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Philly Requiring Bloggers To Pay $300

Kurofuneparry writes "Pennsylvania generally and Philadelphia specifically have had a number of budget issues and some bloggers are seeing the results. From the article: '... yes, cash-strapped cities can't very well ignore potential sources of income. But at the same time, there must be some room for discretion and common sense.'"

456 comments

  1. Not all bloggers, just those that make money by odies · · Score: 5, Insightful

    So she says he runs a blog with ads and profits from, but is surprised that she actually needs to pay taxes and the other usual legistation while running a business? Yes, just like the Google, IGN or other huge sites on the internet that make money by advertising, he is also running a business.

    It also looks like she only made like $50 between several years. That comes down to like $1-2 a month. Why not just drop the ads and continue blogging? If you really need a few dollars, just find a few bottles from the street and return them to stores.

    1. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Lord+Byron+II · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The problem is that on her taxes, she was asked to list all sources of income. She was honest and listed the blog. Now, she's basically being punished for being honest.

      This is like the kid's lemonade stand that got shut down by the health department in Washington or Oregon earlier this month.

      There needs to be a little common-sense applied to the operation of governments.

    2. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by aliddell · · Score: 1

      It was California.

      --
      What do you think, sirs?
    3. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      She's not being punished for being honest, she's being expected to follow the same rules as everyone else. If you want to run a business, you need to have a license and pay taxes on your income. If your business doesn't make enough money to cover the license and taxes, don't run the business. If I were to open a store, and it was massively unsuccessful and only brought in a few dollars, would I suddenly be exempt from needing a license and paying taxes?

    4. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by DarkKnightRadick · · Score: 1

      No, this is ridiculous. I hope she fights this in court and doesn't capitulate.

      --
      "There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death." Proverbs 16:25 (NKJV)
    5. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Shakrai · · Score: 5, Insightful

      but is surprised that she actually needs to pay taxes and the other usual legistation while running a business?

      Taxes are assessed as a percentage of your income in most cases. In this instance the city wants to compel her to obtain a "business license" and pay $300 for the privilege, regardless of the fact that the "business" in question didn't even gross that much income. It seems absurd that one should have to get permission from the city before one can write a blog on their home computer.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    6. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uh, I think you're missing the part where she has to pay $300 for a business privilege license, despite only having made $50 from something that's hardly a business. That's like me selling something on eBay and having to pay $300 to sell a shrubbery for $50. Should she pay income tax? Sure. Business tax? Of course not.

    7. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by God'sDuck · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Some governments have common sense -- I'm about to shut down my NJ photography "business" because I make less annually than the minimum amount where a business ID is required. Below that, it's legally a "hobby that makes money." You still owe income tax on the profits, but don't need to handle any extra paperwork. Blogging really should be the same...

    8. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by tomhudson · · Score: 1

      So all she has to do is say that her server, where the "business" is actually located, is hosted outside the US and GTFO!

    9. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Volante3192 · · Score: 2, Informative
    10. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by odies · · Score: 1, Insightful

      It seems absurd that one should have to get permission from the city before one can write a blog on their home computer.

      No one is saying you can't run a blog, or that you would need to get a permission. You just need to get a business license if you're making money with it, just like any other business. Just don't put ads on it and no one is asking you that $300.

    11. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by DarkKnightRadick · · Score: 1

      running ads on a website does not make one a business.

      --
      "There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death." Proverbs 16:25 (NKJV)
    12. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by digitalunity · · Score: 5, Interesting

      It's not absurd, it's restraint on speech. To say that you need a business license to use your free speech rights if that earns you a dollar is just absurd. There is likely an income threshold where a business license isn't needed if you don't make enough money.

      She needs a lawyer. If the state laws in PA really are that fucked up and she needs a business license, she could take it to court and it will likely be found unconstitutional.

      If she does get the business license though, she can now write off all business expenses including the time she used to write in the blog. That includes a percentage of her home bills that are a needed as a part of the business.

      Her federal taxable income will go way down and she will be eligible for small business tax deductions and credits.

      --
      You can't legislate goodness. Let each to his own destiny, by will of his freely made choices.
    13. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Volante3192 · · Score: 1

      If I make $50 from a garage sale, should I have to get a business licence?

    14. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 3, Insightful

      There needs to be a little common-sense applied to the operation of governments.

      No, there need to be fewer and better thought out laws. A blanket $300 tax on any blog that makes money, for example, is not well thought out -- a better strategy would be a tax on blogs that turn more than, say, $1000/yr. in revenue, or perhaps a tax that cannot exceed the amount of money a blog made. Or perhaps not taxing blogs, and looking at other ways to reduce the budget gap (perhaps spending less on drug enforcement and other nonviolent crimes).

      Of course, there may be other things at work here. Like, lawmakers assuming that people fit into neat categories, and then passing laws that essentially enforce those categories.

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    15. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by rwv · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I seems absurd that one can operate a webpage that serves advertisements that don't generate enough review to afford basic cost-of-business fees.

      If I sold cupcakes from my kitchen, but only earned $50/year... I may not stop making cupcakes but I'd throw in the towel pretending that I'm operating a business.

      To bloggers who make a pittance serving ads on their blogs... TAKE THOSE ADS DOWN!

    16. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Shakrai · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You just need to get a business license if you're making money with it

      That's absurd. Business licenses should only exist to generate the revenue required to regulate businesses that can harm the public. As an example, restaurants require safety inspections to ensure that they are preparing their food in a safe manner. Those inspections cost money. Requiring them to obtain a license to offset the cost of these inspections makes sense.

      In this instance it's just silly. A blog can harm no one. It can't cause your street traffic to increase or your property values to go down as a brick and mortar business can. Government regulation is neither needed nor permissible in this case.

      She can pay income taxes on her blog ads without needing a business license. I'm sorry, but I just don't see a way you can defend the requirement that someone obtain an expensive license from the city before they can publish their thoughts on the world wide web.....

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    17. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why not? Because you say so? You're offering a service in exchange for money, sounds a lot like a business to me.

    18. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Keep your public outrage. It's not like we're talking about a small front-lawn lemonade stand. The kid made almost 2000$. At 50c each, that amounts to 4000+ sold drinks. Plus the stand was on a public fair (regularly if I understand it correctly). At that volume it is reasonable to start to apply professional rules.

    19. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Lord+Byron+II · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Have you ever sold a book on Amazon? Or a knick-knack on eBay? Or run a website with ads? Or held a garage sale? Or sold a couch on Craigslist?

      Those are all sources of income and you are required, by law, to report them. And if you did so in Philly, you would be required to buy a $300 business license.

      But most of us don't bother to report such small transactions, so yes, she is being punished for her honesty.

    20. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by blackraven14250 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's not absurd, it's restraint on speech. To say that you need a business license to use your free speech rights if that earns you a dollar is just absurd.

      It would be absurd - If this were actually a restraint on speech. If she dropped the ads (and thus the profits), she wouldn't have to get a business license, and would still have a blog with full free speech rights.

    21. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Kalidor · · Score: 3, Informative

      Sadly, this won't work if she's a citizen and not a greencard holder. The US is one of the countries that taxes income based on both citizenship AND residency.

      Doesn't matter if you are outside of the US, the IRS will ask for it's cut unless you are in a country that has a tax treaty with the US (and you fall within the terms of said treaty). Even then, most of the treaties require proof of payment with respect to the taxes due in the other country or the IRS still takes a cut.

      If you are in a country without a tax treaty, then you are out of luck as most countries tax based on residency, therefor you are double taxed by the country where the work is done, and the US.

      --

      Code softly but carry a big magnet.

    22. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      If she dropped the ads (and thus the revenue that doesn't even fully offset the cost of hosting)

      FTFY

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    23. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by rednip · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It also looks like she only made like $50 between several years

      Yea, once she's done writing off all of her 'business expenses', website expenses, home office, computer equipment, (maybe even) a second car, travel & entertainment, etc. Just because you don't make any money, it doesn't mean that you aren't running a business.

      Of course $300 sounds like a rather high price for a business license, particularly for an enterprise which might not take in more than $20,000/ year. Seems to me that Philly would be well advised to graduate it based on revenue and/or claimed expenses.

      --
      The force that blew the Big Bang continues to accelerate.
    24. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Zerth · · Score: 1

      She'll probably also have to prove she does the majority of her blogging elsewhere as well. On the plus side, she should see about claiming her computer and office space as a business expense.

    25. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by captainpanic · · Score: 2, Informative

      Why not simply have a certain limit under which you pay no tax?

      First 1000 euro/dollar: tax free
      Next 1000 euro/dollar: get licence of 300,--
      Above 2000 per year: start paying tax as well...

      That is just an example. I just mean to say that you'd need a progressive business tax that doesn't kill small initiatives before they make any real money.

      Governments should encourage little businesses and initiatives - they make the money go round... and are often maintained by people outside office hours, therefore increasing the average productivity of a country.

    26. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by VJ42 · · Score: 1

      Now, she's basically being punished for being honest.

      Indeed. Here in the UK her local tax office would probably tell her not to bother with a tax return* whilst technically she could be counted as self employed so would probably need to file one, it would end up costing more to collect the tax than they recovered.

      *Most people here don't need to fill in a tax return as tax is collected through PAYE

      --
      If I have nothing to hide, you have no reason to search me
    27. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Wonko+the+Sane · · Score: 1

      or that you would need to get a permission

      What do you think the word license means?

    28. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by iamwahoo2 · · Score: 4, Informative
      In the article, it explicitly states that she does not run a business, which would make blogging a hobby at which she makes a small amount of income. As long as she declares this as part of her personal income, then this is perfectly legal. The business privelige license is for businesses (according to the cities' own website), so it makes no sense that she would need to purchase this license, or pay taxes as if she were running a business.

      To make matters more difficult, if she were to attempt to declare this as a business, the IRS would expect her to demonstrate that she intends to turn this into a profitable endeavor, because running a home based business offers tremendous tax benefits and they try to crack down on the number of people who attempt to declare their hobby as a business.

      In summation, It looks like the some of the City of Philadelphia employees do not understand their own laws, or tax law, on a most basic and simplistic level.

    29. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Zerth · · Score: 1

      In my county, you need a license to hold a garage sale(it's $10). And if you hold more than 1/quarter, then you need to collect sales tax.

    30. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by stdarg · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Sounds more like the kid needs to be congratulated and helped. Rather than shut the girl's "business" down, why didn't the government do something like help her come up to code? It would have been a much better public relations maneuver.

    31. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by KindMind · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Taxes are one thing - I agree with you there. But the business license is based on where the business is. If the hosted content is outside the Philadelphia area, I don't see how they could enforce a business license. Like if I live in Philadelphia, but I own an auto parts business in Pittsburgh, Philadelphia can't charge me for a business license. I don't see how this is any different. On a side note, how does Philadelphia even know what she paid in taxes? That should be confidential information between her and the state and the IRS.

      --
      Politicians complicate life - logic is sacrificed on the altar of political expediency.
    32. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Google ads: Ads are non-intrusive & easily blocked by ad blockers. Cost to me to put them up: $0.00. Hey, $50 is $50!

    33. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So the little 6 year old girl who operates a lemonade stand out of a cardboard box on some hot summer day also needs to pay for a business license, taxes, et cetera? What kind of fucked-up country do we live in, anyway? How about the government follow its own advice to the citizenry, and LIVE WITHIN ITS MEANS instead of spending money it doesn't have?

    34. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Skraut · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Net Income != Profits. She probably didn't make enough to pay for her hosting. Perhaps we need to go back to the model where people get free hosting in exchange for a 3rd party putting ads on the site. Then Bloggers can blog without having to report the "income" of trying to cover some of their expenses.

      --
      Introducing Microsoft Vacuum 1.0 The first Microsoft product that doesn't suck.
    35. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by iamwahoo2 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You should only need a business license if you are a business. It is perfectly legal to declare this small amount of income as personal income and pay normal taxes on it. In fact, the IRS would prefer it that way and may not even allow you to declare this as a business if you tried. The cities employees causing this problem are clearly ignorant of the applicable laws.

    36. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Shakrai · · Score: 2, Informative

      On a side note, how does Philadelphia even know what she paid in taxes? That should be confidential information between her and the state and the IRS.

      It's not. States and the Federal Government report details from your income tax return to local authorities all the time. How else do you suppose they know when to hold the tax returns of deadbeat Dads or those that owe property taxes?

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    37. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Eponymous+Coward · · Score: 1

      This is offtopic, but you really don't want to start selling cupcakes from your kitchen (at least if you are in the USA). The rules and regulations are fairly rigorous because the potential for harm is so high. There are lots of great home based businesses to start - cooking or dealing with food in any form is not one of them.

    38. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by stephathome · · Score: 2, Insightful

      She's doing business in Philadelphia by doing the work of blogging there. No matter where she's hosted, her physical presence while working on her blog counts for something.

    39. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by cptdondo · · Score: 4, Informative

      The kid made the money *after* they tried to shut her down, and the local businesses stepped in and gave her tons and tons of free publicity. Until her lemonade stand hit the papers, she was just another kid making a few $ a day.

      RTFM - Les Schwab and a TV station stepped in and promoted her.

    40. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by tomhudson · · Score: 2, Insightful
      But as the parent poster pointed out, Philly can't tax assets that aren't located in it's jurisdiction. This isn't an "income" tax, it's a business license - and the "business" is hosted outside Philly's physical boundaries - all the transactions take place elsewhere. It's like you own a store in Alamo, Texas, and Philly wants to charge you a business license. There's no legal basis.

      Also, there's a First Amendment issue. This will definitely have a chilling effect on free speech.

    41. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by hedwards · · Score: 3, Informative

      Until, people start winding up at the hospital with food poisoning. The rules surrounding food distribution exist for a very good reason. If you've ever suffered the effects of food poisoning you'd understand why it's so serious.

    42. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by sglewis100 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Net Income != Profits.

      True, but not relevant. When I formed an LLC for my consulting side practice, nobody asked me if I had clients. Presumably, they could care less. Either way, I had to pay the cost of filing.

    43. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by cptdondo · · Score: 1

      Typically business licenses have a flat fee plus a percentage of gross. In my case it was 1.7% of gross, which doesn't sound like much, but when you are in an industry where the profit margin is 10-15% of gross, that business license takes about 10% of your profit. Add to that that every juristiction you work in wants their 1.7%, and all of the sudden you are losing a third of your profits to business licenses.

      Business licenses are enormously expensive for small businesses; we estimated that it took about 10 hours/week to keep up with all of the various licenses we had to have, at a cost of some $15/hr.

    44. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by hedwards · · Score: 1

      I briefly had a site with ads, and in my experience, Google does whatever it can to rape the site for revenue without shelling out. I recall the javascript they supplied at the time didn't work correctly, resulting in all the ads being for charities when viewed with the wrong browser. And not being given a satisfactory way of fixing it either. That was years ago, but I doubt it's gotten that much better as Google has even less competition now than they did back then.

      It wouldn't be shocking to me if her site isn't really turning much of a profit if any.

    45. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Shakrai · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I agree with you. The city doesn't have a leg to stand on here. They are just hoping that most people will pony up the fee without fighting them. Sadly they are probably right.....

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    46. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by DarkKnightRadick · · Score: 2, Funny

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business

      No, because Wikipedia says so :p

      The owners and operators of a business have as one of their main objectives the receipt or generation of a financial return in exchange for work and acceptance of risk.

      If her main objective was to generate income (which by virtue of making only $50 over two years it is clear it wasn't) then yes, she should get a business "privilege" license. If that was her main objective, she needs a course in business management as she was getting a crappy return on the investment of her time and other resources. If, on the other hand, it's only a money-making hobby (which she was hoping it could be, I imagine), than no. This is just more government thuggery.

      --
      "There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death." Proverbs 16:25 (NKJV)
    47. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by rwv · · Score: 1

      Google ads: Ads are non-intrusive & easily blocked by ad blockers. Cost to me to put them up: $0.00. Hey, $50 is $50!

      There's the rub! The government in PA is saying that the cost to establish yourself as an internet advertizing platform is $300! In this example, $50 income is a net loss of $250. If you want to blog anyway... at least in PA... you'd be best served taking down the ads.

      I'm not sure where the pulse of Slashdot will fall for this one... but I'd side with those in the government on this one that the business license is appropriate for bloggers in the state who have income as the result of their blogs.

      AdBlock or not... the internet doesn't need 20 million people earning $50/year through Google AdWords and similar advertising platforms.

      Though, I say this as somebody who happily publishes an ad-free blog. There's no need for my friends to AdBlock on my site!

    48. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      With your logic if I sit in PA and telecommute for a company in state where there is no tax, I can claim my consulting business is not in PA??

    49. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by BradMajors · · Score: 1

      Most cities allow 2 garage sales per year without a business license being required.

    50. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by aliddell · · Score: 1

      I had no idea there was another one. That's the sort of thing you don't expect to happen regularly.

      --
      What do you think, sirs?
    51. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by VJ42 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Keep your public outrage. It's not like we're talking about a small front-lawn lemonade stand. The kid made almost 2000$. At 50c each, that amounts to 4000+ sold drinks. Plus the stand was on a public fair (regularly if I understand it correctly). At that volume it is reasonable to start to apply professional rules.

      Get of that moral high-horse - you never sold your car second hand? Did you declare it? I know plenty of people who have sold their cars on second hand for ~£1500 - AFAIK not one has bothered to file a tax return at all (99% of people here don't have to, see my other post). So didn't declare it by default. HMRC knows this happens all the time, but it would cost them more to collect the small amount of tax due than they would get back, same thing in the case of this kids lemonade stand - $2000 is small fry - closing the tax loopholes for multi-millionaire company directors is a far more efficient way of collecting more tax.

      --
      If I have nothing to hide, you have no reason to search me
    52. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Hatta · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Freedom of the press is afforded only to those who can afford a press.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    53. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Yaa+101 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And the common sense is not to be honest to the government since they aren't honest to us to begin with, because most are chosen as a result of lies.

    54. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Skraut · · Score: 1

      She's put in a position where she's acting as a middleman between the advertisers and the hosting company, and losing money in the process. If the Advertisers would just cut out that middleman and deal directly with the hosting company there wouldn't be this problem. But you're right, she's dealing with money, and has to go through the paperwork because she was honest. I just hope Philadelphia gets their $300 filing fee, then sees an overall loss when next year she writes off her hosting, internet connection, computer, and portions of rent, utilities, lunch meetings, travel etc. If she blogs about it it's now business related...

      --
      Introducing Microsoft Vacuum 1.0 The first Microsoft product that doesn't suck.
    55. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Abstrackt · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Have you ever sold a book on Amazon? Or a knick-knack on eBay? Or run a website with ads? Or held a garage sale? Or sold a couch on Craigslist?

      You're also required to report barters on your income tax in both Canada and the US. This seems like a system that could probably be broken with over the top honesty. I wonder what would happen if someone reported swapping lunches with a coworker on a regular basis.

      --
      They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance. - Terry Pratchett
    56. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Private re-sale doesn't attract taxation - you don't pay taxes on your used car, but if you were buying and selling several cars per month, for profit, even if you could otherwise prove you were using them for personal transportation, you would definitely be expected to declare it.

    57. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      garage sales are not *sources* of income.
      It's a loss recovery on previously taxed dollars. Until your sale price exceeds the purchase price, there's no income.

    58. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by demonlapin · · Score: 1

      Yes, but in return you got an LLC, which can have certain tax and liability advantages. She's getting nothing in return. Hobby that makes money != business.

    59. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by sglewis100 · · Score: 1

      Yes, but in return you got an LLC, which can have certain tax and liability advantages. She's getting nothing in return. Hobby that makes money != business.

      Of course a money making venture is a business. Here's a Slashdot friendly car reference. If your hobby is restoring old cars, great. If you restore them so well that people want them, and you're suddenly selling them for more than you paid to acquire and fix them, whether or not you still consider it your hobby, that's a business.

    60. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by sglewis100 · · Score: 1

      I just hope Philadelphia gets their $300 filing fee, then sees an overall loss when next year she writes off her hosting, internet connection, computer, and portions of rent, utilities, lunch meetings, travel etc.

      Not sure about the portion of rent bit, since it's very difficult to write off a home office, but sure - if it's fair to have to pay a licensing fee, then it's fair to write off legitimate business expenses. If her overall due state taxes go down, who would cry about that? If she plays by the rules, she gets to use all the rules, not just the one that nets the city some cash. Does Philadelphia have a city tax, by the way? Doesn't really matter, since her deductions can count against state and federal taxes too.

    61. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by demonlapin · · Score: 1

      Well, if she was trying to write off business expenses, it would be a different story. There's no indication that she is.

    62. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by novium · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The issue with the lemonade stand, as I recall, was not tax issues but rather the lack of a temporary vendor's license from the health department. Which is quite reasonable if you have a booth at a farmer's market type-thing and serving a business-level number of customers. That's not a kid on a corner selling lemonade. That's an honest-to-god vendor, unless you think she was able to haul down all the stuff needed for a booth at those kind of things herself?

    63. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Issarlk · · Score: 2, Funny

      Of course not, she wouldn't pay tax: Since her shop employ child labor it would be shut down rapidly ; and she would be imprisoned for employing herself.

    64. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by iamwahoo2 · · Score: 1

      Because the IRS says so.

    65. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Ephemeriis · · Score: 0

      The problem is that on her taxes, she was asked to list all sources of income. She was honest and listed the blog. Now, she's basically being punished for being honest.

      I don't see how that's a punishment.

      You're supposed to pay taxes on your income. The taxes scale, more-or-less, on the income. It isn't like anyone is going to be asked to pay $1,000 in taxes on a blog that only made $50 in advertising.

      Pay the taxes and move on.

      It isn't a punishment any more than being taxed on the $50,000 you make and report yearly is.

      --
      "Work is the curse of the drinking classes." -Oscar Wilde
    66. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by sglewis100 · · Score: 1

      Considering you work in a profession which relies heavily on perfect grammar and sentence structure, I feel obliged to tell you that the phrase you're looking for is "I couldn't care less."

      I'm not sure I work in an industry that relies on PERFECT grammar. I am sure I spend a little less time proofreading a comment on a web site then... say... a business document. But yeah, if this were an english class and you were my teacher, I suppose you'd have a good point. PS: I believe they could care less. It's possible they care a little about the welfare of upstart businesses in their state, just not enough to waive registration fees.

    67. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      It also looks like she only made like $50 between several years. That comes down to like $1-2 a month. Why not just drop the ads and continue blogging? If you really need a few dollars, just find a few bottles from the street and return them to stores.

      Sure, that's what she should do once she pays the $300 they're demanding from her now for making that $50. Doesn't change the fact that it's idiotic -now-.

    68. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Hotawa+Hawk-eye · · Score: 1

      That behavior gets flagged as potentially being used to hide some sort of illegal activity and you get called down to the IRS office (in the US; not sure of the equivalent in Canada) and audited until you start bleeding from the eyes? Is said coworker going to be willing to testify, under penalty of perjury, that the two of you exchanged lunches on September 15th of last year? I don't know about you, but I'm not sure I could swear what I had for lunch last _week_ much less last _year_.

    69. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      Perhaps we need to go back to the model where people get free hosting in exchange for a 3rd party putting ads on the site.

      What do you mean 'go back to' this model? This is exactly the model that the big blog sites all use.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    70. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by easterberry · · Score: 1

      No, it's not. You put a means if income generation on your site, they treat you like an income generating business.

    71. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Crudely_Indecent · · Score: 1

      Yes, I've had food poisoning. Uh, lemon juice (citrus in general) is a useful treatment for food poisoning.

      My immediate steps to recovery are:
      1. Finish puking (this sometimes takes a while)
      2. Rehydrate with citrus drinks (I like variety, ocean spray makes a few good ones), and filtered water
      3. Rest
      4. Repeat as necessary

      For the first few hours I stay close to a liquid receptacle. Once the heaves stop, I begin to rehydrate and drink citrus.

      --


      "Lame" - Galaxar
    72. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      We have this in the UK, but it is per-person, not per-business. If you are a salaried employee and also do some freelancing work, then your tax bracket is calculated based on the sum of the income from both. It would be silly doing it per business, because I could quite easily have half a dozen businesses for the different kinds of freelance work that I do and end up in a lower tax bracket.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    73. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The government does not need good PR, they have legislation.

    74. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Garage sales/yard sales are generally one time events that don't have "continuing operations", and usually have special rules and licensing. Yes, if you have a garage sale, you generally have to register with your municipality and pay a fee (often a very small filing fee of not more than $5 or $10). This $300 is a one-time, lifelong fee for a business with continuing operations.

    75. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by IndustrialComplex · · Score: 1

      If you really need a few dollars, just find a few bottles from the street and return them to stores.

      1. Pennsylvania does not have a deposit system, so no returning bottles.

      2. Why would revenue from scrap collection be any less subject to collection/regulation.

      3. If you could earn the same amount of money doing exactly what you are doing now, or another way which adds several hours worth of labor, why the hell would you add the additional labor?

      --
      Out of modpoints but really liked a post? 1BDkF6TtmmeZ3yqXbz9yhdYVqRYnwFoXDj
    76. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by gizmonic · · Score: 1

      Sorry, that would require common sense, rendering it an impossible solution.

      --
      WWJD?
      JWRTFM!
    77. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by multipartmixed · · Score: 1

      What if you restore old cars for a hobby, have three parts cars, two with mufflers you don't want, and a guy offers you $50 for one.

      Should you:

      a) recycle it
      b) pay a $300 license to the city so you can sell it for $50, or
      c) Just give it to him

      Those are the options allowable by the city.

      Now, you might say, "But it's better for society if we give away our old stuff anyhow". However, then I would point out to you, that you can't do that legally, either. Because if he EVER gave you anything back -- even a beer -- it could be considered barter, which is a form of income, which requires a business license.

      Okay, so how about recycling?

      Not so fast, the scrap metal place will give you 5 or 10 bucks for it. That's income, too, so you need to pay for a business license.

      So, by defending the city's rules here, then, you believe that it is reasonable for a car-restoring hobbyist to either pay to give away his spare parts to fellow hobbyists, or be forced to save them all in his yard until they rot.

      Well, I guess you could send perfectly good stuff to the landfill. That's still legal, isn't it? Viva America!

      --

      Do daemons dream of electric sleep()?
    78. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by VJ42 · · Score: 1

      Private re-sale doesn't attract taxation - you don't pay taxes on your used car, but if you were buying and selling several cars per month, for profit, even if you could otherwise prove you were using them for personal transportation, you would definitely be expected to declare it.

      OK, I accept that the car analogy doesn't quite fit, but this is /. - what did you expect from a car analogy? Besides, if (unlike most cars) your had car appreciated in value then IIRC capital gains tax would technically be due on it (at least here in the UK). So everyone go buy a classic cars to make my analogy work!

      --
      If I have nothing to hide, you have no reason to search me
    79. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If I am an author of popular novels and take a trip around the US while writing my newest best seller, would I have to pay licensing fees, taxes and other city, state or county required fees for every place I actually wrote a word at? If I do work for a company based in CA, but sit at my desk coding in SC, do I pay a business tax to CA or SC? Do I need a business license for CA or SC or both or neither?

    80. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It isn't like anyone is going to be asked to pay $1,000 in taxes on a blog that only made $50 in advertising.

      No, she is being required to pay $300 (for a business license, which is a form of taxation) for making $50. (Or even on just $11 over 2 years, in the case of Sean Barry.) Since Marilyn Bess reported the income on her return, she obviously expected to pay taxes on her $50 of income, but $300 is unreasonable. Clearly the city shouldn't be enforcing these fees on someone making tiny amounts.

    81. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by IndustrialComplex · · Score: 1

      The rules and regulations are fairly rigorous because the potential for harm is so high. There are lots of great home based businesses to start - cooking or dealing with food in any form is not one of them.

      I'm not so convinced that the potential harm is 'so high' there is potential harm, but I think the real reason has much more to do with raising the barrier for entry 'so high' than preventing harm.

      --
      Out of modpoints but really liked a post? 1BDkF6TtmmeZ3yqXbz9yhdYVqRYnwFoXDj
    82. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      this is not an LLC, this is a state business license. My father ran a small print shop my whole life and complained every year that the cost of registering his corp with the feds went up. They did less and less each year and charged more and more, when he closed the doors one of the last things he did was send his $800 to the feds. Though he was nearly bankrupt and closing up shop at the end of the month the fee was due and in order to close out business legally he had to pay it.

      This is just a new more local version of the same corruption. She needs to fight this in court not just blog about it, change takes action folks and action is decidedly more then just words.

    83. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Zeek40 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yeah, the government helping a 7 year old run a lemonade stand is really a good use of taxpayer dollars when our economy is on the brink of collapse.

    84. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by canadian_right · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Being charged $300 for a business license for a "business" that only makes $10 a year is ridiculous. Blogs don't need health inspections, they don't need parking, or building inspectors, or any other government service that could possibly justify a business license.

      This is exactly the sort of government abuse that drives people into the black market.

      --
      Anarchists never rule
    85. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's funny how you want "fewer and better thought out laws" yet it is people like you that will bitch at "oh noes, 2000+ page bill passing through congress!"

      You either want simple laws or 2000+ page laws that account for all possibilities. SAme with the flat tax proponents - either a simple tax that taxes everyone (the poor and the mega rich) the same or something more fair but looking more complicated. You can't have "simple and thought out" at same time!

    86. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by operagost · · Score: 1

      I know plenty of people who have sold their cars on second hand for ~£1500 - AFAIK not one has bothered to file a tax return at all (99% of people here don't have to, see my other post).

      That's because almost invariably, the value of the car goes down. Cars are liabilities. You don't pay taxes unless it's worth more than you paid for it; then it's capital gains.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    87. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by VJ42 · · Score: 1

      The issue with the lemonade stand, as I recall, was not tax issues but rather the lack of a temporary vendor's license from the health department. Which is quite reasonable if you have a booth at a farmer's market type-thing and serving a business-level number of customers. That's not a kid on a corner selling lemonade. That's an honest-to-god vendor, unless you think she was able to haul down all the stuff needed for a booth at those kind of things herself?

      So, her parents gave her a lift in mums SUV, that still doesn't make her a "honest-to-god vendor" - she's a kid selling lemonade who happened to hit it big. The biggest problem I can see is that it might be mum and dad using her as a proxy; we've got a problem if they were hiding behind her to avoid all the paperwork - the article suggests that was not the case. Even if it was, the maximum that should have happened to her is an official should have told her mum and dad to the permit next time, no official threats should have been aimed at her.

      --
      If I have nothing to hide, you have no reason to search me
    88. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by mini+me · · Score: 1

      Well, I guess you could send perfectly good stuff to the landfill. That's still legal, isn't it?

      No, you would be fined $100 if caught.

    89. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by canadian_right · · Score: 2, Insightful

      RTFA

      She is being charged a flat $300 for a "privilege license", on top of any income tax. Being a flat fee that does not take into account how much, or little in this case, the business is making the fee is a punishment.

      --
      Anarchists never rule
    90. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by operagost · · Score: 1

      Like the article said, she will have to pay a minimum $300 tax on $50 of income.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    91. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Jarik+C-Bol · · Score: 2, Funny

      you know, 2 people who work together are bound to see this, and take it as a challenge, and start swapping lunches and bartering with each-other incessantly, and keeping detailed records, just so they get the opportunity to aggravate the hell out of the IRS.

      --
      I've decided to Diversify my Holdings. I've divided my cash between my left and right pockets, instead of all in one.
    92. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Abstrackt · · Score: 1

      You're probably right, but I don't see much difference between $50 of income from blogging and $50 of "income" from bartering. Neither should really be worth charging someone $300 over.

      --
      They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance. - Terry Pratchett
    93. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by mini+me · · Score: 1

      The fact that you are care about the topic enough to say that you couldn't care less demonstrates that you really could care less. Saying "I could care less" is at least being honest.

    94. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by MazTaim · · Score: 1

      PA doesn't do the container deposit refund...

    95. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Ephemeriis · · Score: 1

      RTFA

      She is being charged a flat $300 for a "privilege license", on top of any income tax. Being a flat fee that does not take into account how much, or little in this case, the business is making the fee is a punishment.

      It's a business license, basically.

      If you can't afford the business license, you shouldn't be doing business. If your blog is making that little money, pull the ads and call it done.

      --
      "Work is the curse of the drinking classes." -Oscar Wilde
    96. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by DarkKnightRadick · · Score: 1

      BS. Blogging is a hobby at best, especially when you make $50 off of it over TWO years from something that is tertiary to you blogging.

      --
      "There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death." Proverbs 16:25 (NKJV)
    97. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Ephemeriis · · Score: 1

      Like the article said, she will have to pay a minimum $300 tax on $50 of income.

      She isn't being taxed $300. It's basically a business license that she needs.

      If you don't make enough money from your business to cover the cost of the license, you ought to stop doing business.

      Pull the ads off your blog and call it done.

      --
      "Work is the curse of the drinking classes." -Oscar Wilde
    98. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by ultranova · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Business licenses should only exist to generate the revenue required to regulate businesses that can harm the public.

      But blogs can definitely harm the public; they might give them information they are not ready for, causing them to vote so the wrong lizard wins. Everyone here is always talking about how the "sheep" vote whoever will give them the most rather than whoever will give the writer most, and we wouldn't want that, right? A mean, mean blogger might say mean, mean things about her wise and benevolent overlords, and have them replaced by some populist who'll cater to the public rather than the local elite, and that would be communism.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    99. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Jarik+C-Bol · · Score: 1

      so what we need is the blanket granting of business license to all tax paying citizens, with the license fee ameterized over the duration of the taxpayers lifetime, thus allowing a small tax increase, and granting all citizens the right to HAVE A GORAM INCOME.

      --
      I've decided to Diversify my Holdings. I've divided my cash between my left and right pockets, instead of all in one.
    100. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by VJ42 · · Score: 1

      That's because almost invariably, the value of the car goes down. Cars are liabilities. You don't pay taxes unless it's worth more than you paid for it; then it's capital gains.

      See my related post. How many people are going to declare £1500 capital gains? Seriously it's only £1500 quid, no one in the UK would go through the hastle of filling in a tax return for £1500 quid (99% of UK tax payers don't need to fill tax returns in).

      EDIT:
      Seems I was even more wrong than I thought, here in the UK, your car is exempt from capital gains. Still, my point stands, people do all sorts of private deals for over £1500 without declaring it in this country - do you really think that brickie is paying tax for the cash in hand job? No one cares because it would cost far more to recover the tax than it would gain.

      --
      If I have nothing to hide, you have no reason to search me
    101. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Yes, you can. The word is "elegant".

      No one should ever have to pay a fee on a "business" that is more than the business makes.

      A 2,000 page bill isn't well thought out. Especially not when 90%+ of the people supposed to vote on it haven't read it.

    102. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by thechemic · · Score: 1

      No... being honest is never a problem. I run my own blog and a couple other websites. I started an LLC. During the 1st year, I made little or no money. ...pennies really. However, I still paid all my start-up costs and fees INCLUDING monies which were due to local, state, and federal governments. This person is NOT being punished because he/she was honest, they're paying the same fee's that anyone/everyone else pays to start a business. That's not punishment, that's fair. The "perceived" punishment comes from lack of research this person failed to complete in local, state, and federal laws prior to launching the small business. For tax purposes there is NO DIFFERENCE between a Sole proprietorship and a single member LLC (also referred to as a disregarded entity). Man up... pay your dues, or drop the profit and the ads.

      --
      Let's make like a bird... and get the flock outta here.
    103. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Jarik+C-Bol · · Score: 1

      a quick perusal of the googles leads me to this interesting point. Philly's business licenses cost 3x what business licenses seem to cost in general across the country. I've not found out if its a recurring annual fee, or if annual renewal is less, or its a one time fee yet, but it still is ridiculous.

      --
      I've decided to Diversify my Holdings. I've divided my cash between my left and right pockets, instead of all in one.
    104. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Mr.+Freeman · · Score: 1

      Also, this: "directed health inspectors to use "professional discretion" in enforcing food-safety laws intended for adults in commercial businesses."

      Food-safety laws aren't a matter of taxation or the government getting its share, it's about making sure that people wash their hands before selling food products. It doesn't matter if the law was written for adults, it should apply to everyone. E coli isn't any less severe because it came from a 6-year-old that doesn't understand that they need to wash their hands after "going potty" rather than an industrial manufacturer.

      --
      -1 disagree is not a modifier for a reason. -1 troll, flaimbait, redundant, overrated are NOT acceptable substitutes.
    105. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unless you are making a profit you don't owe taxes. If you buy a bike for $200 and sell it for $20 on craigs list or at a garage sale you don't owe any taxes on it. If you sell it for $500, you owe taxes on the $300 profit.

    106. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Wonko+the+Sane · · Score: 1

      If you can't afford the business license, you shouldn't be doing business.

      Only someone who has a vested interest in license fees, or in the barrier to competition they create would say something like that.

    107. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by kevinNCSU · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No, you only report capital gains. So unless you you're selling that book/couch/garage sale item/knick-knack on ebay for more than you bought it for it needn't be reported. This is also why you don't have to report selling a personal used car - there usually aren't any gains.

    108. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Jarik+C-Bol · · Score: 2, Informative

      I poked around a bit more, and found out that the 300$ fee is for a 'lifetime' business license, that would not require annual renewal. The city says that anyone not interested in the lifetime license can pay 50$ a year for an annual license. apparently, there is a bill going up in Philly to make it so that freelancers (like bloggers) won't have to pay taxes on the first 100k$, but will still need the license.

      --
      I've decided to Diversify my Holdings. I've divided my cash between my left and right pockets, instead of all in one.
    109. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by digitalunity · · Score: 1

      I'd like to point out too that more generically, this is what Geocities and a variety of other free web hosting services did 10 years ago.

      --
      You can't legislate goodness. Let each to his own destiny, by will of his freely made choices.
    110. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by canadian_right · · Score: 1

      Governments should not even be classifying a blog with ads as a business. It is an unethical money grab.

      --
      Anarchists never rule
    111. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      She's not being punished for being honest. She's being asked to pay for the license all businesses must possess.

      That's like saying that I am being punished for every cent that I pay in taxes because I didn't lie about the income. It's ridiculous.

    112. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Similarly, if we have a Solar panel on our home and we're actually a net contributor to the power grid, resulting in a monthly credit... wonder if we have to be getting a business license for this too?

    113. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Ephemeriis · · Score: 1

      If you can't afford the business license, you shouldn't be doing business.

      Only someone who has a vested interest in license fees, or in the barrier to competition they create would say something like that.

      I have neither.

      I'm just a regular employee. I have nothing to do with license fees, and I don't care what kind of barriers there are to competition.

      And I'm not making any sweeping judgment calls on whether this particular license fee makes sense, or whether license fees in general make sense.

      But if a license fee exists, and is necessary for the work you're trying to do, then you're going to wind up having to pay that fee. And if the fee costs more than what you're making, you might want to reconsider what you're doing.

      --
      "Work is the curse of the drinking classes." -Oscar Wilde
    114. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      She could turn the tables and do it by the book. Determine the net, likely a loss once hosting is included, and amend her returns to demand a tax refund on the business loss.

    115. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Ephemeriis · · Score: 1

      Governments should not even be classifying a blog with ads as a business. It is an unethical money grab.

      Why not?

      If I have a free paper that's ad-supported, is that not a business? If I make money putting up billboards, is that not a business? Why is an ad-supported blog not a business?

      --
      "Work is the curse of the drinking classes." -Oscar Wilde
    116. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      smoke pot - the nausea goes away almost immediately. Eating and drinking are then possible.
      trust me - i was badly sick for over a week & i thought that getting high would be one of the worse ideas possible. i took my friends advice and the relief was unbelievable.
      and no, of course, i didnt feel a need to stop smoking after that

    117. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Licencing your first ammendment rights, you say? And I thought licensing was just for second ammendment rights...

    118. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by SydShamino · · Score: 1

      In the U.S. you only have to report the income from the sale of a second-hand car if you made a profit on the car. Most people don't depreciate their vehicles, so the "value" of the car is the original purchase price. Rarely is a car sold for more than its original purchase price, so rarely is there profit.

      Now people who depreciate their car as an asset (usually independent business owners, sales people who travel a lot, etc.) and then sell it for more than their depreciated value do need to declare the excess as profit. That's part of the trade off for being able to deduct the year's depreciation as an annual business expense.

      --
      It doesn't hurt to be nice.
    119. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by tibit · · Score: 2, Informative

      Oh boy. The price you sell a used car for is not a capital gain! The capital gain, if any, would be if you'd buy the car for less than you sold it for. When you sell a used car, you typically are at a loss, even if you get a lot of money for it -- since you already gave up even more money when you got it.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    120. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by sjames · · Score: 1

      Imagine if any sale of anything whatsoever required you to pay $300 (fixed flat amount) for a business license AND the relevant income taxes. So, you sell your old Grill for $75, now you just owe a percentage of that $75 PLUS $300 for a business license.

    121. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by tibit · · Score: 1

      IOW, it's like SCO asking people to kindly pay the Linux licensing fees or else. Nice.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    122. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Did I really just see New Jersey held up as an example of 'common sense' in government?

      REALLY?

    123. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by easterberry · · Score: 1

      There are people who blog professionally and make their living off ad revenue. If you sell ad space on your site, you are, legally speaking, no different than someone renting out a billboard.

    124. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by sjames · · Score: 1

      Or just recognize that something you do as a hobby that just barely pays for itself (+/- a few percent) is not actually a business.

    125. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by smithmc · · Score: 1

      Did you read the parent post? It was suggesting that the appropriate government agencies could have helped the kid bring her operation up to code, i.e. preventing health problems. If done properly, this would have been a great way to encourage entrepreneurialism amongst our youth, which making people aware that there are still procedures to be followed, and how to go about it. Instead, the government looks like a bunch of fools that beat up on a little kid.

      --
      Downmodding is the refuge of the weak. Don't downmod, make a better argument!
    126. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or even better, just use the fucking exsisting laws that say you have to pay income tax on your income? Nah, lets just write some more fucking laws.

    127. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by tibit · · Score: 1

      Hey now, let's not mix the federal and local taxes here. In the U.S., localities have right to collect sales tax on everything you sell (with some exceptions). That's the only way selling a book on Amazon or a knick-knack on eBay can be taxed!

      If you sell something you own you typically generate no gains on it -- thus there's no income to be taxed. Thus nothing to report on your state or federal income tax forms.

      IANAL, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    128. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      The problem is that there are two different governments involved.

      She reported the income to the federal government. They're fine with her not having a business license, since they don't issue business licenses. She paid her taxes, so they're happy.

      Then the city government (completely independent from the federal government) demanded that she pay up.

      Which tax return do you want her to claim all those deductions on? I don't think Philadelphia even has a tax return that you could fill this out for, but if it does do they even allow home-use deductions/etc? If she claims this stuff on her federal taxes then the IRS would go after her for fraudulently claiming to run a business when it is just a hobby.

      And yes, it happens all the time in the USA that two different government bodies with jurisdiction over a business demand vehemently that it do two different things at the same time. Just ask all those people who got tax bills and nasty letters from two different states both demanding full payment of taxes due to a border dispute between the states. Sounds like something out of Kashmir...

    129. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by sjames · · Score: 2, Interesting

      And Philly wants to make sure that's as few people as possible. That COULD be viewed as a constructive violation of the 1st amendment.

    130. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by commodore64_love · · Score: 1, Informative

      >>>Until, people start winding up at the hospital with food poisoning.

      What part of "the government help the kid come up to code" did you not comprehend? There would have been no food poisoning then. Ya know, it amazes me how people like you wilingly bend-over and lick the boots of politicians, rather than admit the government is squashing us like ants. Why don't we all just live on plantations again, and call ourselves "serfs"?

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    131. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by tibit · · Score: 1

      LOL. What you're claiming is that if I'm trading stocks or being employed, I need a business license too? Because obviously I can make money from my wages, and from trading stocks. Heck, my retirement account is making me money, too.

      Income from ads should be taxed similar to rental property income. You don't typically need a business license in the U.S. to rent a room in your house/apartment -- you simply report rental income together with your wages, capital gains, and whatnot.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    132. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by tibit · · Score: 1

      Umm, obviously most of the citizens must be unaware of that. I see home bake sales used for fundraising for various charities and non-profits. I doubt they are licensed as food manufacturers ;)

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    133. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Abstrackt · · Score: 1

      I'll trade you my Canadian sandwich for your American sandwich! Then we can get the Canada Revenue Agency in on it too.

      --
      They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance. - Terry Pratchett
    134. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by lgw · · Score: 1

      I'd say it is. There's one and only one thing that brings back economies: small business owners start hiring again. We will likely stay in this recression until the government stops scaring small business owners into minimal-expenses mode (regulation changes and especially impending regulation changes are very worrying to small businesses), and starts either helping them out, or getting out of their way.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    135. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Zeek40 · · Score: 1

      I agree with you to some extent, but what the hell does any of that have to do with a the government wasting funds helping a 7 year old run a lemonade stand?

    136. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by jeff4747 · · Score: 1

      It can't cause your street traffic to increase

      "Hey everyone! I hear they're giving out free T-Shirts on the corner of [busy street] and [busy street].

      your property values to go down

      "If you're looking for crack or meth, the best place to get it is . They've got the cheapest stuff. Just hang around the area, asking around."

      The fact that you're not sufficiently creative doesn't mean blogs are harmless. After all, the anti-Islam hysteria surrounding the Community Center near the WTC site was started by a blog. It has reportedly resulted in real-world violence against Muslims.

    137. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by yurtinus · · Score: 1

      Oh get over this hypochondriac bs - it's a glass of lemonade and is vanishingly unlikely to cause health problems. If you are concerned, don't partake. We take on so much risk each day it's irritating when people get their panties in a wad over the benign stuff. Not everything in life needs to be governed by rules.

      --
      +1 Disagree
    138. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dude newspapers pay taxes. Free speech is does not imply immunity from taxes and fees. As long as a tax is not targeted to limit speech it is perfectly legal. I'm getting really tired of cheapskate people claiming tax exceptions based on crackpot constitutional theories.

    139. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've lived in PA for 37 years now. The state is that fucked up.

      Read paragraph 2

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_General_Assembly

    140. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by jeff4747 · · Score: 1

      Those are the options allowable by the city.

      Nope. You are allowed to sell personal property at a loss without a license. So as long as you paid more than $50 for the muffler to being with, you're fine. In this case, she's not selling personal property. She's selling advertising space.

    141. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by larry+bagina · · Score: 1

      She reported $50 in income to the IRS. Once license fees and "business" expenses are factored in, that would be a $250+ business loss and the IRS would classify it as a hobby.

      --
      Do you even lift?

      These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.

    142. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by lgw · · Score: 1

      Calling a tax a "license" doesn't make it right. There is no licensing here in the sense of "prove you've had the required training"; it's just a tax.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    143. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by jeff4747 · · Score: 1

      No, as long as you are selling personal property for a loss.

      (IANAA)

    144. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by rednip · · Score: 1

      If she (or her tax accountant) had a scrap of good common sense she would 'write-off' her expenses, at least to the 'break-even' point. Otherwise she'd just be giving the government money for which they didn't ask.

      --
      The force that blew the Big Bang continues to accelerate.
    145. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by ultranova · · Score: 1

      If the Advertisers would just cut out that middleman and deal directly with the hosting company there wouldn't be this problem.

      How could they? She is the one putting stuff up. She is the one designing the Web pages and producing their content. What are the advertisers supposed to do - inject advertising on her web pages without her approval?

      Of course this all assumes we're talking about a generic hosting company and not a Livejournal or whatever.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    146. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by smithmc · · Score: 1

      Encouraging an entrepreneurial spirit among our children may be the very thing that saves this country.

      --
      Downmodding is the refuge of the weak. Don't downmod, make a better argument!
    147. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by jeff4747 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      In the article, it explicitly states that she does not run a business

      And if it helped on their taxes, I'm sure Wal-Mart would explicitly state that they are not running a business. Retail stores are just their hobby.

      This is why there's rules about what is and isn't a business, and they have very little to do with the protestations of the person running the business/non-business.

    148. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by lgw · · Score: 1

      All small businesses start somewhere. On principle, a government should be trying to help small business, not taking an adversarial stance. In this specific case, can't we please give the child a great feeling about starting a business? We're not talking about government employees staffing the stand here, just being ordinarily helpful in explaining the required permits and how to get them.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    149. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by rwv · · Score: 1

      My state (Massachusetts) charges $500 in fees for setting up a business and $500 annually to handle the cost of processing the annual business report that you need to file with the state to continue existing as a business. I don't actually run a business, so I don't know the nitty-gritty details. $100-300 seems more responsible, but anything under $1-10k shouldn't really make a dent if you're running a successful business in the first place.

    150. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Zeek40 · · Score: 1

      While it does seem that the government is waiting for a seven year old to grow up and solve our country's problems, I disagree that waiting that long is the best approach.

    151. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by bhcompy · · Score: 1

      And this is what is wrong with America. People are too worried about litigation instead of having a good time. Food poisoning? Big deal. Drink some fluids, lose a few pounds. Unlikely that you'll die from it unless you're an idiot

    152. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      "bend-over and lick the boots of politicians"

      Not only is that harsh, but it's inaccurate. There is no need to bend over to lick those boots, when you are groveling on the ground at the master's feet. ;^)

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    153. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by jeff4747 · · Score: 1

      Business licences were created due to massive fraud. They were created to tie a person to the transactions of a business so that they could be tracked down if necessary.

      The other things you mentioned were created due to massive safety problems.

    154. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, if she has a business license from the city, then she can claim to be a business, which can have certain tax advantages (no liability advantages). She is getting something in return. Granted, after two or three years, the IRS is going to call shenanigans on the whole deal, but she'll get at least two or three years of being able to write off lots of things.

    155. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Irs.gov says differently about garage sales.

      Income resulting from auctions akin to an occasional garage or yard sale is generally not required to be reported. However, there may be exceptions. If an online garage sale turns into a business with recurring sales and purchasing of items for resale, it may be considered an online auction business.

      http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=174478,00.html
      http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/industries/article/0,,id=209314,00.html

    156. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by retchdog · · Score: 1

      Yeah, maybe citrus juice is helpful, although that link is far from convincing. Probably any sort of sugar water would do just as much good (which Ocean Spray products mostly are).

      That is, as long as it's not contaminated by some young child's bacteria.

      I think it's kind of silly to regulate at this level, but I am also not as afraid of contamination as some.

      --
      "They were pure niggers." – Noam Chomsky
    157. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      Speech isn't free or without consequences, but we still don't allow the Government to regulate it.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    158. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by BrokenHalo · · Score: 1

      It's unlikely that any home-made lemonade (assuming it's actually made out of lemons) will cause any kind of food poisoning. The pH is too low to permit the growth of the majority of toxic bacteria.

    159. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by BlueStrat · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yeah, the government helping a 7 year old run a lemonade stand is really a good use of taxpayer dollars when our economy is on the brink of collapse.

      Whatever gave anyone the impression the government (either/both parties) could even successfully run a lemonade stand, and particularly without their presence as a partner giving it advantages over non-government "assisted" lemonade stands, thus shrinking the number/size of the non-"assisted" competition and thus consumer market choice?

      Larger governments mean more senseless bureaucratic/legal/regulatory/etc enforcement stupidities, mistakes, and plain incompetence because people tend to do what gets them the least for the most, including (especially?) career government bureaucrats. The actual ramifications of their decisions typically occur far away, often involving people and local conditions & facts they have no clue about or even be hostile towards, but it's in their better interest to fill in the "correct" check-boxes and provide the "expected" answers on the government-mandated forms and not rock the boat until retirement.

      This is just one of the effects that have most often resulted when human nature and large bureaucracies with size & power mix, and would seem historically to correlate more closely with a government's size to an even greater degree than what ideological basis and/or type of government structure it operates from. It seems that the larger government of any type becomes, the more numerous and serious "system errors" become as each layer of complexity and reach adds more and more less-than-idealistic, human-nature "noise" into the system, until it "crashes" (economic/social/political collapse).

      Strat

      --
      Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
    160. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Idiocy like this is the best advertisement I can think of to avoid the People's Republic of Pennsylvania, and Philadelphia in particular.

      I can PROUDLY say, in my 40+ years of life, that I have NEVER set foot in Pennsylvania, and I see no reason for that to change.....EVER.

    161. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Crudely_Indecent · · Score: 1

      How's .

      Sugar water is not as good as you might think.

      Sports drinks such as Gatorade and Powerade are fine for adults if they are diluted with water because at full strength they contain too much sugar, which can worsen diarrhea.

      Sugar water is the last thing you want. Citric acid is helpful against bacterial food poisoning. Viral food poisoning....well....your body has to work that one out - the best you can do is stay hydrated.

      --


      "Lame" - Galaxar
    162. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      just so they get the opportunity to aggravate the hell out of the IRS.

      My money's on the tax man. Any takers? :-)

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    163. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by jeff4747 · · Score: 1

      but we still don't allow the Government to regulate it.

      Sure we do. Commercial speech is regulated, which is why the snake oil business doesn't exist anymore.

    164. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by BlueStrat · · Score: 1

      ...what gets them the most for the least

      FTFMe! :P

      --
      Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
    165. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you are a landlord in Philly, you need a BPL (one-time registration). You also need an annual license for each unit. You would pay taxes on the rental income under NPT and GRT (net profits and gross receipts taxes).

      The whole tax system in the city is broken, and everyone knows it.. but it's a case of no one being able to agree on a solution.

    166. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      Tell that to the IRS

    167. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by orgelspieler · · Score: 1

      To say that you need a business license to use your free speech rights if that earns you a dollar is just absurd.

      Why is that absurd? In many jurisdictions, you have to pay a fee to use your right to bear arms. If you want to protest in the streets, your city might ask you to pay a fee to exercise your right to peaceably assemble. If you contest a ticket, you have to pay a fee to use your right to a jury trial. You have to pay liquor taxes despite the repeal of prohibition. I guess the only amendment that guarantees a right without a tax is XXIV (no poll tax). So what is so absurd about this? Hell, if we had a stout tax on inventing a religion, maybe L. Ron wouldn't have bothered starting up his cult.

    168. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by demonlapin · · Score: 1

      She might not itemize deductions. I had numerous years in which itemizing would have been less than the standard deduction.

    169. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by demonlapin · · Score: 1

      Until the IRS goes back and retroactively declares it a hobby and assesses penalties and interest on the whole amount.

    170. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by smithmc · · Score: 1

      Which is just symptomatic of the virtual disappearance of long-term thought and planning in our society.

      --
      Downmodding is the refuge of the weak. Don't downmod, make a better argument!
    171. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by tuxgeek · · Score: 1

      I've had food poisoning several times, once from hot dogs from the grocery store, and once from Taco Bell

      Lemonade is an acid and NOT supportative to the growth of salmonella
      It will however attract cockroaches, but those are a bit larger and you will know before you consume them.

      --
      "Suppose you were an idiot...and suppose you were a member of Congress...but I repeat myself." Mark Twain
    172. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Which tax return do you want her to claim all those deductions on?

      Both. She should declare it as a business, and take a big loss on her Federal taxes. Remember, with this route, she can take a big-ass deduction for the use of her "home office", plus take a loss overall.

      When the IRS complains, she can tell them to take it up with the City of Philadelphia, because she's required to have a business license by them, and if she has a business license, then it's obviously a business and not a hobby, regardless of whether she's making a profit.

      It'd definitely make an interesting national news story when she has to deal with lots of lawsuits with both the IRS and the City, all because of a $300 license. Your government at work. No wonder our nation is swirling the drain.

    173. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If your local municipality requires you to get a permit to have your sale, then it is covered as part of that exchange. (In some cases)

    174. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      But whose rules are you going to abide by? The IRS's rules, or the City of Philadelphia's rules? If one government tells you you have a business, and another level of government says it's a hobby, who do you believe?

      And how do you get the two to fight it out with each other?

    175. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Nephilium · · Score: 1

      Then you aren't cynical enough yet...

    176. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by farble1670 · · Score: 1

      Now, she's basically being punished for being honest.

      maybe when a 5-year old does something wrong and owns up to it, you take it a little easier on them because they made the right choice owning up to the crime. we shouldn't expect that to happen when we are adults. she's not being punished, she's getting treated according to the law.

      it's not really that it's a problem to make exceptions here and there, it's the overhead on doing so. she was tagged by some software check. i don't want to pay the taxes to employ real live humans to audit this type of thing.

      This is like the kid's lemonade stand that got shut down by the health department in Washington or Oregon earlier this month.

      and if someone got salmonella from that lemonade stand, those depts would be taking a ton of flack for it. there is a reason why people go through training and licensing before they can serve food.

    177. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Princeofcups · · Score: 1

      No, there need to be fewer and better thought out laws. A blanket $300 tax on any blog that makes money, for example, is not well thought out

      Without break points and step functions, there would be no jobs for tax accountants.

      --
      The only thing worse than a Democrat is a Republican.
    178. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by SolemnDwarf · · Score: 1

      I concur. As such, all beggars on the street corners should be forced to pay for a business license as well.

    179. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by farble1670 · · Score: 1

      Get of that moral high-horse - you never sold your car second hand? Did you declare it?

      FWIW, in the US, anyone that sells a car needs to write the price paid on the title transfer. if that's done, the buyer has to pay the taxes on the sale.

      of course, people just write down a cost that's less than the actual sale price, lowering the taxes.

    180. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by farble1670 · · Score: 1

      It seems absurd that one should have to get permission from the city before one can write a blog on their home computer.

      it's not about blogging, it's about blogging for profit, which she was ... even though she made very little money.

    181. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Yakasha · · Score: 1

      The problem is that on her taxes, she was asked to list all sources of income. She was honest and listed the blog. Now, she's basically being punished for being honest.

      She is being punished for being ignorant. Odds are she reported income for blogging, but none of the expenses. All she has to do is maintain a negative cash flow for a couple years and she can claim, legally, it is a hobby, not a business.

    182. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by rjstanford · · Score: 1

      That's a great idea. Seriously - I'd be all in favor of it. Except.... where does that budget come from? Its a serious question - and one that, personally, I'd like to see fixed - but its not as if most governments can afford that kind of hand-holding cost (at our great misfortune).

      --
      You're special forces then? That's great! I just love your olympics!
    183. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by farble1670 · · Score: 1

      the $300 is not a tax, it's a license fee.

    184. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by rjstanford · · Score: 1

      Good theory, but the trouble is when the next-door-down-cart (a more professional operation) makes the legally defensible point that you can't have selective enforcement, and that if you let ___ small businesses (lemonade stands) with sales in the low-thousands of products go without inspection, then you have to let their sales also go without inspection. That way lies madness.

      Making the health inspections simple and reasonable? Sure.

      --
      You're special forces then? That's great! I just love your olympics!
    185. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      which is why the snake oil business doesn't exist anymore.

      No, it's just called something else....

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    186. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    187. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by multipartmixed · · Score: 1

      > she's not selling personal property.
      > She's selling advertising space.

      Is there a definition of what the city considers property?

      What if a guy comes over and I fix his muffler for him, and charge him enough money to cover the cost of my welding sticks?

      --

      Do daemons dream of electric sleep()?
    188. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by jeff4747 · · Score: 1

      If one government tells you you have a business, and another level of government says it's a hobby, who do you believe?

      Both.

      When you're filing your Federal taxes, then you follow the IRS's rules. When you are dealing with the City of Philadelphia, you follow their rules.

      This happens all the time in any sufficiently-large bureaucracy, public or private.

    189. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by jeff4747 · · Score: 1

      Then you're fine. You're selling your personal property (welding sticks) without making a profit.

    190. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This has never made any sense to me. I buy a couch for $600, use it for 5 years and sell it to someone on Craigslist for $50. I just took a $550 loss. Why is that couch sale income?? There's no profit.

      Then again, I am not an accountant...

    191. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      A blanket $300 tax on any blog that makes money, for example, is not well thought out -- a better strategy would be a tax on blogs that turn more than, say, $1000/yr. in revenue, or perhaps a tax that cannot exceed the amount of money a blog made.

      Sounds good! And since I self-host my blog on my home Internet connection, of course I'll be allowed to claim the cost of my Internet access, pro-rated electricity bill for the server, pro-rated amount of square footage of my house that it occupies, and hardware depreciation, right? I mean, if it's a business then treat it like a business. I pay a lot more to host my blog than I'll ever make from it, so I could get behind that.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    192. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by mazarin5 · · Score: 1

      I would have written a shorter letter, but I did not have the time.

      This certainly applies to code and, I'm sure, law as well.

      --
      Fnord.
    193. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by yurtinus · · Score: 1

      I give up. Bring on the laws! I'll go grab my one-time license from the county for my next family bbq.

      --
      +1 Disagree
    194. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by tibman · · Score: 1

      Yeah, i agree. A 300$ tax is not a tax, it's a fee. A tax is a percentage of worth, right?

      --
      http://soylentnews.org/~tibman
    195. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uh no, the better strategy would be to not specifically target "blogs" and understand that technically it is a website. There's no reason to single out "blogs" from other types of websites that can earn a revenue.

    196. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by bware · · Score: 1

      That's exactly how it works. You claim the home office deduction on your 1040 exactly as you describe (or report income from a home business), and the city will ask you for a business license. You get the tax deduction and have to cough up $300. Authors and consultants have been doing exactly this since the tax code was instituted. There's a whole series of IRS forms for this.

      The real story here is that the blogger doesn't have a decent accountant. Boring.

      Or you could write a nice letter to the city explaining that you don't have clients come to your home office and your income was less than the business license, and they'll likely give you a waiver. Win win.

      (sorry, couldn't RTFA as the link wasn't responding, so don't know if this was covered)

    197. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you really need a few dollars, just find a few bottles from the street and return them to stores.

      Whoa! Are you suggesting tax evasion by not reporting the income received from those bottle deposits? Where is your sense of civic duty!?

    198. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Sorry, I think that's BS. You either do or don't have a business. You can't have it both ways. If the two levels of bureaucracy can't agree, then let them argue about it.

    199. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by mhajicek · · Score: 1

      Hah! You said "common sense" and "government" in the same sentence! LOL!

    200. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by History's+Coming+To · · Score: 1

      This. Has. Nothing. To. Do. With. Blogging.

      It's got nothing to do with free speech, the fact that it's a blog is irrelevant. It could be a multi-million dollar social networking site, or the world's worst porn site, or a domain squatting site, or anything else. She's not being charged because she's got a blog, she's being charged because she's earning money from it, however little.

      Me, I've got a couple of blogs with Google Ads on them, so far I've made the princely sum of £0.74, or around one US dollar. If I ever hit the magical £10 target I'll get a cheque from Google and I'll be liable to pay tax on it. What I say on those blogs is utterly irrelevant, I'm earning money and therefore must pay taxes according to (in my case) UK law.

      Whether this is right is an entirely different matter, charging $300 simply to pay tax on a tiny income is nonsensical in my book, but please don't pretend this is some great moral outrage, it's just government being inefficient as usual.

      --
      Please consider this account deleted, I just can't be bothered with the spam anymore.
    201. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by stephathome · · Score: 1

      I don't know how it varies by state, but where I am you have to be doing business a certain number of days in a particular location to count as a business that needs registration. They're not likely to notice a traveler anyhow, same reason as so many home businesses can get away without licensing.

      Licensing is usually by where you're physically doing the work, so I would expect you'd just need the SC license if they require one. I don't know for certain.

      I have heard that some states try to take income tax if you earn money working for businesses in them, even when you live elsewhere. Don't know much more about it than that but it strikes me as riduiulous, as the state you reside in also wants its share of tax. But for licensing I haven't heard of any cross-state requirements. IANAL, so others no doubt know more.

    202. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by fropenn · · Score: 1

      A large number of cities will give you an exemption for (limited) garage sales. My hometown allows you 2 days of sales before they require you apply for a business license.

      Couldn't something similar be done for blogging? Bloggers only pay the requisite fees when their income goes over 'X'?

    203. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by DannyO152 · · Score: 1

      What? You think newspapers don't pay business taxes?

    204. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      After all, the anti-Islam hysteria surrounding the Community Center near the WTC site was started by a blog. It has reportedly resulted in real-world violence against Muslims.

      Reported where? I have been following this story and this is the first claim I have seen to that affect.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    205. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by fishbowl · · Score: 1

      >it's very difficult to write off a home office

      It's not. I've done it every year since 1996.

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
    206. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Tell that to the IRS

      They already know.

    207. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by sglewis100 · · Score: 1

      It's not. I've done it every year since 1996.

      That may be, but it remains difficult. Many people think they can, and find out they can't. Or erroneously deduct it and by virtue of not getting audited don't find out either way. But the rules are very strict, and not nearly as many people are entitled to claim the deduction as think they do. Perhaps you're a full time consultant, working out of your house often, with an office used for nothing but business. I don't know, it doesn't really matter, since whether or not you qualify wouldn't impact whether or not it's difficult for most taxpayers to qualify or not.

    208. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by dacut · · Score: 1

      Private re-sale doesn't attract taxation - you don't pay taxes on your used car[...]

      Not necessarily true. Quite often you have to pay sales and title transfer taxes. Evading these can make it difficult to get the registration renewed.

    209. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by jeff4747 · · Score: 1

      So....your plan is to have one or the other bureaucracy arrest you while they fight over it?

      Or your plan is to get fired for not complying with the rules of your employer's bureaucracy because it's in conflict with another part.

      Great plan. I'm sure everyone will support your fight for consistency!

    210. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      The only reason it doesn't attract taxation is that the government can't efficiently track it yet.

      Our traffic and tax laws were passed when it wasn't possible to enforce 100% compliance.

      If you sell your car, you owe a small amount of taxes. If you buy products out of state, you owe a "use" tax instead of a sales tax in most states.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    211. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by digitalunity · · Score: 1

      The absurdity of it is that she made $50 and they're calling that a business. It's no less worse than officials in Oregon shutting down a little kids lemonade stand for not complying with health regulations.

      It is a moral outrage because governments cannot simply decide that by virtue of being the government they are entitled to money even when they provide no service. Taxes are justified as socially acceptable and beneficial because the government provides a wealth of services for that money. This on the other hand is simple robbery and telling someone they can't earn $50 in 5 years without it being a business is ridiculous.

      I make more than that selling shit in garage sales, but nobody is forcing me to get a business license as a retailer.

      --
      You can't legislate goodness. Let each to his own destiny, by will of his freely made choices.
    212. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by jeff4747 · · Score: 1

      Most of them are not reported by the national media, and usually are only covered by the local media.

      Since I'm at work, I'm not gonna help you use Google. Here's one from a few months ago:
      http://jacksonville.com/news/crime/2010-05-20/story/reward-upped-20000-mosque-attack

      Admittedly, it predates the current BS, but it's and example I could find in a single search. There's a ton of threats out there, with a few bombings and other attacks thrown in.

    213. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by dacut · · Score: 1

      But as the parent poster pointed out, Philly can't tax assets that aren't located in it's jurisdiction.

      Ah, most tax collectors in this situation would just argue that creating the content in Philly gives the city jurisdiction.

      And this is peanuts. Illinois takes the trophy for overly broad interpretations of jurisdiction and nexus; take a look at this letter of ruling (PDF) for example of this abuse. In this case:

      • This is a New York company running a vehicle database for insurance companies.
      • This company does not have an office, data center, or any other physical property in Illinois.
      • This company does not have any employees in Illinois.
      • No employee of the company sets foot in Illinois for anything work related.
      • Independent dealers and inspectors who do own shops in Illinois forward the results of their inspections to the company in New York.

      The ruling? The company is liable for Illinois income tax. (And probably New York, as well, but the letter does not identify the company.)

    214. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by dacut · · Score: 1

      Net Income != Profits

      While technically true (due to accounting rules), you probably meant: "Gross Income != Profits."

    215. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 1

      > The issue with the lemonade stand, as I recall, was not tax issues but rather the lack of a temporary vendor's license from the health department.

      Children under 13 years can NOT legally enter into contracts, so the health department suit is without merit.

    216. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Zironic · · Score: 1

      "Children under 13 years can NOT legally enter into contracts, so the health department suit is without merit."

      You still need a license even if you're too young to enter contracts.

    217. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Bryansix · · Score: 1

      Yes it IS relevant. You filed an LLC which is a form of corporation which is tracked nationally in a database and limits your liability. She is a Sole Proprietorship (which is default and if you do business under your own name). She should not have to pay anything since she didn't file for anything. You can legally do business under your own name without a filling. You can also be a Sole Proprietorship with a DBA or Ficticious Business Name. Neither suddenly means you need a Business License. Those are generally revenue generating rackets on the behalf of local cities which give you nothing. You wouldn't need one unless you had an address within the city that you did Business at. This doesn't mean your home if you happen to do work there. However if you put up a sign and invited retail clients to your home then you would need a Business License. It would still be a rip off and the locality would give you nothing in exchange except a pretty peice of paper that you have to display.

    218. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Bryansix · · Score: 1

      Licencing your first ammendment rights, you say? And I thought licensing was just for second ammendment rights...

      Haha, good point!

    219. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Bryansix · · Score: 1

      Nobody said she was trying to get out of paying taxes. In fact she did pay taxes. But there should be no fee since she doesn't have a physical location she operates out of.

    220. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hmmm,

      Why not relocate to past the Philadelphia border where they don't tax bloggers? She could move to Delaware! It's nicer, and the taxes are lower (because like 5 people live in the state and they make the most of the tolls in the thin stretch of I-95 between Maryland and Pennsylvania). Philadelphia is a jobless wasteland. Outside of Center City, University City, and South Street, it looks more like the movie ESCAPE FROM NEW YORK.

      However you guys are right, she's a business and like all other businesses SHE SHOULD BE PAYING HER TAXES. Just as soon as Philadelphia entices more businesses to return, they should be paying their taxes too! :)

    221. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Beezlebub33 · · Score: 1

      I'm entirely unclear what the difference is. I want to do something and have to pay the government $ to do so. Is that a fee or a tax?

      I work in Arlington County, Virginia. The tax / license amounts are here. They call it a "BUSINESS LICENSE TAX" so now I'm really confused. Fortunately, it's $0 for a business less than $10,000 / year, which makes sense to me, and gets graduated over time for more amounts.

      --
      The more people I meet, the better I like my dog.
    222. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      It'd definitely make an interesting national news story when she has to deal with lots of lawsuits with both the IRS and the City, all because of a $300 license.

      Yes, it would. It would also make for a very undesirable legal bill.

      Do you really think the IRS cares what the City of Philadelphia thinks? That's as crazy as thinking that the City of Philadelphia cares what the IRS thinks...

    223. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by JesseMcDonald · · Score: 1

      In many jurisdictions, you have to pay a fee to use your right to bear arms.... If you contest a ticket, you have to pay a fee to use your right to a jury trial. You have to pay liquor taxes despite the repeal of prohibition.

      These examples are equally absurd. The first case is a plain violation of the 2nd Amendment. Trials, jury or otherwise, should be free to the winner; if you contest and win, the one making false accusations should bear the full cost. Anything less is a grave injustice.

      "Repeal of prohibition" is not a (constitutional) right in the first place, any more than the lack of prohibition on just about everything else. I find the concept of "legitimate" taxes in general absurd, and special "sin taxes" doubly so, but since there is no constitutional "right to liquor" these taxes have no bearing on the current subject.

      If you want to protest in the streets, your city might ask you to pay a fee to exercise your right to peaceably assemble.

      That's rent for use of "their" roads, not a fee for exercising your right of assembly. You can assemble without fees on private property (with the owner's permission, of course).

      So what is so absurd about this?

      What's absurd about it is that it makes constitutionally guaranteed rights into mere privileges. Rights are unconditional. If you must have a license to exercise a "right", and this license can be denied for any reason—including lack of payment—then it's not really a guaranteed right at all.

      --
      "The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
    224. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by iamwahoo2 · · Score: 1

      In the article, it explicitly states that she does not run a business

      This is why there's rules about what is and isn't a business, and they have very little to do with the protestations of the person running the business/non-business.

      Exactly, that is why there are rules. But in this case, the rules do not appear to exist. If Philadelphia has a law that says any who sells something is running a business, then I will admit that you are right. But I seriously doubt that this is the case, and if it is the case, then they probably have a lot of cracking down to do and there is no reason that they should single out bloggers.

      And your comment about Walmart makes no sense. Walmart does not have a single owner, and even if it was privately owned by a single owner, It is always beneficial to be a business. Why would any business want to pay higher taxes? The default (in any city or state that I have heard of) is that you are not a private business until you decide that you want to be.

    225. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by tomhudson · · Score: 1

      First, this is NOT about income taxes, it's about a business permit at $300 a pop. So, does she operate a blogging platform within the city limits, or is she just accessing something like blogger - which is someone else's business? Most bloggers don't run their blogging software, and have no control over whether it lives or dies. Control is part and parcel of "operating a business".

      Does she have control over the ad platform either? Can she pick and choose what ads are shown? Does she have a business relationship with any of the advertisers? No? Then guess who's operating the business ... the blogging host, not her.

    226. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      I get more hits for "Church Burnings" than for "Mosque attacks" and Mosque Burnings" combined and most of the Mosque articles were about things that took place in Muslim countries. I get a few more hits on "Synagogue attacks" as I do on "Mosque attacks". Considering the number of national media members who have been decrying the "backlash" ever since 9/11, I am pretty sure that any such cases that were significant would make national news.
      I am not the one who claims "It has reportedly resulted in real-world violence against Muslims" and then has no examples to back it up.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    227. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by DarkKnightRadick · · Score: 1

      And for them, they are intentionally blogging FOR BUSINESS PURPOSES.

      From TFA:

      Between her blog and infrequent contributions to ehow.com, over the last few years she says she’s made about $50. To [Marilyn] Bess, her website is a hobby.

      Are you telling me you've never made a few bucks here and there off a hobby? RC Car enthusiasts do it all the time (that is, make a few bucks here and there). Some who do that professionally ARE IN THE BUSINESS of making money and do indeed have a business license. Should every hobbyist that has ever made money off their hobby have to get a business license (and if you answer in the informative, you and the city of Philadelphia need to get together as you're made for each other).

      There is a big difference between a billboard (a dedicated space for placing ads) and a hobbyist blogger or web designer putting ads on their site to make a few bucks off of it.

      --
      "There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death." Proverbs 16:25 (NKJV)
    228. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by jeff4747 · · Score: 1

      If Philadelphia has a law that says any who sells something is running a business, then I will admit that you are right

      Well, they do. Sell stuff for a profit in Philadelphia, and you're technically a business. Even if you're not actually located in Philadelphia (which would be interesting for them to enforce)

      And your comment about Walmart makes no sense

      That would be because it was an example to demonstrate how silly it is to determine "business" or "not business" based only on what the owners wants to consider their operation.

    229. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by jeff4747 · · Score: 1

      I get more hits for "Church Burnings" than for "Mosque attacks" and Mosque Burnings" combine

      Because Google hits is the perfect metric for measuring how frequent a particular activity takes place. And when attacking an individual, we always write up the story as an attack on the building they worship in.

      In case you missed the point, the frequency of the attacks compared to attacks on other places of worship is irrelevant.

      "It has reportedly resulted in real-world violence against Muslims" and then has no examples to back it up.

      Except, of course, for the example I provided.

      Would you prefer a more recent example where they burned a mosque's playground instead?

    230. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by LordLucless · · Score: 1

      She didn't make $2000. The original story is here. The $2000 came after the incident, when a radio station volunteered to sponsor her and registered her properly. The inspectors came "about 20 minutes" after she set up shop. I doubt she sold 4,000 cups in that time.

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    231. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by dacut · · Score: 1

      Oh, I don't *agree* with what I wrote. In fact, I wholly agree with everything you're arguing.

      I'm just stating how the tax collectors will (try to) argue it. I've worked (as a developer) in the tax department at $LARGE_COMPANY, and I've seen some screwy legal interpretations put forth by tax collectors; they're hoping you won't have the willingness to challenge it in a court. (We frequently did, and probably won more than we lost.)

    232. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by iamwahoo2 · · Score: 1

      I checked, and it looks like you are completely right. But for the record... That law is insane.

    233. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by tomhudson · · Score: 1

      Reminds me of the time the provincial gov't. tried to bill 7 years back usage for land that was expropriated. I advised the owner to tell the gov't to go screw themselves (his lawyer was too chicken-shit to say it). He took my advice, the gov't agreed to waive the 7 years and settled for half what the neighbors were paying for the future. A nice 5-figure saving.

    234. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Meh.. that's cool. If the government says that my blog is a business, then I guess the computer(s), internet connection, and the square footage for the "home office" are business expenses.

      I'd love to pay for it with pre-tax dollars.

    235. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by the_womble · · Score: 1

      One of the effects of excessively tight rules on food distribution has been to centralise food processing, which means that when food poisoning does occur it affects far more people.

      A lot of the rules are made without weighing of, or knowledge of all consequences: is the lower incidence of certain diseases that results from banning unpasteurised milk worth the (ten fold) increase in allergies it causes? Allergies kill too.

    236. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by novium · · Score: 1

      As far as I understand it, there weren't any threats- they just shut them down, which is what happens when you're selling/giving food to the public without following all the health and safety laws. I know, I just had to get a temporary vendors food license for a (free) Girl Scout event that was technically open to the public. In my opinion, they were hiding behind her- at least to a certain extent. There's no way a 6 year old would be able - let alone have the notion- to set up a booth at a commercial venue, an art fair, waaaay away from her home. Health departments overlook kids selling lemonade on their street corners. Setting up a booth at a commercial event (one filled with other vendors) is an entirely different kettle of fish, and I think (as best as I can guess on limited information) that the health department was quite justified. Even if it were completely, completely innocent, allowing it to go on would set a bad precedent for vendors to just use their children as excuses for not following the law. "Oh, it's not MY booth, it's my child's, I swear!"

    237. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      And I thought licensing was just for second ammendment rights...

      Only if you are unlucky enough to live in the Northeast or California.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    238. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Meski · · Score: 1

      Define what a license is supposed to be for. It isn't a revenue raiser, or shouldn't be, it's something that defines the license-holder as being qualified to do something. Do we need such a thing for blogs? That the blog might or might not make money isn't relevant, if you want to deal with that, use a properly defined tax.

    239. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by VJ42 · · Score: 1

      As far as I understand it, there weren't any threats

      The article posted up the thread says she was threatened with a $500 fine - IMO what should have happened was an official should have had a quiet word in mum & dad's ear, telling them to close up after the next batch of lemonade was finished or let them get the permit retroactively, oh and here's the forms needed.

      --
      If I have nothing to hide, you have no reason to search me
    240. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by rednip · · Score: 1

      The standard deduction/ itemization is not about business income. If you had a business income you should be filing a schedule C (federal, not sure about state). Please consult a tax attorney for you own sake, obviously you don't know what you are talking about and it is costing you money.

      --
      The force that blew the Big Bang continues to accelerate.
    241. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by badkarmadayaccount · · Score: 1

      The network connectio.n is an expense, may I remind you

      --
      I know tobacco is bad for you, so I smoke weed with crack.
    242. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by demonlapin · · Score: 1

      You obviously know far more than I do about this, but I would ask: for someone who makes $50 in income, would she be better off getting rooked for an unrecognized writeoff of $50, or paying you your minimum fee? ;) I don't do my taxes (anymore), a CPA does. And in the years I ran a for-profit enterprise (tutoring), well, it didn't matter - my wife was paying tuition and the Lifetime Learning Credit reduced our taxes due to zero. And it was a cash business.

      On a more serious note: in the case at hand, it appears that she would definitely fail the IRS business-vs-hobby distinction - she's running a blog for kicks, the money she gets from it is just help in offsetting expenses. In that particular case - when it is definitely a hobby - wouldn't it belong on schedule A? And so not itemizing deductions would matter then. (That way my thought process in the parent comment.)

    243. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by novium · · Score: 1

      The fine may have been not the best decision, but shutting them down I can see. Getting a permit retroactively doesn't do you any good, even if possible because the things required by the permit tend to be pretty specific. For example, just at my little barbecue (and granted, local laws will vary but these are pretty common) I was required to have: a) a dedicated hand-washing station, conforming to department-provided specifications b) a bucket filled with a water/bleach mixture, and test strips to confirm that it was at the right levels c)Separate containers of ice for pretty much everything d) a thermometer to prove that everything was at he right temperatures e)all the receipts proving I had bought everything and not prepared it myself. And that was for something where we bought everything prepared (i.e. hot dogs). I was uberly paranoid about anything that might even look like it involved prep work (for example, serving watermelon, which would require us to cut it) because the rules and requirements would have gotten exponentially more complicated had we moved away from simply serving prepackaged and/or precooked foods.

    244. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Thinboy00 · · Score: 1

      Hey now, let's not mix the federal and local taxes here. In the U.S., localities have right to collect sales tax on everything you sell (with some exceptions). That's the only way selling a book on Amazon or a knick-knack on eBay can be taxed!

      If you sell something you own you typically generate no gains on it -- thus there's no income to be taxed. Thus nothing to report on your state or federal income tax forms.

      IANAL, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

      IANAL either, but:
      Congress has the right to regulate interstate commerce. The States (and, possibly, municipalities etc.) have the right to regulate intrastate commerce. The two don't mix. Hence, the states have no right to tax Amazon or eBay, but Amazon and eBay aren't going to go to court over it so they cooperate.

      --
      $ make available
    245. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by Thinboy00 · · Score: 1

      An elegant piece of code is rarely bulletproof. But otherwise I agree with you.

      --
      $ make available
    246. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by VJ42 · · Score: 1

      The fine may have been not the best decision, but shutting them down I can see. Getting a permit retroactively doesn't do you any good, even if possible because the things required by the permit tend to be pretty specific. For example, just at my little barbecue (and granted, local laws will vary but these are pretty common) ...[snip]... because the rules and requirements would have gotten exponentially more complicated had we moved away from simply serving prepackaged and/or precooked foods.

      Was this a barbecue at home, or a commercial one? Because none of those rules apply here in the UK for a private barbecue, if it's to raise money for charity or other organisation - keep it invite\ticket only & you don't need that stuff.
      Here, rules like that kick in only when you're going to host a public event, even then no where near that much regulation because you'd get the papers shouting "Health and safety gone mad" if you effectively regulated people out of preparing food on site at a fairs and other events. I don't want to sound like a daily mail reader, but what ever happened to common sense?

      --
      If I have nothing to hide, you have no reason to search me
    247. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by robsku · · Score: 1

      Here in Finland there is actually a minimum limit for requirement to pay income tax and even if you run registered company if it makes below that you don't have to pay income tax. Although I'm not one of those that support lowering taxes and complain about them all of time but realize that it's what pays for public healthcare, keeping roads in fit, etc. I think it's a good system and don't know why one should be ripped from such small money.

      --
      In capitalist USA corporations control the government.
    248. Re:Not all bloggers, just those that make money by novium · · Score: 1

      It was a public barbecue, so we needed the permit. If we'd just served our own members, it would have been all good, but the point of the event was to get people interested in Girl Scouts (AKA Girl Guides), so it was public. I imagine the laws in that respect are quite similar. There was nothing that the daily mail would have been shouting out at particularly- the permits were not expensive, and the rules were not terribly onerous.... though it would have been very complicated for me, given the situation. An organization that regularly does something say, at a fair, would not have a problem. Here's what I would have needed, were I to do something that was not precooked/prepackaged- say, hamburgers and potato salad. I would have needed a prep area separated from the public (say a table in a booth), my bucket o' sterilizer, a place to wash the utensils, my trusty handwashing station, a meat thermometer, and a way to keep the potato salad covered and at 40 degrees F. (so, a cooler with ice and a thermometer). If I did any prep before hand and not on-site(say, forming the hamburger patties, slicing tomatoes, etc) it would need to be in a kitchen that could conform to those standards (and NOT a home), and I would need to have a way to keep it cool while transporting it. None of this would have been in and of itself impossible- just a little bit too much work for a one-off quicky event done on the cheap. The number of food booths at fairs, farmer's markets, and various other festivals suggest that quite a few small businesses, non-profits and schools don't find any of this too hard. It just requires a bit of planning and maybe the purchase of some basic equipment you should probably (common-sense) have anyway.

  2. Sounds like philly needs to read the 1st amendment by Joe+The+Dragon · · Score: 0

    Sounds like philly needs to read the 1st amendment and maybe even the 14th Amendment.

  3. Room for discretion and common sense? by Freddybear · · Score: 1, Funny

    That room doesn't exist in any government building.

    1. Re:Room for discretion and common sense? by Lloyd_Bryant · · Score: 2, Funny

      That room doesn't exist in any government building.

      Sure it does. It's the door with the "Beware of Leopard" sign on it.

      --
      Don't tell me to get a life. I had one once. It sucked.
  4. Re:So if you post on any forum you need to pay $30 by digitalunity · · Score: 1

    She can be taxed pro rata based on the money she made, but that's it. Anything else would likely be considered in a court of law as prior restraint on speech.

    --
    You can't legislate goodness. Let each to his own destiny, by will of his freely made choices.
  5. Bad Summary in OP by Stormy+Dragon · · Score: 5, Informative

    If you RTFA, the $300 is the Philadelphia business privelege tax, so she's not being forced to pay for blogging, she's being forced to pay for blogging for money. Which is perhaps ridiculous, but no less ridiculous than it is for any other person in the city who has to pay it.

    1. Re:Bad Summary in OP by DarkKnightRadick · · Score: 1

      She isn't blogging for money. The ad revenue is tertiary to the blogging. After two years it hasn't even paid for the hosting account if she's using a web host like Blue Host.

      --
      "There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death." Proverbs 16:25 (NKJV)
    2. Re:Bad Summary in OP by night_flyer · · Score: 1

      do the local papers also have to pay this tax? serious question...

      --


      Thanks to file sharing, I purchase more CDs
      Thanks to the RIAA, I buy them used...
    3. Re:Bad Summary in OP by digitalunity · · Score: 1

      It IS ridiculous to say that someone needs to pay a business tax to engage in any activity that nets money. Blogging isn't special because it's on the internet. It is speech, even if she did get paid a paltry sum for it.

      --
      You can't legislate goodness. Let each to his own destiny, by will of his freely made choices.
    4. Re:Bad Summary in OP by blackraven14250 · · Score: 1

      Yes. Every income-generating business does.

    5. Re:Bad Summary in OP by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

      Yes, it is required of every business. This is true in just about every town or city - to get a license to operate you must pay for a license. Often, there is a floor, below which you may not be required to get one, and a ceiling above which you pay a percentage of your gross receipts (or income). It means businesses pay a portion of the funds it requires to run the city (police, fire, cleanup, trash, etc.)

      This is a "privilege tax," which is simply a way to extract a minimum fixed fee for the opportunity to conduct business in a city. You can think of it as an extortion or protection money, but it's more appropriately likened to a cover charge. this is most common for service/professional fields. Tennessee, for example, has a professional privilege tax ($400/yr) for anyone with an active professional license (engineers, architects, accountants, doctors, lawyers; there may be others). It's why I keep my license inactive in that state, and will only activate it if I have a job large enough to cover the cost (and the client will be indirectly billed for it in my fee).

           

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    6. Re:Bad Summary in OP by rolfwind · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Anything that doesn't aim to recoup it's own costs, let alone make a profit isn't a business. This intent is fully visible, that operating several years with loss, that she goes on funding her hobby without making changes.

      But two wrongs don't make a right. Philadelphia has been losing population since the 1950s, partly with shit like this. In fact, all of PA has budget troubles, but not because the government doesn't rake enough cash in, but in both cases because of having too many union workers, ridiculous pensions, and spending too much. In fact, they are raising the school taxes here because of the losses in the 2008-9 stock market decline and apparently the teachers can gamble in the market and never lose. I believe Philly too was looking how to recover cityworker pensions though increased taxes? But who will bail out the taxpayers?

      And whoever wrote the line in the summary "yes, cash-strapped cities can't very well ignore potential sources of income." Fuck you. The taxpayers are not some piggybank to be siphoned off at will. There are very few places I see that really cut spending even though the private sector does. The governments' job used to be to carry out it's limited enumerated duties and impose a tax needed to cover it, not maximize it's own revenue.

    7. Re:Bad Summary in OP by VJ42 · · Score: 1

      If you RTFA, the $300 is the Philadelphia business privelege tax, so she's not being forced to pay for blogging, she's being forced to pay for blogging for money. Which is perhaps ridiculous, but no less ridiculous than it is for any other person in the city who has to pay it.

      I did read it, It sounds like the money is probably coming from Google ads - she's hardly running a business, and even if she was, she made $50 "over the last few years" - it'll probably cost them more to collect the tax than she will actually pay back ($300 included) when you consider the cost of all the government employees involved in tracking her down, sending, signing and delivering the letter asking for the money, actually collecting and counting the money etc. etc. - the whole thing is dumb.

      --
      If I have nothing to hide, you have no reason to search me
    8. Re:Bad Summary in OP by tburkhol · · Score: 1

      Exactly. This is like requiring a business license for a lemonade stand. Your kid's lemonade stand probably doesn't need a license, but Daddy's Lemonade does. If this blogger made enough money from her blog to interest the IRS, then a business license may be appropriate.

    9. Re:Bad Summary in OP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I get the feeling summaries are only that bad so people have to RTFA.

    10. Re:Bad Summary in OP by canajin56 · · Score: 1

      The better question is, does each writer for the paper have to pay it? Or is it just the paper?

      --
      ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI
    11. Re:Bad Summary in OP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are right, blogging isn't special because it is on the internet. And, the city isn't saying that she has to pay the fee because she is on the internet; she has to pay it because she is operating a business. It IS NOT ridiculous to say that someone needs to pay a business license fee (not tax) to engage in a business (an activity that nets money). It WOULD BE ridiculous to say the someone needs to pay a business license fee for an activity online that didn't require the same fee if it wasn't online.

      Don't declare that you are running a business, if you don't want to pay business fees. This activity could be considered a hobby at the amount it makes, and could be claimed as such.

    12. Re:Bad Summary in OP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just think if Philly charged Slashdot per misleading headline...

    13. Re:Bad Summary in OP by Wonko+the+Sane · · Score: 1

      It IS NOT ridiculous to say that someone needs to pay a business license fee (not tax) to engage in a business

      Why not? What gives a person or group of people the right to demand that someone else must ask for permission from them before engaging in commerce?

    14. Re:Bad Summary in OP by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      People on here don't understand, there are only two things that are approved activities if you live in Philadelphia: collecting welfare and working for the City. If you work in Philadelphia they harge you a wage tax that it is 2-3 times higher than in the surroundign communities. If you actually live in the city and have a job, the local wage tax is about 1/2 percentage point more than for those who live outside the city but work in it. If you shop in the City of Philadelphia, sales tax is 1% point higher than in the surrounding communities.
      If you are a productive member of society, they do not want you in Philadelphia.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    15. Re:Bad Summary in OP by FooAtWFU · · Score: 1

      But two wrongs don't make a right. Philadelphia has been losing population since the 1950s, partly with shit like this. In fact, all of PA has budget troubles, but not because the government doesn't rake enough cash in, but in both cases because of having too many union workers, ridiculous pensions, and spending too much.

      Mmm. Back in the 80s when I was like 2 years old and we were poor (not quite "crisco sandwiches" poor or anything, but "bum on the street offers you a subway token" poor) and I was helping my mother in the kitchen kneading dough for baked goods we could sell, we didn't have to pay no stinkin' $300/yr business license. It's come to this now? Sad.

      (And that was also a bit of a recession like we have now, mind you, so it's not like she could have just gone out and expected to have a job to drop into her lap or anything.)

      Seriously, way to put a damper on entrepreneurship and small businesses.

      --
      The World Wide Web is dying. Soon, we shall have only the Internet.
    16. Re:Bad Summary in OP by Wonko+the+Sane · · Score: 1

      Seriously, way to put a damper on entrepreneurship and small businesses.

      That's how they eliminated private enterprise in the Soviet Union - a steady ramping up of fees, taxes, rules and regulations until no one could afford to run a business any more.

    17. Re:Bad Summary in OP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Common culture and the social contract. What gives a person or group of people the right is the system of government that we set up where we elect representatives to make rules and laws and run our municipal organizations. If you want anarchy, please go somewhere else.

    18. Re:Bad Summary in OP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you want rule by a thieving oligarchy class then please go somewhere else.

    19. Re:Bad Summary in OP by scharkalvin · · Score: 1

      IANAL, but I don't see how the city can tag internet blogs, since the internet is regulated by the FCC or other federal agencies and the city has no say in the matter. The ONLY thing the city can (try) and do is collect SALES TAX due on items sold over the internet (IF the buyer was in the city).

    20. Re:Bad Summary in OP by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Don't declare that you are running a business, if you don't want to pay business fees. This activity could be considered a hobby at the amount it makes, and could be claimed as such.

      Not exactly true, from what I'm reading here.

      Yes, if you ask the IRS, they'll say this is a hobby, because 1) they don't want to be bothered by someone making less money for ads than it costs for hosting (i.e., her activity is a net loss), and 2) they don't want someone operating a money-losing "business" to be able to take deductions (like the hefty home-office deduction) for what is really just a hobby.

      However, if you ask the stupid City, apparently they think it's a business, and want her to get a license.

      So who should she believe? It seems she's going to get in trouble either way.

    21. Re:Bad Summary in OP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, indeed, fuck that guy. I get so pissed off by the fact that our politicians have this huge sense of entitlement...and whoever wrote that the gov't shouldn't ignore a source of income...Say what? The government doesn't have "income", it's our god damn money. If they explore new sources of revenue, it means we are paying them to look at taking more money from us.

      Some people just don't get it. I'm glad you do. We need more people like you on this planet, and in this country.

      (AC because I'm too pissed to log in)

    22. Re:Bad Summary in OP by SPCagigas · · Score: 1

      I disagree with your first statement. Need I remind everyone that General Motors operated at a loss from 3Q2007 until 1Q2010 (that's two and a half years). By the above logic, that makes it clear that GM isn't aiming to recoup its own costs or make a profit, and hence is not a business.

      Or, I could go take a look at GM's corporate bylaws and incorporation statements on their investor relations web site (find it under gm.com). The only statement I can see there is "The nature of the business or purposes to be conducted or promoted is to engage in any lawful act or activity for which corporations may be organized under the General Corporation Law of Delaware." Hmm... nothing there about making a profit. Is it just ASSUMED that the intent of a corporation is to make money? That's contrary to the accepted definition of a corporation, as "an association of individuals, created by law or under authority of law, having a continuous existence independent of the existences of its members, and powers and liabilities distinct from those of its members." Hmm... nothing there about making a profit either...

      So, while I agree that a $300 business license seems over-priced based on the profit that this blogger has made, I can't see how you could arbitrarily decide who is a business and who isn't. Please clarify.

    23. Re:Bad Summary in OP by afiske · · Score: 1

      What gives a person or group of people the right to demand that someone else must ask for permission from them before engaging in commerce?

      The fact that we live in a democratic society and that the people who write and enforce those laws are elected by us?

    24. Re:Bad Summary in OP by Wonko+the+Sane · · Score: 1

      The fact that a decision was made democratically has absolutely no bearing on whether or not is infringes on someone's rights.

    25. Re:Bad Summary in OP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And whoever wrote the line in the summary "yes, cash-strapped cities can't very well ignore potential sources of income." Fuck you. The taxpayers are not some piggybank to be siphoned off at will. There are very few places I see that really cut spending even though the private sector does. The governments' job used to be to carry out it's limited enumerated duties and impose a tax needed to cover it, not maximize it's own revenue.

      Yes, to government a reducing an increase in spending is considered a cut even though they are able to spend more than they were the previous year. It's well past the time to vote with your feet and shun these cities for good.

    26. Re:Bad Summary in OP by Bryansix · · Score: 1

      No. You are so ignorant. It is a "business privilege license" not a tax and it is required by the city. However this is bullshit because she does not DO BUSINESS in the city. She could just write her blog while on a road trip across the country. Why would the city need to collect this fee? What is the point. Of course she has to pay taxes on Net Profit but she does not need to hire an accountant to do that. She has no place of Business so the city is completely out of line asking her to maintain a Business License.

    27. Re:Bad Summary in OP by Bryansix · · Score: 1

      No it IS extortion. Think of it this way. This country was founded because we didn't want to be taxed without represenation. Yet that is exactly what happens now and with this fee the business is probably taxed on the same income like 3 or 4 times. Its complete bullshit. Just set one level of taxation on net profits and stop making up phony fees to padd your wallet you stupid fucking politicians! One of these days people are going to wake up and demand the fair tax be instituted.

    28. Re:Bad Summary in OP by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

      Hold on there, colonial cowboy. This isn't a taxation without representation - you pay the tax ONLY if you make your blog in the city. They're not charging Texans this fee for providing access to Philidelphians.

      Many things are taxed multiple times. And where did this "net profits" bullshit come from. If I make no money, does that mean I didn't use any city services? "net profit" based taxation is a way for businesses to avoid paying their fair share of the costs associated with running all the bits and pieces that keep cities from being absolute hellholes. Okay, we're talking Philly, so maybe that was a bad example.

      Get back to me when you're ready to scrap all this stuff for a flat, gross receipts tax. Then I'll be all ears. Of course, I'll presume that you're okay with each entity that provides services getting their own cut (fed, state, local).

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
  6. Re:So if you post on any forum you need to pay $30 by ironjaw33 · · Score: 3, Funny

    TFA is a bit confusing on this point -- it mentions something about income on a tax return, but that's about it. I'm deducing that if you bring in any ad revenue from a blog and you report it in your tax return, you're obligated to purchase the $300 business licence. Since US income taxes are limited to state and federal, I'm not sure how a municipality would enforce this. Also, I keep an informal blog that isn't ad supported -- it costs me money to run. If I were a Philly resident, would I be expected to get a business licence for that?

  7. Lesson learned? by Bai+jie · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It seems that the state only knows about these bloggers because they reported income made from blogs on their taxes. Seems like the lesson here is to not report small gains on your taxes else your state will fleece you.

    This is sad because these people did pay taxes on this tiny amount of income already on their income tax. By trying to be good citizens and play by the rules they are rewarded with a fee that would either put them out of business or make them less honest about their income in the future.

    1. Re:Lesson learned? by DarkKnightRadick · · Score: 1

      Technically the IRS doesn't require you to report income under $20k IIRC

      --
      "There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death." Proverbs 16:25 (NKJV)
    2. Re:Lesson learned? by Shakrai · · Score: 4, Informative

      $600, not $20,000......

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    3. Re:Lesson learned? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Honesty is not a vurtue when dealing with thieves.

    4. Re:Lesson learned? by frosty_tsm · · Score: 1

      +1 informative.

      There are many myths about taxes that are used by people to justify not paying them. You can bet all those walmart employees are paying taxes, so $20,000 fails the sniff test.

    5. Re:Lesson learned? by DarkKnightRadick · · Score: 1

      Are you sure? Last time I filled out my 1040ez the form said I didn't need to report any income under $20K (though that might have been in regard to gifts now that I think of it).

      --
      "There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death." Proverbs 16:25 (NKJV)
    6. Re:Lesson learned? by DarkKnightRadick · · Score: 1

      Either way, $50 is way under $600.

      --
      "There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death." Proverbs 16:25 (NKJV)
    7. Re:Lesson learned? by hedwards · · Score: 2, Informative

      What you typically do is report the income as miscellaneous, which for small sums of money the IRS is OK with, you still pay the standard income tax rate for your bracket, but they can't come back and say you didn't pay your taxes. Not sure about state income tax, we don't have that here. Last I checked which was a few years back, they didn't really tax this sort of thing unless something was produced in the process. The only tax here on this sort of thing is the B&O tax, which will hopefully finally be repealed later this year in exchange for a select income tax on high earners.

    8. Re:Lesson learned? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It seems that the state only knows about these bloggers because they reported income made from blogs on their taxes. Seems like the lesson here is to not report small gains on your taxes else your state will fleece you.

      I used to sell a good bit of stuff on ebay. At one point, I asked a friend who owned a small business for advice on how to go "legit". His advice was to do nothing - that all it would do would be to put a big "AUDIT ME" sign on your account and give you all sorts of headaches.

    9. Re:Lesson learned? by mdarksbane · · Score: 1

      It's like the online purchases section of the IRS forms that every accountant in the world will tell you to leave completely blank, or you're just begging them to make you prove every single thing you bought or didn't buy on the internet.

    10. Re:Lesson learned? by tibit · · Score: 1

      Not on the IRS forms. On the state forms. And not for every state, for example NH doesn't care, they have no sales tax.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
  8. do ALL 'journalists' have to pay the same? by zoomshorts · · Score: 0

    If so, does that count for out of state 'journalists'?

    This is a sad thing. If she was an award winning fulltime
    journalist, then I might be able to see this as a business license
    type of thing. If it is basically a hobby, then each of
    the elected officials should pay a tax on their hobby, like golf
    or tennis, or fishing , etc. The minimum tax should be , say,
    $300.00 per year.

    I would prefer they pay double their income to the State as a
    privilege tax on being politicians.

  9. Re:So if you post on any forum you need to pay $30 by PseudonymousBraveguy · · Score: 0

    So if you post on any forum you need to pay $300?

    Short answer: No.

    Long answer: Noooooooooooooooo.

    Even longer answer: If you make mony with a website or a blog, you'll have to pay taxes (surprise, surprise). If you don't make money, you don't have to pay. Nothing to see here, move along.

  10. File Taxes by Herkum01 · · Score: 1

    The Lesson: Don't file income on small stuff like the $5 you earned blogging because the state does have common sense. If you go ahead and file this income then neither do you.

  11. Not completely outragious... by bleh-of-the-huns · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'm sure I will get flamed for this..

    While I personnaly do not consider people blogging, to be business entities, I do not make up the rules. Whether or not the rule is flawed here is not the point, until said rule is changed people will have to abide by it. I consider a blog by a corporate entity an extension of the business they are running or services they are providing.

    That being said, there should be some common sense involved when enforcing it based on the amount of income a blog generates. In the case of those referenced in to article, making them pay seems a little ridiculous.

    --
    I came, I conquered, I coredumped
    1. Re:Not completely outragious... by DarkKnightRadick · · Score: 1

      The blogger referenced in the submission is running a personal blog.

      --
      "There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death." Proverbs 16:25 (NKJV)
    2. Re:Not completely outragious... by oodaloop · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Unless she is incorporated, it should be considered a personally owned business. Do 17 year olds who mow their neighbors' lawns have to pay this fee? Paying tax on the income ($50) makes sense, but paying $300 for being a business doesn't.

      --
      Tic-Tac-Toe, Global Thermonuclear War, and relationships all have the same winning move.
    3. Re:Not completely outragious... by MindlessAutomata · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Whether or not the rule is flawed here is not the point, until said rule is changed people will have to abide by it.

      Like with not hiding away Jews during the holocaust? I feel real disgust for the people that kept Anne Frank hidden away...

    4. Re:Not completely outragious... by iamwahoo2 · · Score: 1

      Cracking down is completely unnecessary. The fact is, a home based business serves as an excellent tax shelter, and the IRS does not want people declaring hobbies like this as a business because they will lose out on tax revenue. If I could start a personal blog and be allowed to declare it as a business on my taxes, then I would start one tomorrow.

    5. Re:Not completely outragious... by frosty_tsm · · Score: 1

      ... I do not make up the rules. Whether or not the rule is flawed here is not the point, until said rule is changed people will have to abide by it.

      I wholeheartedly agree. If you don't like a law, you should fight to change it rather than break it.

      As always, there are exceptions to this such as great injustice such as the civil rights movement. No, the Superbowl half-time show incident doesn't count.

    6. Re:Not completely outragious... by Elky+Elk · · Score: 1

      There are just too many stupid laws to seriously consider fighting them all. Sometimes you should just ignore them if you can.

    7. Re:Not completely outragious... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Not only do 17 year olds mowing their neighbors' lawns have to pay this fee if they operate their business within city boundaries, they also have to pay the self-employment FICA tax rate in addition to paying any federal tax their earned income incurs.

      If the neighbors don't verify that the teenager is operating an official business (with their own tools, liability and worker's compensation insurance) they could be liable for some serious change. A politically motivated neighbor would have serious trouble if they ran for public office without doing these things. More than one political career has been ruined - because of filing false tax returns when not paying the appropriate "nanny tax."

      Pretty, isn't it?

    8. Re:Not completely outragious... by bleh-of-the-huns · · Score: 1

      You are equating genocide... with the rules of business.. seriously.. there is something wrong with you...

      --
      I came, I conquered, I coredumped
    9. Re:Not completely outragious... by 2obvious4u · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You do not have to follow bad rules. You do have to live by the consequences of not following a bad rule, but you should never obey a bad rule or law. You should disobey it fervently and work to get it corrected. As long as you can live with the consequences that may come your way from disobeying it, be it fines or even jail time.

      Where would we be if we didn't constantly challenge bad laws through civil disobedience? Well for starters we wouldn't be able to drink alcohol, some of us would still be forced to sit on the back of the bus, and we'd still be ruled by the British. Oh and we'd line up in colored uniforms in strait lines shooting at each other...

      People who obey rules just because it is a rule are a problem. Always question the rules and why the rule is needed, you may find that many rules aren't needed once you explain the reason behind it.

    10. Re:Not completely outragious... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      She has adds - adds generate money, therefore the CONTENT being personal is immaterial, it is a for-profit enterprise (she just isn't really making a profit). All these people claiming she isn't really making money therefore she shouldn't need to pay the taxes just need to remember our lovely movie industry where they never "make a profit" because of all the games they play on the 100's of millions of dollars they rake in....should they be exempt from paying taxes on that money as well??!?

    11. Re:Not completely outragious... by IndustrialComplex · · Score: 2, Informative

      Unless she is incorporated, it should be considered a personally owned business. Do 17 year olds who mow their neighbors' lawns have to pay this fee? Paying tax on the income ($50) makes sense, but paying $300 for being a business doesn't.

      It's PA and more importantly, Philadelphia. That city is an anathema to economic freedom.

      Occupational Privledge tax (Sucks if you are an engineer that is underemployed)
      Wage tax (4% right off the top)
      Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if you needed a permit to apply for a license in Philadelphia.

      I lived in the area for most of my adult life, and one thing you learned is that you should avoid the influence of Philadelphia City Hall like the plague. An employer would have to pay me a hell of a lot more to put up with that city.

      Isn't it amazing that Philadelphia is doing so well?

      --
      Out of modpoints but really liked a post? 1BDkF6TtmmeZ3yqXbz9yhdYVqRYnwFoXDj
    12. Re:Not completely outragious... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you understand the different types of businesses out there? Not every business (in fact, very few small businesses) is a corporation. Most are sole proprietorships, partnerships, or limited liability companies.

      Technically, yes, a 17 year old who mows their neighbors yard would need to pay this fee. However, if their income is below the federal filing minimum (which is $600), they wouldn't be required to file and wouldn't be required to have a business license.

      Everyone remember, this article is not about blogging. It isn't the blogging that generated the income. It is about selling ad space that generate the income.

    13. Re:Not completely outragious... by DarkKnightRadick · · Score: 1

      No one is saying "she shouldn't have to pay taxes". We're talking about a business privilege license. Not the same thing (not exactly).

      The movie industry makes tons of profit (though theaters generally only see real profit off of concessions), especially from royalty payments off of distribution through video (tv, dvd, direct distribution via Internet (dvd and downloads)).

      She has ads on her site that don't pay the hosting bill for a year (cheapest hosting per month I've seen is $4.95/month, at 11 months you've exceeded that $50).

      And it's ads, not adds.

      --
      "There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death." Proverbs 16:25 (NKJV)
    14. Re:Not completely outragious... by Shoe+Puppet · · Score: 1

      Reductio ad absurdum is a perfectly valid form of argument. The principle is the same, whether it is about genocide or about having to pay a fee.

      --
      (+1, Disagree)
    15. Re:Not completely outragious... by BobMcD · · Score: 1

      Unless she is incorporated, it should be considered a personally owned business. Do 17 year olds who mow their neighbors' lawns have to pay this fee? Paying tax on the income ($50) makes sense, but paying $300 for being a business doesn't.

      Not only this, but hidden within Obamacare is a provision that requires 17 year olds to issue IRS forms for everyone they do more than $600 worth of transactions in a year. That's every customer they have, and at least one gas station. Probably WalMart as well.

    16. Re:Not completely outragious... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      She has adds - adds generate money

      Sorry, I stop reading after two signs of profound mental retardation.

    17. Re:Not completely outragious... by sjames · · Score: 1

      Human activity is quite varied and NO set in stone law can possibly cover even a fraction of the corner cases. Attempting to do so either leaves gaping loopholes that crooks can drive a truck through or creates an overbearing dictatorship where the state micro-manages your life.

      The solution is COMMON SENSE. That phrase in this context generally means recognizing that for a particular circumstance the spirit of the law would not be served by a strict enforcement of it's letter. If/when the same question keeps coming up, it does make sense to alter the law to make it clear how a particular class of corner case is to be handled, but that should not necessarily imply that common sense is no longer required.

      Consider the case of ANTI-common sense. Expel every student in the school system because that's the penalty for carrying a knife in school, we all know that in Japan the hand can be used like a knife (but this doesn't work on a tomato). and all the students have hands. Or go the other way and allow razor blades because they aren't actually knives. Declare any sharp object that CAN be used to inflict injury as a weapon and you accidentally ban pencils.

      Common sense isn't just something government SHOULD exercise, it's something that it MUST exercise or society will rip itself apart.

    18. Re:Not completely outragious... by sjames · · Score: 1

      Many advise that an employee should consider themself a one person business that sells it's time to a single customer (the employer) should everyone with a job have to pay?

    19. Re:Not completely outragious... by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Instead of fighting to change it, why not follow your advice and abide by it?

      Then, this blogger can take the IRS home-office tax deduction, which is quite substantial and will more than pay for this business license. However, the IRS will get pissed because she's taking a big deduction for what's really hobby activity that's generating a loss, and she could get in big trouble with the IRS. So whose laws should she abide by, the IRS's, or the City's? She can't abide by both.

    20. Re:Not completely outragious... by scamper_22 · · Score: 1

      Are 17 year olds who mow lawns stupid enough to report such income on their tax return?

      As much as we can rant about the government here, the blogger is just as much to blame by reporting such small income.

      If Philly is declaring blogging a business... well TRY and take advantage of it... pay the $300, and then write off your home, computer, meals, car... you use all those for blogging you know! Not sure how the IRS would like that :P

      Sure government is messed up... but you're equally stupid if you haven't learned how to deal with the screwed up government.
      In this case, don't report the income. Let them come to you and then claim ignorance... because that's what it is. You have no idea how to navigate the tax system as it related to blogging.

    21. Re:Not completely outragious... by Bryansix · · Score: 1

      The Sole Proprietorship doesn't operate from a PHYSICAL ADDRESS. What part of that are people missing. Yes, she has to pay taxes on the net income. No she does not need a business license. If she blogs on the road from San Francisco then will she suddenly need a business license there? Come on people. This is simple and easy to understand. Business Licenses are tied to PHYSICAL LOCATIONS!

    22. Re:Not completely outragious... by Beezlebub33 · · Score: 1

      Um....where? If you mean the "Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act" bill, it is available here. If you mean the amendment "Health Care and Education Reconciliation Act of 2010", the text is available at THOMAS, from the Library of Congress. Where does it say that?

      I'm not saying that I know that they do or do not include a provision for 17 year olds to issue IRS forms, but that doesn't sound right. And a quick search for the value $600 doesn't come up with anything like the above.

      --
      The more people I meet, the better I like my dog.
  12. Re:So if you post on any forum you need to pay $30 by paiute · · Score: 1

    So if you post on any forum you need to pay $300?

    No, that is not anywhere near what the story was about. You obviously did not read the....

    Yes. Yes, it is true. Please send your $300 to me at once:

    paiute
    33 Whatajolly Street
    Bang'er, ME 8679305

    or we will have to turn your account over to a collection agency.

    --
    If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
  13. So it's not always sunny in Philadelphia? by elrous0 · · Score: 1

    Oh wait, I just thought of the name for my new blog.

    --
    SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
  14. so much for "free" speech by mayberry42 · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Since when has PT, $1/month blogging become a business!? While this is insanely stupid, I'm wondering what the impact will be on free speech (now i have to PAY to have the privilege to express my opinions!? Since when has this become a privilege, and not a right anymore?). The ironic part, if you think about it, is that the government is trying to raise revenues to "help the poor" (their usual excuse), yet it's the lower income bloggers (who can't afford the $300 fee) who will have to shut up in favour of those with money who can afford the fees.

    1. Re:so much for "free" speech by rwv · · Score: 1

      Since when has PT, $1/month blogging become a business!?

      When money is exchanged for goods/services on a regular basis, a business is being run.

      Blogging is a cottage industry. It makes no difference whether the blogger is successful or not, they're running a business if they make agreements to accept money for advertisements to appear on their sites.

    2. Re:so much for "free" speech by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Anything is a business if you claim it as such on your taxes. There are (in most cases) very specific rules about what you do and do not have to claim on your taxes. If you claimed you were a business and generated income, they would be required to purchase a business license, no matter how much revenue you actually generate (actually, the article is even worse, as it doesn't say whether that was income or profit; and whether the person claimed business expenses). Usually, incidental income of less than (depending on the state) between $200-$500 doesn't have to be reported at all.

      Small bloggers dont have to pay any fee, unless they want to try and claim income and have a business. Then, they have to play by the rules, no matter what.

    3. Re:so much for "free" speech by tibit · · Score: 1

      If I'm employed and get my salary, I regularly exchange my services for money. According to you it's a business? LOL.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    4. Re:so much for "free" speech by rwv · · Score: 1

      And according to you... would people who author blogs are be employees of the Google Corporation? After all... AdWords is paying them! For an article where so many say, "Use Common Sense", I find your witty retort to be particularly dim.

    5. Re:so much for "free" speech by tibit · · Score: 1

      Nope. There is plenty of precent for doing things like that without having to be a business. If you write software, you can certainly be a contractor (or an employee) for development work. Or you can write it, offer licenses for sale, and collect royalties. If it were up to me, I'd say that AdWords income should be treated like income from a rental property. If you rent out a room in your house, you don't have to have a business.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
  15. Re:Sounds like philly needs to read the 1st amendm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sounds like you need to read the RTFAmendment

  16. what if the ad's pay for the website costs and $1- by Joe+The+Dragon · · Score: 2, Insightful

    what if the ad's pay for the website costs and $1-$2 is left over each month?

  17. Re:So if you post on any forum you need to pay $30 by DarkKnightRadick · · Score: 2, Informative

    Paying taxes isn't at issue. It's whether or not she needs to have a business license for her blog which generated gross profits of $50 over TWO YEARS.

    --
    "There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death." Proverbs 16:25 (NKJV)
  18. Re:Sounds like philly needs to read the 1st amendm by cHiphead · · Score: 1

    Sounds like you aren't thinking in terms of State and Local law vs Federal law. State law requires a business license (or 'tax') to conduct business, if you are making money doing something as a 'business' and are not employed by someone who already has a business tax paid, you are running a business and have to pay this tax. Its annoying but its the standard across the country.

    --

    This is my sig. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
  19. Re:So if you post on any forum you need to pay $30 by Lloyd_Bryant · · Score: 1

    Since US income taxes are limited to state and federal, I'm not sure how a municipality would enforce this.

    Some larger cities also have an income tax. In the case of Philadelphia, they have something called a "wage tax", which they say is not an "income tax" - not sure exactly what the difference is.

    --
    Don't tell me to get a life. I had one once. It sucked.
  20. She has a very good case by mmontalvo · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The IRS would consider this to be nothing more than a hobby. They define a business as an entity that is expected to make a profit. This clearly would not be expected to make a profit.

    1. Re:She has a very good case by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 1

      They define a business as an entity that is expected to make a profit.

      Well, that gets Detroit's auto industry and Wall Street off the IRS hook, then.

      --
      Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
  21. 1st amendment by snookerhog · · Score: 1

    ironically written in Philadelphia...

  22. One Question! by smith6174 · · Score: 1

    How much are they paying to keep track of this? I'm sure at least one person out there is in charge of this. THAT sounds like a good place to save some money!

  23. Inevitable taxing of the free money by hessian · · Score: 4, Insightful

    All those ads, Examiner.com payments, "send paypal donation" buttons, etc. have been untaxed income for a long time. All that's happening now is that states are awakening and correcting the balance.

    Asking for a business license so that you can publish content and be paid for it is not an unfair thing. In fact, it's fair to those who want to sell hot dogs instead, and also have to get licensed as a result.

    1. Re:Inevitable taxing of the free money by Bruha · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'm willing to bet the hot dog man makes more than 50 dollars a year off hot dogs.

    2. Re:Inevitable taxing of the free money by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      The people who are selling hot dogs can poison people if they don't fellow safe food handling procedures. The State has a legitimate interest in regulating them to ensure that this doesn't happen.

      Please explain to me how a blog can harm the community and why the state should be allowed to regulate them.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    3. Re:Inevitable taxing of the free money by DriedClexler · · Score: 1

      I thought donations counted as gifts and so weren't taxed? Naive me, I guess.

      In any case, yes, this is perfectly normal: governments throwing up bizarre barriers hobbies and businesses that have no grounding in concern for the public. The only question is whether you count this "normality" as an argument for or against this kind of thing. Are you only upset at Philly because it hits too close to home, or because you oppose things like this generally?

      Aye, there's the rub.

      --
      Information theory is life. The rest is just the KL divergence.
    4. Re:Inevitable taxing of the free money by zoomshorts · · Score: 0

      "Asking for a business license so that you can publish content and be paid for it is not an unfair thing. In fact, it's fair to those who want to sell hot dogs instead, and also have to get licensed as a result."

      I would argue against this line of thought. Selling hot dogs requires a business license, a health
      permit, requirements to maintain a clean place of business, manage inventory, insurance, the list
      goes on and on. Blogging, on the other hand requires none of these.

      You are confusing a 'brick and mortar' type of business with a cyberspace existence. Unless the blogger is making money hand over fist(as the saying goes), they are basically just doing vanity
      publishing.

    5. Re:Inevitable taxing of the free money by Jackie_Chan_Fan · · Score: 1

      and for all that balance correction....

      what are the people getting from their country that they pay for?

      Happy unemployment.

      It seems like this does very little balance anything. If anything, the scales have been tipped in the government/upper class's favor for a long long time.

    6. Re:Inevitable taxing of the free money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The fees the hot dog vendor pays should directly go towards things like, say, health inspection to protect the consumers of said hot dog. What comparable government service exists in the realm of blogging? Is it all the local government oversight of Net Neutrality which ensures that all the "local" ISPs are serving those blogs without discrimination?
       
      Sure, taxes should be collected on any income after expenses, but paying for a license to operate a business should only take place when there's a comparable return for the business.

    7. Re:Inevitable taxing of the free money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Very naive you. Gifts are most certainly taxes everywhere in the US. Look up Windfall Income.

    8. Re:Inevitable taxing of the free money by mjwalshe · · Score: 1

      yes but screwup on the hygine side of a food business and you can kill some one so there is a value to being registerd.

    9. Re:Inevitable taxing of the free money by DriedClexler · · Score: 1

      Crap! Now I've got to look up the value of the automatic litterbox my brother got me so I can pay taxes on it!

      I think I prefer cat crap to IRS crap.

      --
      Information theory is life. The rest is just the KL divergence.
    10. Re:Inevitable taxing of the free money by Jason+Levine · · Score: 1

      And even if they are making money hand over fist (which very few bloggers actually do), they should pay income tax on their earnings, but shouldn't be forced to buy business licenses. (Though at that point, it might make financial sense to set up a LLC or something.)

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    11. Re:Inevitable taxing of the free money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No....

    12. Re:Inevitable taxing of the free money by Maltheus · · Score: 1

      And it's not an unfair thing to pay the mafia protection money to keep them from breaking your legs.

    13. Re:Inevitable taxing of the free money by Bryansix · · Score: 1

      Bullshit. If you sell hotdog you pay for a license because you have a PHYSICAL ADDRESS. Blogging is not tied to a locality!

  24. Re:So if you post on any forum you need to pay $30 by tepples · · Score: 1

    US income taxes are limited to state and federal

    A state can delegate taxation to municipalities.

  25. Slippery slope by Wonko+the+Sane · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This kind of result is to be expected once you concede the point that a person requires permission from the government (a license) in order to engage in commerce.

    Once you have agreed to be a serf it's hardly surprising when you get treated like one.

    1. Re:Slippery slope by bigrat · · Score: 1

      This isn't about money so much as it is about the government dipping a toe into the "regulate blogging" pool.

      If you have to have a license to blog, what happens when you "lose" your license?

    2. Re:Slippery slope by Wonko+the+Sane · · Score: 1

      If you have to have a license to blog, what happens when you "lose" your license?

      You're missing the larger principle - once you've accepted the fact that you must ask permission from the government to exercise inherent rights then you don't really have any rights anymore. All you have are privileges that may be granted or withheld at whim.

    3. Re:Slippery slope by scifiber_phil · · Score: 1

      Yes, you've said it all, and once the whole "privilege" concept is accepted, the hoops to be jumped through become endless.

  26. Freedom has been sold to the greedy policy police. by GarryFre · · Score: 1

    Business and government have been making policy and using that word as an excuse not to make exceptions for decades and this is the result .. government agencies that are like retarded automatons, no thinking, no sense common or otherwise, no accountability, just the big machine rolling over people without any regard for justice or right or wrong.

    --
    www.Migrainesoft.com - Computer giving you a headache? We can fix that!
  27. Maybe she grossed much more than $50? by billrp · · Score: 1

    The article says she made $50. But many small business owners will deduct as business expenses almost everything, including computer costs, internet access costs, home office costs, mileage going to/from the local computer store to buy a cable, monthly phone and cell phone costs, books, pizza delivered while blogging, hotel room while "interviewing" someone for the blog - almost anything can be considered a business expense. So maybe she grossed $20,000 last year, and had $19,950 in expenses.

    1. Re:Maybe she grossed much more than $50? by VJ42 · · Score: 1

      So maybe she grossed $20,000 last year, and had $19,950 in expenses.

      It's a blog, how many hobbyist blogs make that kind of money? It's blocked here at work, but the article linked from TFA says her blog is "MS Philly Organic, a small, low-traffic blog that features occasional posts about green living, out of her Manayunk home." i.e. not the kind to make $20,000 a year.
      She claims to have made $50 "over the last few years", sounds to me like that Google ads have earned her a bit of cash from her hobby - why should she need a business license for something that doesn't sound like a business at all?

      --
      If I have nothing to hide, you have no reason to search me
    2. Re:Maybe she grossed much more than $50? by billrp · · Score: 1

      So why would she ever file income tax statements for her business??? She set herself up. It's trivial for local government IT departments to cross check IRS filings with their own computerized lists of businesses. So some IT guy said, I'll bet I can spend 3 hours coding and 10 minutes computer time, and find lots of unregistered businesses."

    3. Re:Maybe she grossed much more than $50? by ErikZ · · Score: 1

      Because people who pay to put their ad banners on sites, tell the IRS that they put ad banners on sites. And how much it cost.

      Google does that for adwords.

      And since when does making a few buck off of a web banner make you a BUSINESS?

      --
      Democrats or Republicans. They are both taking us to the same place and they are not afraid of us anymore.
    4. Re:Maybe she grossed much more than $50? by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      No one said anything about making $20k blogging. The parent was talking about the blogger making $20k at her normal job (probably Starbuck's, or maybe cleaning toilets, or whatever she does). But with the City forcing her to treat her blogging as a "business", that means she can deduct ANYTHING that relates to that activity: internet access fees, a hefty home-office deduction, etc. She could generate a loss on paper that makes up for a substantial amount of her normal (non-blogging) income. The IRS wouldn't like that, however, which is why they have rules about what constitutes "business" activity and what constitutes "hobby" activity. But if the City is forcing her to treat it as a business, I don't see why should shouldn't be able to take advantage of all the IRS business-related deductions.

    5. Re:Maybe she grossed much more than $50? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The OP post did mean $20 from Blogging, read his reply to the GP

  28. Only a matter of time by Nick · · Score: 1

    Before King Daley brings this to Chicago. Maybe the bloggers can unionize and get sweetheart contracts with the city on the taxpayers dime instead.

    --
    Fuck Ajit Pai
  29. Re:So if you post on any forum you need to pay $30 by bickerdyke · · Score: 1

    and furthermore...... wouldn't an income of $50 and expenses of $300 + Servercosts result in a net loss that leads to a tax reduction?

    --
    bickerdyke
  30. They can't /make/ you get a business license by scorp1us · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The choice to incorporate is not one that the state can require you to do. It is a matter of liability. Anyone who has studied the history corporations know they are 100% about liability. If she wants to blog and generate income, then she does it with her personal liability on the line (for slander, etc)

    However, it is generally a good thing to incorporate. She will be able to deduct from her taxes in full or part, the cost of her internet connection, time blogging, etc as un-reimbursed business expenses. So she'll actually make out better because the corporation pays bills first, then pays taxes. Humans pay taxes first, then pay bills. Meaning that her company money will go farther than her personal money in paying for things. About every rich person I know has at least one fiction (a company) in their name. This means, the state will actually lose money. There is a small discrepancy when the cost of the business ($300) exceeds profits, but she can use the corporation for something else as well. She certainly doesn't live on $11/mo

    Standard caveats apply, IANAL, IANAA (accountant) , YMMV, etc. I do however have a corp.

    The ancient principle of the Anglo-Saxon common law, and Biblical law, is that everyone has a right to make a living at occupations of common right. So then, what is an occupation of common right? It is the right of all men in common to do any work that men might engage one another to do, and that does not exist as a result of some government act or establishment. Occupations of common right were some of those “inalienable rights” the writers of the Declaration of Independence had in mind. At least, that was the US supreme court’s opinion in Butchers Union v. Crescent City Co., 111 US 746:

    “The right to follow any of the common occupations of life is an inalienable right. It was formulated as such under the phrase “pursuit of happiness” in the Declaration of Independence which commenced with the fundamental proposition that “all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.”This right is a large ingredient in the civil liberty of the citizen.”

     

    --
    Slashdot's rate-of-post filter: Preventing you from posting too many great ideas at once.
    1. Re:They can't /make/ you get a business license by hipp5 · · Score: 1

      The choice to incorporate is not one that the state can require you to do.

      Who said anything about incorporation? Business license != incorporation. Lots of people run non-incorporated businesses and require a license to do so.

  31. A better way to screw the city ... by tomhudson · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Except this isn't about income tax - it's about a permit to operate a business within the city limits. The "business" operates on the server. Unless the server is hosted in the city, they can go p*ss up a rope.

    However, since she can prove she loses money, she should ask the city to exempt her from ALL municipal taxes, as she is obviously a non-profit.

    After all, she no longer has to prove that she runs a "business". The city has already stipulated that. The only question is, is it for profit or a non-profit. Since revenues will never exceed expenses, hello muni tax rebate!

    1. Re:A better way to screw the city ... by bem · · Score: 5, Insightful

      However, since she can prove she loses money, she should ask the city to exempt her from ALL municipal taxes, as she is obviously a non-profit.

      Being unprofitable is not the same as being a non-profit.

    2. Re:A better way to screw the city ... by Enry · · Score: 2, Informative

      Err no. (IANAAOL - I Am Not An Accountant Or Lawyer). Being a non-profit usually requires even more paperwork and associated fees.

      But even as a for-profit business she can deduct her business expenses (server time, the portion of rent/utilities dedicated to her home office, etc.). She wouldn't be able to deduct everything, and the amount she saves in taxes may or may not be less than the $300 she had to pay to get the license in the first place.

    3. Re:A better way to screw the city ... by tomhudson · · Score: 1
      Cost to register a non-profit organization ... $35

      Telling the city "gimme back my municipal taxes - and shove your $300 "blogging business fee" - priceless.

      When you need to fight dumb stupidity with smart stupidity, there's always slashdot!

    4. Re:A better way to screw the city ... by jeff4747 · · Score: 1

      The "business" operates on the server. Unless the server is hosted in the city, they can go p*ss up a rope.

      Pissing upwards while under said rope is rarely a good idea.

      Similarly, there's lots and lots of cases where judges have ruled that the location of the activity was where the humans were located, not the servers. These cases were enforcing our wonderful laws against porn and gambling. They were legal where the servers were located, but illegal where a human was accessing those servers.

    5. Re:A better way to screw the city ... by tomhudson · · Score: 1
      Try again - this has NOTHING TO DO WITH TAXES!!!

      And no, you can register a non-profit for $35 if you know what you're doing. She doesn't need non-profit status at either the fed or state level, so it's a lot easier.

      Case in point - I registered a non-profit, put my van into its name, and one day got a parking ticket for a protest we were doing. Got to court, the ticket was dismissed because ticketing a non-profit was a no-no :-)

      If you try it, it might work for you. But if you DON'T try it, you'll fail anyway, so ... what's to lose?.

    6. Re:A better way to screw the city ... by tomhudson · · Score: 1

      So send the bill back marked "OUT OF BUSINESS" - or give it a new forwarding address. Or do it under the auspices of a religious order - that last one works all the time. Or simply refuse to pay it based on the 1st Amendment. Sheesh, do I have to teach you people *everything?*

      There are at least a dozen ways to beat this illegitimate crap - (semi)-legitimately.

    7. Re:A better way to screw the city ... by Achromatic1978 · · Score: 1

      it's about a permit to operate a business within the city limits. The "business" operates on the server. Unless the server is hosted in the city, they can go p*ss up a rope.

      Yeah, uh, no.

      It's pretty well codified in law that this is absolutely not the case.

      I work, on a computer, in Olympia Washington. My employer is in Phoenix Arizona. As are their servers, where the work I do ends up.

      By your logic, there's no part of my employer's business in Washington state. You might want to tell them that, as they're fairly sure they get mail and forms and paperwork from WA fairly regularly, on everything from OSHA compliance to Workcover, liability insurance and the like.

      The 'output' of the business may be on a server somewhere else, but they (and this person here) certainly DO have a business presence in the state/city - it's called the employee.

      Whether or not the city should be /trying/ to do this is another matter altogether, but the vacuous arguments put forth by many here along the lines of 'but her web hosting server is elsewhere, therefore there's no business presence!' is borderline puerile.

    8. Re:A better way to screw the city ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Non-profits have all kinds of requirements that come into effect once you register, on both state and federal levels. Even trying to figure out what you have to do to be in compliance with them is a headache and a half. It is one of the clearest signs in this country that our legal code is all screwed up. It is FAR more than just paying a $35 fee and filling out one form.

    9. Re:A better way to screw the city ... by jeff4747 · · Score: 1

      Your examples have all been tried, and resulted in jail time for the people trying them.

    10. Re:A better way to screw the city ... by Enry · · Score: 1

      Uhm, didn't you bold this part in your previous comment:

      she should ask the city to exempt her from ALL municipal taxes, as she is obviously a non-profit.

      And she isn't a non-profit. Her business *may* be a non-profit if she fills out the correct forms. There's no way that she personally would be exempt from all municipal taxes.

      I work for a non-profit and while purchases my employer makes are tax-free, I still pay all the same income taxes that everyone else does.

    11. Re:A better way to screw the city ... by tomhudson · · Score: 1

      Not always. I did the "register an exempt org" thing a couple of decades back - never had to worry about parking tickets after that.

    12. Re:A better way to screw the city ... by tomhudson · · Score: 1

      FFS, this is NOT about INCOME TAX. Please, RTFA for once, or at least a few of the comments, before posting, mkay?

      This is about a "business privilege license" the city wants to charge. Non-profits don't pay it. Neither do religious orgs. She can get herself ordained as a Universal Church minister, and tell the city to shove off. It costs nothing, will work, and that will be then end of it.

    13. Re:A better way to screw the city ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, but losses outweighing gains do usually work towards exempting you from paying income tax.

      That doesn't mean there aren't other bits of paperwork and bills to pay though.

  32. Re:So if you post on any forum you need to pay $30 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Since US income taxes are limited to state and federal, I'm not sure how a municipality would enforce this.

    Where exactly do you live that you believe only state and federal collect income taxes? The city I live in and the city I work in both collect income taxes as well (thankfully, they have a reciprocal payment agreement, so I completely get back the money from the city I live in, because the city I work in has a higher tax rate); and this has been common in just about every city I've lived in across five states.

    Also, I keep an informal blog that isn't ad supported -- it costs me money to run. If I were a Philly resident, would I be expected to get a business licence for that?

    Just because everyone on this thread refuses to understand the article - and you even point out the problem with the artcle, why would you think you need a business license for a non-business? The entire article was about a person who claimed business income and was surprised to find out they needed a business license. The article is not about someone who wrote a blog and had to buy a license in order to blog; they had to buy the license in order to generate income (not in order to generate expense, like you are talking about).

    Let's change a few words around and see if it makes any difference. I compete in martial arts tournaments and I'm not ad supported -- it costs me money to buy equipment, take lessons, and pay for tournament fees. Should I have to purchase a business license for that? If course not, that's a hobby/recreational activity. Contrast that to: I compete in martial arts tournaments and I've got corporate sponsors who put ads on my uniform/equipment - I claim it as income on my taxes. Should I have to purchase a business license for that? Yes, in this case you would have to purchase a license, because you are running a business (you are performing a service and generating revenue).

    The big problem with this story is that it doesn't explain how the income was listed on the taxes. There are specific rules about where income needs to be placed on the tax form to be considered business versus non-business, and what additional forms and schedules are used for each activity. Using the Federal form as an example (I don't know PA tax), if you filed a 1040-MISC, used a Schedule C/C-EZ, E, or F, it is considered business income. The government doesn't particularly care how much you made (except if you consistently claim to lose money on a business, then they'll declare it a hobby which means you can't write off the expenses), only how it was made.

  33. Re:So if you post on any forum you need to pay $30 by Frank+T.+Lofaro+Jr. · · Score: 1

    Some larger cities also have an income tax. In the case of Philadelphia, they have something called a "wage tax", which they say is not an "income tax" - not sure exactly what the difference is.

    The IRS says wages are income.

    --
    Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
  34. Re:Sounds like philly needs to read the 1st amendm by canajin56 · · Score: 1

    I mowed my grandparent's lawn for some cash and a lemonade, does that mean I should have had a $300 business license, since my grandparents didn't have one (thus I'm not an employee)?

    --
    ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI
  35. rulz rulx rulz by AnAdventurer · · Score: 1
    If you have a brick and mortar business and you open your doors with a bank loan (pretending you can get one) or your life savings and you operate at a loss for the first year or two you still have to have a business license and pay wage taxes. Just because you are making a pittance doesn't mean your not operating a business.

    I say drop the adds and don't pay the fee.

    --
    6.8SPC TR of 550, l xwind at 6, drift rt at 26" drops 77". AT has 503 ft-lbs at 1403 fps. FT 0.86
  36. Re:do ALL 'journalists' have to pay the same? by thousandinone · · Score: 2, Insightful

    So politicians shouldn't make money then? Do you have any idea what the implication of that is?

    You may not realize it, but pretty much any political position involves a significant investment of time. However misguided or untrustworthy you consider their actions to be, it still represents a significant amount of time on their part.

    Enough that a full time job along side it isn't an option. So do you expect everyone who works in politics to work a part time job on the side to cover costs? Do you seriously believe that they would be able to earn a living wage doing this?

    No, fact of the matter is, if politicians weren't paid for their positions, it would just mean more bribery, best case. Worst case, the only ones able to actually maintain a political position would need to have a large corporation of some form backing them. We have enough bribery and corporate lobbying going on as is. Do you REALLY want to make it a requirement for all politicians? It's bad enough that so many do it ANYWAY.

  37. "Potential source of income"?! by Scutter · · Score: 1

    It would be one thing if Bess' website were, well, an actual business, or if the amount of money the city wanted didn't outpace her earnings six-fold. Sure, the city has its rules; and yes, cash-strapped cities can't very well ignore potential sources of income.

    If the "tax" is six times what her income was, then she's not a "potential source of income" for the city. She's a mark that can be shaken down and robbed of everything she's got. It's legalized thievery, not a "tax".

    --

    "Tell me doctor, with all of your defenses, are there any provisions for an attack by killer bees?"
    1. Re:"Potential source of income"?! by JesseMcDonald · · Score: 1

      It's legalized thievery, not a "tax".

      Methinks you misunderstand the meaning of "tax". It has never meant anything but "legalized thievery".

      --
      "The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
  38. Ugh by jav1231 · · Score: 1

    I agree with others, drop the ads. $50 isn't worth the hassle. Better yet, move! Screw Philly. I paid $63 for my license here in Georgia. There are better places to live and states that are more business friendly. Frankly, for $50 I wouldn't even report it as income. It's too small of an amount anyway and given that she probably spent more on her broadband writing it, it's far more than a wash.

    1. Re:Ugh by Jarik+C-Bol · · Score: 1

      its important to note that the 300$ fee is a 'lifetime' business license. an annual license costs 50$.

      --
      I've decided to Diversify my Holdings. I've divided my cash between my left and right pockets, instead of all in one.
  39. it's an unconstitutional law by hAckz0r · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

    If the law bars you (e.g. 'free exercise', as in freedom, not as in beer) from blogging then it it unconstitutional and is therefore null and void under the US Constitution Amendment 1. If your soap-box cost you money to stand on then it would be an illegal tax on the privilege of exercising your freedom to speak. Charging you a 'business tax' is the same thing, and this tax as described does not even take into account the fact that the equipment, services, electricity, etc, likely cost more than any advertising revenue taken in, so there is no profit to tax, only a free speech tax. Charging a 'business tax' on a personal exercise of the US Constitution should be illegal until such time that the individual' NET profits exceeds the taxable amounts allowed by law under the personal income tax regulations. If the taxable amount goes high enough then that individual should file quarterly taxes as any individual would be obligated. Under no circumstances should this individual be considered a business, until the applicable laws force them to do so, or become one. Of course with that said, liability insurance as a protected corporate entity might not be a bad idea in this day and age, and that would likely be a deductible expense.

    IANAL, so don't listen to me.

    1. Re:it's an unconstitutional law by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wonder if business licenses and taxes for newspapers are considered "abridging the freedom of the press."

    2. Re:it's an unconstitutional law by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      IANAL, so don't listen to me.

      Yep, you aren't a lawyer, and in this particular instance, you obviously haven't a clue as to what you are talking about.

      If the law bars you (e.g. 'free exercise', as in freedom, not as in beer) from blogging then it it unconstitutional

      There is no law barring anyone from blogging. There is a law that says if you are going to operate a business (if you are going to generate income) you need a business license. No one is telling her that she can't blog, or even that she needs to get a license to blog. They are saying if she is going to run a business and generate revenue, she needs a license. The fact that it is a blog in inconsequential to the requirement for a business license to operate a business. Would you suggest that anyone who publishes (speaks) can't be required to get a business license in order to operate their publishing house, simply because it is "speech"? That's not the way it works.

      If your soap-box cost you money to stand on then it would be an illegal tax on the privilege of exercising your freedom to speak.

      I have no idea what you even mean by this. I'm wondering, are you suggesting that requiring a newspaper publisher to pay property tax, or sales tax, should be considered unconstitutional because it costs money and would be an illegal tax? Of course, we're not even talking about taxes in this case, we're talking about a business license fee, which is something completely and totally different from a tax, anyway.

      this tax as described does not even take into account the fact that the equipment, services, electricity, etc, likely cost more than any advertising revenue taken in, so there is no profit to tax, only a free speech tax.

      Again, this isn't a tax, so profit doesn't come into account. In fact, there must have been a claimed profit to begin with, as the article states taxes were paid on the income.

      Charging a 'business tax' on a personal exercise of the US Constitution should be illegal until such time that the individual' NET profits exceeds the taxable amounts allowed by law under the personal income tax regulations.

      Do you realize how many companies regularly run a net LOSS, even if they have billions of dollars of revenue and billions of dollars of "cash from continuing operations" due to how accounting regulations work?

  40. There's a legit reason for the "business tax" by billrp · · Score: 1

    Aside from simply bringing money into the city's coffers, the business tax pays for city staff to keep track of businesses, so when someone calls the city hall to complain about a business, the city can find out exactly who this business is, where they are located, who are the principals responsible, etc. And to say that a business tax should only be paid by businesses making a profit - that's silly, since many businesses routinely don't show a profit and some years they make a profit. But nevertheless, the city needs to index these businesses. And free speech? So you say newspapers, book publishers, radio/tv stations should never pay any taxes???

    1. Re:There's a legit reason for the "business tax" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you work for a local government?

  41. States need common sense rules. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In the state where I live there are a number of common sense rules that PA seems to be unable to grasp.

    A business license is required if you perform any business activity with a GROSS REVENUE of over $1000. Under that it's not worth the paperwork, businesses generally pay sales tax (which you are never exempt from, if you sell something) and property tax. If you're making less than $1000 you probably have no property worth taxing, particularly at a tax rate of approximately $3 per thousand. There is no way this lady would need a business license here.

    But even if she did, a business license is $30. Why? It's really misnamed, it should be called "the fee you pay to register so we can send you tax forms". Once a quarter they send you a tax form where you have to list a number of things and return it for the cost of a stamp. If you don't pay any other tax (I had a dormant business which didn't) it's a mere $32 or so a year, plus about 5 minutes of your time, to keep a "legitimate, registered business" open. PA charging $300 just so they can send you tax forms is crazy.

    While it doesn't apply in this case, there's also another rule which is quite useful to cover garage sales and the like. It's called the "one time or unusual" sales rules. If you sell items less than 4 days per year you do not need a business license at all, and you get a one time exemption of $500 from sales tax. Have your garage sale and make $200, totally legal, no paperwork required. Come into town with a traveling show and sell your arts and crafts for a weekend and make a grand? No business license or other ongoing paperwork needed, but you need to fill out (the one page) sales tax form and remit your tax.

    Seriously, the government is going to spend more money going after this lady than they are ever going to get, succeed only at killing her hobby, and not improve the lives of the citizens. I realize we need to make sure everyone is paying their fair share, but part of that means having some reasonable bottom end limits below which it really doesn't make any sense to try and hunt these folks down.

  42. What Excuse Does Philly Offer by b4upoo · · Score: 1

    What excuse is there for Philly to be an economic waste land? If they can not manage their money why grind it out of the innocents' pockets? Does it not occur to anyone that many local governments need to be overthrown? Hell, the next county to me just built a 95 million dollar high school. They are insane. And you can bet that bribes of some sort were in play.

  43. Re:So if you post on any forum you need to pay $30 by rwv · · Score: 1

    Also, I keep an informal blog that isn't ad supported -- it costs me money to run. If I were a Philly resident, would I be expected to get a business licence for that?

    IANAL, but I don't think you'd be required to get a business license for your blog since you're not earning money. Hopefully the people you're paying for your hosting account have a business license, though!

    However, since you aren't a business, you won't qualify for any upcoming "Blogger Bailouts" to stimulate the Blogosphere after the upcoming Internet Opinion Recession begins.

  44. A question by Weaselmancer · · Score: 1

    She was honest and listed the blog. Now, she's basically being punished for being honest.

    Let's say you work as a waiter instead of a blogger. If you report accurately your tips and are taxed on them, are you being punished for being honest?

    This is nothing new folks. You tell Uncle Sam "I made X amount of money last year", and Uncle Sam will tax you on X. Surprise surprise.

    --
    Weaselmancer
    rediculous.
    1. Re:A question by canadian_right · · Score: 1

      RTFA

      She is being charged a flat $300 for a "privilege license", on top of any income tax. Being a flat fee that does not take into account how much, or little in this case, the business is making the fee is a punishment.

      --
      Anarchists never rule
    2. Re:A question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Now suppose two things:

      A) Uncle Sam demanded you pay X*6 for the privilege of being a waiter.
      B) You actually read the article.

    3. Re:A question by Weaselmancer · · Score: 1

      No, the fee is a fee. That's how they work. If you want to do something, and that something has a fee attached to it - you must pay the fee. Drive on a toll road? Pay a fee. It's not a punishment for using the road, it's a fee.

      If you don't like it, raise awareness. Circulate petitions. Petition your government. Vote.

      But until then, the law is what it is. There is a fee to operate a business in PA. There is nothing in the law that says "unless you don't make a lot of money." Sucks, but it is what it is.

      It isn't a punishment though. It is an impersonal law. That's all.

      --
      Weaselmancer
      rediculous.
    4. Re:A question by Wonko+the+Sane · · Score: 1

      The difference between paying a toll on a road and this is that you don't own the road. It's no different than buying something in the supermarket.

      A business license states by its very existence that you must obtain permission from someone else in order to exchange your own labor and property for another person's.

      The idea of a business license is completely incompatible with the idea of natural rights.

    5. Re:A question by jeff4747 · · Score: 1

      Like all regulations, business licenses arose because of people abusing the previous system. Someone would claim that they are running a business, selling _____. They'd take orders. They'd then skip town. Business licenses were created to tie a real-world individual to the transactions of the business, so there'd be somebody to track down if that business broke the law.

      Unfortunately, the anti-tax hysteria gripping the US for the last 3 decades has resulted in it being very difficult to raise taxes. Yet the public still demands services, which have to be paid for somehow. So municipalities raised their fees...because they were not called taxes and thus they escaped the anti-tax crusaders.

      Which leads us to today: Business licenses still serve their original purpose, and I don't think many people would actually object to that purpose. However, they cost way too much because the anti-tax crusaders aren't bright enough to consider a 'fee' to be a tax.

    6. Re:A question by Weaselmancer · · Score: 1

      Exactly. A fee is a tax. In my town - and I'm not kidding - panhandlers have to have a permit. Seriously. Uncle Sam knows they're not reporting income on 1040s, so they have to have an expensive permit instead. That's how they are taxed.

      If you see a cop in my town walk up to a panhandler, they'll reach into their shirt and yank out a plastic tag on a necklace. If they don't produce one they get a ticket.

      Uncle Sam WILL get money out of you, one way or another.

      --
      Weaselmancer
      rediculous.
    7. Re:A question by Khyber · · Score: 1

      "Unfortunately, the anti-tax hysteria gripping the US for the last 3 decades has resulted in it being very difficult to raise taxes."

      No, the fact that people see the politicians spending money on shit they shouldn't be is what is making it harder to raise taxes.

      I don't want my tax money going to pork-barrel projects or lining the coffers of corrupt politicians.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    8. Re:A question by jeff4747 · · Score: 1

      I don't want my tax money going to pork-barrel projects or lining the coffers of corrupt politicians.

      Nobody does, and it's pretty rare that it's actually pork-barrel. We only need to bring up the infamous "Volcano Monitoring" incident to point out it's only "pork-barrel" when it's not in your district.

      However, the public is quite fond of things such as pothole-free roads and bridges that don't collapse. Such things were falling into disrepair, thus requiring more funding.

  45. server location? by sixsixtysix · · Score: 1

    would the location of the server that the blog resides on have any bearing on this? if it is in another state, wouldn't that be like working in another state, so you'd have to go by its laws? maybe it would depend if she wrote it locally and uploaded it vs. writing it through some server-side app?

    --
    ...
  46. Re:So if you post on any forum you need to pay $30 by PseudonymousBraveguy · · Score: 1

    $300 for a business license is undoubly much too expensive, but even an unsuccessful business is a business.

  47. Re:So if you post on any forum you need to pay $30 by VGPowerlord · · Score: 0, Troll

    Since US income taxes are limited to state and federal

    Really? Where'd you hear that?

    I'm fairly sure the governor of the state I live in (Michigan) would have done something about the capital city (Lansing) charging city taxes by now if that were the case.

    --
    GLaDOS for President 2016! "Well here we are again. It's always such a pleasure." -- GLaDOS, 2011
  48. I just want to hear it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I just want you "the-law-is-the-law" types to say that asking 300$ for a business that makes 50$/2years is unreasonable.

  49. Re:So if you post on any forum you need to pay $30 by bws111 · · Score: 1

    Wage taxes are on income from employment (ie reported on a W-2). Income tax is on all sources of income, including wages, dividends, interest, capital gains, etc.

  50. Re:So if you post on any forum you need to pay $30 by DarkKnightRadick · · Score: 1

    So now any blog serving up ads is a business? What if you don't personally see any revenue from that? Is it still a business?

    No, this isn't a business. This is a hobby that pays (and even at that it only pays very, very little).

    --
    "There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death." Proverbs 16:25 (NKJV)
  51. Temporary setback by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If your $11 in reveneue is not enough to cover business licensing all you need to do is plaster ads all over your blog site until such time actual content is impossible to find. Once this occurs your next step is to turn the site into an online hidden objects game raking in an additional tree-fiddy in annual income.

    (Please note the lochness monster may also demand a cut of the proceeds)

    Seriously if you want to make money ask for donations. Its typically much easier to deal with from a tax perspective where "reasonable" limits for non-taxable income of this sort are on the books.

  52. Why do we link to blogs? by BobMcD · · Score: 1

    Why do we link to some dude's blog rather than to the actual story, which consequently is better in every way.

    I've seen this a LOT lately. Perhaps it is profitable to do so? And perhaps, perhaps such profits occur within a city that has laws about such?

  53. Re:Sounds like philly needs to read the 1st amendm by Jarik+C-Bol · · Score: 1

    probably.

    --
    I've decided to Diversify my Holdings. I've divided my cash between my left and right pockets, instead of all in one.
  54. Poorly written submission by shoehornjob · · Score: 1

    I didn't understand the point of Kurofuneparry's submission was since it contains little information. I actually had to click the link... wait for the damn page to load... and read the article. What has Slashdot come to when you can't even make wiseass remarks about an article without reading it first.

    --
    "We are just a war away from Amerikastan. When god vs god the undoing of man." Dave Mustaine
  55. Are you for real? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    She wasn't making any money until she hit the national news. Until that time, she was a kid who was probably hauling in $5/day an probably totaled $20.

    Don't take this the wrong way, but its this way of thinking that is the death of common sense. You always feel the need to control stuff "just in case". You feel like there needs to be a law or regulation when the right thing to do when you see a little kid selling lemonade is to either ignore it or pay a few cents for a cup.

    1. Re:Are you for real? by budgenator · · Score: 1

      ... or say "make sure you wash your hands often, sweetie" which covers 95% of the health department's concerns with a lemonade stand.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
  56. Don't bullshit if you don't know what's a business by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Have you ever sold a book on Amazon? Or a knick-knack on eBay? ... Have you ever sold a book on Amazon? Or a knick-knack on eBay?

    Maybe in your jurisdiction, but NOT in mine! In Canada, capital gains < $1000 for resold items do not need to be reported in your income tax. I can sell all the shit I have and it will all come out at a loss or marginal break-even, so NO income tax.

    And in Phyilly, no, I would not require a business license unless I operated a *business*. I would need to have an operation purposely built to turn a profit - eg. reselling books on Amazon, reselling crap on eBay. When you buy stuff for the sole purpose of reselling it, that is a business. When you buy stuff for your own or families consumption and usage, then selling it when you don't want it anymore, that is NOT a business.

    In any jurisdiction, a business is an operation that is setup to generate a *profit*. If there is no *goal* to generate a *profit* it is either a non-profit OR not a business. And no, she is not punished for being honest. She is not required to get a license. Either Philly has to *prove* she intends to turn a profit with her operation, or they can fuck themselves. What most likely happened is she wrote in her income as business income instead of commission or whatever non-business category you can select in the US.

  57. For those not paying attention.... by tacokill · · Score: 1

    So it's a fee, not a tax. Actually, it's a "business privilege" license. Whatever that is.

    Simple solution: quit calling your hobby a business and you won't have to pay the fee for being a business. Nobody is restricting what she can/can't do -- we are only restricting how she "categorizes" her activities for the purposes of accounting and tax preparation.

    If, on the other hand, she wants to make this into her business then she needs to pay the relevant taxes, fees, and licensing required to be "in business". If you don't like the taxes, fees, and requirements of being "in business" then use your vote to change things.

    I am not clear on what the issue is here. All business have this type of bullshit. Why is this one special? Oh wait, I'm not new here --- this must be Web 3.0.

    1. Re:For those not paying attention.... by djp928 · · Score: 1

      Why is it within the government's power to say "you can't make money unless you pay for a license to make money first"? Taxes are one thing--you pay a portion of what you make. Business license fees are just a naked cash grab, and you have to pay them whether you make a dime of income or not on your "business".

      All licensing fees like this do is help the big guy and punish the little guy. Erecting barriers to entry makes it so the little guy can't get into the market and compete with the established players. That just encourage the established players to sit on their hands and stop innovating or pleasing their customers, because hey--nobody is going to come along and take their market share away, because the government has helpfully erected barriers to prevent that.

    2. Re:For those not paying attention.... by sglewis100 · · Score: 1

      Business license fees are just a naked cash grab, and you have to pay them whether you make a dime of income or not on your "business". All licensing fees like this do is help the big guy and punish the little guy. Erecting barriers to entry makes it so the little guy can't get into the market and compete with the established players.

      So two things struck me here. The first, is that $300 is not necessarily a HUGE barrier to prevent the "little guy" from entering into the market. Although, it's certainly a lot more than I paid in my jurisdiction, but if you are going to launch a serious business and $300 makes or breaks you, perhaps there were other things to keep you from competing with the established players, like a like of working capital.

      The second thing is, business licenses can get revoked, as well. This can protect the REAL little guy, the guy whose not even in business, but an abused customer of a business. Is someone making $10 a month in Google Ad revenue writing a blog for fun really the same as a site the size of Slashdot, no, probably not - but this blogger doesn't have to operate as a business. Drop the ads, write for fun. Doesn't have to cost you a dime. I ran a blog for six months. Ramped up to an almost meaningless level of traffic, but still some 1000 people a day. Hosted it for free at Blogger. Cost me nothing except time to run. I actually did display ads, never really gave it much thought. Never collected a penny, either, but I think my Adwords balance is $10 or $15 now, I just never bothered giving them banking information to get paid. If I had kept it running, and been informed it was a business, I would have turned off the ads.

  58. Revenue negative taxation by SteveFoerster · · Score: 1

    HMRC knows this happens all the time, but it would cost them more to collect the small amount of tax due than they would get back

    Governments don't always have a problem with taxes that make them lose revenue in the long run. For example, only 7% of the U.S. federal budget comes from the U.S. corporate income tax. If it were abolished, the feds would make more from the increased revenue from personal income tax and payroll taxes from the more and better jobs that would return to the U.S. But it wouldn't be the populist thing to do, so we'll never see it. Oh well.

    --
    Space game using normal deck of cards: http://BattleCards.org
  59. And we only bombed our own city once, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    one time!

  60. Re:So if you post on any forum you need to pay $30 by PseudonymousBraveguy · · Score: 1

    I'm not familiar with the US definition of a business, but here, more or less everything that generates money is considered a business (at least in the field of taxes and related areas). (And the city of Philadelphia seems to share that definition)

  61. tax the money maker not the blogger by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ridiculous. Everyone knows that all the profits from online advertising goes directly to the advertisers... ie: Google, etc.

    The pennies (or less) they send on to the blogger who uses their ad system is minimal enough to be considered $0.

    Smarten-up Pennsylvania and specifically Philly...

    Tax the ad hosting companies who have the money... don't charge the labor working at sub-minimum wage for them.

  62. Simple solution by Todd+Knarr · · Score: 1

    Simple solution: don't report your income on federal Schedule C (or the state equivalent) when the amounts involved are that small. Just report it as miscellaneous personal income. Sure you won't be able to deduct expenses, but the amount's small enough it won't make much difference and you'll avoid the tax forms that flag you for inanity like this. If you do insist on reporting it on Schedule C, remember that the business license fee is an expense you can use on next year's forms.

  63. We are sources of income ... by Alain+Williams · · Score: 1

    Government is supposed to provide an environment in which citizens can flourish, in exchange for a reasonable amount of taxation. More and more government is looking at citizens as sources of money so that it can continue to run its offices, these are becoming ends in themselves. This is getting all the worse since governements agreed to repay the gambling debts of the banks.

  64. Being an (ex) blogger from Philly.... by xandercash · · Score: 5, Informative

    Being from Philly, I have had similar experiences. In my case, my website was registered to a Philly address, so they automatically sent out the "you must have a business license" letter. I was making no money. It's their number one automatic letter. My 3 year old daughter got one, once, even. (we're not sure how, in that case). All a person has to do is call the number on the letter and say "this isn't a business" and they'll put a check-mark in the "not a business" box. They don't care about the miniscule $50 every two months businesses. Just the profitable ones. This is why, when I lived in Philly, I always had a PO box or location outside the limits for business/website purposes. Mostly to avoid the hassle. The current township I live in is MUCH more reasonable, thankfully.

    1. Re:Being an (ex) blogger from Philly.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You kept an address outside the city just to avoid having to call them once a year to tell them you are not a business? Cough... bullshit... cough.

    2. Re:Being an (ex) blogger from Philly.... by xandercash · · Score: 1

      There's always the chance they'll put you on a list and stop believing you. And there's LOTS of hassles of owning a business/website in Philly. And working there. And living there. And buying stuff there. Which is why I'm not there, anymore.

  65. Control by rlp · · Score: 1

    Philadelphia already has a 3.9% city income tax. If you earn money as a blogger, you already pay part as a city income tax. It's not about income, it's about control. Governments don't like critics, particularly anonymous critics. This way, at least in Philly, if you're an anonymous blogger, you're breaking the law.

    --
    [Insert pithy quote here]
    1. Re:Control by russotto · · Score: 1

      Philadelphia already has a 3.9% city income tax. If you earn money as a blogger, you already pay part as a city income tax. It's not about income, it's about control. Governments don't like critics, particularly anonymous critics. This way, at least in Philly, if you're an anonymous blogger, you're breaking the law.

      Philadelphia also has a gross receipts tax on businesses. It doesn't matter if you're making money or losing it; they tax you on the gross. And you're not allowed to use Hollywood accounting.

  66. Short sighted by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

    The internet interprets taxation as damage and routes around it. What Philly is really saying is that if you want to contribute to toe 'net, you should move outside of city limits. Doesn't this type of attitude ultimately shrink their tax base, not grow it?

    --
    I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    1. Re:Short sighted by blair1q · · Score: 1

      Cost of moving: lots
      Cost of complying: little
      ROI of either: negative

      The only logical result will be that the bloggers will either stop trying to earn money from blogging, or will stop reporting it.

      Which is revenue-neutral to the city compared with the day before the city stated sending out license forms.

    2. Re:Short sighted by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

      Escaping a municipal totalitarian regime: priceless.
      You forget to take into consideration that fact that most decisions are not based on pure economic return, but rather on someone getting pissed off enough by something that it becomes the proverbial "last straw" that forces them to make a change. Those with the motivation to create something new will go elsewhere. Those that don't give a shit will remain and either quit blogging or do it under a pseudonym. Eventually asshole laws like this make criminals of us all.

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    3. Re:Short sighted by blair1q · · Score: 1

      If you think the county is any less totalitarian than the city, you haven't been to the county.

  67. Authors are businesses by default now? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So an author who intends to write a book and sell it who happens to live in Philly needs a business license?

    What about an inventor?

    Politician, they certainly intend to profit from their office...

  68. Why so high in Philly? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I live in Houston, and I paid $30 I think for a 10 year license.

  69. Philly: 1st amendment much? by walterbyrd · · Score: 1

    Taxing income, from whatever source, is fine. But having a special tax on a blog, just because it's a blog, seems to defy the 1st amendment.

    1. Re:Philly: 1st amendment much? by EmagGeek · · Score: 1

      walterbyrd: RTFA much?

      It is not a fee on blogs. It is requiring for-profit blogs to, you know, follow the law and obtain a business privilege tax to operate within the city.

  70. Will She Have to Give Dell Her SSN Also? by Maltheus · · Score: 1

    Now, if she gets a new computer to blog with (or anything costing $600 or more), she'll have to provide her social security number so that Dell (or whomever) can properly file their 1099s on her (starting Jan. 1, 2012). Welcome to the world of small business sweetheart.

  71. Re:do ALL 'journalists' have to pay the same? by sls1j · · Score: 1
    Though in general I agree with you that full-time politicians should by paid, so that poor but intelligent, and moral people could serve as a public servant. However, I wouldn't say that no-one could serve. Our first president, George Washington, refused any payment for his 8 years of service.

    I think a middle ground would be better. The pay should be low though, like maybe the average pay for an American. Then they might want to make conditions that raise the average American

    Somewhere I've seen a study that correlated corruption in a state government to the amount it's representatives, so the higher the pay, the higher the corruption. Of course I have no idea how they quantified the corruption in the given state's governments.

  72. Re:do ALL 'journalists' have to pay the same? by thousandinone · · Score: 1

    I hate to use a cliche, but it was a different time back in George Washington's day. Washington also had fairly large, lucrative property holdings- tobacco is a lucrative industry today, and in his time the industry wasn't taxed at anywhere close to modern levels.

    His co-ownership of something over 10,000 acres of tobacco plantation is basically equivalent to being a majority stockholder in %MAJORCORPORATION% today ANYWAY. Which isn't to say that this was a bad thing at the time, but he wasn't exactly hurting for the cash for his presidency either...

  73. Re:So if you post on any forum you need to pay $30 by SPCagigas · · Score: 1

    GM posted quarterly losses for over two years. Ditto Chrysler. Ditto Ford (though a little farther back than GM and Chrysler's current bankruptcy issues). Every year -- every day, even, companies lose money. That does not let them stop complying with local, state, and federal laws.

    Unfortunately, this particular law doesn't seem to be as clear as others...

  74. Re:So if you post on any forum you need to pay $30 by dacut · · Score: 1

    Since US income taxes are limited to state and federal, I'm not sure how a municipality would enforce this.

    By not making up arbitrary rules like limiting taxes to state and federal levels. Philadelphia imposes this on the employer, so it's invisible to the employees; but if you live in Pittsburgh, for example, you're filling out three forms: the IRS 1040, a PA-40, and a PGH-40.

    (I've thankfully moved to a state which doesn't have income tax...)

  75. Garage Sales by ohiovr · · Score: 1

    Are garage sales deemed a business too? How about selling your car? Will Philly get a cut if you trade your pb&j sandwich for a nutty bar at school?

  76. Re:So if you post on any forum you need to pay $30 by DarkKnightRadick · · Score: 1

    She wasn't blogging as her main source of income! That's the whole entire point that people seem to be missing! Paying or not paying taxes isn't at issue here!

    From TFA:

    Between her blog and infrequent contributions to ehow.com, over the last few years she says she’s made about $50. To [Marilyn] Bess, her website is a hobby.

    It's a HOBBY. She isn't trying to make a business at of this. The intent in this case is VERY important.

    --
    "There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death." Proverbs 16:25 (NKJV)
  77. Re:So if you post on any forum you need to pay $30 by DarkKnightRadick · · Score: 1

    The city of Philadelphia can share that view all they want. It's more important what the state of Pennsylvania has to say about this (as municipal law never over-rides that of state law, just like state law cannot pre-empt federal law).

    As one poster said, NJ legally defines what is and isn't a business (they have a limit on income for a "hobby that makes money" and a "business that needs a license"). I'm not sure what Pennsylvania's law is, but this woman needs to find out fast.

    --
    "There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death." Proverbs 16:25 (NKJV)
  78. censorship by Dan541 · · Score: 1

    This is just Censorship by finance. "Pay us or you don't have the right to speak"

    --
    An SQL query goes to a bar, walks up to a table and asks, "Mind if I join you?"
  79. Free enterprise? by Bombur · · Score: 1

    Where is the free enterprise on which the country is always said to be built, now?