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College Students Lack Scientific Literacy

An anonymous reader writes with news of research into the scientific literacy of college biology students. Earlier studies found that students tended to "rely on mainly informal reasoning derived from their personal experiences," so the researchers derived a new instructional framework that explicitly taught principle-based reasoning. While the number of students who used this method did increase, more than half continued to use informal reasoning, which the researchers say points to a flaw in the way biology is taught (PDF). "Most college-level instruction presents students with complicated narratives about the details of key processes (e.g., cellular respiration), but does not explicitly reinforce the use of key principles to connect those processes. Therefore, students are understandably occupied with memorizing details of processes without focusing on the principles that govern and connect the processes. ... As a result, students may leave an introductory biology course with the ability to recite the reactions in the Calvin cycle but still believing that plants obtain most of their mass from the soil rather than from the atmosphere, that plants photosynthesize but do not respire, or that the mass of a decomposing organism will primarily return to the soil."

382 comments

  1. College Students Lack by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    literacy AND numeracy.

    They don't lack Facebook.

    Yours In Novosibirsk,
    K. Trout

    1. Re:College Students Lack by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The concept of not having mass primarily return to the soil on death is a bit shocking to those who "learned" otherwise.

      Thinking different could lead to innovative new urban legends, like humans vaporizing in one final gigantic burst of flatulence. From there the theory could be extended to describe planets turning into stars.

      Beware the gas giant.

    2. Re:College Students Lack by ByOhTek · · Score: 1

      Thinking different could lead to innovative new urban legends, like humans vaporizing in one final gigantic burst of flatulence.

      Man, that happened to me this morning, cleared out the house. Wonder what I ate?

      --
      Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
  2. Early Development by Sonny+Yatsen · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Kids get discouraged way too early in their school lives. From their peers, their teachers and their parents, they get the message that science and math is boring and hard, and they take that to college. That's why in math classes, you might find a person that can perfectly integrate a function, but be utterly unable to describe what integration actually does. Science and math has become just an algorithm to them: If you follow X steps, then you will get the answer, then you will path the class.

    --
    My postings are informational and does not constitute legal advice. Act on it at your risk.
    1. Re:Early Development by Sonny+Yatsen · · Score: 1

      path=pass. Clearly, I didn't pass spelling.

      --
      My postings are informational and does not constitute legal advice. Act on it at your risk.
    2. Re:Early Development by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      Don't worry, you'll still get a grade of 110% just for trying.

    3. Re:Early Development by I8TheWorm · · Score: 5, Insightful

      A huge problem with that is getting qualified (and hopefully excited) teachers in those fields. If people do well in math or science, they tend to go into higher paying jobs rather than into teaching. What happens then is the math or science teaching vacancy goes to the newly hired teacher with a general knowledge and an education degree, they're handed the book and curriculum, and told to teach.

      It's my contention that those who have a nice career and a deep knowledge of math and/or science should consider spending the last few years working as a (fully qualified) teacher.

      --
      Saying Android is a family of phones is akin to saying Linux is a family of PCs.
    4. Re:Early Development by 0123456 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's my contention that those who have a nice career and a deep knowledge of math and/or science should consider spending the last few years working as a (fully qualified) teacher.

      A while back I was reading an article by someone (engineer, I think) who looked at doing that. Then they discovered they'd have to take numerous training courses to prove they could teach kids about what they'd been doing for years and decided they had better things to do with their life.

      If you really want better teachers in schools, you could start by eliminating all the roadblocks that keep them out.

    5. Re:Early Development by turtledawn · · Score: 1

      Why exactly would I want to spend my time - especially my time right before I retire - dealing with the idiots who get promoted out of teaching and into administration? I'd rather work retail again; at least there are objective standards in that field.

      --
      Uh, "if it looks roughly mouse-shaped according to my infra-red sensitive pit, eat it"? --Chris Burke 09-08-10
    6. Re:Early Development by Sonny+Yatsen · · Score: 5, Interesting

      In a lot of other countries with a much better education system, teachers are recruited from the top of the graduating classes and are given incentives to go and teach. I wish that's something we could implement in the US for education reform rather than grading teachers on how effective they are at teaching their kids how to take a specific test.

      --
      My postings are informational and does not constitute legal advice. Act on it at your risk.
    7. Re:Early Development by Alumoi · · Score: 1

      And that's how it should be. The system needs drones, not people who can think for themselves.

    8. Re:Early Development by peragrin · · Score: 1

      Well that and no one bothers to teach them what integration actually does. I know my high school calculus courses missed a whole bunch of useful stuff.

      Then again I was always that student who could get A's and B's by showing up to class without studying or ever taking notes and fly through the tests. We really need a way to teach the gifted children in a different manor than the dumb ones who need it repeated twenty times.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    9. Re:Early Development by wonkavader · · Score: 1

      Certainly the system wants drones. "Want" != "need", but generally "want" == "what you get".

    10. Re:Early Development by doconnor · · Score: 5, Funny

      Spelling is boring and hard and kids get discouraged from writing way too early in their school lives.

    11. Re:Early Development by I8TheWorm · · Score: 1

      What's sad is even when I was in school we were being taught problem solving (rather than memorization), but the tests you're talking about have eliminated that. Instead, they're taught how to pass the tests throughout the year until they take the test.

      --
      Saying Android is a family of phones is akin to saying Linux is a family of PCs.
    12. Re:Early Development by noidentity · · Score: 1

      I think you mean computer science, you know, the class where you learn to type.

    13. Re:Early Development by Have+Brain+Will+Rent · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I've met some very bright and talented teachers but I have to say that on the whole teachers do not seem to be the cream of the crop, or even the whole milk... maybe non-fortified skim would be about right. The teachers here are very well paid. They don't seem to have much facility with logic and seem, well, woefully uneducated. It might help if they also had to complete an actual degree in something other than teaching.

      I don't see teaching to tests as a problem... if the tests are well thought out.

      --
      The tyrant will always find a pretext for his tyranny - Aesop
    14. Re:Early Development by Infiniti2000 · · Score: 1

      A huge problem with that is getting qualified (and hopefully excited) teachers in those fields. If people do well in math or science, they tend to go into higher paying jobs rather than into teaching. What happens then is the math or science teaching vacancy goes to the newly hired teacher with a general knowledge and an education degree, they're handed the book and curriculum, and told to teach.

      Doing not as well in math doesn't mean that the teachers would excite the students less. In fact, good teachers should do just the opposite, regardless of whether they teach their best subject. The teachers need to learn the best approach to reach the kids and that means getting them excited, and thus interested in, the material. The curriculum, if it's set by someone other than the teacher, should go a long way to doing that. Unfortunately, that's a big should and it's what's missing.

    15. Re:Early Development by slapout · · Score: 2

      I feel the same way about my math education. I feel I was taught the how, but not the why -- how to plug things into a formula rather than how the formula came to be and want it means.

      --
      Coder's Stone: The programming language quick ref for iPad
    16. Re:Early Development by hedwards · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yes, but in college I had a faculty member in genetics, the man definitely knew his stuff, but as a teacher he was more or less a complete flop. Yes, the requirements do need to be reasonable, but just because somebody knows their field doesn't mean that they're qualified to teach. I know that there's this common conception that teaching is easy if you know how to do the tasks, but that's really not true.

      The point is, that having to demonstrate capability exists for a reason. Sure it is cumbersome and probably could use a modernization and culling of some of the requirements, but it's there to try and minimize the cases where teachers are thrown into a classroom environment without being able to teach.

    17. Re:Early Development by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you mean computer science, you know, the class where you learn to type

      That's actually true, but not in the way that article meant. From majoring in Computer Science, and developing for a living, I went from typing 20 wpm to 60 wpm.

    18. Re:Early Development by Beardo+the+Bearded · · Score: 2

      Why bother spelling write when ewe just get red squiggly lines under each tpyo?

      Spelling correctly is just a right-lick a way.

      --

      ---
      ECHELON is a government program to find words like bomb, jihad, plutonium, assassinate, and anarchy.
    19. Re:Early Development by hedwards · · Score: 1

      Which countries are these? Yes, our education system sucks, but we are still ahead of most other countries in the ways that count. People come to that conclusion reading headlines, but the reality is that our students get compared against the top students in other countries, not a representative sampling.

      Meaning that it would be a bit like us comparing our APP students against our students in general. Of course we end up looking stupid, if there's any validity at all in the assessments they're making to make the decision about who to allow into advanced classes it should be that way.

      If we were really in trouble in that respect, then why is it that other countries are trying to make their system more like ours? I'll give you a hint, it's not a vote of sympathy for us.

    20. Re:Early Development by y_axis · · Score: 2

      We really need a way to teach the gifted children in a different manor than the dumb ones who need it repeated twenty times.

      I don't think the gifted children would care whether they were taught in a different manor, or in a regular school building with all the other kids.

    21. Re:Early Development by Yvanhoe · · Score: 1
      --
      The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
    22. Re:Early Development by I8TheWorm · · Score: 1

      I suppose the detail I left out, and saw personally back then and with my children now, is that the teachers thrown at math and science don't tend to understand the subjects very well.

      That leads to inability to explain problems/solutions or to add the detail to explanations that help us all actually learn material.

      --
      Saying Android is a family of phones is akin to saying Linux is a family of PCs.
    23. Re:Early Development by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My best teacher in high school was building roads (digging ditches), before he went back to school to become a teacher. Sometimes you need experience outside of school to teach people, mainly because real life is not in books, it is ouside of school, sounds corny but its true. Most of the fresh graduates I get I have to re-teach anyways.

    24. Re:Early Development by Seumas · · Score: 3, Insightful

      In the US, people who think rationally and value knowledge and critical thinking are considered "elitists" and derided. Just talking properly will probably get the occasional "what are you, a homo?!" thrown at you. Then there's the whole typical US rationality (which is probably more global, but what do I know?) of things like "I can't imagine a world where god doesn't exist; therefore, god exists".

      Also, I remember finally being so thoroughly depressed by high school that I just gave up. The specific cause in question was that my freshman science curriculum was the same "Earth Science" book that we had used in fifth grade.

      Anyway, in this country, we have a saying - "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach."

    25. Re:Early Development by Seumas · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Government has learned that teaching you to think critically doesn't help them, but teaching you the joys of obeying authority figures does.

    26. Re:Early Development by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A huge problem with that is getting qualified (and hopefully excited) teachers in those fields. If people do well in math or science, they tend to go into higher paying jobs rather than into teaching. What happens then is the math or science teaching vacancy goes to the newly hired teacher with a general knowledge and an education degree, they're handed the book and curriculum, and told to teach.

      It's my contention that those who have a nice career and a deep knowledge of math and/or science should consider spending the last few years working as a (fully qualified) teacher.

      I agree that we need qualified teachers but it'd also help if the local community and school boards got out of the way and actually allowed teachers to TEACH science. There continues to be huge pressure, in the Mid-West US in particular, to stifle the teaching of evolution for instance. Kids come to school indoctrinated against science and teachers must spend their time countering that instead of teaching the basics.

    27. Re:Early Development by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We really need a way to teach the gifted children in a different manor

      I take it that you weren't one of those gifted children.

    28. Re:Early Development by nomadic · · Score: 1

      In the US, people who think rationally and value knowledge and critical thinking are considered "elitists" and derided.

      You really think people look down on doctors and scientists?

      Just talking properly will probably get the occasional "what are you, a homo?!" thrown at you.

      Dude, you seriously have to move. Don't judge the entire country by your yokel neighbors. Then there's the whole typical US rationality (which is probably more global, but what do I know?) of things like "I can't imagine a world where god doesn't exist; therefore, god exists".

    29. Re:Early Development by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Except that you don't have to demonstrate that you can teach, you just have to meet a set of semi-arbitrary standards that are primarily designed to ensure employment for those who teach "Education".
      If they wanted to ensure that potential teachers could teach, they would test the students at the beginning and end of the student teaching assignment and only those whose students showed an improvement in understanding the subject above a certain level would get certified. Designing the tests and defining the level is another subject.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    30. Re:Early Development by dkleinsc · · Score: 1

      Easy for you to say.

      My dad took about a 30% pay cut in addition to the time and money it took to get a graduate teaching degree in order to switch from software development to teaching. He really had been wanting to do that all his life, but the simple fact is that objectively it's a bad economic decision. Why? Simple - we don't like paying teachers anything close to what their level of education would get them in any other field. An entry-level engineer makes an average of $125K per year total compensation. An average teacher makes about $43K per year.

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    31. Re:Early Development by Sonny+Yatsen · · Score: 3, Informative

      http://www.mckinsey.com/clientservice/Social_Sector/our_practices/Education/Knowledge_Highlights/Closing_the_talent_gap.aspx

      Noting: "Attracting and Retaining Top-Third Graduates to Careers in Teaching ,” we review the experiences of the top-performing systems in the world—Singapore, Finland, and South Korea. These countries recruit, develop, and retain the leading academic talent as one of their central education strategies, and they have achieved extraordinary results. In the United States, by contrast, only 23 percent of new teachers come from the top third, and just 14 percent in high poverty schools, where the difficulty of attracting and retaining talented teachers is particularly acute."

      http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5juGFSx9LiPaur6eO1KJAypB2ImVQ?docId=CNG.5337504e8f65acf16c57d5cac3cfe339.1c1

      From the Article: "The United States has fallen from top of the class to average in world education rankings, said a report Tuesday that warned of US economic losses from the trend. .... ranked the United States 14th out of 34 OECD countries for reading skills, 17th for science and a below-average 25th for mathematics.

      Incidentally, the PISA Report on education on which the previous article is about uses a sampling of 15 year old students. It's not comparing our students with the cream of their crop. It's comparing our average students with their average students.

      Most other countries are trying to make their education system more like Finland, South Korea and Singapore, not our's. Heck, even in the US, there are non-Asian parents who send their kids to Chinese school as an afterschool supplement because the math and science education offered there is often much better than what's offered in public schools.

      --
      My postings are informational and does not constitute legal advice. Act on it at your risk.
    32. Re:Early Development by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As a formerly gifted child who has since grown into a cynical adult, I could not disagree more. Lessons, as presented, were mind numbingly boring. Classes, and thus all formal education thereafter, became an exercise in tedium to be avoided at all costs. After being told that my instructors were not calling on me because I had all the answers, and that I needed to "slow down" to keep pace with the rest of the children, apathy set in, and my education suffered tremendously.

      GP is right, gifted children do need a different environment to receive the full benefits of their education.

    33. Re:Early Development by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      "A huge problem with that is getting qualified (and hopefully excited) teachers in those fields."

      A big problem there, at least from my experience, is that the really good science and math teachers are rather quirky individuals, and the abuse they get from other teachers because of it can be a good motivation to go do something else with their lives.

    34. Re:Early Development by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      There are several things that would go a long way towards improving education in the US. First, stop worrying about "education in the U.S." and warry about education in your state. Second, get rid of teacher's tenure. Third is related to the first, shrink school districts, so that a few parents can influence the outcome of schoolboard elections.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    35. Re:Early Development by Threni · · Score: 1

      Might mean higher taxes to pay teachers more money. Are you happy paying higher taxes, or is that socialist or European or something?

    36. Re:Early Development by gstoddart · · Score: 2

      It's my contention that those who have a nice career and a deep knowledge of math and/or science should consider spending the last few years working as a (fully qualified) teacher.

      And put up with the headaches of putting up with a bunch of bored, spoiled brats who don't give a damn in the first place?

      No thanks. High school sucked, reliving it every day to put up with crap from teenagers just isn't worth it.

      I generally agree with what you're saying, I just don't see the reward as being worth the hassles.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    37. Re:Early Development by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 2

      State education departments don't use the scientific method to figure out which bad teachers to fire, they don't use it to figure out which education methodology works best, they don't use it to figure out optimal class size or technology investment...

      It seems self-evident to me that they wouldn't effectively teach a tool they've never used.

    38. Re:Early Development by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have been in science education for some 30 years as either a hs physics teacher or a teacher educators. The fact is that science teachers face an impossible situation. They are supposed to be following national standards which were designed to address the problem described in the article: science as trivia rather than being conceptual. However standardized tests evolve ultimately into trivia exams because that's what can be scored easily by machines. Teachers in the end have to teach to those tests, as jobs increasingly is dependent on that [cf. race to the top funding]. Here in Washington State we have taken a test that was conceptual and in the name of simplification have turned it into a trivia test. Given that people don't want to pay for education, and don't understand the complexity of science or any other field, these tests will inevitably evolve to a lowest common denominator.

    39. Re:Early Development by DinDaddy · · Score: 1

      Your totally rite! That's how I make sure I spell things the rite way!

    40. Re:Early Development by I8TheWorm · · Score: 1

      I think you're missing my point. The idea is to do it for a few years after your regular career... once you've earned your comfortable living. The income from teaching would be a nice padding... along with the benefits provided.

      --
      Saying Android is a family of phones is akin to saying Linux is a family of PCs.
    41. Re:Early Development by geckipede · · Score: 2

      http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/dec/07/world-education-rankings-maths-science-reading

      This is a nice, recent attempt to answer that question.

      Being beaten by South Korea is nothing to be ashamed of, but being beaten across all three categories by Poland has got to be embarassing.

      As for attempts worldwide to change school systems, the talk in the UK at least is in trying to imitate the Swedes and the Norwegians.

    42. Re:Early Development by y_axis · · Score: 2

      Sorry. Guess my attempt at grammar humor was too subtle. (I am not gifted).

    43. Re:Early Development by DinDaddy · · Score: 1

      I saw some degree of that as a teen in Los Angeles. Which are the non-yokel parts of the U.S.?

    44. Re:Early Development by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 4, Interesting

      In a lot of other countries with a much better education system, teachers are recruited from the top of the graduating classes and are given incentives to go and teach.

      Which countries are these?

      Finland is a good example and among the best in the world. Their teachers are one of their highest paid professions and are government jobs. Less than 3% of grade school students go to private school. All education is free right up through doctoral degrees and includes free meals and healthcare.

      Many other countries are starting to use them as a model for changes to their own educational system, including China who has been taking great interest in reforming their education along those lines. I don't expect it to ever happen in the US though, we're a bit too isolationist and the majority opinion is that we're "better" at education and many other things despite objective evidence to the contrary.

    45. Re:Early Development by strider200142 · · Score: 2

      Agree completely! I went and got my teaching credential which was an exercise in regurgitating bullshit and wading through requirements that did little to enhance my teaching skills. Next I find out that I can begin teaching, but am required (in California) to go through two years of BTSA (Beginning Teacher Support and Assessment) which adds extra meetings, extra reading, and extra assignments (yes, assignments when I'm working AS a teacher!) that have once again nothing to do with what I'm doing in the classroom unless its a "reflective essay". Top this with the fact that new teachers are saddled with 3-5 different courses to teach, and I mean different. One job wanted me to teach chemistry, physics, geometry, and some random sports related thing. That's a LOT of different lessons to plan and prep for. And for the icing on the cake, you get paid next to nothing. For those that point out summer and winter vacation, yes those are nice but the amount of work you bring home with you as a teacher is ridiculous. Especially if you are a new teacher and need to make lesson plans every week! I heard from veterans that by year 5-9 things ease up.... Now I'm in full flight, unemployed and looking for a new career. I will return to teaching only to keep myself from under a bridge since at that point the level of respect one would get is finally dipping below that of a teacher.... -Gabriel

    46. Re:Early Development by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then they discovered they'd have to take numerous training courses to prove they could teach kids about what they'd been doing for years

      That's not a bad thing. Knowing how to do something doesn't automatically mean you're competent to teach others how to do it. Teaching is a skill.

    47. Re:Early Development by Americano · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.

      There's an uncomfortable element of truth to this too, and I say this as a devoted son of two career teachers: If you are top in your Computer Science class, Google or Apple or Microsoft comes along to hire you, offers you a good starting salary with benefits, and a brand-name employer that you can show off to your friends. There's less demand for "the guy who graduated last," which means that the lower-paying jobs - i.e., teaching - will fall to those who... 'can't' get the job at Google.

      There simply isn't a great deal of incentive for the "top of the class" to go into education: fight your way through a mystifyingly complex government bureaucracy for a full day of discipline problems and budget cuts, all for the same pay as the meathead who barely graduated college? Gee, where do I sign up?

      A couple changes that I think would go a long way towards addressing some of this:
      1) Abolish tenure. If you're good, your job is safe. If you're not good, you should be turfed.
      2) Merit pay for teachers. GOOD merit pay - competitive with industry, and awarded in equal measure to your effectiveness & talents as a teacher.
      3) Incentives for effective teachers to work with disadvantaged students.
      4) Expand grants, scholarships, etc. - think the Americorps concept. "We give you a scholarship, and in return, you teach for several years after graduation."

    48. Re:Early Development by Sonny+Yatsen · · Score: 1

      There are several things that would go a long way towards improving education in the US. First, stop worrying about "education in the U.S." and warry about education in your state. Second, get rid of teacher's tenure. Third is related to the first, shrink school districts, so that a few parents can influence the outcome of schoolboard elections.

      That last part about how a few parents can influence the outcome of schoolboard elections is precisely the reason why a bunch of school districts either started or tried to teach either creationism or intelligent design in the last couple of decades. If you think that having hundreds of districts where science and math education is controlled by religious fundamentalists will improve education, then you're wrong.

      --
      My postings are informational and does not constitute legal advice. Act on it at your risk.
    49. Re:Early Development by Americano · · Score: 1

      Woosh.

      Manor =/= Manner.

      Manor = building, generally a mansion-style home in the country.

      Manner = style, method.

    50. Re:Early Development by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      If you follow X steps, then you will get the answer, then you will path the class.

      Was that a Freudian lisp I detected?

    51. Re:Early Development by Antisyzygy · · Score: 1

      The main problem is that they don't pay teachers enough money. If they would pay them 80,000 a year you would see tons of qualified people come out of the woodworks and competition would rise swiftly. Right now non-college teachers are either A) Passionate people that chose to teach because they like to or B) People that didn't score high enough in undergrad to get into grad school or C) People that are too lazy to go to grad school. More often B and C than A.

      --
      That brings me to an interesting point, / . is just "the ramblings of socially-inept, technology-literate news-mongers".
    52. Re:Early Development by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "You really think people look down on doctors and scientists?"

      Doctors are highly regarded, scientists however are definitely not. Scientists are the mad freaks who are hell bent on destroying the world, or the clueless fools who carelessly come within a half-second of accidentally wiping out the human race, or are the corrupt assholes sucking down megabucks from (insert taxpayer/government tit, Big Oil, Big Pharma, or other common target here) while doing next to nothing except fabricating results, or at best, scientists are the harmless, socially awkward, nerdy guys in white labcoats with inch-thick glasses endlessly puttering about on something they find fascinating but is absolutely useless. Those stereotypes are pure bullshit as any actual scientist will tell you, but that's how we're viewed.

    53. Re:Early Development by GrumblyStuff · · Score: 1

      i no liek ya!!!

    54. Re:Early Development by Fujisawa+Sensei · · Score: 1

      Yes, but in college I had a faculty member in genetics, the man definitely knew his stuff, but as a teacher he was more or less a complete flop. Yes, the requirements do need to be reasonable, but just because somebody knows their field doesn't mean that they're qualified to teach. I know that there's this common conception that teaching is easy if you know how to do the tasks, but that's really not true. The point is, that having to demonstrate capability exists for a reason. Sure it is cumbersome and probably could use a modernization and culling of some of the requirements, but it's there to try and minimize the cases where teachers are thrown into a classroom environment without being able to teach.

      As opposed to someone who could not teach and was incompetent in the field?

      --
      If someone is passing you on the right, you are an asshole for driving in the wrong lane.
    55. Re:Early Development by Fujisawa+Sensei · · Score: 1

      "You really think people look down on doctors and scientists?" Doctors are highly regarded, scientists however are definitely not. Scientists are the mad freaks who are hell bent on destroying the world, or the clueless fools who carelessly come within a half-second of accidentally wiping out the human race, or are the corrupt assholes sucking down megabucks from (insert taxpayer/government tit, Big Oil, Big Pharma, or other common target here) while doing next to nothing except fabricating results, or at best, scientists are the harmless, socially awkward, nerdy guys in white labcoats with inch-thick glasses endlessly puttering about on something they find fascinating but is absolutely useless. Those stereotypes are pure bullshit as any actual scientist will tell you, but that's how we're viewed.

      If you think Doctors are highly regarded, you're wrong. American's have a huge distrust of medical professionals. That's why there are all these alt-med cranks running around, and people die because mommy and daddy listen to Jenny McCarthy as opposed to their doctor.

      --
      If someone is passing you on the right, you are an asshole for driving in the wrong lane.
    56. Re:Early Development by Calydor · · Score: 1

      That's called practice. Same way a person who drives around for 8 to 10 hours a day as part of his job drives better than someone who's only behind the wheel once every couple of weeks.

      --
      -=This sig has nothing to do with my comment. Move along now=-
    57. Re:Early Development by scamper_22 · · Score: 1

      I don't know where people get the idea that you need qualified experts in the field to teach.
      Yes, I'm an engineer... and also a teacher. I taught high school math and computer science.

      You have a class of diverse students.
      Some super smart. Okay, my advanced training can help these kids a little bit. But honestly, they're just as capable learning on their own.
      There's the whole whack of average kids... who by in large need a fairly generic lesson plan... that we all have. I always found it weird in teaching how little is shared. If the ministry developed lessons and common lesson plans, it would make the first few years of teaching so much easier.
      Then you have the troubled kids from broken homes, behavioral issues... they're not going to benefit from any advanced learning I have.

      Heck, my University experience was similar. The brilliant profs were great, but generally couldn't teach for beans. Most of my actual learning was with me and text book and working out problems and projects. Sometimes a little help from TAs and what not.

      Just try teaching for a bit... or maybe remember your high school days. Your teacher is up there. They organize some lesson plan. They teach something. They take up homework. They let you work on some problems or in groups. Then class is over. rinse and repeat. It really is about the lesson plan... which does not require experts to deliver it.

      I would honestly say that on average, the knowledge of a teacher is way way way way down at the bottom of the list of things that affect student outcomes.
      Things like:
      Teacher attitude
      Class control
      Curriculum
      Student background (good parents, bad parents, how much they learn at home)
      Support Staff (give me a few good teaching assistant over an expert anyday)
      Culture ...

      As to:
      "It's my contention that those who have a nice career and a deep knowledge of math and/or science should consider spending the last few years working as a (fully qualified) teacher."

      Ideally that would be the case. However, you understand how unions work? Seniority and the like. It's not like I could just walk into a teaching job as an engineer just because I'm more qualified. Nothing would make me happier than to start teaching again in a few years full time. But it's not going to happen. Best of all, if I do start teaching, I'll get the class no one wants to teach grade 9 basic math... as that is what seniority is all about. In a fantasy world of mine, most of teaching is done by people 'retiring' in their field so they actually have life experience in the field.

    58. Re:Early Development by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Teaching is not easy. Science is not easy. Math is not easy. I have a PhD in experimental physics and a Masters degree in teaching. Yup, some of the school of ed courses were stupid, but some were good and helped me better think about how I learned and to understand that some people don't learn best that way. Do I look at my elementary school kids and occasionally grumble about the inadequacy of the math education -- yes. The schools are better than average, but they aren't going to keep up with kids that are 4-sigma outliers on the high side. Pity keeps them trying to educate 4-sigma on the low side however and they greatly reward those kids who finally managed to tie their shoes and count to 10.

      What bothers me with the "experts should end their career by teaching" idea is that it's short-sighted. There are other ways to teach kids rather than being in the class as a teacher. Granted some teachers are idiots -- but there are good ones who would be more than willing to partner with a talented volunteer. You want more volunteers? Allow people take a tax right off for the donated time at teacher paygrade.

      There are also lots of ways to support education -- if it's important to you dear slashdotters you can certainly DAGS and find a way to help rather than moaning along. If you are moaning and contributing to this thread I challenge to get off your proverbial backsides and actually "do something"!

    59. Re:Early Development by meerling · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Spelling has rules that are vastly ignored. To get passing grades it's years and years of rote memorization. If it were a true phonetic alphabet with no exceptions kids would have perfect spelling by 2nd or 3rd grade.

    60. Re:Early Development by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      Well, how has education being controlled by anti-religious fundamentalists worked out? I hate to have to tell you this, but when U.S. education was controlled by religious fundamentalists is was markedly superior to the current version.
      BBut more importantly, if those kids are not in tthe school district you live in, what business of yours is what they are taught? How has making the school bureaucracy less responsive to individual parents improved education?

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    61. Re:Early Development by MontyApollo · · Score: 1

      Bachelor level science degrees often don't lead to high paying jobs. One reason more don't become teachers is that standing in front of a room of bored kids just doesn't sound that appealing. I have worked with science majors for over twenty years, and the reason they don't become teachers has nothing to do with pay.

      (When people talk about "high paying" math and science, they usually mean engineering.)

    62. Re:Early Development by TaoPhoenix · · Score: 1

      .gov Likes this.

      --
      My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
    63. Re:Early Development by TheoMurpse · · Score: 1

      If you follow X steps, then you will get the answer, then you will path the class.

      And which clath ið thith? Catth the Thweety Birð? (I hope some Icelandic people or Beowulf fans mod me up for dropping them ðs! English needs more ðs!) (Funny how Slashdot lets me include the HTML entity for an eth, but not for a thorn...)

    64. Re:Early Development by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >Allow people take a tax right off for the donated time at teacher paygrade.

      Thank you for setting off my irony meter, Mr. highly educated teacher.

    65. Re:Early Development by Atzanteol · · Score: 1

      You really think people look down on doctors and scientists?

      They sure do. Look at all the anti-science woo and crap in the media. Jenny McCarthy stands testament to the hatred for real science in the US.

      --
      "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge"

      - Charles Darwin
    66. Re:Early Development by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I volunteer your kids to be the ones who end up a year behind due to your poorly-thought-out vetting method.

    67. Re:Early Development by N0Man74 · · Score: 1

      And when they aren't portrayed as nerds, corporate shills, and taxpayer leeches, then it is out-of-touch elitists with liberal agendas.

    68. Re:Early Development by Rogerborg · · Score: 1

      And how much extra tax are you volunteering to pay to recruit people from Google and Apple? Put a number on it.

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    69. Re:Early Development by I8TheWorm · · Score: 1

      I agree with you on salary, but unfortunately, we're taxed enough at the federal level that states are crippled to raise taxes to support fair salaries. And sadly, people will pay $300 to sit in the nosebleed section to see a football game, but nobody wants to pay a few extra dollars to fund education.

      --
      Saying Android is a family of phones is akin to saying Linux is a family of PCs.
    70. Re:Early Development by sensei+moreh · · Score: 1

      I'm not at all convinced that smaller school districts is a viable way to address the problems in our schools. The smaller the district, the more homogeneous the tax base. Fine for wealthy districts; not so fine for poorer districts. State funding is still going to be vital, and with control of the purse strings comes a whole plethora of mandates (not all of which are funded by the state).

      --
      Geology - it's not rocket science; it's rock science
    71. Re:Early Development by IICV · · Score: 1

      Tenure makes excellent sense in a university, where people with doctorates in the field may be doing controversial research or discovering uncomfortable facts and should not have to worry about political pressure being applied to their university as a result of what they're doing.

      Why do teachers, who do no research, get the same benefit? It makes absolutely no sense to me.

    72. Re:Early Development by sensei+moreh · · Score: 1

      But what do we do when it's the state board of education injecting religion into science education?

      --
      Geology - it's not rocket science; it's rock science
    73. Re:Early Development by sensei+moreh · · Score: 1

      Glad I had a few of those type A teachers along the way. Not sure that you've got the non-A types properly described.

      --
      Geology - it's not rocket science; it's rock science
    74. Re:Early Development by DanTheStone · · Score: 1

      You're ignoring the fact that English is pronounced differently in different places.

    75. Re:Early Development by I8TheWorm · · Score: 1

      Unions again... ugh.

      I'll let you know what I meant when I talked about having a working knowledge. In my first algebra class in HS I had a teacher who clearly was in over her head. When students asked her to reiterate a problem because nobody understood, she simply erased the example and went through it again.

      I'm sure she did that because she didn't understand it either. Most of us barely made it through that class, and some didn't make it at all.

      I don't really blame the teacher all that much, I blame the system that put her in that position.

      --
      Saying Android is a family of phones is akin to saying Linux is a family of PCs.
    76. Re:Early Development by gcatullus · · Score: 1

      The saying is extended "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach, and those who can't teach become principals"

    77. Re:Early Development by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      I really hated spelling at school. We had a test of 20 words every week, and I rarely got more than 15 right, often fewer than 10. Now, my spelling is pretty close to perfect. I rarely misspell a word[1], and when I do it's most often a typo that I can quickly correct. Spelling tests and school spelling teaching, however, did nothing to get me to this point. When we stopped being taught spelling, I was still atrocious at it. It was only when I started typing a lot in something that immediately flagged spelling mistakes that I learned to spell correctly.

      [1] Owning to one of the rules of the Internet, this post will now contain a few dozen embarrassing mistakes.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    78. Re:Early Development by jav1231 · · Score: 1

      Teachers as a whole represent the low end of the grade scale in college. Naturally, there are exceptions. Why would those exceptions want to teach? Yes, there's that passion to make a difference but the lure of a good career is hard to resist. Then you think, "I can always come back and teach" and either never do or find that the system of education, esp. in the U.S., is largely apathetic towards teachers. The administration provides the curriculum and dole out the duties to under-paid, under-appreciated teachers. Ultimately, those low-grade college students, like in the rest of society, have just slowly migrated to their profession.

    79. Re:Early Development by I8TheWorm · · Score: 1

      I agree with you too... I'm just not suggesting it as a rewarding goal, but a "giving back" goal.

      --
      Saying Android is a family of phones is akin to saying Linux is a family of PCs.
    80. Re:Early Development by Americano · · Score: 1

      I'm not even sure I'd go that far. Before being granted tenure, most junior professors have to show a history of good research, publications, and so on. Junior researchers basically need to spend their non-tenured time making sure they don't piss off the powers-that-be with heterodox opinions and research, and only after they're given tenure can they "safely" report these findings and explore the questions.

      I'm not sure I can think of a "better" way to do it, honestly, but tenure doesn't seem to accomplish much aside from saying, "kiss some asses for a while, in the hope that you won't have to keep kissing asses for the rest of your career."

    81. Re:Early Development by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 0

      There is no evidence that funding has any appreciable effect on the quality of education. Currently, some of the worst school districts in the country spend the most money per student. The funding issue has been vastly overblown by those who profit from increased school funding. Education should be a local issue, not state or federal.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    82. Re:Early Development by Marcika · · Score: 1

      I saw some degree of that as a teen in Los Angeles. Which are the non-yokel parts of the U.S.?

      I saw some degree of that as a teen in Los Angeles. Which are the non-yokel parts of the U.S.?

      San Francisco, Boston, Honolulu, Seattle. Yes, buying a house in any of these is expensive - for a reason. (If you don't like maritime climes, maybe Austin, Madison or Twin Cities, too).

    83. Re:Early Development by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2

      Teaching is a skill. Teacher training does not impart it. One of the best physics teachers that I've had was a trainee teacher who had worked in industry and made enough to retire, but decided to teach physics as a hobby (teaching is probably a lot more fun if you can afford to say to the admin people 'I'm not going to put up with this crap, if you want you can fire me, but you get to deal with all of the parental complaints when you replace me with someone less competent'). I had other teachers at the same stage in their training who were useless and others who were fully qualified teachers but still incompetent.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    84. Re:Early Development by peragrin · · Score: 1

      Well I got the joke, and because of my lack of studying, I misspell crap all the time.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    85. Re:Early Development by tempest69 · · Score: 1

      Education controlled by anti-religious fundies... not even close. They leave it out mostly, but it's far from anti-religious.
      Markedly superior when controlled by fundies.. No it wasnt... I'm calling -attribution needed-

      It wasn't good then, it isn't good now.

      What business is it of mine? The education of those people is vital to my standard of living, I don't live disconnected from these people. They pay and use insurance, if they're dumb and OD on OTC meds, it raises my rates. If they fail to grasp drivers ed it endangers me on the road. If they don't grasp arithmetic I get weird looks when I pull out a penny when I'm due $1.74 in change.

      I don't mind a responsive school district, but that shouldn't allow parents to hijack the education system.

      Besides would you want your kids subjected to whatever religious nonsense I believe in?

    86. Re:Early Development by Americano · · Score: 1

      Guarantee me the following:

      1) The money from the extra taxes will go towards recruiting & retaining effective teachers for our school systems;

      2) The money will not be spent on a bunch of bullshit earmarks tacked on to the funding bill, and will be spent *fairly* and *appropriately* on teachers who perform better than the people they're replacing (rather than "some politician's niece is a teacher and needs a job...");

      Start with those 2 promises, and hold to them, and you can raise my taxes by 10%, no loopholes. If you think you need more, we can discuss it. I don't consider a *functional* educational system a wasteful expenditure - if the money is actually being used to measurably improve the quality of educational outcomes, then I am more than happy to make that investment.

    87. Re:Early Development by tycoex · · Score: 1

      Ever seen the movie Idiocracy? Our country is definitely moving towards it becoming a reality.

      "Why you tryin' ta read that sign? You some kinda' fag or somethin'?"

    88. Re:Early Development by lgw · · Score: 1

      An entry-level engineer makes an average of $125K per year total compensation. An average teacher makes about $43K per year.

      Where do you live? Even google doesn't pay that mocuh at entry level. Average entry-level pay here in the Valley is closer to $60k for those who Google didn't want, which isn't all that different from average high school teacher pay here. Of course, that's stil comparing entry-level to mid-career.

      The simple fact is, the pay for any job isn't based on the value a worker brings to society, but the value that one more worker would bring to society. For all the downsides, the supply of people who want to teach is still higher than the number of teaching jobs.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    89. Re:Early Development by Antisyzygy · · Score: 1

      There are plenty of other programs that are funded too much as it IMHO.

      --
      That brings me to an interesting point, / . is just "the ramblings of socially-inept, technology-literate news-mongers".
    90. Re:Early Development by Idbar · · Score: 1

      Yes, that's interesting. On any conversation, as soon as I say I'm an electrical engineer, people are like "whoaaaah, that's tough". My sincere reply is most of the time that I think memorizing stuff, like people in botanicals or law, or acting on animals or human beens, like veterinarians or physicians, is harder. And in fact, I wouldn't like to go to any academic program where I have to read loooong books with no diagrams.

    91. Re:Early Development by twoallbeefpatties · · Score: 1

      [F]ight your way through a mystifyingly complex government bureaucracy for a full day of discipline problems and budget cuts, all for the same pay as the meathead who barely graduated college? Gee, where do I sign up? A couple changes that I think would go a long way towards addressing some of this:

      I think you contradict yourself a bit there. Instead of new incentives and a screwy pay structure and testing that kinda sorta shows who the better teachers are, why not just, y'know, raise the average teaching salary to match that of other professions with similar training requirements? That would bring more talented people to the profession, since many of those talented people leave to seek careers where they can be rewarded for their talents, and growing the talent pool would then give schools more range in firing underperforming teachers since they would have more ready replacements.

      I mean, "incentives" is basically a way that we say we want it to look like we're giving people higher salaries than what they're currently getting without actually having to pay higher salaries. When a person signs up for a job, they ask what it pays every two weeks - they don't ask what bonus they earn for being voted employee of the month. And a lot of students do the same thing when they select their college majors. Right now, you might earn a good salary as a teacher if you're well recognized and you can teach in the right school district and you can cut a certain amount of politics and you're willing to eventually move up to an admin position (and not to mention in the current climate of cutting education budgets to make up for shortfalls in state budgets, if you can even get a job to begin with), whereas there are plenty of careers to train for where you can just earn a good salary. Your incentives might push current teachers to do a little better, but they won't attract more talented people to the profession.

      --
      Libertarians somehow believe that private businesses should be stronger than governments but weaker than individuals.
    92. Re:Early Development by nospam007 · · Score: 1

      "but being beaten across all three categories by Poland has got to be embarassing. "

      Is that because they're a bunch of Polacks or because they are all Ex-Commie bastards?

      PS. BTW it's 'embarrassing'

    93. Re:Early Development by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yet that falls apart for me because I see so many Teach for America teachers, many the top of their classes, go into the worst performing schools and then get eaten alive. No, the problem isn't just a matter of talent but also a problem with the entire education system.

    94. Re:Early Development by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      Besides would you want your kids subjected to whatever religious nonsense I believe in?

      No, but the thing is I would home school my own children because I don't believe that even a good school can do as good of a job at teaching my children as I can (this is, by the way, based on my observation of people I know who home schooled their kids).

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    95. Re:Early Development by SeaFox · · Score: 2

      I wish that's something we could implement in the US for education reform rather than grading teachers on how effective they are at teaching their kids how to take a specific test.

      Except that's all parents really care about. Do they really care if their child learns the material? No, they want high test scores because the test scores are what decides who gets into what college and therefore who gets into higher paying jobs and is (at least by many standards) who's more successful in life.

      Have you every met people in top jobs who don't seem to know what they're doing? They didn't learn it in school, but they passed the right tests and sold themselves well enough to the right people. They're doing well in life anyway, so they could care less.

    96. Re:Early Development by nomadic · · Score: 1

      New York City.

    97. Re:Early Development by rekenner · · Score: 2

      The problem with merit pay is that it then pushes teachers away from wanting to teach those that are hard to teach, and towards kids that are 'easy' to teach. Teachers that teach students with mental handicaps or are also learning English as a second language *along with* the standard school subjects rarely do as well or improve as much as other students. How do you account for that? You did mention that in 3), at least, but it would be very hard to make the system fair.

      Then, on the other side of the problem, students that are already "advanced". Those that tend to get in the highest percentile/grade of exams every year. If you base merit pay on score, the lucky teachers have it easy. If you base it on improvement, well, how do improve on being in the 99th percentile? Further, how do you base the merit pay? A standardized test? That's the system that's been proposed (and shot down) in Florida. Which is a horrible system, as, well, standardized tests are rarely good.

      Sigh. I mean, I do agree with you, to a large extent. I actually *want* to be a professor. And while I'll be the first to admit I'm not top of my class, I think I could do the job well - Until we get to the politics of the matter. And I've thought a fair amount about fixing K-12 education (partly as an idle thought, partially because my sister does teach ESE/ESOL 4th graders), but it is not an easy problem to figure out a solution to.

    98. Re:Early Development by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If they wanted to ensure that potential teachers could teach, they would test the students at the beginning and end of the student teaching assignment and only those whose students showed an improvement in understanding the subject above a certain level would get certified.

      One, and only one, of the following is true:

      1. Students are interchangeable parts milled to identical specifications in a factory, and are thus all equally teachable.

      2. Your idea is stupid, unworkable, and hopelessly simplistic.

    99. Re:Early Development by Unkyjar · · Score: 1

      Hmmm...I've been waiting to slip this short video to someone in education. It hits the major points of Ken Robinson's RSA speech entitled "Changing Education Paradigms" and I'm curious as to the opinion of a professional.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDZFcDGpL4U

    100. Re:Early Development by Swampash · · Score: 1

      American education: "It happens like that because of Jesus"

    101. Re:Early Development by ultranova · · Score: 1

      Certainly the system wants drones. "Want" != "need", but generally "want" == "what you get".

      The system needs someone to clean the toilets, sweep the streets, flip the burgers, run the assembly line, and do all the other thousands of boring but necessary jobs. This has only recently began to chance thanks to automation; but in a cruel twist of irony our capitalistic society won't liberate people from menial work when said work is automated, but simply labels them unnecessary and shoves them aside to live in poverty.

      Everyone can't be a winner, and a loser by any other name is still a drone.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    102. Re:Early Development by Americano · · Score: 1

      Agreed - my 4 bullets should not be construed as suggesting that they're a panacea for all the problems in education, and as with any system where money and measurement are tied together, merit pay could lend itself to gaming and abuse just as easily as "everybody gets the same pay, so why try harder".

      And let's not also forget that somebody who is not good at teaching the "best and brightest" students may be naturally quite wonderful at working with and teaching disadvantaged (handicapped, ESL, poor / inner city backgrounds) kids, and the teacher who does great with third graders may be a poor fit in front of high school seniors. They're different skill sets, and we need to acknowledge that, and try to develop ways to match teachers with the types of students who will best benefit from their particular strengths.

      And none of what I've said should be construed as a knock against teachers. As I said, both my parents were teachers (now retired), and I have a great deal of respect for the work that they do. But I have also seen my share of absolutely awful teachers who are not qualified to hold their positions, yet they are kept on because the school system needs staff, or the teachers' union would make it too difficult to fire them.

      I think one of the greatest problems is the homogenization we've built into the system - we've ended up viewing teachers and students as interchangeable "resources" in an assembly line, and I think the first step is to acknowledge that not all teachers are created equal, and not all students are destined to win the nobel prize in physics. This doesn't mean that you give up on them, or relegate kids to "you're in the McDonald's Skills classes from grade 2 on, kid!", nor should it mean that you can never fire a teacher for being incompetent, or reward a really good teacher with extra pay, or a bonus.

    103. Re:Early Development by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

      So's Spanish, but it's really easy to spell anyway.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    104. Re:Early Development by Americano · · Score: 1

      When I suggested the incentives, the notion I had in mind was "hazardous duty pay." It's an acknowledgement that, even for a good teacher, working with kids who have basic physical and emotional needs that aren't being satisfied is going to be a much larger challenge - think inner city kids from poor backgrounds who've had 2 meals in the last 3 days. Think their mind is on learning? I don't.

      That sort of a situation is draining on teachers, and the teachers who volunteer for it, and/or are *good* at it should be rewarded for it.

      The "better salaries" thing is pretty much what I meant by "good merit pay" in item 2: Base salaries should be competitive with industry, and you shouldn't have to negotiate your pay rate based on "what the union says teachers with X years of experience get in this district." Of course there's an average salary, but if you have extraordinary qualifications for the position, and a sterling track record of effective teaching, why shouldn't you be able to ask for 20% more than the average teacher gets?

    105. Re:Early Development by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      There are some major issues with that model, namely, student teachers don't typically teach their own classes and normalizing for host teachers would be problematic. Anyone who does can probably teach via the apprentice model, but not necessarily at the classroom level. I can teach calculus, but would not know where to begin teaching 5th grade math.

    106. Re:Early Development by the_other_chewey · · Score: 1

      [1] Owning to one of the rules of the Internet, this post will now contain a few dozen embarrassing mistakes.

      As far as I can see, there wouldn't be any without the footnote.
      It's "owing to" ;-). Now that's a nice confirmation of the rule...

    107. Re:Early Development by Dash275 · · Score: 1

      This. This and everything about it. When I was in high school, every class had an End of Course Test that was supposed to gauge if you learned enough about the class to pass, but we had this test in addition to a final exam, and this EOCT was factored into our grade. There were instances of students making A's but gaining no credit because of making less than 70 on the EOCT, and the opposite too. In addition to that, these tests were between the midterms and final exams, and up to two weeks in each class were lessons about the test format and how to strategically pass the test.

    108. Re:Early Development by Dash275 · · Score: 1
      I've always heard it as those who can't teach become coaches.

      And then those who can't coach administrate.

    109. Re:Early Development by martin-boundary · · Score: 1

      It's my contention that those who have a nice career and a deep knowledge of math and/or science should consider spending the last few years working as a (fully qualified) teacher.

      I think we have to stop thinking that the problem lies mainly with bad teachers. Good teachers are important, but in truth learning is a personal decision. Either a kid wants to learn, and will find a way, or (s)he's got other priorities.

      Learning isn't like going to a McDonald's and ordering a prepackaged unit of knowledge. It's also not a passive activity, like watching television. The sooner a kid realizes that (s)he has to seek things out for him or herself on their own, the better off (s)he will be.

      A good teacher is wasted on bad students, and a good student usually figures out how to learn on his or her own. This suggests that "fixing" the quality of teachers is no silver bullet.

    110. Re:Early Development by Dash275 · · Score: 1

      I have just fallen deeper in love with SMBC. That expresses how I and all my non-English oriented friends feel about reading. I absolutely hated English classes because we'd read one book for weeks and go obnoxiously slow, and in turn came to hate novels because of an association with effort I didn't have or want to use.

      Then I discovered science fiction.

    111. Re:Early Development by hajus · · Score: 1

      You misunderstand what he is saying.

    112. Re:Early Development by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.

      There's an uncomfortable element of truth to this too, and I say this as a devoted son of two career teachers: If you are top in your Computer Science class, Google or Apple or Microsoft comes along to hire you, offers you a good starting salary with benefits, and a brand-name employer that you can show off to your friends. There's less demand for "the guy who graduated last," which means that the lower-paying jobs - i.e., teaching - will fall to those who... 'can't' get the job at Google.

      There simply isn't a great deal of incentive for the "top of the class" to go into education: fight your way through a mystifyingly complex government bureaucracy for a full day of discipline problems and budget cuts, all for the same pay as the meathead who barely graduated college? Gee, where do I sign up?

      A couple changes that I think would go a long way towards addressing some of this:
      1) Abolish tenure. If you're good, your job is safe. If you're not good, you should be turfed.
      2) Merit pay for teachers. GOOD merit pay - competitive with industry, and awarded in equal measure to your effectiveness & talents as a teacher.
      3) Incentives for effective teachers to work with disadvantaged students.
      4) Expand grants, scholarships, etc. - think the Americorps concept. "We give you a scholarship, and in return, you teach for several years after graduation."

      Who is going to pay for all this? The problem is that teachers don't produce goods that can make a "profit," unless they're selling off their students to the next institution, this "competitive with industry" pay must come from the Government.

      Good luck getting THAT out of a Republican. Half of them want to completely abolish the Department of Education!

    113. Re:Early Development by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >Finland is a good example

      Finland is a fine example of a country with a small, very socially homogeneous population.
      It is not reasonable to compare it to different countries. Would Finland's economic system scale up if they had a much larger country, much larger population, high immigration, had a larger segment of the population with health problems, needed a much larger national defense, etc?

      China cannot possibly model their education system on Finland. They already do provide free (cost-neutral) education to the tiny fraction of the population that gets the opportunities in the first place.

      If our higher education is so terrible, why is it so popular among Europeans? (I even knew *Finns* at my university -- what's THAT about?)

    114. Re:Early Development by hedwards · · Score: 1

      I'm actually in the process of getting my TESL certificate and probably the relevant teaching certificate as well to teach English domestically.

      A large part of the problem is that we're moving towards a system where teacher compensation is tied to student performance without any particular justification. Teachers, depending upon level, might bet between 5 and 30 hours or so a week with a student.

      Worse, the time and resources available to the teacher and the standards tend to make it rather challenging to actually make any progress. Teachers have little say in whether or not the standards for advancement are adhered to, and are competing with a society that seems to think that it's really fun to make things up like Intelligent Design.

    115. Re:Early Development by fishbowl · · Score: 1

      What about the idea that the money that is already allocated for education could be used more efficiently?

      Why does any suggestion of positive change always automatically engender threats of increased taxes?

      Schools often get overall budgets of breathtaking amounts of money, that seems to get allocated to anything and everything else before the actual concerns of education are even considered.

      The money that's already being spent could work more effectively.

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
    116. Re:Early Development by fishbowl · · Score: 1

      The system needs neither. There is a surplus of entrepreneurial types and an utter dearth of jobs that those drones can perform.

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
    117. Re:Early Development by fishbowl · · Score: 1

      The 2-semester calc sequence that you start with at just about any university will basically reset what a high school grad thinks he understands about calculus anyway. The sort of rote learning of formulas of derivatives and the few finite integrals you get, are maybe useful for the student to be comfortable with the notation, but the way the college courses are structured it turns out to be unnecessary at best and can be a counterproductive way of approaching problems that actually needs to be unlearned.

      I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out that students do better in Vector Calc that took more intense trig and maybe a course with geometric proofs, than those who took AP calculus or whatever.

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
    118. Re:Early Development by Xaositecte · · Score: 1

      A variety of scientific studies have been done, most of which conclude that there is a statistically significant relationship between school funding and student achievement.

      From what I can tell, there exists a point of diminishing returns where throwing more money at a school won't solve any more of its problems, but if you have a district that is significantly poorer than average, and no state funding, its students are going to suffer from the lack of resources.

    119. Re:Early Development by Have+Brain+Will+Rent · · Score: 1

      There is some merit in that suggestion I think - two or three of the best teachers I had in school were "old", coming from outside "the system", and were doing it because they wanted to not because they had to. One had a Ph.D. in math.

      --
      The tyrant will always find a pretext for his tyranny - Aesop
    120. Re:Early Development by Pseudonym+Authority · · Score: 1

      Actually, the liberals are trying to sneak dirty, heretical science education into our religious curriculum, not the other way around.

    121. Re:Early Development by Have+Brain+Will+Rent · · Score: 1

      No teaching isn't easy - I taught at U for a few years and doing a good job really requires a lot of time and effort. And as a student I've had some very smart guys who couldn't teach worth crap... but on the whole I'd have to say that the better a guy was at his field then the better he was as a teacher. One of the best examples of this might be Richard Feynman - certainly attending a Feynman lecture was a delight - a brilliant guy who really knew how to teach!

      A big part of the problem is that at U teaching is generally seen as a chore and not a valuable use of time so the U wants their research stars researching and not teaching - during one of my degrees I attended one of the better schools for CS and heard it bluntly put by faculty that winning the teacher of the year award was not a positive thing for career prospects (tenure).

      --
      The tyrant will always find a pretext for his tyranny - Aesop
    122. Re:Early Development by Have+Brain+Will+Rent · · Score: 1

      Things are different everywhere of course. Where I am public school teachers don't get tenure - that's only for U profs. They do however have a very strong union. The pay seems just fine to me - start at something in the high 40's and 12-14 weeks off a year. NOt bad for a new graduate and pay increase are regular and pretty good. You'll be doing a lot better than that guy in chemistry you used to know at U who is now a poorly paid post-doc.

      --
      The tyrant will always find a pretext for his tyranny - Aesop
    123. Re:Early Development by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      A variety of scientific studies have been done, most of which conclude that there is a statistically significant relationship between school funding and student achievement.

      Let me guess, they were conducted by people who work at "education" colleges and many of them were paid for by the NEA/AFT?
      I am really skeptical of any study of education, there are too many variables.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    124. Re:Early Development by Xaositecte · · Score: 1

      University of San Diego
      http://pfr.sagepub.com/content/9/1/91.abstract

      University of Chicago
      http://rer.sagepub.com/content/66/3/361.abstract

      To be fair, I've found a number of articles that conclude the opposite (No strong evidence of a correlation between resources and student achievement) - I.E. http://epa.sagepub.com/content/19/2/141.abstract from the University of Rochester.

      I admit, you might have a point. - I don't actually have access to the full text of any of these articles, so I can't really judge them.

    125. Re:Early Development by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The point is, that having to demonstrate capability exists for a reason. Sure it is cumbersome and probably could use a modernization and culling of some of the requirements, but it's there to try and minimize the cases where teachers are thrown into a classroom environment without being able to teach.

      It totally fails at it. Instead of having a bunch of knowledgeable teachers who are ineffective at communicating their knowledge, we have a horde of good to great communicators, who know sweet fuck-all about the subject they're teaching. It occurs to me that all the professional development, additional college credits in education, testing, more testing, and testing again, ad nauseum is more about the government and administration covering its own collective ass, than actually making sure that we have quality instructors in the classroom. When viewed in this light, some of this redundant, degrading bullshit actually begins to make sense.

    126. Re:Early Development by dbIII · · Score: 1

      At a University level the lecturer is supposed to point you in the right direction instead of spoon feed you like a teacher often has to do.
      Conversely I've seen many teachers that were complete rubbish at their jobs and had been through the system. The worst was a "specialist grade three teacher" that refused to teach grade four because that meant she would have to teach fractions!
      As for the premise of the article "College Students Lack Scientific Literacy" - I could have told you that twenty years ago. Those who "lurned ta wread unter Raygun" were at a distinct disadvantage due to education funding cuts and no administration has really done anything to improve things since. It's already had a huge cost to society. For an obvious example take a look at the current massive size of the "naturapath" and associated scam industries that thrive on scientific and general illiteracy.
      We'll probably get some intellectual superman come in on this thread to write about how he triumphed over a lack of formal education and is now a world expert on something. Those rare examples, to put things frankly, are completely irrelevant. We have a functioning modern society today not because of a rare Liebnitz helping out the uneducated peasants, but because we can take the majority that are not "self-starters", teach them something useful and in return they contribute to society.

    127. Re:Early Development by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ya this is another problem I think, its like they are teaching too fast and therefore you dont get the fundamentals down. Sure you can plug in an equation into a formula but you dont understand what it is doing.

    128. Re:Early Development by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Merit pay for teachers.

      That's very hard to measure. In the past (and some places now) the best or most experienced teachers would often be given the worst students because they were more likely to be able to do something with those students. There were also entire schools where nobody would dare to send a teacher with less than about ten years experience with progressively more difficult students. There are places where a positive result is just to get close to full attendance instead of only the two kids that would sit in the library all day if there was a teacher in the school or not. By an overly simple measure those teachers that can do more than a recent graduate in such difficult schools would rank lower than a recent graduate in a quiet school.

    129. Re:Early Development by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      Throwing money at it may not guarantee quality education but underfunding education just about guarantees a poor outcome. One reason home schooling and private schools can work so well is the class size. More individual attention for each student from the teacher.

    130. Re:Early Development by sznupi · · Score: 1

      Being beaten by South Korea is nothing to be ashamed of, but being beaten across all three categories by Poland has got to be embarassing.

      Somewhat embarrassing, yes, considering the education reform a decade ago which actually did bring the system in Poland superficially closer to US one. With quite a few failures, complications, "unintended consequences" along the way - overall, it made things worse (still enough to beat, apparently)

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    131. Re:Early Development by sznupi · · Score: 2

      Well they do have relatively sizable Finnish Swede and Russian populations, some recent immigration, differences in military spending in percentage of GDP aren't very dramatic.,,

      But most importantly, they have two times lower population density. Going from their 17 per sq km to 32 makes things easier when it comes to scaling. And, FYI, preventative healthcare is also part of healthcare, and isn't free (might very well be more efficient of course)

      Finns present at US university level (you seem to almost assume lack of possibility of reverse situation? Heck, I had students from US at my uni in Poland, even in my dorm ("substandard", I'm sure...) - from Texas, to boot) don't tell much about condition of the whole system. Not when the US has (together with the UK) the lowest social mobility among developed nations.

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    132. Re:Early Development by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While I can sympathize, you're comparing apples to oranges here, since university professors rarely go through any rigorous formal training in order to lecture anyway, whereas primary and secondary school teachers go through absurd amounts, which is what the person you were responding to was talking about. University profs are notorious for being lousy teachers, partially due to the lack of training, but more so because of the fact that 80-90% of their job is research (which is also where their heart is) and the 10-20% that they spend on lecturing is oftentimes seen as a nuisance. As a grad student whose been TAing at one of the largest research universities in the US, I can safely say that many of them only lecture because they have to, and they have to because it makes us look better in the major rankings of universities if we have more full professors lecturing at the undergraduate level.

    133. Re:Early Development by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 1

      It's as though we expect the kids to grok the process from a demonstration of the results (generally pointing out the trivia about it) and a few cartoony diagrams.

      Potentially because those teachers sometimes have to teach those uncomfortable facts and shouldn't have to worry about being fired. I'm not saying I'm in favor of tenure for most schools (I haven't studied the issue or really formed an opinion). I'm just saying there may well be a similar reason. I know several parents that would push to have teachers fired for teaching such "controversial" topics as evolution without disclaimers about how it isn't really true.

    134. Re:Early Development by Forzan · · Score: 1

      The true dark side of merit based pay is it promotes cheating. It's why California canceled a program to give $25,000 bonuses to the best teachers -- many teachers were caught altering student tests to improve grades. There was a lot of concern that bonuses were going to the teachers that were the best at cheating, not the best at teaching. If you create an incentive based on an outcome, you should be aware of all possible methods.

    135. Re:Early Development by Hucko · · Score: 1

      You don't have taxi drivers where you live?

      --
      Semi-automatic amateur armchair Australian philosopher; conjecture ready at any moment...
    136. Re:Early Development by formfeed · · Score: 1

      Your totally rite! That's how I make sure I spell things the rite way!

      I sea you're pond!

      Mi spill chick doze half that some shored cumin: Now read lions!

    137. Re:Early Development by Thing+1 · · Score: 1

      Owing

      --
      I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
    138. Re:Early Development by Thing+1 · · Score: 1

      Measurement would be tough, though. Can't just be "number of As", should be more like "rise in grade from last year". But it would still give teachers incentive to give everyone As, because under either system this would maximize their pay.

      I'm thinking along the lines of a 10x salary for the top teacher, so they would necessarily compete strongly for it, and underhanded tactics would need to be watched out for from the beginning. The salary would be on a sliding scale, like the top 9 teachers earn 10x, 9x, etc.

      Of course, it would also need to give points for cooperation, we don't want them not talking to each other for fear of giving away their methods. Perhaps pair teaching might work, similar to the agile/XP pair programming concept.

      And they definitely shouldn't have quotas; if all the teachers are good, they should not decide some "bottom 10% need to be fired" rule.

      --
      I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
    139. Re:Early Development by tehdaemon · · Score: 2

      You can have a phonetic alphabet, or you can have standardized spelling - not both. Most words in english are spelled the way they were pronounced.

      Yes - I mean words like 'through' and 'knight"

      English has fixed spelling - and therefore can't have a phonetic alphabet. The core reason for this is simple - language changes over time. The rules of spelling are being ignored, mostly because the rules are made up after the fact to match the language. And the rules we have are getting rather out of date.

      T

      --
      Laws are horrible moral guides, moral guides make even worse laws.
    140. Re:Early Development by Phronesis · · Score: 1

      Fascinating. We're talking about teaching scientific reasoning, yet this comment, its parent and its grandparent all infer principles about how to get better qualified teachers into a classroom on the basis of personal anecdotes.

      No one cites systematic research on what produces effective teachers. None even says, "this is my experience, but it would take systematic research to tell whether it can be generalized." Instead, each one falls into exactly the fallacy identified in the article in the OP: using informal reasoning and thinking that it's principle-based scientific reasoning.

    141. Re:Early Development by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      right. First, you say that there isn't much incentive to become a teacher. Then, you suggest merit pay, which will increase the complexity of the bureaucracy and create incentives for teachers to not work with disadvantaged students. Also, you suggest abolishing tenure, which is the one thing that schools can offer that Google, Apple and Microsoft can't.

      #4 is the one thing on your list that actually works. It's actually implemented too, at least in Massachusetts.

      It's sad to see that it came after the "solutions" that have been suggested to you by years and years of right-wing propaganda.

    142. Re:Early Development by Arterion · · Score: 1

      I think it's the exact opposite: all my professors know what they're talking about in great detail, but fail at sometimes even basic pedagogy. Then again, academia is really about two things: research and the proliferation of academia; not teaching, even though you don't usually get into that until the graduate level.

      The professors I liked the most and respect the most were the ones who were excellent teachers, not the ones who were masters in their field.

      --
      "That which does not kill us makes us stranger." -Trevor Goodchild
    143. Re:Early Development by Arterion · · Score: 1

      It's a chicken-and-egg scenario, as the "powers that be" are created by tenure.

      The problem with the way it is now is that you can be a completely kook, but hide it until you get tenure, then spend the rest of your career fucking over freshmen with your nonsense. What can be done at that point? Not much, it's almost impossible to take any significant action against a professor at that point.

      --
      "That which does not kill us makes us stranger." -Trevor Goodchild
    144. Re:Early Development by xmundt · · Score: 1

      Greetings and salutations...

      Here at the University of Tennessee, the president of the university gets paid about $300K/year.
      The head football coach gets paid over $1million.

              where does THAT say the priorities lie?
              pleasant dreams
              ddave mundt

      --
      YAB - http://blog.beemandave.com/
    145. Re:Early Development by shiftless · · Score: 1

      It's #1.

      An individual student might not be an interchangeable part, but a classroom full of them sure is.

    146. Re:Early Development by shiftless · · Score: 1

      Just talking properly will probably get the occasional "what are you, a homo?!" thrown at you.

      Only if you are a socially incompetent dweeb. If you're a "good ole boy", well adjusted, reasonably physically fit, and well groomed, people will respect and admire you.

    147. Re:Early Development by shiftless · · Score: 1

      Really? Then why is it that so many people aspire to become doctors and lawyers, and push their kids towards these careers?

      Or, to put it another way--are doctors and lawyers hated because most of society feels that way, or because of jealousy/envy amongst some subset of the population?

    148. Re:Early Development by shiftless · · Score: 1

      +1

      Or better yet, get rid of a bunch of existing earmarks, and put that money towards hiring quality teachers instead. But that'll never happen.

    149. Re:Early Development by atrizzah · · Score: 1

      To a large extent Teach For America is attempting to address this issue, and simultaneously, many school districts are implementing new pay scales and merit pay in order to better compete for the best talent.

      But let me also say this: I am a graduate of an Ivy league master's program in electrical engineering and a Teach For America alumnus. I taught high school math for two years in inner-city Baltimore, and it was far and away the hardest thing I have ever done. My engineering program or any engineering work I have done in the past do not even chart in comparison. You can doubt what I'm saying if you want, but based on my own experience and my observation of many other extremely bright, talented, and resourceful people I know, teaching is the hardest job out there that doesn't deal with life or death on a daily basis (I will give the benefit of the doubt to paramedics, nurses, military, police, firefighters, etc.)

      So to get to my point, recruiting talented people into teaching is only part of the problem. The more difficult part is training them to teach effectively and retaining them long enough for them to be effective. I, for one, did not last long enough in the career to ever reach my probablypotential. I couldn't handle the stress for more than two years. Had I the heart to stay in the profession, I probably would have continued to improve.

      What I'm trying to say, and what may be new to many people on this board, is that the profession of teaching itself needs a complete overhaul. I won't get into the details, but there have been changes and trends in education over the past 10 years that, while well intentioned and possibly necessary, have dramatically increased the difficulty and stress of the job to the classroom teacher, to the point of absurdity.

      The details of this thesis are way too much to get into in one comment, but if you are interested in the issues in education, read for yourself the diary of my experience teaching at my teaching journal. I'll warn you though, it's not very light reading.

    150. Re:Early Development by atrizzah · · Score: 1

      Well said, sir!

    151. Re:Early Development by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      A hypothesis can be disproven by a single piece of evidence. I present evidence that teachers have managed to exit teacher training without acquiring the ability to teach and others have had this ability without completing the training. Therefore, the hypothesis that teacher training is required to produce good teachers is invalid, as is the hypothesis that teacher training produces good teachers.

      I made no comment on how one should produce good teachers. That would require some study.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    152. Re:Early Development by atrizzah · · Score: 1

      It's actually not that hard to get into teaching, if one is willing to put in the work. Many states have alternative certification routes, which are used by programs like Teach For America and and a cornucopia of other programs of varying similarity that operate at state and local levels. Many people are skeptical of the idea of training someone for a summer and then allowing them to be a full-time teacher (with simultaneous continuing training). It's definitely not for everyone, but some people, it's a great way to get involved in teaching without extensive prep time.

    153. Re:Early Development by atrizzah · · Score: 1

      Thanks for posting. The more people hear about the reality of teaching, the better, because most people really don't understand how difficult it is. You are totally right that the breaks don't make up for the 80+ hour weeks when school is in session, not to mention the fact that many teachers actually work over their breaks too.

      I think there is definitely utility in teacher prep programs like BTSA, but only if they are well-designed. In many places, teacher prep is not effective and disconnected from the reality of the teaching process. The strategies they teach might sound great in a vacuum, it's a different story when actual kids show up.

      Good luck in your career search. I already posted this earlier, but you might be interested in reading about my experience

    154. Re:Early Development by Peeteriz · · Score: 1

      You have to put a chinese wall between teaching and testing. Here annual exams are centralised with no involvement of local teachers, and it does immediately show which teachers or shools are giving A's for C-level knowledge, etc. Of

      Of course, that means that 'teaching for the test' will be the top priority as we'll be financially motivating teachers to do exactly that.

    155. Re:Early Development by BlitzTech · · Score: 1

      Which is half the point. Some engineered languages enforce a single pronunciation, while others are fully regular and therefore regional discrepancies in pronunciation would map differently without impeding the ability to spell.

      Relatedly, English sucks. Even if it's the only language I speak!

    156. Re:Early Development by BlitzTech · · Score: 1

      Rules of the internet? It's a bit more specific than that: Muphry's Law (not to be confused with Murphy's Law)

    157. Re:Early Development by BlitzTech · · Score: 1

      Then how do you explain the terrifying driving skills of most taxi drivers...?

    158. Re:Early Development by Threni · · Score: 1

      Ah yes! Something politicians come up with every time they want to change something. "We think we can make savings by being more efficient, cutting red tape, using existing resources more efficiently, making better uses of previous IT expenditure". It means jack shit.

    159. Re:Early Development by oliverthered · · Score: 1

      Yep that's why I stopped going to Math at A level. Because the prick teaching the class had just learned math by wrote and obviously couldn't teach it.
      He also used to put off and move around the lessons all the time, so he could do some crap with football (or some other sport).

      Like your getting paid to tech Math you fucking moron, if you'd rather be doing sport. Fuck off and do that, but don't take the Math course your just gona look like some selfish ignorant prick.

      --
      thank God the internet isn't a human right.
    160. Re:Early Development by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Teachers, depending upon level, might bet between 5 and 30 hours or so a week with a student.

      I assume this would be as a practical exercise in probability and/or statistics?

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    161. Re:Early Development by oliverthered · · Score: 1

      Belief in some supernatural force that will forgive all your fuck-ups is way too easy and kids get encouraged far too early in their lives.

      --
      thank God the internet isn't a human right.
    162. Re:Early Development by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      No teaching isn't easy

      So all of it's hard?

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    163. Re:Early Development by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Nice trick - replacing "scientists" with "lawyers" - but no cigar.

      But the answer to your question is probably "money".

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    164. Re:Early Development by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Scientists are the mad freaks who are hell bent on destroying the world

      ... which they think is more than 6,000 years old - how ridiculous is that? Plus some of them say we're descended from monkeys!

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    165. Re:Early Development by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      First, stop worrying about "education in the U.S." and warry

      Worry.

      about education in your state. Second, get rid of teacher's tenure.

      Which specific teacher?

    166. Re:Early Development by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      There is no evidence that funding has any appreciable effect on the quality of education.

      That explains why Sudan, which spends as close to zero as makes any difference, has the second highest literacy rate in the world, beaten only by Liberia which spends even less.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    167. Re:Early Development by Have+Brain+Will+Rent · · Score: 1

      You might draw that conclusion, I suppose, if you think there are only two possibilities.

      --
      The tyrant will always find a pretext for his tyranny - Aesop
    168. Re:Early Development by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      I think the state of literacy in Sudan and Liberia have more to do with the fact that parents have more important things to focus on, like feeding their children.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    169. Re:Early Development by drsquare · · Score: 1

      Doctors are only respected because they make a lot of money.

    170. Re:Early Development by I8TheWorm · · Score: 1

      You can doubt what I'm saying if you want

      Actually I think your experience makes you more qualified to discuss this than most other people on /., certainly than me. I appreciate your insight and the link, I'll be reading up when I get a chance.

      --
      Saying Android is a family of phones is akin to saying Linux is a family of PCs.
    171. Re:Early Development by I8TheWorm · · Score: 1

      That's a tough one to argue, and I'm sure is different from school to school where athletic programs are prominent.

      I would venture a guess that Tennessee's programs bring in more revenue than they dole out in salaries. I do agree though that it sets a bad example that the often barely literate employees at a major university make more than the people that actually run it.

      OT, but I lived in Nashville for a little while and visited Knoxville... gorgeous part of the country over there.

      --
      Saying Android is a family of phones is akin to saying Linux is a family of PCs.
  3. Note: This is about AMERICAN students. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The title and summary don't make it clear, but this concerns American students at American colleges.

    1. Re:Note: This is about AMERICAN students. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course it is, this is an American website.

      However, I'm pretty confident the trends are reflected in most other countries.

    2. Re:Note: This is about AMERICAN students. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      What makes you think that Students in other countries are any different?

      Disclaimer: I graduated in 1975 with a Mech Eng BSc.
      My degree was very practical. We were given real situations and had to analyze them and suggest improvements in the systems. The we made those 'mods' and re ran the tests. We had to back it all up with sound facts, logic and maths.

      Fast forward to today.
      My nephew is doing a Computer Science degree here in the UK. I knew more about algorithms, compiler development and basic stuff at the end on my degree than he will grasp at the end of his some 35+ years later.

      Message to America. You are not alone here

    3. Re:Note: This is about AMERICAN students. by wonkavader · · Score: 1

      I'm an American. Why am I not pleased to hear we're not alone in this?

    4. Re:Note: This is about AMERICAN students. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's really little difference between the UK and America. You've got the same multinational corporations running the show, the same flawed political ideologies in play, and the same ignorant populace. It's not a new problem, either. It goes back decades, and really started to get worse when Reagan and Thatcher were in power.

  4. Will this be on the test? by BenSchuarmer · · Score: 1

    If it is, I'll memorize it. If not, I need to check my email.

  5. Logic Fail by MozeeToby · · Score: 5, Insightful

    [They still believe that...] plants obtain most of their mass from the soil rather than from the atmosphere

    How could this possibly work? Farmers ship millions of tons of foodstuffs every year, unless they're spreading an equal volume of human excrement on their fields they'd be farming in pit mines after a few decades. That doesn't even begin to address that the soil that plants actually grow in is only a matter of inches deep in many locations, or the fact that you can grow plants in water more efficiently than in soil. So yeah, I'd say we're missing some basic logic tools if biology majors can't think that one through.

    1. Re:Logic Fail by by+(1706743) · · Score: 2

      Duh, there's a lot of dirt in the rain...

    2. Re:Logic Fail by blair1q · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It points out the real problem with science education: we're not teaching the big facts and then delving into the intricacies, we're teaching the intricacies and hoping the big facts are obvious.

      It's nothing about "informal" or "principle-based" reasoning, it's just inadequate communication.

    3. Re:Logic Fail by turtledawn · · Score: 2

      Suburban kids go into biology and most of those think of it as pre-med. Farmers' kids have the sense to go into agronomics, which is where the money is, such as it is. Those suburban kids have probably never seen a farm field over the years to realize that (with decent to ok management) it doesn't gradually sink into the ground.

      --
      Uh, "if it looks roughly mouse-shaped according to my infra-red sensitive pit, eat it"? --Chris Burke 09-08-10
    4. Re:Logic Fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      The problem is that they were never asked the question, and never asked themselves the question either (presumably because they had simply assumed the mass come from the soil from a young age). This was never addressed in any of my science courses which included two highschool biology courses - though I did have to memorize the details of the Krebs cycle and RNA transcription (which I have since forgotten).

      I am somewhat embarrassed to admit that I did not realize that the bulk of the mass came from the air until I vacationed in China long after graduation, and saw large trees growing from tiny pads of dirt on mountain cliffs. That was a strong indication that the mass was most likely coming from the air.

    5. Re:Logic Fail by $RANDOMLUSER · · Score: 2

      I think that was the whole point, that they weren't "thinking things through", rather, they were intuitively "knowing" (i.e. assuming) things that weren't correct.

      --
      No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism. - Winston Churchill
    6. Re:Logic Fail by WarwickRyan · · Score: 2

      Huh. They teach you in high school biology that 60%+ of the mass of most organisms is water.

    7. Re:Logic Fail by Bureaucromancer · · Score: 2

      Agreed. There may well be (no, never mind, there definitely is) a failing in the teaching things like method and reasoning, but this is the great failing. The whole system is tailored to teach detail and intricacy, and to largely do so by rote. The only thing this will teach is the regurgitation of specific facts and techniques - it certainly won't impart any kind of understanding.

    8. Re:Logic Fail by noidentity · · Score: 2

      Well, for one, isn't most plant weight due to water? Farmers certainly put millions of tons of water on their farms every year.

    9. Re:Logic Fail by ElectricTurtle · · Score: 1

      A lot of life is mostly water, including you.

      --
      I support the Slashcott and will not be reading or commenting from 2/10/14 to 2/17/14. Beta is steaming pile of dog shit
    10. Re:Logic Fail by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      And you're ignoring the fact that farming for more than a few years in a row in most places completely depletes the soil and growth stops.

      And you're ignoring fertilizers which replenish the soil.

      And growing plants 'in water' requires you to saturate the water with nutrients that are absorbed into the plant.

      Just because you don't understand how the soil gets replenished, doesn't mean its not.

      And for the record, farmers have on many occasions fucked themselves into unfarmable land by raping it year after year rather than allowing it to recover and rotating crops.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    11. Re:Logic Fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      From personal experience:
      Step 1) Non-farmer lifestyle and not thinking about it much.
      Step 2) Taught nutrients travel into the plant through the roots, and know enough that roots grow down.
      Step 3A) Fail to realize/get taught Soil != Dirt != Any clump of Earth.
      Step 3B) Plants die, decompose, renew soil is assumed
      Step 4) Pass biology course in 8th grade, with one chapter on plants and never touch the subject again.

      Physics and tech were always more interesting for me. It wasn't till my junior year of college it dinged on me when hearing about plants that grow on tree branches in certain parts of the world that: Plants = A Lot of Carbon = CO2 from air, not soil.

    12. Re:Logic Fail by PRMan · · Score: 2, Funny

      I think you'll find more critical thinking and science at the Creation Museum than the average freshman could fathom. While you may not agree with their evidence that evolution and the big bang have major holes that cannot be explained and that some evidence points to creation more than to evolution, your statement only proves that you have never been to the Creation Museum, thereby committing exactly what the Slashdot article is outlining: people making scientific "statements of fact" without ever considering the evidence.

      --
      Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
    13. Re:Logic Fail by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 1

      You ugly bag, you.

    14. Re:Logic Fail by hedwards · · Score: 1

      That's a problem. But it's more of a symptom really. The big problem with science and education is that the educational establishment doesn't do scientific analysis of the teaching methodology that they're looking at implementing or ones that they've already put in place.

      The issue there is that some things despite being complete bunk, end up living in the districts for long periods of time. And assumptions about how students as a whole function and learn are never actually tested for any sort of validity, nor are the outliers ever evaluated to see if there's a reason to change.

      Science is a fairly high level skill in some respects, and while you can introduce elements of it quite early, you have to be really mindful of boring kids away from it with stupid things like meal worms.

      All in all, I'd be more concerned with the exposure to bunk studies that the media seems fascinated by. If it hasn't been peer reviewed, replicated at a minimum, it shouldn't be reported outside the academic establishment, or publications catering to the same.

    15. Re:Logic Fail by sorak · · Score: 1

      Unless I misread it, this is about everybody who takes the equivalent of Biology 101. Since that class is a requisite in many universities, we are talking about college students of all majors. I would hope that biology majors did better in this respect, but is it no surprise that business majors, philosophy majors, etc, just memorized the material and never put much thought into their implications?

    16. Re:Logic Fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is a reason lots of pre-med college courses require highschool physics and chemistry, but not highschool biology, the concepts of physics and chemistry are way more important than the memorization drills learned in biology.

    17. Re:Logic Fail by blueg3 · · Score: 1

      Actually, the OP is a great example of how applying principle-based reasoning (well, just regular reasoning, in this case) gets you much better results than people using casual reasoning based on their personal experiences.

      You can't possibly teach all the "big facts" -- like "plants get their nutrients from the air". If the big facts you teach are basic principles and you require that people apply thought to those facts to adapt them to a particular question, then that's exactly what the article is saying. :p

    18. Re:Logic Fail by starfishsystems · · Score: 1

      That's really interesting. So there's something going on at the Creation Museum which permits an understanding of natural processes impossible anywhere else?

      Because otherwise, why would you insist that someone has to go there in order to "consider the evidence"? Surely the evidence is all around us. If there are observations or experiments to be validated, they can be made anywhere. It doesn't require a pilgrimage to some special place.

      --
      Parity: What to do when the weekend comes.
    19. Re:Logic Fail by LateArthurDent · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It points out the real problem with science education: we're not teaching the big facts and then delving into the intricacies, we're teaching the intricacies and hoping the big facts are obvious.

      It's nothing about "informal" or "principle-based" reasoning, it's just inadequate communication.

      Ugh. We should be teaching the intricacies and allow the students to derive the big facts. Doing otherwise reinforces memorization. If you do it your way then yes, they'd be able to tell you that plants get most of their mass from the atmosphere, but they still wouldn't understand it. They'd be reciting trivia.

      The problem is that we don't teach people how to reason. Look at how MozeeToby explained the big fact. He used a number of intricacies, "farmers ship millions of tons of foodstuffs every year", "plants grow in soil only inches deep", "plants can grow in water more efficiently than in soil." From these tools, he's able to derive the "big fact." He's not reciting trivia, he's giving you small facts and demonstrating that he understands their significance.

      Ideally, that's how science classes would be taught. You give the student the equations, you explain the theory. Then you don't ask them to recite them back to you on tests. You give them problems which force them to show understanding. Ask for the big fact in the test, "explain, and back up with reaction equations, where plants get most of their mass from. Explain how they acquire each chemical at every step of the process."

      I used to have a professor while in college for an EE class that insisted in individual oral exams. The class was small enough, but it still took him about two weeks to go through everyone, each time. When you were taking the exam, he'd start by pointing you to the blackboard with a calculator and asking you a tremendously complicated question, which you could solve if you really understood the material. Most people couldn't, but that's ok: He would ask you a somewhat simpler question, which, if you could solve would lead you part of the way to the answer to the original question. If you couldn't solve that, he'd break it up into simpler questions. Eventually, he'd break it down far enough that everyone would have an a-ha moment, and he'd grade you based on just how much he had to help you before you got the answer. I swear I learned more in that one class than in any EE course I had taken before, and most of it was right there during the exam. I had equations memorized, but I didn't understand them until I was forced to think.

    20. Re:Logic Fail by Skidborg · · Score: 1

      A biology major probably could think it through if they were sat down and given a couple hours to reason it out. It's just that they are never forced to do so.

      --
      Supporter of the +1 Over Dramatic mod option. In memory of apk.
    21. Re:Logic Fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would like to say that, as a biology (Course 7) major at MIT, senior undergraduate, I was unaware that most of the biomass of plants comes from the fixed CO2 than through the roots. It makes sense now, knowing that hydroponics exist and people generally don't put that much dissolvable carbon (eg sugar) into the water.

      Of course, despite the fact that I was unaware of this, I am about as knowledgeable as you can get as a 22 year old in protein folding, and hope to be an expert in my field in 15 years...

    22. Re:Logic Fail by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1, Informative

      How does the existence of the Tea Party illustrate that people are missing basic logic tools? Unless you are saying that if people had basic logic tools the Tea Party would never have been necessary?
      Or maybe you don't know what the basic point of the Tea Party is? The basic point is that the government cannot continue to spend more than it takes in indefinitely without a collapse at some point. Raising taxes does not solve the problem. Historically, the U.S. government has recieved about 18-19% of GDP in taxes (19% is the highest it has ever been), currently it is spending approximately 24% of GDP.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    23. Re:Logic Fail by noidentity · · Score: 1

      And water is made of two parts hydrogen, one part oxygen. Also, H is the eighth letter in the alphabet.

    24. Re:Logic Fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your thinking is as weak as the students you criticize.

      In this case, we do know that plants derive most of their mass from elements obtained atmospherically. So it's a hard example to work with. But let's pretend we don't.

      Your logic - "If plants got their mass from soil, farmers would be farming pit mines in a few decades" - isn't as obvious as you think.

      What if, for instance, plants DID get most of their mass from soil, and the soil was replenished in some other way (from the atmosphere via a mechanism not known)? If you're arguing that plants get their mass from the atmosphere, why not instead suggest the possibility that the SOIL gets its mass from the atmosphere? One seems - without external data - as likely as the other. Certainly mechanisms could (and probably do; rain being the most obvious) exist that transfer elements from the atmosphere into the soil.

      Like I said, this is a bad example because we do know the answer. But before you start criticizing, consider that maybe - just maybe - it's not as obvious as you think.

    25. Re:Logic Fail by Idarubicin · · Score: 1

      How could this possibly work? Farmers ship millions of tons of foodstuffs every year, unless they're spreading an equal volume of human excrement on their fields they'd be farming in pit mines after a few decades.

      I never thought about the question until I read this article, and I suspect that many people are in the same boat. (I do work as a biologist and biochemist, but the issue hadn't crossed my mind before, and I don't know if my 'gut feeling' would have been right or not.)

      But then I thought a bit more about the question. In the United States, cereal crops (wheat, rice, oats, barley, etc.) yield an average of about 6000 kg of grain per hectare each year. That's just 600 grams (a little over a pound) per square meter of cultivated land. Assuming soil density falling somewhere between 1 and 1.5 grams per cubic centimeter, that works out to shaving off between 0.4 and 0.6 millimeters - about two hundredths of an inch - each year. And that doesn't account for the water content of the crop, which we all know is added by rain or irrigation, and shouldn't count against our soil use.

      In other words, the amount we take off, even if it came entirely from the soil, would only consume a couple of inches every century. On geological timescales that's a fair bit, but it's totally imperceptible over one or two growing seasons, and only meaningful to a farmer if he stays in one place for several generations. Even then, our hypothetical science-minded farmer who wonders why his field doesn't sink away might suspect that the soil is being topped up by deposition of dust from the air, or the continuous slow wear and erosion of the bedrock beneath his field.

      Incidentally, the above calculation is something that science students really need to know (or be taught) to do: basic back-of-the-envelope order-of-magnitude calculations for testing the basic reasonableness of hypotheses.

      --
      ~Idarubicin
    26. Re:Logic Fail by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 2

      Actually it is a fail from the quote taken from the article. The actual study says that this is the misconception: "Gases such as carbon dioxide lack sufficient mass to lead to the development of dry biomass in plants. Plants get mass from the soil."
      So, the actual problem is that students believe that plants get most of their dry bio-mass from the soil, which is incorrect.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    27. Re:Logic Fail by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 1

      It points out the real problem with science education: we're not teaching the big facts and then delving into the intricacies, we're teaching the intricacies and hoping the big facts are obvious.

      I disagree. The problem is we're concentrating on teaching facts instead of methods. "2+2=4" is a fact. Knowing how to add is a method. It's the process of forming opinions that is broken, because science students aren't learning to reason logically and follow a logical methodology when forming opinions. Another problem is our focus on having an answer even when we don't have data. We punish students for not guessing, which trains them to guess instead of honestly answer "I don't know" then follow a proper method to find out. It should be acceptable in an exam to answer, "I don't know but I'll find out with some reference materials or experiments". Worse yet, we train students to not only guess, but then to defend their guesses using rhetoric. It's not about coming to correct decisions, but about convincing others that you're right.

      So here's the thing we take what six years of science classes at a minimum? And then many go on to college and get a degree. Yet I found myself last year at the bar talking to a guy with a Bachelors of Science degree and he couldn't even describe to me what the scientific method was, let alone how one would apply it to solve a simple problem. That is what the focus on memorizing facts has gotten us. Doubtless many of his peers could still dredge up a definition of "science" from memory, but how many could apply it? How many do apply it every day to make decisions rationally?

      Screw our educational system. Teach kids math and informal logic and critical thinking and proper research skills. Screw standardized closed book tests. Lets reduce the number of tests kids take to prove how much they know and how good their teachers are and give a few hands on tests a year where they have to actually demonstrate a real understanding of how to do something or how something works or how and why something happened.

    28. Re:Logic Fail by Cyberax · · Score: 1

      And your post proves that you don't understand what 'scientific method' is and why Creation Museum has nothing resembling science.

      Oh, and also all your other assertions are wrong.

    29. Re:Logic Fail by blair1q · · Score: 2

      If you do it your way then yes, they'd be able to tell you that plants get most of their mass from the atmosphere, but they still wouldn't understand it.

      No, if you do it my way then they learn that plants get their mass from the air and how it happens, instead of just how it happens. They'll also learn how you go from an observed fact (plants aren't taking mass from the ground, where's it coming from? it must be the water or the air) and figure out how it works. That's science.

      Nature doesn't give you intricate theories that you can turn into facts, it just gives you facts. If you want mathematics, that's down the hall.

    30. Re:Logic Fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sure that most people could figure that out, if they spent a few minutes thinking about it. I didn't know it... but I hadn't ever particularly thought about it. If it had come up, I'm sure I would have figured it out.

      I think the indictment is not that believing plants obtain most of their mass from the soil is ridiculous, but that it's ridiculous that somebody who is a student in the field hasn't spent a few minutes examining basic assumptions.

    31. Re:Logic Fail by Rhys · · Score: 1

      It isn't the problem with science education, it is the problem with the majority of the education we do in the US, science or otherwise. Memorize all this crap and regurgitate it on an easy to grade scantron(tm) test that asks you to memorize only not synthesize.

      --
      Slashdot Patriotism: We Support our Dupes!
    32. Re:Logic Fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Does the explanatory plaque for the Creation Museum's saddle-wearing triceratops properly cite the paleotoonists of the University of Hanna-Barbera and their ground-breaking work "The Flintstones?"

    33. Re:Logic Fail by LateArthurDent · · Score: 1

      If you do it your way then yes, they'd be able to tell you that plants get most of their mass from the atmosphere, but they still wouldn't understand it.

      No, if you do it my way then they learn that plants get their mass from the air and how it happens, instead of just how it happens. They'll also learn how you go from an observed fact (plants aren't taking mass from the ground, where's it coming from? it must be the water or the air) and figure out how it works. That's science.

      Nature doesn't give you intricate theories that you can turn into facts, it just gives you facts. If you want mathematics, that's down the hall.

      Nature might gives you facts, but it gives no way to communicate those facts without mathematics. That trip down the hall is a requirement for anyone doing science. It's the difference between the dude in the internet posting his butchered layman's explanation of relativity which he read in a pop-science book and the engineers who used it when designing GPS.

    34. Re:Logic Fail by WarwickRyan · · Score: 1

      This is slashdot. What do you expect me to do? Actually READ the f***** article? ;)

      Still seems odd that so many students fail, what with all of the talk right now of growing carbon sinks..

    35. Re:Logic Fail by polebridge · · Score: 1

      Dust blows in to replenish the soil? I look at the dust on my bookcase here and believe i could grow oats, peas, beans, and barley. Not lettuce, though. The dust bunnies from under the bed would eat it.

    36. Re:Logic Fail by treeves · · Score: 1

      Really? They don't teach that plants turn CO2 and H20 into CH20 (generic form) and O2 using photosynthesis? How do you miss the fact that the C02 is coming from the atmosphere with all the news about global warming, and that the water comes from clouds?
      The problem looks like not being able to see the connection between one big idea and another.

      --
      ...the future crusty old bastards are already drinking the Kool-Aid.
    37. Re:Logic Fail by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1
      Did your course somehow fail to cover photosynthesis. I dropped biology at age 16, but I remember covering where plants get all of their required elements from and by what mechanisms.

      I am about as knowledgeable as you can get as a 22 year old in protein folding, and hope to be an expert in my field in 15 years

      I don't like to break it to you, but you're doing the wrong degree if this is your goal. If it isn't too late, switch to physics now and then return to biology as a postdoc.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    38. Re:Logic Fail by blair1q · · Score: 1

      That whooshing sound you hear is the bernoulli equation.

      The point wasn't that math is not necessary. It's that the only things mathematical extrapolations will teach you is more math. Nature can be described by math, but predicting nature with math is a gamble. That's why "the scientific method" includes testing hypotheses. So that people don't do the math, come up with the next formula in the family (which can be 100% mathematically correct), and simply state that this is how the universe works. Though that's what you see a lot in "science" publications, when hypotheses are presented as likelihoods rather than SWAGs (I'm looking at you, String Theory).

      Science is the part about figuring out how things actually work. Math is the part about figuring out what else you can do with the tools you used to do that.

    39. Re:Logic Fail by blair1q · · Score: 1

      What they teach is that plants turn CO2 into Oxygen, which we breathe, and Sugar, which we eat.

      What they don't teach, because it's not anthropocentric, is that this is where the plant gets almost all of its non-water mass.

      It seems obvious once you know it, but it's not obvious when all you've done is spend a semester drawing pictures of chemicals going around in circles, never once thinking of them as more than individual molecules, because that's not on the test.

    40. Re:Logic Fail by blair1q · · Score: 1

      The process for addition is also a fact. One we teach. Long-division as well.

      Math we do pretty good at; science, however, we're fucking up royally by not focussing on the process at all.

      It's as though we expect the kids to grok the process from a demonstration of the results (generally pointing out the trivia about it) and a few cartoony diagrams.

    41. Re:Logic Fail by sensei+moreh · · Score: 1

      Reminds me of this book Consider a Circular Cow

      --
      Geology - it's not rocket science; it's rock science
    42. Re:Logic Fail by lgw · · Score: 2

      The Creation Museum makes a point very related to TFA: evolution as typically taught in high school is nonsense. That's the reason this creationism stuff just won't die! If you teach any science as a set of facts to memorize, then when someone points out that many of those "facts" are wrong, you're left with no reason to believe the science. I understand that introductory material needs to be simplified, but continuing to teach debunked "examples" of evolution from when it was a new idea isn't helping here, nor is oversimplifying the basics to the point of being wrong.

      Heck, I had biology teacher who was motivated and good at the mechanis of teaching, but I was never taught the definition of evolution ("the statistical distribution of alleles in a population changes over time"), or any of the math related to it, or even that is was a mathematical model. I was never taught why the fact that cladistic taxonomy works means that the theory of common ancestry has made millions of successful predictions. This stuff was never taught as science, that is, as a set of simple first principles from which you can deduce most of modern biology. But I did memorize a bunch of stuff about cell activity, all of which i have forgotten.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    43. Re:Logic Fail by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 1

      The process for addition is also a fact.

      You can make that argument because math is provable, but it is a semantic argument about the definition of 'fact". (I might note that I recall being taught to memorize the answers to multiplication problems.) Science, however, is a process and not a fact. It is not provable nor indisputably correct but rather is logically supported by inductive evidence derived from deductive experimentation. Either way, making people memorize the definition of the scientific method doesn't really get us anywhere either. We need to teach an understanding of the application and appreciation for the results.

      It's as though we expect the kids to grok the process from a demonstration of the results (generally pointing out the trivia about it) and a few cartoony diagrams.

      Rather, I suspect at this point most of the instructors don't grok the process either and so teach "the materials" as a sort of memorization exercise just like every other subject taught these days. I doubt instructors expect students to be able to understand and apply the scientific method because most of the instructors just aren't very bright themselves and don't understand it themselves, or the importance of understanding logic and science in everyday life, or in many cases that there is anything to understand beyond memorizing a phrase that describes "science".

    44. Re:Logic Fail by LateArthurDent · · Score: 1

      The point wasn't that math is not necessary. It's that the only things mathematical extrapolations will teach you is more math.

      I understand that was your point, but I still disagree with it. I think that can be true, and I think that it often is true, but that goes back to teaching people how to reason instead of teaching trivia and specific algorithms.

      The reason I used relativity with my example is that you can't understand it without math. You absolutely can't. People who understand the math can give you some simplified consequence of the theory, but you are guaranteed to misunderstand that simplification and apply it incorrectly when reasoning out consequences that arise from the simplification.

      Now, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with telling people layman's explanations for things. I'm just saying that shouldn't be confused with education. If you're in school learning a science, that's not what should be happening. They should give you the fundamentals first, like all that math. Then they should give you detailed theory. Then they should force you to think about the consequences of the theory and determine whether you're coming to the correct conclusions as a method to determine whether you've grasped the theory and are able to apply it in the future. Because that's the point of learning about that stuff in the first place, ability to apply it.

      Science is the part about figuring out how things actually work. Math is the part about figuring out what else you can do with the tools you used to do that.

      I don't think that distinction exists. I think science is the part about figuring out how things actually work, and math is how you describe what you've figured out. Your amusing bernoulli equation comment is probably a reference to this xkcd strip. Well, the thing about what causes lift in airfoils is another really good example of what I'm talking about. The "longer distance" explanation is a layman's explanation that works on some levels, but is fundamentally incorrect. Air molecules hitting the wing in a Newtonian fashion is another explanation often given that works on some levels, but is fundamentally incorrect. You simply can't explain the science of airfoils satisfactorily without going into math, part of which is the bernoulli equation. So a teacher should be giving the students all those equations, and then ask that question in the exam: "explain how airplanes can fly upside down." They're not just regurgitating theory, they're forced to prove they understand it.

      That's why "the scientific method" includes testing hypotheses. So that people don't do the math, come up with the next formula in the family (which can be 100% mathematically correct), and simply state that this is how the universe works.

      I agree with you 100%, which is why I mentioned that tests shouldn't be about reciting the details back to you. Exams are a good time to talk about the "big facts" as you called them. The students have all the information they need to figure out what those facts are, so let's see if they can do that. Ask them about the consequences of what they've learned and see if they can apply it to actually figure out how the universe works.

    45. Re:Logic Fail by blair1q · · Score: 1

      The process of science is a fact as well.

      It's what we're really trying to teach in science class.

      Or rather, it's what we aren't teaching, for reasons you get in the second part of your post.

      The start of every session of a science class should involve a recitation of the scientific method. The rest of what goes on there is demonstration of a variety of techniques and applications for it. And the end of a lecture on any complicated subprocess should involve a summary of the subprocess' place in the system from which it comes.

    46. Re:Logic Fail by MadUndergrad · · Score: 1

      How does the existence of the Tea Party illustrate that people are missing basic logic tools?....The basic point is that the government cannot continue to spend more than it takes in indefinitely without a collapse at some point. Raising taxes does not solve the problem.

      The fact that you take this idiotic statement as a gospel truth -as indicated by the certainty with which you write it- illustrates the problem. If the rest of them think like that (and it seems they do) then you have proved GP's point. The first part is correct, sure, but the second statement wouldn't be worth responding to if it weren't such a depressingly common "fact".

    47. Re:Logic Fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So there's something going on at the Creation Museum which permits an understanding of natural processes impossible anywhere else?

      Because otherwise, why would you insist that someone has to go there in order to "consider the evidence"? Surely the evidence is all around us. If there are observations or experiments to be validated, they can be made anywhere. It doesn't require a pilgrimage to some special place.

      If travel is outside your time and budget, then consider a thought experiment. How much physics (particle and astronomical) would you need to learn to make a convincing case that black holes do not exist to 90 to 99% of the population?

      Keep in mind you have to learn more than your above average layman and likely more than just about anyone without a physics degree. At that point, you distort the rest and polk holes in the existing, commonly-accepted theories. Any gaps in knowledge or anomolies (of which, there are plenty in that field), can be exploited. IMO, it would not be easy. That is, in the best possible light, creation science.

    48. Re:Logic Fail by Hucko · · Score: 1

      The basic point is that the government cannot continue to spend more than it takes in indefinitely without a collapse at some point.

      While this particular point is true, everything I listened to from the Tea Party:

      1. calls for releasing restraints on institutions or industries that show themselves to be psychopathic and self-absorbed
      2. calls for reduction on spending in areas that plainly are the best investment to get better returns in the future --- excluding the USA's "national health" program which went from primitive to medieval post Obama
      3. ignores the enormous military black holes
      4. adds to the roar for war-mongerers that seem to be congregating in powerful positions.

      rarely have I heard any pro-Tea Party rant say anything intelligent except the adage you can't take out more than you put in.

      Why does this Australian care? Because that shrill party is messing up my backyard! >:

      --
      Semi-automatic amateur armchair Australian philosopher; conjecture ready at any moment...
    49. Re:Logic Fail by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      I assume that you disagree with the statement that raising taxes does not solve the problem. The fact is that we have historical evidence that it does not. As I pointed out, historically the U.S. government has received tax revenues between 18-19% of GDP. It does not vary much even though tax rates have in the past been much higher than they are today. Since the U.S. government has never had tax revenues above 20% of GDP, even when the top marginal tax rate was 92%, how do you propose raising taxes enough to cover the government spending 24% of GDP?

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    50. Re:Logic Fail by Jawnn · · Score: 1

      Or maybe you don't know what the basic point of the Tea Party is? The basic point is that the government cannot continue to spend more than it takes in indefinitely without a collapse at some point.

      I know that full well, and so do the Tea Baggers. What they demonstrated over and over is that they don't have the first idea about how to fix that. They support the party that has, by a staggering margin, done more to increase the deficit every time they are in a position to do so. In other words, they are suckers for sound bites and lack even the most basic critical thinking skills to see through the Republican bullshit.

    51. Re:Logic Fail by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry, but the last two years proves that not to be true. The Democrats got tired of people claiming that the Republicans spent more than they did and put spending into overdrive the last two years. Even under Bush the biggest increases to the deficit occurred when the Democrats controlled Congress (you know the people that actually determine what the budget is going to be). Under Clinton, the reductions in the deficit occurred when the Republicans controlled Congress. You are the one who is a sucker for soundbites. You bought into the idea that the President controls spending and therefore since Clinton was a Democrat and deficits went down under him and Bush was a Republican and deficits went up under him, Democrats must be the deficit busters.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    52. Re:Logic Fail by cool_arrow · · Score: 1

      Exactly. I think teaching general scientific principles is the way to go. They should be taught in depth. The effects of the interactions of these principles can be better understood then and possibly deduced from the principles.

  6. Interesting Litmus Test by iethree · · Score: 2

    Why is litmust test of biological knowledge (for college freshman) whether they know where plants get the majority of there mass? I'm not a biologist... but that doesn't seem to be the deepest or most fundamental principle of biology...

    1. Re:Interesting Litmus Test by alta · · Score: 1

      Litmus(t) test FAIL :)

      Just teasing, I had to look it up to be sure.

      And I'm no bio person either.

      --
      Do not meddle in the affairs of sysadmins, for they are subtle, and quick to anger.
    2. Re:Interesting Litmus Test by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 1

      It's surely not "the" litmus test - but it makes sense in that context, namely students being able to recite the main pathways of plant biochemistry but being unable to integrate that knowledge to answer this question. If you truly understand the Calvin cycle - the reaction series that takes care of carbon fixation from the air in plants - you should be aware where plant biomass comes from.

      --
      Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    3. Re:Interesting Litmus Test by chronosan · · Score: 1

      Understanding photosynthesis seems like it'd be very important in biology. There are very few living things that don't depend on it. Even mushrooms need something that was once alive due to photosynthesis to sponge off of.

    4. Re:Interesting Litmus Test by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wouldn't think that examining their knowledge about the "deepest or most fundamental" idea of a particular subject would be a good litmus test. Something like this shows that they understand the biological processes involved rather than possessing the ability to regurgitate facts.

    5. Re:Interesting Litmus Test by The_mad_linguist · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Actually, I think that the assertion that most of a plant's mass comes from the soil is correct.

      The majority of plant species are mostly water by mass, and water enters a plant primarily through the roots.

    6. Re:Interesting Litmus Test by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, this is the sort of stuff that children aged 5 to 6 learn in European schools. It's among the most basic of common knowledge that most people have, and is something that every science major (regardless of any specialization) should know.

    7. Re:Interesting Litmus Test by $RANDOMLUSER · · Score: 1

      And the carbon comes from the atmosphere, which is what the structure is made of.

      --
      No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism. - Winston Churchill
    8. Re:Interesting Litmus Test by nomadic · · Score: 1

      But the structure is only a small part of the mass.

    9. Re:Interesting Litmus Test by The_mad_linguist · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but if you have a plant that's 90% water by mass, who cares where the carbon in the non-water portion comes from?

    10. Re:Interesting Litmus Test by nedlohs · · Score: 1

      Sure if you don't read the questions.

    11. Re:Interesting Litmus Test by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Its from a poll they did of harvard graduates. Most did not get the right answer and thought the mass of a plant comes from soil and water from the roots. Really its CO2 and water vapor through the stomata. They taught us this poll they did and thats why I know the right answer. I think they just wanted to cover their ass incase anybody asked their graduates the same question.

    12. Re:Interesting Litmus Test by mibe · · Score: 1

      Well, er, me. The carbon-based part is the complicated fun bit.

    13. Re:Interesting Litmus Test by l2718 · · Score: 1

      Actually, I think that the assertion that most of a plant's mass comes from the soil is correct. The majority of plant species are mostly water by mass, and water enters a plant primarily through the roots.

      For this reason biologists (including the paper under debate) are careful to define biomass as the mass excluding water.

    14. Re:Interesting Litmus Test by blueg3 · · Score: 1

      Surely those silly scientists miss this ingenious answer!

      Wait, let's check the paper:

      6. a mature maple tree can have a mass of 1 ton or more (dry biomass, after
      removing the water), yet it starts from a seed that weighs less than 1 gram. Which
      of the following processes contributes the most to this huge increase in biomass?
      circle the correct answer.
      (A) absorption of mineral substances from the soil via the roots
      (B) absorption of organic substances from the soil via the roots
      (C) incorporation of CO2
        gas from the atmosphere into molecules by green leaves
      (D) incorporation of H2
      o from the soil into molecules by green leaves
      (E) absorption of solar radiation into the leaf

      and

      3. the trees in the rain forest contain molecules of chlorophyll (c55H72o5n4Mg).
      Decide whether each of the following statements is true (t) or false (F) about
      the atoms in those molecules. Some of the atoms in the chlorophyll came from...
      T F carbon dioxide in the air
      T F sunlight that provided energy for photosynthesis
      T F water in the soil
      T F nutrients in the soil
      T F glucose produced by photosynthesis
      T F the seed that the tree grow from

    15. Re:Interesting Litmus Test by icebraining · · Score: 1

      My thoughts exactly.

      And I'm pretty sure that the plants that grow underwater don't get their mass from the atmosphere.(although they may not get it from the soil either).

    16. Re:Interesting Litmus Test by kmcarr · · Score: 1

      Why is litmust test of biological knowledge (for college freshman) whether they know where plants get the majority of there mass?

      All of the questions revolve around the carbon cycle. The point is to make sure that college students understand the carbon cycle so that they can discuss global climate change in every college class from physics to poetry.

    17. Re:Interesting Litmus Test by TeethWhitener · · Score: 2

      To be fair, I have a Ph. D. in chemistry from a very prestigious university and I thought some of these questions were inappropriately tough. The chlorophyll one sticks out in my mind as being both tough (need to know the pathway for chlorophyll biosynthesis) and wrong: the test indicated that it was false that some of the atoms come from glucose produced by photosynthesis. Without knowing the metabolic pathway leading to chlorophyll, there's no telling if those carbon atoms were derived from glucose or from amino acids or lipids. And, as far as I can remember, the phytol side chain on chlorophyll a and b is synthesized from acetyl-coA units, which come directly from glycolysis, and hence, glucose. While I tend to agree that scientific education is flawed, and even that it is flawed in the ways that are highlighted in the paper, I don't think this particular study is the greatest metric of the effects of these flaws on student understanding.

    18. Re:Interesting Litmus Test by blueg3 · · Score: 1

      I agree. Some of the questions are also particularly vague or misleading. A number of them still manage to do the job of measuring reasonably well what kind of reasoning students are using.

    19. Re:Interesting Litmus Test by The_mad_linguist · · Score: 1

      Also, given how fast the water cycle churns, if you look back far enough you can say "all of the above". You could also say that at one point some of the hydrogen in chlorophyll was pissed out by Elvis, and have pretty good odds of being correct.

    20. Re:Interesting Litmus Test by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      I really want D to be true for some plant. Imagine plants growing like huge balloons, floating away, and occasionally exploding in fireballs...

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    21. Re:Interesting Litmus Test by bdabautcb · · Score: 0

      IAAB. Not to be a critic, but water is not a fundamental attribute of soil. A property of soil is its ability to hold water, and water content is an attribute of a given soil at a given time, but that does not imply that the water mass of a plant comes out of the soil from which it is derived. Example: water a houseplant, then do not water it for a month. The plant will extract some water from the soil, the rest of the water will drain or evaporate. At the end of the month, you still have the same soil that you started with, but it will contain very little water, most of which has not been added to the mass of or transpired by the plant. - bodaciouswaggler

      --
      Koalas. They're telepathic. Plus, they control the weather. -Margaret
    22. Re:Interesting Litmus Test by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And like you, structure != mass.

    23. Re:Interesting Litmus Test by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While I agree with the underlying point, you may be overthinking the question. I only skimmed, but not sure the age range. If this is evaluation of 2nd year students after a one year intro sequence I can sort of understand the underlying logic... At this level everyone has heard of the Calvin cycle and might have even memorized the structure of acetyl-CoA -- but most of them will have no clue what it means. In that case the expected "logic" might be that chlorophyll is involved in photosynthesis, and therefore the carbons must come from elsewhere. I would expect that seniors might get the ambiguity - but even then, a lot of bio seniors get by without o-chem let alone biochem.

  7. Math Illiteracy leads to science illiteracy by ral · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Science illiteracy is strongly rooted in math illiteracy. Cliff Mass, a Seattle area Professor of Meteorology, gives his incoming freshman students a math test. This is a test of basic math skills that should be mastered before high school. Yet the average score for college freshman science students is only 58%.

    You can find the answers to the above test in his blog article.

    1. Re:Math Illiteracy leads to science illiteracy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Math education sucks. It never ceases to amaze me how something that can be very interesting is reduced to drudgery, rote memorization, and mechanical busy work.

      Teach math with applications and the folks who want to go onto becoming "pure" mathematicians can do that in grad school.

      Calculus didn't make any sense to me until I had physics. Sets didn't make any sense until I had computer science and business stats.

    2. Re:Math Illiteracy leads to science illiteracy by compro01 · · Score: 1

      He ought to add a percentage question or two to that test. I'm frequently amazed by the number of people who cannot correctly calculate sales tax or a discount.

      --
      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
    3. Re:Math Illiteracy leads to science illiteracy by roman_mir · · Score: 2

      I disagree. Math is not science.

      Math is a creative process of seeking answers to questions, which are purely imaginative.

      So from the very beginning, Math is rooted in imagination - imagining an abstract problem to solve for the heck of it.

      Secondly Math is about finding an interesting 'beautiful' to the mind solution to the problem that was imagined.

      Science on the other hand is about observing phenomena and trying to find the mechanisms by which the phenomena can be explained. Science is about discovery of natural phenomena and finding answers to the question: how does that work.

      Math is about coming up with a completely imagined idea and then trying to see if there is a way to grind this idea down to nuts and bolts that are already explained and showing the process.

      Math is about beauty of the mind and of the unknown but also of totally imagined.

      Science is about answering questions that are raised every day to how things work, how to make things work better, how to fix things, how to come up with new things based on already known things, how to find things that may exist but are not known yet.

      ---

      I'd say that math literacy is not extremely important for a natural scientist who is just observing and trying to come up with simple explanations of phenomena, but math will make it easier to generalize the explanation.

      You do not have to understand math at all to come up with reasonable explanations on how things work by doing observations and experiments.

      However math will make you a better scientist, because math does require and improve understanding of logic and of imagination and it allows to build frameworks for explaining natural phenomena that can be described very tightly through math.

    4. Re:Math Illiteracy leads to science illiteracy by hedwards · · Score: 1

      It's largely an issue of political tinkering. In WA state we have an assortment of standards that lead one to the logical conclusion that a zombie Dr. Seuss is running things. But, the bigger problem is that the standards may or may not be adhered to. People may be allowed to continue in classes without meeting the requirements, and those that are able to hit the standards for several years in the future aren't allowed to skip grades, due to the perception that it's harmful. Unfortunately, it's not always harmful, I fit in a lot better once I got to college, even though I was over a decade younger than the average age of 27 was for that campus.

      But, there's also the issue of increasing homework loads. Students aren't going to spend a lot of time contemplating the meaning of the work if they're spending several hours every day on homework. It's just not realistic, and represents a serious failing on the educational establishment to deal with that.

    5. Re:Math Illiteracy leads to science illiteracy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People like you are part of the problem with math today, kind of the flip side of the problem with people who just teach math using rote memorization. You think everyone should consider math to be as "beautiful" as you do. But beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so what do you do when the majority of your students don't think math is beautiful, despite your best efforts? Because that's what's going to happen in real life. Math is a part of science, and it should be taught as a part of science. That would go a long way towards improving math education, at least in the US.

    6. Re:Math Illiteracy leads to science illiteracy by TheCarp · · Score: 1

      Actually, math is not a process. Math is a purpose built, artificial human language designed to convey information about quantities and relationships between them.

      Math is not science, however, it is one of the most important, fundamental languages for conveying scientific thought. "v=d/t" is a statement in the language of math relating velocity to change in distance and time.

      I used to have a chemistry teacher in HS who said that, no matter what you plan to study later, as an undergrad, you should go for a hard sciences degree.

      His reasoning? Even something like pre-med is a waste of time. No matter what the later schooling, no matter what the job, anything and everything that you learn is going to be retaught later. Even med students... 4 years of pre-med is just going to mean that your first year of med school is mostly review.

      Kind of a waste when the logical training of a hard science and the required math will provide you with a logical foundation that can be applied to nearly ANY field.

      Need we be reminded of the medical researcher who "rediscovered" integration? Or the 50 or so other medical papers that referenced is "new method"? Just think how much time a math class could have saved some people... if they had only known about integrals sooner!

      --
      "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
    7. Re:Math Illiteracy leads to science illiteracy by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      I don't think everybody should consider Math to be beautiful, just like not everybody cares for Shakespeare or Leonardo or Michelangelo or Tchaikovsky. But Math is not science at all.

      Math is not science, no matter what your silly school curriculum is telling you. Math was never a science, it was always a toy for the mind and it was the most abstract of all toys of that kind, like painting or music or literature also are.

      Math is an artistic expression and this fact is lost on people, so consider this: you are on the side of teaching an art form in a way, that presents it as something else, and you are saying: people do not consider it to be beautiful.

      Of-course they do not, they never had a chance even to see Math for what it is in the first place. How can you make music interesting to anybody if you teach it as you teach math? You can't. Math is absolutely not science, it's an art form and people who put it into curriculum as science do not understand it themselves.

      You can never make students like math if you completely pervert the idea of it and that's what is done to students in the classes - they are taught an ugly perverted idea of what math is NOT under the name of Math. Obviously people hate it.

    8. Re:Math Illiteracy leads to science illiteracy by icebraining · · Score: 1

      Calculus didn't make any sense to me until I had physics. Sets didn't make any sense until I had computer science and business stats.

      Agreed. Even before physics and CS, I much rather use math to solve a real problem than simply get some generic input and follow an algorithm.

    9. Re:Math Illiteracy leads to science illiteracy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you serious? I don't doubt it, but that's surprising. During orientation to UCSD the college dean (or what ever) announced that the average incoming GPA of freshman was above a 4.0 that year. I've had a chance to meet some freshman and the general student body here, they did not deserve those 4.0's. Colleges also have a major issue of GPA inflation. When you have a high GPA at UCSD, or other colleges, odds are that you're just taller than the rest of the midgets. So comparing GPA's between schools becomes meaningless and how you preform in the class is determined by the other students rather than a flat score. So as much as highschools aren't doing their jobs, colleges are doing their part to keep science education down as well. It's really unfortunate :(

    10. Re:Math Illiteracy leads to science illiteracy by starfishsystems · · Score: 1

      Ow. I don't know any place where algebra and geometry are taught in elementary school, but I certainly can't imagine how anyone could graduate from high school without having routinely exercised this level of math skill along the way.

      But is innumeracy the real problem with science education at the university level? I think it goes deeper still. People evidently lack reasoning skills. TFA suggests they lack reasoning skills about science in particular, but I think it's more correct to say that we're failing to teach, and exercise, reasoning skills in general. Of course math education is compromised as well, but it's an effect, not the primary cause.

      Far from being just about science or math, reasoning affects everything. Nobody can usefully emerge from a liberal arts education, much less do good science, without formal reasoning skills. How can you compare Kant to Locke, say, if you can't coherently defend your argument?

      The material isn't hard to grasp. The essential ideas can be taught at the elementary school level (as indeed, sometimes, they are.) But they're not then something to be put on a shelf and taken down only for special occasions. That, I think, is where our mistake fundamentally lies. Our powers of reason have to be encouraged and exercised at every opportunity. It's not something to be done selectively, but comprehensively, until checking the validity of every argument - including our own internal arguments - becomes reflexive. Then we're in a real position to make sense of the world, whether we're looking at a mathematical derivation or an experimental methodology or a political campaign or a legal defense or an engineering blueprint.

      At the moment, about the only real bastion of logical rigor is mathematics. I can see why, on that basis, you'd identify math education as the answer to the issue, but respectfully I hold that it's a special case. It's an interesting case, no doubt about that.

      --
      Parity: What to do when the weekend comes.
    11. Re:Math Illiteracy leads to science illiteracy by roman_mir · · Score: 0

      Dude, you are wrong.

      Math is no more a language in itself than Music is.

      Is Music a language? Music is a way of expression, but is it a language?

      I don't see it. Math is not about scientific notation, in fact notation only gets in the way of understanding Math in many cases.

      Math is a way to think to express an idea, but its primary function is not for one person to explain something to another person, its goal in itself is for one person to get satisfaction from ability to solve a question. Of-course the question can be asked by this or other person.

      Here is a question: do all lines ever converge on a single plane? What if they are not on what we consider to be a plane but are on some other shape? Can lines be parallel forever? On any shape?

      So those are questions. If you can think of the way to answer them, it doesn't matter which words you use, whether you use any notations or not, it absolutely does not matter one bit, as long as you can find a way to answer it.

      Math is about answering questions, no matter how strange.

      Gov't and schools are KILLING education in math because of exactly what you just presented: thinking that math is about the specifics of the symbols or the language in which it is described.

      Who gives two fucks HOW you describe your answer? Can you answer the question or not, that's the only real meaningful definition of Math.

    12. Re:Math Illiteracy leads to science illiteracy by antifoidulus · · Score: 1

      Actually I was disappointed by something on his test, namely the question about cosines. He never states that the triangle is a rig ht triangle a nd doesn't put the little square indicating that the angle is a right angle. As a scientist he should know that just because something looks like x doesn't necessarily mean it is x....

    13. Re:Math Illiteracy leads to science illiteracy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't discount Science Illiteracy with no math influence.

      As a TA in the Geology 100 lab, we had a lab where students had to measure something in millimeters. Now, I would really like to say that this a joke, but it's not. More than one student came up to us and asked for a new rulers. Perplexed, we asked why. The answer was, "Well, it says to measure in millimeters, but this ruler only has inches and centimeters on it."

      And we were dumbfounded. These people graduated from high school and they had no understanding of the metric system - even though that should have been covered in any of the science classes they took in high school. It almost felt like illiteracy for illiteracy's sake.

    14. Re:Math Illiteracy leads to science illiteracy by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 1

      "Your total will be $8.24"
      Hands him a $10, 2x$1 & a Quarter.
      He hands me back the $2.
      I hand him back the $2 and tell me "Trust me."
      "Is this a Tip"
      "Just punch it into the computer."

      "Woa..."

      I did a mental faceplam. Seriously.

    15. Re:Math Illiteracy leads to science illiteracy by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 1

      And then I go and @#$ up the story. It was 3x$1s.

      I swear. I have my engineering degree.

    16. Re:Math Illiteracy leads to science illiteracy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd like to know how many people got 100%. He lists just about every other statistic.

    17. Re:Math Illiteracy leads to science illiteracy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can find the answers to the above test in his blog article.

      students who score 58% (or really anything less than 80) on that test really need to relearn math. there's nothing there that you shouldn't have down in grade 11.

    18. Re:Math Illiteracy leads to science illiteracy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thanks and WOW. Only 16% could do a simple algebra simplification. At least they feel good.

    19. Re:Math Illiteracy leads to science illiteracy by fishbowl · · Score: 2

      All people should learn arithmetic. The problem is, we expect all people to also learn mathematics.
      If there were two separate paths for arithmetic and mathematics, and the branch was early enough, then we could stop expecting people who aren't wired for mathematics to be able to grasp it, while not putting innumerates into the population as a result.

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
    20. Re:Math Illiteracy leads to science illiteracy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry, but you simply don't know what you are talking about. As a mathematician myself, I can tell you that you are seriously deluded. To help you learn more about what math is, I suggest you read what one of the greatest mathematicians of the 20th century, the late V.I. Arnold, had to say:

      Mathematics is a part of physics. Physics is an experimental science, a part of natural science. Mathematics is the part of physics where experiments are cheap.

      Read his full comments here. Arnold, of course, knew more mathematics and more about mathematics than you could ever hope to. Mathematics is a part of science; it is not a masturbatory playground for dilettantes such as yourself.

    21. Re:Math Illiteracy leads to science illiteracy by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      Nice troll.

    22. Re:Math Illiteracy leads to science illiteracy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Math is about coming up with a completely imagined idea...

      Math is about beauty of the mind and of the unknown but also of totally imagined.

      That's silly. It may look like that to you because you don't understand why mathematicians choose to look at a particular topic or because we have generalized the problem beyond recognition. Fundamentally, however, the problems mathematicians work on are based on questions about the real world.

    23. Re:Math Illiteracy leads to science illiteracy by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      If you are in applied math, then you are not an artist, you are a 'by-the-number' painter.

      Sure, you can apply math to whatever, but that's not what Math is about ultimately. It is there ultimately only for the personal satisfaction of being able to answer completely hypothetical questions that arise from completely imaginary situations.

      What does this tell you about the real world:

      "is it possible to have a shape, which can be turned into another shape without cutting it into pieces and purely by manipulating the shape in any number of dimensions, and if it is possible, what are the limits of doing it? Are there limits of turning one shape into another without cutting it?"

      This is a purely hypothetical, totally imagined question and the answer to it can be derived with Mathematics because Mathematics is not a science about anything. Ultimately it is just an ability to think and it is done to satisfy personal need to answer such questions. All Math discussed in this topic is totally applied and is not interesting.

    24. Re:Math Illiteracy leads to science illiteracy by cool_arrow · · Score: 1

      was wondering :D

    25. Re:Math Illiteracy leads to science illiteracy by cool_arrow · · Score: 1

      Mathematics is Queen of the Sciences and Arithmetic the Queen of Mathematics. She often condescends to render service to astronomy and other natural sciences, but under all circumstances the first place is her due. - C.F. Gauss Just playing devils advocate here. Your post reminded me of this quote. My math knowledge stinks. What would it take make math a science? Prove its consistency? If math is not science then surely no other "art" has been as influential. I'm curious.

  8. Ignorance of the Philosophy of Science by catchblue22 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I would speculate that at a logical philosophical level, a large number of students are ignorant of what science actually is. Science is often taught as a series of completed results, as a series of facts to be memorized. While to some extent this is difficult to avoid when teaching base knowledge, I suspect many students concentrate on what "gets them the grade", which is demonstrated knowledge of specific material, often memorized. In most high school programs, students are not adequately taught the reasons for knowledge (the International Baccalaureate program is often an exception to this). They are not explicitly taught logic and reason. And since the root of science is logic and reason, I would argue that most students are hobbled in their studies.

    --
    This and no other is the root from which a tyrant springs; when first he appears as a protector - Plato (423 to 327 BC)
    1. Re:Ignorance of the Philosophy of Science by doconnor · · Score: 2

      I recently discovered a remarkable fanfiction retelling of a fantasy series that could teach these lessons in an inspiring way: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

    2. Re:Ignorance of the Philosophy of Science by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I completely agree with your assessment based on my experiences in acquiring education. I always did well in all of my subject areas, but was naturally drawn toward math and science. When I got to high school, the science courses were primarily geared toward regurgitating facts. I liked solving problems rather than spouting out answers like a game of Trivial Pursuit, which is why I ended up looking at both electrical engineering and computer science for my collegiate major. Because of my experiences in high school, I avoided biology and chemistry like the plague when I got to college. Instead I majored in computer science, taking physics and astronomy as my lab science electives, with a philosophy minor. A better approach to teaching biology and chemistry in high school might have pushed me in a different direction. Likewise, I would bet the approach used at my high school resulted in other students going into those areas with serious misconceptions.

    3. Re:Ignorance of the Philosophy of Science by Creepy · · Score: 1

      Rote is a great way to force ideas into people's heads, whether true or not. Religion has done that for generations (and by that, I mean some religion has to be wrong, if not every religion, otherwise they would all be the same).

    4. Re:Ignorance of the Philosophy of Science by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wouldn't agree that its most students, maybe 30% are able to out perform the class to the point that there hobbled in class. My school didn't have an IB program, so once I realized that the teachers would not accelerate the class for me I started to sit at the back of the class and goof around, I think that started in grade 8 for me. Ihave graduates that can't think logically, I think these skills need to be developed in math and

    5. Re:Ignorance of the Philosophy of Science by Fujisawa+Sensei · · Score: 1

      I would speculate that at a logical philosophical level, a large number of students are ignorant of what science actually is. Science is often taught as a series of completed results, as a series of facts to be memorized. While to some extent this is difficult to avoid when teaching base knowledge, I suspect many students concentrate on what "gets them the grade", which is demonstrated knowledge of specific material, often memorized. In most high school programs, students are not adequately taught the reasons for knowledge (the International Baccalaureate program is often an exception to this). They are not explicitly taught logic and reason. And since the root of science is logic and reason, I would argue that most students are hobbled in their studies.

      Philosophy of science is a joke. With one exception, all of my physics professors thought it was a joke. Well all but the one idiot who didn't actually do any research.

      --
      If someone is passing you on the right, you are an asshole for driving in the wrong lane.
    6. Re:Ignorance of the Philosophy of Science by catchblue22 · · Score: 1

      Philosophy of science is a joke. With one exception, all of my physics professors thought it was a joke. Well all but the one idiot who didn't actually do any research.

      You exhibit the "appeal to authority" fallacy, especially since you do not elaborate on what you mean but only refer to you purported professors' views, which you don't elaborate on either.

      And as for physics, I think that in ways it is the most philosophic of all sciences. How can you consider the topsy turvy world of quantum mechanics without a dose of philosophy? To appreciate quantum mechanics you have to realize what it is telling you, what it means, and what its limitations are. Fire a beam of electrons through two closely spaced slits, and they will exhibit an interference pattern which corresponds to wavelike behavior. This seems to happen even if the rate at which electrons is slowed such that only single electrons are passing through the two slits. Measure the slit each electron passes through and the electrons no longer behave like waves, but instead act like bullets. Were the electrons really waves? Or were they merely behaving like waves? What are the electrons? How can our observations change the electrons? Is Schroedinger's equation merely descriptive and predictive, or do we take it literally and accept the existence of Schroedinger's Cat? To truly appreciate these issues you must consider philosophy. You must consider how our theories are mathematical hypotheses that may either be supported or refuted by observation. You must remember, as Kant said that science is not certain, but only inductive, that all our knowledge is merely probable.

      --
      This and no other is the root from which a tyrant springs; when first he appears as a protector - Plato (423 to 327 BC)
    7. Re:Ignorance of the Philosophy of Science by catchblue22 · · Score: 1

      Ask the students why scientists perform experiments. Ask them what the role of an hypothesis is. Ask them about the certainty of scientific theories. Ask them what a scientific theory actually is. Ask them if we know everything. Ask them about the limitations of human knowledge. Ask them why an experiment will never prove an hypothesis. Then you will see what I mean.

      And this won't be "fixed" by giving them yet another series of philosophical facts and definitions to memorize.

      --
      This and no other is the root from which a tyrant springs; when first he appears as a protector - Plato (423 to 327 BC)
    8. Re:Ignorance of the Philosophy of Science by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Philosophy of science is a joke. With one exception, all of my physics professors thought it was a joke. Well all but the one idiot who didn't actually do any research.

      You exhibit the "appeal to authority" fallacy, especially since you do not elaborate on what you mean but only refer to you purported professors' views, which you don't elaborate on either.

      And as for physics, I think that in ways it is the most philosophic of all sciences. How can you consider the topsy turvy world of quantum mechanics without a dose of philosophy? To appreciate quantum mechanics you have to realize what it is telling you, what it means, and what its limitations are. Fire a beam of electrons through two closely spaced slits, and they will exhibit an interference pattern which corresponds to wavelike behavior. This seems to happen even if the rate at which electrons is slowed such that only single electrons are passing through the two slits. Measure the slit each electron passes through and the electrons no longer behave like waves, but instead act like bullets. Were the electrons really waves? Or were they merely behaving like waves? What are the electrons? How can our observations change the electrons? Is Schroedinger's equation merely descriptive and predictive, or do we take it literally and accept the existence of Schroedinger's Cat? To truly appreciate these issues you must consider philosophy. You must consider how our theories are mathematical hypotheses that may either be supported or refuted by observation. You must remember, as Kant said that science is not certain, but only inductive, that all our knowledge is merely probable.

      Philosophy of science is a fallacy, and its all about appeal to authority, X philosopher said this.

      The real world implications of QM are far more interesting that the pseudo intellectual ramifications. Those belong at the edge of physics, cosmology and string theory. At least until our physics around those gets better, then then that noise can go away as well.

  9. Most of the mass of a plant is water. by dweller_below · · Score: 2

    > but still believing that plants obtain most of their mass from the soil rather than from the atmosphere..

    I may be a hick from a cow college, but most of the mass of my plants is water. Water that is sucked up from the soil via a root-system.

    Granted, the atmosphere moves the water around, but the plant gets it's water (and thus most of it's mass) from the soil.

    Miles

    1. Re:Most of the mass of a plant is water. by Ironchew · · Score: 2

      > but still believing that plants obtain most of their mass from the soil rather than from the atmosphere..
      It's the supreme irony of the self-righteous that the strawmen they set up occasionally have valid points.

    2. Re:Most of the mass of a plant is water. by gurps_npc · · Score: 3, Insightful
      You confused current mass with intake/outtake. While most organic life is water, we are talking about intake and out take, not current composition

      The Cycle they mentioned means that plants consume 6 C20 (12 Carbon + 6 Oxygen) for every 5 H20 (10 Hydrogen and 5 Oxygen), every time they photosynthesize.

      This means that while the end plant may be mostly water, they are consuming more of their weight in Carbon dioxide than in water.

      So now you are asking, if the plant is consuming more carbon dioxide than water, what happens to the carbon dioxide, as the water is at least partly kept? The Carbon is kept, while the oxygen is given off. The amount of water that is taken in and kept is relatively small compared to the carbon that is kept PLUS the oxygen that is given off.

      --
      excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
    3. Re:Most of the mass of a plant is water. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In context, it appears they were talking about the carbon-cycle (thus specifically the mass of carbon in the plant).

    4. Re:Most of the mass of a plant is water. by noidentity · · Score: 1

      Exactly, and the farmer applies the water. It's kind of depressing to consider this when looking at how much plant food costs, though I guess compared to bottled water, it's not so bad.

    5. Re:Most of the mass of a plant is water. by Per+Abrahamsen · · Score: 2

      The actual test explicitly specified "(dry biomass, after removing the water)".

      [ Using "mass" as an informal shorthand for dry mass is common in plant science. Wet weight is used to indicate that water is included. ]

    6. Re:Most of the mass of a plant is water. by theskipper · · Score: 1

      Best explanation so far, thanks.

    7. Re:Most of the mass of a plant is water. by dbIII · · Score: 1

      I may be a hick from a cow college

      People shouldn't knock that. The rural University a couple of hours drive away from me developed a robot cow to be used to train dogs in handling livestock. How cool is that?

    8. Re:Most of the mass of a plant is water. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      what the fuck are you talking about, most of the mass of a plant is water that's drawn from the soil.

      shut the fuck up, you had nothing to add, and you're just being an asshole.

    9. Re:Most of the mass of a plant is water. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I do believe that you're mistaken.

      Plants may use more CO2 than H2O for photosynthesis, but vast amounts of water evaporate from the leaves (easily over 100l/day for a large tree). This water is continuously being replaced.

      Incidentally, this process is necessary for the survival of the plant. The sucking of water from the leaves draws nutrients upwards from the roots.

      Plants adapted for very dry conditions have a waxy layer on their leaves, which slows down the evaporation without stopping it.

      I think TFA meant dry mass.

    10. Re:Most of the mass of a plant is water. by oliverthered · · Score: 1

      yeh, water is transient, more like a catalyst.The water will get taken up and then perspired by the plant. So I'm not sure if you can say the water is actually part of the plant mass or the plant has water.

      That's a bit like saying if you have a big lunch then the food is a big part of your mass, or if you put on a lead overcoat that's a big part of your mass.

      You can take the water out of the plant, but it's harder to take the plant out of the water.

      The thing is that people think in different ways, schizoid personality or Asperger's or psychopath for instance.

      Psychopath's reason more via the human connection, emotionally so to speak. Their the politicians who say scientists should know their place, their the ones who control people and the education system. They learn by having things beaten into them, what they are told, via authority.

      I know PHd's who said psychics is easy you just have to remember all the stuff, some how managed to get a PHd, and now apparently write code.
      Their code show a complete inability to think, beyond the 'customer says black = 1'
      case customer
      if 'bills body shop':
                case colour
                  if 'black' : return 1.
      if 'customer number 2'
              case weight
                  if convert.ToInteger('55') return 2.

      Yep that bad, I think I've got a copy of some kicking around if you don't believe.

      and this is a PHd.

      --
      thank God the internet isn't a human right.
  10. Americans, I presume? by rsilvergun · · Score: 2

    makes sense. When I was a kid doing well in school meant you were a nerd & a loser. Other countries don't allow that to happen. But we've got to devalue education so we can slash funding you know.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:Americans, I presume? by Conspiracy_Of_Doves · · Score: 1

      How exactly do they "not allow" it?

    2. Re:Americans, I presume? by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      How exactly do they "not allow" it?

      By encouraging their kids to do well in school and rewarding nerds rather than jocks?

      Treating sports as more important than maths, science, etc, seems to be a very Anglo trait; see the British public schools of the Victorian era, for example, where being good at Rugby was considered far more important than being good at academic subjects.

      As for the grandparent post, the available evidence would seem to indicate that the more you increase spending on schooling in a first world nation, the worse the results become. In many countries 'teaching' is just a cushy job at the taxpayers' expense where you're impossible to sack even if you're the worst teacher ever... at worst you'll probably be sent off to the glorious heights of admin and get a pay rise in the process.

    3. Re:Americans, I presume? by jirka · · Score: 1

      Some countries do better, but the rest of the world is moving towards how the US does it (some are already worse). The US is not the worst in the world in primary education. I can see the trend in Czech when I go back. Under socialism, there was no incentive to water down curriculum. There was a protected group (kids of communist party cronies and friends) and there was a repressed class (those people that didn't agree with the system or happened to be
      born into such families). But if you happened to have parents that didn't piss off the commies (majority of the population), then the system was rather fair to you (within that class of people).

      With capitalism, there is a movement away from "schooling is a right" to "grades are a service to be paid for." If you have rich parents, then the teacher doesn't want them complaining in all the wrong places. So quality of education (on all levels) is slowly declining even there. When colleges start being run primarily from private funds, then those providing the funds might stop unless their kids get the degree. It seems that majority of people do not see the folly with this approach.

    4. Re:Americans, I presume? by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      When colleges start being run primarily from private funds, then those providing the funds might stop unless their kids get the degree. It seems that majority of people do not see the folly with this approach.

      Nope. The problem is the folly of believing that education should be about getting a piece of paper that allows you to get certain jobs you wouldn't get otherwise.

      Which is largely down to the 'professionalisation' of recruitment and the elimination of apprenticeships. A kid who years ago might start out sweeping floors in a hangar and end their career designing a jet airliner is now expected to have a degree before 'Human Resources' will even talk to them.

    5. Re:Americans, I presume? by couchslug · · Score: 0

      "When I was a kid doing well in school meant you were a nerd & a loser."

      When the masses are fucking morons dedicated to making school a Hellmouth for anyone with a brain, of course that deters excellence.

      Instead of focusing on useless programs like how to integrate window-lickers into normal public schools, we should be focusing on nurturing the FEW who are more likely to advance society. Standard education is absurd. Train the drones to be drones, and allow school choice so parents who were responsible to have children they could afford can take their taxes out of the public retard mill and send their offspring to private school.

      Of course, the Bible Thumpers will take advantage, but that's IMO a good thing since they will remove themselves from the system. Free-thinking, modern parents would be enabled to send their kids to superior private schools and produce superior citizens.

      The thugs, trailer trash, and ghetto trash already own the public schools. I was fortunate my folks could afford to send me away from that cesspool of human garbage, and so I advocate economic segregation. In the developed world, you are poor because you suck, and I shouldn't have to associate with you.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    6. Re:Americans, I presume? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How exactly do they "not allow" it?

      Most likely by giving appropriate funding and stricter standards geared towards the education of the students instead of whoever has the best football team that year, fostering a culture of critical thought and proper education, not to mention people running the system with an understanding of the long-term effects of proper education on a country on the whole.

      Or, in other words, ZOMG SOCIALISM HATE HATE FEAR OBAMA FNORD COMMIES AMERICA PATRIOT WE TEH PEOPLE SOCIALISM GUMMERMINT CONTROL HATE SOCIALISM.

    7. Re:Americans, I presume? by Skidborg · · Score: 1

      The stranger thing is that while America elevates sports above science, they still have some of the unhealthiest kids going to school...

      --
      Supporter of the +1 Over Dramatic mod option. In memory of apk.
    8. Re:Americans, I presume? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But also some of the healthiest..

    9. Re:Americans, I presume? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course, the Bible Thumpers will take advantage, but that's IMO a good thing since they will remove themselves from the system. Free-thinking, modern parents would be enabled to send their kids to superior private schools and produce superior citizens.

      Um, no. Since "God did it" is easier to "understand", any advantage-taking by Bible Thumpers would lead to them outright taking over the education system by sheer numbers alone. The free-thinking, modern parents would be ostracized by the society that would be formed by a glut of morons who can get by specifically being morons.

      Or in other words, you are attempting to downplay the power Bible Thumpers have over idiots, which a history of holy wars and theistic terrorism has proven to be a serious, grave mistake.

    10. Re:Americans, I presume? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Standard education is absurd. Train the drones to be drones, and allow school choice so parents who were responsible to have children they could afford can take their taxes out of the public retard mill and send their offspring to private school.

      Yet if you ask any parent whether his child is one of the drone or one of the bright stars who deserves a superior school, every single parent will tell you his child is among the brightest in his class. Even if his intelligence and creativity are not always reflected well in test scores.

    11. Re:Americans, I presume? by Skidborg · · Score: 1

      Any nation will have a few on the extremes. The national average is what matters though.

      --
      Supporter of the +1 Over Dramatic mod option. In memory of apk.
    12. Re:Americans, I presume? by couchslug · · Score: 1

      "The free-thinking, modern parents would be ostracized by the society that would be formed by a glut of morons who can get by specifically being morons"

      They will be anyway, which is why economic SEGREGATION is a good idea. I went to a secular boarding school and advocate that choice for others.

      The way to avoid the Hellmouth is to buy your way out and seek a separate lifestyle. The US is a large place, and choice vouchers would help anyone with initiative to help their offspring move in different circles.

      Poor people suck, religious people suck, and the way to avoid being fucked with by them is to grow up in a superior environment _isolated from_ them.

      We can't fix society or the beasts in it, but we can work an alternate lifestyle track to avoid getting fucked over. The way to beat the enemy is to be more educated. Let them be stupid. They lick that shit up, they crave it, so give it to them.

      I am beginning to understand WHY the folks who sold mortgage-backed securities felt no compunction about doing so and why elites run roughshod over the naive. It's because their victims deserve their contempt, deserve to be used, deserved to have their jobs outsourced and their shit factory towns shut down.

      A track for those who deserve better can be cut by exploiting situations the beasts like. They can have their madrassas, while others can opt to use THE SAME enabling legislation to school elsewhere. Many Slashdotters want to change the way the public schools do business. That's a mistake and not affordable or politically tenable. Instead, do what the enemy does and seek private or home schooling in order to raise more competitive offspring.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
  11. They lack general literacy by alvinrod · · Score: 5, Interesting

    It's not just scientific literacy, it's mathematical and grammatical as well. It's not that American kids are getting dumber, it's that American colleges are accepting anyone to a four year program if they sign up for one. The downside of that is that the average ability of incoming students trends downward.

    The problem is that we've created a system that values a piece of paper that says you were in college for four years, even if those four years have absolutely nothing to do with the job position. There's nothing wrong with going to trade school, and in more than just a few trades you'll end up laughing all the way to the bank, making more money with your two year degree than a lot of people with a four year degree, all while paying a lot less for it.

    Even many four year programs could be significantly shortened. A cousin of mine received a business degree from a program that crammed it all into one year. His job was school, his off-time was school, and they expected him to be there everyday in appropriate dress. They didn't fuck around and neither did he, and know he's out and being productive while a bunch of other kids are pissing away four years on classes they don't care about and keg parties.

    1. Re:They lack general literacy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not just scientific literacy, it's mathematical and grammatical as well.

        They didn't fuck around and neither did he, and know he's out and being productive while a bunch of other kids are pissing away four years on classes they don't care about and keg parties.

      Oh the irony.

    2. Re:They lack general literacy by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      it's that American colleges are accepting anyone to a four year program if they sign up for one

      - yes, and the reason for this is that gov't got into business of handing out student loans, which on one hand allows more people to go to colleges (ok, good) on the other hand it gives colleges an excellent way to make more money through raising tuition fees immediately, after any gov't loan increase (bad) and at the same time the expected level of education out of any student is supposedly higher every year, but this only leads to handing out of more gov't loans and in a vicious cycle to tuition fee hikes but also to artificial inflation in education levels.

      Yes, gov't does not only print money and inflate your currency and steals your purchasing power while destroying the future of the country by destroying savings and capital required to make country productive through being a producer of consumer goods, it also inflates education and forces people to get into more and more loans to get this higher levels of education they don't need.

    3. Re:They lack general literacy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OMG!!! A typo in someone's post commenting on poor grammar skills. Alert Alanis Morissette!

    4. Re:They lack general literacy by FrootLoops · · Score: 1

      To a lot of people, college has become a way to stave off real life for four more years. As life expectancies have risen in the last century, people are having families later and working longer. It makes some sense we would also want to "grow up" more slowly.

      College has been turning into the new high school for years. I think there will always be a place for top tier 4-year residential colleges, but the number of people in 4-year programs who could better spend their time elsewhere is high. Trade schools and "alternatives" to the traditional residential college are becoming more and more popular, so there's already some backlash reflecting the inefficiency of the current system. Why does a secretary need to know the major sources of plant mass, or the constellations visible from the southern hemisphere in winter, or calculus? Certainly some people innovate and could make use of such knowledge, but (and maybe I'm too cynical) most people just plod through life doing what they need to, solving problems a million other people have solved a million times before. They need only domain-specific knowledge and for the most part couldn't care less about anything else anyway. We may as well let a few percent of people change the world with new ideas and let everyone else simply be productive in a trained monkey sort of way--it seems like that's what everyone wants, anyway.

    5. Re:They lack general literacy by fishbowl · · Score: 1

      If only there was an alternative 4-year-long orgy that people could do instead of having to go to college!

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
    6. Re:They lack general literacy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've searched and searched and never found drugs and sex as good as what I had in college. I also met some really smart people and learned a lot about science and math and engineering and philosophy and history, and took some classes too. The classes and degree, well, meh, but the other stuff was well worth the four years and thousands of dollars.

    7. Re:They lack general literacy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To a lot of people, college has become a way to stave off real life for four more years.

      I made the unfortunate mistake of starting college as a physics major, without doing enough research into the department or the school. After a few months it was immediately obvious that a physics degree from this place would never translate into a real job. A couple of years after I left, they apparently added a master's program. Two years later, they added a PhD. I imagine at some point, unless the student loan market collapses, they will come up with a new degree to add on so students can keep deferring debt indefinitely.

    8. Re:They lack general literacy by sourcerror · · Score: 2

      Where I live vocational work will get you minimal wage ($400 a month; I have two masons in the family), and all foreign companies require Bsc. That's Hungary, Eastern-Europe. And tuition is free. (for 9 semesters for a Bsc degree; going to masters you get 4 additional free semesters)

  12. Hey I know These Guys! by stewbacca · · Score: 1

    "[they] rely on mainly informal reasoning derived from their personal experiences,

    I hang around this lot!

    http://www.slashdot.org/

    1. Re:Hey I know These Guys! by FrootLoops · · Score: 1

      I intensely disliked my college bio course, in part because their reasoning was way too informal. The descriptions of cellular processes (protein synthesis comes to mind) didn't involve any of the nuclear physics I needed to really understand the material. They used analogies intended to simplify the truth into something memorizable instead of derivable.

      I distinctly remember Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium getting taught as a gift from the gods. Come test time I couldn't for the life of me remember the assumptions that went into it. I just now looked them up and the assumptions are completely random, independent breeding, equal allele frequencies in both sexes, and that steady state has occurred. None of these is terribly complicated by itself, but they weren't emphasized at all. The formulae P(AA) = p^2, P(Aa) = 2pq, and P(aa) = q^2 were emphasized, which was all I needed for the homework, but I couldn't remember them or their assumptions come test time.

      To be honest, that class was poor in other ways, which biased me against it all the more. It was badly organized and went from topic to topic almost randomly. Lecture attendance plummeted by the end of the semester, and a shocking number of those who did attend fell asleep (it was an early class). For all my dislike, I still feel sorry for the lecturers. I think ultimately, the class just wasn't interested in what they had to say and would have greatly preferred an extra hour in bed.

      Incidentally we were never taught the carbon cycle. TFA seems to actually be referring to ecology instead of biology, though they overlap.

    2. Re:Hey I know These Guys! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is the only insightful comment I've seen on this thread.

  13. This just in... by DCheesi · · Score: 1

    News Flash! Students in conventional schools often memorize facts without truly understanding them!!!!111!

    Film at eleven...

  14. grade inflation by jirka · · Score: 1

    I would partly blame grade inflation. Nowdays it is possible to pass all your classes without doing much work at all. Given that certain counties (according to the census) have nearly universal college attendance (95% in orange county in CA if I remember correctly) means that college curriculum must be brought to a level such that only the dumbest 5% of the population cannot obtain a degree (unless you make a convincing argument that being born in a richer county automatically adds braincells).

    Point is, that the half that didn't get it wasn't supposed to get further. This isn't going to fly if current political climate all over the western world treats college education as a service to be provided for a fee.

    1. Re:grade inflation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Last I checked colleges don't give out 4.5s or 5.5s unlike high schools where AP classes and weak 101 college level classes are boost GPAs to crazy levels. This is grade inflation.

      The highest grade anyone can get in a college is an A. Not an A+ or an A++. I can only get a 4.0. In math classes I either get got the problem right or wrong. In literature classes there are degrees of gray when it comes to papers, but if you can argue a point and drive it home, then you earned whatever percentage you can get for that paper.

      There is no such thing as grade inflation at the university level. Only administrators trying to raise a perceived level of prestige. I prefer to call it prestige raising because that is exactly what the hell it is.

      When financial aid and other various scholarships require certain GPAs to remain eligible, students will do whatever it takes to get the grade.

      By forcing professors to fail a certain percentage or grade lower than what the professor believed the student earned only hurts the people who are paying the bills for your institution.

      IF a college is passing kids to pass them, then the prestige of that piece of paper is low. If a college requires kids to do actually do the work by earning the grade then the prestige goes up.

      The problem you're describing is what you get at "lesser" universities.

      When I audit certain state schools here in my state, I see that quality of senior research papers drop compared to that of schools that don't admit 85% of their freshmen class.

      Contrary to popular belief, a degree from one institution can be worth less than a degree from one where kids actually fail and have to do the work.

      Sadly most jobs these days don't require the type of work that our universities make them do. College degrees are about seeking truth, learning how to critically think, and break down a problem. If businesses don't like that then they can hire kids directly out of the "northwest whatever business and technical institute".

      IAACA - I am a college administrator. Anonymous for obvious reason.

  15. Trade Schools can't accept this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    TFA notes that some carpenter can't find workers who know basic arithmetic to cut up the wood. So, even trade schools couldn't accept this low a math skills level.

    1. Re:Trade Schools can't accept this by TheCarp · · Score: 1

      I have a friend who was a Carpenter (technically still is...and despite my name, no, I am not) that has been out on disability since an unfortunate accident with a saw transformed the shape of his hand into something rather resembling a small uncooked steak. (its mostly back together and mostly working now, but not enough for him to be)

      Anyway, he is now taking classes to get an associates degree and go into construction management. He asked me to come help him with his trig since he missed a number of classes due to a back surgery (I swear, some people just fall apart early... the guy is only 35!)

      Let me tell you... I was unimpressed to the point that I am not sure I feel comfortable naming the school because I wouldn't want to get it wrong and malign the wrong institution. I mean, he was, understandably having difficulties, after missing many classes and being a 35 year old back in school for the first time since he got his GED @21.

      The work though? It was a take home final exam, so, not being someone who likes to outright cheat, I tried my best to just review concepts as needed and get him to "find the answer". However, the test he turned in... I mean, I helped him all I could without violating my own sense of cheating him out of learning it.. and eventually called it a night since I had to work the next day....

      When I left, I was thinking about it, and... if I turned in the same answers that he was, ona test in High School, I would have lost so many points it would have been failing grade. Seriously, he gave answers in decimal numbers, worked with decimal approximations rather than worked symbolically in radians with units of pi, etc.

      Well... I was floored when I heard that he actually passed the course with like a B. I mean, there is only so much I can teach in 1 night, but.... they had him for a whole course... towards a degree... and THAT was the level of work that they would pass? No faith in that school.

      -Steve

      --
      "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
  16. Science or Study? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is biology a science, or is it merely a study?

  17. Why bother? by MacGyver2210 · · Score: 2

    Biology?

    We'll all be computers in robot bodies in the next 100 years anyway.

    --
    If the only way you can accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding that it can't be taken on its own merits
    1. Re:Why bother? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Biology?

      We'll all be computers in robot bodies in the next 100 years anyway.

      I sure hope so!

    2. Re:Why bother? by dbIII · · Score: 1

      I sure hope so!

      Virgin!

  18. Re:You fail. by FrootLoops · · Score: 2

    That's unhelpful. Even if you're right, you didn't say why, and you implied the GP is stupid. They gave their reasoning, which you didn't bother to refute. (It just annoys me when people debate poorly.)

  19. I blame the 'exam' system myself. by Haedrian · · Score: 2

    I think the problem is that exams, which determine whether you pass or not - is the only point for studying that subject.

    I used to love science when I was younger, and I used to ask a ton of questions during class, some of which returned the answer "Because that's how it is" or "That's not in the sillabus"

    The idea that we're implanting into people's heads is "You study You get a good mark in the exam". The exam will ask you to regurgitate the knowledge that you know back on the paper - and don't bother reasoning it or thinking it out.

    At higher levels, then science or whatever does touch into 'you have to think', but for the first few years, the idea implanted into your head is that the exam is the most important thing, and it is a test of memory. Not logic. That's where it fails.

    1. Re:I blame the 'exam' system myself. by asnelt · · Score: 1

      At higher levels, then science or whatever does touch into 'you have to think', but for the first few years, the idea implanted into your head is that the exam is the most important thing, and it is a test of memory. Not logic. That's where it fails.

      That depends on the exam. Exams are not a bad thing. You just have to design the exams such that logic and reasoning are tested as well.

    2. Re:I blame the 'exam' system myself. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I used to love science when I was younger, and I used to ask a ton of questions during class, some of which returned the answer "Because that's how it is" or "That's not in the sillabus"

      http://www.xkcd.com/803/

    3. Re:I blame the 'exam' system myself. by rodarson2k · · Score: 1

      You can just ignore the rote memorization path, and use logic and reasoning on the exams.

      You're hobbling yourself relative to those who take the easy route, with respect to grades, but you're given the opportunity to say you outscored your classmates despite hobbling yourself, and with a few exceptions (most notably freshman biology), you WILL outscore most of your classmates.

    4. Re:I blame the 'exam' system myself. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think the problem is that exams, which determine whether you pass or not - is the only point for studying that subject.

      I used to love science when I was younger, and I used to ask a ton of questions during class, some of which returned the answer "Because that's how it is" or "That's not in the sillabus"

      The idea that we're implanting into people's heads is "You study You get a good mark in the exam". The exam will ask you to regurgitate the knowledge that you know back on the paper - and don't bother reasoning it or thinking it out.

      At higher levels, then science or whatever does touch into 'you have to think', but for the first few years, the idea implanted into your head is that the exam is the most important thing, and it is a test of memory. Not logic. That's where it fails.

      I have taken many exams where I used logic, not memory. Even history tests, logic can help eliminate uncertainties or mix-ups in what you recall from earlier learning.

      Perhaps that's because as a rule I don't exhaustively study or memorize for tests. Yes sometimes that means I don't get an A or 100, but in general cognitive thinking, intelligence, and logic will serve you better than memorization on any test, even standardized ones.

      I never studied for the SAT and got a 1550 (old version, 2 sections) on the first try since taking it in 7th grade. That's the king of standardized tests. How can it rely on memorization then?

    5. Re:I blame the 'exam' system myself. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe the teacher didn't have all the answers or maybe there was nothing more to it and it _was_ just "how it is", maybe you just asked stupid and redundant questions. Everybody loves to tell how they were the misunderstood genius. We don't have time for you, there are other student too.

  20. Um, duh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Early on you learn to learn just what you need to in order to pass a class, nothing more if you have no interest in the class.
    Tests, quizzes, the purpose they serve is to test your knowledge and understanding, but ironically they undermine this very effort.

  21. Re:You fail. by Animats · · Score: 1

    It gets 99% of it's mass from the AIR. It's pretty basic.

    Actually, trees are about 50% water. The rest is mostly cellulose (C6H10O5). The carbon comes from the air; the hydrogen and some of the oxygen come from water. 6CO2 + 6H2O -> C6H12O6 + 6O2.

    This was covered in 7th grade when I was in school.

  22. Researchers Not so Hot Either by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 1

    ent sample diagnostic questions administered to students at 13 US universities that illustrate "informal," "mixed," and "principle-
    based scientific" reasoning by students. The correct answer is bold.

    Question 1 asks students to reason about conservation of matter and energy at the ecosystem scale: A tropical rainforest is an example of an ecosystem.
    Which of the following statements about matter and energy in a tropical rainforest is the most accurate?
    Please choose ONE answer that you think is best.
    Please explain why you think that the answer you chose is better than the others.

    (A) Energy is recycled, but matter is not recycled.
    (B) Matter is recycled, but energy is not recycled.
    (C) Both matter and energy are recycled.
    (D) Neither matter nor energy are recycled.

    I think that most plant eating organisms would be inclined to pick (C).

    --
    May the Maths Be with you!
    1. Re:Researchers Not so Hot Either by The_mad_linguist · · Score: 1

      Consider the three diagrams. They represent three situations in which 100 kg of green plants serve as the original source of food for each of the food chains.
      In situation II, for example, cattle eat 100 kg of green plants and then people eat the beef that is produced by the cattle as a result of having eaten the plants.
      In which of the three situations is the most energy available to people?
      (A) I (shows food chain with green plants, insects, fish, people)
      (B) II (shows food chain with green plants, cattle, people)
      (C) III (shows food chain with green plants and people)
      (D) Situations I and II will roughly tie for the most energy.
      (E) The same amount of energy will be available to people in all three situations.

      I, personally, am unable to eat grass. So the amount of energy available to me in situation C could very well be zero (or slightly negative, if I were fool enough to try to eat and digest it).

      Now, it's possible that the "sample questions" they give are of a lower quality than the ones they actually used. But I don't see any particular evidence for that.

    2. Re:Researchers Not so Hot Either by benjamindees · · Score: 1

      Trickling-down is not the same as recycling.

      --
      "I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"
  23. Experimentation? by Troll-Under-D'Bridge · · Score: 1

    As a result, students may leave an introductory biology course with the ability to recite the reactions in the Calvin cycle but still believing that plants obtain most of their mass from the soil rather than from the atmosphere [...]

    I've known this since (at least) high school as it had been a childhood hobby of mine to sink seeds into jars of water after I read about the wonderful concept known as "hydroponics". So, yes, I've used "informal" reasoning to come to the conclusion that plants get much of their mass from the atmosphere. This worked in my case because I happened to have done informal "experiments" on the subject.

    While I doubt whether one can experience high science concepts like quantum mechanics or Einstein's theories of relativity, cultivating a DIY, or should I say, TIY (try-it-yourself) attitude may help students understand better the principles behind scientific discoveries. Simply reading about the nuts and bolts won't do. Get out the screw driver. A good course would force the student to do experiments, perhaps not to make research-quality discoveries but merely to demonstrate to themselves why something is so. In an age where knowledge is a Google search or a Wikipedia article away, there's no still substitute for hands-on work.

  24. Some of the questions aren't that easy by bigsexyjoe · · Score: 1

    Looking at the test, possible mistakes a student can make include believing that glucose can be converted into ATP. (To avoid making this mistake you have to understand that ATP contains phosphorous.) Also, you have to know that most of a plant's mass comes from CO2 it takes in, not things it absorbs in the soil, which is also tricky because most people know that gas doesn't weight very much. Another question is "An animal inhales O2 and exhales CO2, what happens to its mass?" The correct answer is that it loses mass, but you really have to be paying attention to realize that.

  25. Re:You fail. by M8e · · Score: 1

    It gets 99% of it's dry mass from the AIR. It's pretty basic.

    [appropriate acronym]

  26. Re:Ewe by TaoPhoenix · · Score: 1

    Ewe get a green line for the right word in the wrong pasture.

    --
    My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
  27. Re:Under by TaoPhoenix · · Score: 1

    You could form the Trolls Under the Bridge College!

    --
    My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
  28. Re:Talking by TaoPhoenix · · Score: 1

    (Wrestling)
      Big words there.
      I have a Teal Deer for ya!
      Can you smell ... what the Right ... is Cooking!?
    (/Wrestling)

    --
    My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
  29. DagNabIt another human flaw.... by OldHawk777 · · Score: 1

    "Students are understandably occupied with memorizing details of processes without focusing on the principles that govern and connect the processes."

    I have noticed that the less science/music, math/art, and language based a student's field of study, the greater their scope of unknown.

    Regurgitation of information sustains simple and safe dogmatic thinking that fills in the gross-gaps in understanding factual-reality. Business, clergy, politics, athletics majors will react fast with plausible pseudo-reasons (guesses) and respond poorly.

    Yes! There are some business, clergy leaders that can respond well to the anomalous, atypical, and asymmetric reality, but most are witless reactionaries in unusual or stressful situations. Hence, most are born followers always seeking to be the leader. The leaders of religion, industry, politics reminds me of primitive specialized species living in a controlled environment.

    We should all be concerned, because we are allowing/following their controlled environment survival methods, which do determine the flexibility of our reality and ability to introduce positive and evolutionary change.

    --
    Unaccountable leaders are masters, and unrepresented people are slaves. How do US and EU fare?
  30. People use natural ideas, however looney by fatmar · · Score: 2

    Harvard Physics discovered this exact problem in the 1960s and hence started all the misconception work by Hestenes, et al. and that work's spread to just about everything (except computer science). The TOLT (Tobin and Capie, 1981) test is readily available for physics and similar ones for each discipline --- enjoy: try it on your kids, spouse and others.

    --
    D. E. (Steve) Stevenson, Ph.D. Emeritus Associate Professor,School of Computing,Clemson University.
  31. good luck with that by Goldsmith · · Score: 1

    The way things are going now, the scientific culture of biology ("shotgun" testing and details over derivation) is making inroads into the rest of science and engineering, not the other way around. Even in something like as computational physics, some (not most) students will not understand the physics they're trying to test, focusing only on making more, faster, higher density models rather than correct or improved models. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with a "shotgun" approach research, but I think it needs to be balanced with research focused on fundamental understanding.

    The reason for this is that there are more research biologists than the number of research scientists in all other fields put together. Biology so dominates the science landscape that working in another (even major) field often feels like a "niche" position.

  32. biomass from CO2 vs soil question by bloosqr · · Score: 1

    There are a slew of comments pointing out the correct answer to the biomass question should be water. However this is due to the fact that the slashdot summary is phrased incorrectly. The answer to the slashdot summary is of course water due to the high relative mass contribution of water compared to non water in plants/animals. However the actual question is phrased as follows:

    5. a mature maple tree can have a mass of 1 ton or more (dry biomass, after removing the water), yet it starts from a seed that weighs less than 1 gram.

    Which of the following processes contributes the most to this huge increase in biomass? circle the correct answer.

    (A) absorption of mineral substances from the soil via the roots
    (B) absorption of organic substances from the soil via the roots
    (C) incorporation of CO2 gas from the atmosphere into molecules by green leaves
    (D) incorporation of H2o from the soil into molecules by green leaves
    (E) absorption of solar radiation into the leaf

    Clearly the correct answer to this question is (C). (Only 29% of students got this answer correct).

    1. Re:biomass from CO2 vs soil question by atrizzah · · Score: 1

      I must admit, I know very little about that sort of biology, but you would think (hope) that the average would realize that if a tree did grow by absorbing 1 ton of mineral/organic material from the soil that the result would be a big-assed hole in the ground around the tree, so by basic experience, neither of those could be the right answer

  33. blame teachers? again? top 10: by bussdriver · · Score: 1

    10) students today are not like students in the past; but blame the teachers anyhow its all their fault. My father had a shooting range in his high school and a gun in his locker. Some kids also got a needed SMACK without a lawsuit or child protection getting involved. Some foreign systems don't care if your brat fail and go to a non-college track so the kid has some responsibility.

    9) parents today are not like parents of the past (both likely work; among other issues) but blame the teachers anyhow its all their fault.

    8) The culture today is not like it was in the past; but blame the teachers anyhow its all their fault.

    7) Statistical measurements being the sole measure of educational success is a NEW obsession of modern times; forget how we got to the moon and the major accomplishments unparallelled by the recent generations without anything like the "accountability" system we have today.

    6) Education is NOT business and can not effectively be run as one; this is another cultural shift.

    5) Teachers are not shrinks. The fucked up student needs professional help as well as involved parents; oh, those mental behavior drugs seem to be connected with the school shootings... can't wait to hear what the long term impact is on a developing brain.... but don't let your 6 year old watch 3D movies...it'll mess up their vision.... but give your teen drugs to make them act less like caffeinated children.

    4) A few generations of teaching patterns continue onward today simply because teachers are influenced by their education and the college system promotes a certain methodology as well -- both do not adapt that well and when it goes downward it takes many years before it can be noticed and a huge movement can alter the course which then takes many years to spread. The college system is poorly suited at creating teachers in my non-expert opinion (although my whole family are educators and I'm just a college instructor - which requires no education training) while a long term internship like apprenticeship system would work much better; although it would promote keeping old patterns (although human learning doesn't change so once you get decent at it...) I know that here we make teachers intern a short while with some reviewing involved. But I also know we review active old teachers and critique them by a system that is top heavy with management that lacks teaching talent or even experience! Nothing is more useless than 10 management disrupting class and then giving advice based upon that observation and their own opinions.

    3) Not everbody can teach; some can learn - but they NEED to learn how. Old near-retired workers can sometimes be good mentors but I bet they'd make horrible teachers to uninterested inexperienced short attention span students. Somebody good for industry can be poor for education; same thing the other way! Sure, the lack of educators especially when their job is HARDER, lower paying, and has more deaths than the police does lower the bar so people who are poor in industry go into teaching-- but some people change careers because they "suck" when they may excel at teaching that topic and just never thought about teaching it... because after all, the only possible measure of your skill is if you can make money at it RIGHT??? (sarcasm- see Vincent van Gogh)
    Oh, do any of you find yourself spouting off about education because you were a student?? I bet you don't feel fit to tell a dentist how to fix your teeth simply because you've been to the dentist for years. Some of these people ARE professionals...

    2) Textbooks, paper pushing, standardized tests and a newly devised national standardized testing system dictate WHAT, WHEN, and to some degree HOW things are tested and leaves little room for more effective techniques, ordering, etc. A super teacher (and I've had 1) may not function within an arbitrary scheme devised by politicians and their appointments - in fact, my super teacher was given ALL the troubled students who'd turn them all around but under the c

    1. Re:blame teachers? again? top 10: by I8TheWorm · · Score: 1

      I think you read way too much into the comment. I didn't say anything about the current state of affairs in schools on the whole. Rather, I was speaking about math and science specifically.

      I have three educators in my family, and my opinion is based partly on theirs. They've seen exactly what I'm talking about firsthand.... one of them was actually the non mathematically inclined new teacher who was thrown into the classroom, and whom I base my opinion on.

      --
      Saying Android is a family of phones is akin to saying Linux is a family of PCs.
  34. This post is pointless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Kinda like Japanese. You can write any thing in the spoken language with the few Kana characters, but the dirty nips fuck that up with the damn kanji. Thousands of those (well, hundreds) just to read a decently advanced book.

  35. Time to rethink the College system in the usa by Joe+The+Dragon · · Score: 1

    Time to rethink the College system in the usa.

    The high cost is just part of whats messed up hear.

    We are pushing to many people in 4 year or more Colleges.

    People who tech and community Colleges get pass over by people who went to a College more well known for the Sports teams. In some colleges players on the sports teams get easy classes / more of pass or brake on there school work.

    There are to much filler and forced credit hours why should a MBA have to take biology or why should some in a tech / cs / it have to take art history?

    We need more apprentices even more so in the tech areas as the way the book say to do things is not the same real work place.

    We need to take the good parts from the apprentice system, tech and community Colleges and the older 4 year system as well lowering the cost and not just makeing people have a piece of paper to get jobs.
    Now some it certification are ok but others are to easy to just learn to take the test and have no idea to any real work or others have questions / setup that you are not used that much in the work place or are why would want to have things setup like that. Some MS test seem be set in world where software seems to free or cost is not a factor in the setup that is in the question.

    1. Re:Time to rethink the College system in the usa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good god, clearly we also need more work on spelling and grammar.

    2. Re:Time to rethink the College system in the usa by bhiestand · · Score: 1

      Hey, we're still the leading exporter of incoherent rants! USA! USA!

      --
      SWM seeks new sig for a brief fling
  36. Biomass misconception by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Regarding this quote: "As a result, students may leave an introductory biology course with the ability to recite the reactions in the Calvin cycle but still believing that plants obtain most of their mass from the soil rather than from the atmosphere, that plants photosynthesize but do not respire, or that the mass of a decomposing organism will primarily return to the soil."

    I believe that the main reason for the misunderstanding is the confusion between mass and biomass. The plant's water makes up the majority of its mass, but the plants carbon (from its cellulose etc) content makes up the majority of its biomass.

    Of course to understand the word "biomass", its definition must be initially memorised.

    (my bad if a similar comment has already been made)

  37. RTFA by BetterSense · · Score: 1

    6. A mature maple tree can have a mass of 1 ton or more (dry biomass, after
    removing the water), yet it starts from a seed that weighs less than 1 gram. Which
    of the following processes contributes the most to this huge increase in biomass?
    Circle the correct answer.
    (A) absorption of mineral substances from the soil via the roots
    (B) absorption of organic substances from the soil via the roots
    (C) incorporation of CO2 gas from the atmosphere into molecules by green leaves
    (D) incorporation of H2O from the soil into molecules by green leaves
    (E) absorption of solar radiation into the leaf

    Key phrase: "dry biomass, after removing the water"

  38. Simple answer to such utter bullshit by dbIII · · Score: 1

    Feynman taught.
    Are you better than him?

  39. Why by RewriteQuran · · Score: 0

    Schools denounce students asking 'why'.

    --
    Govt must constitute a panel to rewrite US Constitution and Quran
  40. Understanding vs information by jandersen · · Score: 1

    As a result, students may leave an introductory biology course with the ability to recite the reactions in the Calvin cycle but still believing that plants obtain most of their mass from the soil rather than from the atmosphere, that plants photosynthesize but do not respire, or that the mass of a decomposing organism will primarily return to the soil.

    The main point of this article is that biology students do not learn science: scientific method and scientific thinking. Ironically, this quote is a good example: it lists a number of items of information as if that was it was all about. It isn't.

    Biologists are supposed to be scientists. The single defining characteristic of a scientists is that they understand and apply scientific method - everything else is secondary to that. And the reason that this is so, is that the scientific method is the only reasonably reliable tool we have that can reliable identify what is not true. This, incidentally, seems to be one of the most mistunderstood parts of science: that it is not so much about finding the truth, as it is about identifying the falsehoods.

  41. Misogyny Leads to Good Teachers by minstrelmike · · Score: 1

    I read an interesting opinion that teaching was better in the 50s and 60s in America because of the limited job opportunities for women, thus the smartest women went into teaching (in a general statistical sense). As women were accepted into the workplace, the intelligence and energy level of teachers as a whole went down because the best and brightest women were siphoned off into other jobs.

    For best teaching results, we ought to make teaching one of the most respected (highest-paid) professions like Finland does.

  42. Most people don't want to be scientists. by master_p · · Score: 1

    Most people don't want to be scientists. They want a good paying job so as that they can enjoy a comfortable and not-too-stressful life.

    Personally, I think it's natural, and I also think it's good, because not everyone can be a scientist.

  43. First declension, not fourth, for fuck's sake. by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

    It occurs to me that all the professional development, additional college credits in education, testing, more testing, and testing again, ad nauseum is more about the government and administration covering its own collective ass

    I think we need more testing, especially in Latin.

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  44. It's our own fault by danielpauldavis · · Score: 0

    Much of the reason why college students do not understand the scientific method is that they are not taught it in high school. Instead, they are given evolution's "just-so" stories which cannot be proven by the scientific method. Rather than risk the nascent students finding out that the dominant model might have flaws, they leave the "lessons" at indoctrination and shove them out the door. Can't blame this one on the creationists!

    --
    Cranky educator.
  45. As an academic biologist by mofolotopo · · Score: 1

    Let me just say "yuuuuup". The way biology is taught in undergrad curricula is absolutely insane, and as a result a majority of the students coming out of undergrad biology programs know a lot of facts but have very little understanding of what science is or what it does. A kid with a great memory and awful critical reasoning skills will have a much easier time getting through school than a kid who has a bad memory but can actually think. I try my best to foster critical thinking and investigation in classes I teach, but the whole curriculum desperately needs to be reformed.