Verizon, 4G and iPhones

The missing piece by Midnight+Thunder · 2010-10-07 03:33 · Score: 3, Informative

In many way this is what will allow Verizon to get the iPhone. When the iPhone 5 comes out it is bound to support 4G, so even if Verizon is not an official partner, people will be able to use the phone there.

I have never been convinced that Apple would want to add CDMA capability, just for Verizon, because of the extra licensing costs and the fact Verizon had already announced that it was putting in place a 4G GSM network. I may still be wrong about Qualcomm-CDMA support being added (CDMA is part of GSM in the form of wave encoding, not protocol), though we will see.

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Re:The missing piece by UnknowingFool · 2010-10-07 03:45 · Score: 2, Informative

No the missing piece that everyone conveniently forgets is AT&T. They have a deal with Apple that makes the iPhone exclusive to them until 2012. Until that deal is canceled or altered, there is no chance Verizon will get an iPhone in 2011. Even Verizon says that any Verizon iPhone announcement will come from Apple not from them.
Before anyone quips about how they heard it on the internet about the Verizon iPhone 2011 from a reliable source, I suggest that they trace back to the original source of the information. Almost always the source is an "analyst" not connected to Verizon, Apple, or AT&T. Most often, the source is an analyst whose livelihood relies on people paying attention to their predictions. I think it's just another example of if something is repeated enough times, people believe it's a fact. Ever since the original iPhone in 2007, there has been a rumor that there will be a Verizon iPhone next year. The year comes and goes and it gets repeated again.

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Re:The missing piece by Altus · 2010-10-07 03:56 · Score: 3, Insightful

Is it really worth it to buy an unlocked phone though? As it is you get a big discount on a new phone in exchange for your contract. I am not aware of any provider that gives you a monthly discount in exchange for not taking advantage of that discount. If you know of one I would be very interested.
I think that is what would have to change because as it is, having no contract isn't that much of an advantage, assuming you know you will want to have a phone for the next 2 years and getting a deep discount on a new phone is very attractive.

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"In America, first you get the sugar, then you get the power, then you get the women..." -H. Simpson
Re:The missing piece by Swanktastic · 2010-10-07 04:05 · Score: 2, Interesting

As far as I can tell, this assertion is speculation as well. According to court filings, it appears Apple and AT&T signed a 5 year exclusivity contract in 2007 as the iPhone was launching. It was not clear at all at the time how popular the iPhone would become. There's no reason to believe the contract has remained intact for 4 years. That's eons for consumer electronics contracts. It's much more likely that exclusivity, margins, etc. were all renegotiated as each side learned more about how the iPhone was performing in the market.
Re:The missing piece by UnknowingFool · 2010-10-07 04:08 · Score: 2, Informative

Google is your friend:
"at&t iphone exclusivity"
It was reported back in May 2010 by engadget, mashable, and CNN for starters. The deal was disclosed in relation to a class-action lawsuit about Apple monopoly power and illegal tying.

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Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
Re:The missing piece by tomz16 · 2010-10-07 04:13 · Score: 2, Insightful

In many way this is what will allow Verizon to get the iPhone. When the iPhone 5 comes out it is bound to support 4G, so even if Verizon is not an official partner, people will be able to use the phone there.
Don't be so sure. IIRC, verizon is using the sim-less variant of LTE. So if the MEID isn't in the database the phone isn't getting on the network without committing a felony! The mere existence of a CDMA iphone doesn't mean that it will be easy to get on Verizon.

I have never been convinced that Apple would want to add CDMA capability, just for Verizon, because of the extra licensing costs and the fact Verizon had already announced that it was putting in place a 4G GSM network. I may still be wrong about Qualcomm-CDMA support being added (CDMA is part of GSM in the form of wave encoding, not protocol), though we will see.
Again, don't be so sure. A CDMA-less verizon phone is pretty much a paperweight for the forseeable decade. LTE rollout will be *very* limited initially (mostly large markets). Also, to correct you, GSM is TDMA. Modern 3G GSM data (e.g. HSDPA) is CDMA.

Re:Question by Pojut · 2010-10-07 03:34 · Score: 2, Insightful

From what I understand, V-Cast has been a major point of contention between Apple and Verizon. At least, that's what the rumors are saying...

That being said, I don't know why Verizon pushes their V-Cast services so hard...out of all the people I know that use Verizon, I don't know anyone that actually uses anything V-Cast has to offer.

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Living With a Nerd

Re:Question by blueg3 · 2010-10-07 03:36 · Score: 2, Informative

Well, they don't make you use V-cast or Bing on Android phones, and they let you use the Marketplace.

At least, this is true for 2 Verizon Android phones, which is how many I have experience with.

too little too late by SoupGuru · 2010-10-07 03:37 · Score: 4, Interesting

Tons of people got tired of waiting for the iPhone on Verizon and had to settle for an Android phone only figure out, "Hey, this Android stuff is actually pretty cool!" and now have no desire for an iPhone. So Apple might get more of the currently-smartphoneless-on-Verizon demographic when their contracts allow them to upgrade, but I think they've lost every single one that's bought into Android up to this point.

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What doesn't kill you only delays the inevitable

Re:too little too late by Darkness404 · 2010-10-07 03:47 · Score: 2, Insightful

Sure, but touch-screen devices suck for gaming no matter what you are running on them. Granted, tethering a Bluetooth controller like a Wii-Remote with a Classic Controller attached makes gaming downright awesome on both platforms.

And quite honestly, I'd rather play a good retro game than play any more of the iPhone's half-baked "games".

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Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
Re:too little too late by jellomizer · 2010-10-07 05:02 · Score: 2, Insightful

They are both emerging markets. You are making the assumption that the market is already saturated.
Just like at AT&T you will get iPhone customers and Android Customers there will be new users on both. Some will be unhappy with each other and switch.
There is no point in this religious zeal over iPhone vs. Android. And what will ultimately happen. iPhone will be the biggest in Market share for devices, Android will be the largest market share in total numbers. Meaning the iPhone will be the Top Selling Phone but there will be more Android installations.
The Android is cool and is competitive to the iPhone which is cool in different ways. People will stick to their camp. New users will choose one or the other. A few swappers who will be evangelicalized to the other side. Side A will make a cool app Side B will make a copy. Side A will say how horrible the trade offs that B took is while Side B does the same.
Is iPhone for Verizon a threat to Android, perhaps in a short run. As there are some people who use Android as a substitute for an iPhone, but after a quarter or two, it will balance and be back to normal competition.
Normal Competition will mean both sides makes new and cool stuff to play with.

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If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.

Nothing? by geoffrobinson · 2010-10-07 03:42 · Score: 4, Insightful

"If I wanted an iPhone, I would have gotten one."

I, I, I.

How something impacts Android is completely dependent on how it would affect you? There may be a few people out there who decided to go with Android because they didn't want to switch to AT&T.

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Except for ending slavery, the Nazis, communism, & securing American independence, war has never solved anything.

Re:Nothing? by MozeeToby · 2010-10-07 03:51 · Score: 2, Insightful

Android is the fastest selling smartphone OS, there are any number of Android options and lots of people who talk up Androids to their friends and families (myself included). If Android hasn't created a strong enough following to survive (and thrive) with the iPhone as real competition (it never was with it being tied to ATT in my opinion) then it deserves to die, and I say that as a die-hard Android fan. So... maybe not nothing, but it shouldn't really effect Android long term if Android is as serious a competitor for the iPhone as a lot of people think it is.
Re:Nothing? by MrHanky · 2010-10-07 04:02 · Score: 2, Insightful

There are more people who will ditch AT&T for Verizon than there are people who will ditch Android for iPhone, for the simple fact that the U.S. isn't the whole world. Also, some people dislike the need for going through a goddamn 12 step program just to change the ringtone. For a few things where there's money involved for Apple, the iPhone is remarkably user hostile.
Re:Nothing? by AshtangiMan · 2010-10-07 04:17 · Score: 2, Interesting

If only those 2 year contracts came to an end. I have to wait an entire month . . . Oh that's right, I am thinking to change when my contract is up. Though I am thinking of going from iPhone to DroidX. The iPhone 3G is good, but annoyingly slow, and some of the policies that changed with upgrades to newer iOS don't sit well with me, so I am still running 3.0. The only thing I might miss is the talk and surf which does come in very handy. So I am covered by your number 3. Most of my friends and family have Verizon, and they have all mentioned wanting to switch to the iPhone, so I am not sure your option 1 is very correct, though it may slow the adoption. In my mind that can only help Verizon as it gives the network the opportunity to grow with the demand.
Re:Nothing? by postbigbang · 2010-10-07 04:17 · Score: 2, Insightful

Agreed. AT&T is Southwest Bell with lipstick. They had the worst customer service, lousiest coverage, and weakest share. Apple needed to have a CDMA phone along with its GSM offering. They could have covered all bases, but had to capitulate to the fact that AT&T and most of the world is GSM. So they made their choice.
I stuck with Verizon not because of any love whatsoever, rather they have coverage and a decently designed data coverage network. At the top are the same bunch of monopolistic-minded greedy execs seeking to suck every last coin out of your pocket-- customer churn be damned.
Android isn't a piece of cake, but on the whole, the values behind it (and not Google as a company behind it) will continue to overtake Apple. Verizon should careful; in the post-9/11 market capitalization atmosphere, they could follow Sprint's fate easily, IMHO. Quality and service count. If they keep their eye on this, they'll do well.

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---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
Re:Nothing? by Enry · 2010-10-07 04:26 · Score: 2

What I mean is all the people that wanted a true smartphone got one in the past year - they got a Droid. Few will want to pay again to get an iPhone. That leaves you with the people whose contracts are almost up and haven't upgraded. Around here (Boston), that's a fairly small number. I see almost as many Droid phones as I do iPhones.
Oh, and the talk-and-surf works when you're on wifi. I don't know if LTE lets you do that.
Re:Nothing? by 0100010001010011 · 2010-10-07 04:29 · Score: 3, Insightful

Not too long ago Apple didn't have one of the most popular phones on the market. Instead, they were the underdog. The ROKR was an epic failure and no one really knew if Apple could pull off a phone.
But they went shopping around anyway, more or less 'begging' to let someone take their yet un announced product. Not only that, they were asking the network to NOT have total control of the device. (These were the days when Verizon would cripple a phone to turn a quick $.50 making you send a photo on their network). In addition to that they were asking them to upgrade their servers, spend money, so that it could do this fancy thing called 'Visual Voicemail.' In return for all of this, Apple would sign a exclusivity contract with said network.
Sprint* said thank you and respectfully declined. AT&T also declined. Verizon's CEO went above declining and more or less gave Jobs the finger. Cingular said 'what the heck' and let Apple in.
AT&T bought Cingular, honored the contract and here we are today.
It was a HUGE gamble. It paid off, but Apple had never made a phone before. There was no "AppStore". The iPod Touch didn't exist. iTunes Music store existed, but wasn't a dominant force in the marketplace and still DRM protected.
But Apple didn't "blow" anything. No one predicted the iPhone's success, not even Apple. AT&T is clinging to that contract like a liferaft, because they know the second it is up Verizon is going to bend over backwards to accomodate the iPhone.
* All gathered from internet hearsay over the years.
Re:Nothing? by pherthyl · 2010-10-07 04:43 · Score: 2, Insightful

>> That leaves you with the people whose contracts are almost up and haven't upgraded. Around here (Boston), that's a fairly small number
Bahaha. What, did you conduct a survey of the people of Boston?
"My 3 friends don't plan on upgrading so therefore no one in Boston is planning to upgrade".
Re:Nothing? by yabos · 2010-10-07 04:46 · Score: 3, Informative

Apple approached Verizon for the first iPhone but Verizon wanted too much control. Only AT&T would allow Apple the control that they have, but it came at the cost of an exclusive deal.
Re:Nothing? by nine-times · 2010-10-07 04:46 · Score: 2, Informative

Well...
A) I'm not sure Apple's goal is to completely dominate the phone market.
B) I'm not sure they could have gotten a real start in the cell phone market without an exclusivity deal. Supposedly the AT&T exclusivity was the price Apple paid for making the device the way they wanted, carrier support for visual voicemail, and unlimited data plans.
C) iPhones range between $99 and $299, so I don't know where you're getting the $500 price.
D) I know many people who have said that they really really wanted an iPhone but were not willing to give up Verizon's superior coverage. I had an Android phone for a little while because I wanted to be on Verizon, but I switched back because the Droid Incredible was incredibly annoying.
E) For most practical purposes, Android is only moderately more open. The Android market's approval process is more open, but that's about it. You're still restricted in what you can do by what carriers/manufacturers will allow. Most people aren't going to want to screw around with the kernel, and those who do will basically have to hack their phone to get it installed.
Re:Nothing? by Shakrai · 2010-10-07 05:00 · Score: 2, Informative

DroidX is locked down
Says who? You can root it, remove the bloatware and generally do whatever the hell you want with it if you are inclined to do so.

Verizon botched the Froyo rollout on it
"Botched"? They missed a deadline because of Exchange issues but the roll out did eventually happen and seems to be going just fine.

and trust me you won't like Verizon's V-Cast shovelware
Thankfully you aren't required to use it. It's just an icon on the phone. You can even remove that icon if you are inclined to do so.

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We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
Re:Nothing? by JourneymanMereel · 2010-10-07 06:44 · Score: 2, Insightful

DroidX is locked down
Says who? You can root it, remove the bloatware and generally do whatever the hell you want with it if you are inclined to do so.
You can also jailbreak an iPhone, yet we* complain constantly about how locked down the iPhone is.
*The collective /. we

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Life has many choices. Eternity has two. What's yours?
Re:Nothing? by JourneymanMereel · 2010-10-07 06:53 · Score: 2

For all their flaws, Sprint tends to be one of the more open carriers. Also, while they don't seem to make as much noise, if you're interested in openess don't overlook Palm. While their entire OS isn't Open Source, it is still based on Linux so those parts are open source. Of course, Android is the same way... the core OS may be open source, but the Google apps, MFG additions, and carrier additions typically aren't. Also, Palm doesn't make you hack your phone to get root access. Want root access, put it in developer mode by entering one well known code. Wanna update but worried you might loose your root access? Well stop worrying... that happens all the time in Android and iOS worlds, but not on webOS :).

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Life has many choices. Eternity has two. What's yours?
Re:Nothing? by natehoy · 2010-10-07 08:36 · Score: 2, Interesting

I got my smartphone nearly two years ago, issued by my company (a BlackBerry). My contract is up in another few months. We had our choice of three BlackBerry models (81xx, 83xx, and 88xx) and two carriers (Verizon and AT&T).
A significant population of people really wanted iPhones, but at the time they were most certainly NOT ready for corporate prime time.
More importantly, AT&T's coverage is a little worse than Verizon's up in this area, too, so locking into AT&T for everyone was completely impractical.
Now things are very different.
If my company decides to replace our phones when the contract is up, who knows what options will be available to us? iPhone seems to be ready for corporate use now - they've beefed them up to acceptable security, added remote wipe, encrypted the onboard data, etc. A lot of things that, much as I'm a fan of the Droid OS, Droid has yet to deliver as far as I know. So I suspect it'll be iPhone or BlackBerry for us.
Of course, the iPhone is still impractical at the moment, because there are a lot of people who were forced to choose Verizon for their BlackBerries simply because AT&T lacked coverage at their houses or places where they needed it. This despite the fact that Verizon crippled the GPS and a few other features on the phone, so there was a decided preference for AT&T for most of us (fortunately, I'm in a good AT&T coverage area at home so I was able to use AT&T). If your phone don't work, then it don't work. So unless the iPhone was somehow available on Verizon, it's simply not an option around here for many people.
But if the iPhone hits Verizon, there's little reason to even offer AT&T any more at work. They could easily consolidate to the platform most people seem to want (iPhone) on the carrier that has better coverage around these parts (Verizon) and consolidate to one single handset model rather than six and one carrier rather than two. They'd need fewer swap spares and probably get better pricing on plans, too.
Personally, I'd prefer a newer BlackBerry, but hey - I'm not paying for it. If the company decides to standardize on Verizon iPhones, then that's what I'll carry. And it'll beat the hell out of paying for my own phone.

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Re:Nothing? by node+3 · 2010-10-07 09:21 · Score: 2, Informative

What I mean is all the people that wanted a true smartphone got one in the past year - they got a Droid. Few will want to pay again to get an iPhone.
Disregard my previous question to you, I now have the answer. You are insane.
Re:Nothing? by node+3 · 2010-10-07 10:13 · Score: 2, Informative

And yet a single phone model on a single carrier still takes a huge slice of the pie which Android has only recently (this year) managed to catch up with, and only by being offered by EVERY carrier.
Exactly. In terms of sales opportunities, Android has had a clear advantage over iPhone for well over a year now, and even with that, Android is only now reaching parity in terms of new units sold.
Currently, the only things Android has going for it over iPhone that the average consumer truly cares about are carrier choice and price. This story is about alleviating one of those things. As for price, being more expensive than some MP3 players didn't seem to harm the iPod much. Once people can truly chose between Android and iPhone, we'll see how things really stack up. The only thing that will keep Android up in this game will be pricing. Specifically, as a free phone, because even with a $50 Android vs a $99 iPhone, consumers are going to chose the iPhone. It's just that up to this point, Verizon customers were not even offered this choice.

Not going to happen. Here's why. by aristotle-dude · 2010-10-07 03:43 · Score: 3, Insightful

Ever notice that beyond the bold carrier emblems on the phones themselves that virtually all smartphones sold on Verizon are advertised by Verizon instead of the handset makers themselves? Contrast that with the iPhone which might be sold exclusively in the US on AT&T but it is marketed by Apple directly and there are no AT&T (or other carriers for that matter) logos anywhere to be found on the phone or in the manuals.

Those other handset makers have allowed themselves to be relegated OEMs for the carriers while Apple markets directly to the consumer and only used the carriers as subsidized sales channels. This means that Apple manufactures one model (save for the Chinese no-Wifi model) for use worldwide and only enters IMEIs into their database to as sim LOCKED for any carrier that requests it. Except for different manuals and charger models, the iPhone you buy in the US/Canada or the UK only differ in what is included in the box and the phone itself is the same production run.

Even assuming that Verizon agreed to no branding on the phone either physically or in software/logo form, Apple would have to either create a special run for Verizon (CDMA) or raise the costs for every iPhone manufactured by switching to a CDMA/GSM model for no added benefit for people living outside of the US.

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Re:Not going to happen. Here's why. by ceejayoz · 2010-10-07 03:56 · Score: 2, Insightful

Ever notice that beyond the bold carrier emblems on the phones themselves that virtually all smartphones sold on Verizon are advertised by Verizon instead of the handset makers themselves? Contrast that with the iPhone which might be sold exclusively in the US on AT&T but it is marketed by Apple directly and there are no AT&T (or other carriers for that matter) logos anywhere to be found on the phone or in the manuals.
Other AT&T phones have AT&T branding all over them, just like the other cell phone networks. I'd imagine AT&T wanted the iPhone branded with their logo, but that they got shot down. I also suspect Apple wouldn't give on that issue in talks with Verizon.

On the iPhone coming to Verizon by Iphtashu+Fitz · 2010-10-07 03:48 · Score: 2, Insightful

I'll just cut and paste a comment I made about this on another site:

How many years have they been predicting this, and how many times have those predictions failed to come true? I used to say that I won't believe this until Verizon or Apple themselves announce it. I'm now at the point where I won't believe it until I'm actually holding a Verizon iPhone in my hand, and even then I'll be dubious.

High speed still with low usage caps? by DigitalSorceress · 2010-10-07 03:52 · Score: 2, Informative

I'm all for high-speed mobile Internet, but will they continue with their abysmally low usage caps?

WOOT! I can watch a full HD movie, streaming it almost in real-time... well, most of it anyway: capped out before the climax? Ahh well, I can finish it once my billing cycle rolls back around.

Yes, I know it's not quite that bad, but you get the point: at the same time all sorts of ISPs and mobile network operators are increasing speeds and falling all over themselves to tell you how quickly you can do stuff, they're capping out monthly transfer at cripplingly low numbers.

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The Digital Sorceress

Re:Question by Captain+Spam · 2010-10-07 03:55 · Score: 3, Insightful

That being said, I don't know why Verizon pushes their V-Cast services so hard...out of all the people I know that use Verizon, I don't know anyone that actually uses anything V-Cast has to offer.

Our logic states that because nobody uses V-Cast and hasn't used it in the X years it's been around, perhaps they should realize their failure, stop pushing it, and try something else, as it's clear nobody wants it.

Their logic states that because nobody uses V-Cast and hasn't used it in the X years it's been around, it obviously has not been pushed hard enough, as it's clear these customers are misbehaving by not throwing their money at it.

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Banned for life!! by thestudio_bob · 2010-10-07 04:01 · Score: 2, Insightful

But since I wanted to write my own apps...

Gee, so Apple has banned you from writing iPhone apps? Gosh, that sucks.

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Re:It means nothing to Android. by SETIGuy · 2010-10-07 04:22 · Score: 2, Insightful

iPhone does let you write your own apps, fandroid.

And if you pay $99, Steve Jobs will even let you run your apps on your own phone.

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Re:Verizon vPhone by rickb928 · 2010-10-07 04:25 · Score: 2, Informative

"I can easily see Verizon's version of the iPhone as being the first smartphone with bloatware on it"

You haven't been paying attention. Samsung in particular is adding plenty of bloatware to the Galaxy phones.

See? Android rules! :)

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Re:It means nothing to Android. by Andy+Dodd · 2010-10-07 04:33 · Score: 4, Informative

While the CPU in the iPhone is an "Apple spec" CPU, most likely the radio chipset is from a third party.

Most such third parties offer roughly equivalent GSM and CDMA chipsets (In fact, probably 50%+ of the GSM/UMTS smartphone market is powered by Qualcomm chipsets, despite Qualcomm being the creator and backer of cdmaOne/CDMA2000), making it not too difficult to make a CDMA version of a phone and a GSM version.

Also, you show a fundamental lack of understanding of RF and communications engineering. New band = new antenna. Same bands but different protocol = no new antenna, just a different baseband processor. Therefore, adding T-Mobile's additional band is the least likely route for Apple to go.

Changing the iPhone from GSM/UMTS to CDMA2000 (note: UMTS uses a CDMA modulation scheme, one of the reasons Qualcomm is involved in that market despite them backing a competing protocol/air interface suite - they're good at making CDMA chipsets whether it is the UMTS protocol/air interface suite or CDMA2000) most likely entails:
1) Switch out the baseband processor chip. Note that as I said before, nearly all UMTS chipset providers also provide CDMA2000 chipsets that are very similar and require little engineering
2) Remove the now unneeded SIM slot (what was that about a packed device?)

That's about it

Note: Right now, Apple gets their radio chipsets from Infineon, but there is a lot of evidence pointing to them moving to Qualcomm for the 5th gen iPhone, with the ability to produce a CDMA version being one of a number of reasons, Infineon getting purchased by Intel being a bigger reason - see http://touchreviews.net/iphone-5-qualcomm-radio-chip/ - I don't know about Infineon chipsets, but it is VERY easy to make both a CDMA2000 and GSM/UMTS version of a phone if you use Qualcomm for your radio chipsets, which is why a large portion of HTC's GSM product line have near identical CDMA equivalents.

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Re:It means nothing to Android. by jandrese · 2010-10-07 04:38 · Score: 2, Insightful

Yes, why would Apple care about the largest mobile phone provider in the US? It's such a mystery.

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Re:Question by SETIGuy · 2010-10-07 05:28 · Score: 2, Informative

Hell, didn't Verizon announce their own Android app store?

Yes, it appears as a separate tab in the Marketplace app. You can go there to install all the Vcast apps.

Who's gonna bet that the Google Marketplace app suddenly disappears from Verizon phones?

If it does, you go to a Google website and download the Marketplace app. If Verizon prevents that, then we all go find a different carrier when our contracts are up. If the Verizon app store is as closed and controlled as the Apple AppStore, I would leave.

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