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Piracy Boosts Anime Sales, Says Japanese Government Study
An anonymous reader writes "A new study seems to confirm what a lot of the Slashdot crowd thinks, and the opposite of what the **AAs say: 'A prestigious economics think-tank of the Japanese government has published a study which concludes that online piracy of anime shows actually increases sales of DVDs. The conclusion stands in sharp contrast with the entertainment industry's claims that "illicit" downloading is leading to billions of dollars in losses worldwide. It also puts the increased anti-piracy efforts of the anime industry in doubt.' More specifically, '(1) YouTube viewing does not negatively affect DVD rentals, and it appears to help raise DVD sales; and (2) although Winny [a popular P2P program in Japan] file sharing negatively affects DVD rentals, it does not affect DVD sales.'"
Correlation does not imply Causation. They even mention this in the article.
This is a correlation. Misleading Title/Summary.
I pirated a documentary called "Eating," since it wasn't available to rent on Netflix and I didn't want to just buy it.
Well, while I never did buy the documentary, I did buy the book the book associated with it, that was written by the same guy that made the documentary. So yeah, if it weren't for piracy, that's a sale that never would have happened.
What's funny is I ended up putting the documentary on YouTube, with links to the guys website. However the creator of the documentary messaged me after a week, demanding I take it down. I complied, of course, but I know for a *fact* that he's losing out on sales and attention. Oh well.
I wonder if this is generally true or a special case.
Otaku are odd people. My kind of people – but still – not what I would call a representative example.
And from a western perspective – I hear the arguments about fan subs. Do they steal revenue? Do they help indentify shows that should be professionally dubbed and released. Or is it a non issue because the shows would never have been released? Probably a mixture of all 3.
Has anyone ever seen a decent study on this? Have not had the time to read the article.
due to the very large crowd of fansubbers and their fans. Almost universally, fansubbing groups place recommendations at the start/intercession/end of their subs urging their audience to buy the anime when it becomes licensed in their area. Many also suggest that everyone cease distribution of the series at that point as well.
Hard to say how many listen to that, but I know I've ordered box sets when they became available in my area, entirely because I was able to watch the fansubs and enjoyed the series and wanted higher quality and the extras they tend to ship with, and I know many others like me that way.
I'll hit up the anime fansubbing sites every week or two, and download a few eps of what's popular, and I go from there to decide what series I follow. It's too bad more things can't work that way normally.
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
But, for a permanent place in a collection, the better produced DVDs with extra content are much preferable. I buy the DVDs of the shows I like as soon as they are released. Pirated stuff isn't good enough to be a "keeper".
I'm not sure you can apply the idea to the typical US film being pirated by English speaking people.
There's a lot of anime which never get a US release, so the only way for non-Japanese speaking viewers to watch it is via "fansubbing" (which is a form of piracy).
In essence, the Japanese companies aren't really losing much as their target audience isn't outside Japan.
As for the Japanese, most of these early fansubs are just subtitles added to TV recordings, so they could grab the same content from TV for free.
Whether this affects US releases of the anime is another thing.
Piracy doesn't boost anything. It takes away jobs from well deserving people. I know because the RIAA told me so.
so what? Whether it's good or bad, it's still copyright infringement. The most this study could argue for is to encourage copyright holders to ignore piracy. It does not provide an excuse, or even a rationalization, for piracy. If you're looking for an ethical out, this isn't it.
It says nothing about the real problem with copyright, the continual extension of terms. Disney got rich copying from Mark Twain, Bros. Grimm, Aesop, etc., yet wants to prevent others from doing the exact same to them. THAT is the problem. As Lawrence Lessig has (unsuccessfully) argued, copyright exists to encourage the creation of works ("promote the progress of Science and the Useful Arts," in the US), and extending copyright on existing works does nothing to achieve that.
I have no problem with laws protecting IP for limited periods (relative to the useful lifetime - longer for philosophical works, shorter for technological ones), but I do have a problem with keeping those works from the public domain indefinitely.
"National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
Was it done by the Department in Charge of Gundam?
#DeleteChrome
You think U.S. fans would know what to expect from a title like Bakemonogatari is without having seen a fansub first?
Turns out that the aforementioned title is a popular romantic fantasy story about a young ex-vampire and the various supernatural girls he meets. Its title is probably best translated as 'Ghost Story'.
Despite the relative obscurity of both the story and the source material, It has a fairly strong U.S. fanbase that will likely make publishing a run of Region 1 DVDs profitable for both the Japanese and North American companies involved.
Without fansubs, that market simply wouldn't exist and everyone would miss out.
The next Slashdot story will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and slashdot the links early!
It has a fairly strong U.S. fanbase that will likely make publishing a run of Region 1 DVDs profitable for both the Japanese and North American companies involved.
You can say that but I suspect the fanbase is, like most show-specific fanbases in Anime, small, vocal, and won't hesitate to find any excuse to not buy.
The **AA doesn't want to sell CDs and DVDs any longer. They are too expensive. They are already making like 1000% profit, but those costs of publishing are eating into their ability to get even more money. They want to "sell" content that expires in a short time so that people have to buy it over and over and over again while at the same time, the publishers don't have to manufacture anything at all!
They want their money for nothing and having to spend money to make it is a highly limiting factor... the difference between limited and limitless.
This is what they want. Make no mistake about it. And as long as digital copies without limits and expirations, there will be perceived losses.
Turns out that the aforementioned title is a popular romantic fantasy story about a young ex-vampire and the various supernatural girls he meets... Without fansubs, that market simply wouldn't exist and everyone would miss out.
I don't think Americans being unexposed to what sounds like a Japanese version of "Twilight" qualifies as "everyone missing out."
There would be zero proliferation of Japanese animation in the western world, without the mass fansubbing era. The groups seem to be becoming satisfied with current pricing schemes by sites such as Crunchy Roll, so they have been showing due respect (call out to Dattebayo!). I myself am an avid watcher, though the chrunchy roll player is a bit dodgy. On linux, the player stops swapping in new frames if I interact with the browser functions (fullscreen, etc), which is why I would MUCH rather be able to download a high quality version and watch it from my own hd using a solid video player. Or at least provide feeds that we can watch with remote players like VLC (though I always prefer mplayer). The commercial world is still slagging behind technology.
Note: Fansubbing does not affect the sales of cheap bad anime. People will always buy bad cheap stuff, its in our nature. It only affects overpriced poorly adapted animations of respected manga. Even then, the affect is marginal as this article would make it seem.
The article specifically mentions Japanese releases and sales within Japan. I don't think fansubbing has any relevance in this specific case.
Thankfully, nothing in Anime, even the worst stuff, is as bad or as outright shitty as Twilight.
Oh and what's with the damned FIVE MINUTE DELAY between posts, Slashdot? Are you trying to kill the site?
The results of the study come at an interesting time. For years anime distributors where considered quite lenient towards piracy, but last week the American anime distributor Funimation announced lawsuits against 1337 alleged BitTorrent downloaders.
Wait, really?
He did a poor job of describing the show, it's nothing like Twilight. The vampire aspect is mainly used to explain why he knows about ghosts, demons, and other "aberrations". The romance is not overbearing and stupid like Twilight, it actually portrays a fairly healthy and normal teenaged relationship. The show is mainly about him helping others overcome their problems with ghosts and curses, with a sprinkling of amusing romance on top.
Personally I like to sample an episode or two before I buy a box set, but the quality of anime viewing on YouTube just sucks. Video is far too low bandwidth to be clean. But it's good enough for a preview to decide if you like the writing and voice acting.
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
I haven't really been into anime for the past 6 years or so, but back when I was into it I routinely bought things that I had watched previously for free, though typically it was through fansubs (which I imagine they're including as a type of piracy).
That's cause the OP is a twit that didn't actually watch the show...
Main guy isn't an ex-vampire, he is the living food dispenser for a depressed loli vampire. And most of the girls he meets aren't supernatural, they're possessed.
- These characters were randomly selected.
You ever watched MTV Cribs? Do you realize how much some of the cast of Jersey Shore gets paid per episode? 50,000. That's right. I have a degree in comp sci, 4 years of experience, worked with multiple languages in my job (yes, I know I am still new in the industry, don't ruin my story) and I make less than them a year and all they do is act retarded. The big companies can complain all they want, but if they are hurting so much for money, then stop paying Will Smith 20mill per movie. Pay him 100,000 since he has years of experience and call it a day.
What does this have to do with pirating Anime? I don't know. I like to rip into the *AA's at any chance I can get my mits on.
Because of Pirating I found out about Samurai Champloo, Lupin, Bubblegum Crisis (I think it is called that, I have seen 2 or 3 eps), Tri-Gun, Cowboy Bebop, and I now own the DVD's for most of them. I found out about some Anime movies through pirating as well (everybody knows about Akira regardless), but Voltage Fighters, X, Ninja Scroll. If it was not for piratting, I would have never bought these DVD's. I am not into the weird Japanese Anime version of Twilight stuff. Not my style kid, but yeah, yay for piratting since it openned my eyes to a bunch of mainstream anime I would not have known about previously
The world is how you make it
I don't know how anime is priced in the US, but here in Australia you would generally pay the same amount for a DVD with 3-4 episodes as you would for a complete season of any western show. Rather bizarre considering anime isn't made for the western market, per se. It's mostly just gravy. American publishers do a bit of translating and hire the worst voice actors possible (yeah, I'm being cynical, but I've been hurt so many times), and this costs several times more than million dollar western shows being made from scratch?
Not just expensive either, but also a massive waste of shelf space. Granted, the distributors eventually realised this and started to release them afterwards in smaller container box sets, but still on the same painful number of DVDs, making avi files on your computer so much easier. I mean, would anything actually compress better onto DVDs than anime episodes? Large areas of identical colour, minimal movement...
Without fansubs, certain series (*cough*Macross 7/Frontier*cough*) wouldn't even possibly be seen here, full stop.
I'm told that there are so many US copyright SNAFUs and licensing hurdles associated with the "Macross" title, that no Macross title aside from Plus and possibly the original can be distributed in the US unless people pay hundreds of dollars per disc.
Then there's the ADV Films licensing brouhaha not too long ago that locked away several series from the early 2000s until recently.
I would agree with the producers that they should be fairly compensated. But something must be done about media companies who either want total control or who want more money than anyone is willing to pay, and immediately hide behind the excuse of "piracy is ruining sales" whenever they're called on these.
"We are Microsoft. You shall be assimilated. Competition is futile."
WHAT new study? Where's the article link? What news organization?
Well, EXCUUUSE ME
/a/ is on a different website.
</SteveMartin>
First, how the hell is 'supernatural' not the same thing as 'possessed'? Y'wanna quibble on fine points or personal definitions?
Second, anyone who wants the long version of the story is more than welcome to click the link. I didn't feel the need to discuss the merits of loli-vampires, loli-snakes, the almost-entirely conversation-driven nature of the story, its light-novel origins, or even Studio Shaft's over-the-top psychedelic animation. This is a discussion on the merits of breaking copyright for the greater good.
If you want to pit Araragi-kun against Mr. Cullen, or want to talk shit on the story,
The next Slashdot story will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and slashdot the links early!
I'm a long-time anime fan. I collect merchandise. I attend conventions. I've been known to dress up at said conventions.
So why do I still pirate anime? Exposure. Plain and simple. Any idea how much a dvd box set costs these days? The majority of my favorite series have never aired on tv in the united states, and I'm constantly looking for new material.
On occasion, new anime series are described to me via word of mouth from friends in my area, acquaintances I see irregularly at conventions, and online acquaintances. Unfortunately, I can't (financially speaking) put enough stock in a friends recommendation to spend a big chunk of cash on a dvd box set, only to find out it SUCKS and I'm out a big chunk of the months entertainment fund. Moreover, actual recommendations are relatively few and far between, and the signal to noise ratio isn't the best by a long shot.
I primarily look into new series by checking out, say, the pirate bay, or kick ass torrents, or any number of other sites. In so doing, I can quickly and freely download the first 2-3 episodes of a series and give it a try. Not only can I specifically look for recommended series, I can find interesting series with a properly formed search query.
With zero exceptions thus far, if I like the series enough to continue watching past the third episode, I purchase at least one set of dvds, if not significantly more merchandise. In other words, the anime series that I don't contribute to fiscally are the ones that I don't watch. My purchases aren't even about supporting the creators of the work, it's pure avarice on my part. If I'm into it, I want all of it. If I'm not, I want none of it.
I have a number of friends who are the same way, more than one of which sold portions of their collection to pay for college- It's not that I can't imagine I'm alone, but I know firsthand that I'm not alone in my line of thinking. And insofar as my admittedly not statistically significant experience with anime fans has revealed, there are a significant number of anime fans who do just as I do.
Posted as AC for reasons that are obvious, extremely obvious, and not so obvious. In that order. Kthx.
Bakemonogatari is probably one of THE best animes to come out in YEARS. Instead of the large amounts of same forumla stuff that comes out constantly. It isnt another harem of girls falls in love with weakling guy kinda thing. The animation style is very unique.
Ironically, I still refuse to buy box sets of anime I love. 99.9% of the time the english dub versions they release are just plain bad and their subs are worse than fansubs. I find it hard to justify paying for something of lower quality than I can get legally (before its licensed in the US). I mean if they did a better job of the subs and dubs and released it along the same time as the Japanese version sure. I wouldn't hesitate to buy. But when all they are offering is lower quality stuff that I can't stand listening to... hardly gives any incentive to buy. Only anime I have a box set of is Hellsing because the dubs aren't total trash.
insert funny sig here
Piracy may boost the sales of niche markets, but that's not what the media industry cares about. Piracy definitely doesn't help the sales of movies like Pirates of the Caribbean. When everyone already knows about the movie, then the advertising potential that piracy offers doesn't help at all. In fact, if the media industry wants anything, it's control over their market. A zillion niche markets appealing to every audience imaginable is a threat to their 1 movie everyone has to buy business model. But then again, their one movie everyone has to buy business model is what makes 10k+ seeded torrents that download in 10min possible.
...is not Causation. Although I have no doubts, particularly when it comes to anime, that piracy may well be positive rather than negative at times, it is a VERY difficult thing to actually prove (or disprove).
Perhaps the original article proves you wrong.
Main guy isn't an ex-vampire, he is the living food dispenser for a depressed loli vampire. And most of the girls he meets aren't supernatural, they're possessed.
You do an even worse job describing the show. He WAS an ex-vampire, and he only used the loli-vampire as a way to strengthen himself physically in a single story arc of the show, other than that she's just a side-character whose history is left as more a mystery to the viewer. The girls aren't possessed in the classic sense except for Hanekawa and possibly Hitagi. Hachikuji isn't even human to start with. It's more like they're being harassed by spirits.
Really this show has more in common with Mushishi than Twilight.
You think U.S. fans would know what to expect from a title like Bakemonogatari is without having seen a fansub first
Yes they could get an idea by going to the link you pr
I love fansubs. Sheesh, I wouldn't of ever gotten into most the anime I have without it.
But besides getting new Anime fast with fansubs, there's another reason I like it better then dub versions.
American dub versions usually suck dog shit. They will dumb the plot down, change stuff to fit "american kids". Not cool with that.
Of course, i rely on the fansubbers to give me an accurate translation of what is said, which doesn't seem to always happen. But it's free, and I forgive them.
I have a buddy who likes dubs, but i think it's because he has crappy eyesight and can't read what the fansubs say. or public school education, so he can't read too good. never can tell. But he stuck back some years behind what i'm watching. He's talking like Naruto Shippuden (sorry for bad spelling) episode 63, and I'm talking like episode 200.
Okay, i'm going to bust some truth about me here. I'm not really a consumer. I've always been happy with copies of stuff. Music? I used to make cassette tape copies of my friends stuff. Mp3 just made it easier and more convient (and better copies, oddly enough) for me. Would I buy all that music? Hell No. I'm cheap.
Same for movies/video games/everything. If i can get it cheap, or free, count me in.
But that being said, i have a bunch of friend who have to own the item. They must own the DVD, or the CD, collectors edition? hell ya, they fork over the extra money for it. I don't know what's difference between them and me (besides probably $40k a year) because even when we were broke kids, they still had to own the shit.
And those peeps? I've introduced more Anime, music/movies to them over the years that they would of probably never found without me (until they have kids, lol) and my internet downloading ways.
In closing, I will say, thanks Fansubbers, you rock.
Oh, and this. What the fuck is up with all the god damn fluff episodes? Take bleach. You have a story. You then pause the current story, do some fillers, then do some back stories, start another mini story series, finally get back to the main story, start up some more back stories, throw in some fluff for good measure, then finally get back on the main story. wtf? And you tend to do that for other series, Bleach just seems to have it the worse. As an american who does NOT buy your stuff, please keep it on the stories please. thanks! =)
Be seeing you...
been saying it for years
Thanks to file sharing, I purchase more CDs
Thanks to the RIAA, I buy them used...
I used google translate and scrolled to the conclusion of the study. It does indeed say that despite youtube and torrent sites contributing to piracy of animated shows, sales have increased. Direct link to PDF of study.
Thats strange TF reported the summation as youtube & piracy do hurt rentals but boost dvd sales. Although they did say they got a third party translation.
This is a really good point. However, as someone else pointed out, the study seems to be talking about piracy in Japan affecting Japanese sales.
For me this is an even easier "duh". Japanese anime DVDs are ridiculously expensive. A single DVD (which might only hold 2 22 minute episodes) can be as much as $70 US. Nobody is buying these to watch them. They are buying them to have them. Downloading and burning a disk is *not* the same thing.
I once saw a an interview with Karl Lagerfeld . He was asked if knockoffs of his fashion designs affect his sales. He said his customers would never buy an imitation and that those who buy an imitation could never afford the real thing. He was completely unconcerned with knockoffs.
Recently a new Anime was just released called "Houkago Pureadisu" (After school Pleiades). It was released online. It is sponsored by Subaru and the main character's name is Subaru. While not a very good anime, I wonder if this kind of thing will become more common. I think it makes sense to use product placement to generate ad revenue and then distribute for free (without commercials). Well, nothing is stopping you from putting some ads on a download page as well. Again, it won't even make a dent in sales to people who simply have to have the authentic disc (which are the only people buying anime in Japan today).
No, it's us who are trying to kill the site.. ;)
While seeing word like 'fujoshi' in government study was kind of funny, I had to stop reading it after the author introduced something he calls 'voice actor/actress points variable". It's supposedly calculated from number of threads dedicated to voice actor/actress at 2chan. Seriously, he got to be joking.
niche markets
Anime hasn't been a 'niche market' since the 90s.
Azumanga Daioh is the even more pointed example of Fansubbing creating a market/buzz/whatever. When it appeared, it had _zero_ following by the commercial Anime sector-- because it has nothing that 'market' wanted: no mechs, no blatant fanservice, it wasn't the next GitS/Trigun/NinjaScrolls, etc., etc. Near to the end of the season though, there was a panic scramble to license it, because the unpretentious slice-of-life show was a huge hit with real anime fans.
Actually, it's more like the X-Files on an LSD trip, without Scully and replacing the "aliens" excuse with ghosts.
I'd recommend you give it a try, it's fun stuff. Besides, you'd only need to watch a single episode, while there's *some* sort of Myth Arc overall the formula is pretty constant so if you don't like it, there's nothing that'd make you change your mind later.
No problem is insoluble in all conceivable circumstances.
It's the same in the US.
Also in Japan.
Otaku are exploited much.
Maybe this is just correlation without causation, but perhaps this is related to how/why Japanese CDs are also more expensive than they are in the West.
That happens with the Japanese editions of CDs by Western artists, let alone stuff that's only available natively from Japan.
I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
No shit
i have recently made watching japanese animes my favorite pastime in between breaks during work. i find them especially hilarious and comedic. their comedic level ranks above the 'good' comedy series mainstream media produces.
im watching them from international sites, and since they are not copyrighted, there is no problem.
however, what i am not able to understand is, why the anime studios are not putting up these videos up in their websites with subtitles, offering paid membership with a reasonable rate to everyone. i, for one, would easily subscribe for such a service. but, if i didnt start regularly watching anime from pirate sites, i wouldnt even be interested in such a service probably.
but anime studios are still trying to stick to the shitty old distribution models over monopoly tv syndicates. that time is long past. the reach is too little that way, and it also limits their liberties with their material A LOT.
Read radical news here
I was in LOVE with this series back then. I was like a trekkie geek for it. I watched it whenever I could get access to it on TV, played the RPG, bought the cheap Japanese knockoff toys, etc. But, because of downright extortion by Palladium games charging $10 dollars per EPISODE I never got to see the whole series when I was a big fan. I knew of networks of people trading anime back and forth, but I never went through with getting VHS tapes mailed to a fellow fan.
Finally, about 5 years ago I found the series for the dirt cheap price of $15 plus shipping for all the DVDs and got to see all the episodes for the first time. I don't know my point since I'm against downloading content and not paying the artists, but back then there wasn't much of a choice. I imagine there still isn't much access for fans today.
I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
I like trying before I buy because I have been screwed too many times. I made the mistake of buying Gothic 4 recently, there are too many bugs in that game to make it enjoyable.
I downloaded Morrowind, I downloaded Oblivion, I downloaded OFP Dragon Rising, I downloaded Arma 2. After I played them in release state, I loved them so much I bought them, and any and all expansions for all of them!
What does this tell us? It tells us that if the developers, or movie producers make a great product, customers will buy it. If they create garbage (Should have put a ring on it, and be careful what you wish for DUN DUN DUN because you just might get it), then obviously you can not blame the customers who put food on your table for not buying it. Put some effort into your work, and you will be rewarded!
i might just play devil's advocate for a second and point out that anime really is not representative of the entire market,
anime fans actively collect anime. they'll download to see if the show is good, then buy up the whole series, plus merch, plus dress up and go to cons, plus buy the re-issues, the re-re-issues, and the blu-ray (that's an up-res of the re-re-issue DVD master), and then the reconstruction when it comes out.
these results and this market do not translate to the stuff that the **AAs pump out, where a fan will download to see if it's worth keeping... and then nothing more will happen.
* disclaimer: i work in distribution.
You think U.S. fans would know what to expect from a title like Bakemonogatari is without having seen a fansub first?
Turns out that the aforementioned title is a popular romantic fantasy story about a young ex-vampire and the various supernatural girls he meets. Its title is probably best translated as 'Ghost Story'.
Despite the relative obscurity of both the story and the source material, It has a fairly strong U.S. fanbase that will likely make publishing a run of Region 1 DVDs profitable for both the Japanese and North American companies involved.
Without fansubs, that market simply wouldn't exist and everyone would miss out.
You're doing it a disservice if you don't mention the comedy. I would describe its genre as supernatural - there's not that much romance in it (just a few episodes). The comedy is interwoven throughout, and thrives mostly due to the dialogue (which can still be appreciated even when translated). That said, the article specifically considered sales within Japan.
Most human behaviour can be explained in terms of identity.
Haha. What a ridiculous study. Piracy torched DVD sales and I can speak with authority on the subject because I was in the biz for years. People don't pay for things they can get for free in any kind of appreciable number that really matters. That's why so many people lost their jobs in the industry (myself included!). What would happen is a DVD would come out and somebody would put it up online and then the sales would stop because (most) people want it for free. All of a sudden there's not as much money coming in so they lay off the shipping people, accounting people, voice actors, sales, production and then they close the doors. I know people use all sorts of things to justify their actions but at the end of the day if they can get it for free that's what they are going to do. There's no money in Netflix either for the studios that are left. It's just a bad business just like manga. Everybody should be thankful that there's plenty of product already made because when the investors don't make their money back on shows and books they quit producing them. We're all going to be watching re-runs in a couple of years!
...if it were even available on DVD in this country (Region 2).
I have a copy on VHS I got at a car boot sale for 50p, but it just isn't available anywhere on DVD (someone prove me wrong??!) so I've resorted to downloading a low-res DivX version instead.
(I am referring to the '80s FIST OF THE NORTH STAR movie, not the remake series btw...)
Except, it hasn't been licensed, and it won't be, because there is a perception that all the fans who would buy it just pirated it instead.
A story about a monster?
Remove the Region part and the rest of the world could also see it without the need of piracy or other 'illegal' methods.
Or is there any reason to exclude e.g. Australia?
Many copyright infringements are due to these region codes.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
Funimation announced lawsuits against 1337 alleged BitTorrent downloaders.
Its title is probably best translated as 'Ghost Story'.
Or maybe... Ghostory ..
since the original japanese name was the fusion of bakemono and monogatari
... any number of studies to sway the lizard brains that predominate within the legal offices of the **AA. They live by the phrase "don't try to confuse me with the facts".
CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M