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IT's Last Hope — a Job In the Boonies?
GMGruman writes "Offshoring, cloud computing, automation, 'do more with less' — all of these have been chipping away at US IT workers' ability to have a job. But some companies now dangle a new possibility: Move to rural areas for lower-paying 'onshoring' jobs that can compete with lower overseas salaries. InfoWorld's Bob Violino talked to IT workers who've made the move and discovered that although it's no 'Green Acres meets Big Bang Theory' experience, a move from the big city to the hinterlands appeals mainly to just some IT worker segments, even as it provides new opportunities for others."
Rather than take a crappy on-site job somewhere, I'd rather have an even crappier off-site one... and a lower cost of living. No commute whatsoever is a big feature.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
I don't know about you guys but after 10+ years of stagnant wages and fierce competition from India that shows no signs of subsiding, I'm finding a new career path...
If you can read this... 01110101 01110010 00100000 01100001 00100000 01100111 01100101 01100101 01101011
Learn a foreign language and migrate.
Fuck systemd. Fuck Redhat. Fuck Soylent, too. Wait, scratch the last one.
It's called Smartshoring. And working from home is called Homeshoring. Can I get WinTheLottoShoring?
Offshoring, cloud computing, automation, 'do more with less' — all of these have been chipping away at US IT workers' ability to have a job.
The only thing here that is a problem is offshoring. Cloud computing, automation, and doing more with less is our job.
.
As long as they would get me a griffin any time I needed to go in to the office. Shouldn't be too hard in Hinterlands.
The actual article goes into some detail about the tradeoffs, one of which is that moving to the boonies doesn't convey as many cost advantages as some workers expect. I think it's great that more IT folks will be able to work outside the urban centers, but it's certainly no panacea. If you like living in a smaller town, you hate commuting, and you're comfortable being a bit outside the professional mainstream, go for it.
Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
What companies want are cheap slaves. They want to use them like batteries and toss them aside when they get old or sick.
That's why they had laws passed which say labor laws don't apply to computer people (specifically in washington, california, and texas that I know of).
They want 12 hour days.
They don't want to pay benefits.
They want the work to be accurate.
The executives want no employees, yet still want a mass market they can sell to and get big salaries themselves.
That's ending as the mass market hollows out. Increasingly under 1% of the population takes most the money and doesn't share it. They are destroying their own market by not contributing any employee/customers to it.
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
I am a programmer / analyst in the Orlando area and am starting to see a slight change in contract as well as full time positions. A large pharmaceutical distributor in Lakeland is hiring dozens of .Net developers who will eventually telecommute. Contract at 45 / hr then 85k to 90k full time. There are areas around Lakeland that would make the boondocks look like New York City.
The other thing I am finding is that, while you don't have be a salesperson, having some level of social skills and the ability to work with clients makes a big difference. Unfortunately I know a lot of computer programmers who would sooner stick a red hot poker in their ear than have to deal with clients or management.
What the hell do you think they were doing before the plant opened? And what do you think prevents them from quitting and moving to the city as rural people have been doing for 150 years? People in towns that these companies move into are free to keep on doing whatever they were doing before the plant opened, or take a job at the plant. That is choice.
Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
If you're not tied to the high-density lifestyle, making the change can be nice. I had a 20 year career in Silicon Valley and moved my family to the "boonies". Well, the suburbs of a small city in "flyover territory".
Housing is much cheaper ( 1/3 the cost), don't have the same crime or traffic. Energy is cheaper, groceries a little less. Much less "foot of government" regulation on our backs here. Taxes are comparable (by %).
Where we are, people are generally friendly. An hour to river-rafting or snow skiing, depending on the season. (we have actual seasons). Wide open spaces. Good schools. Surprisingly good food of all kinds.
On second thought, it's horrible here. You wouldn't like it. Trust me. Stay on the coasts.
Naw man, you can just move your house to just about any RV park in the US.
In some cases they were sharecropping, that's died out. While admittedly they have choices, there are fewer good viable ones. Basically choices that aren't really choices.
Then you are misunderstanding the problem entirely. If EVERYONE were a great employee, the need for IT professionals would be even less (because you could do more with less IT professionals) and you'd have even more IT pros out of jobs.
So not everyone is perfect, we get that, that's life. All industries are like that. What seperates IT? It's not like everyone in the sales team has 300% ROI either, but you don't see sales positions being offshored to people in India. That's because your sales person NEEDS to be here. They need to be schmoozing with clients, they need to make the appearance.
Straight up: Not all companies want to pay 10 guys 130K+ a year. Some of them would rather pay 90 people 13K a year. Especially in the positions that simply require bodies: Answering phone calls, debugging, etc.
We went and made Transglobal communication such a simple process that we're now bypassable. Don't get me wrong, IT isn't the only industry that suffers from Offshoring, but it's just ironic that good IT is the reason why it suffers over here.
Being one of a few IT guys in my small town, people are always asking me this or that, and I am able to barter with other local pro's on getting stuff done.
when I first moved out to nowhere, it seemed I was the one guy in town that didnt have a service to offer, now with the introduction of technology to farming, its become quite the resource. From GPS navigated harvesting to PLC controlled feeders and robotic milking machines.. There is a ton of work / money to be made. Sure its not high-finance, but its an essential service and the stress levels are almost nil. With Canada's population density, there is no shortage of rural areas.
WTH does it have to do with anything mentioned in that post?
"Going rural" isn't really a new concept. For decades now anyone that's been willing to work in an area that few people are willing to work in can usually get the job pretty easily. My wife's medical class talked frequently about who was going to go work in the farming communities and make 'the big bucks' doing what no one else was willing to do. Sure you're fairly isolated from your typical peers, but those people are genuine and attempting to do real work to provide for their families. Supporting their medical, technological, mechanical, whatever, needs has to be more rewarding than supporting the bulk of urbanites who just want to get paid while they surf their favorite forum / news aggregate and wait to slowly die.
And in many fields you get paid more in remote areas as well, due to the lack of people willing to head out there.
No sig for you. YOU GET NO SIG!
A sky full of stars an grass under your feet makes it all worth it, whatever the cost.
Can we get a new category for articles like these; "labor" or "work" for example. This is classified business, money, and IT, which are fine, but it's about a fairly specific aspect that probably matters to a lot of readers, I'd like to be able to search on it.
What's surprising? My sales for the last 3 years running have exceeded my annual reach goals and has brought in over 102 million dollars over that period. If there is any reason my employer keeps me, it is because I produce.
When we had to cut costs, it wasn't a purely mathematical decision. We had some people with salaries that weren't in line with their production, but we also looked for personal factors such as eagerness to work, ability to mentor, and the ability to meet with customers without making us look like amateurs. Believe me, there are a lot of people employed as engineers who should *never* be allowed to meet customers. We don't want them here, so we sent them packing.
Your posts reeks of bitterness and a "blame someone else" attitude. You think you deserve a job, but you don't realize that you are the one who must prove your worth to a company.
my brain just exploded with the IRONY there and where this was posted
What better place to say it than to your face?
I actually read an interesting article that said increased home ownership as of late could slow economic recovery, as people cannot as freely move to where the jobs are at.
Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
A year ago there were no IT jobs anywhere but the Washington DC metro. Yesterday a recruiter in Boston told me both coasts have recovered, but they're having real trouble finding qualified secure system engineers to fill jobs in the midwest.
The employees have nowhere else to go, and you can pay minimum wage and really screw them over.
Worse than that. If the plant closes, everyone scrambles to move to another town. Housing values plummet. The only way to move is to let the bank foreclose on your house. Now your credit is ruined too.
It's a chain reaction seen over and over again in the Midwest. It's why so many country songs are about getting out of a small town.
One of our competitors trademarked the term "hypothesis". From now on, we will call them "boneheaded ideas".
It is quite possible to work onshore in the outskirts of a small city in "flyover country". Still the "Boonies" to someone currently in SF, Seattle, Boston, NY.
We drive many fewer miles than we did in the SF Bay Area. We had to drive to get to: groceries, park for the kids, YMCA, church, work, friends
Here we drive for work (20 minutes), groceries (10 minutes) and to the Y (5 minutes). Our gas budget is 1/2 what it was.
We have starbucks, vastly better schools (on average) than any of the big cities. No "whole foods", but we do have co-ops, real farmer's markets and "natural" food stores.
I do pay $50/month for 10meg down/1 meg up internet which suffices for me.
Two large hospitals within a 20 minute drive and an uncrowded ER 6 minutes from our house (driving the speed limit).
Yes, it is cheaper, but that is mainly your housing costs and taxes. I grew up the the boonies, I live in Sili Valley. There is a reason for that -- if I moved back home I would go nuts from lack of techie people to talk to. But I would save big on housing and taxes. And I would love having some space for a workshop. Downside, I'd have to get re-acquainted with snow blowers. I've lived in the boonies, I could live in the boonies again, but for me the ability to find interesting people around every corner makes the misery and hassles of suburban life a fair trade off.
Farming
Lack of money. Farmers are know to be land rich and cash poor.
True, although many people in small towns were on some sort of government aid before the plant opened.
One of our competitors trademarked the term "hypothesis". From now on, we will call them "boneheaded ideas".
The executives want no employees, yet still want a mass market they can sell to and get big salaries themselves.
That's ending as the mass market hollows out. Increasingly under 1% of the population takes most the money and doesn't share it. They are destroying their own market by not contributing any employee/customers to it.
They believe that they can sell to developing countries and that will save their asses. Unfortunately for them, they are also under the impression that after off-shoring industrialized manufacturing and development, they will also be the ones making the stuff. Nope, technology will transfer and local firms will take over. Eventually, companies like Intel, GM, and any other big American corp that has moved pretty much overseas (except for mgt) will be made irrelevant. All those foreign scientists, engineers, accountants and other knowledge workers will wise up, start their own firms, and destroy the old stodgy firms.
What will I do? Buy the foreign cheaper products - I have no choice. My standard of living is worse than my Grandfather's. My Grandpa had an eighth grade education, 5 kids, a stay at home wife, middle class home, a car, and had no problem paying the bills. He retired with a great pension and never had to worry about eating, keeping the house, and he still gave out $10,000 a pop to his kids. My Dad supported 3 kids, a house, two cars on one salary. You can't do that anymore.
That American dream is dead, dead, dead.
We're spiraling down to the lowest common denominator: poverty stricken people who will work 14 hour days - 7 days a week and thank their personal god that they can do that because the alternative is far worse.
RIP America
July 4, 1776 - September 11, 2001
No, you CAN have 2 cars instead of 1 because you have room to park them. You may use more gas, but I've noticed that it can be cheaper in the countryside - a major nonfactor. You also may have less maintenance - less start and stop traffic, and no road-salting like in the big northern cities, which degrades the undercarriage.
Taxes are less across the board, and I have a choice and the responsibility on where my money goes. My local politicians also tend to at least be a little more reliable and aren't the big spenders that the cities have.
Food? Whatever. It's not that much more expensive, and I have better access to the fresh stuff.
Schools suck everywhere. That's a function of parenting and teachers, not money. DC throws more money at schools than anywhere else and they continue to be terrible.
Starbucks? Who needs that? I brew my own - better - for far less a cup. Don't need Whole Foods. Lived decently without it so far.
It's not so bad staying home all day when you actually like where you live and aren't cramped up by all the noise and smog and people.
Internet? It gets better every year. Also lived without it for a while.
Somewhat healthier in the boonies - cleaner environment overall. Less stress. Nicer people.
If I can "think like a businessman", why would I ever want to be someone else's employee?
That is just stupid. Why put up with being exploited?
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
Something I put together: "Beyond a Jobless Recovery: A heterodox perspective on 21st century economics"
http://knol.google.com/k/paul-d-fernhout/beyond-a-jobless-recovery
Essentially, a combination of robotics and other automation, better design, and voluntary social networks (like comment on Slashdot :-) are decreasing the value of most paid human labor, while at the same time demand is limited for a variety of reasons (some classical, like the credit crunch or a concentration of wealth, and some novel like people finally getting too much stuff). In order to move past this, our society needs to emphasize a gift economy (like Wikipedia or Debian GNU/Linux), a basic income (social security for all regardless of age), democratic resource-based planning (with taxes, subsidies, investments, and regulation), and/or stronger local economies that can produce more of their own stuff (with organic gardens, solar panels, green homes, and 3D printers). And there are some bad solutions (endless war, endless schooling, endless prisons, endless bureaucracy, and endless sickness) that we need to try to steer clear of as much as we can.
So, just giving up on IT and trying a new career path is not going to change this bigger picture which effects everyone, and it is a situation caused in part by IT, and ideally should be seen as a great opportunity, not a bad thing. It's just that the 20th century scarcity-based socio-economic paradigm is becoming obsolete in the 21st.
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
Google for "unemployment rate", and hit the first link. Compare D.C. with the state you live in. Say, Michigan, for example.
Clearly, there's a reason the above AC can find work, and the rest of us don't dare utter "I quit a job last month".
(+1, Depressingly Informative)
More Twoson than Cupertino
I'm an idiot and I have jobs thrown at me daily. I'm making six figures and I generally don't wear pants. They keep trying to make me management and I keep saying no because it violates my pants policies.
nothing to do other than stay home all day when you're not working
On the plus side it is lots of time to hone your skills. The older you get the harder the harder it is to have time to make use of. For me, more time means I have a better resume.
As far as starbucks and whole foods go, I can get what I need at the farmers market and stop by the local coffee shop, even time to chat with locals if I wish.
The only downside is crappy internet access. I won't lie, at a certain point you better get creative. Fortunately wireless is getting better every day.
All in all, it is what you make of it, so long as you are willing to make something of it. Also there are opportunities that will simply fall in your lap (or get thrust upon you) that you will never get to touch elsewhere. I'm not going to get stopped on the streets of San Francisco to be asked if the specs for municipal wifi are a good idea or not or if I have a better all around solution.
Taking less pay for lower cost of living makes sense. But it sounds like other than housing the cost of living isn't much lower. Plus, interviewing for a job once the economy turns around will be hard and you'd have to relocate again. Where's the win in this?
"Where quality is like a dead stinking rat - you just can't miss it."
Manufacturing companies discovered that long ago. Build a big plant in Outer Nowhere (but near an Interstate), become the biggest employer in town, and hire a captive labor force. The employees have nowhere else to go, and you can pay minimum wage and really screw them over. Plus, many small towns will give companies huge tax breaks and otherwise suck up.
You make that sound like it's a bad thing. The alternative is to build a big plant in China (but near an airport/seaport), become an industrial employer, and hire a migrant labor force. You can pay $0.50/hour and really screw them over. Plus, many countries like China will give companies huge tax breaks and otherwise suck up.
So take your pick--jobs stay in the U.S., or jobs go overseas. All this talk about "living wage", "decent jobs", and so forth that has permeated our national discussion of economic growth is a bunch of idealistic rhetoric that has no basis in reality.
Companies will always pay the very least possible wages for maximum work. Employees will of course seek the highest wages and benefits for minimum effort. They meet somewhere in the middle.
The one factor that companies generally can't alter is taxation and regulation. They can sometimes get an abatement from a community hungry for jobs, but local and state governments are famous for reneging on such agreements a year or two later when a new party comes into power and it's too late for the company to uproot and move elsewhere.
Regarding the IT job sector, gradually we are moving toward a much more decentralized system where much of the non-hardware work can be done remotely. Whether it's done by someone working the night shift in Mumbai or a local person 5 miles away is largely a question of money these days.
Wages in IT are definitely depressed compared to 10-15 years ago. That's how it goes. Some other field will become lucrative even as IT becomes commoditized. I don't know what, maybe mobile apps consulting or multimedia installation.
For example, lots of schools are putting in these giant touchscreens, really cool educational devices which undoubtedly come with IT problems to solve. Also, schools are buying iPads. There's plenty of upside left for those who are creative and on the ball.
Good luck to everybody; it's definitely a tough market these days.
it's = "it is"; its = possessive. E.g., it's flapping its wings.
So you're a salesperson. Fine. Why insist that engineers be salespeople as well? And if you're NOT a salesperson, and you're selling, who's doing the engineering?
There used to be this concept called 'division of labor'. Some people were good at engineering, not so good at talking to customers. You hired them to do engineering. Some people were better at talking to customers, you hired them to do sales or marketing or some other customer-facing task. Now the standard line is that to get hired as an engineer you have to be able to do everything. Well, gee, boss, if I could do it all, what do I need you for? I'll start my own damn business.
At the same time, no one is demanding the salespeople troubleshoot network issues or write code.
From the article: " and she likes the fact that the firm hires U.S.-based people, even if they have no background in IT. " Seems they still want to hire unqualified people to do IT-type phone support. This quote also means they're not paying squat either "For example, new hires at CrossUSA typically make 30 to 40 percent less than what they earned in their previous IT job. "
Ooohh Share Cropping. That's what I want my kids to do. Are you F'ing nuts?!?
By your own admission the company that set up the plant is the best choice the people have and you want to knock the company for that? WTF!
You sound like my idiot brother who was whining that my dad was trying to "bribe" him to take out the trash. That's the type of attitude that should be unemployed.
For years the American public has been duped into believing that our manufacturing jobs would be shipped overseas, but we would all be retrained for high tech jobs. Poor overseas workers would become richer, we'd be better trained and better paid, and everything would be a free-market utopia.
Oops.
Turns out, you can virtualize all of those servers. Host them physically somewhere like Iceland, with cheap electricity and no cooling costs, and then have them managed by for 10 rupees an hour by a systems engineer in India.
I would suggest we all go back for more job training, but what's left? We could all become brain surgeons, but big business has half this country acting lobotomized already...
--- Generation X: The first generation to have SIG lines inferior to their parents... ---
We have a medium sized data center in wyoming and are working to build a large one. We cannot find qualified staff, no one will take the lower pay (no state income tax) or even move up here, it is a serious problem.
Aren't you supposed to figure these things out before you decide to build a data center?
I work in IT for a company that is located in a rural area. They started their business here and as they have grown over the years, they remain here for their HQ, even though they are global now. It's terrible. Sure the lack of traffic is nice, but that is about all.
Here are some realities:
1. They want you to work as if you are in some overseas sweatshop.
2. They run beyond lean but with global reach that means essentially 12-20 hour days are the norm. No comp time.
3. They do not attract top talent because of their location, while some want to get away from the city, many do not.
4. They generally are looking to avoid things like unions and costs like healthcare... I was told by HR to not even use the healthcare and instead use the clinics in Walgreens, etc. (I am expected to work 50+ hours and travel like mad, and accep tthat even if I pay for healthcare I'd be better off at some pharmacy clinic for my health.)
5. Free parking. That's another plus. FWIW.
I've been in IT for over 15 years and the writing is on the wall, this industry has become a joke. If you value any semblance of a normal life and family it's almost impossible with 24x7 on-call, travel, running so lean there is nothing but bone, extreme pressure, slashed budgets... I could go on. I value my life and time more than a paycheck, and it's coming close to the point where I make a move out of IT and into something a bit more sane.
http://teasphere.wordpress.com - A little spot of tea
from 5 years ago...
August 28, 2005 CrossUSA Gets National Attention I have had a few postings on the outsourcing of tech jobs to rural America, a couple of them mentioning CrossUSA. Here is a link to a SlashDot posting sourcing ABC.com. The article is standard information on CrossUSA but the conversation that follows that is very interesting.
I'd have a personalized plate on my car, but "toxic bachelor" won't fit into 7 letters.
That's actually a real surname? Raper?
I might be tempted to change my name.
I live in a town with 2.5k people. I telecommute for an international corporation. I make 3x the normal income for this area. I have a group of medium to large cities within 30 minutes to 1 hour from my location. I paid $40k for a house which would cost 10x that or more in some areas. I expect to be debt free(including house, car and school loans) within the next 5 years. And that's just salary based. It's not taking into account my investment strategies.
I have several options for high speed internet.
I have several options for decent to excellent medical care.
I go to concerts, museums and such on a regular basis.
The schools are pretty good around here, and since I care enough to supplement my kids' educations with things like fossil hunting, programming and various home science projects, my kids are in the top of their classes.
I can make my own coffee, thanks.
And I can go sailing and diving on my days off.
Now, what exactly am I missing by living in the midwest? The ocean. Other than that, I could care less that I'm not stuck in a high rent, high cost-of-living money sink. I'm laughing all the way to the bank.
All that is necessary for the triumph of good is that evil men do nothing.
everything is farther away which means you need 2 cars instead of 1 or 0. you drive more miles so you buy more gas and spend more on maintenance or buy a new car faster with less trade in value. taxes are less than in places like NYC, but you have to pay for everything that taxes pay in NYC. things like garbage pickup. visiting people who live close to the boonies i've noticed that food is more expensive since you have to truck it farther to the store.
then there are the little things like schools tend to suck in the boonies compared to the big cities and their suburbs. if you care about your kids being in the top 10% of earners then NYC, NoVa or a few other places are the ones to go for schools. there are no starbucks or whole foods markets in the boonies. only crappy mass produced crap. nothing to do other than stay home all day when you're not working crappy internet access crappy medical care. big cities have the good hospitals and doctors
I am in the 'boonies'. We have 2 cars but really only use one.. We don't rack a lot of miles, and when they break its easier to find a neighbour who can help ya out with a fix, instead of paying $85/h labour.
Our taxes are cheaper, and we get Garbage pickup.. the taxes pay for everything like they do in a city.. but its cheaper becuase there is 1800 people insteaof 1, 800,000 people.
We have coffee in the country, it just doesn't cost 5 dollars a cup.. and we have the same grocery stores as anywhere else.. only since its the country the produce is cheaper because its local, the same with the meat..
Our schools are excellent, Country doesnt mean slack-jaw idiots... our schools don't have barbed fences and dont go in to lockdown every other week. Everyone knows everyone else, so the stranger-danger isn't peaking red all the time.. our kids actually get to play.
When we arent working there is plenty to do, and usually its plenty cheap... if we wanna go woop it up in the city, we still can.
We have high speed internet,
We have good hospitals, As a matter of fact I recently had a VERY sick child.. The local hospital did an amazing job, and when it was time for more help it was a short helicopter ride to a internationally renowned hospital (we were lucky to be 2 hour drive away.. but they flew kids in from Europe to this hospital...
So yes it IS cheaper.. we made the switch a few years ago and went rural.. It does have a few down sides, but I love nature and I love open space... I love seeing the stars at night... so for me its a perfect fit...
I've done quite a bit of computer work in rural Kentucky and I can tell you that most of the jokes that IT people make about idiot-users come from there. And that's in office environments...I can't even imagine the Geek Squad types that have to deal with the masses who need to be taught how to use a mouse. I'll take a pay-cut and work in the city ANY day of the week.
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Where in WY out of curiosity... It's a big state.
You won't find a lot of democrats. Many people have, or still do, eat squirrel and don't be surprised if things close down early for the Deer season. Employee pot-lucks are common and usually the older of the female office staff have a hand in organizing things as well as cooking most of the stuff. It will be rare that you encounter co-workers with any sort of a degree. Most have gotten where they are by moving through the ranks. There are a lot of family owned businesses run in peculiar ways. Everyone knows someone who used to own a farm and had to sell it to some Corn King out of California because they couldn't compete. People are generally friendly and pretty easy-going and christmas bonuses are generally in the form of Walmart or local store-owner gift certificates. I wouldn't want to go back to it unless I had to. It's too monoculture-y for me.
boycott slashdot February 10th - 17th check out: altSlashdot.org
How about hi-tech services like affordable, fast and stable Internet broadband services? Cellphone/Wireless, etc.?
Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
I don't know, I'm supporting 2 kids, a dog, a house, two cars and a stay-at-home wife on my salary. Sure, things are tight. But I still can afford a few luxuries - high speed internet and the high-def cable package, going out to a movie once every couple of months, and a fast-food trip or order-out pizza is sometimes debated.
Granted, I live in an area where cost of living is relatively low, but I'm certainly not "rich" by definition (I'm nowhere near a 6-figure income and have very little savings to show for... I'll have to give the savings and investments a few years to grow.)
Then again, I don't smoke or drink alcohol or buy lotto tickets. I'm sure I save a few hundred a month that way.
How do you define crappy internet access?
There are farms in my area that have fibre to the home. The plan is to have fibre to all of the farms in the area over the next few years. The worst case, depending on which farm you occupy, you might have to settle for 5Mbps DSL right now.
Maybe you have fibre running to every NYC apartment, but I wouldn't call the rural services crappy. They are pretty close to being on par, if not better than, what is offered in the nearest cities to me.
Yeah, they can keep on farming their land (that the town council imminent domain'd from them and gave to the big company for free) or they can keep selling the products of their labor (that the plant now sells cheaper by virtue of using unsustainable resource extraction in other countries)!
Wait... what?
Could it be that real life is more complex than your libertarian wet dream?
Maybe... just maybe... ONE SIZE DOESN'T FIT ALL?
I think that the views here for some people maybe out of experience, but I figured that I would shed light on my personal experience. I went from a decent sized metro (about 400,000-500,000 population) to a huge city. In the city I used to live in, I worked for a major corporation as a programmer. I then moved to a huge city, but for a much smaller IT firm. /., so I will let you google yourself to find the results, but the city where I live in, I pay about $900 a month for rent and all utilities (also counting high speed internet) and live in a 822 square foot, one bedroom apartment. For an apartment that size, $900 is not bad for everything. I also live near the south and near the west coast, so I am not going to get gouged for heating bills. My electricity bill is probably not the best, but I am nerd and have alot of electronics plugged in, so that cost would be close to the same anywhere.
I have learned from my experiences doing this (since it seems to be an almost 180 of what you guys are all talking about). I found out that in big corporations, you are only a number. Nobody cares about you except for possibly a few people you know personally in your department. It is all about the bottom line. If you can improve the bottom line, there is a good chance you will get paid more or get a promotion. Don't expect massive raises, but they will happen. Since I came from a "right to work" state, I was fired without a reason (not laid off, fired, as I am guessing it is cheaper to not offer severance or anything). In a bigger corporation, even good programmers can be fired if it helps the bottom line. A good friend of mine was a programmer in the most elite team in a major insurance company, but it was cheaper to let them all go than to pay their salaries so that they could deliver gold (I met some of the other guys on the team, they truly were insanely good).
A smaller company is much easier to work for. You will get raises based on your performance. If you perform well, you get a nice, hefty raise. Well, that is in the one I work for. From what I have been informed, is that many smaller corporations do not really give raises. Just negotiate what you are willing to make for about 5 years and go with that. With the smaller companies (and part of this is because I have a friend that also works for a smaller company as well) there is not that huge fear of getting fired to make the bottom line.Many of these places do not really have a set time for you to show up. Come in and put in about 8 hours and then go home. Unless something you did is seriously broke, extremely little overtime (you are salary anyway, so it doesn't matter), well, unless you are a networking or systems admin guy. I am coming from a programmer background, so I am informing about that aspect. Show up when you want, leave when you want, and just do what you enjoy. I love programming, and am in a job where I truly feel like there is no stress here. I am here to program, and I love doing it.
My friend who also works for a small company has told me countless times he is the same way.
The only big downers of small companies is the pay. You can negotiate pay if you want, but do not expect a big raise or promotion anytime soon. In smaller companies, unless somebody leaves the company, don't expect a promotion anytime soon. It is a small place, so there is little to no room for advancement. Honestly, I guess I come from the mindset where if you are worried about advancement, maybe you picked the wrong profession. Being a programmer is an art form. It is something you need to be passionate about. If you are doing it for the money, than you missed the boat by about 5-10 years. Be a business major instead if you just want money. I am being honest. If you truly enjoy being a programmer, enjoy it.
I would not say find a small town, find a small business. I have an incredibly night life where I live (and for a single 28 year old, it is great). There are lots of bigger cities with a lower cost of living. You are on
A small business is the way to go if you love being a programmer. I say this from personal experience
The world is how you make it
I forgot to mention that the cell providers have rolled out 20Mbps mobile service in the area, so that is another broadband option, if you want to go wireless.
Once robots really get going, you're going to see mass unemployment that will make the GD look like a boom. Within the next 2-3 generations, most if not all jobs that have been done by humans for humans for millenia will be ported over to robots/computers. The only ones to benefit from this will be the top 1% of wealth owners. You know, the ones that own more and more of the worlds resources and wealth every year... The rest of us will pay the price of techno-industrialization.
Anyone who doesn't see it or can't admit it to themselves is either blind, scared or foolish.
What will the robots do with all the unemployed, poor and discontent millions?
Thats the real question.
That's all accurate except the schools part. Public schools in rural areas tend to be about the same as in urban areas with regards to scores, except for pockets of much better schools in rural areas. Also, there is much less drugs and violence in rural schools, and certainly not of the organized type in urban areas.
That said, private schools out here suck. We're going to homeschool as a result.
Learn about Photography Basics.
I've lived in the boonies for the last 7 years or so... and most of what you noted varies greatly by place. In my case it isn't as bad as you note.
However: "crappy medical care. big cities have the good hospitals and doctors" +1 you are correct about this!
The hospitals in rural areas - even those in cities with populations of ~20k - tend to kill people for the stupidest reasons... the kill rate is far higher than that of big city hospitals. And since the coroner is a doctor who works for the hospital, they falsify the death certificate as to time and cause of death, so as to not reflect badly on the hospital.
Don't ask me how I know this.
If you were raised in a large city, chances are you will prefer to stay there and will think of all sorts of terrible things about the rural areas. Same situation if you were raised in a rural place. It's purely a matter of preference. Some people like to be in densely populated areas, walking everywhere. They prefer no yard to keep up, the many different cultures around (although I might argue that to see most of those cultures you have to go to the part of the city that they live in, I.E. Chicago's Little Italy, Little Mexico, Little Korea, the "black" part of town). In the rural areas, you get lots of space cheaply, lower crime, traffic, when you drive where you choose there is always easy and free parking. This is just how it is. People almost always prefer what they were raised on, and getting them to change is nigh on impossible.
Spoken like someone who has never even flown over rural America.
What presents them from moving? A lack of money.
It actually costs quite a bit of money to move, epsecially to a desirable location. I don't know too many people that could afford to move from Buffalo County, South Dakota to say Santa Clara County, California. I mean simply paying the movers, finding a home, and rocking until a job is found. That's not cheap. And that's not even accounting for the costs of leaving your entire social network. Add in the fact that the poor typically have lower education and less skills, they aren't exactly going to stand out from the locals competing for same jobs. We're talking about people who live paycheck to paycheck. Save? How? By cutting it down to one meal small meal a day? We have a negative savings rate in this country for a reason.
"Free to keep on doing whatever they were doing before the plant opened"? So welfare? Do you think that rural folks are too "simple" (i.e. stupid) to realize that they're getting screwed? Of course the realize it. It's just that it is marginally better than the status quo. No one aspires to work the double shift at Walmart, but you do it because you don't have any other option. No one says, "I really want to work at some death trap like a Massey Energy coal mine," but they do because that's the only job around. Throw a drowning man a plutonium life preserver, and he'll take it everytime.
Need 2 cars? No. I'm still only one person, and we still can't be in more than one place at a time. More miles? Not really, and they tend to be easier miles with less start & stop traffic.
Pay less in taxes? Yes. Still cover all the normal things, like garbage pickup.
Food more expensive? No. We have things called farmers markets and co-ops. Veggies, meats, dairy, and some fruits straight from the farm. Cheap and fresh. The supermarket in town isn't any more expensive, than supermarkets anywhere else.
Schools sucking? Not really. Smaller class sizes, less bureaucracy. Where you went to K-12 doesn't really matter much for your "top 10% of earners"; as long as you can pass the standardized tests and pay for it, you can still go to most any college you want.
Starbucks? There's one about 20 minutes away, but I'd consider that to be "mass produced crap"
Whole Foods? Again, one about 45 minutes away, but why would I bother when I can get fresher and better quality foods right off the farm?
There's plenty to do when you're not working, it's just DIFFERENT things to do.
Internet access? I still have my choice of cable or dsl; no worse of a choice than the closest city.
Crappy medical care? Not really. Doctors here are knowledgeable enough, and the city 30 minutes away has a dozen or so hospitals to choose from -- everything from really shitty inner city hospitals that are constantly on the verge of being shut down due to nasty conditions, to a children's hospital serving several states, to a couple of different research hospitals associated with universities with pretty good medical programs.
I'll take my boonies over your city any day of the week, and twice on days that end in 'y'.
The freaking heart of the midwest, I make 130k with 5 years experience and no degree (Java Dev). I wouldn't make much more in California or New York City. I don't get how it will be cheaper but I'm good with them bringing more jobs out here. Even though I already have my pick of jobs, it will only increase my worth that much more (since skilled talent is actually hard to find out here). Good plan big corps, I love the concept of going to 200k/year.
WTF Slashdot, why do I have to login 50 times to post?
Because a guaranteed paycheck has a kind of allure that worrying about day to day payments from running a small business lacks.
Uhhh...how about stop reading about it and start living it? Amazon.com or download an e-book or twelve.
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
If we go by averages, your grandfather ate less meat, ate out less, lived in a house that's maybe half the size of the average American house, and stood a fair chance of dying in even a moderate car accident. Seriously, if you want to eat 1/3rd less red meat than average, hardly ever eat out, live in a 900 square foot house, buy the cheapest cars that Hyundai sells, and get your internet access from the public library, there's no problem with the median US household income. What's really changed is that we have vastly over-inflated notions of what an appropriate middle-class lifestyle is, we don't have the benefit of a one-time set of circumstances from the end of WW2, and we no longer artificially restrict the pool of employees by sex and race.
Sorry, if you can't meet a customer, you have no place here. I'm not asking any engineer to do sales. My only requirement is that they be able to communicate effectively, look presentable, and understand the business on a broad scale as well as in the minutiae.
If an engineer is going to meet a customer, I always make sure they are briefed about the situation before going in and provide them my expectations for what I need from them and ask them what they need from the customer so I can prepare that beforehand. I don't want any surprises when we meet, especially on the customer's side.
While no one expects me to troubleshoot or write code, I do stay with the on-site engineer as long as I can to understand his issues and relay them to the customer as well as I can. Any lack of communication skill, any inability to act appropriately, or any unexpected issues damage my business, my company, my customer, and the engineer's reputation in the company. That isn't about separation of roles, it's all about understanding business and acting as an agent of the company, not just being a code monkey.
"....The executives want no employees, yet still want a mass market they can sell to and get big salaries themselves...."
What exactly is wrong with that?
Are you under the impression that companies are in business for the good of their employee's? Ha! Sorry the wake up call was so disturbing.
Look at it this way. Say you have an opportunity to run a company. What are you going to do?
I know what I would do: Automate where I can automate. If I can write a script to replace a person doing data entry - damn straight I'm going to write the script and get rid of the data-entry person. Even if it costs me $30k to have the script written - the end results is $20K annual savings - AND IT SCALES!
To what end? To no end. If I could run a multi-billion dollar company with 5 employees - call me a fascist money grubbing SOB. I'm doing it! It's not even a question.
-CF
I don't know, I'm supporting 2 kids, a dog, a house, two cars and a stay-at-home wife on my salary.
I see this sort of comment frequently. It seems to imply, hey, I'm doing just fine, so what if everyone else is struggling? If only they worked as hard as I do, they could have what I have!
But it's possible that you have what you have because you were in the right place at the right time, got lucky, were born into a nurturing family, etc., in addition to being talented and hard working, and best of all, a slashdot contributor.
Anyway, my point is that we're all interdependent, and we should be concerned for each other's well being.
Spoon not. Fork, or fork not. There is no spoon.
I've been to the Hinterlands and boy is it boring. My level 80 Warrior rusted his armor crying in lonliness.
He who knows best knows how little he knows. - Thomas Jefferson
Who buys your product?
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
food is more expensive since you have to truck it farther
there are no.... whole foods markets
Seriously? Do you know where food comes from? It isn't the Whole Foods warehouse.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go make an omelet with eggs from chickens a friend keeps on her property, tomatoes from my garden, herbs from my windowsill, and bacon from a farm down the road.
After that I'll go ride our horses while I try figure something to do other than "staying home all day when I'm not working:"
We have a medium sized data center in wyoming and are working to build a large one. We cannot find qualified staff, no one will take the lower pay (no state income tax) or even move up here, it is a serious problem.
My dad lives out that way. Tell us who you are, and I just might apply...
What, what?
Read this book.
Shai Schticks:"You don't make peace with friends, you make peace with enemies"
I live in the bay area. even though the econ sucks, there are still choices, here. cost of living is high but there *are* jobs.
alternative of moving to the boonies: you take a job with that one company that sustains the locale. you are now their slave. nowhere else to go if you decided to move there.
sorry but I'll take the land where there are still choices in employment. cost of living is cheaper elsewhere ONLY if you are working. if you don't like that one company in the boonies, you are kind of screwed.
this is the one thing that always stops me when I think about moving. there are only a few centers in the US where you still have choices in tech companies. none of those would be called 'boonies' really.
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
NO STARBUCKS is a pro not a con.
Lol do some checking up on your whole foods, they're mostly mass produced crap. I'll put my home grown (or neighbor grown) veggies against anything you get in your local dustbin whole foods market.
And why would you need 2 cars? I have 20meg down 6 meg up cable for $34 a month. I live about 19 miles for the 3 largest hospitals in my state. I have a 2800 sq foot home with an inground pool that I bought for $149k.
Yeah, I'll take my "Boonies" ANY DAY. Even if I do have to pay for garbage pickup. Fuck my kids being in the top 10% of the earners. If they want that, I'll be sending them to college, earn it.
Nice to toot your own little horn, but you know what? All of that shit can be taken away from you like THAT. All of that shit you just spouted off is only true because you are EMPLOYED. As in, someone gave you a job. That means nothing at all.
So, keep laughing to the bank, if you will, but realize that it can all come crashing down (including your so-called 'investment strategies') without your one little source of income.
Land is cheap and plentiful. Could use methane from cows to generate electricity.
Would not need any cooling 11 months of the year, just vent in air from the outside.
Of course you would have to close the vents 6 months of the year to keep the computer chips from freezing over.
What do North Dakotans do during the summer? On that one day they go golfing.
even if you somehow maintained your salary, exactly what, pray tell - aside from the aforementioned drinking and having sex - are you going to spend it on?
You can order an awful lot of things over this service called...what was it?...oh yeah! The Internet!
;-)
As for what to do with the time? I can easily come up with a ton of hackish projects using internet purchased or recycled materials. Or hell he could even do something as insane as....learn to program!
After experiencing urban, suburban, and rural environments I'll take the quaint shithole any day.
"Bah!" - Dogbert
How do you know this?
I don't like the big city very much (I came from a small town) and my fantasy for a long time has been... no, the other fantasy.... yeah that one... has long been to move to the hinterlands, get a house on acreage, and work from home. To have a company actually support that decision could be nice, depending on how well the dock in pay matched the local cost of living.
I read not long ago about a company that told outsourced IT pros that they could keep their job if they moved to the outsourcing country and got paid the prevailing wage there. Now, that could really suck.
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
Or Vermont.
Your best bet is a place near the US-Canada border - lots of fed jobs require US citizens to do their tech work, and they're usually very scenic with a very low cost of living.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
Even in a bigger city (like the one I live in) there are always FAR more people out there bragging about their A+ certs. and trying to make a go of building or fixing PCs and basic wi-fi networks than there are people who are willing to troubleshoot a corporate VPN or server.
But when I look at it, *I* was one of "those guys" myself. I spent years working as a "bench tech" for little mom and pop type computer resellers or retailers. Truthfully, they were all dead-end jobs, but at the time, I was convinced it was a career path -- and it was what I liked to do! Eventually, I managed to get a corporate I.T. job, doing PC support. The skills required weren't much different, except I actually needed to know LESS - because in the corporate setting, everyone bought 50-100 PCs at a time, all identically configured, and complete with 3 year on-site warranties. The fact I could tell if their problem was due to bad RAM, a bad video card, or defective motherboard was rather irrelevant, as long as I knew the 800# for Dell support and our contract number.....
Mostly out of boredom and a desire to earn credit for "improving" something, I worked on several projects there -- including rebuilding old, retired PCs as "thin clients" that booted MS-DOS, the proper network drivers, and a Citrix ICA client. The company never cared, ultimately, and opted to blow a bunch of money on rather crappy Windows CE based thin clients instead -- but at least I got paid to experiment and learn something new.
Later on? I did work refurbishing a bunch of vintage Apple Macs for a guy. Again, this was something I had NO real experience with, but I figured "Hey, a computer is a computer, right? How hard can it be?" so I fibbed a bit and told him I was experienced with them. I got by just fine, and again - it was a neat learning experience, seeing how Apple designed various systems over the years, and learning the tricks to disassemble all their oddball case styles.
After that, I worked for a small business that did on-site service calls for businesses and residential customers. I ran into several interesting situations there, including Novell networks that needed troubleshooting and office networks with all manner of networking issues. The times I felt like I was dealing with something "out of my league", we paid supposed experts in those areas to come in and assist. And each of those times? I discovered the "experts" knew less than I did, all in all -- and were largely useless. I was always better off just going by instinct and a gut sense of what would PROBABLY fix something. A little trial and error, and lack of fear in trying things went a LONG way. (Just make sure you always document important settings before changing them so you can put them back if you're wrong!)
Currently, I work for yet another business ... this time with a title of "Network Manager", and I run my own on-site service business on the side. I had to inherit a lot of technology I knew little about (such as our Sonicwall VPN, and a specialized inventory and customer tracking system written in Unix), but once again -- I've always found that the most critical thing is to make your employer and co-workers confident that you're able to find solutions to the problems. Google is your friend, and so are tech. support forums on the net! Ability to research issues and dig up/download the proper instruction manuals or documents is priceless. I've been able to pretty much single-handedly keep this whole network going without any big issues for several years now. But if this place only hired based on what I said I knew or did previously? I wouldn't be working here.
So in short? I wouldn't call someone a "turkey" because they know their DDR3 RAM and so forth. That's a good start, because it shows they actually CARE about the stuff enough to learn the "nuts and bolts" of what goes in the machines. The big thing is if they're WILLING to tackle the "unknown" things and have good research abilities to look up solutions as they go along.
You are blaming the wrong people.
We all live in a capitalist system, is the people that work for less that don't understand it. If you are not paid enough, don't accept the job, or try to move to something else. The execs are playing the economic game, why all these people is not playing it? we don't live in a communist system!!. why people is not playing by the rules we have: capitalist!.
-Woof woof woof!
Can't find the OP but just to echo the above reply about the boonies being cheaper. I lived in NYC for 6 years, running a small business.
In NYC your state and local (within the 5 boroughs) income taxes will range from 5-11% between a very high state income tax, local NYC income tax, the new 'metropolitan commuter transportation authority' tax (that's just on businesses/business income, though), and don't forget a sales tax well north of 8%. Add to that a private insurance market that is absolutely terrible because you can just wait to get sick before you get insurance -- they have 'must issue' and can't turn you down for prior conditions (though they can make you wait a year for prior conditions). Your taxes do subsidize your health insurance if you make under $2k a month, which in NYC means you're miserable for many other reasons. Consequently the cheapest private insurance you can buy runs about $300/month for a healthy adult male (more if you want Rx). $300 is actually below the average for the private market in NYC, too.
Compare to neighboring Pennsylvania, which falls squarely in the middle in terms of tax-friendly states (though it's very much in debt right now like a lot of states). I'm in the Lehigh Valley: no local taxes, a 3% state income tax, a 6% sales tax, and a decent-sized insurance market so that I can get health, dental, and vision insurance for myself AND my wife for $200/mo (as opposed to the $300 for just me) -- granted we have a much higher deductible here, but that was our choice -- in NYC you don't HAVE a choice because the insurance market is so awful as the state has driven out most of the insurance business. I wouldn't take 10x as much salary as I get now to run an insurance company in New York.
It was great not having a car in NYC but monthly metrocards are due to head north of $100, so even if you have no kids, between you and your spouse you're blowing $200/mo on transportation, which is a car payment right there. Electricity is heinously expensive in the city as well.
NYC has some good schools, yes, but you and your children will be putting in so much effort to get your child into one of those schools for the 5th grade as the rest of the country does to get their child into college. There are great schools in lots of places around the country ... not a reason to move to NYC.
There are certainly boonies where there are nothing to do but the notion that you have to be in an urban center like NYC or Northern VA or Los Angeles to have the perks you describe is ridiculous. I miss the huge diversity of food and entertainment in NYC, sure, but I had it in my 20s when I could rent and go out all the time -- when you actually look to buy a place and settle down, the math doesn't come out in NYC's favor. Though to be fair to NYC, a lot of that is New York State's fault.
Yeah, we got that. That's, IMO, a problem.
Gee, is that all?
It's all about separation of roles, or the lack thereof. You expect your engineers to have business skills and people skills as well as technical skills.
out in the boonies.
Dubuque comes to mind. I spent a week out there.
Quite frankly, it was kinda nice. Downtown had a decent coffeshop or two (no Starbucks!), and there was 2 bars visible from almost any street corner, and 3 bowling alleys. Food options were a bit limited, but everywhere I went was quite good, especially the steaks.
Heck, I don't think 3 are left in Sacramento now that Crestview closed!
One other interesting note: the local Holiday Inn where I stayed rolled out the well drinks cart, plus free beer and "wine", and let us have at every evening. Now THAT was proof I was not in Cali anymore.
I could have moved and got a promotion and a raise... but I turned it down. My wife would not move. A native San Diego girl, frozen water belongs in glasses and paper cones, not piled man high in streets.
Never answer an anonymous letter. - Yogi Berra
You need customers. With every business only having 5 employees, except for Wal-Mart and McDonalds, who's going to buy your stuff?
Henry Ford famously paid his workers far above the prevailing wage. First, it let him have his pick of employees. Second, his employees could afford to be his customers.
Our engineers make 150K on average with additional bonuses for performance. There is an employee stock option program (still pre-IPO). Medical insurance is fully covered for all family members including domestic partners. Engineers typically work 4 days a week, have the option of working remotely, and are assigned a small expense account to pursue their own inventive interests. We are not hurting for resumes.
We have high standards (now. the previous CEO was somewhat of a spendthrift). We aren't the only game in town, but we are also incredibly profitable, challenging, and exciting. The pay is commensurate with our demands, and we have no qualms to reevaluate an employee's salary if she feels there is a discrepancy between her output and her pay.
If not meeting customers is your priority, that is your choice. We can't afford to have you here.
See past your nose much?
What's the effect when everyone does this? If everyone is unemployed or underemployed, the folks who buy your product are....?
Sure, you can find markets overseas, for a while.
You've kind of summed up the problem with capitalism in a nutshell. You're like a bacteria in a colony reacting only to what's around *you* even as the colony is about to go over the falls. *You* certainly won't start swimming to the right to move the colony to safety. That would take forethought, a wider view, and executive decision making. No, sir. That sort of thing would just interfere with your personal freedom to accumulate more nutrients. Besides, the theory of going over the falls is probably just speculation anyway. The new ripples are just caused by fish. No need to worry about those nervous nellies. I't just a plot to confiscate your hard won nutrients.
Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
If I wasn't working where I am now I would go for something like this. It would be nice, wake up early go shoot some gophers. Go through the morning, go eat lunch and shoot more gophers. Go back to work then go home, shoot some more gophers. Dam that sounds like the life. I could also walk to work, hardly no traffic, and a great place for kids to grow up. Sounds like my kind of life.
No, I also expect them to do a good job.
But is it hard to communicate effectively? For some people, I suppose so. We don't hire them. They usually don't make it past the first telephone contact.
Is it hard to look presentable? If you're visiting a customer, you only need a nice shirt ($18 at JCPenney), slacks ($20 JCPenney), and leather shoes. In addition, you should also shower, shave or have a neatly trimmed beard/mustache, and your hair should be neatly arranged.
How hard is it to understand the business? Who is the customer? What are we selling them? What is their immediate problem that we are helping them with? If need be, I brief the engineer on these things and expect feedback regarding what they expect are the most likely risks, possible opportunities, and necessary on-site set-up.
This business requires some on-site work. Those engineers represent the company.
I expect the engineers to have the ability to be professionals. I do not ask them to establish contacts, manage relationships, research the buying structure of customers, make proposals, negotiate and close deals, or remain the focal point for customer contact for the length of the customer relationship. I don't ask them to prepare sales material, determine company strategy, find new markets and prospects, or provide dollar amount goals for the upcoming quarters.
I only require that they be well-spoken, present themselves well, and prepare adequately whenever they need to meet a customer. These aren't "sales skills" or "business skills", this is the basic level of professionalism that anyone in a white collar position should have.
Let's face it, if all I needed was some programmer to sit in a cube all day, I can hire a team in India or China for cheap. If you think that all you need is "technical skills", your job will be the next one sent to those places.
The executives want no employees, yet still want a mass market they can sell to and get big salaries themselves.
That's ending as the mass market hollows out. Increasingly under 1% of the population takes most the money and doesn't share it. They are destroying their own market by not contributing any employee/customers to it.
They believe that they can sell to developing countries and that will save their asses. Unfortunately for them, they are also under the impression that after off-shoring industrialized manufacturing and development, they will also be the ones making the stuff. Nope, technology will transfer and local firms will take over. Eventually, companies like Intel, GM, and any other big American corp that has moved pretty much overseas (except for mgt) will be made irrelevant. All those foreign scientists, engineers, accountants and other knowledge workers will wise up, start their own firms, and destroy the old stodgy firms.
And this is *precisely* why patent and copyright law are increasingly featured in treaty negotiations between countries: because all the current executives know quite well that they only hold onto their jobs and paychecks as long as they can make the barriers to entry into their markets so high that they can retire before disaster strikes.
Nostalgia's not what it used to be.
You just referred to people as resources. Doesn't that bother you?
my brain just exploded with the IRONY there and where this was posted
What better place to say it than to your face?
Man, could you be any more trollish? You are saying that they shouldn't spend all their day at /. yet it looks like you've spent at least 10 minutes here or there every other hour from 11 till 2 drafting up responses to people responding to your post!
(Expect a retort about how efficient you are at your job so you can afford these luxuries.)
The point was that you basically state that a good employee doesn't do this 1 thing, you call yourself a good employee, then do this 1 thing. That's the irony he was trying to point out.
And PS:
My only requirement is that they be able to communicate effectively, look presentable, and understand the business on a broad scale as well as in the minutiae.
Do you know how many IT Professionals DO that, and are either still earning shit wages or are out of a job? Just because you've got a sweet gig going doesn't mean you know how it works. If you are so damn confident in your skillset, I dare you to jump around to a few different companies to test the waters, see if you can get a bigger paycheck, just knowing that in 2 years time that the company you work for now will still want you back.
I guess I was being a little too dismissive. But I've seen guys, even with MCSE diplomas, get themselves and the unfortunate businesses that are paying the bill into real binds. The problem with not researching what you're going to do, but rather just sort of winging it, is that some things are not available on Google in bite-sized pieces. You have to be willing to spend a few late nights actually learning crucial parts of the puzzle, otherwise you can make an expensive mess. I worked for a guy who did that many years ago, getting an insurance company to sink ten or twenty grand into OS/2 workstations based mainly on what IBM salesmen had told him was the perfect way to integrate with the mainframes, and it turned out that the terminal programs had enough incompatibilities to make the whole thing largely a waste, and everything ended up being run on the old DOS boxes because not even OS/2's DOS VDM was good enough. He called me in to try to save the day, but after a day of mucking about I told him that he'd need to invest in some proper 3270 emulation software. He was fired a few weeks later, so I have no idea how it was resolved.
In other words make commitments beyond your skill level with great care, and there are things that A+ types shouldn't dream of doing until they've either been trained or got the schooling.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
And was much healthier as a result. Also he had a wife to cook proper meals rather than having to rely on fastfood. His smaller house would have a manageable mortgage and lower heating bills.
How hard is it to write a SQL query?
A professional is merely one who is paid for his work. You're simply using it here to mean "have the set of skills I deem important". You've taken some basket of non-technical skills which you find to be important and rationalized them as universal requirements, which, fortunately, they are not.
In case it isn't obvious to you: understanding likely business risks and opportunities is, yes, a business skill. Communicating effectively with customers is a people skill, and in some cases a sales skill. In your OP, you even said you want people who 'can think as businessmen (as opposed to as "engineers")'. So there's very definitely a lack of separation of roles.
Why the hell anyone would want an engineer who thinks like a businessman is anyone's guess; usually people hire engineers precisely because they think like engineers.
- OffShoring. Your original job with a living wage was shipped over-seas for someone to toil at for 1/4 your wage. Now after seeing whats left of our job market you are happy to go work hard for less money - in bum-fuck junction.
Yeah - thanks to our bought and sold politicians and the uber-wealthy who fund them. Fucking shweet dreams
Its not the years, its the mileage
Your requirements seem eminently reasonable, IMHO. I have no idea why you are getting pushback from the peanut gallery. I can only assume these people are employed at places where their disfunction isn't a major liability. Government, perhaps, or an educational institution. Geographically remote, perhaps. Or they have managed to find technically challenged management to bamboozle into thinking they are essential. The skills you describe have been invaluable in every place I've ever worked, at least the places that were worth working at. The technical people have been top-notch, and were also able to, you know, dress themselves and actually interact with other people. These skills aren't mutually exclusive.
Sorry man, If you have to explain it, it's not funny. :(
- Dan.
~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.
you do realize that you're trying to sell us all on firing the anti-social engineers because you did and haven't shown any proof that it has worked for you? By the sounds of it you don't know how a development process should run.
Here's the deal, you have your sales people (you) who promise a client everything under the sun and don't know how to interface with the engineers at their own company.
Then you have the engineers (the engineers who were fired) who are great at producing stuff but sometimes are bad at communicating with non-engineers.
Then in the middle you have people such as project managers (the "engineers" you kept) who can interface with sales people, clients and engineers. These project managers know how the overall details of a project from a technical side but don't fully understand the code. Some of them may be good engineers as well but they feel they'll either be able to make more money or have less stress or something like that if they aren't purely just engineers any more. These guys will keep you afloat for a little while, while these project managers who aren't so good at the engineering try sinking the ship. Eventually the ones who are good at engineering will leave the company due to too much stress because they basically got demoted. Then all you'll have left is the people sinking the ship.
Wow, I had not know about FlexBooks, thanks. It reminds me of Khan Academy somehow as far as scope, but obviously with a lot of people working on it. That's really terrific.
Example on "The Atomic Theory":
http://www.ck12.org/flexr/chapter/7511
Too bad they picked "BY-NC-SA" for the license as it is incompatible with Wikipedia though. (Although I read somewhere that NC in more popular than not for individuals using CC Licenses).
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
The London Film Festival started last week, movies from all around the world are shown, and around the year we have the Spanish Film Festival, the Japanese, Brazilain, East Asian, Russian, German, Latin American and so on and so foth film festivals.
We have the PROMS (3 months of at least one classical music concert every day, with world class perfromers, tickets are as cheap as £5 or £6). And the LSO. And visiting orchestras an perfromers from all around the world.
We have 5 Premiership football teams ( and a myriad of professional teams in lower divisions).
We have 3 outstanding Opera companies, you can assist to concerts for as little as £10.
Food wise, what do you want? Chinese, Indian, Thai, Japanese, Italian, Mexican, Brazilian, Spanish, French? Have your pick.
And the parks, either Hyde Park, Regent's Parl or even Tooting Common in the less salubrious parts of town.
Argh, please don't tell me life in a small town is better. It is different, but better?
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
And your point is what?
How the fuck does that differ from doing the same job in a big city? Or any fucking job at all? So, yeah, I'll keep laughing.If I lose my job(which I have before), I'll find something else and adjust. Grow the fuck up and quit whining about something you can't control.
All that is necessary for the triumph of good is that evil men do nothing.
Contributors were worried about people taking the works and using them in for-profit works, hence the NC license.
You mean the rules that sell the same pill for 10 cents in india and five dollars here, then make it illegal to buy those pills for 10 cents and ship them back here and sell them for 20 cents?
You mean the rules that made songs that used to become free after 28 years, still be copyrighted after 100 years?
You mean the system that has consistently denied increases in compensation while giving it self a 540% raise (even while driving companies bankrupt and engaging in massive fraud?)
---
The capitalist system works well when there is a shortage of labor. It really sucks when there is even the slightest glut of labor. Right now we have a bit more than a "slight" glut of labor.
We are competing with virtual slave labor and on top of that the normal capitalist process which should be lowering our cost of living has been aborted by large corporations.
I know three college educated people who haven't been able to find a job for over a year. The jobs are not out there and the companies know it and they are taking advantage of the situation.
It doesn't have to be this miserable- it's all artificial.
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
You'll always have a job, and it'll be well-paying, and, btw, the [Ll]ibertarians tell us if you don't like it, you can always vote with your feet, and you're Professional/Management (never mind the only thing you manage is a computer and/or software)....
No, we don't need a union. Any one of us has all the leverage with their employer that, say, all of you together would have. Yup.
Did the tooth fairy leave this fantasy under your pillow?
mark
Eventually, companies like Intel, GM, and any other big American corps
They aren't big American corps, they're big corps and they'll be fine. Management may be one of the last things that they move out of the USA, but they'll do it eventually.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
> They want the work to be accurate.
I have not found this to be true; at least in the last 12 years or so. They'd much rather have it quickly. If it's accurate, that's great too, but not if it comes at the expense of quickly. The usual grind is that management asks development how long something will take. Once given an answer, they make up the number they wanted to hear and use that. Then push the devs relentlessly to get it out by then. Quality slips. QA gets end-run (end-ran?). The product gets put out in SOME form on time, with a conference call or press release that almost always has "high quality" and "on time" in it. The manager moves on, after having received accolades.
Then, as the bug reports come rolling in, the support team does what it can since the original developers have moved to another project, and/or knowing what fate awaited them with the crap they were forced to put out, moved out of the company.
Before you design for reuse, make sure to design it for use.
I have 4 kids 2, 3, 4, and 15, a wife, an 1850 sq foot house, 3 cars (well used and paid for, newest being a 2005 minivan). We have no problem paying the bills and putting money in the bank. We have a 6 month emergency fund, and fund a 401k with 3 percent of my salary, and fully fund Roth IRA's for my wife and myself. We don't blow money like it's going out of style, we stick to a budget, we plan plan plan. Of course a lot of people think they should be able to go on vacation to disneyland every year, drive 2 new cars, have a mcmansion, and still have the same sense of security their grandparents did that generally had 1 car, lived in a small house that they fixed up themselves. You have to delay gratification in this life. Things that come slowly are hard to lose.