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Aging Reversed In Mice

Hugh Pickens writes "The Guardian reports that scientists claim to be a step closer to reversing the aging process after experimental treatment developed by researchers at Harvard Medical School turned weak and feeble old mice into healthy animals by regenerating their aged bodies. 'What we saw in these animals was not a slowing down or stabilization of the aging process. We saw a dramatic reversal – and that was unexpected,' says Ronald DePinho, who led the study. The Harvard group focused on a process called telomere shortening where each time a cell divides, the telomeres are snipped shorter, until eventually they stop working and the cell dies or goes into a suspended state called 'senescence.' Researchers bred genetically manipulated mice that lacked an enzyme called telomerase that stops telomeres getting shorter causing the mice to age prematurely and suffer ailments, including a poor sense of smell, smaller brain size, infertility and damaged intestines and spleens. When the mice were given injections to reactivate the enzyme, it repaired the damaged tissues and reversed the signs of aging raising hope among scientists that it may be possible to achieve a similar feat in humans – or at least to slow down the aging process."

554 comments

  1. Old news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    This isn't worth posting.

    1. Re:Old news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Just inject some telomerase and it'll be back in its prime. Also, cancerous.

    2. Re:Old news by sznupi · · Score: 2, Funny

      ...Also, cancerous.

      Might be not much of a problem, in the range of a lifespan typical for a mouse. For us OTOH...

      But it's good to see that biological neural networks being part of computer known as Earth work on upgrades of their true rulers.

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    3. Re:Old news by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      Ahh but here's the kicker - I give you a choice - have your body begin to wither at age 40, and die at around age 70, or have your body be perfect until age 150, and you die of cancer at age 160?

      It might not be so bad as it seems.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    4. Re:Old news by peragrin · · Score: 2, Insightful

      in reality it would be closer to have your body begin to whither at 40 and die at 70, or have a decent body until your 70 and you can drop dead of cancer at any time after 40.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    5. Re:Old news by heathen_01 · · Score: 1

      Which is still an improvement.

    6. Re:Old news by ByOhTek · · Score: 2, Informative

      Not really - mice, unlike humans, normally have telomerase functioning throughout their entire lifespans. Telomere shortening is not an issue for them.

      Actually, if I remember my undergrad genetics correctly, unless you know people living to around 800 years old, it's not an issue for people either.

      --
      Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
    7. Re:Old news by ByOhTek · · Score: 4, Informative

      Telomerase activation shouldn't give you cancer. First of all, your telomeres won't be a problem untill you are in the 700-800 year range (if I remember my undergrad genetics courses correctly). At least, outside of the white blood cell lineages, those will probably go for most people in the first 100 years - they could probably use some telomerase. OK, so lets say you would normally get cancer by the time you were 150, thankfully, your white blood cells stop functioning so well around age 90 and you die of pneumonia instead. Now, lets assume the other causes of aging are fixed, so, that's pretty much the standard.

      Insert telomerase. You now live to 150, and die of cancer. Did the telomerase give you cancer? No, it just allowed you to live long enough for the factors that did give you cancer to take hold.

      You do have cells in your body producing telomerase - the gamete producing lineage. You can trace telomerase back to the development of successful linear DNA from that lineage - without break. No cancer. Telomerase is a DNA stabilizing agent, not a mutagen.

      --
      Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
    8. Re:Old news by ozmanjusri · · Score: 1
      unless you know people living to around 800 years old

      Or clones.

      --
      "I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
    9. Re:Old news by mibe · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Telomerase activation doesn't "give" you cancer, but the lack of telomerase in most of our tissues is an important block to cancer. All cancers must find a way around the problem that telomerase solves - the incremental loss of genetic material with each successive cell division. Telomerase is not necessary or sufficient to cause cancer (they may also end up with cyclized chromosomes), but its control is likely tied to control of cancer.

    10. Re:Old news by Magada · · Score: 1

      Cyclized chromosomes are more stable. Ionizing radiation therefore hurts them less. The tradeoff might be interesting to make.

      --
      Something bad is coming when people are suddenly anxious to tell the truth.
    11. Re:Old news by ByOhTek · · Score: 1

      Telomerase allows a cancer line to become "immortal" (or maybe a term I've seen before, "emmortal" might be better - won't age, but can die). Anyway, I believe the vast majority of cancer lines are not immortal. I wonder what the increase of cancer would be with telomerase added? I'd have to guess fairly small. More likely it's not produced simply because the energy expenditure doesn't provide a worthwhile gain, we only attain between 1/12 and 1/8th the age where it would become useful.

      --
      Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
    12. Re:Old news by mibe · · Score: 2, Informative

      On the contrary, the vast majority of human cancers have telomerase (are "immortal"), perhaps what you're thinking of is the ability to grow in culture, which is a relatively rarer phenomenon (HeLa cell line!) but nowadays can be artificially induced. This makes sense because a cancer's rapid growth rate would be unsustainable in the long term without some way of getting around telomere loss. The rapid division combined with most cancer's predisposition to mutation results in natural selection for these specific kinds of mutations - the first cell to express telomerase, for example, will out-compete his shorter-lived brothers in the long run, so inevitably all cancers wind up circumventing the telomere issue in one way or another. If you've got access, you can read this nice review article: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9282118

    13. Re:Old news by BrokenHalo · · Score: 1

      Yeah, right. While bacteria work well with circular chromosomes, mice and men might have some difficulty with that, not least with all the machinery relating to genetic expression. Lots of scary scenarios (scenaria?) come to mind, but the simple fact is that us eukaryotes are not biochemically equipped to deal with circularised chromosomes, and our lives would be very short.

    14. Re:Old news by slagell · · Score: 1

      It doesn't give you cancer, it makes it more virulent and harder to stop.

    15. Re:Old news by DrgnDancer · · Score: 1

      I don't fully comprehend all the argument here, not having had a huge background in genetics, but I do recall something that my Bio 101 teacher said... It went along the lines of "If you live long enough, you will get cancer". As I recall her basic argument was that whether or not aging per se increases your odds of getting cancer on a case by case basis, the longer you live the more cell divisions you're going to have and the more chance that one of them is wrong enough to cause a problem. So assuming all other things being equal, eventually your chance of getting some kind of cancer approaches 100%.

      Not that his is exactly a problem... I mean, I'd rather live to a healthy 150 knowing that my chance for cancer is steadily rising after about 60, then pretty much be guaranteed that I won't make it past 100 and that everything after 75 or so is a crap shoot on the "healthy"; but it's still likely that if we could mostly eliminate other forms of degenerative death we'll all eventually die of cancer, right?

      --
      I don't need a million points of light, just two points of multi-mode fiber and a 10 Gig-E router.
    16. Re:Old news by Surt · · Score: 1

      Meh. I'm over 40, and I'd seriously prefer not to die in the next decade, at least so far.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    17. Re:Old news by jameskojiro · · Score: 1

      By the time you reach 150 you would hope they have figured out mind uploading and you can trade up for a cancer free shiny prosthetic body.

      --
      Tsukasa: All I really want, is to be left alone...
    18. Re:Old news by Rizz · · Score: 1

      No doubt. I don't want want to live forever, just long enough to piss my great great grandchildren off when they have to change the age field in their databases from a tinyint() or byte to something more worthy.

    19. Re:Old news by Magada · · Score: 1

      Scenarios? What scenarios? Do tell.

      --
      Something bad is coming when people are suddenly anxious to tell the truth.
    20. Re:Old news by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      First post (or will be when I inject telomerase)

    21. Re:Old news by mibe · · Score: 1

      To hazard a guess, I imagine most of our cell division machinery wouldn't work very well with circular chromosomes. It's very important to get the chromosomal composition correct before division, that's why there are so many checks during the cell cycle (p53/cyclin system). Nondysjunction is the primary issue I foresee, which could have innumerable problems - cell differentiation, survival, etc. Cancer cells on the other hand don't care about all that, and in many cases their only goal (reproduction) is served by an abnormal chromosome content, as altering the copy number of genes can increase growth activators or decrease growth inhibitors through the loss or retention of whole chromosomes or fragments of chromosomes.

    22. Re:Old news by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      "Ahh but here's the kicker - I give you a choice - have your body begin to wither at age 40, and die at around age 70, or have your body be perfect until age 150, and you die of cancer at age 160?"

      I'll take the latter example.

      And hell, by the time I'm about 160...maybe they'll find a cure for cancer about then???

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    23. Re:Old news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I looked at the article, the substance they gave the mice is "4-OHT." A google search of that substance indicates that it is sometimes used to TREAT breast cancer. So it seems that it doesn't necessarily cause cancer.

    24. Re:Old news by sjames · · Score: 1

      Telomerase won't give you cancer, but telomere shortening is one of several mechanisms that prevents cells with damage from becoming cancer.

      When a cell mutates so that it starts dividing as quickly as it possibly can rather than at a controlled rate, it could easily become a cancer. However, with each division the telomeres get shorter until the whole line dies off. Assuming that mechanism is working, you will be saved from the cancer. Telomerase disables that protective mechanism.

      In the germ line, the telomerase is active in cells destined for meiosis, a process that renders further division impossible unless/until fertilization. The process of dividing into a gamete, fertilization, and producing a viable fertile adult organism to continue the process constitutes a significant fitness test.

    25. Re:Old news by ByOhTek · · Score: 1

      ding. Hammer, meet nail head.

      Circular chromosomes are fine for relatively small genomes, but they are horribly slow for larger genomes. It's a lot harder to dupe them in parallel as you can with a linear chromosome.

      --
      Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
    26. Re:Old news by ByOhTek · · Score: 1

      Good link, guess my prof was wrong. Thanks.

      --
      Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
    27. Re:Old news by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      Looking at the star trek memory wall, there is a spike of cancer deaths in the 40's and a larger spike of heart attack deaths in the 60's.

      LD50 for men is age 75. Women is higher (78?).

      It's all about the odds. Say you went from 25% heart attack death to 10% cancer death and LD50 rose to age 80. And everyone had a 30 year old body until they died. Some until 95. Some, unfortunately at 45.

      You don't know before you get the treatment but you know on average that you'll benefit.

      I'd go for it.

      If I'm older than 40 and have known organ failure type risks (liver and heart are common), then it would be a "no brainer".

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    28. Re:Old news by Gilmoure · · Score: 1

      Not a head in a jar? I want to be on the same shelf with Uhuru!

      --
      I drank what? -- Socrates
    29. Re:Old news by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      scenarios (scenaria?)

      "Scenario" is derived from Latin, but it is not Latin, don't attempt to make it so. It doesn't have a Latin ending, don't try to give it one.

      The proper pluralization for "scenario" is "scenarios".

      End grammar rant.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    30. Re:Old news by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      Except that 90% cancers produce their own telomerase.

      The problem is the abnormal cell division, not the immortality of the cells. That they are immortal allows them to become dangerous, but so does the fact that they can metabolize glucose. Being able to shut that down might be an effective treatment, but it isn't the cause and the fact that healthy cells die off early shouldn't be seen as a good thing.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    31. Re:Old news by sjames · · Score: 1

      Yes, some cells suffer multiple abnormalities that do allow them to become a cancer. Telomeres are just one of several protections against that. Without that mechanism there would be more cancers.

      Other involved mutations disable other apoptosis mechanisms.

      One way around that would be periodic screening for cancer followed by a telomere restoration treatment followed by careful post treatment followup.

    32. Re:Old news by Anthony+Mouse · · Score: 1

      It doesn't give you cancer, it makes it more virulent and harder to stop.

      So tell me if I've got this right: You take injections of this stuff, it makes you stop aging, but it makes cancer more aggressive.

      So if you get cancer, why don't you just stop taking it?

    33. Re:Old news by MaskedSlacker · · Score: 1

      LD50 for men is age 75. Women is higher (78?

      LD50 means Lethal Dose for 50%.

      I think you mean MTBF -- Median Time Before (organ) Failure

    34. Re:Old news by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      Odd. I'd seen it used that way but trivial googles don't find it.

      It was used as "LD50 for male aging is 75 years".

      And you are correct.

      What I meant was the median age at death-- which is hard to find. For the U.S. it maybe 77.5 to 80, but that may be an average that includes infant mortality.

      The probable number of years for a 50 year old male is 28.49 so that's in the range.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    35. Re:Old news by GargamelSpaceman · · Score: 1

      It seems they made mice lacking working telomerase and gave them a drug that fixed the problem. I'd like to see if normal mice given that drug live 10 years.

      --
      ...
  2. Quality, not quantity by BadAnalogyGuy · · Score: 2, Insightful

    For the most part, most of us live long enough. What is necessary is a substantial increase in the quality of our lives, not an increase in the length of it. If this treatment can return youthful vigor to our cells, that is something amazing. So far we've been relegated to using HGH or steroids or exercise and diet to control our aging process. However, the actual cellular aging progresses unhindered.

    A treatment that does not require diet and exercise modifications is sorely needed.

    1. Re:Quality, not quantity by siddesu · · Score: 2, Insightful

      [quote]A treatment that does not require diet and exercise modifications is sorely needed.[/quote]

      Absolutely. Because quality of life is measured by how much you can eat in front of your computer without gaining weight.

    2. Re:Quality, not quantity by BadAnalogyGuy · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Or, you know, strengthen blood vessel walls so strokes don't occur, restore pulmonary tissue so the heart stays strong, improve muscle tone and joints so mobility is retained, stimulate bone growth to protect against osteoporosis.

      Yeah, it's all about sitting in front of your computer eating what you want all day long...

    3. Re:Quality, not quantity by Nursie · · Score: 1

      For the most part, most of us live long enough. What is necessary is a substantial increase in the quality of our lives, not an increase in the length of it.

      Speak for yourself. I want to live forever.

      If a therapy can be designed that not only regenerates the major body organs but stimulates the brain as well (and it sounds like this does) then holy, moley - yes please!

      Obviously there are big problems with applying this to humans (cancer), but still.

    4. Re:Quality, not quantity by Kokuyo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You're an engineer, aren't you?

      You go: Well, a lot of our problems come from lack of excercise and bad diet. So... we need to tweak our bodies to no longer be troubled by that.

      Personally, I'd prefer to see a social and economic reevaluation, that just plain leaves you more time and resources to live a more healthy life in the first place.

      Being able to take the time to do these things the usual way would mean a proportional decrease in stress on top of the healthier living.

      So in short: Instead of fixing what is broken, make it so it doesn't break in the first place.

    5. Re:Quality, not quantity by BadAnalogyGuy · · Score: 1

      That does not solve the problem of aging damage. Even preventatives like exercise have only limited effect on telomere length.

    6. Re:Quality, not quantity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Aww, come on, we read your first post already. What you want is to stuff yourself on the coach and not get your body to punish you for it.

      Just stick to the bad analogies, ok?

    7. Re:Quality, not quantity by soundguy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Speak for yourself. I want to live forever.

      You're a 20-something, aren't you? Come back and say that in another half a century. Life isn't all that "must-have" after a bunch of decades, even if you're in perfect health. The main problem is that after numerous years of life-experience, you start realizing what unbelievable sacks of shit most people truly are. If YOU get to live forever, you're going to have to deal with THEM forever too.

      --
      Nothing worthwhile ever happens before noon
    8. Re:Quality, not quantity by Khyber · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Personally I'd love for my knee and femur to regenerate (if possible.) You obviously have no idea what it feels like to know when bad weather is coming, nor what it feels like to be part-terminator.

      When I have to travel, FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUU

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    9. Re:Quality, not quantity by Khyber · · Score: 1

      "Personally, I'd prefer to see a social and economic reevaluation, that just plain leaves you more time and resources to live a more healthy life in the first place."

      Given how prevalent human laziness and greed seems to be on this planet, I think more time and more resources would only lead to an exacerbation of the problem.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    10. Re:Quality, not quantity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Takes one to know one?

      If you look for certain characteristics in people, you will see them disproportionally to other qualities.

    11. Re:Quality, not quantity by Mathinker · · Score: 1

      > When I have to travel, FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUU

      Please be more specific. Is it unpleasant because of the sensation in your leg, or is it unpleasant because your metallic implants send you directly to the "feel-em-up" line of the TSA?

    12. Re:Quality, not quantity by Krneki · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Speak for yourself. I want to live forever.

      You're a 20-something, aren't you? Come back and say that in another half a century. Life isn't all that "must-have" after a bunch of decades, even if you're in perfect health. The main problem is that after numerous years of life-experience, you start realizing what unbelievable sacks of shit most people truly are. If YOU get to live forever, you're going to have to deal with THEM forever too.

      You die when you stop enjoying life.

      The more I love life, the more beautiful people I meet.

      I'm sorry that you lost the love for living.

      --
      Love many, trust a few, do harm to none.
    13. Re:Quality, not quantity by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      And I want new coronary arteries. I had my first heart attack at age 28, had quintuple bypass surgery at age 33, and have just now, aged 42, had a third heart attack and a mere 7 stents installed. But I can't predict the weather! :)

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    14. Re:Quality, not quantity by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1

      Speak for yourself. I want to live forever.

      You're a 20-something, aren't you? Come back and say that in another half a century. Life isn't all that "must-have" after a bunch of decades, even if you're in perfect health. The main problem is that after numerous years of life-experience, you start realizing what unbelievable sacks of shit most people truly are. If YOU get to live forever, you're going to have to deal with THEM forever too.

      No, I reckon I could find a way to avoid the Other Humans. For a while, anyway. Particularly age tends to teach survival skills. If you can stay in good physical shape at the same time, living in remote areas may be easier.

      See: The grotto of the dancing deer by Clifford Simak.

    15. Re:Quality, not quantity by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      I want to live forever.

            Ahh but you forget trauma and violent death. No one lives forever, even if your body was capable of it. Eventually you will see enough of your friends and loved ones die, and the world will change so much, that you will probably consider suicide.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    16. Re:Quality, not quantity by Dunbal · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Plus imagine what would happen to the population if people started living forever. Living forever means being able to fuck forever. Of course mandatory sterilization would be impossible to implement, and of course the babies would want to live forever too, so we would truly see a population explosion like never before.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    17. Re:Quality, not quantity by freedumb2000 · · Score: 2, Funny

      That's your superpower! Embrace it ;)

    18. Re:Quality, not quantity by zakeria · · Score: 1

      Well said, I for one don't wanna live forever I hope I don't even make it to 80, life is amazing but we die for good reasons and we should die. I bet if everybody alive today had lived for say 300 years already then I bet there would be nobody that had not committed a heinous crime such as murder rape whatever it be, you would eventually become evil and thats something I could not live with or even want to sit around waiting to happen and yes it would eventually happen at some point may you want to believe that or not.

    19. Re:Quality, not quantity by ifiwereasculptor · · Score: 1

      You die when you stop enjoying life.

      Most of us are still alive, actually, and being so pernicious as to infect others with our blaséness.

    20. Re:Quality, not quantity by __aatirs3925 · · Score: 1

      I would assume it's an annoying pain in their joint. Same thing happens to me to my left knee, left elbow, left wrist, and left shoulder. I really did some damage :(

    21. Re:Quality, not quantity by tagno25 · · Score: 1

      But we would tera-form Mars, Venus, and the moon, create colonies in space, and send deep space shuttles out to possibly habitable worlds.

    22. Re:Quality, not quantity by Nursie · · Score: 1

      Still sounds preferable to me.

      There may be widespread societal effects from that sort of thing, but on a personal level I'd love it.

    23. Re:Quality, not quantity by Kokuyo · · Score: 1

      You sure? After all, a lot of this so called laziness can stem from not being challenged enough, being unhappy with ones profession or work environment. In turn, lack of resources would be what makes you remain in that position. A vicious circle.

      There'll always be lazy people, of course, but I do believe only a small percentage of those we see behaving like that actually do it because that's what they like to do.

      On the other hand, if a week of work just powers you out completely, from whence would you take the energy to look after yourself?

    24. Re:Quality, not quantity by c0lo · · Score: 1

      The main problem is that after numerous years of life-experience, you start realizing what unbelievable sacks of shit most people truly are. If YOU get to live forever, you're going to have to deal with THEM forever too.

      If I'd know I'm to live forever, I might not get desperate and try to deal with all the sacks of shit in this world: you know, if you don't need to compromise (like: life is too short and you still want a home by the time your 35) then you might decide to just not compromise... what's the rush?

      --
      Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
    25. Re:Quality, not quantity by Kokuyo · · Score: 1

      Why is aging in and of itself a problem?

      This quest for immortality seems a bit ironic to me. Isn't it about getting more quality out of life? Now these scientist propose lengthening our lifespan. To what ends? If your life sucks as it is (to whatever degree), why lengthen it?

      What I'm proposing is making what we've got more enjoyable so there'll be a SENSE in lengthening it.

      Think about it in terms of making code. Biology-wise, we're still on 386 level. What these scientists propose is inventing the 486 and then Pentiums and so on.

      What I propose is making the code more efficient, so we get more out of it RIGHT NOW. Don't we all suffer from wasteful and inefficient code, even though we have Core i7 machines now?

    26. Re:Quality, not quantity by c0lo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Plus imagine what would happen to the population if people started living forever. Living forever means being able to fuck forever. Of course mandatory sterilization would be impossible to implement, and of course the babies would want to live forever too, so we would truly see a population explosion like never before.

      Assuming you know you are to live forever, what's the rush in breading children? At least until the Earth runs out of latex, you can keep fucking.

      --
      Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
    27. Re:Quality, not quantity by Culture20 · · Score: 3, Funny

      Living forever is the province of Lord British and the Avatar's Companions, and has been so for thousands of years. There is no reason to think ordinary folk would get the treatment.

    28. Re:Quality, not quantity by CrackedButter · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm hitting 30. My ambition to live forever is stronger now than it was when I was 15. All the shit given to me over the years hasn't had an impact. You sound like you want to die because it might become depressing. The simplest answer would be to move away and live in a different part of the world for 50 years. Imagine the opportunity to do that and really start life anew?

    29. Re:Quality, not quantity by kulnor · · Score: 1

      Earth can sustain a few billion more, then obviously you'll need to expand to other moons/planets as any good sci-fi classic would teach you. The chance of self-destruction by one idiot with unlimited power however increases so rapidly lately that this will likely be a non-issue.

    30. Re:Quality, not quantity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If you're that disgusted with life after thirty-, forty-, fifty, sixty-something years it has nothing to do with your age. Many people live that long and longer and find something to love.

      Maybe you need a hobby.

    31. Re:Quality, not quantity by drinkypoo · · Score: 4, Funny

      Assuming you know you are to live forever, what's the rush in breading children?

      Well, if you want to live forever, that makes a lot of sense. Grilled is healthier than fried.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    32. Re:Quality, not quantity by kulnor · · Score: 1

      The other issue you'll have to deal with is inequality. Who gets access to treatment? The one who don't may not be too happy about it. Already today, if you are born in the US, your have a decent chance to live until 75.5. This is #34 on the list (and wil likely go down thanks to obesity and other health issues) but still twice as long as the one at the bottom. How would you feel if I you would know that in most countries, people live to an average of 140 years? I think I would like to move there... What if this gap gets much larger....

    33. Re:Quality, not quantity by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      That's a value of "forever" which most people can live with, unless they get killed. The ultimate lifespan is "as long as I want". The big deal here is the apparent reversal of the physical aging process. Still, we can cure just about anything... in mice.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    34. Re:Quality, not quantity by Dekker3D · · Score: 1

      Your whole left arm, eh? Don't you know that sort of thing makes you go blind too? Sheesh.

    35. Re:Quality, not quantity by slackbheep · · Score: 1

      So you believe age drives us to evil? That's... pretty dark. Didn't have a good relationship with grandma? :X

    36. Re:Quality, not quantity by c0lo · · Score: 1

      Assuming you know you are to live forever, what's the rush in breading children?

      Well, if you want to live forever, that makes a lot of sense. Grilled is healthier than fried.

      What??? Ah, I see...

      Mod parent +Insightful, failed to look at the issue from this angle!!!

      --
      Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
    37. Re:Quality, not quantity by Bengie · · Score: 1

      Last I checked, we're consuming resources faster then we're replenishing them. Even if we went back to an extremely efficient hunter/gatherer life style and give up on cities and technology, we still wouldn't have enough land to support our current population.

      We've already hit a point were we can't go back because our current population needs industrialized food production to maintain itself, but at the same time, we're consuming hundreds of cubic kilometers of specific nitrogen rich minerals each year for fertilizer just to maintain our food supply. It takes millions of years to replace these supplies and we're consuming them at rates that only gives us a couple of centuries.

    38. Re:Quality, not quantity by blahplusplus · · Score: 1

      "Personally, I'd prefer to see a social and economic reevaluation,"

      When that happens americans scream communism or socialism as they were brainwashed to.

      Truth is whenever that happens anywhere else america gets involved and tries to install puppets or dictators. Corporations love their cheap slave labor and america is corporately ruled.

      See Coca cola killings.

      http://killercoke.org/

    39. Re:Quality, not quantity by Bengie · · Score: 1

      If I remember correctly, only a century or two ago, the average person only worked about 2 hours per day. Also, the USA is one of the most over-worked countries and produces less per capita then some of the "lazier" countries that have 1-3 months of mandatory paid vaca(depending on which you look at).

    40. Re:Quality, not quantity by denzacar · · Score: 1

      If your life sucks as it is (to whatever degree), why lengthen it?

      A - Because it doesn't.
      B - Because there is a chance that it will suck less in the time to come.
      C - Because life is all about quantity not quality. Just like death. 50 years in prison beats 5 years being a dead hero in the casket of highest quality.

      What I propose is making the code more efficient, so we get more out of it RIGHT NOW.

      What you are SUPPOSING is that there is some universal 100% efficient code.
      News flash. There isn't. In fact, that's the beauty of it. The more inefficient it gets - the richer it gets.

      You know... just like the code.
      Games today sure as hell take up more than 48k, but holy shit have you seen some of those graphics and heard some of those sounds and felt some of that feedback? We had none of those back in the ZX days.
      Not to mention that you can play them with no controllers on huge fucking screens with dozens of friends from all around the world.

      Hooray for inefficiency!

      --
      Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
    41. Re:Quality, not quantity by c6gunner · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      But I can't predict the weather! :)

      That's ok, he probably can't either. It's called confirmation bias.

    42. Re:Quality, not quantity by RsG · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If YOU get to live forever, you're going to have to deal with THEM forever too.

      Fair trade off, as far as I'm concerned. After all, we're all "THEM" from somebody else's point of view, right?

      Besides, "they" aren't individual people, "they" are other people. Douchebags come in all ages, all groups and all eras. If you and your least favourite person both lived without ageing, would your life be improved by their death? No. You'd find someone else to take their place.

      Learning to live with other human beings you dislike is a skill. I've met people who never learned it in the first place. I certainly didn't have it a 15. I was much better at it by 25. Perhaps I'll be able to tolerate anyone at 250. Assuming the human lifespan gets that long before I die of old age (unlikely, but there's always hope).

      --
      Erotic is when you use a feather. Exotic is when you use the whole chicken.
    43. Re:Quality, not quantity by Totenglocke · · Score: 1

      Speak for yourself. I want to live forever.

      You're a 20-something, aren't you? Come back and say that in another half a century. Life isn't all that "must-have" after a bunch of decades, even if you're in perfect health. The main problem is that after numerous years of life-experience, you start realizing what unbelievable sacks of shit most people truly are. If YOU get to live forever, you're going to have to deal with THEM forever too.

      Yes, but living forever also means that you get thousands of years of books to read, technological improvements to witness, hell if you use your time wisely, you might be one of the ones creating those improvements (if you can't get several PhD's over the course of 10,000 years, then you have some serious procrastination issues). I'm well aware people suck - I don't want to live for thousands of years for people, I want to live for art and science and knowledge.

      --
      "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
    44. Re:Quality, not quantity by Totenglocke · · Score: 1

      He said "problem of aging damage". There's a big difference living to be 100 and spending the last 10-15 years of your life mostly immobile and just sitting around doing nothing and being in much better physical shape so that you can keep living your life the same way in your 90's as you do today. People already live pretty long with modern medicine, the issue we have now is staying younger longer to get enjoyment out of that extended lifespan.

      --
      "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
    45. Re:Quality, not quantity by Tom · · Score: 1

      Most people only worry about the biological part of living very long. But not only our bodies, but our minds too are built with a limited lifespan. Very few people ever come to terms with everything they've been through. The more common standard is that the scars of your experiences remain, and accumulate.

      Unless we start working on that problem, too, we will soon have a collection of very long-lived psychic wrecks around.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    46. Re:Quality, not quantity by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      I disagree. Most of what we regard as 'evil' is simply short-term thinking. The longer that people live, the more things will affect them personally. It's much easier to pursue short-term policies when you'll get the benefits and your descendants will get to suffer than when you're guaranteeing your own suffering.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    47. Re:Quality, not quantity by Kjella · · Score: 1

      Who are these people that you have to deal so much with? Seriously. Pretty much every older person I know seem to enjoy their life as long as they have their health. Then their bodies start to ache, their minds start to fog up and the prospects for the future are more of the same or worse. Old friends they've known for many years start dying off, they can't drive no more, they can't walk that far and end up and become very closed off and dependent on others.

      None of that needs to be true if age becomes only another candle on the cake. And if all that is still too much to deal with, waiting around to die of old age must be the worst way of committing suicide. Either you want to live and there's better ways of living or you want to die and there's better ways of dying. Old age is something you go through only for lack of alternatives.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    48. Re:Quality, not quantity by zakeria · · Score: 1

      lol, no what I'm saying is it can't be avoided forever!!

    49. Re:Quality, not quantity by zakeria · · Score: 1

      well I'm hitting 40, and the very thought of rebooting my live "yet again" makes me want to die right now!!!

    50. Re:Quality, not quantity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're a 20-something, aren't you? Come back and say that in another half a century. Life isn't all that "must-have" after a bunch of decades, even if you're in perfect health.

      I'd prefer having the option to live long enough to come to that realization. Isn't the mid to late 70s the median age of death in most developed nations?

    51. Re:Quality, not quantity by chill · · Score: 1

      Okay, THAT is funny. :-)

      --
      Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
    52. Re:Quality, not quantity by Amorymeltzer · · Score: 3, Funny

      You die when you stop enjoying Apple.
      The more I love porn, the more beautiful people I imagine.
      I'm sorry that you lost the copyright infringement lawsuit.

      FTFY, GivesMeHope is thatta way ->
      This place is for disaffected geeks trying to feel superior.

      --
      I live in constant fear of the Coming of the Red Spiders.
    53. Re:Quality, not quantity by RedBear · · Score: 1

      You're a 20-something, aren't you? Come back and say that in another half a century. Life isn't all that "must-have" after a bunch of decades, even if you're in perfect health. The main problem is that after numerous years of life-experience, you start realizing what unbelievable sacks of shit most people truly are. If YOU get to live forever, you're going to have to deal with THEM forever too.

      In a world of immortals such a sad state of affairs couldn't last very long. Inevitably, the nasty people in the world will be eliminated one way or another. Either they will learn over time to not be nasty people anymore, or someone will most assuredly get tired of them and kill each and every one of them. There are only so many times you can step on any person's toes before they will snap. If everyone were capable of living long healthy lives for many decades on end, everyone would eventually come to realize that putting up with nasty people is not worth it in the grand scheme of things. Gradually, the world of immortals will end up containing only two types of people: Those who are nice by nature and those who may not be nice by nature but who have learned to at least be polite at all times to avoid making enemies.

      Those who don't have the gumption to stand up to the nasty people of the world and either force them to change or eliminate them will most assuredly die out rapidly. The rest of us, no matter how pacifistic we may start out, will eventually become the type of people who will not put up with allowing other people to make our lives unnecessarily miserable. Eventually every single individual, after they've lived long enough and seen enough pointless bullshit behavior, will come to the conclusion that failing to behave nicely toward others in any way is completely unacceptable, and nastiness from others will simply cease to be tolerated. After that, life should be pretty nice.

      The much, MUCH bigger problem than what to do with another century or two of healthy life is what to do to stop everyone from having so many babies. If true immortality were actually found, most of the breeding population of the world would immediately have to be sterilized or we would end up depleting the resources of the Earth within a generation or two. Instead of the current growth rate of half a billion or so per year, the world's population would double, then triple and quadruple in rapid succession. If you think we have population problems today, just wait until most people live to be 250 years old.

      The only solution is, of course, expansion into space. Immortality, or even a moderate lengthening of human life, will make the emigration of the human race from the Earth an absolute necessity. Heinlein's Diaspora, here we come!

    54. Re:Quality, not quantity by GaryOlson · · Score: 1

      I was thinking more along the lines of....
      If you let them dry out, the breading doesn't stick; and then you don't get that satisfying crunch after deep frying.

      --
      Every mans' island needs an ocean; choose your ocean carefully.
    55. Re:Quality, not quantity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A lot of girls secretly get pregnant on purpose in order to save a failing relationship, or even cement one that is working. Immortality will not fix that.

    56. Re:Quality, not quantity by TiberiusMonkey · · Score: 1

      I'm 33 and I know full well I want to live forever, I've not even come close to doing all the things I want to do and I never will. There isn't much I wouldn't do to be given a life span that never ends, or even doubles what I will likely have (bar eating babies livers and kitten paws of course). You're right though, we are just massive sacks of crap, it honestly bothers me that we can't all just get the fuck along and work our crap out. If we'd woken up to ourselves after WW2 I have no doubt by now we'd be living on Mars, sending all our rubbish into the sun for the cost of a modern bus ticket and if this topic is anything to go by, living till we're 150. *Disclaimer, I'm probably exaggerating.

    57. Re:Quality, not quantity by Chatsubo · · Score: 1

      As far as I can see you couldn't have one without the other, if you return youthful vigor to your body that implies at least a partial extension of life span.

      --
      > no, yes, maybe (tagging beta)
    58. Re:Quality, not quantity by c0lo · · Score: 1

      A lot of girls secretly get pregnant on purpose in order to save a failing relationship, or even cement one that is working. Immortality will not fix that.

      If they get pregnant to fix something, assuming the immortality, chances are they'll have an eternity to regret.

      --
      Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
    59. Re:Quality, not quantity by RossumsChild · · Score: 1

      "The main problem is that after numerous years of life-experience, you start realizing what unbelievable sacks of shit most people truly are. If YOU get to live forever, you're going to have to deal with THEM forever too."

      No offense, but it sounds like you need better friends. I'm a 20-something, but I've had the remarkable good fortune to carefully select a social circle of good people, and the results are fantastic. You should try it. There are good people out there, raise yourself to their level, then just interact with the lousy people as little as possible. Problem solved.

      (Not advocating immortality, just saying your opinion sounds more like most of the high-school kids I know who are forced to spend the majority of their time around people they dislike than someone who has the freedom to make choices in who they associate with).

    60. Re:Quality, not quantity by Psmylie · · Score: 1

      A month and a half away from my 40th birthday, I have to say... I don't want to live forever, but I want to live a lot longer than my naturally allotted time on earth. So many new, exciting and interesting things are happening, and continue to happen.

      There will always be something on the horizon that will catch my interest and that I want to see happen. As long as I can still feel joy and excitement, as long as I still have people I care about and who care about me, I want to live.

      And who doesn't want to meet their great-great-great-great grandkids?

      --

      psmylie's dictionary: Godzillion (noun) Any number large enough to destroy Tokyo

    61. Re:Quality, not quantity by Dunbal · · Score: 2, Funny

      STOP! Or I will Hnnnnnnnnnnnngggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhh!

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    62. Re:Quality, not quantity by tmosley · · Score: 1

      You feel free to die then.

      If enough people take your route, the path to becoming an immortal god-emperor remains open to those of us with the desire for such a path.

    63. Re:Quality, not quantity by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      we're consuming resources faster then we're replenishing them.

            The law of conservation of matter is against you there. No resources are actually "consumed". The problem is one of distribution. The more people there are, the less steel, aluminum, gold, corn, etc there is per head. THAT is the problem. But everything used can be recycled, given enough energy. We can't create new elements out of thin air, however.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    64. Re:Quality, not quantity by bodan · · Score: 1

      Now these scientist propose lengthening our lifespan. To what ends? If your life sucks as it is (to whatever degree), why lengthen it?

      If your life sucks too much to be worth living, why aren’t you killing yourself?

      If your life nice enough to be worth living, why would you want it to end?

      --
      "I think I am a fallen star. I should wish on myself."
    65. Re:Quality, not quantity by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      Who gets access to treatment?

            Oh that's easy. Me, of course.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    66. Re:Quality, not quantity by russotto · · Score: 1

      Living forever is the province of Lord British and the Avatar's Companions, and has been so for thousands of years. There is no reason to think ordinary folk would get the treatment.

      Fortunately, much of slashdot is included in that former category. Except you bastards who kept using the Skull of Mondain.

    67. Re:Quality, not quantity by Sky+Cry · · Score: 1

      Everything we mortals do is done in a hurry. We want to quickly earn a lot of money while we're young, because we feel the pressure of time. Later we won't be as bright and we'll have to rely on the earned experience, instead of the ability to learn and adapt fast. We also need to earn extra for the time when we're too old to work.

      But what would happen if there was no pressure of time? Would we still try to have children earlier, because later we might not be able to? Would we still prioritize early earned money, because we have a limited productive age? Or would we simply start enjoying every moment of life?

      You try to imaging how would it be like to live a life of an immortal, but you don't realize that the world would change fundamentally. Yes, you will be stuck with "them", but "they" will change too.

    68. Re:Quality, not quantity by ultranova · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Absolutely. Because quality of life is measured by how much you can eat in front of your computer without gaining weight.

      Since most people nowadays spend their days that way out of necessity... yes. Quality of life is increased by having your body tolerate its normal usage. It lowers your quality of life that you have to spend several hours a week running in circles and lifting weights just to keep your muscle mass from disappearing and being replaced by useless fat tissue.

      I suppose that this might violate some people's ideal of having to earn everything with sweat and blood, but hey: they're free to go jog in a snowstorm while I sit in front of my computer and eat potato chips.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    69. Re:Quality, not quantity by ultranova · · Score: 1

      Plus imagine what would happen to the population if people started living forever.

      People aren't going to live forever, even if you get this rejuvenation thing working. I assure you that sooner or later the odds will beat you.

      Of course mandatory sterilization would be impossible to implement, and of course the babies would want to live forever too, so we would truly see a population explosion like never before.

      We aren't seeing any population explosion in Western countries, despite people here living longer than ever before (or at least did a few years ago, before global capitalism got out of control).

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    70. Re:Quality, not quantity by ultranova · · Score: 1

      We can't create new elements out of thin air, however.

      In the case of nitrogen-based fertilizer you can create it out of thin air, actually :).

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    71. Re:Quality, not quantity by Tajarix · · Score: 3, Insightful

      A beautiful sentiment, but naïve. A lot of these "I want to live forever" statements lack wisdom which usually comes with aging, at some point.

      It's about time. Time is the most valuable currency we have. We have a finite amount of it. It helps define us and give each moment meaning.

      Hypothetical immortality (think Tolkien's elves) would remove all value in time.

      Can you imagine a world where people no longer cared about time any longer? They no longer cared about change? I don't think we've met a true conservative until we've met someone who is a thousand years old.

      Those who say that life is beautiful and people are wonderful--well yes, the glass is half full. This is so because it's also half empty. If you take away our problems (a key one being mortality), then what is left is not a wonderful, indefinite life. It's simply existing. Forever. Not good. Not bad. Just existing. When you've done everything there is to do, and time has no meaning, you just are.

      Sounds like hell, to me.

      There must be change, and there must be uncertainty.

    72. Re:Quality, not quantity by FauxPasIII · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Maybe. I'm only 32, but I would definitely take the live-forever serum if it was offered to me at this point. I'm already having to snip lower-priority things off my life goals list just due to lack of time. Maybe after I'm fluent in all spoken and written languages, fully understand current mathematics and number theory, fully grok current physics, have an encyclopedic knowledge of world history, have mastered cooking, dancing, martial arts, race driving, race flying, have built a computer by hand and written a POSIX-compatible operating system in its native assembly language, have built a car by hand and raced it, have visited every culture in the world and learned their customs well enough to interact freely with them... by the time I've done all those things I have a feeling I'll have thought of a list twice as long of things yet to do, but that sounds like at least three or four hundred years I'll need before I even get through the obvious stuff, and that's if I don't spend a large amount of time just relaxing with my family (which I will).

      You seriously couldn't think of any fulfilling ways to spend a couple thousand years?

      --
      25% Funny, 25% Insightful, 25% Informative, 25% Troll
    73. Re:Quality, not quantity by Daniel+Phillips · · Score: 1

      For the most part, most of us live long enough...

      A fine troll indeed. Most of us will miss you when you die.

      --
      Have you got your LWN subscription yet?
    74. Re:Quality, not quantity by CrackedButter · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't think of it as rebooting, just taking on another chapter.

    75. Re:Quality, not quantity by ultranova · · Score: 1

      Instead of the current growth rate of half a billion or so per year, the world's population would double, then triple and quadruple in rapid succession. If you think we have population problems today, just wait until most people live to be 250 years old.

      Really? Because if I can expect to live to 250 years old, I'd put off getting any children at least for the first 100 years or so, just to get financially established. The only reason people get children as young as they do nowadays is because it takes 20 years to bring them up. Every time the average lifespan has grown, the age of giving birth has risen as well.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    76. Re:Quality, not quantity by Krneki · · Score: 1

      Then I guess you are afraid of hell / paradise too?*

      *The question is valid only if you are religious.

      And why do you imply there won't be any change? The world is spinning and is never the same again.
      The beauty of life is the ever changing effect, you never know what tomorrow brings.

      I suspect the people afraid to live forever can't see those changes or accept them, living in a static environment that kills them from the inside.

      --
      Love many, trust a few, do harm to none.
    77. Re:Quality, not quantity by ElizabethGreene · · Score: 1

      You'll catch a lot of flack for wanting to live a very very long time. Ignore it. There are others out there too.

      You might be interested in the immortality institute and the Methuselah project. Links gratuitously provided...
      http://www.imminst.org/
      http://www.mprize.org/

      Finally, if the current pace of scientific development isn't quite fast enough:
      http://www.cryonics.org/

      In my humble opinion, dying is severely overrated and should be put off for a rainy day in the far far future.

    78. Re:Quality, not quantity by Rolgar · · Score: 1

      Yes, but women have a limited number of eggs. A woman will still run out of eggs and be infertile after reaching age 50 (approximately). Unless there is an increase in the number of children born per women, there won't be a significant increase in population due to birth rate.

    79. Re:Quality, not quantity by NiteShaed · · Score: 1, Insightful

      That seems like a failure of imagination on your part. I'm about the same age, and see only limitless possibilities if I could "reboot" now. Imagine going for a shot, and waking up to celebrate your biological 20th birthday tomorrow instead of 40th. It'd be amazing! I could choose to start something new, and see my "whole life" stretching ahead of me again. Tired of what I'm doing now? Okay, time to try law school, or medicine. Hell, if I was physically reset, maybe I'd give being a cop or a fire-fighter a try (can't usually start those jobs after 35 or so). Knowing all the things I know at my age now, coupled with physical youth? Maybe acting, or music or....well, anything.

      Yeah, gimme that treatment, I'd be ready to live my life "yet again" in a heartbeat.

      --
      Some bring out the best in others, some the worst. Some bring out far more.
    80. Re:Quality, not quantity by metamatic · · Score: 1

      Life isn't all that "must-have" after a bunch of decades, even if you're in perfect health.

      Sorry you feel that way. I'm over 40, and even if the world becomes a postapocalyptic wasteland, I'd like to be able to stay around and see it happen. Of course, I reserve the right to terminate myself before the zombie hordes start devouring my flesh.

      --
      GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
    81. Re:Quality, not quantity by pearl298 · · Score: 1

      Speak for yourself. I want to live forever.

      You're a 20-something, aren't you?

      Well I am 66 and have about 500 years of interesting stuff that I still want to do!

      Of course I am one of those dull people who stays married for 40 years and sails around the world with my wife at age 47 ...

    82. Re:Quality, not quantity by Courageous · · Score: 1

      You are making the erroneous assumption that age-related ennui--which is to say, the lack of lust for life you are feeling right now--is not a symptom of aging.

      This is a mistake.

      C//

    83. Re:Quality, not quantity by HeckRuler · · Score: 1

      By the time you get done with half that list, you'll have forgotten everything from the start of the list.

    84. Re:Quality, not quantity by BrokenHalo · · Score: 1

      But I can't predict the weather! :)

      Don't worry, neither can the Western Australian Meteorological Office. But I suspect their success rate would be vastly improved by the installation of a few windows.

    85. Re:Quality, not quantity by Courageous · · Score: 1

      You go: Well, a lot of our problems come from lack of excercise and bad diet. So... we need to tweak our bodies to no longer be troubled by that.

      Personally, I'd prefer to see a social and economic reevaluation, that just plain leaves you more time and resources to live a more healthy life in the first place.

      You seem to be suggesting that one has to pick between the two. The natural youthful state of the body is that it both needs exercise, but also responds to that exercise much more quickly (and painlessly!) than it does when one is older. Putting the body into a youthful state will not remove the need for exercise. Although if someone is the type to dream up the perfect medical treatment, that lets them enjoy all the benefits of exercise without the exercise itself, because I guess they think that swimming, skiing, mountaineering and the like aren't fun--well who are we to lobby against them? Let them have their dreams.

      Let's be real, though. Hours of drudgery on an exercise bike and so forth--this is just drudgery. So you have to acknowledge a little of what they are saying even while, perhaps, they may be missing a bit of yours.

      C//

    86. Re:Quality, not quantity by DrgnDancer · · Score: 1

      How many people would be willing to risk their unending lives to perform these great feats? We'd still be able to die, we wouldn't be immortal, just ageless. Not having many ageless mortals around to ask, it's hard to say, but based on most fiction regarding them it's easy to believe they would fear death far more than even normal mortals.

      --
      I don't need a million points of light, just two points of multi-mode fiber and a 10 Gig-E router.
    87. Re:Quality, not quantity by HeckRuler · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Personally, I'd prefer to see a social and economic reevaluation, [one] that just plain leaves you more time and resources to live a more healthy life in the first place.

      A "social and economic reevaluation"? That's a revolution. Usually it involves a lot of warfare and death. But feel free to reevaluate your own life, nobody is stopping you there.

      And as far as revolutions go, getting everyone more time or more resources is feasible, but getting everyone BOTH is kind of an impossibility. Who pays for it? I mean, you're essentially arguing that the socio-economic system we currently have should change so that you have to work less and get paid more. That's just a daydream.

      Maybe if you made some suggestions about what exactly would change.

    88. Re:Quality, not quantity by Surt · · Score: 1

      I think there are two fairly consequential issues here:

      1. Most of us get not nearly enough time to do all the things we'd like to do in our lives. So any biology based extension with a good quality of life would be very welcome.
      2. Any biology based immortality is really short term, not true immortality. You might make it to 10^27 years, but you'd have to be extraordinarily lucky. And somewhere in that range luck will be unable to save you from the proton decay.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    89. Re:Quality, not quantity by BrokenHalo · · Score: 1

      Those who say that life is beautiful and people are wonderful--well yes, the glass is half full.

      Just twice as big as it needs to be.

      I can't think of anything more tedious or stupid than being immortal. In an already overpopulated world, the last thing we need is a few generations of people who refuse to accept a finite lifespan. Far better that we should be here for a good time rather than a long one.

    90. Re:Quality, not quantity by Legion303 · · Score: 1

      All you people saying "you'll be sick of living after too much of it, mark my words dagnabbit!" seem to be missing the point. If you get sick of your extended lifespan, you can always walk off a cliff.

    91. Re:Quality, not quantity by Surt · · Score: 1

      But then the galaxy is completely packed with human meat after about 20K years. And remember, you're still alive, and now you're thinking about eating your (still living, obviously) descendants to continue to live.

      Immortality that will last tens of thousands of years is really scary. If you can't stay ahead of the population wavefront, you eventually get eaten.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    92. Re:Quality, not quantity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ZING! I agree. Let the sad sacks die in a few years. I want to love longer. I don't see a difference between space enthusiasts who want to see more space and me who wants see more time. I'm a time enthusiast.

    93. Re:Quality, not quantity by Surt · · Score: 1

      The rush is that if you don't have the children, someone else will. The genes of those who populate will outstrip those who don't. And when resources run out after the galaxy is fully populated, they will turn inward and eat you.

      Living forever in a universe of finite resources is a really, really scary prospect.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    94. Re:Quality, not quantity by Surt · · Score: 1

      But how does that help? They still had the children. And actually, what they'll learn is that they got to enjoy the relationship longer, the children eventually grew up and they didn't have to deal with them anymore, so really, all in all a viable strategy. As long as you can find an immortal man who will still fall for it.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    95. Re:Quality, not quantity by BrokenHalo · · Score: 1

      But we would tera-form Mars, Venus, and the moon...

      Hmmm. Mars has already lost most of its atmosphere, Venus has a seriously advanced case of runaway global warming, while there is no chance of making any kind of atmosphere stick to the moon at all. Good thinking.

    96. Re:Quality, not quantity by DrgnDancer · · Score: 1

      No, the increase comes from the failure of the death rate. Populations growths is (Babies) - (Dead People) = (Population Growth). Even if there's no increase in (Babies), if there's a huge decrease in (Dead People) then (Population Growth) will rise. It's not *quite* as bad as it sounds, the population growth numbers will rise slightly over time (very old people are unlikely to be helped by this treatment enough to substantially increase their life spans, the younger you are when you start, the more likely it will help), and likely peek in fifty years or so (when most of us who are young and healthy now would like have started to die). We'd have some time to deal with the repercussions, but a slow down in breeding would almost certainly be required (arguably it already is, even without this kind of tech). Also, assuming this technology slows, but doesn't completely stop the aging process (which seems likely) the death rate would catch back up eventually, but there would be a lag.

      --
      I don't need a million points of light, just two points of multi-mode fiber and a 10 Gig-E router.
    97. Re:Quality, not quantity by FauxPasIII · · Score: 3, Insightful

      By the time you get done with half that list, you'll have forgotten everything from the start of the list.

      Then I'd better take a detour through neurophysiology research. =)

      So much to do, so much to do.

      --
      25% Funny, 25% Insightful, 25% Informative, 25% Troll
    98. Re:Quality, not quantity by witherby · · Score: 1

      Living forever isn't all it's cracked up to be. I've had the conversation with a couple of people (so my results are purely anecdotal and should be interpreted as such), and it's my experience that people don't really think about just how long *forever* is. Imagine living for just 150 years. Pretty much everyone you've known is going to be dead. You'll have the opportunity to meet new people, sure, but if you know that all the people you'll ever meet will be lost to you at some point (when they die), what's the incentive to live forever?

      Even assuming that you could do some good in the world, which isn't given at all, eventually the Sun will expand and all life on Earth will die. Then the planet might get struck by some huge meteor and you'd be floating out in the vastness of space until *time itself* came to an end. Doesn't sound that great to me.

      I'd much rather take the limited amount of time that I have to try to improve my life and the lives of those people that I love. I know that every atom in my body was once a part of a star, and I like the idea that eventually I'll be returned to that state. Just makes everyday life much more enjoyable, and meaningful, to embrace your finitude.

    99. Re:Quality, not quantity by ElizabethGreene · · Score: 1

      Last I checked, we're consuming resources faster then we're replenishing them. Even if we went back to an extremely efficient hunter/gatherer life style and give up on cities and technology, we still wouldn't have enough land to support our current population.

      This assertion doesn't pass a sniff test.

      First, a hunter gatherer lifestyle is not an efficient way to gather food. Massive amounts of energy are expended in searching for small returns.

      Second, the land surface area of the earth is over 14 trillion hectares. Dividing that by 7 billion people gives you 2 hectares per person. If you keep the sustainable parts of modern agriculture you can pull between 2 and 6 million calories per hectare without any dead dinosaur inputs. At 750 thousand calories per person/year, you could feed the earth on 875 million to 2.4 billion hectares. In concrete terms, that is a land mass between the size of India and China.

      So I'll counter your unsupported assertion with one of my own.

      Food shortages and hunger are actually political problems disguised as resource allocation problems.

    100. Re:Quality, not quantity by wierd_w · · Score: 1

      Since "Tolkien Elves" were brought up, there is always the problem that they experienced too:

      They lived forever, but their forests/animal friends did not. As such, they were forced to endure watching everything else they cared about die around them, again and again. That is why their paradise was the "undying lands", where EVERYTHING was immortal.

      As pointed out by another poster, that too would be very boring after awhile, because if nothing dies, nothing new takes its place.

      Then there is the ever-present problem of increasing the reproductive lifespan of humans, while simultaneously increasing the total lifespan of humans, coupled with the natural sexdrive of humans.

      Without SERIOUSLY reducing the fertility of humans to compensate, we would end up with an unsustainable population of unaging people in just a few centuries. Personally, I consider this a "very bad thing", unless we somehow manage to make a star-trek replicator, and master fusion energy and leave the planet sci-fi style in very short order. Given the difficulties of these problems, the lack of interest in the corporate world for free, and unlimited resources for everyone, and the insane costs to try to develop such things, occam's razor suggests that it wouldnt happen until AFTER the problem I mention rears its ugly head, Much like measures to curtail AGW have only recently started to get serious, now that there is an obvious problem.

      Without serious population controls, natural scarcities for food and other vital resources would impose the limit the "bad" way. Means either you accept having a reduced sex-drive from the change in your biology, or you accept that you will eventually live in a dystopia that performs forced sterilizations as an emergency damage control measure.

      Then, you also have the issues that others pointed out-- the longer you live, the less you really WANT to live, because you get more and more cynical. Look for suicide booths to become popular.

      There are consequences for everything, and given these consequences based on how our societal systems are currently progressing, I would say that immortal humans would be a very very bad thing.

      Living a little longer might be OK, if the reproductive age didnt change-- (EG, you still have female menopause at the same time-- the cougars just live longer, and stay perky.) but it too would cause issues like the baby boomers are now, when they finally DO get too old to cut the mustard anymore.

      Really, the world would do better to have SHORTER human lifespans. Really.

    101. Re:Quality, not quantity by DrgnDancer · · Score: 1

      I'm not much behind you, but to me the occasional reboot makes it interesting. That's the biggest potential pitfall here IMHO. A person who lives to 300 years old is much more likely to stagnate. Working to avoid that stagnation would become an important part of life. We'd get to where we *want* reboots every few decades (or at least to where we *should*, we might have to convince people). Robert Jordan did an interesting thing on this front in one of his cultures... The magic wielders in his Wheel of Time world live an extended time (400-450 years old for most, 250-300 for Aes Sedai who've inadvertently shortened their span artificially). One culture (the Sea Folk) deal with these long lives by tying the life of a magic wielder (a Windfinder) to the life of a normal mortal captain. The Windfinder follows the captain's career, rising (or declining in bad situations) through the ranks with her until the captain dies. Then the Windfinder is assigned to a new captain, at the bottom of the totem pole.

      In the event that we could dramatically lengthen our lives it seems like that systems which encourage period "reboots" might not just be kinda fun, but almost necessary.

      --
      I don't need a million points of light, just two points of multi-mode fiber and a 10 Gig-E router.
    102. Re:Quality, not quantity by Krneki · · Score: 1

      World population is not a problem. Developed countries are right now at 1% population growth.

      Undeveloped countries on the other hand are the problem, but we will resolve this issue with the TV and football.

      Considering the pace of technological evolution and the fact we use ~15% of world surface I'm very positive about our future.

      Besides, if you are so negative now, what will you think when in 10 years rudimentary AI will cover 90% of our work needs?

      --
      Love many, trust a few, do harm to none.
    103. Re:Quality, not quantity by Belial6 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      We are already at the time when over population is a problem. While I'm not convinced on AGW, if we take it as existing, it is a problem that is directly caused by human over population. The world is still increasing in population, and it already is having problems with the amount that we have. Your nightmare longevity problem is here now.

      Of course, suicide booths are not a bad idea, or a bad thing. What a wonderful world it would be if everybody got to live as long as they want, and just as long as they want. Your idea that the old would be a bigger problem if they pushed off their old age for a dozen more decades is silly. The same people would at worst need the same care. So, no change there. At best, life is so long that it isn't considered evil to commit suicide, and your hypothetical suicide machines means that you would live a happy healthy life for as long as you want, and then you would NEVER be a burden on others.

      Just as I am happier to live in a time and place where there is plenty of food for everyone, I would love to live in a time and place where there is plenty of youth for everyone. I like being able to eat until I am done, then get up from the table satisfied, even if there is still food that could be eaten. It would be awesome if life were the same way.

    104. Re:Quality, not quantity by toastar · · Score: 1

      LoL, Population Controls...

      What is this communist china? I live in a country where people try to ban contraceptives and bomb abortion clinics?
      You really think anybody would consider this?

      The problem is everybody wants everyone else to stop reproducing first.

    105. Re:Quality, not quantity by wierd_w · · Score: 1

      Unless the AI is what makes and spends the money, our society would never accept that outcome.

      In the event that the AIs ARE what make and spend the money, then humans would be obsolete as far as the status-quo financial system is concerned. Humans would be "unneeded"

      Now, if we were to consider that the AIs are intellectual property of some corporation (Highly probable), and that private use is through an EULA type license (Highly probable), then you are in the position where humans have their AI constructs do their labor for them, but must pay a percentage to the parent company that developed the AI as part of the licensing agreement. In this way, the AI just becomes like paying taxes, and is the ultimate form of vendor lockin.

      Naturally, I would dislike such a solution.

      Population growthrate in industrial nations is at 1% because of abortion and contraception, but these are not 100% effective solutions at controlling the rate of population growth. Even at 1% growth, if the theoretical age of the individuals that make up that population is "Infinity years old", the probability of a population disaster happening without some form of culling being imposed STILL approaches 1, it just happens more slowly.

      A similar phenomenon can be seen with hubble's constant, and the rate of universe expansion. The rate of expansion over a short distance is infinitesimally small. However, since space doesn't just "Disappear", the overall rate of expansion compounds over distance measured; After a critical threshold of approx 13billion light years, the rate of spacetime expansion exceeds the speed of light.

      Likewise, the rate of human propagation in developed nations might be small, but when you eliminate mortality from age you end up with the undesirable situation where new people are made, and old ones are NOT removed; the result is geometrical expansion over time, with guaranteed overpopulation eventually, unless some other form of population control is instituted. This is especially true if the reproductive health of humans is conserved over that time frame (EG, no menopause, and women are having babies at 150 years old.)

      Thus, forced sterilizations, and suicide booths.

    106. Re:Quality, not quantity by Zerth · · Score: 1

      Hrm. Time no longer being a constraint.

      We could personally observe macro-evolution/speciation? More realistically, people might stop caring about this quarter's returns and think a little longer term.

      Projects that don't get started or finished, because nobody can follow them all the way through, will be accomplished by somebody with an 80 year attention span. Projects that require large amounts of multidisciplinary knowledge will also be more possible when somebody can live long enough to say "Hi, I've got a PhD in damn near everything".

      And if the lack of that constraint makes life less worth living, then we won't have quite as much an overpopulation problem, people will off themselves out of sadness or boredom.

      The real downside is that copyright terms will be even more ridiculous.

    107. Re:Quality, not quantity by wierd_w · · Score: 1

      I am single, almost 30, and have no desire of any kind to reproduce in any fashion. I do not desire a sexual partner, and do not foresee that I ever will.

      I feel my desire for other people to consider the long term effects of their procreation is not hypocritical, therefor.

    108. Re:Quality, not quantity by Nursie · · Score: 1

      "Imagine living for just 150 years. Pretty much everyone you've known is going to be dead. You'll have the opportunity to meet new people, sure, but if you know that all the people you'll ever meet will be lost to you at some point (when they die), what's the incentive to live forever?"

      To continue to experience things.

      It would be horribly sad if all my friends died over that time period. Whether that's necessary in a world where life extension is possible I'm not sure, if I can live forever then surely others can. I'm very unlikely to be the only one that wanted to.

      I already know that all the people I meet will be lost to me at some point. Life is transitory, people move away, move on, do other things, change themselves and their surrounds. What 'life' is about for me is enjoying the time I'm with friends, family, colleagues, acquaintances or even complete strangers. Not try to cling onto them.

      I just moved across the world, away from almost everyone I know, for the experience. I suspect I'll do it again. It's a regret that I don't have time to spend a decade on every continent as I'm already too old. Even if we discount Antarctica.

      Continue living, continue experiencing... forever. Sign me up.

    109. Re:Quality, not quantity by after.fallout.34t98e · · Score: 1

      A beautiful sentiment, but naïve. A lot of these "I want to live forever" statements lack wisdom which usually comes with aging, at some point.

      It's about time. Time is the most valuable currency we have. We have a finite amount of it. It helps define us and give each moment meaning.

      Hypothetical immortality (think Tolkien's elves) would remove all value in time.

      Time has value because it allows energy to do work. This property of time would still exist regardless of how long we live. It is fundamental to the nature of the universe and cannot be removed without removing the rest of the universe.

      We do not value it because we currently have an upper bound on the amount of potential work which may be done in our lifetimes.

      Can you imagine a world where people no longer cared about time any longer? They no longer cared about change? I don't think we've met a true conservative until we've met someone who is a thousand years old.

      Actually, I can. In fact there have been books on the idea conceived thousands of years ago. They came up with this notion that no matter what you do with the first part of your life, you wind up in one of two places. You then proceed to stay in this place forever.

      I am ok with dying because I absolutely believe there is no possibility of such a fate and that instead when I die, I will cease to exist and that the unchanging nature of that non-existence doesn't matter. I would rather prolong this death as long as possible but I admit that I ultimately do not have free will and that my concept of existence (and free will) is merely a quirky side affect of the universe tending towards maximum entropy (and as such, I will die when I die and any thought I have to avoid it is a result of time allowing energy to equalize).

      If I were to postulate that any religion involving such fates were true, I want to live forever out of the possibility that I would wind up in either place. The mere idea of being aware of an eternal unchanging existence is horrifying.

    110. Re:Quality, not quantity by Nursie · · Score: 1

      I totally did not expect that!

      Weird reaction.

      I suppose I don't understand why anyone wouldn't want to keep going. Maybe they don't enjoy life as much as I do. Maybe it's just the way different people are wired.
      Very, very odd.

      I shall read those links at some point. Question though - is this at the stage where it's basically wishful thinking and quackery or are things being done in a scientific manner as far as you can see? New fields, especially ones offering such possibilities, are often prone to that sort of thing.

    111. Re:Quality, not quantity by Krneki · · Score: 1

      See, so many possibilities so many different outcomes, I want to see them all, experience them all.

      P.S: In that 1% you didn't factor the immigration.
      P.S.S: my country population growth rate is 0.25%
      http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=slovenia+population+growth+rate

      --
      Love many, trust a few, do harm to none.
    112. Re:Quality, not quantity by wierd_w · · Score: 1

      I would recommend that you read this online novel.

      http://www.kuro5hin.org/prime-intellect/

    113. Re:Quality, not quantity by wierd_w · · Score: 1

      The point was any population growth, coupled with immortality, will ultimately result a 100% probability of overpopulation 'eventually.'

      You are just quibbling over how quickly it would happen.

      Granted, this discounts other kinds of mortality; (car crashes, cancer, suicide booths, etc..) Unless these kinds of deaths are equal to or greater than total population growthrate, then the probability of the population disaster STILL approaches 1.

      As that happens, if we were to bring in your utopian ideal of having AIs do everything for us, we will have the very very unfortunate situation where human life would be "cheap"-- I'd expect war to be very common.

    114. Re:Quality, not quantity by seebs · · Score: 1

      I'd view exercise as fixing what's broken, and a body that can stay healthy without it as being made so it doesn't break in the first place.

      Is losing 20 years to dying young that much worse than losing 20 years to running and lifting weights instead of doing things that involve some kind of intellectual stimulation?

      --
      My blog: http://www.seebs.net/log/ --- My iPhone/iPad app: http://www.seebs.net/seebsfrac/
    115. Re:Quality, not quantity by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      A treatment that does not require diet and exercise modifications is sorely needed.

      Absolutely. Because quality of life is measured by how much you can eat in front of your computer without gaining weight.

      There are also medical situations in which diet and exercise are insufficient. Those premature aging diseases that make kids look 80 are not going to be solved by diet and exercise. Some signs of aging can be mitigated by staying healthy, but no amount of multivitamins or jogging is going to make my hair stay on my head or keep you from getting crows feet.

      Also, any additional working knowledge of these processes and manipulating them are probably not going to be trivial. Say some researcher finds a way to induce telomerase activity in skin, making younger looking skin, and along the way, stumbles upon a way of effectively preventing the cancer you'd expect that might cause. That breakthrough might turn out to dramatically decrease your chances of getting skin cancer. Maybe Oil of Olay finds a way to do that super cheap. Overnight, everyone looks ten years younger, has dramatically reduced risk of skin cancer, the trade deficit is reversed

      So that's not really as trivial as you make it out to be.

    116. Re:Quality, not quantity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A beautiful sentiment, but naïve. A lot of these "I want to live forever" statements lack wisdom which usually comes with aging, at some point. It's about time. Time is the most valuable currency we have. We have a finite amount of it. It helps define us and give each moment meaning. Hypothetical immortality (think Tolkien's elves) would remove all value in time. Can you imagine a world where people no longer cared about time any longer? They no longer cared about change? I don't think we've met a true conservative until we've met someone who is a thousand years old. Those who say that life is beautiful and people are wonderful--well yes, the glass is half full. This is so because it's also half empty. If you take away our problems (a key one being mortality), then what is left is not a wonderful, indefinite life. It's simply existing. Forever. Not good. Not bad. Just existing. When you've done everything there is to do, and time has no meaning, you just are. Sounds like hell, to me. There must be change, and there must be uncertainty.

      Man, pull the trigger so the rest of us can have your Soylent Green, mate! I often wonder how people of your ilk make it through the day. I'd suggest suicide vice continuing rants against people that actually embrace life.

    117. Re:Quality, not quantity by lgw · · Score: 1

      But we would tera-form Mars, Venus, and the moon, create colonies in space, and send deep space shuttles out to possibly habitable worlds.

      If the population grows at any fixed % rate, it will end in a crash as our population outstrips its resources, assuming the speed of light is a limit. If you can't exceed the speed of light, the maximum volume you can colonize grows only polynomially, so if populaiton grows exponentially there will eventually be a crash. It's one of the better explanations I've heard for Fermi's Paradox.

      However, here on Earth, population is expected to stop growing soon (peaking at about 10B), so unbounded exponential growth may not be a good model to begin with.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    118. Re:Quality, not quantity by tknd · · Score: 1

      You die when you stop enjoying life.

      The grandparent post may have talked about anger and frustration but I've gone through enough by now (I'm still in my 20's) to realize life isn't all happiness and glory. There's an awful lot of sorrow and pain in life. Even though that exists, most people can overcome it the first few times. But it is the repetitive nature of the up and downs in life that beats a person into submission. Some may tolerate more than others but everyone has their limit eventually.

      I have no doubt there are elderly people in their 80s or older that still enjoy life. But there are a good number of people past 40 and even 30 that are already tired of the burden partially because of the cards they were dealt at birth. Some of these people are still fighting with all their heart and the slightest hope for improvement in quality of life, but I've met enough to know there are some people that die trying or get their years cut short. It isn't a fair game for everyone, so blanket statements like "you die when you stop enjoying life" are certainly naive. If that were true, some people were born dead I guess.

    119. Re:Quality, not quantity by wierd_w · · Score: 1

      In theory, it is a good idea to hold-- However, granting immortality to humans as they currently are, means extending that same thing to the ideas that humans hold, and feed to their children; Specifically, religious precepts and mores.

      Pretty much all major world religions consider self-termination to be "evil"- as such, I would expect there to be very strong social outcry over it. (much like the outcry before Jack Kevorkian got put in jail. Building a suicide booth is no different ideologically than administering cyanide to old people that want to die.)

      It becomes an issue not of what YOU want, or what you feel is best for yourself and your family-- but what your family feels is best for themselves; People HATE the idea of suicide, because it means people WILLINGLY leaving them behind-- people that claimed to have loved them. As such, I would expect the "Abandonment" issue to be highly persistent, even in an immortal population demographic. As such, the suicide booths would be viewed distastefully, rather than as the source of liberty.

      That might change after several thousand years of human "existence", but it would be a long-standing blemish on human sentimentality before then.

    120. Re:Quality, not quantity by asc99c · · Score: 1

      I've just got to 30 and would still very much like to live forever. My wife doesn't want to live forever, and doesn't even seem particularly keen on living any longer than a 'natural' lifespan. The reason being that the people you know would all die - even if you can cure aging, you would likely see friends and relatives die as a result of accidents.

      You don't get to make new relatives. Even if you go on making new friends, it would be odd to live in a world where your parents, children, brothers and sisters had died.

    121. Re:Quality, not quantity by sjames · · Score: 1

      For some reason, the mortification of the flesh meme keeps resurfacing. Some are content to just mortify their own flesh as a personal spiritual practice. Others feel the need to demand that others practice it as well.

    122. Re:Quality, not quantity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most people only worry about the biological part of living very long. But not only our bodies, but our minds too are built with a limited lifespan. Very few people ever come to terms with everything they've been through. The more common standard is that the scars of your experiences remain, and accumulate.

      Unless we start working on that problem, too, we will soon have a collection of very long-lived psychic wrecks around.

      I'll take his immortality shot. No wrecks here!

    123. Re:Quality, not quantity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, you wouldn't. You're using age as an excuse to not do all those things you "want" to do. If you had youth, you'd find another excuse.

    124. Re:Quality, not quantity by ElizabethGreene · · Score: 1

      People's reactions are all over the map when you look at death and life extension. Socially, we are being conditioned to emphasize quality of life over duration. I disagree with that philosophy, but that is a conversation for another day.

      The Methuselah project is strongly anti-quack. The chap running the show has had to work very hard to open the conversation. Said another way, he has spent the last 10 years dragging "real science" kicking and screaming into recognizing that increasing a human lifespan is a worthwhile task. You couldn't tell it from a photograph, but the chap is quite smart.

      The immortality institute I haven't gotten a real feel for. I'm familiar with them from their support of various Cryonics groups.

      I am registered to be a future resident at the Cryonics institute. The arguments for and against the future viability of Cryonics are inconclusive, but the alternative (decomposition) was enough to convince me.

      In the end it really comes down to outlook. I, for one, relish life and will cling to it as long as my bacon-laced arteries will allow.

    125. Re:Quality, not quantity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're an engineer, aren't you?

      You go: Well, a lot of our problems come from lack of excercise and bad diet. So... we need to tweak our bodies to no longer be troubled by that.

      Personally, I'd prefer to see a social and economic reevaluation, that just plain leaves you more time and resources to live a more healthy life in the first place.

      Being able to take the time to do these things the usual way would mean a proportional decrease in stress on top of the healthier living.

      So in short: Instead of fixing what is broken, make it so it doesn't break in the first place.

      Way to generalize. You must be a mathematician.

    126. Re:Quality, not quantity by NiteShaed · · Score: 1

      Nonsense. First of all, I was replying to someone who said they'd rather not have their life to live over again because they were tired of the same old thing. I suggested that if that were the case, you could try something new, which I suspect I would. That doesn't mean that I squandered my youth and made poor choices that I regret now, I'm actually quite happy with what I did and the choices I made. That doesn't mean that I wouldn't like to try anything else though, given the time to do it.

      Now, as for becoming an M.D., or a lawyer, once you pass a certain age, it seems a little pointless to me unless you're seriously driven to do it. Both require a pretty large upfront investment of both time and money. Starting medical school, for instance, could mean what, up to 10 years before you graduate, putting you at around 50. Then you do your residency for a few more years. By the time you acquire a body of experience, you're approaching 60, next thing you know, you're almost to retirement age, as opposed to being in your 30s or early 40s.

      Want to be a cop or a fire-fighter when you're in your 40s? Good luck, most departments have age restrictions for the academy, putting the line somewhere in your 30s. There's also the physical elements, most people are simply nowhere near as physically capable at 40 as they are at 20. Yes, there are exceptions, but that's all they are, exceptions. The same goes for the military, maybe I'd like to try that, whereas when I was in my early twenties the first time around I focused on career instead. I just don't buy the idea of a 40 year old army or marine recruit starting boot-camp.

      Actor? Yep, I can still do that (and on occasion do), but as you age, the roles change. You're not going to play the "young" parts when you're 50. That's not necessarily bad, but it's a hell of a lot easier to be 25 or 30 playing 50 with makeup, than it is to be 50 or 60 and playing a convincing 20 or 30.

      There are plenty of valid reasons why, as people age, they don't tend to change careers or "start over" other than laziness. Yes, sometimes it's motivation, but other times it's just not practical to do considering the cost and effort to enter a career you'll only be able to be in briefly once you've finished the training, or the physical requirements make it impractical after a certain age.

      --
      Some bring out the best in others, some the worst. Some bring out far more.
    127. Re:Quality, not quantity by numbski · · Score: 1
      --

      Karma: Chameleon (mostly due to the fact that you come and go).

    128. Re:Quality, not quantity by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      what's the rush in breading children?

      Most women can't stomach children without breading.

    129. Re:Quality, not quantity by Gilmoure · · Score: 1

      And as more people live longer, will be more difficult for folks to move far, far away from everyone else. Already pissed that someone built a house a quarter mile away from ours. Looks like everyone will need 40 acres, a mule, and a really tall fence.

      --
      I drank what? -- Socrates
    130. Re:Quality, not quantity by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      "Then there is the ever-present problem of increasing the reproductive lifespan of humans, while simultaneously increasing the total lifespan of humans, coupled with the natural sexdrive of humans.

      Without SERIOUSLY reducing the fertility of humans to compensate, we would end up with an unsustainable population of unaging people in just a few centuries. Personally, I consider this a "very bad thing", unless we somehow manage to make a star-trek replicator, and master fusion energy and leave the planet sci-fi style in very short order. Given the difficulties of these problems, the lack of interest in the corporate world for free, and unlimited resources for everyone, and the insane costs to try to develop such things, occam's razor suggests that it wouldnt happen until AFTER the problem I mention rears its ugly head, Much like measures to curtail AGW have only recently started to get serious, now that there is an obvious problem."

      Hey, I'm not saying I want everyone to have immortality and live forever..just mainly ME, and some select friends.

      I kinda wish the vampire model really worked, that way, you can choose who you want to ride eternity out with...

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    131. Re:Quality, not quantity by RegTooLate · · Score: 1

      Only on Slashdot would this be modded insightful instead of funny.

    132. Re:Quality, not quantity by Gilmoure · · Score: 1

      Or folks, with a long path in front of them, may not feel all that compelled to finish things. /had week off for Thanksgiving and didn't accomplish everything on my to-do list around the house

      --
      I drank what? -- Socrates
    133. Re:Quality, not quantity by Gilmoure · · Score: 1

      Good *and* short!

      Just put that crystal in their palms...

      --
      I drank what? -- Socrates
    134. Re:Quality, not quantity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Speak for yourself. I want to live forever.

      You're a 20-something, aren't you? Come back and say that in another half a century. Life isn't all that "must-have" after a bunch of decades, even if you're in perfect health. The main problem is that after numerous years of life-experience, you start realizing what unbelievable sacks of shit most people truly are. If YOU get to live forever, you're going to have to deal with THEM forever too.

      I think you are confusing life with bitterness. Bitterness is not the de facto by-product of living. Thats like getting out of shape and blaming life.

    135. Re:Quality, not quantity by w0mprat · · Score: 1

      Human life span has doubled in a century. Most developed nations are actually experiencing a population crash and as developed nations play catch up in their standard of living they will follow suit. This over population thing you speak of is isolated to the developing (and un-developed) world. In practice as people can expect to live longer and to not need children as a means of support in old age, the birth rate is crashing.

      In fact many nations will have an explosion of retirees very soon, and a ever smaller tax-paying workforce to support them. Infact we really need to do something about age-related disease otherwise we're going to economic hell in a handbasket.

      So yeah without DIY suicide kits, we need another solution.

      I actually think radical life extension is one of the things that will save this planet. For this very reason. It is indirectly a population control method. Crashing birthrate has in practice mitigated the results of doubling life span in a century and now populations are receding.

      I have to concede here there is a link between the standard of living and the number of children people have to - it's not all about lifespan.

      If you knew you would live for 80, 90 or 100 years and remain mobile and lucid right up to the end. Perhaps you'd plan longer term? Perhaps our politicians would be able to see past the next election. Perhaps we'd care about climate change more?

      --
      After logging in slashdot still does not take you back to the page you were on. It's been that way for 20 years.
    136. Re:Quality, not quantity by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but you get a really, really nice sear when you pan-fry if you dry them out first.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    137. Re:Quality, not quantity by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      Crashing birth rates do not indicate that the remaining birth rates are not still too high. We can hope that improved quality of life will solve our overpopulation problem, but do you think that if the whole world lived like the US, that the world could sustain the population?

      I'm not convinced. Of course, I do recognize that whether I am convinced or not, we will find out the answer, so I am hoping that you are correct.

    138. Re:Quality, not quantity by Z1NG · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty sure two hours is way lower than actual. From what I can find it was often 5 hours per day for hunter/gatherers (and maybe less than 1) but has gone up from there. You're right about the US being overworked - at least compared to European countries. I certainly wish I had more vacation time, and fewer hours worked per week. Three months! That would be fantastic.

    139. Re:Quality, not quantity by w0mprat · · Score: 1

      Doubling lifespan in a century has lead to declining population and crashing birthrates in developed nations. Radical life extension would further reduce the need for people to children to support them in old age.

      --
      After logging in slashdot still does not take you back to the page you were on. It's been that way for 20 years.
    140. Re:Quality, not quantity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe if more people lived longer and realized what idiots they were being they wouldn't be such idiots. Maturity takes time.

    141. Re:Quality, not quantity by mldi · · Score: 1

      You seriously couldn't think of any fulfilling ways to spend a couple thousand years?

      This. It's exactly why I've stopped watching so much TV. Takes away that precious time that tick-tocks away that you could be using to do something that's actually on your priority list. It hits you when you stop for a moment and think "OK, I really am going to finish <item C on list> now. I mean, I only started it.... what.... HOLY CRAP THAT WAS 10 YEARS AGO!!?!?!".

      Really makes you feel like you've slept through the last 5-10 years. "What did I really even DO for that time?" only drew a blank, and that was insanely depressing. In fact, a recurring nightmare of mine now is that I wake up, and some 5yr old kid runs up to me and calls me daddy and I have only a very vague idea of who this person is.

      I'll volunteer for the magic drug that doubles my time to learn and do stuff.

      --
      If you aren't suspicious of your government's actions, you aren't doing your job as a responsible citizen.
    142. Re:Quality, not quantity by CubicleView · · Score: 1

      Pure fantasy of course, but I suspect the trivial problems would become even bigger business if we ever did reverse aging. If we all lived to 150, you'd need treatment to correct 150 years of unchecked ear and nose growth, loss of tooth enamel, follicle wear and tear, etc etc.

    143. Re:Quality, not quantity by CubicleView · · Score: 1

      If everyone could live forever then your girlfriend would regret letting you make that list of celebrities you could sleep with "if you got the chance".

    144. Re:Quality, not quantity by CubicleView · · Score: 1

      yeah but since the AIs would be doing the fighting it'd be ok?

    145. Re:Quality, not quantity by hitmark · · Score: 1

      If there is anything that will "fix" the reproduction rate issue it is birth control and providing other female pursuits then homemaking.

      Seriously, the biggest reduction in birth rate comes from females spending longer and longer time on education and jobs (and other topics of "self-realization"). A female human is fertile between 13-14 and somewhere around 40-50. And from around 24 onwards, the chance of complications (including miscarriage) rise.

      And this is the exact time band where education and work takes up most of the daily activity. This then combined with birth control measures, so that one can enjoy sex with a greatly reduced chance of conception, means that the percentage chance of conception over time greatly drops (less time available for sex, and what sex there is gets done using birth control).

      --
      comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
    146. Re:Quality, not quantity by Latinhypercube · · Score: 0

      "then what is left is not a wonderful, indefinite life. It's simply existing. Forever. Not good. Not bad. Just existing." If you are an animal or moron. What if you are Picasso, Tesla or Einstein ? Think about how much more they could have achieved. Expanding the time we have on the Earth and conquering it, is no different than what cars, planes and trains have done to our notion of space.

    147. Re:Quality, not quantity by CubicleView · · Score: 1

      Doubtful, I'm not a thrill seeker but I suspect that after a while Earth would get a bit boring. I'd eventually just snap and join a space program, or since I can live forever start my own one.

    148. Re:Quality, not quantity by CubicleView · · Score: 1

      We could build a green house on the Moon though, and then a big rail gun to shoot lettuce back towards Earth.

    149. Re:Quality, not quantity by Red+Flayer · · Score: 1

      I'm assuming you've read some of John Jeavon's work. He estimates a lower bound of 0.05 hectares per person -- but that assumes plentiful access to clean water.

      Also note that Jeavons assumes access to minerals for replenishment of the soil. This is a huge limiting factor in the long run, even if you compost your urine and feces.

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    150. Re:Quality, not quantity by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      I don't think it's "pure fantasy." I mean, it's been demonstrated in mice, we have every reason to think it will work in humans. Activating dormant genes which are already in your genome doesn't seem like such an insurmountable issue.

      I think you're right that health issues will come up, but there are bigger concerns than noses and teeth, specifically your brain. This study looks at that and finds that telomerase activity helps stop or reverse the decline, but I would imagine activating telomere activity in the brain would be much more problematic than activating it in just the skin

    151. Re:Quality, not quantity by ElizabethGreene · · Score: 1

      Actually no, I haven't read him. That was just a back of the envelope thing. I have more than a passing interest in farming and it bothers me when people describe overpopulation as the cause of food shortages.

    152. Re:Quality, not quantity by XnavxeMiyyep · · Score: 1

      While this may stop aging (assuming it works in this scenario), it won't stop things like car accidents and murders, and probably won't stop things like heart failures, strokes, cancer, starvation, and obesity related deaths. Obviously there will still be a large number of people who would have died of old age who will no longer die, and this will change how a lot of things work (like social security, pensions, and such), but it probably won't cause an explosion in the population, just a higher proportion of tragic deaths.

      It could do very interesting things with the way people live though. If a bunch of people retire at 60 with stable investments and a youthful body, they could do all sorts of things for the next hundred years or so.

      --
      I put the 't' in electrical engineering.
    153. Re:Quality, not quantity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      pretty much, yeah

      -procure

    154. Re:Quality, not quantity by skarphace · · Score: 1

      A lot of these "I want to live forever" statements lack wisdom which usually comes with aging, at some point.

      Please explain to me what exactly aging can teach you. I'd say wisdom comes with experience, not aging. Aging in fact destroys what gives you wisdom(your brain).

      --
      Bullish Machine Tzar
    155. Re:Quality, not quantity by monkyyy · · Score: 1

      meh not really the "work less and get paid more" thing could very easily happen if we stopped looking at short term gain and removed all pointless/replaceable by robots work

      --
      warning pointless sig
    156. Re:Quality, not quantity by Surt · · Score: 1

      It's the second law of thermodynamics that's the killer in the case of our using up resources.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    157. Re:Quality, not quantity by HeckRuler · · Score: 1

      Well, it COULD. But it turns out that a company that installs a $100,000 with 3 engineers to maintain it to replace 100 worker at $10/hr or $2 million/year simply pockets the difference or uses it to undercut their competitor. What have the 100 factory line workers done to deserve a cent? Other then be layed off?

    158. Re:Quality, not quantity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Speak for yourself. I want to live forever.

      You're a 20-something, aren't you? Come back and say that in another half a century.

      I recently asked my 85 year old grandfather whether he would choose to live forever if he could. His answer? "Absolutely", because he enjoys life, enjoys working, still has things he would like to accomplish, and wants to see what amazing ideas other people will continue to come up with.

      It sounds like you've turned yourself into one of the "unbelievable sacks of shit" you're complaining about, so maybe that's why you don't like the eternal life prospect. Personally, I await that possibility eagerly.

    159. Re:Quality, not quantity by uninformedLuddite · · Score: 1

      Takes one to know one?

      Now that was fucking incisive

      --
      The new right fascists are bilingual. They speak English and Bullshit.
    160. Re:Quality, not quantity by Macrat · · Score: 1

      For the most part, most of us live long enough.

      The insanely rich overlords want to see the enslavement of your children and your grand children.

    161. Re:Quality, not quantity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well your definition for quality of life is obviously based on what suits you! If you wanna be a couch potato and play with computers all your life then is fine by me!
      Let me go to gyms and stadiums and meet sexy girls while working out ;)
      Oh in case you forgot you need sex too otherwise your body will reject your penis as useless :D

    162. Re:Quality, not quantity by Synonymous+Homonym · · Score: 1

      You all think of ressources as money.
      Those are not the same.

      For example: There is enough food to feed the world twice over, but people are starving because they cannot afford it.

      The ressources are there, as is unemployment. Apparently money is an inadequate tool for distribution.

      (Captcha: unrest. How apt.)

    163. Re:Quality, not quantity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, but steaming is even healthier for you. Like with lobsters, when they are bright pink all over, they are ready.

    164. Re:Quality, not quantity by Synonymous+Homonym · · Score: 1

      A lot of these "I want to live forever" statements lack wisdom which usually comes with aging, at some point.

      I think you meant "age", not "aging".
      Some people are wise beyond their years, then lose their marbles as they get old.
      And there is Russel's dilemma to contemplate: The more people are stupid, the more they think they are smart.

      It's about time. Time is the most valuable currency we have. We have a finite amount of it. It helps define us and give each moment meaning.

      You must be trolling, because you are wasting your time on slashdot, talking about how every moment is valuable. Personally, I think there is nothing more valuable than a good sleep.

      Hypothetical immortality (think Tolkien's elves) would remove all value in time.

      Would not. Time is always what it is. Take as much as you need.

      Can you imagine a world where people no longer cared about time any longer?

      No. What time is it again?

      They no longer cared about change? I don't think we've met a true conservative until we've met someone who is a thousand years old.

      Not caring about time is not the same thing as not caring about change.
      Things always change. That is life.

      And personally, I wouldn't take anyone too seriously who hasn't lived for at least a quarter millennium.

      Those who say that life is beautiful and people are wonderful

      are not afraid of death?

      When you've done everything there is to do,

      that is when your midlife crisis begins.

      Sounds like hell, to me.

      There is always suicide.

    165. Re:Quality, not quantity by Synonymous+Homonym · · Score: 1

      do you think that if the whole world lived like the US, that the world could sustain the population?

      Never. But if the whole world lived like Europe, it could.
      The standard of living is about the same, using only a sixth of the ressources.
      And the birth rates even lower.

    166. Re:Quality, not quantity by CrackedButter · · Score: 1

      Maybe, as much as Dr Who moans about losing everybody he loves, he still travels and embarks on adventures. I can deal with that.

    167. Re:Quality, not quantity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is not about bad diets or excercise, Its not the kind of obvious wear. Its "wear" on an Intracellular level regarding the age related wear on the body. You can reevaluate all you want, but that won't fix the gradually shorting of the telomeres, which properly plays a role in death by aging.
      Eating well and excercising might help you stay alive longer, and so might what comes out of this research. The two do not exclude each other.

    168. Re:Quality, not quantity by HeckRuler · · Score: 1

      Money isn't a "tool for distribution", it's a financial lubricator that allows anything and everything to have an equivalent cost in cash, as opposed to an equivalent cost in everything else.
      So rather then trading 3 days hunting for 4 loaves of bread, or 15 rabbits for 1 and a half loaves, or 1 goat for 1 days work and two loaves with 13 arrows and a smack on the rear in change, you can have a simple price in cash that everything works with.

      If someone is too poor to afford food, that means they have no resources to afford food. Regardless of a monetary system or a bartering system or whatever else you can think of.
      If you're going to blame something for the poor, blame the economic system that the poor exist under, not the aspect of money.

    169. Re:Quality, not quantity by Have+Brain+Will+Rent · · Score: 1

      You know even if you live forever you might never "fully understand current mathematics" (whatever that actually means) etc. Just because your lifespan increases doesn't mean your cognitive abilities increase too. And I wonder how many people have jobs they would simply refuse to do if they thought it was going to go on indefinitely... right now many people stay in jobs they don't like because they can't afford to change or "retirement" is dangling in front of them and is sufficiently attractive to keep them doing the job.

      --
      The tyrant will always find a pretext for his tyranny - Aesop
    170. Re:Quality, not quantity by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      Europe has weened itself off of oil, and has moved to a completely renewable infrastructure? Wow. That is news to me!

      Could you point me to some resource that shows this, as I might have to reassess some my views if it has.

    171. Re:Quality, not quantity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If someone is too poor to afford food, that means they have no resources to afford food. Regardless of a monetary system or a bartering system or whatever else you can think of.

      I would agree with you if we could easily look at a thing (products, services, etc) and tell exactly how much it's worth. But money don't work that way. The price of everything fluctuates according supply and demand, and no single person has perfect information about the state (and flow) of economy in a given moment, in order to correctly evaluate the value of the things involved in a given transaction.

      So, if you have a lot of capital (which gives you authority over means of production) you can decide whether you want to invest in the production of food or, say, sport cars. Nothing requires you to go one way or the other, since money makes everything equivalent. So, you decide not to invest in food (shortening the food supply and making it more expensive) and use your money to hire workers for your car making (workers who are looking for food, not for money). At a first glance, it looks like a fair deal, but in fact the workers are acting contrary to their self interest.

      In a bartering system, OTOH, you wouldn't have a lot of money. You'd have a lot of whatever you did in the past that made you rich. And if the thing you have is not the same thing most people want, you wouldn't be able to hire them to work in something that only satisfy the wants of a minority (the sport cars). But you could still take the food route, using your resources to make the business viable (in a series of exchanges with people who want the things you have) and paying your workers with part of your production. This way there would be more food in the world, lowering its prices and making it more affordable.

    172. Re:Quality, not quantity by FunkSoulBrother · · Score: 1

      I'm going to postulate that in a world where age reversal science is well implemented, male birth control probably won't be that tough a scientific hurdle to overcome.

    173. Re:Quality, not quantity by NoSig · · Score: 1

      Let's put it differently: there's a bunch of us who want to live until we choose not to. Be that tomorrow or a million years from now.

    174. Re:Quality, not quantity by NoSig · · Score: 1

      China has a one-child policy, I'd be happy to give up having more than one child for immortality. If every pair has only 1 child, that means the next generation will be only half as big, and the one after that a quarter as big and so on. If you do the math, the end population of this process is that there will never be more than double the amount of people there are today. Oh, and of course people will still die, just not from aging. It doesn't have to be any great issue.

    175. Re:Quality, not quantity by NoSig · · Score: 1

      It's all hypothetical to her because there isn't actually an option to not age. It's a whole different ballgame when someone comes up to you and tells you "do you want to take this pill and never age, or do you want to grow increasingly decrepit and infirm of mind until one day not too far in the future you'll die without knowing who you are?" We might even offer to kill her when her natural life is up, except she was in great health until then, but I think that when the time comes, she'll say "not right now, ask me again in a while" and so on. Because there is no such option, the choice is instead "would you like to desperately want something that's impossible?" and then the answer is different. Except, of course, that now with modern science we can make it possible and the sooner people get over this impossibility-trance, the sooner it'll happen.

    176. Re:Quality, not quantity by NoSig · · Score: 1

      My experience is that the things in my past there were difficult to deal with then become less and less important to me as I become better and better equipped to deal with such things. At this point the only real worries I have are about giving my life meaning and things at that level. It's not pondering terrible things in my past or that might happen.

    177. Re:Quality, not quantity by NoSig · · Score: 1

      If extending life is inviting tragedy, why haven't you ended yours yet? No, I'm not advocating that, I'm saying that you'll want to continue living at 80 for exactly the same reasons that you don't kill yourself right now.

    178. Re:Quality, not quantity by NoSig · · Score: 1

      I want to live forever.

      Ahh but you forget trauma and violent death. No one lives forever, even if your body was capable of it. Eventually you will see enough of your friends and loved ones die, and the world will change so much, that you will probably consider suicide.

      I'll take that.

    179. Re:Quality, not quantity by shnull · · Score: 0

      i hope treated subjects turn out to be sterile or we're in for a heap of trouble

      --
      beware he who denies you access to information for in his mind, he already deems himself to be your master (SMAC-ish)
    180. Re:Quality, not quantity by strikethree · · Score: 1

      "If YOU get to live forever, you're going to have to deal with THEM forever too."

      I want to live forever. I see several people giving you flack for implying that not wanting to live forever is sad. Each person has their own desires in life and I am not here to judge yours and I am unsure why others feel the need to judge yours. The reason I am responding is because you kind of a hit a nail that I suspect you were subconsciously trying to hit:

      People need to die in order for change to occur. Think of a world without change: No wheel, no fire, no astronomy, no math, etc. All of the troublemakers would be silenced in order to keep the status quo. One ruler who owns everything and allows other to live at his (yes, his) whim.

      But yeah, you are also right. Some people are assholes and I would rather not be around them.

      strike

      --
      "Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
    181. Re:Quality, not quantity by Red+Flayer · · Score: 1
      You should... lots of enlightening material he's written on subsistence farming on limited space, urban gardening, etc.

      I've seen in a few places a term for the area required to feed a single person referred to as the "Jeavons number".

      I have more than a passing interest in farming and it bothers me when people describe overpopulation as the cause of food shortages.

      Well, to be fair, overpopulation is an issue. We'll never be able to eliminate certain limiting factors to worldwide nutrition like politics, shipping logistics, etc. If you consider those supply-side problems to be realities we cannot overcome, then our only option is to look at the demand side: population.

      I don't personally think population control is the primary key to having an adequate food supply at this point. But keep in mind also that overpopulation feeds into some of the things that destabilize the food supply, such as economic disparity, disease, etc. So I do believe that overpopulation will always be a problem when we don't have the political and economic platforms to support the world population... and the lack of these platforms manifests as food shortages.

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    182. Re:Quality, not quantity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      LMAO.

      In the real world stuff breaks. Your DNA repair enzymes are constantly working to fix broken DNA in your cells. It's probably broken and been repaired several tens of thousands of times while I'm typing this (at least). There are mutations occuring in some of my cells right now. It does not matter how healthily I live, or what I eat, I live in the real world and I'm going to get cancer one day. There is absolutely nothing that can be done to stop this.

      If researchers were ever successful in reversing the aging process in humans you would find older, possibly healthier, people getting cancer at increasingly higher rates (since heart disease and other common causes of death associated with aging would be decreased).

      This is where transhumanists find leverage for their arguments. The only way to truly stop cancer, aging, and cell death is to replace our biological material with man-made substitutes.

    183. Re:Quality, not quantity by zakeria · · Score: 1

      Why would I kill myself? life is amazing!!

      But then again I've learned to appreciate things that most people don't or even can't.. I've spent almost 20 years of my life with 200 square feet not because I have to but because I choose to. Some people can't understand a person like me but I also find it very difficult to understand most people so I say we're even ;)

  3. And then... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...they got giant tumors and died anyway. The end.

    1. Re:And then... by freedumb2000 · · Score: 1

      Now we just need a decent cancer treatment and hello overpopulation!

    2. Re:And then... by davaguco · · Score: 1

      We just need to increase a few anti-cancer genes quantity and/or effects. It's already been done on mice: https://www.cnio.es/es/grupos/plantillas/presentacion.asp?pag=35

      --
      Please google and research "peak oil" a bit. You will discover this crisis is a lot worse than they have told you
    3. Re:And then... by tagno25 · · Score: 1

      Now do both to the mice, then welcome our new super-mice overlords.

    4. Re:And then... by dwinks616 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Possibly not overlords in the "ruling over you" sense, but what would happen if a few mice got out, which never aged or died from cancer? Sure, mice get preyed upon, but if even a few of these mice made it to the wild, you'd see billions and billions of them in a few years. Mouse Armageddon, I think so!

    5. Re:And then... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In a manner of speaking, the world have cancer.

    6. Re:And then... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      i.e. tarzan's manner of speaking. wow i suck

  4. Old news? by thriemus · · Score: 1

    Are you saying /. regenerated an old story into a fresh new one?

    If we can do it with mice and stories then chances are we will have half the worlds population claiming pensions in no time!!

    --
    - Sig
  5. Do not want by AmonTheMetalhead · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Honestly, i hope they do not succeed in making people live forever, there are already 6 billion of us here, and that number will only increase, and there are only so many mouths we can feed & bodies we can clothe, not to mentioning the possibility of this treatment being reserved for the super rich... Let the people die, it's why we were born in the first place.

    1. Re:Do not want by Zapotek · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'd like to thank you on behalf of those of us who want to live forever...making room for the immortals if awfully kind of you.

    2. Re:Do not want by Spy+Handler · · Score: 1

      all of this has already been anticipated. The Harvard people are closing in on a substance called boosterspice. It stops people from aging. Next will come what will be known as birthright lottery. It will control the population number while at the same time breeding lucky people.

      The only downside will be that you will not be allowed to breed unless you are super smart or super athletic or artistic. However this will not be a problem for most slashdotters since we weren't gonna breed anyways.

      Besides, where in your country's constitution is it written that all citizens are guarenteed the right to breed?

    3. Re:Do not want by AmonTheMetalhead · · Score: 0

      Nothing lasts forever, not me, not the planet, not the solar system, and not you. Learn to accept your mortality and start to really live.

    4. Re:Do not want by Ragzouken · · Score: 1

      That's a bit of a circular argument considering you're arguing against the technology to make something last forever...

    5. Re:Do not want by BadAnalogyGuy · · Score: 1

      where in your country's constitution is it written that all citizens are guarenteed the right to breed?

      The 10th Amendment.

    6. Re:Do not want by Zapotek · · Score: 1

      In that case...thank you as well.

    7. Re:Do not want by tzot · · Score: 1

      > there are already 6 billion of us here, and that number will only increase, and there are only so many mouths we can feed & bodies we can clothe

      Sword sales could be dramatically increased, though, accompanied by epic duels in various places around the world.

      --
      I speak England very best
    8. Re:Do not want by AmonTheMetalhead · · Score: 0

      I don't consider this to make people to last forever, but 'unnecessarily long'.

      Look, i love life, and hope to live to be old enough to see people colonize space, but I'm also realistic enough to know that current population growth is heading straight for disaster, we are 'out-breeding' our ability to be able produce enough food, our main energy source is finite (oil), and our climate seems to be going through changes (i don't care if they're man-made or not), putting more people on this rock with drastically increased lifespans don't seem to be sch a bright idea to me.

      Besides, think a bit what it would be like to live forever, it's a nightmare.

    9. Re:Do not want by Ryanrule · · Score: 1

      dont worry, only the rich will be able to live forever.

    10. Re:Do not want by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 1

      The terrible thing about living forever is it takes so damn long to get there.

      Put me in a vat and wake me up every 100 years for 5 years at a time. That's my idea of immortality... Seeing how the world progresses over a millennium.

      Then again, I have few emotional ties to this world, so moving on somewhere / somewhen else wouldn't be much of an issue for me. It probably would for someone with relatives / family.

      --
      Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
    11. Re:Do not want by Polumna · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Article 1, Section 8, Clause 1.

      If there's an immortality tax of "100% of your fertility" you can sign me up. (Though, if impotence and fertility are not fully separated by the IRS, I'll have some thinking to do.) :P

    12. Re:Do not want by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      but I'm also realistic enough to know that current population growth is heading straight for disaster

      Not because of long lives, but because of the stupidity and selfishness of many humans who don't think about the future.

      putting more people on this rock with drastically increased lifespans don't seem to be sch a bright idea to me.

      Perhaps they should be working on a way to reduce the amount of successful births.

      Besides, think a bit what it would be like to live forever, it's a nightmare.

      Except if it wasn't a nightmare.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    13. Re:Do not want by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      there are only so many mouths we can feed & bodies we can clothe

      Three cheers for more skinny naked people

    14. Re:Do not want by AmonTheMetalhead · · Score: 1

      Not because of long lives, but because of the stupidity and selfishness of many humans who don't think about the future.

      So what do you propose? Having some sort of forum to decide who gets to live on & who gets to die?
      Or limit the availability of the drug to the rich? The politicians? The famous?
      Slippery rope....

      Perhaps they should be working on a way to reduce the amount of successful births.

      And how do you plan to do that? Go the China route & limit everyone to 1 child? Or will you be sterilizing people preventively?

      Except if it wasn't a nightmare.

      Imagine not growing old, ever, and then contemplate the fact that you can experience all possible experiences for an infinite number of times, it might take a while, but after some time you'll wish you died (the kicker would be off course if at this point you no longer can), the mind grows numb with boredom.

    15. Re:Do not want by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I read a book titled "Mortal Questions", by a philosophy professor named Thomas Nagel. In one of the chapters, he argued part of living is also dying. So to die is to "complete the totality of your existence."

      In my own experience, my father was old and sick, and he realized that it was time for him to go. Of course, my sister and I didn't want to accept it, but now when we talk about it, we realize how courageous and humble he was.

      When the father of my mother-in-law died, my father-in-law said that it was probably a good thing, because he was old and suffering. He lost a foot in World War II, which caused medical complications throughout his life. My mother-in-law threw a tantrum, and screamed "No one wants to die!"

      It's a difficult question, to ask folks if they accept death. Some would answer, When you gotta go, you gotta go!" Others do want to live forever.

      I was always impressed when I visited the homes of people from Vietnam. They had a little corner in the room with pictures of ancestors that had died, with incense sticks around.

      After our father died, my sister put a lot of work into scanning old slides taken by my father, with his beloved Leica, and burning them on a CD for his grandchildren. If the memory of you is passed on through generations, you do live forever.

      --
      Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
    16. Re:Do not want by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My god that could make for an interesting movie.

    17. Re:Do not want by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Honestly, i hope they do not succeed in making people live forever, there are already 6 billion of us here, and that number will only increase, and there are only so many mouths we can feed & bodies we can clothe, not to mentioning the possibility of this treatment being reserved for the super rich... Let the people die, it's why we were born in the first place.

      I agree, this would be bad for evolution and the human race as a whole.

    18. Re:Do not want by kangsterizer · · Score: 1

      death is the only thing that prevents humans from creating greater damage than they already do. death regulates us.

      it would be nice if our culture was less afraid of death and started to accept it - it's natural and part of everything. not that one should kill himself or suffer, or things like that, but eventually we all do die. in other civilizations death was not something they would fear, and they would live more happily regarding this.

    19. Re:Do not want by kangsterizer · · Score: 1

      Well, I don't wanna make babies, I just wanna fuck. That should work with immortality right?!

    20. Re:Do not want by AmonTheMetalhead · · Score: 1

      death is the only thing that prevents humans from creating greater damage than they already do. death regulates us.

      it would be nice if our culture was less afraid of death and started to accept it - it's natural and part of everything. not that one should kill himself or suffer, or things like that, but eventually we all do die. in other civilizations death was not something they would fear, and they would live more happily regarding this.

      True, i don't want to be mourned when i finally get slammed into the furnace, i want my life to be celebrated with food & booze and music (heck, even get some hookers!), remember people for their life, not their death (unless it was a spectacular death).

    21. Re:Do not want by Ginger+Unicorn · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I don't consider this to make people to last forever, but 'unnecessarily long'.

      What do you consider a necessary duration? And necessary for what? There is no objective purpose to life - people have to ascribe their own subjective meaning - whatever you think is necessary during your own life is you own subjective value judgement and doesn't apply to anyone else.

      we are 'out-breeding' our ability to be able produce enough food ... putting more people on this rock with drastically increased lifespans don't seem to be sch a bright idea to me.

      This is a potential problem, but it presumes that technology won't be able to keep up with demand. There is mounting economic pressure (which makes all the difference) to create a renewable infrastructure now. It's only a matter of time. The more people there are, the greater the pressure. People would be able to work for longer, and would be under less pressure to have kids early. There is a large degree of self-correction to the situation, but it's one of those difficult to predict scenarios, becuase it's such a collosal global game-changing event.

      Besides, think a bit what it would be like to live forever, it's a nightmare.

      I honestly have never understood this attitude. People say it, but never give a reason. Why? You say you love life, so when would that change for you? At what point do you become effectively suicidal? Are you anticipating an afterlife?

      --
      (1.21 gigawatts) / (88 miles per hour) = 30 757 874 newtons
    22. Re:Do not want by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'll thank you for not speaking on my behalf. I'll take an age reversing injection to go please.

    23. Re:Do not want by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nothing lasts forever, not me, not the planet, not the solar system, and not you. Learn to accept your mortality and start to really live.

      Hell, not even cold November rain.

    24. Re:Do not want by Paradise+Pete · · Score: 1

      it would be nice if our culture was less afraid of death and started to accept it - it's natural and part of everything.

      Earthquakes, typhoons, disease, tornados, etc. are natural. And yet, like death, we generally prefer to avoid them. Like it or not we seem to be approaching "Actuarial Escape Velocity," in which life expectancy is extended more rapidly than we age. You and I might not make it, but there's a reasonably good chance that we will be one of the last generations to die of natural causes.

    25. Re:Do not want by soundguy · · Score: 1

      And that's as it should be. What have the poor done for ME lately?

      --
      Nothing worthwhile ever happens before noon
    26. Re:Do not want by Khyber · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "we are 'out-breeding' our ability to be able produce enough food"

      Says you. I actually work in the field, and we have well more than enough technology, raw seed stock, and modified seed stock, to feed this planet fifty times over for the next twenty generations.

      "our main energy source is finite (oil), and our climate seems to be going through changes (i don't care if they're man-made or not),"

      These actually pose real problems that we must work upon.

      "putting more people on this rock with drastically increased lifespans don't seem to be sch a bright idea to me."

      Well, odds are this would only be available to those that could afford it, while the general masses die off. While this leaves a lower population to sustain the planetary population overall, there's also a lower planetary population to handle. Thinking of a worst-case scenario, this would be like giving those hard working and intelligent enough a pass at a super-long life, while eliminating the unwashed masses. That poses another problem, but everything is a problem, and in truth nothing is a total solution.

      "Besides, think a bit what it would be like to live forever, it's a nightmare."

      I've been dead twice. I think I prefer life, TYVM.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    27. Re:Do not want by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd like to thank you on behalf of those of us who want to live forever...

      Sarah Palin... immortal... Is anybody working on a warp drive? Need any help? I want to move to another solar system.

    28. Re:Do not want by EsbenMoseHansen · · Score: 1

      The obvious choice would be to limit the number of offspring to 1/person (or 2 per woman, since that would be easier). Transgressors could be sentenced to a fine + sterilisation or something. The birth deficit could be handled by auction, lottery, or some queue-based scheme.

      --
      Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful.
    29. Re:Do not want by MattSausage · · Score: 1

      ... it might take a while, but after some time you'll wish you died (the kicker would be off course if at this point you no longer can), the mind grows numb with boredom.

      I'm pretty sure this shot doesn't prevent a bullet to the brain from being fatal. Accidental death, suicide, and murder will simply become the way people die instead of withering like an over-ripe grape and simply losing the will to live like people do now. I daresay death from old age is NOT one of the top three ways to die today.

    30. Re:Do not want by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >Besides, think a bit what it would be like to live forever, it's a nightmare.

      In your eyes, maybe.
      I'd rather live forever, suffering any pain imaginable, than think about the most likely outcome of death. (which is probably absolute infinite non-existence, rather than dancing with sky fairies and playing poker with God for the rest of eternity)
      That includes losing people i care about, potentially. Who knows, maybe live long enough to reverse time...

      However, i certainly do agree with your stance on population problems.
      Several solutions are available:
      1) make the immortality drug cause infertility, controlled infertility which could be cured pretty easily when we solve resource problems. Immortality, or children?. (morality score out of 10: 2)
      2) store some DNA of everyone in banks, ban reproduction. (morality score: 5)
      2.1) allow for licence to be purchased to allow for 2, or 4, children. (morality score: 6.5)
      3) educate the public against reproduction and spend more time living life to the fullest. Obviously some will choose to have children, but it will certainly limit people having kids since they have forever to make their minds up. (morality score: 9)
      3.1) disallow children immortality drug unless paid for. (morality score, 3)

      I'd still rather do the vat-thing suggested by L4t3r4lu5 though.

    31. Re:Do not want by AmonTheMetalhead · · Score: 0

      What do you consider a necessary duration? And necessary for what? There is no objective purpose to life - people have to ascribe their own subjective meaning - whatever you think is necessary during your own life is you own subjective value judgement and doesn't apply to anyone else.

      I say, let nature take it's course, there are more important issue's at hand then to postpone the death (whether or not this is permanent or not) of humans isn't one of them.

      This is a potential problem, but it presumes that technology won't be able to keep up with demand. There is mounting economic pressure (which makes all the difference) to create a renewable infrastructure now. It's only a matter of time. The more people there are, the greater the pressure. People would be able to work for longer, and would be under less pressure to have kids early. There is a large degree of self-correction to the situation, but it's one of those difficult to predict scenarios, becuase it's such a collosal global game-changing event.

      An intelligent species would focus on this issue prior to try & cook up an anti-aging drug.

      This fear of death is not healthy, it prevents you to fully enjoy life itself, and that's a shame, because you only get one shot at it.

      I honestly have never understood this attitude. People say it, but never give a reason. Why? You say you love life, so when would that change for you? At what point do you become effectively suicidal? Are you anticipating an afterlife?

      The fact that life is finite is what makes it precious, it's why you should enjoy as much of it as you can, people often say 'i want to live forever', but they fail to contemplate what forever means, forever means you'll have experienced everything life has to offer an infinite number of times, basically, you'll end up bored out of your skull with nothing to look forward to.

    32. Re:Do not want by houghi · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If the memory of you is passed on through generations, you do live forever.

      Uh, sorry, but no, you don't. The memory lives on, not the person. If that is important to those who live on is another matter. But please do not confuse the two.

      Toutankhamon is not alive. insert dead parrot sketch

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    33. Re:Do not want by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As someone with MS in the family I think you're one hell of an insensitive clod.

    34. Re:Do not want by AmonTheMetalhead · · Score: 1

      Most people don't even make it to die of old age, i just hope when i go, that i go fast (or on my own terms).

    35. Re:Do not want by dimeglio · · Score: 1

      death is the only thing that prevents humans from creating greater damage than they already do.

      Regardless, we'd breed more of the same (look at North Korea, Iran or even the US). Death or no death, humans do what humans do. I for one see ageing as unnatural. Growing, yes, but ageing is something we should be able to cure.

      --
      Views expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the author.
    36. Re:Do not want by houghi · · Score: 1

      it would be nice if our culture was less afraid of death and started to accept it

      It would also solve a lot of other problems, like trying to save each and every live at the cost of being able to live.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    37. Re:Do not want by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      The terrible thing about living forever is it takes so damn long to get there.

            You must be young. At my age, the weeks go whooshing past.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    38. Re:Do not want by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      I understand the sentiment, but you didn't really think this through.

      What you are saying is that you want to see a movie of reality as opposed to living through it, you want to see the long term result of where the civilization is going. It's interesting of-course, but you are missing something:

      1. If everybody decided to do the same thing, the reality would be filled with vats full of people, waking up every 100 years, looking at each other and going back to sleep.

      2. You are then an observer, not a participant. Unless you have some unlimited funding, which also is not stolen from you while you are asleep, I doubt anybody would care to wake you up.

      3. That would be pretty pointless of a life, you'd still die, but you'd end up achieving nothing.

    39. Re:Do not want by heathen_01 · · Score: 1

      I say, let nature take it's course, there are more important issue's at hand then to postpone the death (whether or not this is permanent or not) of humans isn't one of them.

      We are constantly modifying natures effects on us. Where will you draw the line.

      For some of us postponing death is not the objective. Quality is the key driver, not quantity.

    40. Re:Do not want by roman_mir · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You are missing a point by the way, an important point.

      People, who are short-lived, do not care about the long term consequences. It's like politicians, who are elected only for a few years and all they try to do is to get reelected, they don't care about actually working that much. Same with non-owners of corporations, who are nevertheless on top of them, like seagull CEOs for example, they come in, make a lot of noise, crap all over the place, collect the severance and leave.

      People who live longer than our very limited life-spans, and people who have more active life-styles by being healthier, would probably end up thinking a bit more long-term, which may end up being good for the population in the long run.

      I do not buy the argument that the natural order of things is GOOD. I think the natural order is actually pretty bad, considering that evolution basically cares about procreation first of all, doesn't care about your quality of life past certain age-point, so it elects the traits in populations that are better suited for the young people, not for those who are maybe 20 years older than 'the young'. But in today's society being 20 years older than 'the young' also has a positive effect (well, with some). They are experienced, they are very knowledgeable and specialized, they are trained, a lot of resources went to their training, they are still useful, but their health is deteriorating and they do become an increasing burden.

      If this particular treatment prolongs the life of people by say 40 years, yet makes them younger in the process, it would end up as a net positive for society, because those resources would be available longer and without the downside of being sicker.

      Basically sign me up (I am almost sure I will never see this treatment, but I would like to.)

    41. Re:Do not want by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't worry, you'll be allowed to die. As for me, I prefer to endure my genes by staying alive and not by having childs.

    42. Re:Do not want by heathen_01 · · Score: 1

      Surely there is enough material there to make a series of movies.

    43. Re:Do not want by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      Having some sort of forum to decide who gets to live on & who gets to die?

      What? No. I meant that people are too uncaring about the future and constantly pump out child after child. If it wasn't for the stupidity of humans, we wouldn't be overpopulated.

      And how do you plan to do that?

      Perhaps some sort of chemical that lessens the chances of successful births.

      Imagine not growing old, ever, and then contemplate the fact that you can experience all possible experiences for an infinite number of times

      Create new experiences, then. Actually, that would take a really, really long time. Probably worth it in the end.

      That said, imagine how dull the afterlife would be if it existed.

      but after some time you'll wish you died

      So kill yourself.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    44. Re:Do not want by AmonTheMetalhead · · Score: 0

      I'm not saying the natural order is good, but i do not consider mankind to be good as well, the fact that there are still people starving to death this very day is proof enough that we as a supposedly intelligent species still have a long way to go.

      if i had more faith in mankind i wouldn't mind scientists doubling our average lifespan, but the way things are going, i'd rather they didn't.

    45. Re:Do not want by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      but i do not consider mankind to be good as well

      - what does that even mean? Is the 'mice-kind' better? Is 'wheat-kind' excellent?

      Is 'frog-kind' the king?

      Good from whose perspective? AFAIC I don't care much about definitions of good and bad here, but I do care about quality of life for myself and people I know at least (and the people I don't know are on a very very distant third there.)

      I don't know what it means for you - 'good', but I do know that I don't particularly care about opinions of others when it comes to quality of life. The better the quality of life I can get the happier I am. Whether it's 'good' or 'bad' for somebody else, that's certainly irrelevant.

    46. Re:Do not want by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've been dead twice. I think I prefer life, TYVM.

      Jesus... is that you?

    47. Re:Do not want by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The rich do live forever compared to the poor in this world anyway through better health, education, access to clean water, etc. This is just a continuation of that process.

    48. Re:Do not want by Zapotek · · Score: 1

      Getting my appendix out would also be a natural part of life that I accept but I'd rather avoid it...
      See my point?

    49. Re:Do not want by VShael · · Score: 1

      If I choose not to have any replacement offspring (and as a slashdot member, that 'choice' may be taken out of my hands anyway) will you let me live forever?

    50. Re:Do not want by Zapotek · · Score: 1

      I'll sum it up in a simple math expression to make it clearer:
      life + death = 1 - 1 = 0
      I'd rather stay in 1...and don't anyone give me one of that you live forever through memories crap.
      From my point of reference the world seizes to exist when I die since there will no more be a point of reference.

    51. Re:Do not want by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What do you consider a necessary duration? And necessary for what? There is no objective purpose to life - people have to ascribe their own subjective meaning - whatever you think is necessary during your own life is you own subjective value judgement and doesn't apply to anyone else.

      As an amateur philosopher, I've gone over the arguments for and against immortality quite a few times.

      My personal take on it would that immortality isn't inherently good or bad. However, I would postulate that *true* immortality, ie to never die and never be capable of dying, would be a truly horrible experience.

      Note that I distinguish between true immortality and false immortality. True immortality would be never able to die, ever. False immortality would be never able to die *except* if you desire death. Or, possibly, if your body takes too much trauma. Highlander immortality, basically.

      Why do I consider true immortality terrible? First, immortality is not equal to omnipotence. Living forever doesn't mean you can't suffer. Imagine having your arms and legs broken for eternity? Or being boiled alive in acid for the rest of your life? Or being buried in a river for years, or perhaps if you have no mouth but you must scream? True immortality in these situations would just involve a living hell. Yes, things might get better, but then again they might not, and the option of death would be desirable.

      Secondly, I'm not sure if you understand this, but eternity is a very, very, *very*, *VERY*, long time. When the stars burn out and all life is gone, when all that lives has finally fallen into the void, You will STILL be around.

      Homo sapiens evolved an estimated 250,000 years ago. Human civilization began, maybe, 12000 years ago. The universe is ~14 billion years old. This is over a million times longer than human civilization or a mere 56000 times longer than homo sapiens have been around. Compared to eternity, however, that is little more than an eyeblink, if that.

      The real terror of immortality isn't the endless pain. It's the endless BOREDOM you'll face. After you cross the universe the 500,000th time and watched every movie, read every book, etc and so on for the nth time, things just get really, really dull. Think about Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged. Look at how mind numbingly dull his life is that he's going around to insult the entire universe in alphabetical order.

      Now, imagine we can't ever figure out time travel. Or holodecks. Or anything which could amuse us for a few millenia before we get bored of it. THIS is the terror of true immortality. You'd better hope you're damned good at meditation and that you're willing to meditate for quadrillions of years because you are definitely going to have that time. Because you're IMMORTAL. And immortality is an impossibly long amount of time.

      Of course, if we stick a little safety switch in there that lets us die should we desire, then hey. That's not so bad.

    52. Re:Do not want by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's plenty of space in space.

    53. Re:Do not want by noidentity · · Score: 1

      Yes, we should first find a way to make people stop wanting to procreate, THEN we can make them live forever. Hmmm, maybe this website is a solution to the first?

    54. Re:Do not want by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If we succeed in making people live forever, we must reduce our fertility rate accordingly.

    55. Re:Do not want by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Only greed is preventing us to feed everyone.

    56. Re:Do not want by vadim_t · · Score: 1

      I think having people who live forever (or a few centuries at least) would do a lot of good for the world. Several reasons:

      People who plan to live 500 years can't afford to fuck up the environment. Normal people may vote for a bad policy because the consequences in 50 years are far away and they'll probably be dead anyway. But if you plan to be around and healthy in 100 years from now, you've got to give long term plans some more thought. The exhaustion of oil would be well within one's expected lifetime.

      Same goes for political decisions. Some things take a long time to take effect. People would be more careful if the consequences of their decisions could still bite them 50 years later.

      It would be valuable for politics. I think we currently forget far too quickly. People who personally remember important events and wars are very valuable.

      It would be incredible for progress and science. Imagine if Einstein was still around. A normal human lifetime is short when doing groundbreaking work.

      Of course there would be plenty worthless people around as well, but there's nothing new there.

      I don't think the downsides would be very big. This would probably involve "periodic maintenance", which would make overpopulation a lot less likely. Some people would get tired of living and decide to stop rejuvenating themselves, some would run out of money. There's always death from accidents. And this would be mostly limited to first world nations, which aren't the ones having a population problem anyway.

    57. Re:Do not want by CrackedButter · · Score: 1

      If you're motivated I don't see this being a problem. Besides we don't know until we can actually live long enough for those side effects you talk about to appear.

    58. Re:Do not want by Charliemopps · · Score: 1

      The solution is simple. To receive the injections you must a. Have never had a natural child of your own. b. agree to be permanently sterilized. Adoption would of course still be an option.

    59. Re:Do not want by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      Ah, the is-ought fallacy. I haven't seen this one here in a while.

      Suffice it to say that "nothing lasts forever" is not an argument for preventing something from lasting forever. Or for preventing something from lasting longer than it used to. Or even for not trying to make something last longer than it used to, if you think you have a way to do that.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    60. Re:Do not want by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      If everyone lives forever barring violent death, a two-baby rule would lead to overpopulation. A better solution would be a queue where a woman is allowed to have a baby after a violent death, then the next woman in line waits like a vulture for the next violent death (or hires someone to randomly kill someone).

    61. Re:Do not want by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      It would be a nightmare for one person to live forever: continually watching all her friends dying every half century or so. But for everyone to live "forever"? I agree with you. We would have to think about the malthusian dilemma, but there's quite a bit of buffer to resolve that.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    62. Re:Do not want by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      There is no objective purpose to life

      You say that, but how do you know? Maybe life is one big video game with a confusing intro and no manual.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    63. Re:Do not want by zippthorne · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Although, if people can live forever, I'm changing my opinion on term limits to "pro" I shudder to imagine what it would be like to have Ted Kennedy as eternal senator.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    64. Re:Do not want by The13thSin · · Score: 1

      I say, let nature take it's course, there are more important issue's at hand then to postpone the death (whether or not this is permanent or not) of humans isn't one of them.

      Ah, so we should stop all research that isn't absolutely necessary for the survival for our species? I mean, why research into medicine / treatment for cancer when so many people are still dying from hunger? Why put money in research for that new super (quantum) computer? Why build telescopes or even take time to look into the origin of the universe and where it's going? Etc. etc.

      An intelligent species would focus on this issue prior to try & cook up an anti-aging drug.

      Probably, but our species' drive to know everything seldom works that way, and I'd even say it's silly to get worked up about it. GP is even saying the bigger the incentive to solve a problem, the more likely it is we actually will. So in a way, the anti-aging drug could very well be the final push we need to get to work on those other problems.

      This fear of death is not healthy, it prevents you to fully enjoy life itself, and that's a shame, because you only get one shot at it.

      I'm not sure how you got from what GP posted, to a fear of death, but I'd even say a little fear of death is healthy and stops you from doing anything stupid. I consider myself to be someone who greatly enjoys life and while having a healthy fear of death stops me from jumping out of airplanes. A fear of death becomes unhealthy when it's constantly on your mind, which certainly isn't the case for me, nor probably GP.

      The fact that life is finite is what makes it precious, it's why you should enjoy as much of it as you can, people often say 'i want to live forever', but they fail to contemplate what forever means, forever means you'll have experienced everything life has to offer an infinite number of times, basically, you'll end up bored out of your skull with nothing to look forward to.

      That's a lot of assumptions based on deductions from untested theory. Which is fine by the way, but I would be hesitant to present it like a fact. There are many things in my life that are considered "infinite" for me (tasty food, beer, porn, etc), which I all still enjoy. Will that be the case once I hit 150? 1000? I don't know, but I wouldn't presume everything turns bland just because it has been experienced (multiple times) before. Not saying you are wrong by the way, but I'm definitely not sure you are right.

      Some would argue that without aging, people finally get control over the one aspect they never could: Death. And maybe it's just fine when people can finally decide for themselves when enough is enough... which brings us back to what an anti-aging drug means: Choice.

      --
      "This should be fun, and by fun, I mean a wholly depressing insight into the cognitive ability of some grown adults."
    65. Re:Do not want by lingon · · Score: 1

      Uhm, you do know that there are fewer birts than deaths in all industrialized western nations (excluding the US) and that all that is keeping the population up is immigration ? Better living conditions and longer lifespan => fewer births. There, problem solved. The chinese only need their one-child-per-family-legislation since they still have a huge part of their population living in poverty.

    66. Re:Do not want by slackbheep · · Score: 1

      OR: Alter the terms of your mortality, allowing exploration and one day understanding of the larger universe around you.

    67. Re:Do not want by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      You already have 'eternal Senators', people like Barney Frank, he has been there for what, 30 years now? What was the point of that house, to have the same people become professionals there or what?

    68. Re:Do not want by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      [...]

      People who live longer than our very limited life-spans, and people who have more active life-styles by being healthier, would probably end up thinking a bit more long-term, which may end up being good for the population in the long run.

      [...]

      The Vorlons would be so proud.

    69. Re:Do not want by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      I agree, this would be bad for evolution and the human race as a whole.

      &$@*% evolution. If evolution and I were at the same party, I'd ignore it all night.

    70. Re:Do not want by blahplusplus · · Score: 1

      "I'd like to thank you on behalf of those of us who want to live forever...making room for the immortals if awfully kind of you."

      Human "Immortals" can still die by guns and bombs. Just because you can regenerate your cells, does not make you immortal. It makes you long lived until something unexpected happens.

    71. Re:Do not want by Ginger+Unicorn · · Score: 1

      sorry, should've said no known objective purpose to life.

      --
      (1.21 gigawatts) / (88 miles per hour) = 30 757 874 newtons
    72. Re:Do not want by Muad'Dave · · Score: 1

      Put me in a vat and wake me up every 100 years for 5 years at a time.

      So try and find "Brigadoon".

      --
      Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
    73. Re:Do not want by EsbenMoseHansen · · Score: 1

      Calculation would show that "forever" is somewhat about 1000 years, so I don't expect a huge balooning effect from this. But yeah, technically you could have the same rule as above and then use the deficit rules for all babies.

      --
      Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful.
    74. Re:Do not want by slackbheep · · Score: 1

      Not all of us specificly seek out experience. Quite a few of us would love to quietly live, absorbing information and learning as we see the world change. On a related note, I think the whole " But if you could live forever, you'd never be able to die and end it" argument is silly. Unless we are immortal by means of wizardry, there will always be a way to end it :P

    75. Re:Do not want by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We'll just move to another system.

    76. Re:Do not want by BananaPeel · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Totally agree it is the lack of long term view that is the problem. It's only when you have enough life experiance that you can see that the world is not black and white. The problem is that people die/retire too young and the new folk merrily repeat the errors of the past.

      Going back to comments in other part of the thread about population; I would argue that population is being held up as some sort of boogie man, the "Do this and the Boogie man will get you" line is just stupid.

      We are already at six million, if we just have business as usual we will all most certainly overpopulate. So regardless of what we do about lifespan "at some point in time" we will have to enact something that holds the population in check or actually decreases it. How big a number we elect for is up for grabs. But at some point it has to stop.

      In the future: We can carry on with our fixed population size, imposed via whatever methods are "acceptable" and we will have options:
      1.Everyone can live short lives and breed.
      2.Everyone can have very long lives with limited breeding (remember natural attrition)
      3.Some mixture of 1 and 2 i.e. half living long lives and half breeding.

      I would suggest options 2 and 3 would give us the best options for maintaining peace and advancing in all areas of our lives.

      If people don't know how to fill their time and don't want to live long that is not a problem for society, provided it has not invested too much in them.

    77. Re:Do not want by BananaPeel · · Score: 1

      Meh make that we are already at 6 billion ma bad

    78. Re:Do not want by slackbheep · · Score: 1

      I respect those who can face death with grace, and hope that when my time comes I am able to be so clear headed. However,I cannot agree that being remembered is anything like living. I believe we as a species would be greatly served just by slowing the loss of knowledge that old age and death bring.

    79. Re:Do not want by Totenglocke · · Score: 1

      In my own experience, my father was old and sick, and he realized that it was time for him to go.

      And you completely missed the point - right now it is a fact that you're going to die, thus when you reach a certain point, you're "ready" because you know it's unavoidable. However, what if you didn't have to die? What if you could naturally live forever, as in Highlander and never get sick or old? You wouldn't feel "ready" to die because you wouldn't be sitting there knowing that you have X number of days to live and that you're rapidly approaching X.

      --
      "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
    80. Re:Do not want by slackbheep · · Score: 1

      Learning to meet the needs of an expanding population is necessary whether or not we succeed in lengthening our lives, We can only hope that a larger population leaves us with more innovators and drive to improve the incredibly wasteful distribution systems we currently use.

    81. Re:Do not want by Totenglocke · · Score: 1

      It worked in Highlander!

      --
      "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
    82. Re:Do not want by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Estate taxes wont matter if the ultra wealthy never die.

    83. Re:Do not want by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      I think that's the point of waking up for 5 years. One or two years is enough to get up to speed on the new society, then you have 3-4 years to actively participate, then you get to see the long-term effects of your contributions (better make sure that they're positive...).

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    84. Re:Do not want by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just because you don't want to live forever doesn't mean that someone who wants the opportunity shouldn't have it.

    85. Re:Do not want by Totenglocke · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Well, there is a noticeable negative correlation between an increase in education and professional achievement in women and the number of children a woman has.

      --
      "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
    86. Re:Do not want by RsG · · Score: 1

      Actually, the whole overpopulation argument against immortality is a red herring. Partly because of the reasons you listed, but also for reasons specific to the nature of clinical immortality. To wit:

      1. Gamete cells don't last forever, especially in women, and the number of fertile women is the key factor in population growth (can't have more babies than there are wombs). Live long enough, and even men start to get age related infertility, as the cells in the testes that produce sperm die off. In a future where telomerase treatments extend life indefinitely, natural childbearing age would not increase, even if all other aspects of ageing (including menopause) were averted. You could solve this with artificial implantation, which would make every pregnancy involving a woman over fifty planned, and likely expensive.

      2. People in the western world have kids in their thirties precisely because they don't feel they'll have the chance later. If we solved the gamete problem I raised in point 1, then the pressure is off. Meaning, the population growth rate might actually drop further. People could, and probably would, wait to have kids a very long time.

      3. Any future solution to ageing that allows the body to regenerate from injury completely (a necessary step for clinical immortality) also, by definition, makes surgical sterilization completely reversible. If anyone could get a vasectomy or tubal ligation with the knowledge that a simple medical treatment would allow them to be fertile again, the main reason not to do so would be history. Accidental pregnancy could be eliminated entirely.

      So really, as counter-intuitive as it sounds, a general purpose anti-ageing treatment would just about be the best way to stop overpopulation from getting any worse.

      --
      Erotic is when you use a feather. Exotic is when you use the whole chicken.
    87. Re:Do not want by nedlohs · · Score: 1

      Good for you. Feel free not to accept any life lengthening treatments (anti-biotics for your next infection, for example).

      The idea of counteracting aging is that you don't reach the "old and suffering" stage, since you don't get old. And everybody else doesn't as well so you don't watch all your friends and family age and die around you.

      It seems very likely (given our current understanding of thermodynamics) that the Universe will effectively "die" at some point so you'll get to "complete the totality of your existance" anyway, likely much sooner than that given the planet, the solar system, and the galaxy will probably have some issues before then.

    88. Re:Do not want by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      No way that's enough. Take it from somebody who merely moves from one country to another now and then, and also from city to city within countries. I travel, I 'immigrate' (I don't consider it to be immigration anymore, just movement, because I don't stick there for too long). 5 years is not enough even to understand what's going on. You only START to fall into society at that mark, takes closer to 10 years to 'integrate' whatever that is.

      It's not going to work, and really, just how many times do you think you'll be able to do this cycle? Also again, you better have a LOT of money somehow, otherwise you are screwed. Also forget about friends or relationships, that out.

    89. Re:Do not want by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you make use of modern medicine? If so, you're not 'letting nature take its course'.

    90. Re:Do not want by careysub · · Score: 1

      I'd like to thank you on behalf of those of us who want to live forever...making room for the immortals if awfully kind of you.

      Note that the average lifespan for an immortal will be about 3000 years just due to the existence of accidental death (assuming accident mortality remains the same), and of course preventing aging doesn't mean other medical disorders will not kill you. Currently we have two classes of processes systematically shortening our lives - aging, and the disease-inducing cumulative effects of life experience (diet, sun and radiation exposure, etc.). There is certainly an interrelationship in which aging aggravates adverse health effects and makes one more susceptible to illness of almost every kind, but eliminating aging does not eliminate all of the other causes of illness and death.

      --
      Starships were meant to fly, Hands up and touch the sky - Nicky Minaj
    91. Re:Do not want by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      death is the only thing that prevents humans from creating greater damage than they already do. death regulates us.

      An assertion without supporting evidence. Humans reproduce. Each one does some damage, then dies and lets the next one do more damage. The damage doesn't matter on a personal level, because the next generation is the one that has to pick up the pieces. In contrast, an immortal would have a vested personal interest in avoiding damaging a world that he intended on living on for (at least) the next few hundred years. Note now how people are far more likely to protest about local pollution that effects them directly than they are about stuff that affects the atmosphere and probably won't have serious negative effects until after they're dead.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    92. Re:Do not want by Ceriel+Nosforit · · Score: 1

      Imagine not growing old, ever, and then contemplate the fact that you can experience all possible experiences for an infinite number of times, it might take a while, but after some time you'll wish you died (the kicker would be off course if at this point you no longer can), the mind grows numb with boredom.

      You have a coin. You see it's heads up and then you turn it and see it's tails up. Now you choose to turn it again, because humans make such unaccountable decisions, and you're either disappointed to see the same side again, or you reflect over the coin with the knowledge of what's on its other side.
      Small children seem to never tire of hearing the same story over and over again, and old people never tire of telling it. Do you think someone has ever learned to juggle on their first try, to never do it again out of boredom?
      It's not THE mind that you're talking about but only your own, and quite honestly I think you're spoiled with easy answers and the instant satisfaction guaranteed by the consumer culture.

      Why would I vote for someone who has only planned to live another 30 years? Do you think it's fair to rape nature with the easy exit plan of death? Where in your hysteric hallucination (a nightmare) did you decide that a body that doesn't age is immune to a violent death?

      You will have your death, you can't avoid that, but you're better off not knowing anything about when it's going to be.

      --
      All rites reversed 2010
    93. Re:Do not want by zakeria · · Score: 1

      yes and again in 100 years nobody will give a shit about you me or anybody else for that matter, I say bring it on I look forward to the long sleep it will be well deserved and delivered when required. I've no desire to live forever the very thought of it depresses me and I really do love live and everything in this universe we understand and don't. It's amazing but it would not be if I knew I had to exist with it forever! Death is the only escape.

    94. Re:Do not want by Amorymeltzer · · Score: 1

      ...current population growth is heading straight for disaster, we are 'out-breeding' our ability to be able produce enough food, our main energy source is finite (oil), and our climate seems to be going through changes...

      All of the problems you listed are problems almost entirely because economics and politics are dictating the way forward, NOT science. We've got plenty of food, and there are plenty of alternative energy sources, but it's not economically profitable yet so it doesn't happen. Electric vehicles are taking off now because it's like, not cool to harm the Earth, man, but there will be poor and starving until someone can figure out a way to get rich by giving away food.

      --
      I live in constant fear of the Coming of the Red Spiders.
    95. Re:Do not want by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uh, so you have some sick, suffering, dying person. Of course they want to die and are "ready".

      Would they be so ready if they were in good health? Outside of suicide, does anyone ever say "well, I'm healthy and feel great, I've had enough, it's my time" and drive their car off a cliff?

    96. Re:Do not want by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Surely there is enough material there to make a series of movies.

      There should have been only one.

    97. Re:Do not want by feepness · · Score: 1

      Then you'll be avoiding any other life-extending medical treatments to get you living past historical lifespans of thirty or so, right?

      Or did you just pick a different arbitrary number and decide that's the right age of death?

    98. Re:Do not want by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1) make the immortality drug cause infertility, controlled infertility which could be cured pretty easily when we solve resource problems. Immortality, or children?. (morality score out of 10: 2)

      A lot of people who have children say that they are their immortality. That being the case, I don't think this would be a bad choice where some people don't want or can't have children, but it would be unfair where the treatment was given to people who already have children while denying children to everyone else. That would need re-thinking (maybe the children can be put into suspended animation and they get them back when they come off the medication).

    99. Re:Do not want by RsG · · Score: 4, Interesting

      In the future: We can carry on with our fixed population size, imposed via whatever methods are "acceptable" and we will have options:

      hate that I have to keep pointing this out, but clinical immortality will not lead to overpopulation, as counter-intuitive as that statement sounds, regardless of whether we limit our reproduction as a matter of public policy.

      I'll break it down into three scenarios, in order of most to least likely. All three are based around methods for extending the human lifespan. In the first scenario, let's imagine a world where telomerase treatments reverse or mitigate cellular ageing.

      Now, to begin with, this isn't "immortality", even in the ageless sense, as there would still be terminal illnesses and cumulative damage. Lifespans would increase, but would not be infinite. Cancer would probably beat out all other natural causes put together. So, let's say the average lifespan is a century or two.

      The window of opportunity for having kids would remain mostly where it is now. This is because gametes age and run out regardless of the ageing going on in your other bodily tissues. A woman is born with a finite number of eggs, and they have an best-before date that has nothing to do with telomeres. Men would stay fertile longer, though not indefinitely, but the population growth rate is capped by the number of fertile females, not males.

      Thus, the most likely scenario for anti-ageing drugs would not affect the rate of population growth rate, and would only increase the average lifespan by a limited margin. Given that the developed world is already at or below replacement level fertility, this would not pose a problem for the global population. And the developing world would need to modernize before they could implement this kind of medical care regardless, so they would probably also see a decline in growth to match our own, if history is any precedent.

      Now, a second scenario would be perfect clinical immortality. No disease is terminal, no age related damage irreversible, no injury permanent. People only die traumatic deaths, whether by accident, violence or suicide.

      The population still wouldn't skyrocket. People in the western world put off having kids already, generally waiting as long as natural fertility allows. How long would we put off having kids if we had no biological clock counting down? Decades? Centuries? A long time, regardless.

      People still wouldn't live forever either. I've seen estimate that state that if death by old age vanished tomorrow, the average life expectancy would work out to about 300-500 years. Might be less if suicide became a common cause of death. And while the population might level out, the growth rate would slow to a crawl.

      Now, the final option would be complete immortality. To accomplish this, we'd need to be able to make backups, against the risk of traumatic death. The mechanism for backing up a human being would almost certainly entail whole brain uploading.

      With the capacity to upload brains comes the capacity to live without bodies. Overpopulation becomes supremely irrelevant if many or most of us live inside virtual worlds. And as far as that goes, given how technologically unlikely this scenario is, who's to say we'd even need Earth at this stage?

      --
      Erotic is when you use a feather. Exotic is when you use the whole chicken.
    100. Re:Do not want by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How can anyone kill themselves outside of suicide? If you kill yourself, by definition it's suicide, it doesn't matter if the reason is that you hate your life or you just feel that you've accomplished all your goals. As for examples, I'm sure there are some. Perhaps Captain Oates, he was suffering with his health at the time, but the purpose behind his death wasn't to end his own suffering, but to not let that affect his companions. I'm sure there will be similar examples where people have made such a sacrifice despite being in no immediate danger of death.

    101. Re:Do not want by Toze · · Score: 1

      there are already 6 billion of us here, and that number will only increase, and there are only so many mouths we can feed & bodies we can clothe,

      I think it's kind of important that we keep in mind the following phrase;

      this land which you inhabit, shut in on all sides by the seas and surrounded by the mountain peaks, is too narrow for your large population; nor does it abound in wealth; and it furnishes scarcely food enough for its cultivators.

      Pope Urban II, 1095, calling the First Crusade. In other words, friend, humans have had a perception of "too many people and not enough food" for at least a thousand years, and since our population was approximately 1/10th what it is today (Europe had 70-100MM in 11th c., 800MM today). Which isn't to say that sustainability concerns aren't valid, but it's a small step from a perception of overpopulation to a policy of leibensraum, and such claims have in the past turned out to be laughably incorrect. In point of fact, the last five decades have seen remarkable increases in food production in North America, at the same time that there's been remarkable decreases in fertility- save for immigration, we're in a population decline already, due to social rather than resource reasons. I think there's less cause to worry than you suggest, since at least regionally it's false that "that number will only increase," and historically it's false that "there are only so many mouths we can feed."

      --
      No OS on the planet can protect itself from a user with the admin password. - Yvan256
    102. Re:Do not want by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nagel's ideas are just coping strategies. When you are confronted with the absolute inevitability of death, it is natural to attribute to it some measure of significance. That helps you deal with it.

      Once immortality becomes a real option, the whole game changes.

       

    103. Re:Do not want by Kosi · · Score: 1

      That's a little bit shortsighted. Even if it wouldn't have disastrous effects on human society (like the immortals becoming so rich and powerful that the mortals are mere slaves), it would put evolution of mankind to a stop. It would be much better to treat only special people like science or art geniuses and the Ghandis of this world. And not anyone with a greed for wealth or power.

      In think we should not have immortality treatments before we a) have learned to live in peace together and b) are colonizing space effectively enough that there is no risk of overpopulation.

    104. Re:Do not want by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lol, zapotek your comment is funny. you my friend are afraid of death, and yes you will die, death is certain for all things in this life, and the next. for thousands of years people have promised the elixir of life and none have or will find it, because nature, the tao, god , energy, whatever you call it follows a law and that law is the correct and only way, fools to think there is something other than what is, your abstracts get in the way of what really is.

    105. Re:Do not want by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People would still die of hunger, drunk driving, war, etc ...
      The funny thing is after a few centuries, selection would kick in: lots of folks would have died of drunk driving, crime, etc ..., and there would be a big proportion of the population being "old survivors", the kind of guys taking no risks in life.
      What a wonderful world?

      Oh, by the way, since I'm French, I have to wonder about the proper age for retirement in such a society ...

    106. Re:Do not want by delinear · · Score: 1

      This would have zero bearing on evolution. Since most humans already get their breeding out of the way in the first half of their lives, there's no inherent selection advantage to an unusually long lifespan/immortatlity, and so long as this is a treatment (i.e. not something your children can inherit genetically) it wouldn't affect those who come after. There might be more chance of people "sowing their oats" if they're super wealthy, but the immortality would be a perk of that, not the main driving factor. Meanwhile, evidence suggests poor people procreate at least as much as the rich.

    107. Re:Do not want by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's right, but all I get is a few decades. What's wrong with a few centuries? Compared to the billions of years of the geological/astronomical things you refer to.

    108. Re:Do not want by electroniceric · · Score: 1

      Excellent post. You should read this piece by Atul Gawande about treating people at the end of their lives:
      http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/08/02/100802fa_fact_gawande

      Two takeaways. First, hospice is the work of the angels. I have observed this with my mother-in-law's death from cancer, and almost everyone I've talked to seems to agree.
      Second, your remark about Vietnamese having incense and pictures of ancestors is incredibly on-point, and that's what brought to mind Gawande's article. People need traditions and structure around dying to guide them through it, and that's largely missing in modern American life. My wife, who has seen a lot of death in her 35 years (mother, father, grandparents, close family friends, etc.) keeps a fair number of her ancestors close. WASP that I am, my family has none of these traditions and little to guide me when it comes to death. The Vietnamese have it right.

    109. Re:Do not want by AmonTheMetalhead · · Score: 1

      Look, i wouldn't mind to live to be a 150 years (random number pulled from arse), the fact is however, as far as i can see, mankind pretty much sucks.

      We have overproduction of (subsidized) foods on one side, and starving people on the other side, we have like 5% of the world's population controlling 90% of the world's resources, and you want to add immortality to that list?

      As long we as a species aren't able to actually live in a world that's at peace and where famine no longer exists, then we aren't ready.

      Besides, i'd doubt the religious zealots would let this ever pass to human testing, they'd be crying that we're playing gods.

    110. Re:Do not want by dargaud · · Score: 1

      yes and again in 100 years nobody will give a shit about you me or anybody else for that matter

      Not necessarily: if you did stuff remarkable enough, you'll be remembered by some people (be it your offsprings or others). It should be an incentive to live better lives than being driven only by greed like most people are.

      There already exist one foolproof way to increase life expectancy: have children later in life. If everybody does it (that is, those who didn't die of disease or drove recklessly while drunk), then after a few generations you indeed increase life expectancy as you weed out the genetic factors involved in those diseases or behaviors. But obviously everybody is screaming "I don't want my descendants to live longer thanks to me, _I_ want to live longer". Selfish bastards the whole lot of them, otherwise having children after 40 would be mandatory

      --
      Non-Linux Penguins ?
    111. Re:Do not want by delinear · · Score: 1

      The world is already heading towards a population crisis, immortality or no, so why can we only develop the latter after reducing fertility? You might as well say that untreated flu kills a lot of people, so in order to get a flu shot you have to agree to sterilisation. Same for any of the common treatments we have these days for illnesses that used to kill thousands. Note, the people who are trying to solve one problem are not (necessarily) the same people who are responsible for solving the other.

    112. Re:Do not want by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      You should read the article, it states clearly that a male mouse that was old and lost ability to reproduce, was given the treatment and actually was successfully reproducing after it.

    113. Re:Do not want by sorak · · Score: 1

      Thinking of a worst-case scenario, this would be like giving those hard working and intelligent enough a pass at a super-long life, while eliminating the unwashed masses.

      I don't know if I buy the assumption that the wealthiest among us are more "hard-working and intelligent" than those with less money, but it is interesting to think of how the price point for this would be determined. After all, even if it is cheap to make, think of how much money it would save in hospital bills alone. when you add in an estimated monetary value for the extra years gained by the treatment, they could name their price. (That is assuming no side-effects)

      Would they charge such a high amount that CEOs and celebrities would pay millions to buy an extra ten years? Would they mass-produce the stuff and charge just enough so that it is cheaper than a heart attack? Would insurance companies cover just enough treatment to keep workers 'perpetually 55' (or whatever the ideal age is, where the medical risk and cost of treatment are optimum)?

    114. Re:Do not want by pitchpipe · · Score: 1

      Let the people die, it's why we were born in the first place.

      It's called Stockholm Syndrome. There is nothing fucking positive about death. Let me repeat: there is NOTHING positive about death. Rationalize all that you want, it will not change the fact that death is pure destruction.

      --
      Look where all this talking got us, baby.
    115. Re:Do not want by misexistentialist · · Score: 1

      Nagel is not praising death when he concludes: If there is no limit to the amount of life it would be good to have, then it may be that a bad end is in store for all of us. Certainly old age gradually strips out most of the good in life, serving as a great preparation for death, but most people have a tragically short "prime" which could not be extended too much (though I doubt the laws of universe will look favorably on such an endeavor).

    116. Re:Do not want by apoc.famine · · Score: 1

      Would it really be a "nightmare"? I tend to think not. I've had plenty of pets over the years. And a lot of them died. They were great friends and companions to me, but I haven't been living a "nightmare".

      I think that the percentage of time in your life that you're "with" someone/something is pretty much proportional to how attached you get. When young, dead fish and hamsters are traumatic. When you're older, not so much. When the dog that's just passed is one in a line of ten that you've had, you'll be sad, but probably not devastated. When the family dog dies when you're a child, that's traumatic.

      Yes, people are different, but if they have the life expectancy of pets to you, why would you mentally treat them differently? Sure, you'll be sad when they go. But just like there's always another puppy to get, so will there be more mortal friends to have.

      --
      Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
    117. Re:Do not want by Script+Cat · · Score: 1

      The proposed treatment does not make you indestructible. You won't be floating in an empty universe with all the stars extinct and all matter decayed to subatomic particles in the vast 0 degree K void. The arguments against this technology are based on a large emotional investment in death. The emotional investment is so large that death is too big to fail as it were. Because the idea of a pill, that can prevent the degeneration killed all of our predecessors that wern't squished by rocks, makes us feel guilty. So we will see a lot of arguments that ageing death is necessary.

    118. Re:Do not want by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      time is cause and effect, so to reverse aging you would have to undo cause and effect, not going to happen sry to have to be the one to reviel this to you

    119. Re:Do not want by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If we all lived a little longer the population would be better educated and and population would actually decline or level off. We would not be such impulsive decision makers and a more carefully thought out society. More education= Lower birth rates.

    120. Re:Do not want by Courageous · · Score: 1

      You seriously need to look at the mathematics of it all from scratch. Ask yourself a wide varieties of questions about 1st world countries, breeding rates, traditional reasons for having children, and so forth, and you'll quickly calculate a risk that an immortal world could be the opposite of what you say: a world in which the population slowly trends downward. Don't take my word for it. Consider the issues.

      C//

    121. Re:Do not want by khallow · · Score: 1

      I read a book titled "Mortal Questions", by a philosophy professor named Thomas Nagel. In one of the chapters, he argued part of living is also dying. So to die is to "complete the totality of your existence."

      I agree with AC. This is just a coping strategy. To see why, ask yourself this question. Why is it a good idea to "complete the totality of your existence" a few decades from now rather say a thousand years from now (or for that matter, at all)? What is the hurry?

      And as another AC noted, would your father have been so willing to accept death, if he were healthy with a long life ahead of himself?

      As I see it, these stories aren't useful because they don't tell you how people would act or the choices they would make in the absence of expectation of a short, painful death.

    122. Re:Do not want by Chapter80 · · Score: 1

      Thinking of a worst-case scenario, this would be like giving those hard working and intelligent enough a pass at a super-long life, while eliminating the unwashed masses. That poses another problem, but everything is a problem, and in truth nothing is a total solution.

      Actually, what you describe reminds me of the final solution (or more accurately, the radical policies of Nazi Germany.

      From Wikipedia:

      The Nazi Party pursued its racial and social policies through persecution and killing of those considered social undesirables ...
      Especially targeted [included] ... people with mental or physical disabilities

      The scary thing is that I agreed with most everything you said.... and then I thought "waaaaaait a minute!"

    123. Re:Do not want by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      actually it might be a blessing in disguise. If people actually are around long enough to live / held responsible for the results they create, There might be less short term profitism and more environmental responsibility.

      Thu the cynic in me says the rich will just buy their way out of it as per usual.

    124. Re:Do not want by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I honestly have never understood this attitude. People say it, but never give a reason. Why? You say you love life, so when would that change for you? At what point do you become effectively suicidal? Are you anticipating an afterlife?

      I suppose when all your friends and immediate family were long gone and you've lost touch with the values and interests and common ground of society at large. I don't think it would be bad enough to want to die personally, but I suppose it would get depressing which is usually a good start down that path.

    125. Re:Do not want by sjames · · Score: 1

      One interesting side effect of immortal rich people, they have a LOT more to lose if the "commoners" come after them with guillotines again.

    126. Re:Do not want by electroniceric · · Score: 1

      So really, as counter-intuitive as it sounds, a general purpose anti-ageing treatment would just about be the best way to stop overpopulation from getting any worse.

      Sort of. Currently the best way to reduce overpopulation is to reduce infant mortality. Once parents know that their chances are high of getting several kids who will live to adulthood, they fairly quickly tend to have less kids. I'm not sure how this argument extends out once you're talking about people who are going to live a long time.

      Another big factor to consider is how these long-lived people fit into the economy. Do they work until they're 100? Is this anti-aging stuff really going to keep brains and bodies healthy enough for a 95 year-old to be an account, a truck driver, a software engineer, a waiter?

    127. Re:Do not want by khallow · · Score: 2

      I say, let nature take it's course, there are more important issue's at hand then to postpone the death (whether or not this is permanent or not) of humans isn't one of them.

      Postponement of death is just as natural as anything else that happens in the universe.

      This fear of death is not healthy, it prevents you to fully enjoy life itself, and that's a shame, because you only get one shot at it.

      And that's what it really boils down to. Any attempt to improve your life and "fully enjoy life itself" by avoiding the massive suck that is dying of old age, is a "fear" of death.

      You know what I'd like to do? I'd like to set foot on worlds other than Earth. I'd like to meet some of the other inhabitants of this universe. I'd like to change myself into truly alien forms, experience life and the universe in ways that I never dreamed of, create things that I can't understand now. You know, live life to the fullest.

      But you know what? You can't do that on a human budget. So we comfort ourselves by claiming that we didn't want that anyway. I want things that are unattainable to me. Too bad. But I can make a world where some future generation gets that chance.

    128. Re:Do not want by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      Where does a naked homeless guy get his internet access? I had assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that pretty much everyone here had used life lengthening artificial shelter and clothing. That they in fact fought against nature to increase their lifespan.

    129. Re:Do not want by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      Both of your examples were of people who's quality of life was so bad that dieing was better, and they knew they were going to die anyway. If you father was healthy and fit with the body of a 20 year old, do you really think that you would as accepting of his death?

      Yes, there are worse things than death, but if you can avoid those worse things, then death looks a lot less attractive.

    130. Re:Do not want by tarius8105 · · Score: 1

      If I had a choice I'd extend my life so that I can enjoy life more by being able to do more. I'm 30 yrs old and I'm already slowing down. The notion that for me to enjoy life I must expect death, which can happen at any point along the way, is a crock of shit. The problem with saying let nature take its course, is what is the natural course? The idea of letting nature take its course would apply to other aspects like using our technology to deflect an earth killer asteroid. That is a natural death and yet we would try to avoid it.

      I'm not saying there wouldnt be challenges for the individual or the society but let the person deicde their own fate and do not dictate to them whether or not, if available in the future, if they could have this drug. I suspect the easiest thing that would be is if they decided to move on, they stop taking the drug.

    131. Re:Do not want by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the memory of you is passed on through generations, you do live forever.

      Uh, sorry, but no, you don't. The memory lives on, not the person. If that is important to those who live on is another matter. But please do not confuse the two.

      ASPERGETRON, ENGAGE!

      This life is fleeting, and most people never really live it, but word-fame is forever.

    132. Re:Do not want by musmax · · Score: 0

      Just imagine being a Junior programmer for 60 years.... Maybe I'll grock c++ then.... Junior pay for 60 years would suck though. On the other hand, living of oreos and coke for more than 30 years would probably reduce your lifespan significantly.

    133. Re:Do not want by ElizabethGreene · · Score: 1

      That's a little bit shortsighted. Even if it wouldn't have disastrous effects on human society (like the immortals becoming so rich and powerful that the mortals are mere slaves), it would put evolution of mankind to a stop. [...]

      Hey, wait a minute. Aren't corporations immortal?

      Have they become so rich and powerful that mortals are mere slaves?

      :(

    134. Re:Do not want by Kosi · · Score: 1

      You think in the right direction. The big corps are already too powerful to be in the hand of greedy human-looking assholes. But the bad things that would happen when guys like the billionaires in Russia and other godfathers of crime could plan for centuries would make the things that happen today look like perfect harmony.

      I wonder what effect such an immortality treatment would have on religions, especially those who sell themselves with a promise of an eternal afterlife.

    135. Re:Do not want by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think JRR Tolkien put it best when he had the elves give mortality another name: "The Gift of Man"

      The Eldar (elves) lived forever, and as such had millennia of sorrows weighing them down.

    136. Re:Do not want by Logical+Loki · · Score: 1

      The real problem isn't the availability of food. It's the availability of water. Corn, a C3 plant (meaning one of the most water efficient plants) still uses .15 inches of water, on average, a day. even during the rainier months, there aren't very many places that get 6 inches of rain a month. Most places in the bread basket of the US get about 3-4 during the rainy season. In order to make up the difference, we irrigate. But the central US has a lot of problems in that respect as well. People have been drawing water from a limestone aquifer that runs the length of the great plains, but that has almost run out of water. Even desalination is only a partial answer. Let me ask you, just how expensive do you think it will be to desalinate the amount of water needed for crops, and pipe it all the way to the fields that are far from the ocean? The truth is, fresh water is already being overtaxed. We need to find new sources of water before our population reaches a critical point.

    137. Re:Do not want by thesandtiger · · Score: 1

      I think it's "necessary" for me to live as long as I feel like, until I choose not to exist any more.

      Current population growth is *hardly* heading for a disaster, and we in fact produce *more* food than is needed - we're just shit at transporting and distributing it. Our MAIN energy source is actually the sun (indirectly, but hopefully soon rather directly), and within 100 years, hopefully we'll be able to have miniature suns providing energy as well. Our climate has always gone through changes (some rather more dramatic than what we're going through now) and if some of the worst short-term predictions are true, then we'll not have to worry about over-population due to a die-off. As far as resource utilization, we're getting more efficient in the manufacture & recycling of materials, and there are some extremely promising technologies also in development that might make resource scarcity functionally irrelevant.

      As to the idea of living forever - it's only a nightmare if you are *incredibly* stupid and unimaginative. Do you think that people would be literally UNABLE to die? Ever? And be forced to continue to exist (somehow) long after the heat death of the universe? Do you imagine that they'd just continue to decay and suffer but never actually die?

      I intend to live until I'm ready to die, however long that is. Maybe I won't get a choice in the matter, but I'd sure as hell like one, because for all the things I want to do, 100 years, +/- 20, doesn't seem like a hell of a lot.

      --
      Since I can't tell them apart, I treat all ACs as the same person.
    138. Re:Do not want by AmonTheMetalhead · · Score: 1

      Another issue is, let's say you manage to create a drug that stops aging without the nasty side effects of body wide cancerous growth or a failing brain, then what? Will you patent it, or release it to the public domain?

      Assuming you develop it while working for a pharmaceutical company, it's likely to end up patented and the company will try to maximize profits, so the company might release it as a pill you have to take daily, or as a treatment that reverts aging, say turns an 80 year old body back into a 20 year old body,the pills might cost a dollar a pop, making it 365$ a year, or the treatment might cost 50000$ a time, till the patent runs out.

      So here you have a treatment that comes at a price, is it morally acceptable to let a portion of the world die of because they can't afford the pills? Or if it's the other one, a treatment that costs 50000$, what if a couple only has enough money for one of them? Is that morally acceptable? And even if the drug only costs 1$ a day, you will still exclude millions of people to eternal youth.
      What about export? Do you allow export of this drug to other countries? Would it be morally acceptable to export a drug to a dictatorial country letting their dictator live on for generations?

      Other then the moral questions, what about the societal issue's? If you are essentially eternally young, do you still get to go on pension? Will you have to work forever?

      But let's put those questions aside, how well will the brain cope with the increased amount of data you will accumulate? There is no reason to assume we can store an infinite amount of data, what happens when we reach that limit?

      Of course, eternal life brings on a whole other problem as well, will the religious people accept the existence of such a drug, or will they do all they can to stop/destroy it? We've already seen how some people respond to simple science such as evolution, god knows (pun intended) how those will respond.

      The bottom line for me is this, we aren't ready for eternal life, we as a species are still driven by greed and superstition and until we manage to outgrow that, we should focus on the more direct issue's at hand.

    139. Re:Do not want by AmonTheMetalhead · · Score: 1

      What i would consider good is if we managed to actually evolve our society to the state that we are no longer motivated by personal gains and greed, and that we actually live in a peaceful world without starvation.

      Once we get to that state, then we could consider defeating death, but until then, it'll only increase the inequities that exist in this world and cause even more conflicts.

    140. Re:Do not want by AmonTheMetalhead · · Score: 1

      I would let you live regardless.

    141. Re:Do not want by AmonTheMetalhead · · Score: 1

      I seriously doubt that'll change much, people are shortsighted not only because of greed, but plain simply because we're stupid.

    142. Re:Do not want by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      What i would consider good is if we managed to actually evolve our society to the state that we are no longer motivated by personal gains and greed, and that we actually live in a peaceful world without starvation.

      - that makes no sense. Who is supposed to freely supply everybody with all these free items you want? You want somebody to supply everybody with everything, I don't understand what the upside for the supplier is if there is no profit motive. Explain.

      Once we get to that state, then we could consider defeating death, but until then, it'll only increase the inequities that exist in this world and cause even more conflicts.

      - but that's good thing, at least SOMETHING for us to use for the next evolution step.

      I don't believe in equality at all, not for a second. There is no equality, there should be no equality, there will never be equality. That's because some are always more capable than others in some sense of the word, whatever it is - physically, mentally, imaginatively, productively, whatever. There is no equality because the real world doesn't make carbon copies of people, do you understand? There are no clones, we are all different with different abilities and THAT is good, because it means that we have diversity.

      Diversity is better than equality any day of the week, because when some shit hits some proverbial fan, many will die but some will survive. And it's a good thing that NOT everybody will get the 'immortality treatment', because you never know which traits of the genome will come in handy at what point in time.

      No no no, I don't want equality, I want exceptional inequality displayed in all different ways, I want people to struggle and to fight to survive, not to live on a cloud and then not to see the proverbial train heading for them.

    143. Re:Do not want by Latinhypercube · · Score: 0

      I'm certain the birth rate would go down when people have the option to live forever. Plus it would only be available to the developed nations first. There would have to be new laws about how many children you can have maximum (since orthodox religions around the world breed like insects for their own survival, they would need regulation)

    144. Re:Do not want by AmonTheMetalhead · · Score: 1

      Well in the end it all comes down to perception, i see more problems created with such a drug then i see solved, i have moral & practical questions about it, and then there's still the matter of priorities, we have quite a lot of pressing problems that we still haven't solved even though we could if we wanted to.

    145. Re:Do not want by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      You keep saying "eternal life," but that implies that you can't die. From what I see, this just stops/reverses the aging process. It does not make you immortal.

      Another issue is, let's say you manage to create a drug that stops aging without the nasty side effects of body wide cancerous growth or a failing brain, then what? Will you patent it, or release it to the public domain?

      That's not an issue with the drug itself, but of human stupidity.

      is it morally acceptable to let a portion of the world die of because they can't afford the pills?

      This is already being done, only with food. Some people could, potentially, be saved, but they don't have any money to get the food.

      If you are essentially eternally young, do you still get to go on pension? Will you have to work forever?

      If you're able, why shouldn't you work? I'm against the idea of people sitting back and doing nothing while contributing nothing, mostly so if they've never even contributed anything.

      There is no reason to assume we can store an infinite amount of data, what happens when we reach that limit?

      Unlimited? No, but I'm sure we can hold a reasonably high amount of information. That said, you'd probably forget older things.

      Of course, eternal life brings on a whole other problem as well, will the religious people accept the existence of such a drug, or will they do all they can to stop/destroy it?

      Who cares? They can't do anything about it. The process of change shouldn't be halted simply because some ignorant people disagree. Nothing would get done that way.

      we aren't ready for eternal life

      I disagree. Not much would change. People would still die, though it would be from other causes. Even now, the world's population is in need of some thinning.

      we as a species are still driven by greed and superstition

      You speak of many people, but not all. Your environment is largely what shapes you. If people grow up in a society where it is normal to be a greedy, superstitious person, chances are (if they are weak-minded) they will be a greedy, superstitious person themselves. Change that environment and the hoards are sure to follow.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    146. Re:Do not want by AmonTheMetalhead · · Score: 1

      That bit about eternity is actually something i came to while discussing the possibility of an afterlife and how desirable such a thing would be.

      But even living quietly is an experience.

    147. Re:Do not want by AmonTheMetalhead · · Score: 1

      I've discussed the consequences of eternal existence with religious people before, and one thing i noticed is that a lot of people fail to understand how long eternal is. In my previous post i wasn't saying you'd be immune to violence or anything i was just trying to make the point that people often have problems imagining long periods of time (something i suspect is also the reason some people fail to grasp evolution)

      I personally plan to become 150 years or older, but i realize that that is unlikely. And like you, i have issue's with people who think they can rape nature as they please.

      English isn't my native tongue, so sometimes my posts do not reflect precisely what i mean, but i have moral and practical issue's and problems with such a drug that should be dealt with before we create such a drug, well, in my opinion anyway.

    148. Re:Do not want by AmonTheMetalhead · · Score: 1

      Or people stop trying to get rich. As long as personal gains & greed drive us we'll have problems.

    149. Re:Do not want by AmonTheMetalhead · · Score: 1

      There is a difference (for me) between prolonging life & disabling death.

    150. Re:Do not want by AmonTheMetalhead · · Score: 1

      There is actually overproduction of food in the western world due to subsidized farming, but the foods that we make to much of get wasted instead of put to use.

    151. Re:Do not want by AmonTheMetalhead · · Score: 1

      It's got nothing to do with Stockholm syndrome, i don't have a romanticized idea of death, nor do i believe in an afterlife, i however do believe we as a species are not ready for immortality.

    152. Re:Do not want by AmonTheMetalhead · · Score: 1

      I don't agree with you, i have no vested interest in death, nor do i have a guilt complex, i however have moral issue's and practical issue's.

      If you are going to consider death as a decease, is it morally acceptable to withhold treatment to less fortunate (read: poor) people? What with pensions? How will the religious react? If we can't even manage to feed everyone on this rock, should we even be continuing with pursuing immorality?

    153. Re:Do not want by AmonTheMetalhead · · Score: 1

      I consider the whole population, would you be morally ok with limiting the access to this drug to 1st world countries? Or would you limit it even further & forbid export? Would you be ok with it if it was only accessible to the richest people on this globe & politicians?

    154. Re:Do not want by AmonTheMetalhead · · Score: 1

      I want those same things, i'd love to visit Mars and other worlds, i'd give an arm & a leg for it, in a manner speak, as would i love to solve world hunger and institute world peace.

      It comes down to priorities, i would rather see us solve things like famines and such, things that are already in our reach, instead of pursuing immortality which in our current society would only benefit the super rich.

    155. Re:Do not want by AmonTheMetalhead · · Score: 1

      Look, while i do hope they don't make such a drug available (yet?) does not imply that i would take actions against it, i would just rather see us tackle the already existing problems in our world that have been in our reach for ages but still persist, such as famine & homeless people., but i suppose that we'll need to outgrow our need for personal gains and greed before that can happen.

    156. Re:Do not want by AmonTheMetalhead · · Score: 1

      - that makes no sense. Who is supposed to freely supply everybody with all these free items you want? You want somebody to supply everybody with everything, I don't understand what the upside for the supplier is if there is no profit motive. Explain.

      I believe people should work for society, not for personal gain, i have no interest in owning a Mercedes Benz or BMW, nor do i need a bigger house then my neighbor, and i'd be more then happy to contribute to a society that actually takes care of all it's citizens, i don't really know how to express it properly in English, but seeing this is a geek nest, think Star Trek TNG.

      - but that's good thing, at least SOMETHING for us to use for the next evolution step.

      I don't believe in equality at all, not for a second. There is no equality, there should be no equality, there will never be equality. That's because some are always more capable than others in some sense of the word, whatever it is - physically, mentally, imaginatively, productively, whatever. There is no equality because the real world doesn't make carbon copies of people, do you understand? There are no clones, we are all different with different abilities and THAT is good, because it means that we have diversity.

      Diversity is better than equality any day of the week, because when some shit hits some proverbial fan, many will die but some will survive. And it's a good thing that NOT everybody will get the 'immortality treatment', because you never know which traits of the genome will come in handy at what point in time.

      No no no, I don't want equality, I want exceptional inequality displayed in all different ways, I want people to struggle and to fight to survive, not to live on a cloud and then not to see the proverbial train heading for them.

      So i take it you have no problem with people starving in Ethiopia even though they might potentially be smarter then yo? But just because they were born in the wrong part of the world they can go rot? Sorry, but i find such a view repulsive. Society needs people with different skill sets, but what makes your skill better or worse then the others?

    157. Re:Do not want by kasperd · · Score: 1

      If everyone lives forever barring violent death, a two-baby rule would lead to overpopulation.

      Only if you assume that everybody makes full use of the quota. If you assume the two children is a maximum and a very small percentage of people get less, then the total number of people ever born will be limited. And if you also assume that it is possible to die given sufficiently unfortunate circumstances, then the total number of people alive will converge towards zero (with a potentially long half time).

      So, a two child limit would (if it could be enforced) solve overpopulation on the long term. A one child limit will cause population to decrease "fast" with a half time of one generation. You could come up with some middle ground between the two. For example you could say you are allowed to have two children if at least one of the parents is a single child. If both parents have siblings, only one child is allowed.

      But of course enforcing it is problematic no matter how you define the limit. Counting it is easier if you apply the limit to the mother. But, what would you do with a pregnant woman who is not allowed to give birth to another child?

      --

      Do you care about the security of your wireless mouse?
    158. Re:Do not want by Script+Cat · · Score: 1

      We don't feed nearly as many people as we are technically capable of. This is a cultural failing. And we are trapped on this rock because people with their small lives are limited in their ability to do anything long term. We lost Newton, Einstein, et al. and this is bad. At the risk of evoking Godwin, we just have to be careful to squish the evil dictators with rocks or something. There will be new problems to be sure, but mankind has always encountered problems whenever technology advances. We solve some and we encounter others. This is advancement. But it's moot for now. It looks like those mice were genetically engineered with an on/off switch on their genome to produce telomerase. So this doesn't work on the current production model of humans. So it would be something to add to the Gatica types.

    159. Re:Do not want by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      I believe people should work for society, not for personal gain, i have no interest in owning a Mercedes Benz or BMW

      - oh, I see. So because you have no interest in whatever, it means nobody should be able to get it because it goes against your principles. Isn't that what 'communism' and other various such ideas start with: you should do what is good not for you but for everybody. Doesn't it always degenerate into a society of those on top and on the bottom with basically nobody in the middle, and you are talking about GOOD?

      So i take it you have no problem with people starving in Ethiopia even though they might potentially be smarter then yo?

      - no, I don't. If they are smarter, then they should do something and change those conditions. I bet many do and I bet that what many of them do you wouldn't approve of either.

      But just because they were born in the wrong part of the world they can go rot?

      - yes. Or they can do what I did and immigrate (and I moved many times, I moved from country to country more often than most end up moving from city to city.)

      Sorry, but i find such a view repulsive.

      - good. Diversity.

      Society needs people with different skill sets, but what makes your skill better or worse then the others?

      - only the ability to do something with those skills to get better life for yourself.

      You want to 'change the world' on the back of various people, who in your mind should do what you think is best, that's is bad in my world, that's dictatorship.

      I prefer free market of ideas, where people do what they can based on their abilities, based on what the market is willing to bear, based on choices, not based on ideology, that ended up on multiple occasions, and will end up again and again, costing millions of people's lives, millions of people's freedoms and retardation of progress.

      You see, that's what happens when someone's particular idea of something good and moral is allowed to be trampling all over other people's choices.

      This idea of yours is the one that is repulsive to me, and again, that's good, that's diversity.

      --
      PS. the ideas you hold look to me to be academic, I on the other hand have first and second hand experience with them, my relatives have gone through the genocide of Ukrainians in the thirties by the communist leaders, I was born in the USSR and lived there enough time as well, so to me this is very much practical, I am not only unwilling to subscribe to such ideas, I would really be standing on the way and would be violently preventing any such thing from happening to me again... so as I said, diversity is good.

      Cheers.

    160. Re:Do not want by AmonTheMetalhead · · Score: 1

      - oh, I see. So because you have no interest in whatever, it means nobody should be able to get it because it goes against your principles.

      No, i do hope our society evolves in that direction, but i would not impose my principles on you or anyone else.

      Isn't that what 'communism' and other various such ideas start with: you should do what is good not for you but for everybody. Doesn't it always degenerate into a society of those on top and on the bottom with basically nobody in the middle, and you are talking about GOOD?

      Sofar every society has fallen, it's not because ours is still standing that it'll stay standing, as a slashdot reader you should be more then aware of the tendencies of governments towards police states, the eroding of our civil rights is fully underway, i doubt this is directly related to 'communism' itself, besides, as i said, i hope we as a species evolve in such a way that we would no longer feel the need to squish others.

      - no, I don't. If they are smarter, then they should do something and change those conditions. I bet many do and I bet that what many of them do you wouldn't approve of either.

      They might be smarter, but if you are born in a society that lacks schooling it doesn't matter if you have a natural gift with math, and if your parents lack means you might starve before you are even one year old. What makes this even worse is the fact that we actually have the means to prevent it, we already have overproduction of food, but we chose not to use it.

      As for your other point, why would i have issue with that?

      - yes. Or they can do what I did and immigrate (and I moved many times, I moved from country to country more often than most end up moving from city to city.)

      What would have happened to you if you were born into a family that could not afford to school you? Or feed you for that matter?

      - only the ability to do something with those skills to get better life for yourself.

      You want to 'change the world' on the back of various people, who in your mind should do what you think is best, that's is bad in my world, that's dictatorship.

      I prefer free market of ideas, where people do what they can based on their abilities, based on what the market is willing to bear, based on choices, not based on ideology, that ended up on multiple occasions, and will end up again and again, costing millions of people's lives, millions of people's freedoms and retardation of progress.

      You see, that's what happens when someone's particular idea of something good and moral is allowed to be trampling all over other people's choices.

      This idea of yours is the one that is repulsive to me, and again, that's good, that's diversity.

      -- PS. the ideas you hold look to me to be academic, I on the other hand have first and second hand experience with them, my relatives have gone through the genocide of Ukrainians in the thirties by the communist leaders, I was born in the USSR and lived there enough time as well, so to me this is very much practical, I am not only unwilling to subscribe to such ideas, I would really be standing on the way and would be violently preventing any such thing from happening to me again... so as I said, diversity is good.

      Cheers.

      You might not expect it, but i agree with you that nobody should impose their morals on another, i disagree with your statement that it was communism itself that was at the core of the problems with those countries, in my opinion our species is just not ready yet to live in peace.

      As for diversity, yes, that is good.

    161. Re:Do not want by Khyber · · Score: 1

      Water is not an issue with proper hydroponic techniques. What you speak of is for traditional soil. Let us take grass, like barley grass. An acre of that takes approximately 100,000 gallons if grown in soil. On the other hand, you could do the exact same thing in an NFT system, and produce an acre of barley grass with a mere 1,000 gallons of water - a 99% reduction in water requirements. Of course, this reduction will vary depending upon crop type, but good NFT systems can easily drop most crop water requirements by about 60%.

      Energy requirements for grass fodder can be drastically reduced, as well - http://imgur.com/mkCcF.jpg there's a fodder production system (barley grass) that uses absolutely no light at all. It's a specialized method my partners developed.

      Really, resources are not the issue given our current technology (if the world were to adapt it.)

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    162. Re:Do not want by AmonTheMetalhead · · Score: 1

      Everyone wants to stay at 1, the question isn't about wanting something, the question is, should we do it.

    163. Re:Do not want by Dadoo · · Score: 1

      Well, odds are this would only be available to those that could afford it, while the general masses die off.

      It took a minute for this to occur to me, but your above statement (if true) seems like it would result in a world where all the wealthiest people have been around for hundreds of years, while everyone else has a normal lifespan. If you think there's a lot of revisionist history out there now, imagine what it would be like in that scenario. The ability to control "the masses" would be unprecedented and class mobility would be eliminated.

      Scary.

      --
      Sit, Ubuntu, sit. Good dog.
    164. Re:Do not want by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      communism and your ideals, all of this falls on the ground in the face of this simple question, which you have not answered:

      Who and why should be supplying you with all these things you want to be supplied with if there is no profit motive in it for them?

      Think about that.

      You said that you didn't want a BMW (I had one for 3 years I leased it, hopefully can do it again some time later).

      But OK, you don't want a BMW, you do want SOMETHING, right? Do you want to be able to move around in a car or even in public transit system?

      So who is supposed to build it if they gain nothing from it?

      If your answer is: communism will provide a method for people to define common goals and to work together towards them and all this nice jazz, remember this: people generally speaking DO NOT WANT TO WORK.

      OK? If life taught me anything is that most people want a lot of stuff and they are not interested in really working for it. Most people do not start companies, most people are looking for 9-5 jobs. But there are those who start companies, many of them fail, some succeed and they provide employment opportunities for others in society and they produce what is actually wealth (all these BMWs and food and all the other stuff, that's wealth.)

      In a communist society, there will be a bunch of people fighting to get to the top, to make sure they get the most privileges, and the top positions still count as work, but somebody needs to build something, somebody needs to grow food and somebody needs to clean toilets.

      So tell me, who, in your estimations is more deserving than somebody else (as you have asked me a similar question about Ethiopians), who will be cleaning the toilets?

      Who will be working on the top?

      Or did you think that communist societies will not have top government, and everything will be completely democratic, without any management?

      OK, so no management then, right? So who sets the goals of production capacity? Who makes the stuff? Who decides how much stuff to make?

      You see, in a free market system all of these questions are DISCOVERED through trade. You try to sell me yourself as labor, I try to self myself to a lender as an entrepreneur, then I try to sell the products on the market, where people make choices whether to buy my product or not to buy.

      Without the top management in a communist system, who will be making these decisions if the production is all based on an agreement just to work together without the profit motive?

      If you can come up with a system, which allows the society to not split into the very TOP positions and the bottom and at the same time to provide the people in the society with EVERYTHING they want, then you know what, you will have found the answer to your question.

      But the answer to your question is NOT about human evolution, it's a very simple question really, much simpler than evolution. It's a question of resources, question of work, question of trade, question of supply and demand. It's simple, it's just economics (and economics is very simple in reality.)

      The point is that what you are looking for is not about some sort of 'evolution', it's not about achieving some higher level of morality, it's not about good or bad.

      The point is that what you are actually looking for is a free market system, which sets the goals by trade and thus by choice of people to spend their efforts (expressed as money) on this or on that product. This means that SOME products will succeed and some will fail, but this means that there will be a failure as well as success in business, but this means that businesses will have to compete, but this means that there will be effort wasted by somebody, while somebody else's effort will not be wasted.

      But then your question becomes: should those, with the effort that is wasted not be rewarded the SAME as those whose effort ended up in success?

      Well there you go, that's the most basic question, should winners get more than losers OR can you have a system with

    165. Re:Do not want by kangsterizer · · Score: 1

      You don't see it at the right level.

      A smart tyrant will stay in place forever. He dies, and leaves place to his son, a different person. Eventually he will fail, or the son's son, you never know. For example, the dark ages in Europe.

      Likewise the rich and smart would always stay rich at the expense of other people, in general.

      You can apply that at various different levels. Expand your view.

      It's probably even part of evolution, just not at the physical level.

    166. Re:Do not want by kangsterizer · · Score: 1

      then die with it, natural selection will avoid it in the future *cough* ;-)
      (kidding)

    167. Re:Do not want by khallow · · Score: 1

      It comes down to priorities, i would rather see us solve things like famines and such, things that are already in our reach, instead of pursuing immortality which in our current society would only benefit the super rich.

      Thing is that getting fed is a solved problem. So that's no longer a priority for me Dying from old age? That's unsolved and hence, a problem for me.

    168. Re:Do not want by zakeria · · Score: 1

      Being remembered for the good things you did while on this earth is not really a good thing in the end as time goes on more and more people use you and what you did as excuse to fuck other people over for some mental reason of some sort... Jesus, Mohammad, Martin Luther King, Bill Crosby lol

    169. Re:Do not want by monkyyy · · Score: 1

      you must be old assuming that its different for young people

      my thanksgiving brake flew by faster then an hour of today did

      --
      warning pointless sig
    170. Re:Do not want by monkyyy · · Score: 0, Troll

      so effectively youd become a crazy cat woman who never left home cause she had to take care of her dozens of cats rather then make friends

      --
      warning pointless sig
    171. Re:Do not want by Courageous · · Score: 1

      What, in your mind, is responsible for the delta in birth rates in 1st and 3rd world countries?

      C//

    172. Re:Do not want by Thing+1 · · Score: 1

      Maybe life is one big video game with a confusing intro and no manual.

      Yep! "Believe it or not, I'm walking on air, I never though I could feel so free-ee-ee, flying away, on a wing and a prayer, whoooo-ooo could it be? Believe it or not, it's just me" (from childhood memory, may not be completely accurate) That show set the stage for a lot of events in my life. :)

      --
      I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
    173. Re:Do not want by Thing+1 · · Score: 1

      Sure, but the streaming backups do make me immortal. Until you find my "home", that is.

      --
      I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
    174. Re:Do not want by Thing+1 · · Score: 1

      "Pursuit of happiness"?

      --
      I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
    175. Re:Do not want by randyleepublic · · Score: 0

      >> I am almost sure I will never see this treatment

      Not so fast: www.sierrasci.com

      We're working on it!  Should have a pharmaceutical solution ready in about 20 years.  We are on our way to bringing a nuetracuetical solution (weak, but will help) to market by Q2 2011.

      --
      Social Credit would solve everything...
    176. Re:Do not want by dargaud · · Score: 1

      Touché

      --
      Non-Linux Penguins ?
    177. Re:Do not want by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We are fully capable of producing enough food, heck we throw away useful food. Where I live it's even more economical to burn food as fuel than to ship it. There is no problem with food at all, there is more then enough even for the double of todays population. The problem is greed, and that is the biggest obstakle of them all. Free market capitalaizion hurray.

      We are far from outbreading our selfes, and it's evident when you take part of non biased research. There are no scientific proofs of us overbreading, it's just a simplification for people who cannot se any fault in their own way of living. And that simplification is regarded as a fact, while it's not.

      But true to live in this world forever would truly be a nightmare, unless the world will change to the better.

    178. Re:Do not want by Sabriel · · Score: 1

      Closer to 7 billion, and might reach it sometime late next year.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population
      http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/popclockworld.html

    179. Re:Do not want by kiddygrinder · · Score: 1

      there's ways of keeping population down, for example you can't breed if you're ever going to take the drug. also, it's not that scary to have eternal youth if you can just take a gun to your face when you've had enough.

      --
      This is a joke. I am joking. Joke joke joke.
    180. Re:Do not want by sac13 · · Score: 1

      If the memory of you is passed on through generations, you do live forever.

      Uh, sorry, but no, you don't. The memory lives on, not the person. If that is important to those who live on is another matter. But please do not confuse the two.

      What is "the person"?

      I think you're focusing on the word live instead of what is the real meaning of being a person. Is it the body? If so, does that mean the person in a permanent coma or virtually brain dead is alive?

      To me, it's a question of identity. Do you identify with the hardware (the body) or the software (spirit, essence, humanity, name your own term)?

      Personally, I identify with the software. What "I" am is not a physical manifestation. "I" exist within a physical entity, but that is not "me."

      Memories of people are essentially small copies of that essence that are stored in other pieces of hardware. So, for me, you do continue to live through memory.

      It may not be the totality of what "you" are. But, the imprints we leave on each other have a lasting impact on our behaviour. And by understanding that, we have the opportunity to achieve a type of immortality if we can effect the right influences in our physical lifetimes. Think of people like Mother Theresa and you can see that one can have a positive effect even after physical death due to the resonance of humanity affirming actions within life.

      But, this is a completely philosophical question we're dealing with. So, your answer is as good as mine. But, for me, I find that taking the longer view of what it means to be alive leads to a more positive direction with respect to mankind in my physical journey through the universe.

    181. Re:Do not want by Courageous · · Score: 1

      I asked you the previous question because it would appear that you think about the 3rd world as a static place. The entire world is 1st world-ifying. I would find it morally abhorrent to limit a cure for death to any human being; I also foresee no need to do so. Each country where such medical systems are in effect will have to deal with food-resource-population controls in their own way. I don't anticipate much of a problem: people who know they are immortal have little urgent need to breed, and will know it.

  6. It won't necessarily help humans - or normal mice by Chrisq · · Score: 1

    Mice bread without an enzyme age prematurely. Injecting them with the enzyme reversed this process. This does not necessarily mean that injecting normal mice with more of the enzyme will have any affect on their ageing.

  7. Using old mice? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They enginered mice without the enzyme in question then reintorduced it - why not also try it on old mice???? Or would that not have resulted in the 'headline' (read grant money).

    1. Re:Using old mice? by AmonTheMetalhead · · Score: 1

      They were impatient

  8. See that all the time by josgeluk · · Score: 3, Funny

    It was probably the unexpected attention that the elderly mice got, that made them feel happy and youthful. That, and a placebo effect.

    1. Re:See that all the time by SteveFoerster · · Score: 1

      Besides, correlation is not causation.

      --
      Space game using normal deck of cards: http://BattleCards.org
    2. Re:See that all the time by delinear · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Correlation doesn't imply causation, but it does waggle its eyebrows suggestively and gesture furtively while mouthing 'look over there'. [552]

  9. This treatment may not work, might be dangerous by Omnifarious · · Score: 3, Informative

    Cells do not normally produce telomerase on their own because not producing it protects against cancer. Turning on the gene that makes telomerase is one of the hurdles pre-cancerous cells have to cross on their way to becoming cancerous.

    Also, as someone else pointed out, telomeres are just one aspect of aging. You can induce mice to age prematurely by restricting embryonic expression of telomerase, but that doesn't necessarily mean that mice that age normally will be similarly completely restored by adding it.

    There are a number of degenerative diseases (macular degeneration and probably alzheimers) that happen because of inadequate waste removal. No amount of telomerase is going to cause all the little protein fragments lying around to be magically cleaned up and excreted.

    1. Re:This treatment may not work, might be dangerous by whiteboy86 · · Score: 1

      Typical, a programmer is taking a stab at the biology topic and the tone is very decisive. Next time at least act as an informed observer, using in some low-key phrases, words like "perhaps" or "maybe" when taking outside of your field. Thank you very much.

    2. Re:This treatment may not work, might be dangerous by Omnifarious · · Score: 2

      *chuckle* Is there anything about this that's wrong? Biology, particularly low-level biochemistry is an area of science that I pay a lot of attention to.

      Though, I also take your point, and I will try to have a less decisive tone in the future. I've noticed that people tend to be less questioning than they should of "The Voice Of Authority", and so it's something I try to only use when I'm nearly certain I'm right. But you are correct that this isn't my field and so I should take that into account.

    3. Re:This treatment may not work, might be dangerous by Omnifarious · · Score: 1

      Oh, and another good time to use "The Voice Of Authority" is when everyone is milling around and it's really urgent that something be done right now, and I'm pretty sure that the course of action I have in mind is at least better than doing nothing. But that crops up quite rarely.

    4. Re:This treatment may not work, might be dangerous by kcbnac · · Score: 1

      I didn't study much of biology, so there may be obvious things I'm missing.

      BUT

      If we can turn it on and off again, isn't this a step towards curing cancerous cells? (Telling them to self-terminate, or at least limiting their tree of spawned cells?)

      At least it is proof that we can manipulate the cells at that level, now just to work on the side effects...

    5. Re:This treatment may not work, might be dangerous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What about RTFAs ?
      Both of them discuss the link between telomerase and cancer...

    6. Re:This treatment may not work, might be dangerous by Omnifarious · · Score: 1

      I did RTFA, but I guess I just read it to confirm that they were indeed playing with telomerase in the way I expected from the summary. So I missed the bit about cancer.

      Since a majority of Slashdotters don't RTFA, I think mentioning an important fact that was in the articles isn't bad, and I added some information that wasn't in the articles.

    7. Re:This treatment may not work, might be dangerous by Omnifarious · · Score: 1

      Well, I'm not a biologist, but I do pay a lot of attention to low-level biochemistry articles that come out in various places...

      These mice were genetically engineered to make expression of telomerase contingent on the presence of another enzyme. This means that a switch was added in mice, not that a switch was found in mice that could be used in humans.

      I don't think a cancer treatment lies hidden in here, but I do think a regeneration treatment is possible.

      There are numerous classes of stem cells stored throughout the body. One possible treatment is to find these stores, take a few healthy, non-cancerous, non-DNA damaged cells out of them, treat them with telomerase in-vitro and put the cells with restored telomeres back in the appropriate spots.

      Hopefully the cells with short telomeres would slowly die off over time and the cells with longer telomeres would replace them, and since these cells are the source of new cells for various tissues in the body, it would have the effect of resetting the 'telomere clock' for the whole body.

      I have no clue if this would work. As I said, I'm not a biologist. But it seems plausible to me.

    8. Re:This treatment may not work, might be dangerous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      inadequate waste removal

      Yes, quite right. But with the telomerase problem semi-fixed, this could provide some more time to be working on nano-tech of some sort to target those waste protein structures sitting around doing nothing.
      There are efforts just now on this front, but it isn't the highest priority.

      Stem cells will also eventually help against organ degeneration and weakening.
      Who knows what other weird things will happen as we age longer and longer, how long will livers hold out, or kidneys?
      It is one of the main reasons we are seeing all of these diseases in the first place, the human body has gotten to this stage way too fast and is struggling to deal with all these resources. Sort of like governments attempting to control populations and resources.

    9. Re:This treatment may not work, might be dangerous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is one set of cells that do intentionally produce telomerase. They live in the gonads and make spermtocytes and oocytes depending on which nads you have.

      But yes, there are plenty of diseases that can and will still kill you. Dying is just organ failure. You could be a telomerase immortal, but you will still die of heart failure if you eat a bunch of fatty food. Or have familial high cholesterol, or diabetes, or ... etc. One thing you find in pharmaceutical cell culture: even if you have an immortal cell line, they stop producing your target protein as effectively after a certain number of generations.

    10. Re:This treatment may not work, might be dangerous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The hard part is targeting only the cancerous cells. Right now we use chemotherapy which is the "destroy everything in the area and hope it doesn't kill the patient" approach. On the other hand if it's not thorough enough the tumor could come back.

    11. Re:This treatment may not work, might be dangerous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Did you mean: derisive

    12. Re:This treatment may not work, might be dangerous by sjames · · Score: 1

      There are a lot of unanswered questions, and there is a risk of cancer (or a cancer like process). It may be that periodic treatment (after a thorough screening) will confer the longer life but because it's a one time reset to the telomeres rather than a constant process cancer can be kept in check.

      Nobody even suggested that this would be a panacea, there are many diseases this won't do anything for.

    13. Re:This treatment may not work, might be dangerous by HiThere · · Score: 1

      Many skin cells also repair their teleomeres, as do those lining the gut.

      Basically, any cell line that faces extremely hazardous environmental conditions is designed to reproduce immortally. (Not sure about, say, macrophages or a few other varieties. Not my field.) It has to be. The Hayflick limit (50 reproductions/cell line) is only an average, not a maximum, and some cell lines don't obey it at all.

      The teleomere gizmo was probably evolved as a defense against cancer, though, so any removal of it has to be done cautiously. But note that some cell lines have already had to forgo that particular defense. There *are* others.

      And there are also other problems. E.g.: Mitochondria. Within one body mitochondria tend to accumulate errors that slow them down. (They've got a much higher mutation rate than other parts of the cell...and they reproduce fairly frequently.) One of the functions performed by reproduction is the winnowing of mitochondria so that only those still effective continue. (This is normally done via miscarriages at the stage of only a few cells, so there often isn't even a missed period.) But within the body there's no way to remove the minimally functional mitochondria. And mal-preforming mitochondria tend to emit LOTS of free-radicals.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
  10. Just what we needed by assemblerex · · Score: 2, Insightful

    the Dick Cheneys of the world living to 140...

    1. Re:Just what we needed by andydread · · Score: 1

      ooooh noooooos

    2. Re:Just what we needed by tfranzese · · Score: 1

      There are plenty of unnatural ways to die.

    3. Re:Just what we needed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Dick Cheneys of the world will only be a nuisance when living to 140.
      The Ramanujans of the world would quadruple the scientific throughput of Earth when living healthily to 140.

    4. Re:Just what we needed by YodaYid · · Score: 1

      And the Albert Einsteins, Martin Luther King Jrs, and, hmmm I can't think of anyone else at the moment. But hopefully you get the point ;-)

  11. Reactivating Telomerase? by ThunderBird89 · · Score: 1

    Seriously not a good idea. I, personally, would not like a body-wide cancer.

    Call me back when nanites are developed far enough to repair tissue damage!

    --
    Hyperbole: I use it liberally!
  12. zombie mice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... you have been warned

  13. Simple solution by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 3, Funny

    Only give this to people who do not have sex and therefor no offspring. Slashdot will LIVE FOREVER!!!

    And the living will envy the death (because they got some).

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

    1. Re:Simple solution by AmonTheMetalhead · · Score: 1

      :D You just made my monday ;)

    2. Re:Simple solution by Trebawa · · Score: 1

      Or... gay people. Who get the sex and the lack of offspring!

    3. Re:Simple solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hmm. So you tie the age solution to virginity. As long as you have the first, you get the second. Stray a little, and it's over.

      So much for virgin births. Wait until people start having virgin deaths. The scandals will fly.

      Does that mean rape would be considered murder?

    4. Re:Simple solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ah, but you haven't factored in that the accompanying leaps in biotechnology will let me make MY OWN CLONE!

    5. Re:Simple solution by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      You may joke, but homosexuality IS a sane form of environmentalism. Virtually all of our environmental problems are caused by overpopulation. Over population could be controlled via massive disease. It could be controlled by mass sterilization. It could be controlled by moving people off the planet. OR, it could be controlled by much of the population having sex with people who they cannot have children with. Out of those choices, homosexuality seems the only option that is viable.

      Actually bisexuality is the answer. That way you still have births, you just reduce them dramatically. Heck, we already have the female half of our society on board.

    6. Re:Simple solution by Trebawa · · Score: 1

      I was only half joking, really. I'm glad to be doing my part to slow overpopulation. I have every intention of adopting, even if the technology to do otherwise is available. The problem is that most people aren't homosexual, so this only slightly mitigates the problem.

  14. Title wrong by a_hanso · · Score: 1

    Isn't this more like: "Scientists reverse artificially induced ageing in mice by re-introducing the enzyme that they deactivated to induce the ageing in the first place"?

    Will introducing more telomerase to into naturally ageing patients cause reversal in cell damage or cancer?

  15. Re:It won't necessarily help humans - or normal mi by Nursie · · Score: 2, Funny

    MMmmmmm. Mice bread.

    Goes well with cheese.

  16. Aging reversed? by El+Neepo · · Score: 1

    Sounds like they simply corrected a disease that was purposefully inflicted upon the mice. I don't see this as "Aging reversed" more like "Abnormally quick aging can be corrected."

    I believe the end of the Nature article link agrees. It also points out that shortening telomeres isn't the only thing that causes aging and it's defects.

    That said, this is a good baby step forward.

    1. Re:Aging reversed? by Aphoxema · · Score: 1

      Sounds like they simply corrected a disease that was purposefully inflicted upon the mice. I don't see this as "Aging reversed" more like "Abnormally quick aging can be corrected."

      I believe the end of the Nature article link agrees. It also points out that shortening telomeres isn't the only thing that causes aging and it's defects.

      That said, this is a good baby step forward.

      I'm afraid I read much the same thing; What's shown here isn't particularly age-reversal, it just shows the resilience of cells by fucking with them and then giving back an instrument that they had been deprived of.

      --
      "Most people, I think, don't even know what a rootkit is, so why should they care about it?"
  17. will it make you more stupid too? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    i am not sure i said an intelligent thing until age 30.

  18. This should be called fast-aging cancelled. by g4b · · Score: 1

    Actually Aging was not reversed. It was made faster in the first place. And then telomerase was added, and aging was normal again.

    It's nice. But sometimes it is deactivated for a reason. To stop aging we would have to stop mutating cells. Our cells still would have to divide. Our braincells would still be more or less limited. So we would have to control our tumours while getting more stupid. The biblical 120 max won't be broken any time soon.

    Still, such a news is incredible in a scientific perspective. But for potions of life, please consider your local alchemist or any grail you might find.

  19. I just want ... by preflex · · Score: 1

    I just want to tell you good luck. We're all counting on you.

  20. Then the immortals ascended to the heavans by t0qer · · Score: 4, Interesting

    While I see some folks saying "no one should live forever" let me ask you this... What about space travelers? Don't you think on 100+ year trips, living forever might be a good thing?

  21. Man, by waltew · · Score: 1

    So we are the last generations that will die. That's just great...

  22. Already been done with dolphins by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    They've already done this with dolphins. It involves feeding them seagulls. Unfortunately, the lead scientist was arrested when he stepped across a lion sleeping in the doorway to the lab, after catching a few seagulls.

    The charge: transporting gulls across a staid lion for immortal porpoises.

    Mark Edwards

    1. Re:Already been done with dolphins by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Someone needs to hit you really hard with a two-by-four

    2. Re:Already been done with dolphins by geckoFeet · · Score: 1

      We need a "-1 funny" mod

    3. Re:Already been done with dolphins by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      If it's funny, it deserves a +1.

      Do you mean "-1 not funny"?

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    4. Re:Already been done with dolphins by geckoFeet · · Score: 1

      No. I meant -1 funny. I meant it as a joke. I can explain the concept of "joke" if you like.

  23. Re:It won't necessarily help humans - or normal mi by AliasMarlowe · · Score: 1

    Mice bread

    It stops squeaking and struggling after a minute or two in the toaster. The fur might get stuck in your teeth, though.

    --
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
  24. And in other news... by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

    The stock price of the Umbrella Corporation was up 36 points amid heavy trading as the markets opened this morning...

    1. Re:And in other news... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Umbrela's overvalued. Here's a protip -- buy Union Aerospace instead.

    2. Re:And in other news... by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      I'm too worried about Union Aerospace's potential legal liabilities. They managed to take a surprisingly small one time writedown last fiscal year over the "horrific demonic entities spilling through a portal from hell" incident; but Microsoft's trademark infringment and brand diminishment lawsuit over their use of the "Union Aerospace: Where do you really, really, not want to go today" trademark has the potential to be much harder and more expensive to deal with...

    3. Re:And in other news... by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

      The company will eventually go bankrupt. Once all their employees get ahold of this, they'll be drawing pension benefits forever!

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
  25. Red Mars gene therapy by flurdy · · Score: 1

    So is this the first steps towards the gene therapies in Red Mars books? Finally!
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_trilogy

    --
    My other Sig is very funny.
    1. Re:Red Mars gene therapy by MrQuacker · · Score: 1

      Now we just need a crazy Russian to put it all together into an injectable cure. Although to be honest, living in a worldwide Calcutta for 1000 years would *suck*.

  26. Re:It won't necessarily help humans - or normal mi by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 1

    If scientists can breed humans with mice, creating mice-men, this idea has potential. I think Monty Python even did a skit on this, where perverts dressed up as mice, and went to parties, where they "squeaked" and passed cheese around.

    Definitely an idea that is worthy of a Hollywood B film.

    If the mice bread experiments go wrong, we can always pop them into the toaster.

    --
    Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
  27. Resident Evil by cloakedpegasus · · Score: 1

    T-Virus

  28. To live longer than any man has lived before? by jordanjay29 · · Score: 1

    I think Star Trek had a warning about his one. http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Miri_(episode)

  29. A book by rrey · · Score: 1

    Reminds me a book dealing with the subject of regeneration : "Rollback" Robert J. Sawyer

  30. Kick ass by morikahnx · · Score: 1

    Hey, if this keeps my younger.. longer and adds 100 years to my life.. kick ass. You spend half your life figuring what the hell you are doing... then you spend the other half slowly withering away. I want Leslie Nielson back, dammit!

    1. Re:Kick ass by LUH+3418 · · Score: 1

      I agree. Education takes so long. I'm currently working on a Ph.D. I'll probably be done around 28. I wish I had more time, so I could take things a little slower, enjoy my life more, and also spend even more time learnings about other topics. The perspective of growing old doesn't bring me any comfort. It's just something we all have had to resign ourselves to, thus far... But I honestly would love to have the opportunity to have 4-5 different careers in my life, to try alot of different possibilities, without having to feel any kind of rush.

      Clearly, from the other comments, alot of people see it as wrong and unnatural for people to live indefinitely, because it's never been achieved. It would be a radical change. I honestly think, though, that if we could find a way to keep people young indefinitely, to keep both our bodies and our brains from aging, it might be a good thing. It might indeed imply that we would have to enforce population control, to avoid a population explosion, but is that so bad? It means less children to take care of, which means those children might be better taken care of. It also probably means more educated people, more experts in all fields, lower crime rates, etc. Not to mention... If people are young forever, it means no more old folks to care care of. Society suddenly has a bigger supply of able workers available.

      If you're worried about changing the "natural order of things", then I say, we've already done that, as a species. We have the power to use our intelligence to improve our living conditions. Should we really refrain from doing so? Do you really think it's best for us to simply breed more and more children forever? If we have the power to prevent aging and greatly reduce fatality rates, should we really just do nothing, just so we can keep breeding more children? Should we just let people suffer and die because it's "natural"?

  31. Live forever, or die trying by petes_PoV · · Score: 1

    Maybe it is dangerous, but if you get to (say) 80+ and can only look forward to a few more years with increasing incontinence and decreasing memory (which may even make up for the incontinence) then it's got to be worth a shot. After all, it's not as if you have much to lose. Though your relatives might not appreciate the loss of any expected inheritance, and the nursing homes have a vested interest in it failing, and the whole pension / insurance industry will go broke overnight. However, if it means I could live to be 200, all that's a small price to pay.

    --
    politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
    1. Re:Live forever, or die trying by Omnifarious · · Score: 1

      I think a regeneration treatment is possible with minimal risk. I wrote about it in a different Slashdot reply.

  32. Some cybernetics needed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A purely biological solution can't make humans live forever. Some damage is bound to occur to the genetic copying mechanism even with the cells continually fixing themselves. Somewhere along the way, it would be cheaper to simply transfer the the thing that matters most (the mind or a person's memories) into another body or an android. The parallel is with you continually backing up into bigger and faster media files you made years or decades ago. Still, a more durable body will perhaps lengthen the period between body back-ups.

    1. Re:Some cybernetics needed by Pentium100 · · Score: 1

      Some damage is bound to occur to the genetic copying mechanism even with the cells continually fixing themselves.

      So, have backups of the DNA with error correction on different media (magnetic, optical, flash so that it would be less likely to get corrupt all at once) and have nanobots periodically refresh the DNA in the cells. The DNA is just a gigabyte or so.

      Somewhere along the way, it would be cheaper to simply transfer the the thing that matters most (the mind or a person's memories) into another body or an android.

      But wouldn't that be like creating a copy of me? That is, for some time, there would be two Pentiums, then only the copy would remain - so I would still die, but some other guy who has all my memories would live. OTOH, becoming a cyborg with my original brain intact would be OK.

  33. Just in time.... by couchslug · · Score: 1

    Just in time to rescue the Most Valuable Generation, the Baby Boomers!

    --
    "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
  34. Re:Then the immortals ascended to the heavans by MrQuacker · · Score: 1

    But, in order to get anywhere in space you have to go real fast, and then relativity comes into play.

  35. Spiderman. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In other news. A men is being treated at the Harward Medical School. He was a volunteer in a set of experiments focused on reversing the aging process.

    The man is reported to being quickly growing two more pairs of arms from his back and a second head-like structure in his chest, a process seemingly unstoppable.
    The man tried to commit suicide by shooting at his first head, but to the big surprise of the entire medical and research staff his brain and tissue quickly rebuilt themselves around the bullet hole making the victim appear conscious and in good health again after a short time.

  36. Don't get ahead of yourselves just yet. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Before I head off to work, just like to encourage the /. crowd, if they're not going to RTFA, to at least RTFS. The injections reversed the artificially hastened aging caused by the genetic engineering. Not saying this isn't great, but put things in perspective, aye? Right now, all this is is an expensive and lengthy way to more or less break even.

    Here's the first sentence from the article, in case you don't believe me: "Premature ageing can be reversed by reactivating an enzyme that protects the tips of chromosomes, a study in mice suggests."

  37. Title is misleading by paniq · · Score: 1

    They created mice that lacked an enzyme and later on they added the enzyme. All this proves is that the enzyme is relevant to support healthy growth, and it's absence mimics the symptoms of aging. That would be like stripping someone of his clothes, put him in the cold, give him a blanket and say: "We solved the problem of freezing to death!".

    --
    Do not trust this signature.
  38. Obligatory Cracked article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://www.cracked.com/article_18708_5-reasons-immortality-would-be-worse-than-death.html

  39. Re:Then the immortals ascended to the heavans by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Little do they know there are already a few immortals. Mahabali, Parasuraman, Markandeyan, Vibhishanan, Hanuman, Ashwattaman (cursed with eternal life without love for killing the Panchalas when they were asleep and for the attempted foeticide of Parikshit), Vyasan.

    --
    sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
  40. Senescence != immortality by Gopal.V · · Score: 2, Insightful
    I don't want to live forever. I'd rather die eventually, but the years I'm alive, I want to live them fully.

    I don't want to age. I don't care if my life ends at 80 or 90 or 150, I want those years, every last one of them, to be spent without sitting in a hospice as a drooling vegetable. I'd rather get tired of living than spend most of my life on the sliding slope away from the heights of my youth.

    When they come to take me away when I'm 150, I'll say good bye to the cruel world, the cruel bedsheets and even the cruel curtains with some sort of tassels.

    And as for the population problem, if I was sure I'd live till eternity, I might not even care too much about the propagation of the species (see, I don't really see why Wowbagger had to date Trillian).

    1. Re:Senescence != immortality by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Me, I want to live at least until the zombiepocalypse. Seriously, who wants to miss that?

    2. Re:Senescence != immortality by AmonTheMetalhead · · Score: 1

      That i can agree with.

    3. Re:Senescence != immortality by Thing+1 · · Score: 1

      You won't get tired of living if you're forever young.

      --
      I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
  41. gravity is a bitch by mgabrys · · Score: 0

    How does it fare against the earth's pull? Bodies may regenerate, but overall you're still fighting gravity. I'd like to see more details on this when they go to clinical trials (and don't forget wear and tear - bones would be my interest - I know friends who are in their late 30s and early 40s getting new hip sockets).

  42. Imagine... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Imagine a world were..

    -There is no age of retirement, so you have to work for the rest of eternity.
    -The same young looking politicians run for office again and again, without allowing newer blood into political parties.

    I'm all ready for eternal life, but the guys in charge would be first in line. What could go wrong?

  43. Don't worry... by denzacar · · Score: 1

    It is not very likely that there will ever be found a cure for the bullet through the head condition.
    You will always have your way out.

    Rest of us on the other hand would like to continue with this endless party called life for as long as possible.
    Heck... Just all that culture out there is worth the ticket.
    Not to mention all those humans, all that planet, all that space etc.

    --
    Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
  44. When it's possible, it's going to happen. by Silpher · · Score: 2, Insightful

    There are a lot off people with the wealth, means and connections to make it happen when it's possible. So wether it should or not is not really the question it's more how the world is going to be when people will be able to live maybe 500 years or more. Sure the future is very hard to predict but just imagine people could live longer. Maybe they would actually start to learn to think not only of the short term pleasures and goals but as they have more years to live will actually take more care of the environment. Living much longer means a way better view on environmental impacts of short term actions and you have to. You have to live in your own mess a lot longer. Also the wish to have childeren now decreases with live expectancy just imagine people living 500+ years having kids only after 100 years? Perfect! Enough time to plan living space, housing, environmental issue's etc. Sure there are negative impacts aswell but when this anti aging pill comes on the market I'll take it.

    1. Re:When it's possible, it's going to happen. by Courageous · · Score: 1

      I find it very unlikely that very many people at all would have repeat cycles of having children. I find it more likely than not that if women were given the medical possibility of having children "whenever they want," as opposed to "you better get fucking to it by 40," then they would put it off quite a long time while they focused on their careers. There could also be a vastly increased population of folks who don't breed at all, as evidenced by current trends. Once this phenomenology kicks in, you'll have to start looking at death rates from unnatural causes and asking yourself if the Immortals might need to be incentivized to please breed.

      Assuming I am right about Immortals seldom having batches in cycles like you say, try the following elementary exercise:

      Start with an Immortal population of size N.

      Assume all members match and have 2 children. This results in the next generation population, size M.

      What's the population growth rate?

      Answer: approximately 100%.

      However, now take the old generation, and new generation together (N+M, and assume that only M breeds).

      This produces a population growth rate of now only 50%.

      These calculations trend to 0% effective growth, before taking into account delayed child-bearing, indefinitely deferred child bearing, death from unnatural causes, etc etc.

      C//

    2. Re:When it's possible, it's going to happen. by Have+Brain+Will+Rent · · Score: 1

      I get what you're saying but unfortunately most people already have time horizons, and going in the other direction memories, far shorter than their current lifespans permit. That's how politicians are able to get re-elected.

      --
      The tyrant will always find a pretext for his tyranny - Aesop
    3. Re:When it's possible, it's going to happen. by Silpher · · Score: 1

      Thats very true, Humans have terrible memory and judgement over time. Countless tests have been done to prove this. Like: "Accept this 20 dollar now or 22 dollar tommorow" over 80% chose now instead of tommorow then if they asked people "accept this 20 dollar in one month or 21 dollar in one month and one day" the majority chose the day after one month. Economists were baffeled by this unrationalistic behavior.. but this is just how humans operate. It's too bad that if extreme Longevity will be possible just a dose of natural evolution to counter this problem will probably be to slow. Concerning our babaristic behavior and nuclear arms.

  45. Mental aging? by hcdejong · · Score: 1

    Reversing changes to the body is all well and good, but will the newly-unaged mice still yell at the youngsters to get off their lawn?

  46. Chill out... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Chill out guys, it's not like the medicine will be given to everybody. Expect the elites to live forever, while the rest of us will just become "the mortal slaves".
    If you think these days are shitty, imagine how it will be having a group of people living forever and ruling the rest. They'll just become another species and treat us like inferior animals.

    Come to think of it... it's not that different today, except for the part with "living forever" :|.

  47. Science will discover immortality! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  48. Re:Then the immortals ascended to the heavans by Dhalka226 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I think 100+ years spent in a tin can with other people is something that has such an incredibly high chance of causing extreme psychological issues that I would not agree to send them, volunteers or not. And it raises a whole host of ethical issues as well, such as whether the travelers would have some right to kill one another if they perceived a threat or what to do with some immortal space traveling hero should he try to return to society and be utterly unable to reintegrate, similar to how a lot of ex-felons are when they are released.

    Unless we're talking Starship Enterprise-style accommodations here, I would do everything in my power to stop trips like that from ever happening.

  49. Re:It won't necessarily help humans - or normal mi by Culture20 · · Score: 1

    You mean that Monty Python started the furries? Who knew?

  50. Whateer you do... by LoganTeamX · · Score: 1

    Don't tell Emperor Palpatine. That crazy old bugger does want to live forever! ... Hang on a sec, I have a 800 year-old little green guy with a cane at my door, asking if I think I'm a Jedi or not....

    --
    One of the 187.
  51. psychology by Tom · · Score: 1

    If extremely long lives are becoming more and more realistic, maybe it is time to start thinking about how humans will cope with it. Most of us never heal of the scars of our experiences, and let them accumulate. By the end of our lives, we are pretty much wrecked, full of guilt, pain, set in our ways and done with learning. Our entire society is built around this concept that you start learning about the world, then you go about being productive, then you get a few years of relaxing and living off the results of your work.

    Psychologically, but also socially, we are nowhere near ready to dealing with any significant number of people living a very long life.

    --
    Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
  52. We have enough youth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How about a fountain of SMART?

    1. Re:We have enough youth by HeckRuler · · Score: 1

      That comes with age.

  53. Errm, thanks but WTF by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    well, the key to any applied technology apart from the obvious cost benefit decisions at hand is a simple evaluation of its practicality and feasibility. Is something like this feasible for the wider population of this planet? the answer must quite simply be no, as we have so many underlying issues in our current day to day living that'd need to be resolved for this to work. It would collapse within itself eventually. I reminds me of Huxley's brave new world to be quite honest. The crap we'd enable to people to do to themselves is beyond my imagination.

    however, someone mentioned that it might be useful as an applied technology, i.e. for space travel. Another problem there is though we have not the slightest idea what psychological effects prolonged isolation may have. The crew might end up tearing each other to bits before they even reached their destination.

    As for the experiment itself, I am by no means a molecular biologist or even a hobby biologist. but what appears strange to me is the fact that the ageing process itself was artificially induced by telomere shortening. Not exactly what you'd call the natural ageing process. So, the real question is would this technique work applied to the regular ageing process? the answer, most likey, is bound to be NO, as, as someone pointed out previously, the ageing process in itself is far more complex and dependant on other factors which would not be addressed by the above method.

  54. Re:Then the immortals ascended to the heavans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    given current technology, old age is unlikely to kill our space travelers. They are much more likely to die from lack of food, cosmic radiation, and ship malfunctions. On top of this, death would help stave off boredom. Imagine being trapped in a small vessel for your entire life, then multiply that by however many life spans you want to live. Might be better to constantly replace the population to allow new generations to explore what's already old and boring for you.

  55. Lawl. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That's such a typical objection to approaches towards immortality. It always amazes me how people like you fail to look ahead and consider that, if we've reached the point in our technological advantage where its possible to manipulate this one highly important aspect of biology, don't you think we would take care of the superabundance of stupid, sick and homeless people by, oh, say fixing them?

    But if you want to die, be my guest. One less hippy to stand in the way of actual human progress.

  56. What are the side affects? by Joe+The+Dragon · · Score: 1

    What are the side affects?

    Do you need keep taking more and more or you die real quick?

    The army may want to test stuff like this.

  57. Don't worry by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    don't worry too much about population explosion if we ever create immortal humans. i'm sure the immortals will have a penchant for killing mortals and using them as slaves. whatever them means, the immortals will make sure that mortal population is kept in check :)

  58. reverse artificial aging by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

    OK, let me see if I got this straight. They bred some mice that age prematurely, then they developed a therapy that reverses the premature aging and this is supposed to be a treatment for natural aging? Come back to me when they use this treatment on mice (or some other animal) that has naturally aged and it has the same effect, as it is, this is an interesting study about possible avenues to be explored but nothing to get particularly excited about at this time.

    --
    The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
  59. use it on pepel with 100+ year prison sentences by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    use it on people with 100+ year prison sentences

  60. procrastination by nten · · Score: 1

    In highly developed countries people are already having too few children. We aren't replacing the workforce and are having to borrow from developing countries. In addition to having fewer children people are waiting until later in life to have them. If people knew there wasn't a time limit, a point past which they could not have children, they would wait even longer. I suspect that in the first world this problem would solve itself. Providing such treatment in developing countries would probably cause Malthusian collapse in short order. Got to get them 2^10 TV channels, and only then provide the cure for aging.

    --
    refactor the law, its bloated, confusing and unmaintainable.
  61. Anonymous Coward by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    pill me up, bitch!

  62. great, when can we start drinking the new shakes by hesaigo999ca · · Score: 1

    I cant wait till they get it in a protein shake form, and i can live till 300 years old, we will be the new age elves, living for 3 or 4 hundred years....!

  63. Humans are not mice... by mario_grgic · · Score: 1

    Now we just need to figure out how to turn people into mice and we have elixir of youth. Unless the young mice rebel first, and take over the world.

    --
    As the island of our knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance.
  64. Re:Then the immortals ascended to the heavans by bodan · · Score: 1

    Unless we're talking Starship Enterprise-style accommodations here, I would do everything in my power to stop trips like that from ever happening.

    Really? Do you, by any chance, consider such a voyage worse than, say, living in squalor and famine and violence and disease, and then dying from something silly like diarrhea or horrible like gang rape?

    If you don’t, how come you’re posting on Slashdot instead of doing everything in your power to stop that from happening? (News Flash: Everything I’ve described, and worse, is happening *right now* to hundreds of thousands of people.)

    If you do, then... hmm. Not sure what to say. Can you perhaps explain why?

    --
    "I think I am a fallen star. I should wish on myself."
  65. Misleading headline -does NOT reverse agin by gurps_npc · · Score: 1
    1. They created a genetic disorder that SIMULATES aging in mice by affecting telemerase, a major part, but not the only part, of the aging process.

    2. They then waited for the YOUNG mice to develop symptoms of their genetic disease that simulated aging.

    3. They then cured the DISEASE they had created.

    Calling this curing aging is like announcing that you can raise the dead by administering adrenaline after artificially stopping someone's heart.

    Call us when you can reverse aging in any creature that has not first been artifically aged. Till then, you are just blowing smoke up your own butt.

    --
    excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
    1. Re:Misleading headline -does NOT reverse agin by NoSig · · Score: 1

      you are just blowing smoke up your own butt.

      Could you elaborate on how that is done?

  66. Watching Trees Grow... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Reminds me of a Peter F. Hamilton novella. Prolonged lifespans become the province of the wealthy dynasties, and Joe Public (the "Shorts" in the story) are 2nd class citizens, serving the power & wealth of the dynasties. It's the American dream... and already the case with respect to health and life expectancy - and this would make it a thousand times worse.

    (However, being honest, I'd take it if I could - assuming it has the same effect on mental abilities as it does on the physical side of things. Plus, still being able to surf beyond the age of 100 would be so cool...)

  67. Its just the obvious choice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There's no discussion here, I thinks. Anyone who is able to live with perfect mental and physical health, ad infinitum, is going to do so. At least until someone proves conclusively that heaven exists.

  68. If its true by gkelleway · · Score: 1

    There goes the pension system down the swanny!

  69. The Boat of a Million Years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This reminds me of one of my favorite books, by Poul Anderson, "Boat of a Million Years". It follows the lives of 11 individuals whose DNS allows them to be immortal with respect to aging. They can still be injured just like anyone else. It starts around 300BC and goes into the future. Much of human history is portrayed through the eyed of those who don't age. It also goes into what happens to the world when this gift is finally shared with everyone.

  70. And then... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They all got cancer.

    The end.

  71. The Boat of a Million Years by Mortenson · · Score: 1

    This reminds me of one of my favorite books, by Poul Anderson, "Boat of a Million Years". It follows the lives of 11 individuals whose DNS allows them to be immortal with respect to aging. They can still be injured just like anyone else. It starts around 300BC and goes into the future. Much of human history is portrayed through the eyed of those who don't age. It also goes into what happens to the world when this gift is finally shared with everyone.

  72. Less Aging, but More Cancer by CrimsonBlue · · Score: 1

    Cells are programmed to die after a certain number of divisions as one way of combating the development of cancer cells. You might live longer with this treatment, but you'll have more cells that are susceptible to becoming cancer cells.

    1. Re:Less Aging, but More Cancer by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      Sure, but that method, while effective is like curing a cold with a bullet. The question is, which is worse, dying of cancer at 150 or dying of old age at 75? I'm not convinced that the answer would be the same for everyone.

  73. so what would be tbe life expectancy by goffster · · Score: 1

    Of someone who could not die of old age?

    When would all the chances of accidental death finally add up and kill you ?
    (not to mention all the relatives whom you are boring with 500 years worth of stories)

    What accident prone activities would you give up ?

  74. this is a diseased mouse, not truly an old mouse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What they need to do is test this gene therapy on a OLD mouse. Not a geneticly altered diseased mouse.

  75. Not really immortal by kellyb9 · · Score: 1

    Immortal would imply that you cannot die. In this instance, even if people were able to sustain life forever, it doesn't necessarily mean that everyone is going to live forever. People take stupid risks and if they were "immortal" they'd probably take dumber risks. So ultimately, only the smartest would survive.

  76. nooooo by luther349 · · Score: 1

    last thing we need is some age stopping or reversing drug. it wont be used for any good if one ever worked. only the ritch dickheads would get some extra years. and they cant die fast enough. but they only stopped part of the aging. so many other factors come in like altimers etc. no human could live like 300 years. even if you stopped your body from ageing the brain brakes down at around 100 years if your Lucky earlier for many others. heck are hartes are doomed to fail at around 65+. so stopping the ageing look is only a small part of the problem. even if it prevents those can you imagine the resource issues if people sudnly all live to be 150+. yes life is short heck i lived half mine. and wee would like extra years but it would throw off so much if billions suddnly lived 2 or 3 times longer.

  77. Amazing! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    With all these medical advances, mice are going to rule the world some day!

  78. Retirement Age by seven+of+five · · Score: 1

    In other news, retirement age has been raised to 250, though term limits are still an open question.

  79. melange by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    so they discovered melange?

  80. A little more telomerase please... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    God has one-upped even the worst of programmers in writing the most obscene incomprehensible spaghetti code possible but it is still a pretty cool product.

  81. I, for one by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I, for one, rebel against our new Immortal Mice Overlords (and subsequently, prove my own mortality)!

  82. Truth is Stranger Than Sci-Fi. by cupofjoe · · Score: 1

    Minor footnote: author Kim Stanley Robinson wrote presciently about this technology in his Mars trilogy (specifically, "Green Mars", I believe.)

    --joe.

  83. about the overpopulation argument by Luke_2010 · · Score: 1

    I'm so amused at some comments pointing at overpopulation as the main argument against life extension. It's exactly like saying you aren't buying into Information Technology because you won't be doing the maths by yourself so you could fall of exercise! It's a stupid argument. Making people life forever is an hard task, making them sterile is way easier. Don't you think that, once biotechnologies become sophisticated enough to enable a sort of "genetic immortality" we'll all be asked to choose between that and breeding? Do you remember what's the point of having childs? Because we die. And we die so that our biology can improves through succeeding generations. We don't need that anymore. We can improve ourselves in other ways. We don't need to die. We don't need to bother about overpopulation. That's just an excuse to avoid real in-topic debating.

  84. Why do I have to keep saying... by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

    There has never been a better time to be a mouse!

    --
    I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
  85. Re:Then the immortals ascended to the heavans by thesandtiger · · Score: 1

    Or heck, even just "living in an isolated small town with maybe, at best, 1000 neighbors, for your entire life" - which is basically what most human beings have done for the entirety of human history.

    But this is beside the point. By the time we could create a craft capable of keeping even a single human being alive with even spartan living conditions, for over a century of space-travel, we would have had to develop so many other technologies that this kind of thing simply wouldn't be that challenging to handle. Hell, by the time we could even create a probe capable of lasting for 100 years with basic *computer* systems on board and the propulsion necessary to get it to go to wherever it is we'd be sending humans on 100+ year trips, we'd have beaten so many problems that this would simply be an extra check-mark on our to-do list.

    --
    Since I can't tell them apart, I treat all ACs as the same person.
  86. otherwise the nerd zombie does this. by tempest69 · · Score: 1

    I reserve the right to terminate myself before the zombie hordes start devouring my flesh.

    http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1765#comic

  87. Re:It won't necessarily help humans - or normal mi by mldi · · Score: 1

    Mice bread without an enzyme age prematurely. Injecting them with the enzyme reversed this process. This does not necessarily mean that injecting normal mice with more of the enzyme will have any affect on their ageing.

    That was the feeling I got from the article. The summary should be something closer "Premature aging effects found to be reversible in mice".

    --
    If you aren't suspicious of your government's actions, you aren't doing your job as a responsible citizen.
  88. Obligatory XKCD by meustrus · · Score: 1
    --
    I sometimes ask revealing, often ignorant-seeming questions. Maybe they're harder to answer than you think.
  89. I am old too! by antdude · · Score: 1

    I need some of these. :P Wait, will this work for ants?

    --
    Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
  90. Re:It won't necessarily help humans - or normal mi by hemigi · · Score: 1
  91. Desire for eternal life & religion by Beerdood · · Score: 1

    I find the number of "why would you want to live forever?" comments surprisingly high for a slashdot thread. I see a large proportion of anti-religious posts on here so I would imagine the majority of posters here don't believe in some sort of afterlife - which would give you even more incentive to want to live forever (or at least until you choose when to go). I'm sure the idea of death is a lot more comforting to those that believe that life actually isn't over for them when their physical body dies.

    I don't believe in any sort of after life and death terrifies the shit out of me. Reading this article provides a happy glimpse into the future, and may eventually provide a way to significantly extend life. I can maybe understand why though - people in chronic physical pain or paralyzed or physically or mentally crippled to a point where life isn't the least bit enjoyable wouldn't want to extend their life any further, and perhaps the only reason they're still living is because they can't quite end it themselves. Maybe if you're in your 50's or 60's you start to get more medical problems and pain and begin to think "I wouldn't want to live like this for another 100 years". But for me, there's way too much to do - cultures, languages, instruments, travel etc... to fill in for a few hundred years.

    --
    Global warming and other natural disasters are a direct effect of the shrinking number of pirates - Gospel of the FSM
  92. Easier: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Head in a Jar.

  93. What are we doing tomorrow night? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Are the mice named "Pinkie" and "The Brain"?

  94. Re:Then the immortals ascended to the heavans by t0qer · · Score: 1

    I really wish I had mod points for you, because apparently whoever the mods are don't understand that you're referencing gods that according to scripture, were once human, obtained immortality for their good deeds and ascended. I don't see how that's offtopic to this discussion.

  95. Re:Then the immortals ascended to the heavans by t0qer · · Score: 1

    If we have the technology to selectively erase memories (it was posted on slash a few weeks back) then everyday could be a new day for our intrepid explorers. There's other ways to make the trip less psychologically damaging. If we're at the point where we're erasing memories, then maybe we're also at the point where we can slow down our internal perception of time. With our perception of time slowed down, a year could move by in seconds. For that matter, do people even have to be awake the entire time? (suspended animation)

  96. Who would control this elixir? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If/when this or something equivalent is found to work, what price will a pharma company with a monopoly on the drug charge? Will only rich afford it? I can't see it being included in my health plan notwithstanding my "inalienable right to life..."

  97. Re:Then the immortals ascended to the heavans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Personally I'd just play nethack the entire trip....bound to finally escape with that damned amulet after playing that long...

    though my "bones" file collection would be enormous...

  98. ouch! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The scientific research cited by the Guardian does not support these sensationalist claims and the Guardian knows this. But they don’t give a damn because sensationalism sells – big time! The Guardian knows that sloppy, idiotic bloggers and news organizations across the web will regurgitate anything they see without hardly the slightest attempt at fact checking. http://singularityhub.com/2010/11/30/harvard-scientists-reverse-the-aging-process-in-mice-total-bullsht/

  99. Do you really think doctors want to cure aging? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This stuff was proposed by a number of well-educated science fiction writers back in the seventies. How come it has taken so long? Answer: because it would not have made money for the medical providers. They make more bucks treating the problems of aging, from wrinkles to cancer, than they could ever make from keeping people young. Consider: in one mile on a street in Las Vegas there are fourteen cancer clinics, each of which makes over 40 million a year, with some of them bringing in 400 million or more. How do you make that much money by reversing the process of aging, making people less likely to get sick or get the diseases associated with aging, such as arthritis, cancer, and s0o on? Aging makes doctors, hostpitals and their stockholders and backers (read INSURANCE COMPANIES) rich. So long as our medical system is based on money, there will be no relief. Mankind is about to Darwin itself out, unless it moves off-planet and resolves these problems.

  100. Re:It won't necessarily help humans - or normal mi by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Once again, this discovery will not save you from the other processes associated with aging which lead to cancer and eventually death. This is ONLY regarding the telomere shortening aspect of aging. It has nothing to do with the cell repair processes which also prevent cancer and premature aging.

    How ironic would it be for someone to get this treatment and think they were going to live forever, only to have deleterious mutations in their telomerase codons result in them aging anyways.

    Biological human beings cannot live forever. It is impossible. Quit dreamin' ya lunk-heads.