Wozniak: I Would Consider Returning To Apple

Google85 writes "Steve Wozniak told Reuters he would consider returning to an active role at Apple, the company he co-founded, and believes the consumer electronics giant could afford to be more open than it is."

Comments

Has he done anything after that?

[toQDuj]

Sorry to be obtuse, but has he done anything of note recently? I only know him from his achievements in the distant past...

Re:Has he done anything after that?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well isn't that acute...

Re:Has he done anything after that?

[rolfwind]

Yes, he's a member of a Segway Polo team.

Re:Has he done anything after that?

[Anonymous Coward]

From tfa:

"There's just an awful lot I know about Apple products and competing products that has some relevance, some meaning. They're my own feelings, though," said Wozniak, who is currently chief scientist of storage start-up Fusion-io.

Post Apple Career.

Stop being obtuse.

Re:Has he done anything after that?

[Anonymous Coward]

His engineering skills are clearly obsolete by several decades, but he can be an advisor, as he uses other tech, unlike the current leader of the cult. He is a man that can mend bridges. Apple's bubble won't last forever, and like Sony, they're building an army of haters and pissed off consumers that are fed up with the lock-in on their toys/phones.

Re:Has he done anything after that?

[macs4all]

His engineering skills are clearly obsolete by several decades

Wrong.

Re:Has he done anything after that?

[jdpars]

Looks like all he's done is use his old Apple connections to "start up" several companies that all later closed.

Re:Has he done anything after that?

[Bitch-Face Jones]

You know Kathy Griffin? Yeah, he tapped that.

Re:Has he done anything after that?

[clang_jangle]

Apple's bubble won't last forever, and like Sony, they're building an army of haters and pissed off consumers that are fed up with the lock-in on their toys/phones.

They turned me into a newt! I got better...

Re:Has he done anything after that?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well played, sir. Well played.

Re:Has he done anything after that?

[Concerned Onlooker]

Yep. I hate my Apple products so much I regularly buy new ones just so I can have something to complain about.

Re:Has he done anything after that?

[Hognoxious]

Stop being obtuse.

Sure, when you stop being obese.

And get a shave, you look like a goddam caveman.

Got that, Woz?

Re:Has he done anything after that?

[Anonymous Coward]

Jobs never had any engineering skills and he made himself useful after learning a bit of humility so there is a place for Woz.

Re:Has he done anything after that?

[Kyusaku Natsume]

Maybe you are joking, but I doubt that Woz needs to do that taking into account all the wives and girlfriends that he had in his life. Looks like his intelligence and good humor are the main source of his sex appeal.

Re:Has he done anything after that?

[mwvdlee]

The last thing Apple needs is somebody that actually cares about their customers' freedom.

Re:Has he done anything after that?

[Kyusaku Natsume]

He was a cofounder of Danger, Inc., I will put it has a one of his recent, post Apple note worthy achievements. Also, he has put a strong commitment toward education; I'm sure that the kids that he helped will remember him for the rest of their life.

Woz is more like a modern day Nikola Tesla. Steve Jobs is a strange mix of Jules Verne and Thomas Alva Edison. For Woz is more important to have fun doing what he does than being rich and famous. For Jobs, is quality and perfection. To each his own.

Re:Has he done anything after that?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why.

Re:Has he done anything after that?

[houstonbofh]

But several were closed after selling off assets. Kinda the point of a technology incubator.

Re:Has he done anything after that?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, what would you do if you had an accident which affected your brain?

Though it's arguable the brain is (currently) the most resilient part we have... maybe reinventing himself would be the greatest achievement; OTOH, he turned to music and other things (I really am too far from Woz to know anything about him).

Hmm, it seems JWZ also turned to music... maybe he had a brain accident, too... mwahahaha (Vincent Price-like laughter)

Now, seriously, instead of returning to Apple... why not starting Orange -- or better yet, Carrot (because it's said to be more orange than an orange!) It it's Woz, he could really make some really cool patches to Linux...

Re:Has he done anything after that?

[citizenr]

You know Kathy Griffin?

Yeah, he tapped that.

Are you that stupid? Cant you tell PR and RealityTV from reality?

Re:Has he done anything after that?

[Servaas]

Legend tells of a tragic-grief strikken fly getting right in front of Woz's face and screaming like a fly possesed for Woz to hit me! Hit me you bitch! And Woz only smiled at the fly. And the fly wept tears of joy.

Re:Has he done anything after that?

[stewski]

I don't believe the only man who has given anything approaching true innovation to apple has successfully marketed a product based on other obvious technology recently no.

Heaven forbid tech companies employ engineers when business and experts at the "lock in" are clearly more valuable, heavens next we'll suggest that doodie head schmidt moves aside for someone who at least once had a productive idea!

Or that people who become massively wealthy off or heavily utilise the web in their business actually listen to or take the advice of Tim Berners Lee

Re:Has he done anything after that?

[Bitch-Face Jones]

Is your Asperger's syndrome so bad that you can't differentiate a serious post from a tongue-in-cheek joke?

Re:Has he done anything after that?

[neoform]

>Sorry to be obtuse

5 weeks in the hole Dufresne.

Re:Has he done anything after that?

[antdude]

He was in Dancing With Stars, but didn't get far. :P

Re:Has he done anything after that?

[SpzToid]

Steve Jobs has learned to be humble? When did that happen?

Re:Has he done anything after that?

[shaitand]

yeah, his insanely vast wealth is hardly even a factor...

Re:Has he done anything after that?

[kangsterizer]

Hes' been teaching kids and giving speech since forever. He's actually a pretty good guy. Not so interested into making more money than he already has, or conquer markets. More into the human side of things, and into "doing the right thing" kind of stuff.

Re:Has he done anything after that?

[pandrijeczko]

He said the word "Please" when he was begging for a new liver.

Re:Has he done anything after that?

[mrchaotica]

Don't all companies sell off assets when they close? I think there's a word for it: liquidation.

Re:Has he done anything after that?

[Anonymous Coward]

Good thing the 'chans' have posted so much stuff worse than link that I'd have to consider it 'tame', almost safe for work even.

Re:Has he done anything after that?

[Anonymous Coward]

You can't judge him based on the failure to reproduce the success of Apple in other start-ups he is involved in. Start-ups don't work that way. Too many things are out of your control and much of the success while in your control is also not in your control depending on how things go with market forces, other companies, and so forth. This is why venture capitalists take such a huge cut when they make an investment in your company. You are up against players much bigger whom could wipe you out by entering the market. If you don't get a lock in (well, a formula where it is difficult for others to compete with you) on the market you are very unlikely to survive. The difficulty in that is probably 10 to 1 against you if not more. I hate Apple and every thing it stands for. However I wouldn't judge based on these other failures.

Re:Has he done anything after that?

[Parafilmus]

His engineering skills are clearly obsolete by several decades

[citation needed]

Re:Has he done anything after that?

[Anonymous Coward]

Is that a thinly veiled request for CP?

BRB, but rest assured that Anonymous (Coward) WILL delivar.

Re:Has he done anything after that?

[Anonymous Coward]

[Citation needed]

Re:Has he done anything after that?

[lord_rob the only on]

Too bad I can't mod anymore. :-) You made me laugh man ! I love black humor

Re:Has he done anything after that?

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

Apple cares about their customers' freedom. Of course, that doesn't mean it's the main thing they're concerned with when designing products and services.

Re:Has he done anything after that?

[Hognoxious]

I love black humor

More than you love black turtlenecks?

Why tell the world?

[jordanjay29]

And not Apple? This sounds more like a PR stunt than a serious offer, or an off-the-cuff remark he offered in an interview that some reporter's sensationalized. If Woz had intentions of returning to Apple, he'd probably phone up Jobs or another company exec, and not Reuters.

Re:Why tell the world?

[WrongSizeGlass]

FTFA:

"I'd consider it, yeah," the 60-year-old computer engineer said in an interview, when asked whether he would play a more active role if asked.

Someone asked him the question so he answered it.

Re:Why tell the world?

[FooAtWFU]

Yeah; if he's saying "it could afford to be more open" it sounds like he has a little bit of an agenda there which may not be aligned with the current direction Apple is going or its shareholder's best interests. So, despite other qualifications, he might not be the best guy for the job.

Re:Why tell the world?

[Anonymous Coward]

You are a fucking moron. Even if you couldn't be bothered to actually read the interview before you posted your hare-brained speculation, a moment thought would have led you to the reasonable guess that he was ASKED the fucking question during an INTERVIEW. Jeez are you an idiot.

Re:Why tell the world?

[contrapunctus]

just post the damn url, i'm not going to click on a tinyurl link and get goatse'd or something...

Re:Why tell the world?

[517714]

Many consumers like Apple products because they make it easy to buy and consume content without glitches, but the closed system that makes this possible locks customers and media and software providers into Apple's proprietary iTunes online store and iOS operating system. Some critics compare it to Microsoft in that regard.

Nobody asked the question, the reporter just made it up.

Re:Why tell the world?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know if Apple were a little more open I would probably own a Mac-book, an Ipod, and maybe even occasionally use Itunes.

As it stands I'm a Linux Mint user who buys from system76 and builds my own and I get my media from Pandora radio and Jamendo.

Re:Why tell the world?

[macs4all]

And not Apple?

1. Who says he hasn't?

2. Knowing Woz since 1978, I can tell you that he is one of the most OPEN persons on the planet. If you ask him a question, he will answer, unless the answer requires divulging a secret R&D project, and then he can hardly contain himself! I remember having some phone conversations back around 1979 regarding some work on what was to eventually become the Lisa (yes, the article was dead wrong. He worked on the Lisa project, as well as the pretty much only designer of the Apple 1 and ][, as well as the principal naysayer regarding the reliability-killing overcomplexity of the Apple /// design!). And, everyone forgets that he is the principal designer of the Apple ][ gs; a machine that was sadly just a little too late to the party, but a DAMNED fine update!

And knowing Woz for as long as I have, I can also tell you that his answer was NOT "off-the-cuff". He puts thought into every question in every situation. That's just the the "engineer" in him.

Re:Why tell the world?

[Culture20]

Turn on tinyurl preview and you won't. It's one of the few safer URL shorteners.

Re:Why tell the world?

[fbartho]

http://tinyurl.com/preview.php -- you can turn on previewing for tinyurl, so at least you know where the first hop leads to...

Re:Why tell the world?

[fbartho]

Doh! One has to also recognize data urls. *sigh*

Re:Why tell the world?

[SecurityGuy]

Because the world is interested in the answer. Apple isn't. If Apple was interested in having him back, he'd be back already, dontcha think?

Seriously, if all you bring is knowing about Apple's products and Apple's competitor's products, they already have people who do that. What else ya got?

Re:Why tell the world?

[ColdWetDog]

Doh! One has to also recognize data urls. *sigh*

Or just don't click on links offered by people with UIDs > 2E6 and no posting history. Eternal September and all that.

Re:Why tell the world?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah, that takes me back to a simpler time, when goatse was the most disgusting thing I'd seen on the internet. Now it seems almost quaint.

Re:Why tell the world?

[shaitand]

"Yeah; if he's saying "it could afford to be more open" it sounds like he has a little bit of an agenda there which may not be aligned with the current direction Apple is going or its shareholder's best interests."

Or he might be correctly identifying that Apple's current direction isn't in its shareholder's best interests and therefore be the best guy for the job.

It sounds like you might have a personal agenda that makes you equate being open with reduced profitability.

Re:Why tell the world?

[Anonymous Coward]

Your kidding right? Apple is right up there with Exxon for profits and you think the shareholders are upset with the current business model? I swear the ./ crowd gets more delusional every day...

Re:Why tell the world?

[shaitand]

"Apple is right up there with Exxon for profits and you think the shareholders are upset with the current business model?"

Believe it or not, not all shareholders are day traders. Some people actually care about the companies long term prospects, not just the current quarter. Apple is losing marketshare to Google across the board in their ios based products which is the current flagship and the primary area Woz is undoubtedly referring to.

ios has an edge over android os in almost every area so why are they losing marketshare to android os hand over fist? Because people are willing to invest in a company with a "do no evil" mantra and an open platform. Even if people don't truely understand open they get the benefits. They get third party app availability and not having to buy a new phone just because the provider wants to try to use an OS update as leverage to force them.

Google just burned everyone by refusing to open up the new tablet system so this is a perfect time for Apple to go open.

The last time apple went slightly open it essentially borrowed BSD to turn MacOS into a viable and modern operating system again and that was a big win.

Re:Why tell the world?

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank god Woz has a such good close friend to look out for him on all the Internet chit-chat forums.

Re:Why tell the world?

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank god Woz has a such good close friend to look out for him on all the Internet chit-chat forums.

Somebody's Jeal-oussss!

Great!

[Grindalf]

Digital Beige Box here we come! Muahahahahahahahaahahaha!

Right on Woz!

[MoldySpore]

See? Not everyone associated with Apple has the same mantra as Steve Job's closed off bricks of user inaccessibility and locked down interfaces that tell the user they can't modify their own hardware or software without voiding a warranty. It took the judicial system to rule that it was legal to jail break an iPhone. I have a feeling that if Woz was still a major player in Apple's development and ways of thinking, this would have never been necessary. I say kick that turtle-neck wearing skeleton outta there and reinstate Woz as new Apple overlord! ;)

Re:Right on Woz!

[metaomni]

Yeah! Apple totally should entirely change its business model. I mean, it's not like they've gone from almost-dead to the second-largest market cap company in the United States under Steve Jobs.

Re:Right on Woz!

[UnknowingFool]

See? Not everyone associated with Apple has the same mantra as Steve Job's closed off bricks of user inaccessibility and locked down interfaces that tell the user they can't modify their own hardware or software without voiding a warranty.

I agree with you that jailbreaking should be legal but are you stating that Apple or any manufacturer should honor their warranties regardless of what modifications you made? Doesn't that set an unreasonable expectation of support? By logic, does Ford have to service your engine even if you've replaced it with a Chevy engine?

Re:Right on Woz!

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple or any manufacturer should honor their warranties regardless of what modifications you made?

If the problem causing a warranty return is hardware related and all I've modified is software then yeah.

Re:Right on Woz!

[HelioWalton]

Let's put this in to a car analogy:

A person gets his car remapped. This can include things like unlocking a maximum speed set by the company. Consider this as the "jailbreaking" of the car. It is possible that the car company put that limit there in order to prevent excessive wear due to crazy speeds.

"But all I did was modify the software!". Nope, no warranty, since you put the engine outside of it's expected engine parameters. Maybe going extra fast made the engine really hot and melted it into a molten block of metal.

Same thing here.

Re:Right on Woz!

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah! Apple totally should entirely change its business model. I mean, it's not like they've gone from almost-dead to the second-largest market cap company in the United States under Steve Jobs.

Yeah! Who would have ever guessed that if you buy 10's of thousands of slaves you can drive your profit margins through the roof?

Give me as many slaves as Steve Jobs owns in China and I'll build you a better fucking computer, guaran-fucking-teed.

Re:Right on Woz!

[NiceGeek]

Please don't pretend that every other electronics/computer manufacturer doesn't do exactly the same thing. It doesn't justify Apple's actions, but until I see you ranting about Dell or HP, I'll consider you a hypocrite.

Re:Right on Woz!

[russotto]

"But all I did was modify the software!". Nope, no warranty, since you put the engine outside of it's expected engine parameters. Maybe going extra fast made the engine really hot and melted it into a molten block of metal.

The burden of demonstrating that the failure was due to the modification is on the car maker, however.

Re:Right on Woz!

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

No.

Woz is an engineer, not a manager.

Besides, the closed off mentality only came about during iOS. OSX is still very much open. Hell, the kernel is open sourced!

Re:Right on Woz!

[UnknowingFool]

Depends on what you consider a modification. Installing or removing apps is not considered voiding the warrant. Changing the configuration using standard methods like the UI does not void the warranty. Replacing the OS with one that the technician has no experience and Apple has not tested with their hardware should void the warranty. Remember that some modifications could damage hardware. That innocuous setting that overclocks the processor migh inadvertently fry it if run too long. The problem is Apple can no longer guarantee that the device is running as designed.

Re:Right on Woz!

[UnknowingFool]

No it isn't. Most warranties are agreements and as such they define what is and is not covered. They also spell which actions may void the warranty. Significant modifications not done at an authorized center voids the warranty. Normally modifications (if needed) must be also be done at authorized service center for liability reasons. If you take your car to any repair person, the maker cannot guarantee the modification was done the right way. If an authorized center consistently botches work, the maker can revoke their certifications until they fix whatever problems. You can probably sue but if the modification was not done by an authorized center, it doesn't matter if the modification did any damage at all; the warranty was already voided.

Re:Right on Woz!

[hedwards]

You do realize that if they hadn't chosen an inept business model in the first place that we'd likely be complaining about Apple's monopoly over the desktop market, right? There were a lot of inept decisions which led to the near demise of Apple, but being too open wasn't really one of them. (Depending upon how you count allowing other manufacturers to make hardware that could run their OS

One of the reasons that Apple lost out was the lack of openness to the platform, there were other problems, but that wasn't helping them any.

Re:Right on Woz!

[russotto]

No it isn't.

Yes, it is. Look up the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, and the case law surrounding it.

Significant modifications not done at an authorized center voids the warranty.

This is specifically prohibited by 15 USC 2302(c).

Re:Right on Woz!

[fast turtle]

Software should have no possibility of fragging hardware and thus if the hardware is failing, then it should be covered under warranty. Of course, we all recall the LG Burner fiasco don't we? That's the one where LG was doing something screwy and not following the specs and people were fragging their burners under Linux.

In the case of support, if it's not a supported software configuration IE: linux on a Dell windows box, then I can see software support being unable/unwilling to help as it's an unsupported configuration and the user is on their own but if it is a supported configuration (sold that way) then there should be no reason for the support department to waffle about providing support although they may be incompentent at it.

Re:Right on Woz!

[UnknowingFool]

Did you read the whole thing?

(c) Prohibition on conditions for written or implied warranty; waiver by Commission No warrantor of a consumer product may condition his written or implied warranty of such product on the consumer's using, in connection with such product, any article or service (other than article or service provided without charge under the terms of the warranty) which is identified by brand, trade, or corporate name; except that the prohibition of this subsection may be waived by the Commission if - (1) the warrantor satisfies the Commission that the warranted product will function properly only if the article or service so identified is used in connection with the warranted product, and (2) the Commission finds that such a waiver is in the public interest.

Re:Right on Woz!

[UnknowingFool]

Software should have no possibility of fragging hardware and thus if the hardware is failing, then it should be covered under warranty. Of course, we all recall the LG Burner fiasco don't we? That's the one where LG was doing something screwy and not following the specs and people were fragging their burners under Linux.

With software and hardware, any foolproof system can be defeated by ingenious fools. There's a reason why lawnmowers have warnings on them that you should lift while the thing is running. It seems like common sense but some idiot will think he can turn his lawnmower into a hedge trimmer. Of course lawnmowers could, at great expense, be designed so that keep idiots from cutting their hands but they would be so expensive that no one would buy them.

When you make modifications, you should be prepared that you may ruin your system.

In the case of support, if it's not a supported software configuration IE: linux on a Dell windows box, then I can see software support being unable/unwilling to help as it's an unsupported configuration and the user is on their own but if it is a supported configuration (sold that way) then there should be no reason for the support department to waffle about providing support although they may be incompentent at it.

The problem may not know exactly what you did or how it affects the device. They didn't and can't test every scenario. They can only support configurations that they know about.

Re:Right on Woz!

[Anonymous Coward]

But Apple builds the same old crap as every other computer manufacturer, most of which actually do build a better fucking computer. Capitalism isn't about who makes the best product, it's about who is the best at making a shitty product look appealing.

Re:Right on Woz!

[Anonymous Coward]

So has the Commission granted such a waiver to Apple/Ford/ACME/whoever you two were talking about?

Do they have a reasonable case that might be expected to "satisfy the Commission that the warranted product will function properly only if the article or service so identified is used in connection with the warranted product"?

Or are you just bringing up a clearly irrelevant exception to avoid admitting you're wrong?

Re:Right on Woz!

[UnknowingFool]

The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act was never intended to grant blanket immunity to any modification. Section (c) especially was made so that a manufacturer like Ford could not force you to use their service centers for all repairs large and small or risk voiding the warranty. It allows the existence of third party authorized service centers and subsection (1) gives the exception that necessary repairs should be done by the manufacturer (or authorized service center) to be covered by warranty.

If it were not the case that would lead to absurd results like Ford having to service for free the Chevy engine that you put into your car after you bought it. If you don't believe you can consult with any attorney. Or better yet, replace your engine and see if the Ford dealership will honor your warranty. And when you wave the act in front of them, see if they don't laugh at you.

Re:Right on Woz!

[Draek]

So open that if you modify it then sell your Mac, you're liable for copyright infringement (see also: Psystar).

Apple has been a bunch of lawsuit-happy control freaks since before iOS was even dreamt up by Your Holiness Stevie.

Re:Right on Woz!

[beelsebob]

Software should have no possibility of fragging hardware and thus if the hardware is failing,

Ah, then you support apple locking the device down so that you can't do certain things that might damage the hardware?

Re:Right on Woz!

[russotto]

The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act was never intended to grant blanket immunity to any modification. Section (c) especially was made so that a manufacturer like Ford could not force you to use their service centers for all repairs large and small or risk voiding the warranty. It allows the existence of third party authorized service centers and subsection (1) gives the exception that necessary repairs should be done by the manufacturer (or authorized service center) to be covered by warranty.

Section (c) does not allow the manufacturer to require the of use third party authorized service centers either, unless the waiver has been granted. If you put a Chevy engine in your Ford, the Ford warranty would not apply to the Chevy engine. But Ford would not be allowed to void the warranty on some other item just because a Chevy engine was installed. With an engine, Ford would be able to successfully deny many warranty claims on the grounds that the Chevy engine had _caused_ the problem. But they can't just blanket void the car's warranty because an aftermarket part was used.

Re:Right on Woz!

[Anonymous Coward]

until I see you ranting about Dell or HP, I'll consider you a hypocrite.

I'm sure you will; so are we good now?

Signed,
AC

Re:Right on Woz!

[daithesong]

nobody 'gave' Steve anything; he built a business. you have the same opportunity to build one. have you done so?

Re:Right on Woz!

[maccodemonkey]

Apple lost share when they began licensing Mac OS. Sure, they had made a lot of mistakes before that. But there is a good argument one of the best strengths of Mac OS was hardware lockdown which enabled more stable computing.

As soon as Apple stopped licensing Mac OS they started becoming profitable again.

Re:Right on Woz!

[portalcake625]

The kernel is open, read up on APSL. The various frameworks and closed source programs in OS X however, are not. And IIRC, the open-source Darwin (OpenDarwin now?) project still can't run without certain closed-source drivers.

Re:Right on Woz!

[UnknowingFool]

If you replaced the Ford engine with a Chevy one, a majority of what your warranty was designed to cover is null and void. Yes the interior is still covered but the engine is an essential part. Also you don't have to replace the whole engine. What if you put in custom intake manifolds? What if you replace the computer's programming with your own? Will Ford still cover your engine? It gets very tricky as (from the perspective of Ford), they cannot guarantee that your car will and should run like it was designed to run. Why should they cover any and all modifications?

Re:Right on Woz!

[shilly]

Oh look, the new use of the word better I've heard all about, when what it means is worse. Unless someone else is out there building their professional grade laptops from solid hunks of aluminium so that bits don't fall off, which for damn sure lenovo ain't doing.

Re:Right on Woz!

[Anonymous Coward]

It is mostly the same thing that happened to IBM around the same time with microchanel. They kept changing the platform. Sure they were 'better' platforms. But the market was not ready for it and they were trying a lockin. But Apple does similar things.

IBM went from *THE* pc to buy to the last one to buy in the corporate market because of that one maneuver. Apple seriously could not make up its mind about what the platform should be. It takes 2-4 years to make software front to end (for most packages). If your platform changes 1-2 times during that time you can add in 1-2 years. Meanwhile your competitors have ate your lunch.

Before anyone 'says oh that isnt true'. I went thru 3 companies because of it. Each one ending up defunct because of burning thru all of the cash because of QA/dev spin. They each had very cool competitive products. 98% done 'sorry out of cash we sold to someone else and your whole project is redundant now and so are you'. I gave up chasing apple. I went with MS tool chains. They have given me a steady job instead of 'your about to go under next week'. Mark my words if you are using Apple they *WILL* burn you. They have burned every gen of devs since 1982. It is why now I am simply an Apple consumer instead of a dev.

Apple is a greedy company that makes MS seem like mother Teressa comparatively. They make 'cool' stuff but that cool comes at a high cost. Many people do not care if there is a fungible product that is similar but cheaper. It is why Android is eating iOS's market share.

Greed is why Apple lost out. They were 'too' greedy. It is their way or no way. It has always been that way. MS for the amount of bashing they do damn near bend over backwards to make sure your existing investments work. Maybe not great but at least work. Apple they just throw it all out and say 'sucks to be you'. You can almost hear the evil cackle of 'bwa hahaha'.

Also at critical times they charged exorbitant amounts for their dev kits. 1995 full dev kit setup computer and all about 3-4k. Same Apple setup 25k. Then 'jobs came back' and he destroyed any 3rd party he saw competing with Apple proper. At that point it became clear that Apple did not care about their 3rd party OEM's (of which we were one at the time). It became very clear to us we need to put as much distance between Apple and us. It was too late for us. The Mac market imploded (what little there was). Our customers ran to our MS competitors.

When Apple stops doing that they will see their market share rise.

It seriously stuns me the way Apple throws away the golden goose. They get huge thriving developer communities and then say 'sorry we dont do that anymore'. They get what many companies would sell their souls for and the turn their backs on it. Hell the current iOS dev market was an accident and at least this time they had the sense to see they could make a cool market from it.

Re:Right on Woz!

[dgatwood]

That's completely irrelevant to the question of software for purely electronic devices, though. With the exception of software that directly controls mechanical devices, it is almost impossible for software to permanently damage hardware, so long as it does not attempt to rewrite firmware in a hard-to-reverse way. That's the whole point of layer separation in computers.

As such, changing the software is closer to keeping the Ford engine and mechanical bits, but replacing the shell of the car and its interior with a fiberglass conversion body. Obviously, Ford won't be held responsible for the paint peeling off, but that doesn't absolve them of liability for failures in the drivetrain.

Re:Right on Woz!

[Anonymous Coward]

Install a mod that overclocks your processor or that reduces the fan speed to eliminate unwanted noise, resulting in overheating and meltdown, and then try to get your processor warrantied while leaving your modifications in place. You wouldn't get far. The iPhone is a sealed unit, meaning it is replaced as a whole. It is not a car where you go in and get new tires, or a new engine, or even a paint job. If you void the warranty, then the phone is no longer covered because it is sold and replaced as a single unit, not as individual components.

Re:Right on Woz!

[dgatwood]

If it is even possible to overheat your processor to the point that it causes damage, the CPU wasn't designed correctly. Period. Because if you can do it through overclocking, somebody else can do it by leaving the phone on the dashboard or hitting a kernel bug that puts the CPU in a tight loop.

Re:Right on Woz!

[sjames]

Ford does have an obligation to service the engine if I change the wheels or the interior. By law, they cannot void my warranty even if I use a non-Ford brand oil and air filter unless they can actually demonstrate (not just claim) that they caused the problem.

Why should Apple get to automatically void the hardware warranty if I run alternative software? Shouldn't they have to demonstrate that the particular software I ran actually caused the failure first? (note the complete lack of reports about jailbroken iPhones burned out by software)

It's find if they insist the phone be tested in a known default condition first (load approved firmware), but they shouldn't even try to prevent the user from loading alternative firmware.

No, Ford doesn't have to service your retrofitted Chevy engine, but people are changing software, not swapping out the chips or board.

Re:Right on Woz!

[UnknowingFool]

That wasn't the main point of the discussion. The main point is that should a manufacturer be forced to honor any warranty even though the product has been modified significantly by the consumer. For most significant modifications, the manufacturer will void the warranty. From the manufacturer's standpoint, they cannot know everything that was done. In cases where the product has not failed, modifications could have been done that significantly affected the performance and/or lifetime of the device. With enough time and effort they could possibly investigate in great detail but why should they? If you make modifications to a device, you should be prepared to live with any consequences which at the base level is voiding the warranty.

Re:Right on Woz!

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

What Psystar did was more than just selling a hacked kernel, they sold whole machines with the OS preinstalled on it. That's not getting in trouble for "modify then sell your Mac" that's, "Trying to sell something you don't have the license to modify and sell in bulk."

Re:Right on Woz!

[tlhIngan]

So open that if you modify it then sell your Mac, you're liable for copyright infringement (see also: Psystar).

Would you advocate breaking the terms of the GPL as well?

Psystar not only pissed off Apple (by distributing copyrighted content that wasn't open-source), but they pissed off the people who made it possible (the OSX86 folks). It got so bad the licensing terms added "no commercial use".

Psystar basically ripped off everyone. And yet, Apple hasn't bothered going after all the Hackintosh folks.

Re:Right on Woz!

[dryeo]

Err, the Woz gave him a computer to build the business around. Without Wozniak Jobs would have had nothing to sell and without the computer that Wozniak designed to generate income the Mac would have failed.

Re:Right on Woz!

[dgatwood]

Why should the manufacturer investigate? Because the law puts the burden of proof on the shoulders of the company that is trying to weasel out of terms of the contract (warranty), just as it should be. If the company wants to not honor the warranty, that's fine, but if they can't provide at minimum a preponderance of evidence that the mod caused the damage, they will lose in court. Thus, it is in their best interest to do due diligence.

More to the point, if the cost of doing due diligence is too high, it is usually in their best interest to give the customer the benefit of the doubt and honor the warranty. This is by design. In general, the company that created the product has vastly more power in dictating warranty terms than the customer. Magnuson-Moss attempts to level that playing field just a little by eliminating a common source of abuse. It was originally intended to allow customers to buy lower cost aftermarket replacement parts for cars. That is to say, it was specifically designed to cover what you describe as "significant modifications".

Re:Right on Woz!

[Anonymous Coward]

Ford would service your engine if you replaced your seat belts, though.

Changing software should in no way void hardware warranties. The mere thought that it would is mind-boggling.

Re:Right on Woz!

[UnknowingFool]

Why should the manufacturer investigate? Because the law puts the burden of proof on the shoulders of the company that is trying to weasel out of terms of the contract (warranty), just as it should be. If the company wants to not honor the warranty, that's fine, but if they can't provide at minimum a preponderance of evidence that the mod caused the damage, they will lose in court. Thus, it is in their best interest to do due diligence.

So a manufacturer not wanting to support someone's significant modification is "weaseling out"?

buy lower cost aftermarket replacement parts for cars. That is to say, it was specifically designed to cover what you describe as "significant modifications".

A replacement part is not a significant modification by definition. A replacement part normally "replaces" the same function as the original part. Replacing the manufacturer's oil pump with one similar is not significant. Replacing it with a pump not designed for that car is a modification.

possibly

[William Robinson]

Dear Steve,

Everything is forgotten. Come back and take charge of 'iPod killer' division.

Steve Ballmer

That would be interesting

[FudRucker]

1. Steve jobs retires or dies from his poor health.

2. The woz takes over at apple, rebuilds the OS licensed as GNU/FOSS.

2. ???

3. Profit!!!

Re:That would be interesting

[tokul]

1. Steve jobs retires or dies from his poor health.

Or he dies in car accident when his car accelerates uncontrollably for some unknown reason.

Re:That would be interesting

[AHuxley]

3. Apple gets real TRIM for all supported SSD. (based on his past interest in the disc/storage areas)

Re:That would be interesting

[macs4all]

3. Apple gets real TRIM for all supported SSD. (based on his past interest in the disc/storage areas)

I believe that is coming in OS X 10.7 (Lion), and if you're a bit handy (pun intended), you can enable it now in 10.6 (Snow Leopard).

Re:That would be interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

The car accelerated due to an unlicensed modification to the stereo system.

apple needs to be open to more hardware choice

[Joe The Dragon]

apple needs to be open to more hardware choice.

What is so bad about makeing it easier to swap the HDD in the imac / mini?
What is so bad about desktop a system with imac power levels without a build in screen?

If apple does not want mini towers then lower the price of the base mac pro to $1500-$2000 or have a bigger mini system with a 7200RPM HDD at least (320GB-500GB) or SDD. Better video then on board video / intel video. AMD new on board video system in the cpu may be ok and desktop ram with 4gb at the base. Also have at least a desktop i5. NO i3 or i3 on board video.

But if apple where to have a mini tower have it with desktop i5 or i7, 2-4 HDD slots / bays, 4-6 ram slots (based on what chip set is used), pci-e X16 video slot + pci-e X16 slot (X4 speed) or TB port. Maybe have a higher system with room for dual video cards or just X16 + X16 (does not need to full X16 speed) + TB port.
and 1-2 ODD bays.

or just open OSX to non apple hardware.

Re:apple needs to be open to more hardware choice

[zlogic]

What is so bad about makeing it easier to swap the HDD in the imac / mini?

Because Apple can earn a couple hundered bucks. And also charge more for the Apple-certified HDD.

What is so bad about desktop a system with imac power levels without a build in screen?

There is one, it's called Mac Mini.

If you want a tower, get a Mac Pro.

Re:apple needs to be open to more hardware choice

[superdude72]

The last time they licensed the operating system to non-Apple hardware it nearly killed the company.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macintosh_clone

I'd expect them to license the OS again approximately when hell freezes over.

As a tech support professional who supported a mixed environment of Mac clone desktops, Windows 95 desktops, and Sun Solaris servers in the mid-90s, however, I hope I'm wrong about this. That environment was a tech support full-employment act! We had four full time staffers doing tech support for an office of 30 employees! Good times.

Re:apple needs to be open to more hardware choice

[superdude72]

I should add, we assembled many of the desktop systems ourselves to save money. Woo-ee! What a tech support full-employment act!

Re:apple needs to be open to more hardware choice

[Registered Coward v2]

The last time they licensed the operating system to non-Apple hardware it nearly killed the company.

It probably would be worse this time around since Apple now essentially uses industry standard hardware. Clone makers could take advantage of the economies of scale to introduce less expensive, and possibly higher perfuming, machines. They probably would not have quit the build quality of Apple but could get close enough that Apple would find it hard to maintain any significant price premium. OS sales probably wouldn't make up for the lost revenue to maintain development of OSX at its current level; so licensing it would make even less sense today.

In addition, Apple has been big on developing a closed, tightly integrated eco system - clones would threaten this as design proliferate and Apple can't be sure of what hardware the OS is using; making it harder to maintain that "power on and it works" design mantra.

Finally, they've been wildly successful to date and companies generally don't change when they are on a roll. That doesn't mean they'll still be around in 10 years but it is hard to argue against success.

Re:apple needs to be open to more hardware choice

[macs4all]

If you want a tower, get a Mac Pro.

Ya know, I've been an Apple fan (not fanboi!) and owner since the Apple 1, and I'm with the GP on this one. I'd LOVE to have an affordable Mac mini-tower with a few PCIe slots (3 would probably do), that cost closer to the iMac than the Mac Pro.

However, having said that, I'm pretty sure that when Thunderbolt catches on, we'll all (well, not ALL, this IS /. afterall!) start thinking OUTSIDE of the box...

Re:apple needs to be open to more hardware choice

[macs4all]

The last time they licensed the operating system to non-Apple hardware it nearly killed the company.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macintosh_clone

I'd expect them to license the OS again approximately when hell freezes over.

As a tech support professional who supported a mixed environment of Mac clone desktops, Windows 95 desktops, and Sun Solaris servers in the mid-90s, however, I hope I'm wrong about this. That environment was a tech support full-employment act! We had four full time staffers doing tech support for an office of 30 employees! Good times.

Boy, did YOU guys have the PHBs snowed!

And what percentage of your support was the Macs? And did you have any REAL Macs? What was the support percentage of THOSE machines?

Inquiring minds want to know...

Re:apple needs to be open to more hardware choice

[UnknowingFool]

apple needs to be open to more hardware choice.

There is an ongoing debate about the paradox of choice. Apple has chosen less choice. It simplifies their product line for them. Remember Apple is selling to consumers in general and not specifically to geeks like you.

What is so bad about makeing it easier to swap the HDD in the imac / mini?
What is so bad about desktop a system with imac power levels without a build in screen?

The problem is you are only seeing from you, you, you. From Apple's perspective they have to compete in a very competitive market with Lenovo, Dell, HP, and others. They have distinguished themselves by picking which products and subsets of the market that will ensure they have customers. It's probably the reason they stopped making Xserves; they just wasn't enough market for them. Remember they have to employ engineers, support engineers, etc for every product. As a business they make product lines where they can have success and not ones where a small percentage like slashdot geeks care about.

If apple does not want mini towers then lower the price of the base mac pro to $1500-$2000 or have a bigger mini system with a 7200RPM HDD at least (320GB-500GB) or SDD. Better video then on board video / intel video. AMD new on board video system in the cpu may be ok and desktop ram with 4gb at the base. Also have at least a desktop i5. NO i3 or i3 on board video.

A Mac Pro is not a mini-tower desktop. It is a professional workstation. There's quite a difference between the two. A Mac Pro is designed for professionals to author photos, video, sound, graphics, etc. While you can write book reports in Word on them, that's not their intent. It's like asking why a heavy duty truck isn't good for transporting 6 people around. Different purposes, different designs.

But if apple where to have a mini tower have it with desktop i5 or i7, 2-4 HDD slots / bays, 4-6 ram slots (based on what chip set is used), pci-e X16 video slot + pci-e X16 slot (X4 speed) or TB port. Maybe have a higher system with room for dual video cards or just X16 + X16 (does not need to full X16 speed) + TB port. and 1-2 ODD bays.

Basically you've described a system that every computer manufacturer makes. Why should Apple compete in a crowded market where the margins are pretty thin just to make you happy.

Re:apple needs to be open to more hardware choice

[WCguru42]

What is so bad about makeing it easier to swap the HDD in the imac / mini?

Get a NAS box and call it a day.

Re:apple needs to be open to more hardware choice

[superdude72]

About half the desktop systems were Mac clones. No real Macs. And actually, in spite of the job security it wasn't that much fun supporting all these junky machines. From that job, I learned everything *not* to do.

Re:apple needs to be open to more hardware choice

[macs4all]

About half the desktop systems were Mac clones. No real Macs. And actually, in spite of the job security it wasn't that much fun supporting all these junky machines. From that job, I learned everything *not* to do.

Were they the Power Computing machines, or those junky Motorola clones?

Re:apple needs to be open to more hardware choice

[PwnzerDragoon]

possibly higher perfuming machines.

Agreed. I'm tired of the Eu de Jobs scent, let's see something a little more Gatesian for a change.

Re:apple needs to be open to more hardware choice

[Anonymous Coward]

OS X won the desktop Unix race. Get over it, kid.

Re:apple needs to be open to more hardware choice

[Registered Coward v2]

possibly higher perfuming machines.

Agreed. I'm tired of the Eu de Jobs scent, let's see something a little more Gatesian for a change.

Ah, the beauty of automatic correction and speel cheaking...

Re:apple needs to be open to more hardware choice

[Shadowmist]

What's so bad about those choices is that they all involve design compromises. which make the machine larger, cost more, and don't exactly help with core markets. Thing is all these things you want... are not relevant in Apple's marketing strategy. There is no benefit to apple to compromise it's prime market just to make a dozen tech geeks who probably still won't buy the product happy.

Re:apple needs to be open to more hardware choice

[shilly]

That's a pretty fucking dumb summary. Apple consumers don't buy Mac Pros, they buy laptops. The OP and GP were about Mac Pros, which are aimed at professionals, typically media & design folks who need workstations. Nobber.

Re:apple needs to be open to more hardware choice

[pandrijeczko]

Why do you think that no iPod, iPad or iPhone has a port for a memory card?

Because a 16GB MicroSD card probably costs around $20/£20/20€ but Apple can charge $80/£80/80€ for the difference in price between a 16GB device and its 32GB counterpart.

Re:apple needs to be open to more hardware choice

[White Flame]

Apple is not a consumer electronics company. They are not an enthusiast electronics company.

They are an electronics fashion company. Any decision like easy-access panels and room to tinker interferes with the more important fashion design.

Re:apple needs to be open to more hardware choice

[avatar139]

Any decision like easy-access panels and room to tinker interferes with the more important fashion design.

You know, it's funny you should say that, as I still have yet to see a PC maker/parts manufacturer come up with a mainstream case design that's even remotely as easy to provide access for servicing/tinkering with as this was:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_Mac_G4

A lot of us who worked on those systems back in the day (and some of the later ones that are still working nowadays unlike their PC counterparts I might note) can't help but feel screwed about the amount of hassle that doing something as simple as opening up a case on a desktop PC has entailed for us after viewing how easy the alternative design that Apple came up with for the Power Macs made things! ;)

Don't get me wrong, there are designs that Apple doesn't want you to mess around with (The Mini is a great example) but for something that's meant to be expandable, they do go to an effort to make it easier for you than the average PC company!

Apple is not a consumer electronics company. They are not an enthusiast electronics company.

They are an electronics fashion company.

Hmm...Yes, I can see how you can say that because clearly over 16.4 MILLION iPhones sold in just ONE QUARTER is obviously not indicative of a successful mainstream consumer electronics device! ;)

Re:apple needs to be open to more hardware choice

[cthulhu11]

Unfortunately, most affordable NAS boxes suck hard, and the ones that don't (eg. Synology) are expensive. I'd love to get a Synology box and hang all my storage off of it, but I don't have the $$$$ to spare, so my disks remain inside of and firewired to my MP/MBP.

Re:apple needs to be open to more hardware choice

[cthulhu11]

Also: o The slot would require a significant amount of physical space and probably another chip to interface with it o Many users are utterly and completely clueless regarding media types. I know a guy who's a CSO/FE manager at a software company who can't wrap his head around the idea that there's more than one flash format. He didn't understand why the CF card from my camera wouldn't work in the SD slot in his new TV, or why attaching the camera to the TV with a micro-USB cable wouldn't work either. In other words, the above products are designed to be uncluttered and Just Work. Complexity and potential to confuse customers who just want to use the thing are counter to that design philosophy. Personally, since I have no use for removable media in for my telephone, I don't give a shit.

Re:apple needs to be open to more hardware choice

[Kjella]

Basically you've described a system that every computer manufacturer makes. Why should Apple compete in a crowded market where the margins are pretty thin just to make you happy.

I know Apple is not about to change their mind over a slashdot post but... because they are already different in that it is a Mac. It runs OS X. It uses Mac software, not PC. It doesn't compete with a PC unless you install Windows on it. I've wanted to get a Mac but I think the choices suck. Between the iMac and the Mac Pro there's like the grand canyon of missing "normal" models. Their laptops look normal enough and I guess that's what most people are getting these days. I just don't get why everything have to be so different on the desktop side, though I guess it's because the Mac Pros are overkill for most people who bought them. If Apple gave them a choice, they'd rather just get a normal desktop.

Re:apple needs to be open to more hardware choice

[Anonymous Coward]

apple needs to be open to more hardware choice.

What is so bad about makeing it easier to swap the HDD in the imac / mini?
What is so bad about desktop a system with imac power levels without a build in screen?

If apple does not want mini towers then lower the price of the base mac pro to $1500-$2000 or have a bigger mini system with a 7200RPM HDD at least (320GB-500GB) or SDD. Better video then on board video / intel video. AMD new on board video system in the cpu may be ok and desktop ram with 4gb at the base. Also have at least a desktop i5. NO i3 or i3 on board video.

But if apple where to have a mini tower have it with desktop i5 or i7, 2-4 HDD slots / bays, 4-6 ram slots (based on what chip set is used), pci-e X16 video slot + pci-e X16 slot (X4 speed) or TB port. Maybe have a higher system with room for dual video cards or just X16 + X16 (does not need to full X16 speed) + TB port.
and 1-2 ODD bays.

or just open OSX to non apple hardware.

Says the master of incoherent babble. What are you talking about?

Re:apple needs to be open to more hardware choice

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

You know, many people like the fact that the iMac has a built-in screen. It's not like they're shipping them with poor quality LCDs. Why would most people want a different screen?

Re:apple needs to be open to more hardware choice

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

Guess you haven't heard of the Mac Pro. Easier to tinker with than any PC I've ever encountered. Guess you haven't heard of the MacBook Pro, either. Take the bottom panel off and you have access to the RAM, HDD, optical drive, and battery, among other things.

Re:apple needs to be open to more hardware choice

[White Flame]

[The PowerMac case]

Oh, right. When we had one of those (I think it was a G5), we always said "That sure is a nice case", as it absolutely genuinely was, but also in contrast that nothing else worked on the box. ;-)

Re: the iPhone sales, are you saying that a large number of people _didn't_ swarm to it because it was now fashionable to own an iPhone? I know a number of people who swarmed out to buy one, only to get rid of it some months later for some combination of cost reduction and better features elsewhere.

Re:apple needs to be open to more hardware choice

[avatar139]

[The PowerMac case]

Oh, right. When we had one of those (I think it was a G5), we always said "That sure is a nice case", as it absolutely genuinely was, but also in contrast that nothing else worked on the box. ;-)

Again, it's funny you should say that, as that certainly describes all of the PCs I've ever worked on, except I usually say, "that sure is a nice paint job," but I always end up several screws short of what's actually needed after putting a PC back together!

Whereas, whenever I take a Mac apart and put it pack together I end up with several left over, so I again, I would say that at least with Apple, you don't end up getting screwed over in that way with Mac/iOS case designs, LOL!

Re: the iPhone sales, are you saying that a large number of people _didn't_ swarm to it because it was now fashionable to own an iPhone? I know a number of people who swarmed out to buy one, only to get rid of it some months later for some combination of cost reduction and better features elsewhere.

Well, obviously I can't speak to your friends experiences, but I would point out that as far as I'm aware Apple has one of the lowest, if not THE lowest percentage of returns in the consumer electronics industry in general!

A good recent example of this was iPad had about 2% of Verizon Wireless in store returns, which may sound like a lot at first to some people but when you compare that to the 16% return rate of the Galaxy Tab you end up with one of the biggest reasons I'm so skeptical of all the hype generated by Android!

I'll freely admit that I'm certainly not the world's biggest fan of the Genius Bar, but there's a reason that even in mainstream PC publications Apple generally comes out way ahead of the competition in terms of customer satisfaction/support surveys, as they've always put a lot of money and resources into Applecare not to mention building an actual support base/community by supporting a lot of training and lines of communication between them and people who provide support working at third party companies with the Apple Authorized Service Provider program!

Again, when you compare what Apple's done there to the competition, who generally treats consumer level support as more of an afterthought in their business model, not to mention having the nerve to charge third party support companies for what is essentially a REALLY expensive rubber stamp logo to hang on their window or business card, you really see the contrast there. ;)

To be fair, that behavior does actually makes sense on the part of the competition though, considering a lot of what they sell are essentially meant to be ultra cheap, ultra disposable computers that are reliant on the business model of high sales margins in order to be able to make money, rather then Apple's business model of producing high quality, high profit margin products that may end up making more money with the tradeoff of lower sales numbers and lower market share!

Apple's business model has always been focused on working to build brand loyalty over time, so by focusing on building higher margin, higher quality computers, they're willing to invest a lot more in building their Q&A and Support Infrastructure to a more ideal level for the average non-techie consumer as they tend to think (rightfully so in my case and in the case of everyone I know that has been using them for years ;) that doing it that way encourages people to buy from them again!

Hence, I think the reason they've never wanted to build low end machines is less about money, fashion, etc., and more about concern that it might unnecessarily dilute the quality of their brand which is much more vital to them in order to be successful using the business model they've chosen to pursue than pricing and/or market share is!

counterpoint

[Hazel Bergeron]

1. Wozniak is a damn smart guy and knows what Jobs is about;

2. Wozniak also knew this when he worked for Jobs;

3. Wozniak continued and continues knowing this as his Apple wages/shares provide him a tidy sum.

It's easy to play the respected but impotent preacher. Especially useful when you are gain from what you preach against. Sorta like reading one of the tabloids go on a rant about exploitation of young girls and foreigners while the owner of the newspaper group publishes porn and employs lots of low wage immigrants.

It's great to control one side of the argument. It's better to control both.

Re:counterpoint

[macs4all]

3. Wozniak continued and continues knowing this as his Apple wages/shares provide him a tidy sum.

I agree with your first two statements; but the one about the money is absurd.

Even when he worked full-time at Apple, he INSISTED that his salary be no more than one of their typical engineers.

His millions has come primarily from Apple stock, and some shrewd investments he has done over the years.

Too bad he didn't get that Gulfstream deal like Jobs, though; he would've gone for that one!

Apple is a marketing company

[Trip6]

Woz is a technical guy and is no longer needed there. Jobs only ever cared about the user experience and that's why Apple dominates.

Re:Apple is a marketing company

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey, newsflash: _every_ company is a marketing company.

Re:Apple is a marketing company

[DadLeopard]

I have to agree with everyone that thinks the Woz wouldn't be a good fit for the current "Apple Way", since the man that was so devoted to the "User Experience" turned into the "Big Brother" that he railed against at the start, and now has his Users doing the "Lock Step" in chains!

Re:Apple is a marketing company

[FudRucker1]

If they were a bit more open, they would have much more customers. It was proved many times

Re:Apple is a marketing company

[Registered Coward v2]

I have to agree with everyone that thinks the Woz wouldn't be a good fit for the current "Apple Way", since the man that was so devoted to the "User Experience" turned into the "Big Brother" that he railed against at the start, and now has his Users doing the "Lock Step" in chains!

Springtime for Apple and iOS

MacOS is happy and gay!

We're marching to one user interface

Look out, the iPhone is taking its place!

Springtime for Apple and iOS

The Valley's is our place once more!

Springtime for Apple and iOS

Watch out, Seattle

We're going for more!

Re:Apple is a marketing company

[Jarik_Tentsu]

Where the fuck are you living?

Niche market? In the last 10 years Apple have seen their share price rise ~3200%, in the last quarter they were the 3rd biggest company in the world by market capitalization according to the FORBES 500 beaten only by ExxonMobil and PetroChina.

They brought science fiction style gadgets people dreamed of in the 90s to become the 'norm' to the point where you're almost expected to have an iPhone and an iPod. People are surprised when you don't have one. Apple entered a market that *was* niche to nerds and a few executives and made it 'cool' and mainstream, to the point where everyone got into it.

Re:Apple is a marketing company

[Raenex]

the man that was so devoted to the "User Experience" turned into the "Big Brother" that he railed against at the start, and now has his Users doing the "Lock Step" in chains!

Yes, but they're golden chains. Take the blue pill. You'll feel better.

Re:Apple is a marketing company

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't click the link! Goatse wannabe.

Re:Apple is a marketing company

[macs4all]

Woz is a technical guy and is no longer needed there.

Your statement makes it sound like all he can do is design circuitry and code.

Although he is a brilliant designer/developer, his return would also breathe new life into the company's other engineers, and would, quite frankly, make the stock market a little less jittery about "what will happen to Apple" in Jobs' absence.

I think he should return in his prior role as "Apple Fellow", and do what he does best at this point: Spread good will, and provide a "You can't fire me!" foil to some of Jobs' more "form over function" product design decisions. For example, there is NO WAY the iOS devices would have escaped from the R&D lab without an SD slot and mini USB connector, and without stereo Bluetooth headset support. I'm speculating about the USB and SD slot stuff; but Woz has even personally bitched about the BT lack-of-stereo support thing to me a couple of years ago in an email.

I have only about 6 months' less experience with Apple products than the Steves do, and I'm quite sure that Apple would benefit greatly from his engineering expertise, creative insight, and especially his attitude and ambassadorship.

Re:Apple is a marketing company

[macs4all]

apple dominated, threw it away, disappeared for 30 years, and now makes consumer gadgets for over-privileged ypuuies, and while they might dominate that niche market, apple has been nothing but a smoke n mirrors producer who really should have died back in the 90's with every other walled garden propitiatory tech company

So, the Mac Pro is a "consumer gadget"?

Re:Apple is a marketing company

[macs4all]

I have to agree with everyone that thinks the Woz wouldn't be a good fit for the current "Apple Way", since the man that was so devoted to the "User Experience" turned into the "Big Brother" that he railed against at the start, and now has his Users doing the "Lock Step" in chains!

As I said in a previous post, above: He would actually be an effective "cut the bullshit, Steve!" foil against Jobs' more "closed"-architecture tendencies.

Re:Apple is a marketing company

[Kjella]

That is why Apple dominates now, but it's not why it dominated then. I remember watching a documentary about the early Apples and Woz was a genius at reducing hardware cost to bring them down to budgets people could afford. He took what would normally cost thousands and cut chips and optimized software to make it cost hundreds. He was by far more essential to Apple then than Jobs' ideas of the user experience.

Today, that's simply not one of Apple's strengths - it probably hasn't been one since sometime in the 80s. There's plenty companies that can match Apple on producing an equivalent hardware platform. In fact, many have been technologically superior to Apple, they just haven't been nice to use. It's not the CPU or GPU or touchscreen or whatever that makes the iPhone/iPad a success and the Macs have gone native with the same Intel processors as most PCs. There's nothing on the technical side that will make or break Apple. I'm sure Woz could do a good job there at something, but he'd never be a very important man.

Re:Apple is a marketing company

[Osgeld]

so your convinced that since a marketing team threw pro at the end of a name that it is not?

Re:Apple is a marketing company

[Osgeld]

where I live there is only 1 person I know that has a ipod, he says eh its ok but I wouldnt buy another

maybe that is because I live in reality

Re:Apple is a marketing company

[Trip6]

Woz has even personally bitched about the BT lack-of-stereo support thing to me a couple of years ago in an email.

Woz bitched to you over email about the lack of a specific feature? Brush with greatness!!!!!!

Re:Apple is a marketing company

[macs4all]

so your convinced that since a marketing team threw pro at the end of a name that it is not?

Are you really going to sit there and call THIS a "consumer gadget"?

You're retarded. Hand in your geek card and delete your slashdot account immediately.

Re:Apple is a marketing company

[macs4all]

Woz has even personally bitched about the BT lack-of-stereo support thing to me a couple of years ago in an email.

Woz bitched to you over email about the lack of a specific feature? Brush with greatness!!!!!!

Woz is VERY accessible. I have known him personally since 1978. We don't hang out or anything (I live in Indiana); but I often have email volleys with him. He is as guile-less as Jobs is a Jerk.

Re:Apple is a marketing company

[Osgeld]

its a mass produced product from a consumer company using off the shelf parts with a consumer friendly OS that any yutz can get from a local dealership

also just cause your easily impressed does not make me instantly retarded

Re:Apple is a marketing company

[Anonymous Coward]

Jobs only ever cared about the user experience and that's why Apple dominates.

100% of fanboi bigots adds up to a market share of 7.2% as Eilleen Regina sang That don't impress me much

Re:Apple is a marketing company

[macs4all]

Jobs only ever cared about the user experience and that's why Apple dominates.

100% of fanboi bigots adds up to a market share of 7.2% as Eilleen Regina sang That don't impress me much

Come back when you have a 10th of his talents, Troll.

Re:Apple is a marketing company

[19061969]

That avoided the question. Is it a consumer gadget?

Re:Apple is a marketing company

[19061969]

Yeah, lucky old Woz!

Re:Apple is a marketing company

[macs4all]

Jobs only ever cared about the user experience and that's why Apple dominates.

100% of fanboi bigots adds up to a market share of 7.2% as Eilleen Regina sang That don't impress me much

...And I hasten to add that 100% of the Linux fanboi bigots (which I assume you are) add up to a market share around 1%. So, what is your point, again?

Re:Apple is a marketing company

[Osgeld]

I think that awnsered the question

is is produced by a consumer gadget company?
is it produced in mass for mass consumption?
does it use off the shelf consumer products?

YES, you can buy a mustang off the lot, it may be powerful, and it may contain racing technology, no your not going to show up at daytona and race with it

quit being thick, unless apple is custom making per specific applications for users its a consumer product

Re:Apple is a marketing company

[shilly]

what the *fuck* are you talking about? you've just defined virtually every business laptop sold as a "consumer gadget", given that they're almost all made by consumer gadget companies, produced en masse and use off the shelf consumer products. you've disappeared so far up your own bottom that you're nosing around your own stomach.

Re:Apple is a marketing company

[White Flame]

Actually, something similar is happening with the pricing of the iPad. They locked in prices and large item quantities before the prices started going up, and now everybody wanting to compete simply can't source components for as cheaply as Apple did.

Re:Apple is a marketing company

[19061969]

No, it did not. The question was NOT whether Apple is a consumer company - it clearly is, of that there is little question. The question is whether the MacPro is a consumer gadget. Quit being thick and answer the question. It's a simple answer and you can stuff your poor car analogies up your arse. It's quite simple: Is the MacPro a consumer gadget? Yes or no. For my opinion, I think it is not. What's yours (just to remind you, the question was about the MacPro, not Apple or Steve Jobs, or the iPhone / iPad / iPod etc. The MacPro alone.

Re:Apple is a marketing company

[Osgeld]

fucking yes retard

Re:Apple is a marketing company

[Osgeld]

yea and do people violently lash out when someone states that about other companies?

point made fuckwit

Re:Apple is a marketing company

[Anonymous Coward]

lol

fess up, you know five people, they're all 6 years old and you're going to get arrested for noncing tomorrow morning

nonce

Re:Apple is a marketing company

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

Hope you're not equating marketing to user experience.

Re:Apple is a marketing company

[Trip6]

Hope you're not equating marketing to user experience.

Good point - it's broader than that. My meaning is to put the technology secondary to the go-to-market strategy, which includes making products people like to use, the ability to control large segments of a particular, bounded market space, and then to extract premium pricing because you offer products that people will pay extra for. The VC name for this is "market power."

Inevitably this results in arguments with engineers, who simply cannot see the merit in the relative prettiness and intuitiveness of a UI, all those damn user experience studies, and why you need an advertising campaign when people will beat a path to your door. Just make a good CLI and be done with it.

The most successful companies win these arguments, because the market and customers pay the way, not the engineers. As far as I can tell Jobs never lost such an argument.

Re:Apple is a marketing company

[Anonymous Coward]

I haf duble hiz talends.

Re:Apple is a marketing company

[shilly]

no, point not made.

point being: no-one, with the exception of you, thinks of a business laptop as "a consumer gadget". They think of it as a business laptop. Because -- ta-dah -- that's what it is.

how is it helpful to define a business laptop as a consumer gadget? what purpose does this serve to twist language in this way? and who gave you the right to define the Three Characteristics of Consumer Gadgets as being "produced by a consumer gadget company" (tautological, but never mind), "produced in mass for mass consumption" (sic, dipshit, that's supposed to be en masse, but again, never mind), and "use of off-the-shelf consumer products"? What's your rationale for each of those three characteristics? Doesn't the second one, in particular, mean that any successful product is automatically (in your view) a consumer gadget?

let's face it, you used a rhetorical flourish to denigrate a Mac Pro and have then started pretending that this wasn't your original intention, and that actually you think there's nothing wrong with consumer gadgets, some of your best friends are consumer gadgets, etc etc. Epic fail.

Re:Apple is a marketing company

[Anonymous Coward]

I can think of a lot of really good, legitimate reasons not to include SD or any other kind of expandable memory.
Apple devices use flash chips soldered on to the motherboard. The storage media is a fast, known good, reliable and predictable storage media.

1.Reliability
SD is crap- Or rather, most SD cards are crap. There are simply no guarantees that your SD card will work in a predictable, reliable manner. Sure, there is an SD association that sets standards- But anyone who's worked seriously with cameras knows that getting good flash media is a crap shoot - An expensive crap shoot at that.
Limited insertion count of SD card sockets, which only goes down as the size of the SD size goes down

2. Complexity
Dealing with unknown brand X 3rd bin flash chips via a cheap Taiwanese sd card flash controller, via and sd host interface, via the system bus in your device.- You have to code and test for crap being attached to your system.
Separated memory spaces - The devices must treat your SD card as separate memory space since it is not known good, reliable, present, or consistent. Separate storage spaces does not design well in to the unified presentation that apple devices are highly prized for.

3. Dust - Not kidding. Every extra hole you add to the product, let along the gaping chasms that is an SD slot is to the thin unified bodies of apple devices, adds exponential complexity to the design when you don't want to get dust in to your sealed device. Not to mention that some people will be jamming things in and out of this hole all day long.

4. Speed
99 times out of 100 direct access to uniform, known good, always in spec flash memory from an embedded flash controller in your host CPU is going to be faster than accessing SD flash memory over several intermediary buses, some of which you have no control over.

This is just short summary. I could go on for pages. Point is, there are good reasons why SD cards are completely inappropriate and undesirable once you consider the design goals of apple devices. When you ask for an SD card slot, what you're saying is you want some thing else. Please, buy something else.

Of course there is always the marketing/money angle. Apple uses storage size as the primary separation in their product grades. This isn't all that bad considering the most obvious alternative would be to artificially cripple features in software between products. Which is lame.

Re:Apple is a marketing company

[Osgeld]

what defines a business laptop? a consumer laptop with a marketing buzzword, maybe power point pre installed

no matter how stupid you may be its still a consumer product with a marketing twist. God, the salesmen must love you, they can sell you a "professional business laptop" for twice the price as the exact same fucking thing with home slapped on the end, and you will lap it up like the uninformed dumbass you are

Re:Apple is a marketing company

[shilly]

oh look, you're focused on the question that suits you best, rather than addressing the main point: that you used a rhetorical flourish to denigrate a Mac Pro and have then started pretending that this wasn't your original intention, and that actually you think there's nothing wrong with consumer gadgets, some of your best friends are consumer gadgets, etc etc. Epic fail.

the main thing that distinguishes a business laptop from a consumer laptop is the aftermarket service and the volume discount. You were the one that was insisting that there had to be some important differentiation based on parts, not me. I was pointing out that this is a fuckwitted way of defining a product.

Bring back Jean-Louis Gassee!

[Vinegar Joe]

He's a lot cooler than Woz.

Re:Bring back Jean-Louis Gassee!

[macs4all]

He's a lot cooler than Woz.

Yeah; but he blew it when he went postal about BeOS.

Re:Bring back Jean-Louis Gassee!

[Shadowmist]

He's a lot cooler than Woz.

If he hadn't asked for such an unreasonable amount for his BeOS, he would have been back instead of Jobs. But then again considering how things turned out, it probably turned out for the best.

Re:Bring back Jean-Louis Gassee!

[Anonymous Coward]

He still posts as mondaynote.com and BeOS lives on (with many improvements) at haiku-os.org .

Why...

[Anonymous Coward]

...would they want the guy that actually did something, instead of the "idea guy"? Come on!

woz, torvalds, stallman, native americans panel

[Anonymous Coward]

to help (along with other previously unchosen citizen taxpayers, mommys etc..) review why we're in such fatal disarray & seemingly on some never ending, constantly needing to be unproven 'mission', to improve other countries' political systems/prosperities, whilst protecting us from invisible 'enemies', who the endless 'hunt' for, has resulted in 10's of 1000's of unproven deaths of completely innocent formerly provable people, & a population who is scared of... their maniacal uncle sam? inbreeding? religon? the math sucks. what?

thanks for you guys getting invited to help with all this (think this is whack, wait'll the hymen hearings begin?), & all the other completely unselfish stuff you are continually doing.

Slashdot only allows anonymous users to post 10 times per day (more or less, depending on moderation). A user from your IP has already shared his or her thoughts with us that many times. which is 500

Uhh...

[JMJimmy]

Honestly, who cares! Apple has horrid business practices and poor quality products for the price. Who cares who eventually runs them into the ground?

Re:Uhh...

[Anonymous Coward]

ROFL. Nearly every Apple product in the last 5 years (excluding the 2009 stick-of-gum iPod shuffle) was considered top of class in their respective categories. No one can make a tablet as cheap, the iPod dominates entirely because it's better, and not even super-cheap Dell could match the iMac screen/CPU combo for the same price AT ALL. They weren't even close in price.

Anyone who hates Apple out of principle are morons (insert any company name there really). If you don't like the product because it doesn't meet your needs, fine. But don't sling useless FUD because your antivirus is begging for a badly needed renewal.

Re:Uhh...

[hedwards]

I'm hoping for Darl McBride, I think that should be good for a few LULZ as all the Apple fanbois stroke off.

Re:Uhh...

[Anonymous Coward]

ROFL. Nearly every Apple product in the last 5 years (excluding the 2009 stick-of-gum iPod shuffle) was considered top of class in their respective categories. No one can make a tablet as cheap, the iPod dominates entirely because it's better, and not even super-cheap Dell could match the iMac screen/CPU combo for the same price AT ALL. They weren't even close in price.

Anyone who hates Apple out of principle are morons (insert any company name there really). If you don't like the product because it doesn't meet your needs, fine. But don't sling useless FUD because your antivirus is begging for a badly needed renewal.

I would guess that Apple is taking a major hit on the price to keep it artificially low. They want to be the Microsoft of tablets. They probably make it up in price on the walled garden. Has anyone seen a price list for all of the components in the device. I'll bet that it isn't public knowledge. Keep drinking your Kool-Aid.

Re:Uhh...

[JMJimmy]

What does "top of their class" mean? As a consumer I've found Apple products to have serious design and manufacturing issues on the hardware end and a dearth of options on the software end. Examples: - Cinema HD screens (especially the 30" model) have hot pixel issues - Mac Book Pros have serious heat issues, to the point of causing burns - Exploding batteries in their handheld devices - Software upgrade path breaks compatibility for most software (try sticking with 2.2.3 firmware on an ipod touch) - Intentional incompatibility with anything but Apple software - Design issues with the structural stability of Mac Books (standard and pro) allow for casual pressure on the left side of the mouse pad to cause damage to the hard drive - Slot loading drives can become misaligned with the case causing stuck discs with little recourse other than taking the computer then the drive apart. - Signal issues in on the iPhone The list goes on and on. These are just issues I've had personal experience with. In 19 years of building/owning PCs/non-Apple products I've had 1 motherboard fail (mechanical failure, the mechanism holding the heatsink on the northbridge chip came loose) and 1 CRT monitor fail (after 5+ years of use the green colour gave out). Obviously this is anecdotal but take a trip around the Apple support forums and you'll find a crazy number of unresolved hardware issues and unworkable software problems.

Re:Uhh...

[JMJimmy]

Please excuse the lack of spacing in my comment, Slashdot has been removing them... and I think I just figured out why... HTML formatting vs plain text formatting.

Ahh well.

Re:Uhh...

[swalve]

LOW??! Are you kidding me? The top models sell for $829. They add on $130 if you want a 3g radio built in. They are selling a cell phone with no phone but a bigger screen, for nearly $1000. They are geniuses, but they are NOT taking a loss.

no a better car analogy is with the radio

[Joe The Dragon]

no a better car analogy is with the radio and they say be changing the radio the engine warranty is void or they can say you went to jiffy lube and not the dealer for a oil change.

Re:no a better car analogy is with the radio

[UnknowingFool]

Most car companies consider an oil change maintenance and not a modification. And replacing the radio yourself does void the warranty on the radio. Unless the OP has specific instances of how hardware or software changes should not void the warranty, generally significant modifications do void warranties. Replacing the OS with another should delay any repair until the original OS is restored.

Re:no a better car analogy is with the radio

[Hognoxious]

And replacing the radio yourself does void the warranty on the radio.

That would be perfectly reasonable. However it shouldn't void the warranty on the car.

Unless the OP has specific instances of how hardware or software changes should not void the warranty, generally significant modifications do void warranties.

Wrong. It's the other way round. You, or whoever you're shilling for, has to provide a justification why it should. Software can't modify hardware[1], so if the hardware breaks then logically it cannot be the software's fault.

Replacing the OS with another should delay any repair until the original OS is restored.

True, but that's so obvious I don't understand why you think it needs stating.

And "until the original OS is restored" != "forever".

[1] Yes, I have heard of "killer pokes". For that to happen the hardware is defective by design anyway.

Re:no a better car analogy is with the radio

[ColdWetDog]

Software can't modify hardware[1],

Sure it can - software lets motor run beyond rated speed. Motor heats up and 'modifies' the bearings.

so if the hardware breaks then logically it cannot be the software's fault.

See above. Do you really think that software cannot interact with 'hardware' to make permanent, physical changes? If so, you need to get outside more.

Re:no a better car analogy is with the radio

[UnknowingFool]

Wrong. It's the other way round. You, or whoever you're shilling for, has to provide a justification why it should. Software can't modify hardware[1], so if the hardware breaks then logically it cannot be the software's fault

Really you can't program a CPU to run continuously at 100% so that it overheats? You can't program the OS to continuously write bits on a SSD or flash memory so that it exceeds the lifetime writes? Software can cause hardware failure. I don't think it has ever been a dispute that if you significantly modify a product, it voids the warranty. What is in dispute is what constitute "significant". I would think that replacing the standard OS with your own is significant.

The other thing that most geeks don't understand is that manufacturers only design and test their products to work in certain ways. They do not test and design for every scenario. Almost every electronic product specifies the operating temperature as most products do not work in extreme heat or cold. Someone making a change to product may push it beyond the operating scenarios and while it may not cause absolute failure, the manufacturer can't guarantee that it will perform as it was designed. In some cases, the manufacturer simply does not know the ramifications of a change because they never tested it.

[1] Yes, I have heard of "killer pokes" [wikipedia.org]. For that to happen the hardware is defective by design anyway.

All hardware has a breaking point. Most hardware generally lasts longer than they are needed however you can easily hasten their death by operating outside normal design parameters. Such death is not a defect of the design.

Re:no a better car analogy is with the radio

[dgatwood]

Really you can't program a CPU to run continuously at 100% so that it overheats?

Not if the CPU was designed correctly, no. A proper CPU has temperature sensors in it, and halts itself (outside of software control) if the temperature exceeds safety limits. I'm not aware of any CPU cores (except for certain specialty parts designed for automotive use) that don't have such hardware. It's considered a very basic part of proper hardware design.

Re:no a better car analogy is with the radio

[UnknowingFool]

I repeat:

All hardware has a breaking point. Most hardware generally lasts longer than they are needed however you can easily hasten their death by operating outside normal design parameters. Such death is not a defect of the design.

Running the CPU continuously is outside normal parameters. Software changes can cause failure or significantly affect performance or lifetime or both. Should a manufacturer be forced to honor the warranty even if you've freely admitted to modifying the software or hardware in ways that they did not intend?

Re:no a better car analogy is with the radio

[dgatwood]

Because of the safety hardware I mentioned, if you're overclocking a CPU hard enough to cause permanent damage, you're going to experience pretty much continuous stalls and freezes every couple of minutes to such an extent that you probably won't even get the device to fully boot before it halts its own CPU. Unless you are a complete and total moron, you're going to realize very quickly that you've hosed things, and you're going to switch back to a more functional kernel that does proper power management.

If that brief period of time is enough to damage the CPU, then any number of other failures from a minor kernel bug to leaving it in the car on a sunny day would also damage the CPU, meaning that your modifications are not really the cause of the premature failure.

And if you're only pushing the CPU a little bit beyond its design spec, it is very unlikely that you'll cause it to fail within any typical extended warranty period.

Either way, your point is mostly moot. When it comes to embedded devices, nobody in their right minds is going to go writing or installing custom kernels with custom power management stacks unless they absolutely have to. The number of people who would do such things are countable on one hand. I'm guessing that 99.999999999% of all mods to embedded devices are pure user space mods—adding extra software, for example. Maybe speeding up laptop fans in some cases, but....

Re:no a better car analogy is with the radio

[UnknowingFool]

The point is still you can get software to mess up hardware and there are a lot of idiots out there that will ignore warning signs. There are reasons why lawnmowers have warnings that you shouldn't lift them up while operating them. And the manufacturers probably get sued every year by someone who ignores them.

Either way, your point is mostly moot. When it comes to embedded devices, nobody in their right minds is going to go writing or installing custom kernels with custom power management stacks unless they absolutely have to. The number of people who would do such things are countable on one hand. I'm guessing that 99.999999999% of all mods to embedded devices are pure user space mods—adding extra software, for example. Maybe speeding up laptop fans in some cases, but....

However your premise is that someone knowingly hacks the power. What if they didn't realize that the changes they are making does damage? The interaction of hardware and software is complex. No manufacturer can know every scenario that occurs.

Re:no a better car analogy is with the radio

[dgatwood]

However your premise is that someone knowingly hacks the power. What if they didn't realize that the changes they are making does damage? The interaction of hardware and software is complex. No manufacturer can know every scenario that occurs.

You might as well be asking what happens if the sky is green. Anybody pushing the CPU hard enough to cause damage is going to get constant kernel panics and won't continue trying to use that OS.

Anybody not pushing the CPU hard enough to have nearly continuous crashes is also almost certainly not pushing it hard enough to damage things unless the chip designer made a serious mistake.

the mini is weak and under powered with on board

[Joe The Dragon]

the mini is weak and under powered with on board video that uses it's low base 2gb ram.

And if apples goes to the i3 cpu on board video it will be slower then todays mini. DID YOU READ what I posted?

Woz Jobs

[Anonymous Coward]

What a non-story. Woz is an old engineer who never held a position anywhere close to what Jobs has held and exceeded at. While I don't like the policies of Apple they are successful in their own way due to Steve Jobs. Woz was just the right guy, in the right place, at the right time with the right partner... Steve Jobs.

I think Woz has no agenda here. He's a simple guy who pretty much says what he thinks. Heck, he has FU $$$ and can do it.

Thunderbolt can not replace video cards / cpu / ra

[Joe The Dragon]

Thunderbolt can not replace video cards / cpu / ram and it's bandwidth it like only pci-e x4.

So a mini with a weak cpu with low end on board video will make for a poor system and only 2gb base ram is to small at least 4gb is needed.

Thunder is good for EXT video IN, EXT HDD's and other stuff.

well apple can $100-$500 from there system price a

[Joe The Dragon]

well apple can $100-$500 from there system price and still have nice systems.
The mac pro should be $1500-$2000.

But would he bring back the Apple 2?

[mark-t]

Granted... it would have to be seriously updated to be a viable computing platform in today's market... to the point that it would effectively be an entirely new machine... but I dunno... there's something about the idea of Woz going back to Apple that makes me wax nostalgic... there was a time back when Wozniak was last working with Apple where they were saying "Apple 2 forever". I can't help but think it'd be kinda neat to see that name come back.

How bad was his accident?

[Anonymous Coward]

I know Woz had an aircraft accident that resulted in brain damage. I have only ever found interviews and videos of him AFTER that accident. Does anyone know what he was like BEFORE the accident and how big a change in personality/problem solving he experienced?

Re:How bad was his accident?

[macs4all]

I know Woz had an aircraft accident that resulted in brain damage. I have only ever found interviews and videos of him AFTER that accident. Does anyone know what he was like BEFORE the accident and how big a change in personality/problem solving he experienced?

Yes. I have known him since 1978.

It took him nearly two years after the plane accident to "snap out of if". in fact, a friend of mine that talked with him at a computer convention in Ohio about 3 or 4 years after the accident told me that Woz told a group of people at that convention that he was back to work at Apple, going through the motions every day, when suddenly, he looked down at his Hamilton Pulsar watch and realized that he had been in a fog for the past two years.

According to his comments, after that, he was "back to his old self".

I have had many, many email and phone conversations over the years with Woz, and he is just as sharp now as he was before the accident. Which, BTW, is pretty damned sharp!

Re:well apple can $100-$500 from there system pric

[Registered Coward v2]

well apple can $100-$500 from there system price and still have nice systems. The mac pro should be $1500-$2000.

Why? They clearly sell well at the current prices, and if you assume all the price cuts came from margin Apple would need to increase sells dramatically (2x, 3x, 5x?) just to make the same profit at the reduced margin.

Goatse URL

[Anonymous Coward]

Haven't seen that guy in a while

perfuming?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Clone makers could take advantage of the economies of scale to introduce less expensive, and possibly higher perfuming, machines."

Perfuming? Are you trying to imply something?

Google!

[Randwulf]

I'd rather see him get hired by Google, given some resources, staff, and autonomy, and see what he makes of it.

Re:Google!

[Anonymous Coward]

Why? He can't code modern languages, engineering hardware is well beyond what he was doing with 8 bit CPUs and address decoders. That's not to say he can't get up to speed with bread and butter for 20 year olds. Not everything he did was golden, he did a rubbish remote controller, and was internally considered passed it when the Mac came alone.

Woz would be best in an advisory role for a hardware company (ie, which apple isn't these days). He illegally rooted his iphone before DMCA provisions were added for cell phones, so he's already considered untrustworthy. He has a considerable stake in Apple, so you have a conflict of interests. He's basically unemployable, not that he needs money.

Actually, I'd love to see the man on TV, like Tech TV done without the fake calls and astroturfing, and not just advertising consumer electronics toys like TWiT.

Re:Thunderbolt can not replace video cards / cpu /

[macs4all]

Thunderbolt can not replace video cards / cpu / ram and it's bandwidth it like only pci-e x4.

So a mini with a weak cpu with low end on board video will make for a poor system and only 2gb base ram is to small at least 4gb is needed.

Thunder is good for EXT video IN, EXT HDD's and other stuff.

Stop thinking about the first-gen (CopperBolt, if you will) limitations.

While I agree that TB is not quite there yet for external video cards, there are a LOT of applications that could benefit from the technology right now, that would alleviate SOME of the need for a Mac Pro-class tower for SOME users. Actually, a LOT of users.

Odd man out

[Anonymous Coward]

You have some odd friends, you're probably not mainstream yourself. iPhones are everywhere now.

The majority of people I see, private and business, now have either an iPhone or some Android device. Most people I meet now have iPhones (Scandinavia).

The iPod, iPhone and iPad prove you wrong in terms of Apple's worth and technology. What a foolish man you are, blinded by some outdated theory and hatred of a company.

Someone please mod this guy down

[Reverberant]

Don't click his link.

If Woz went back to Apple.

[Chas]

[

Steve Wozniak told Reuters he would consider returning to an active role at Apple, the company he co-founded

I'm sure he would. And I'm sure he'd have a positive effect on them too if he could.

and believes the consumer electronics giant could afford to be more open than it is.

And this is why he never will.

FROM WOZ, WITH PERMISSION TO REPOST

[macs4all]

First, some background from me (macs4all) :

I just emailed Woz with an email I entitled "Storm a-brewin' over at Slashdot."

His instantaneous reply follows. When I asked him if I could Re-post it here, his reply was "PLEASE do that for me!"

So, here it is, straight from the Woz's Mouth, so to speak:

When I first saw the headlines it was just another totally wrong one. I did an interview in Brighton the other day with this female Reuters journalist. The entire interview was about Fusion-io, at the SQLbits European conference, with myself and David Flynn, our CEO. At the end she asked about whether I'd return to Apple and I thought and said "no" and told her some reasons it was impossible. So she sits there and asks "with all the exciting things going on at Apple, would you consider going back?"...I said "yes" but explained that it could not happen. What you read is based on the one "yes". So I didn't read a single article about it. I was on planes and am writing a speech now for a humanist award I'm receiving tonight in Boston and don't have time to get into this one. Too bad.

This reporter took notes by hand but I think the Fusion-io publicist Shannon might have recorded it.

Re:FROM WOZ, WITH PERMISSION TO REPOST

[Anonymous Coward]

it could not happen

Not as long as Steve Jobs draws a breath.

Soon enough that condition will change.

(What does The Woz bring to the table - more openness. But given how consumers seem to want to be abused by large companies, the path for Apple profitability may very well be continued abuse and The Woz doesn't have the same history of jack@$$ery as Jobs has.)

Re:FROM WOZ, WITH PERMISSION TO REPOST

[Anonymous Coward]

My girlfriend works at the Outback restaurant in Cupertino next to 1 Infinite Loop drive, and about three weeks ago Jobs and Woz had dinner after work together, and chatted for about an hour. They must be up to something!

and she says they are great tippers. :)

Re:Thunderbolt can not replace video cards / cpu /

[beelsebob]

Give that apple is sticking dual channel TB on their boxes, you're talking about 8x PCIe 2.0, which is plenty, even for the highest end modern GPUs (go check benchmarks – you see about a 0.5% drop in performance by going from 16x to 8x with a modern GPU). The bigger issue is latency on the long copper cable – but I'm dead certain we'll see external GPU solutions for macs.

Link is goatse

[WrongSizeGlass]

Link is goatse!

Woz has nothing to offer Apple 2011

[SpinyNorman]

Back in the day Woz's crucial role in creating Apple was as a creative and accomplished electronics designer. Creating things like the Apple ][ color display or floppy controller with minimal chip counts, and thereby making the product more functional/compitetive than most of the competition.

However, the market niche that Apple has nowadays carved for itself isn't based on low cost or unique functionality (even if a wizard designer could nowadays make much difference), but rather based on design and user experience - coming from Job's design sensibility, obsessive attention to detail, and desire to sell "appliances", It's very much Jobs company, and presumably will flounder when he's no longer there.

What does Woz have to offer Apple nowadays? I'm sure there are other Apple executives that understand Apple's market niche way better than Woz does, and he's certainly no Jobs replacement as a marketeer - there doesn't appear to be a drop of slickness or aesthetic sensibility in his blood.

Re:Woz has nothing to offer Apple 2011

[macs4all]

What does Woz have to offer Apple nowadays? I'm sure there are other Apple executives that understand Apple's market niche way better than Woz does, and he's certainly no Jobs replacement as a marketeer - there doesn't appear to be a drop of slickness or aesthetic sensibility in his blood.

While I agree that Woz doesn't look as good in a black turtleneck as does Jobs, I personally feel that he has a LOT to offer the company.

See my previous comment in this thread to see why.

The link is to a goatse wannabe!

[WrongSizeGlass]

The link is to a goatse wannabe!

Nothing but Good can come of this.

[Lord Kano]

Woz was the Yin to Jobs' Yang. Woz made the tech and Jobs made the deals.

Bringing back Woz would do alot to dispel the cloud of douchery that's been hanging over Apple for the past decade.

LK

The real question is... would they want him back?

[Shadowmist]

Wozniak is a master of technology and probably computer education. But he's no replacement for the single-minded obsession to detail that is Steve Jobs. However he would be a much nicer person to work for, and maybe he could be the unifing force behind the various heirs that Jobs would leave behind. Only caveat though.... he's no spring chicken himself.

ok but what about weak cpu power or the unused x8

[Joe The Dragon]

ok but what about weak cpu power or the unused x8 lanes on the cpu that are better used for a video then makeing the video eat up all the TB bandwidth just for a card and can you even add a video card to the TB bus that is not on board as Intel said you can not use a ADD in TB card in a old system.

Economy of scale?

[SmallFurryCreature]

What economy of scale? Your dim little mind is aware that Apple is currently one of the largest if not the largest PC maker in the world right? They have even beaten Dell once (haven't checked if Dell or HP has taken the lead again).

So what economy of scale? Someone going to sell Mac clones so successfully they outperform the largest makers by such a magnitude they can demand even sharper prices then Apple already can?

Re:Economy of scale?

[Registered Coward v2]

What economy of scale? Your dim little mind is aware that Apple is currently one of the largest if not the largest PC maker in the world right? They have even beaten Dell once (haven't checked if Dell or HP has taken the lead again).

So what economy of scale? Someone going to sell Mac clones so successfully they outperform the largest makers by such a magnitude they can demand even sharper prices then Apple already can?

Actually, in your haste to comeback with a witty put down (I'll grant you managed to be half way there) you failed to consider the PC market is much vaster than Apple alone. That's where the economies of scale come to play. Adding the ability to run OSX as well as Windows merely increases the number of units to amortize the HW development costs and increases the buy quantity.

While Apple is certainly large enough to command good prices, there are plenty of PC OEMS who build enough machines to get good prices as well; and they can spread engineering and developmental costs over a number of units beyond just those for one manufacturer. If Apple were to license their OS they'd have to make it work on generic MBs or provide the tools needed to adapt them to OSX (much as independent hackers did to create the Hackintosh). Imagine if Dell could load OSX on a $500 Insperion - the $900 Macbook looks real expensive; especially since Apple really sells the OS experience. If you can get that on a cheaper clone, even with a lower build quality, it becomes harder to justify buying Apple hardware. Once OSX is running on may cheap laptops and desktops Apple will come under significant pricing pressure (and have fewer units to amortize their costs as clones cut into their sales); as well as support issues as hardware combinations proliferate. Neither is in Apple's best interest; especially since they have managed to maintain premium pricing by avoiding becoming a commodity like PCs.

Re:The real question is... would they want him bac

[macs4all]

Only caveat though.... he's no spring chicken himself.

At 60, he still has at least 20 more years of viability with today's medical technology; and in 20 years, who knows?

And, not to be unkind to SJ; but you will note that, despite Woz's obvious obesity, that he isn't ravaged by Cancer, like some CEOs we know...

What have YOU ever done better is the question

[Anonymous Coward]

Answer it. What have YOU personally EVER DONE that even begins to rival that man's achievements, hmmm, You fucking transparent little blowhard? Have you done better before he did in computing? How about during his heights & even afterward currently?? It's literally amazing how you little armchair quarterbacks online have all this nerve to try to cast dispersions on those in this field or any other even remotely like it, when you & "your kind" haven't even EVER DONE A DAMN THING THAT OTHERS HAVE NOTED AS WELL IN PUBLICATIONS, NEWS, OR OTHER SUCH LIKE AVENUES AS GOOD OR BENEFICIAL. Big talkers the lot of you (not everyone here, just easily seen thru little asswipes like this fool is I replied to.)

Re:What have YOU ever done better is the question

[ColdWetDog]

Answer it. What have YOU personally EVER DONE that even begins to rival that man's achievements, hmmm, You fucking transparent little blowhard? Have you done better before he did in computing? How about during his heights & even afterward currently?? It's literally amazing how you little armchair quarterbacks online have all this nerve to try to cast dispersions on those in this field or any other even remotely like it, when you & "your kind" haven't even EVER DONE A DAMN THING THAT OTHERS HAVE NOTED AS WELL IN PUBLICATIONS, NEWS, OR OTHER SUCH LIKE AVENUES AS GOOD OR BENEFICIAL. Big talkers the lot of you (not everyone here, just easily seen thru little asswipes like this fool is I replied to.)

Steve, Steve - please calm down. The stress isn't good for you. Probably not a good time to be wandering around Slashdot. Maybe you should stick to Macworld or Times.

Re:What have YOU ever done better is the question

[Anonymous Coward]

"cast aspersions" not "cast dispersions"

sheesh, people

Re:What have YOU ever done better is the question

[shaitand]

So you don't think anyone other than a doctor has the right to speak out if someone who isn't a licensed physician is about to take over medical operations at the community medical center?

Sorry but there is no requirement that one be well qualified for a position before they are capable of determining that someone else is not. By that standard, nobody who isn't qualified to be president should be allowed to vote in the presidential election!

Re:What have YOU ever done better is the question

[toQDuj]

Me? Why, thank you for asking. I have written a book and some papers, I maintain a website/weblog for educational purposes and I try to help wherever I can. What I do is not important, but it is important that somebody does it (Gandhi). I am also not so old as Woz yet, though, so maybe I will get to help in more significant ways at some point.

That does not stop me from asking a question about his recent achievements. If I were to hire somebody old and famous, I had better check they are still of use in the new organization other than for PR purposes. Especially since the wages for famous people seem to be orders of magnitude bigger than for non-famous people.

Now go get an axe and cut those long toes of yours. If you get offended by the slightest, perhaps it is best to close your internet connection. People taking offense is one of the prime reasons for war and strife in the world, so cool it!.

Re:What have YOU ever done better is the question

[KlomDark]

Cat Ass Burgers?

Yo Woz, go to Nokia!

[SpzToid]

Stephen Elop should go, Woz in. No more bone-headed decisions at Nokia. Yeah, I can dream.

Not Steve Jobs (just a person)

[Anonymous Coward]

New news, take a read:

Steve, Steve - please calm down. The stress isn't good for you. Probably not a good time to be wandering around Slashdot. Maybe you should stick to Macworld or Times. by ColdWetDog (752185) on Saturday April 09, @04:27PM (#35769612) Homepage

Now, GO FUCK YOURSELF

Woz is an engineeer

[nurb432]

NOT a businessman.

As much as i respect him for who he is and what he has done, if he thinks hes going to come in when Jobs dies and "rescue" the company, hes misguided.

Much as Jobs isn't an engineer, both of them have their place in the world.

Comments reflect change in Slashdot demographics..

[Anonymous Coward]

.. once upon-a-time, Slashdot would largely have been populated by engineers who would have championed Woz as the "true talent" behind Apple. Now it feels like there are more designers around.

(Of course, it doesn't hurt that Jobs has knocked the ball out of the park.)

Slashdot's a little too faggy for my taste these days.
Now get your goatee-bearded ass off my lawn!

why?

[Anonymous Coward]

What possible role could Woz serve in Apple 2011? If they rehire him, it would just be to help out an old "buddy", Somehow I don't see Jobs as the type to really care about old relationships.

OT: Goatse poster is probably the same guy

[Anonymous Coward]

posting as AC for obvious reasons...

The account numbers are way too close, and those UIDs have only one post...

by jordanjay30 on Saturday April 09, @12:03PM (#35767912) Attached to: Wozniak: I Would Consider Returning To Apple

by Trip7 on Saturday April 09, @12:00PM (#35767890) Attached to: Wozniak: I Would Consider Returning To Apple

by FudRucker1 on Saturday April 09, @12:18PM (#35768042) Attached to: Wozniak: I Would Consider Returning To Apple

by nanotux on Saturday April 09, @11:57AM (#35767852) Attached to: Wozniak: I Would Consider Returning To Apple

Now, Is there someone responsible at /. that could...

1- Ban the account(s)
2- Ban the IP(s)
3- Report to his ISP (normally abuse@isp.domain)

If the ISP doesn't take action after multiple complaints (our standard was 3 incidents), just mention to the ISP the /24 *WILL* be blackholed. It should motivate them to permanently terminate the costumer's connection.

I used to work at the Abuse dept for a major ISP and was not very tolerant of that kind of behaviour.

I guess that counts for something

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, he's a member of a Segway Polo team.

And unlike GWB, he didn't fall off a Segway.

Yes please!!

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd definetly feel a bit better about apple products with the knowledge that the woz tries to open the products (and hopefully the source-code )
Go woz !!!
( i'd like an i-arduino with a build in capt'n crunch whisle... :-s , just kiddin any open microprocessor will do)

We need him elsewhere!

[brentc3114]

My hobby is astronomy. We need Woz working for Celestron or Meade. I would get telescopes that are 20" in diameter and cost only a couple hundred bucks. How about space travel as an industry for WOZ? Make it affordable! On the humanitarian note he could work on medical devices. The point is Apple is set company with defined product line-i.e. boring. Use a guy like this for something new not for a company that's over 30 years old.

Re:the mini is weak and under powered with on boar

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

Under powered in what way? It's not designed to be a gaming machine.