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Windows Phone 7 Sales Continue To Struggle

rtfa-troll writes "Even with the pre-Christmas buying rush, Microsoft is already desperately offering a new buy one get one free offer similar to the ones they gave for the KIN. According to the article, 'Windows Phone 7 devices can't even manage two per cent of the fortnight's sales.' These aren't official Microsoft figures; they come from online shopping sites. But since Microsoft official sales figures seem subject to manipulation, this is perhaps one of the better guesses we will get at the success of Windows Phone 7 until well into next year. This also strongly backs up other reports of deeply disappointing phone sales. Even Microsoft supporters have been wondering for a while whether it's time for Ballmer to go. If the sales reports are true, then he may be pushed before he jumps."

351 comments

  1. Less editorialization please by saleenS281 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    BOGO offers are in no way a sign of desperation. WTF is wrong with the submitter, and Soulskill? Android has been doing BOGO's or outright free phones for months/years now. Is it "desperate" or "in trouble" or running with "disappointing sales"? Hey, let's all hate on Microsoft without a shred of evidence, it's slashdot!

    1. Re:Less editorialization please by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Which is funny because if you look at the web stats of Slashdot, 90% of visitors are using Windows computers. LOL, bunch of poseur wannabes

    2. Re:Less editorialization please by larry+bagina · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Additionally, Microsoft licenses the OS to manufacturers (like HTC, Samsung, etc) who sell to carriers (Verizon, ATT, Sprint, etc) who sell to consumers. Carriers take a loss on the phone to make money on the monthly charges for the next 2+ years. Carriers set the "retail" price and BOGO offers, not Microsoft/Google, not HTC/Samsung/LG/Motorola.

      --
      Do you even lift?

      These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.

    3. Re:Less editorialization please by hedwards · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Not really, just because we're using Windows doesn't mean that we like it. But for a lot of us there's an app or service which isn't available on Linux and we haven't paid for Apple hardware so we'd have to go Hacintosh if we were going to use OSX.

    4. Re:Less editorialization please by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      It's gotten to a point where whenever I see a slashdot article about Microsoft, I can automatically assume it's exaggerated sensationalized editorialized crap that doesn't represent anything close to the truth.

      This site has become an absolute joke. I can't comprehend why anyone takes it seriously anymore. It seems the only reason I come back is so that I can laugh at the moonbats who so desperately want to distort reality.

    5. Re:Less editorialization please by theodp · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Samsung Galaxy S (T-Mobile) – buy one, get one free! (Android 2.1 OS). Yes, kind of looks like you need Steve Jobs' reality distortion field to convince people to pay undiscounted prices. :-)

    6. Re:Less editorialization please by bieber · · Score: 2, Informative

      Without a shred of evidence? You didn't even have to RTFA, they quoted sales figures in the summary. The buy-one-get-one offer may or may not be indicative of poor sales, but I would say that actual records of being outsold many times over by your competitors definitely indicates poor sales...

    7. Re:Less editorialization please by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Indeed, I recall just yesterday hearing some advertisement for an Android phone that was such an offer. I might even have seen something similar from the Blackberry. I know I've seen them along with all the various Windows Phone commercials, the only company I've not noticed advertising is Apple.

      I'm sure they have though, I've probably just completely ignored it, wiping it from my memory.

    8. Re:Less editorialization please by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It is editorializing(hardly shocking in a slashdot submission); but extremely low phone prices, on average, are actually a rather ambiguous sign for the success of a platform, depending in no small part on what the platform was intended to do.

      If Windows Phone 7 was supposed to beat Apple at its own game, the fact that Apple can keep merrily having among the highest 'on-contract' prices with a shitty carrier, while MS has to basically give them away, then this is a sign that MS is failing. If, on the other hand, Windows Phone 7 is supposed to buff MS's mobile marketshare enough to court developers, ideally without hemorrhaging too much money in the process, then contract-subsidized cheap hardware is a pretty logical way of doing that. No matter how good or bad a platform is, its sales will likely be better at a somewhat lower price and developers care about how many potential customers your platform represents. Also, from a pure financial perspective, it strongly depends on who is taking the hit to make the phones that cheap. If MS is getting their licensing fee, and some hardware OEMs are getting squeezed, that will just be business as usual. If MS has been forced to offer a giant pile of 'well, legally, they aren't actually kickbacks and subsidies' then shareholder enthusiasm is going to cool, possibly fast.

      Similarly, with Android, if Android is in fact Google's move into Apple's territory, then the continued low average handset price, and comparatively small market for the Google-blessed 'flagship' models is bad news. On the other hand, if(as was commonly suggested originally) Android is intended as a relatively low-cost way of kicking the dumbphones of the world in the ass and onto the internet, where they can then be used to look at Google ads, then a low handset selling price is actually a feature.

    9. Re:Less editorialization please by tomhudson · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Which is funny because if you look at the web stats of Slashdot, 90% of visitors are using Windows computers. LOL, bunch of poseur wannabes

      [citation needed]

      Yes, a large portion of the visitors to slashdot use Windows. Then again, when compared to the general population, a large portion don't.

      That so many Windows users see value in, and frequent, a site that is definitely pro-linux/bsd/open source, and what is arguably, even with all the "web 2.0" junk, the most influential tech forum on the net, says that Ballmer is right when Microsoft tells the SEC that linux and open source are the biggest threat to Microsoft.

      Think about it - even with less than 1% of the desktop, and being distributed for free, it's more of a threat than Apple, who are worth more than Microsoft.

      I don't call them poseur wannabes - I call them fresh blood :-)

      The alternative would be an echo chamber.

    10. Re:Less editorialization please by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Say hi to Ballmer if you pass him in the hall...

    11. Re:Less editorialization please by saleenS281 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Comparing a brand-new phone to ones that already have market-momentum is brain-dead, as has already been discussed on this forum. Android sold nowhere near as many phones their first day/week/month when it first came out. iPhone wasn't much better.

    12. Re:Less editorialization please by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

      LOL, so predictable. Say anything pointing out this sites insane bias, and you get accused of being a Microsoft employee. Awesome. Couldn't be further from the truth.

      Just keep jerking off in the echo-chamber. And every year you'll still wonder why Loonix still isn't accepted by anyone except sad pathetic nerds.

    13. Re:Less editorialization please by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which is funny because if you look at the web stats of Slashdot, 90% of visitors are using Windows computers. LOL, bunch of poseur wannabes

      [citation needed]

      Yes, a large portion of the visitors to slashdot use Windows (at work). Then again, when compared to the general population, a large portion don't at home.

      People goofing off at work are generally forced to use windows by company rules. People choose what they want at home. A massive difference.

    14. Re:Less editorialization please by OzPeter · · Score: 1

      WTF is wrong with ... Soulskill?

      I thought we established the other day that soulskill was a kdawson sock-puppet.

      --
      I am Slashdot. Are you Slashdot as well?
    15. Re:Less editorialization please by rmcd · · Score: 5, Informative

      Unless I'm missing something, it's a highly misleading summary. In the TFA, the quoted figures are from a UK price comparison site. It's not sales, it's site visitors comparing phones.

      There is a discussion of sales, but it's from an article dated Nov 9.

      This is an embarrassing post, even by Slashdot standards.

    16. Re:Less editorialization please by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Somehow I'm not surprised that some jackass would mod that troll. What's next modding something troll for pointing out the sky is blue?

    17. Re:Less editorialization please by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Without a shred of evidence? You didn't even have to RTFA, they quoted sales figures in the summary.

      No they didn't. They quoted statistics from a press release from a niche price comparison site that I guess most people here now using it as gospel had never seen or heard about before.

      If you look at the rest of the numbers they have (70% of phones sold are smartphones, 30% are Android, 7% iPhones (!), 9% Symbian, etc) it is clearly junk data, released from an obscure site to generate PR for themselves.

    18. Re:Less editorialization please by Macthorpe · · Score: 2, Informative

      Even better than that, the phones they're offering are the HTC Surround, LG Quantum or the Samsung Focus - not the more popular phones such as the Omnia or the HD7, which one can learn from other sources are selling like the proverbial hot cakes.

      A poor attempt, really.

      --
      "It does not do to leave a live dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him." - Tolkien
    19. Re:Less editorialization please by camperslo · · Score: 1

      Which is funny because if you look at the web stats of Slashdot, 90% of visitors are using Windows computers.

      You were expecting sinners to be kicked out of the church of the Penguin and the Leopard?

      In the spirit of the season and transition, welcome the followers of the Turkey as we sacrifice it!

    20. Re:Less editorialization please by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      If there is room in your heart, there is room on your hard drive. Embrace your inner penguin.

    21. Re:Less editorialization please by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which is funny because if you look at the web stats of Slashdot, 90% of visitors are using Windows computers.

      What's really telling is not which one you have, but which one you think about when you masturbate.

    22. Re:Less editorialization please by mrclisdue · · Score: 1

      Alas: Windows, Linux, Apple, Hacintosh, OSX...all in a single paragraph. How can there not be something trollish?

    23. Re:Less editorialization please by Threni · · Score: 4, Funny

      > BOGO offers are in no way a sign of desperation.

      Exactly. It's why you often see BOGOF offers on PS3s, digital cameras etc. It's what you do when your product is a runaway success and you can't keep up with demand.

    24. Re:Less editorialization please by ColdWetDog · · Score: 4, Funny

      Which is funny because if you look at the web stats of Slashdot, 90% of visitors are using Windows computers. LOL, bunch of poseur wannabes

      Love the sinner, hate the sin.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    25. Re:Less editorialization please by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Comparing a brand-new phone to ones that already have market-momentum is brain-dead, as has already been discussed on this forum.

      And, this is Windows Phone version SEVEN, as clearly described in the name of the product. This might be a brand-new phone to mobile application developers, but for the other 99.9% of the people this is just a new revision of the same old horrible Windows phone operating systems.

      It doesn't help at all that this phone is being advertised as "the smartphone for people who don't want a smartphone." Good job finding that marketing niche, Microsoft. What next? Microsoft Fruit Basket 7.0, for people who hate fruit? Microsoft Electric Car 7.0, for people who hate driving?

      It also doesn't help that Microsoft's idea of "synergy" doesn't even bother to include embrace, extend, and extinguish anymore. Instead of eating the competition, the divisions at Microsoft are just eating each other. They didn't make a mobile version of XBox live that works on lots of devices, but works better on Microsoft phones. They didn't make a mobile version of the Windows Media Extender that works on lots of devices, but works better on Microsoft phones. Every time Microsoft comes out with something truly cool or innovative, they never let it stand alone. They bundle it to a flailing product, and then act surprised when it all fails together.

    26. Re:Less editorialization please by Alioth · · Score: 1

      Oh really?

      The Windows Phone 7 sold 40,000 units on its first day, according to TFA.

      By contrast, the original iPhone sold (on June 29th/June 30th 2007 - I can't find the "first day" sales figures, just the first quarter which happens to only be the first two days of the 1st gen iPhone's sales) 270,000 units. If sales were evenly distributed amongst both days, that would mean first day sales of 135,000 units.

      It must be a strange world where selling 135,000 (more than 3 times as many) is "not much better" than 40,000 units.

    27. Re:Less editorialization please by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...we haven't paid for Apple hardware so we'd have to go Hacintosh if we were going to use OSX.

      Alert: PC users seen smiling suspiciously after giving the Dell Dude a sex change...

    28. Re:Less editorialization please by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just because one product is well suited to marketing in one way doesn't mean others are.

      People park their cars at various parking lots around here, but I've never seen it done with furniture or lawnmowers.

      Doesn't mean they don't sell their cars.

    29. Re:Less editorialization please by node+3 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You don't offer BOGO if you can sell both for full price. You mention that Android is selling well. It would seem that BOGO is working for it and is thus a valid tactic.

    30. Re:Less editorialization please by node+3 · · Score: 0, Troll

      Posting AC then modding your posts Insightful doesn't make them so.

    31. Re:Less editorialization please by DurendalMac · · Score: 1

      Think about it - even with less than 1% of the desktop, and being distributed for free, it's more of a threat than Apple, who are worth more than Microsoft.

      Can I have some of what you're smoking? Linux is a threat to MS in the enterprise/server space while Apple is not. On the desktop, Linux is by far and wide not nearly as much of a threat as Apple.

    32. Re:Less editorialization please by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't know what you're talking about. I use it, my girlfriend uses it, and my mother uses it. My mother is pretty computer illiterate, and she has been pretty happy with the lack of problems so far (with so far being the last 5 years). It's pretty obvious to me that I would have had to offer a lot more support for that machine if it were running Windows. It is only so widespread because of continuing OEM deals that put it on every PC on the market. If there were real competition in that space, Microsoft would have lost a long time ago.

    33. Re:Less editorialization please by zach_the_lizard · · Score: 3, Informative

      There's also the sales of the first Android devices; the T-mobile G1 sold 1.5 million devices it sold before even being released. The same article mentions the iPhone 3G selling 1 million devices in 3 days. Both of these phones are comparable to WP7; it's not like they are leagues apart. They are roughly comparable.

      --
      SSC
    34. Re:Less editorialization please by ToasterMonkey · · Score: 0, Troll

      Yes, a large portion of the visitors to slashdot use Windows. Then again, when compared to the general population, a large portion don't. That so many Windows users see value in, and frequent, a site that is definitely pro-linux/bsd/open source, and what is arguably, even with all the "web 2.0" junk, the most influential tech forum on the net, says that Ballmer is right when Microsoft tells the SEC that linux and open source are the biggest threat to Microsoft.

      Wait, how does a pro-open source tech site having majority Windows using readers prove open source is the biggest threat to Microsoft? You don't know the proportion of Windows users that are interested in Linux, you only know the proportion of tech site readers that use Windows. Are you really extrapolating tech site readership out to the general population?!

      Think about it - even with less than 1% of the desktop, and being distributed for free, it's more of a threat than Apple, who are worth more than Microsoft.

      Because the site with an open source bias has a higher than average open source adoption rate, it is bigger threat than Apple?!

      The alternative would be an echo chamber.

      This site wouldn't exist if it weren't for the forum churn and flamebaiting headlines. There will always be Windows 7, Snow Leopard on 27" iMac, RHEL/OEL 5, Solaris 11 Express using individuals here that disagree that the IT world should revolve around your shitty free desktop software. I don't come here to be enlightened. I come for a fight. Don't be mislead by a fresh Safari hit that the person behind it is at all interested in "switching to" Linux.

    35. Re:Less editorialization please by Anonymous+Cow+Nerd · · Score: 1

      That so many Windows users see value in, and frequent, a site that is definitely pro-linux/bsd/open source, and what is arguably, even with all the "web 2.0" junk, the most influential tech forum on the net, says that Ballmer is right when Microsoft tells the SEC that linux and open source are the biggest threat to Microsoft.

      Think about it - even with less than 1% of the desktop, and being distributed for free, it's more of a threat than Apple, who are worth more than Microsoft.

      I don't call them poseur wannabes - I call them fresh blood :-)

      Actually, I'm a Windows user, I've been coming to Slashdot for years, and I'm not interested in open source, linux, or BSD, and probably never will be, because they don't offer me anything I want that I don't already have with Windows. As a gamer, Windows gives me everything I need - certainly much more than an open source OS. I come for the tech articles and news posts. I would wager that this is true of the general Slashdot population. That's not to say that the number of folks interested in open source isn't higher here than in the general population, as a large number of the articles deal with open source topics.

    36. Re:Less editorialization please by bell.colin · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Because they are all using their corporation approved desktop's instead of working.

      Users not posting on /. from work? You must be new here...

    37. Re:Less editorialization please by Mordok-DestroyerOfWo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's an operating system, not a religion. I'm using Windows 7 right now as I'm perusing /. while avoiding doing some photo touchups in Photoshop. In a few hours I'll boot into my Debian system and continue working on a project in Python. I feel no shame when I use Windows, it's a tool...it's there to aid in completing a job.

      --
      "Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right" - Salvor Hardin
    38. Re:Less editorialization please by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's pretty obvious to me that I would have had to offer a lot more support for that machine if it were running Windows.

      Only because you must be incompetent.

      It is only so widespread because of continuing OEM deals that put it on every PC on the market.

      Or because the vast majority of software that people and businesses use and create run on it. It's the software, stupid.

    39. Re:Less editorialization please by apoc.famine · · Score: 1

      Yeah, it's been getting worse and worse lately. Got a solution?

      --
      Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
    40. Re:Less editorialization please by Threni · · Score: 1

      Yes, you're right. For some products, giving away two when a customer pays for one makes perfect sense, and is not, repeat NOT a sign of desperation that the manufacturer is struggling to stay relevant.

    41. Re:Less editorialization please by mcneely.mike · · Score: 1

      I come for the cows, nerd.

      --
      soylentnews.org Go there to enjoy the people!
    42. Re:Less editorialization please by mcneely.mike · · Score: 1

      Mmmmm..... linux chix.......

      --
      soylentnews.org Go there to enjoy the people!
    43. Re:Less editorialization please by camperdave · · Score: 3, Insightful

      First day sales? What is this, a movie? First day sales are simply a measure of the effectiveness of the advertising/gullibility of the crowd. Repurchase figures are what you really need to look at.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    44. Re:Less editorialization please by Rogerborg · · Score: 1

      WTF is wrong with ... Soulskill?

      I thought we established the other day that soulskill was a kdawson sock-puppet.

      And kdawson is the very small shell script that Taco wrote in 2004 to dupe 3 day old posts.

      At this point, I think it's fair to say that Slashdot has achieved self awareness. It's just not benign sentience.

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    45. Re:Less editorialization please by mcneely.mike · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      And every year you'll still wonder why Loonix still isn't accepted by anyone except sad pathetic nerds.

      .... and corporations, and Google, and Microsoft WTF, etc.

      --
      soylentnews.org Go there to enjoy the people!
    46. Re:Less editorialization please by Crudely_Indecent · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I read /. at work, where I'm not allowed to have a Linux workstation. The servers I work on are Linux though, so it's not like the organisation is anti-Linux, they're just frightened they might be asked to support Linux workstations (not mine of course, but others). Just because someone uses Windows to browse /., doesn't mean they have a choice.

      --


      "Lame" - Galaxar
    47. Re:Less editorialization please by hairyfeet · · Score: 0

      Sure Linux is easy if they have YOU there to be a free admin and do all the BS setting it up. Otherwise? Not so much. Tell ya what, stick a wiped drive (If you're a geek, I'm sure you have some old spares lying around) in their machine and hand them a copy of Ubuntu and let them loose. See how much is working OOTB and how much ain't. Don't give them ANY help at all, see how far they get. My guess? Not far. Now compare this to Windows 7, which my impatient dad who is completely clueless decided to install himself. When I got there I figured it would be a mess, and I'd have to wipe and start over. What did I find? It held his hand, set everything up for him with no question harder than "What name would you like to use?" and "Are you at home or at work?" (for the network), it downloaded ALL the drivers, set everything up, even pointed him to a free AV on first boot. The ONLY thing I had to do was install his Firefox.

      The problem is Linux guys do NOT want to compete with windows, because to do so you will have to make Ubuntu look like setting up a server with nothing but the CLI. We are talking serious handholding, lots of wizards, GUI everything, which just rubs the DIY ethic of the Linux guys the wrong way. Instead they think they can get Joe Blow to "embrace the CLI" which will NEVER ever in a bazillion years happen. Why do you think iOS is a hit? Because it is about as GUI heavy and clicky clicky as one can get. THAT is what the public wants. No thinking, just push the pretty buttons. Hell I bet that "no thinking" sentence just made dozens of Linux guys wince like fingernails on a chalkboard.

      And why do OEMs all install Windows and not Linux? That can be easily explained with an example: Ever look closely at one of those Dell Ubuntu netbooks? Notice anything...funny...about them? Like how ALL the Canonical repos are disabled? why is that? I'll tell you, because even with such a tiny subset of hardware Canonical can't be bothered to do the QA so that if you actually update it breaks the wireless and sound! Oh joy! Do you have ANY idea what the return rate would be on a device that breaks itself on first update would be at a B&M? Geeks do NOT shop mainstream, they DIY and build their own. The people that DO shop mainstream will NOT do CLI and if the little GUI tells them to update and the updates breaks shit, which BTW I haven't seen happen with Windows in years? Well they WILL be bringing it back.

      That is why I'd say unless a Steve Jobs type comes along and just forks the whole damned thing away from the Linux developers, who still can't be bothered to add even a hardware ABI which everybody else (Windows, OSX, BSD) has had for ages, the only real shot Linux has now is embedded ala Android. Notice how Android is ALL GUI, all clicky clicky, all handholding and easy peasy? THAT is what the public wants. While I appreciate the DIY ethic of the Linux guys I sell PCs to the public whom I can tell you a good 99.995% are NOT CS grads, DIYers, or the type that will trawl forums and read man pages. They want a toaster with a screen, and Apple and Windows 7 gives that to them pretty much. I Just can't see the Linux guys giving up their hack-ability to go that route.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    48. Re:Less editorialization please by im_thatoneguy · · Score: 1

      And give me 2 weeks. Dell sold me on this fancy new phone--but won't sell it. How many people are waiting for [insert form factor] phone to have WP7 on it?

    49. Re:Less editorialization please by darkpixel2k · · Score: 1

      Not really, just because we're using Windows doesn't mean that we like it. But for a lot of us there's an app or service which isn't available on Linux and we haven't paid for Apple hardware so we'd have to go Hacintosh if we were going to use OSX.

      Weird. When I found myself in that situation, I just ran Linux anyways. It's free after all. Then I fired up VMWare (free, later switched to KVM) and had a special little retarded area set aside for the one Windows application that I 'had' to have.

      --
      There's no place like ::1 (I've completed my transition to IPv6)
    50. Re:Less editorialization please by pnewhook · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Just because I use Windows on my desktop doesn't mean I want it on my phone.

      --
      Tesla was a genius. Edison however was a overrated hack who liked to torture puppies.
    51. Re:Less editorialization please by thetoadwarrior · · Score: 1

      That wouldn't be a good indicator as I'm sure there are many many more lurkers than commenters.

    52. Re:Less editorialization please by thetoadwarrior · · Score: 1

      When Android launched there was no such thing as an Android phone beforehand. Same with the iPhone. This is Windows Phone 7. While it may look different Windows mobile isn't a new platform and MS isn't new to mobile phones.

      But it is that past history that, imo, holds the phone back. People have too many bad experiences with Windows Mobile or even Windows desktops and hold that against the phone. Quite frankly I think the new interface is fucking awful. Maybe MS thinks it's cool to make nothing fit the screen but it looks dumb to me and seems like a lazy solution to dealing with multiple resolutions.

    53. Re:Less editorialization please by pnewhook · · Score: 1

      It must be a strange world where selling 135,000 (more than 3 times as many) is "not much better" than 40,000 units.

      That's interesting as the Blackberry Torch (love it!!) sold 150000 on it's opening weekend launch and analysts called that disappointing.

      --
      Tesla was a genius. Edison however was a overrated hack who liked to torture puppies.
    54. Re:Less editorialization please by tomhudson · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Think about it - even with less than 1% of the desktop, and being distributed for free, it's more of a threat than Apple, who are worth more than Microsoft.

      Can I have some of what you're smoking? Linux is a threat to MS in the enterprise/server space while Apple is not. On the desktop, Linux is by far and wide not nearly as much of a threat as Apple.

      Two points:

      1. On the corporate desktop side, where the real money is, the threat of migration has been used to induce Microsoft to lower costs, and/or unbundle products;
      2. I've never been, and never will be, a smoker, not even for recreational pharmacological purposes.

      Apple isn't nearly as much of a threat. After all, people who switch to Apple don't suddenly find OpenOffice as their default. And they don't discover that they don't need CALs to access servers, or licenses to deploy those servers, etc.

      -- Barbie

    55. Re:Less editorialization please by MichaelSmith · · Score: 2, Informative

      The times I have posted a link on slashdot to my server I got different results. Windows was there but iPhones were surprisingly popular. Various linux distributions are right up there as well.

    56. Re:Less editorialization please by RightSaidFred99 · · Score: 1, Interesting

      A poor attempt, really.

      This nails it in a nutshell. It's a transparent attempt at FUD. We've been hearing from some people how much of a failure Windows Phone 7 was since 5 minutes after it was released. "Uh oh, after 5 minutes of being released Windows 7 phone has only sold X units, it's doomed!!!!".

      Seriously? Everybody thinks they're so god damned Machiavellian. By posting these articles and having swarms of anti-MS nerds come gloat over the "failure" of Windows 7, do these clever FUDsters think they're going to dissuade people from buying them? It's all just so trite and boring.

      I'm an Android fan right now but I hope Windows 7 does well and when they have a phone on Sprint I might get one. WMP7 is a young platform (WinCE underpinnings notwithstanding) and is missing some features from more mature OS's like iPhone and Android. However, Microsoft is good at one thing - courting (chant with me) "Developers, Developers, Developers". Their tools for developing on WMP7 are already, out of the gate, light years ahead of what Android or iPhone have.

    57. Re:Less editorialization please by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1


      s5# grep slash access_log.2010-11-26 | grep -i windows | wc -l
                  54
      s5# grep slash access_log.2010-11-26 | grep -iv windows | wc -l
                  43

    58. Re:Less editorialization please by tomhudson · · Score: 2, Informative

      Wait, how does a pro-open source tech site having majority Windows using readers prove open source is the biggest threat to Microsoft? You don't know the proportion of Windows users that are interested in Linux, you only know the proportion of tech site readers that use Windows. Are you really extrapolating tech site readership out to the general population?!

      Read what I wrote. It wasn't ME making the claim. Microsoft's filings with the SEC make the claim that linux and open source are their biggest threat.

      Better yet, Ballmer has been saying that linux is the #1 threat since 2001

      June

      Microsoft's Ballmer calls Linux the biggest threat to Microsoft.

      And they also admitted it to the SEC in official filings in 2009

      So, why are they so scared? Because it threatens their stack, which includes Office, their one true cash cow.

      They've never turned an annual profit with servers.

      They've been a complete loss in terms of revenue from HPC, and are abandoning the field.

      Ditto for corporate projects like the stock exchange mess, that they totally failed at.

      Windows doesn't bring in all that much money. Most people simply don't buy it retail. The real money is in the "software assurance" program, and in Office. Get rid of those, and Microsoft is a perennial money loser.

      And linux has been used as a threat to dump the software assurance program, which most businesses don't need, since they can now get by with doing a cheap hardware refresh instead with the money they save. Desktops no longer cost $2k apiece.

      So that leaves Office. The one solid, year-in, year-out, for 15 years #1 profit center. And people are asking "why upgrade any more? What I've got is good enough."

      If you don't need to upgrade, and the vendor tries to force an upgrade on you, and you have a choice, it's time for the vendor to cut prices. Office will continue to be a cash cow for the next decade, but that's about it.

      I don't come here to be enlightened. I come for a fight.

      Well, at least you're up front about your pro-ms trolling ...

    59. Re:Less editorialization please by RightSaidFred99 · · Score: 1, Offtopic

      Yeah, this site is a joke on anything computing related. It's a combination of willful ignorance and laughable partisanship. I hang around mostly to mock the neckbeards, myself, but there are occasional good articles outside the circle of jerking computing.

      I used to post stuff like this anonymously for karma but I stopped giving a shit about what most of these clueless dweebs think some time back.

      My personal theory is that if I post as myself and some angry dweeb can mod me down with his +1 Modding Wand of Bearded Necking and cackle that he "got me", I may be preventing him from putting on his "~> kill -1 $YOU" T-shirt, grabbing his semi-automatic AK rifle, and going on a killing rampage.

    60. Re:Less editorialization please by tomhudson · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It's an operating system, not a religion. I'm using Windows 7 right now as I'm perusing /. while avoiding doing some photo touchups in Photoshop. In a few hours I'll boot into my Debian system and continue working on a project in Python. I feel no shame when I use Windows, it's a tool...it's there to aid in completing a job.

      Exactly. What's interesting is the progression of linux as a viable alternative, not the "OMG either switch or you're a dirty person who deserves to live in a cardboard box above a heating grate" attitude, which, pardon the pun, just grates.

      That's why I call them "fresh blood", and not, as the GP said, "poseur wannabes". Fresh blood invigorates the lineage. Heck, I still use it when I feel nostalgic for some SimCity once a year :-)

      -- Barbie

    61. Re:Less editorialization please by tomhudson · · Score: 1
      One of the sad things is that slashdot had a semi-decent journal system before the likes of facebook, but never pushed it.

      There's quite a community that blogs here on all sorts of topics, many of which are at best only slightly tech-related, but it's invisible to most users because they don't bother looking at posters' journal postings.

      It sure beats the likes of facebook with it's "stream of consciousness in 75 words or less".

    62. Re:Less editorialization please by RightSaidFred99 · · Score: 1

      Yes. Completely remove anyone who has been on the site for less that 5 years or more than 10 years.

    63. Re:Less editorialization please by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      Not exactly. There are no low end WP7 phones. The specs for a WP7 phone close to say the EVO. You are not seeing BOGO offers on high end Android or the iPhone. These are all 199 phones we are talking about.
      So yes I would say it is a sign of things not going as well as expected. Just from my circle I can say that there is no buzz around WP7 phones. They are no on Verizon or Sprint. On AT&T they are going head to head with the iPhone and on TMobile they are they are facing a lot of Android phones including the new Nexus S.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    64. Re:Less editorialization please by recoiledsnake · · Score: 2, Informative

      Utter nonsense. G1 sold 1 million after 6 months. http://news.cnet.com/8301-1035_3-10226034-94.html

      And how can you compare iPhone 3G to the first release of a new platform?

      Also, TFA extrapolates sales from one deals site in the UK to the rest of the world.

      --
      This space for rent.
    65. Re:Less editorialization please by Teun · · Score: 1, Offtopic
      You're 02c ain't worth much.

      Just give some click drone a full Windows disk and a clean computer, I'll bring the chips :)

      --
      "The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
    66. Re:Less editorialization please by hedwards · · Score: 1

      And when backblaze supports Linux I might very well.

    67. Re:Less editorialization please by LordThyGod · · Score: 1

      What *is* a sign of some seriously suck ass sales, is the fact that there has been no hyped up announcement from MS. Like "Vista sold x zillion copies in the last _______, the best selling product of all time!" Ditto, xbox and anything they have that really sells well. The silence is quite telling on this one. And, there are many other legitimate reasons to say bad things about those guys, incompetence in competitive markets not withstanding.

    68. Re:Less editorialization please by sourcerror · · Score: 2, Funny

      So you acknowledged that Linux is a religion :)
      But for going to heaven you have to choose the right text editor too ...

    69. Re:Less editorialization please by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bullshit. Verizon was offering BOGO on the Droid when the Droid was still the big player in the Android market. I guess either your memory is shit or you're spreading shit. Either way, it stinks and you're a liar.

      As far as buzz? Yeah. Not a ton of it. All the reviews I've read seem to be somewhat favorable though. My Droid is going to be up for a replacement here in a few months and I'll be paying attention to the competition as FroYo has been less than the miracle it was touted to be.

      But you bring up a good point that also bites you in the ass... They're still not even out to half their market with their initial offerings. It's still premature to say how well it will do on the market at large. Just as I wouldn't leave my current carrier for iPhone, I won't leave it for WM7 either but they will soon be on my carrier. I see bigger and better things to come.

    70. Re:Less editorialization please by blarkon · · Score: 1

      iPhone 3G wasn't the first iPhone though was it.

    71. Re:Less editorialization please by PyroMosh · · Score: 1

      I'm a Windows user on the desktop. Here's why:

      1. It's the 800 lb gorilla - This isn't the only reason, but it's a big one. The fact that it's dominant means that if I want to find an app to do x, I can. I don't have to write something from scratch unless I'm very, very particular about something obscure. Most problems have been solved already.
      2. It's open. - Lost of people will scream and pull their hair out for me saying this, and if you have a better term, I'd be happy to use it. But what I mean is this: If I want to develop for the platform, I can. I don't need Apple's permission to publish to a finite store. I don't need to sign an NDA to build a binary that will run on the platform, etc. I don't need the OSes source code, I just need to be able to develop for it. From a practical standpoint, that's all I care about.
      3. It's mature and stable. - There are "better" OSes but they're either experiments that aren't stable yet, or they're toy OSes that aren't feature complete.

      This is not a dig against OSS software. It's not even a dig against Linux. I run Linux on all my web servers. Apache on Linux is the tool I prefer for that particular job. For the desktop, Windows is the more versatile tool for me. I use lots of OSS tools every day on Windows, and of course some on Linux as well. But there is this great assumption that anyone who knows better won't use Windows. I do. I can use whatever I like, and I choose Windows.

      That said, I use Windows as my mobile platform as well. I'm pretty happy with my HTC Tilt 2 running WinMo 6.5. But I'm greatly concerned about 7. I should be Microsoft's target demographic, but I've seen nothing redeeming about Windows 7.

      It's closed, you can't access the bare metal, you can't publish software for it without their app store. It's not compatible with earlier hardware, or the other way around. It's missing features from prior versions (copy paste, tethering, hot swapping SD cards, etc.), and worst of all, the Silverlight developing method gives nearly as little exposure to the hardware as writing an HTML 5 / JavaScript application would! It seems to me the only thing you get in a "Native" Win 7 app that you couldn't do in HTML5 / JavaScript is access to the tilt sensor, compass, and GPS!

      Microsoft is successful on some things because they do a good job on the product. Windows is one of those cases. Windows Mobile 7 may be some day as well, but I'm betting not. If they don't improve the product radically, I'll probably look to Android for my next mobile device.

    72. Re:Less editorialization please by apoc.famine · · Score: 1

      I'd go with IQ test showing more than 110, and proof that you're over 25 rather than years registered, but I understand the theory.

      But why more than 10 years?

      --
      Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
    73. Re:Less editorialization please by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey, let's all hate on Microsoft without a shred of evidence, it's slashdot!

      Good idea! M$, I HATE YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111!!11111!!11!

    74. Re:Less editorialization please by RoboRay · · Score: 1

      Every Android BOGO sale involved an older, nearly-outdated phone that they wanted to clear from inventory to make room for new ones. Which older, nearly-outdated WP7 phone is involved with this BOGO?

    75. Re:Less editorialization please by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      It's spelled "hackintosh," dipshit. Wow, your a moron.

      Pretty much anyone reading both of your comments would think you the moron.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    76. Re:Less editorialization please by Dun+Malg · · Score: 1

      You ever installed Windows 7? It practically installs itself. Your "02c" with its snide non-specific insinuations isn't worth anything.

      --
      If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
    77. Re:Less editorialization please by ScrewMaster · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Apple isn't nearly as much of a threat.

      More to the point, Apple isn't trying to be a threat. Not really, in spite of their ad campaigns. Apple is a hardware company that caters to a specific clientele, and to their credit they're happy with that. That clientele also happens to not be the same people that Microsoft is after.

      Apple really has spent very little effort wooing the corporate world, because once you do that, you will be expected to provide a level of support that is far beyond that offered to schools or individuals. In addition, you'll have to supply and maintain an entire ecosystem of corporate connectivity products. I doubt that Jobs & Co. really wants the headaches, and should they? They're already making billions from the Mac, the iPhone and the iPod/iTunes combo, and if they go corporate they'll be competing with commodity operators like Dell and HP/Compaq. Big companies buy from the lowest bidder, and it's pretty obvious by now that Apple has no intention of ever being the lowest bidder.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    78. Re:Less editorialization please by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      It's an operating system, not a religion. I'm using Windows 7 right now as I'm perusing /. while avoiding doing some photo touchups in Photoshop. In a few hours I'll boot into my Debian system and continue working on a project in Python. I feel no shame when I use Windows, it's a tool...it's there to aid in completing a job.

      Very true, actually, and that applies to pretty much anything to do with a computer: programming languages, applications, whatever. If it does the job well, for the right price, that's sufficient.

      Now, let's face it, Windows has a checkered history, and really was never a good tool until Windows 2000 came along, and offered the average user a Windows OS with the NT Kernel. Usability-wise, it's certainly come a long way ... the biggest area where Microsoft really needs to make a more significant investment is security. Whether that's even possible given the requisite support for legacy apps is hard to say. Regardless, there are times when Windows and Windows apps are, in fact, the best tool for the job.

      I think the biggest bias against Windows comes from who we have to thank for it, rather than the operating system itself. For many, it kinda feels like using tools supplied by the Devil, in order to help maintain the Devil's hegemony.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    79. Re:Less editorialization please by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      iPhone 3G wasn't the first iPhone though was it.

      True ... but Windows Phone 7 isn't the first mobile OS from Microsoft either.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    80. Re:Less editorialization please by wrook · · Score: 1

      You only have to see my previous posts to see that I'm as big a free software advocate as you can get. But even I understand that *users* should use whatever tools that work for them. Free software is essentially a *consumer* movement. It is meant to protect the user, not the producer. All of the rhetoric about the immorality of software that isn't free speaks about producers taking freedoms away from the user. If a user values the functionality in a piece of software more than the freedoms they could enjoy, that is unfortunate, but not immoral. There is no way that *using* Windows is shameful. Forcing others to use it may very well be another story... ;-)

      From a free software advocacy position, we need to understand why people like you choose to go through the hassle of maintaining both a free and non-free platform in parallel. Clearly you see some value in your Debian setup. On the Windows side it seems like the "killer apps" (Photoshop, etc) keep you there. I'm willing to bet that the same is not true for the Debian side. What exists on Debian that doesn't exist on Windows? Rather, whether you realize it or not, I suspect that the culture of freedom and/or the utility of open source development practices keep you there.

      Where free software advocates fail is that we aren't able to communicate the benefits of free software to the average person. For instance, when you buy Photoshop part of the money you spend goes into improving the software. When the next version comes out, you buy it, realize the improvements and the cycle starts again. But in free software it is your very use of the software that leads to its improvement. More users bring corporate players to consider using the software and extending it. More eyes finds bugs, poor work flow, and feature opportunities. The more you exercise your freedoms, the better the software will get.

      This is why it is unfortunate that you choose to use Photoshop on Windows. If you, and other people, could get involved in the Gimp it would benefit everyone. Instead of paying for every release of Photoshop (or pirating it, and thereby only being a leech in the process), your efforts to learn the Gimp, write bugs, distribute to your friends, etc become your payment. And eventually it will reap the rewards that you already enjoy with other software on your Debian system.

      But I agree. Not shameful; just unfortunate.

    81. Re:Less editorialization please by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      I'd go with IQ test showing more than 110, and proof that you're over 25 rather than years registered, but I understand the theory. But why more than 10 years?

      You're making the flawed assumption that common sense is any more likely to be found in an individual of high native intelligence than it is among the general population. I've often found the exact opposite to be true. I'm not entirely certain why that is, but I believe it has to to with the very intelligent being able to find complex ways of rationalizing their defective motivations, ways that the less intellectually capable can not.

      I didn't get the ten years bit either.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    82. Re:Less editorialization please by abigor · · Score: 1

      You don't need Apple's permission to develop for the Mac - where on earth did you get that idea? And because so much of OS X's source is available, overall it's more open than Windows by your reckoning. Plus it's demonstrably more stable. So I guess it's now your first choice, right?

    83. Re:Less editorialization please by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Verizon has the galaxy S Bogo and the continuum for even less than bogo

    84. Re:Less editorialization please by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      It's an operating system, not a religion.

      Linux is Wicca, OSX is Scientology, and Windows is Catholicism.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    85. Re:Less editorialization please by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      The inverse is also true:

      Just because I use Linux on my phone doesn't mean I'll ever use it on my desktop.

      LOTD sucks monkey taters.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    86. Re:Less editorialization please by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      Of course he hasn't, how could he reasonably be expected to trash it if he knew anything about it?

      Hearsay is where it's at man!

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    87. Re:Less editorialization please by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't use Windows because I don't want to give money to Microsoft.

    88. Re:Less editorialization please by indiechild · · Score: 0

      You must be smoking crack. You think they give you an extra handset free out of the goodness of their hearts? They'd be selling it the normal way in order to maximise profits if they thought it would work.

    89. Re:Less editorialization please by apoc.famine · · Score: 1

      Well, are we looking for common sense here or a bit of education? If given the choice of the two, I'll take educated stupidity over uneducated common sense any day. Why? Because if someone has taken the time to become educated, they're likely able to judge facts when presented with them, rather than stick to a position that they came into the argument with.

      As a country boy, I do value common sense. But I recognize its limitations - when you add complexity, common sense starts to break down. You need an education and a perspective to make a good decision when faced with a complicated situation.

      That ramble done, I'm glad it's not just me that doesn't get the OP's "no old folks" comment either.

      --
      Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
    90. Re:Less editorialization please by Your.Master · · Score: 1

      You seem to be trying at sarcasm, but umm...yes. Yes, it does sometimes make sense for limited sales to go buy-one-get-one. Especially for something that comes attached to a subscription service with a monetary cost which dominates the initial price. And if it's not a limited sale, well, then that's the price of two and not the price of one, by definition.

      It's a marketing promotion. That's all.

      Note: I have no idea if Windows Phone 7 is selling or not and I've never tried using one. I'm perfectly happy with my iPhone 3GS. I just think that concluding that a product has failed based on a limited marketing promotion put together by a company other than Microsoft for hardware not produced by Microsoft that has software made by Microsoft on it is a bit of a stretch.

    91. Re:Less editorialization please by Eponymous+Coward · · Score: 1

      Nobody? Well, I guess you must be that one guy.

    92. Re:Less editorialization please by PyroMosh · · Score: 1

      I was unclear. Sorry about that.

      I wasn't referring to the Mac when I was talking about permission. I was referring to iOS. To be fair, yes, that means I was mixing metaphors platforms, referring to both desktop and mobile OSes in one rant. But my point stands. Any platform that I have to jailbreak to run unsigned code on is a toy in my mind.

      And no, it's not my first choice. Re-read what I said: I'm not using the term "open" to mean "I can read the source" (though that can be nice), but is there a barrier for meaningful development on the platform? It the platform *unlocked*? From a practical standpoint, that's what open means to me.

      The combination of the number of Windows installs out there and the ease of development of the software means there's just more software in any category you can imagine on Windows. A lot of it will be junk, sure. But in practice, that has nothing to do with the platform.

      I guess you could say my priorities go something like this:

      1. Is the platform well deployed enough to have a diverse software ecosystem? Haiku is neat and all, but despite efforts to get non-native binaries running on it, what's the development ecosystem like for it?
      2. Is the platform locked down? X-Box 360 and the iPhone are both closed to the typical developer from a practical standpoint. In order to distribute anything useful, you need permission of the developer of the platform itself. This locks out the masses, or controversial applications.
      3. Is the platform reasonably easy to develop for? Some people predicted that he "OtherOS" option on the Playstation 3 would be a boon to novel, powerful computing due to the nature of the cell architecture. In practice, the cell's goofy design is tough to develop for if you're a pro, let alone a hobbyist. From what I've heard, Windows Phone 7 is very, very easy to develop for (though it strikes out in other areas), which is a boon to the number of applications one can expect in the future. In practice, this is a function of the complexity of the architecture and the quality of the development tools available.
      4. Is the source code available? The ability to read and modify the source is a potential benefit. But it's not as important to me as the prior three points.

      That's why I like Windows for my desktop. It just lines up best with my priorities. It's also why I'm leaning toward Android for my next mobile OS (Even though I'm already invested in Windows Mobile, and reluctant to switch OSes once I've picked one), and why I use Linux on my web servers.

    93. Re:Less editorialization please by rrohbeck · · Score: 1

      Run a Windows VM so their system sees what it wants to see and you can use Debian all day long. That's what I do. Occasionally I even need Outlook to do stuff that doesn't work in Thunderbird.
      I virtualized the corp installation with VMware Converter and run it under VirtualBox so I can run it remotely via X/NX, I have snapshots, I can rsync the disk image to the big server etc.

    94. Re:Less editorialization please by theolein · · Score: 1

      As of OSX 10.7 and the soon arriving Mac App Store I think developers will be in the same boat as they now are with the iPad and iPhone App Store. Of course, developers can still develop natively for OSX without the Mac App Store, but where do you think all the app sales will be? In the Mac App Store. Apparently Microsoft want to do this as well with Windows 8. I'm beginning to despair and I'm pretty glad that at least on Linux I can do what I want.

    95. Re:Less editorialization please by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      Uhhh...did you not bother to even read the post you are responding to? here let me highlight the relevant part..". Now compare this to Windows 7, which my impatient dad who is completely clueless decided to install himself.". So I have already seen first hand EXACTLY what you asked and it "just works" with NO question more difficult than "What is your name" and "Are you at home or work"?

      Tell ya what, there are plenty of "places" where I'm sure you can get a bog standard copy of Windows 7. Try it on ANY machine less than 7 years old and see for yourself. Hell the damned thing practically installs itself, even my 14 year old boy with ZERO experience with installs was able to take the family pack disc and upgrade his own machine. It took about 30 minutes, had ALL the drivers all downloaded and installed for him, and pointed him to a free AV on first boot. Again just like my dad the ONLY thing I had to do was tell him where to get Firefox and his chat program. That's it.

      So I stand by my statement: Linux guys DO NOT WANT to compete, because to do so would mean you would have to "dumb down" the entire OS and make it more easy peasy clicky clicky like Win 7 and OSX. I have family and customers on both and frankly they couldn't even tell if they HAVE a CLI, much less where to find it. It simply isn't needed for either OS. Do you honestly think if you stripped the CLI out of Ubuntu it would run even 6 months before being borked? hell you can't even find help on their forums that don't start with "open up bash and type" which simply won't sell if you want share. How many Linux boxes have you sold? What was your return rate? Thought so. I have and the return rate was over 80%, because the little GUI would say "updates are ready!" and when they ran it the OS shit itself and broke drivers. Then I either get to A.-fix it for free for the life of the box, or B.-Give them their money back, wipe the box, put on Windows, and sell it as used. Since my time is a minimum $35 an hour just 3 hours of trawling forums and CLI BS means it is MORE expensive than Windows.

      So don't blame us retailers because your OS don't sell. Give the consumer what THEY WANT, not what you think they should have, and watch your share grow. But to do that the whole "hacker DIY ethic" would have to DIAF and I just don't see that happening, sorry.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    96. Re:Less editorialization please by Nursie · · Score: 1

      "This nails it in a nutshell. It's a transparent attempt at FUD. We've been hearing from some people how much of a failure Windows Phone 7 was since 5 minutes after it was released."

      Yeah, yeah we have. And a while ago all we heard in the tech press and in the comments here at /. and elsewhere was how fscking AMAZING it was even though it wasn't out yet. But it sure is awesome, even though nobody's had a chance to use it yet, a guaranteed success!

      The FUD is coming in thick and fast on this one, but frankly I have yet to hear of anyone IRL that gives a rats arse about a windows phone, unlike with android or iPhone. I strongly suspect that when the dust settles MS will have made little to no impact on the marketplace because they're late to the game and don't have a compelling sales pitch. I guess we'll see.

      But shouting about FUD on the anti-MS side... LOL. Really.

    97. Re:Less editorialization please by RubberDogBone · · Score: 1

      That's it exactly: the modern OS is a tool to help the users get stuff done. It does not need to be a religion or a brand or whatever. It needs to let the hardware run and then get out of the way.

      Microsoft still sees everything in a Windows mindset, where you start with the OS to do anything. It not only runs the PC, it is the whole company. This continues into the branding of Windows Phone 7 even though the whole concept of Windows being "folders on desktop" is ludicrous on a phone. To be sure, WinMoFo7 is not as bad at this as Windows Mobile was, where it even had Start button.

      Apple has more or less avoided most of the same problems. There is OSX and the iOS, but there is no attempt to make the iOS devices look or act like the desktop counterparts. Different tools and different approaches for different things.

      Android has no real heritage to worry about. Android only has to worry about obsoleting itself every other week.

      None of these are perfect at just letting users do the task the user wants to do. We're getting there. But it will take a humble OS to do it, one not interested in being a brand per se.

      --
      Sig for hire.
    98. Re:Less editorialization please by Lanteran · · Score: 1

      The inverse is also true:

      Just because I use Linux on my phone doesn't mean I'll ever use it on my desktop.

      Burn the heretic!

      --
      "People don't want to learn linux" hasn't been a valid excuse since '03.
    99. Re:Less editorialization please by Lanteran · · Score: 1

      Have you even been through a linux mint or ubuntu lucid/maverick install lately? It's amazingly easy, you just put in your timezone, disk layout, username(s) and password(s) and it's all ready to go out of the box. Managed to get my parents using it.

      --
      "People don't want to learn linux" hasn't been a valid excuse since '03.
    100. Re:Less editorialization please by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      Then you've never had a $10 to $12 cigar.

      I have two to three a year. They are fantastic. Better than chocolate.

      When you have a fine cigar, you finally understand why the hell people went so crazy over tobacco. They just taste nummy.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    101. Re:Less editorialization please by rtfa-troll · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, lost in the submission, was a link to the exact same buy one get one free offer for Microsoft's KIN phone just before the product was pulled. This seems to be Microsoft's standard tactic in case where their sales just aren't what they are supposed to be. If you think that Apple would offer two for the price of one soon after launch; when people are typically queuing around the stores; you are deeply misguided.

      --
      =~ s,(.*),<sarcasm>$1</sarcasm>,g if any_point_you_wish();
    102. Re:Less editorialization please by rtfa-troll · · Score: 1

      It's sales through the online comparison site. It's also backed up by other sources on both first day sales and on ongoing sales. I guess you have been trolled into embarassing your self by not Reading the Fine Article.

      --
      =~ s,(.*),<sarcasm>$1</sarcasm>,g if any_point_you_wish();
    103. Re:Less editorialization please by Patch86 · · Score: 1

      Apple is no more of a threat to MS's corporate workstation market than Ferrari is to Ford's family car business.

      Apple machines are luxury products. Pricey, high quality, top brand products. Owned by low volume individuals (a few hundred dollars extra isn't much when you're only buying one) or specialist shops (marketing, media, etc.).

      Like Ferraris, people who own them will say they're worth every penny. Like Ferrari, going mass market would be the death of their business model.

    104. Re:Less editorialization please by tomhudson · · Score: 1
      Well, given the choice, I think I'd rather stand near a burning landfill. They'll both make me and my clothes stink, but at least the landfill doesn't cost me anything, and I can always stand up-wind :-)

      -- Barbie

    105. Re:Less editorialization please by mojomarc · · Score: 1

      Still, it's a brand new OS in terms of application compatibility, UI, and hardware. So it is still a new platform.

    106. Re:Less editorialization please by jscotta44 · · Score: 1

      Yep. Provided they don't get fired for installing non-approved software on a computer owned by someone else.

    107. Re:Less editorialization please by jscotta44 · · Score: 1

      I pretty much agree with your sentiment, but take issue with the "pricey" comment. As an example, take a look at iPad and compare it to the Samsun Galaxy Tab.

    108. Re:Less editorialization please by jscotta44 · · Score: 1

      "...in free software it is your very use of the software that leads to its improvement." How is that possible? I thought that someone would have to make a code change, submit it, have it approved and merged into the trunk, the user would update their version, and continue using it. Not to mention that someone would have to submit the idea for the improvement (at least come up with an idea on their own if they are the programmer), and you would need at least one programmer to take up the cause and generate the code, test it, etc.

      By the way, the programmers that generate the code, how do they eat? Someone, somewhere has to put money into the system. Thus Free software is not really free. Rather the costs are hidden and very widely distributed.

    109. Re:Less editorialization please by jscotta44 · · Score: 1

      I curious, what kind of car do you drive? I assume that you built it yourself.

    110. Re:Less editorialization please by Patch86 · · Score: 1

      Fair point I suppose. I was thinking more of traditional comparisons, like Macbooks to Dell Inspirons, or iPod Nanos to the £10 freebies that get given away with trainers.

    111. Re:Less editorialization please by jscotta44 · · Score: 1

      Yep, the Apple kit does tend to seem to cost a bit more. But whenever I do my purchase punch list of things that I'm likely to use, then beef up the (as example) Dell products to have what I need, they tend to cost nearly the same or even more - the the hardware quality is almost always worse! I live in Austin, TX, and have a LOT of access to the Dell products. If you knew the attitudes of the people running the company from the ground up, trust me, you would choose an example other than Dell to compare Apple kit to!!

      As an example, look up the very recent article where Dell employees (from the highest to the lowest) knew that there was a huge quality problem with one of their most popular systems, and purposely chose to not tell their customers (consumer or corporate) about the problems. Rather to try to blame third part software/hardware for any problems and try not to have to repair/replace/refund as many systems as possible.

    112. Re:Less editorialization please by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How can he be incompetent when he would be the person doing the support you stupid fuckwit?!

      And Windows is widespread because of the OEM deals that put it on every PC being sold. Are you plain stupid? Do you honestly think that OEMs put Windows on their computers because people like Adobe don't put their software on Linux?

      To be honest, from where I am sitting the stupid and incompetent one is you.

    113. Re:Less editorialization please by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      I felt sort that way about smoking* until I was in my late 30's then I tried a high quality cigar on a whim on a beach trip. Sitting on the deck, sipping ruby port and smoking the cigar is one of my enduring pleasurable memories.

      But every person is different. If you don't like them, then you don't like them.

      *Mainly didn't see the point of drawing hot smoke into your lungs- could do that over a mesquite camp fire. I think I have less reaction to nicotine than natural smokers. The few cigars I have on my vacations haven't led to any cravings elsetimes.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    114. Re:Less editorialization please by jimicus · · Score: 1

      I can actually understand that. Many people who aren't in an industry that demands real IT literacy don't really understand their computer, they just click the "third icon from the left" or what have you.

      The benefit that Windows (still) offers is Active Directory - or, more accurately, the schema and how Windows makes use of it. Virtually every conceivable configuration option for Windows, IE, Office and a few other products besides is pre-cooked and you just need to click a box in the right place for the configuration to be automagically applied to every PC in the entire organisation. Nothing that slick exists for Linux, and the last thing the IT department needs is a bunch of "third icon from the left" people calling up and asking how to get Outlook under Linux.

    115. Re:Less editorialization please by jimicus · · Score: 1

      Windows doesn't bring in all that much money. Most people simply don't buy it retail. The real money is in the "software assurance" program, and in Office. Get rid of those, and Microsoft is a perennial money loser.

      And linux has been used as a threat to dump the software assurance program, which most businesses don't need, since they can now get by with doing a cheap hardware refresh instead with the money they save. Desktops no longer cost $2k apiece.

      The only reason anyone would buy a Windows site license is not for software assurance, it's because the OEM license has a clause which says "if you are the end user rather than the OEM, you're not allowed to use this as the basis for an image you roll out to your desktop PCs." - there's no such clause on the site license. Having said that, things like DeCrapifier and Ninite make most of the things you'd have to do to have an image unnecessary.

    116. Re:Less editorialization please by jeremyp · · Score: 1

      I really don't understand your argument. You use Windows on the desktop because some mobile phone operating systems and some games consoles are locked down. That seems a kind of bizarre argument to me.

      --
      All I want is a secure system where it's easy to do anything I want. Is that too much to ask ~~ Randall Munroe
    117. Re:Less editorialization please by Threni · · Score: 1

      >You seem to be trying at sarcasm, but umm...yes. Yes, it does sometimes make
      >sense for limited sales to go buy-one-get-one. Especially for something that
      >comes attached to a subscription service with a monetary cost which dominates
      >the initial price. And if it's not a limited sale, well, then that's the price
      >of two and not the price of one, by definition.
      >
      >It's a marketing promotion. That's all.

      So why have no iPhones or Android phones ever been part of a BOGOF promotion?

    118. Re:Less editorialization please by dfghjk · · Score: 1

      One thing you ignore is that those customers require multiple source and Apple has no intention of offering anything that can be sourced by anyone else. If they did, they'd HAVE to compete on price. That's the point.

    119. Re:Less editorialization please by Crudely_Indecent · · Score: 1

      Nothing that slick exists for Linux

      Speak for yourself. The FIRST thing the IT department needs is a bunch of admins that aren't idiot certification mill MCSE's.

      ...you just need to click a box...

      And that's about all MCSE's are good for.

      Any Linux admin worth his salt can automate configuration changes like this. Using PXE it becomes even easier. Added bonus, no worrying about how many seats are in use.

      On top of that, IT can very finely control the applications deployed on the network. If a user doesn't want to use the application IT supports and for which they received training, they can find another job.

      Not speculating, I did it for an ISP.

      --


      "Lame" - Galaxar
    120. Re:Less editorialization please by PyroMosh · · Score: 1

      No. That's not my argument, which is why you don't understand.

      My argument isn't just about why I chose Windows on the desktop, it's why I choose OSes in general. Including Windows on the desktop. But also WinMo 6.5 for my phone, and Linux for my web servers.

      Any OS that's locked down is unacceptable. That has nothing to do with popular desktop OSes (today, though with the popularity of iOS, that could change!). But it is why I consider iOS and Windows Phone 7 in it's current incarnation toy OSes. They're no better than an Xbox or Wii.

      And I prefer Linux as a web server, because it's mature in that segment. Availability of high quality, mature, stable applications are just as plentiful for Linux servers (if not more so) than they are for Windows, and certainly more so than other more obscure platforms. This is also why I choose Windows on the desktop. Being the market leader is not meaningless. As long as the platform is not locked down by vendor restrictions, or needless complications, developers will go where the market is. It's why Linux is the best choice for servers (for me) and why Windows is the best choice for the desktop (for me). It's also why although I use Windows Mobile 6.5 for mobile, I'm not seriously considering staying with the platform unless something drastic changes between now and when I need a new phone.

      I like my phone now. The processor could be a bit quicker, but over all, the form factor is great, the screen size is great, it fits in my pocket, there are plenty of useful applications to do what I want, and I'm not restricted to just running signed apps from an app store. If I want, I can fire up Visual Studio and write my own applications (and I have done this).

      But Windows Phone 7 departs from compatibility with the previous versions. My apps won't run on the new phones without a total re-write. And you can't run unsigned code off the net, you've got to go through the app store. I should be the first in line to buy Windows Phone 7. I've loved WinMo up until now (despite it's faults). But it's not even something I can consider. The platform is so locked down that there are applications on 6.5 that can not be ported to 7 no matter what. The 7 API just doesn't expose enough of the hardware to make that possible.

      I haven't written Windows off 100% yet for mobile, because I don't need a new phone yet, and Microsoft could still change course by opening up 7, or abandoning it and going back to the 6.5 model for 8. But when I do, if things haven't changed for the better, I'll be looking for an Android phone instead.

    121. Re:Less editorialization please by rrohbeck · · Score: 1

      Those policies are not applicable for devs, thank $DEITY. I don't think IT is going to bother what kinds of tools I install - they don't know them anyway. If they complain the answer is "I can't do my job without them" and my boss will back me up.

    122. Re:Less editorialization please by jscotta44 · · Score: 1

      Thankfully, you are in a company where you can do that. I personally know of others where that just wouldn't fly. Also, thankfully, I never have to work in those companies.

    123. Re:Less editorialization please by PyroMosh · · Score: 1

      It's a cute analogy, but it quickly falls apart.

      I can't speak for the person who you asked the question, but I can speak for myself.

      GM built my car. I didn't build it myself. However, GM does not control the aftermarket for my car. If I want to replace my exhaust manifold with a set of nice high flow headers, anyone can design and build those. There are no lockouts to prevent this. Likewise, if I want a nicer stereo, or navigation system, I can just install it myself. Vendors who want to sell me an aftermarket stereo don't need to do so through a GM approved store.

      There are of course other factors (is there a market to support doing this?) but that's just reality.

    124. Re:Less editorialization please by gmhowell · · Score: 1

      I'd go with IQ test showing more than 110, and proof that you're over 25 rather than years registered, but I understand the theory.

        But why more than 10 years?

      Because he can't compete with our sheer awesomeness.

      --
      Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
    125. Re:Less editorialization please by vegiVamp · · Score: 1

      Quite correct. While there is such a thing as a Mac server, when you as a company approach Apple to see what they'll offer for your server room, they'll kindly point you towards various and random third-parties, with the kind equivalent of "we don't cater to your kind".

      Pretty much all enterprise-level tools for centralized management and deployment are provided by third parties who specialise in that kind of stuff - and, in some cases, do a pretty good job, too. Apple itself won't touch enterprise with a very long iStick.

      --
      What a depressingly stupid machine.
    126. Re:Less editorialization please by RMH101 · · Score: 1

      Hint: MS don't sell phones. Phone networks sell phones, usually on expensive monthly contracts.

    127. Re:Less editorialization please by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      One thing you ignore is that those customers require multiple source and Apple has no intention of offering anything that can be sourced by anyone else. If they did, they'd HAVE to compete on price. That's the point.

      Well, I didn't ignore your point, exactly, I just hadn't thought of it.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    128. Re:Less editorialization please by jscotta44 · · Score: 1

      Nor does Apple control the aftermarket for the iOS devices - yet they both do within reason. If you want to purchase a case or different headphones, Apple does not care just as GM doesn't care if you purchase a different stereo system for your car.

      However, try tampering with the guts of the vehicle that is covered by their warranty and see how long your warranty is good. Same with Apple. For example, my father has a heavy duty diesel pick-up truck. A popular enhancement is to replace one of the engine computers with one that has been customized. With a switch, you can adjust whether the engine is running for power, speed, or fuel economy. (I don't know how well the work, but that is the story.) By replacing that one very small component, he voided the entire engine and drive train portions of his warranty. The analogy holds.

      No, that is not exactly the same as the Apple Store for the iOS, but the main points hold up. And, yes, if you do repair work on your vehicle, if they are not "Genuine GM Parts", then you have a very high chance that your warranty can be voided (for that repair, if not the entire engine/drive-train).

    129. Re:Less editorialization please by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Really? Apple SOLD OUT its initial offering of iPhone very quickly. People couldn't get them for months because there weren't enough of them. They had an edge in that they have a very loyal base...though tons of Windows users bought them too. (Oh, and it's a great phone.) Android...you're right...over a year before it gained steam...and now it running hard with growth ahead of iPhone.

      Apple got into the phone market in 2007, Android, not sure when, but I think 2008. Microsoft? YEARS. They are not starting out with a new never before seen operating system. They have a track record. I've not see the Windows Phone 7, it may be great. But seriously, with such a history and 'installed base' with Windows Mobile, one would think it should come of the chute with huge sales numbers...unless people just don't want it, which seems to be the case. You talk of momentum...well, you need to have something to turn the market's head, and it doesn't seem they've done it. And if I'm not mistaken...the Microsoft momentum for their phone market is DOWN.

      So here is the comparison:

      Microsoft, in the industry already, releases a new phone...no traction
      Android, new OS, many hardware manufacturers involved...over a year to gain momentum
      Apple, new to the phone business, units flying off the shelves, can't keep up with demand, when it gets to the leader of the pack it's stayed there.

    130. Re:Less editorialization please by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Um, windows phone 7 is a completely new operating system, it is effectively a brand new product, they used the '7' name more because they want it to piggyback on the success of windows 7, which, even if you hate, was/is a huge success for Microsoft and the fact that it is a success is quite well known. Positive re-enforcement etc.

      Basically they are using a sort of '7th times the charm' mechanic, due to all humans being naturally (bizarrely) superstitious, largely due to the way our brains handle macro-data. As in, we naturally observe a phenomenon that is vastly complex but we attempt to correlate it with much higher level and simpler concepts in order to cope with the immense complexity of everything, generalising is a great example of this.

      Marketing people are quite clever. Especially in big companies like Microsoft (more-so in Apple), but that's not a good thing at all, it just means they are better at manipulating people via a fundamental understanding (or even a blind statistical lack of understanding) of the way people and their minds work.

    131. Re:Less editorialization please by indi0144 · · Score: 1

      I like linux and dual boot my hard drive because theres no way I can run 600 Mb PSD files with acceptable performance on Wine/Linux, since I have paid for Photoshop (and other DP software) and is actually putting the bread in my table, I use windows (7 pro) that is not that bad anyway.

      But that would make me a poseur in his eyes since I should be in $win7forums and not reading news about Linux or alternative software which I Like and support. Because everybody knows YOU HAVE TO USE $OS_ecosystem and not the best tool for the job and if you use other than $OS_ecosystem you're an winluser a macfag or a linuxtard.

  2. Hmm by jav1231 · · Score: 1

    You come to the party late and everyone has filled up on meat, casseroles, and desserts. If you want them to fill that fraction of space they might have left you better bring them something they can't resist.

    1. Re:Hmm by nospam007 · · Score: 1

      iCecream?

    2. Re:Hmm by mea_culpa · · Score: 1

      MS really dropped the ball. But it isn't the first time either. They were very late to the browser game, yet steamrolled ahead and crushed their competition, at least for a while. Same thing with the Xbox, a little late but $billions$ to steamroll again has made them relevant.
      WP7 is not a bad OS, had it made it to market 2 years ago they would be lightyears ahead. I hear the steamrollers coming so don't count them out just yet. MS has a surprising way of defeating the odds with piles of cash and steamrolling.

    3. Re:Hmm by DurendalMac · · Score: 1

      Web browsers were free and bundled with the OS. Wake me up when you get a WinMo phone with every computer or copy of Windows you buy.

    4. Re:Hmm by DurendalMac · · Score: 1

      Also, there was still plenty of room for growth in the console market and MS actually had a product that was, in many ways, superior to the competition. They also had Halo as the killer game. Consoles still hadn't grown far beyond the geek/heavy gamer niche when MS brought the XBox out. This is more like the Zune. MS gets to the party quite late and finds that the market has already solidified pretty well.

    5. Re:Hmm by pckl300 · · Score: 1

      you better bring them something they can't resist.

      Hookers? Yes.. Every Windows Phone 7 should come with a free hooker.

      --
      In the beginning, there was null.
    6. Re:Hmm by Com2Kid · · Score: 1

      Now that would be an awesome promotion!

    7. Re:Hmm by Missing.Matter · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Also, there was still plenty of room for growth in the console market

      And there's not room for growth in the smartphone market? So after 3 years, Apple, Google, and the rest have cornered the entire market, and now growth in this segment is a zero sum game?

      Or perhaps in the US alone, only 20% of the phones out there are smart phones and the numbers are rising rapidly. This would suggest that there is plenty of room for growth, at least in America. I would be willing to bet the global numbers are similar.

    8. Re:Hmm by DurendalMac · · Score: 1

      I'm saying that the market has been largely defined and has gone much further than a niche. The console market was largely a niche for geeks and pretty hardcore gamers. The XBox had superior hardware, a killer game, and helped push that market further into the mainstream (although not as much as the Wii has). MS really doesn't have anything superior for WP7. They don't have a Halo for it. It's just another unremarkable smartphone in a market that already has some highly recognizable brand names. Yes, there is plenty of room for growth, but not if your product can't stand out among the competition.

    9. Re:Hmm by Teun · · Score: 1
      Nah, too expensive and they also carry viruses.

      Just Windows will do.

      --
      "The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
    10. Re:Hmm by toriver · · Score: 1

      The XBox succeeded because Microsoft threw money at it like a pyromaniac throwing gasoline on a fire. They bought Bungie, Rare and other studios that were developing for other consoles, leading to some launch titles that were hastily ported from their original target platform (a process they repeated with the 360: Kameo was originally targeted at the Nintendo Gamecube).

      Office and Windows paid for the XBox and 360, like they pay for everything Microsoft does in other markets.

    11. Re:Hmm by Man+On+Pink+Corner · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't be surprised if it came to that. Not that stupid an idea, really.

    12. Re:Hmm by rtfa-troll · · Score: 1

      It really is an interesting comment. It would be illegal bundling and/or abuse of their illegally acquired operating system monopoly, but they could probably get away with it for up to a year before they would even begin to be stopped. The bigger problem I'd see with it is that it would mean that their phones get into the hands of many "dumb-phone" users; people who aren't interested in add on applications and so will just see the phone as a short battery life, overweight normal phone.

      --
      =~ s,(.*),<sarcasm>$1</sarcasm>,g if any_point_you_wish();
    13. Re:Hmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But Windows is also expensive and carries viruses!!

    14. Re:Hmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not true. Unlike Windows, some hookers don't carry viruses.

    15. Re:Hmm by RMH101 · · Score: 1

      Exactly. Most users are going to be on 2 year contracts, too, so there's a natural cycle in place. MS will have to convince iPhone holders they want to switch, and that's going to take time to gain traction. I went through this iwth Android 0- come renewal time (which was exactly 2 years after the launch of the iPhone 3G) I switched.
      I'm in the happy position that I'm joining MS in the new year so will be getting a Win7 work phone to complement my personal Android phone. Looking forward to dabbling.

    16. Re:Hmm by RMH101 · · Score: 1

      "it would mean that their phones get into the hands of many "dumb-phone" users"
      This is EXACTLY the target audience - the mass market. Look at how many people have the iPhone as their first smart phone. Not geeks/;power users etc - just normal people.

  3. Should have chosen a different carrier by Sylak · · Score: 1

    If they wanted to make any sort of splash, they should have released the OS several months ago AND chosen a different carrier.

    1. Re:Should have chosen a different carrier by xigxag · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'd say the opposite. They should've released the OS later, when they figured out some kind of compelling difference that Windows Phone 7 could offer over the competition. If they can't differentiate over must-have OS features (and a different skin doesn't count) , they should've worked on something like ultra-long battery life, SDXC expandability, unlimited streaming save-to-the-handset music free with a charter contract, or even free copies of Windows Home & Student. Some "top this" feature they could flog over the competition.

      At this point, if someone can't figure a way to be at least 9 months ahead of Apple, they shouldn't even bother to play.

      And yes, fire Ballmer. Let's not kid ourselves, Microsoft is still making money, but basically by sheer brute force, not through any brilliant strategizing. XBOX360 should've cleaned PS3's clock, but couldn't close the deal because of quality control issues. Vista should've run rings around OSX, but fumbled because of quality control issues. Kin1, Kin 2? MS knew those were direct-to-video flicks even before wrapping up production. Windows Phone 7, despite the hype, will be a failure unless Microsoft is willing to do an XBOX redux and take years of real losses for market share and bribe or buy a crapload of hot-shot appmakers the way they did with Bungie.

      --
      There are two kinds of people: 1) those who start arrays with one and 1) those who start them with zero.
    2. Re:Should have chosen a different carrier by obarthelemy · · Score: 1

      they could at least use what synergies they have: i'm still amazed my MS winmob 6.5 HD2 won't synch with MS Live Mail, and there's no more free outlook express for win7. not only that, it generates an error message "can't synch mail" each time I plug my phone into my desktop !

      i haven't really looked into winphone 7, because that kind of behavior towards customers turns me off big time. i don't know if it's incompetence (no one thought about checking that the latest desktop windows and the latest -at the time- phone windows could synch mail ? or at least, fail silently ?) or greed (buy Outlook for that !) but, really, if you're going to leave me with such an issue, I'm not interested in being your customer.

      same with releasing Kin for only 2 weeks... what about the customers who bought it, thinking it would actually be a forward-looking, developped for, invested into platform ?

      --
      The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
    3. Re:Should have chosen a different carrier by tazan · · Score: 1

      Agreed, I bought a new phone last week. I ended up buying a 6.5 phone instead of a 7. Looking at the feature list even WM 6.5 is better more compelling than 7.

    4. Re:Should have chosen a different carrier by jeffgeno · · Score: 1
      An HD2 will absolutely sync with Live Mail. When you set up a hotmail.com address it automatically downloads and installs the mobile sync client that handles contacts and email from your live account.

      Outlook Express has been replaced by Live Mail desktop client on Windows 7. It's not included in the OS, but it's a free download with all the other Live tools from Microsoft. It even appears as an option in Windows Update. That also handles a Hotmail account or any other POP/IMAP mailbox.

      You can't sync email with your phone that you plugged in because you don't have Outlook. But if it's all in the cloud, you'd never need to do that anyway. What's the point of having a mail enabled always connected device and manually sync to a desktop?

    5. Re:Should have chosen a different carrier by obarthelemy · · Score: 1

      backups.
      saving batteries by not having wifi on most of the time.
      saving money by actually not having a data contract for my smartphone.

      what's the point of having a money-sucking data contract, or battery-sucking wifi, when I should be able to grab my mail off of my desktop, the same way I grab my rss feeds, web pages, music, video, synched files... ?

      --
      The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
    6. Re:Should have chosen a different carrier by obarthelemy · · Score: 1

      or at least, I shouldn't see a f**ing ERROR MESSAGE each time !

      --
      The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
  4. Bill by noz · · Score: 1

    Call me. Steve not knowing what he's doing could only last so long.

    If you want a long-term technology-business-plan, you're new-tech is out-of-touch-tech.

    1. Re:Bill by owlstead · · Score: 1

      Don't you think Bill would prefer somebody who can write down coherent sentences? Maybe even sentences without basic grammar mistakes?

  5. Microsoft should struggle somewhere else... by betso.net · · Score: 1

    Microsoft? Was that not the company trying so hard to build software? They try to sell phones now? This is probably not a bad idea... I always thought they should do something different.

    --
    xoda.org
    1. Re:Microsoft should struggle somewhere else... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the case of WP7, they are making software for phones, not selling phones. :)

    2. Re:Microsoft should struggle somewhere else... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Apple sells phone now too. Oh, and I hear Van Halen has a new singer...

    3. Re:Microsoft should struggle somewhere else... by betso.net · · Score: 1

      Oh, I understand. They couldn't make (proper) software for computers, now they try with phones. Struggling is what they do anyway.

      --
      xoda.org
    4. Re:Microsoft should struggle somewhere else... by betso.net · · Score: 1

      Not that I care what Apple does, but I heard that what they do works. When you are successful in one thing (e.g. making operating systems for computers), you can try succeeding in something else. And Apple obviously can succeed. Let me type my point down, should you have missed it: As long as Microsoft is trying to make something that they proved for decades that they are not able to, they will do nothing more than struggle. They should just give up and try something else.

      --
      xoda.org
    5. Re:Microsoft should struggle somewhere else... by Your.Master · · Score: 1

      What the hell are you talking about, though? Microsoft continues to make crazy money on their OS. How are they struggling? Why would they give up making an OS with a track record of "makes crazy money consistently"? If anything, that's an argument for them to stop doing all the trying something else that they are currently doing (eg. Kinect, Bing, maps, etc.) and go nuts making more and more OSes (and office suites).

  6. Microsoft Needs to Make a Compelling Case... by TomHandy · · Score: 4, Interesting
    A new phone buyer has a ton of options, between the iPhone, Android, Blackberry and hell, even webOS. For Windows Phone 7 to succeed, Microsoft needs to make a strong and compelling case that says "This is why you should buy a Windows Phone instead", but so far I haven't really seen it. The marketing message seems a bit muddled, focusing on the notion that people use their devices too much and that Windows Phone is all about using it as little as possible - an interesting idea perhaps, but not the strongest and most dynamic message. The real question is if there are a lot of people really dying for that - in theory you might think there are, but in practice people seem to be pretty happy with the way things are working.

    I don't think the Windows Phone approach is bad actually - there is something to be said for a device that really streamlines the experience - but the question is how much the market wants it. I'd have to see evidence that iPhone/Android/Blackberry/webOS users are really dissatisfied with the current way of doing things (in the way that pre-smartphone users were with their regular phones).

    1. Re:Microsoft Needs to Make a Compelling Case... by tomhudson · · Score: 1
      Two futures:
      1. They'll eventually give them away with Windows when you buy your next laptop. Activate Office.Whatever_the_next_version_is, and get 1 year's service with phone carrier X and some mobile office apps. Use the phone+blutooth as a remote for your laptop when connected to your HDTV, etc. The XBox variant will come with a "buy new games each month and get 1 month's free phone service" and mobile games as a bonus.
      2. WP7 becomes the Kin's next-of-next-of-kin.

      Since Microsoft isn't market-savvy enough to make deals to do #1, their phones will end up as big piles of #2 doing the swirly around the porcelain god.

    2. Re:Microsoft Needs to Make a Compelling Case... by larry+bagina · · Score: 0, Troll

      It makes it easy to track down and rape people from facebook. No, that was the kin, nevermind.

      --
      Do you even lift?

      These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.

    3. Re:Microsoft Needs to Make a Compelling Case... by Locutus · · Score: 1

      I think people like being "connected" and what is more "connected" than being in a conversation with others? Those Windows Phone ads are worthless because they are saying use our phone and you'll be connected less. wrong! I've also heard that they are bringing back the Kin and its message is being always connected. Covering the bases maybe.

      It's funny that for THAT company to have a problem selling "it's easier" but even then, would that even be enough to get customers. I doubt it.

      LoB

      --
      "Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
    4. Re:Microsoft Needs to Make a Compelling Case... by Tapewolf · · Score: 1

      I strongly suspect that that kind of bundling would have Microsoft nailed to the wall by the antitrust folks.

    5. Re:Microsoft Needs to Make a Compelling Case... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Er. Comes with IE7! A stable version of the world's most popular web browser!

    6. Re:Microsoft Needs to Make a Compelling Case... by Motard · · Score: 1

      I think what they're trying to do doesn't involve the mass retail market. Oh sure, they'd like it to be a hit there, but that's not where their message is the strongest. I think that where they'll try to get their initial momentum is through corporate CIOs. In addition to running Office, WP7 is a platform that can be exploited by the corporate .NET drones Microsoft has been cultivating for all these years. Crates of WP7 phones could be arriving direct without ever going through the retail market.

    7. Re:Microsoft Needs to Make a Compelling Case... by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      This is exactly it. I want to like WP7, but as a geek / power user, it's definitely not for me. And for, say, my mom? The problem is that I don't really see any meaningful way to reply to a totally reasonable question of "why this rather than iPhone?". Because, let's face it, it's what the default choice would be, unless you're looking for cheaper stuff (and then it's Android).

    8. Re:Microsoft Needs to Make a Compelling Case... by painandgreed · · Score: 1

      Those Windows Phone ads are worthless because they are saying use our phone and you'll be connected less.

      Well, I certainly agree that the Windows Phone ads are simply bad. They seem to suggest you won't use your phone that much, but people like me like to use their phone. A different OS isn't going to let me read any faster or play games quicker. However, I wouldn't say they are worthless. They are funny and get remembered. I caught people at work playing the ads and have had links to them posted because they are funny. In the vein of any publicity is good publicity, they have done their job in that they are rememberable enough for us to be having this conversation. In many cases, advertising isn't about actually displaying the good points about your product, but just getting your product's name stuck in the consumer's head so they remember it when they are shopping.

    9. Re:Microsoft Needs to Make a Compelling Case... by tomhudson · · Score: 1
      I originally thought that too ... but consider this:
      1. Microsoft is pretty much the smallest player in the mobile phone field
      2. If the phone also serves as a touchpad-style and/or wii-style remote control, phone service is optional, and competitors can offer the same functionality;
      3. Competitors are selling bundles of phones + service;
      4. Competitors are locking people into their own app stores;
      5. It takes 5 to 10 years for anti-trust to move their collective rump.

      Besides, do you really expect a government that rewards Goldman-Sachs and AIG,. and brings in a universal health care program that benefits the insurance companies to the detriment of the consumer, to do anything anti-business?

    10. Re:Microsoft Needs to Make a Compelling Case... by gilesjuk · · Score: 1

      Well they can't say "it has exchange support" since it's pitched as a consumer device. So that's a big fail when all the other players offer it and Microsoft don't.

    11. Re:Microsoft Needs to Make a Compelling Case... by whiteboy86 · · Score: 1

      There is huge lack of basic dev. support = no killer apps. Carmack tweeted last week that Rage for WP7 is unlikely due to the lack of C++, which is the language pretty much every AAA title or pro-app is coded these days, that means no good apps are coming to the platform or these get delayed. So much for the Steve "tripple developers" Ballmer dev. support promises.

    12. Re:Microsoft Needs to Make a Compelling Case... by blarkon · · Score: 1

      The message that MSFT should be putting out is that their mobile OS is designed to be centrally managed by the organization rather than the phone company. Microsoft has products that allow you to manage the phones in your organization as tightly as you manage the desktop - deploy and update applications, lock off features, enforce password policies and so on. As phones become as critical for applications and data as laptops are, the need to have a central management platform becomes more important. At the moment most organization's don't give a toss about managing their phone fleet - but when, in a few years time, some poor bastard in the IT department needs to make sure that all company phones have the latest operating system updates and anti-malware definitions, the back end infrastructure that MSFT has put together *may* give them a point of differentiation. Microsoft can differentiate with the following question: "How to I install and update an application on 1000 company phones with a minimum of effort?" Ultimately their strategy is something between Apple and Google's. Google allows Android to be put on anything - which means that we are seeing some really 3rd rate phones running Android (there was a review of a $99 Android tablet posted on Fark the other day - this sort of hardware shovelware is going to harm the reputation of Android). Apple makes its own phone and ties it down to enforce a consistent experience. Microsoft has a minimum hardware spec as a middle ground - anyone can make a phone as long as it has these minimum specs. It sort of deals with the Android hardware shovelware problem. They also allow central OS update - meaning that if you have the phone, it will be automatically updated as updates are released (and the minimum hardware spec means that all phones will support the updates). Google gave the carriers a lot of freedom in these issues, which is why, unless you're fairly competent, it can be a bastard to keep your Android phone up to date because the carriers have no interest in you keeping your phone current.

    13. Re:Microsoft Needs to Make a Compelling Case... by Locutus · · Score: 1

      that might apply more to a product or company without a known brand but Microsoft and Windows need brand recognition? I don't quite buy that and although Microsoft has billions to put behind this, they've hit the apex and _need_ a success. I say they've hit an apex because they were found to have pulled revenue from other productlines and pumped up the Windows product lines. I don't believe they have ever had to make the Windows productline look good revenue wise.

      If this really is a branding thing, which I doubt, they had better have another play lined up showing why people would want their phone over the iPhone, Androids, Blackberrys or even Symbians.

      LoB

      --
      "Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
    14. Re:Microsoft Needs to Make a Compelling Case... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't get why you think any of those things would be relevant. It's Windows that is the regulated monopoly and it's already under supervision, so the state of the phone market doesn't matter at all. They even have to offer an option screen on first run for their web browser in Europe, something that has come standard in any sane OS distribution for many years. There's no way that desktop Windows could come bundled with a cellphone.

      The xbox tie-in would probably be allowed, but I really doubt that such a deal would be compelling to anyone. If anything I'd expect Xbox games to come with a Windows Phone 7 supplemental game which maybe unlocks content in the main game, rather than having xbox subsidize it directly.

      I also don't see how Goldman-Sachs, AIG, and healthcare have anything to do with this, whatsoever. Besides, Microsoft is an international company. They can be crucified in a lot of places.

    15. Re:Microsoft Needs to Make a Compelling Case... by tomhudson · · Score: 1

      It's Windows that is the regulated monopoly and it's already under supervision

      The consent decree has expired. And as I pointed out, Microsoft has pretty much zero space in mobile. No anti-trust issues.

      They even have to offer an option screen on first run for their web browser in Europe, something that has come standard in any sane OS distribution for many years.

      I've never seen this "option screen" on any other OS. Certainly not in linux or bsd.

      There's no way that desktop Windows could come bundled with a cellphone.

      Why not? Apple can sell a mac bundled with an iPod or an iPad or an iPhone ...

      Besides, Microsoft is an international company. They can be crucified in a lot of places.

      The Irish will be happy to hear that ... oh, wait ...

    16. Re:Microsoft Needs to Make a Compelling Case... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For Windows Phone 7 to succeed, Microsoft needs to make a strong and compelling case that says "This is why you should buy a Windows Phone instead", but so far I haven't really seen it

      How about having the only decent media experience outside of the iPhone? That's what did it for me, at least. I picked up the Samsung Focus because it has a reasonable music player and can rent movies for long flights (music on Android is like using WMP from 2002 on a phone -- it's like Google doesn't realize people like music or movies). I buy only DRM-free music from the Zune marketplace but actually PREFER to have a platform that supports DRM'd video for rentals. I realize folks here probably hate anything that even supports DRM, but for me it's a huge win if it lets me rent movies and stream Netflix OTA (which is lacking from Android). For how much yelling people have done about copy & paste, I'd much rather wait 3 months for copy & paste than not have Netflix streaming.

  7. Slow sales.. by Sir+Lurkalot · · Score: 0

    Could AT&T being the sole service provider have anything to do with the sluggish Sales?

    1. Re:Slow sales.. by hedwards · · Score: 1

      Yeah, that's probably a part of it. AT&T is already home to the iPhone as well as several Android handsets, choosing a different carrier like say Verizon or Sprint would've made it a lot easier on them.

    2. Re:Slow sales.. by Kyn · · Score: 1

      I'd have a Windows Phone 7 if they were on my carrier. Really stupid idea to launch with only AT&T where you have to compete with the iPhone and Android. At least if they started or launched concurrently on Verizon or Sprint, they wouldn't be competing as much with the iPhone.

    3. Re:Slow sales.. by user · · Score: 3, Informative

      Um, what? t-mobile has them right now (http://htc.t-mobile.com/hd7/hd7-windows-mobile-lp?WT.ac=0918HOM04) and Sprint (http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2370604,00.asp) and Verizon in early 2011 (http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2372743,00.asp)

      --

      Emacs is for experts. Pico is for beginners. VI is a disease.

    4. Re:Slow sales.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Could AT&T being the sole service provider have anything to do with the sluggish Sales?

      Exactly! Except that they are not the only service provider. Try T-mobile.

    5. Re:Slow sales.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Agreed. If Verizon had them, I'd buy one. But they don't, and I'm not switching carriers just to get a dang phone.

    6. Re:Slow sales.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I hope you get rid of that flair...

    7. Re:Slow sales.. by fast+turtle · · Score: 0

      Sprint is bringing out several models of WP7 next year and I'm looking at one of them due to proposed features. Sure with the WP7 having been released by a single carrier in the States, things aren't looking too good for them right now but it's going to change in the spring.

      --
      Mod me up/Mod me down: I wont frown as I've no crown
    8. Re:Slow sales.. by Sir+Lurkalot · · Score: 1

      T-Mobil has very poor or non-existent coverage in my rural area.

    9. Re:Slow sales.. by blacklint · · Score: 1

      They aren't on Verizon or Sprint quite yet because Microsoft didn't have time to get the OS ready for CDMA devices. Considering how poorly the first CDMA Android devices performed (example: phones using Android 1.6 couldn't use A-GPS for a long time if I remember correctly), getting the bugs out first seems like it was a solid strategy.

    10. Re:Slow sales.. by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 1

      Could AT&T being the sole service provider have anything to do with the sluggish Sales?

      Obviously not, since that's not actually true. I see a flashy ad for the HTC HD7 whenever I go to check my T-Mobile account - so it's on other carriers. But why would I, or anyone else, want this phone?

      --
      #DeleteChrome
    11. Re:Slow sales.. by Yadyn · · Score: 1

      Hear, hear. I'd totally be looking into getting one if it were on Verizon. I was shocked when I learned it would be only AT&T at launch. Way to put it out on only ONE carrier and worse the one carrier that is already super-saturated with competitors (and, in specific, the other major smartphone on a single carrier --- iPhone). I mean, when iPhone did it, they made a splash and it worked and it continues to work today based on that momentum. But now we're several years later and there are a ton of smartphones and you can't do what Apple did and expect it to work the same way. Brilliant, Microsoft. Probably should have focused on CDMA first and delayed GSM instead.

  8. To recap... by giuseppemag · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...no official figures, no official declarations, no after-holiday-season data, no actual news.

    I understand this is slashdot, but come on. Criticism sticks better if it is documented, otherwise it's just another form of shilling.

    --
    My book: Friendly F#, fun with game development and XNA; my game: Galaxy Wars by VSTeam; my gamedev language: Casanova.
    1. Re:To recap... by hedwards · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The problem is that MS is not likely to let on if the Windows 7 phones are as big a flop as the Kin was. I've heard several figures for that debacle, none of which is over 10k units sold. Other than that, I'm not sure where you'd go to get real numbers from, perhaps AT&T.

    2. Re:To recap... by cbhacking · · Score: 1

      Or another form of flamebait. This kind of BS, even though it based MS, would earn a couple of such moderations if it were posted in a comment. If it were bashing anybody other than MS, it would sit solidly at -1. Tag approrpriately (I set: liesdamnliesstatistics, fud, flamebait) and click the minus on the article voting.

      I came here already knowing the article was BS just to gauge Slashdot's reaction. I'm actually fairly impressed how thoroughly people are picking apart an anti-MS "article".

      --
      There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
    3. Re:To recap... by rtfa-troll · · Score: 1

      ...no official figures, no official declarations, no after-holiday-season data, no actual news.

      The news, and I have to admit that this got deleted/de-emphasised from the submission, is that Windows phones have switched to buy one / get one free offers. I pointed out that the previous buy one get one free offer similar to the windows 7 phone BOGO offer one was for the KIN just before it's death and others, above, have pointed out that this tactic is used by Android, but only for old phones which have already been superceeded.

      Does this mean that sales are struggling? I'm really not 100% sure; I definitely thought about putting it in my article title (you may be surprised to hear I am not a Microsoft lover) and ruled it out because I didn't have clear enough evidence. However, they clearly wanted more sales than they can achieve at full price. That's pretty embarrassing in the light of Apple and Google who always have problems with too much demand in the initial stages of a launch, even though, as linked in the article, they deliver many more phones at the beginning than Microsoft seems able to.

      In the end, the idea that we should only trust Microsoft figures to find out Microsoft sales is ridiculous. We have to hear both sides of the story; the number going out from MS and the number really delivered to customers; before we can discuss failed sales. Going so openly for BOGO so early means that we really really need to analyse these numbers even more carefully. I doubt severely that the person getting the second phone will care about applications, so these become much closer to symbian phones where the base phone features are more important than the applications and so are not relevant competition for Apple and Google.

      --
      =~ s,(.*),<sarcasm>$1</sarcasm>,g if any_point_you_wish();
  9. Not quite the same by LinuxGeek · · Score: 1

    I saw original Droid phones for 1 penny (w/ contract) just before the Droid Incredible was released by Verizon. Hardly the same as deep discounting of WP7 units a month after release.

    The marketing at microsoft baffles me too. I don't know any iphone/android/blackberry users that are even remotely interested in the WP7 stuff. People are staying away in droves.

    --

    Kindness is the language which the deaf can hear and the blind can see. - Mark Twain
  10. Re:Not suprised. by binarylarry · · Score: 1

    Yep, Microsoft is now in the same place GM was in the mid seventies to the late 90's.

    --
    Mod me down, my New Earth Global Warmingist friends!
  11. Mission Acomplished by frovingslosh · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Just like the commercials say - "The Windows 7 Phone. A phone to save us from our phones". They even show how people want to use the other phones, with the clear message that we will not want to use a Windows 7 phone nearly as much. They seem to have actually accomplished their goal, and created a phone that people will be far less obsessed with using than cooler toys like iPhones, Androids and Blackberries.

    --
    I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
    1. Re:Mission Acomplished by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If people just wanted phones to be just phones the LG Chocolate would still be flying off the shelves. The simple fact is people really like having apps and internet wherever they go. I have friends that are very computer illiterate and they LOVE their Droids and iPhones. Why, because they like playing games, listening to music, and updating facebook. People want a computer in their hands not just a phone. I don't think people are asking to be saved from their phone as the commercials suggest, but rather they want to be on their phone more and tweeting about it.

    2. Re:Mission Acomplished by vuffi_raa · · Score: 1

      Just like the commercials say - "The Windows 7 Phone. A phone to save us from our phones".

      that's what I don't get as well - how is it a selling point that "our phone is so good that you won't want to use it as much as other phones"?

  12. Problem is their CEO... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...is a businessman.

    Back when Gates was in charge, Microsoft focused in on one thing: enterprise software. They were good at it. Hell, they were the best at it. They did nothing else except develop this enterprise software.

    Then Ballmer comes along, and before you know it you have MS trying its hardest to break into just about every single consumer niche you can think of, just so MS can have a "me too!" offering in just about every consumer electronics market space. And we all see how well that is going for them.

    Maybe when Ballmer is inevitably canned within the next FY or two, MS will get smart and put a CEO in his place that is much more focused on developing MS's core business model of enterprise software systems, and will stop wasting money on retarded consumer electronics ventures that in the end turn into nothing but money black holes.

    1. Re:Problem is their CEO... by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      Maybe when Ballmer is inevitably canned within the next FY or two, MS will get smart and put a CEO in his place that is much more focused on developing MS's core business model of enterprise software systems, and will stop wasting money on retarded consumer electronics ventures that in the end turn into nothing but money black holes.

      If they wait two years, they risk losing most of their 'core market' to the competition. The desktop market is saturated, you have to be crazy to put Windows on a server, and the mobile market is too entrenched for Windows to become the biggest player and probably not even a major one.

    2. Re:Problem is their CEO... by _Sprocket_ · · Score: 1

      Back when Gates was in charge, Microsoft focused in on one thing: enterprise software. They were good at it. Hell, they were the best at it. They did nothing else except develop this enterprise software.

      Microsoft took advantage of being a prime player on commodity hardware. They also ate Novel's lunch by providing a cheap end-run around Novel's licensing (and a rather easy migration path away from Netware). Microsoft solutions tended to be the cheap alternative. That advantage no longer exists.

    3. Re:Problem is their CEO... by JDmetro · · Score: 0

      Balmer took elite out of MS, Gate was cool at least from a nerd POV even if he was the antichrist

  13. Re:Not suprised. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    you purposefully installed nero?
    Well that means the rest of your "rant" is coming from a moron who has little to no credibility.

    let me guess, it was a $200 laptop too........

  14. Phone 7 doesn't feel quite ready yet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm a software developer at an ISV that has decided to create a mobile phone app to access our main software platform. We're a Microsoft partner and already have products using Silverlight, so therefore Phone 7 seemed like the obvious platform to start out with.

    MS really hasn't made it a smooth ride to get started with the real hardware. It is a farce to developer-unlock enough phones. The web sites at MS for the account related stuff are a broken nightmare, and totally impossible to get hold of anyone who can fix those things. The Live account integration into all this feels unprofessional -- why does one need to create a xbox gamer tag to be able to develop a business application?

    As for the phones themselves, there are some annoyances still. The beaten-to-death no copy-paste issue, the massively aggravating only one active application issue, the stupid no-removable-memorycard issue, the extremely anemic marketplace issue, ... And for those apps that are up on the marketplace, I wonder how they have gotten there since there are so many obviously buggy ones which I have a hard time believing they'd pass the MS' approval process.

    And the Live account is annoying on the user end as well. Want to visit the marketplace? Better hope the country your Live account is set to has a marketplace up already... Want to change the country of your Live account? Can't do that. Ok then, creating a new Live account and pretending to be from a country that has a marketplace? Oops, can't change the Live account on the phone, you must completely reset your phone in order to start using another Live account on it.

    And I'm still waiting for a Spotify client to come for this thing... It is somewhat irritating having to go back to manually moving over MP3s to one's music playback device.

    1. Re:Phone 7 doesn't feel quite ready yet by Shemmie · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I can kinda relate to this. MS is my bread and butter, but when faced recently with Android for the first time, and leaving 5 years of Windows Mobile, or WP7, I had to opt for Android. And I'm really glad I did.

      It is weird, but Android feels like the Windows of the smartphone World. I can install anything I like on it, which will lead to a support nightmare in years to come, when non-tech have installed the Chinese 'super speed up my phone' app. But in allowing people to install what they like, I'm there. I don't want my mobile phone locked down tighter than a ducks ass into iTunes or Windows Marketplace, tyvm.

      And those WP7 ads are fantastic - the phone you don't need to use much. What the hell? I admit to having to pull myself away from my new phone, as between using it as an ebook reader, mp3 device, gaming platform, web browser, ticket system for my public transport, etc - this thing is immense. I 'want' to use my phone a lot - as a commuter, it's a fantastic device. But then, when has MS marketing ever 'helped' MS - I swear they're paid per cock-up they achieve.

      The lock-in on WP7, and massive restrictions at launch feel very unprofessional. MS knew they were playing catch-up, and had to launch something superb, that was ahead of the game. The gaming does look good on WP7, but it seems they completely abandoned their enterprise market to do it - what used to be fleets on Win Mobile devices will soon be no more - and still MS keeps saying "Yes, it's coming. You'll be able to do 'x' on it, soon". It should have been ready to cater to business on day 1, not as an after thought.

      It seems MS really believed they could launch a consumer product that would float on its own merits - even with my MS tinted glasses on, I admit that's something they've never really been good at. They lack 'coolness' to do what apple can do in the consumer market - something I hate as a concept, but concede is a big issue in getting consumer electronics to sell. I originally thought I'd look at Windows Phone again next time my contract's up, but to be honest, I can't see it still being a player in 2 years time.

    2. Re:Phone 7 doesn't feel quite ready yet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've never quite understood why people thought it was Apple vs. Android rather than seeing Android was just going to take the Windows position on mobile. And like Jobs said in, what, 1997 - Android doesn't have to lose in order for Apple to win. And vice versa.

      Microsoft has really lost their focus and need to go back to basics (just like Apple did). At one point, it was something like 'if it's running software, it's gonna be Microsoft software'. But they don't seem to be developing software for any of these new computing platforms.

    3. Re:Phone 7 doesn't feel quite ready yet by vux984 · · Score: 1

      And those WP7 ads are fantastic - the phone you don't need to use much. What the hell?

      Really? ;)

      It appeals to me. I'm getting close to braining my wife with a 2x4 for pissing around on her phone like some sort of OCD crack addict.

  15. Microsoft releases actual cow turd as phone by David+Gerard · · Score: 3, Funny

    Desperate to stay competitive against iPhone and Android mobile devices, Microsoft has released a two-pound lump of actual cow faeces that they claim constitutes a phone.

    Windows Mobile 7, in development for several years, strips the mobile telephone down to its fundamental essence: futility, annoyance, malfunction, inconvenience and a socially unacceptable odour. Confounding analyst expectations, the turd is in fact shined.

    US mobile carriers hailed the turd as the perfect physical complement to their world-famous customer service. "This powerful product will promote our growth!" said John Harrobin of Verizon Wireless. "We're marketing them as edible."

    "We think we can really work the brand equity," said Steve Ballmer, modelling the optional shoulder-length rubber gloves. "Everyone works with our stuff all day every day. They know who Microsoft is and what we do."

    "How about making our customers actually swallow our bullshit physically?" said John Harrobin. "Windows Mobile 7 was my idea."

    Picture: Steve Ballmer overjoyed at Windows phone sales figures.

    --
    http://rocknerd.co.uk
    1. Re:Microsoft releases actual cow turd as phone by magus_melchior · · Score: 1

      Windows Mobile 7, in development for several years, strips the mobile telephone down to its fundamental essence: futility, annoyance, malfunction, inconvenience and a socially unacceptable odour. Confounding analyst expectations, the turd is in fact shined.

      Well, yeah... the statement that "you can't polish a turd" was busted a few years ago. Evidently Microsoft decided that the dorodango method would apply to mobile devices as well.

      --
      "We are Microsoft. You shall be assimilated. Competition is futile."
    2. Re:Microsoft releases actual cow turd as phone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Desperate to stay competitive against iPhone and Android mobile devices, Microsoft has released a two-pound lump of actual cow faeces that they claim constitutes a phone.

      Windows Mobile 7, in development for several years, strips the mobile telephone down to its fundamental essence: futility, annoyance, malfunction, inconvenience and a socially unacceptable odour. Confounding analyst expectations, the turd is in fact shined.

      I'm curious if you've actually tried out Windows Mobile 7. My wife got one last week, and it's really neat.
      Very quick and responsive, easy to use, looks nice (I like it better than my iPhone or my brother's Android as far as looks go, but it's all personal taste). The only thing I haven't tried is installing apps.
      Microsoft wouldn't know what a cool marketing campaign is if it hit them in the face, but the OS itself definitely holds its own. If you're looking for a new smartphone, give it a look, don't skip it just because it's Microsoft.

    3. Re:Microsoft releases actual cow turd as phone by westyvw · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If there is one thing I have learned using MIcrosoft products (and subsequently banning them from my home and business truth be told) is that in the end Microsoft software will bite you hard at some point. Sometimes its a policy change, sometimes a compatibility change, sometimes a virus, but in the end it will hurt. They will continue to promise a rosy picture of the future, and continue to dazzle in the short term, but then the pain will happen again, and the only way off the crazy train that is Microsoft is look behind the curtain and get out while you still can.

    4. Re:Microsoft releases actual cow turd as phone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      just another half assed ms release, half the essential features are missing, the sd card system and getting apps from win marketplace only - plain idiocracy. only redeeming factor is the UI which is not half bad (i still like Symbian^3 more)
      as a cherry on top the hardware requierements are extensive meaning that there isnt much battery life to speak of, oh and the graphics crash every now and then

    5. Re:Microsoft releases actual cow turd as phone by NuShrike · · Score: 1

      Isn't this how GM shoveled their "product brand" (while Toyota/Honda were pushing CS and product quality) before GM went bankrupt? Pushing a pure brand message seems to have "always" worked.

    6. Re:Microsoft releases actual cow turd as phone by sunspot42 · · Score: 1

      Very quick and responsive, easy to use, looks nice

      Sorry, I tried both the Samsung and HTC phones at a big kiosk AT&T setup the day the Win 7 phones were released, and I found both of them to be sluggish terds. Glitches switching from screen to screen, weird freezes, a totally non-intuitive interface with tons of wasted space (a fatal flaw on devices with such tiny screens) which seems to necessitate lots of annoying flipping from screen to screen (prompting more glitches and freezes). It's another UI disaster from Microsoft (although at least I'll give them credit for trying something marginally different).

      The phones themselves felt kinda cheap and plasticy, too.

      There's no way I'd choose one of these things over an iPhone or an Android phone.

      If Win Phone 7 had come out two years ago they might have had time to polish this terd before getting squashed by Google and Apple. As it stands, it's way, way too late. It would be like MS releasing the Xbox to compete with the PS2 three years after the PS2 bowed, instead of around a year after. Apple and Google are probably 6-18 months away from releasing next gen phones that'll blow anything currently on the market out of the water, and Microsoft is just now releasing something that could compete with Apple's product from almost **four years ago**?

      Pathetic.

      I'd rather buy one of the Palm phones, on the assumption that HP won't let WebOS die anytime soon. At least they're pretty slick (I like the interface and look and feel of WebOS a lot more than I like Android).

    7. Re:Microsoft releases actual cow turd as phone by Missing.Matter · · Score: 1

      Isn't this true of any software? I Updated my Ubuntu install last week and it refused to boot. I had to spend hours backing up my data and reinstalling the OS because I don't have the know how to diagnose the problem. How is this different than a virus taking down my system? Apple recently burned me with Snow Leopard, making it so that it wouldn't work with my 3 year old mac. There are perils at every turn in the tech world, and pretending that one company is the source of them all is foolish.

    8. Re:Microsoft releases actual cow turd as phone by westyvw · · Score: 2, Informative

      Because 1. You were not forced to upgrade Ubuntu, 2. You could test the upgrade or create a burnable DVD of your environment to revert to, or 3. Switch distros while saving all of your own data (and preferences if you wish). You have options, its your data, its your freedom to use the software in ways that arent always expected.

      On a side note: Sorry to hear about the Ubuntu. As with any upgrade its best to be prepared with backups. I havent experienced pain from Ubuntu lately but I dont trust it to desktop environments other than laptops.

    9. Re:Microsoft releases actual cow turd as phone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > My wife got one last week, and it's really neat.

      Ballmer is banging your wife.

  16. Microsoft Needs to Make a Compelling Case..prepaid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Maybe they can bring their smartphones to the pre-paid (no contract) market? That's one market that's lacking in the smartphone (variety) department.

  17. Learn from Honda by PPH · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Or other Japanese manufacturers*.

    Honda spent years (decades?) building things with small engines. Starting with 90cc motorcycles, they slowly learned the technology and marketplace. As they did so, they slowly worked their way up the product chain until they reached the position they are in now.

    Perhaps Ballmer must go. But does Microsoft have the patience to tough it out for a decade or so, repairing the damage he has done and rebuilding the product teams (while enduring stinking sales figures) before they start to see results?

    *There are numerous examples other than Honda. But it was the only car analogy I could think of.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
    1. Re:Learn from Honda by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't blame the developers at microsoft, I blame the leadership. It's upper management and not just balmer. No one will stand up to him!

    2. Re:Learn from Honda by boreddotter · · Score: 1

      They do have 44 billion in cash, and I guess win7 and the new office are doing ok... so I guess they can survive for a few more years.

      I kinda feel sorry for them TBH.

    3. Re:Learn from Honda by NuShrike · · Score: 2, Informative

      The wisdom from this is engines were Honda's passion, bread and butter. Everything MS does is about market dominance, no passion, they could care less about profits. As soon as they dominate, MS looses interest (IE, Windows Mobile, Microsoft Money, etc etc).

    4. Re:Learn from Honda by PCM2 · · Score: 1

      Actually, the bigger problem seems to be management up the board. Every article I've read about Microsoft's business culture seems to suggest that on some teams there's a manager for every three employees. An org chart that deep all but guarantees productivity on the individual level will be stifled and good ideas from the lower levels will never percolate up into actual business strategy.

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    5. Re:Learn from Honda by BoRegardless · · Score: 1

      Uhhh... They actually started with the Honda 50.

      I know. Had one in college @ San Luis Obispo in 1964-5. Made of sheet metal frame that survived multiple crashes & so did I, miraculously, without cuts or broken bones. Those came later on a Royal Enfield (just being reintroduced this year).

    6. Re:Learn from Honda by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your overall point is okay, but bare in mind that Harley Davidson sells more MCs than all other companies combined and the most revered sportsbikes are all Italian. The most desirable cars are Italian or German (not that they are similar!) So, where are the Japanese these days?? Selling like crazy but unloved? Sounds like Windows/Microsoft.

    7. Re:Learn from Honda by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not quite so severe as that. I think they target 5:1 and run at a little higher at most orgs (~6:1), at least for the engineering section. They're also fans of managers, especially low-level managers, also making contributions in their own right, rather than being dedicated to management.

    8. Re:Learn from Honda by geoffrobinson · · Score: 1

      You need to look at everything Microsoft does through the lens of trying to be a company that used to be a stock of a grown company. And wants growth again of course.

      --
      Except for ending slavery, the Nazis, communism, & securing American independence, war has never solved anything.
  18. Stop the constant WP7-bashing. by the+linux+geek · · Score: 4, Interesting

    So far I really haven't seen any indications that the OS is doing badly. My AT&T store said that the demand for them was high, especially for the Focus, and I've seen similar responses from the T-Mo reps. I don't think you can write off the system until it's been released on the CDMA networks and has had a few updates.

    My personal experience with it has been somewhat mixed. The UI is superb, lightyears beyond Android, but it has its share of weaknesses - a big one I can think of is lack of socket support in the public API. I think this will probably be added in the January update, but in the mean time, it means there are a lot of application types that just aren't available, like an IRC client. The dev tools are generally excellent, just limited in terms of exposed functionality.

    1. Re:Stop the constant WP7-bashing. by hxnwix · · Score: 3, Insightful

      So far I really haven't seen any indications that the OS is doing badly.

      There are clearly more Windows 7 phones in stock than there are people buying Windows 7 phones. If this were a hot seller, there wouldn't be inventory for a buy one get one free deal.

      Also, anything following your disclaimer is sure to actually be happening: "So far I really haven't seen any indications that........"

    2. Re:Stop the constant WP7-bashing. by aristotle-dude · · Score: 4, Interesting

      My personal experience with it has been somewhat mixed. The UI is superb, lightyears beyond Android, but it has its share of weaknesses - a big one I can think of is lack of socket support in the public API.

      So you think that square boxes and text that is cut off is light years ahead of other UIs? Have you browsed the web much? MSFT basically took ideas from flash websites and created an inconsistent UI out of it. Should I really expect any more though from someone with the username "linux geek"? The UI is crap.

      The lack of socket support is a minor issue compared to the lack of copy and paste and a lack of multitasking this late in the game. They rushed it out. There are gaping holes in the API which cause it to be much harder to develop on compared with even Android let alone iOS. iOS provides a rich set of frameworks whereas MSFT platforms usually offer only basic functionality and you have to either "roll your own" or buy an off the shelf third party library.

      --
      Jesus was a compassionate social conservative who called individuals to sin no more.
    3. Re:Stop the constant WP7-bashing. by bds1986 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      My AT&T store said that the demand for them was high, especially for the Focus, and I've seen similar responses from the T-Mo reps.

      I'd expect nothing less from a salesperson. "This item is wildly unpopular, we have crates of them sitting out the back and we'll never get rid of them all, but please pay the full advertised price" isn't exactly a good marketing pitch. We really need to see figures from a third-party without a vested interest in moving units to determine WP7's success/failure.

    4. Re:Stop the constant WP7-bashing. by Alioth · · Score: 1

      Lack of a socket library in a communications device!? That, to my mind is unforgivable.

      Even my Sinclair ZX Spectrum has a socket library. For a "modern security device" that connects to the Internet to not have a socket API leaves me, well, speechless.

    5. Re:Stop the constant WP7-bashing. by KarmaMB84 · · Score: 1

      It's a sneaky sales tactic they've been doing with Android phones for quite a while. They could do a sale for 50% (of the upfront price, not the inflated monthly payment cost) off or go the sneaky route and score a contract or contract extension for two phones by making you buy two of them to get the "deal".

    6. Re:Stop the constant WP7-bashing. by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      There are clearly more Windows 7 phones in stock than there are people buying Windows 7 phones

      Where does that come from? All I see on the Net are slews of stories from frustrated people about how shops have 2-3 WP7 phones, which go away in a matter of hours.

      If anything, it looks like the number of phones in stock is laughably small, so much so that it raises a brow regarding manufacturers' expectations on how well it'd sell.

    7. Re:Stop the constant WP7-bashing. by sideslash · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The lack of socket support is a minor issue compared to the lack of copy and paste and a lack of multitasking this late in the game. They rushed it out. There are gaping holes in the API which cause it to be much harder to develop on compared with even Android let alone iOS. iOS provides a rich set of frameworks whereas MSFT platforms usually offer only basic functionality and you have to either "roll your own" or buy an off the shelf third party library.

      (*yawn*) When the iPhone was released, it didn't have _any_ SDK for writing installed apps, and it stomped all over existing smartphone platforms that did support custom apps, multitasking, clipboard, and sockets -- such as the old Windows Mobile. What made the iPhone a huge success was not its SDK or apps. Just stop think about that for a bit. I think it could be entirely possible for a new smartphone platform to "succeed", i.e. sell widely and turn a large profit, with a tiny app store selection -- if people found the core experience "cool" enough.

      Microsoft is rolling out features slowly and deliberately. In my opinion (speaking as a WP7 app dev, previously iOS), they are doing a great job on quality of the specific features they've put out so far. There are loads of open source stuff that fills in the holes (such as SQLite). Now, don't get me wrong, I do like to see people complaining about missing features -- that's great, because it keeps pressure on Microsoft to fill in the holes. But some people need to cut out the baloney about the whole platform failing because e.g. non-HTTP socket apps can't be written yet.

    8. Re:Stop the constant WP7-bashing. by Missing.Matter · · Score: 3, Insightful

      So you think that square boxes and text that is cut off is light years ahead of other UIs?

      Well, that's the form of the UI, but it's the function that I find more compelling than other phones. The focus for Windows Phone 7 is on Hubs rather than apps. While an app focuses on a single task, a hub integrates similar tasks. For instance, on iOS, if I want to check my friend's twitter feed and a facebook wall, I need two apps to do this; I have to launch one, close it, then launch another. On WP7 there is a single location for this information, and what's more is hubs are extensible, so any service can integrate with them.

      Tiles serve to visualize the contents of hubs (The people tile for example shows pictures of your contacts, the pictures tile shows your photos) and the "cut off text" along with parallax indicates your relative location in the hub. While it seems like these are simply aesthetic choices, if you actually use the device you find they serve a functional purpose

      And anyway, what exactly is the competition doing? Want to talk about iOS, which is essentially a grid of icons? iOS is hardly consistent, as every app has a custom interface. Yes there are a handful of standardized UI elements, but beyond that there is no standardization. The same is true for Android, where every manufacturer is free to re-imagine the user interface.

    9. Re:Stop the constant WP7-bashing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is the UI really lightyears ahead. All it reminds me on is that each tile more or less just is a desktop widget, so iOS forces you to icons on the desktop, WinMobikle 7 forces you to deskop widgets on the desktop and Android and Symbian allow both.

    10. Re:Stop the constant WP7-bashing. by sunspot42 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You don't offer "Buy one, get one free" deals on hardware you can't keep in stock.

      Do you see Apple offering such deals? No. Why? Because they truly can't keep their hardware in stock.

      This is basic retail. Whenever you see a "Buy one, get one free" deal, you know somebody is sitting on a pile of sh*t they can't sell!

    11. Re:Stop the constant WP7-bashing. by sunspot42 · · Score: 1

      When the iPhone was released, it didn't have _any_ SDK for writing installed apps, and it stomped all over existing smartphone platforms that did support custom apps, multitasking, clipboard, and sockets -- such as the old Windows Mobile.

      When the iPhone was released, it was January of 2007. Have you checked a calendar lately? It's been nearly four years since the iPhone came out. What was competitive then isn't competitive now. Microsoft trying to peddle a "new" mobile OS that's four years behind its competitors is pathetic.

      It would be like Microsoft trying to sell the original Xbox against the PS3. Way too little, way too late. Unless they give it away which, given the proliferation of "buy one, get one free" deals, it looks like they're already having to resort to.

      Unfortunately, Google is already several steps ahead of them in that game, so lotsa luck, Redmond!

    12. Re:Stop the constant WP7-bashing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the only thing you see about this UX is the boxes, then you should continue to stick with Android because you probably don't have what it takes to understand what linux-geek is talking about.

      Yes, the UX is lightyears ahead of Android. The WP7 UX defines a complete "language" that goes way beyond the inital tiles screen. In fact, even the iPhone UX can learn few tricks from this very fresh and new take in user experience. Face it, Android is nothing more than a glorified Windows Mobile 6.5. It simply is tasteless tentative to continue the outdated computer desktop paradigm. So passé.

      As for the development process on WP7, it doesn't seem that you actually did much on it. My team develops mobile software on all the major platforms (yes, including WP7!) and all the developers would tell you that the development framework is superior even to the iOS offering. The UX framework is simply above anything available and this, by a fairly large margin.

      And for you "so typical" rant about the Copy & Paste, sockets and multitasking, please, get informed before posting. WP7 is a major rewrite project and the team had a very tough and tight schedule. Consequently, they had to deliver something for the Fall 2010 timeframe and that required carefull and delicate decision about what to push back. All these features where identified as not "absolutely necessary for the release" and will be pushed in a short term update.

      To conclude, you should also know that the OS is actually, and from day one, fully supporting mulltitasking. Again, the team decided not to expose the model in version 1.0 to third party applications because it needs refinement. Apple took a full 3 years to provide their solution. Fully opening multitasking is a receipe for battery life disaster. I'm not sure for this one yet but I think there could be interesting suprises coming in this area also.

      Now, fanboy, try to get informed before posting insipid rants.

    13. Re:Stop the constant WP7-bashing. by sideslash · · Score: 1

      Wow, scary bolded phrases. There is no reasonable sense in which Microsoft is "four years behind". The WP7 platform is launching with hardware on par with other top-end 2010 smartphones, and an app SDK far ahead of the 2007 iPhone. They are a little behind, but not four years behind. Stop hyperventilating so much, dude -- just give WP7 some time and see how it does.

    14. Re:Stop the constant WP7-bashing. by cbhacking · · Score: 1

      Funny, they seem to be sold out in all the storeas around here. Mind you, I'm in Seattle so maybe this isn't a surprise, but even the HTC Surround is selling almost immediately when it arrives now (it was slow at first) and the Focus is very hard to find. The Venue Pro supply is beling limited by manufacturer issues, but T-Mobile reps claim they're getting a ton of questions about it.

      --
      There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
    15. Re:Stop the constant WP7-bashing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Stop the constant WP7-bashing

      This is Slashdot. Get another phone, or get out. :-P

    16. Re:Stop the constant WP7-bashing. by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      Just stop think about that for a bit. I think it could be entirely possible for a new smartphone platform to "succeed", i.e. sell widely and turn a large profit, with a tiny app store selection -- if people found the core experience "cool" enough.

      Precisely. See the biggest player in smartphones: Nokia. Tiny app store, yet they're the big player in the smartphone world.

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    17. Re:Stop the constant WP7-bashing. by landswipe · · Score: 1

      He/she's not talking about the hardware, its about the software! The O/S is junk, people are in a state of denial. Try and enter a URL in landscape mode in IE, I mean COME ON!!! Also, dotNET lockin is one of the most stupid things they could have done, even iOS and Android understand the value of C/C++ (opengl) to game developers.

    18. Re:Stop the constant WP7-bashing. by sideslash · · Score: 1

      Um, just tried that in IE and it worked fine.

      I do agree with you on the C/C++ thing, though. There are certain categories of apps (DSP/games) where native compilation is important. But enough continual pressure from devs and Microsoft will probably provide some mechanism for that. But getting back to refuting you -- for most apps, .NET is fine, and in fact an absolutely excellent framework for mobile development. Some people will find it hard to go back to ObjC.

    19. Re:Stop the constant WP7-bashing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So they're struggling to sell the Droids?

    20. Re:Stop the constant WP7-bashing. by sideslash · · Score: 1

      Actually, strike that. landswipe is right about IE. I tried it in the Bing view, which isn't the same.

    21. Re:Stop the constant WP7-bashing. by Eponymous+Coward · · Score: 1

      Do you really think the hardware is on par with iPhone? I played with a WP7 phone for a few minutes and it felt pretty cheap in my hand. The newest iPhone feels very solid. I realize Microsoft doesn't design the hardware, but it would be nice if somebody other than Apple paid attention to industrial design. The iPhone has it's flaws for sure, but the parts they have perfected should be copied by others.

    22. Re:Stop the constant WP7-bashing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      iPhone didn't get cut and paste until last year, not 4 years ago. And the iPhone competition had cut and paste more than four years before the first iPhone came out.

      Simply put, the presence of a clipboard and socket API do not by themselves define how far technology has advanced, and comparing specific features WP7 has now, against what the iOS has now, and then backdating them to their respective initial release dates, is beyond meaningless. There's no reasonable measure by which WP7 is four years behind its competitors in aggregate. None at all. If you had WP7 phones side by side with the original iPhone 4 years ago at their respective launch prices, you'd basically be an idiot to pick the iPhone. Now though? Not so clear. iPhone 4 definitely has advantages.

    23. Re:Stop the constant WP7-bashing. by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      It is worse that that. BOGO plus inventory means it is really bad seller. Bulk Discounts for family plans coming soon.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    24. Re:Stop the constant WP7-bashing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dude, are you high?

      iOS is a grid of icons versus WP7 which is a grid of...tile icons? The only difference is that when you click a tile, it has a nice "outro" animation to the next app. WP7 has some cool meta-app features built into the OS like you mention, but these are only awesome if I use all these services. If I'm more interested in trying out lots of different ways of accessing my social networking stuff (I like Echofon for some things, Twitter for iPhone for others. Sometimes the Touch.Facebook.com app is what I need, other times, the facebook for iPhone app is better, but it's nice to be able to choose, which makes a built-in OS app for them cool, but not necessarily what I'm lookinf for.) WP7, in my opinion, left out some major things that are killing my desire to buy it, and more, my desire to develop for it. I make my living doing Silverlight, so this is a huge bummer.

      1) there is no multi-tasking - unforgivable. When WP7 was announced, there was no multi-tasking support for the iPhone. Two weeks after the announcement, the iPhone announced multi-tasking and cut and paste (we'll talk about that in a second). Microsoft should have immediately hired an interaction designer or imported one from their CSS division and gotten to work on making this happen. That they didn't is either a testament to the weakness of the architecture, or the product manager. This is a feature that even my old Motorola Q was capable of and they could have done in an interesting way without losing face.

      2) There is no cut and paste. Did people really think this was never going to be implemented on the iPhone? It's yet another impossible to miss item on the iOS wishlist that should have been implemented out of common sense. MS has had copy and paste in Windows for something like 17 years. Couldn't someone have come up with an implementation for touch in all that time? This is just one more thing that Apple embarrassed MS with that should have never shipped without. And the thing I don't get is, how hard could it really be? Just implement all textblocks as textboxes and make them selectable, then on the click (touch) event, display some handlebars that let you drag the beginning and end of the selection. The dragging part might be a small challenge, but you have some pretty magical devs in your Silverlight group that I know can pull this off.

      3) No Silverlight support in the browser? COME ON.... I read some lame ass excuse for this about battery power but do you REALLY think we're going to buy that about the programming language that is the basis for your entire application ecosystem? Flash, maybe, but Silverlight, REALLY? This after claiming that you're tying Silverlight to WP7 as a dev environment. If I can't make a Silverlight web app that runs in the browser and you're going to force me to PAY to get my Silverlight app on the device THAT RUNS SILVERLIGHT NATIVELY, it tells me that you're really more interested in making money from developers than from selling apps. I guess I was just expecting a little more goodwill than that for people who pay hundreds of dollars to buy your development tools. To my mind, if I PAY for VS2010 Professional and Expression Blend, that's MORE than enough of an investment in Microsoft App technology.

      Finally, let me give you a tip: When you develop a product that's meant to innovate in a market, read the wish lists of your competitors and implement them, or better yet, excede expectations. If you don't, what's the point?

    25. Re:Stop the constant WP7-bashing. by rtfa-troll · · Score: 1

      See the biggest player in smartphones: Nokia. Tiny app store, yet they're the big player in the smartphone world.

      There are two things to say here. Firstly, most Symbian apps can simply be downloaded off the internet; the app store is only a small part of a much larger whole (which is great). Secondly; if you aren't using add on applications, you are really in dumb phone territory. "Dumb" phones from companies like nokia nowadays often even allow J2ME application installs; have bluetooth, including internet access and have web browsers such as Opera mini. Your success in the Smart phone business is basically defined by your success in building a platform third party developers will develop for.

      --
      =~ s,(.*),<sarcasm>$1</sarcasm>,g if any_point_you_wish();
    26. Re:Stop the constant WP7-bashing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In my opinion (speaking as a WP7 app dev, previously iOS)

      What, were you just making too much money and decided to slum it for a while? Or are you just that worthless as a developer that you decided to write your fart apps with the code equivalent of Legos, i.e. Silverlight?

    27. Re:Stop the constant WP7-bashing. by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1
      So does that make my HTC Touch Pro2 not a smart phone? No one really develops for WinMo 6.5, I think there's fewer apps available for my phone than in the OVI store. Yet my phone can do things that iOS and Android devices simply cannot do...

      .
      I think your definition of smartphone/dumbphone territory needs a little work...

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    28. Re:Stop the constant WP7-bashing. by gmhowell · · Score: 1

      In typical nerd speak, he is probably referring to things like processor speed, memory, etc, and not build quality and feel.

      --
      Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
    29. Re:Stop the constant WP7-bashing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you think that square boxes and text that is cut off is light years ahead of other UIs?

      Well, that's the form of the UI, but it's the function that I find more compelling than other phones. The focus for Windows Phone 7 is on Hubs rather than apps. While an app focuses on a single task, a hub integrates similar tasks. For instance, on iOS, if I want to check my friend's twitter feed and a facebook wall, I need two apps to do this; I have to launch one, close it, then launch another. On WP7 there is a single location for this information, and what's more is hubs are extensible, so any service can integrate with them.

      Tiles serve to visualize the contents of hubs (The people tile for example shows pictures of your contacts, the pictures tile shows your photos) and the "cut off text" along with parallax indicates your relative location in the hub. While it seems like these are simply aesthetic choices, if you actually use the device you find they serve a functional purpose

      And anyway, what exactly is the competition doing? Want to talk about iOS, which is essentially a grid of icons? iOS is hardly consistent, as every app has a custom interface. Yes there are a handful of standardized UI elements, but beyond that there is no standardization. The same is true for Android, where every manufacturer is free to re-imagine the user interface.

      The Win 7 UI is crap. please stop trying to put lipstick on it. Anyone can see it is pathetic...

  19. A sign he's on his way out by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When they replace his furniture with Nerf chairs expect a big announcement.

    1. Re:A sign he's on his way out by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They will take the chairs from my sweaty tepid dead hands. Posting anonymously for obvious reasons.

  20. Windows Phone 7 looks ugly (to me) by satuon · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I might be the exception, but when I saw a picture of a phone with this OS, my first reaction was to think it's plain ugly. I wouldn't buy one just for that. Does anyone else think it looks ugly, too?

    1. Re:Windows Phone 7 looks ugly (to me) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      At least they won't be accused of copying the iPhone look and feel...

    2. Re:Windows Phone 7 looks ugly (to me) by jeffgeno · · Score: 1

      You have to see it in motion. It's amazingly fluid and well designed in use. I personally love what they've done in getting rid of all the unnecessary graphic elements. There are no lines between the messages in your inbox, no always visible scroll bars, no locked title bars... really nothing at all between you and your data. Play with one in a store and you'll come away with a completely different impression.

    3. Re:Windows Phone 7 looks ugly (to me) by satuon · · Score: 1

      I admit I haven't seen one live. May be I should try it. What put me off were the solid blue color flat rectangles. They make the phone look like it can't support more than 16 colors. It just doesn't feel modern. And even if it's just the photo - this photo was on all articles I saw, making a bad impression. I wonder how many lost sales that photo alone might have generated.

    4. Re:Windows Phone 7 looks ugly (to me) by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      The biggest stylistic victory of the phone is to give you a feeling of spaciousness and ease of movement that the other phones don't give you. I really admire the way they did it, but it doesn't come across in a single screenshot. I agree with you that the color combinations are horrible, but they do create an 'unshiny' retro feel that distinguishes them from other phones.

      For some reason, Microsoft stylistically seems stuck in the 70s the same way Apple stylistically is stuck in a futuristic white shiny box. So it does kind of have the Brady Bunch look, and the icons are rather simple.

      If you look at the phone in your hand, and see it in motion (instead of in a screenshot on the screen), it looks quite nice, and gives you a feeling of spaciousness. The graphics are nicer than most Android phones I've seen and more complex than the iPhone. I personally prefer the futuristic look to the Brady Bunch look, and think the 70s were a fashion mistake along with the Brady Bunch, but apparently people at Microsoft like it.

      My point is, it's really a phone you need to hold in your hand before forming an opinion on the looks.

      --
      Qxe4
    5. Re:Windows Phone 7 looks ugly (to me) by qmaqdk · · Score: 1

      It has the trademark Microsoft style: design by committee

      You can almost tell the key topics the committee came up with:
      * Copy Apple's design, but not too much
      * Put in a Windows logo, 'cause Windows is a cool brand
      * We need to buttons big, so everyone can hit them

      --
      My UID is prime. Hah!
    6. Re:Windows Phone 7 looks ugly (to me) by sideslash · · Score: 2, Informative

      It's understandable that you're not excited by that stock screenshot. But the whole point of the start screen is that is different for each person. It shows media customized to you -- social networking updates, contacts, photos. If you ever get a WP7 and watch it populate the start screen with stuff from your personal accounts, you will probably at least have a better appreciation for it, even if you still prefer Android or iOS. It's hard to explain, but it's the difference between seeing a row of cold, impersonal icons that 10 million other iOS users also see, versus (with really minimal setup) seeing a tile with your SO's photo and status, and other rich media that is very much individualized.

      So will that approach resonate with the public? I have no idea. Time will tell.

    7. Re:Windows Phone 7 looks ugly (to me) by Missing.Matter · · Score: 1

      They make the phone look like it can't support more than 16 colors. It just doesn't feel modern.

      Right, I think they should had some gloss, a bevel, some gradients, and maybe a drop shadow and reflective surface. That'll bring it into the 21st century.

    8. Re:Windows Phone 7 looks ugly (to me) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No.

  21. Re:Not suprised. by JDmetro · · Score: 0

    Nero comes with the laptop Windows software has never been important enough to research the best cd burning software for windows as a Linux user the included software has always been plenty good (brassero or K3b) I fully expect included software to do the job they advertise.

  22. They are going to buy RIM by NicknamesAreStupid · · Score: 1

    I have said this for two years, since they dumped the old Windows Mobile. Someone inside Microsoft was given one last shot at a technological solution. This was not given much hope, kind of like John McCain's campaign, but the culture dictated it. The financial managers are just waiting for the first two quarters of dismal results to report before launching their plan to regroup, focusing solely on the enterprise, and buying RIM while their mobile market share is low enough to get the acquisition past the SEC. This should be a surprise to no one.

  23. Not too bad actually by __aazsst3756 · · Score: 4, Informative

    Ars summed it up nicely, their launch numbers are not as bad as some are making it sound, certainly not horrible Windows phone 7 launch numbers explained.

    They have a lot to add to this new OS to catch the competition, but they know that, they simply had to ship. Overall it is a very well laid out OS with some great ideas. In the big picture the smartphone market is still very young. Microsoft has a lot of talented people, and backed into a corner Balmer might just let them perform. It is way too early to start pointing fingers and snickering.

    1. Re:Not too bad actually by rtfa-troll · · Score: 0

      An article which multiplies 40k by two to get 100k. It does that by assuming that you sell just as many sales on the second day after launch as on the launch day. I can do that differently: let's assume that, given that there weren't queues for the windows phones, almost everybody who wanted one got one on launch day. The next days sales would just be those people who were busy; let's say 9k. This means that the sales for Windows phone 7 were less than half those of Android in it's launch weekend. My numbers would be just as valid (and just as stuipd) as those from Ars Technica.

      It's also an article which equates Windows mobile sales with late model Android sales. This completely ignores the fact that older windows mobile devices will not be upgraded so the installed base is exactly equal to the newly sold Windows mobile base whilst the installed base of Android and iOS includes also those people who want to upgrade.

      Come on. If the evidence in this article were what we had to go on then pointing fingers and snickering is exactly what everybody should be doing.

      --
      =~ s,(.*),<sarcasm>$1</sarcasm>,g if any_point_you_wish();
    2. Re:Not too bad actually by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have done a small poll of my own and while shopping recently spoke with some independent retailers (approx 9 of them) and they either do not carry Win 7 phone at all or have only a few but they ALL do not recommend them to their customers. They know when the customers become dissatisfied with them they will lose future sales. Don't believe any numbers from the Microsoft chain of product participants. This phone is DOA!

  24. WP7 in action by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  25. Re:Not suprised. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Who in their right mind would buy American cars? There are no domestically made cars that can even compare to their counterparts in Europe, Japan, or Korea.

  26. It's time to rebrand by Forrest+Kyle · · Score: 5, Insightful

    They shouldn't have attached the "Windows" brand to their phone. Windows is a desktop operating system. It has a popularized reputation (warranted or not) for being unwieldy, crashing, being expensive, and mostly dedicated to the accomplishment of boring or undesirable tasks like work, writing papers, using Office, etc. They should have created a new brand for the phone.

    Having a "Windows Phone" from Microsoft is sort of like IBM coming out with a social networking site called "The IBM Human Interaction System" and then marketing it to young people as hip and cool. There is an emotional and/or psychological disconnect between the nature of the product and the mental conception people have of the brand.

    Even though it's stupid, when I see the Android ads I think "oh cool, an ANDROID! I wonder what it can do? It looks futuristic. I kind of want one." (note: I don't have a smart phone because I think they are stupid.) However, when I hear the word "Windows Phone", it makes me feel like getting one would be like keeping a chunk of my job in pocket. No thanks.

    1. Re:It's time to rebrand by Nyder · · Score: 1

      ... (note: I don't have a smart phone because I think they are stupid.) ....

      rofl

      --
      Be seeing you...
    2. Re:It's time to rebrand by cyber-vandal · · Score: 3, Funny

      Microsoft trying to be cool is like dad trying to dance.

    3. Re:It's time to rebrand by Eil · · Score: 1

      Windows is a desktop operating system. It has a popularized reputation (warranted or not) for being unwieldy, crashing, being expensive, and mostly dedicated to the accomplishment of boring or undesirable tasks like work, writing papers, using Office, etc.

      And yet, every year millions of consumers in search of a fast shiny new computer still actively seek out one that runs Windows. Even though many of them know that the Mac is supposed to be an easier experience out of the box, familiarity and compatibility with their existing setup overrides all other considerations. That's the angle that Microsoft is taking by calling these "Windows" phones. They're trying to capture the part of the market that has held off on smart phones because they weren't sure whether the iPhone, Blackberry, or Android-based phones would integrate well with their computing workflow. Microsoft's marketing is so effective that your average worker drone doesn't know anything about using email outside of Outlook, nor anything about the web besides Internet Explorer, and wouldn't have a clue how to compose a memo in anything but Microsoft Office. But if they were to buy a "Windows" phone, it would surely come with their Outlook, their Internet Explorer, and their Microsoft Office.

      Microsoft's market acquisition strategy can be defined as "slow and steady wins the race." With the exception of MS-DOS, there's not a single area where they entered a market and became an overnight leader. They're doing the same with cell phones. Microsoft knows all of the hip technology-savvy early adopters already have an iPhone or Android-based phone. They're not going to flock in droves to a Windows phone which doesn't do anything significantly better than existing phones. However, Microsoft will slowly (and steadily) continue to market the Windows phones, close deals with major carriers, offer bargains to large companies and governments, and the platform will eventually inhabit a sizable chunk of the market. If MS plays their cards right, they can even gradually nudge RIM out of their own playground after a few years.

    4. Re:It's time to rebrand by dafing · · Score: 1

      (note: I don't have a smart phone because I think they are stupid.)

      Classic!

      I hope you'll decide to get a Smartphone or say, iPod Touch, just to see what all the fuss is about :-)

      --
      --- ...or a new slashdot signature. Dear aunt, let's set so double the killer delete select all
    5. Re:It's time to rebrand by Yunzil · · Score: 1

      Even though it's stupid, when I see the Android ads I think "oh cool, an ANDROID! I wonder what it can do?

      I don't know. When I see that one of the guy slowly turning into a Terminator in the meeting room I think, "Oh my god, he's turning into a robot! Someone should help him!"

      Not what I want out of a phone.

    6. Re:It's time to rebrand by Forrest+Kyle · · Score: 1

      Quite frankly, I would enjoy becoming a cyborg.

    7. Re:It's time to rebrand by iroll · · Score: 1

      What are you smoking? Nobody "actively seeks" Windows. Windows on your computer is like the milk in your latte; you have to actively seek an alternative. People might actively seek lattes, but they never say, "Make that with MILK please!!"

      Purchasing departments don't think, "Gotta get Windows this year!" They might think, "We have Windows; is there any incentive to switch?" Or they might think, "We're not using Windows; is there any incentive to switch?"

      Consumers don't think, "Man, so many choices... but I really want Windows!" They might think, "I'm building a gaming box; better grab copy of Windows." They might think, "I want a laptop, but I don't want a Mac. Looks like I'm getting Windows!"

      If you think millions of people are out there saying, "But where can I get that with WINDOWS!?" you're an idiot. I'm sure there's a few, but there's probably just as many people carrying around lists of Linux-friendly peripherals.

      --
      Repetition does not transform a lie into the truth. - FDR
    8. Re:It's time to rebrand by geoffrobinson · · Score: 1

      I don't know, maybe they should call it something like "Kin."

      They probably didn't have time to pay people millions of dollars to come up with a name.

      --
      Except for ending slavery, the Nazis, communism, & securing American independence, war has never solved anything.
    9. Re:It's time to rebrand by CodeBuster · · Score: 1

      They should have created a new brand for the phone.

      They already tried that with Kin and they pulled the plug when it became clear that it had failed to gain market traction.

    10. Re:It's time to rebrand by gmhowell · · Score: 1

      Microsoft trying to be cool is like dad trying to dance.

      Have you seen my black socks, I'm wearing sandals tonight?

      --
      Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
  27. smart phones... no longer interesting by fyngyrz · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The only functionality I use in my phone these days is the address book. Everything else I do through my iPad. If they'd add phone capabilities to the iPad (a bluetooth earpiece and adding a CDMA radio would do it) then I wouldn't even need a "phone" per se. Sure, I want to carry lots of functionality, but the tiny, tiny universe of a phone's screen just doesn't cut it anymore -- the iPad simply crushed that whole domain for me.

    As I'm carrying the iPad anyway, much less cumbersome and easier to use than a laptop, I surely am not tempted by Windows Phone 7, or iPhone, or Android. Once I took the step of deciding the iPad was worth carrying, smartphones simply became annoying.

    Hopefully Apple/Jobs will see the opportunity and run with it. Add a couple of cameras, phone capability, perhaps an IR emitter for controlling my home widgetry... hopefully get rid of that ridiculous expanse of bezel and design in a decent grip on the backside... wireless charging and wireless sync... now that's what I'm talking about. That's how to get my money. [waves money around cheerily]

    Even if such a wonder doesn't get made, it still boils down to phone+address book is all I have to go for right now. And I have to say, it's a relief to be able to skip every Engadget and Gizmodo post that is about a phone -- cuts my reading time down to a fraction of what it used to be, while the reality of it all cuts my phone bill down at the same time (because my phone is now a cheapie LG with no "data plan"), and all the while I've got more power and usability (particularly with regard to display real estate and touch surface) at hand -- with free wifi -- than can be crammed into the tiny bit of real estate smartphone designs provide. :)

    --
    I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    1. Re:smart phones... no longer interesting by dissy · · Score: 1

      If they'd add phone capabilities to the iPad (a bluetooth earpiece and adding a CDMA radio would do it) then I wouldn't even need a "phone" per se.

      While not exactly native cell phone functionality, I have had great success with whisper voip on my iPad using the normal headphones and mic.
      If you have a 3G enabled iPad, you can then install either My3G or VoIPover3G too. Then you can place and receive calls over wifi, 3g, or bluetooth.

      Whisper even has a 'free' option if you don't mind listening to an ad. (Good for testing purposes anyway.)

      I'm sure there are other VOIP clients out there with different services and price plans.
      Even Skype with My3G would do the trick, if you already have an account with them or don't mind setting one up with a public phone number.

      I must admit I only installed Whisper to play around with. I still prefer the smaller form factor for a cell phone myself. It was still impressive none the less.
      At the very least, it should be worth the funny looks from holding an iPad to your head like an over-sized iPhone while having a conversation ;}

    2. Re:smart phones... no longer interesting by dissy · · Score: 1

      Sonofa, oops... My mistake

      Whisper is a chat client. The app I meant to share is Whistle!

      http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/whistle-phone/id322326573?mt=8

    3. Re:smart phones... no longer interesting by amRadioHed · · Score: 1

      The iPad's a bit awkward to walk around with in your pocket, isn't it? I can't see something that big ever being as universally accessable as a smart phone.

      --
      We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
    4. Re:smart phones... no longer interesting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      IMHO, if I were in your shoes, I'd prefer a featurephone / smartphone tethered to a tablet. I mean, how awkward would it be to carry around a ~12" (diagonal) device everywhere you go? i.e. a ballgame? Sure the 10" offers a huge screen, but it's not convenient (and is quite obvious if you ever get mugged... kinda hard to hide that =P). It's not something you can stuff in a normal pant pocket and forget about.

      A 7" tablet would be the most I'd carry around with me all day, and I think that's the market the Galaxy Tab is going for (Half a TABlet, the Tab -- get it? ^.^).

    5. Re:smart phones... no longer interesting by _Sprocket_ · · Score: 1

      It's all about the right interface for the job. While a pad may provide more real-estate than a smartphone and more mobility than a laptop, it strikes me as being far too bulky to lug around everywhere I go like my smartphone and entirely the wrong platform for general computing tasks. What I want is platforms playing to their strengths and the ability to quickly move data between them. Of course, what I expect is the Industry to tout each platform as the next coming for IT that will completely eliminate all other platforms and our entire concept of how we interact with the world.

    6. Re:smart phones... no longer interesting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The iPad's a bit awkward to walk around with in your pocket, isn't it? I can't see something that big ever being as universally accessable as a smart phone.

      Is that a iPad in your pocket or are you just happy to see me?

    7. Re:smart phones... no longer interesting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Sorry, but you sound just like a tool.

      I love my evo, big screen, responsive, but not too big.

      I do more on my evo than i normally do on my laptop.

      Email, messages, internet, news, games (just to kill a few minutes), movies, music, documents, photos and still get to use it as a phone.

      It wont replace my desktop until they are making 6tb microsd cards. But it does everything i need it to do while away from home and is far less bulky then any tablet out there.

    8. Re:smart phones... no longer interesting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Man, you seem really obsessed about yourself, to the extent of hijacking a discussion about Win 7 phones. Try avoiding the first person pronoun for five minutes.

    9. Re:smart phones... no longer interesting by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

      There's no significant 3G service where I live, so wifi is pretty much "it." Thanks for the tips, though!

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    10. Re:smart phones... no longer interesting by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

      The iPad's a bit awkward to walk around with in your pocket, isn't it?

      Sure, but that's not how I carry it. I'm a photographer, and I've always got my DSLR (and a bunch of other photo-oriented stuff... grey card, mini tripod, video camera, etc.) in an army surplus utility bag; the bag's got a slot that fits the iPad perfectly. Given that the bag is hanging there anyway, it required zero lifestyle changes. Not saying this is for everybody, but for me, it was simply the obvious thing to do.

      I can't see something that big ever being as universally accessable as a smart phone.

      Well, the thing is, with a bluetooth earpiece, I never take the phone out of the bag, either. Wouldn't change how I use things at all, just where the bluetooth connection was going, really. Tap the earpiece, "dial bob", call made. Earpiece rings, tap it, answer. That's how I use my phone. If I have to interact with an address book, say, add you to it, I'd much rather have the real estate the iPad provides to work with. I'm old, my eyes are failing.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    11. Re:smart phones... no longer interesting by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

      Well, if I'm going to be obsessed about someone, better me than you, and better my issues than yours. If you're not interested, simply ignore my posts. Or, if you're simply looking for an opportunity to be snarky, by all means, have at me. Though I kind of pity you if that's all you have to entertain yourself with.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
  28. Re:Not suprised. by JDmetro · · Score: 0

    Dodge 3500 with HO 5.9 Cummins inline six. I'd buy it even if its made in Mexico. Cummins is awesome met 2008 emision standards in 2005 bitches.

  29. Well, if it is still struggling... by John+Hasler · · Score: 1

    ...it isn't dead yet.

    Wouldn't it be kinder to put it out of its misery, though?

    --
    Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
  30. T-Mobile had BOGO too... for Galaxy S by phsource · · Score: 1

    While shopping for phones earlier this year, I checked out the T-Mobile store with my brother to get a family plan. Lo-and-behold, they offered the buy-one-get-one-free deal on the Samsung Galaxy S, an Android phone that is, if anything, selling like hotcakes. In the end, we didn't get T-Mobiles because of the higher phone costs and instead settled for an Evo across the street.

    Still, it's not just phones that aren't selling that get promotional gimmicks like rebates and buy-one-get-one-frees. I bet the article writer just saw these two things and tried to put them together by the deadline. Don't read into this too deeply.

  31. Re:Not suprised. by JDmetro · · Score: 0

    No comment from the windoze bitches suprise suprise.

  32. Re:Not suprised. by Wingsy · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Tell me where I can get the equivalent of a 2011 Chrysler 300 SRT/8 for $50k or less please. Don't waste my time if it has less than 400hp.

    --
    If I didn't have absolutely NOTHING to do, I wouldn't be here.
  33. I'm surprised they don't take a page from the XBOX by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is all joking of course, but what if MS convinced the telco to only allow you to call certain numbers if you've got a Windows 7 phone? It would be just like the original XBOX, where they bought exclusivity of games from the competitors, like Shenmue II and halo, rather than create innovative and fun games themselves.

    I can see it now. When I try to call Tom, I could get a recorded message that says "This number is only available to a Windows 7 phone.".

  34. The Emperor's Invisible Slip is Showing by serutan · · Score: 4, Insightful

    When people use Windows 7 sales numbers to show how successful and popular Windows 7 is, I keep reminding them that the numbers primarily reflect PC sales. Windows 7 just happens to be there. Sales of new cars automatically implies sales of new tires, not that the tires themselves are a hit with consumers. What we're seeing in Windows phone sales is an example of the dismal performance of most Microsoft products when they actually have to compete on an equal footing.

    1. Re:The Emperor's Invisible Slip is Showing by fat_mike · · Score: 1

      What about corporate licensing? We bought a site license to cover our 1200 users. Then we made a standard Window 7 image with all of our applications and policies in place and sent that to our hardware vendor.

      This is what a lot of corporations do and kind of shoots your theory in the foot.

      Or is this still a Linux taking on Windows on the Desktop (but not the corporate desktop, shhh its our dirty secret)?

  35. Folks have learned their lesson by cyclocommuter · · Score: 1

    Folks cannot trust Microsoft that it will stick with Windows Phone 7 in the long run. They have seen Pocket PC, Zune, and various embedded OSes and gadgets from Microsoft abandoned in the last couple of years.

    1. Re:Folks have learned their lesson by Shados · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Thats unfortunately the issue. Microsoft has been going "Try something, if its not a uber success after 2 weeks, drop it, start over with something else". After getting screwed with the Zune (which was a formidable device at the time) in Canada (no music store ever made the light of day, even though they promised over and over and over), the Zune HD virtually not making it out of the states (and got forgotten after its first push), I don't see why Windows 7 Phone (which IS completely awesome btw) would be any different.

      As a .NET dev who knows Silverlight, I could easily go and make stuff for Windows Phone 7. Will I? Lol, I'm not that stupid...

  36. who is a microsoft fan? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

    Microsoft sucks. They have no style. Who on earth REALLY is a fan? If people weren't so engrained into using windows everywhere, Microsoft would be a failing company. Everything they touch turns to shit.

  37. Facebook metrics by NuShrike · · Score: 1

    says it's about 77K people. You can probably discount about ~50K of that as the developers and MS/Dell employee giveaway, however.

    http://www.facebook.com/apps/application.php?id=135892916448833&v=info

  38. The reason why people won't buy... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The "Fashionable" and luddites will want APL
    The Feature Freak / Freedom(open) Fighter will want Android
    The ones going after UI will want Pre/Pre2

    Who's left? The handful of Microsoft fans (not all MS users, they fit in one of the above). I'm fairly sure I can count the number of Microsofties that I know of personally on one hand.

  39. Re:Ballmer was the worst thing ever to happen to M by gtall · · Score: 1

    I don't know about Ballmer, surely he is no motivator with that Leghorn Foghorn mouth...it's a turnoff. And he has no technical chops.

    However, I think Microsoft is merely a product of their times. IBM handed them the opportunity for a monopoly, and they took advantage of it (and IBM). They managed to get their foot in the door when companies were building out their computing infrastructure when an IBM-centered infrastructure couldn't do would companies wanted. So Microsoft was able to ride the wave and integrate their software offerings, thus lockin. Playing dirty also helped them.

    Now, the computing paradigm is changing again....or rather, it is moving along the same trajectory again after being stuck in the build out phase of IBM-free infrastructure. Now it is changed to what used to be called pervasive computing a few years ago...dunno what it is called now. The writing was on the wall in 2000 when pervasive computing was getting a head of steam at universities. Microsoft was caught flatfooted thinking their prowess at signing contracts with PHBs somehow meant they were on the cutting edge of innovation.

    I don't think Apple saw their current success back when they started the iPod. I think they realized there might be a market for a good interface on a useful and potentially ubiquitous device. Once that hit big, they realized the gameplan of targeting a moribund but ubiquitous technology could be quite lucrative if they were able to move fast and demand an easy, intuitive interface. Microsoft isn't quick, they have no sense of class which is really what underlies an interface people really want to use, and they are stuck on selling to PHBs....who now have bean counters breathing down their necks. If it weren't for desktop lockin, they'd be dead. And if desktops turn into a moribund market, Microsoft is toast.

    Ray Ozzie was forward thinking enough, but it isn't clear anyone at Microsoft was listening. Gates making a comeback won't help them, he's the guy to built the sclerotic Microsoft bureaucracy and yesterday's gameplan. IBM only managed because they found a ready market in business services and they knew the service industry since a lot of it still runs on their iron. Can Microsoft find such a market, or new business plan?

  40. Disgraceful by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This "article" reeks of apple sponsored FUD.

    I know slashdot has been hijacked and subverted by many adverts for apple products posing as genuine stories, and as such is now one the most vehement apple cheerleading vehicles on the internet, but even by this sites standards this "article" is despicable muck. Not a shred of evidence, an entire article based on mindless speculation.

    What the fuck has happened to this place?

  41. Some coal for your stocking ... by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

    "Hey, let's all hate on Microsoft without a shred of evidence, it's slashdot!"

    Without a shred of evidence? You wouldn't happen to be related to the guy who wrote "1984" would you? Also, when your local store offers a BOGO at Christmas time it may be spreading the holiday cheer. When Microsoft - who only offered BOGOs once in all of history (when their product wasn't selling well, no less) - starts offering them, and their sales is under 2% then, yes, it is reasonable to conclude their is a motivation other than holiday cheer.

    --
    Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    1. Re:Some coal for your stocking ... by Your.Master · · Score: 1

      It's AT&T that did the buy one get one, not Microsoft.

  42. Re:Not suprised. by RightSaidFred99 · · Score: 1

    For a first time Win 7 "user"

    Wow, you don't say? Someone who's never used Windows 7 and thinks it takes more time to install Nero (why?) on Windows 7 has biases against Windows and Windows mobile 7?

    Color me shocked. Might I also venture a guess that you have poor social skills, personal hygiene, and have an irregular, poorly shaved, patch beard growing its way down your neck?

  43. Re:Microsoft Needs to Make a Compelling Case..prep by Teun · · Score: 1

    But then you need competing sim-only plans like in Europe.

    --
    "The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
  44. Ballmer by joshm01oh · · Score: 1

    Ballmer is crazy and only got the CEO job because he was college buddies with Bill Gates, but just because MSFT is failing at phones and bing does not mean he is a bad CEO. He has helped the MSFT cash cows (Office/Windows) increase in revenue and profits. MSFT is losing phones but they are winning with their enterprise/desktop software products. Even Xbox is starting to show some success with their xbox live service.

  45. Windows Mobile 7 = Porsche 911 GT3 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When it is on the HTC Mozart.

    Sadly, thought you can't get in the driver's side, because a man similar to your grandfather is your chauffeur and he's wearing his driving cap.

    When you get in, you realize that it a floor shift auto.

    But at least the stereo works, but you are limited to one CD - WMA, if you please.

    The HTC Mozart, would be the equivalent of getting the largest engine with twin turbo's - but you can't have a fuel tank bigger than 2 liters.

    I won't even get into the fact with Aussie telco Telstra (the only one with any decent coverage, sadly) the only roads you can go on are littered with MS and Telstra/Foxtel billboards.

    I am a Wintel Network admin (and just to keep some /.'s happy, that includes a few linux servers and VMware) and the Windows Mobile 7, just is bad.

    MS tried to build an "iPhone killer" and have missed a potentially huge marked - businesses.

    I loved the HTC Mozart handset. With the Android OS, it would rock - but MS has strong armed HTC into releasing the Mozart with ONLY Windows Mobile 7.

    I got 8 hours of battery out of it - I did have it connected to our Exchange server, looked at Facebook once an looked at the GPS maps (MS Bing Maps would at least show the Suburb I was in - give or take about 5KM's). Apparently, that is about normal.

    I own two HTC handsets, JasJam and Touch Diamond, both with Windows Mobile (forget what is on the JasJam) 6.1. I put both of those OS's over 7. My Touch gives me at least 2 days of battery before it needs a charge, and this is getting Exchange mail as well.

    The HTC Mozart is a really good handset, I'd get one - but with Android, thanks.

  46. Re:Ballmer was the worst thing ever to happen to M by sunspot42 · · Score: 1

    In general I agree with what you've said up above, but I think this statement misses something more fundamental:

    I don't think Apple saw their current success back when they started the iPod.

    I think Steve Jobs has wanted to create a Dynabook for going on 30 years now, but the technology wasn't in place to do it right until quite recently. The iPad is something that's been in the works for decades. The iPod and the iPhone were diversions which, ironically, gave Apple a lot of the insights, the technology and the marketshare/mindshare to make the iPad possible sooner than it might have been otherwise (and more successful).

    And the iPhone probably only came about because Motorola so thoroughly f*cked up their ROKR that Apple gave up on partnering with existing cell manufacturers and decided to take the risk of going it alone themselves.

  47. WHERE ELSE DO I GET TO WRITE FUCK YOU !! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And laugh all the while as some nubile young lassie mods me up and down and up and down and up and down.

    Now quit breakin my heart and FUCK YOU !!

  48. MSFT & Ballmer... by FlyingGuy · · Score: 1

    Memo to Microsoft Board of Directors

    He has to go, period.

    He represents all that is wrong with Microsoft, perceived or true, he represents it. He represents MS from the bad old days when competition meant using cash to wreck other companies by stealing their talent because they might or in fact have come out with software that was better then the stuff you were thinking of doing or were actually doing.

    He has been utterly, completely and publicly flat out wrong about so many things and in the context of Windows Mobile you have but only to see his public comments dismissing the iPhone.

    Microsoft has development teams that other companies and many governments only dream of having. Imagine what Microsoft could do if those teams were not played against each other, not held back by his myopic vision, not restricted by utterly insane S & M strategies. Just imagine what they could do if they teamed up with some of the best development minds outside their campus. Imagine what the Windows OS could be like if it was combined with best of Linux or what Linux could be like combined with best of Windows.

    --
    Hey KID! Yeah you, get the fuck off my lawn!
  49. Herp Derp by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If they had only included features that were available in WM6 such as data tethering, copy & paste, etc. they might be doing better.... I still have my WM6 phone and I am not about to downgrade my features to go to WM7. Looks like Android is the new OS for me.

  50. So What ARE Win Phone 7 Sales Numbers? by Ensign_Expendable · · Score: 2, Interesting

    One thing that does not bode well for Win 7 phone is the fact that MS is silent on sales figures. A Google search yields exactly one fact: they sold 40,000 units on the first day. I would assume they would crowing about their phone sales the same way they are bragging about their Kinect sales figures. Thurrott's site was talking Win Phone 7 for six months. Now, except for a link to his Win 7 Phone Guide, there is zero mention of the phone on his site.

  51. Market momentum by earlymon · · Score: 1

    http://www.toptechnews.com/story.xhtml?story_id=023000QNLD00&full_skip=1

    http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Mobile-and-Wireless/Apple-Android-Sales-Soar-Despite-Component-Shortages-in-Q3-692598/

    Last I heard, Android was activating 200k handsets per day.

    Bedwetting over whether Android or iPhone is better is reaching tidal levels.

    RIM continues to decline. WebOS is not setting any sales records.

    WMP7 _could_ turn things around and make MS powerful in the cell phone market - but seriously, it just looks like too little, too late to me.

    The new Android wave is driven by converts, unhappy with what was out there.

    I see nothing driving a WMP7 wave beyond legacy users - and that's not going to be good enough.

    Even the apologists are describing Android "like the new Windows on smartphones." God forbid they come out and admit that Android is Linux and that they never got that the OSes should work for us - not polarize us into fan camps.

    But I could be wrong. It's entirely possible that the best thing you could do would be to completely trust Microsoft to build a compact operating system that works swimmingly on much-less-than-desktop hardware.

    Meanwhile, Android and iOS are proving to be effective at driving handsets and tablets.

    --
    Pathological kinda promises Path + Logical - but instead, you get stuck with pathetic.
  52. A Shame by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    MS puts out what is by most estimates a good product and it gets nowhere. I wonder why? Is Steve Jobs magical marketing aura too high, Windows Mobile too tainted, the Microsoft label tainted altogether?

    1. Re:A Shame by alobar72 · · Score: 1

      I think they are just to Late in the Game. The sudden Drop of wm 6 shocked many business customers. And now I believe it is mostly the "who needs another platform" reason

  53. I hate driving by jayveekay · · Score: 1

    If I could buy a car that got me to my destination without the time and hassle of requiring me to guide it and avoid traffic/bad drivers, then that would be a feature that I would value. So, if there is someone out there working on a car for people who hate driving, I'd like to encourage them to continue working on it. Do not be discouraged by the preceding poster.

    1. Re:I hate driving by timbos · · Score: 1

      If I could buy a car that got me to my destination without the time and hassle of requiring me to guide it and avoid traffic/bad drivers, then that would be a feature that I would value. So, if there is someone out there working on a car for people who hate driving, I'd like to encourage them to continue working on it. Do not be discouraged by the preceding poster.

      Perhaps it could run on some sort of metal guides embedded in the road. You could then create a network of these guides and maybe even share the vehicle with others -- perhaps the city could own them and the infrastructure and you could just pay when you need to use it?

  54. Windows Phone 7 Sales Continue To Struggle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    OH YEAH BABY!

  55. starting a holy war by djdavetrouble · · Score: 1

    sudo vi ~/.ascensionrc

    --
    music lover since 1969
  56. Don't get into the software business by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

    "It's AT&T that did the buy one get one, not Microsoft."

    FTA:

    "AT&T, Microsoft push Windows Phone 7 hard with BOGO deal
    updated 05:15 pm EST, Tue November 23, 2010
    ATT and Microsoft start BOGO holiday deal for WP7
    AT&T and Microsoft today hoped to keep Windows Phone 7 sales and today unveiled a Buy One Get One deal (BOGO) for Black Friday."

    You evidently can't tell the difference between and and not.

    --
    Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
  57. Haters! by yoshi_mon · · Score: 1

    I guess I'm over hating Microsoft just to hate on them because dammit I want facts if I am gonna hate.

    - The US market for cell phones is so fubared with contracts that the idea that an new OS is gonna change the market in a quarter is silly.
    - It is the holiday season and while there I'm sure are people that would give someone a new phone as a gift the econ is not exactly strong right now and there are plenty of other things that people are using as gifts as well.
    - Even thou a lot of sites/people that I trust have said that the Win7Mo OS is decent it's nothing groundbreaking like the iPhone OS was. As such to go back to my 1st point to expect that such a thing will change the market in a quarter is silly.

    I know it's nothing new but I guess after enough exposure to it after the mass media has picked up the idea of making outrage up if there is none to be had I'd like /. to at least try harder.

    --

    Really, I know what I'm doing...Ohhhh, look at the shiny buttons!
  58. Re:Ballmer was the worst thing ever to happen to M by gtall · · Score: 1

    Oh, given that history of which I wasn't quite aware, I think you are right.

  59. Re:Not suprised. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Might I suggest you are a retarded douchebag. I can read the icon on the Win7 desktop that say "Install Nero". Double click and wait for a blue circle to spin around for a very long time. Better yet why isn't it pre-installed? For that matter why isn't windows pre-installed? I've used every version of windows there is and my first experience with win 7 is its a piece of shit. You never explained why I can install a linux distro that comes with Bassero installed in the same time it takes Nero to install?
      I doubt it has anything to do with my beard as I'm clean shaven because I wear SCBA. Maybe pick the crumbs off your fat belly and crawl out of you mom's basement looser.

  60. **cough** What?!?!? by LostMyBeaver · · Score: 1

    Did you seriously just say "If a user doesn't want to use the application IT supports and for which they received training, they can find another job."?

    I'm sorry are you living in a world where you think that IT is THAT important? I mean really. What little planet do you live on?

    IT is a service. In fact, beyond Teir 1 support, it shouldn't even have a physical presence in an organization. In fact, it should be more like building maintenance. When a company moves into a new building, they get janitors, window washers, front reception, security and IT services as part of their rent.

    Most companies don't require anything more than computers running Windows or Mac OS X, Microsoft Office, some decent web mail, and remote access. That's it. IT exists purely to run the server, install programs and reinstall computers when they fail. Taking backups might help as well.

    In fact, most of the server stuff these days should be run from a virtual machine which can be hosted on servers at any of 100 different local service providers.

    This isn't 1980. It doesn't take a masters degree to operate a server. Keeping e-mail, VPN and a file server running can be done by the boss's 13 year old skateboarding kid most of the time. It's trivial. When you get to an enterprise scale, then instead of building an IT department, you should start a separate external IT company to handle the tasks and that company should be required to bid at the end of each contract period to keep the contract.

    Let me assure you that you as an IT drone are disposable and replaceable. On the other hand, the guy who wants Outlook on his computer because after graduating high school with a solid 1.2 GPA and a football jersey is walking around with a little black book he wants to keep in Outlook that is good for $1,000,000 of sales on each phone call to an old football buddy he makes. Replacing him is next to impossible.

    Is it fair that it's like that... well no. Is it reality? yes. Don't pretend for a minute that as an IT guy you're anything that can't be replaced. You're no different than the guy who bangs a wrench on the boiler in winter to make it work.

    The only exception to this is, when the company itself is a tech company. And then, IT is bottom of the totem pole since the engineers can do that job too if they had the time.

    Whatever you do, understand that if the user wants Outlook, you can try and convince them otherwise, offer good alternatives. But if they say "I know outlook and am comfortable in it and would prefer not to switch". Then you install outlook and find a way to support it or he'll suggest to his drinking buddy the CEO that the IT department gets restructured.

    1. Re:**cough** What?!?!? by Crudely_Indecent · · Score: 1

      I'm no longer in IT. I never wanted to be in IT. I just ended up there because the job needed to be done right. After seven years running an IT department (and never having a subordinate last more than 2 months) I'm happy to be back in development.

      My current organization uses an email infrastructure that doesn't support Outlook. So, it's completely true that if a user is hell bent on using Outlook, they won't be able to send or receive email within the organization, which will probably cost them their job. While I don't like the mail system they have in place, two soup cans and a piece of twine is better than Outlook, so I don't complain.

      Now, I'll fully support any claim that I don't belong in a service position. While working my way through school I learned to hate end users the BOFH way.

      I have no doubt that there is a special place in hell for people like me. No doubt, there will be non-stop calls requiring me to support IncrediMail and MagicJack.

      --


      "Lame" - Galaxar
  61. Androids! Androids! Androids! by spage · · Score: 1

    The recent Radio Shack flyer was 80% Android phones. On Black Friday my local Best Buy had an end cap station promoting Samsung and Huawei Android tablets, and behind them rows of Android phones; I looked for a Windows 7 phone and couldn't find one. I think you can get a decent (as in "Would have blown anyone's mind 5 years ago") Android phone running Froyo 2.2 for $0 with a 2-year plan from every carrier, at which point the only reason to get a lesser phone is if you can't afford the data plan. I got an LG Optimus S "for free" along with an HTC Evo.

    Sorry Ballmer, maybe Windows Phone 7.1 or IX

    --
    =S
  62. greenparent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I would love a WP7 phone, but I've heard it won't sync with Outlook 2007, as all my current contacts, calendar and tasks are all important to me, why would I upgrade? Playing with the phone in a shop, the interface seems fine!