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Senators To Apple: Pull iPhone DUI-Check Alerts

CWmike writes "Four US senators on Tuesday called on Apple to yank iPhone and iPad apps that help drunken drivers evade police, saying the programs are 'harmful to public safety.' The CEO of the company that makes one such app said the senators' demand was 'a knee-jerk reaction.'" Hugh Pickens points out that "Similar apps are available for the iPhone and RIM. Apple released a set of App Store guidelines in September that spells out what apps are and are not allowed to do. Included on that list of 'don'ts' are 'apps that encourage excessive consumption of alcohol or illegal substances, or encourage minors to consume alcohol or smoke cigarettes.'"

348 comments

  1. typical garbage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Don't we have country with a deficit problem...wars? There are bigger problems....this highlights what is wrong with our country. That app does not encourage anything...it's just a tool....jesus christ..wait, I'm not religious. Fuck.

    1. Re:typical garbage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I would say this post highlights what is wrong with our country a lot more than the Senators request. "We should completely ignore Problem X because Completely Unrelated Problem Y is more important is a fucking retarded argument, and making it only proves that you lack the slightest understanding of how the world works.

    2. Re:typical garbage by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 2

      Bigger problems are hard to solve and may involve controversy, or even taking one for the team by endorsing an unpopular solution. That sucks.

      Saving the children from drunk drivers and Supporting Our Police, on the other hand, is easy and nearly risk free!

    3. Re:typical garbage by mwvdlee · · Score: 1

      If you remember to check you iPhone before getting in the car, you're not drunk enough.

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      Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
    4. Re:typical garbage by bcmm · · Score: 1

      Wars? Seriously? Traffic accidents kill substantially more americans than current wars.

      --
      # cat /dev/mem | strings | grep -i llama
      Damn, my RAM is full of llamas.
    5. Re:typical garbage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I know you jest, but just in case someone (a non-drinker?) doesn't get it: that's just not true. You can still be very very rational and in "problem-solving mode" long after you've already crossed the line into impaired physical reflexes.

      If you don't remember to check your phone for where the checkpoints are, you're not merely drunk; you're shitfaced.

    6. Re:typical garbage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      DUI fines are a huge source of revenue for the city/state governments. That's why when you get a DUI, you don't go to jail for more than the night you're caught. It's the same reason we have the War on Drugs.

  2. No boobs by unixcrab · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Apple's puritanical censors don't allow boobs in the app store but have no problem with apps like this? Someone's moral compass is a bit wonky...

    1. Re:No boobs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Sounds fairly typical for America.

    2. Re:No boobs by gandhi_2 · · Score: 5, Funny

      It is the moral declination.

      Depending on where you are, the difference between grid moral and magnetic moral can be quite significant. In my area, the GM angle is like 13.5 degrees.... if I don't account for that, I can easily get morally lost.

    3. Re:No boobs by dogmatixpsych · · Score: 0

      In that same vein, let's get rid of the internet because it could be used for illegal activities. Or, maybe Apple and Google could pull their browsers because those can be used for morally questionable or illegal activities.

      Those apps can be used for completely legitimate activities, just because they could be used for something that's illegal or even just morally questionable isn't a great reason for pulling them from the App Store (and other marketplaces for mobile apps). Maybe the apps are geared towards specifically helping drivers avoid DUIs but I can't say without looking at all of them.

      Apple's not allowing nudity in apps is one thing, these types of apps are a completely different matter. Yes, maybe it does expose some inconsistencies with Apple's process but that also might depend on whether you agree or not with Apple's stance against apps that contain nudity. You can access all the nudity and porn you want (unless it uses Flash) from your iOS product, just not directly in an app.

    4. Re:No boobs by unixcrab · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Nice rant, but you have it ass-backwards. The DUI app should not be removed/banned (free speech blah blah blah), but at the same time Apple should not be excluding apps that are subject to the same arguments about freedom of speech. Yet they do and their morality, if that is indeed the basis of their decision to not allow soft porn, comes across as more than a bit bent.

    5. Re:No boobs by Goaway · · Score: 1

      In that same vein

      Actually, that was nowhere near in the same vein.

      Those apps can be used for completely legitimate activities,

      Such as?

    6. Re:No boobs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Sorry, in the English language America is the US. Deal with it, loser.

    7. Re:No boobs by Vectormatic · · Score: 5, Insightful

      evading a police checkpoint because even though i never drink and drive, i HATE getting stopped and being at the mercy of some lowly educated police thug who by law has all sorts of ways to make me uncomfortable and consume my time?

      Granted, it might be a bit weak, but i consider that to be a very legitimate use of such an app, just because some people dont have the discipline to not drink when they will be driving (or not drive when they drank some beers), doesnt mean i should suffer right?

      (disclaimer, dont have an iphone, dont have such an app since police checkpoints are pretty scarce here, and never drink when i drive)

      --
      People, what a bunch of bastards
    8. Re:No boobs by twistedsymphony · · Score: 1

      ^that's a very good point, here's another:

      "I've been drinking but I should be good to drive.... hmm looks like there's a checkpoint on my way home, maybe I shouldn't risk it..."

      If you're too drunk to drive, you're probably also too drunk to operate a smart phone well enough to locate sobriety checkpoints.

    9. Re:No boobs by Vectormatic · · Score: 1

      ^that's a very good point, here's another:

      "I've been drinking but I should be good to drive.... hmm looks like there's a checkpoint on my way home, maybe I shouldn't risk it..."
       

      not sure if i'm missing some massive sarcasm or anything, but that is NOT a good point, if you feel like driving past a checkpoint is a risk you dont want to take, then DRIVING should be a risk you dont want to take. Your wording suggests you dont have zero tolerance over there, so then DUI limits are non-zero, and probably at some level which WILL impact your response-time

      I wouldnt have any trouble what so ever with a zero-tolerance law, provided you dont get nicked for eating a single chocolate with some dubious filling

      --
      People, what a bunch of bastards
    10. Re:No boobs by Duradin · · Score: 1

      Perhaps Apple's problem lies with all the possible legal entanglements of selling porn in $DEITY knows how many jurisdictions and that they've figured that the profits from peddling porn are less than what they'd lose from people who don't want to shop in "that kind of store".

      For all the whining about porn how much of yours do you pay for? How many people would pay for quality porn apps? How many picture-collection apps would be clogging up the App Store (do you recall when it was flooded by picture-collection apps that were cranked out at assembly line quantities and quality)?

    11. Re:No boobs by vegiVamp · · Score: 1

      Apple's puritanical censors don't allow boobs in the app store but have no problem with violence in games? Someone's moral compass is a bit wonky...

      There, fixed that for you. Seriously, DUI checkpoint reporting is no worse than speedcam or traffic jam reporting - it's just information bartering, albeit in a bit of a grey legal area.

      Want to really prevent drunk driving? Criminalize alcohol, just like all other hard drugs. But then again, that would be a major financial blow to both taxes and political pocket-lining, wouldn't it?

      --
      What a depressingly stupid machine.
    12. Re:No boobs by dogmatixpsych · · Score: 1

      I guess my sarcasm was too veiled. Next time I'll include a sarcasm tag when I include sarcastic remarks.

    13. Re:No boobs by heathen_01 · · Score: 1

      How exactly would that prevent people driving while drunk?

    14. Re:No boobs by dogmatixpsych · · Score: 1

      My "in that same vein" comment was completely sarcastic. But as numerous other people have explained, there are legitimate uses of the apps. I'm not saying either way if I support them but I don't think the government should step in just because the apps could be used for wrong. It's fine to criticize Apple or Google or other companies for their app policies but the government is trying to be too heavy handed here.

    15. Re:No boobs by mwvdlee · · Score: 0

      You think the British would agree?
      It's their language.

      --
      Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
    16. Re:No boobs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's United States of America, loser.

    17. Re:No boobs by cayenne8 · · Score: 1

      not sure if i'm missing some massive sarcasm or anything, but that is NOT a good point, if you feel like driving past a checkpoint is a risk you dont want to take, then DRIVING should be a risk you dont want to take. Your wording suggests you dont have zero tolerance over there, so then DUI limits are non-zero, and probably at some level which WILL impact your response-time

      Well, it is a good point due to the fact that the states were extorted into lowering the legal DWI BAC to .08...which is ridiculously low. A fully grown man can have about 3 glasses of wine with a meal and be dangerously close to the legal limit....but may not be anywhere near impeded to the point of not being able to drive a car safely.

      They should NOT be able to set up random check points at all IMHO...if you are driving in an impaired fashion, then by all means, get them pulled over and charged, but if you've had a few drinks, are not impaired driving, then you should be free to go on your way. It is an individual thing as to how alcohol affects each person.

      And frankly these days...the DWI dragnet is more and more becoming more of a revenue generator rather than a public safety program...much like all the speed and stop light cameras.

      Heck for a test...lets take all the speeding, dwi and other moving violation infractions...have all the money for fines pooled, and redistributed to the citizens that didn't get caught as incentive.

      I'm wanting to see how much enthusiasm the police have for setting up all the speed traps and checkpoints..if they know they're not getting direct revenues from them...hmmmm

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    18. Re:No boobs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Has anyone for almost half a century now cared what the British think? Yeah, didn't think so. America owns the English language. Bawww more eurofag.

    19. Re:No boobs by vegiVamp · · Score: 1

      It wouldn't, directly, but it would theoretically decimate the number of drunks.

      Let's have a look at the great depression to see how that works :-)

      --
      What a depressingly stupid machine.
    20. Re:No boobs by Vectormatic · · Score: 2

      A fully grown man can have about 3 glasses of wine with a meal and be dangerously close to the legal limit....but may not be anywhere near impeded to the point of not being able to drive a car safely

      how hard is it NOT to drink three glasses of wine when you know you will be driving in the next three-five hours?

      And honestly, i've had occasions where drinking one beer (a belgian triple in fact) noticably impacted my responsetimes, the same goes when i drink two glasses of wine. Granted i dont conform to the weight-range for an american fully grown man (only 85 kilos), but i shouldnt be driving in that state

      I am fairly confident that in most cases (non-empty stomach), i should be able to drive just fine after drinking a single (or two) beer, but the fact is that i know it is a sliding slope (ah, just one more beer, and then i'll quit, and i'll be fine really!), so when i drive, i dont drink, how hard can it be?

      --
      People, what a bunch of bastards
    21. Re:No boobs by feepness · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Granted i dont conform to the weight-range for an american fully grown man (only 85 kilos)

      Actually according to this you are within 2% of the average weight, which is 86.6 kilos. Well within measurement error of your scale.

      I wonder what other misconceptions you have and/or are completely wrong about.

      Have you ever driven when tired? Frustrated? No one is ever 100%.

    22. Re:No boobs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's AMERICA, FUCK YEAH! , commie bastard hippie fag.

    23. Re:No boobs by bware · · Score: 1

      if you feel like driving past a checkpoint is a risk you dont want to take

      Every interaction with a cop is a risk I don't want to take. The upside is small, and the downside is huge.

    24. Re:No boobs by jmac_the_man · · Score: 1

      There are two countries in the Americas (North and South) with the phrase "United States" in their name, the United States of America and the United Mexican States. (There are other countries that are in fact unions of states, but they don't have "United States" in their name.) Only one country in the Americas has "America" in its name. Loser.

    25. Re:No boobs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can see Apple's moral compass on display at damnyouautocorrect.

      Autocorrect returns some of the worst possible words when correcting spelling or replacing words.

      ~AC

    26. Re:No boobs by EastCoastSurfer · · Score: 1

      The problem with DUI laws in the US is that they are no longer about finding people who are impaired, but finding people who have had a drink and milking them for money. Notice the problem here? Lots of things can lead to impaired driving. Lack of sleep is a big one, along with altered mental state from anger etc...

      Then we have this magical .08 number. Why .08? What was wrong with .1? Don't even go looking at how inaccurate breathalyzers can be with their +- .02 deviation. Oh, and if you do end up blowing and end up at trial good luck getting a breath sample that you can independently test (machines have the ability to save it, but police never do...why keep around exculpatory evidence?).

      Then we have the laws themselves. I don't think there is any other time where someone can be arrested and then presumed guilty because they asked for a lawyer. ("Hey blow into this." "I want to talk to me lawyer about that." "No, blow into this or sign this stating your losing your drivers license."). And other evidence gather techniques? Yeah, most of the population cannot walk a straight line at night with blue lights flashing in their face and cars racing by at 60mph yet that works for evidence? Really?

      I'm am completely against people driving impaired whether it be by alcohol, texting, or lack of sleep. The problem is that the campaign against DUIs led mostly by MADD is really a modern day prohibitionist movement and has little to do with stopping real DUIs.

    27. Re:No boobs by Vectormatic · · Score: 1

      yes i have driven when tired or frustrated, but being drunk is far more preventable then being tired. I can far more easily decide not to get drunk before driving then not getting tired.

      --
      People, what a bunch of bastards
    28. Re:No boobs by bwayne314 · · Score: 1

      If you're sober enough to operate apps on your phone and figure out that there is a DUI stop down the road, you should be sober enough to call a cab.

    29. Re:No boobs by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      Hey...you've got to get yourself and your car home somehow....

      Look, if you want to do away with the possibility of alcohol intoxicated driving..your just going to have to get rid of and ban booze sales in bars and restaurants...which isn't gonna happen.

      Honestly, when you drive around and see all the bars out there, full of cars from the patrons that got there, and then see it empty at the end of the night...do you really think all of them called a friend to come get them and drive them home? No..they drive home. And I dunno what bars you go to...but likely 98% at least of them are over the "legal" limit. No one goes there to have 1 drink and stand, talk, dance, etc...and let that be it.

      In the US..in most cities you can write off public transportation...it isn't there. So, most people...drive to their destination, and drive home (you don't want to leave your car there to get stolen or vandalized, and likely if a week day, you need it to get to work the next day). So there you have it...the system is set up for people to drink too much (again, the insanely LOW new BAC standards)...and the cops there to catch them and get their arrest quota and revenue.

      It is kind of stupid to bitch about the problem, when society encourages it.

      And in New Orleans...well, it is like shooting fish in a barrel...you can carry drinks out to go with you, and we even have drive through daquiri shops, and until just a few years ago, didn't even have an open container law for cars...but, even with that, you don't get massive reports of drunk fsck ups all the time...people just get more practiced at drinking a bit tipsy. I'm more worried about the cops patrolling the projects and high murder areas of town, that trying to catch Fred on the way home from a few beers.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    30. Re:No boobs by R3d+M3rcury · · Score: 1

      I wouldnt have any trouble what so ever with a zero-tolerance law, provided you dont get nicked for eating a single chocolate with some dubious filling

      "I would have no problem with a zero-tolerance law, provided there was some tolerance."

      The reason you would want a zero-tolerance law is that operating a motor vehicle in anything less than full mental capacity is dangerous to you and to other road users. So what difference should it make how you attained a state of less than full mental capacity--whether you had a shot of whiskey or ate 17 whiskey-filled chocolates?

      "Zero Tolerance" always sounds good and tough, but for it to be effective, it has to be spelled out. "We have zero tolerance for weapons in our schools!" sounds good, but what is a weapon? Guns, knives, bombs, yeah sure. Nail files? Pens? Pencils? Sticks? Kind of silly.

    31. Re:No boobs by feepness · · Score: 1

      I see. So it's not a matter of how dangerous something is, but rather how easy it is for you personally to avoid it.

    32. Re:No boobs by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 1

      Basically, if you want to reduce the incidence of something, make alternatives available and easy. If, instead, you do nothing but lecture and arrest people, then it must not be a big problem - you aren't doing anything that's likely to reduce the activity.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    33. Re:No boobs by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Just like Spanish, they exported their language. There are vastly more native speakers outside England than in. They may have started it, but unlike French, it is a descriptive language, not prescriptive. As such, "American" is, at least in American English, correctly and unambiguously referring to the United States of America (just like "Mexican" refers to the United States of Mexico).

    34. Re:No boobs by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      You can also quite easily not drive. I'm not sure what it's like in the USA but in my country we have these things called taxis. Perfect for situations when I did something very silly and don't want to put the lives of myself or my fellow people at risk.

      That said there's plenty of research to show that if you're tired enough to be having the micro lapses in concentration, that a 15min nap will do wonders for your brain. Pull over, set and alarm and put your seat back. It may save your life.

    35. Re:No boobs by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Taxis... just saying. When I drive past a barstrip and see one taxi after another leaving along with a queue at the taxi rank I know how they get home at night. That said where do you get the idea that 98% are over the legal limit? The legal limit here is 0.05 which is basically 3 beers in the first hour and a beer every hour following for the average person. In the USA the limit is higher. Not everyone goes to a bar or restaurant to get horribly shitfaced.

      I drive "under the influence" every other weekend. I also get pulled over every other weekend and told I'm under the limit. Learn some restraint.

    36. Re:No boobs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you're from Los Angeles too.

    37. Re:No boobs by moortak · · Score: 1

      You do realize that Louisiana may be one of the worst choices you could have gone with to prove your people get used to it theory, right? It has the second highest fatality rate of any state when you adjust for miles driven. It isn't like redirecting those cops in New Orleans seems to be working at holding down the homicide rate either. http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/States/StatesFatalitiesFatalityRates.aspx

      --
      Xavier Rabourdin for president 2012
    38. Re:No boobs by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      Cabs aren't really an option in most US cities really....not that many of them and it can cost like $40 to get across town in one of them.

      NOLA is different....there are lots of them here due to being such a tourist city.

      On the other hand....leaving your car in many places around here....you'll either not find a car when you get back...or only a stripped shell of one the next day.

      I think there is much more of a stigma to drinking and driving in the north of the US than in the south....everyone I know often has a few and no big deal to drive home...and no one has problems with it. Maybe more practice helps....sure if you're shitfaced....yeah, you don't drive, but 99% you aren't skunk drunk and you naturally drive home.

      Also, if you're taking a chick home from the bar...you're not gonna do it in a cab....

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    39. Re:No boobs by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      See other post....not many cabs in most cities I know of....usually only like 1 or two companies..and can cost you well over $40 to go across town one way...

      That, and you don't want to leave your car at the bar....especially if you have to get up and work the next day...

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    40. Re:No boobs by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      if you're taking a chick home from the bar...you're not gonna do it in a cab....

      This goes against every cheesy American sitcom I've ever seen :)

    41. Re:No boobs by ByOhTek · · Score: 1

      As someone who watches the BBC a lot, I'd say...

      Yes, yes they do.

      --
      Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
  3. Damn gubment! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Tryin to mess wit aur free cuntree! If I wan get drunk an do recless thangs, they shouldn't stop me! If people get themselves killed by my drivin, weren't my fault, I was drunk an couldn't help it! Their own fault for bein' stupid I say!

  4. 1st Amendment? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    1st Amendment? We don't need no stinkin 1st Amendment!

    1. Re:1st Amendment? by unixcrab · · Score: 0

      Fee speech for all of course, but when Apple simply ignores that and bans apps because of their content, the fanbois become conspicuously silent.

    2. Re:1st Amendment? by Dog-Cow · · Score: 1

      Apple is not subject to the 1st Amendment, though they are protected by it. The Senators are bound by the 1st Amendment, thus they can only ask Apple nicely; they can not insist upon it.

    3. Re:1st Amendment? by intheshelter · · Score: 1

      Actually Apple fans are never conspicuously silent. They may not agree with you, but they are never silent.

    4. Re:1st Amendment? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Senators are bound by the 1st Amendment

      Not as individuals. Only in their role as legislators.

      thus they can only ask Apple nicely; they can not insist upon it.

      They can ask Apple rudely if they like. They can insist on it as well. They're less likely to be able to legislate, but if this is actually not "speech" but a tool designed entirely for illegal purposes, then the fact that it is technically speech becomes merely incidental.

  5. Second thoughts by Chrisq · · Score: 3, Funny
  6. Senators should STFU by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    While drinking and driving is horrible, what's worse are government actors who conduct searches without a warrant or probable cause.

    1. Re:Senators should STFU by Chrisq · · Score: 2, Funny

      While drinking and driving is horrible, what's worse are government actors who conduct searches without a warrant or probable cause.

      Yes, I'd complain to the actors' Union.

    2. Re:Senators should STFU by Vectormatic · · Score: 1

      before i re-read the GPs post i thought you were making a charlie sheen joke...

      --
      People, what a bunch of bastards
    3. Re:Senators should STFU by MachineShedFred · · Score: 1

      The whole legal proceeding with modern DUI prosecutions seem to be extremely problematic in constitutional law. Maybe I'm missing something, but how is it legal to:

      > compel someone into a "breath test" which amounts to a warrantless search (Fourth Amendment)
      > compel someone to bear witness against themselves in a criminal proceeding by either bearing witness against themselves in a breath test (Fifth Amendment), or going to jail for not (due process, also Fifth Amendment)

      I know there's some law scholars within the Slashdot Horde, anyone care to explain?

      --
      Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
    4. Re:Senators should STFU by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is not legal, but since no one respects the Nautral Rights of Man anymore, those rights are trampled on. What are you gonna do about it? Stand up to those thugs who steal from you at gunpoint? You'll either be locked up for a long time or shot. Do waht you're told. Be a good little tax paying slave and don't ask questions.

    5. Re:Senators should STFU by cdrguru · · Score: 1

      It is a condition of getting a driver's license that you waive any rights you might have to not agree to any sort of DUI testing they want to subject you to on the slightest suspicion of being drunk.

      If you would like to preserve your right not to be tested, don't get a driver's license. It is viewed commonly as the community's right to protect itself from drunk drivers. We had plenty of people killed by drunk drivers such that there is an impressive set of statistics from the 1960s and 1970s where drunk drivers where allowed to pretty much get off with a warning, sometimes even after being involved in accidents. The end result of this was in the 1980s a small group of people were able to exert enough pressure on state and federal governments to make drunk driving an extremely risky behavior.

      So, no there is no "due process" or right to anything concerning driving while drunk anymore. If you appear to be drunk, you will be tested. If you refuse, you are treated as if you tested positively. If you test positive, regardless of the accuracy of the machine used, you will be punished. This means that if the machine says 0.08 (legal limit in most states) and a better-calibrated or more accurate machine might say 0.79 it doesn't matter, and the court isn't interested in your defense. You were legally drunk and will be punished.

      This does drag some people into the system that are innocent, but apparently there was enough ruckus created in the 1980s that the governments at all levels are fine with that. There is very little controversy about the idea of perhaps convicting an innocent person of drunk driving. Very little indeed. Because it was adequately proven that drunk drivers kill people rather indiscriminately.

    6. Re:Senators should STFU by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      I thought that in most cases it isn't a crime to refuse to comply, but it can lead to an immediate ban on your license and towing of your car under the terms and conditions you agree to for driving. If you live in an area where it's a criminal act to refuse a breathalyser, please let us know. I'd be curious about that.

  7. Traffic Situation by crow_t_robot · · Score: 5, Insightful

    DUI check points are normally semi-hazardous traffic situations where cops have cars lined up on the side of the road with pedestrians and officers standing outside their vehicles near the boundary paint of the highway. They also cause significant traffic back-ups and delays. Knowing of these locations is useful for non-drinkers if they have to be somewhere on-time or don't want to be put in the situation to have to navigate a ludicrous human-slalom course. Just like almost any application, it can be used for good and evil. Knee-jerk, MADD-influenced political campaigning HHHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO....

    1. Re:Traffic Situation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd agree with you, if the app to include other forms of traffic back-ups. That would its good uses while leaving the app's potential for abuse unchanged.

    2. Re:Traffic Situation by fermion · · Score: 1
      There are many other reasons why such an App is appropriate and maybe even necessary. For instance, if I were to rob a store, there is no constitutional or legal theory that requires me to drive by a police station. I am well within my rights to use a map with the locations of police stations and plan my get away accordingly.

      Likewise, if I am on the stand, I cannot be compelled to provide evidence against myself. The police cannot use extreme measures to force me to provide evidence against myself.

      We are in a panic about drunk driving. Reasonable methods to fight drunk driving is to patrol the areas normally traveled by drunk drivers, stop vehicles that exhibit dangerous behaviors, then give then a ticket for such behavior. If the are show evidence of drunkenness, then charge them, take them to jail, and run a blood alcohol test. if they are drunk put in them in jail for 30 days, or whatever. This is the constitutional method to solve the problem.

      Unfortunately, the religious right who makes a habit of spitting on the constitution, want to make not drunk driving illegal, but drinking illegal. They want these checkpoint to infringe on the legal activity of law abiding citizens. They think that everyone should be forced, even at gunpoint, to follow all the social norms they believe are correct.

      OTOH, the lawmakers, as we recall from our previous president, don't see much wrong with drunk and reckless driving, and are not willing to punish the people who actually pose a threat on the road. Therefore they play these game of minimal penalties for driver who really pose no threat, while remaining unwilling to remove licenses and give jail time to those that do pose a threat.

      In many more conservative parts of the country, such checkpoint has been ruled unconstitutional. Perhaps ironically as the spectrum has moved from fiscal conservatives to social conservatives, the basic tennets of liberty and rule of law has been pushed aside to allow for control of the population by a fanatical and dangerous religious minority. The opposition to this App is an indication of the power of such a force imposing sharia law. Citizens have the freedom to go where they wish on the public roads. Citizens have the right to communicate as the wish over private networks. If such travel or communication is illegal, such things are dealt with by pressing charges for the crime after the fact, not prior restraint. No rational person in the US would deny the constitution guarantees these rights. If it was guns, there would be no issue. We do not have checkpoints for guns. But the religious nuts wants everyone to be unhappy just because they are unhappy.

      --
      "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
    3. Re:Traffic Situation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are they DUI checkpoints where they block traffic and stop everyone, even if they don't appear to be driving impaired?

      If so, they're unconstitutional and I fully support any App to get around them.

      Remember when America stood for freedom? How did we fall so far?

    4. Re:Traffic Situation by sjames · · Score: 1

      In addition to all of that, it's also useful to a sober driver that resents being pulled over and detained (however briefly) without probable cause.

    5. Re:Traffic Situation by _0xd0ad · · Score: 1

      There are plenty of GPS units that already warn about other forms of traffic back-up. That would be unnecessary duplication of feature.

    6. Re:Traffic Situation by Ghengis+Khak · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, the religious right who makes a habit of spitting on the constitution, want to make not drunk driving illegal, but drinking illegal. They want these checkpoint to infringe on the legal activity of law abiding citizens. They think that everyone should be forced, even at gunpoint, to follow all the social norms they believe are correct.

      Nice. Just pin everything on the people you disagree with despite what TFA says:

      Sens. Harry Reid (D-Nev.), Charles Schumer (D-NY), Frank Lautenberg (D-NJ) and Tom Udall (D-NM) asked Scott Forstall, the head of Apple's iPhone software group, to pull an unspecified number of apps from the company's App Store. The senators also made similar requests of Google's CEO Eric Schmidt and Research in Motion's (RIM) co-CEOs, James Balsillie and Michael Lazaridis.

      Oppression is bipartisan, but in this case it is the Blue Team at work.

    7. Re:Traffic Situation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As much as I hate to admit it, Democrats do go to church and often have low enough intelligence to be conned by the charlatans at the pulpit. So, just like the average Republican, Democrats can develop these radical religious and right leaning opinions. Though it is true that the republican party has been contaminated to such a degree that they only can see religious, or sharia, law, the Democrat are not all immune to similar anti-constitutional behavior. Therefore, just because a democrat that has been portrayed by fox news as a radical left person, it in no way means that he is not a religious freak who wants to hand the country over to whatever religious cult is currently controlling him.

  8. Public Information by malignant_minded · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I don't read the newspaper but aren't these checkpoints announced in the paper ahead of time. Why is getting a reminder wrong. I don't drink but I don't necessarily want to get slowed down driving through these, in fact when I can see inspection sticker checks ahead I usually go out of my way to avoid them even with valid tags. I find it's best to avoid police at all costs.

    1. Re:Public Information by DanTheStone · · Score: 2

      Similarly: Just because I'm driving the speed limit, I stay between the lines, my registration's up to date, and I'm not under the influence of any drugs, it doesn't mean I'm comfortable having a police car right behind me for 10 miles. I try to look for the first non-suspicious location to get out of the way.

    2. Re:Public Information by malignant_minded · · Score: 2

      Indeed I do the same thing. I find it is like this with anything. Just because I know how to configure a server doesn't mean I like having someone breathing down my neck watching what I am doing at all times. People need space or they get stressed out and make mistakes they wouldn't normally do because now they are more focussed on not doing something wrong.

    3. Re:Public Information by CaptBubba · · Score: 4, Interesting

      They HAVE to be publicized to be legal in the US. This is because part of the legal logic used to find checkpoints OK is they serve as a deterrent, which can't happen if they are kept secret.

      And yes, it is a good idea to avoid the checkpoints like the plague. The vast majority of citations and arrests they make have absolutely nothing to do with DUI. At any particular moment there are likely dozens of violations on your car which you can be written up for. Even when I drove my brand new car off the lot it had equipment issues I could be ticketed for (the dealership put those plastic things around the license plates).

    4. Re:Public Information by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They are NOT clearly publicized in Pennsylvania (where the App Vendor is located.) Other states (like Delaware) clearly state what road and times the enforcement points are scheduled, however PA will post a totally useless piece of information - here are some specific examples:

      - State police at the Schuylkill Haven barracks announced that a sobriety checkpoint will be set up at an undisclosed location in Schuylkill County this weekend.
      - The North Central Regional Sobriety Checkpoint DUI Taskforce has announced sobriety checkpoints and Roving DUI patrols will be conducted through Oct. 10 on Routes 61, 183, 901, 209, 309, 443, SR 1006, 895, 125, 25, 924 and 54.
      - PennDOT will again partner with police agencies across the state for "Operation Safe Holiday" from Thanksgiving through the New Year's holiday. Police will use sobriety checkpoints, roving patrols and regular traffic safety patrols to watch for motorists exhibiting dangerous behaviors, including speeding, aggressive and impaired driving. Pennsylvania will also conduct Click It or Ticket seat belt enforcement from Nov. 19 to Dec. 3.

      This application is a great example of how technology is helping people.

    5. Re:Public Information by ShavedOrangutan · · Score: 1

      In Virginia, checkpoints are directly used to collect taxes. Up until a couple years ago, we had to affix a sticker to the windshield indicating we'd paid our county property taxes. After tax day, roadblocks would show up all over the place looking for expired stickers.

      The stickers are gone now, but cops are still roadblocking to look for drivers with in-state licenses and out-of-state plates - a commonly used way to beat the property taxes. The county cops roadblocked outside of my wedding last year to harass all my family and guests. First word out of the cop's mouth when my brother drove up was, "You got a Maryland license to go with those Maryland plates?", like he thought he'd just caught a tax dodger. Asshole.

      --
      Godaddy is a scam and a ripoff.
    6. Re:Public Information by ironjaw33 · · Score: 1

      Up until a couple years ago, we had to affix a sticker to the windshield indicating we'd paid our county property taxes

      It's even worse now -- instead of using checkpoints, they come to you. In Portsmouth, VA, they outsourced the property tax enforcement to contractors driving around with a license plate reader. When they find someone's car in a lot that hasn't paid their taxes, they boot it.

    7. Re:Public Information by ShavedOrangutan · · Score: 1

      I don't understand why they don't connect property tax and safety inspection into registration renewals, and then do away with all these stickers and checkpoints. It would be more convenient as a resident and impossible to cheat.

      County taxes are one of the few taxes I don't mind paying since the benefit is local and clearly visible, and since I drive used cars, my neighbors are stuck with a higher burden. :)

      --
      Godaddy is a scam and a ripoff.
    8. Re:Public Information by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No crap. I was once pulled over for no reason at all. Cop checked my license tabs, saw they were good, and then started down the list starting with running my license. Finally, with nothing else to ticket me for he noted that I had to drive with my glasses on. I had contacts.

      Yep, ticket. Court. Verdict: "officer did not see evidence of prescription lenses" or some such nonsense. Never did get a reason as to why I was pulled over.

      Fuzz-busters, DUI-trap-maps, and any other device that lets you level the playing field against cops is okay in my book.

    9. Re:Public Information by quacking+duck · · Score: 2

      A friend was heading home on an empty highway late one night after work, hadn't had anything to drink, was doing the speed limit, and obeying all traffic laws. He got pulled over.

      Why? After determining my friend was free to go, the officer said there's plenty of drivers who know they're just above the legal limit (recently revised downward here, to a blood alcohol level of 0.05%, so quite a few women can't even have a single drink now) and do everything to avoid suspicion by being the best possible driver.

      The officer, though good humoured, declined my friend's request to get a ticket for driving the speed limit.

    10. Re:Public Information by ZipK · · Score: 1

      (recently revised downward here, to a blood alcohol level of 0.05%, so quite a few women can't even have a single drink now)

      Is there some sort of gravity vortex that keeps women from metabolizing alcohol in your area?

    11. Re:Public Information by quacking+duck · · Score: 1

      A slight exaggeration, but not at all hard to reach. Using http://www.rupissed.com/ a 160cm, 55kg woman drinking an English pint of beer at lunch, finishing 20 minutes before leaving, has a blood alcohol level of 0.049%. Assuming real beer of course, at 5% ABV. Add in wiggle room and other body factors and she could easily blow over the legal limit.

      Yes she could drink less, or have a lighter drink, or stay longer, but there you go

    12. Re:Public Information by An+Anonymous+Coward · · Score: 1

      A friend was heading home on an empty highway late one night after work, hadn't had anything to drink, was doing the speed limit, and obeying all traffic laws. He got pulled over.

      Why? After determining my friend was free to go, the officer said there's plenty of drivers who know they're just above the legal limit (recently revised downward here, to a blood alcohol level of 0.05%, so quite a few women can't even have a single drink now) and do everything to avoid suspicion by being the best possible driver.

      The officer, though good humoured, declined my friend's request to get a ticket for driving the speed limit.

      So... he got pulled over for driving too perfectly? Isn't it illegal for an officer to pull you over without a single valid reason? And no, suspicion you might be driving drunk because you're driving perfectly isn't a valid reason. This is exactly the kind of stuff that makes me distrust all officers, when you can't even have the peace of mind that you won't be pulled over even if you're doing nothing wrong. I'd be talking to a lawyer if that ever happened to me.

      As a side note, that also removes all pretenses that such a low limit is to deter drunk driving. If people just over that limit are still able to drive well enough to "avoid suspicion", are they really too drunk to drive? Or is it just all about the money at this point?

  9. Just the thin edge of the wedge by Coisiche · · Score: 1

    People will always do stupid things and some people seem to think that it's useful to acquire something that enables their stupidity, but it's not really the job of state to deny them that privilege.

    Anyway, things that are much more 'harmful to public safety' are legal and, it would seem, easily obtainable.

  10. non-illegal use. by MickyTheIdiot · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Sorry, this doesn't fly for me. If an app is produced that is 100% for evading police I would say it wasn't appropriate, but believe it or not there are actually uses for this app that have nothing to do with evading a drunk driving charge. I don't drink at all and if I still lived in Indianapolis I would probably download it because I don't want to be involved with such checkpoints. I don't see how that is wrong.

    Besides, how is a drunk person going to be able to use the app anyway. They'll break the phone first.

    1. Re:non-illegal use. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Damn straight. Sure I could use my TimeStop app to produce Japanese porn, but what I really use it for is to avoid late payment fees on my iPhone service.

      I have no point. I just want a TimeStop app.

    2. Re:non-illegal use. by slim · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Besides, how is a drunk person going to be able to use the app anyway. They'll break the phone first.

      I see that your (perfectly valid) choice not to drink, leaves you ignorant of the basics of drunkenness.

      After, say, 2 pints of beer, you can walk without swaying, talk without slurring, and certainly operate a phone. You'd be perfectly capable of driving a car, too, if you could guarantee there wouldn't be any surprises. It's when the car in front brakes suddenly, or there's a loose bit of tyre in your lane, etc. that you'd discover your reactions aren't as quick or accurate as you'd like them to be.

      Almost everybody knows when they're hammered, and wouldn't dream of getting in a car. The danger nowadays is people driving after 2-4 beers, because they feel as if they're in control when they're not.

      Unless you knew all that and were making a weak joke...

    3. Re:non-illegal use. by MickyTheIdiot · · Score: 1

      yeah, it was a VERY weak joke.

    4. Re:non-illegal use. by slim · · Score: 1

      Fair enough. I have genuinely met people IRL who where convinced that half a bitter turned you from Dr Jekyll to Mr Hyde. It wouldn't surprise me if such people held local government positions in some places.

    5. Re:non-illegal use. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...but he does have a point. My experience with road hazard / speedtrap /red light camera apps is that they are spotty at best. OK for fixed speed cameras and regular traps but almost useless for ad hoc setups. These apps depend on users entering the data in an altruistic way: I've been caught or risked getting caught so I will enter the data, real time, and do a good turn for others. Doesn't work all that well for the, hopefully, much larger population of sober people driving every day.

      How well is this going to work with the smaller population of DWI pilots out there?

      OTOH, this app involves the equivalent of texting while driving. Combine DWI and DWTexting and what do we get?

    6. Re:non-illegal use. by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      Well alcohol inhibits inhibitory (GABAergic) neurons first - the problem is not so much one of reaction time (the classic yet false argument) or not being aware of your surroundings. You need far more than 0.08mg/dl for that. There is minimal reflex loss but in a vehicle it always comes down to speed and braking distance. 0.5 seconds (I exaggerate, you don't lose half a second from your reflex time with 2 beers in you) or so is not the end of the world at 30mph - that's not even a foot of distance traveled. If you drive with less than a foot of "spare" braking distance at that speed you don't deserve a license. The real argument is more one of "I don't care about the consequences" that will send you down a 35mph zone at 65mph, or around the curve slightly in the other lane, or too close to that car in front, or take that chance at the yellow traffic light. It's same mechanism that will make you talk a little louder, make the jokes a little funnier, and make you have that third drink that you know you're going to regret later - because the third will lead to a fourth and a fifth and...

      As you keep drinking, of course, the regular neurons become depressed too, and you start losing coordination, reflexes, awareness, etc - what people typically associate with drunkenness.

      And of course the effect of alcohol on any individual is highly subjective, depending on the person's genetics/ethnic background, chronic alcohol use, medication, weight, etc. But the law is the law and ours is not to reason why.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    7. Re:non-illegal use. by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      Meh - forgot to multiply by 30 - at 30mph you travel around 22 feet in half a second. My bad. But then again I think you lose 0.1 seconds or so off your reaction time. Much less than a car length.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    8. Re:non-illegal use. by mariox19 · · Score: 1

      and make you have that third drink that you know you're going to regret later - because the third will lead to a fourth and a fifth and...

      This is how alcoholics handle booze. Non-alcoholics don't generally drink this way.

      --

      quiquid id est, timeo puellas et oscula dantes.

    9. Re:non-illegal use. by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      Non alcoholics don't generally drink more than one drink, if that. The rest is just varying degrees and stages of alcoholism.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    10. Re:non-illegal use. by kevinNCSU · · Score: 1

      Certainly this must be a joke. Your not an alcoholic or any degree of an alcoholic just because have more than a single drink, especially if you're eating or hanging out with people for awhile. What you're probably looking for is that alcoholics *can't* have "just one" drink.

    11. Re:non-illegal use. by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      Indeed, and I think the 'reaction time' claim is somewhat dangerous. Drunk drivers do not lose very much, and that is not the problem with their driving. People that drunk are 'falling down' drunk. Anyone who's that drunk is probably not driving.

      The problem with their driving is that they are very bad drivers. They make very bad decisions. They are careless with their operation of a one ton machine. Often they are 'still at the party', with other people laughing and talking. Sometimes they are 'angry drunk', sometimes they are 'giddy drunk', but almost all sorts of drunk make bad drivers.

      It's interesting that this is just a statistical lowering of decisions, and quite a lot of drunk drivers make better decisions that other sober ones. Of course, this doesn't argue that that we should let them be drunk, it argues we should, more importantly, get those shitty sober drivers off the road. (After all, they're bad drivers all the time.)

      If reflexes were the problem, we could just require that all drunk drivers stay an extra car length back, although as you pointed out, anyone operating without that sort of safety margin probably shouldn't be operating a car anyway. Of course, one of the risks that drunk drivers take is to follow too closely, which looks, statistically, exactly like 'bad reflexes' when they rear-end people.

      The real problem, what has always been the problem, is that it is literally impossible to operate without a car in 80% of America. Thus we can't do what would be the sane thing and remove bad drivers from the road. Include ones that become bad drivers when drinking, if they insist on drinking.

      Of course, if we had a way for temporarily bad, aka, drunk, drivers, to get home without drinking, we'd probably have less of them to start with. I wonder how much less traffic fatalities we'd have if we took exactly one police car away from every police department and made it a full-time taxi in areas that don't have one.

      The town I live in has exactly one part-time 'taxi', which bars can call on Fri and Sat nights, to take people home. Of course, now their car is stuck at a bar and they can't get it back, nor can they take the 'taxi' if the guy is not operating that night or it's during the day. All that money spent on 'stopping drunk driving', all the money thrown at enforcement and putting breathalyzers in each car and hiring more police and paying them to sit and Terry Stop people so they can find drunk ones, all the money spent having trials for caught drunk drivers, and holding them in jail until then...and we apparently can't partially subsidize a taxi service.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    12. Re:non-illegal use. by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      A few random thoughts.

      Don't drink and derive, the calculus gets all messed up.
      Don't drink and drive, you might hit a bump and spill your drink.
      Drunk Drivers give everyone who drinks and drives a bad name.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    13. Re:non-illegal use. by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      Well I guess it depends, doesn't it? There are a whole bunch of entirely subjective labels - "social drinker", "casual drinker", "occasional drinker", "alcoholic" etc. In my field (medicine) we try to classify it on a scale which again is entirely subjective, the "CAGE" method where if you answer yes to 3 out of the 4 subjective questions represented in the mnemonic "Ever feel you need to Cut down? Ever feel Angry if someone mentions drinking? Ever feel Guilty about drinking? Ever feel you need an Eye opener after drinking?" you are likely to be an alcoholic. But as you can see those questions are open to a lot of subjective interpretation. Not to mention the fact that people often lie to themselves as well as their caregiver.

      So in my mind it's easier to divide the world into people who don't drink or who if they have their arm twisted by social convention and peer pressure, etc, might have a single drink which they will sip all night long, and the rest who are blissfully unaware of the slippery slope they are standing on. Having 2 drinks does not make you an alcoholic. Nor does having an entire bottle of Whiskey. The pathology is far more complex than that. There's the whole issue of why the person drinks (euphoria/self medication for affective or personality disorders/etc) and how the drinking impacts their life and the life of those around them. However avoiding drinking and never drinking makes it very likely you are NOT an alcoholic.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    14. Re:non-illegal use. by gknoy · · Score: 1

      If you drive with less {sufficient} "spare" braking distance at {any} speed you don't deserve a license.

      In many areas, such as all of southern California (it seems), no one leaves sufficient baking distance between them and the car in front of them. (I regularly try.) If you do, people cut in front of you to fill the space, until there's generally about two to four car lengths of space between any given car... going 70 miles per hour. Most peoples' stopping time is a lot farther than that, and we (collectively) are basically gambling that we'll notice when the guy five cars in front of us puts on his brake lights. That's pretty reasonable for "normal" rush-hour traffic, but completely idiotic when you factor in that some people that are far within your braking distance might have an unexpected reason to stop (collision, car trouble, someone cuts them off, mattress falls off the truck in front, etc).

      This is mitigated somewhat by absolute paranoia while driving -- expecting that people will cut you off, and making room so they can safely do so -- but I'm pretty certain that almost no one on the southern california highways drives safely enough... including me, I'm ashamed to say.

    15. Re:non-illegal use. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "The danger nowadays is people driving after 2-4 beers, because they feel as if they're in control when they're not."

      A 170 pound male can drink 4 12 ounce beers in 1 hour on an empty stomach before reaching .04, half the low legal limit (unless some state has dropped it). The only evidence we have of increased risk of accident starts at about .05, so it is kind of hard to say that 2-4 beers is the danger "now a days."

      Also, just because people know that getting being the wheel hammered is bad does not mean they won't don't drive under that condition. For instance, "In 2007, more than half of the drunk drivers involved in fatal crashes had a BAC level of .15 g/dL , nearly twice the legal limit."

      To get to that level that same 170lb guy has to drink 8 drinks in 2 hours on an empty stomach. . . which is pretty drunk for anyone.

      facts from this link:

      http://facts.randomhistory.com/2009/08/28_drunk-driving.html

    16. Re:non-illegal use. by slim · · Score: 1

      12oz is a little over half an imperial pint, and typical US domestic bottled beer is a bit weaker than a typical British tap beer. So yeah, I suppose my 2-4 beers would be 4-8 bottles in the US.

      I personally limit myself to a pint, because I can feel the effects of the second pint, and that's enough to know it may affect my driving.

    17. Re:non-illegal use. by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 1

      Huh, I remember having that conversation over on some other board - I said "hey, I can drink 2 beers in an hour or so and drive okay" - you'd think I was hunting nuns with a crossbow.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    18. Re:non-illegal use. by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Well I guess it depends, doesn't it?

      No, it doesn't. You sound like the cops that have been doing it for years that divide the planet into two sides, cops and criminals. Plenty of people can be non-criminal non-cops. Just like plenty of people can be non-alcoholic drinkers. That you can't see it indicates you have no perspective and no empathy, but it doesn't mean you are correct.

    19. Re:non-illegal use. by Builder · · Score: 1

      Uh, I'm pretty sure you can. Legally. In the UK at least.

      No, no - not hunt nuns with a crossbow - drive after 2 pints over an hour. Most converters I've seen put you at 0.08 BAC which is the legal limit after around half an hour after 2 pints at 5.4% ABV. After an hour, that is less.

    20. Re:non-illegal use. by Builder · · Score: 1

      I always feel guilty after drinking. That doesn't make me an alcoholic - it makes my wife a nag ;)

    21. Re:non-illegal use. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      DUI checkpoints (at least in California) all have to be publicized and you also have the right to turn around if you are caught in line before a checkpoint. It's mostly a show of force that acts as a deterrent to drunk driving by increasing awareness. The amount of people actually caught by these checkpoints is minimal. Therefore, it's mostly just an annoyance to sober drivers.

      I don't see how this is encouraging people to drink and drive...

    22. Re:non-illegal use. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'll drink ten to maybe twenty beers and drive and then use this app. It's great.

  11. Apple Says No. by garcia · · Score: 1

    Remember the stupid story making the rounds yesterday about Apple sending a free iPad2 to the man who reported, "Wife said No."?

    Yeah well Apple should send the elected officials, "Apple Says No."

    1. Re:Apple Says No. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Remember the stupid story making the rounds yesterday about Apple sending a free iPad2 to the man who reported, "Wife said No."?

      Yeah well Apple should send the elected officials, "Apple Says No."

      With the hopes that they'll get... a free DUI?

  12. Multitaksking by stomv · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Believe it or not, a Senator [and his staff] can do more than one thing at a time. Besides, since young males account for the largest share of the American drunk driving population, and since young males have a large potential to contribute more to the federal tax base over then they receive in government benefits, keeping them alive and healthy does cut the deficit. Same goes for wars -- we need soldiers, and young men make fantastic soldiers.

    P.S. The deficit isn't the problem. The deficit is the symptom of an economy which hasn't recovered for the middle and lower class. A lack of decent jobs is the problem.

    1. Re:Multitaksking by SharpFang · · Score: 1

      OTOH alcohol excise tax is a significant source of budget income, so maximizing ability to consume alcohol would be profitable for the budget...

      --
      45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
    2. Re:Multitaksking by Dunbal · · Score: 2

      keeping them alive and healthy does cut the deficit.

      Considering that the deficit has increased over time along with population, I'm not sure I follow your logic. More people = more services demanded = more spending. And more spending means it's easier to hide frivolous spending, which means the overall efficiency goes down too. The tax base in no way approaches the deficit - which is why there is a deficit in the first place. So "keeping them alive and healthy" will not reduce the deficit and in fact may contribute to the deficit. But of course something like this would get laughed at by government - the same government that "knows what it's doing" and has gotten us where we are in the first place. Sure, laugh.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    3. Re:Multitaksking by Hatta · · Score: 1

      The deficit is the symptom of an economy which hasn't recovered for the middle and lower class

      It has recovered exactly like it was supposed to.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    4. Re:Multitaksking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      YM:

      "since young males have a large potential to contribute to the prison bed population, well lining the pockets of private detention corporations, keeping them alive, healthy, and incarcerated is a must for any politician."

    5. Re:Multitaksking by Kokuyo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No, the problem is a system that demands you HAVE a job even though your fellow man does NOT NEED your labor. We don't need more jobs. Obviously, we're getting the stuff we need to live quite comfortably with the jobs we have.

      We're still linking 'having a job' to 'contributing to society' and therefore we're linking 'salary' to 'right to buy food and shelter'. At the same time it's every manager's duty to make his business more streamlined and thus efficient. Cutting jobs is their primary goal and rightfully so. It just runs contrary to that idea that everyone needs a job.

      Full employment runs contrary to capitalism. The more efficient capitalism gets, the less workable the socialist idea of full employment becomes.

    6. Re:Multitaksking by Shadow99_1 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      And exactly what is supposed to happen to those who find themselves without jobs? Especially for men with no kids government will not help you. You don't qualify for state medical aid programs so better not get sick. You won't qualify for state monetary support. You may manage to squeak by for food stamps. You won't qualify for housing support. So... That's looking really great there.

      Women on the other hand usually qualify for all of those when not working and not supported by someone else. They go to the top of the lists if they have kids. Men with kids rank just below women, though often still have issues with certain programs.

      I have needed those very support programs before and been let down as a single man. I'm hardly alone either, the economy is much better for women than men in the first place. Women are in demand by business. So your suggesting we need less men (as the most often to be let go and who in their younger years make less than their female counterparts on average) who then can't get support to continue to live without family to take care of them. That so isn't a long term solution.

      --
      we are all invisible unless we choose otherwise
    7. Re:Multitaksking by Schadrach · · Score: 1

      No, you have it all wrong -- you want to keep young males alive and healthy so they can pay into the system. When they cease paying into the system they are either old, unemployed, and/or disabled males, and need to be gotten rid of before they ask for too much back out of the system.

      Social Security is an entirely reasonable system if you expect to pay out less than 5 years to any given individual -- when people start not dying when they're supposed to that changes entirely...

    8. Re:Multitaksking by Kokuyo · · Score: 1

      Just FYI, I am not an American, so things like food stamps are horrors I associate with post-war zones, or any kind of post-apocalyptic SciFi...

      That being said, did I in any way insinuate that our system was in any way ready to get to where I think we need to be?

    9. Re:Multitaksking by Dunbal · · Score: 0

      Well I disagree. You want more people to "pay into the system". I think the "system" is designed to swallow all money you throw at it and beg for more, regardless of quantities. It's a bottomless pit. Saying you will fill it with more people doesn't stop it from being bottomless.

      An example - 2008. There was a HUGE outcry about TARP which was going to be $700 billion dollars in 2 payments of $350 billion. It made the news. There were protests. People were angry. Fast forward to Nov 2010 - the Fed spends another $600 billion, almost matching the original $700 billion that got everyone so worked up. What happened? The sound of crickets. Spending more encourages more spending. This is history. Every fiat currency EVER has destroyed itself, sooner or later. Irregardless of population or production or technology.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    10. Re:Multitaksking by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      Not if you end up killing people because of it. It's going to take a LOT of alcohol taxes to pay for even a single injury. Deaths tend to be even more costly as you lose entire input of that person into economy forever.

    11. Re:Multitaksking by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      P.S. The deficit isn't the problem. The deficit is the symptom of an economy which hasn't recovered for the middle and lower class. A lack of decent jobs is the problem.

      Considering that technically we have had a deficit my entire lifetime (no, the budget was not balanced under Clinton, if you look, you will see that Federal debt increased every year under Clinton, which means that the Federal Government was spending more than it took in, even when they claimed a "balanced budget"), your diagnosis is also incorrect. The problem is that Congress spends too much. Historically, Federal Governemnt tax revenues have very consistently maintained between 18-19% of GDP, while Congress has spent between 20-21% of GDP. However, in the last few years, spending has increased to around 25% of GDP, making the problem worse. Basically, the problem is that in bad times, Congress is afraid to not continue increasing spending because they are afraid that will cause the times to get even worse and in good times they see no reason not to increase spending.
      However, the deficit is not the problem, the problem is Congress spending too much money. Unfortunately, if Congress does not soon address the problem, the deficit will become a problem in its own right.

      Personally, I have no problems with the Senators calling for this app to be removed, as long as they do not threaten to pass some law about it. The existence of this app is no business of the Federal Government. If the Senators want to express their personal opinion that this app is a bad idea, that is their right.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    12. Re:Multitaksking by cayenne8 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      OTOH alcohol excise tax is a significant source of budget income, so maximizing ability to consume alcohol would be profitable for the budget...

      Actually..you're not far off the mark.

      Back in the 80's...LA was one of the last states (if not the last) to raise the drinking age from 18yrs to 21yrs after being extorted by the Feds. One reason they held out so long was that they figured they'd lose WAY more money in lost tax revenues from raising the drinking age than they would lose from Fed. Highway funds.

      Sadly, one of the big oil crunches hit about then, and the state was hurting for money and finally succumbed.

      The feds really need to get their nose the fsck OUT of national legislation like this...this should be up to the states.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    13. Re:Multitaksking by Shadow99_1 · · Score: 1

      I would think the posting that what we need is a reduction of working people directly correlates with our system needing to be ready to deal with it. It was implied (though not stated) that current trends of capitalism already show the effect of which you mention.

      A growing part of america is on foodstamps FYI and they programs have never gone away here. I had an ex who lived on welfare while going to college for her associates degree for instance. Though she had a child and so qualified for money, food, housing, and medical assistance. That had an overlap when I ended up between jobs and had a hospital visit, which sans insurance (it's tied to employment in the US) meant I suddenly owed $5000 USD for effectively a emergency room visit that didn't require any expensive tests or complex actions, just a doctor to look at me for 10 minutes and write up a prescription. No agency would help, though they could if they wanted to.

      --
      we are all invisible unless we choose otherwise
    14. Re:Multitaksking by Moryath · · Score: 1, Troll

      Irregardless

      People without the brainpower to realize that this is not a word, annoy me.

      I think the "system" is designed to swallow all money you throw at it and beg for more, regardless of quantities. It's a bottomless pit. Saying you will fill it with more people doesn't stop it from being bottomless.

      You've been hanging around the Tea Party/Ree Tardy crowd too much. "The System" works more-or-less as it is intended to work: to try to balance the schizophrenic, contradictory desires of the population.

      Seriously, look at the aggregate set of various polls. Here's a good article that helps sum it up.
      The problem is not "too much government." The problem is that everyone wants certain things but can't agree how to pay for it.

      And in a country where just 400 people control over 50% of the wealth, we have a major oligarchy problem as it stands.

    15. Re:Multitaksking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you're proposing the government encourage the endangering of our youth just so we can decrease the deficit? The reason that would be laughed at by the government (or anyone) is because that's some maniacal stuff.

    16. Re:Multitaksking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In capitalism, entrepreneurship continually replaces the workers displaced by efficiency gains brought about by new technology and processes. For example, over the course of a few years, most couriers found themselves replaced by fax machine technology. The new fax technology was faster, cheaper, and more reliable in almost all cases. Today, just few couriers exist to serve the market sector where the recipient absolutely must receive a physical document. For everything else, a fax is used.

      From a macro-economic perspective, an entire segment of labor was freed up for more efficient allocation. Those couriers laid off are now able to take jobs in other market sectors that are more in demand, and everyone who was using a courier is still able to send their documents via fax machines. As a result everyone's quality of life increases. We were all able to fax, plus we now had a new surplus of labor to allocate.

      This is nothing new. Technological advances have ended the careers of buddy whip manufacturers, typewriter repairmen, etc. Even fax machines have largely been replaced by email attachments. Record labels have struggled to retool as physical CD sales have been superseded by digital music distribution.

      While the individual pain of losing one's job is significant, this is how capitalism is supposed to work. The market continually refreshes itself and reallocates itself to ensure the most efficient use of labor and capital.

    17. Re:Multitaksking by GooberToo · · Score: 1

      Then again, many studies have show a large number of accidents are from drivers reacting to the sight of an unexpected police officer. Reports typically associate it to excessive speed but in reality, the accident would have been extremely unlikely had the police officer not been there or had the driver known where he was at and leisurely correct speed before he got there.

      I do believe DWI check points should not be reported as that likely does endanger the public. Just the same, study after study proves the majority of ticket income comes from speed traps where the speed limit is unsafely set too low for the sole purpose of generating revenue. Furthermore, driver error and distraction is, the vast majority of the time, attributed to excessive speed. Whereas, excessive speed is actually a contributing factor whereas driver distraction is believed to be the primary cause.

      In a nut shell, unless drivers are speeding in neighborhoods,high traffic or high pedestrian areas, which largely prevent excessive speed because of the traffic and high pedestrian densities, reasonable speeding is typically not creating an undue hazard to the public and as an offense, primarily serves to generate revenue for police departments and courts. The sad truth is, most speeding tickets are about revenue and has absolutely nothing to do with public safety.

      Seriously, think about it. If its as dangerous as the revenue generating propaganda wants us all to believe, you would be arrested and not ticketed. If you wave a firearm in public, you will be arrested. Please note, the propaganda typically compares speeding with firearms. If you drink too much and are on foot, you will be arrested. If you commit any number of other minor infractions, you will be arrested. And yet for something which is actively promoted as being akin to satin and killers of thousands every year, you simply get a ticket. The truth is, reasonable speeding in many (that's clearly not all) environments is simply not anywhere as dangerous as the propaganda says. In fact, if safety was their primary concern, you'd see a lot more neighborhood patrols and far less speed traps on highways.

      Lastly, I'll point out, most "highly trained" police drivers completed a weekend course, a week course, or extremely rarely, a two week course. Which means, they are less skilled to driving at high speeds than most amateur drivers. Not to mention, police, when they speed, account for a disproportionate number of accidents, injuries, and deaths - and yet they get a blank check. If this is truly safe, why can't amateur race drivers get wavers to speed? Ask yourself, is a police officer driver 100mph in heavy traffic to stop and ticket a driver doing ten miles per hour over the speed limit really creating public safety, or is this really about, "Do what I say and not what I do while I cash this check. Move along."?

    18. Re:Multitaksking by Kokuyo · · Score: 1

      Of course, but if you want to bring a system over to a completely now ideal, you first have to convince the people in charge (and those who think they are) that it's a good idea.

      Have you ever tried telling someone who's worked his ass off for forty years that it's not actually supposed to work like that anymore? That it's okay for some people not to work? That one doesn't need to work to be able to buy things?

      Yeah, you're labeled a socialist, stat. That their way of doing it doesn't make any economical sense either is completely beside the point the moment you become 'that commie'.

    19. Re:Multitaksking by sed+quid+in+infernos · · Score: 2

      And in a country where just 400 people control over 50% of the wealth

      The article you link doesn't say anything close to that. In fact, the claim Moore makes doesn't come close to saying that. He's saying that the richest 400 control more wealth than the poorest 50%. The poorest 50% don't control 50% of the wealth - that would be impossible unless wealth were evenly distributed.

      In fact, the article says that in 2009, the richest 400 controled 1.27 trillion, out of 53.1 trillion total wealth, or 2.4%. That's not close to 50%.

      Now, your conclusion that "we have a major oligarchy problem as it stands" may be correct even based on 400 people holding 2.4% of total household net worth. More relevant might be that 60% of the people only hold about 2.4% of the wealth. But claims like "400 people control 50% of the wealth" are false. It boggles the mind that someone would make such a claim and link as evidence an article that actually refutes it.

    20. Re:Multitaksking by slim · · Score: 1

      Full employment runs contrary to capitalism. The more efficient capitalism gets, the less workable the socialist idea of full employment becomes.

      With capitalism, growth is everything. So, if firms are streamlining and achieving the same production levels with less labour, traditional capitalism says the economy can grow, to produce more (and therefore also consume more), hence providing more employment and more wealth.

      I certainly think more people would be happy, if we reached some kind of consensus whereby everybody worked less, earned less, consumed less, produced less. If everyone currently in a full-time job cut their hours in half, they'd have to spend less, but they'd have a lot of lovely free time, and someone currently unemployed could work those remaining hours.

      But that utopian ideal is beset by problems. Lots of jobs aren't suited to sharing. So many people have a burning desire to earn as much as possible, that it would take draconian lawmaking to prevent them working full time. And, people love to consume. It seems to be innate.

    21. Re:Multitaksking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The deficit isn't just a symptom. That's would be akin to saying my spending more money than I receive on a paycheck is a symptom that I don't get paid well enough. A deficit by definition is a problem caused by spending more than you bring in. The reality is that spending needs to be cut to match income regardless of the reason for the difference. Further, the economy recovering has very little to do with the problems currently in the lower class. Our biggest problems are programs that should be helping to move people into a valid sector of the workforce, but have been broken in such a way they simply enable cyclical behavior of failure. Believe it or not, contrary to what politicians try to play in the media there is not class war with evil corporations trying to kill the poor, likewise, not all poor are simply too lazy to work and beyond help.

      It's easy to blame other people, easier to blame faceless entities, but the reality is the problem lies with the people and systems at the center of the issue.

    22. Re:Multitaksking by WillDraven · · Score: 1

      I don't think he was suggesting "we need less men" I think he was trying to say we need to expand those social programs to cover anybody without a job.

      --
      This is my sig. There are many like it but this one is mine.
    23. Re:Multitaksking by alienzed · · Score: 1

      I always thought a deficit was the symptom of spending more money than you have/make.

      --
      Never say never. Ah!! I did it again!
    24. Re:Multitaksking by NevarMore · · Score: 1

      Actually if you outright kill someone the family sues but that judgement tends to be less than if you don't kill someone and then they sue you for pain and suffering for their entire life. The way American courts work is that you can only sue once, so even if you have a minor injury you better be sure that you sue and cover ALL of your lifetime medical expenses and loss-of-use from an injury because you can't come back for more if it turns out to get worse.

      I do not have figures to support this anecdote.

    25. Re:Multitaksking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem isn't even that we have simply removed jobs, but rather, our work force didn't stay current with the jobs needed. There are literally thousands of jobs in my local area that have been vacant for a considerable amount of time. There simply aren't people who are a match for them. Generally they are in healthcare or information technology, yet the vast body of labor is uneducated manual laborers or generic degree holders with no experience. To make matters worse, the newer generations are being told to go to college and get a degree, yet not being informed that the degree needs to be in an actual in demand field nor that the degree simply gets them in the door. They graduate with no concept of how to actually be of value to a company, therefore, end up chronically underemployed. All of this is compounded by legislation that makes it nearly impossible for companies to hire entry level employees and provide them training due to mandatory benefits and pay requirements. Just to top it all off, we have social systems enabling people to simply choose not to participate, pushing the labor force participation percentages back down to around 64%, abysmal considering we have a higher rate than ever of dual income households/unwed individuals while politicians simultaneously try to use class warfare to draw voting distinctions in the classes.

      If you compare actual job numbers and potential job numbers with the total unemployed by state, almost everyone could have a job if it weren't for an necessarily complicated and self defeating system.

    26. Re:Multitaksking by NevarMore · · Score: 1

      a emergency room visit that didn't require any expensive tests or complex actions, just a doctor to look at me for 10 minutes and write up a prescription. o.

      It wasn't really an emergency then was it?

    27. Re:Multitaksking by Kokuyo · · Score: 1

      Not quite. Social programs mean you're accountable. They make you go find a job, don't they? And what is gained by that after we've already noticed that everyone having a job is not the way to go?

    28. Re:Multitaksking by bye · · Score: 1

      Full employment runs contrary to capitalism. The more efficient capitalism gets, the less workable the socialist idea of full employment becomes.

      Conversely, the fewer jobs there are, the less granted the capitalist idea of a free and safe country to run business becomes. (Eventually the risk and cost of tribes of unemployed pariahs roaming the wilderness will become a problem for business as well.)

      What is at risk here is not really the 'socialist idea of full employment' - 'full employment' is not the sign of a 'socialist' economy in any case but the sign of a 'stable' economy.

      At risk here is the fundamental force driving capitalism: that of trading scarce labor against capital. Computers are replacing humans at a very quick pace and it's not clear that the 'middle class' will be able to compete with that. Societies will have to (and will) change.

      The process has already begun a decade ago: right now the main structural and educational mistake a middle class US unemployed person has committed is that she does not speak Mandarin Chinese, is not willing to work for $2 per day and is not willing to live in China.

    29. Re:Multitaksking by Shadow99_1 · · Score: 1

      Well It was in the sense it couldn't wait, I had no idea before going there that I wouldn't end up dead in the next few hours if left untreated. I haven't described why I went, but I had one foot swell up to easily twice its size and I think rightfully freaked out a little bit since I'd never had that happen. I hadn't been bitten or stung by anything so it is more than a bit abnormal. As a normal person I felt it required attention that day and not 'sometime next month' as a doctor's office visit was going to be. Lucky me I found out within 10 minutes that it was an allergic reaction and I take a bit of x medicine and avoid the allergen and I'd be fine. The doctor agreed I made the right call, letting it go on as is would have meant possible death as the reaction spread. That it wasn't complex to solve upon seeing a doctor does not mean it's not a relative emergency.

      --
      we are all invisible unless we choose otherwise
    30. Re:Multitaksking by Kokuyo · · Score: 1

      I think you are contradicting yourself. More employees doing the same work means more bureaucratic overhead. That is not the point of streamlining your business processes.

      Let me make a different example: If someone is a stay-at-home mother or father, do they not contribute to society? Don't we bitch and moan every day about all those kids who get parked in front of the TV and then behave like they were fresh from the caves? So a stable situation at home with a parent present should be in our best interest.

      Yet if a family wants to go down that route, at least here, the working adult needs to shoulder the whole burden. They need to make more money (often thus becoming a complete working horse with little relaxation and burning out quickly), the 'I could lose my job and we'd all starve' anxiety would grow and so on.

      People who don't have a job aren't necessarily not working. Unless we start to honor that, we're basically fucked and it will only get worse.

    31. Re:Multitaksking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People without the brainpower to realize that this is not a word, annoy me.

      They already are. Maybe you just lack the brainpower to realize that you shouldn't have a comma there unless you want it to sound like an entreaty.

    32. Re:Multitaksking by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      Whoosh. Not talking about payouts, talking about costs to the society.

    33. Re:Multitaksking by XxtraLarGe · · Score: 1

      It boggles the mind that someone would make such a claim and link as evidence an article that actually refutes it.

      Not if you operate under the assumption that providing a link is sufficient enough for most people to buy your argument without actually reading the source...

      --
      Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
    34. Re:Multitaksking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      P.S. The deficit isn't the problem.

      "Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen six, result happiness.
      Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pound ought and six, result misery."
      Charles Dickens, David Copperfield

    35. Re:Multitaksking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In an ideal(istic) world, the labor savings that automation and machinery enable should be shared equally among the population.

      What's really happened is that someone buys a machine, lays off all the workers the machine replaces, and reaps direct profit from the use of the machine. The machine owner realizes greater profits, and those who can afford goods get them cheaper as a result, but the workforce dwindles and most people's real lifestyles degrade.

      The problem is that the owner of the machine is seen as a more efficient producer, because people don't get rich by enriching the lives of those around them, they get rich by making the lives of the people around them as hard as possible.

      Making goods automatically is supposed to bring everyone up. Instead, it brings a few up, and displaces many more.

      Then it gets even worse when the inevitable pollution from the machines is not held as the responsibility of the machine owner, but instead is held as the responsibility of society at large, and the people who were displaced have to share the burden of pollution on top of the loss of lifestyle from a machine that was supposed to help everyone.

    36. Re:Multitaksking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ah, there's the solution; If there's anyone (worth less than $500k) who isn't paying 48% marginal tax rate on their income, ship them off to some third world socialist country like Meixoco or Canadiastan. If you can't pull your weight here, the top 2% doesn't need you.

    37. Re:Multitaksking by NevarMore · · Score: 1

      Thanks for clarifying, I realize that my comment may have been a bit offensive and apologize if it was. I'm sure you're familiar with the tale about people that go into the ER for heartburn or the flu and then complain about the costs.

      Its always a tough call to make if something needs care now, soon, today, or this week.

    38. Re:Multitaksking by cdrguru · · Score: 1

      That had an overlap when I ended up between jobs and had a hospital visit, which sans insurance (it's tied to employment in the US) meant I suddenly owed $5000 USD for effectively a emergency room visit that didn't require any expensive tests or complex actions, just a doctor to look at me for 10 minutes and write up a prescription.

      What you missed out on were the lessons on how to work the system. Sure, you had a $5000 hospital bill and they kept calling you until you paid, right? Maybe they threatened to sue you if you didn't pay?

      What people miss in situations like this is two things: (a) a lot of people simply don't pay, ever, and (b) ever heard the phrase "blood from a stone"? The fact that a lot of people don't pay means the hospital has to figure out how to get paid enough from everyone that does pay. This is just cost-shifting and is the rule with medical care in the US. It means that the prices keep going up because it is spread across a smaller and smaller number of people paying full price - the rest are either paying some incredibly discounted price because of a deal with an insurance company or the government or they just are paying at all.

      The "blood from a stone" concept here is very simple. You have no money, no job, nothing. OK, so what does that mean? It means you are judgement-proof. Nothing they can do to you will hurt you financially and the US does not imprison people for bankruptcy. Therefore when someone says they will sue you or ruin your credit rating it is an hollow threat. It means nothing. They will likely realize this early on and forget about suing or anything else. They may keep harrassing you, but there are actual laws against doing too much of that. End result is no more bill from the hospital. It isn't like they can actually refuse to treat you.

      The one problem with this is some people's concept of dignity. It isn't considered dignified in some circles to not be able to pay your bills. People die in the US every day because they cannot offend their sense of dignity in matters like this. You need to get your head around the idea that it is a clear choice: dignity in death or survival. And there is very, very little dignity in being dead.

    39. Re:Multitaksking by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Irregardless

      People without the brainpower to realize that this is not a word, annoy me.

      Er, GP said regardless, which is a word.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    40. Re:Multitaksking by Dunbal · · Score: 0
      irregardless

      /rgrdls/ Show Spelled[ir-i-gahrd-lis]

      –adverb Nonstandard .

      Use irregardless in a Sentence

      Origin: 1910–15; ir-2 (probably after irrespective ) + regardless

      —Can be confused: irregardless, regardless (see usage note at the current entry ).

      —Usage note

      Irregardless is considered nonstandard because of the two negative elements ir- and -less. It was probably formed on the analogy of such words as irrespective, irrelevant, and irreparable. Those who use it, including on occasion educated speakers, may do so from a desire to add emphasis. Irregardless first appeared in the early 20th century and was perhaps popularized by its use in a comic radio program of the 1930s.

      Thank you for making me look this up. Sometimes it's hard to keep track of all the words in the 5 languages I speak fluently. In this case irregardless came from irrespectivo, since I am currently in Spanish mode in a Spanish country. It most certainly is a common word in Spanish.

      As for the rest of your post: n/a, I am not American, not in North America, and certainly not a "Tea Party" member. However my comment has a US slant since that's where I get most of my news and it's still the economy that runs (and will sink) the world.

      I'm sorry you feel defensive of your political views. I understand that party slogans (which certainly are not at all related to party performance) in the US are bleated immediately whenever a political comment is made. From your comment I deduce you favor the "Democratic/Big government" point of view. Well whatever, because you are getting big government and big deficits REGARDLESS of which party is in charge. I was trying to appeal to reason, not to politics.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    41. Re:Multitaksking by justNoperator · · Score: 1

      Lastly, I'll point out, most "highly trained" police drivers completed a weekend course, a week course, or extremely rarely, a two week course. Which means, they are less skilled to driving at high speeds than most amateur drivers.

      I assume you meant Amateur Race Drivers, since I would think that by the time one makes it to being a police officer you would have been driving long enough to no longer be considered an amateur driver and thus be more skilled. These Amateur Race Drivers that you speak of, are they the ones that mainly drive in a circle, you know, go fast turn left, repeat. Yep, never see wrecks at those races. Why is it they have things like roll cages, wear helmets, fire retardant suits, have crash crews and ambulances standing by for these highly skilled amateur drivers, oh sorry, Amateur Race Drivers.

      ...why can't amateur race drivers get wavers to speed?

      Maybe because they're not the only ones on the road. Besides how much more skill does it take to drive in a circle behind somebody else driving in a circle with none of the other drivers talking on a cell phone, eating lunch, trying to read the TPS report, texting their secretary and putting on their make-up.

    42. Re:Multitaksking by GodfatherofSoul · · Score: 1

      There are three huge problems with what you just stated. First off, our recent Free Market system is exporting jobs overseas. Second, we're importing even more illegal immigrants to do labor work that Americans used to do. So, jobs aren't disappearing due to "efficiency," the Free Market is just handing them over to foreigners.

      Finally, there are a lot of jobs disappearing because of cuts and shifts in government spending. Our infrastructure is being horribly maintained and not keeping up with the pace of other countries because these future proofing programs are easy to cut without the impact being immediately felt. Hell, even the IRS auditors that we keep cutting (who generate about 10/1 revenue for money spent on them) do work we need.

      It's really simplistic to think that jobs are disappearing because the Coca-Cola plant has an automated bottle capper.

      --
      I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
    43. Re:Multitaksking by Politburo · · Score: 1

      [Citation Needed]

    44. Re:Multitaksking by Ghengis+Khak · · Score: 1

      Personally, I have no problems with the Senators calling for this app to be removed, as long as they do not threaten to pass some law about it. The existence of this app is no business of the Federal Government. If the Senators want to express their personal opinion that this app is a bad idea, that is their right.

      I guess I agree that, in principle, a senator is just like any other person and has the right to speak their mind about whatever they want. But on the other hand, they are not like any other person because they seem to generally feel like they have the right (the obligation even!) and means to interfere in other people's lives by enacting some kind of policy to give force to their ideas. It is what they do.

      Given all this, I'd say that the prospect of the federal government at least trying to insert itself into this situation is likely.

    45. Re:Multitaksking by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      keeping them alive and healthy does cut the deficit.

      Identifying current locations of DUI checkpoints does more to undermine the government (lazy cops unable to actually patrol, but instead just block a road and wait for everyone to come to them) and doesn't do much to get drunks off the road (note that something like 10 times more arrests at DUI checkpoints are for non-drinking related offenses). I disagree with your premise that DUI checkpoints does anything to keep them alive and healthy. I think it would be a reasonable assumption that they will be driving home drunk and the only thing it affects is their likelihood of being arrested shortly after using the app. And the fact that it addresses their likelihood of arrest is a failure of the government. But you are right that keeping them out of jail does help cut the deficit, but I've long since given up on the pretense of DUI laws being for safety.

    46. Re:Multitaksking by Totenglocke · · Score: 1

      P.S., we've had a deficit for several decades - are you trying to claim that we've been in a recession for the last 60 years? That would be news for everyone in the world.

      Oh, and as for the "lack of decent jobs", there are plenty of decent jobs - what we lack is people to do those jobs. It's really annoying hearing that something that a trained monkey can do is a "decent" job. Just because the world moved forward from the 1800's and many Americans refused to get an education and adapt to the new world doesn't mean there's a "lack of decent jobs" - it's a lack of decent Americans.

      --
      "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
    47. Re:Multitaksking by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      When the Senators in question (or other legislators) introduce a bill to make this app illegal, then is the time to get angry and up in arms. On the other hand, if you disagree with these Senators, it is perfectly acceptable to express that, just don't go overboard and accuse them of "censorship" until they actually start to try and censor.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    48. Re:Multitaksking by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Basically, the problem is that in bad times, Congress is afraid to not continue increasing spending because they are afraid that will cause the times to get even worse and in good times they see no reason not to increase spending.

      And that's not a bad plan. The problem is that they didn't spend money. They gave it away to rich people. The New Deal worked better because it paid the poor. Trickle-up economics has been shown to work, while trickle-down has been shown to not work. Unfortunately, we've been stuck with voodoo economics since 1980, regardless of the party in power. When the bailouts were all aimed at making sure "too big to fail" didn't, it didn't help the economy. But building infrastructure with unskilled/semiskilled labor from the unemployment pools would have helped the economy.
      br.We would have done as much good for the middle class with the last rounds of bailouts to just flush that much money down the toilet. And no, not spending it isn't the same thing, because the more than we waste, the weaker the dollar, and that actually helps the middle class, for so long as China illegally benchmarks their currency on the dollar.

    49. Re:Multitaksking by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      You'd be hard pressed to find amateur race drivers who turn in one direction only. Since you are speaking from the position of complete ignorance, we can just ignore everything else you say as well.

      Bonus points for anyone that sees your stupidity and assumes the opposite (though a logical fallacy, it is correct in this case).

    50. Re:Multitaksking by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      Either you were not alive for the 70s and 80s, or you lived in a different world than I do. What has been shown not to work is taking money from productive people through taxes and giving it to non-productive people through government expenditures.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    51. Re:Multitaksking by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      What has been shown not to work is taking money from productive people through taxes and giving it to non-productive people through government expenditures.

      That's exactly what I said. Taking money from taxes and giving it to corporations will never work.

    52. Re:Multitaksking by GooberToo · · Score: 1

      I assume you meant Amateur Race Drivers

      Yes, that's what I mean.

      These Amateur Race Drivers that you speak of, are they the ones that mainly drive in a circle, you know, go fast turn left, repeat.

      You really need to get out more. There is a huge world of motor sports completely outside of NASCAR.

      Why is it they have things like roll cages, wear helmets, fire retardant suits, have crash crews and ambulances standing by for these highly skilled amateur drivers, oh sorry, Amateur Race Drivers.

      Okay, clearly you are retarded and had to boast this to the world. And in proving to the world you are retarded, you the entire point went completely over your head.

      The fact of the matter is, "highly trained" police drivers is like saying, "expert shooter" because you once saw a firearm at a gun show. Expert police driver, with extremely few exceptions, actually means dip shit that knows how to press a brake and gas pedal.

      And to come full circle back to your remarks, yes accidents happen when people drive extremely aggressively and fast. That's not what the topic was about, but it largely does describe police chasing people for petty crimes. Generally, the police officer creates a risk several orders of magnitude higher than the danger he's supposedly saving us from.

      So despite you proving you are retarded, you actually proved the point - police ARE a danger, greater than what they are writing a ticket for, to everyone when they are chasing people to give them a ticket.

    53. Re:Multitaksking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thanks for proving to everyone you're a complete fucking idiot. Chances are, you're so fucking stupid you have no idea why, "[Citation Needed]", makes you look like a complete fucking idiot.

      Go research why you're a fucking idiot. Learn when and where references are appropriate. This is not one of those places. Such stupidity deserves no other response.

    54. Re:Multitaksking by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      I will qualify my initial statement taking money from productive people and/or corporations through taxation and giving it to non-productive people and/or corporations through government expenditures does not work. The best way to improve the economy is to reduce the power of politicians and bureaucrats.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    55. Re:Multitaksking by Isaac-1 · · Score: 1

      It was the last state, I was 18 at the time and had the right to drink for a few days before the law went into effect. (In theory the law was grandfathered to not do this to people, but in reality the grandfathering date was based upon when it was enacted not when it went into effect).

    56. Re:Multitaksking by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Since asking the politicians to reduce their own power won't work, and voters won't vote in people who claim to want to reduce their own power, then that's as useless as saying that aliens coming to Earth and giving us replicators and transporters is the best way to improve the economy. It may be true, but it is not relevant to US politics.

      Furthermore, you are apparently anti-welfare enough to not ever address my point. The New Deal wasn't welfare, but it was a large government expense to boost the economy. What we have today is welfare for the rich. Is your multi-billion dollar corporation in trouble? Just ask for a handout. But anyone affected by the economy who asks for help is a freeloading oaf.

      End welfare as it is. People on welfare are either incapable of working, in which case they should be rehabilitated if possible or "dealt with" however society feels appropriate for a permanent disability (whether welfare as we know it today, or some other system) and those capable of working who do not work should be working. Rather than worrying about how many trillions to spend on "defense" (when defense is exclusively exercised on foreign soil), we could spend less than Iraq is costing to employ every unemployed person in the country. And if they were employed, then we'd be doing something with them. Have them building things, cleaning things, actually out there growing the economy. But that would result in a larger government, as they'd be employing more people, so I'm sure you'd decide it was bad in principle, no matter whether it actually helped the economy.

    57. Re:Multitaksking by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      One would hope that Senators would refrain from publicizing personal opinions that might lead to inappropriate legislation. When they are described as $Senator_x rather than $Inconsequential_Person_x their opinions carry additional weight as public figures. Sucks to be them in some senses, but they do lose the opportunity to be 'private' citizens.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    58. Re:Multitaksking by treeves · · Score: 1

      No, no , no. Alcohol is EtOH, not OTOH.

      --
      ...the future crusty old bastards are already drinking the Kool-Aid.
    59. Re:Multitaksking by treeves · · Score: 1

      Go back and read it again: 'regardless' and 'irregardless' were both used in the same post.

      --
      ...the future crusty old bastards are already drinking the Kool-Aid.
    60. Re:Multitaksking by Ghengis+Khak · · Score: 1

      One would hope that Senators would refrain from publicizing personal opinions that might lead to inappropriate legislation. When they are described as $Senator_x rather than $Inconsequential_Person_x their opinions carry additional weight as public figures. Sucks to be them in some senses, but they do lose the opportunity to be 'private' citizens.

      I wouldn't assume that everything a politician says has the weight of his office behind it. For example, if Harry Reid mentions to his family over dinner that he doesn't like soccer, that shouldn't (and probably wouldn't) be taken to mean that he has any policy goals in mind relating to soccer. However in the case at hand, the fact that these four Senators got together and wrote a letter (probably on some official Congressional letterhead, though I don't know for sure) and probably publicized the letter indicates to me that this opinion is their "official" one.

    61. Re:Multitaksking by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      I don' t think your solution is any more realistic than mine. What happens if they don't show up for work? Or if they do show up, but don't work? Or work in ways contrary to instructions? Or...? You get my point. I like the idea, I just don't think it would work. There are several reasons. The first is what I am pointing out with those questions. There is a reason why people are not gainfully employed. That reason is not always the fault of the individual, but it often is.
      Another problem with the idea is this, if these things are really going to make these people productive, aren't there already people doing them? If so, what happens to them when you start having a bunch of people doing the same thing rather than being on welfare? If not, why not?
      As I said, I like the idea, but I think the problems with it would cause it to be unsuccessful. The details as to why I think it would be unsuccessful would require a more in depth discussion than this forum allows. However, it is the right sort of answer to social problems.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    62. Re:Multitaksking by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      I don' t think your solution is any more realistic than mine.

      I would expect that from your statements so far. Conservatives expect the worst from everyone (except themselves) and liberals expect that everyone else is more like them. Ever read Animal Farm? I hate to take a work of fiction and hold it up as a reality, but it's more like Orwell's essay on communism than anything else. Your complaint is "what about the cats?" Well, there aren't that many. And, if you remember from the novel, the cat was the most irrelevant character (by design). Most people actually have some self worth, and so they *want* to work. They'd rather spend 8 hours a day digging ditches and get $50 for their trouble than not be able to find any work and have everyone tell them that they are inadequate (implicit in refusing them jobs). And if they don't work? So what. That's money you'd pay anyway in welfare. I'd estimate the number who would take the offered job and then refuse to do it to be about 5%, maybe a little higher if the evaluators for permanent disability are more strict (there are a number of people who would rather starve than work and don't have any identifiable disability).

      Another problem with the idea is this, if these things are really going to make these people productive, aren't there already people doing them?

      Nope. The Hoover Dam wouldn't have been built if the feds didn't make it happen with the WPA. It doesn't matter that it's been profitable and a private entity could have made money doing the same thing, because they didn't. The same is true of all the city halls that were built under the WPA as well. Find useful work that isn't being done and get it done. They did it 80 years ago. And your argument is "we've done it before, but we are too stupid to figure it out now."

      Or are you playing devil's advocate by presuming the worst possible implementation and arguing against that?

    63. Re:Multitaksking by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      So, basically, you didn't answer my questions. You apparently have never seen what happens in a job situation where one person out of 10-20 is a malcontent. I have known people who were on and off of government assistance. A significant number of them were lazy, dishonest and unreliable. Nothing was ever their fault. Others were hard workers who had received some bad breaks (whether because of bad luck or one or two bad decisions at the wrong time). I worked for a company that hired a lot of otherwise unemployable people. Their workforce could be divided into two groups: management/skilled labor, unskilled labor. For the unskilled labor position they were willing to hire anybody who came through the door when they had an open position. It was hard work, for little pay. The unskilled labor fell into three categories. 1. people who worked hard for a short while before using the recommendation of the bosses to get a better job. 2. people who worked there for the rest of their life because no place else would tolerate their idiosyncrasies (one was a barely functional alcoholic who only bathed/washed his clothes because the boss insisted that he do so). 3. people who continued their bad work habits and either stopped showing up after a short while or were fired for not getting the work done.
      BTW, Hoover Dam was not built by the WPA. Hoover Dam was built by a joint venture formed by six companies for the purpose of bidding on the job. One of those companies is now the Bechtel Corporation. I think from your earlier comments that you would call that corporate welfare.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    64. Re:Multitaksking by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      So, basically, you didn't answer my questions.

      You asked questions then proceeded like your questions somehow proved it was unviable. So I figured they were rhetorical. And it's not worth my time to answer questions about a plan that doesn't exist and won't be implemented when it seems to me that if the questions aren't rhetorical that they are an attempt to sabotage my plan without actually discussing it, but instead pointing out some supposed flaws and focusing on why it isn't perfect, when it could very well be the best plan ever conceived and still not be perfect.

      So yeah, I'll ignore any question I like for whatever reason I like.

      BTW, Hoover Dam was not built by the WPA.

      I used "WPA" to be everything the government paid to build things. The TVA is covered under that, but wasn't technically WPA. The Hoover Dam was considered to be built by the feds. I did a search on who built it, and got The United States government's construction of Hoover Dam, a hydroelectric and reservoir project started on the Colorado River in 1931, was one of the most important developments in Las Vegas history, dramatically affecting its population to the present.

      So regardless of who got the profits from it, it was profitable and did employ many during the Great Depression and wouldn't have been done if the feds didn't bankroll it. So, are you arguing to be a pedant, or do you think that the Hoover Dam is a bad example of the government spending money to employ people doing something that wouldn't have been done if the government didn't intervene?

    65. Re:Multitaksking by SharpFang · · Score: 1

      do NOT confuse costs to the society with costs to the government. These may seem (and pretend to be) the same, but they are quite a different thing.

      --
      45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
    66. Re:Multitaksking by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      I'm saying that politicians would say that the ways that the "stimulus" bill of 2009 worked was similar to the way that building Hoover Dam worked.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    67. Re:Multitaksking by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      Even bigger whoosh. I'm still talking about costs to SOCIETY. Specifically society. Not government, corporations, families or any other separate entity, but society as a whole.

    68. Re:Multitaksking by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      And they'd be lying politicians. I wasn't discussing what politicians would say, but what actually happens. The two are rarely related.

    69. Re:Multitaksking by Gerzel · · Score: 1

      I yearn for the days when the US was supposed to be a republican society. Government's role was to help its citizens be able to secure life, liberty and their pursuit of happiness. The latter was originally pursuit of property but the founders realized the danger there. I wish the present was as clear and fully minded.

      Note: "republican" meaning based upon a republic model and not necessarily on the ideals of a certain political party.

      All things in moderation, property and moderation included.

    70. Re:Multitaksking by Gerzel · · Score: 1

      Scratch that. I wish US citizens would think of their nation more as a Republic and less as a Capitalist support system. The old days had some horrible things to em as well.

    71. Re:Multitaksking by SharpFang · · Score: 1

      Then the biggest whoosh to you. Government doesn't give a shit about cost to society. Legislation follows cost to the government so your reflections are moot.

      --
      45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
    72. Re:Multitaksking by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      Logical fallacy. One of the cornerstones of any government is self-preservation. Stable society is a requirement for self-preservation of government.

      Please stop reciting tea party dogmas as absolute truth.

    73. Re:Multitaksking by SharpFang · · Score: 1

      Again, you're making a naive assumption that actions of government are based on wisdom, foresight, logic and/or best interest of the society as a whole.
      The fact that destabilized society might destroy the government in some nondescript future has never stopped a politician from an act that would bring an immediate profit.

      --
      45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
    74. Re:Multitaksking by SharpFang · · Score: 1

      You're making a naive assumption that actions of government are based on wisdom, foresight, logic and/or best interest of the society as a whole.
      The fact that a destabilized society might destroy the government in some nondescript future has never stopped a politician from an act that would bring an immediate profit.

      --
      45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
    75. Re:Multitaksking by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      A single politician, certainly. I'm yet to see an example where a government of any meaningful society has been just one politician. In general, there are far more of various bureaucrats and workers in any given government then politicians by an order of magnitude at least, as they are the ones keeping the government machine working. And they are the ones whos inertia makes it hard-to-impossible for even a group of politicians, much less a single one to inflict lethal damage to government, or its underlying society.

      A great historical example of this is Caligula.

  13. Is there a law against harming public safety? by MadJo · · Score: 4, Insightful

    And in what capacity do these apps encourage excessive consumption of alcohol?

    1. Re:Is there a law against harming public safety? by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      anything can encourage that.
      the problem with apples rules are that they really wouldn't allow even donald duck comics stories from seventies. would they allow britney spears? and why do they then allow a lot of music with lyrics that encourage drinking..

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    2. Re:Is there a law against harming public safety? by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      No, they discourage the seizure of vehicles and assets because of reduced drunk driving prosecutions. Because somehow politicians have it in their head that taking your car and auctioning it, and imposing a 5 or 6 digit fine on you, will somehow bring more income than the lost tax revenue while you're in jail plus the cost of keeping you in jail.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    3. Re:Is there a law against harming public safety? by socrplayr813 · · Score: 1

      My job, and any number of other aspects of my life, potentially encourage excessive consumption of alcohol. An app that I would have to go out of my way to download in no way affects my consumption. I can, however, see some people being more likely to drink and drive if they think they can get away with it.

      Now, I'm not thrilled about what the apps will tend to be used for, but it's not my place or anyone else's to remove them simply because they COULD be used for something bad. I own a gun, knives, and any number of standard tools and other day-to-day objects that could be used to cause harm to someone. Any tool can be used for good or evil and it's not appropriate to try to control them, as long as they have a legitimate purpose. Even if they don't, I'm not convinced it's anyone's business until something bad is actually going to happen, which can't be accurately determined in 99.99% of cases.

      The problems we have are societal, and no amount of this type of control will fix them.

      Let me say that again:
      The problems we have are societal, and no amount of this type of control will fix them.

      --
      The confidence of ignorance will always overcome the indecision of knowledge.
    4. Re:Is there a law against harming public safety? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, they discourage the seizure of vehicles and assets because of reduced drunk driving prosecutions. Because somehow politicians have it in their head that taking your car and auctioning it, and imposing a 5 or 6 digit fine on you, will somehow bring more income than the lost tax revenue while you're in jail plus the cost of keeping you in jail.

      Scenario A: Productive taxpayer earns $50000/year, sends $1000 to the county/municipality, $3000 to the state, and $10000 to the feds.

      Scenario B: Jailed taxpayer earns $0/year, sends $5000 to the county/municipality (courts, fines, jails), $1000 to the state (private prisons get a cut), but gets $3000 in EITC from the feds.

      Fuck drunk drivers, but the present system is merely the broken-window fallacy writ large: Overall economic production declines, but the dollars get diverted from private and federal hands to more local governments. Since most cops are local, it's profitable for the county/municipality.

    5. Re:Is there a law against harming public safety? by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      Who pays for the prisons? I am unaware how it works in the US. Does the county/municipality get a credit from the Feds, or do the Feds pay for the prison? Or is it paid by the county? If the local government has to foot the incarceration bill then it's just mindless government unable to see further than the paper currently on the desk. However if the Feds are paying one way or another, then this is 100% a scam to keep or get money from the Feds with full prisons. Oh and by the way our prisons are full, send us more money while you're at it...

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    6. Re:Is there a law against harming public safety? by mobby_6kl · · Score: 1

      It doesn't, but you know what does encourage excessive consumption of alcohol? Fucking politicians, that's what.

      I rarely drink alcohol at all, let alone when driving, but I'd use this app (for android, at least) just to avoid being harassed by the police. I don't know about the US, but the cops here often also feel the need to check your spare tire, first aid kit, reflective vest, and some other crap if they don't manage to bust you for drinking. Fuck digging that all out from the trunk full of luggage and shopping bags.

  14. Police: Adapt and be more effective by Aqualung812 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I always get a chuckle from the police that freak out over apps like this.

    Police: Learn to use the false sense of security that these apps give lawbreakers.

    Run the same apps in your police car. Have the department buy you a smartphone if needed, they are much cheaper than some of your other police toys.
    When a speedtrap app spots you, you'll get an alert since it thinks you're just another speeder. Move 1 mile against traffic and trap the speeders before they get the alert.
    When a DUI checkout app spots your checkpoint, post a couple of police on the obvious alternate routes that DUI people would use to avoid the posted checkpoint.
    Hell, save time and post the checkpoint yourself, and then give a closer inspection to all of the people that take the gravel road the GPS recommends to avoid the checkpoint that NO ONE ever drives on. Your % of DUI drivers should be higher in that group.

    These things make it easier on the police, not harder, if they would adapt to it!

    --
    Grammer Nazis - I mod you "troll" unless you actually add something on-topic. Yes, I know I have mispellings in my sig.
    1. Re:Police: Adapt and be more effective by slim · · Score: 2

      Yay arms races. They always benefit society.

    2. Re:Police: Adapt and be more effective by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Normally I lean towards the "keep the police out of my life" side of things, and anything that would allow me to avoid them is a plus, however I feel the need to agree with Aqualung812. Instead of complaining about the app, simply adapting to the presence of it should make for a higher catch, in less time, increasing the overall benifit to both society (less drunks on the road) and the law enforcement (4 cops checking the BAC of a bunch of people who haven't been drinking is just a waste of taxpayer cash).

      No, I don't like the nanny-state concept, and I'm all for "let me live my life as I see fit, as long as I'm not hurting someone else", but I'd agree that this App seems like a good thing for the local police department.

    3. Re:Police: Adapt and be more effective by Aqualung812 · · Score: 2

      So, you think it is better to try to ban an app (only on non-jailbroken iPhones, as Androids and rooted devices can certainly still run these apps) and pretended it isn't something to worry about anymore than to use the app to your advantage?

      I'm not suggesting an arms race. That would be more like trying to detect the users of the app with some tech, and then more tech to hide the users (see radar detector detector detectors).

      I'm suggesting turning your adversary's weapon into your advantage. Very different from an arms race.

      --
      Grammer Nazis - I mod you "troll" unless you actually add something on-topic. Yes, I know I have mispellings in my sig.
    4. Re:Police: Adapt and be more effective by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You make at least three erroneous assumptions:
      1) The police's budget has not been slashed repeatedly and they can actually afford these smartphones.
      2) Bureaucracy permits the acquisition of these new-fangled non-sanctioned devices in under 10 years.
      3) Declining standards of recruitment did not results in the police force consisting of technologically illiterate morons.

    5. Re:Police: Adapt and be more effective by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      most people driving under influence wouldn't care to check such an app, it's an extra bother.

      there's this saying that "nobody would drive drunk if they were sober", a reference to drunks who use "i was drunk, it's not my fault" excuse when they get caught DUI.

      but posting information where you saw cops.. well, that should be free to report. and if somebody doesn't like that kind of freedom, they can always move to syria.

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    6. Re:Police: Adapt and be more effective by slim · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'm not making a point about whether or not it's right to suppress (not ban) the app, here.

      I'm just pointing out that if the police start doing what you suggest, an arms race is pretty much inevitable.

      - public use app to avoid DUI checks
      - police reposition DUI checks to defeat the app
      - public leave bad app reviews since app is now giving inaccurate results
      - developers somehow improve accuracy of app
      - GOTO 10

    7. Re:Police: Adapt and be more effective by ktappe · · Score: 1

      [police], save time and post the checkpoint yourself, and then give a closer inspection to all of the people that take the gravel road the GPS recommends to avoid the checkpoint that NO ONE ever drives on. Your % of DUI drivers should be higher in that group.

      These things make it easier on the police, not harder, if they would adapt to it!

      Please mod parent up. It makes a lot of sense. Of course, that's why the police won't take any of the suggestions....

      --
      "We can categorically state we have not released man-eating badgers into the area." - UK military spokesman, July 2007
    8. Re:Police: Adapt and be more effective by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      ...which is all moronic.

      You don't need special purpose Constitution shredding roadblocks in order to catch the serious problem drinkers.

      That's pretty much what the definition of a problem drinker is: Someone that gets caught on non-holidays.

      All that's needed is good old-fashioned non-Gestapo police work.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    9. Re:Police: Adapt and be more effective by Splab · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Interestingly, here in Denmark, police welcome these kinds of apps. They are not in the business of writing tickets, but they try to make roads safer; if an app alerts that there's a speed trap on some major highway, that means a full afternoon of *most* people driving like they should have been.

      During high drinking seasons (Christmas and Easter for instance) they are always out in the newspapers warning people that they will be making more checks and focusing on this.

      But of course, for this to make sense it requires the police to be in the business of preventing and not collecting.

    10. Re:Police: Adapt and be more effective by nedlohs · · Score: 1

      Great ideas. Screw the consitution, that makes life much easier for the police.

    11. Re:Police: Adapt and be more effective by DanoTime · · Score: 2

      Well you clearly highlight what the reasoning is over here in the States.

      It is all about collecting money - and this story says to me that local municipalities want to ensure a constant stream of revenue so they talk to their senators about it - the senators talk to Apple about it... Apple talks to the developer about it... and the developer laughs and creates a story how they are being targeted - making sure to include the company or site name, and drive business from interested bystanders.

      Again, it is all about the money.

    12. Re:Police: Adapt and be more effective by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is so true. The state of Maryland just introduced legislation for absurdly high and on going penalties for driving offenses ($$$ per year/per point on your license.) Reason given for introducing such legislation... we need more money. Road safety never entered the debate.

    13. Re:Police: Adapt and be more effective by kevinNCSU · · Score: 2

      They actually do this in America too, but people don't pay attention and then spout off about the police collecting money. They even do advertisements on the radios warning that police will be out in force issuing tickets for aggressive driving for the next 2 weeks and stuff like that, and there's always many a news story about how tough the enforcement campaigns will be during holiday travel seasons.

    14. Re:Police: Adapt and be more effective by hedwards · · Score: 1

      The problem is that having people avoid the checks doesn't imply that fewer people are going to be drinking and driving. It's just as likely that it means that the same people who were drinking and driving will take an alternate route home in order to bypass the check points.

      It's the probably of an area where there are no arrests, it could be that no crimes are being committed or it could be that there just aren't any arrests of people that do commit crimes.

      Around here in WA state we have those adverts to that say that they'll be stepping up enforcement actions during particular weekends where DUI related fatalities are more common, but they do not tell you where the checkpoints are going to be because they want people to avoid the DUI ticket by taking a cab or otherwise not driving under the influence.

    15. Re:Police: Adapt and be more effective by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think the police would need to "reposition DUI checks". They just need to have a few officers watch the alternate routes for reckless/erratic drivers. Safe drivers taking those alternate routes would not be interrupted, but drunk drivers would likely be caught. The result is that the app would be great for people that just want to avoid the checkpoint hassle, but it would be of little use to drunk drivers.

    16. Re:Police: Adapt and be more effective by cayenne8 · · Score: 1

      most people driving under influence wouldn't care to check such an app, it's an extra bother.

      Actually..it is the FIRST thing I'll be checking when about to leave the bar. I have Trapster, but that is only speed traps and cameras....I've just downloaded the others and trust me, those will be the first things I check before I have to get home after having a few...

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    17. Re:Police: Adapt and be more effective by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except that is illegal in the US. They have to post the check points.

    18. Re:Police: Adapt and be more effective by slim · · Score: 1

      It may be illegal in the UK too. I think the law should be changed.

      Forbidding covert speed cameras is like forbidding plain clothes policemen.

    19. Re:Police: Adapt and be more effective by randyleepublic · · Score: 0

      That's funny how you folks in Denmark have stuff like justice and policies that are helpful to individuals and stuff. How quaint. I sure am glad we don't breed a bunch of weaklings in the US by having pillowy soft government like that. Here you sink or swim. Keeps us strong and stuff. It's not always pretty, but it's got to be that way or we'd be all happy and stuff. No future in that, you know what I'm saying.

      --
      Social Credit would solve everything...
    20. Re:Police: Adapt and be more effective by dasdrewid · · Score: 1

      Hell, save time and post the checkpoint yourself, and then give a closer inspection to all of the people that take the gravel road the GPS recommends to avoid the checkpoint that NO ONE ever drives on. Your % of DUI drivers should be higher in that group.

      There was a national news story about a state trooper doing just this. They put one of those big light up signs on a major highway announcing a DUI checkpoint like 2 miles up ahead (they were required by state law to put up signs warning of a checkpoint, otherwise it was an illegal search and seizure or something like that), but there was a junction 1/2 mile ahead. They then put their checkpoint 1 1/2 miles down the smaller highways. I think the story came up because someone was suing that the sign didn't meet the requirements of a sign announcing the checkpoint because it was not on the same road. Can't remember how it turned out.

      I'm pretty sure the cop did say he had a much higher % of drunks vs non-drunks, because all the sober people just said "fuck it" and kept going down the main highway...

      --
      No trespassing. Violators will be shot. Survivors will be shot again.
  15. Re:Where in the Constitution? by crow_t_robot · · Score: 4, Informative

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_stop

    Cops use this as the guise to engage with you to for purposes of observing your reactions and identifying the smell of alcohol or other substances so they can then secure probably cause to make you perform a field sobriety test and/or breath test.

  16. Thank you Senators! by eNygma-x · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I just downloaded because you brought it to my attention... and I don't drink and drive.

    --
    As in most religions, it's the followers that turn people off to the religion. And Mac users are the worst.
    1. Re:Thank you Senators! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and I don't drink and drive.

      But now we can :)

    2. Re:Thank you Senators! by intheshelter · · Score: 1

      Except for the I blindly hate Apple and Mac users religion of course? . . . .

    3. Re:Thank you Senators! by Builder · · Score: 1

      I've read his sig 3 times now, and unless he's changed it, I'm missing something. He doesn't say that he hates Apple - just that Mac users turn people off of Apple. Nothing about that statement precludes him from being an Apple user.

    4. Re:Thank you Senators! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Same here. often times, raising hell about something makes it just that much more noticeable and desirable.

  17. Re:Where in the Constitution? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The Senate isn't censoring Apple's applications. (The Senate, actually pass a law? Ha!) No, four Senators are using their constitutionally-protected free speech to whine at Apple in the (fairly realistic) hope that Apple will add one more thing to its extensive list of criteria that will get your app removed.

  18. CEO is so full of shit - he could be a septic tank by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    "PhantomALERT is a 100% legal service. If they really understood what we are doing and aim to achieve they would actually support us." [...] "The idea is to deter drivers from drinking and driving. When drivers get alerts for DUI checkpoints on their smart phones and GPS, they will think twice about drinking and driving."

    The idea is fine. The idea is what police departments, in testimonials on their own site, defend (note that I'm not counting the ones that state the service is legal, that's not a defense for the idea it's a statement of fact which they may very well be unhappy about);

    âoeIf it is alerting the driver there is camera ahead and actually gets the driver to slow down⦠be aware of the speed limit and also be aware of the speed limit and also be aware not to run that red light⦠thatâ(TM)s a great idea.â New Mexico Police

    http://www.phantomalert.com/Police-Testimonials/Police-Testimonials.html

    But what is the reality?
    Their own promotion:

    Tired of traffic tickets? The embarrassment, the time, the points, the frustration, the money?

    Then you need PhantomALERT! For less than the cost of one speeding ticket, PhantomALERT gives you audible and visual warnings as you drive, alerting you to approaching traffic enforcement zones in plenty of time to adjust to changing traffic conditions. It does the work for you - NO MORE SURPRISES!

    In other words, the idea is not to get people to avoid traffic tickets through driving according to posted speed limits, not drunk driving, etc. No, the idea is to have advance warning so that you can then 'adjust in time'. I.e. speed away! Go 140mph! But with our tech, you'll be able to 'adjust in time' to the 70mph posted, and avoid that "embarrassing, frustrating" ticket.

    This is reflected in the *customer* testimonials;

    I am a pharmaceutical sales rep and I drive all over DC, VA and MD all day long. I see speed traps and cameras everywhere and I have gotten my share of tickets.

    Translation: I habitually speed.

    I heard about your service on FOX 5 and I literally run to my computer to check out your website. I was sold immediately. I am sure your PhantomAlert will put a stop to any more tickets. I love the fact that I can now use my GPS to keep track of all the areas I need to slow down at.

    Translation: I believe speed limits only apply to speed trap areas.
    http://www.phantomalert.com/Customer-Testimonials/index.html

    The CEO is overflowing with shit if he believes that the DUI spots will cause drunkards to no longer be drunkards - all it will do is make those drunkards quickly calculate an alternate route over a B road so they won't get caught.

    Before a bunch of people come whining about speed limits often being too low compared to the flow of traffic, speed traps being done on deserted roads in the middle of the night instead of in residential areas where speeding is far more dangerous, and DUI checks being a nuisance for people who haven't had a drop to drink but get pulled over... yes, I understand all that just perfectly. That doesn't change how such apps are used used as methods to evasion, rather than methods to change.

  19. Anybody who DUIs is an asshole... by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 3, Insightful

    And I really hope that they crash into something inanimate before they kill somebody else; but is anybody else pretty creeped out by the notion that secret checkpoints along public roads sounds more like an idea borrowed from a 60's era communist villain(Your papers, citizen...) than a good idea?

    Just start talking in slightly more stilted language(try "Guilty of disseminating information harmful to public safety") and you'll be basically indistinguishable from the average translated kangaroo-court verdict...

    1. Re:Anybody who DUIs is an asshole... by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 1

      I'd be creeped out by the notion of secret checkpoints, except for the fact that the police are required by law to publicly post the checkpoint's time, location and duration prior to setting it up. The problem with these apps isn't that they make the information available, but that the companies are seen to be promoting speeding and DUI.

    2. Re:Anybody who DUIs is an asshole... by gknoy · · Score: 2

      Wait until you read about the immigration checkpoints in Arizona. It's a rabbit hole of WTF with similar time-wasting potential as a link to TVTropes, but with added horror.

    3. Re:Anybody who DUIs is an asshole... by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      If I remember the loophole correctly, ICE claims the authority to pursue their border-protection functions within ~100 miles of the border. It's only 2/3ds of the US, so the fact that they don't follow the same rules as cops is hardly an issue...

    4. Re:Anybody who DUIs is an asshole... by sjames · · Score: 1

      try "Guilty of disseminating information harmful to public safety"

      It sounds a lot like something the Chinese authorities might say.

    5. Re:Anybody who DUIs is an asshole... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sorry to break this to you but I've drank and drove for over 10 years now. On a very regular basis. I've NEVER been in an accident due to it. And no, I'm not the exception. I know of dozens of people that have drink and drive from time to time and never have a problem with it. So if it was REALLY as big of a problem as media makes it out to be then there would be thousands of accidents every night.

      Quite simply it's about the individual and their ability to self asses. I'm sure this will be modded troll into oblivion, but am sick of reading posts from people that make the assumption that the second a person imbibes some alcohol they immediately lose all self control. It's just not true.

  20. Missing the point... by ultraexactzz · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The entire point of DUI checkpoints is not to actually arrest the drunk drivers dumb enough to pull up. The point is to show that, if you do drive drunk, big angry men with guns will arrest you. This is why they announce the checkpoints beforehand - check your paper or local news website, you'll find an article announcing checkpoints a day or two before they go up. It's not investigative, it's (supposed to be) a deterrent.

    Hell, Indiana had a series of billboards - nothing but the image of an orange traffic sign that said "Drunk Driving Checkpoint Ahead". Of course, the billboards were everywhere, and there was no actual checkpoint - but again, it's (supposed to be) a deterrent.

    If police forces do not want people knowing about the checkpoints, they should not announce them publicly. If it's a matter of the public record, then they can't fault an app for aggregating that public record.

    --
    Never underestimate the potential of Human stupidity. -Heinlein
    1. Re:Missing the point... by OhPlz · · Score: 1

      If police forces do not want people knowing about the checkpoints, they should not announce them publicly. If it's a matter of the public record, then they can't fault an app for aggregating that public record.

      I don't know about other states, but here in NH the courts require the police to give public notice x number of days in advance. The courts won't sign off on the checkpoint otherwise. So at least in my own state, there shouldn't be any argument over the app.

      They post the results afterwards. The last few I've seen, they didn't arrest any drunks. What they're really doing is looking for registration and inspection stickers, lights out, and such. To me, these roadblocks are just a lazier way for the police to patrol.

    2. Re:Missing the point... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are forgetting the added benefit of simply stopping people for a quasi illegal search of their vehicle and person. Once you are stopped "probable cause" can be determined via a detailed inspection of the driver, car, papers, etc.

      When I lived in North Carolina whenever there were checkpoints set up the next week the local papers were always reporting a breakdown of the list of charges/infractions obtained that night: drug possession, expired tags, seatbelts, broken taillights, basically a whole host of things that have nothing to do with drunk driving and a trivial number of DUI's way out of proportion with the number of cars stopped used as justification for the whole thing.

      Hell, the same number of officers on a 2am weekend patrol are more effective for catching drunks (google dui checkpoint effectiveness.)

      But, this BS keeps MADD happy and also has the benefit of "winning the war on drugs(tm)" so don't expect it to go anywhere soon. At least some states had the balls to have made checkpoints illegal. (Michigan comes to mind) I sure hope they stay that way.

      For me, there is nothing immoral about obtaining this app, especially since it aggregates information which is legally required to be posted (at least in NC) and allows me to avoid these intrusions of liberty. Hell, I would consider it my civic duty. And Senator blowhard can just sit himself in line with the uninformed peons and submit to inspection, because he has nothing to hide, right?

    3. Re:Missing the point... by nedlohs · · Score: 1

      The announce the checkpoints because the Supreme Court said they have to, not because they want to.

    4. Re:Missing the point... by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      So in your universe, the police should just ignore broken taillights? Or run around chasing down and pulling over people with broken taillights? Yeah, that seems like a good use of everyone's time.

      Giving people tickets for minor deficiencies in their car at a police checkpoint seems like an actual good use of police resources. Unless your position is 'cars should not be required to have operational lights', giving people a ticket for that at a checkpoint seems like the least wasteful way to possible do that, both of police resources and driver's time.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    5. Re:Missing the point... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How is fining people for broken taillights benefiting anyone except government? It amounts to theft at gunpoint. Non functional lights are a non issue as people have incentive to fix them.

      I am reminded of one evening I had a headlight switch go bad in my truck. There were no relays and all power was routed through the switch. The most common failure of these models of headlight siwtch was the breaker in the switch would overheat and trip, leaving you with no healights or taillights. Let it sit long enough and lights come back on briefly before overheating the switch and cutting out again. I knew what was happening and knew if I reduced the current draw the breaker may not overheat. So I unplugged one headlight and sure enough the lights stayed on.

      On the 15 mile drive home I was stopped by police and given a ticket for a headlight out. I explained to the officer that my headlight switch had just failed and I unplugged one headlight so I would still have at least one headlight and my taillights until a parts store opened in the morning. He said he didn't care, it was not his problem. I opened the hood and asked him to walk to the front of the truck and watch the headlight work. He refused. So I plugged the headlight in, closed the hood, and turned the truck around so he could see both headlights working. About the time he came walking over all pissed off all the lights in the truck cut out. I explained the failed headlight switch again and how to make the lights stay on. Again, he didn't care and gave me the ticket anyway. I asked waht a guy is supposed to do when a healight or switch fails while on the road, sleep in the truck until morning then drive home in daylight? He said I could not do that as I would be cited for loitering and disorderly conduct.

      Fines amount to theft at gunpoint. There is no positive outcome from fines. How did me being forced at gunpoint to give up $130 to the State repair my broken headlight switch? If anything it could prevent a repair if I was in a particularly bad financial situation and after paying the $130 I had no money left for the $20 headlight switch. All these fines do it breed hatred for cops and politicials. In my case I have declined to appear in court as witness to several State vs. individual cases that I had been witness to the actualy events. Despite the individual being at fault and careless, etc. I will not testify for anything that will benefit the State. If forced to go to court... "I don't recall"

    6. Re:Missing the point... by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      Non functional lights are a non issue as people have incentive to fix them.

      Most people don't even know when a light goes out. You did notice I was responding to post talking about taillights being out, right?

      So I unplugged one headlight and sure enough the lights stayed on.

      So, in other words, you were driving with one headlight. Knowingly, not unknowingly as most people who have a light go out are.

      That sounds like a perfectly valid ticket to me.

      Incidentally, if you want to argue the case, you have to argue you were justified in court. Like everyone who breaks the law for a 'good reason'. You don't argue your case to cops. The cops see you breaking the law, they give you a ticket for that.

      But feel free to show up in court and 'don't recall' what was going on, and then pay your $130 ticket and probably an extra fine for wasting the court's time. Instead of just explaining the actual situation and probably getting no fine at all.

      Every single person I've ever heard of who has gotten a ticket for a light being out (none of which who knew it) went to the auto parts store, bought a new light, kept the receipt, and showed it to the judge and said they'd fixed it, who then waived the fine. That's how you deal with a ticket for a deficiency in your vehicle...you fix it before the court date, and document you fixed it, and the judge say 'Well, that's okay then.' and lets you go.

      Perhaps you should actually try interacting with the legal system, in the place where you're actually supposed to explain the reason you were in violation of the law, the courtroom, to the judge. Instead explaining it to a cop, who does not care. He cares if you're not in actual violation of the law, but not if you are but have a 'good reason'. Affirmative defenses, or even 'I fixed the problem' defenses, belong in the courtroom.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    7. Re:Missing the point... by intheshelter · · Score: 1

      So in your universe you don't realize that the police are upset about this because these checkpoints are about generating money for the city via citations, right? Tell me your universe is not that stupid, please. Please don't tell me you're dumb enough to think this has anything to do with public safety, or to "serve and protect"? Please don't tell me you're so dumb as to not realize that the police have now become a major revenue generation arm of the government and that they are more tax collectors now than public servants?

    8. Re:Missing the point... by intheshelter · · Score: 1

      Wow, I think you and I might be best friends. I think we have equal disdain for the State and the badged thugs it employs to raise money.

    9. Re:Missing the point... by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      Except that, unlike a lot of bullshit the cops give tickets for, a) there is an actual safety risk driving with broken lights, and b) it is trivially easy to get such a ticket dismissed in court if you've actually fixed your vehicle by the date of court.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
  21. I'd like to see a drunk use a phone... by howardd21 · · Score: 1

    If a guy can knock back a few and actually use a iPhone touch screen or a Blackberry keyboard, he is good to go behind the wheel!

    --
    no comment
  22. Easier Solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Wouldn't it just be easier for police to submit dozens of fake DUI checkpoints, essentially making the app useless?

  23. Re:Where in the Constitution? by Sarten-X · · Score: 2

    The Constitution has nothing to do with this. A few senators were standing around one day and somebody mentioned this app, and thew others said it's a bad idea. The headline may as well read "3rd-grade teacher, zookeeper, astrophysicist, and bus driver to Apple".

    Now, if there's public support for this idea, then there might be a proposal for legislation, which would likely be a large complicated mess falling under the "interstate commerce" clause, but I doubt that will happen. There's far too many assholes out there who think they have a God-given right to ignore any law they don't like.

    --
    You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
  24. Illegal in the UK? by Tx · · Score: 3, Informative

    In the UK, warning others of a police speed trap e.g. by flashing your lights is a criminal offence which will get you hauled into court and fined. So I wonder if these apps would even be legal in the UK (I don't have an iOS device, so I don't know if such things are on sale here).

    On the other hand, satnavs with speed camera warnings seem to be legal, but in that case you can argue that the aim is to help you keep your speed down in dangerous areas, i.e. to avoid committing the offence in the first place, whereas with dodging DUI checks, the offence has already been committed, you're just trying to avoid being caught.

    --
    Oh no... it's the future.
    1. Re:Illegal in the UK? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...the UK situation raises an obvious question. If it is a criminal offence for a driver to warn another driver of a speed trap, then surely it is a criminal offence for a sat nav to warn a driver of a speed trap? And in actual fact what got him hauled into court was a stubourn attitude towards a police woman.

      Still, who says the UK or US are free countries?

    2. Re:Illegal in the UK? by slim · · Score: 2

      We don't have DUI checks here in the UK. I've experienced one once, while on holiday in the US. Basically they narrow the road down with cones, put up signs telling you to slow down, flag your car down as you pass, ask you if you've been drinking, and assuming you say no, and they haven't a reason to think you're lying, they send you on your way.

      Of course, that's my experience as a white man in a hire car, with the English accent of a tourist.

      So it's quite different from speed traps. I personally think speed limits should be absolute and speed cameras should be covert. We shouldn't feel that it's only necessary to stick to the speed limit when there are overt cameras around. If people knew that 40MPH means 40MPH, and you could get caught anywhere, maybe speed limits could be increased in many places.

    3. Re:Illegal in the UK? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That guy had a useless lawyer. Someone was given a similar ticket over here in Canada. It would have stuck if it weren't for the fact that the guy's lawyer argued that the purpose of posting police for a speed trap was to enforce a speed limit. If the speed limit needs enforcing, it is because the road is unsafe. Ergo, the lights were being flashed to warn drivers of unsafe conditions ahead.

      It is not legal for a policeman to be enforcing laws for the sole purpose of increasing the city's coffers. They must be doing it to serve public safety. Of course, similarly, we do not permit unmarked patrol cars to run speed traps, either, as that would be encouraging drivers to enter an unsafe situation. Well, at least not in Ontario. 'course, radar detectors (and radar detector detectors) are illegal here...

    4. Re:Illegal in the UK? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Suspending the licenses of those caught speeding would be cheaper, more effective, and in general saner than secret surveillance of all public ways.

    5. Re:Illegal in the UK? by Anubis+IV · · Score: 1

      Here in Texas, it's the same way. Flashing your lights at oncoming motorists to signal that there are police ahead is illegal, whereas an app like this probably isn't. And I've heard mixed things about radar detectors and the like, since many people do have them, though mostly I hear that they're illegal.

    6. Re:Illegal in the UK? by slim · · Score: 1

      Suspending the licenses of those caught speeding would be cheaper, more effective, and in general saner than secret surveillance of all public ways.

      I'm not advocating secret surveillance of all public ways; that would be expensive, as you say.

      Have a similar number of speed cameras as we have today. Rather than have them bright yellow as they are in the UK today, camouflage them.

      Advertise (truthfully) that:
        - there could be a speed camera on any road
        - that cameras do not take photos, except of vehicles measured to be exceeding the speed limit (this is important)
        - the acceptable margin of error (possibly zero, but I accept that some speedometers aren't perfect) ... and, as you point out, set the penalties such that they're a real deterrent.

      There's no point having deterrents, when persistent speeders achieve it by being good at spotting bright yellow cameras, slamming on the brakes, and hence never getting caught.

    7. Re:Illegal in the UK? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not saying you're wrong, but please don't cite the Daily Mail...

    8. Re:Illegal in the UK? by OzPeter · · Score: 1

      So it's quite different from speed traps. I personally think speed limits should be absolute and speed cameras should be covert. We shouldn't feel that it's only necessary to stick to the speed limit when there are overt cameras around. If people knew that 40MPH means 40MPH, and you could get caught anywhere, maybe speed limits could be increased in many places.

      I have a problem with speed limits in the US because they aren't absolute. On the freeways you can easily do 75mph in a 65 zone and the police may not even bother to look up from their coffee and doughnuts. But get 15mph over the limit and you are into a whole different penalty scheme, so they start to pay attention a bit more then. So the effective speed limit is some arbitrary value between 65 and 80 that is enforced purely on the discretion of the officer on site, and has nothing to do with the posted limit. But of course if you do get booked, the fines in VA (for example) relate to how fast you were exceeding the posted limit. I'd love an the argument based on the difference between the written law and the enforced (and hence effective) law in this regard. Of course every now and again the cops will do a blitz and book everyone doing over the posted limit - but the weekends when they do that are well publicized.

      --
      I am Slashdot. Are you Slashdot as well?
    9. Re:Illegal in the UK? by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      Texas may think it's illegal, but it's not. You are clearly attempting to say 'Police ahead', which is speech, and thus they cannot ban it.

      They can ban you flashing your lights at night, because legally you have to have your lights on at all time at night, so you can't cut them off for a second, and it's illegal to shine brights at other people, so you have no actual legal method of communication.

      But it is not illegal to have your lights on during the day, and it cannot be illegal to use those lights to communicate with other drivers, even if the message is 'police ahead'.

      I suspect it's not actually illegally, and whoever told you that has fallen for a police lie or an exaggeration about the fact you can't flash lights at night.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    10. Re:Illegal in the UK? by BetterSense · · Score: 1

      Yes, but the police don't know the law, they just enforce it.

    11. Re:Illegal in the UK? by Anubis+IV · · Score: 1

      Sorry, I should have been clearer. I meant flash your brights at the oncoming traffic.

    12. Re:Illegal in the UK? by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      Yeah, flashing (or even just not dimming) your brights at oncoming traffic is illegal for any reason, which they can get away with because it's not an attempt to ban speech, it's an attempt to ban dangerous behavior.

      In Georgia, interestingly enough, it's legal to flash them if, and only if, the other car is driving with their brights on, which I guess is a sorta 'self-defense' theory of driving safety. But other than that, we can't flash brights. In many states, you can't even do that. (Although, strictly speaking, even where illegal, if you do it for that reason, you can argue that you were preventing greater harm, and possibly get acquitted. It is legal to tackle someone to keep them from accidentally walking off a cliff, and it is legal to blind them to keep them from unknowingly blinding dozens of other cars, one of which may then crash into them.)

      But during the day, you can do whatever you want with your headlights. (Well, in some states, you still can't use brights at oncoming traffic, which is more a legal oversight than any purposeful law, but you can use your dims.)

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    13. Re:Illegal in the UK? by Anubis+IV · · Score: 1

      Yeah, in Florida it was similar to what you described for Georgia, as I recall. Anyway, I really should make a point of saying what I'm thinking, instead of something else entirely.

    14. Re:Illegal in the UK? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He defended himself, so yes, he did have a useless lawyer. I would certainly question the police and magistrate's interpretation of the law since fixed speed cameras have to be painted bright yellow* so I don't see how giving a warning could be obstruction. There may be a bit more to this story however since the OP linked to the Daily Fail, and I don't quite trust their reporting.

      *The rationale being that they are enforcing the speed limits to prevent accidents not to raise money, so it is better if everyone knows they are there.

    15. Re:Illegal in the UK? by Builder · · Score: 1

      On the other hand, satnavs with speed camera warnings seem to be legal, but in that case you can argue that the aim is to help you keep your speed down in dangerous areas

      But by that logic, flashing your lights in the area of a speed trap could also be aimed at helping people keep their speed down in a dangerous area. The area _must_ be dangerous, because the traps are officially "safety checks" not speed traps. So by setting up the trap, you've admitted that the road is dangerous. The man in your example was punished for warning people of a dangerous area and trying to save lives.

      But hey, with the british justice system, you can still be walking around with over 100 convictions against you if you have a good scumbag lawyer, so I fully expect them to crack down on mostly harmless people - they're the only ones that the courts have the balls to push around.

      I don't recall if he appealed, but I wish he had!

  25. Can I get this in a car analogy? by howardd21 · · Score: 4, Funny

    I just don't understand, can somebody make a car analogy for me?

    --
    no comment
  26. Prove your innocence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Roadblocks are a blatant attack on the principle of innocent before proven guilty, same as wiretapping and spying without due process. These are tools of oppression, not freedom.

    The age-old tyrant's claim of "if you are innocent, then you have no reason to hide" should be answered precisely: if I am innocent, then you have no reason to question me. Or follow me. Or detain me. Or spy on me. Or make any contact with me whatsoever.

    1. Re:Prove your innocence by rust627 · · Score: 1

      I think that a drunk driver swerving across the road and smashing in to my car is an infringement on my rights as well

      Driving a car is not a right, it is a privilege that we earn by passing the licence test.
      We agree to the terms of this privilege as part of our agreement to sit for the licence test.
      the terms are quite simple, there are rules that must be followed to ensure that the most numbers of similarly privileged people can utilise the roads (and footpaths)at the same time.
      From then on this privilege can be withdrawn from any person who does not follow these rules.
      I personally don't mind being pulled over to have my breath tested, because i know that the fact that the cops do this stops some of the idiots from drinking and driving, and catches some more.
      Unfortunately not all.

      --
      da da da dum indeed.
    2. Re:Prove your innocence by joebagodonuts · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Then get the dangerous driver off the road. Sobriety checkpoints aren't the way to do that.

      In typical bureaucratic fashion, we get an approach that penalizes everyone, without effectively addressing the real problem.

      Sens. Harry Reid (D-Nev.), Charles Schumer (D-NY), Frank Lautenberg (D-NJ) and Tom Udall (D-NM) asked Scott Forstall, the head of Apple's iPhone software group, to pull an unspecified number of apps from the company's App Store. The senators also made similar requests of Google's CEO Eric Schmidt and Research in Motion's (RIM) co-CEOs, James Balsillie and Michael Lazaridis.....

      4 Democrats, who would've guessed? The party that thinks it can save us from ourselves. Look guys, you want to help? Get me some of that money like you gave to the Wall Street guys. How come no one wants to "save me from myself" in that fashion?

      --
      "Give a woman two glasses of wine and some pad thai, and they'll agree to just about anything." the Sports Guy
    3. Re:Prove your innocence by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      I think that a drunk driver swerving across the road and smashing in to my car is an infringement on my rights as well

      So you want to ban anyone drunk? How about old drivers? Young drivers? Drivers who have a cold? Drivers who didn't have enough sleep last night? Drivers who just had a fight with their spouse?

      Why is the ban list aimed at alcohol when cell phones are allowed almost everywhere (if not everywhere), as well as radios/CDs, passengers, eating, etc.? The statistics show talking on a hands free to be worse than .08 BAC, but .08 is considered too high by MADD, and hands free talking on the phone is legal everywhere I know of (in the US). So where do we draw the line, and how do we enforce it if you want to go after people past some arbitrary level of impairment before they've caused any actual harm?

  27. It's so obvious by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Interesting

    Yet more interference in the free market by congresscritters.

  28. Notice their party? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Had these been republicans we would have heard all kinds of howls about a police state. Since they're democrats and fairly well respected democrats at that it seems that people aren't interested in such hyperbole.

  29. BS....politicians by hesaigo999ca · · Score: 3, Insightful

    They know this will hurt their wallet, and are using this as the only means to pin point a good reason why not allow it.
    First off, someone failing a D&D test would also not be smart enough to remember to use an iphone to evade cops.

    And if someone realizes that this is to avoid speed traps, to warn people of possible traffic because of accidents, then become a bit more cunning in setting up your traps, once you nab 2 or 3, move to a next vantage point, and stop thinking that you can sit there for 3 hours to get your monthly quota of tickets. I have friends that are cops, but they never tell me where they will be, I get to find out when i speed past a trap, so if I have a website or app that tells me this, I will consult it to watch my speed, not to change course...

    They should also ban the iPhone because you can open it up and stash some drugs inside if you remove the hard drive, and they would never know at the airport....they should ban the iphone for that....or wait they could ban politicians altogether, because you can hide drugs by sticking some up their *sses, so technically it is being used for something it was not designed to, so let's abolish all politicians because people can use them to carry drugs across borders.

    1. Re:BS....politicians by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      First off, someone failing a D&D test would also not be smart enough to remember to use an iphone to evade cops.


       
      Uh, what? You're not a drinker, are you?
       
      Failing in most of the US is 0.08%. I could *easily* run an app at that level. I could be at that level and hold a conversation with you and you'd likely have no idead that I had been drinking. 0.08% is a joke to any person who drinks more than two drink on a regular basis.

    2. Re:BS....politicians by Spykk · · Score: 1

      First off, someone failing a D&D test would also not be smart enough to remember to use an iphone to evade cops.

      Can I really be blamed when the DM keeps rolling natural 20s?

    3. Re:BS....politicians by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's DUI, not D&D. And it is not for speed traps, but DUI-checks. Both of these are in the fucking title, not reading TFA, okay this is Slashdot, I understand, not reading the summary, that's rather stupid and lazy, but I can see how it is possible to do and still comment, but not reading the fucking title, how did you manage that one and make it remotely on topic.

  30. Less donuts, more brains, please by antivoid · · Score: 2

    Here I go with another reverse cowgirl theory. If cops want to catch drunk drivers, then get more cops or improve the ways to catch them or increase visible policing. Removing some app from an iPhone isn't going to stop people driving drunk. How ridiculous... If I was too drunk to drive, I'd be too drunk to use my phone to look up road blocks. If they're that worried build in some simple sobriety test, like solving some simple 5 * 7 + 13 math puzzle... Or decrease the supply of donuts to the police force.

    1. Re:Less donuts, more brains, please by tbannist · · Score: 1

      What if the apps use GPS and plays some police-themed sound (maybe music) when you're approaching a checkpoint? If they announce the checkpoint's location then all you need to do is have the phone on and be able to understand what you're hearing.

      I think the end result will be that Apple will likely pull the apps from the store. They are going to have a very difficult time arguing for applications that specifically aid and abet drunk drivers. Particularly if they apps are marketed as a way to avoid getting a ticket when you're driving drunk, it looks bad, and Apple doesn't want to look bad.

      --
      Fanatically anti-fanatical
  31. An obvious free speech issue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    These senators should be embarrassed for proposing something that is clearly a violation of free speech. Information about check points is as easy (and legal) to obtain as observing one in progress. Any attempt by the law to limit the dissemination of that factual information is a painfully obvious attempt to limit speech that these senators simply do not care for.

    1. Re:An obvious free speech issue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And yet there are limits to free speech; such as interfering in official police business, Obstruction of Justice, etc. The courts have upheld these exceptions.

  32. It's easier to booze it up by stomv · · Score: 2

    if you're not in jail or wrapped around a tree...

  33. Freeking Republicans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I didn't RTFA, but we all know who's behind this, right? The party of control.

  34. Who cares by royallthefourth · · Score: 1

    Where's the Android app for this?

    1. Re:Who cares by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      PhantomALERT. In the Market.

  35. Re:Where in the Constitution? by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 1

    I guess you missed the bit about them asking Apple to pull the app. That's different from a Senator opining about the pros and cons of an app.

    It's dangerously close to being censorship and considering the government's recent interest in anti-trust issues concerning Apple, it could be a threat.

  36. Re:Where in the Constitution? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It's just four Senators; you need 60 to actually do anything. Just because someone is a Senator does not mean that they give up their Constitutional right to whine about everything.

  37. Pick a side! by Ender_Wiggin · · Score: 0

    Apple can never win and please everybody, especially not the /. crowd. There have been dozens of "Apple rejects X" stories ever since the App Store launched in 2008. Apple rejects the anti-gay-marriage "Manhattan Declaration" app and gets protests and boycott threats from the Right for denying free speech. Apple approves the Exodus International app (run by a church that thinks homosexuality can be cured), and gets huge petitions (90,000 signers last I saw) and complaints from the Left.

    Even the slashdotters are schizophrenic over this matter. "Apple should ban 'Baby Shaker,'" or "why did Apple remove iBoobs?" Can we please be consistent?

    1. Re:Pick a side! by jedidiah · · Score: 2

      > Apple can never win and please everybody

      This is why it's a good idea to be not solely responsible for the content that appears on your platform.

      You can implicitly allow this stuff by granting your end users liberty rather than being percieved as explicitly approving or censoring anything.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    2. Re:Pick a side! by 19thNervousBreakdown · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yeah! Why can't everybody have the same opinion? Get it together, people!

      --
      <xml><I><am><so><damn>Web 2.0</damn></so></am></I></xml>
    3. Re:Pick a side! by Ender_Wiggin · · Score: 1

      That's also an untenable position. Considering the flack that google is getting for allowing malware on Android and the problems Nokia had with viruses on their phones, they have to have some sort of quality control for apps. Also, certain countries like Germany(?) may not allow iPhones and other devices if they don't have some sort of parental restrictions or block illegal/pirate apps

    4. Re:Pick a side! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can we please be consistent?

      Exactly, Apple should be consistent when babysitting they customers.

    5. Re:Pick a side! by Duradin · · Score: 1

      Ahh "For FREEDOMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!!! We must force retailer X to sell product Y!" I never thought it'd get old, but it is.

    6. Re:Pick a side! by R3d+M3rcury · · Score: 1

      Considering the flack that google is getting for allowing malware on Android and the problems Nokia had with viruses on their phones, they have to have some sort of quality control for apps.

      Not entirely true.

      Apple has an App Store, but you can buy or download Apps from any website. Apple can moderate it's App Store all it wants, but you can still get Apps that Apple won't approve.

      Want the security that comes from knowing that someone (in theory) is making sure that you're protected? Buy from Apple's store exclusively.

    7. Re:Pick a side! by R3d+M3rcury · · Score: 1

      The analogy you're discussing only works when there is competition. When it comes to App Stores on the iOS platform, there is no competition, which makes it a monopoly. So, yes, they can be forced.

      Now before you get your panties in a twist because I used the 'M' word, a monopoly exists for a particular market. Microsoft argued they did not have a monopoly in personal computer operating systems because of Apple. The court found that Microsoft did have a monopoly on operating systems for Intel based computers. This is why I prefaced the 'M' word with the statement about "When it comes to App Stores on the iOS platform", thus delineating the market in question.

  38. I don't drink, but I don't like waiting at checks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    either. Apps like this help people like me avoid ridiculous delays as police check us for alcohol consumption. On certain roads, especially on holidays, the wait can be as much as 25-30 minutes.

  39. Easy Fix for the App by mangusman · · Score: 2

    There's a easy fix for this app (and all similar apps): Make the user *earn* the right to use the app by forcing them to prove they're not legally impaired. If they can't find Waldo, or some other such test, then they'll have to pull over or take their chances and hope they don't find the checkpoints.

    1. Re:Easy Fix for the App by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1
      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
  40. Re:Where in the Constitution? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The constitution is relevant on several levels:

    1. The practice the police are defending is unconstitutional (they need a warrant signed by a judge specifying what they intend to search and why they think they will find it before they can require a private citizen to submit to a search). Driving a car down a given road is not probably cause and therefore should be insufficient for a warrant.

    2. A member of Congress represents that body. Writing a letter to Apple (most likely) using their free mail privlage to do so looks like a statement of intent (sort of a do this or we'll write a law forcing your hand). That's questionable ethics, but it also means the question of whether or not Congress has the authority to make such legislation is relevant.

    3. It's not immediately obvious what portions of the Constitution apply to this case. The first (freedom of speech) second (right to bare arms) and fifth (right to due process) amendments all have a case

  41. Re:Where in the Constitution? by Ravon+Rodriguez · · Score: 1

    If someone tries to put it into a bill, then you can whine about censorship; until then, it's no different than you, me, or anyone else asking for the app to be pulled. I'll concede that they might have a bigger voice than the rest of us, but the burden still falls completely on Apple to heed or dismiss the request. Perceived authority is not the same as actual authority; both you and I have been around long enough to know this, and so have the people at Apple who will ultimately decide this app's fate.

    --
    Jesus loves me, he loves me a bunch, because he always puts Jiffy in my lunch.
  42. Dude, where's my bacon? by cshamis · · Score: 2

    Okay, I'm not condoning drunk driving. It's deadly dangerous full stop. However, the state has no right to prevent me from knowing the locations of DUI checkpoints, or patrol cars that are camping behind billboards, or in unlit parking lots, etc. I find it completely unacceptable that US Senators would suggest we begin employing secret police tactics like those used by the STASI in cold-war era East Germany. iPhone app, Android, whatever, that doesn't matter guys. Next they'll tell you can't text the location of a speed trap to somebody else, or talk on the phone about it. That's what this is really all about; restricting free communication of the citizens. The app is just the medium, it's not important. Please remember to vote these Senators out of office next election.

  43. Re:Where in the Constitution? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A Terry stop has nothing to do with a check point where they stop each and every car on the road for an inspection

    From your link
    >In the United States, a Terry stop is a brief detention of a person by police[1] on reasonable suspicion of involvement in criminal activity but short of probable cause to arrest.

  44. Re:CEO is so full of shit - he could be a septic t by Vectormatic · · Score: 2

    CEO is so full of shit - he could be a septic tank

    for a second there, i thought you were using british slang for yank :P

    --
    People, what a bunch of bastards
  45. mynutswon? holycosters less strung out? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    whatever? must be using the doasyou'retold decibel system?

  46. Giving up more and more rights... by GregC63 · · Score: 2

    First, I am not condoning driving under the influence. To me this is a constitutional matter. Law enforcement can set up a Gestapo type check point and all they have to do is make an announcement on a low wattage radio station as to the location of the check point and the law says this is enough to consider the public informed. Typically they only do this the afternoon before the checkpoint is set up. This is fundamentally unconstitutional. You should not be subjected to being stopped and questioned for no apparent reason. If I am a sober driver and want to avoid this checkpoint, I should have everything available to me to do so. This app is no different to me than law enforcement having to announce the location of the checkpoint. I also believe you can actually go to the local law enforcement or state highway patrol website and get the same information, so what is the difference in that and having an app that will do it for you?

  47. Not a secret... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    DUI checkpoints are publicized BY THE POLICE on the 6:00 news before they're opened later that night... by the way.

  48. Thanks, senators. by kelemvor4 · · Score: 1

    I didn't even know apps like this existed. Can't wait to give it a shot! Funny that police departments support these apps (specifically in my town according to the advertisement on a few of them even) yet our "representatives" in legislature do not.

  49. Re:Where in the Constitution? by crow_t_robot · · Score: 0

    Driving on a certain route at 2:10 AM gives them the reasonable suspicion to stop your car which is why they do it.

  50. THANK YOU. by MachineShedFred · · Score: 1

    This subtlety is often lost on the Internet, and it drives me crazy. The First Amendment only restricts the action of governments to limit speech, not individuals or private entities.

    --
    Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
  51. Re:Where in the Constitution? by crow_t_robot · · Score: 1
    Specifically:

    Reasonable suspicion depends on the “totality of the circumstances”, and can result from a combination of facts, each of which is by itself innocuous.

  52. Tell your government to F-Off by Combatso · · Score: 1

    Police actions are a matter of public record. They announce RIDE (roadside checks) on the radio around here all the time. Perhaps if a driver knew he would be checked he wouldnt drive... and isnt that the end game? or is the end game to nail as many as possible to reap cash rewards in the form of fines.. I don't drive drunk, and I don't condone it. With the way the laws are going here (in Ontario), 1 beer is enough to ruin your life. So I stay where I am not matter what. I see nothing wrong with this app, as all it would tell me is "the cops are going to pull you over and waste you time, even tho you havent broken any law, and they have no probable cause, but expect to get harassed anyway... take a different route"..

  53. Legalized checkpoints by swb · · Score: 5, Informative

    I'm told by a currently employed police officer that this is largely what motivates many suburban districts to perform speed traps. It has nothing to do with concern about speeding, but it enables them to stop and interview drivers essentially at random, fishing for other possible crimes.

    He also said that it was "widely believed" that vigorous traffic enforcement was a general deterrent to crime, the theory being that people involved in criminal behavior were sensitive to police presence and the risks associated with being stopped with incriminating items, flagged for parole violations/outstanding warrants, etc.

    To me it seems like a good excuse to run a police state.

    1. Re:Legalized checkpoints by crow_t_robot · · Score: 5, Informative

      You are exactly correct.

      It should be a requirement for every American citizen to read this book:
      http://www.amazon.com/Tactics-Criminal-Patrol-Discovery-Survival/dp/0935878122/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1300891075&sr=8-3
      The publisher won't sell this to civilians. You have to prove somehow that you are LEO-affiliated to obtain one but I received a copy from a friend who is currently a deputy sheriff and I read it cover-to-cover. IMPORTANT PART: THIS MANUAL DESCRIBES TO LAW ENFORCEMENT AN ARSENAL OF STOPPING, INTERVIEWING AND OBSERVATIONAL TACTICS TO GET YOU TO RELINQUISH YOUR RIGHTS AS AN AMERICAN CITIZEN TO ALLOW OFFICERS TO INSPECT YOUR PERSON AND VEHICLE. The techniques and methods described are AMAZINGLY effective and proven. It teaches them exactly how to let a suspect incriminate themselves and the exact legal boundaries for an officer to skirt while in your presence.

      If you have the chance, PLEASE read this book. It applies to you as a citizen regardless of whether you are a criminal or not.

    2. Re:Legalized checkpoints by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      Would you rather live in a criminal state? Because that is the alternative to something that has balance. Police need to be able to do their jobs without being second guessed every time they do something, and criminals have all the power and control. On the other hand police violating the public trust should be held to a much higher penalties when convicted.

      It is about proper balance in serving the public trust.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    3. Re:Legalized checkpoints by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The publisher won't sell this to civilians. You have to prove somehow that you are LEO-affiliated ...

      LEOs are civilians, too. They're not military.

    4. Re:Legalized checkpoints by swb · · Score: 1

      I think there's such a high level of hypocrisy and abuse associated with traffic stops generally and speed traps specifically that it's worth challenging them.

      I doubt speed traps have EVER been set in an area because reliable statistical information held that there were a lot of accidents that resulted from speeding; they are almost always set where it's almost natural to drive faster (straight roads, clear line of sight) yet officers have good places to "hide" to check speeds.

      IMHO, "speed traps" should be illegal except in areas where there are a statistically verifiable number of crashed attributable to speed; anything else is a fishing expedition and/or revenue enhancement.

  54. Defense against Lawlessness by skywire · · Score: 1

    When police are flagrantly violating the 4th amendment to the US constitution, interfering with the freedom of travel on what in Britain is called "the King's highway", and costing drivers time and fuel, and making some late to appointments, surely the citizens have every right to warn each other of where the illegal activity is being conducted so they can simply avoid going there.

    --
    Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
  55. It's about the money by danbuter · · Score: 1

    Most government agencies could give a damn about public safety. They just want the money from the DUI.

    1. Re:It's about the money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Around here it's only partly about the money. The real focus is on ruining people's lives. I have a friend who made the mistake of driving drunk. No one was harmed but he was hanged for it.

      First offense and wasn't even allowed to drive to work. So he kept driving but only directly to and from work as he couldn't afford to lose his job. Eventually he was stopped on the way to work and cited again. A few thousand more in fines and surcharges, more mandatory DUI/alcohol abuse classes, and another year without a license. He still drove to work though, and got stopped again on the way to work, a few thousand more in fines, 2 more years added to license suspension, more alcohol abuse classes, etc.

      He stopped driving after the third time being stopped and harassed for going to work. He was fired for not showing up at work every day or coming in late whenever he could get a ride. He was denied unemployment since he was fired for not showing up, lost his house to the bank since he wasn't making any money, his fiancee left him, he moved back in with his parents and sat around for a year before finally finding some BS minimum wage job he could walk to. Got fired from that when the company had to downsize, and now sits around collecting unemployment. Still no drivers license and no prospects of returning to a normal life and a decent job for at least a few more years.

      So it's not always about the money, sometimes they just want to completely ruin someone's life for the hell of it.

  56. No apps for this..... by SwedishChef · · Score: 0

    Why, then, are there no Apps for the following:

    1. Burgle. Your smartphone can determine whether the occupants of a house are away for just an hour or on vacation.
    2. Swindle. This App uses the Internet as a database to uncover Social Security numbers (in the USA) and identity earmarks (elsewhere).
    3. Stalkem. This is a swell app to determine whether someone is stalkable; provides phone numbers and addresses of potential victims.
    4. Gettem....
    5. Hurttem...

    A wide-open field for app developers.

    --
    No one ever had to evacuate a city because the solar panels broke!
  57. Does not compute. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think that the basis for any remotely sane fiscal policy has got to be "keep the taxpayers alive".

    If that isn't quite working out for you right now, sure, I can grok that. You're still going to need to take said taxpayers as a basis though, because you're not going to get taxes out of anything other than the taxpayers.

    If at any point it makes sense to let taxpayers die or to start killing them outright, there is something SERIOUSLY wrong with your country ... or with your logic. :-P

    1. Re:Does not compute. by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      I would argue that a fiscal policy even more sane says: don't spend more money than you have. Taxpayers will live and die independently of fiscal policy.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
  58. Anyone Heard of Free Speech? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Anyone Heard of Free Speech?
    Seems that neither Apple nor our elected officials in the USA have.

    I'm not big on governments having secrets, but I don't see how avoiding police DUI checkpoints is bad for anyone.

  59. It doesn't tell you to drink more. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It doesn't tell you to drink more. So why is it stopped?

    Rather like the "safety cameras" locations in Sat-Navs (except somewhat less so), if you know where these spots are, you can avoid where there's a known problem with drunk drivers going in their cars.

    Seems like a safety feature to me.

    Or are they saying that drink driving only kills the driver that's drunk?

  60. iPhone apps are just new CBs by SuperBanana · · Score: 2

    Years ago, a friend had a 5 minute long conversation about how cops were incredible assholes, speeding tickets were just revenue collection (which they are), etc. Shortly after the conversation ended, he got pulled over for speeding, and the cop walked up, said hello, and asked him if he'd like to continue the conversation. He'd been chatting with the (bored) cop.

    1. Re:iPhone apps are just new CBs by bsane · · Score: 1

      Sounds like the cop was an asshole- using his official power to win a personal argument. What if the guy wanted to keep arguing? Would the cop get to taser him to prove he was 'right'?

    2. Re:iPhone apps are just new CBs by mjwx · · Score: 1

      speeding tickets were just revenue collection (which they are)

      Wait, punishment for breaking the law is revenue collection?

      Speeding tickets in this country (Australia) are the easiest thing to get out of, the hardest thing to get (unless you're going over the speed limit) and speed is a massive factor in road accident fatalities (yes it really is only 10 KPH between the hospital and the morgue).

      If you don't speed, you don't get speeding tickets. I don't get what's wrong about that, no doubt you'll respond with some ill thought out rant about how the police are conspiring, don't bother as I've heard the whole thing before and it's bollocks.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
  61. Holy Fourth Amendment, Batman! by DigiTechGuy · · Score: 1

    When I see these stops I turn off on a side street or make a u-turn. I will not willingly submit to an unconstitutional search. ... Papers Comrade?

  62. iPhone Drivers vs. Drunk Drivers by Maltheus · · Score: 2

    People are so hyper about drinking and driving, which is often tragic, but mostly goes unnoticed and without incident. From what I've observed, people on cell phones are even more dangerous and absent minded behind the wheel. I'm not sure that I'm for a ban, but I find it hypocritical to condemn one action while implicitly endorsing the other (so long as you aren't using this app, of course).

  63. Is there a speed trap app? by swb · · Score: 1

    I always thought that would be awesome -- open the speed trap app and drive. See a speed trap? tap the "speed trap" button as you drive past, and the GPS coordinates get uploaded to a server.

    I envision two operation modes, "live" mode and "historical" mode.

    In live mode, when you are approaching a speed trap, the app alerts some user-definable distance from the speed trap; if you see the trap, you click on a button to validate the speed trap.

    If there is no speed trap there, clicking "no trap" would essentially vote down the speed trap and/or accelerate some expiration time associated with reported speed traps.

    The user could also have validation thresholds (ie, don't warn unless there are more than N trap reports in the last N minutes/hours).

    If "historical" mode is enabled, warnings would also be issued for places that have a history with reported speed traps. There would have to be some parameters for defining alert thresholds (time since last report, number of unique reporting days, frequency of reports).

    Coordinates alone may be tricky for coherent warnings -- many urban areas have a parallel freeway only a couple of miles away, or roads with enough turns to make driving distance and straight-line distance significantly different. But I'd imagine actual road identification via GPS may involve GIS data that would make the app far more complex.

    I suspect if an app like this were made and was at all popular, it would really throw a wrench into speed traps. Enough aggregated data might even expose internal speed trap schedules (ie, Highway 62 never has traps on Tuesdays, etc).

    1. Re:Is there a speed trap app? by bitingduck · · Score: 1

      It's called "Trapster" and it does pretty much all that. It's gotten a little clunky and busy with some of the more recent updates, sometimes with icons and things changing enough that it's distracting rather than helpful. I used it for a while, but I tend to use the sigalert website (which has a decent phone interface) more often-- you get a simple color coded traffic map with incident markers. You can select the markers (you just have to tap kind of close) and it will usually show dispatch details-- time, lane, vehicles involved (or other hazard), time police arrived, ambulance on the way, whether they're going to create a break, etc.

  64. Re:CEO is so full of shit - he could be a septic t by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    only when rhyming it Cockney-style ;)

    Reminds me of milk gone off big time stylee :)

  65. Tax base is growing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The tax base in no way approaches the deficit - which is why there is a deficit in the first place.

    Falsehood. Any number of studies and surveys show that the problem is people are undertaxed relative to the amount of spending, and that is causing a deficit.

    Tax rates keep dropping, and despite Republican theories, it has not magically increased revenues through trickle growth.

    1. Re:Tax base is growing. by cobrausn · · Score: 1

      Or, spending is too high relative to the amount of taxation, causing a deficit. But sure, your way makes it sound like we need more taxes and not to be more selective in our public spending. Quite possibly the worst thing about American welfare is that only those who don't pay into it get much benefit from it, which rewards bad decision making (among other things). At least in an actual socialist system everybody gets the same benefit, even if the successful pay a much higher rate for it.

      --
      How does it feel to be a liar with pants constantly on fire?
    2. Re:Tax base is growing. by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      It's most likely both. Cut the spending, raise the taxes.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    3. Re:Tax base is growing. by JeffAtl · · Score: 1

      By that logic, businesses should be able to make more revenue simply by raising prices - the RIAA could make up for the money they claim to be losing to piracy by just raising the prices of CDs.

    4. Re:Tax base is growing. by The+Snowman · · Score: 1

      By that logic, businesses should be able to make more revenue simply by raising prices - the RIAA could make up for the money they claim to be losing to piracy by just raising the prices of CDs.

      The government forces me to pay taxes against my will. No business can force me to buy their product, especially not a leisure product such as music or a movie, against my will.

      --
      24 beers in a case, 24 hours in a day. Coincidence? I think not!
  66. Wait by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think they tried that - it was called prohibition. Oooh, I see what you did there.

  67. But they have to announce them anyways... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    At least in NH, to the best of my knowledge, they have to announce the fact that they are going to hold a checkpoint on a given date (the location isn't disclosed, however).

    Why do they have to announce it? Entrapment. I think that's ridiculous because they would be more effective if people didn't know when they would be held.

    1. Re:But they have to announce them anyways... by hawguy · · Score: 1

      I believe that's the case everywhere - police are required by law to disclose the locations of the checkpoints. I couldn't find the specific law, but a lot of people seem to think it exists. (though instead of a law, it may be an NHTSA guideline that states follow voluntarily to ensure their checkpoint is constitutionally valid):

      http://www.drivinglaws.org/resources/dui-dwi/aggravated-dui/dui-checkpoints
      http://www.duiblock.com/FAQ/
      http://statepatrol.ohio.gov/sobcheck.stm

      So, the senate is trying to prevent people from finding out information that the police are required to publish? If publishing the location of checkpoints is required to make the checkpoint constitutionally valid, then isn't a constitutional violation to block that information from reaching the public?

      By publishing the location deep inside a newspaper or with a 30 second blurb on the news an hour before the checkpoint, the police may be following the letter of the law, but these apps seem to be meeting the spirit of the law.

  68. Re:Where in the Constitution? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A few senators were standing around one day and somebody mentioned this app, and thew others said it's a bad idea. The headline may as well read "3rd-grade teacher, zookeeper, astrophysicist, and bus driver to Apple".

    I've got to disagree. Even if they're not passing laws (yet?) the fact that they are Senators is important. Being Senators is why this was newsworthy; if some zookeepers said what they said, we wouldn't be hearing about it. When Senators say they want something stopped, there's an implicit threat there.

    Once upon a time, some people wanted musicians to stop singing about sex.

    One way of telling this story, is: "They got together, met with a few musicians, and asked them nicely to voluntarily stop doing it."

    The other way of telling this story, is: "They were Senators' wives and they got their husbands to hold Senate hearings, and a particularly obnoxious abusive Senator finally slipped into lying that he was talking about 'private action' and then Frank Zappa, barely containing a giggle, looked around at the Senate hearing chambers full of government people and said, 'This is private action?' and at that point, everyone knew they and their bullshit were caught red-handed."

    I subscribe to the second version of that story. They're Senators, not zookeepers, and that's relevant.

  69. Protected speech by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sorry congress critters, but the information these apps provide are protected speech under the first amendment. Period.

    If you don't like it, please leave, move to Iran, don't let the door hit y'all on the way out...you won't be missed..

    Frankly that goes for the hypocrites on both sides of the political spectrum that only defend the constitution when it's convenient, and otherwise use it like toilet paper.

  70. Re:Where in the Constitution? by gizmonic · · Score: 1

    There's far too many assholes out there who think they have a God-given right to ignore any law they don't like.

    Wait, did you just call Rosa Parks an asshole?

    --
    WWJD?
    JWRTFM!
  71. Re:Not weak by http · · Score: 1

    No, it's not weak. It's part of probably the strongest argument possible.

    DUI checkpoints are, pure and simple, arbitrary detention and investigation. The fact that I happen to be driving down the same road a checkpoint is on does not constitute probable cause to believe I've been involved in some criminal activity. I hear that Americans had to have their constitution fixed up a bit on this issue a while back, because powerhungry cops have historically neglected to apply common sense, and treated suspects like criminals. Something called the Borth Amendment or something.

    I'm neither a legal scholar, nor an American, so I could in fact be talking out my ass.

    --
    If opportunity came disguised as temptation, one knock would be enough.
    3^2 * 67^1 * 977^1
  72. Why do you have to be drunk to want this? by Mal-2 · · Score: 1

    I do not understand how it can be causally linked that this app somehow promotes drinking. Personally I would want to have (and contribute data to) this application even if I'm stone cold sober simply because CHECKPOINTS SUCK. You'd want to avoid an area that's stopped for an accident, why would you not want to avoid an area that is similarly stopped for a checkpoint?

    --
    How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
  73. Avoid unproven and unreliable breathalysers by chicago_scott · · Score: 1

    "Four U.S. senators Tuesday called on Apple to yank iPhone and iPad apps that help drunken drivers evade police..."

    The police and the private companies that make breathalysers should open these devices to public scrutiny to prove their reliability, until then people should be able to do everything in their power to avoid being forced to use these black boxes.

  74. Constitutional Issue, NOT the 1st amendment. by RingDev · · Score: 1

    One problem with that theory as it applies to sobriety check points...

    It is illegal for the state to sieze/search you for alcohol unless they have reasonable cause. Numerous judges have already found that being on the road after bar time in and of itself is not reasonable cause. So sobriety check points legal status depends not on their ability to catch unwitting drunk drivers, but in their publicized existance as a deturant.

    That's right, every sobriety check point (in the states that they are legal in) is advertised before hand. News papers, police web sites, local radio, etc... Not only is there no suprise here, there is Constitutional protection from these check points being set up as a suprise.

    The iPhone app is doing nothing that your local news papers and radio stations aren't already doing. And if Congress were to bar the distribution of this information, it would make the check points illegal.

    -Rick

    --
    "Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
    1. Re:Constitutional Issue, NOT the 1st amendment. by Aqualung812 · · Score: 1

      I assume you're talking about my suggestion about the police being on the "dirt road" to get the people avoiding the checkpoint.

      My point is that they could have their well-advertised checkpoint, and then just *observe* people on the "dirt road". When they see the guy puking out the window on the wrong side of the road, they'll have probable cause.

      --
      Grammer Nazis - I mod you "troll" unless you actually add something on-topic. Yes, I know I have mispellings in my sig.
  75. Not evading by markdavis · · Score: 1

    >"Four US senators on Tuesday called on Apple to yank iPhone and iPad apps that help drunken drivers evade police," "Pull iPhone DUI-Check Alerts"

    That is not "evading police". If anything it is avoiding entrapment and inconvenience. The practice of putting up a "check point" road block is dubious to say the least. They are subjecting people to search and seizure with ZERO probable cause.

    I don't like the idea of people driving drunk, and know it is a big social problem, but you don't just throw everyone's civil liberties out the window and cause major inconveniences as a "solution".

    Case in point- I have never consumed alcohol nor any illicit drug in my whole life. I got stuck on my motorcycle in one of those damn checkpoints. It wasted a considerable amount of my time as I had to wait in line in very hot weather in full riding gear, pull over, take off most of my riding gear, go into my pack to get my ID while the officers are looking at me like I am going to pull out a gun, wait, then reassemble everything. I also felt very uncomfortable and threatened by the situation.

    UNACCEPTABLE!

  76. Re:Where in the Constitution? by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

    According to the Supreme Court, cops are not allowed to stop *every* car along a highway --- only the ones they suspect of drinking.

    What Supreme Court decision declared checkpoints illegal? They either must have Reasonable Suspicion, or they can pull over everyone and check everyone. So, rather than actually having to watch drivers, they just stop everyone at checkpoints. And last I heard, that was ok with the Supreme Court.