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IT's Last Hope — a Job In the Boonies?
GMGruman writes "Offshoring, cloud computing, automation, 'do more with less' — all of these have been chipping away at US IT workers' ability to have a job. But some companies now dangle a new possibility: Move to rural areas for lower-paying 'onshoring' jobs that can compete with lower overseas salaries. InfoWorld's Bob Violino talked to IT workers who've made the move and discovered that although it's no 'Green Acres meets Big Bang Theory' experience, a move from the big city to the hinterlands appeals mainly to just some IT worker segments, even as it provides new opportunities for others."
Rather than take a crappy on-site job somewhere, I'd rather have an even crappier off-site one... and a lower cost of living. No commute whatsoever is a big feature.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
I don't know about you guys but after 10+ years of stagnant wages and fierce competition from India that shows no signs of subsiding, I'm finding a new career path...
If you can read this... 01110101 01110010 00100000 01100001 00100000 01100111 01100101 01100101 01101011
It's called Smartshoring. And working from home is called Homeshoring. Can I get WinTheLottoShoring?
Offshoring, cloud computing, automation, 'do more with less' — all of these have been chipping away at US IT workers' ability to have a job.
The only thing here that is a problem is offshoring. Cloud computing, automation, and doing more with less is our job.
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What companies want are cheap slaves. They want to use them like batteries and toss them aside when they get old or sick.
That's why they had laws passed which say labor laws don't apply to computer people (specifically in washington, california, and texas that I know of).
They want 12 hour days.
They don't want to pay benefits.
They want the work to be accurate.
The executives want no employees, yet still want a mass market they can sell to and get big salaries themselves.
That's ending as the mass market hollows out. Increasingly under 1% of the population takes most the money and doesn't share it. They are destroying their own market by not contributing any employee/customers to it.
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
I am a programmer / analyst in the Orlando area and am starting to see a slight change in contract as well as full time positions. A large pharmaceutical distributor in Lakeland is hiring dozens of .Net developers who will eventually telecommute. Contract at 45 / hr then 85k to 90k full time. There are areas around Lakeland that would make the boondocks look like New York City.
The other thing I am finding is that, while you don't have be a salesperson, having some level of social skills and the ability to work with clients makes a big difference. Unfortunately I know a lot of computer programmers who would sooner stick a red hot poker in their ear than have to deal with clients or management.
What the hell do you think they were doing before the plant opened? And what do you think prevents them from quitting and moving to the city as rural people have been doing for 150 years? People in towns that these companies move into are free to keep on doing whatever they were doing before the plant opened, or take a job at the plant. That is choice.
Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
If you're not tied to the high-density lifestyle, making the change can be nice. I had a 20 year career in Silicon Valley and moved my family to the "boonies". Well, the suburbs of a small city in "flyover territory".
Housing is much cheaper ( 1/3 the cost), don't have the same crime or traffic. Energy is cheaper, groceries a little less. Much less "foot of government" regulation on our backs here. Taxes are comparable (by %).
Where we are, people are generally friendly. An hour to river-rafting or snow skiing, depending on the season. (we have actual seasons). Wide open spaces. Good schools. Surprisingly good food of all kinds.
On second thought, it's horrible here. You wouldn't like it. Trust me. Stay on the coasts.
Then you are misunderstanding the problem entirely. If EVERYONE were a great employee, the need for IT professionals would be even less (because you could do more with less IT professionals) and you'd have even more IT pros out of jobs.
So not everyone is perfect, we get that, that's life. All industries are like that. What seperates IT? It's not like everyone in the sales team has 300% ROI either, but you don't see sales positions being offshored to people in India. That's because your sales person NEEDS to be here. They need to be schmoozing with clients, they need to make the appearance.
Straight up: Not all companies want to pay 10 guys 130K+ a year. Some of them would rather pay 90 people 13K a year. Especially in the positions that simply require bodies: Answering phone calls, debugging, etc.
We went and made Transglobal communication such a simple process that we're now bypassable. Don't get me wrong, IT isn't the only industry that suffers from Offshoring, but it's just ironic that good IT is the reason why it suffers over here.
Being one of a few IT guys in my small town, people are always asking me this or that, and I am able to barter with other local pro's on getting stuff done.
when I first moved out to nowhere, it seemed I was the one guy in town that didnt have a service to offer, now with the introduction of technology to farming, its become quite the resource. From GPS navigated harvesting to PLC controlled feeders and robotic milking machines.. There is a ton of work / money to be made. Sure its not high-finance, but its an essential service and the stress levels are almost nil. With Canada's population density, there is no shortage of rural areas.
The biggest cost savings is in housing costs. Compare similarly sized places and you'll see a big win. Just don't trade up to a McMansion just because your payments will be similar to what you are doing now. Buy what you can be comfortable in.
Check on property taxes as they are really high in some states/counties and that could be a shock.
An advantage of moving to the suburbs of a smaller city in the hinterland is that you will generally have several options for tech employment.
Some of the small towns with 1 big tech employer will have different salary dynamics.
"Going rural" isn't really a new concept. For decades now anyone that's been willing to work in an area that few people are willing to work in can usually get the job pretty easily. My wife's medical class talked frequently about who was going to go work in the farming communities and make 'the big bucks' doing what no one else was willing to do. Sure you're fairly isolated from your typical peers, but those people are genuine and attempting to do real work to provide for their families. Supporting their medical, technological, mechanical, whatever, needs has to be more rewarding than supporting the bulk of urbanites who just want to get paid while they surf their favorite forum / news aggregate and wait to slowly die.
And in many fields you get paid more in remote areas as well, due to the lack of people willing to head out there.
No sig for you. YOU GET NO SIG!
Can we get a new category for articles like these; "labor" or "work" for example. This is classified business, money, and IT, which are fine, but it's about a fairly specific aspect that probably matters to a lot of readers, I'd like to be able to search on it.
What's surprising? My sales for the last 3 years running have exceeded my annual reach goals and has brought in over 102 million dollars over that period. If there is any reason my employer keeps me, it is because I produce.
When we had to cut costs, it wasn't a purely mathematical decision. We had some people with salaries that weren't in line with their production, but we also looked for personal factors such as eagerness to work, ability to mentor, and the ability to meet with customers without making us look like amateurs. Believe me, there are a lot of people employed as engineers who should *never* be allowed to meet customers. We don't want them here, so we sent them packing.
Your posts reeks of bitterness and a "blame someone else" attitude. You think you deserve a job, but you don't realize that you are the one who must prove your worth to a company.
my brain just exploded with the IRONY there and where this was posted
What better place to say it than to your face?
The employees have nowhere else to go, and you can pay minimum wage and really screw them over.
Worse than that. If the plant closes, everyone scrambles to move to another town. Housing values plummet. The only way to move is to let the bank foreclose on your house. Now your credit is ruined too.
It's a chain reaction seen over and over again in the Midwest. It's why so many country songs are about getting out of a small town.
One of our competitors trademarked the term "hypothesis". From now on, we will call them "boneheaded ideas".
Farming
Lack of money. Farmers are know to be land rich and cash poor.
True, although many people in small towns were on some sort of government aid before the plant opened.
One of our competitors trademarked the term "hypothesis". From now on, we will call them "boneheaded ideas".
The executives want no employees, yet still want a mass market they can sell to and get big salaries themselves.
That's ending as the mass market hollows out. Increasingly under 1% of the population takes most the money and doesn't share it. They are destroying their own market by not contributing any employee/customers to it.
They believe that they can sell to developing countries and that will save their asses. Unfortunately for them, they are also under the impression that after off-shoring industrialized manufacturing and development, they will also be the ones making the stuff. Nope, technology will transfer and local firms will take over. Eventually, companies like Intel, GM, and any other big American corp that has moved pretty much overseas (except for mgt) will be made irrelevant. All those foreign scientists, engineers, accountants and other knowledge workers will wise up, start their own firms, and destroy the old stodgy firms.
What will I do? Buy the foreign cheaper products - I have no choice. My standard of living is worse than my Grandfather's. My Grandpa had an eighth grade education, 5 kids, a stay at home wife, middle class home, a car, and had no problem paying the bills. He retired with a great pension and never had to worry about eating, keeping the house, and he still gave out $10,000 a pop to his kids. My Dad supported 3 kids, a house, two cars on one salary. You can't do that anymore.
That American dream is dead, dead, dead.
We're spiraling down to the lowest common denominator: poverty stricken people who will work 14 hour days - 7 days a week and thank their personal god that they can do that because the alternative is far worse.
RIP America
July 4, 1776 - September 11, 2001
No, you CAN have 2 cars instead of 1 because you have room to park them. You may use more gas, but I've noticed that it can be cheaper in the countryside - a major nonfactor. You also may have less maintenance - less start and stop traffic, and no road-salting like in the big northern cities, which degrades the undercarriage.
Taxes are less across the board, and I have a choice and the responsibility on where my money goes. My local politicians also tend to at least be a little more reliable and aren't the big spenders that the cities have.
Food? Whatever. It's not that much more expensive, and I have better access to the fresh stuff.
Schools suck everywhere. That's a function of parenting and teachers, not money. DC throws more money at schools than anywhere else and they continue to be terrible.
Starbucks? Who needs that? I brew my own - better - for far less a cup. Don't need Whole Foods. Lived decently without it so far.
It's not so bad staying home all day when you actually like where you live and aren't cramped up by all the noise and smog and people.
Internet? It gets better every year. Also lived without it for a while.
Somewhat healthier in the boonies - cleaner environment overall. Less stress. Nicer people.
Manufacturing companies discovered that long ago. Build a big plant in Outer Nowhere (but near an Interstate), become the biggest employer in town, and hire a captive labor force. The employees have nowhere else to go, and you can pay minimum wage and really screw them over. Plus, many small towns will give companies huge tax breaks and otherwise suck up.
You make that sound like it's a bad thing. The alternative is to build a big plant in China (but near an airport/seaport), become an industrial employer, and hire a migrant labor force. You can pay $0.50/hour and really screw them over. Plus, many countries like China will give companies huge tax breaks and otherwise suck up.
So take your pick--jobs stay in the U.S., or jobs go overseas. All this talk about "living wage", "decent jobs", and so forth that has permeated our national discussion of economic growth is a bunch of idealistic rhetoric that has no basis in reality.
Companies will always pay the very least possible wages for maximum work. Employees will of course seek the highest wages and benefits for minimum effort. They meet somewhere in the middle.
The one factor that companies generally can't alter is taxation and regulation. They can sometimes get an abatement from a community hungry for jobs, but local and state governments are famous for reneging on such agreements a year or two later when a new party comes into power and it's too late for the company to uproot and move elsewhere.
Regarding the IT job sector, gradually we are moving toward a much more decentralized system where much of the non-hardware work can be done remotely. Whether it's done by someone working the night shift in Mumbai or a local person 5 miles away is largely a question of money these days.
Wages in IT are definitely depressed compared to 10-15 years ago. That's how it goes. Some other field will become lucrative even as IT becomes commoditized. I don't know what, maybe mobile apps consulting or multimedia installation.
For example, lots of schools are putting in these giant touchscreens, really cool educational devices which undoubtedly come with IT problems to solve. Also, schools are buying iPads. There's plenty of upside left for those who are creative and on the ball.
Good luck to everybody; it's definitely a tough market these days.
it's = "it is"; its = possessive. E.g., it's flapping its wings.
So you're a salesperson. Fine. Why insist that engineers be salespeople as well? And if you're NOT a salesperson, and you're selling, who's doing the engineering?
There used to be this concept called 'division of labor'. Some people were good at engineering, not so good at talking to customers. You hired them to do engineering. Some people were better at talking to customers, you hired them to do sales or marketing or some other customer-facing task. Now the standard line is that to get hired as an engineer you have to be able to do everything. Well, gee, boss, if I could do it all, what do I need you for? I'll start my own damn business.
At the same time, no one is demanding the salespeople troubleshoot network issues or write code.
For years the American public has been duped into believing that our manufacturing jobs would be shipped overseas, but we would all be retrained for high tech jobs. Poor overseas workers would become richer, we'd be better trained and better paid, and everything would be a free-market utopia.
Oops.
Turns out, you can virtualize all of those servers. Host them physically somewhere like Iceland, with cheap electricity and no cooling costs, and then have them managed by for 10 rupees an hour by a systems engineer in India.
I would suggest we all go back for more job training, but what's left? We could all become brain surgeons, but big business has half this country acting lobotomized already...
--- Generation X: The first generation to have SIG lines inferior to their parents... ---
I work in IT for a company that is located in a rural area. They started their business here and as they have grown over the years, they remain here for their HQ, even though they are global now. It's terrible. Sure the lack of traffic is nice, but that is about all.
Here are some realities:
1. They want you to work as if you are in some overseas sweatshop.
2. They run beyond lean but with global reach that means essentially 12-20 hour days are the norm. No comp time.
3. They do not attract top talent because of their location, while some want to get away from the city, many do not.
4. They generally are looking to avoid things like unions and costs like healthcare... I was told by HR to not even use the healthcare and instead use the clinics in Walgreens, etc. (I am expected to work 50+ hours and travel like mad, and accep tthat even if I pay for healthcare I'd be better off at some pharmacy clinic for my health.)
5. Free parking. That's another plus. FWIW.
I've been in IT for over 15 years and the writing is on the wall, this industry has become a joke. If you value any semblance of a normal life and family it's almost impossible with 24x7 on-call, travel, running so lean there is nothing but bone, extreme pressure, slashed budgets... I could go on. I value my life and time more than a paycheck, and it's coming close to the point where I make a move out of IT and into something a bit more sane.
http://teasphere.wordpress.com - A little spot of tea
from 5 years ago...
August 28, 2005 CrossUSA Gets National Attention I have had a few postings on the outsourcing of tech jobs to rural America, a couple of them mentioning CrossUSA. Here is a link to a SlashDot posting sourcing ABC.com. The article is standard information on CrossUSA but the conversation that follows that is very interesting.
I'd have a personalized plate on my car, but "toxic bachelor" won't fit into 7 letters.
I live in a town with 2.5k people. I telecommute for an international corporation. I make 3x the normal income for this area. I have a group of medium to large cities within 30 minutes to 1 hour from my location. I paid $40k for a house which would cost 10x that or more in some areas. I expect to be debt free(including house, car and school loans) within the next 5 years. And that's just salary based. It's not taking into account my investment strategies.
I have several options for high speed internet.
I have several options for decent to excellent medical care.
I go to concerts, museums and such on a regular basis.
The schools are pretty good around here, and since I care enough to supplement my kids' educations with things like fossil hunting, programming and various home science projects, my kids are in the top of their classes.
I can make my own coffee, thanks.
And I can go sailing and diving on my days off.
Now, what exactly am I missing by living in the midwest? The ocean. Other than that, I could care less that I'm not stuck in a high rent, high cost-of-living money sink. I'm laughing all the way to the bank.
All that is necessary for the triumph of good is that evil men do nothing.
everything is farther away which means you need 2 cars instead of 1 or 0. you drive more miles so you buy more gas and spend more on maintenance or buy a new car faster with less trade in value. taxes are less than in places like NYC, but you have to pay for everything that taxes pay in NYC. things like garbage pickup. visiting people who live close to the boonies i've noticed that food is more expensive since you have to truck it farther to the store.
then there are the little things like schools tend to suck in the boonies compared to the big cities and their suburbs. if you care about your kids being in the top 10% of earners then NYC, NoVa or a few other places are the ones to go for schools. there are no starbucks or whole foods markets in the boonies. only crappy mass produced crap. nothing to do other than stay home all day when you're not working crappy internet access crappy medical care. big cities have the good hospitals and doctors
I am in the 'boonies'. We have 2 cars but really only use one.. We don't rack a lot of miles, and when they break its easier to find a neighbour who can help ya out with a fix, instead of paying $85/h labour.
Our taxes are cheaper, and we get Garbage pickup.. the taxes pay for everything like they do in a city.. but its cheaper becuase there is 1800 people insteaof 1, 800,000 people.
We have coffee in the country, it just doesn't cost 5 dollars a cup.. and we have the same grocery stores as anywhere else.. only since its the country the produce is cheaper because its local, the same with the meat..
Our schools are excellent, Country doesnt mean slack-jaw idiots... our schools don't have barbed fences and dont go in to lockdown every other week. Everyone knows everyone else, so the stranger-danger isn't peaking red all the time.. our kids actually get to play.
When we arent working there is plenty to do, and usually its plenty cheap... if we wanna go woop it up in the city, we still can.
We have high speed internet,
We have good hospitals, As a matter of fact I recently had a VERY sick child.. The local hospital did an amazing job, and when it was time for more help it was a short helicopter ride to a internationally renowned hospital (we were lucky to be 2 hour drive away.. but they flew kids in from Europe to this hospital...
So yes it IS cheaper.. we made the switch a few years ago and went rural.. It does have a few down sides, but I love nature and I love open space... I love seeing the stars at night... so for me its a perfect fit...
You won't find a lot of democrats. Many people have, or still do, eat squirrel and don't be surprised if things close down early for the Deer season. Employee pot-lucks are common and usually the older of the female office staff have a hand in organizing things as well as cooking most of the stuff. It will be rare that you encounter co-workers with any sort of a degree. Most have gotten where they are by moving through the ranks. There are a lot of family owned businesses run in peculiar ways. Everyone knows someone who used to own a farm and had to sell it to some Corn King out of California because they couldn't compete. People are generally friendly and pretty easy-going and christmas bonuses are generally in the form of Walmart or local store-owner gift certificates. I wouldn't want to go back to it unless I had to. It's too monoculture-y for me.
boycott slashdot February 10th - 17th check out: altSlashdot.org
How about hi-tech services like affordable, fast and stable Internet broadband services? Cellphone/Wireless, etc.?
Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
I think that the views here for some people maybe out of experience, but I figured that I would shed light on my personal experience. I went from a decent sized metro (about 400,000-500,000 population) to a huge city. In the city I used to live in, I worked for a major corporation as a programmer. I then moved to a huge city, but for a much smaller IT firm. /., so I will let you google yourself to find the results, but the city where I live in, I pay about $900 a month for rent and all utilities (also counting high speed internet) and live in a 822 square foot, one bedroom apartment. For an apartment that size, $900 is not bad for everything. I also live near the south and near the west coast, so I am not going to get gouged for heating bills. My electricity bill is probably not the best, but I am nerd and have alot of electronics plugged in, so that cost would be close to the same anywhere.
I have learned from my experiences doing this (since it seems to be an almost 180 of what you guys are all talking about). I found out that in big corporations, you are only a number. Nobody cares about you except for possibly a few people you know personally in your department. It is all about the bottom line. If you can improve the bottom line, there is a good chance you will get paid more or get a promotion. Don't expect massive raises, but they will happen. Since I came from a "right to work" state, I was fired without a reason (not laid off, fired, as I am guessing it is cheaper to not offer severance or anything). In a bigger corporation, even good programmers can be fired if it helps the bottom line. A good friend of mine was a programmer in the most elite team in a major insurance company, but it was cheaper to let them all go than to pay their salaries so that they could deliver gold (I met some of the other guys on the team, they truly were insanely good).
A smaller company is much easier to work for. You will get raises based on your performance. If you perform well, you get a nice, hefty raise. Well, that is in the one I work for. From what I have been informed, is that many smaller corporations do not really give raises. Just negotiate what you are willing to make for about 5 years and go with that. With the smaller companies (and part of this is because I have a friend that also works for a smaller company as well) there is not that huge fear of getting fired to make the bottom line.Many of these places do not really have a set time for you to show up. Come in and put in about 8 hours and then go home. Unless something you did is seriously broke, extremely little overtime (you are salary anyway, so it doesn't matter), well, unless you are a networking or systems admin guy. I am coming from a programmer background, so I am informing about that aspect. Show up when you want, leave when you want, and just do what you enjoy. I love programming, and am in a job where I truly feel like there is no stress here. I am here to program, and I love doing it.
My friend who also works for a small company has told me countless times he is the same way.
The only big downers of small companies is the pay. You can negotiate pay if you want, but do not expect a big raise or promotion anytime soon. In smaller companies, unless somebody leaves the company, don't expect a promotion anytime soon. It is a small place, so there is little to no room for advancement. Honestly, I guess I come from the mindset where if you are worried about advancement, maybe you picked the wrong profession. Being a programmer is an art form. It is something you need to be passionate about. If you are doing it for the money, than you missed the boat by about 5-10 years. Be a business major instead if you just want money. I am being honest. If you truly enjoy being a programmer, enjoy it.
I would not say find a small town, find a small business. I have an incredibly night life where I live (and for a single 28 year old, it is great). There are lots of bigger cities with a lower cost of living. You are on
A small business is the way to go if you love being a programmer. I say this from personal experience
The world is how you make it
Once robots really get going, you're going to see mass unemployment that will make the GD look like a boom. Within the next 2-3 generations, most if not all jobs that have been done by humans for humans for millenia will be ported over to robots/computers. The only ones to benefit from this will be the top 1% of wealth owners. You know, the ones that own more and more of the worlds resources and wealth every year... The rest of us will pay the price of techno-industrialization.
Anyone who doesn't see it or can't admit it to themselves is either blind, scared or foolish.
What will the robots do with all the unemployed, poor and discontent millions?
Thats the real question.
I've lived in the boonies for the last 7 years or so... and most of what you noted varies greatly by place. In my case it isn't as bad as you note.
However: "crappy medical care. big cities have the good hospitals and doctors" +1 you are correct about this!
The hospitals in rural areas - even those in cities with populations of ~20k - tend to kill people for the stupidest reasons... the kill rate is far higher than that of big city hospitals. And since the coroner is a doctor who works for the hospital, they falsify the death certificate as to time and cause of death, so as to not reflect badly on the hospital.
Don't ask me how I know this.
If you were raised in a large city, chances are you will prefer to stay there and will think of all sorts of terrible things about the rural areas. Same situation if you were raised in a rural place. It's purely a matter of preference. Some people like to be in densely populated areas, walking everywhere. They prefer no yard to keep up, the many different cultures around (although I might argue that to see most of those cultures you have to go to the part of the city that they live in, I.E. Chicago's Little Italy, Little Mexico, Little Korea, the "black" part of town). In the rural areas, you get lots of space cheaply, lower crime, traffic, when you drive where you choose there is always easy and free parking. This is just how it is. People almost always prefer what they were raised on, and getting them to change is nigh on impossible.
Need 2 cars? No. I'm still only one person, and we still can't be in more than one place at a time. More miles? Not really, and they tend to be easier miles with less start & stop traffic.
Pay less in taxes? Yes. Still cover all the normal things, like garbage pickup.
Food more expensive? No. We have things called farmers markets and co-ops. Veggies, meats, dairy, and some fruits straight from the farm. Cheap and fresh. The supermarket in town isn't any more expensive, than supermarkets anywhere else.
Schools sucking? Not really. Smaller class sizes, less bureaucracy. Where you went to K-12 doesn't really matter much for your "top 10% of earners"; as long as you can pass the standardized tests and pay for it, you can still go to most any college you want.
Starbucks? There's one about 20 minutes away, but I'd consider that to be "mass produced crap"
Whole Foods? Again, one about 45 minutes away, but why would I bother when I can get fresher and better quality foods right off the farm?
There's plenty to do when you're not working, it's just DIFFERENT things to do.
Internet access? I still have my choice of cable or dsl; no worse of a choice than the closest city.
Crappy medical care? Not really. Doctors here are knowledgeable enough, and the city 30 minutes away has a dozen or so hospitals to choose from -- everything from really shitty inner city hospitals that are constantly on the verge of being shut down due to nasty conditions, to a children's hospital serving several states, to a couple of different research hospitals associated with universities with pretty good medical programs.
I'll take my boonies over your city any day of the week, and twice on days that end in 'y'.
Sorry, if you can't meet a customer, you have no place here. I'm not asking any engineer to do sales. My only requirement is that they be able to communicate effectively, look presentable, and understand the business on a broad scale as well as in the minutiae.
If an engineer is going to meet a customer, I always make sure they are briefed about the situation before going in and provide them my expectations for what I need from them and ask them what they need from the customer so I can prepare that beforehand. I don't want any surprises when we meet, especially on the customer's side.
While no one expects me to troubleshoot or write code, I do stay with the on-site engineer as long as I can to understand his issues and relay them to the customer as well as I can. Any lack of communication skill, any inability to act appropriately, or any unexpected issues damage my business, my company, my customer, and the engineer's reputation in the company. That isn't about separation of roles, it's all about understanding business and acting as an agent of the company, not just being a code monkey.
I've been to the Hinterlands and boy is it boring. My level 80 Warrior rusted his armor crying in lonliness.
He who knows best knows how little he knows. - Thomas Jefferson
food is more expensive since you have to truck it farther
there are no.... whole foods markets
Seriously? Do you know where food comes from? It isn't the Whole Foods warehouse.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go make an omelet with eggs from chickens a friend keeps on her property, tomatoes from my garden, herbs from my windowsill, and bacon from a farm down the road.
After that I'll go ride our horses while I try figure something to do other than "staying home all day when I'm not working:"
Land is cheap and plentiful. Could use methane from cows to generate electricity.
Would not need any cooling 11 months of the year, just vent in air from the outside.
Of course you would have to close the vents 6 months of the year to keep the computer chips from freezing over.
What do North Dakotans do during the summer? On that one day they go golfing.
Even in a bigger city (like the one I live in) there are always FAR more people out there bragging about their A+ certs. and trying to make a go of building or fixing PCs and basic wi-fi networks than there are people who are willing to troubleshoot a corporate VPN or server.
But when I look at it, *I* was one of "those guys" myself. I spent years working as a "bench tech" for little mom and pop type computer resellers or retailers. Truthfully, they were all dead-end jobs, but at the time, I was convinced it was a career path -- and it was what I liked to do! Eventually, I managed to get a corporate I.T. job, doing PC support. The skills required weren't much different, except I actually needed to know LESS - because in the corporate setting, everyone bought 50-100 PCs at a time, all identically configured, and complete with 3 year on-site warranties. The fact I could tell if their problem was due to bad RAM, a bad video card, or defective motherboard was rather irrelevant, as long as I knew the 800# for Dell support and our contract number.....
Mostly out of boredom and a desire to earn credit for "improving" something, I worked on several projects there -- including rebuilding old, retired PCs as "thin clients" that booted MS-DOS, the proper network drivers, and a Citrix ICA client. The company never cared, ultimately, and opted to blow a bunch of money on rather crappy Windows CE based thin clients instead -- but at least I got paid to experiment and learn something new.
Later on? I did work refurbishing a bunch of vintage Apple Macs for a guy. Again, this was something I had NO real experience with, but I figured "Hey, a computer is a computer, right? How hard can it be?" so I fibbed a bit and told him I was experienced with them. I got by just fine, and again - it was a neat learning experience, seeing how Apple designed various systems over the years, and learning the tricks to disassemble all their oddball case styles.
After that, I worked for a small business that did on-site service calls for businesses and residential customers. I ran into several interesting situations there, including Novell networks that needed troubleshooting and office networks with all manner of networking issues. The times I felt like I was dealing with something "out of my league", we paid supposed experts in those areas to come in and assist. And each of those times? I discovered the "experts" knew less than I did, all in all -- and were largely useless. I was always better off just going by instinct and a gut sense of what would PROBABLY fix something. A little trial and error, and lack of fear in trying things went a LONG way. (Just make sure you always document important settings before changing them so you can put them back if you're wrong!)
Currently, I work for yet another business ... this time with a title of "Network Manager", and I run my own on-site service business on the side. I had to inherit a lot of technology I knew little about (such as our Sonicwall VPN, and a specialized inventory and customer tracking system written in Unix), but once again -- I've always found that the most critical thing is to make your employer and co-workers confident that you're able to find solutions to the problems. Google is your friend, and so are tech. support forums on the net! Ability to research issues and dig up/download the proper instruction manuals or documents is priceless. I've been able to pretty much single-handedly keep this whole network going without any big issues for several years now. But if this place only hired based on what I said I knew or did previously? I wouldn't be working here.
So in short? I wouldn't call someone a "turkey" because they know their DDR3 RAM and so forth. That's a good start, because it shows they actually CARE about the stuff enough to learn the "nuts and bolts" of what goes in the machines. The big thing is if they're WILLING to tackle the "unknown" things and have good research abilities to look up solutions as they go along.
out in the boonies.
Dubuque comes to mind. I spent a week out there.
Quite frankly, it was kinda nice. Downtown had a decent coffeshop or two (no Starbucks!), and there was 2 bars visible from almost any street corner, and 3 bowling alleys. Food options were a bit limited, but everywhere I went was quite good, especially the steaks.
Heck, I don't think 3 are left in Sacramento now that Crestview closed!
One other interesting note: the local Holiday Inn where I stayed rolled out the well drinks cart, plus free beer and "wine", and let us have at every evening. Now THAT was proof I was not in Cali anymore.
I could have moved and got a promotion and a raise... but I turned it down. My wife would not move. A native San Diego girl, frozen water belongs in glasses and paper cones, not piled man high in streets.
Never answer an anonymous letter. - Yogi Berra
No, I also expect them to do a good job.
But is it hard to communicate effectively? For some people, I suppose so. We don't hire them. They usually don't make it past the first telephone contact.
Is it hard to look presentable? If you're visiting a customer, you only need a nice shirt ($18 at JCPenney), slacks ($20 JCPenney), and leather shoes. In addition, you should also shower, shave or have a neatly trimmed beard/mustache, and your hair should be neatly arranged.
How hard is it to understand the business? Who is the customer? What are we selling them? What is their immediate problem that we are helping them with? If need be, I brief the engineer on these things and expect feedback regarding what they expect are the most likely risks, possible opportunities, and necessary on-site set-up.
This business requires some on-site work. Those engineers represent the company.
I expect the engineers to have the ability to be professionals. I do not ask them to establish contacts, manage relationships, research the buying structure of customers, make proposals, negotiate and close deals, or remain the focal point for customer contact for the length of the customer relationship. I don't ask them to prepare sales material, determine company strategy, find new markets and prospects, or provide dollar amount goals for the upcoming quarters.
I only require that they be well-spoken, present themselves well, and prepare adequately whenever they need to meet a customer. These aren't "sales skills" or "business skills", this is the basic level of professionalism that anyone in a white collar position should have.
Let's face it, if all I needed was some programmer to sit in a cube all day, I can hire a team in India or China for cheap. If you think that all you need is "technical skills", your job will be the next one sent to those places.
Your requirements seem eminently reasonable, IMHO. I have no idea why you are getting pushback from the peanut gallery. I can only assume these people are employed at places where their disfunction isn't a major liability. Government, perhaps, or an educational institution. Geographically remote, perhaps. Or they have managed to find technically challenged management to bamboozle into thinking they are essential. The skills you describe have been invaluable in every place I've ever worked, at least the places that were worth working at. The technical people have been top-notch, and were also able to, you know, dress themselves and actually interact with other people. These skills aren't mutually exclusive.