would be getting even crappier.

Finally my anger reached a point that overcame Shamefulness. I no longer cared. I gripped the toilet paper holder in one hand, braced my other hand against the side of the stall, and pushed with all my might. I was rewarded with a fart of colossal magnitude -- a cross between the sound of someone ripping a very wet bed sheet in half and of plywood being torn off a wall. The sound gradually transitioned into a heavily modulated low-RPM tone, not unlike someone firing up a Harley. I managed to hit resonance frequency of the stall, and it shook gently.

-

Once my ass cheeks stopped flapping in the breeze, three things became apparent:
(1) The next-door conversation had ceased;

(2) my colon's continued seizing indicated that there was more to come; and

(3) the bathroom was now beset by a horrible, eldritch stench.

It was as if a gateway to Hell had been opened. The foul miasma quickly made its way under the stall and began choking my poop-mate.This initial "herald" fart had ended his conversation in mid-sentence.

"Oh my God," I heard him utter, following it with the suppressed sounds of choking, and then, "No, baby, that wasn't me (cough, gag), you could hear that (gag)??"

Next door I could hear fumbling with the paper dispenser as he desperately tried to finish his task. Little snatches of conversation made themselves heard over my anal symphony: "Gotta go... horrible...throw up... in my mouth.... not... make it... tell the kids... love them... oh God..." followed by more sounds of suppressed gagging and retching.

-

Alas, it is evidently dif

Re:Bathroom Activity Monitoring Based on Sound

[Anonymous Coward]

Unknown subject: *Pffffffffffffffbbbbbbbbbbtttttttttttt*

[Computer whirs briefly and then identifies unknown subject as grandma via sound recognition]

Bathroom monitor 9000: Good evening, Mrs. Smith. It sounds like someone had beans for dinner.

Has anyone ever done an analysis....

[mark-t]

... into what caused that particular line from the old commercial to become so infamous?

It actually was a very serious commercial, but nobody I knew at the time took it very seriously. In fact, that rather famous line was not infrequently mocked by people, quoted satirically, or parodied. I do not think this was done out of disrespect for the elderly, however.

So what was it that made that line become what today we would call a "meme"?

I wonder if KYM could do a meme show on something from that far back.... could be interesting.

Re:Has anyone ever done an analysis....

[Anonymous Coward]

In all likelihood the horrible quality of delivery of that line in the commercial. There is similar mocking of Alfred Brimly's diabetes ads, several of the burial coverage life insurance ads and Billy Mays' infomercials. This one probably is a bit better known just from over saturation and that the acting quality was just that bad. It is kind of the same phenomenon as when a movie is so bad that it is good.

Re:Has anyone ever done an analysis....

[GringoChapin]

Wonder if this classic from Slant 6 and the Jumpstarts, which was played on the Dr. Demento show several times had something to do with it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPfH-umG_ms

Re:Has anyone ever done an analysis....

[Ol Biscuitbarrel]

I'm pretty sure it was used on MST3K - one of those movies with Gamera the flying turtle, perhaps. I'd sometimes snicker at some goofy line in a commercial and then see it promptly wind up on a Best Brains production - for instance, those awful infomercials with a near-to-breakdown Sally Struthers tearfully asking "Would you like to make more money? Sure, we all would!" It was also always a treat for them to quote lines I hadn't heard in 25 years, like "This is John Cameron Swayze for Timex!" Dunno how influential MST3k was in this regard when they were just fabricating the Internetz Tubez.

Re:Has anyone ever done an analysis....

[maxume]

I don't think you need to do any deep analysis, it was hilariously over-dramatic.

People like hilarity.

Re:Has anyone ever done an analysis....

[R3d M3rcury]

1. The commercial is--perhaps unintentionally--humorous. The old person is a horrible actor. The spokesperson walks into the room and starts talking to the camera, giving it a somewhat Rod Serlingesque feel from "The Twilight Zone." Hey Buddy! Why don't you help the old lady before you start talking to us!? (Newer versions of the commercial use a different approach)
2. It's something we laugh about because the young don't like to face the eventuality that they will ever need such a thing.

I'm sure it's a combination of the two.

Re:Has anyone ever done an analysis....

[Anonymous Coward]

The North American sitcom "Family Matters" had a lovable-yet-dorky character who would often fall down and say "I've fallen and I can't get up." Much hilarity was had by all, and to this day that same phrase is known as comedy rather than tragedy.

Well that's easy to remember!

[Vahokif]

0118 999 881 999 919 725

3

Re:Well that's easy to remember!

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, I think you may have forgotten it. It's 0118 999 881 999 119 725 3

Re:Well that's easy to remember!

[TheGothicGuardian]

I don't see how they couldn't just keep the other one. I mean, how hard is it to remember 911?

This is a bug, not a feature

[turing_m]

If I had alzheimers to the point where I was wandering off into the woods somewhere, unable to get home, I don't think I'd like to be "rescued" with a GPS device. My own grandfather (alzheimers) tried to commit suicide at least once by sitting in his car in his garage with the engine turned on. He was found and "rescued". He lived to a somewhat older age, with all the dignity of a crazy old man, not knowing who most of his relatives were, shitting his pants, etc. I hope my relatives don't keep me around against my will as a still technically living reminder of the person I once was.

As the usual proportion of baby boomers start to become demented, I hope we will see some more realism about what dementia is. There will be a lot of demented people and the associated problems will become commonly experienced. Car accidents for one. It's not going to be pretty.

Re:This is a bug, not a feature

[Nyder]

If I had alzheimers to the point where I was wandering off into the woods somewhere, unable to get home, I don't think I'd like to be "rescued" with a GPS device. My own grandfather (alzheimers) tried to commit suicide at least once by sitting in his car in his garage with the engine turned on. He was found and "rescued". He lived to a somewhat older age, with all the dignity of a crazy old man, not knowing who most of his relatives were, shitting his pants, etc. I hope my relatives don't keep me around against my will as a still technically living reminder of the person I once was.

As the usual proportion of baby boomers start to become demented, I hope we will see some more realism about what dementia is. There will be a lot of demented people and the associated problems will become commonly experienced. Car accidents for one. It's not going to be pretty.

As long as it's on youtube, i'm cool with it.

Anyways, it's karma for those same baby boomers dropping the ball in the 80's, when they decided to become yuppies and leave their hippy ideas behind.

Re:This is a bug, not a feature

[westlake]

If I had alzheimers to the point where I was wandering off into the woods somewhere, unable to get home, I don't think I'd like to be "rescued" with a GPS device.

What makes you think you would remember that you had Alzheimer's Disease?

It is arrogant and irresponsible to project your own motives and emotions into the mind of someone with a senile dementia.

My own grandfather (alzheimers) tried to commit suicide at least once by sitting in his car in his garage with the engine turned on

How can you be so certain that he was trying to commit suicide - rather than simply unable to do more than start the engine?

Unable even to remember that he had started the engine?

Re:This is a bug, not a feature

[rbphilip]

I can't help but agree. It's our minds that make us human and if mine were going I'd want to have the opportunity to neatly kill myself.

Re:This is a bug, not a feature

[toadlife]

Have you ever taken care of someone who is severely demented?

Re:This is a bug, not a feature

[R3d M3rcury]

I have and I agree with the GP.

I'd also add "not sure what that noise is."

It's amazing what this sort of thing does to the thought processes. My Dad passed away last year. Whenever I'd call home, I'd ask my Mom, "How's Dad doing?" "Oh, he has his good days and his bad days." To me, a "Good Day" was he was perfectly normal and a "Bad Day" was that he had problems remembering things. The reality was that a "Good Day" was that he remembered where the bathroom was and how to use the toilet before he shit himself.

Suicide? He was hardly able to contemplate eating. Forget such a complex emotion as ending ones own life.

Re:This is a bug, not a feature

[couchslug]

"It is arrogant and irresponsible to project your own motives and emotions into the mind of someone with a senile dementia."

Senile dementia is so mentally destructive that interfering with an apparent suicide attempt is extremely cruel. I watched both my parents eventually succumb, and if I'd walked in on either doing "suicide by car" I'd have walked out and shut the door. THAT would have been kindness.

May everyone who wants to prolong the life of the demented, become demented themselves. It takes a while, so you can know the bitter frustration of losing your faculties bit by bit by bit...

Re:This is a bug, not a feature

[uninformedLuddite]

It will probably only be a few years but the option will be made available to us all. The best part is there will be a panel of experts that convene to decide wether or not an addled person would like to choose that option. Imagine the bribery.

Re:This is a bug, not a feature

[Anonymous Coward]

Because having alzheimers doesn't automatically turn you into a goldfish overnight? Because it's something that starts off mild and slowly gets worse?

Re:This is a bug, not a feature

[Anonymous Coward]

so where are the "Stop-n-Drop" booths that we've been promised?

Re:This is a bug, not a feature

[KingAlanI]

I admit is was extremely frustrating and sad to watch to the decline of some older relatives, Alzheimer's or otherwise.

Coming soon to a job or government near you!

[DNS-and-BIND]

The first three groups of people in any society who always give up their rights before anyone else:

1. Children and the elderly, because they cannot speak for themselves;
2. Prisoners, because they have forfeited their rights by harming the rest of us; and
3. Military, because they voluntarily relinquish their rights in order to serve the rest of us.

You're kidding yourself if you think wearing one of these won't be mandatory to qualify for a life insurance policy in 10 years. Without life insurance, you can't get a job, without a job, you can't get a citizen number, without a citizen number, you can't buy food from state-owned stores (because food distribution is too important to be left in the hands of crazed free market advocates). Fill in the blanks with snippets from the dystopian sci-fi writer of your choice.

Re:Coming soon to a job or government near you!

[Jedi Alec]

Let me take a wild guess, you're sufficiently afraid of the medical establishment to have avoided contact with them for an extended amount of time?

Because that is one serious case of paranoia you got going on there...

Re:Coming soon to a job or government near you!

[couchslug]

"Because that is one serious case of paranoia you got going on there..."

That's not a display of paranoia, it's a display of delectation at being among the enlightened. Fapping to dystopia has always been delicious.

Re:Coming soon to a job or government near you!

[Failed Physicist]

Actually, sounds like a serious case of education to me. Sounds like there's some sociology, economics, and political science in there. There's even a preexisting condition of history; some nasty shit.
Got bit by that bug a while ago, never got back on my feet. Seems like the aches are even worse lately.
Can't you tell in your bones when a storm is coming?

Re:Coming soon to a job or government near you!

[Anonymous Coward]

You guys are so much like religious doomsday cultists. Decade after decade passes without the event ever happening, and yet you still insist that it's happening right now.

Re:Coming soon to a job or government near you!

[DNS-and-BIND]

No, but thanks for the wild-ass guess at my motives, which, frankly, reveals more about yourself, Mr. Jedi, than me. I've made this exact same children/prisoners/military argument in many slashdot discussions over the years. I'm not sure where you got the medical paranoia thing from. However, these days, I see that strawmen are highly fashionable and the best way to attack someone is to fashion a false idea of what your brain tells you they think and then knock it down. Works almost every time.

Viagra problems now:

[Tablizer]

"Help, I've got up and I can't come down!"

Re:Viagra problems now:

[game kid]

"We're sending nude pictures of your wife immediately, Mr. Fletcher."

Helicopter children

[basketcase]

So, some day the children of helicopter parents will get their revenge.
Assuming some of them at some point learn how to live.

Gee what happened to grandma living with her kids?

[stevegee58]

What a lonely thing it's become to grow old in our society.

GeriatricVille?

[countertrolling]

You're thinking of Jimmy Buffet...

Yes, but is mom going to be ok with it?

[NotSoHeavyD3]

I had an instance of this when I was taking care of mom in her last few months. (With ALS for what it's worth) I basically got a baby monitor and was going to set it up in her room so I could hear if she needed my help. Lets just say she wasn't particularly happy with the idea that I was using a product for infants to help her. (Especially because it was for infants. She really didn't like it because of that fact.) I did manage to find an easier to use walkie talkie with a simple button that you could push to ring me. She was ok with that. (I'm thinking she'd be pissed if I had a device that could keep complete track of her) Just saying, the psychology of it needs to be considered.

Re:Yes, but is mom going to be ok with it?

[Penguinshit]

I have ALS and requested the baby monitor system. I also use various IM clients on my optical tracking computer system to communicate with friends and family. The IM has saved my life more than once when the in-home monitor failed for whatever reason. I am on a ventilator so communication failures can turn lethal quickly.

The old days weren't that good

[mangu]

In the 20th century, which you remember so fondly, it was a woman's job to be a mother and housewife. It was she who stayed at home taking care of children and elders, while dad went to work.

Also, the gap between rich and poor was so wide that middle-class families earned enough to hire helpers from the lower classes. There was the cook, the housemaid(s), the gardener, to help take care of house and family.

Re:The old days weren't that good

[FuckingNickName]

It's been during the transitional phase that parents have had the chance to spend a decent amount of quality time with their kids. For traditionally the kids went from live-in nanny to boarding school. Today the parents must both work.

But I enjoyed that in-between where my mother could stay at home but not afford a live-in nanny. Though my grandmother did live with us, her role was more in house care. We also had a regular gardener and cleaner. I miss the gardener. He kept ducks and taught me about fish care. He had a son with learning difficulties and my family hired him too. And this is just enough backstory for a Radio 4 play.

Re:The old days weren't that good

[PopeRatzo]

In the 20th century, which you remember so fondly, it was a woman's job to be a mother and housewife.

Not always. My mom worked in a munitions plant during WWII and after the war had a career working full-time. But since I lived in an extended family, and my grandparents lived in the same big house (actually a 2-flat in Chicago) there was no need for day care. So "elder care" and "child care" are both taken care of just by having a family that stuck together.

Not far from the house I live in now, there's a condo building that's full of singles. Who's going to take care of these people when they get old, when their tattoos are faded and saggy and when their hipster goatees are gray and there's no more money for cosmetic surgery?

I wouldn't trade my experience growing up in a loving, extended family for anything. And it was made possible by labor unions, which the "family values" crowd seems to hate.

Da Mothafukkas

[oldhack]

just wouldn't get off ma ... Ug! MY BACK!!!!!!1!!

Technology can solve many problems

[Anonymous Coward]

There's even technology available to help your aging parent get exercise.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0108598/

Micro Jet Pack

[Simonetta]

Hey all you jet pack affectionados!

How about making a micro miniature jet pack about the size of 20 oz beer can! Grandma can wear it on her shoulders. When she falls down, she just reaches over, pops the mini jet pack off her shoulder strap, point it at the ground, press the button, and hold on tight!

WHooosh! Upsee daisy again! No calls, no worries, no lying on the floor for days in your own mess. Just a convenient reload after each fall.

So how about it, guys? Let's do something for grand-ma! And maybe she'll let you sample some of her medicinal marijuana. Sure leaves all that trash dorm weed in the dirt!

Re:Micro Jet Pack

[91degrees]

Oh, screw that. My gran's getting a full suit of mech-armour.

Re:Gee what happened to grandma living with her ki

[Anonymous Coward]

Went out the window when the kids were kicked out of the house at 18...

Expensive babysitting

[funkyjunkman]

Did anyone note the monthly price on these gimmicks? It seems to me that this is just another fancy set of toys to extract the last remaining dollars from the elderly.

Re:Gee what happened to grandma living with her ki

[Revenger75]

Won't somebody please think of the children?

I can only speak for myself:

[kheldan]

I'm glad that I have no plans to live so long as to be a burden on anyone. Personally, I would feel like I was being treated like a felon under house arrest, being made to wear such a thing.

High cost $8,000 install , $75 /M

[Joe The Dragon]

High cost $8,000 install , $75 /M.

Re:Lick my nuts

[Nikker]

You just caught your kids on one of those websites didn't you?

The creeping horror

[deadhammer]

"Okay, so grandma's in the bedroom, but why is her breathing and heart rate up so much? Her body temperature's too high, it's almost like there's a second reading there... And why's the accelerometer going off rhythmically once or twice a secoOHGOD!!!!!"

Also as lifespans increase

[Sycraft-fu]

This becomes more of a problem. If you are 60 years old, with some health problems of your own and still working for a few more years, do you really have time to look after your 85-90 year old parents? You can't very well be all day care, you still have to work, and you have commitments to your own health as well outside of that. Also the conditions of extremely advanced age can be much, much worse than younger, requiring nearly continuous attention of some kind.

The people who look back to the "family did everything" days forget that lifespans were much shorter. Generally you died of something else before your age got the better of you. So your family wasn't saddled with care for all that long. You health might deteriorate and necessitate care for awhile, but it wasn't the situation like you sometimes see now where someone lives for 5-10 years nearly completely unable to care for themselves.

There's also the simple issue of those that don't have kids. If we want population growth to stabilize you've got two choices:

1) Rigidly enforce a two child per family model, require everyone to have no more or less children.

2) Accept that some people will choose to have no children, just as some will choose to have many.

What does the 80 year old person, who's done their work and paid in their money but has no kids, do?

Re:Also as lifespans increase

[networkBoy]

we are currently taking care of grandma. Built a cottage for her. Now my wife's dad is moving in with us for an undetermined length of time.
While it is the right thing for us to do for our family, it is neither ideal or a walk in the park.
We are hoping to find a house very local (within a block or two) for dad, so he can have his own space (and we can have ours), yet still be close enough to provide care.
-nB

I'll just warn you

[Sycraft-fu]

You'd better be nice to your kids, and foster a good relationship. You might think such a thing in mandatory on their part but let me assure you it is not. When they turn 18 (and at any time after) they can sever any and all ties with you. You have no legal claim to force them to care for you. If they want to leave you to fend for yourself, they can.

I warn this, because I've known more than a couple students that have come through (I work at a university) who's parents seem to assume they should have to pay their own way, take care of themselves, etc, etc, yet still think the kid owes them. The attitude of such students is often as not "Fuck you." They don't have a particularly good relationship with their parents and being told to go out on their own makes it less so. Heck one of my coworkers (who is 40) says 3000 miles is about the right distance to be away from his parents.

So just something to consider. If you want your kids to be your caregivers, help them out, treat them well, make sure you give them whatever you can. That doesn't guarantee they'll help you, but it gives you a lot better chance. Either way though, I'd save some money and have a backup plan. Their option to tell you to get bent always exists.

Re:I'll just warn you

[SlideGuitar]

I was kidding about the firm warning... it's a joke we make, but a joke with a serious point. If our kids move out of state, we plan to follow (some day) and of course we do everything we can to make sure they'll want us, or choose to remain local.

Re:I'll just warn you

[Sycraft-fu]

Just making sure. Like I said, I've met more than a couple students who's parents had a sort of "You owe us for giving you life," attitude and the response is often "No I don't."

Personally I wish my parents lived near me, but that's not the way things are and not the way they are likely to be. Maybe some day.

Re:I'll just warn you

[Demolition]

You'd better be nice to your kids, and foster a good relationship. You might think such a thing in mandatory on their part but let me assure you it is not. When they turn 18 (and at any time after) they can sever any and all ties with you. You have no legal claim to force them to care for you. If they want to leave you to fend for yourself, they can.

Actually, many U.S. states and Canadian provinces do have laws that force children to provide support for their parents. Although, they are archaic and rarely enforced, they do exist. See this NY Times article for a list of 28 U.S. states that still have such laws and how they are applied.

Also, see this Vancouver Sun article for an ongoing Canadian court case that invokes such a law.

My grandpa

[Reginald2]

He died at a ripe old age, but after years of Alzheimer's which was most clearly evidenced as wild-assed paranoia. I somehow think strangers knowing where he was in his own house would have been a little much for him.

He was always convinced of secret conspiracies. I guess he was from that generation. I don't think I would have had the heart to make his nightmares come true. Hell, I'm reasonably rational and this would wig me out.

Re:My grandpa

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.theonion.com/video/in-the-know-is-the-government-spying-on-paranoid-s,14177/

Also a big difference

[Sycraft-fu]

Is what there is to look forward to. Kids, unless severely disabled, only get better. As they age they get more independent and generally pretty fast. Once they are in school, a large part of the day is taken care of. Get some good after school activities, and you can take care of the rest (and said activities are often very fun and educational). That sort of thing can be pretty cheap, since a few adults can run a large group of children. By the time they are getting to the pre-teenage years, they are usually fine leave alone for a couple hours, as needed. Then of course, they are only a few years from leaving home to go to university or get a job. Their independence increases.

Not with an elderly person. It only gets worse as time goes on. However bad they are now, they are going to be at least that bad if not worse in a few months, until they die. There's nothing to look forward to, they won't get better.

There's also the problem of cooperation. Kids are usually fairly cooperative, especially if you take some time to learn effective parenting techniques. You can require them to assist in their own care in various ways (cleaning their room, doing some chores, etc) and can generally get them to do that. Not the case with an elderly person with dementia. They will fight, sometimes physically, yell, etc and not listen. You have no recourse because their mind is just losing connection with reality.

That's hard to deal with, in particular in a situation like the parent talks about where you have to care for kids too. After all, is it fair to the children to say "You cannot have the attention you want because grandma is too busy being crazy and demanding continual care"?

Re:Also a big difference

[phantomlord]

Not with an elderly person. It only gets worse as time goes on. However bad they are now, they are going to be at least that bad if not worse in a few months, until they die. There's nothing to look forward to, they won't get better.

I take care of my disabled dad. He was 40 when it happened and he's 52 now.

Two words... Fuck you, if you think that's true in all, or even a majority of cases (the majority of disabled people, even disabled elderly, aren't in severe dementia). I could have thrown my dad in a nursing home to rot, but how could I do that to a 40 year old? You think his life's wants end there? He's gotten to, not only meet, but be a part of the lives of his grandchildren. In fact, he spent yesterday and today with his oldest (4 years old) one. If nothing else would, they alone make his life worth living and they absolutely adore him, wheelchair, the occasional grumpiness and all.

Hopefully, one day, he'll get to see me get married and have kids. Hopefully, he'll be able to see his daughter get married (hey, I'm posting on slashdot with a 5 digit id, the kids are obviously hers). Maybe he'll learn to walk again (yeah, 12 years in, he's still making progress). He looks forward to doing mundane shit that you and I hate like getting the mail or grilling himself a hotdog. He loves to go out and wax my truck with me or winning a game of solitaire. He's learning how to use a computer (something he absolutely detested prior to being injured). He has all the same things to look forward to that you or I do, and unlike both of us, he has a greater appreciation for every little thing he does have or gets to experience precisely because it was all taken away from him.

They will fight, sometimes physically, yell, etc and not listen.

This just in, there are a lot of stubborn ass people that aren't disabled that act the same way. Should we eliminate all of them from society at large too?

My dad has his moments, but who wouldn't, being 99% there mentally while one side of your body doesn't work so you can't easily do a lot of the things you want to (fwiw, hemiparesis is a bitch compared to lower body paralysis since you can still do almost everything with two functioning arms, but losing an arm and leg renders you unable to support that side to move). So he'll yell for a little while until he calms himself down and we move on like it never happened. Yeah, it's a pain in my ass, but that's life. If he wasn't yelling here at me, he'd be yelling somewhere else, with someone that didn't love him taking the abuse and maybe reflecting or even escalating it back at him.

After all, is it fair to the children to say "You cannot have the attention you want because grandma is too busy being crazy and demanding continual care"?

Sometimes, it IS fair and healthy. While it is important to give kids lots of attention, it is equally important to teach them independence, charity, patience and the real meaning of love. They may throw a temper tantrum because they have to wait 5 minutes while you take papa to the bathroom, but they do that when you have to change sissy's diaper too. Not only that, but a lot of times, papa has more patience to sit down with the kids, teaching them about all the mundane things in life that the parents don't have time for or telling them the family history that the parents always wanted to, but never actually will get around to. Maybe they learn to stop and smell the flowers instead of rushing off to a play date that they had to pencil in three weeks earlier.

I'm rather sad for you that you seem to have absolutely no reverence for elderly people... just remember, one day, you'll be old too. Hope for your sake that your heirs don't feel the same way that you do.

Re:Also a big difference

[Sycraft-fu]

Oh shut up. Seriously, I get real tired of people who have a loved one with problems and thus get touchy about every damn thing relating to that. Get a thicker skin, or stop reading message boards.

My point was not to throw the elderly out and let them die. My point was simply that care for them can be extremely difficult and stressful for many reasons. One of the reasons is that there's nothing to look forward to in terms of it getting better. That adds to stress.

As for my heirs, there will not be any. I am not going to have children. We have plenty of people as it is.

Re:Also a big difference

[Anonymous Coward]

and I get tired of sanctimonious pricks like you that talk shit and then tell people to shut up when you're called out on it.

The world is overpopulated? Off yourself already. It's not like you see any point in growing old, there's nothing to live for, especially if you're disabled.

Re:Also a big difference

[Anonymous Coward]

Two words... Fuck you, if you think that's true in all, or even a majority of cases (the majority of disabled people, even disabled elderly, aren't in severe dementia).

What an asshole. You openly admit you are not at all the case he is talking about, then somehow jump to the conclusion he must be talking about you.

Perhaps you are the one with the dementia here, if you can't remember a conversation from the beginning to the end of one sentence.

No one said all or most except You. Parent clearly said some. So that makes it YOU who is denying the fact that there exists people who do not have full mental control, which is of course a stupid argument that is not at all true.

Quit twisting peoples words and projecting your own haterid of life on others just to try and feel better about your own choices

Huge market

[Dzimas]

There's a huge market for non-intrusive devices that allow seniors to call for help when needed. It doesn't have to be fancy - a simple (and small) GSM phone that's configured to get help would be wonderful. However, the difficulty will be convincing people who have been extremely active throughout their lives that it's a good idea. My mother is a case in point. She's a very active senior who walked out to her car on very cold winter's evening and slipped on a sheet of ice on the sloping driveway. She hurt herself badly, couldn't get up and had no means to call for help. It took her the better part of half an hour to crawl into the front door where a neighbour spotted her and called an ambulance. A phone in her pocket could have saved the day, but she's from a generation who considers mobile phones optional - she only takes it with her when she's traveling and keeps it turned off to "preserve the battery."

Re:Huge market

[Dzimas]

Just did a bit of googling and found the Jitterbug phone, which offers "familiar" features like a dial tone and operator assisted calling along with 15 quick dial numbers. It seems to be only in the US, though.

Re:Huge market

[networkBoy]

It's also expensive as shit...
That said, it still may be worth it (and even a deactivated phone can call 911 on the US cell network).
-nB

Re:Huge market

[Cro Magnon]

However, the difficulty will be convincing people who have been extremely active throughout their lives that it's a good idea

Yeah, that's a problem. My mom has poo-pood any suggestion of any such thing, and it's true that she still gets around fine. But it's only natural that I'm concerned, considering how old the mother of a Cro Magnon must be.

Not everyone is practical

[Sycraft-fu]

People get things stuck in their heads like "I won't use a baby monitor because I'm not a baby," and won't budge on it, regardless of practical considerations. Goes double for people who's minds are going anyhow. It is a continual problem with regards to getting people to take medication for mental conditions. Their logic goes along the lines of "Only sick people take medicine, I don't want to be sick so I won't take any medicine." Then they slip back in to whatever their particular form of crazy is, of course.

Many people just lack the ability to be practical about some things. This gets even more problematic when it comes to things that deal with a loss of independence. That is something that many elderly people fear above all else. They do not want to feel like they are no longer independent. Doesn't matter how true it is, doesn't matter how manifestly clear it is, humans are great at denying things.

So I'm glad you are a practical person, who can and will use whatever technology you can get to make your life better, and to keep yourself safe. Unfortunately, not everyone is the same way.

Great idea

[Anonymous Coward]

I have ALS and I think it's a great idea, the number of times I

I

what was I talking about again?

Re:Gee what happened to grandma living with her ki

[DerekLyons]

That's a natural consequence of never living long in the same place, of treating friends as something disposable and trivially replaceable, etc... etc...

Mrs Fletcher?

[Macka]

Wasn't the original old lady called Mrs Fletcher?

I remember a system crash/panic message from back in the days of Ultrix (an early version of Unix from Digital Equipment Co. that ran on MIPS). It read: "Mrs Fletcher has fallen down again and can't get up". Some engineer's idea of a joke. DEC were forced to change it though as affected customers were not amused.

Just let them die

[thetoadwarrior]

Seriously, with the elderly population growing we're going to have less young workers than retired people. They'll be a huge drain on those who work and the elderly fear everything and can't use logic. Just let them die and balance the out the population.

Re:Just let them die

[Kittenman]

Maybe turn their residual protein into something useful too. And as food will be a worry in the future, if it's edible, all the better.

Name ideas ... well, environmentally friendly = Green. Soy milk is the healthy option, so we could use maybe the 'Soy' part. And this protein stuff that we're borrowing from the deceased... it's borrowed ... so it's been 'lent'.

Almost got it ... no, it's gone....

So now that we got falling down covered..

[GrBear]

So now that we got falling down covered, don't forget when granny or gramps soils their diaper. With this amazing technology you can receive a text message time for changies.

Many Dollars $$$

[hardware1949]

I can see the nursing homes getting their hands on this. Now they will have another reason to not look after their patients. The best part of all. They will be able to add another $100.00 per day to the nursing home daily billing. Not to worry, as I am sure there will be some enterprising young open source entrepreneur who will offer this to us old time nix babies. Oh poop! I can't remember if I took my memory pills or not.

Yeah but

[justinlee37]

Those elderly people have inheritances, savings, pensions, social security ... some of them have massive cash stacked up, dude.

If you get a job entertaining, feeding, or caring for the elderly, they will GIVE you some of that cash. They're going to make the demand for nursing and medicine in particular skyrocket.

Then you can take it and make some investments or start a business or something, thereby securing your own retirement and giving some younger folks employment.

Then you'll use your retirement to pay for entertainment, nursing, medicine, and so on when you're old, and the cycle will continue.

I know they're kind of difficult sometimes and they are a massive drain on social security, but I don't know if starting a "Logan's Run" situation is really a good answer to the problem.

What we should do instead is voluntarily work towards reducing the birth rate so that the world can return to having a sustainable population of humans. Everyone would be happier, healthier, and wealthier, if there were just less of us.

Already planned my exit

[argontechnologies]

I always like to plan ahead. They say that the more times you've been knocked out, the higher your odds of getting Alzheimer's. Therefore, since I've been tapped out a few times, as I age further I shall once again begin skydiving. It will be a self limiting design..... If I begin to succumb, it's only a matter of time before I forget something important.... Either the parachute, or what comes after two! Marco

Re:Lick my nuts

[Antidamage]

I'm sad that the article left out Quietus. Definitely the best aged-care option.

Yay! Yah! Yah!

[Anonymous Coward]

I can use my GPS to track them when dad and mum leave for heaven. Will they take the car or a taxi?

As someone in the industry...

[Anonymous Coward]

I work as a programmer in this industry and I see a troubling trend. More and more children set their aging parents with a VOIP phone service instead of POTS. Why does this matter? Most PHBs (personal help buttons) send a signal to a modem-like device which dials the response center sending relevant information using DTMF or FSK. POTS work even during a power outage. VOIP stops working if the internet connection goes down. VOIP buffers tones and regenerates them so timing is off between the response center's computer and the client's transmitter box.