Slashdot Mirror
Emulation Arrives On the PS3
YokimaSun writes "Following the recent exploit that allows you to jailbreak your PS3, the homebrew community have now breached the console with the first homebrew game, which is the classic Pong. Also released is the first emulator for the system in the shape of a SNES Emulator great for those 16-bit games. Finally drk||Raziel, the coder of the Dreamcast Emulator NullDC, has posted screenshots of his Dreamcast emulator working on the PS3 (albeit at a very early stage). The PS3 is building up to be the Dream Console for emulation."
I am absolutely certain that Sony's upper management is absolutely thrilled at yet another demonstration of their brainchild's incredible versatility.
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
Sony, in their infinite wisdom, didn't create PS3's that can read PS2 game discs.
Wouldn't it be funny if, in order to play your favorite PS2 games on your PS3, you have to first rip your PS2 disks?
Wouldn't it be funny if, in order to play your favorite PS2 games on your PS3, you have to first rip your PS2 disks?
I'd call it "poetic justice."
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
Can't wait to see Wii emulation.
With the PS3 power + Bluetooth support you could end up replacing the wii completely while still maintaining compatibility with wiimotes and accessories.... and with HD support!!
I'd sell my wii to get a PS3 if that was the case, but I know it will take ages until a wii emu is in such a usable state.
...that Microsoft's Xbox 360 *still* has not been exploited? PS3 has had a number of exploits over the years, but Xbox 360 is still locked down tight. Too bad desktop Windows still has remote code execution vulnerabilities discovered every month...
Probably an economic issue. Microsoft (and Sony, for that matter) doesn't make money from console hardware sales ... they need game sales to make a profit. So there's a clear incentive to make the Xbox hard to crack. Perhaps Microsoft is just better at that than Sony.
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
...that Microsoft's Xbox 360 *still* has not been exploited? PS3 has had a number of exploits over the years, but Xbox 360 is still locked down tight. Too bad desktop Windows still has remote code execution vulnerabilities discovered every month...
They had hypervisor privileges years ago, it's just that it was a pain to implement. http://www.securityfocus.com/archive/1/461489
"Sony, in their infinite wisdom, didn't create PS3's that can read PS2 game discs." Well they did for a short time, until they realized that people actually liked being able to play their old games and new ones on the same system. Then they stopped making them capable with PS2 games.
Only an extremely small subset of PS3s actually can play PS2 games out of the box. Even fewer don't entirely depend on poor software emulation to do it.
I would think that the ability to run linux *again* might be of more interest here on /.
Having to crack a console to get functionality back sounds like a joke but I suspect few are laughing.
To get back to the topic at hand, given John Carmac's view of the PS3 architecture, it's likely that porting emulators for the more modern consoles (i.e., those that require 3D accelleration) may be a lot more trouble than it was for, say, the original Xbox.
John: I never liked the Cell architecture. You can get high peak numbers out of it, but software development time matters a lot, and not having caches and virtual memory makes development take a lot longer, especially for the majority of applications that don't fit neatly into the DMA pipeline model.
From http://www.tomshardware.com/news/ps3-playstation-3-linux-john-carmack,10035.html
"Sony, in their infinite wisdom, didn't create PS3's that can read PS2 game discs." Well they did for a short time, until they realized that people actually liked being able to play their old games and new ones on the same system. Then they stopped making them capable with PS2 games.
One reason I don't like Sony (one of many.) Unfortunately, Nintendo and Microsoft are also on my shit list, which makes it hard to make a decision.
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
I know this will sound cliché
but does it run Linux?
(I'd genuinely like to know)
there's also been some rumors that it's been cracked / adapted for 3.42
but I'm not sure if it's fake based on the youtube clips I've seen so far
I CAN HAS XBMC FOR THE PS3?
...that Microsoft's Xbox 360 *still* has not been exploited? PS3 has had a number of exploits over the years, but Xbox 360 is still locked down tight. Too bad desktop Windows still has remote code execution vulnerabilities discovered every month...
Probably an economic issue. Microsoft (and Sony, for that matter) doesn't make money from console hardware sales ... they need game sales to make a profit. So there's a clear incentive to make the Xbox hard to crack. Perhaps Microsoft is just better at that than Sony.
Have either of you actually played a video game before? Where do you get your intel from?
The 360 was the first to have a hypervisor exploit: http://www.xbox-scene.com/xbox1data/sep/EEZkykVkkFmojzapEq.php
The 360 was the first to allow playing burnt games: http://digg.com/news/technology/Modded_Xbox_360_Plays_Burned_Games
The 360 was the first to have homebrew: http://beta.ivancover.com/wiki/index.php/Xbox_360_King_Kong_Shader_Exploit
The first generation played PS2 disks perfectly, the second quite well and subsequent generations not at all. Though honestly, since there are now some very good PS3 titles at cheap prices, it becomes less and less relevant, this is Sony's thinking also I believe.
I have a backwards compatible PS3 and I think I last put a PS2 disk in there maybe two years ago, the scope of the current generation just allows for so much more in a game and my sense of nostalgia is not strong enough to persuade me to turn back. This may be a great place for the homebrew community to shine since frankly I think Sony's engineering efforts would be better spent elsewhere.
When Argumentum ad Hominem falls short, try Argumentum ad Matrem
Sony, in their infinite wisdom, didn't create PS3's that can read PS2 game discs.
My PS3 reads and plays PS2 games quite well, actually: 60 GB PS3
The original 20 GB units would play PS2 games also.
Where do you get your intel from?
Slashdot, of course. So why should we believe you?
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
Ummm ... wiibrew.org?
There are hundreds of pieces of Wii homebrew. And not all emulators either!
Because he provided citation links. You can of course not believe them...
True, but those exploits don't matter if the system is secure enough to protect itself from those exploits.
As a result, exploits only work in older models and you can't update the console. i.e. it hasn't been fully compromised in that sense.
The PS3 is also supposed to be secure against those kinds of exploits but unlike with the 360 its probably a matter of time until we see "custom firmwares" or a way of upgrading to the latest system version while keeping your homebrew capabilities intact. (which is what you can do with other systems like the wii)
So you see, the xbox 360 had hypervisor exploits *years* ago but noone has really managed to let you upgrade while keeping your console exploited. Which results in a still secured system.
(Plus, you can't go to the store and run homebrew on it)
The PS2 is a bitch to emulate because its processor and video processor are so strange. It doesn't even work all that great on high end modern PCs. Emulation incurs heavy overhead anyhow, but the more different the platforms, the harder it is. That's why PC on PC virtualization is so fast. You literally "virtualize" as in run most things natively, so you achieve high speeds.
Now maybe the Cell happens to be well designed for emulation the EE and VUs, but I kinda doubt it. If it were easy to do, I'd have thought Sony would do it to increase compatibility and keep people happy. Also the Cell's power seems to be in parallel processing and that is something that emulation doesn't do much of. I don't know that it couldn't, but it doesn't. Emulators are largely single thread, with maybe a second thread for some video rendering. PCSX2, the PS2 emulator, does use two threads well but that is it. Generally speaking, emulation coding seems to lag behind regular coding. Emulator authors seem to be good at emulation but not so good at current coding practices.
So my guess is probably not. It is just too powerful, and too odd, of a system to emulate on the PS3. You need a heavier hitting processor to do it, something like an i7.
CECHA, CECHB, CECHC and CECHE models all have PS2 emulation, and even in the CECHE the emulation is partly hardware based. They were still selling CECHE's in summer of 2008. my CECHE has played every PS2 game I've put in it, and the number of games that have had problems on it is small.
Already blocked by a new firmware update.
So we're still stuck with the choice of running either PS3 games or homebrew, but not both.
There are already emulators for the 360, and have been for some time. The 360 also has the advantage of being a more computer-like architecture and thus taking less effort to make an efficient emu port.
However really, if emulation is your thing, a cheap media PC/netbook is the way to go. For anything that is, say, Playstation 1 or older, you need very little hardware to emulate it. Current PCs are plenty fast enough, even at the low end. Also, there are tons of emulators that are out and available and well developed. So to me, that seems to be the "dream system." If you have a media PC, just load up the emulators on it.
I don't see anything about the PS3 that makes it particularly suited to emulation as opposed to the 360.
Sony makes money on the consoles as well now... strange that the exploits suddenly appear just as they start making money on the hardware... Now people like me are buying another one, just to have one exploited, and one unexploited - just in case!
This is blinging
Sony, in their infinite wisdom, didn't create PS3's that can read PS2 game discs.
Sony decided that full or partial hardware support for PS2 games was inflating the cost and complexity of the PS3.
The PS2 "Slim" - which also ditched the "OtherOS" and full PS2 compatibility - is still in production and still available from American outlets like Amazon.com for around $100.
Wait until PS3 emulates 360! ;o)
This is blinging
A 100% software emulator to run PS2 software on the PS3 is entirely possible. The Xbox 1 is a much more powerful system than the PS2, and the Xbox 360 (which is inferior to the PS3) can emulate it perfectly, all in software. So it's only a matter of time before a PS2 emulator appears on the PS3.
The funny thing about this is Sony has recently patented a hardware PS2 addon for the PS3.. if/when the homebrew scene releases a PS2 emulator, Sony is going to look very stupid....and greedy to almost every PS3 owner in the world!
http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=264597
-Copyright law #69:Whenever Mickey Mouse is about to enter the public domain,copyrights get extended by 25 years.
That's because the Xbox 360 is more secure than the PS3. The 360 was attacked first because the PS3 had OtherOS, but now we're finding out that the PS3's native OS is a lot less secure than previously thought.
In particular, the 360's hypervisor model is a lot better, and they have hardware memory signing and encryption for the hypervisor and executable code. The only reason the PSJailbreak works is because the PS3 doesn't implement W^X at all inside lv2 (!), and it has nothing resembling memory encryption or signing. Its only really redeeming security feature is the secure SPE, but that does nothing to prevent you from owning the rest of the system and using it as a crypto oracle.
Meh. I can't play the modern games, because the 3D moving thing gives me a headache. But I love retro games like Robotron, Joust, Centipede, etc. No, I wouldn't buy a console just for those, but I bought my daughter a PS3 and I'd like to be able to play all those arcade classics they've released over the years for the PS1 and PS2. My daughter has Assassin's Creed II, which looks awesome, but it's not my cup of tea. I get a headache even watching for more than 10 minutes, and anyhoo I don't really like the storyline games. So the lack of old games essentially means that I'm stuck with Tekken and... that's about it. I'm not claiming that retrogrouches represent a significant market, but we do exist.
Nope. Total control over the machine is what matters most to MS and Sony. Piracy may even have helped sales, every year everyone that gets banned buys a new console.. but Microsoft makes billions of dollars with very little production costs with Live. If everyone's machine was JTAG'd, M$ would really be pissed.
Notice how the JTAG exploit was patched before it was released, by blowing efuses. Meanwhile every single version of the 360's optical drives has been hacked to play backups.. even the slim / s / 250. If Microsoft wanted to stop that, they could have paid $3 more for the DVD mobo's to have non-writable firmware... stopping the piracy instantly.
Control over the core system is what matters. Once that is lost, hackers can do anything they want, and that is what scares MS and Sony the most.
-Copyright law #69:Whenever Mickey Mouse is about to enter the public domain,copyrights get extended by 25 years.
So, all those people who have hacked their 360's to play backups and even put DLC on the drive... Don't actually exist?
"If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
Which is why the quietly removed support and didn't bother to actually advertise it on their boxes?
That would be true anywhere else, but remember that nobody will RTFA ;P
Sorry, but no. The reason why they put the protection in place is to prevent piracy and the playing of unauthorized games. They really and truly don't care about total control beyond that.
What's interesting about the first generation models as well is that they actually have a full PS2 inside them. When the wireless DualShock controllers came out originally, I got one from Japan 6 months early and the rumble feature worked with every PS2 game. The first gen also works with USB to PS2 adaptors(Guitar Hero and so on). The original two machines also as a result can play PS1 games. The latter software emulation PS2 models work 50% for PS1 and 75% for PS2.
It's a shame that they don't support it any more, because PS2 titles are plentiful and cheap. And often better than the PS3 in game-play.
But back to the topic. I can understand emulation, but the question is WHY. Why turn a $300+ top-end gaming console into a $20 garage-sale relic from 15 years ago?
I don't know what all this Ceche crap is, but my full size PS3 can't even read a PS2 disc, which is a load of crap.
If I'd known that before I bought it, I wouldn't have shelled out $300. PS3's are getting to be more and more of a rip off as time goes on. It's ridiculous and indefensible.
When you're afraid to download music illegally in your own home, then the terrorists have won!
So, all those people who have hacked their 360's to play backups and even put DLC on the drive... Don't actually exist?
Of course not, Citizen. They're entirely imaginary.
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
It sure looks like Sony's ripping the Linux option out of the PS3 is what finally coaxed crackers to jailbreak the resulting PS3. For years while hackers had Linux to play around with, even though it was crippled (low RAM, GPU lockout, so all processing including display on the PPC/512MB), there were no jailbreaks. Then no Linux, and a few months later a jailbreak. It really makes Sony's original "give 'em Linux" strategy look like it worked better to protect the console than any DRM or other lockout has for any other platform.
So maybe Sony can "return to Eden". Sony could reinstate Linux as an option on PS3. Probably they'd have to up the ante, unlocking either the VRAM or the entire GPU, to attract developers back to legitimate "PS3 hacking". Which could drain down the developer pool away from more cracking that actually does compete with Sony games. The current hack would be out of the bag, and it would have some momentum for a while, but Sony could throw a bone that would slow that momentum possibly to stagnation.
Meanwhile, does this HW hack let even new PS3s without the "OtherOS" option boot Linux anyway, as if it were a game, off the DVD/Blu-Ray? Does that let a bootable Linux get access to the VRAM and/or GPU? Because if it does, then even people who just want to hack Linux will be lending momentum to the same hack that enables pirating games.
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make install -not war
You did know that the different models of PS3's have different capabilites/hardware and are identified by their model numbers? A la CECHA, CECHEB, and so forth?
For example, mine is a CECHE01 MGS4 model, which means: North American Deluxe model PS3 (with the chrome trim), built in card reader, 4 USB ports, backwards compatible with PS2 games using a combination hardware and software solution, SACD support, built in wifi, bundled with Dual Shock 3 and Metal Gear Solid 4, released on June 12 of 2008.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_3#Model_comparison
Says right on the back of the box whether it was or wasn't, can't miss it. Also it's been in all the gaming press that SCEfoo stopped making backwards compatible PS3's when the Slim PS3 became the standard model.
It's a shame that they don't support it any more, because PS2 titles are plentiful and cheap. And often better than the PS3 in game-play.
It's a shame, perhaps, but good for business. People have "x" minutes per unit time to spend playing games, and they'd rather you be playing a current release so you can get tired of it and buy the next big thing.
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
Already blocked by a new firmware update.
So we're still stuck with the choice of running either PS3 games or homebrew, but not both.
Likewise, PSP games require the latest firmware available at release time, and of course using the playstation network on a PSP always does. This poses no problem to those who run homebrew apps and the latest games on the same PSP as the newest firmware is invariably fixed by the community.
As the community's PS3 knowledge develops, we may see unfucked versions of the latest firmware so that games could be played online without any workarounds such as loaders.
It occurs to me that "Pong" is the "Hello World" of homebrew.
Awesome work folks. The Wii Brew scene is waiting for you to catch up, and the bar is set pretty high. I fully expect the PS 3 to meet that, and exceed it.
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Toro
The PS3 is building up to be the Dream Console for emulation.
I softmodded my wii, it took about 10 minutes. It lets me run emulators for N64, SNES, NES, Genesis, NeoGeo, PS1, NDS, DOS, GBA, ScummVM, and more. I haven't seen any dreamcast emulators, but if it can run PSX games, dreamcast shouldn't be outside the realm of possibility. So other than running PS2 games instead of gamecube ones, I don't see why you would consider the PS3 a "dream console" for emulation when the wii can already do what the PS3 hopes to accomplish.
Where do you get your facts from? Afaik JBed PS3-s run in "debug mode".
All PS3 comm is encryped/signed, including the drive.
Go look at PCSX2. All the video processing is done by your GPU, and thus you do get things like better resolution than the PS2 and so on. They make extensive use of HEL tricks, dynamic recompilation and so on. However for all that it is still slow. Also please remember the more tricks, the more problems. UltraHLE was neat but ran all of about 8 games.
There was also a big advantage emulating the processor: It was a very simple design. At its heart, it was just a MIPS R4300i. A well documented processor, with a simple instruction set. Also, few games made use of its 64-bit capabilities so pretending it wasn't was not a big deal for emulators.
The Emotion Engine? Much stranger. MIPS based, but all sorts of additional instructions, many not well documented by Sony. Heavily uses 64-bit (integer and floating point) and has 128-bit FP capability too. In particular the real problem happens with the VU0 and VU1 units, which are 128-bit vector units. The sort of stuff they do would normally be on the GPU in a computer, but it is on the CPU in the PS2.
At any rate, it is a difficult system to emulate, at least for the people trying to do so. If you think you could do a better job, it would be wonderful if you took a swing at it. I do get the feeling from what I've seen that many of the emulation programs aren't the best and brightest at programming overall, they just like emulation.
However as it stands, the very best PS2 emulator out there requires a heavy hitting system to make possible. You need a good CPU, good video card, and even then it can be slow and buggy.
did you mean the ps2 slim dropped full ps1 compat?
It's not turning the $300 console into a $20 relic. It's turning the $300 console into the $300 console plus the $20 relic (net gain of $20 of value, plus the value of the legacy games, and the enjoyment of being able to play good old gameplay games if you so choose as well as all the new flashy games).
Should have done your homework before you went out and bought it, or at least asked about it.
The original, japanese run had the full set of PS2 hardware built-in, and didn't so much emulate as switch systems. Then came a nice series for US and EU, that has software emulation. That emulation is not perfect, but pretty good; and we still play ps2 games from time to time.
Only about the time the slims were starting to get mentioned, iirc, did the PS2 emulation also vanish. Do your homework and have a look on ebay for the right model, then sell your newer one. I seem to recall Wikipedia having a quite exhaustive list of all the models.
What a depressingly stupid machine.
I dont know about what it was in America, but here in the UK, it WAS advertisied very strongly, on the box, and in the description and when I went to purchase it, the attendant made it VERY clear that it cannot play PS2 discs.
Personally, I prefered that, as it cut the power usage of the product down by removing those chips, that meant little for me.
Have a nice day!
"The latter software emulation PS2 models work 50% for PS1"
Citation Needed with regards to the 50% PS one support, as what you have said seems to differ to real world experiences. You may be correct with regard to the PS2 figures.
PS1 emulation is still available in ALL PS3s, and has always been software emulation done on the CELL, and not via hardware.
PS1 emulation was always very good, and improving, and if you are having problems, maybe you should file a report with Sony?
Have a nice day!
I agree with you that for emulation a computer is by far the best method available. It's not a big deal having it on a particular console. I don't see wanting to use my PS3 OR Xbox 360 for emulation anyway... The only consoles I really care to emulate are classic consoles. My Wii does that just fine. Both with Virtual Console and from the Homebrew channel. On top of that, My EVO 4G even emulates everything up to PSX and supports bluetooth controllers as well. Why bother with Xbox 360 emulation when my phone does better?
But... as to why the 360 is better suited...
Reason 1:
Installing homebrew or an emulator on a 360 requires soldering a mod chip to the board. If I remember correctly, it wasn't nearly as simple of a mod chip as the WiiKey was on the Wii either.
Reason 2:
Xbox 360 uses a propritrey controller. PS3 uses Bluetooth.
Except you lose the ability to play online games due to Sony's changes to the OS in recent patches. Is that a net gain?
would it not have been possible to manufacture both types of systems? then those who are completely new to PS could buy a cheaper PS3, while those vested in PS2 games could pay the extra $__ to have only one PS in their living room.