Carmack Says NGP Is a 'Generation Beyond' Smartphones

Which means... by bhunachchicken · 2011-01-28 00:32 · Score: 3, Insightful

"Carmack Says NGP Is a 'Generation Beyond' Smartphones"

Which means it probably has a price to match. Sadly.

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Re:Which means... by sznupi · 2011-01-28 00:39 · Score: 1, Informative

Not to worry - only for less than a year (if even that)

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Re:Which means... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-01-28 00:51 · Score: 1

Which means it probably has a price to match.
And considering it's from Sony a policy to make it as unattractive as possible :D
Re:Which means... by ObsessiveMathsFreak · 2011-01-28 01:28 · Score: 1

Someone clearly hasn't bought a smartphone.

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May the Maths Be with you!
Re:Which means... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-01-28 01:48 · Score: 0

You must be thinking about "price with 2-year contract renewal" rather than MSRP.
Re:Which means... by SimonTheSoundMan · 2011-01-28 01:59 · Score: 2

I think the closest match to this device now would be the iPod Touch in terms of pricing the NGP. You pay more for a phone just just because it is a phone. A 32 GB iPhone 4 is £612, the iPod Touch is £254. The other components in the iPhone (IPS screen, 3G radio and camera) do not add up enough to charge the extra £358, they charge more for a phone because it what the market will pay for the product. I don't think the market would pay £600 for the NGP.
The NGP may be generations ahead of smartphones now, but the current PSP hardware was released in 2004, 7 years ago. Smartphones will catchup in 2 years or so, do not forget that the NGP is just under 1 year away from being launched so smartphones will be closing in on specs.
Sony may start the NGP selling at a loss, with costs going down through the years, finally making a profit on each sale. Who knows, it could be £250-300 at launch. PSP launched at £179, with inflation and costs of materials increasing and exchange rates, £250 is a reasonable comparison to the PSP and NGP.
Re:Which means... by Lumpy · 2011-01-28 02:20 · Score: 3, Interesting

Smart-phones will catch up in 6 months after it is released. Some of the things coming down the line from HTC will make it look like a outdated toy.

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Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Re:Which means... by bluefoxlucid · 2011-01-28 02:26 · Score: 1

Yes, pretty much. It's like slashdot's next generation interface: Completely bat-fuck broken (seriously, it doesn't work; I can't follow the "replies to your comments" links, they takes me to unrelated comments under the same article), but in 3 months they'll release a new, working version. Sony will release a 6 core handheld, and in 3 months phones will release a 3 core handheld but the cores will be ARMv12, twice the clock, and have dedicated coprocessors for graphics and physics that outperform Sony's.

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Re:Which means... by Joce640k · 2011-01-28 02:45 · Score: 1

Yep. The major problem of consoles is that they stay static for ten years while everybody else follows Moore's law. By next Xmas smartphones will have caught up and the year after that this will just be 'meh' in terms of computing power.
PS: Yes... staying static has the advantage that developers have exact specs to develop/optimize for.

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Re:Which means... by Daniel+Phillips · 2011-01-28 02:46 · Score: 1

Could be eight generations beyond, if you buy it Sony will make you regret it. Based on my PS3 experience.

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Re:Which means... by Guspaz · 2011-01-28 03:22 · Score: 2

Unlikely. Sony essentially took current smartphone tech and scaled it up. Smartphones are starting to ship with dual-core Cortex A9 processors, Sony threw in a quad-core. Smartphones are starting to ship with single-core PowerVR SGX540s, Sony through in four of 'em.
The reason you won't see this in 6 months from smartphone vendors is because Sony has a bigger power budget; the PSP doesn't have to be as small and light as a smartphone, so they can afford to burn a lot less power. The NGP probably draws three times more power than a typical smartphone, and 6 months isn't enough time to counterbalance that.
18 months, maybe, that's enough for Moore's law to take effect, but since dual-core Cortex A9 smartphones *just* hit the market, 6 months is silly.
Re:Which means... by peragrin · 2011-01-28 03:23 · Score: 1

Except slashdot hasbeen at it for 3 years and every new version is slower and runs worse than the previous version. I dontknow about any one else but it is almost unusable on my phone now. Comments take 10-30 seconds to load, articles disappear. The side bar randomly vanishes and the icons no longer scale.
Sony is at least doing something useful with that power. Slashdot seems to need a quadcore phone LTE to load easily.

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Re:Which means... by GooberToo · 2011-01-28 03:23 · Score: 2

Not to worry - only for less than a year (if even that)
Likely a lot less. These Android hardware specs were announced several months ago for up coming models. They are clearly running in parallel time tables. By the time the NGP is available, competing hardware with equal or superior specs will already be out for Android.
Only Apple is likely to be caught behind by this, but likely only one generational cycle at worst. So in the grand scheme, this is a complete non-news story.
Re:Which means... by SimonTheSoundMan · 2011-01-28 03:27 · Score: 1

This time next year, we may be saying 'quad-core Cortex A9 smartphones *just* hit the market', and the NGP will have been out for a couple of weeks which just hit the market. 12 months to catchup, doubt it, 24 months yes.
Re:Which means... by Creepy · 2011-01-28 05:50 · Score: 2

for clarification on your post, the PowerVR SGX540 is a 4 core version, not 4 chips. PowerVR has an 8 core chip as well that can push 5x the triangles and has 4x the fill rate, but that probably consumed too much power (they may not have the power reqs of phones, but they still have reqs).
My guess is they went with PowerVR because they had the fastest GPU that wasn't only a system-on-a-chip. Snapdragon Adreno's performance numbers are pretty bad comparably (they are geared more to battery life), and nVidia Tegra is a system-on-a-chip and only dual Cortex A9 CPUs, not quad. Graphics are still pretty heavy CPU loads on modern smartphones, but as shader architectures like OpenGL 2 ES are adopted, I expect more of this work to be offloaded onto the chip.
Re:Which means... by Svartalf · 2011-01-28 05:58 · Score: 2

Heh... Someone could probably already make a smartphone in that same class. Unless Sony's getting a complete exclusive on the cores on their SoC (VERY Unlikely...) someone else can spin one. If Sony's doing what I think they are, then someone else can just buy the SoC and put it in a smartphone.
A generation beyond? I respect John Carmack a lot because of his contributions to a LOT of things in the game and other industries. In this one, I'm a bit afraid he's overstated the NGP's play here.

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Re:Which means... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-01-28 06:01 · Score: 0

"Carmack Says NGP Is a 'Generation Beyond' Smartphones"
Which means it probably has a price to match. Sadly.
*shrugs* If you're one of those people that only buys a phone on contract(especially in the US!), then yes it will seem outrageous to you.
But it could be priced anywhere from 400 to 900 dollars and it would be completely normal for a non-contract phone. I seriously doubt it would be any higher than that.
if that's too high for you...get a job. Or more realistic lifestyle requirements.
Re:Which means... by Nyder · 2011-01-28 08:34 · Score: 1

"Carmack Says NGP Is a 'Generation Beyond' Smartphones"
Which means it probably has a price to match. Sadly.
Plus the generation beyond Smartphones don't apparently make any phone calls.

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Re:Which means... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-01-28 14:21 · Score: 0

Sucks to be you pal what Phone are you using? It renders nicely on my iPhone and iPad, it's almost like D3 it's entirely designed for them. *smooth*
Re:Which means... by Phoghat · 2011-01-28 23:23 · Score: 1

Unfortunately goddamn Sony is still stuck in the proprietary memory card meme. Haven't they ever heard of SDHC or Micro SDHC? I mean, WTF?

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Re:Which means... by Mike+Buddha · 2011-01-31 12:41 · Score: 1

"Carmack Says NGP Is a 'Generation Beyond' Smartphones"
Which means it probably has a price to match. Sadly.
Plus the generation beyond Smartphones don't apparently make any phone calls.
This generation doesn't make phone calls, if you've got an iPhone. Neither did the last two gens.

--
by Mike Buddha -- Someday the mountain might get him, but the law never will.
Re:Which means... by sznupi · 2011-02-11 17:09 · Score: 1

Unfortunately goddamn people are still stuck in the "evil proprietary Sony" meme. Haven't they heard about wide use of SD by Sony, or how SE is microSD exclusive for a year or two? (not to mention involvement in such standards as FDD, CD, S/PDIF, DAT, DVD, DV, HDV... or how console carts have different purpose from memcards) I mean, WTF?

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Re:Which means... by sznupi · 2011-02-11 17:13 · Score: 1

Though, to be fair, nothing will really target leading specs in smartphones and nothing will be optimized too much for any particular hardware; like with PCs...
OTOH - all NGP titles will work on exactly the same, fast (for the field) machine. With aggressive optimizations possible (if not at the start)

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One that hath name thou can not otter

OK! OK! We get it already.. by LighterShadeOfBlack · 2011-01-28 00:45 · Score: 0

It's next generation. It's a generation beyond. It's Jean-Luc Picard to everybody else's James T Kirk. Stop fucking beating us over the head with it.

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Re:OK! OK! We get it already.. by commodore6502 · 2011-01-28 01:03 · Score: 2

James Kirk had better writers (actual science fiction writers like Harlan Ellison).
Sony sure has screwed-up. They had the #1 console for ten years. They sold nearly 300 million units and smashed the competition (nintendo64, sega saturn, gamecube, xbox). And then threw it all away with bad ideas and an overpriced PS3. Not that PS3 is a bad console but a release price of $700 is ridiculously high.
Now it appears they are repeating the PS3 mistake with the PSP-2. They ought to learn a lesson from Nintendo - less powerful but cheap consoles == something kids can afford.

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Re:OK! OK! We get it already.. by Anonymous Coward · 2011-01-28 01:21 · Score: 0

that should be 65C816 (sorry)
Re:OK! OK! We get it already.. by commodore6502 · 2011-01-28 01:30 · Score: 1

>>>should be 65C816
Thanks. And I accidentally said two days ago that I own a Windows 3 laptop with 80386. I meant the 80386SX with the 16 bit bus. I apologize. ;-)

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Information wants to be expensive AND wants to be free. So you have Value vs. Cheap distribution fighting each other.
Re:OK! OK! We get it already.. by Eraesr · 2011-01-28 01:30 · Score: 1

Don't forget that they sold over 60 million PSP units, which isn't exactly shabby either. That's more than N64 and GameCube combined. It's just that this number looks kind of bleak compared to the staggering 144 million DS units Nintendo sold.
Re:OK! OK! We get it already.. by BasilBrush · 2011-01-28 01:42 · Score: 1

Since N64 and Gamecube were both considered relative failures, that's not so impressive.
Re:OK! OK! We get it already.. by Grizzley9 · 2011-01-28 01:53 · Score: 1

Don't forget that they sold over 60 million PSP units, which isn't exactly shabby either. That's more than N64 and GameCube combined.

Why are you comparing handheld sales to consoles?
Re:OK! OK! We get it already.. by SimonTheSoundMan · 2011-01-28 02:08 · Score: 2, Insightful

Orginal Gameboy almost sold 119 million, Gameboy Color sold 118 million, Gameboy Advanced sold 81.51 million. This is not including the other variations to the Gameboy series, like the Micro, Light, Advanced SP etc. Not forgetting Nintendo had competitors like the Sega Gamegear.
60 million of all PSPs over 7 years is shabby.
Re:OK! OK! We get it already.. by Lumpy · 2011-01-28 02:24 · Score: 1

Because far more Honda Civics sold compared to 6 karat diamond rings!

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Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Re:OK! OK! We get it already.. by SimonTheSoundMan · 2011-01-28 02:33 · Score: 0, Redundant

Orginal Gameboy almost sold 119 million, Gameboy Color sold 118 million, Gameboy Advanced sold 81.51 million. This is not including the other variations to the Gameboy series, like the Micro, Light, Advanced SP etc. Not forgetting Nintendo had competitors like the Sega Gamegear.
60 million of all PSPs over 7 years is indeed shabby.
Re:OK! OK! We get it already.. by elrous0 · 2011-01-28 03:45 · Score: 1

But can it render Toy Story in real-time? That's the real question.

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Re:OK! OK! We get it already.. by Megane · 2011-01-28 04:03 · Score: 1

And as long as someone has brought up your sig... what about the Atari 5200? It's the original HUEG console!

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Re:OK! OK! We get it already.. by Svartalf · 2011-01-28 06:01 · Score: 1

Heh... It's not even really next generation except for gaming handhelds right at the moment. All it would take to have a smartphone "catch up" is grab the SoC for the NGP or a similar one and put it in a phone.

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I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
Re:OK! OK! We get it already.. by RyuuzakiTetsuya · 2011-01-28 06:03 · Score: 1

the GB didn't have to compete against real competitors. The Lynx, the Game Gear, et al. had a lousy lack luster game line up compared to the PSP's in relative terms. There were nearly no must-haves in the GG's lineup, or Lynx's. PSP? I could name a few. Not to mention the business model that Sony has is way superior to Atari or Sega's. Given that Sony's still making hardware.

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Non impediti ratione cogitationus.

In the past... by Aladrin · 2011-01-28 00:46 · Score: 4, Insightful

In the past, portable gaming systems were always WAY beyond cell phones and other mobile devices. The fact that they recently caught up must be very scary for Sony.

It must worry them even more that there are dozens of new smartphones every year, but the next PSP will be 5 years from now. That's a lot of competition.

Because that's what he just admitted... That smartphones are competition to the PSP. There's not much point in comparing them, otherwise.

Here's, let's try this: The PSP NGP is far more advanced than the space shuttle. ... Yeah, that just doesn't make sense. The PSP NGP is far inferior to a supercomputer. Yup, again, nonsense.

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Re:In the past... by commodore6502 · 2011-01-28 01:10 · Score: 1

>>>must be very scary for Sony.
If I was Sony I'd follow in the footsteps of Atari and Sega and just say, "Oh forget the portables." When the Lynx flopped and ditto the Game Gear, they realized the market was profitable for Nintendo, but not for them, and bowed-out.

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Information wants to be expensive AND wants to be free. So you have Value vs. Cheap distribution fighting each other.
Re:In the past... by Zelgadiss · 2011-01-28 01:28 · Score: 1

Oh they are on it already, google search for "Xperia Play".
It will only be a matter of time before a PSP2 phone comes out - given that it uses ARM as well they can reuse the CPU and probably GPU for an Android based phone.
Assuming nothing goes wrong, they can give Apple a run for their money.
Nintendo is the one that should be worried.
Re:In the past... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-01-28 02:04 · Score: 0

In the past, portable gaming systems were always WAY beyond cell phones and other mobile devices. The fact that they recently caught up must be very scary for Sony.
Caught up ? What color is the sky on your planet ? Either you have mobile phone keys or touchscreen as controls, good enough for casual 5 minutes at a time games, doesn't work for the kind of games that are released for NDS or PSP. On IPhone you can't change battery so even if you wanted to do some serious gaming on long travel you cant. Try Scribblenauts, Animal crossing, Super Mario 64 DS or God of War Chains of Olympus, Killzone Liberation. If you can show me something similar in game play and presentation go ahead. I wont throw away handhelds yet.
Re:In the past... by icebraining · 2011-01-28 02:08 · Score: 1

Which was a shame, since it allowed Nintendo to gouge the market for years. Yeah, the game gear ate batteries like a pig, but it had a nice backlighted color screen which would only appear on the Gameboy ten years later.

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Re:In the past... by redemtionboy · 2011-01-28 04:49 · Score: 1

I would disagree in this case. I think by launching a phone line that actually competes against the NGP is just another way that they're going to cannibalize their sales and fracture their install basis. If the Playstation Suite catches on outside of Sony Phones, they might have a chance at success, but that's asking a lot. It may be a cool product, but Sony is going to be another android phone in an already fractured market, where the key to their success is having a solid install basis. Don't get me wrong, I'm excited about the tech and software entirely, but I question the potential market success of this product. "If nothing goes wrong" is asking for a dream scenario of success. You're going 100:1 in the 4th quarter with 3 seconds left on the shot clock to score a grand slam blern.
Re:In the past... by mustPushCart · 2011-01-28 05:24 · Score: 1

And yet.... sony seems to love smart phones...
http://www.pcworld.com/article/218065/sony_hedges_bets_with_playstation_suite.html
Playstation Suite, a software framework that will let Android phones run Playstation games. Sony skimped on details, but said Playstation Suite will start with PSOne games when it launches for Android 2.3 phones later this year
Re:In the past... by Lemmy+Caution · 2011-01-28 06:04 · Score: 1

It's Sony. Nintendo doesn't have to worry - it just has to stay out of the way while Sony self-destructs due to internal conflicts, dead-end media formats mandated by other Sony divisions, unrealistic price-points, market-alienating legal maneuvers, and the like.
Nintendo needs to worry about Microsoft: now that Xbox and Kinect are the golden children in Redmond - and seeing how much better Microsoft is in dealing with the global market than either of the Japanese companies are - the next gen could belong to MS. Nintendo has to "open the kimono" a little bit if it wants to continue on the successes of the Wii and the DS.
Re:In the past... by Sir_Sri · 2011-01-28 09:36 · Score: 1

ya, and specifically, it's only *1* generation ahead of cell phones, and even then, it's not on store shelves yet. By the time it hits (close to xmas) we'll be seeing talk of 4 core ARM9 droid phones just as we were all wondering if the nexus S was going to be the first dual core Droid phone.
Which I think was the point of the rest of the announcement. The PSP2 *should* be a phone, but isn't, but they're at least going to make all that PSP/PSP2/PSone goodness available on other ARM9 devices soon enough via a software store. That might mean that the PSP2 gets one year as a sort of first adopter reference design marketing device, and then the second and 3rd year we start seeing either PSP2 phones or just PSP games on droid.
It creates an interesting 5 year strategy though. Year one, PSP2 reference device. Year 2 and 3, PSP2 phone or PSP2 slim (whichever of those is easier), year 4 PSP2 'superphone' which would be like a 6 or 8 core device but only 4 reserved for gaming. Year 5 is nothing new while they work on PSP3.
Wouldn't it be nice if htey could unify the architecture and have the PS4 and PSP2 both on ARM9 (or at least ARM something) chips so you could have synchronized gaming on the go, buy the game once an it always works and keeps progress between both.
Re:In the past... by Zelgadiss · 2011-01-28 13:04 · Score: 1

Ya, releasing the phone so close to NGP launch is a little weird (not to mention that the PSP is about to be retired), but you can also see it as a "test" run to iron out problems.
And when I said "If nothing goes wrong", I meant nothing goes terribly wrong. That they don't drop the ball and botch it, something that happens with Sony quite a bit, not "hope for perfect circumstances".
IMO it's either integrate you game platform into a phone, or wait for Apple to eat your market share. Few people like carrying an extra gadget around, they will use whatever device is available to game i.e. their phone.
Re:In the past... by Zelgadiss · 2011-01-28 13:10 · Score: 1

It's Sony. Nintendo doesn't have to worry - it just has to stay out of the way while Sony self-destructs due to internal conflicts, dead-end media formats mandated by other Sony divisions, unrealistic price-points, market-alienating legal maneuvers, and the like.
Nintendo needs to worry about Microsoft: now that Xbox and Kinect are the golden children in Redmond - and seeing how much better Microsoft is in dealing with the global market than either of the Japanese companies are - the next gen could belong to MS. Nintendo has to "open the kimono" a little bit if it wants to continue on the successes of the Wii and the DS.
Yes, yes. I'm sure they will repeat ALL their mistakes they made in the past. /rolleyes
When it comes to open-formats they notice no one but a few geeks give a damn - not to mention the same few geeks will probably use the open-standard as a way to hack the system too.
Anyway the point of discussion here is, IMO if you want your handheld platform to survive it's goes to be necessary to integrate it into a phone. Few people like carrying an extra gadget around, they will use whatever device is available to game on i.e. their phone.
The era of standalone handheld consoles might be coming to an end.

Is this suprising? by effigiate · 2011-01-28 00:46 · Score: 1

Device designed specifically for gaming out-games devices designed to perform multiple functions. News at 11.

Re:Yeah by lyinhart · 2011-01-28 00:48 · Score: 2

And the technical aspcets of the PSP were also beyond any other similar device of its generation and yet it fall behind in sales to the NDS in every market. Is not about the power of the hardware, is about the entertainment that brings the games.

If it was about the entertainment, then NDS wouldn't be doing so well either. Most of the titles are shovelware games, primarily based on TV shows and other properties. But the DS is very popular among kids. The problem with the PSP was that it tried to provide the exact same experience as a home console on a handheld, so what you ended up with were watered down home console games. At least with the DS, you have that touch screen that provides for some game features unique to that product.

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lol by Charliemopps · 2011-01-28 00:51 · Score: 4, Insightful

"the NGP will have two proprietary memory card slots."

You'd think Sony would have learned by now.

Re:lol by LordKronos · 2011-01-28 01:00 · Score: 3, Insightful

Yeah, well despite all of their past media format defeats, they just won on BluRay so now they are more convinced than ever. They're like the person that's been pumping $100 worth of quarters into the slot machine all day and just got a $10 payoff...they're on a roll now. So they double down by playing 2 slot machines at once, so they can double their "winnings".
Re:lol by RedK · 2011-01-28 01:07 · Score: 2

Or maybe it's their past format wins that inspired them continue. You know, things like CD, DVD, the 3 1/2" floppy, BetaCam...
It's not like Blu-ray is Sony's first media format win. But then again, everytime Sony gets one in, there's always someone that thinks it's the first time.

--
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Anonymous Coward on Monday August 04, @06:49PM
Re:lol by commodore6502 · 2011-01-28 01:16 · Score: 2

Sony tries to run their Commercial division the way they run their Professional division. In the Pro division they are constantly introducing new formats - first Umatic VCRs, then Betacam, then Betacam SP, then Video8, then Hi8, the Betacam Digital, then Betacam HD, and so on.
The pros happily gobble-up all these new formats because they can afford the huge upgrade costs, but that doesn't work for the Consumer division. You'd think Sony would finally learn but they never do. They just keep introducing one flop after another (betamax, super betamax, betamax ED, minidisc, memory cards, etc). Their only real successes were the cooperative ones like CD, DVD, and Bluray where they shared the profits with other companies.

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Re:lol by MadKeithV · 2011-01-28 01:18 · Score: 0

First post!
Re:lol by JBMcB · 2011-01-28 01:27 · Score: 3, Informative

CD was developed jointly with Phillips, and Phillips is generally more credited with pushing CDs as a standard (most of the actual standards documents were released by Phillips.)
DVD was also jointly developed by Phillips and Sony, but it was based mostly on a previous standard by Toshiba.
Sony came out with a 3" floppy standard that went nowhere. A consortium of companies took the standard and developed the 3.5" floppy standard.
Betacam was a good professional format widely used, just like DAT, though not adopted widely by the general public.
So, yeah, when Sony teams up with Phillips to develop new media they hit home runs. On their own - not so much (Beta, 3" Floppy, Consumer DAT, Minidisc, Memory Stick...)

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Re:lol by jo_ham · 2011-01-28 01:48 · Score: 3, Informative

Video8 was never a pro format! It was better than VHS-C, but barely. Both Video8 and Hi8 were much more consumer focussed, although there were some pro Hi8 cameras.
MiniDisc is also far from a flop - it is used extensively in the radio industry and in ENG applications and is still one of the best replacements for cassette tape as a re-recordable medium. It failed in the consumer space because the consumer-level decks had the stupid Serial Copy Management System that prevented you making digital copies more than one generation deep (even of your own stuff), which the pro-hardware didn't have. It also faced the rise of the mp3 player. It was also pretty successful in the UK market before mp3 came along, with several manufacturers selling portable and deck players and combined HiFi systems with MD built in. The pre-recorded market never took off - there was no benefit over CD at the time, but as a re-recordable format it was a huge hit.
Re:lol by Anonymous Coward · 2011-01-28 02:02 · Score: 1

No kidding. I don't care how advanced or how proprietary this device is, I won't buy it -- because it's a Sony. Because of all the nonsense with the Sony rootkit, deleting "Other OS", and now suing people for trying to open their own machines.
Proprietary memory card slots? I wouldn't expect anything less from a company that is so incorrigible.
Re:lol by Anonymous Coward · 2011-01-28 02:02 · Score: 0

CD was developed jointly with Phillips...DVD was also jointly developed by Phillips and Sony, but it was based mostly on a previous standard by Toshiba....A consortium of companies took the standard and developed the 3.5" floppy standard.
Sony also worked with Phillips on BR.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_Disc#Origins
Re:lol by Anonymous Coward · 2011-01-28 02:02 · Score: 1

I assume RedK is talking about pushing and popularizing formats, but lest any of the younger crowd think Sony invented these formats:
The CD was invented by Battelle, it was simply licensed by Sony/Philips.
The DVD was essentially invented by a co-op between DiscoVision and Philips in the form of the LaserDisc (wow, remember those!).
The floppy was invented by IBM and originally 8" square (see beginning of War Games), Sony did create the 3.5" format size though.
Of course, BetaMax was developed by Sony. While technically superior to JVC's VHS format, it was a failure in the consumer space. I think it was used pretty heavily in professional video production though.
Other Sony formats that are least arguably consumer failures:
DAT - Digital Audio Tape
Minidisc
AATRAC (audio compression)
MemoryStick
UMD - Universal Media Disc
Re:lol by SimonTheSoundMan · 2011-01-28 02:16 · Score: 1

Betacam is essentially the same tape, from SP through to HD-Cam SR. Betacam is backwards compatible - You can play small or large Beta-SP tapes in a digibeta deck, or digibeta tapes in a HD-Cam SR deck. They are brilliant formats, and still used today. Mind you, a digibeta recordable deck will still set you back £40,000, or HD-Cam SR for around £90,000.
Re:lol by Lumpy · 2011-01-28 02:33 · Score: 1

DAT is used heavily even today in the pro world. it's a failure in the consumer world for one reason only the Copyright bit disallowed recording DAT to DAT making home recorders useless.
Minidisc was not a failure, it sold more units than mp3 players did for the first few years mp3 players were available. it just had bad timing and shoddy quality of the portable players coupled with overly complex tiny tinfoil parts that were easily destroyed.
memory-stick and UMD were designed for sony products only to do vendor lock in. they did their job well.
AATRAC was too little too late with too much DRM.

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Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Re:lol by rjstanford · 2011-01-28 02:59 · Score: 1

The DVD was essentially invented by a co-op between DiscoVision and Philips in the form of the LaserDisc (wow, remember those!).
Not sure how you can compare the LD (of which I had many) - a 12" analog format stored as laser-readable media - with the DVD, whose main innovation was that it contained compressed digital content.

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You're special forces then? That's great! I just love your olympics!
Re:lol by Anonymous Coward · 2011-01-28 03:05 · Score: 0

In the States, it had the additional problem of expensive media. Around $12 dollars a disc in bulk, $16 for singles. You could import discs from Japan at about 1/3 -1/4 the price, but nobody saw those cheaper disc prices if they were looking at a deck at the store, which cost North of $400 when they first came out. They had a couple of years to get prices to a reasonable level before CD-R really took off and just blew it.
If they priced it the same as they did in the Japanese market during the same time periods, it would have done a lot better.
Re:lol by Anonymous Coward · 2011-01-28 03:14 · Score: 1

It is understandable that they want them.
Sony's pride appears to have been damaged because one single "whiz kid" broke their DRM on their PS3 wide open. So, they are starting from the ground up on yet another "standard" so they can put in the latest encryption and whatever schemes... which some other guy will have a crack for shortly after release.
DRM made Sony a bit player when it came to MP3 players and cellphones. All it would take it Apple making a console system, and Sony would be all but irrelevant to consumers (except for stereo and pro equipment.)
Re:lol by Anonymous Coward · 2011-01-28 03:38 · Score: 1

I'd think that whoever records audio these days on anything but a solid state medium is crazy anyway. A minute of googling gave me the following: U-REC5 lets you record analog sources on SD cards or USB sticks for about $100, and it's rackmount. iKey Audio RM3 is a similar product costing about $50 more. I'm sure there must be something in that ballpark that would take and output S/PDIF, too, just didn't search long enough. Then Marantz PMD661 is a professional-targeted product that has smaller form factor and has digital (S/PDIF) input and sells for $599. About the only thing I can imagine going for pro MiniDisc recorders is that they can be remotely controlled. Given that SD space is essentially free, for recording you wouldn't care much anyway. And for playback -- well, noone uses multiple discrete players these days anyways, at least not in a modern setup. Radio stations play all their material automatically using what amounts to a glorified PC. Shows (theater, etc) pretty much only need a cue-start for preloaded sequences from multiple systems (lighting, pyro, audio) -- there you basically have a multitrack rackmount HD / SSD player with sync I/O, MIDI, etc, but things pretty much run off a single "cue" button, with UI provided by individual systems to tweak things (adjust lights, tweak sound mix for the venue, etc).
So, as far as I'm concerned, anything with moving parts in the storage system doesn't really belong in audio processing these days. Absolutely no need for it. And, as far as thermal engineering goes, I'd just as well have all pro audio and other live performance gear not use fans on anything but external heatsinks -- with the interior of the equipment designed for passive heat dumping onto the heatsink (think hot/cold pipes, etc).
Re:lol by Anonymous Coward · 2011-01-28 04:21 · Score: 0

So long as Sony isn't intending for their new format to take over the world or become some standard for others, this is fine. Or would you have laughed at Nintendo for inventing a proprietary cartridge for the original gameboy?
The reason we laughed at UMD isn't really because it was a stupid format for the PSP. I would expect most of us laughed because it was a stupid format that Sony expected lots of others to make use of outside of the PSP market. (UMD movies, etc)
They want a special type of card to hold their new PSP2 games on, that's awesome. All the power to them. It's a step UP from UMD since it's not going to be a battery hog and has a bunch of capabilities that are suitable for the cosole itself. (Although I fear the way Sony will implement these writable cards.)
Re:lol by MikeBabcock · 2011-01-28 04:54 · Score: 1

Why? Was Nintendo wrong to use proprietary cartridge formats for their game platforms up to the N64?
I see no problem with this. In all likelihood one of the slots will be Memory Stick and the other will be Memory Stick with a funny shape.

--
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
Re:lol by MikeBabcock · 2011-01-28 04:55 · Score: 1

Geohot didn't get sued for hacking the system. He got sued for publishing the hack.
I'm a big believer in rooting my phones, but I understand how game systems work ... the hardware is a loss leader for the company, and unless you want future game systems to cost as much as high powered PCs, you should be against rooting them too.

--
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
Re:lol by LordVader717 · 2011-01-29 04:09 · Score: 1

As a distribution medium for a closed games console it makes perfect sense. Compatibility is only interesting when there are other devices that use the data. As no other machine will be designed to run the PSP2 games, nothing is lost.
The DS cards are "proprietary", as are any game carts that came before it, and even the DVDs for the PS3, 360 and Wii are proprietary due to the use of encryption and signing technologies.
Since Sony have slowly been warming to SD cards, they might even include a dual SD / memory stick slot for extra storage.
Re:lol by Anonymous Coward · 2011-01-29 11:19 · Score: 0

Presumably they've learnt that Average Joe doesn't know enough about adapters that they still buy Sony's proprietary cards instead?

what kind of generation? by Vectormatic · 2011-01-28 00:53 · Score: 2, Insightful

In portable gaming device land, one generation is somewhere around 5 years, which would be OK for sony, since for the entire lifespan of the thing, it will lead smartphones in terms of specs. In mobile phone land, a generation is around 1 year (you know, to get the general cattle frothing at the mouth for the new shiny for a few months before their contract is up for renewal), see apple if you need evidence, 1 apple, 1 year, 1 iphone...

Now guess what happens when sony release the NGP next holiday season, only to be overtaken by phones within a year.

Also, everyone claiming this thing is as powerfull as a PS3, can i have some of what you are smoking?

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People, what a bunch of bastards

Re:what kind of generation? by commodore6502 · 2011-01-28 01:24 · Score: 2

>>>In mobile phone land, a generation is around 1 year
This is why I keep postponing purchase of a new phone. I know that the $200 iPhone-clone with internet capability will probably drop to $30 1.5 years from now. I'm a patient person.
>>>see apple if you need evidence
And Macs. Got a G4 that won't run the latest Safari or iTunes (good thing Opera supports old computers else I'd be browserless). I eventually sold the G4 ought of frustration. Meanwhile my XP-PC still runs everything I throw at it, even though it's a year older. "Long term support" is one advantage MS has over Apple. even though MS software is inferior.

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Information wants to be expensive AND wants to be free. So you have Value vs. Cheap distribution fighting each other.
Re:what kind of generation? by Plasmoid2000ad · 2011-01-28 01:25 · Score: 1

True but how many games target the latest iPhone solely as opposed to iOS, which could be many kinds of devices. So 1 year from release, iPhone6 running iOS 6.0.1 rivals the NGP/PSP2 for raw graphics. What about all those running the 3GS on iOS 4? I'd say they have a year and a half, maybe 2 years to get a lead.
Re:what kind of generation? by Snospar · 2011-01-28 02:56 · Score: 1

I'm still using my original Gameboy you insensitive clod!

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Moore's law is not a law. Theory, yes; Predictable trend, certainly; Law, no.
Re:what kind of generation? by rjstanford · 2011-01-28 03:01 · Score: 1

r
This is why I keep postponing purchase of a new phone. I know that the $200 iPhone-clone with internet capability will probably drop to $30 1.5 years from now. I'm a patient person.
Like the $99 iPhone 3 you can get today? Of course, if you're waiting for the iPhone 4 equiv you're right, but by then the iPhone 5 will be out and you'll be back in "waiting mode."

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You're special forces then? That's great! I just love your olympics!
Re:what kind of generation? by Anonymous Coward · 2011-01-28 10:13 · Score: 0

You can already get something better than an iPhone clone for about $30. Just a few weeks ago I picked up a palm pre for $35 on ebay.
Re:what kind of generation? by Taxman415a · 2011-01-29 05:34 · Score: 1

This is why I keep postponing purchase of a new phone. I know that the $200 iPhone-clone with internet capability will probably drop to $30 1.5 years from now. I'm a patient person.
I haven't looked that much but I'm nearly positive you can get a low end android phone now for that $30 that will do at least say 50% of what an iPhone or the higher end phones will do and you can even go without a contract. That 50% may be 90% or more of what you want to do or it may not but it will likely surprise you how much more you can do with a computer you carry with you all the time that has a mobile data plan.

And Macs. Got a G4 that won't run the latest Safari or iTunes (good thing Opera supports old computers else I'd be browserless). I eventually sold the G4 ought of frustration. Meanwhile my XP-PC still runs everything I throw at it, even though it's a year older. "Long term support" is one advantage MS has over Apple. even though MS software is inferior.
Yeah you got nailed by a major platform change. It was for the better in the long run, but didn't work out so well for you in terms of software support. In general though Mac hardware lasts much much longer than PC hardware. Before the intel switch you would see people with Macs 2-3 times older than other peoples' PCs and still doing what they wanted with them. It's premium hardware and it does last longer in most cases.
Re:what kind of generation? by spire3661 · 2011-01-30 07:35 · Score: 1

I have a Palm Pre Plus, and I love it to death. But almost NO ONE makes anything for it. I was honestly shocked that Angry Birds has a palm logo on their website.

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Good-bye

Yep, that's Sony by LordKronos · 2011-01-28 00:55 · Score: 3, Interesting

Wow. TWO proprietary card slots? The game media I can understand, and even though it's proprietary I'd understand the secondary slot being Sony Memory Stick (I'd hate it, but it's sony, so I'd understand). But we're not even talking proprietary as in Sony Memory Stick, but as in an entirely new media format. Way to go, Sony.

Oh, and they don't see how 3D translates to portable gaming? Well, I'm not surprised. They didn't see how motion control translated to console video gaming either, and laughed about how useless it was for 3 years before their "hey, hey, look at me....we can do it too, and in the lamest way possible" release of Move. I wouldn't be surprised if 2 years down the line they are suddenly all over 3D portable gaming and end up implementing it on the NGP by shipping new games with a pair of red/blue glasses.

Re:Yep, that's Sony by Anonymous Coward · 2011-01-28 01:31 · Score: 0

Proprietary card slots seem to work well for Nintendo ?
Re:Yep, that's Sony by MikeBabcock · 2011-01-28 04:57 · Score: 2

You must be new here. People complain that Sony is proprietary (even though any old USB device works with my PS3 and I can even plug in standard logitech keyboards to type or Epson printers to print my photos), but don't complain about the 360's locked down ports or Nintendo's lack of anything standard.
They whine because they're anti-Sony, not because they have a good reason. We call it hating.

--
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
Re:Yep, that's Sony by LordKronos · 2011-01-28 08:45 · Score: 1

If you read my post, you will see that I said I could understand the game itself being proprietary. But the removable media is going to be for things like photos, application data, etc. I absolutely expect that to be on standard removable media formats. Wii uses a standard SD card. Xbox 360 has now dumped memory cards and uses standard USB thumb drives. That's great because those are standard media formats. I don't have to buy extra memory specifically for those devices. When I decided I needed to copy a savegame off of my Wii for the very first time, I didn't have to go to the store and buy a Wii Memory Card. I simply went to my little box of spare flash memory and grabbed an SD card. Likewise with my cameras (I have both a DSLR and a P&S) I need to have an extra memory card handy in case one of them runs out of space. Since they both use the same cards (SDHC) I don't need to keep an extra card for each one. I simply have 1 extra card in case one of them fills up. When devices use their own proprietary media formats, it makes this type of stuff a lot less convenient to deal with.
Re:Yep, that's Sony by indiechild · 2011-01-28 20:56 · Score: 1

3D is hugely overrated at this point. If it was a killer feature, Apple would have implemented it already. Give it another 5 years, then it might be usable. Either that, or it dies a horrible death.
Re:Yep, that's Sony by Burpmaster · 2011-01-28 21:39 · Score: 1

I'd say they have a good reason to complain if they have to pay 2-3 times the market price for X amount of storage capacity because Sony invented an unnecessary new format that does the same thing as SD cards. Stop being a defensive fanboy and work on reading comprehension.
Re:Yep, that's Sony by Anonymous Coward · 2011-01-29 03:07 · Score: 0

Yeah it must be fun to have to move the device back and forth just to find a sweet spot so the effect doesn't look like ass and as an added bonus get a headache from it.
3D sure is brilliant. Not.

Unfortunately it's a Sony by Anonymous Coward · 2011-01-28 00:55 · Score: 0

No way I'm going to buy that.

I've heard this song before by commodore6502 · 2011-01-28 00:57 · Score: 3, Informative

"The Jaguar is 64 bit! Not as powerful as the N64, but more powerful than the 32 bit Sony Playstation." - Jack Tramel, Atari

"The PS2 will be able to do Toy Story graphics in real time!" - Sony

"The PS3 will be so great, people will WANT to pay $700 to get it!" - Ken Kutaragi

Fool me once, shame on you.
Fool me twice, shame on me.
Fool me 4 times, shame on both of us.

--
Information wants to be expensive AND wants to be free. So you have Value vs. Cheap distribution fighting each other.

Re:I've heard this song before by Anonymous Coward · 2011-01-28 01:36 · Score: 0

In other news, seriously retarded people are still seriously retarded.
Re:I've heard this song before by Radres · 2011-01-28 04:45 · Score: 1

There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on... shame on you. Fool me... You can't get fooled again!
Re:I've heard this song before by gbjbaanb · 2011-01-28 04:49 · Score: 1

Fool me 4 times, shame on both of us.
Fool me 4 times, chances are 5 and 6 times are going to happen too :)
Re:I've heard this song before by Anonymous Coward · 2011-01-28 07:20 · Score: 0

I paid $700 for a launch PS3 (let someone queue for up and paid over the rrp). I've over 70 games for it, not including PSN titles. $700 isn't much when spending over $4000 on games, and another large sum on blu-ray titles. Compare $700 to my receiver at $1600. Not so dear in the end, is it?
Pissed off about not using SD for storage, though. I don't care about the game card, but storage?
Re:I've heard this song before by Nyder · 2011-01-28 08:39 · Score: 1

wtf!
I just typed a nice replay, and the whole fucking text just disappeared.
seriously this new design, sucks badly.
You can't even tell where the fucking links are, can't tell what is quoted.
fuck you slashdot, you are totally sucking now.

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Be seeing you...
Re:I've heard this song before by commodore6502 · 2011-01-29 02:50 · Score: 1

>>>$700 isn't much when spending over $4000 on [70] games
All you've proven is the old saying, "A fool and his money are soon parted," is accurate Every game I buy costs less than $20 because I wait for the inevitable pricedrop.
And typically I sell them for $15+ on ebay, so figure $4 each game or $280 total. The PS3 I have not bought yet, but will eventually buy for $100-150 just as I did with the PS2 and Gamecube and Xbox. (I'm still working my way through the PS1/2/GC titles, so I'm in no rush to upgrade.)
You spent $4700.
Sometime in 2011 I will get the same PS3 system + 70 games for 90% off...... over 4000 saved.

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Information wants to be expensive AND wants to be free. So you have Value vs. Cheap distribution fighting each other.

Hi, my name is John Carmack and I endorse this... by pla · 2011-01-28 01:12 · Score: 2

...And in completely unrelated news, Sony has just announced that the NGP will ship with a remake of Doom (and have no other titles available at launch).

Freedom of choice by Goffee71 · 2011-01-28 01:15 · Score: 0

Fine, so none of the early commenters here want to play good looking games on the go.
Well, I'll have some of that and I'll pay reasonable money to do so. Also, every portable console EVER has had proprietary storage - why should this one be different?
Some sensible PSP2 news, thoughts and reaction for people actually interested and not starting a typical sdt bitchfest - http://bit.ly/hXdAUi

--
If he's the Walrus then can I be a penguin please?

Re:Freedom of choice by LordKronos · 2011-01-28 01:27 · Score: 2

Also, every portable console EVER has had proprietary storage - why should this one be different?

For the game media? Sure, I'll accept proprietary, But the secondary slot is for non-game data....like, say, photos taken with the camera, and other data from applications. If you are going to have those stored to built in, non-removable memory, we don't like that but we'd understand. But if you are going to be good enough to put it on removable media, then use something that's already standard. For crying out loud, we've got SD, mini SD, and micro SD. All have become standard and are used in tons of devices, we can all read them in our computer's existing card reader, and they cover a nice range of sizes for whatever size device you might want to squeeze it into. Don't want to go with SD. Well, OK, we've already got our proprietary Sony memory stick format, which come in full size and the smaller pro duo size, and our existing card readers will handle it. But even their own proprietary format isn't proprietary for them, so they've got to come out with something else brand new?
Re:Freedom of choice by delinear · 2011-01-28 02:13 · Score: 2

This one should be different because, as is obvious to everyone, this is more and more going to have to compete with mobile phones. A huge selection of which allow generic SD memory use. It's just one extra inconvenience of buying this for gaming over a good phone (which, as a bonus, operates as a phone).

Re:Yeah by Servaas · 2011-01-28 01:15 · Score: 2

DS has the biggest library of JRPG's on any platform to date... Atlas has been providing some very entertaining, quality products for the entire of the DS's lifespan. If you think the DS is for kids you are talking on hear say, not actual fact.

Re:Yeah by damnbunni · 2011-01-28 01:16 · Score: 1

There are vast numbers of crappy DS games, it's true.

However, there are also lots and lots of non-crappy DS games.

Remember Sturgeon's Law: Ninety percent of everything is crap.

carmack is an apple fanboy by Verunks · 2011-01-28 01:23 · Score: 0

as much as I like Carmack for everything he did, he's becoming an apple fanboy, during the last quakecon he asked the people there how many of them buy from the apple app store and how many from the android market, the result was pretty much even and he didn't expect that, he was all like "wow there are more than two people here buying from the android market".
Also he always disliked the PS3 so I would expect no less from him on the NGP

Re:carmack is an apple fanboy by jo_ham · 2011-01-28 01:58 · Score: 3, Interesting

Wow, so merely liking a platform that is unpopular with slashdot makes you a fanboy now? Is it possible for him to genuinely find iOS compelling for what he is doing in his line of work without him being what you are equating with some brainwashed, blind worshipper. Of all people to accuse of being "hypnotised by marketing" John Carmack is pretty low down on the list of likely candidates.
So to be an apple fanboy you need to:
* work on the platform and express that you quite like it, producing some pretty good stuff.
* ask a question that you don;t know the answer to, re: android and iOS app sales in a consumer demographic that he is interested in (people going to a con named after a game he created)
* express surprise at the answer received, one that points to him possibly reevaluating how much energy to put into porting his new engine over, given that a loose poll at QuakeCon suggests that sales on Android are as high as they are on iOS among his target demographic.
* Profit?
I'm not seeing how you can twist this into "he's an Apple Fanboy" unless you really just mean "anyone who says anything positive about iOS is a fanboy" which is probably it.
Re:carmack is an apple fanboy by gregarine · 2011-01-28 02:20 · Score: 1

What has Carmack done for me lately? Last thing of his I played was Quake 3 Arena.

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I like traffic lights
Re:carmack is an apple fanboy by brunes69 · 2011-01-28 03:09 · Score: 1

I think the point was making a comment like "wow more than two people buy from the android market" is something only a fanboy would say, because it is complete BS.
Re:carmack is an apple fanboy by jo_ham · 2011-01-28 03:59 · Score: 1

That's not a quote though, at least not one that has been attributed to him by the poster. You don't quote someone by saying "he was all like" and then throwing in a cheap bit of hyperbole unless that is exactly what he said. I can't find an actual quote via google right now, but I am willing to be corrected. This is how Apple "facts" get started on /. - someone posits something like that carmack 'quote' and it is accepted as fact from then onwards. The phrase is obviously BS, and it may or may not be an actual quote. I suspect it is not, and if Carmack did express surprise at the number of people buying from the Android Marketplace that he wouldn't have worded it as flippantly as that. I strongly suspect it has either been enormously distorted to try and justify the OP's assertion that he is an "apple fanboy", or just regular outright falsehood.
Re:carmack is an apple fanboy by tibit · 2011-01-28 04:00 · Score: 1

I've recently looked at Android API documentation, and it seems to be a rather clean and understandable design. I've dabbled a bit with the SDK and running my code on one of those cheap Augen Android-based tablets from Kmart, and going past "hello world" was quite painless. Then, for reasons I can't quite understand, I seem to puke a little bit every time I see Objective C code. It just looks so darn ugly. For whatever reason I just can't stand some of Apple's APIs. Never mind that they plainly don't document some -- you'd think -- pretty basic parts of their API, at least on the desktop. Case in point: just try to find out how to open up a raw socket on a selected network interface and you'll see what I mean. One shouldn't need to google for that. By "selected" network interface I mean you know the name like en0, but the interface has no IP or anything else.
And that comes from a guy who doesn't mind seeing legacy LISP code (like Maxima sources that I used to browse quite a bit), who doesn't mind various more- and less-pure functional languages (OCaml, Haskell) and functional "hacks" like LINQ, and who can wholeheartedly embrace "customizations" like xmos's XC parallellizable variant of C. I can even stand most of IEC 61131-3 languages. I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder...

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A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
Re:carmack is an apple fanboy by donscarletti · 2011-01-28 04:26 · Score: 1

And yet Carmack still said that NGP is BETTER than his beloved apple product, despite it being made by the people who brought you the hated PS3 in all its terribleness. For a fanboy, he sure is even handed.
I think ARM is a great choice for mobile gaming, they do computing performance/watt quite well and apparently such things exist as 4 core ARM chips with the memory controller attached to each core, meaning you can write a standard multi-threaded app and it just works, unlike that SPU DMA->register file mapping nonsense that pissed everyone off when writing PS3 software. I have no idea why they didn't just solder two of these things into the PS3 and make everyone's life easier (I guess that was is a while ago). I am not surprised Carmack likes it so much.

--
When Argumentum ad Hominem falls short, try Argumentum ad Matrem
Re:carmack is an apple fanboy by codepunk · 2011-01-28 04:37 · Score: 3, Interesting

I am quite sure he prefers the iphone platform for the same exact reasons I do. The bottom line is performance. If you are a game coder being able to optimize every single clock cycle is not a nice to have feature but a must. Yes I know you can do native code development on the android but it is still a bastardization at best. It is the number one reason that iOS dominates mobile phone / platform gaming.

--

Got Code?
Re:carmack is an apple fanboy by Anonymous Coward · 2011-01-28 09:40 · Score: 0

I've wondered this myself. Since Q3A, they've made... um... Doom3. And I don't exactly see a huge glut of Doom3-engine games rocketing off the sales charts like the Quake series of engines did. Heck, I don't even see Doom3-engine games being MADE.
I do see numerous Source engine games, however. And frankly, those are one hell of a lot more fun, more colorful, and more interesting than most things I've seen in the Quake engines. Is Carmack turning into what Romero turned into when he made Diakatana? Simply counting on his name to sell something? In this case, his opinion?
Re:carmack is an apple fanboy by Anonymous Coward · 2011-01-28 09:42 · Score: 0

Well, he did develop the original DOOM and I believe Quake on NeXT hardware, so there you go. I would say he isn't so much an apple fanboy as he is a fanboy of Cocoa/ObjC
Re:carmack is an apple fanboy by Anonymous Coward · 2011-01-30 21:05 · Score: 0

It's certainly harder to get things running as high performance as possible across as large a range of Android devices as possible than it is to target Apple's few platforms. It's really the price Android pays for it's flexibility and a benefit Apple gains by only having a limited but high profit customer base (the iPhone has thus far failed to break into China/India because there is no low price handset option for example).
But it's ironic Carmack of all people struggles with this when his experience goes back to the days of having to deal with far worse- the DOS days. Even getting a game to work on Windows 7 well across multiple hardware platforms isn't any easier than Android. Native code development is not a "bastardization", it's really just like PC development on Linux, or Windows.
I generally disagree that every single clock cycle matters for modern game development, it's really just not like that anymore and hasn't been for some time, it's long been the case that ease of development has jumped in front of optimising every clock cycle which is hence why so many games use scripting engines now. There's simply so many areas you could optimise modern games far more than they are, but that we don't because it'd slow down content development. Optimisation nowadays is far more focussed on the algorithms, sensibly handing data to the GPU, and smart use of shaders than it is any kind of hardware specific low level optimisations.
Really, iOS dominates mobile gaming simply because it was first to mass market and first to put together an easy to use succesful app store to make it financially worthwhile. If it was all about performance and nothing more then the DS would've sat way behind the PSP, but quite the opposite was always the case- there are factors far more important than raw "every clock cycle matters" kind of performance now in modern game development.
Re:carmack is an apple fanboy by Mike+Buddha · 2011-01-31 12:53 · Score: 1

You puke a little bit because Objective-C was hot shit... in 1989. Programming for iOS is more annoying and backward than programming for PalmPilot circa 1997. Steve's tremendous ego at play here again. He's got to prove to everyone that he was right about Next, and the whole world was wrong/foolish to castigate him for producing over-priced, under-powered machines. He's a hack who's been a mediocre businessman for 30+ years now who finally stumbled into success by (surprise!) selling products customers want for a price they're barely willing to pay. Even with iPhones he had to be dragged kicking and screaming 'til he finally added 3G and included technology to allow games to be developed on that platform. I surmise he is still smarting from the fact that lots of people play games on his beloved iOS.

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by Mike Buddha -- Someday the mountain might get him, but the law never will.
Re:carmack is an apple fanboy by Mike+Buddha · 2011-01-31 12:57 · Score: 1

How is the native code in Android a bastardization? Most iOS game developers program all their functionality in native libraries in C or C++ using Objective-C for only those functions that are required. How is that any different from creating C or C++ native libraries for Android and using Java for the bare minimum functionality?

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by Mike Buddha -- Someday the mountain might get him, but the law never will.
Re:carmack is an apple fanboy by tibit · 2011-02-01 16:28 · Score: 1

As far as I'm concerned, Objective-C was not ever hot, unless you mean hot like radioactive. On my personal klude-o-meter it beats things like MetaSQL hands-down. IMHO if you can beat a straitjacketed industry-born mindless f-up like the latter (alien syntax spice FTW), that means something. There should be a hall of fame or something for such things ;) I'd have personally liked it better if Apple bet on, say, Symbolics, and used their technology. At least they'd get a powerful, extensible core language.

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A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.

Re:Yeah by Eraesr · 2011-01-28 01:27 · Score: 1

There are vast numbers of crappy DS games, it's true.

However, there are also lots and lots of non-crappy DS games.

Simply put: there are lots and lots of DS games.

Re:But can it make phone calls... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-01-28 01:46 · Score: 1

It doesn't matter if you think that Carmack doesn't know how to make a game. It is undeniable that the man is a god when it comes to developing game engines and that is what makes him an authority on the potential for various gaming hardware.

Bribe/hired by Anonymous Coward · 2011-01-28 01:47 · Score: 0

What is the probability that Jobs hired Carmack to attack Sony? Anyway Carmack has been attacking Sony for long as he was never respected by Sony guys and his games never worked for PS gamers.

Re:Bribe/hired by Anonymous Coward · 2011-01-28 02:04 · Score: 0

"He says that 'the Sony NGP [will] perform about a generation beyond smart phones with comparable specs.' Essentially, the fast approaching round of iOS and Android devices will still be well behind the capabilities of Sony's new handheld, which comes close to reproducing PS3-like visuals."
Wow.. Talk about your trash talk. Jobs sure got his moneys worth.
Re:Bribe/hired by Narishma · 2011-01-28 04:07 · Score: 1

Where did he attack Sony? The part where he praised their new handheld console's performance? If so I'd like to be attacked more often.

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Mada mada dane.

Re:But can it make phone calls... by Narishma · 2011-01-28 01:50 · Score: 1

It's not a smartphone, nobody said it was.

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Mada mada dane.

I'll buy one by stms · 2011-01-28 01:57 · Score: 0

As soon as its unlocked ;)

Re:I'll buy one by Lemmy+Caution · 2011-01-28 06:09 · Score: 1

As soon as its unlocked ;)
You mean 45 minutes after it's released?
Re:I'll buy one by stms · 2011-01-28 06:11 · Score: 0

Precisely.

No kidding? by rsilvergun · 2011-01-28 02:05 · Score: 1

A smart phone without a contract is $500. This'll retail for $250 and drop in price.

--
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/

Re:No kidding? by default+luser · 2011-01-28 08:46 · Score: 1

A smart phone without a contract is $500. This'll retail for $250 and drop in price.
And an Ipod Touch with 8GB included is just $230, and is just as capable of falling in price (since it is also not a phone).
The Ipod will also get a hardware upgrade yearly that I'm not expecting to see for this NGP (unless they break the "fixed platform spec" mantra successful consoles have followed for the last 30 years).

--
Man is the animal that laughs.
And occasionally whores for Karma.

Bleh... by JustAnotherIdiot · 2011-01-28 02:07 · Score: 1

I was excited yesterday when I mistook that for an SD card. Proprietary sony? Really? Again? Ahh well...it's still better than those stupid UMDs...

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What do I know, I'm just an idiot, right?

That it comes from Sony by Anonymous Coward · 2011-01-28 02:11 · Score: 0

is more than enough reason for me not to buy it.

Re:Yeah by Lumpy · 2011-01-28 02:22 · Score: 1

I see you know nothing about which you speak.

DS is popular as hell with adults. unless you think "stop smoking coach", my cooking instructor, and the exercize and brain apps are all for kids...

Johny has been chain smoking cince he was 5, time to get him of Camel non filters.

Adults make up a huge chunk of the DS market.

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Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.

Re:Yeah by Lumpy · 2011-01-28 02:23 · Score: 1

and almost NO PSP games.

Simply look at Gamestop, a wall for DS, a tiny 2 foot wide section for PSP.

PSP is a failure because there are no games for it, and what was released sucked bad.

--
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.

Re:But can it make phone calls... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-01-28 02:27 · Score: 0

While I was never as big a fan as some of the other guys I used to have a pretty good deal of respect for him, being a major indie player back in the heyday of shareware, and then later when id started doing periodic open source releases (Which if anyone else remembers the history on, will know that they really came into that kicking and screaming after someone leaked the Doom(Wolfenstein?) source code.) But honestly ever since he started Armadillo Aerospace it seems like id hasn't even been trying. Quake3 was the last major production of their's, It and Doom lasted in stores well into 2005 maybe even 2006, whereas Doom3 can't even be found on store shelves now, despite Rage not even having made it out (And remember that Doom stayed around until well after Q3A was out, being released in at least 2-3 compilation packs, before the Q1/Q2/Q3A compilation was released a few years back.) Honestly though the Sellout to Vivendi/Bethesda/Atari(?) just goes to show how far id has fallen. No longer are they the swift, technically advanced gaming company, whose engines make people perk up and listen. No longer are they producing games that not only showcase their technical prowness but also are played for years to come. Rather they're a reminder of the heyday of shareware and the dotcom bubble. Something that lead to the computer world of today, but have long since been replaced, if not surpassed, by the big budget productions and still agile small shops with whom they once competed.

RIP id software. May we at least get that promised GPL Tech 4 release out of you before your already limited autonomity is quashed for good.

Did anyone read the tweet? by GeorgeWright · 2011-01-28 02:28 · Score: 5, Informative

Posted here in full:

"Low level APIs will allow the Sony NGP to perform about a generation beyond smart phones with comparable specs."

Carmack isn't saying that the hardware in the NGP is a generation ahead of smart phones. He's saying that because of the APIs available to developers they'll be able to utilise that hardware more effectively (specifically that a developer will be able to squeeze an extra generation's worth of performance out of hardware with approx. the same specifications), which makes sense once you consider that the games are pretty much running on the bare metal, and that the entire system is optimised for gaming.

--
George Wright

Re:Did anyone read the tweet? by codepunk · 2011-01-28 04:40 · Score: 1

Exactly, it is also the reason iOS dominates as a gaming platform "native code execution".

--

Got Code?
Re:Did anyone read the tweet? by gbjbaanb · 2011-01-28 04:59 · Score: 1

and I guess that's why Google released r5 of their NDK - which basically offers native development for Android (focussed on games, but "you can now build an entire Android application without writing a single line of Java.")
Re:Did anyone read the tweet? by Nemyst · 2011-01-28 06:14 · Score: 1

It does also help that the NGP comes with a quad-core Cortex A-9 CPU. Dual-core cellphones are barely out yet.
Yes, it'll eventually get outmatched in terms of raw power, but it'll have a double lead for a while.
Re:Did anyone read the tweet? by codepunk · 2011-01-28 08:49 · Score: 1

I know about the NDK, having used it I also know how hackish it is.

--

Got Code?
Re:Did anyone read the tweet? by spire3661 · 2011-01-30 07:42 · Score: 1

And it falls flat on its face in gaming except for a few genres. Any serious gamer would never pick a touch device over pretty much anything with buttons. I can play tons of meh shit on a mobile phone or I can play some really good games with buttons on my DS/PSP.

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Good-bye
Re:Did anyone read the tweet? by Anonymous Coward · 2011-01-30 22:13 · Score: 0

Ah yes, Sony, well known for their developer-friendly APIs and bug-free tools. ROFL.

Re:But can it make phone calls... by iainl · 2011-01-28 02:43 · Score: 1

They said it's got a 3G chip in it. We don't know yet if, like the iPad, it will still be unable to do voice, but that only makes sense in Apple's case because you'd look an idiot holding against your head. And the descriptions so far suggest they expect everyone to take out a data contract, if not a voice one.

--
"I Know You Are But What Am I?"

To put it another way... by Elendil · 2011-01-28 02:55 · Score: 1

Smartphones are only one generation away from achieving console-like performance. Counting in IT generations that's what, 2 years? Sony should be worried.

Re:To put it another way... by Narishma · 2011-01-28 04:12 · Score: 1

No, you misunderstood. The title, summary and even the article didn't help either because they only quoted part of Carmack's sentence. Seriously, it's a twitter message why did they fail to quote it in it's entirety?
Here's the full quote: "Low level APIs will allow the Sony NGP to perform about a generation beyond smart phones with comparable specs."
So he isn't talking about the hardware but the software. The way you access the handheld's (and video game consoles in general) hardware is lower level than that of smartphones and PCs, so with equivalent hardware, developers can get more performance out of consoles than phones or PCs.

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Mada mada dane.

Re:But can it make phone calls... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-01-28 02:56 · Score: 0

And the descriptions so far suggest they expect everyone to take out a data contract, if not a voice one.

Including people who buy the version that doesn't include 3G capabilites?!? "Everyone" is a very broad term...

Jailbreak? by ThirdPrize · 2011-01-28 03:05 · Score: 1

I bet Sony will have learnt lots from the PS3 fiasco and this thing will be even harder to unlock.

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I have excellent Karma and I am not afraid to Troll it.

Way to Differentiate by mattwrock · 2011-01-28 03:09 · Score: 1

Sony has lost their minds... again. Why do they think power is the key to gaming? If you make your device look like a smartphone, have similar functions to a smartphone, and even use 3G, then most consumers are going to compare you to a smartphone. Your $500 gaming device will be going up against Angry Birds, a cute and free app that works on my phone. Most phones also play Farmville and Mafia Wars too. Say what you will about these games, but they are wildly popular, free, and easy to use on my phone. So your device only plays games? Meh. Nintendo will win because they are differentiating themselves by using 3D (with no glasses). If it plays all of the DS games nicely, it is looked upon as an upgrade to the current handheld. 3D makes it a gaming console in the minds of the consumers because no smartphones are even planned to have this functionality. Smartphones for simple games, Nintendo for 3D games.

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"Ones and zeros were everywhere. I even think I saw a two!" - Bender

approaching retinal display by Anonymous Coward · 2011-01-28 03:16 · Score: 0

Good news. When are we going to reach the level where the platform s are alll faster than we need for the video games? 1080p 7.1 surround. Enough storage space processing power and wifi where there is no difference....... in other words. It wont matter what system you are running. You have the same experience....

"Generation" as in. . . by Anonymous Coward · 2011-01-28 03:21 · Score: 0

. . .gaming-appropriate controls to complement gaming functionality. You know, d-pads, physical buttons, etc. Insta-win over the touch-screen only toys, with terrible ergonomics that only support shallow, gimmicky games.

Good controls combined with a modern portable (as seemingly obvious a concept as it is) are indeed a quantum leap over the iOS/Andriod devices of today, and anything that Apple will ever produce.

Re:But can it make phone calls... by Narishma · 2011-01-28 04:02 · Score: 1

You need to read those descriptions again. Only one model will offer 3G, and it may not even be offered in all countries, depending on what deals Sony gets with the different carriers.

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Mada mada dane.

Can't take this guy seriously by Anonymous Coward · 2011-01-28 04:27 · Score: 0

I just find it really hard to take any male over the age of 17 seriously if they have an iPhone. Especially someone in the tech industry thats trying to tell me how advanced something is. Could it be you're comparing it to your little white gaming device that you can talk on and not the currently leading smartphones?

Re:Can't take this guy seriously by spire3661 · 2011-01-30 07:45 · Score: 1

Despite the hype, the iphone still is a superb piece of hardware/software. Hate on it all you want its a very nice piece of kit. I am an avid Palm Pre user and my next device will probably be android, but to say the iphone is for teenage girls is just stupid.

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Good-bye

Does it matter anymore? by guidryp · 2011-01-28 04:31 · Score: 3, Insightful

I think the days are numbered for dedicated game machines when you can get Phones and tablets that will do games "good enough" for most and do much more besides.

If I stack a 7" Android tablet against the NGP. I see an open computer with plenty of free, low cost software vs a proprietary game machine with expensive proprietary apps, expensive proprietary media. I just don't think this model is really going to remain relevant anymore.

Re:Does it matter anymore? by Lemmy+Caution · 2011-01-28 06:14 · Score: 2

However, it is often content that sells platforms. Rightly or wrongly, game developers think of the Android market as one where people do not want to pay money for premium content: a buck or two for an addictive casual game is alright, but is anyone going to download a copy of Kingdom Hearts: Droid for $20?
Given that there still is a market for $20, $30, even $40 handheld games (though a risky one with shrinking margins), what is the best kind of platform for selling titles in that market? I'm honestly not sure.
Re:Does it matter anymore? by DragonWriter · 2011-01-28 10:32 · Score: 1

I think the days are numbered for dedicated game machines when you can get Phones and tablets that will do games "good enough" for most and do much more besides.
I think Sony recognizes that the general-purpose mobile device market is becoming key to mobile gaming, which is they announced the Playstation Suite framework (initially for Android 2.3+, apparently with cross-platform mobile plans) at the same time that they announced the NGP.
Re:Does it matter anymore? by indiechild · 2011-01-28 20:58 · Score: 1

The crucial difference is that you're not going to see many A-grade games on the Android device.
Re:Does it matter anymore? by loufoque · 2011-01-28 23:13 · Score: 1

Have fun playing real games with a touchscreen. The most important thing in gaming is having a good controller.
Re:Does it matter anymore? by spire3661 · 2011-01-30 07:47 · Score: 1

And no buttons or Dpad to play any really good games. Stack a decked out Xbox 360 w/kinect against a low range PC, you get the same result. A comparison of apples and oranges.

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Good-bye

Yeah, I have to agree with this by default+luser · 2011-01-28 05:09 · Score: 2

Likely a lot less. These Android hardware specs were announced several months ago for up coming models. They are clearly running in parallel time tables. By the time the NGP is available, competing hardware with equal or superior specs will already be out for Android.
Only Apple is likely to be caught behind by this, but likely only one generational cycle at worst. So in the grand scheme, this is a complete non-news story.

Thanks to the explosion of Smartphones, Nintendo and Sony no longer have the edge in performance/watt in portable gaming. Since portable platforms are constrained mostly by power, this means any performance edge they enjoyed previously is gone now.

I'm really surprised that Nintendo didn't just jump on the bandwagon and go Tegra 2 (or some other standardized platform) - it would have reduced their own development costs, and guaranteed them good platform support and upgrades. Going with that ancient PICA200 GPU and their own CPU may make for a limited gaming experience, and at $249 MSRP, they can't afford that today.

I have a feeling Sony is going to make the same mistake with the NGP, and it's really all for nothing. Fab processes are the limiting factor these days in power consumption, so you might as well leverage an already efficient design from another company.

--

Man is the animal that laughs.
And occasionally whores for Karma.

Re:Yeah, I have to agree with this by sznupi · 2011-02-11 17:29 · Score: 1

Ultimately, batteries are the real limit. As Intel found out some time ago, when trying to promote "mobile Atom", fab process advances don't bring much nowadays.

At least Nintendo might have an "edge" here, in a way. They've shown both with DS and Wii that aiming for top performance doesn't matter ... while, at the same time, not chasing the sky seems to be hard for everyone else, including (especially?) smartphone makers. OTOH: "ancient" GPU / CPU of their liking, Nintendo keeping clock and voltages quite low - this way of minimizing power consumption still works, especially since there are some squares / nonlinearities involved (though announced 3DS times of battery don't look great, anyway; I guess it's bad everywhere; oh well, time to get that DS (yeah, I'm rarely in a hurry))

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One that hath name thou can not otter

Re:But can it make phone calls... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-01-28 05:47 · Score: 1

I work with id Tech 3 a lot (Quake 3 engine). It is far more flexible and powerful than most people realize and it's still capable of producing gorgeous visuals. id Tech 4 is id's last generation engine and it looks better than a lot of modern games. Go look up Brink on Youtube. I can't wait to see what he's done with id Tech 5.

As for open source, at last they've done it. How many other companies can you name who have opened the number of engines id has? Look at what kind of great stuff it's lead to (ie. Warsow, Alien Arena, Nexuiz, XReal, Wold of Padman, OpenArena, Smokin' Guns, Tremulous and on and on). Talk about biting the hand that feeds you.

Carmack irrelevant... by j00r0m4nc3r · 2011-01-28 05:51 · Score: 1, Troll

How is John Carmack relevant to games anymore, especially smartphone games or handhelds? Before you mod me flamebait, see if you can answer that question. See if you can find something he has worked on in the past 20 years that isn't a re-make of Doom or Quake, and that is somehow related to handheld devices. I'm not flaming, I just want someone to explain why what Carmack says has any importance anymore. Surely there are better people suited to making determinations about handheld devices...

Re:Carmack irrelevant... by McTickles · 2011-01-28 05:59 · Score: 1

I agree Carmack is less and less relevant.
Programmers still see him as a guru, but he is too busy with Armadillo Aerospace to share his programming ideas (plus he probably can't since Id Software got sold to Zenimax) like he used to on his .plan file.
I miss the .plan file.
Re:Carmack irrelevant... by Nemyst · 2011-01-28 06:19 · Score: 1

Rage HD?
It's probably one of the best-looking mobile games ever seen, right up there with Epic's Infinity Blade (some say even better).
You may not like Carmack saying that Sony's NGP is doing something better than Android/iOS, but he's still extremely relevant to the game development world. id tech 5 is currently looking like it'll surpass Unreal Engine 3 easily and even CryEngine 3, making it the most powerful multiplatform graphics/game engine on the market. Similarly, id's mobile engine is setting up to be a serious contender.
And John Carmack's behind a lot of this.
Re:Carmack irrelevant... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-01-28 10:10 · Score: 0

He just released a new game called RAGE for the iPhone that made a significant splash and a bunch of monies.
Re:Carmack irrelevant... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-01-28 11:41 · Score: 0

He has been working with the mobile space for years. Starting with Orcs & Elves in 2006, to the recently released RAGE Mobile.
Re:Carmack irrelevant... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-01-28 12:09 · Score: 0

http://www.google.com/search?q=carmack+portable+rage
Re:Carmack irrelevant... by non0score · 2011-01-28 14:09 · Score: 1

You're equating games to engine technology, and that's fundamentally the distinction that many people miss. Carmack doesn't make games, he makes game engine technology. Whether or not id can use that engine technology to its fullest to make their games is a completely different question. In terms of engine technology, Carmack is still good at finding low level insights and even high level algorithms. So that's why he's still relevant, even if people don't necessarily want to buy into his megatexture tech (there are huge trade-offs going down that path). And to answer your question about his relevancy to mobile games, remember that every ounce of performance you can extract means you can either pick between better battery life or more . And in that respect, that's why he's relevant. Besides, there's nothing that he said in the article that isn't true, him being relevant or not.
Re:Carmack irrelevant... by xpuente · 2011-01-29 00:40 · Score: 1

Sure, you only need to look and realize how many current games uses id-software engines. That's rigth... a lot!
Re:Carmack irrelevant... by robcozzens · 2011-01-29 01:11 · Score: 1

Because people recognize his name.
Re:Carmack irrelevant... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-01-29 07:27 · Score: 0

uh try rage on the iphone. just released.
Re:Carmack irrelevant... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-01-29 17:21 · Score: 0

Orcs & Elves for the DS.
Re:Carmack irrelevant... by spire3661 · 2011-01-30 07:49 · Score: 1

He made Orcs and Elves for the DS. A fairly well received game. When that came out is when he really started talking about mobile gaming.

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Good-bye

Except... by Maudib · 2011-01-28 05:58 · Score: 1

Except that none of us are buying Sony products anymore remember?

We shouldn't even pay attention to Sony related PR. Pretend they don't exist.

Re:But can it make phone calls... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-01-28 06:26 · Score: 0

The reason a 3G iPad can't do voice is because Apple doesn't want or can't handle Flash. If the 3G NGP model has Flash support in its web browser, there would be nothing stopping you from using Google Voice or Skype.

I don't care how fast it is by Anonymous Coward · 2011-01-28 06:58 · Score: 0

I don't care how fast it is how many cores it has or how many shaders it can push per second.

If the games are crap no one will buy it. If there are hardly any third party titles not many people will buy it.

Graphics don't make the game good. And make sure to secure third party publishers/developers so that you actually have a list of games larger than six.

As much as I like iPhone Games... by Itesh · 2011-01-28 06:58 · Score: 1

I find myself missing the use of physical buttons. Don't get me wrong, the iPhone is great for things like Angry Birds, Risk, etc, but I just find the lack of any physical buttons difficult for some other types of games.

Disclaimer; I own an iPhone, DS and PSP.

Re:As much as I like iPhone Games... by Itesh · 2011-01-28 06:59 · Score: 1

Forgot to add:
Sony NGP about to make you it's bitch?

Problem is. . . by Anonymous Coward · 2011-01-28 07:27 · Score: 0

. . .phones and tablets don't do games "good enough". They do games on the level of Minesweeper and Solitaire on the desktop -- amusing enough for non-gamers and people looking for a cheap and fleeting kick. The poor controls and ergonomics and the inability of the app market to support deep game development will inevitably hobble the game market for those devices.

Carmack's comment a jab at Apple's restrictive API by contrar1an · 2011-01-28 07:47 · Score: 1

The point of his comment was that Sony will expose low-level APIs, unlike Apple's prohibition of directly using the machine.

more than enough by DrYak · 2011-01-28 08:55 · Score: 1

touch-screen only toys, with terrible ergonomics that only support shallow, gimmicky games.

and for 99% of people out there,that's more than enough,as they only want a couple of casual games to kill some time while waiting for the bus / train. Or check their FarmVille while on the go. These people are already happy with anything like a Simon-interface, as long as it has shiny eye candy graphics and connects to facebook.

iphone and android smartphone are already doing well in this area and have the advantage to also work as a telephone,a PDA and a gps, while being subsidised.

for hardcore games, they already have an XBox 360 or a PS3 in the comfort of their living room allowing them to play in all the 1080p HD glory while lying on the couch.

and what is left between, on this markted, is already completely owned by nintendo. (thanks among other to a huge library of titles, a big amount of 3rd party developpers and some backward compatibility across generations of consoles)

sony will have a though time to position themselves in this generation of portable consoles. Unless they bundles it with EverCrack client, or cross licence a port of World of Warcrack. And have the device run an unlocked Android (but with the proprietary low level API extensions - on which Carmack is drooling - available only to signed applications) somewhat mimmicking the gameos/otheros situation of the PS3 (previously, TapWave's Zodiac has also gone this way, co

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"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]

Think small by DrYak · 2011-01-28 09:13 · Score: 1

Also, everyone claiming this thing is as powerfull as a PS3, can i have some of what you are smoking?

they won't because their joint is really really small. And they don't like to share it among too many people.

more seriously : the NGP's powerVR will have to power a screen which has less than a quater of what the PS3 drives (900x480 vs 1920x1080p). In addition to that, as said pixel are small, it's very likely that some eye candy will be turned down as it's unnecessary/unnoticeable). Last but not least, the technological jewell inside the PS3 is the Cell processor. The GPU is somewhat related to NVidida GeForce 7 generation (not even the unified sharders nor the massive SIMD of its successors).

So this exactly as true as the original claim that the PS3 could do Final Fantasy movie real time (true if you read the fine print saying "with lower res textures, lower polycount models, and less applied effects onto a standard definition TV")

--
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]

Re:Think small by Vectormatic · 2011-01-29 00:49 · Score: 1

thing is, the GPU is the only chip getting the benefit from the scaled down res/textures, stuff like physcis/AI still needs the same horsepower, and even though CELL is a bitch to program for, it undeniably has far more horse power then 4 arm cores at ~1 GHz

--
People, what a bunch of bastards

Re:But can it make phone calls... by Rinnon · 2011-01-28 11:30 · Score: 1

It's not a smartphone, nobody said it was.

Well ACTUALLY, Mr. Carmack decided he wanted to draw a comparison to Smartphones now didn't he? I was suggesting that comparing the NGP to Smartphones is pointless because the NGP lacks the very functionality that makes a Smartphone, a Smartphone. A better comparison would have been to the iPad itself. I have no idea how that got modded Offtopic. How dare I mention phones in a topic where TFA compares the NGP to Smartphones!

That one's easy... by RichiH · 2011-01-29 01:25 · Score: 1

The remakes of Doom and Quake have always been used to show off the newest engine and subsequently licence that to third parties.

And who is the mastermind behind these new engines?

That's why he still matters. A lot.

Oh, and also the fact that he tends to release the old stuff as FLOSS once he does not need it any more. Anyone else doing that?

Competing with smartphones?? by TheoMurpse · 2011-01-29 02:02 · Score: 1

"Carmack Says NGP Is a 'Generation Beyond' Smartphones"

Well, except for the "is a phone" part.

Breaking: The PS3 is generations ahead of all smartphones, too!

I have no idea how many people buy an iPhone just so they can play games, but it's likely not very many; I suspect more buy the phone because it can make calls (and play games and do other nifty stuff and everyone thinks it's cool).

Android I'm not so sure about. I literally do not know a single person who uses an Android-based phone (although I want to get one, if only ATT didn't hamstring their offering's functionality!).

Until a firmware update comes out... by Vandil+X · 2011-01-29 07:12 · Score: 1

...to remove/disable one or more bullet-point marketed features in the name of security and anti-piracy.

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Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, START

Screen : 5" by DrYak · 2011-01-31 02:22 · Score: 1

Physics:
Do you really think that, on a 5" screen, people will be able to distinguish between a full-world "spring-mass" physics system, and a few pre-rendered animations with some simple rag-doll approximations ?

Also, unlike the PS3's GeForce 7, the PowerVR 5 has modern unified shaders, meaning some acceptable OpenCL support (Imagination Tech are on the OpenCL board) so offloading computations could be done to the GPU (instead of Cell's SPUs, or instead to ARM's Neon).
And we're speaking of a modern PowerVR with a unified shader and a honking big SIMD under the hood vs. a GeForce which is not only several generation older - and that is a lot in the GFX world - but even a hardware paradigm older (it's an older pipe design with separate shaders), it might not be as powerfull as Cell's SPUs, but it is still capable enough for the basic kind of physics which is enough eye-candy on a 5" screen.

AI:
Same stuff - do you really expect a full scale strategy game with large armies of thousands each battling each other with complete realistic simulation of each unit ? If you really attempt this, this is going to look like a cloud of nervous flies on the 5" screen.

My gut feelings is that, when you have less screen estate and less inputs, you need to produce less content to show. That means directly less pixels to be computed on-screen. But also less behind-the-scene calculation to produce the content, because you would aim for simplier more casual games.
I would probably more expect LocoRoco-type of games, or at most an arcade oriented over-the-shoulder 3rd-person hack'n'slash game - albeit both with much better graphics than current PSP incarnations, rather than a full fledged StarCraft II-like game. It just better suits the form factor.

I do realistically think that the NGP could produce a similar "Wow" effect as the PS3 did when it arrived on the market, due to a combination of lower expectations for that platform/form factor and of more modern hardware available.

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"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]

Re:Screen : 5" by Vectormatic · 2011-01-31 02:30 · Score: 1

AI:
Same stuff - do you really expect a full scale strategy game with large armies of thousands each battling each other with complete realistic simulation of each unit ? If you really attempt this, this is going to look like a cloud of nervous flies on the 5" screen.
The PS3 has very few of these games either way, and you dont need RTS to bring this to the front. Dead Rising was an impressive game on the xbox 360 due to hordes of zombies on screen, then they 'ported' it to the wii, which could (even despite its much lower resolution) only handle about 4-5 zombies on screen at the same time, essentially turning the game into resident evil sans the scary bits.
Also, this is sony we are talking about here, they have a well documented history of overestimating their hardware power

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People, what a bunch of bastards

Re:But can it make phone calls... by iainl · 2011-02-07 00:53 · Score: 1

Ah, right. My mistake - I clearly missed the mention of a non-3G version. That's a relief.

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"I Know You Are But What Am I?"

Re:But can it make phone calls... by iainl · 2011-02-07 00:55 · Score: 1

But then, neither the iPod Touch nor iPhone can do Flash, and Skype works fine on both. They just didn't put a mic on the iPad, for whatever reason.

--
"I Know You Are But What Am I?"

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Carmack Says NGP Is a 'Generation Beyond' Smartphones

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