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Tolkien Estate Censors the Word "Tolkien"
An anonymous reader writes "Following their recent attempt to censor a work of historical fiction containing Tolkien as a character, the estate have now issued a takedown notice to someone making buttons with the words 'While you were reading Tolkien, I was watching Evangelion' on them, claiming 'intellectual property right infringement.' Predictably, a new store has appeared offering a range of censored Tolkien items, and the 'offending' product has had vastly increased exposure as a direct result of the removal."
Apparently, the filter won't allow me to repeat Tolkien's name more than a few times in a row.
Filter error: Too much repetition
Didn't know slashdot caved, too.
vos nescitis quicquam, nec cogitatis quia expedit nobis ut unus moriatur homo pro populo et non tota gens pereat.
After death, lawsuits.
Yo dawg, I heard you like Tolkien, so I [DMCA'd]
It's not like the author played a big role in the censored story, though. It seemed like he was just thrown in to be there. Like, you know, a Tolkein character.
Can we please get off this hobby horse? The Tolkien estate isn't "censoring speech," it's protecting its trademarks, which it is required to do by law. If this guy had made a bunch of buttons for himself and as many of his friends as wanted them (all three), nothing would have happened. Instead he set up a store on Zazzle and tried to sell them. Zazzle has a clear policy that it will not sell items that violate copyrights, trademarks, or other intellectual property. These buttons do that. So the Tolkien estate complained, this guy's product was pulled, end of story. He wasn't sued, he wasn't thrown in jail -- in fact, he can still go buy a button maker and make himself some buttons and nothing would happen to him. The idea that he's being "censored" is silly, and there are lots of companies that are far more litigious about such things than the Tolkien estate.
Breakfast served all day!
Will you lot stop mumbling. I can't make out what you're tolkien about.
Tolkien a Tolkien b Tolkien c Tolkien d Tolkien e Tolkien f Tolkien g Tolkien h Tolkien i Tolkien j Tolkien k Tolkien l Tolkien m Tolkien n Tolkien o Tolkien p... I dunno, perhaps you just gotta multitask a bit more.
If the name Tolkien is Tolkien's imaginary property, that would mean that Tolkien made up the name. Wikipedia's page on Tolkien claims that JRR didn't made up the name.
So, Tolkien Estate is trying to "steal" imaginary property? Isn't that illegal?
He would slap the hell out of his entire family for pulling this kind of crap.
Way to honor the memory of your author ancestor.. By being a douchebag.
To be honest I cant see the issue, it's a simple case of copyright infringement and the rights holder doing what they legally have to do (don't forget if you don't protect your rights under US law you lose it). Suing when Tolkien is used in a historical context is pushing the limits though.
The fact that you think a name should be trademarkable is nuts. I have a last name, should I have the ability to ban anyone else from using it to gather money? This lawsuit is insane.
Are they suggesting that the fictional Tolkein is a marketed as a real author, or that the real Tolkein is a fictional character?
Because your legal name is a fact, and people can talk about you all they want.
Trademarking names only works when it is not really your name. In that case, they'll have to say his legal name to show some chain of ownership regarding this supposed trademark. And then we can start fixing the references to him.
But in any case, they would have to argue that a reasonable person would be confused and think that the fictional Tolkein was really Tolkein.
Go to Japan this summer and drop by the Tokyo Big Sight convention center. If you go at the right time, you might run into Comiket, the world's largest convention, with a million attendees and over 30,000 groups (circles) selling merchandise, such as comics, video games, and music. For three days, millions of pieces of human culture trade hands.
The vast majority of this merchandise infringes copyright.
Yet the world is far better off for it existing -- even the companies whose copyright it infringes. Most companies have long ago realized that this is a massive, massive boon to their profits. Some companies have explicitly started to leverage this power, with franchises like Vocaloid making ridiculous amounts of money.
Meanwhile, in the West, we sue over buttons containing the names of long-dead public figures.
I can hardly believe that nobody has mentioned how much of a Streisand Effect this is creating. Everything the estate does to stop people from tolkien about Tolkien just further advances their 'problem'. It's like their lawyers are trying to troll them.
Wait. That's it. The lawyers for the Tolkien estate are creating these debacles simply to stay employed. Each one just creates another opportunity for them to capitalize on.
I'm Tolkien to you!
Butt Head Fantasy Author
Is anyone surprised? Christopher tried his hand at continuing his fathers legacy but despite turning anything written by his father be it incomplete manuscripts or scribbles on a napkin into publishing deals he has shown he is nothing but a pale shadow...milking his fathers legacy is all he has left.
Just because of this stuff, I am going to make sure that Tolkien is a character in the next thing I write where it would even make sense. I'm thinking my "steampunk alt-history retelling of WWI" project would benefit from a certain Second Lieutenant's appearance...
There once was was a man named Tolkien. He was nuts, and I don't care about him or his stupid family of bullies who misuse and abuse DMCA take-down notices. The End.
The preceding was a work of fiction which sprung purely from my imagination. As such, any similarity to actual events or persons is strictly coincidental. Now give me $5 since your read my book and probably enjoyed it.
This is a hacked account, for which the owner can not be held responsible.
Now that's...
*sunglasses*
what I'm Tolkein about.
This is like legally harassing someone not for making a T-shirt that said "I'm Kirk" on it, but instead said "I'm William Shatner."
It's just a simple repetition filter for any string. You'd have the same trouble typing in " Ha " too many times.
But from the Estate's point of view, they've just found a cheap form of advertisement. It costs them little to start an action like this and then everyone gets into it and, before you know it, everyone's discussing Tolkien again.
Original:
from here
It's one thing for an author to make a living off of his work and creativity and another for their kids and grandkids to become "trust fund" babies because of that work.
We need to go back to the original law to encourage folks to write and become professional writers. Just look around the web, we really need more professional writers. Which means, I completely disagree with everyone who wants to eliminate Copyright or any other IP law for that matter completely.
Does this mean me or my son will get sued for copyright infringement?
sysadmins and parents of newborns get the same amount of sleep.
So they wouldn't like my fake band name: Tolkien Heads?
(Background: I enjoyed making fake band names combining something from fantasy or science fiction with a real band name, like Jefferson Starship Troopers)
I do hope that their royalty cheques stop flowing due to this.
Publisher: "Sorry, Junior, cannot use the word 'Tolkien' anymore, so your royalty cheques are being put in escrow."
One can dream...
actually i may or may not have just Tolkiened. But im not so sure after leaving the Tolkien and coming to the living room. I stopped by the kitchen to Tolkien my Tolkies, but the Tolkien setting was not on par with the Tolkiness of the situation.
.....
So i think i Tolkiened my Tolkies
Or, 'imaginary property' rights may have hit rock bottom, and the heirs of a person who tried to share positive and enlightened principles through fiction may have foaming at the mouth out of their base, despicable greed.
Read radical news here
Let them have their wish. Don't mention the name, the books, the characters or their world. Perhaps the next generation of geeks can grow up without that overrated source of computer names.
It's just a simple repetition filter for any string. You'd have the same trouble typing in " Ha " too many times.
But from the Estate's point of view, they've just found a cheap form of advertisement. It costs them little to start an action like this and then everyone gets into it and, before you know it, everyone's discussing Tolkien again.
True but it seems they have about as much need to advertise as say, McDonalds (yes, I note that McDonalds still airs commercials...).
Tolkien is as well-known among people who read books as McDonalds is visible since there's one on every street corner.
It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
I am Tokien. No, I am Tokien... etc. Now we can get sued by the Tolkien estate, and whoever wrote Spartacus.
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
Look, I don't really agree with the position, assuming the summary is representing it correctly - but what's with this particular submitter's morbid obsession with how the Tolkien estate is pursuing their purported intellectual property (or publicity) rights? Was he hoping to sell a line of Bilbo blow-up dolls?
#DeleteChrome
Eg: http://www.123people.com/s/tolkien that turns up Tolkiens by the page full — do you think that some of them might have something to say about their name being grabbed by the estate of an author — even if he was a good one ?
you Eskimos are all alike.
Wow, for the first time in generations it looks like nerds face a challenge they might actually be up to.
You don't censor criticism and mere mention.
What every t......n fan should do, now, is give them what they want: never mention the crazy old coot or his hillbilly descendents ever again.
That shit was rotting your brain, any way. Learning enough about middle earth to make reading the books worthwhile is equivalent to several college courses, only fewer people want to employ you if you mention your intimate knowledge of middle earth languages, history, and geography. Pssst -- its lame.
These reclusive and obviously business- and politics-retarded layabouts are giving you the challenge, now, to quit suckling fantasy and engage more in reality. NO, not by mastering a dungeon with your dice and pencil friends. NO not by taking a degree in Harry Potter instead.
Just walk away from the dumb shit, and never look back. You'll be able to say, "I did this really adult thing, once."
"Stratigraphically the origin of agriculture and thermonuclear destruction will appear essentially simultaneous" -- Lee
Congratulations to the Tolkien Estate, on ensuring that I will never again spend money on anything that has the slightest chance of putting a penny in your grubby mits.
I'll have the Tolkien, Tolkien, Tolkien, Tolkien, Tolkien, Tolkien, Tolkien, Lewis, and Tolkien.
Hoist Number One and Number Six.
It's now forbidden to be tolkien about Tolkien?
54 4f 4c 4b 49 45 4e
While you were reading Tolkien®, I was watching Evangelion
Or if it's not registered...
heck add a little footnote:
*Tolkien isn't the name of an author it is a trademark owned by The Tolkien Company.
You were tolkien a little funny there.
And besides, everyone knows that JRRT wasn't smokin no joints. He used a pipe for Iluvatar's sake.
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
Tolkien's heirs need to have their necks introduced to a guillotine. Their behavior is precisely the sort that resulted in revolutions of the past. Their behavior makes Sauron seem like a nice guy by comparison.
I understand that lawyers are expensive, but this one would require about 30 seconds of analysis. IANAL, but can't they also get compensated for that 30 laywer seconds for such an obviously retarded waste of time?
... also, I can kill you with my brain.
tolkien ring error?
Imagination drew in bold strokes, instantly serving hopes and fears, while knowledge advanced by slow increments...
Barbara Striesand Effect anyone?
Tolkien Tolkien Tolkien Tolkien Tolkien Tolkien Tolkien Tolkien Tolkien Mushroom! Mushroom! Tolkien Tolkien Tolkien Tolkien A SNAKE! A SNAKE! Oh it's a snake!
Whose name won't be uttered.
There's nothing wrong with 'Eye Pee' law! Nothing. Next week, I'm going to copywrite the words 'the', 'it', 'and' and the letters 'E' and 'S'. You are all on notice! I'm open to licensing, say 20 dollars per use, with only 2 dollars per use for book publishers and newspapers. Internet sites will be on a per-click basis. Piracy will not be tolerated! Pay me or be a crimminal. Also, you won't be allowed to use these words in speech. You will all have to find alternatives.
But I don't want any Tolkien!
Look Tolkien is a last name...J.R.R. is not the only one in the world with it. While not a popular surname, it is ridiculous when such a thing is considered intellectual property. His Parents gave it to him...not a registrar. I'm sure the late John Ronald Reuel Tolkien would not be entertained by his families obvious stupidity. Now if the estate wanted to make a big deal because someone came out with the Bilbo Dildo...that I could see...
Estate of Tolkien keen on tolls? /Tolkien troll :)
Life is like gravity. It sucks you down.
Nah, he's been tolkien too much of the good shit.
The Tolkien estate that is.
Tolkien blues
Tolkien blues
Your feet is just to big for you shoes..
I expected this sort of Tolkien resistance...
switch to an Ethanimus connector, handed down to man by Metcalfe himself! also David Boggs, Chuck Thacker and Butler Lampson.
Never say never. Ah!! I did it again!
best response to a "nigger" troll post in the history of ever
As said below but not clearly enough, the usage of the classifier Tolkien for Elves is to seperate human style civilized elves from the Santa's helpers or fairy folk. It has NOTHING to do with Tolkien having invented them, merely that this type is most easily identified with his work. SAME as that when a movie uses realistic space travel we claim it more 2001 then Star Wars.
People like to put labels to things to make it more clear to other people of the same culture. For instance, fire engine red isn't a color and not all fire engines are red but you know what intensity of red I mean nonetheless.
Tolkien is a name with no particular selling power anymore. Nothing new is produced by Tolkien for some time, probably because he is death. There shouldn't even be a trademark involved. Imagine if other companies did the same. Everytime you say you made a xerox on a canon, your ass would be sued off in stead of copied.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
I have no problem with laws allowing the Tolkien estate to prevent someone from publishing "Gutter Sluts by JRR Tolkien" and using the 4-letter symbol on the cover. Being able to deny someone the privilege of even USING the name in another context? That's wack, yo.
No I saw this before, but it was Nasty Hobbitses. They be nasty yo.
Where would we be if people weren't publishing things like that? A poorer place indeed. I support reducing copyright / patents / trademarks.
It begs questions like "why can't you do that too" so they call them Uncle Tom.
I think you mean "it raises the question".
So Tolkien was in the outhouse having sex with his mother...
(The Supreme Court already ruled on this one, Estate. Sorry.)
It's n..... pidgin because after 200 years in this country they STILL can't speak English.
Actually, it's worse than that. You see, the black leaders of yesteryear DID speak english very well. And they encouraged their children, and everyone else of their race, to do the same. Even in the 1980s and 1990s you had leaders like Bill Cosby and Whoopi Goldberg who knew that speaking properly and becoming educated were critical to the success of black children.
But you also have people like the gang leaders, Louis Farrakhan, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton - the race and poverty pimps who thrive on deliberately keeping blacks uneducated and afraid of "the man" and ensuring that they will vote in whatever way Jesse/Al tell them to vote. The people who insist on dressing up racial separatism as "keeping it real."
It's sad. George Washington Carver, Martin Luther King Jr, Langston Hughes, Charles Hamilton Houston, Harry Belafonte, Carter G. Woodson, Mary Bethune, Paul Robeson, James Baldwin, Adam Powell Jr, Booker T. Washington, Frederick Douglass, Thurgood Marshall, W.E.B. Dubois - they would all be appalled beyond measure at the behavior of those who behave like this.
But that's not got *much* Tolkien in it...
Caveat Emptor is not a business model.
I think you mean "it demands the question". But beyond that you should have said that you think they meant "It demands questions".
Most people hate the Tolkien estate. Copyright was made to encourage creativity. The Tolkien estate is the best example of how copyright law is used to stifle it instead.
In an ironic twist, Tolkien's heirs were later devoured by creatures from H. P. Lovecraft's open sourced mythos.
What if you say Tolkein instead?
The writer Tao Lin wrote a novel called "Richard Yates" which features Hailey Joel Osment as a main character. What gives, family of J.R.R.?
Well, the intellectual property laws exist misuse of a company's name or product name. For example, to keep another company from making a product with the same name as your product in order to cut into your sales and trick customers. Imagine a world where anyone could claim their name was Coca-Cola, it would financially have ruined Coca-Cola. A world like that would quickly deteriorate in the output of creative and original works, ideas, inventions and products, because no inventor, author or manufacturer would ever be able to secure their own sales of their own products and the power of their own brand.
So, I guess what I'm saying here is, I disagree with you. These particular laws exist for a reason.
Now, granted I'm not for the Tolkien Estate going after people for punditry or parody, those are fair use. Earlier in the week when they went after a fellow for writing a historical parody that included Tolkien himself as a character, that was fair use and should be protected, the Tolkien estate was in the wrong there. However, in this particular instance, where someone is using their trademark on the face of a button to promote their product. That's a bit underhanded and the Tolkien estate had the right to go after him for this.
He could have instead written, "While you were reading a book about elves, hobbits and one-rings... I was watching Evangelion." And, he would have been okay. That's just my two cents.
One Estate to rule them all,
One Estate to find them,
One Estate to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.
You have a problem with that, WORD PIRATE??
You know the more free advertising you do for Tolkien's work like that, the more money the estate makes, which might not be quite the spiteful effect you had in mind there. This is reverse-psychology-streisand-effect, or something like that.
Tolkien who?
---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
I thought the game started with knock knock, who's there? :)
Never antropomorphize computers, they do not like that
..did not use his right name or allow it to be spoken. Full marks to the Estate for following in his footsteps.
'Tolkien Tolkien Tolkien Tolkien Tolkien Tolkien Tolkien Tolkien Tolkien Mushroom! Mushroom! Tolkien Tolkien Tolkien Tolkien A SNAKE! A SNAKE! Oh it's a snake!'
Careful, they're already suing over this:
http://www.weebls-stuff.com/toons/special+edition/
Making it worse? How can it be worse? Tolkien! Tolkien! Tolkien!
Are you sure of Whoopi "I know it wasn't rape-rape" Goldberg?
So they issued a takedown notice. If we want to change these draconian procedures, now is the time for the organization to challenge it in court. That's really the only way it's going to change and takedown notices will cease. Otherwise, if they cave in like so many other people and organizations, then the "Tolkien" people will continue to issue takedown notices. Unfortunately, to fight it, the person has to have the money, the will and the desire to overturn what, in my opinion, is wrong. But my opinion means nothing as long as the people who have actual cause back down every time there's a challenge. Not that I blame them, but until some legal challenging authority steps in, like an ACLU, this sort of thing is going to continue to happen because they're using their clout of wealth and prestige to push their unilateral control of whatever they deem to be the law.
Sarbonn's blog: http://www.sarbonn.com/blog
As other posters have pointed out, this is NOT censorship, it's copyright protection. Government's censor. This is an overzealous IP owner. That's not the same as censorship.
This is not how copyright works!
The result of this re-appraisal was the publication in 1999 of The Last Ring-bearer - a re-thinking of Tolkien's story in real-world terms. Dr. Yeskov, a professional paleontologist whose job is reconstructing long-extinct organisms and their way of life from fossil remnants, performs essentially the same feat in The Last Ring-bearer, reconstructing the real world of Tolkien's Arda from The Lord of the Rings - the heroic tales of the Free Men of the West written in that world. We have a pretty good idea how well heroic tales map to reality from our own world.
The work was published with great acclaim in Russia and Europe, but no attempt was made at publishing in the US due to the litigiousness of the Tolkien family. It is available as a free download in both the original Russian and in English .PDF at Live Journal
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
...I imagine that anybody using the lowercase word 'white' can be sued by the estate of e.b. white, no?
Sounds like too much tolkien and no action!
Careful now they will send the gnomes and dwarves after you for copyright infringement
They should sue over the original movie scene. Elves indeed!
Here's what started the conversation:
No it wasn't. Copyright is intended to benefit the public. It's not supposed to be balanced or equal. It should produce the greatest possible net public benefit. If authors also happen to benefit, then I guess that's nice, but it's not important.
You basically spent several paragraphs expressing an agreement with the poster who did in fact say:
Copyright is there to allow for benefit of its creator, first and foremost. In exchange for societal contributions the works may provide, society then benefits later.
I guess he or she should have quoted the full bit, then you might not have wasted so much time.
But I don't agree.
Copyright is there to benefit the public. That's the whole point. Whether or not an author benefits, and if so how much, is secondary, and merely a means to an end. The public doesn't care about authors -- it cares about the creative works that are the output of authors. If we could get works without needing the necessary evil of authors, that would be peachy.
-- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
is do not buy anything with the name To*kien associated with it. Until we get this figured out, it's just too risky. Has /. gotten it's takedown notice yet? An awful lot of that name on this page, and given that /. has ads, and presumably makes money off them, its not impossible that they are infringing on the property rights of the estate of the name which may not be mentioned.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
Here, let me fix that title for you.
Now, all we have to do is convince ALL the online book stores and movie sites to remove that T* word from ALL their ads and reviews.
I'm sure that'll make the T* Estate happy, now won't it?
Oh, and if you haven't figured it out yet: T* Estate == morons
Tolkien Tolkien Tolkien Tolkien Tolkien Tolkien Tolkien Tolkien Tolkien Mushroom! Mushroom! Tolkien Tolkien Tolkien Tolkien A SNAKE! A SNAKE! Oh it's a snake!
Look at him now, it's Magical Tolkien,
He's havin' a show, they're packin' the folk in,
And in due course, disappearing a dwarf
Where is the dwarf? Hidden of course!
Takin' a bow, it's Magical Tolkien,
His assistant's an elf, he ain't no Vulcan,
Look at him there with his leathery, leathery whip,
it's made of Hobbit,
and with a little flick
Yeah, yeah, yeah, the dwarf is back,
Yeah, yeah, yeah, the dwarf is back,
Back, back, back from his magical journey...
What did he see, in the parallel dimension?
He saw nine fell kings on their fell steeds,
Seeking the One Ring, doing evil deeds,
Across the land, doing their dark lord's bidding...
Bow-ties are cool.
Sounds like too much tolkien and no action!
Let's face it, folks: you can't Tolkien outta anything!
Bow-ties are cool.
You know the more free advertising you do for Tolkien's work like that, the more money the estate makes, which might not be quite the spiteful effect you had in mind there. This is reverse-psychology-streisand-effect, or something like that.
I guess the best response would be to sell all your Tolkien books into the used market.
more 2001 then Star Wars
THAN.
Actually, 2001, then Star Wars makes kind of a nice double-feature. 2001 provides the substance, while Star Wars, with its more light-hearted, whimsical approach, helps take the edge off after all the seriousness of 2001.
Bow-ties are cool.
....How Professor Tolkien would have felt about his works being the property of a pack of bean-counting ambulance chasers?
:\
Regards;
You can disagree all you like - but you continue to flatly wrong so long as you continue that line of thought.
Copyright, first and foremost, is designed to benefit the author for a period of time. After which, it then is received by the public for the good of all. Without the former, there will almost never be the later. You're argument actually harms the public good by destroying it before it can even be created.
Even the quotes you provide completely validate what I'm saying (as others have pointed out) and invalidates you're own position.
Even if the buttonmaker could challenge the Tolkien estate in court (he can't, because there's no suit and they sent a C&D to Zazzle, not him. He could try a suit for tortious interference, I suppose), if he won the only consequence is he'd be able to make buttons. There would be no punishment to the estate for their abuses. So they'd continue issuing these C&Ds.
Sorry dude, but seems to me that everything you quoted was in concordance with the other guy. It's like you were arguing past each other, saying the same thing, just in different ways. You're really in agreement on the foundations and you should work from there, instead of trying to find ways to quibble over nothing.
I might have cared for those, but I just got bored over the pontificating.
Speaking for myself though, I consider rewarding people for their labor to be a desirable good, not a necessary evil.
Just curious how many dropbox referrals did you manage to get off your sig?
12.
If I could actually get a decent website to promote myself (with ads of course) I'd do that.
Can you dig it?