Chrome Does Have a Caps-Lock Key After All

Meshach writes "Amidst all the angst about Google taking away the caps lock key from Chrome it now appears that is not the case. With one small change any user can change the Modifier Key from a Search key to a Caps Lock key. Peace has been restored..." If there must be such a thing as a Caps Lock key on conventional keyboards, I wish it could be banished (along with the Insert/Delete pair) to a hard-to-fumble-upon switch on the bottom of the keyboard or laptop.

Comments

delete key? what?

[citylivin]

You dont use the delete key? how do you delete files? right click?!?

You do know timothy, that backspace is not delete right?

Re:delete key? what?

[wizardforce]

There's nothing wrong with the delete key. The problem is that insert is so very close to the delete key that it is easy to hit delete on accident.

Re:delete key? what?

[bigstrat2003]

Yeah, I was gonna say... you can take my delete key when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers.

Re:delete key? what?

[snowraver1]

Well I don't know about mere mortals, but I use a command line every time, and always make up some crazy regular expression to do it just so I can show off my maaaad skillz.

But seriously, I use all the keys on the keyboard, except some of the F# keys. IF you want to talk about useless keys, let's talk about the 'context menu key' that is located beside the right windows key. That is a useless key. Is there really someone out there that runs a windows desktop and does not use a mouse or lacks the ability to perform a right click?

Re:delete key? what?

[Nerdfest]

I run into the very occasional software package where pressing 'insert' does not put the damn thing in overstrike mode. If I want to replace text, I'll highlight it. It's not even overstrike mode that's really the problem, it's how easy it is to accidentally activate something that's so rarely desired.

Re:delete key? what?

[BenoitRen]

It's the reverse for me. The Insert key is so close to the Delete key that I sometimes hit it by accident. What does anyone need the Insert key for?

Re:delete key? what?

[jmorris42]

> IF you want to talk about useless keys, let's talk about the 'context menu key' that is located beside the right windows key.

Useless keys are very valuable if you think outside the box. Map it to a compose key. Or use it as a special key for things like virtual machines instead of having to make do with chording a bunch of the buckybits. Of course if one is stuck on stupid (i.e. Windows) then there probably isn't much use for a useless key.

Re:delete key? what?

[h4rr4r]

Get a Man's keyboard. I never have that problem on my Model Ms.

Re:delete key? what?

[snowraver1]

Rename a file - Use F2.
properties/file permissions - Alt+Enter.
I see your point though. Most common commands already have shortcuts, but for the uncommon it might be useful. I'll have to try it out.

Re:delete key? what?

[h4rr4r]

Context Menu key? Windows key?

What sort of odd thing are you using?
Sounds like you need a better keyboard.

Re:delete key? what?

[HeronBlademaster]

Shift+Insert is sometimes easier than Ctrl+V for pasting stuff, but I can't think of any other reason I use the key.

Re:delete key? what?

[jmorris42]

> What does anyone need the Insert key for?

You poor deprived fool. Ins toggles between insert and overstrike in Vi/Vim. Use it most days. You obviously need better tools.

Re:delete key? what?

[SEE]

There's no such thing as a useless key; there's only a key you haven't properly remapped in order to exploit. (For Windows NT 4/2000/XP/Vista/7, hunt down use KeyTweak and the Microsoft Keyboard Layout Creator.)

Re:delete key? what?

[Fizzol]

How else can I do loopty loops in my Flying Machine in WoW? And no, assigning Pitch Up to another key doesn't count.

Re:delete key? what?

[h4rr4r]

Why not use i and s?
Less reaching that way.

Yes, I do use Vim every work day and often at home.

Re:delete key? what?

[RobertM1968]

Get a Man's keyboard. I never have that problem on my Model Ms.

Same here... :-) The IBM Model M: The World's Greatest PC Keyboard!!!

Re:delete key? what?

[Burdell]

I map the Windows logo key to Meta, and the other Windows key (context menu?) to Compose. I get an extra modifier for keyboard shortcuts, and I can easily type those funny characters like and ü.

Re:delete key? what?

[Architect_sasyr]

Your proposal is acceptable.

Wait... you didn't mean that sort of MiB?

Re:delete key? what?

[jmorris42]

> Why not use i and s? Less reaching that way.

And reach even more to get to Esc to get between insert and command mode? On a modern keyboard you can live in insert mode most of the time since movement, insert/delete, etc. all have hard keys. The embedded movement keys were the bees' knees on an ancient terminal lacking in cursor keys but we have better stuff now.

Re:delete key? what?

[h4rr4r]

My oldest is a 1990 1391401, still the daily work one, but I really want a 1986 one with the metal AT to PS2 converter.

Re:delete key? what?

[pookemon]

Yeah - when you only have one finger on each hand, and the torn muscles in your right shoulder prevent you from moving your right hand to the left, I can see how Ctrl+V would be harder than Shift+Insert.

Maybe if you are using a 20+ year old legacy system Shift+Insert would be useful, but beyond that....?

Re:delete key? what?

[RobertM1968]

Shift F10... works just as well, and since near the "beginning of time" (GUI/Windows/OS.2 speaking). It's the reason I despise new keyboards with their extra keys (and reduced spacebar sizes). Any decent typist is more than capable of hitting CTRL-ESC or Shift-F10 or the rest of the pre-existing key combinations. Though, yes, I do understand the benefit to the "not so savvy" computer user, or to the newer generation of computer users who don't realize that virtually all this stuff has had keyboard shortcuts for ages. So, to each their own. That aside, I do hate some of the newer programs where they have decided to forgo enabling keyboard shortcuts.

Re:delete key? what?

[h4rr4r]

How do you need a context key for ls and cd?

Re:delete key? what?

[pookemon]

Buy a Logitech Wave keyboard then. The "Insert" is in the row of keys that normall holds the Print Screen, Scrlk and Pause keys and the Delete is in it's usual position (but is much larger).

Re:delete key? what?

[HeronBlademaster]

If you're using a Linux terminal (or an ssh session in PuTTY or something), Ctrl+V doesn't paste (for the same reason that Ctrl+C does not copy), but Shift+Insert does.

Re:delete key? what?

[phyrexianshaw.ca]

I'm surprised you didn't have 50 people say to you: "uhhhh, you drag it to the trash, DUH!"

Re:delete key? what?

[h4rr4r]

Honestly I just got used to it and can hit escape without looking, and not insert. I think because I use command mode so much.

If you use firefox, I highly recommend vimperator.

Re:delete key? what?

[Hatta]

You dont use the delete key? how do you delete files?

rm

Re:delete key? what?

[sexconker]

It's the reverse for me. The Insert key is so close to the Delete key that I sometimes hit it by accident. What does anyone need the Insert key for?

Hey guys, scroll lock and pause/break are useless!
Also, this control key? What's the point of that?!

Protip: Every key on the keyboard is useful. Just because you and your programs don't make use of a key doesn't mean you should have any input about the layout of my input devices.

Real talk: Got Excel? Click a cell, use the arrow keys. Hit scroll lock. Click a cell, use the arrow keys. HOLY SHIT A FUNCTION FOR A KEY YOU DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT. (Might work in Calc. I wouldn't know, since I'm not a masochist.)

Re:delete key? what?

[h4rr4r]

Why do you want to take your hand from the keyboard?

Vi and Emacs are not word processors, they are text editors. Word is a tool for the feeble of mind in comparison, it lacks many of the more powerful and fast commands either of those are capable of.

Re:delete key? what?

[RobertM1968]

I am lacking the converter for my oldest (and use a generic one)... but it's a 1986 model with the original black AT cable) - it's "birthdate label" is in a pic in our blog post. I had an older one (16 days older) which I gave to my mom with a new computer - somewhere around 2 decades ago. She's went through 5 computers... same keyboard. :-)

Most of my other ones are a bit younger. This one (that I type on now) was born on Feb 5, 1996 in the UK (my only UK keyboard). A few other Model M's and three M13's in the mix (all with non-working Trackpoint IIs - ugh!!!).

Re:delete key? what?

[Dracos]

I use Shift-Insert almost religiously, and don't use Ctrl-V unless I have to.

What's evil about the insert key is that editors don't have an option to disable the insert/overwrite toggle behavior.

Re:delete key? what?

[nine-times]

If you think the "context menu" key is useless, can I assume you've never had to navigate Windows on a computer where the mouse is missing or broken? I never plan on using a windows machine without a mouse, but I have had several situations where I was stuck without a functioning mouse, and some developer(Microsoft or someone else) stuck some very important function in a context menu.

Re:delete key? what?

[abigor]

This is particularly true if you map caps lock to escape...and thus we go full circle.

Re:delete key? what?

[KingAlanI]

+1 Informative. I'll have to try that. The relatively few times I've used *nix, that *has* made it harder to work in the terminal.

Re:delete key? what?

[HeronBlademaster]

Agreed. All editors should provide that option.

Re:delete key? what?

[hedwards]

Most keyboards have 3 extra buttons that are mostly annoying. The two Win keys and the menu key. The menu key is generally right between the right alt and right win key.

Personally, it doesn't bother me as much as the left win key. Which was seemingly placed there to ensure that if you miss the ctrl key that you'll end up causing all sorts of havoc. I know you can adjust that, but what kind of mental midget thinks that having a key that can snap you out of a full screen program placed right there is a good idea.

Re:delete key? what?

[h4rr4r]

Crazy talk, capslock is to be mapped to crtl. That is the one true correct keyboard layout. You can then make crtl capslock or if you must esc.

Re:delete key? what?

[h4rr4r]

Unicomp makes new buckling spring ones, and clickkeyboards.com sells Model Ms. I think the quality of the unicomp boards is closer to the lexmark made Model Ms than the IBM ones, but they are still better than 99.9% of all keyboards sold today.

 

Re:delete key? what?

[h4rr4r]

clickykeyboards.com, is what I meant.

Re:delete key? what?

[h4rr4r]

Like I said get a better keyboard. Model Ms are nice and free of such things.

Re:delete key? what?

[joaommp]

"If there must be such a thing as a Caps Lock key on conventional keyboards, I wish it could be banished (along with the Insert/Delete pair) to a hard-to-fumble-upon switch on the bottom of the keyboard or laptop."

Sorry, I have never been so pissed of in my /. life and I've got to say: "timothy, you're an idiot".

People that don't use the whole keyboard and key combos have no idea how much productivity they are throwing away. That's one of the thing I hate about mac keyboards and Apple's inability to understand that people have a limited number of fingers.

Re:delete key? what?

[moonbender]

Shift-Ctrl-C and -V usually work in X terminals, though.

Re:delete key? what?

[icebraining]

Now the windows key, on the other hand...why do we need two of those?!

It's the "special key" in Awesome (a window manager), used to switch between tags and such. Leaves Alt free for application related functionality.

Re:delete key? what?

[Cougar Town]

Just my personal preference, but I'd prefer to press shift with my left hand and hit insert with my right, rather than try to get the fingers on my left hand into the right position to press shift-ctrl-v. But that's just me, and it's a good example of why having the choice of these different keys is a good thing.

Re:delete key? what?

[jrumney]

What does anyone need the Insert key for?

It is useful sometimes when editing tabular data. Probably I use it deliberately about as frequently as I hit it by accident.

Re:delete key? what?

[arth1]

What's evil about the insert key is that editors don't have an option to disable the insert/overwrite toggle behavior.

Another good reason to use nvi instead of vim.

Re:delete key? what?

[TheLink]

When dealing with unixy stuff, I use ctrl-insert for copy and shift-insert for paste.

Using ctrl-c and ctrl-v as copy and paste will just cause too much problems in those scenarios.

Re:delete key? what?

[DrZib]

Exactly as I was thinking. Maybe he's a OS X user without the num-keys keyboard. Even on my Mac, I couldn't live without my insert/delete keys.

Re:delete key? what?

[Kozz]

"If there must be such a thing as a Caps Lock key on conventional keyboards, I wish it could be banished (along with the Insert/Delete pair) to a hard-to-fumble-upon switch on the bottom of the keyboard or laptop."

Sorry, I have never been so pissed of in my /. life and I've got to say: "timothy, you're an idiot".

People that don't use the whole keyboard and key combos have no idea how much productivity they are throwing away. That's one of the thing I hate about mac keyboards and Apple's inability to understand that people have a limited number of fingers.

Additionally, those of us accustomed to working with *nix operating systems know that CTRL-INS and SHIFT-INS are handy combinations for copy & paste, especially when you don't want to actually send CTRL characters to the terminal. And they work in Windows, too. Speaking of which... Timothy, what would you recommend as an alternative to the 'three-finger salute'?

Re:delete key? what?

[arth1]

Just use nvi or another true vi clone instead, i.e. one that which uses an insert command on the line buffer instead of an insert mode on the screen buffer.

Re:delete key? what?

[arth1]

CTRL-[ works just fine -- no stretching required.

Re:delete key? what?

[arth1]

Who here can honestly say that they've used SysRq for SysRq

1: The last month.
2: The last last year.
3: At all.

(And no, Linux' "Magic SysRq" doesn't count -- that's really the capturable Alt+SysRq key combination, not the uninterruptible SysRq.)

Or use Return and Enter for two different things, for that matter?

Re:delete key? what?

[arth1]

... or you could just use "mv"

But seriously, when you've already moved your hand over to the mouse or keypad to select files, it doesn't matter much. Whether you use F2, menu-m or just click once more before switching to typing makes little difference.

Re:delete key? what?

[arth1]

rm

Heretic. rm is a kitchen sink overkill for deleting files. That's what unlink is for.

Next you're going to tell me you use ed where red would do just fine.

Re:delete key? what?

[brinca]

Although I mostly never use the context key, it did come in handy one time when my laptop's backslash/pipe key broke, which, among other things, disabled me from doing || (OR) expressions (kind of a bummer if you do programming for a living).. I remapped the context key for the backslash/pipe key, rewired my brain to start using it on the new location, and life is wonderful once again! :)

BTW, since I work primarily on "stupid", I had to run some software that takes care of all the remapping on the registry (which is needlessly complex to do manually), and it works fine to this day.

Re:delete key? what?

[Your.Master]

Throughout Windows, Shift+F10 is a context menu key, which long predated it appearing on standard keyboards. I don't happen to know an equivalent in other OSes because I haven't worked in client-side keyboard accessibility in apps for other OSes -- I use the mouse for context menus.

Funny enough, they don't map to the exact same virtual key codes so there are apps that fuck up one or the other -- and Windows' own start menu has a perverse behaviour where when you have a search term, shift+F10 is context for the search box and the context key is the context for search results. I honestly can't tell whether that's on purpose, because I can see wanting a way to access both context menus but I don't know who but a programmer would ever guess to try both methods on the same field.

Re:delete key? what?

[Push Latency]

I used to just remove the context menu key and the insert key from my keyboard. But about 10 years ago, I mapped the context menu key to launch zombo.com. It seems most folks aren't familiar with the key's purpose - a fun prop for showing newbs how modern computing is so advanced, a single key-click is the only thing that stands between you and your ability to "do anything you want..."

Re:delete key? what?

[Qzukk]

The option should be somewhere easy to find. After upgrading from Office XP to Office 2010 I had to resort to google to figure out how to get the insert key to work again.

Re:delete key? what?

[HeronBlademaster]

Fix it? It's not broken. Ctrl+C has a specific meaning. Ctrl+V has a specific meaning. Linux terminals don't treat them as "copy" and "paste", but that does not mean they are broken. Terminals have always used Ctrl+C to interrupt running programs; what would be the point of changing it to mean "copy" now?

Re:delete key? what?

[flyingkillerrobots]

You dont use the delete key? how do you delete files? right click?!?

And you can never delete files on a Mac!

Re:delete key? what?

[Anonymous Coward]

Mouse? Not necessary. The Shift, Ctrl, and arrow keys work just fine (and often better), even for complex multi-selects.

Nobody does that, though. Even some of the technically adept Windows users I know are flabbergasted to see me select multiple discontiguous files in Explorer with just the keyboard.

- T

Re:delete key? what?

[UnknownSoldier]

Have to agree.

That's about the only thing that pisses me off on a Mac keyboard .. you can take the insert key from my cold dead fingers.

It's weird how Apple gets somethings right (the Apple //e had dedicated open-apple, closed-apple keys), yet it took Microsoft until 1995 to have a dedicated Windows key, had arrow keys, numeric keypad, yet Apple never had an Insert key (as far as I can tell...)

Re:delete key? what?

[UnknownSoldier]

> What does anyone need the Insert key for?

Program much??

To toggle between insert and over-strike mode like any editor worth a dam has. I hate having to remember some stupid custom key combination when it has been a standard dedicated key, say for the past ~ 20 years (give or take a few years)

Re:delete key? what?

[Anonymous Coward]

Timothy, what would you recommend as an alternative to the 'three-finger salute'?

I hear CowboyNeal gives quite the four-finger salute.

Re:delete key? what?

[Garridan]

The insert key is useful for typing over text. Am I the only person who uses this? It's faster than backspacing over a sentence, if you're gonna write something else in its place.

Re:delete key? what?

[Antisyzygy]

I worked for a dude one time that used Linux and Windows frequently. He also used the keyboard to do everything about 90 percent of the time. He would only default to the mouse if it was absolutely necessary to do so. I never went to his house myself, but other coworkers went there and told me some stories. He apparently had a Sailor Moon bed spread on his mattress and there was a plastic bed accessory he sported that made his entire bed look like a race car. Red race car mattress, Sailor Moon bed spread. Connect the dots.

Re:delete key? what?

[WCguru42]

know that CTRL-INS and SHIFT-INS are handy combinations for copy & paste, especially when you don't want to actually send CTRL characters to the terminal. as an alternative to the 'three-finger salute'?

Um, pardon, but how is using CTRL-INS not sending a CTRL character.

Re:delete key? what?

[Asm-Coder]

You could swap tilde and esc, turning it into a "Linux" keyboard actually available for sell from Unicomp, although I've never seen anything about it being used historically. That would move esc closer, and would put it above the homerow, which is supposed to be easier to reach.

Re:delete key? what?

[Shadow of Eternity]

I hated when they added the windows key given that most games back then relied on Ctrl and Alt for their primary controls.

Re:delete key? what?

[iron-kurton]

True, I remember the game going black for a second and the start menu popping up, and then thinking "Shit."

But seriously, one thing Microsoft did get right is that they pretty much reserved the windows-key as a system-wide shortcut key. Start-D (desktop), Start-L (lock), Start-R (run), Start-F (find), Start-E (explorer). I *love* those key bindings.

Contrast with Mac's F9, F10, F11 and F12 keys. If your program just happens to use one of those keys, you're shit-out-of-luck (as is the case when trying to debug something in Visual Studio in a virtual machine, for example).

Re:delete key? what?

[DavidD_CA]

IF you want to talk about useless keys, let's talk about the 'context menu key' that is located beside the right windows key.

I use the Context key frequently. For example, if you're typing in Word and the spell checker identifies a mistake (red squiggle), I can put my cursor inside the word and use the Context key to pull up the spell check results. This is far faster than grabbing the mouse to use a right-click.

Likewise with working on files. I often navigate to folders and open them without using the mouse. The Context key lets me "right click" whatever I have selected so that I can send it to a USB drive, email it as an attachment, or open it with an alternative program.

I would say it gets far more use than the Caps Lock and Scroll Lock combined.

Re:delete key? what?

[iron-kurton]

God, this times a 1000. Have you ever had a need for resettng PRAM and NVRAM?

- Locate the following keys on the keyboard: Command, Option, P, and R. You will need to hold these keys down simultaneously in step 4.
- Turn on the computer.

Uhh.... MOM!! Can you come help me turn on my computer?

Re:delete key? what?

[Skal Tura]

then you got to learn how to use keyboard if you keep hitting insert instead of delete.

I'm a business owner, i sell hosting services, manage tons of servers, code etc etc.

I *REFUSE* to use any keyboard which has non regular insert/delete key positioning, sizing or anything. how they are, is best how they are. I need both keys, regularly, each and every day.

For example, i cannot use any logitech keyboard as they have non-standard layouts. It's simply slow and hard to paste into SSH.

Also VIM uses either key i or insert to enable writing, and to get to replace mode only key allowing that is insert.

Both of those keys are immensively valuable for me, and i'm sure for tons of other geeks out there, pretty much anyone who uses SSH regularly, or linux.

Like another commenter (joaommp just below) who's never been so pissed on /., i am too and i got to agree 100% with joaommp: Timothy, you are in idiot.

Re:delete key? what?

[hvm2hvm]

He probably meant CTRL+C which usually interrupts the currently running command in a terminal or CTRL+Z which sends EOF.

Re:delete key? what?

[m50d]

The point is that in many terminal emulators (or real terminals) hitting ctrl-V or ctrl-C will actually send that to the program running in the terminal (after all, the program might want to do something with that). And ctrl-C generally interrupts the program, which you probably don't want to do. Wheras ctrl-ins / shift-ins will do the right thing.

Re:delete key? what?

[imakemusic]

I agree with you on the left windows key. Very annoying, especially as a gamer. However, all those keys do come in useful if you're ever without a mouse.

Re:delete key? what?

[Skal Tura]

Also the Shift+Insert shortcut works on windows as well and is easier to use than ctrl+v in many cases.

Re:delete key? what?

[Churnits]

"...we have better stuff now" - That's my usual response to anyone who uses vi.

Re:delete key? what?

[cyclomedia]

It's quite obvious that the keyboard is based off a typewriter hackjob when you realize that despite the massive amount of time spent doing math - in both development and office use - there are no multiply and divide symbols.

Re:delete key? what?

[Errtu76]

True. And the powerbutton on my laptop is also close to my PageUp key. In fact, sometimes when posting on ./ i tend to press it to read what the original text was and*&^+{}++--##@!!@{}+NO CARRIER

Re:delete key? what?

[bleakgadfly]

rm -P .... kplox

Re:delete key? what?

[wgoodman]

Don't forget Start-M to minimize all.

Re:delete key? what?

[mrfaithful]

Contrast with Mac's F9, F10, F11 and F12 keys. If your program just happens to use one of those keys, you're shit-out-of-luck (as is the case when trying to debug something in Visual Studio in a virtual machine, for example).

You can use Cmd-F9/10/11/12 to avoid the expose stuff. OS X sees that as a different combination so doesn't fire expose but VMware passes the F-key unmodified to the VM which seems like an oversight but has got me out of a number of jams. If not using vmware YMMV.

Re:delete key? what?

[xouumalperxe]

Contrast with Mac's F9, F10, F11 and F12 keys. If your program just happens to use one of those keys, you're shit-out-of-luck (as is the case when trying to debug something in Visual Studio in a virtual machine, for example).

That does suck -- I'm a 5-button mouse person and thankfully OSX allowed me to map the more useful exposé commands to the thumb buttons, and the F8-F12 bindings are now Shift-F8 to Shift-F12.

Also, that bit of brain-dead keybinding is made up for by having the command key and ctrl key separate. Cmd-C/Cmd-V working on the shell without having conflicts with Ctrl-C is how computers are supposed to work :)

Re:delete key? what?

[Vectormatic]

i totally agree with your general sentiment, removing delete would be stupid.

But the file deletion thing comes acros as a "you dirty mouse clicking simpleton" sneer, to which i can only reply with "with rm"

(sorry, couldnt help myself, no flame intended)

Re:delete key? what?

[angiasaa]

I use the "Ins" key when editing documents. Not often, but still, it's a useful key to have when you're writing your dissertation or thesis.

Re:delete key? what?

[naz404]

Red race car mattress, Sailor Moon bed spread. Connect the dots.

... he's a Japanese superhero?

Re:delete key? what?

[magpie]

But seriously, I use all the keys on the keyboard, except some of the F# keys.

SysRq? You use that key? Does that do anything any more except when doing stuff with the kernel?

Re:delete key? what?

[dargaud]

But seriously, one thing Microsoft did get right is that they pretty much reserved the windows-key as a system-wide shortcut key. Start-D (desktop), Start-L (lock), Start-R (run), Start-F (find), Start-E (explorer). I *love* those key bindings.

While I did use those combinations while I was on Windows, I still think that adding a whole key to the keyboard for what is no more than 4 or 5 basic shortcuts is kind of a waste. Either you add a function key and add functionality with every other key, or you find a Shift-Alt-Ctrl-Whatever to fit it in. It's not even possible to use it for user shortcuts in explorer which is a damn shame.

Re:delete key? what?

[dargaud]

Map it to a compose key

Most useful keyboard advice ever, when writing multilingual on Linux. It's a liberation after 20 years of memorizing Alt codes on windows !

Re:delete key? what?

[V!NCENT]

If you want to go all out 1337 you get this: http://www.daskeyboard.com/model-s-ultimate/

Re:delete key? what?

[tixxit]

At my last job I had to write content in both French and English. I bought a French-Canadian keyboard.

Re:delete key? what?

[sholsinger]

Traditional Ctrl+C is an "end program" control character.

Re:delete key? what?

[Speare]

Sorry, I have never been so pissed off in my /. life and I've got to say: "timothy, you're an idiot".

You pick THIS moment to be pissed off?

That's one of the thing I hate about mac keyboards and Apple's inability to understand that people have a limited number of fingers.

Not sure what you mean by a limited number of fingers... we're not talking about Emacs and its quadruple bucky keystrokes. However, I fully agree that Apple's idea of useful key bindings is sometimes ridiculous. For example, they insist that Home and End keys jump all the way to the top and bottom of the whole document, rather than the carriage home (start) and the end of the current line. In most files I am editing, there are (say) a thousand lines, so there are a couple thousand handy locations I may want to jump to with a single logical keystroke. The number of times I want to jump to the end of the document is vanishingly small in comparison, and can be done by holding down a Page Down key for a moment or two instead.

Re:delete key? what?

[cerberusss]

Locate the following keys on the keyboard: Command, Option, P, and R. You will need to hold these keys down simultaneously in step 4. Turn on the computer.

Look, NOWHERE in the knowledge base article, Apple says that you need to use fingers to hold down those keys.

Re:delete key? what?

[mcgrew]

I don't agree. X,C, and V are right together, and I can easily copy with my left hand, move focus with my right, and paste with my left. Far faster and easier shift+insert.

It's one of the very few Microsoft things I like better than Linux.

Re:delete key? what?

[mcgrew]

Hey guys, scroll lock and pause/break are useless!

Scroll lock is simply a holdover from early PCs (IMB-PC and XT) when keyboards didn't have separate number pads and arrow pads. I agree that they're useless these days.

The Break key is useful if you want to stop a running script or batch file.

I never could figure out why they use Alt+Tab for switching between windows. Seems they could have used SysReq. And the Window key bugs me as well. Yes, there's Win+L etc, but it seems Ctrl+L would be better.

Without a ScrollLock key, MS could have easily designed a different key combo for that function.

Can anybody tell me how to minimize or maximise a window without the mouse? There's a lot about modern OSes that either don't make sense, are undocumented, or are poorly undocumented.

Re:delete key? what?

[Just Some Guy]

I think the quality of the unicomp boards is closer to the lexmark made Model Ms than the IBM ones,

I haven't knowingly used a Lexmark, but I'd still say you're right. I was using a Model M (January 91) but got a Unicomp about a year ago because I was missing the extra keys that I could bind stuff to. It's a fine keyboard, but not as firm or clicky as the M, and significantly lighter and more flexible. I don't mean that as a complaint - just an observation.

Re:delete key? what?

[dargaud]

I find that switching keyboard is confusing, so I stick to qwerty, even after 5 years in France. And for programming, azerty sucks anyway (no {} and other programming items).

Re:delete key? what?

[drsmithy]

Additionally, those of us accustomed to working with *nix operating systems know that CTRL-INS and SHIFT-INS are handy combinations for copy & paste, [...]

Entertainingly enough, those keyboard shortcuts originated in Windows, via IBM's influence.

Re:delete key? what?

[lavacano201014]

or press i in Vim instead of Insert if that's really a problem.

Re:delete key? what?

[Aphoxema]

Get a Man's keyboard. I never have that problem on my Model Ms.

Same here... :-)

The IBM Model M: The World's Greatest PC Keyboard!!!

http://www.typematrix.com/shop/images/products/2030-dvorak.png

I've had the previous version of this for years and I love it, but as a tool for self defense it would probably fare little better than a box of aluminum foil... with the teeth pulled off, so you couldn't even like, saw at someone's neck.

Re:delete key? what?

[Aphoxema]

If you're using a Linux terminal (or an ssh session in PuTTY or something), Ctrl+V doesn't paste (for the same reason that Ctrl+C does not copy), but Shift+Insert does.

Yeah, I'm not sure at what point I suddenly stopped using ctrl-V, it sort of seems easier to do shift-insert being right-handed.

Re:delete key? what?

[drsmithy]

But seriously, one thing Microsoft did get right is that they pretty much reserved the windows-key as a system-wide shortcut key. Start-D (desktop), Start-L (lock), Start-R (run), Start-F (find), Start-E (explorer). I *love* those key bindings.

I like the Windows key shortcuts as well, but I lament the completely missed opportunity to rebase and restandardise all keyboard shortcuts on the Windows key, much like MacOS does with the Command key. The Windows key is grossly underutilised.

Contrast with Mac's F9, F10, F11 and F12 keys. If your program just happens to use one of those keys, you're shit-out-of-luck (as is the case when trying to debug something in Visual Studio in a virtual machine, for example).

These are relatively easy to trigger using the Fn- (or Command- on non-laptop keyboards, I think) modifier. If you need to trigger a scroll lock, however, and are on a Mac laptop or have one of their awful wireless keyboards, you really are SOL.

Re:delete key? what?

[mlippert]

I must say I was happy to see others have the same response I had to the parenthetical (along with the Insert/Delete pair) in the story.

As a lefty who uses the mouse w/ their left hand, the Ctrl-Insert for copy Shift-Insert for paste, and shift-Delete for cut are much more accessible (because they use the right hand) than the Ctrl-C, Ctrl-V and Ctrl-X keys which would require me to take my left hand off the mouse to press.

I always try to make sure both sets of keys work in apps I develop.

Moving the caps lock somewhere obscure I agree with :-), perhaps next to the key I use about as much, the Scroll Lock key.

Re:delete key? what?

[joaommp]

yeah, that's a great keyboard for laptops

Re:delete key? what?

[drsmithy]

- Locate the following keys on the keyboard: Command, Option, P, and R. You will need to hold these keys down simultaneously in step 4.
- Turn on the computer.

Though since "turn on the computer" is actually Step 3, it's not as silly as the above makes it sound...

Re:delete key? what?

[joaommp]

You pick THIS moment to be pissed off?

Yeah, I've been on a short fuse and anti-psicotics.

Not sure what you mean by a limited number of fingers... we're not talking about Emacs and its quadruple bucky keystrokes

Macs have some of those.

However, I fully agree that Apple's idea of useful key bindings is sometimes ridiculous.

Precisely. Besides, never in my life I experienced a platform so non-uniform when it comes to key combinations, despite the apparent tidy environment it has.

Re:delete key? what?

[BuckaBooBob]

Delete Windows.... Install Linux...

No need to use a 3 finger salute anymore for anything...

Re:delete key? what?

[drsmithy]

I never could figure out why they use Alt+Tab for switching between windows.

Because it's exceptionally easy to hit, quickly and consistently. Two relatively large keys, almost exactly where your thumb and little finger sit naturally.

Seems they could have used SysReq.

Awesome, needing two hands to switch windows.

And the Window key bugs me as well. Yes, there's Win+L etc, but it seems Ctrl+L would be better.

Well, what they *should* have done with Windows 95 was rebase and restandardise all the standard keyboard shortcuts (for close windows, copy/paste, etc) around the Windows key, like Apple does with the Command key. Unfortunately they instead chose to do it around the Ctrl key instead.

Can anybody tell me how to minimize or maximise a window without the mouse?

Alt+space, n (in Windows, MacOS has relatively poor keyboardability so there probably isn't one, and in Linux it could be anything, depending on which GUI you're running this week).

There's a lot about modern OSes that either don't make sense, are undocumented, or are poorly undocumented.

Most things are very well documented, you just need to look. Typing "keyboard shortcuts" into Windows Help will get you to a list of all the standard ones.

Re:delete key? what?

[Daedalon]

IF you want to talk about useless keys, let's talk about the 'context menu key' that is located beside the right windows key.

I suggest you learn the numerous possible uses for it before bashing it. I use it numerous times a day in things like filesystem navigation to word processing to ebook reading. It's not just the most convenient way to do many things without the mouse, but sometimes a necessity.

In Windows Explorer: Context + R = file properties. Faster than Alt-Something + Another key. Requires only one finger.

In Adobe Reader full screen mode clicking with the left mouse button changes the page. The only way I've found for zooming the page to be readable is pressing Context and then selecting Zoom tool. After done, press Context again to choose another tool to avoid accidentally zooming too large (Reader has only a zoom in option in this case).

I'm sure you can think of many other uses when you start exploring. I learned some of the uses by accidental keystrokes and only then began to really explore the options. It's an absolutely essential key for me when I want to keep my hands to the keyboard, not to the mouse.

Re:delete key? what?

[RobertM1968]

If you want to go all out 1337 you get this: http://www.daskeyboard.com/model-s-ultimate/

I just take the keycaps off mine and leave the blanks on. :-)

Re:delete key? what?

[RobertM1968]

I can't say what a pleasure it is to read someone gross and incorrect description of how the internals of the hand and wrist work and then come to the wrong conclusions. Seriously, I can't say.

Oh, really? Talk to IBM (who spent a decade on the Model M design) or perhaps doctors who actually studied such things. Or, you could talk out of your ass. In 24 years of using a Model M, I've never had wrist fatigue or finger fatigue or such. Looks like IBM may have been right, and those ten years were worthwhile.

Re:delete key? what?

[mcgrew]

Awesome, needing two hands to switch windows.

No, just one finger. Especially handy if you're using the numeric keypad to enter numbers into a spreadsheet or database.

Well, what they *should* have done with Windows 95 was rebase and restandardise all the standard keyboard shortcuts (for close windows, copy/paste, etc) around the Windows key, like Apple does with the Command key.

Well, I have to excuse MS on this one. Most PCs didn't have a Windows key when Win 95 came out, and Ctrl (control) is a logical choice.

Alt+space, n (in Windows

Thanks, I have to use Windows at work. About the only time I even use the mouse is on the internet, or using MS Access.

Oops, just tried it in IE, and it opened a new window. Alt+Space M seems to work in Access.

in Linux it could be anything, depending on which GUI you're running this week

My preference is KDE (used kubuntu most recently until my computers got stolen, I'm not sure what flavor of Linux I'm going to put on the box I just acquired. I wish Mandriva hadn't died, I loved that OS.

Typing "keyboard shortcuts" into Windows Help will get you to a list of all the standard ones.

Um, not on XP. "Suggested topics (13 results)
"Overview" doesn't say how to minimize or maximize (and thanks again), and it looks like dozens of clicks that you have to mostly guess at to find anything at all. I'd call that "poor documentation", or at least poor documentation design.

The Acer came with Win 7, and its documentation dodn't seem much if any better than XP's.

Kubuntu is actually missing some of the help files I needed.

Maybe I should buy a Mac...

Re:delete key? what?

[drsmithy]

Oops, just tried it in IE, and it opened a new window. Alt+Space M seems to work in Access.

It works fine in IE. I don't have Access installed so I can't test, but since Alt+space is the system-wide combo to bring up a window's system menu, there's no reason I can think of that it shouldn't work. Heck, you can often use this trick to minimise windows that "shouldn't" be minimisable.

What you're actually doing is opening the system menu with Alt+space, then selecting "Minimise" from that with 'n'. There is not a specific single "Minimise window" combo so far as I know. The same process can also be used to maximise, restore, resize, move and close windows from the keyboard. In Windows, pressing the underlined letter (for menus) or Alt+underlined letter (in dialogs) will "click" that item. Tab will iterate through dialog box elements.

The Acer came with Win 7, and its documentation dodn't seem much if any better than XP's.

In Windows 7, opening up help and typing "keyboard shortcuts" results in a page full of hits. The 7th item is called "Keyboard shortcuts" and from a quick sampling probably lists all of them. Not to mention they're nearly always listed beside the relevant items in menus anyway.

Maybe I should buy a Mac...

I wouldn't advise it if you want good keyboard access. Even today, MacOS clearly betrays its thou-shalt-use-the-single-button-mouse roots - its keyboardability only has delusions of adequacy, especially by default. Enabling "keyboard accessibility" improves things a bit, but still not in the same league as Windows.

Re:delete key? what?

[MistrBlank]

Not only is it sometimes easier, it's REQUIRED. I have a microsoft keyboard I brought to work. It's so much better than the crappy keyboard they gave me to use. But there is one slight problem, no insert key, for whatever reason Microsoft removed it on this keyboard from the home/end/pgup/pgdown section of the keyboard (and yet kept delete).

I have a few terminals that require me to shift+insert to paste because ctrl+c generates a break.

Re:delete key? what?

[tixxit]

Actually, Canadian-French keyboards aren't AZERTY, but still QWERTY (I've tried an AZERTY kb and, yes, they suck). http://frontype.com/keyboarding/540px-Computer-keyboard-Canadian-French.svg.png

Re:delete key? what?

[BenoitRen]

Yes, I program, and overwrite mode is something I never use.

Re:delete key? what?

[flabordec]

Also VIM uses either key i or insert to enable writing, and to get to replace mode only key allowing that is insert.

Or R, unless I am missing something.

My printer only has capital letters

[Animats]

My printer only has capital letters, you insensitive clods.

Re:My printer only has capital letters

[MoonBuggy]

There doesn't appear to be a +1: Awesome mod option...

Re:My printer only has capital letters

[robinvanleeuwen]

And it seems the +1 funny has been switched with the +1 interesting

WOT? NO CAPSLOCK?

[grcumb]

If there must be such a thing as a Caps Lock key on conventional keyboards, I wish it could be banished (along with the Insert/Delete pair) to a hard-to-fumble-upon switch on the bottom of the keyboard or laptop.

Sounds like someone doesn't program using constants....

Re:WOT? NO CAPSLOCK?

[Max Littlemore]

I use constants but I hate caps lock.
1st, It's really easy to bump by accident.
2nd, when I type in constants, I often use underscores in them, far more frequently than numerals.

I would like a good old mechanical shift lock. Something with a solid click to it so it's harder to accidentally engage.
When I type in constants, I hold one finger on the shift key and make do with the remaining three fingers on my left hand. I find that much easier than the decidedly odd behaviour.

Re:WOT? NO CAPSLOCK?

[RobertM1968]

I use constants but I hate caps lock. 1st, It's really easy to bump by accident.

2nd, when I type in constants, I often use underscores in them, far more frequently than numerals.

I would like a good old mechanical shift lock.

Something with a solid click to it so it's harder to accidentally engage.

When I type in constants, I hold one finger on the shift key and make do with the remaining three fingers on my left hand. I find that much easier than the decidedly odd behaviour.

Get an IBM Model M. The keycap has a chunk taken out of it next to the "A" key to make it more difficult to accidentally hit. Actually, all the keys are pretty much more difficult to accidentally hit due to the key design/layout (deeper left-right curves on the keycaps, generous "V" spacing between each key, etc), curvature of the layout (stepped rows), tactile/mechanical aspect, etc... and of course, they make great bludgeoning weapons that you can still use afterwards to type up the suicide note of the person you beat to death.... umm... not that I would know... I read that somewhere.... really.

Re:WOT? NO CAPSLOCK?

[MichaelSmith]

I would be happy with a feature where a long press on shift activates caps lock. I think thats more intuitive and less likely to be activated accidentally.

Re:WOT? NO CAPSLOCK?

[Max Littlemore]

I would have to disable that. It would not help at all and would hinder my current usage of the shift key. I just want a shift lock, not a caps lock.

Re:WOT? NO CAPSLOCK?

[Max Littlemore]

I miss my old model M. I know you can still get them, but I tend to use laptops these days and it just seems a bit silly to spend the extra money and carry the extra weight.

Re:WOT? NO CAPSLOCK?

[h4rr4r]

So leave one at work and one at home.

When I get a later model, say something after 97, I plan to make a wireless one for the living room.

Re:WOT? NO CAPSLOCK?

[icebraining]

How about a reload key?

I've seen more than one keyboard where the F5 key as a "refresh symbol" printed on instead of the actual name. Tech support calls where the F5 key is to be pressed must be fun. "What F5 key? I don't have that!"

Re:WOT? NO CAPSLOCK?

[h4rr4r]

The people you are speaking about should just get an ipad/android tablet and be done with it. Clearly they do not need an actual computer.

Re:WOT? NO CAPSLOCK?

[jo_ham]

Apple's keyboards currently have something close - tapping on the caps lock key doesn't activate it, so it won't toggle on if you hit it accidentally while typing. You have to hold it down for a fraction longer to turn it on. Conversely, it disables immediately at a normal keypress.

I have never accidentally turned on caps lock on this keyboard, and I'm a woeful, self-taught high speed modified hunt and peck sloppy typist. I do hit ; a lot when I mean to hit ' since the keys are in a slightly different place than on the original keyboard I "honed" my woeful skills on.

Re:WOT? NO CAPSLOCK?

[imakemusic]

Doesn't sticky keys do this in windows?

Re:WOT? NO CAPSLOCK?

[lavacano201014]

I prefer using Shift over Caps Lock for any LONG STRING OF CAPITALS IN ANY CONTEXT. So on my laptop I told KDE to turn Caps Lock into a "Compose" key (where a" gives me ä...or maybe it's "a. I'm on Windows, which only has US International keyboard mappings and no Compose key settings so I can't remember).

I'd rather have a dedicated compose key than a Caps Lock key. However, the mechanical Shift Lock previously mentioned as well as a dedicated Compose key sounds like a good idea.

Re:WOT? NO CAPSLOCK?

[Max Littlemore]

pffft... windows? isn't that old POS from the '90s?

You can do the same on Linux desktops, but it annoys the hell out of me... setting the time to short enough to make it useful means it gets triggered all the time, setting it so it doesn't get triggered by accident means it takes too long. No, I want a shift lock.

The caps lock key doesn't bother me

[Wonko the Sane]

What I want to know is how I can patch the kernel to force num lock on and ignore all attempts to turn it off.

Re:The caps lock key doesn't bother me

[GNUALMAFUERTE]

No need to patch the fucking kernel for that.

xmodmap will do. I have all kinds of customizations, including a num-lock key that does nothing.

Re:The caps lock key doesn't bother me

[Wonko the Sane]

What about when I'm not running X?

I already fixed one annoyance in the kernel in an extremely simple patch that I've been applying for years. I don't want console blanking and I never found a reliable userspace solution to turn it off so I just changed the default in the kernel. Now it never bothers me.

diff --git a/drivers/char/vt.c b/drivers/char/vt.c
index 281aada..a044b99 100644
--- a/drivers/char/vt.c
+++ b/drivers/char/vt.c
@@ -180,7 +180,7 @@ int console_blanked;

  static int vesa_blank_mode; /* 0:none 1:suspendV 2:suspendH 3:powerdown */
  static int vesa_off_interval;
-static int blankinterval = 10*60;
+static int blankinterval = 0*60;
  core_param(consoleblank, blankinterval, int, 0444);

  static DECLARE_WORK(console_work, console_callback);

Someday I want to do the same thing with num lock. I want it to be ON all the time with no possibility of turning it off ever. Since I don't always use X for everything the place to do it would be in the kernel but I don't know where.

Re:The caps lock key doesn't bother me

[jmorris42]

> I don't want console blanking and I never found a reliable userspace solution to turn it off ...

Man setterm.

Specifically, add setterm -powersave off to something like rc.local and forget about it. Sure as hell beats using a custom kernel vs your distro's better maintained one just for that. Of course if you are running a custom kernel anyway, guess one more patch doesn't hurt anything.

Re:The caps lock key doesn't bother me

[GNUALMAFUERTE]

setterm -powersave off -powerdown 0 -blank 0

That's in my rc.local ... fixes the damn issue. Really, happy-trigger kernel-patching is a bad solution, and goes against the beauty of Unix. You have an extremely powerful operating system, amazingly flexible, where you can do just about everything you need. Use it. Applying a kernel patch to change some userland behavior is the kind of ugly-hack I would expect from microsoft, not from GNU/Linux.

Re:The caps lock key doesn't bother me

[Wonko the Sane]

Specifically, add setterm -powersave off to something like rc.local and forget about it.

It's been a while but I was tried something like that but it didn't always work so I just started patching the kernel. Maybe it works now but there's no reason for me mess with a solution that already works.

Of course if you are running a custom kernel anyway, guess one more patch doesn't hurt anything.

I've been using kernel.org kernels instead of distribution kernels for ages. WIth git it's even easier because I can just say "git rebase v2.6.whatever" when a new version is released and my two very minor patches will get applied automatically.

Re:The caps lock key doesn't bother me

[JonySuede]

according to http://www.makelinux.net/kernel_map drivers/char/keyboard.c would be a good place to start looking

Re:The caps lock key doesn't bother me

[hedwards]

What about when I'm not running X?

That explains the rest of your post. You work for MS, don't you? Tell Steve Ballmer to knock it off with those stupid Windows keys on the keyboard, they're the most annoying keys on the entire board, and of little value even under Windows.

Re:The caps lock key doesn't bother me

[Wonko the Sane]

It's not userland behavior or otherwise there wouldn't be a default policy in the kernel. I didn't like the default policy so I changed it in my copy of the kernel source and now it's fixed forever.

Since I use one copy of the kernel source that is NFS shared on my LAN now it's one less thing I need to configure on each machine.

Re:The caps lock key doesn't bother me

[JonySuede]

when you run the system as single user, custom patch are not an ugly hack, they are a thing of beauty, a symbol of freedom

Re:The caps lock key doesn't bother me

[Nigel Stepp]

I'll agree heartily with this. I "fixed" my broken wireless card by altering the ipw2200 driver. It felt... satisfying.

Re:The caps lock key doesn't bother me

[JonySuede]

no it's fun

Re:The caps lock key doesn't bother me

[Ksevio]

Numlock sucks on laptops where it awkwardly maps the middle of the keyboard into a numpad. Though in that case I'd rather not have the option at all. Really a keyboard should use the buttons it has and not have any lock buttons.

Re:The caps lock key doesn't bother me

[shermo]

Get Autohotkey, and map numlock to set numlock to off. I did the same for my capslock key.

Re:The caps lock key doesn't bother me

[imakemusic]

Win+M - minimise all windows
Win+Shift+M - restore minimised windows
Win+R - Run
Win+L - Lock screen/change user
Win+left/right - moves the window to the left/right of the screen - useful if you've got more than one monitor and can't drag it to the edge (win7).
Win+down/up - minimises/maximises a window (win 7)
Win+typing a word+enter - Runs a program. Massively quicker than scanning the start menu by eye (vista + 7).

There are plenty of uses for the Windows key. In fact Windows 7 introduces a load of new uses which makes the button what it should be - a dedicated button for operating system/window managing functions. Sure its position can be annoying as you can hit it when trying to hit ctrl, especially when gaming but you can always disable the left windows key and use the right one if that's what you want.

You might not use your winkey but I certainly use mine. Hur hur hur.

Re:The caps lock key doesn't bother me

[dargaud]

Someday I want to do the same thing with num lock. I want it to be ON all the time with no possibility of turning it off ever.

I saw some solutions for that and tried them. Then when connecting to another machine via VNC I noticed that on the other side the numlock wasn't active and I had to press it locally to activate it remotely... but since I'd removed the capability locally I was screwed. So now I just live with it and press the damn caps-lock after boot.

Re:The caps lock key doesn't bother me

[lavacano201014]

Play Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri and say that again. Trust me, with Num Lock on, the numpad won't be able to control units, meaning you'll have to remember which of the Ins/Del/etc keys control the diagonal moves. I doubt it's the only program that does this, but it's the only one I can think of.

Re:The caps lock key doesn't bother me

[geekoid]

Maybe, but it's still brain dead. Some people like to get drunk and then drive as fast as they can, they call it fun. They are usually smart enough to recognize it's also a brain dead idea...so they got one on you.

What else can I remap it to?

[smoot123]

First thing I do to new computers is remap caps lock to control, the way God and RMS intended. I move escape too. Annoys the snot out of my wife and kids, but that's hardly my problem.

I'm not really sure why that much keyboard real estate needs to be dedicated to search. Seems like a goofy default.

Re:What else can I remap it to?

[jmorris42]

> Annoys the snot out of my wife and kids, but that's hardly my problem.

So you are doing it wrong just to annoy people? Childish. Easy enough to only have the unusual keymapping when you are logged in and leave the system default alone.

Re:What else can I remap it to?

[h4rr4r]

Bah, Ctrl where Caps is often found is the right way!

Better to teach them now, then have them use that heathen layout.

Re:What else can I remap it to?

[MichaelSmith]

> Annoys the snot out of my wife and kids, but that's hardly my problem.

So you are doing it wrong just to annoy people?

I run FVWM with Button3 mapped to the window close function and the mouse buttons reversed with xmodmap. Its annoying for people who try to use my workspace but I can live with that.

Re:What else can I remap it to?

[Meshach]

First thing I do to new computers is remap caps lock to control, the way God and RMS intended...

And?

Missile Switch Cover

[Chicken_Kickers]

Then, the solution is to have a Missile Switch Cover-type http://www.sparkfun.com/products/9278 thing over the Delete key. Makes my Nuclear General fantasy more believable too.

Re:Missile Switch Cover

[arth1]

What's wrong with CTRL-H?

Get rid of all these stupid useless keys

[Simonetta]

I work in the Employment office in Gresham, Oregon USA. I help people use computers. In order to get unemployment checks in Oregon, all applicants have to complete this long questionaire on a PC about their occupational skills, work history, and personal status. People can do this on-line or come into our 'worksource center' and use the computers that we have here. And I'm supposed to help them. (I get minimum wage for this and no benefits. Nnot that that is important. I just want you to know that I'm not a highly paid government employee)
The information is supposed to match the unemployed with the jobs that all the companies in Oregon have available.

  Not a bad concept except for two things. There are no jobs, and, about half of the people coming through the process can't use computers. And about 15-20% of the people can't speak english and have never, ever, ever used a computer before. I am not bullshitting you about this. It seems like a fantasy to highly-educated young Slashdaughters like yourself, but I assure you that this is the case in the lower-middle class neighborhoods of the USA (and probably the rest of the world as well).

    So I get a lot of people who have never typed on a keyboard before. And they get put in front of a keyboard that was designed for advanced professional word-processing business typists of the early 1980's era. A lot of them must feel like they've been abducted by space aliens, especially the ones who have come from pre-industrial cultures and have been doing 'under the table' unskilled construction labor or fruit picking.

    I would greatly help if there were only half of the keys on the PC keyboard that there are presently. And get rid of the fucking Num-lock key and the stupid Caps-Lock key!

    Please.

    I'm not kidding about this. Just do it.

Re:Get rid of all these stupid useless keys

[jmorris42]

> I would greatly help if there were only half of the keys
> on the PC keyboard that there are presently.

So to please uneducated non computer users who don't own or use computers, we who do know how to use all the keys on a modern keyboard should be forced to endure a crippled user interface. Lemme guess, Obama voter.

Trust me, every key is needed with the possible exception of caps and num lock. Numlock is just there as a legacy from the old 84 key keyboard and could be eliminated... except a lot of things glommed on to it as a an unneeded key that could be repurposed. Same for scroll lock, lots of KVM boxes use scroll lock to switch displays.

Re:Get rid of all these stupid useless keys

[p0p0]

If they are older keyboards. then all they would have to do is remove the unnecessary keys and place plastic cards over the mechanisms so they can't be pushed. Problem solved.

Re:Get rid of all these stupid useless keys

[geekoid]

Put in a request for one of a Ergoguys KB1 Keyboard Or a Greystone BigKeys LX Kids Keyboard

Worst case, gt stickers with easy to read letters and put themon the keyboard. besure that have a divverent background then the keyboard.

At least you can tell then to ignore the rest.

I use cap lock s and num-lock. Don't assume you don't need them so no one does.

Oregon use to have a free course at PCC on basic computer skills like these, has that stopped? It was part of the resume building job assistant stuff. Good stuff. I mean, ti was annoying to me to have to take it in order to sue the service I need, but for a lot of people it's need. And really, I used the time to created a written plan on my job search strategy.

Re:Get rid of all these stupid useless keys

[pjbgravely]

Just ask your IT department to map the keys out. That is if the OS was released after 2001. If not your probably out of luck.

Re:Get rid of all these stupid useless keys

[AnttiV]

I'm with you there... almost. I'd just add "Scroll Lock" to the list of keys to be ditched... someone seriously uses this key? For what? (or Pause for that matter, I use it only occasionally to stop BIOS POST so I can read what it says, but other than that, no.) Oh, and that other "Windows Key", the one that acts as mouse's second button? Never used.

Re:Get rid of all these stupid useless keys

[h4rr4r]

Scroll lock is used for all kinds of stuff, KVMs some terminal systems. Leave it alone.

Windows keys can be ditched with the OS.

Re:Get rid of all these stupid useless keys

[h4rr4r]

It was used so you could scroll up and down on a terminal with the arrow keys. Now, get off my lawn.

Re:Get rid of all these stupid useless keys

[vanyel]

FreeBSD uses it on the console screen --- hit scrolllock and then page up and page down work. That's about the only time I've seen a use for it.

Re:Get rid of all these stupid useless keys

[h4rr4r]

What OS can't map the keys out?

Even old windows versions do this by registry key, in any OS using X you can use xmodmap.

Re:Get rid of all these stupid useless keys

[MrQuacker]

When you quit, set them all to Dvorak.

Re:Get rid of all these stupid useless keys

[RightwingNutjob]

My pre-information age grandfather, who trained and worked as an electronics engineer btw, had a similar problem upon first encountering a VCR remote. The first stage was confusion, the last stage was acceptance, but somewhere in the middle (before he got used to the thing) he came up with the idea of marketing slip-covers for VCR remotes that had a few windows on them so you could press the PLAY, STOP, and FF/REWIND, without having all those extra buttons in the way to confuse you. Doesn't make sense for remotes, because they're all sorts of different shapes and styles, but it might make sense in this application, since most keyboards are about the same size. If you block out everything except the letters, space, and backspace, you can use a normal commodity keyboard and reduce confusion.

Does this comment count as prior art?

Re:Get rid of all these stupid useless keys

[Bigjeff5]

Frankly, I agree with the GP. I only ever use about 70 keys on my keyboard (basically the main alphabet keys and those directly surrounding them, plus a couple others), and I sit in front of a computer for a living. Function keys? I've been using a keyboard for 20 years and I've never needed 12 of them. In fact, two would be fine, and in most situations mapping the function to a letter key on the keyboard instead of a function key would be no different. Num pad? What am I, an accountant? I have no practical need for that, the numbers above the letter keys is fine. Map in any occasional functions a dual-key hotkey and you've just gotten rid of half the keyboard. WASD proves the arrow pad is superfluous too.

Most people don't need a lot of the keys on their keyboards. Those that do should by a special keyboard to suit their needs.

Re:Get rid of all these stupid useless keys

[h4rr4r]

If you buy a better quality keyboard you can pop off the keycaps for those keys. Probably easier to just use the OS method of disabling them though.

Re:Get rid of all these stupid useless keys

[Anonymous Coward]

May our paths never meet.

Re:Get rid of all these stupid useless keys

[pjbgravely]

Silly me, I figured that older versions of Microsoft windows couldn't remap keys, otherwise no one would ever complain about useless or problem keys.

Re:Get rid of all these stupid useless keys

[RightwingNutjob]

The point is that the extra physical buttons are confusing. Turning them off in software won't fix that. Kinda like having a whole bunch of GUI buttons with arcane labels that don't do anything when clicked.

That said, my biased opinion is that just like people have to learn to read, which is not a natural skill you're preprogrammed with at birth, they'll have to learn to type and to negotiate the UI conventions that we've settled on in the last 20+ years of GUI-based computers. And for that, standardization to what's already here is probably better.

Re:Get rid of all these stupid useless keys

[h4rr4r]

Sounds good to me.

Re:Get rid of all these stupid useless keys

[parlancex]

Or maybe you could just buy a special keyboard made for beginners to computers / invalids, or on a budget you could just remove all the keys you don't feel are important by picking them off or putting tape over them.

Re:Get rid of all these stupid useless keys

[thePowerOfGrayskull]

If you do programming and also type a lot of account numbers, num lock has value too...

Re:Get rid of all these stupid useless keys

[OAB_X]

I don't drive and have no difficulty finding employment.

Re:Get rid of all these stupid useless keys

[Belial6]

For the confusing buttons, you could use a bottle of nail polish to simply white out any unused buttons. That being said, you are correct that there are some things that people just have to learn. Light switches, electrical outlets, and computers....

Honestly, I think the "Computers are hard" line of reasoning is seriously flawed. People use it because they can get away with it. Having watched a 1 year old child that cannot read learn to use a computer in ~10 minutes, and the same child at 2 years old, still unable to read, install Ubuntu, I think that grown adults could figure it out if they wanted. Obviously there are those with physical problems with their brains, but for the bar is set pretty low for using a computer if the software is set up properly.

Re:Get rid of all these stupid useless keys

[KiloByte]

Caps Lock is a good thing if you program in C or another language that has a sane convention of having constants READABLE instead of kHardToRead.

Num Lock is indeed an abomination for about everyone I know -- except some of those people have a heathen idea it should be stuck in the "on" position. For someone who does a lot of programming -- or for a more extreme case, plays roguelikes or certain other games, it should be welded shut. For Excel jockeys, it should be welded "on".

Re:Get rid of all these stupid useless keys

[Mr. Jax]

If you turn it on in MS Excel you can scroll the sheet with the arrow keys in stead of moving the cell pointer.

Re:Get rid of all these stupid useless keys

[klparrot]

The idea is that without a Num Lock key, Num Lock would always be on, not off.

Re:Get rid of all these stupid useless keys

[houghi]

Trust me, every key is needed with the possible exception of caps and num lock.

I use the HappyHacker keyboard and that has a LOT keys less. http://houghi.org/shots/hh.jpg
So how come I am able to do the same things that other people are able to do with more keys? (Yes, even the KVM stuff)

Re:Get rid of all these stupid useless keys

[jo_ham]

A baseless, totally irrelevant, ad hominem attack that paints all of your political opponents as stupid and/or illogical. Lemme guess, Tea Partier/Republican.

(And no, I did not vote for Obama, nor am I the GP).

Re:Get rid of all these stupid useless keys

[Hyppy]

I use the HappyHacker keyboard and that has a LOT keys less. http://houghi.org/shots/hh.jpg So how come I am able to do the same things that other people are able to do with more keys? (Yes, even the KVM stuff)

KVM? Diamond-O. It's because you have an extra modifier key to hide the buttons, not because you're an amazing "hacker." Laptops have been doing the same thing for years. If we added a few more of those super-special modifier keys, I think we could get the keyboard down to about 35 keys total. How does that sound?

Re:Get rid of all these stupid useless keys

[Hyppy]

I wish I had mod points to give you.

Re:Get rid of all these stupid useless keys

[StuartHankins]

Lemme guess, Obama voter.

-1, Flamebait. Politics does not relate to this discussion. You took the time to compose a decent reply, but managed to sound like an ass in the process.

Re:Get rid of all these stupid useless keys

[Aphoxema]

    So I get a lot of people who have never typed on a keyboard before. And they get put in front of a keyboard that was designed for advanced professional word-processing business typists of the early 1980's era. A lot of them must feel like they've been abducted by space aliens, especially the ones who have come from pre-industrial cultures and have been doing 'under the table' unskilled construction labor or fruit picking.

    I would greatly help if there were only half of the keys on the PC keyboard that there are presently. And get rid of the fucking Num-lock key and the stupid Caps-Lock key!

    Please.

    I'm not kidding about this. Just do it.

There's a couple kiosks at the college I work at that have only letters arranged alphabetically, a plain numpad and an integrated trackball. When we need to do anything else with it we plug in a USB keyboard. That sounds like what an unemployment office needs.

Alternatively you could just rip the "useless" keys off a USB keyboard and replace them with blanks.

Re:Get rid of all these stupid useless keys

[maxwell demon]

All-Caps is not readable. You use all-caps for macros to make them stay out, so you don't accidentally use them as identifier (since C macros, being handled by the preprocessor, don't respect scope). Since usually C constants are really macros, some people took that convention over to real constants (like enum values), and even sometimes to other languages where there aren't macros anyway. I cannot imagine why one would do that if not forced to.

Re:Get rid of all these stupid useless keys

[thePowerOfGrayskull]

The problem then is I can't use them for arrow/home/etc any more... I only enter account numbers when testing, the rest of the time num lock is off.

Re:Get rid of all these stupid useless keys

[thePowerOfGrayskull]

Testing. which requires rapid account number entry vs programming which benefits from the arrow/home/etc keys.

Re:Get rid of all these stupid useless keys

[pz]

Some ideas that might help:

1. can you pop off the tops of the keys that you think are not useful or that are somehow distracting?

2. can you acquire the reduced-footprint keyboards that don't have the keypad extension?

If they ever get rid of caps lock

[wholestrawpenny]

I will just glue my shift key down to make you mad.

How many keys left in a few years?

[rduke15]

What is it with this crazy trend of removing useful keys??

I don't really care much about caps lock, which is only very rarely useful. But the Delete key??? How do you delete stuff (files, icons, ...) without it? How do you delete right of the cursor instead of left?

Already, Page Up/Down and Home/End are gone on many notebook keyboards, making simple stuff like select to the start/end of line (Shift-Home / Shift-End) too clumsy to be useful when you need to hold a third Fn key simultaneously. And selecting to the end of the document becomes almost impossible.

So now someone is advocating the removal of Insert/Delete?

What is the next step? The return of Bob as a geek power-user OS?

Re:How many keys left in a few years?

[RobertM1968]

But the Delete key??? How do you delete stuff (files, icons, ...) without it?

Wow... I feel spoiled that I started computers in the day when there was no mouse or even GUI. Here's what you do (assuming Windows).

- Go to the icon/file/whatever (use the mouse to right-click it) - wait for context menu
- Hit "Shift D" to permanently delete it or hit "D" to move to recycle bin

Failing having a mouse, use the keyboard to change the selection to the one you want, hit Shift-F10 to pull up it's popup menu, then follow deletion steps above.

For multiple files, you can hold shift while selecting through them... mousing to another icon with shift engaged will select first, last and all files inbetween (deletion steps using keyboard the same as above once wanted files are selected).

One can use control while clicking to toggle individual ones... (deletion steps using keyboard the same as above once wanted files are selected).

Nothing personal against you, but do "newer" computer users really not realize that virtually everything already had shortcut/combo keys that worked fine on 101 key or 84 key keyboards? Or that ones could easily be assigned for the non-standard stuff (ie: multimedia/email/crapware buttons)? All these neat new keys (Windows, Combo Menu, etc) are simply one-click duplications of keyboard shortcuts that have existed for almost 30 years. With 8 fingers and 2 thumbs, the two/three key keyboard combinations were really not difficult to begin with.

Re:How many keys left in a few years?

[rduke15]

What are you talking about? Do you suggest that the Delete key is not needed because all these file-manager specific shortcuts combined with right-click context menus and what-mot can be used instead?

Are you trying to say that a relatively standard key is not needed because every single program has it's own proprietary multi-key shortcut to accomplish the same task?

Re:How many keys left in a few years?

[hedwards]

I was annoyed when I noticed that Logitech felt the need to take off my MX5000, it was a hand me down, so I didn't gripe too much about it, but the scroll lock key is still one that has use. If they're going to take away keys, they should be taking away ones that are legitimately not used, like that blasted menu key or, well that's the only one on my keyboard that hasn't got a legitimate use. Although those Winkeys are pretty much as useless.

Re:How many keys left in a few years?

[phallstrom]

How do you delete right of the cursor instead of left?.... Already, Page Up/Down and Home/End are gone on many notebook keyboards, making simple stuff like select to the start/end of line (Shift-Home / Shift-End) too clumsy to be useful when you need to hold a third Fn key simultaneously. And selecting to the end of the document becomes almost impossible.

x, ctrl-b, ctf-f, ^, $, and G :-)

Re:How many keys left in a few years?

[RobertM1968]

What are you talking about? Do you suggest that the Delete key is not needed because all these file-manager specific shortcuts combined with right-click context menus and what-mot can be used instead?

Are you trying to say that a relatively standard key is not needed because every single program has it's own proprietary multi-key shortcut to accomplish the same task?

Of course not. The question was how does one delete files without a delete key. That is all I answered. I do not believe that anywhere I made mention of, or implication that I thought removing the delete key was a good idea.

An video on how to use the Chrome notebook

[bogaboga]

Here you go!

Using a Chrome notebook

That's a relief but we still need improvement

[commodoresloat]

I won't be happy until they bring back the NUM LOCK key!!!!!

Re:That's a relief but we still need improvement

[hedwards]

For serious, the num lock key is one I use regularly. The only time I can envision that being a reasonable design decision is if you've also nixed the 10 key portion of the keyboard for whatever reason.

Re:That's a relief but we still need improvement

[Hyppy]

Some games and applications still make use of it. To be fair, though, I haven't found one that won't allow you to re-map the functionality.

Re:That's a relief but we still need improvement

[maxwell demon]

Well, I'd be happy if the Scroll lock key were still supported well out of the box by current Linux distributions.
Yes, it doesn't have a default function, but that's exactly what makes it so useful. At least for people who know how to configure their computer.

How to kill the evil capslock key

[yelvington]

xmodmap -e "clear Lock"

If this doesn't work, get a real operating system.

Re:How to kill the evil capslock key

[OAB_X]

I use a screwdriver.

Works on fake operating systems too.

Re:How to kill the evil capslock key

[31eq]

Indeed, and here's how to do it, from the xmodmap man page:

remove Lock = Caps_Lock
remove Control = Control_L
keysym Control_L = Caps_Lock
keysym Caps_Lock = Control_L
add Lock = Caps_Lock
add Control = Control_L

That's actually not the best way, because running it twice leaves you back where you started. And sometimes you do need to re-run it, like if you plug in a USB keyboard or Gnome decides that it knows better what mapping you want. If you're on Gnome, it's best to work with it, and set this in Keyboard Preferences|Layouts|Layout Options. A .Xmodmap file in your home directory might also be respected.

There we go, a serious answer from a frivolous thread.

WHO CARES?

[bigsexyjoe]

I mean this is the second story on this amazing saga of whether the Chrome OS will have caps lock. Are any of the techies who visit this site going to buy a laptop that can only run one program (Chrome) and can't be modified?

Re:WHO CARES?

[nomadic]

They bought ipads didn't they.

Re:WHO CARES?

[jmorris42]

> Are any of the techies who visit this site going to buy a laptop that can only run one program and can't be modified?

Don't bet on that last bit. I'm totally stoked about Chrome but not because I actually want such a retarded thing. How long have we been waiting for ARM based netbooks? Just when it looked like the Year of Linux on the Netbook was here and would soon abandon the power guzzling Atom for a more sensible ARM, Wintel threw its weight around and netbooks vanished. Hint: if it isn't cheap, small, light, flash based and netcentric it ain't a netbook. What the marketing folks are branding as netbooks these days are three pounds plus and have hard hard drives loaded with Windows. Well now here comes ARM based hardware just waiting to get repurposed to running a more general purpose netbook environment. And rooted it will be, just like every Android product has been rooted.

Re:WHO CARES?

[moonbender]

Well now here comes ARM based hardware just waiting to get repurposed to running a more general purpose netbook environment.

Here? Are you talking about the Cr-48 from TFA? Because that's an Atom device, not ARM.

Re:WHO CARES?

[jmorris42]

> Because that's an Atom device, not ARM.

It is also a limited run prototype intended to seed the developer market. If Google puts a stupid Atom into the production hardware I'll lose all respect for them. It runs one application and one plugin. It is ported to ARM as is Flash. Intel hopes to someday (maybe even next year... yeah right) get idle power consumption down to under a watt. You can get some pretty nice ARM SoC solutions that top out at a watt. And that is for everything but the backlight, not just the CPU. These prototypes are three fracking pounds. If that is anything like what is going to ship Google can pack it in now and save everyone the bother.

Not to mention that if it ships with Intel Inside the pricetag is going to be right in with the modern Windows based netbooks and again, why bother? If they aren't planning to deliver them at retail to end users for $200 in WiFi or free with a 3G data plan then again, Google is far less savy than I have been giving them credit for. To hit those pricepoints ARM is the only option. Intel has no plans to offer a SoC solution anytime in the next couple of years and there are multiple ARM based solutions shipping that have CPU+GPU+3G+WiFi+Bluetooth+Power on the same chip and you can get SoC+RAM+FLASH on a very small module.

Re:WHO CARES?

[polle404]

"And rooted it will be
For thee, Slashdot, for thee.
Power hath descended forth from ARM's hand
Our netbooks may swiftly carry out *nix commands.
So we shall flow data forth to Thee
And teeming with nerddom shall it ever be.
In Nomeni data Et IP, et CromeOS Sancti."

Sorry, just had to do that.

Re:WHO CARES?

[rdnetto]

Try this one: http://www.alwaysinnovating.com/home/index.htm
ARM, completely open, choice of several OSs out of the box, and it weighs 3 lbs
Not sure what you mean by flash based though.

How would you ever turn it off?

[lawpoop]

I wish it could be banished (along with the Insert/Delete pair) to a hard-to-fumble-upon switch on the bottom of the keyboard or laptop.

The only thing that will change it make it hard to turn off, so that we'll have users going for months with their caps lock on because they can't find where to switch it back.

Re:How would you ever turn it off?

[Hyppy]

The only thing that will change it make it hard to turn off, so that we'll have users going for months with their caps lock on because they can't find where to switch it back.

That would be a significant deviation from today... how, exactly?

Wait, this doesn't work on the iPad version

[WillAffleckUW]

How the heck do I do that?

There are better things to "banish"

[markdavis]

>"If there must be such a thing as a Caps Lock key on conventional keyboards, I wish it could be banished (along with the Insert/Delete pair) to a hard-to-fumble-upon switch on the bottom of the keyboard or laptop."

There are many reasons one might need or want a Caps-lock key and it doesn't and shouldn't be hidden away. I often need one when coding and doing certain types of data entry. I certainly find it a lot more valuable than the apparently mandated, non-standard, changing, "my this" and "my that" keys that appear all over the place. And what do you have against the del/ins keys??? They are very valuable in word processing and editors.

If you are so hot to banish a key, it should be the damn NumLock key, which has caused nothing but stress and anger in the 30 years I have been using computers. Any modern keyboard that has both a keypad and cursor/ins/del/pgup/down keys should be mapped so they stay the way they were meant to be used and not mysteriously changed when using vnc, a different Xserver, in some emulator, moving to a different VT, etc. Or perhaps the seemingly-mandated "MS-Windows" keys, which should be something generic that doesn't insult everyone who uses some other operating system on their computer.

Speak for yourself!

[Coolhand2120]

How do you switch your cursor from insert to overwrite mode? How do you delete characters on the right hand side of the cursor? How would you easily delete a line via keyboard (CTRL+DELETE).

What about ctrl+delete (cut)
what about ctrl+insert (paste)
What about CTRL+ALT+DELETE?

Did you actually think about how others use the keys before you so cavalierly decided to banish a key? And why pick on insert delete when there is so much more low hanging fruit? Why not pick on F9-F12? Scroll lock?! Or the duplicated forward slashes or pipe key? Who uses tilde or grave!? And I guess we couldn't get rid of one set or the other of the windows keys?

Personally, I cannot dispense with a single key for me or my clients. If I'm on a support call the last thing I want to hear is "I don't have a delete key" –

“Oh they can right click on the task bar!”

No! They cannot, there is no taskbar!.
You might as well upload a virus that prevents you from accessing the windows task manager. Please let's think about the children, they'll be supporting windows XP until they die, let’s give them a easy way to log on to the machine.

I hope all these forward thinking kids think about the repercussions of their actions before we end up with a crappy cell phone keyboard hooked up to a Cray 32.

Re:Speak for yourself!

[Hatta]

How do you switch your cursor from insert to overwrite mode?

R

How do you delete characters on the right hand side of the cursor?

dh

How would you easily delete a line via keyboard

dd

Re:Speak for yourself!

[Hatta]

I don't know my left from my right.

Re:Speak for yourself!

[h4rr4r]

x is the key you were looking for.

Re:Speak for yourself!

[OldJuke]

And why pick on insert delete when there is so much more low hanging fruit? Why not pick on F9-F12? Scroll lock?! Or the duplicated forward slashes or pipe key?

Don't need pipe key??? How do you suggest I use an OR condition (x || y) in most programming languages?

Re:Speak for yourself!

[Feinu]

Did you actually think about how others use the keys before you so cavalierly decided to banish a key? And why pick on insert delete when there is so much more low hanging fruit? Why not pick on F9-F12? Scroll lock?! Or the duplicated forward slashes or pipe key? Who uses tilde or grave!? And I guess we couldn't get rid of one set or the other of the windows keys?

Personally, I cannot dispense with a single key for me or my clients.

I agree fully with keys being indispensable. But even removing the "low hanging fruit" is likely to make a lot of people very angry:
F10: used in many games to bring up the menu.
F11: very common shortcut key for switching an application to fullscreen.
Scroll lock: occasionally useful to pause the pages of text running through your console (Linux). On windows I remap it as a PTT button on my mouse, but that's just cause it's the least likely button to interfere with games. Second most likely key to be banished.
Forward slashes: left one is for typing/coding. You may notice the right hand one is part of a calculator-like arrangement. It is definitely useful.
Pipe key: Mainly used in coding environments. On my keyboard it's shift-\, so if you're using a Microsoft OS, I wouldn't recommend dumping it since you may need it to type paths.
Tilde/grave: Non-English languages, programming.
Windows keys: If you absolutely must drop a key, the right hand windows key will have to go.

tl;dr - all keys are used by somebody, so lets not go dumping keys just because we don't use it.

Re:Speak for yourself!

[houghi]

Personally, I cannot dispense with a single key for me or my clients. If I'm on a support call the last thing I want to hear is "I don't have a delete key"

I would hate to be your customer as I apparently not have the same keyboard as you do. No numeric keypad and not some other keys. Yes, sometimes I see programs that want you to use the numeric keys and no way to change it.
I also do not have the double /, so I hope your programs do not use them differently.

I could also program using the following keyboard and say that YOU do not have enough keys:
http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4833&stc=1&d=1254255319

Re:Speak for yourself!

[Eskarel]

I agree with you about not removing keys, I don't use capslock much, but when I do I'd never want to be rid of it.

That said, try CTRL-SHIFT-ESC for you clients, it opens the task manager up directly and I've found that it will continue to work at times when CTR-ALT-DEL doesn't. Not that I encounter those freezes all that often since I ditched that abomination known as XP, but it's still pretty useful. Made my support duties a lot easier back in the day.

Re:Speak for yourself!

[paradxum]

Did you actually <i>think</i> about how <i>others</i> use the keys before you so cavalierly decided to banish a key? And why pick on insert delete when there is so much more low hanging fruit? Why not pick on F9-F12? Scroll lock?! Or the duplicated forward slashes or pipe key? Who uses tilde or grave!? And I guess we couldn't get rid of one set or the other of the windows keys?
  </quote>

whoa whoa whoa .... leave my home reference (tilde) and inline execution (grave) key alone!!!! or there will be blood. =)

Re:Speak for yourself!

[Coolhand2120]

I mistyped, I knows it's shift and not ctrl. Also, I use XCV for clipboard, but I know of the shift+del combo and I know people who use it. I love highlight to the end of line, move to end of line, etc. Couldn't get by without them.

Re:Speak for yourself!

[Coolhand2120]

Thanks for the CTRL+SHIFT+ESC, I didn't know that. We all need to support XP at some time, it's everywhere. Look at Iran's nuclear plants heh. I'll bet they'll use that CTRL+SHIFT+ESC combo a lot!

Re:Speak for yourself!

[Coolhand2120]

Something tells me you're not going to be making support calls that involve the phrase "OK, to start task manager..". You don’t seem like the type that would even make a call for technical support.

I apparently not have the same keyboard as you do.

I certainly hope not! And if you are using my keyboard I would ask that you stop leaving crumbs between the keys! Now, why on earth do you have a keyboard without a keypad? Do you want to have no keypad or are you forced to have no keypad? Are you using a laptop or smartphone? I can only imagine you suffer for the lack of keys.

I also do not have the double /, so I hope your programs do not use them differently.

I'm a web programmer so "my" programs are whatever browser you're using, I cannot dictate what one flavor of ECMA will do with a keyboard layout vs. another. That said, I try to only implement the most common keys becuase I hope more people will have thoes keys.

I could also program using the following keyboard and say that YOU do not have enough keys:

You could? Heh, well I agree, I want more keys. I wish I had a keyboard that had every ASCII symbol, just because a full Unicode keyboard might look silly big. But for "regular people" I think the 101 standard keys are indispensable at this point because they are always expected to be there (by programmers) at every layer of human interaction. How would you get into some BIOSs without the DEL key?

Re:Speak for yourself!

[Coolhand2120]

I would not remove any keys. I just wondered why the guy went after DEL and INSERT. I mean why not the letter "K"?! DEL and INSERT are surely more often used than scroll lock. I know a lot of the great things the keys I called "low hanging fruit" do, and I would never remove them - I only wish I had more of them, I want F13-F100! Maybe a full ASCII keyboard would be nice. EOL, EOF, BELL, ANK the whole gang, one per key, none of this SHIFT CTRL or ATL+1234 shit. I was thinking unicode at first, but that may be too big.

Re:Speak for yourself!

[Coolhand2120]

Don't need pipe key??? How do you suggest I use an OR condition (x || y) in most programming languages?

As I said in my post: I cannot dispense with a single key. I do need pipe, and tilde and grave and F9-F12. I just wondered why the author wanted to get rid of DEL or INSERT over say the SPACEBAR. I cannot get by without DEL or INSERT or any of the other keys I called "low hanging fruit".

Re:Speak for yourself!

[Coolhand2120]

You're a very silly man and I'm not going to interview you.

Re:Speak for yourself!

[Eskarel]

Can't remember where I discovered it, but it's a god send, for some reason XP can freeze out ctrl-alt-del, but that'll still work.

DUMBASS IDEA, EYE NEED CAPSLOCK.

[DoninIN]

No, really, I use it frequently. Not just to post inane l33tspeak to the interwebs either. I mean I really do use the thing as part of my daily life. I deal with a few hundred part numbers, many of them are long numbers, sprinkled with letters in there.. My left hand hit the caps lock and my right hand jumps to the numpad and I'm pecking out E5-FU7-Z009A001 etc for a few lines... Natural, easy. The way the keyboard has been used for... Well decades, getting rid of the caps lock is even dumber than adding "windows" keys and whatever other crap we added to go from 101 to 10-Whatever we're at now. Key combinations are more suited for those extra functions.

Re:DUMBASS IDEA, EYE NEED CAPSLOCK.

[geekoid]

I am in a similar situation. What really pains me is basically the CAPS lock key is being used to sole a software problem. If the software was worth a damn, it would do it automatically. The stuff I write does, that's for damn sure.

Re:DUMBASS IDEA, EYE NEED CAPSLOCK.

[Neil Boekend]

There are a few options:
1. The software you are using should have an option to set part numbers to upper case. It's useful and easy to implement.
2. The part numbers could only contain lowercase

Re:DUMBASS IDEA, EYE NEED CAPSLOCK.

[houghi]

You could have the ability to be case insensitive software.
Unless E5-FU7-Z009A001 and e5-fu7-z009a001 are different part numbers why should it matter how you enter it? Software should make your life easier. Not you making it easier for the software(-programmer).

Re:DUMBASS IDEA, EYE NEED CAPSLOCK.

[31eq]

Or you could learn to use your accessibility settings.

P erfer

[geekoid]

this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lm-Vnx58UYo&NR=1

Probably because of the fire, nitrogen and conveyor belt.

Obligatory Quote Reference...

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.bash.org/?835030

Need new keys

[Ichijo]

We need keys for the "cents", "degree", "multiplication" and "division" symbols, and a shift-tab key to tab backwards through form fields.

And when web browsers properly implement multicolumn text (where columns are added and removed as needed based on the browser window size), we'll need "Page Left" and "Page Right" keys.

And how often do non-programmers need the "carot" symbol, the "pipe" symbol, or curly braces? Get a programmer's keyboard if you need those.

And it would be nice if Apple and Microsoft could agree on the meanings of the "Home" and "End" keys.

Re:Need new keys

[h4rr4r]

Cents is $.00
Degree is not needed 110F is fine.
Multiplication is *.
Division is /.
Did you never notice the numpad looks just like calculator 10 key?

The rest of your comment is just as silly.

Re:Need new keys

[SEE]

Menu-shift-4, menu-0, menu-x, menu-shift-x, and shift-tab.

Re:Need new keys

[Ichijo]

Cents is $.00

No, that's 0 dollars and 0 cents.

Degree is not needed 110F is fine.

That's just a workaround we've had to use because of the lack of a "degrees" key.

Multiplication is *.

No, that's an asterisk used by programmers in place of the multiplication symbol.

Division is /.

No, that's a forward slash used by programmers in place of the division symbol.

Did you never notice the numpad looks just like calculator 10 key?

Then they should put the × and ÷ there!

The rest of your comment is just as silly.

It's quite common for people to make fun of things they don't understand. Slashdot is often above that, but evidently not always.

Re:Need new keys

[rossdee]

"Degree is not needed 110F is fine"

The way to make sure the degree symbol is not needed is to have everyone switch to using Kelvins.

Oh and if your talking outside temperature, 316.5K is too fscking hot.

Re:Need new keys

[Belial6]

The / isn't a key used by programmers in place of the division symbol, it is the symbol used to indicate a fraction. As in 1/2 = .5 and 4/2 = 2. Using an angled slash is not entirely uncommon even when writing fraction with pen and paper. Now since there is no proper division symbol, and division problems can be written as fractions, that is what is used. It is the same as using $0.35 to say 35 cents. They are the same thing, even if one is more cumbersome than the other. This doesn't argue for or against the keys, just that the / is not an arbitrarily chosen symbol. It is mathematically correct.

Re:Need new keys

[Ichijo]

The / isn't a key used by programmers in place of the division symbol, it is the symbol used to indicate a fraction.

No, the symbol used to indicate a fraction is the solidus.

Re:Need new keys

[Ichijo]

For example, double x = 4.0 * foo;

Like I said, the * is used by programmers because the multiplication symbol doesn't exist on keyboards.

As for the "cents" symbol, it just seems to be antiquated.

It's only antiquated because it's difficult to enter in.

Assign it a long press for caps on/off?

[spectrum-]

Not too sure how to achieve this (well depends on OS I suppose) but maybe a setting could be implemented that caps lock only activates/deactivates after a long press - say 3 to 4 seconds. Now unless you want to wRiTe iN a MaNiC wAy - it should be less annoying for those who are bothered by accidentally pressing it now and again. Far more irritating for me personally, is accidental press against the trackpad on my laptop causing cursor focus to change or browser "back" to occur causing loss of whatever form I happen to be filling in.

Re:Delete and insert

[h4rr4r]

dw, way faster then all that mess.

So you recommend the Apple Wireless Keyboard?

[rsborg]

I would greatly help if there were only half of the keys on the PC keyboard that there are presently. And get rid of the fucking Num-lock key and the stupid Caps-Lock key!

It seems like the most widely distributed low-keycount keyboard.

Darn you right handers!

[shrubsky]

From the original poster: "...I wish it could be banished (along with the Insert/Delete pair)..." If you wish for the Insert and Delete keys to be banished, you must be right handed. We left handers, who use a mouse in our left hands, enjoy using the Ctrl+Insert, Shift+Insert, and Shift+Delete key combos for copy, paste, and cut. It's hard to do Ctrl+V with your right hand. Or maybe you just use VI.

Oh well...

[PortHaven]

I hate the CAPS LOCK key. Always bumping it. On some computers it's huge, even the biggest key. WTF

Why does the most annoying key have to be huge.

Re:Oh well...

[geekoid]

Man can't properly use keyboard, whines. News at 11:05.

Is this you at work:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoQx2eKeXVs

CRUISE CONTROL

[jamesh]

CAPSLOCK. It's like CRUISE CONTROL for AWESOME!

Better idea

[uvajed_ekil]

If there must be such a thing as a Caps Lock key on conventional keyboards, I wish it could be banished (along with the Insert/Delete pair) to a hard-to-fumble-upon switch on the bottom of the keyboard or laptop.

Yeah, if you remove the CAPS LOCK key from your keyboard, you could save enough space to add a key. If I had one, it would have been used to type the sentence before this one.

What about one-handed people?

[KarlIsNotMyName]

Seriously. People incapable of using both hands at once, how are they going to manage comfortably typing all the capital letters without caps-lock?

Too many seem to only think of how they themselves use something an assume the entire world needs only that.

Re:What about one-handed people?

[Gadget_Guy]

People incapable of using both hands at once, how are they going to manage comfortably typing all the capital letters without caps-lock?

Those people can use Sticky Keys for all the modifier keys (including Shift).

Re:What about one-handed people?

[dargaud]

Seriously. People incapable of using both hands at once, how are they going to manage to give real orgasms to their girlfriend once they come out of their mom's basement?

Fixed that for you. OK, I'll be exiting the premises now...

Want an ARM notebook? Try Toshiba AC100

[IYagami]

Powered by a nVidia Tegra 2 processor and a special version of Android.

However, reviews haven't been kind on it:
http://www.reghardware.com/2010/11/03/review_netbook_toshiba_ac100/
10/100
"The beautifully designed and executed hardware is very close to my ideal netbook, and it's hardly an exaggeration to say that I'm heart-broken by Toshiba's cocked-up Android implementation. The best one can hope for is a firmware rescue from the open source community, although I wonder if the product will stay around long enough in these tablet-obsessed times for that to happen."

http://www.techradar.com/reviews/pc-mac/laptops-portable-pcs/laptops-and-netbooks/toshiba-ac100-721195/review?artc_pg=4
2.5/5
Verdict
"If you want a device for carrying the web around with you, and you don't want a tablet and can't be bothered with a Windows 7 powered netbok, then the AC100 may be for you.
There's no denying it works and that you can browse the internet on it, but it's how it goes about doing this that most disappoints.
Especially as the AC100 could have been great, it still has lots going for it – the most crucial being excellent portability.
For us, however, the poor implementation of Android 2.1 remains a deal breaker."

Touch typing, anyone?

[dshk]

It is hard to believe that most people on Slashdot cannot touch type, even after several years of work with computers. If you have learnt touch typing, then it would be obvious that Caps Lock is very useful while writing code. I have to admit, however, that the usual keyboard was difficult for me too. If you are like me, look at a Kinesis Advantage keyboard, it took me only 10 minutes, literally, to start touch typing.
And yes, the delete key on the usual keyboard is also on the wrong place, but for god sake, do not remove it, just put it into the right place.

Re:Touch typing, anyone?

[dshk]

I would add, that the problem with the delete key is not that it is near to the Insert key. It is one of the most frequently used button, but it is usually placed very far from the base line (asdf jkl;). Of course 100 years ago there were no Delete key at all, so it has no standard place. But again, look at Kinesis Ergo, the four most easily accessed keys are Backspace, Delete, Enter and Space.

Re:Touch typing, anyone?

[maxwell demon]

If you have learnt touch typing, then it would be obvious that Caps Lock is very useful while writing code.

Depends on the code you write (and your coding conventions). I very rarely need to type sequences of uppercase characters.

Re:Touch typing, anyone?

[dshk]

Maybe I use more capitals than others, for example in documentation in a section header. However, Java, C, C++, PHP,... all use capital letters in constant names (I am not sure in PHP). At least 50% of people writing code, probably much more, work with a language which regularly use all capital names. Nowdays I switch on Caps Lock if I write more then 3 or 4 capital letters. Repeatedly switching between left and right shifts while writing a longer word is a pain.

Re:Touch typing, anyone?

[maxwell demon]

I know for sure that neither C nor C++ require capital letters in constant names, and I'm pretty sure the C++ standard library doesn't contain a single constant in uppercase (macros excluded). Using all-uppercase in constant names is just a (IMNSHO bad) convention used by some(!) people. I'm also pretty sure that Java doesn't require constants to be uppercase (but I don't know if there are uppercase constants in the standard library).

Double tap the shift key

[headbulb]

Double tapping the shift key turns on caps lock, tapping again turns off caps lock.
Just like it does on android phones. It's really simple and gets rid of that extra not needed key.

They didn't get rid of the caps lock key they just made shift do double duty.

Re:Double tap the shift key

[geekoid]

yes, lets add more keystrokes, good thinking. There are people theater literally monitored by keystrokes, and adding a keystroke slows them down, noticeable. I know data entry operators who basically work 8 hours typing 100+ words a minute. Adding a key stroke impacts them.

IBM Model M

[Kaenneth]

I like to say "A model M is the only keyboard you can use to kill a man; then type his obituary."

I really like to say that, at least once a month.

Re:IBM Model M

[RobertM1968]

Nice!

there is a perfect keyboard.

[input.expert]

there is a perfect keyboard. the design is done. patent is pending. from the “father of the perfect keyboard”.

Happy Hacking

[djupdal]

This is obviously something geeks care about, there are more comments in here than in the china blocking nobel price story.

My keyboard philosophy is "more is less". I want to reach all keys from touch position and need a keyboard that provides that: Happy Hacking Keyboard. Not only is it much faster because I dont need to move my hands much. It also takes up much less space on my desk. Combined with emacs, this is the most powerful user input method I know of.

I never use caps-lock, but if I have to I have a two-key combo that enables it. A special key on the home row for caps lock is just stupid.

The French

[ocularsinister]

The French will be quite annoyed if you get rid of caps lock as their numbers are all in the shift position making caps lock pretty much mandatory if you are entering long numbers.

Re:The French

[rthille]

Weird. I can't test it now (I've got Caps-Lock physically rewired as Control on this keyboard), but I swear that Caps-Lock was more of an Alpha-Lock, and didn't affect punctuation keys. But then again, I guess that depends on the software.

Don't forget SHIFT-DELETE for 'cut'

[Joce640k]

Trifecta is complete (and much easier to type than CTRL-C etc., I always seem to end up typing CTRL-C when I meant CTRL-V and vice-versa.

Re:Don't forget SHIFT-DELETE for 'cut'

[cyclomedia]

Having spent a zillion years being paid to press buttons on windows boxen my right hand spends a fair amount of time on the mouse and my left poised, pinky over the CRTL/Shift area, other digits ready to hit X,C,V (cut, copy,paste) A (select all) Z (undo) and Y (redo). When you're shifting things around they're all really handy

The only use for Caps Lock......

[Soul-Burn666]

Is adding diacritics in Hebrew, which (on Windows) is done by shift-1 to shift-0 while Caps Lock is activated.
When I want to write in all-caps, I simply hold the shift for the whole process. It's not that hard!

Re:The only use for Caps Lock......

[geekoid]

Yes, it's all about you. you you you. If thats how you use a keyboard, then everyone uses it that way. Try doing high performance data entry work like that.
Please think.

Re:The only use for Caps Lock......

[Soul-Burn666]

I can't think of a situation in which I would need to enter a large amount of all-caps data. For sporadic use of capitalized words, holding the shift button is not slower than clicking caps-lock, entering the word and clicking caps-lock again.

If anything, I many times click it by mistake and it drives me crazy. For my keyboard at work, I stuck some paper under the button so it doesn't click easily - less chance of clicking it by mistake.

Stupid decision in the first place

[anomaly256]

People who get worked up because someone used all-caps are idiots. It's just fonts and typing.. so what? It's not the same as someone yelling in your ears, and if your poor eyes are hurt by it then maybe you should avoid reading altogether. To try to police such a thing, is several orders of magnitude more idiotic. GG Google.

"works", yah

[RichiH]

> Shift-Ctrl-C and -V usually work in X terminals, though.

So does memorizing the whole thing and typing it out again. Shift-Insert is an extremely fast & convenient way to paste.

And as someone who is always surfing on the fringes of RSI, I don't like anything that requires me to bunch together three fingers, turn the hand and then press. It's a small thing, but over time, it's noticeable.

Useless keys aren't useless!

[anyanka]

Yes! The Caps Lock key is clearly wonderful – as a control key. Can't say I've ever used the right control key, but that's probably personal taste. The Windows key as well; I can't understand why Linux desktop environments always map the window manager actions to Ctrl or Alt, often conflicting with applications, instead of using the otherwise useless Windows key – at least as a easily chosen option. The most annoying key ever is Shift-4 on Scandinavian keyboards, mapped to the useless currency symbol () instead of the dollar sign (which is much harder to reach at AltGr-4).

If I could choose my keyboard layout...

[Anonymous Coward]

... I'd get rid of the windows keys, as I need decently-sized control and alt. I'd probably repurpose caps lock for compose or something, though on my current keyboard I used a different spare key for that. Amazing how the right shift is positively huge but especially on laptops control and alt are stupidly small because of a few hateful keys I never use.

Thanks. [was: delete key? what?]

[eugene ts wong]

Thank you for sharing Crtl-Ins and Shift-Ins with us. I have been using Linux for over 10 years, and never have heard of such a thing. Talk about well kept usability secrets!

Re:First they came...

[Anonymous Coward]

What happened to them?

I am curious

[dorinmouss]

if IE9 will defeat Chrome or not :)

Hard to find switch

[morgauxo]

"I wish it could be banished (along with the Insert/Delete pair) to a hard-to-fumble-upon switch on the bottom of the keyboard or laptop."

Why, so people will turn it on once and never bother to turn it off?

the anger button

[tomcode]

Caps lock should be activated automatically when your blood pressure rises above a threshold level.

My wife uses Caps Lock

[calderra]

Everyone does realize that backspace and delete actually have different functions, right? This keeps getting passed over. Backspace erases before the cursor, delete erases after. Forget key combos, both keys have very important functions as they stand. If you want to delete text, you only have to land somewhere in the block instead of clicking at one pre-specified end. Click the middle, backspace a few times, delete the rest, boom. Very convenient. My wife never learned what the Shift key was for until well after she'd learned to type in school. She'd needed a cap, one key said cap on it, logically she pressed the caps key and went from there. To this day, she still thinks of Shift as a punctuation key and Caps Lock as the caps key. She types 60+wpm like that, and it's hard to argue against. If I had learned to type that way, coding would probably be easier. My shift fingers could use some variety.

NeXT did this right...

[rthille]

The key to the left of 'A' (US English Keyboard) was Control, not Caps-Lock. Caps-Lock was activated/deactivated with Command-Shift. Caps-Lock as a key in such prime real estate on the keyboard is idiotic.

Religious wars

[RockDoctor]

The only thing preventing this from being as pathetic as a "my god has a smaller dick than your god" religious war, is that it is so pathetic.

1. to those who want to use a "standard" keyboard : there ain't no such animal. There isn't a standard layout of the physical keys, and there ain't a standard mapping between the patterns on the key-caps and the glyphs drawn on the screen. Fucking live with it. (Anyone who normally uses a non-US keyboard will of course be utterly familiar with this. My pet bug bear is finding that today's machine has been ghosted back to out-of-the factory condition and has a US keyboard mapping on a UK pattern of key-caps. Dell, you're a bunch of useless fuckwits!)
2. If you can't break your company-mandated security policy to set the keyboard the way you want it to behave, hand your geek card in at the door as you leave.

Pathetic discussion.