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IT's Last Hope — a Job In the Boonies?
GMGruman writes "Offshoring, cloud computing, automation, 'do more with less' — all of these have been chipping away at US IT workers' ability to have a job. But some companies now dangle a new possibility: Move to rural areas for lower-paying 'onshoring' jobs that can compete with lower overseas salaries. InfoWorld's Bob Violino talked to IT workers who've made the move and discovered that although it's no 'Green Acres meets Big Bang Theory' experience, a move from the big city to the hinterlands appeals mainly to just some IT worker segments, even as it provides new opportunities for others."
Rather than take a crappy on-site job somewhere, I'd rather have an even crappier off-site one... and a lower cost of living. No commute whatsoever is a big feature.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
I don't know about you guys but after 10+ years of stagnant wages and fierce competition from India that shows no signs of subsiding, I'm finding a new career path...
If you can read this... 01110101 01110010 00100000 01100001 00100000 01100111 01100101 01100101 01101011
Offshoring, cloud computing, automation, 'do more with less' — all of these have been chipping away at US IT workers' ability to have a job.
The only thing here that is a problem is offshoring. Cloud computing, automation, and doing more with less is our job.
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What companies want are cheap slaves. They want to use them like batteries and toss them aside when they get old or sick.
That's why they had laws passed which say labor laws don't apply to computer people (specifically in washington, california, and texas that I know of).
They want 12 hour days.
They don't want to pay benefits.
They want the work to be accurate.
The executives want no employees, yet still want a mass market they can sell to and get big salaries themselves.
That's ending as the mass market hollows out. Increasingly under 1% of the population takes most the money and doesn't share it. They are destroying their own market by not contributing any employee/customers to it.
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
I am a programmer / analyst in the Orlando area and am starting to see a slight change in contract as well as full time positions. A large pharmaceutical distributor in Lakeland is hiring dozens of .Net developers who will eventually telecommute. Contract at 45 / hr then 85k to 90k full time. There are areas around Lakeland that would make the boondocks look like New York City.
The other thing I am finding is that, while you don't have be a salesperson, having some level of social skills and the ability to work with clients makes a big difference. Unfortunately I know a lot of computer programmers who would sooner stick a red hot poker in their ear than have to deal with clients or management.
What the hell do you think they were doing before the plant opened? And what do you think prevents them from quitting and moving to the city as rural people have been doing for 150 years? People in towns that these companies move into are free to keep on doing whatever they were doing before the plant opened, or take a job at the plant. That is choice.
Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
If you're not tied to the high-density lifestyle, making the change can be nice. I had a 20 year career in Silicon Valley and moved my family to the "boonies". Well, the suburbs of a small city in "flyover territory".
Housing is much cheaper ( 1/3 the cost), don't have the same crime or traffic. Energy is cheaper, groceries a little less. Much less "foot of government" regulation on our backs here. Taxes are comparable (by %).
Where we are, people are generally friendly. An hour to river-rafting or snow skiing, depending on the season. (we have actual seasons). Wide open spaces. Good schools. Surprisingly good food of all kinds.
On second thought, it's horrible here. You wouldn't like it. Trust me. Stay on the coasts.
Being one of a few IT guys in my small town, people are always asking me this or that, and I am able to barter with other local pro's on getting stuff done.
when I first moved out to nowhere, it seemed I was the one guy in town that didnt have a service to offer, now with the introduction of technology to farming, its become quite the resource. From GPS navigated harvesting to PLC controlled feeders and robotic milking machines.. There is a ton of work / money to be made. Sure its not high-finance, but its an essential service and the stress levels are almost nil. With Canada's population density, there is no shortage of rural areas.
"Going rural" isn't really a new concept. For decades now anyone that's been willing to work in an area that few people are willing to work in can usually get the job pretty easily. My wife's medical class talked frequently about who was going to go work in the farming communities and make 'the big bucks' doing what no one else was willing to do. Sure you're fairly isolated from your typical peers, but those people are genuine and attempting to do real work to provide for their families. Supporting their medical, technological, mechanical, whatever, needs has to be more rewarding than supporting the bulk of urbanites who just want to get paid while they surf their favorite forum / news aggregate and wait to slowly die.
And in many fields you get paid more in remote areas as well, due to the lack of people willing to head out there.
No sig for you. YOU GET NO SIG!
The employees have nowhere else to go, and you can pay minimum wage and really screw them over.
Worse than that. If the plant closes, everyone scrambles to move to another town. Housing values plummet. The only way to move is to let the bank foreclose on your house. Now your credit is ruined too.
It's a chain reaction seen over and over again in the Midwest. It's why so many country songs are about getting out of a small town.
One of our competitors trademarked the term "hypothesis". From now on, we will call them "boneheaded ideas".
The executives want no employees, yet still want a mass market they can sell to and get big salaries themselves.
That's ending as the mass market hollows out. Increasingly under 1% of the population takes most the money and doesn't share it. They are destroying their own market by not contributing any employee/customers to it.
They believe that they can sell to developing countries and that will save their asses. Unfortunately for them, they are also under the impression that after off-shoring industrialized manufacturing and development, they will also be the ones making the stuff. Nope, technology will transfer and local firms will take over. Eventually, companies like Intel, GM, and any other big American corp that has moved pretty much overseas (except for mgt) will be made irrelevant. All those foreign scientists, engineers, accountants and other knowledge workers will wise up, start their own firms, and destroy the old stodgy firms.
What will I do? Buy the foreign cheaper products - I have no choice. My standard of living is worse than my Grandfather's. My Grandpa had an eighth grade education, 5 kids, a stay at home wife, middle class home, a car, and had no problem paying the bills. He retired with a great pension and never had to worry about eating, keeping the house, and he still gave out $10,000 a pop to his kids. My Dad supported 3 kids, a house, two cars on one salary. You can't do that anymore.
That American dream is dead, dead, dead.
We're spiraling down to the lowest common denominator: poverty stricken people who will work 14 hour days - 7 days a week and thank their personal god that they can do that because the alternative is far worse.
RIP America
July 4, 1776 - September 11, 2001
So you're a salesperson. Fine. Why insist that engineers be salespeople as well? And if you're NOT a salesperson, and you're selling, who's doing the engineering?
There used to be this concept called 'division of labor'. Some people were good at engineering, not so good at talking to customers. You hired them to do engineering. Some people were better at talking to customers, you hired them to do sales or marketing or some other customer-facing task. Now the standard line is that to get hired as an engineer you have to be able to do everything. Well, gee, boss, if I could do it all, what do I need you for? I'll start my own damn business.
At the same time, no one is demanding the salespeople troubleshoot network issues or write code.
For years the American public has been duped into believing that our manufacturing jobs would be shipped overseas, but we would all be retrained for high tech jobs. Poor overseas workers would become richer, we'd be better trained and better paid, and everything would be a free-market utopia.
Oops.
Turns out, you can virtualize all of those servers. Host them physically somewhere like Iceland, with cheap electricity and no cooling costs, and then have them managed by for 10 rupees an hour by a systems engineer in India.
I would suggest we all go back for more job training, but what's left? We could all become brain surgeons, but big business has half this country acting lobotomized already...
--- Generation X: The first generation to have SIG lines inferior to their parents... ---
I work in IT for a company that is located in a rural area. They started their business here and as they have grown over the years, they remain here for their HQ, even though they are global now. It's terrible. Sure the lack of traffic is nice, but that is about all.
Here are some realities:
1. They want you to work as if you are in some overseas sweatshop.
2. They run beyond lean but with global reach that means essentially 12-20 hour days are the norm. No comp time.
3. They do not attract top talent because of their location, while some want to get away from the city, many do not.
4. They generally are looking to avoid things like unions and costs like healthcare... I was told by HR to not even use the healthcare and instead use the clinics in Walgreens, etc. (I am expected to work 50+ hours and travel like mad, and accep tthat even if I pay for healthcare I'd be better off at some pharmacy clinic for my health.)
5. Free parking. That's another plus. FWIW.
I've been in IT for over 15 years and the writing is on the wall, this industry has become a joke. If you value any semblance of a normal life and family it's almost impossible with 24x7 on-call, travel, running so lean there is nothing but bone, extreme pressure, slashed budgets... I could go on. I value my life and time more than a paycheck, and it's coming close to the point where I make a move out of IT and into something a bit more sane.
http://teasphere.wordpress.com - A little spot of tea
I live in a town with 2.5k people. I telecommute for an international corporation. I make 3x the normal income for this area. I have a group of medium to large cities within 30 minutes to 1 hour from my location. I paid $40k for a house which would cost 10x that or more in some areas. I expect to be debt free(including house, car and school loans) within the next 5 years. And that's just salary based. It's not taking into account my investment strategies.
I have several options for high speed internet.
I have several options for decent to excellent medical care.
I go to concerts, museums and such on a regular basis.
The schools are pretty good around here, and since I care enough to supplement my kids' educations with things like fossil hunting, programming and various home science projects, my kids are in the top of their classes.
I can make my own coffee, thanks.
And I can go sailing and diving on my days off.
Now, what exactly am I missing by living in the midwest? The ocean. Other than that, I could care less that I'm not stuck in a high rent, high cost-of-living money sink. I'm laughing all the way to the bank.
All that is necessary for the triumph of good is that evil men do nothing.
everything is farther away which means you need 2 cars instead of 1 or 0. you drive more miles so you buy more gas and spend more on maintenance or buy a new car faster with less trade in value. taxes are less than in places like NYC, but you have to pay for everything that taxes pay in NYC. things like garbage pickup. visiting people who live close to the boonies i've noticed that food is more expensive since you have to truck it farther to the store.
then there are the little things like schools tend to suck in the boonies compared to the big cities and their suburbs. if you care about your kids being in the top 10% of earners then NYC, NoVa or a few other places are the ones to go for schools. there are no starbucks or whole foods markets in the boonies. only crappy mass produced crap. nothing to do other than stay home all day when you're not working crappy internet access crappy medical care. big cities have the good hospitals and doctors
I am in the 'boonies'. We have 2 cars but really only use one.. We don't rack a lot of miles, and when they break its easier to find a neighbour who can help ya out with a fix, instead of paying $85/h labour.
Our taxes are cheaper, and we get Garbage pickup.. the taxes pay for everything like they do in a city.. but its cheaper becuase there is 1800 people insteaof 1, 800,000 people.
We have coffee in the country, it just doesn't cost 5 dollars a cup.. and we have the same grocery stores as anywhere else.. only since its the country the produce is cheaper because its local, the same with the meat..
Our schools are excellent, Country doesnt mean slack-jaw idiots... our schools don't have barbed fences and dont go in to lockdown every other week. Everyone knows everyone else, so the stranger-danger isn't peaking red all the time.. our kids actually get to play.
When we arent working there is plenty to do, and usually its plenty cheap... if we wanna go woop it up in the city, we still can.
We have high speed internet,
We have good hospitals, As a matter of fact I recently had a VERY sick child.. The local hospital did an amazing job, and when it was time for more help it was a short helicopter ride to a internationally renowned hospital (we were lucky to be 2 hour drive away.. but they flew kids in from Europe to this hospital...
So yes it IS cheaper.. we made the switch a few years ago and went rural.. It does have a few down sides, but I love nature and I love open space... I love seeing the stars at night... so for me its a perfect fit...
You won't find a lot of democrats. Many people have, or still do, eat squirrel and don't be surprised if things close down early for the Deer season. Employee pot-lucks are common and usually the older of the female office staff have a hand in organizing things as well as cooking most of the stuff. It will be rare that you encounter co-workers with any sort of a degree. Most have gotten where they are by moving through the ranks. There are a lot of family owned businesses run in peculiar ways. Everyone knows someone who used to own a farm and had to sell it to some Corn King out of California because they couldn't compete. People are generally friendly and pretty easy-going and christmas bonuses are generally in the form of Walmart or local store-owner gift certificates. I wouldn't want to go back to it unless I had to. It's too monoculture-y for me.
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How about hi-tech services like affordable, fast and stable Internet broadband services? Cellphone/Wireless, etc.?
Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
I think that the views here for some people maybe out of experience, but I figured that I would shed light on my personal experience. I went from a decent sized metro (about 400,000-500,000 population) to a huge city. In the city I used to live in, I worked for a major corporation as a programmer. I then moved to a huge city, but for a much smaller IT firm. /., so I will let you google yourself to find the results, but the city where I live in, I pay about $900 a month for rent and all utilities (also counting high speed internet) and live in a 822 square foot, one bedroom apartment. For an apartment that size, $900 is not bad for everything. I also live near the south and near the west coast, so I am not going to get gouged for heating bills. My electricity bill is probably not the best, but I am nerd and have alot of electronics plugged in, so that cost would be close to the same anywhere.
I have learned from my experiences doing this (since it seems to be an almost 180 of what you guys are all talking about). I found out that in big corporations, you are only a number. Nobody cares about you except for possibly a few people you know personally in your department. It is all about the bottom line. If you can improve the bottom line, there is a good chance you will get paid more or get a promotion. Don't expect massive raises, but they will happen. Since I came from a "right to work" state, I was fired without a reason (not laid off, fired, as I am guessing it is cheaper to not offer severance or anything). In a bigger corporation, even good programmers can be fired if it helps the bottom line. A good friend of mine was a programmer in the most elite team in a major insurance company, but it was cheaper to let them all go than to pay their salaries so that they could deliver gold (I met some of the other guys on the team, they truly were insanely good).
A smaller company is much easier to work for. You will get raises based on your performance. If you perform well, you get a nice, hefty raise. Well, that is in the one I work for. From what I have been informed, is that many smaller corporations do not really give raises. Just negotiate what you are willing to make for about 5 years and go with that. With the smaller companies (and part of this is because I have a friend that also works for a smaller company as well) there is not that huge fear of getting fired to make the bottom line.Many of these places do not really have a set time for you to show up. Come in and put in about 8 hours and then go home. Unless something you did is seriously broke, extremely little overtime (you are salary anyway, so it doesn't matter), well, unless you are a networking or systems admin guy. I am coming from a programmer background, so I am informing about that aspect. Show up when you want, leave when you want, and just do what you enjoy. I love programming, and am in a job where I truly feel like there is no stress here. I am here to program, and I love doing it.
My friend who also works for a small company has told me countless times he is the same way.
The only big downers of small companies is the pay. You can negotiate pay if you want, but do not expect a big raise or promotion anytime soon. In smaller companies, unless somebody leaves the company, don't expect a promotion anytime soon. It is a small place, so there is little to no room for advancement. Honestly, I guess I come from the mindset where if you are worried about advancement, maybe you picked the wrong profession. Being a programmer is an art form. It is something you need to be passionate about. If you are doing it for the money, than you missed the boat by about 5-10 years. Be a business major instead if you just want money. I am being honest. If you truly enjoy being a programmer, enjoy it.
I would not say find a small town, find a small business. I have an incredibly night life where I live (and for a single 28 year old, it is great). There are lots of bigger cities with a lower cost of living. You are on
A small business is the way to go if you love being a programmer. I say this from personal experience
The world is how you make it
Once robots really get going, you're going to see mass unemployment that will make the GD look like a boom. Within the next 2-3 generations, most if not all jobs that have been done by humans for humans for millenia will be ported over to robots/computers. The only ones to benefit from this will be the top 1% of wealth owners. You know, the ones that own more and more of the worlds resources and wealth every year... The rest of us will pay the price of techno-industrialization.
Anyone who doesn't see it or can't admit it to themselves is either blind, scared or foolish.
What will the robots do with all the unemployed, poor and discontent millions?
Thats the real question.
If you were raised in a large city, chances are you will prefer to stay there and will think of all sorts of terrible things about the rural areas. Same situation if you were raised in a rural place. It's purely a matter of preference. Some people like to be in densely populated areas, walking everywhere. They prefer no yard to keep up, the many different cultures around (although I might argue that to see most of those cultures you have to go to the part of the city that they live in, I.E. Chicago's Little Italy, Little Mexico, Little Korea, the "black" part of town). In the rural areas, you get lots of space cheaply, lower crime, traffic, when you drive where you choose there is always easy and free parking. This is just how it is. People almost always prefer what they were raised on, and getting them to change is nigh on impossible.
I've been to the Hinterlands and boy is it boring. My level 80 Warrior rusted his armor crying in lonliness.
He who knows best knows how little he knows. - Thomas Jefferson
Your requirements seem eminently reasonable, IMHO. I have no idea why you are getting pushback from the peanut gallery. I can only assume these people are employed at places where their disfunction isn't a major liability. Government, perhaps, or an educational institution. Geographically remote, perhaps. Or they have managed to find technically challenged management to bamboozle into thinking they are essential. The skills you describe have been invaluable in every place I've ever worked, at least the places that were worth working at. The technical people have been top-notch, and were also able to, you know, dress themselves and actually interact with other people. These skills aren't mutually exclusive.