Tech That Failed To Fail

itwbennett writes "There are tech fads that flare up quickly and then, pouf, they're gone (Tamagotchi, anyone?). And then there are technologies that industry bigwigs predict will follow that familiar pattern and instead end up withstanding the test of time. The Internet, for example, has famously failed to implode, despite dire predictions by Ethernet inventor Bob Metcalfe. And what about TV, the cornerstone of the American living room? Inventor Lee DeForest, known as one of the 'fathers of the electronic age,' declared TV a commercial and financial impossibility, a sentiment that was shared by 20th Century Fox exec Darryl Zanuck. And FCC engineer T.A.M. Craven was absolutely certain back in 1961 that there was 'no chance communications space satellites will be used to provide better telephone, telegraph, television, or radio service inside the United States.'"

Comments

ATM machines

[elucido]

Despite all the problems, using an ATM machine beats standing in that long ass line trying to cash a check.

Why are banks open only from 10-3, the sort of hours they know everyone is at work? And why is it that at least one bank teller is on break or on lunch?

Re:ATM machines

[Urban Garlic]

I've pretty much always been in favor of ATMs, but that's because I'm relatively anti-social -- I certainly recall the hue and cry about how impersonal and awful it was when they first became common. (Yes, I'm old, get off my lawn, etc.)

I'm still cranky about ATM fees, though -- the other thing I recall from when they were introduced was how much money the banks would save by not having to hire as many tellers, and these savings would more than cover the cost of the machines, so of course there would never be fees, they said. Simple common sense.

Re:ATM machines

[morcego]

Exactly so people will use an ATM machine, which is cheaper for the bank than having someone actually assisting the customer.

Re:ATM machines

[ZamesC]

Bank close at 3PM, because, in the pre-computer days, there was several hours worth of counting & bookkeeping that had to be done between kicking the last customer out & close for the night. Why they STILL close at 3PM, is... well... tradition, I guess.

Re:ATM machines

[maxwell demon]

Despite all the problems, using an ATM machine beats standing in that long ass line trying to cash a check.

Only if it's an automatic ATM machine. :-)

Re:ATM machines

[multisync]

Why are banks open only from 10-3, the sort of hours they know everyone is at work?

Not all banks have hours like that. My bank is open from 8:00 AM - 8:00 PM Mon - Fri and from 8:00 - 4:00 on Saturdays. Some branches are open on Sunday.

Of course, the only time I take advantage of those hours is when I need something out of my safe deposit box. I use the ATM to withdraw cash and online banking for everything else.

Re:ATM machines

[j00r0m4nc3r]

No, you're right. I don't go to the bank to have a lovely little conversation with the teller about the weather and the local sports team. I go to the bank to either 1.) Get Money, or 2.) Leave Money... These two jobs are perfectly suited to a machine, and in theory the machine should cost less to operate and thus lower banking costs... That's the theory anyway. The only problem I have with ATMs is that they seem to attract morons who can't operate them, and end up taking even longer than going to a human teller... Same thing with self-checkout at the supermarket. Outstanding idea -- I can get through those things in about 1/4 the time it would take even in the express lane. However, the problem arises that anybody over 40 can't seem to work them, and if you're behind someone over 60, well, just forget about it...

Re:ATM machines

[Dr_Barnowl]

Here in the UK, there are no fees for using a bank ATM. Most accounts will also permit you to withdraw from the ATMs of other banks, again with no fee. My account (and I don't think it's unusual) will permit you to withdraw money from any bank ATM in the UK with no fee.

The only ATMs that charge fees are those provided by convenience stores and garages (and yes, the fees are extortionate). But I can withdraw from any of them too.

It wasn't always the case that there were no fees, but I believe we started off with no fees for withdrawal from your "home bank". Then enough fuss was made about "foreign" withdrawal that as soon as one bank broke ranks, all the others followed suit.

Are the ATMs in the USA well networked? Can you withdraw from any of them? This would seem to be the first step to getting fees dropped.

Re:ATM machines

[MBGMorden]

Oddness. I though he was just off his rocker with that comment but someone else knows it so it can't be completely off base.

Every bank in my local vicinity closes at 5pm. A lot of them stay open until 6pm on Fridays (presumably also due to historic reasons - prior to direct deposit people were often paid on Friday so the banks stayed open longer for people to come cash/deposit checks on pay-day).

Of course, these days I'm even seeing a few banks start to open on Saturdays. All in all though, irrelevant. I have 2 checking accounts that I use (one is for bills and one is for discretionary spending) - the discretionary one that I use pretty much everyday doesn't even have a physical branch closer than 30 miles to my house. I haven't stepped foot in that building since I opened the account. A specified portion of my check auto-deposits there, and the rest is done via the net and ATM's.

I'm not really even that young (about to turn 30), and the entire concept of physically doing stuff in a bank seems outdated.

Re:ATM machines

[ciderbrew]

I love ATM machines. I see a huge queue for them and I go into the bank. Most people have forgotten you can get money over the counter and the line is often shorter. The best part is, there is usually a lovely girl selected as she is "customer facing" stuff, sat down at the desk. She doesn't have to be fast or good at her job either. Mmmm.

Re:ATM machines

[i kan reed]

The ATM network predates the web here.

With one withdrawl you can be charged:
$1-$5 by your bank for using an external network
+$1-$5 by another bank for using their network
+$2-$5 by an ATM vendor(like at a gas station)

Usually, but not always, 2 and 3 are mutually exclusive. This can result in fees as high as 50% of what you take out for small sums.

Re:ATM machines

[Compaqt]

Yes, sir, I assure you that all our ATM machines are networked with the TCP/IP protocol, so yes, they are automatic.

Re:ATM machines

[Dr_Barnowl]

I prefer human checkout operators - they're faster than robo-checkouts. The majority of the time spent checking out is rotating the goods so the barcode is visible to the laser sensor and selecting the correct item for produce by weight - both of which are something that a human has to do, and which a checkout operator has much more skill at than myself. On top of that, a robo-checkout adds a mandatory pause after each item to check the bag scale to make sure the barcode matches the mass of the item you put in the bag, so even if you DO get as fast as a checkout operator at scanning, you won't be able to operate at full speed.

The only reason to use a robo-checkout I can think of is when you're in a hurry, you only have one item, the other checkouts are saturated, and the robo-checkout lane is empty because they are so crap. Even then, I prefer to use the human lane - a minimum wage checkout worker needs their job more than I need to buy stupid crap faster.

Re:ATM machines

[operagost]

ATM machine? I won't settle for less than an automated ATM machine, into which I enter my PIN number and withdraw my cash money-- usually around $60 dollars.

Re:ATM machines

[x*yy*x]

Well, the good thing about ATM's is that theres lots of them. Going to bank just to get money would be much more work, and I live in a big city. It's even more work for someone not living in a city.

Re:ATM machines

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm in much the same situation, but it's occasionally useful to go to a branch in person. For example, when my debit card number was stolen, I was able to resolve the issue much better in person than I would have over the phone.

Also, cashier's checks are necessary sometimes. Apartment complexes don't like to take personal checks for the first rent payment and all that.

Re:ATM machines

[dogmatixpsych]

Unfortunately, it looks like many people are missing the humor in the redundancy and superfluously of your redundant comment. The thing that bugs me about automatic ATM machines is having to set and remember a personal PIN number.

Re:ATM machines

[Anonymous Coward]

What you really need is an automatic ATM teller machine.

Re:ATM machines

[dogmatixpsych]

Okay, I was exaggerating. Maybe only a few are missing your humor but there sure are a lot of people writing ATM machine.

Re:ATM machines

[DarkOx]

Hmm I am 27 and I WONT USE THE DAMN SELF CHECKOUT anymore.. A human checker can always complete my transaction faster than I can unless they are new trainee or something. Its not that I have problems using the machine, most of the time I tried using them everything was fine and it was easy to understand what to do. A few times there were problems where the weight sensor did not register the item had been place in the bagging area and than you have to stand there like an idiot until the operator can come over which takes all kinds of time.

The main issue is locating the UPC codes. I don't know where they are on the packing so I have to sit there and spin each item around and around in my hands inspecting between one and six sides of it before I can locate it. A human checker becomes familiar with the products the store sells and knows right where to look, and often they don't need to look they can orient the thing correctly over the scanner without sighting the code. I would say for a weeks worth of groceries an experienced human checker can do the job 15% to 20% faster than I can, especially if there is allot of produce to weigh. Its not worth while to do it myself.

Re:ATM machines

[g0bshiTe]

Actually I hate ATM's, I have found I spend less if I actually have to go inside, not to mention I actually like the people that work in my bank, they all know me by name and are even comfortable enough to give me hell when I'm there (jokingly of course). On the other hand there is a branch of the same bank up the street that a requirement to work there is to be an asshole, I absolutely refuse to use that branch.

Re:ATM machines

[farnz]

At a technical level, there still are ATM fees for using a bank ATM in the UK. It's just that our banks have worked out that it's better for business overall if the fees are internal bookkeeping between banks rather than something to pass onto a customer.

Put simply, banks with huge ATM networks like Barclays make a net profit on ATM fees; they receive more than they pay out. Banks with small ATM networks often find it cheaper to pay the fees than to either expand their network or deal with the customer service problem of guiding irate customers to their only ATM in town (partly because mobile phones means that people are more likely to call in and ask for help, mostly because - as you've said - no foreign withdrawal fees is a selling point).

Re:ATM machines

[Sycraft-fu]

In the US all ATMs are networked and indeed this is true across most of the world. I've withdrawn money from Canadian ATMs with a US card just fine. Also no bank I'm aware of charges fees for its own customers to use its own ATMs. You can use them as often as you like for whatever functions they have and the bank is happy about that.

Fees start when you want to use other bank's ATMs. Every bank tends to charge a fee for non-members to use their ATM. On top of that, many banks charge you a fee for using someone else's ATM. So the ATM might charge you $2 to use it, and your bank might also charge you $2 for using an ATM that doesn't belong to them. People get a little miffed by that since it isn't as though it costs them anything.

Now generally it is not a problem for most people. If you are with a large bank, they have plenty of ATMs. Banks like Bank of America, Chase, and so on have ATMs all over the place so finding one is no problem and so long as it is your bank's ATM, you are fine. Also credit union users generally don't have much trouble since most credit unions do not charge fees to other credit unions. So as long as you find an ATM belonging to a credit union, any credit union, you are fine.

The people who have trouble are those who use small banks, but travel. If you use a bank that only has local branches, you may find it impossible to use their ATMs.

Of course there are lots of ways to deal with this. A simple one is to use a debit card for a purchase and get cash back. Merchants are required by their payment processors to offer that option so you can buy something, and get additional cash, and it doesn't cost you anything. It is also less of a problem these days since most people simply do electronic purchasing using credit or debit cards, cash isn't used nearly as much so you don't need to go get it often.

It isn't a big issue, you just hear lots of complaining on Slahsdot and sites like it for two reasons:

1) It is really stupid. Banks shouldn't charge each other fees for this, it doesn't cost them anything.

2) People on Slashdot love to whine, particularly about "evil companies".

Re:ATM machines

[Abstrackt]

The cuties don't have to be fast but they do have to be good at their job. I once had one deposit a check for cash.... Very thoughtful of her to try expediting the process without asking but I'd rather she looked closer and listened better.

Re:ATM machines

[Tim C]

The ATM network predates the web here.

As it does here I believe.

Those fees are insane though; the highest I've seen in the UK is around 1.85 GBP, or about 3 USD. No bank that I'm aware of charges for 1 or 2, leaving only 3.

Re:ATM machines

[Dr_Barnowl]

It likewise predates the web here ; I do remember the age when you had to go to the right bank, but never experienced that myself. But I don't think I remember any time when you were charged for withdrawing from your own bank (my mother would never have stood for that).

In the end it was the planned combination of charges by the card issuer AND the machine operator that was the last straw for any kind of ATM fees in this country. It would seem that the USA has accepted this state of affairs. :-(

Re:ATM machines

[vlm]

No, you're right. I don't go to the bank to have a lovely little conversation with the teller about the weather and the local sports team.

Around here, its never, ever, lovely. Its all about propositioning for sales:

1) Would you like to "upgrade" to a checking account with higher fees and higher required balance and some useless features no one uses?

2) We're selling home equity loans, would you like to eliminate your net worth in exchange for a jet ski?

3) Have you talked to our co-located investment personnel about starting a retirement account?

4) Would you like to buy this overpriced useless piece of lead painted flair handmade by Chinese political prisoners to support America's (insert politically correct flavor of the day)?

I believe they hit me up for insurance, savings bonds, and credit card apps at least once in the past.

Avoiding talking to beautiful young woman bank tellers about the weather by visiting the ATM is NOT anti-social... the anti-social part is their boss making them recite ridiculous sales pitches from a script or else they get fired.

Re:ATM machines

[Attila Dimedici]

In my area there are many banks that are actually open when I am not working. However, I used to say that banks are in the customer service business, that's why they are never open when their customers can come in to get service because it is only recently that there are banks in my area that are open when the vast majority of people are not working.

Re:ATM machines

[Runaway1956]

Everyone who complains about ATM fees needs to remember something. It costs a lot of money to purchase them, along with the Microsoft licenses necessary to run them. Add in the IT fees every time one of those suckers blue screens, add in the extra workload on the tellers while it's bluescreened, man, you can see it's a burden on the banks to run them. So, belly up and fork over a little more of that Microsoft tax, people. This is the good life, after all!

Re:ATM machines

[rodarson2k]

The main issue is locating the UPC codes. I don't know where they are on the packing so I have to sit there and spin each item around and around in my hands inspecting between one and six sides of it before I can locate it.

You don't have to locate the UPC codes! Every self-checkout scanner i've seen is reading from 2 angles simultaneously, meaning that you merely have to rotate the box twice to have checked all 6 sides. Pickup box, put above scanner, rotate twice or until beep, put in bag.

You don't save time over a real checker, but if the line's shorter, you're saving time over waiting in line.

Re:ATM machines

[vlm]

Yes, sir, I assure you that all our ATM machines are networked with the TCP/IP protocol, so yes, they are automatic.

Traditionally around here they were all SNA/SDLC over either analog multipoint or a short lived interval of digital multipoint or frame relay connections. I suppose times change...

Re:ATM machines

[aplusjimages]

The thing I hate about self checkouts is it stops every time it calculates too much weight or not enough weight in the bagging area once its scanned. Without fail the human has to come over and bypass the error message.

Re:ATM machines

[icebrain]

Why are banks open only from 10-3, the sort of hours they know everyone is at work?

Because they can. Banks (and the financial industry as a whole) have all of us by the balls, and more importantly, they know it. Therefore, they can set whatever hours they want, and we all just have to deal with it because we have no alternative.

Re:ATM machines

[anerki]

This is not true in the US? In most countries there's a difference between:

- Credit cards, work on credit. Draw cash, it'll always be (a ridiculously high) fee
- Bank cards, draw directly from your account, possibly with credit, but payed direct. And they usually don't have fees. At least in our little governementless country called Belgium and the rest of Western Europe

Re:ATM machines

[SimonTheSoundMan]

Pretty the norm in the UK. Where I live (Birmingham), they close at midday for "half day closing" on one weekday. Some are even closed on Saturdays and all on are closed on Sundays. National holidays are also called "bank holidays". It gets me also when you walk in at 12:30 to find one cashier and the other 11 cashiers have gone to lunch, a time when everyone [none bankers] is at lunch and need to use the bank.

Re:ATM machines

[Old97]

True, but you can get it all free if you shop around. I use USAA Federal Savings Bank and I don't pay to use anybody's ATM. There are no fees for the account either. I've seen other internet banks offering the same or similar deal. Often a regular direct deposit from a paycheck or social security or whatever is required.

Re:ATM machines

[pspahn]

In certain circumstances, the convenience of the machine is worth every penny you pay. Keep in mind, there are some pretty remote places here in the US, and in those places you can be sure that ATM fees and gas prices are going to be high.

I'm not sure why anyone would regularly use an ATM in a densely populated area, though. It's just as easy to go buy a pack of gum at 7-11 and get cash back if all you need is convenience.

Re:ATM machines

[neokushan]

Didn't Barclay's try to charge for withdrawals a while back?

Re:ATM machines

[mlts]

Maybe they should go back to running OS/2... eComStation still has the OS maintained and on life support.

Re:ATM machines

[Compaqt]

Yeah, the SNA architecture under SLDC control was a good system.

Re:ATM machines

[Runaway1956]

In my area, I know of one branch of one bank that opens at 8:00, a couple that open at 8:30, and all the rest open at 9:00.

Closing time for most of them is 3:00, 3:30, or 4:00. But, a different branch of the same bank that opens at 8:00 stays open til 5:00. I guess it's up the individual manager how early and how late they stay open. On Fridays, of course, they all stay open later - some as late as 6:00. Of all the banks around me, only two have Saturday hours, which I love because I don't have to worry about getting off work late on a Friday.

Banker's hours have never been what I would call convenient. The wife used to cash her check and mine at the grocery store, because it was to much hassle to get to the bank. For many years, almost all our deposits were made through the night deposit slot. Only in the past five years or so have these various branches used the times that I've outlined above.

Re:ATM machines

[stewbacca]

I deposited $400 cash in the ATM last week, and I deposit checks with my phone. Every time I go IN the bank, they try to sell me on a loan or a credit card. It is safe to say that I don't ever need to go into a bank anymore unless I need a loan or a new credit card. So maybe BANKS are the dead tech, and ATMs live forever.

Re:ATM machines

[Dr_Barnowl]

Brazil is changing it's ATMs to Linux. Presumably it's the year of Linux on the ATM.

Re:ATM machines

[stewbacca]

An ATM machine can't sell you a bunch of stuff like humans inside the bank can, though.

Re:ATM machines

[KeithSmillie]

I did ask for the Automated T Machine but all I got was a cup of brown water.

Re:ATM machines

[Runaway1956]

I've diddled with OS2 and eCommstation - I'm not thrilled with them, but they are alright. They might be a better alternative than Microsoft though. Personally, I would prefer a Unix-like OS.

Re:ATM machines

[Anonymous Coward]

What idiot runs an ATM on windows? Use a real os - years of uptime and no license fees. It isn't hard to do.

Re:ATM machines

[Chrisq]

Hmm I am 27 and I WONT USE THE DAMN SELF CHECKOUT anymore.. A human checker can always complete my transaction faster than I can unless they are new trainee or something.

I only use the auto checkout if I have half a dozen items or less. It is usually quicker than queuing at a checkout.

Re:ATM machines

[Dr_Barnowl]

Cashback here is limited to larger stores in general. It's something I will use, but I go long enough between visits that I need to visit an ATM to grab some lunch money. Perhaps we don't habitually carry as much cash as a result - I rarely carry over £50 ($82) unless I know I'll be away from an ATM or I'm planning to spend heavily.

The population density thing, I totally get. It probably is worth it to avoid driving an hour or something similarly stupid. I even understand it for situations like nightclubs where the utility cost of leaving, finding an ATM, not getting mugged, and getting the bouncer to let you back in, and having your "pull" survive the 20 minute break, outweighs a few dollars.

And Wikipedia says that 60% of your ATMs are of the third-party variety, so I guess the market agrees too.

One thing that did shock me some more on reading is that some ATMs in the USA charge "denial" fees, for telling you that you can't have any money (because none is left or you exceeded your daily withdrawal limit). That's just nasty.

Re:ATM machines

[RobDude]

Maybe I'm alone in this; but I always feel like I'm being *judged* by the human tellers.

They see my accounts, the balances, they look at me, can reasonably estimate my age and in a split second they decide if I'm a good customer or a bad customer (and by extension a good person or a bad one).

Maybe it's silly? I don't know...

I distinctly remember going into my bank and asking to sit down with an investment guy. I wanted to come up with a savings/investment/retirement solution that I would follow from now until forever. Eventually, this could be large sums of money. At the time, the teller asked for my debit card, to pull up my information. She took one look at the screen and my ~$300 (combined between my checking and savings account) and handed me a fold-out pamphlet on 'How to Save Money'.

I admit, I was fully extended on a house flip project I was doing. But I went to the bank because I was expecting a reasonably large sum of money to come my way in the next few weeks when the house sold.

A few weeks later, the house was sold and now I had a check for ~60k. This time, all I did was go up to the teller to make a deposit, I didn't even *ask*, but they 'invited me' to sit down with one of their personal financial advisors *right now*. Truthfully, I was surprised because I didn't really think 60k would be enough for them to bat an eye at. Anyway, I declined. Later I switched banks, but I have a feeling my experience would be similar at the new bank.

Re:ATM machines

[Dr_Barnowl]

They were the straw that broke the camels back - they wanted to charge to use their machine, on top of the charge from the card issuer for using a foreign machine. The resulting fuss caused all the banks to rethink and drop ALL their ATM transaction fees (from the customer perspective).

Re:ATM machines

[Gilmoure]

Because there's been ATMs around since late 70's? Before that, a lot of banks had extended counter hours to 6 PM, with 3 or 4 tellers on drive through and 5 or 6 inside on counter. And this was at a small teacher's CU, with only 3 offices. But hey, ATMs have now made 3/4's of that staff superfluous.

Re:ATM machines

[bberens]

Are your accounts free? Generally the deal is that your checking account with debit card are *free* and then they get you with fees on everything under the sun.

Re:ATM machines

[MBGMorden]

You can actually deposit checks through the ATM as well (not sure if you already knew that or just had an aversion to it). I still do it occasionally when someone sends me a money order or something for an online sale. Works great. Heck most of the newer ATM's have some form of OCR that will even recognize most handwriting and will automatically fill in the deposit amount after you insert the check (and print a scanned copy of the check on your deposit receipt).

Re:ATM machines

[Anonymous Coward]

My favorite are the automated teller ATM machines. They are so automated and machine-y

Re:ATM machines

[Cinder6]

I also hate the self-checkout things. As another poster said, no matter how fast you get, you're going to be slower than a real clerk because the machine physically doesn't let you go to fast. Add to that the fact most people are slow as molasses on those things, and they're a real pain. And if someone buys alcohol, then you still need a real person to come over and clear it, same as if there's a problem with scanning.

Re:ATM machines

[timbo234]

UK bank accounts are free, both the 'everyday' accounts and the savings ones. The UK banks make enough money off their mortgage and investment bank activities, at least up until 2008. Now they're effectively supported by government.

Re:ATM machines

[Anonymous Coward]

It's the RAS syndrome. It's very common.

Re:ATM machines

[Anonymous Coward]

I can understand some users having trouble because some of the systems are awkward. One store I go to has an easy system with little lag. Another makes you wait for the item to clear the entire length of the belt and, if it retracts it, won't back the price out without an override from a clerk.

But what I have no patience for is the idiot who spends 5 minutes trying to pay.

Re:ATM machines

[l_bratch]

Yes, accounts in the UK are generally free and come with all the free conveniences described by the GP. Banking in the US sounds horribly old fashioned...

Re:ATM machines

[icebrain]

I have (more than once) had a teller look at my account balances and announce to everyone in earshot that it was a lot of money to have in an account like that, and would I be interested in one of their investment options?

Re:ATM machines

[HaZardman27]

In the city I live in, it seems there are very few grocery stores with employees motivated enough to care about getting the customer through the line as quickly as possible. Very irritating, as I used to work at a grocery store in high school which kept a record of our checkout speeds, and I was usually one of the faster ones at above seventy items per minute. Even with the inadequacies of the self-checkout systems, I can still usually do it faster than the paid cashiers. Also helps that I still remember the PLU's of some of the more common produce items so I don't even need to do a lookup on them, something most of the cashiers in my area apparently can't do.

Re:ATM machines

[bberens]

I think that credit unions here in the states are generally that way. Bank of America might charge you for using their ATM to get money from your credit union with their ATM but your credit union won't generally charge you. Some credit unions will even pay the ATM fees for you. And yes, Americans are accustomed to getting raked over the coals by corporations at every turn and there is a huge portion of the population that welcomes more of it at any turn.

Re:ATM machines

[sorak]

I'm curious if this "over 40" thing will change over time. In ten years, I would expect people in their fifties to know how to check email. I'm sure that by the time I get old, the world will revolve around facebook credits, and all communications will be abandoned in favor of "stickynotes" left in some door game on a social networking site ("IM? That doesn't even generate L33tL00t!"), but I would suspect the "old people can't use an ATM" meme to die out pretty soon.

Re:ATM machines

[Runaway1956]

No, I didn't know that. I'll make an assumption, though, that our local banks probably don't have that feature. Out here in Backwoods, Nowhere, they don't keep up with the rest of the world. I'll look around me though, and see what's available.

Re:ATM machines

[misexistentialist]

The solution is to pick a bank that gives a shit about its customers. These banks never charge ATM fees and will refund fees charged by other banks. They usually have substantially higher interest rates as well. Companies are supposed to serve their customers, not erect obstacles and traps.

Re:ATM machines

[Anonymous Coward]

My problem with them is that people take an entire cart full of groceries through them instead of just a few items. People are too stupid to know that they're not as fast.

Re:ATM machines

[datapharmer]

Automated checkout would be fine if it actually worked, but it doesn't. It may be ok at a superstore or a grocery where you have 1 or 2 small items, but I absolutely HATE going to Home improvement stores like Home Depot now. They often ONLY have automated checkout, which is a real PITA when you are tying to buy asphalt, concrete, lumber, and other large and heavy items that don't even fit on the table, and then the damn machine wants me to bag them and won't let me scan anything until I convince it my 12 foot piece of wood has been set in a plastic bag. Further this is a pain for things like fasteners that don't have barcodes, as you now must wait for the 1 employee monitoring 6 checkout counters to get to you. Finally It is time to use the credit card.... oh wait, it seems to never work (especially at Lowe's Hardware for some reason). So after fighting with 50+ pound bags that could have been scanned by an employee with a gun-scanner and waiting for an employee to tell the machine I am over 18 and can buy paint, and waiting for an employee to count how many screws I purchased and waiting for an employee to manually enter my credit card number I could have been through a normal line 3 or 4 times and without breaking my back. Tell you what, you can complain about the slow dumb old people trying to use the machines when I get the option to use a person back (and I'm not over 40, but I do understand the validity of your complaints too)

Re:ATM machines

[FictionPimp]

I won't use it because I'm not getting a discount to do the work myself.

Re:ATM machines

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, sir, I assure you that all our ATM machines are networked with the TCP/IP protocol, so yes, they are automatic.

Do they all share the same LAN network?

Re:ATM machines

[vlm]

I have (more than once) had a teller look at my account balances and announce to everyone in earshot that it was a lot of money to have in an account like that, and would I be interested in one of their investment options?

You really want awkward, request too much cash in her opinion, and everyone in earshot hears "You sure, that is a lot of cash to carrying around?"
Uh, thanks, next time I'll use the (silent) ATM.

Re:ATM machines

[Machtyn]

That would be a nice "problem" to have! Hehe.

Seriously, the approach taken by the tellers in the situation described is one where I would start shopping around to new banks, if only for security reasons.

Re:ATM machines

[smooth wombat]

They see my accounts, the balances, they look at me, can reasonably estimate my age and in a split second they decide if I'm a good customer or a bad customer

Funny you should mention this as it brings back a true story that happened to me not too long ago.

Right before the Bush Recession hit, I had put large portions of my savings into some short-term CDs which were paying an interest rate several points above what I could get in my regular savings account. As I didn't need the money, it was a no brainer, especially since right after that things went to pot.

When the CD came due I went to the bank to get my money out plus the interest. When the young woman came back with my check and gave me my check, instead of simply shaking my hand, she used both her hands to hold mine and with the biggest smile possible thanked me for my business.

The amount I had deposited with them was a substantial amount. We're talking "Holy shit! This guys loaded!" amount.

Maybe it's just my overactive imagination but I swear had we been the only two people in the bank she would have jumped me then and there. But then being a guy, any half decent looking woman who smiles at me conjures the same thought.

Was funny as I could only imagine the conversation she had with her coworkers once I left.

Re:ATM machines

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder if they share the same model of NIC card as well.

Re:ATM machines

[teh kurisu]

The last time I entered a bank branch was to pay in a cheque. It was a long time ago, maybe over a year ago. I handed over the cheque and the card for the account. Before paying in the cheque, the teller scanned my card, brought up the details and balances of all my accounts (not just the one I was trying to pay into), and then tried to get me to sign up for additional services. All the while, holding the unprocessed cheque in her hand.

Now, I can appreciate why the bank would want to do something like this, and that it could be a useful service for some customers. But I was on my lunch break (because I work 08:30-17:00, Monday to Friday, and in their wisdom the banks don't open outwith those hours), and I did not appreciate having to wait for upwards of five minutes to complete a transaction that should have taken less than 60 seconds.

I left that bank a few months ago. I was sick of them.

Re:ATM machines

[Anonymous Coward]

You keep using the word funny, but hit post too quick. Please reply with the funny part.

Re:ATM machines

[sglewis100]

I've diddled with OS2 and eCommstation - I'm not thrilled with them, but they are alright. They might be a better alternative than Microsoft though. Personally, I would prefer a Unix-like OS.

Personally, as long as it reads my card, provides access to my account, and returns my card when finished, why on earth would I care what OS it ran?

Re:ATM machines

[vlm]

Bank close at 3PM, because, in the pre-computer days, there was several hours worth of counting & bookkeeping that had to be done between kicking the last customer out & close for the night.

Why they STILL close at 3PM, is... well... tradition, I guess.

Business banks. Many banks either are, or at least see themselves as banks for business, probably something to do with profit margin. They see their customer base as being the companies they make loans to, not some dude cashing their paycheck. If the state charter didn't mandate they provide "retail" side banking to all citizens in order to be allowed to act as a business bank, they would certainly not offer retail banking.

Shop around, there's probably a credit union or a retail bank out there, that's open till 7pm, unless you're in a one-bank town.

Re:ATM machines

[Wyatt Earp]

Never had that problem in the US, I've taken out up to 6,000 in cash and no one said anything beyond "would you like that all in hundreds?"

Re:ATM machines

[mikechant]

However, the problem arises that anybody over 40 can't seem to work them,

Less of the 'anybody over 40' crap please.
I'm 47, use them every day, and I'm twice as fast as the twenty-somethings who are too dumb to use the shortcuts (scan first item instead of pressing 'start', insert cash or card rather than selecting payment method first etc.).

Re:ATM machines

[teh kurisu]

I use them pretty regularly, but my problem with them is that they were introduced around the time when supermarkets were staring to encourage shoppers to use reusable bags. Despite this, some of the machines weren't compatible with these bags (they would yell "Unexpected item in bagging area" if you tried to use one).

There's usually a button now for "I'm using my own bags", but I've found that it's not that reliable. I tried using it in Tesco, and the whole machine crashed. I tried using it in Asda, but on that occasion I was using my backpack (with other things in it), which apparently was too heavy to be considered a bag. During that trip, the machine flagged every single item I scanned as "requiring attention".

I still use the tills regularly, but only for small amounts of shopping, and when I'm not buying alcohol as it requires human intervention. I make a point of scanning everything, paying, and then packing my bag.

Re:ATM machines

[mlts]

This isn't really a dig against Windows proper, but having one OS everywhere is a bad thing. This allows malware makers to focus on just one platform for a maximum payoff.

Having ATMs and other devices run another OS forces blackhats to divert their efforts, and it might end up that the payoff for trying to crack into OS/2 or an embedded OS with multiple security features may be far less than trying to get Windows 7 Embedded to pop up a command shell on an ATM.

Re:ATM machines

[microTodd]

The awesome part would have been if it was the same person. Would have been hilarious and fun.

Re:ATM machines

[Anonymous Coward]

With the machines at Wal-Mart, just give the bag rack a good solid tap after bagging each item and you'll never see that error message again. The scales aren't terribly picky about the weight as long as they register something with each item.

Re:ATM machines

[Runaway1956]

"Personally, as long as it reads my card, provides access to my account, and returns my card when finished, why on earth would I care what OS it ran?"

First, you're assuming that the transaction has been handled in a secure manner. Meaning, you just might care what OS was running, if you should make a large deposit that never makes it into your account.

Second, if the machine is blue screened, that sort of hobbles the machine's ability to perform the functions you've asked it to do. At least a little bit, don't you think?

Now, before someone cries about Microsoft bashing - what is the main selling point for Linux on servers? Some silly catchword about five nines, right? And, so many people are happy to chime in with choruses of "That's only important to servers, home users don't give a damn about five nines!" But, when you're stuck a long way from home on some dark rainy night, and you NEED ten or twenty bucks to get you home, and all you can see is that blue screen, you'll sure wish the bank could boast five nines!

Re:ATM machines

[david duncan scott]

"It's just as easy to go buy a pack of gum at 7-11 and get cash back if all you need is convenience." Sure, but some banks charge you $2 for a debit POS transaction (last I checked mine's not that bad, but I think it was 75 cents. Until they put an ATM on my street, it was a halfty-fifty call which fee to pay.)

Re:ATM machines

[mikael_j]

You can't be from around here. Around here most people will do their banking online and withdraw cash directly in stores or using an ATM. Those who don't do these things are generally either very old, very stupid or incapable of understanding Swedish or English.

With this in mind, when you are forced to go to the bank for something that can't be done online you can look forward to taking a small queue ticket that says you are number 917, looking up at a sign telling you that currently numbers 909,910 and 911 are being served and you'll instinctively know that you've got about 45 minutes to an hour of waiting ahead of you at the very least. At least you get all the fun of watching some little old lady demand that the bank teller count her huge collection of coins by hand because she doesn't trust machines...

Re:ATM machines

[Kozz]

Rant agreed! The only reason to use self-checkout is if:
* you're paying cash or credit
* you're not using any coupons
* you're not buying alcohol
* you have 5 items or less

I've set things on the machines and they'd complain about items removed from bagging area or whatever, and would just freeze up, waiting for an employee to swipe their card, punch in a pin, and allow the transaction to continue.

Many times I've said "fuck it" and left the transaction at its midpoint, seeking out a cashier who had a line of customers rather than wait an employee to notice a small blinking red light 8ft off the floor.

Re:ATM machines

[leamanc]

Or perhaps the same local LAN network?

Oh, I give up...this joke has apparently gone over everyone's collective heads.

Re:ATM machines

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm a human checker (in a specialty area). I agree with what you said (ESP needing the job...)

To add more. I get know our regulars. I can get your bags ready for you while you're in line. I know what you're getting, get prepped, and can have your entire transaction completed in the latency between touching the screen at a self-checker and it actually responding (including asking about any rewards cards).

At slower times, and for more sociable people, I get to know them. I hear about they're kids (parents looooooove telling people about their kids), I can ask about how they liked something they bought last time, hear about vacations and tell them about mine. Not on depth "getting to know you", but more than just the weather and sports.

I'm also faster when something goes wrong or if you need special attention. Buying booze (I work in the beer room of a major grocery store, so probably) but obviously over 50? You don't have to worry about showing/swiping your ID. Buying a ton but splitting it with your buddy? I can split credit cards! So you don't have to throw around wads of cash/get change/still wind up owing someone.

But yeah. The big thing is: I'm a he'll of a lot faster than one of those machines (as much as I like them at times), especially if theres a line or you look like/say you're in a hurry.

Re:ATM machines

[xaxa]

I would say for a weeks worth of groceries

That's where you're going wrong. The self-checkout isn't for buying a week's groceries, or even a day's groceries. It's for buying lunch, or the things you forgot from the weekly shop, etc. Round here, the places with the most self-checkouts are the ones without anywhere to park a car nearby.

Re:ATM machines

[modecx]

Maybe you should avoid buying huge bags of candy along with the jumbo jars of Vaseline, and piles of Boy's Life & similar magazines?

Re:ATM machines

[h4rr4r]

1. Why would you pay with any other method?
2. Who uses coupons? Why would I waste an hour of my life to save 50 cents off something I don't want?
3. I buy alcohol in self checkout all the time.
4. You must suck at scanning items. I would set the limit at a couple bags full.

Re:ATM machines

[Anonymous Coward]

then wouldn't it be an automatic automated teller machine machine?

Re:ATM machines

[alcourt]

I've never used an ATM for banking. My bank has branches in all the local grocery stores, and is open until at least six in the evening every week day. Saturday mornings, it is also open.

I've never had unwanted solicitations of services. The only time I was offered new services was when I asked questions indicating I was interested in such offers (like asking about online banking and they showed me information on online billpay).

I've never had to pay fees for my bank. They pay me for holding my money so that they can make loans to others. (Okay, so my interest rate is very low these days, it once was much higher).

I don't go into the physical bank even once a month, but when I do, they recognize me, and are genuinely friendly. If I have an odd question, they are more than happy to help, such as when my employer pushed me to a high deductible plan and I wanted to ask about my bank's HSA offering.

The idea of requiring me to only work with a computer is alien to me. I've done this with a few separate banks, and never had the problems others describe here.

Re:ATM machines

[RobDude]

Dammed if you do, dammed if you don't.

I need those things.

Re:ATM machines

[rasherbuyer]

Yes accounts are generally free, some even pay interest while you're in credit.
Fees are only generally charged as penalties if you do something wrong - eg. unauthorised overdraft, or exceptional - eg. fast type of money transfer
Other than that, the fact that they have your cash is considered sufficient reward.

Re:ATM machines

[IHC Navistar]

What fucking bank is THAT?!

I want to use them!!!!!

SRSLY, they could start a great advertising campaign with just announcing their open hours!

Re:ATM machines

[xaxa]

I have an old NatWest account that I use exclusively for paying in occasional cheques (my dad still gives me a £20 cheque every year for my birthday). At NatWest you can write your bank details on one of their special envelopes at work^H^H^H^Hhome, put in cheques and/or cash, drop it into the box in the bank, pick up another couple of envelopes and leave. I can easily alter my route to work to go past the bank in the morning/evening.

I think my main bank (Co-op) has a service to pay in cheques by post, but I've not bothered to ask about it.

Re:ATM machines

[Anonymous Coward]

The thing that bugs me about automatic ATM machines is having to set and remember a personal PIN identification number.

FTFY :)

Re:ATM machines

[Notquitecajun]

My Credit Union refunds ATM costs at other banks (up to like 10 transactions a month or something).

Re:ATM machines

[teh kurisu]

Yeah, the Bank of Scotland (my old bank) had those too, but on that occasion I got ushered towards the human operators because there was no queue at the time.

The Co-op was the bank that I moved to, and yes, they do have a cheques by post scheme.. Kinda necessary, because they only have one branch in Scotland. I've never had any cheques to pay in since I switched to them, so I haven't used the service yet.

Re:ATM machines

[SharpFang]

...and the problem with light items.
I bought 3 small, simple plastic pencil sharpeners. The items must have weighted less than 3 grams each, packaging included. And the checkout weight simply couldn't recognize it, requesting me to place the item on the scale when I had placed it already. When you need to call assistance (and then they struggle with the machine trying to force it to acknowledge the item) any perceived wait time reduction is lost.

Re:ATM machines

[peragrin]

I have to go to the bank for work 2-3 times a week. I have found a bank that is out of the way but has mostly Hawt tellers, who are all young and friendly.

It certianly makes my day go better if I have someone pleasant to talk with that isn't a male coworker.

Re:ATM machines

[sglewis100]

Blue screened ATMs... I can honestly say I've seen an ATM out of order once that I can recall. Many times have I seen one being filled with cash, but just once down for actual maintenance. With the exception of post-9/11 when I think the ATM machines themselves were not the reason. And large deposits? I deposit checks. I rarely deposit cash, but I would do that at a teller anyway, not for fear of the OS, but for more concern over the scanning mechanism, the thing getting jammed, etc. Security? I've had my card frozen several times due to worries about fraud. In each case, the bank was either incorrect (and unfroze the card after a call), or had discovered something far before I might have. In no case did I ever spend a cent. No really, I don't care about the OS. I give it no thought. My bank's fraud policies benefit me greatly, and I assume has enough potential liability to the banks, either directly, or indirectly (insurance rates going up after too many claims against their insurer) that I leave that to their security folks. PS: My Mac hasn't crashed in years. PPS: My Windows 7 box hasn't crashed ONCE since I upgraded it.

Re:ATM machines

[xaxa]

Bank cards, draw directly from your account, possibly with credit, but payed direct. And they usually don't have fees. At least in our little governementless country called Belgium and the rest of Western Europe

I'd be charged by the Belgian bank for using my UK-Sterling debit card in a Belgian ATM. Would you be charged for using your Belgian-Euro debit card (1) elsewhere in the Eurozone? (2) in the UK (or Sweden, Denmark).

Re:ATM machines

[SharpFang]

5. You're buying something light. A tiny gizmo of 3 grams or so is guaranteed to fail to register on the weight and require attendant help.

Re:ATM machines

[Anonymous Coward]

A grocery store in my area (Bloom) has self checkout lanes with a belt and no bag scale. It is fairly quick to get through even with 20+ items. Normally, the person assigned to monitor all of the self checkouts will assist in bagging them for you at the end of the belt as well.

Overall it is not as fast as a regular cashier but it's not much slower either.

Re:ATM machines

[ciderbrew]

You can't be from around here.

No, I'm not from round there.

Re:ATM machines

[ekgringo]

Guess again. I use Chase and sometimes the ATM asks me if I'm interested in signing up for various services (usually Overdraft Protection which they used to provide by default but regulations changed so that they are now required to ask before signing you up).

Re:ATM machines

[canajin56]

I've never got a ridiculous sales pitch. Only reasonable ones. Like, do I know about Canada's new Tax Free Savings Account laws? No, I didn't. Very helpful, that teller. Well, I think once I was asked if I want to increase my credit limit. They took "no thanks" as an answer and haven't asked since. But maybe banking is just more aggressive in the USA.

Re:ATM machines

[Anonymous Coward]

What's redundant about writing Automatic ATM Teller Machine Machine?

Re:ATM machines

[rtb61]

I just go to stores where they call out extra check staff when there are more than two people in queue. Also, staff smile say hello and appreciate a "not to bad, how are you" with a smile in return. Life is about people, I switched insurance to a company that had local people answer the phone, I switched ISPs to a company that had local people answer the phone ie when I am paying for a service I will not deal with poorly automated answering or people with language difficulties. Not only does it make life feel a little better, a little more human, it also employs fellow citizens. Choose where you money goes, it makes a difference in everyone's life.

Re:ATM machines

[adonoman]

Yeah, line-up waits are one of my top priorities in choosing where I shop for groceries.

My friends ask me why I shop at the slightly more expensive smaller grocery store rather than the cheaper warehouse outlet:

• It takes me 2 minutes to drive there or 10 to walk, vs 20 minute drive to the outlet
• It takes me about half the time to do the shopping, since the store is more compact, and doesn't have random pallets dumped everywhere
• They have a policy that no more than three people should wait in a given line, and will call up stockboys and managers to open checkouts if the lineups get long, so I don't have the experience of spending more time in line than actually filling up my cart
• They don't have someone checking my receipt after I just paid to make sure that I feel sufficiently like a criminal.
• The cashiers actually know their stuff - they have the produce codes memorized, know how to bag things to prevent crushing / leaking / melting

Re:ATM machines

[ekgringo]

Some of the larger US banks (Chase, Bank of America) have phone apps that you can use to deposit checks remotely by taking a picture of the check in question.

Re:ATM machines

[gfreeman]

Probably the same one I use. TD Canada Trust.

Re:ATM machines

[KingMotley]

what is the main selling point for Linux on servers?

It's free. Nothing about five 9's at all. If you want five 9's you run a cluster, not a single box running any OS.

Re:ATM machines

[_0xd0ad]

I find your username oddly (and quite amusingly) fitting...

Re:ATM machines

[deKernel]

I guess I would really like to see a link to a credible site making this claim. Governments don't develop the software that controls the ATM's, the vendors do, and I am pretty darn certain that either Diebold or NCR have Linux "solutions" in the pipelines. Now you might be asking me how do I know. well, I worked for Diebold for quite a few years and Windows is the ONLY OS they support these days. And for the last few years, I work for a company that sells host software so we stay in touch with the major ATM vendors.

Re:ATM machines

[Anonymous Coward]

TD Canada Trust started with the most extended house during the week, then had most branches open Saturday, and now there's a growing trend in Canada to open branches on Sundays, not just at TD.

Re:ATM machines

[icebrain]

The thing is, all of my bills etc. are due right at the beginning of the month, including mortgage, credit card, insurance, utilities, etc. Plus, I pay for everything with credit and pay in full each month. So my balance builds all month as paychecks come in, then drops like a rock when the bills are paid. The visit in question was at the end of the month, just before all the money disappeared.

Re:ATM machines

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't be snarky, Old97. As a fellow USAA customer, I need to remind you that not just anyone can become a USAA customer. It's limited to active duty and retired military (used to be commissioned officers only, but they recently opened up to WOs and enlisted) and their families, or a family member of another USAA customer, and once you're a USAA customer, you can remain one. For example, my wife was a USAA customer before we married. Her father retired from the Air Force. He brought her into USAA. She brought me into USAA. Now my kids are all USAA customers, too.

It's not quite as simple as anyone off the street going to USAA and opening an account with them.

Re:ATM machines

[lexsird]

You should live in a small town where they run their mouths about your business. I hate small town banks for that and other reasons. In my little town, if you go to court for a credit card or any debt, you are automatically guilty unless you can prove in spades and beyond a shadow of a doubt that you don't owe it. I swear to God it's crooked as hell here. What sucks is they take their judgment they bought from the judge and send the sheriff around to all the banks, find your account and lock you out of it. They did it to my mother over some damn bogus bill she had years old, they took every dime she had out of her account and it was her Social Security.

She managed to have a legal aid lawyer get it back for her, they aren't suppose to be able to take your disability money or your SS money, but these filthy fuckers will and you have to fight them to get it back. That really sucks for poor people who have no money left over from bills and they need their medicine NOW, not weeks from now when they finally get their money.

The evil cocksuckers did it to me too recently. I had a nine year old Credit card bill surface and they took me to court because I told the fuckers I had paid it off years ago and to fuck themselves. Legal aid? Ha! Lawyers are for the rich here, legal aid is over 60 miles away and they act as surly with you on the phone as you can imagine. So there I am, having all kinds of difficulties finding the paperwork on this, after it's been 9 years, a divorce and 3 moves. I get to court, ask for an extension so I can present a proper defense, explaining the difficulties I was having with an idiot xwife in regards to WTF she did with any of our paperwork, being she was the business college grad and insisted on doing the bills. AND I was having problems scraping together a lawyer, please FFS, it's been 9 years, they can wait a few more weeks while I surmount my defense, because I KNOW I paid it and I will be damned if I will pay it again.

BZZZZZZT. Fuck you, no extension, you are wrong, you are a piece of shit, pay the bill and they gave them the judgment. Next comes the local bank problem of them being right there for our Sheriff, who we pay taxes to protect us to act as a goon for these damn crooks. He goes in and serves my bank, they cough up my information and these fuckers get to seal my account and drain it. Here's where its a serious problem. It's an SSI account. I am disabled. This doesn't matter, I have to go to the same fucking judge who gave them the judgment to get them out of my SSI account. It doesn't matter that federal law protects it. The sheriff is suppose to blindly do as the judge says even if the judge is a fucking crook.

I pay each month to this fucking collections company who purchased this old debt of mine, 9 years old, and it was already paid the hell off years ago. I pay them each month or they will lock down my bank account and I will NOT be able to get my medicine, buy food or pay my rent. Its extortion and I put that on each check I send them in the note area. Note: Extortion. They still cash it.

Another problem with local banks, service charges. My mother's best friend was in the hospital, a 70+ year old woman who was changing banks. Her SS check was suppose to be coming to a certain bank, she was told it was going to be in the bank on such and such date. She while in the hospital, pays her bills only to find out the check went to the wrong damn bank and now all of her checks bounce. She is then charged HUNDREDS of dollars in service charges. This is money she doesn't have. Her money is so tight she goes without each month. Yet she had to go begging relatives to pay this or END UP IN JAIL. And she did talk to the bank explaining it, she went with hat in hand and was crying. They didn't give a fuck, give us your money you old bitch or go to jail. They didn't say it in those words of course, but that is the attitude you come away with from them.

Let me tell you, there is nothing righteous or just about this system. If you are poor, very old or weak,

Re:ATM machines

[Anonymous Coward]

YES, exactly, this is my pain and sorrow when it comes to self checkout. The designer of these needs to be taken out behind the barn and shot for not adding a VERY simple + or - % of the weight. Sure it could be gamed with this but better than it failing when there is a single dust particle on the item. I have been known to literally rub away the dust to get the item to "weigh right".

Re:ATM machines

[Sir_Eptishous]

Agreed

Re:ATM machines

[deKernel]

The reason you don't see surcharges (a fee is a charge that an institution charges another institution and a surcharge is a "fee" that a bank charges a customer) is because Visa does not allow surcharges to be assessed on ATM transactions. I bring Visa into the picture because more than likely if you are doing an ATM transaction at a "foreign" bank, the transaction will hit the Visa network. Now the reason that Visa does not allow fees on ATM transactions is because the EU passed legislation that bans those type of transaction surcharges. Basically, if your bank is located in the EU region, all transactions throughout the world cannot have a surcharge applied by the acquiring institution.

Note that POS transactions (purchases) do not fall under this rule and can have surcharges applied.

Re:ATM machines

[Anonymous Coward]

That's an argument for using a different method of identification than bar codes, not an argument against automated checkout. There is no reason for humans to be doing repetetive tasks, that's the whole reason we invented machines to begin with. A product-tagging method that can enable a machine to identify everything in a small amount of time using radio should be relatively easy. I can think of two ways to do it right now, I'm surprised we're even using 1D bar codes anymore.

Re:ATM machines

[DDLKermit007]

I think really the only effed up country that charges for ATM's is America. I go all over Asia, and NEVER had ATM fees from those. Well, I lie actually, my bank charges a 1% conversion fee to foreign currency of the ATM which is STILL a far cry from anywhere from $1.50 to $20 depending on the ATM.

Re:ATM machines

[jimicus]

Despite all the problems, using an ATM machine beats standing in that long ass line trying to cash a check.

Why are banks open only from 10-3, the sort of hours they know everyone is at work? And why is it that at least one bank teller is on break or on lunch?

If the US is anything like the UK, it's because they don't care about personal customers. Individuals don't make them anything like enough money on a per-individual basis, the only way to make money from individuals is to have thousands upon thousands of them and funnel them all through the quickest, most efficient means possible. And if that means a few customers get upset - well, you're never going to please all the people all the time.

I guarantee you if a really significant sum appears out of nowhere in your account, that'll change very fast. You'll have a bank rep on the phone to you within a couple of days wanting to chat. You're suddenly someone with some money to whom they may be able to sell significantly more lucrative products.

Businesses, OTOH. They're a whole different kettle of fish. They tend to have far more transactions per month, if they're in the UK they're far more likely to pay per-transaction and there's a good chance they owe the bank a significant sum of money - far more than most individuals. And a liability from your perspective is an asset from the bank's perspective. It doesn't become a liability unless the business owing the money goes to the wall. They're definitely going to pay a lot of attention to their biggest assets.

So the bank puts people behind the desk at a time that's convenient to businesses.

Re:ATM machines

[quacking duck]

Those are banks that don't keep up with the times (like ones which still require, *require* Internet Explorer).

TD Canada Trust has most branches open 8am to 6pm weekdays, til 3 on Saturday, and now some are even open Sunday. Their online access was compatible with non-IE browsers since I started using them, mid-2000s at the latest if not earlier.

I can sometimes get faster service at the teller than at the ATM in the branch, if there's 2 or 3 in line at the ATM and one or none at the teller.

Re:ATM machines

[quacking duck]

No ATM fees if I go to my bank's own machines, which thankfully are available almost everywhere in major urban areas.

I would of course get dinged if I used another bank's machine, and I avoid generic ATMs at clubs, fairs, etc, because I don't trust them (or rather, I don't trust they haven't been tampered with).

Re:ATM machines

[jimicus]

what is the main selling point for Linux on servers?

It's free. Nothing about five 9's at all. If you want five 9's you run a cluster, not a single box running any OS.

You'd be amazed what a poor selling point that can be. It still evokes suspicion from a lot of businesses.

Re:ATM machines

[cayenne8]

Who uses coupons? Why would I waste an hour of my life to save 50 cents off something I don't want?

I've not been using them as much lately, but I have in the past and you can SAVE a good amount of money.

First rule is, and you've alluded to it...ONLY use them to buy things you want and use.

I often spend a relaxing Sunday morning, going through the newpaper, maybe drinking a little kicked up coffee...I read the paper, look whats on sale at various stores, and I get the coupons out. I look through the coupons, usually 2-3 'books' of a few pages each and clip out what I like to use.

I have an organizer, and I put the coupons in there. I generally know what I have coupons for.

Before I go shopping, and I usually do my weeks worth of shopping on Sunday mornings, and get out early before the crowds hit.

I look at the various grocery stores weekly specials...and from there, plan what I'm going to cook. I like to cook and can either make up stuff based on sale ingredients for that week, or know of recipes I've been wanting to try..

I hit the store..get what I want, and use coupons that are appropriate for that weeks meals. If something is on sale, I may buy that item (if non-perishable) on sale with the coupon.

Those $0.25-$0.50 really can add up, and it doesn't take the cashier long to scan them. It can really add up if you hit a store that does double coupons.

Does it take a little extra time? Sure.....but not that much. I rarely eat out for crap food like fast food. If I'm going to dine out...I like to go once or twice a month to a NICE restaurant with servers and good wine, and things that I'd likely not cook at home....and I CAN cook some pretty complex and exotic things.

I figure my savings with sales and coupons contributes to good meals out.

I've not used coupons as much lately, as that these days many of them are for processed foods, and I more and more tend to shop on the outside aisles of the stores...fresh produce, meats, dairy....I like to cook from scratch.

And cooking what's on sale that week....has its benefits. I don't get stuck in a rut eating the same stuff all the time.

Again...I enjoy cooking. so, it doesn't work for everyone...I usually cook 2-3 main entrees and 2-4 sides on Sunday...and have most of my food for breakfast, lunch, dinner and snacks for the whole week. It is cheaper, healthier, etc...and to me, fun.

I also keep a pretty well stocked pantry..so, often times...I may not need to buy much more than raw meats and fresh veggies....I often have the rest at home already.

Lastly..summertime is really great...I use the charcoal grill a LOT. I'll often grill up different veggies and meats....and then during the week, put them together in fun ways....wrap sandwiches, salads....jambalaya (ok, not so much that one lately as I'm low carb...but I do live in New Orleans, so there are some staples you do, to use all your leftovers and make it taste good.).

Depends on your life, lifestyle and what you like to do with your time.

Food is a big one with me....so, it doesn't seem like I'm wasting time on it.

Housecleaning on the other hand....well, that blows, but has to be done too from time to time.

Re:ATM machines

[cayenne8]

Actually I hate ATM's, I have found I spend less if I actually have to go inside, not to mention I actually like the people that work in my bank, they all know me by name and are even comfortable enough to give me hell when I'm there (jokingly of course). On the other hand there is a branch of the same bank up the street that a requirement to work there is to be an asshole, I absolutely refuse to use that branch.

I can see your points...all valid.

My trouble is...I rarely can make it to a bank when people are actually there occupying it and working there. Most hours I have for banking....are after banking normal hours.

Heck, one of my FAVORITE things..is the iPhone app for my bank...I can just take pictures of most checks I get...and deposit them that way, with no need to actually even hit an ATM, much less a teller window.

Re:ATM machines

[Anonymous Coward]

ah, but the temptation to bag a few items without scanning them accidentally on purpose...

Re:ATM machines

[Anonymous Coward]

I see no redundancy... ATM means something totally different in the context of "standing in a long ass-line."

Re:ATM machines

[LunaticTippy]

I have bought lots of huge heavy items at the self-checkout at both Lowe's and Home Depot in the past several months and I figured out a system that makes it easier. I scan and bag any light items, then walk over to the human station. Usually the person is standing there ready, sometimes if they are on the ball they are already headed over to help me. Either way, I say I have some heavy items and they scan them with a wireless barcode scanner, mark them as skipped for bagging, and I can pay. I've bought hundreds of heavy and bulky items and my most impressive purchase was 2 flatbed wagons stacked 5' high. I had a friend helping that time, but checkout was a breeze.

Re:ATM machines

[jimicus]

Generally, day-to-day services are free but as soon as you go into an unauthorised overdraft you get really stung. Think charges for going overdrawn, charges for writing a letter telling you are overdrawn, per-transaction charges for every transaction that is declined as a result of the overdraft and fortnightly charges for the privilege of holding an account which is in an unauthorised overdraft. And punitive interest on top of those charges.

It's possible - indeed, it's quite well known - for someone to go overdrawn by less than £10 and by the time the letter informing them of this lands on the doormat, they're £100 into an unauthorised overdraft from nothing but charges.

Re:ATM machines

[russotto]

Avoiding talking to beautiful young woman bank tellers about the weather by visiting the ATM is NOT anti-social... the anti-social part is their boss making them recite ridiculous sales pitches from a script or else they get fired.

Try this: "If I buy your overpriced useless piece of lead-painted flair, can I take you out to dinner tomorrow night?"

Sure, it's skanky. But how do you think all those sales types get dates?

Re:ATM machines

[Ihmhi]

I'll take the time out to say a few things about my bank, PNC.

Let me preface the following by saying that I'm not shilling for them in any way; I'm just a satisfied customer for many years.

I initially chose PNC because a branch was close (1 block away) and a family friend used it and was satisified with it. I later opened an account myself, a simple free checking account. (To this day, their free checking is still free. They're ending their rewards program, but that aside they're not doing any of the grandstand threats that so many other banks are resorting to.) Their ATM (made by, of all companies, Diebold) can pop out money down to the dollar (as in I can withdraw $9 if I wanted to, which is fabulous at times when you're broke and have less than $20 in your account).

In the two incidents I've had with a debit card (one fraudulent company making charges, one ATM chomping my card), I was never charged for a new card.

My local branch is open 9-5 on weekdays as well as 9-6 on Thursdays (payday for a LOT of people around here) and 10-1 on Saturdays.

The only downside ever is the overdraft fees, but that's every bank really. They're not too insane with them and I immediately disabled overdraft protection once the option was given.

Thankfully, not all banks are still doing the 10-3, death of your balance by 1,000 cuts style of banking. YMMV, but PNC has been good to me.

Re:ATM machines

[yurtinus]

I'm pretty sure you're just with the wrong bank. At every branch of my credit union - while there may be posters and fliers about other loans and services - the tellers are polite, do their business, and finish with "anything else I can help you with today?" and that is it. I stopped shopping Best Buy because of the constant pressure to buy their extra services. I would drop my bank in a heartbeat if they started down that road.

Re:ATM machines

[StuartHankins]

I happen to notice a bluescreened or malfunctioning ATM at least once or twice a month. Not sure if it's the population here or what.

Re:ATM machines

[Capt.DrumkenBum]

The only place I will use the self-checkout, is at Canadiantire. (Non-Canadians, imagine auto parts store + big hardware store + sporting goods store.) The checkout people are terrible. Slow, unfriendly, and stupid. Anywhere else I will go to the human checkout person. While being a checkout person is a shit job, I am sure the person doing that job would rather not get laid off.

Re:ATM machines

[Anonymous Coward]

And even then, these automated ATM machines are useless without having teller functionality. So I only use the ones that are automated teller ATM machines.

Re:ATM machines

[snowraver1]

You can get around the bring your own bag problem by placing the bags on the scale after an "each" item is rung through. Some things like celery bunches, Lemons, Avacados are priced by the item, not the weight. The scale just needs to have an increase in weight to be happy, so put your lemon in you bag and place both on the bag scale. It shound't be necessary to do this though...

Re:ATM machines

[operagost]

Who uses coupons? Why would I waste an hour of my life to save 50 cents off something I don't want?

To answer your two questions: 1) a lot of people and 2) straw man. Seriously, man. Why buy something you don't want without a coupon? How does it take an hour to clip a .50 coupon? We don't buy stuff just because we found a coupon for it. Those are hoarders. And I'll answer your implied question 3) Why use coupons? For one, .50 off several items does add up. For another, a lot of coupons are for more than .50 (some are even for free product) and many stores will double the value of coupons when they are under $1. I'm sure you have heard of the edge cases of hoarders, counterfeit coupons, and obsessed individuals spending hours matching up coupons, but I hope I don't need to point out the fallacy of attacking frugality based on the straw men.

Re:ATM machines

[operagost]

If the last payment on your debt was nine years ago, what they did was against the law in every US state. The longest statute of limitations for revolving accounts is 8 years in Wyoming. Every other state is 3-6 years. http://www.creditinfocenter.com/rebuild/statuteLimitations.shtml

Re:ATM machines

[LoganDzwon]

I'm in the that process right now. Chase sucks. They do not want to provide services, they just want to collect to money and not do any work. My experiences with my credit union are still limited, but everyone I've talked to feel similar to you do about this CU.

Re:ATM machines

[stewbacca]

I use Chase too, and so far I've been lucky enough to have not seen that on our ATMs.

Re:ATM machines

[Rich0]

A human checker can always complete my transaction faster than I can unless they are new trainee or something.

Yeah, emphasis on the "or something" - like the checker has no motivation to live. I used to be a checker in high school and since you get paid the same to check out 5 customers or 500 there is really no motivation to keep things moving along. I did simply because psychologically I don't like having piles of work queued up, and I'm just competitive and all that (which is why I pursued an IT/science career and not life as a checker).

I almost always prefer the self-checkout lines unless I have a LOT of stuff. At the place I shop the self-checkouts use a bank teller queue system and not a queue-per-checker system. That means less negative impact from my usual luck of picking the line with the person who has 18 varieties of produce and a checker who takes 5 minutes to look each one up and then the customer pays with food stamps after requesting a tax exemption and has some vouchers from the oil-for-food program or whatever, then writes a check for the balance denominated in rubles. If I'm doing my own checking I at least know that the checker's primary motivation is getting me on my way.

I certainly agree that an even remotely competent checker will easily out-pace the self-checkout. It just seems that competence is not highly valued by the local mega-mart. The mom-and-pop place has the benefit of the owner walking around and seeing lazy employees eating directly into his pocketbook.

Re:ATM machines

[bipedalhominid]

Yeah, ATM fees are not cool. I see the justification for them but dont want to pay. Thank fully almost all major retailers let you grab an extra 20 or so while purchasing their goods.

Re:ATM machines

[Atroxodisse]

E-trade and ING direct pay your ATM fees.

Re:ATM machines

[Anonymous Coward]

Er. the ATM network predates the Web in the UK too.

In fact, Europe had ATMs (cash machines) before the US did. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automated_teller_machine)

As the poster above said, at some point UK ATMs charged non bank customers. That's all gone now.

I'm amazed when I'm in the US to see how expensive ATMs are. How do you put up with it? What about the US contention that your system provides better value for consumers?

Re:ATM machines

[BLToday]

I remember seeing a study a few years ago that said the supermarkets actually lost money using the self-checkout instead of a human. What happened was people bought less crap from the last mile (ie. gum, magazine) when using the self-checkout. Even when taking into account for the cost of a cashier, the self checkouts was generally less money for the supermarkets.

Re:ATM machines

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe I have had experiences with a machine almost entirely not unlike this.
Sincerely,
Arthur Dent

Re:ATM machines

[QQ2]

ATM Fees? How interesting, is this a common US thing and does it exist in other countries? In the Netherlands ATM usage both at your own bank and others is fee free. It's your money after all

Re:ATM machines

[JMJimmy]

but what if it's an automatic ABM machine for doing your banking?

Re:ATM machines

[stonewallred]

I got involved in a relationship with a bank teller right after I got divorced. She had been having difficulties with her husband and kicked him out.

Sort of awkward after she let him come home, but I continued to use her just because it made her more uncomfortable than it did me.

Re:ATM machines

[DragonWriter]

Maybe I'm alone in this; but I always feel like I'm being *judged* by the human tellers.

They see my accounts, the balances, they look at me, can reasonably estimate my age and in a split second they decide if I'm a good customer or a bad customer (and by extension a good person or a bad one).

Maybe it's silly? I don't know...

Whether or not the teller is doing this, the bank certainly is. No matter whether you go to the window or the ATM.

Re:ATM machines

[icebraining]

So you're the bastard who usurped my nick!

Just kidding. Hey, where did you get the name from?

Re:ATM machines

[Algae_94]

Exactly! I generally use the ATMs for cash withdrawals, but it's always a pleasant experience to go into a bank branch and have a little eye candy while waiting and then have a pleasant conversation with the teller.

Re:ATM machines

[Belial6]

We will get there. Self checkout has only successfully been implemented in the last couple of years. Attempts before that were total failures. With the current system, the only thing that the producer of products have to do is print on the box, which they have to do whether there is a bar code or not.

We are currently seeing store put stickers on the produce so that customers can use the self check out. I would expect that putting a rfid sticker on those first would be where we might see a pilot. They already have to tag them. Once that pans out, we will see either hand tagging of all product put on shelves, or some kind of incentive for the manufacturers to include radio. This will first be used as a security feature in place of the scale.

When that gets good, we can then expect the radio to be used instead of the bar code.

Re:ATM machines

[Algae_94]

My experience with Best Buy is a simple "no" gets them off my case. The defunct cesspool that was Circuit City was much worse when it came to pushing extended warranties and protection plans.

Re:ATM machines

[Anonymous Coward]

What the...

Do your banks really close at 3pm? For real? What country is that in?

The country I live in is nothing special ( your standard modern western democracy ), but all the major banks open from 9-5 and also open on Saturdays.

Im honestly quite shocked to hear they close at 3pm where you live. Do they not realise that most people have full time jobs that finish after 3pm?

Re:ATM machines

[Sectoid_Dev]

I prefer doing my banking inside. They're usually not busy inside, unless they only have a single teller. And I enjoy chatting up a young hot lady dressed up in blouses or suits.

Re:ATM machines

[lexsird]

Now I asked the judge about this SPECIFICALLY. I asked isn't this debt past the statute of limitations? I was ignored.

What really burned me was my local bank never told me that the hammer was dropped on my account. I could have been burned badly by service charges with no recourse at all if I hadn't by accident checked my account and found it frozen. I spoke to the sheriffs office prior to this happening because they are so prompt at filing these for collection agencies. I told them that my account they would find was my SSI account and it was suppose to be protected by federal law. They said, too bad, they just did whatever the judge told them.

Against the law? To me, the law is a fucking joke, complete hypocrisy. Those in power HERE decide if it's "against the law". Sure, if someone of money or importance comes along it might work for them, but for those on the bottom, we are fucked, we just take it here. Send troops over seas to free people? How about you send some HERE! It figures, our county was listed as the worse county is the whole state as far as "healthy living". No shit! It's a ghetto decimated by corruption.

You see, if you aren't a lawyer here, you are an idiot and they basically ignore you in court. It's the acme of a good old boy system that perpetuates the lawyer fees. Poor people don't have a prayer. You see, I am being burned for about $1500. Lawyers here want that to even talk to you. Now 1500 is a joke to most Americans, but when you live on 674 dollars a month, you don't have a lot to work with, so I will be paying on that FOREVER and the damn interest will probably double it before it's over.

If you think that's bad, how about the State and their zeal to get their tax dollars? My xwife burned me on taxes she didn't pay when she took her 401k money out and went partying on it when she decided to start doing meth. She picked up her meth habit at the factory she worked at trying to stay awake to do the overtime hours to pay our CountryWide loan. Well, that didn't work out so well and we divorced, she took the money and ran. I ended up as a casualty, crippled up, and abandoned out in the country with no transportation. With the help of good christian people, I ended up in the housing project instead of dead in a ditch. I got my disability, which the medical coverage saved my life. I am fighting the long fight back from absolutely nothing.

Anyway, the State wants their tax money on the money she made off with. Guess what? I was married to her, so that makes me responsible for her debts at the time. So the State, if you owe them money, will not let you have you car license plates unless you work out a deal with them. It's been State policy though to leave people on SSI alone, we have enough misery without taking what little money we have. But this year, I had a zealot who wanted to go over my budget to find money I could send the State. I asked her if there was a change in policy and she said no, then I asked her then to release my car plates, my budget was stretched enough and I needed my car to get to school, because if I had to walk it, they would find me dead about a quarter of the way there.

She didn't want to comply with policy or good sense. I had to climb over her head to the highest levels to get her off my back. WTF? If I was a little dumber or just a bit more depressed I would have just rolled over and let her have her way. In my condition, it was a major fight, and stressed my addled brain to no end. But this is the kind of crap that goes on in my area. We are poor and mostly dumb and they know it. Some people just don't have the mental capacity to deal with this kind of onslaught from the system and they just knuckle under.

I know if it happens to me wholesale, then I know plenty of others are having problems too. I hear too many stories, I have long since ignored them, not out of disbelief, but out of survival. Technology? It offers us alternatives to the shitty small town operations that discriminate against you if you are poor. Please bring more of it.

Re:ATM machines

[xaxa]

Round here (London), the bank staff are usually behind 2cm of bullet proof glass, speaking through a crappy microphone, and sitting behind such a deep counter that a conversation feels awkward.

I go inside a bank about twice a year though. I know you can get money over the counter, but pretty much the only time I use cash is for pubs/nightclubs, so I use an ATM in the evening on the street (or in a station) on my way to the first pub.

Re:ATM machines

[Anonymous Coward]

That's why I give myself a discount when using self-checkout. I'm saving the store labor costs by performing the labor myself for free, I'm going to get paid for it. You just lift two things, scan one, bag two. No problem.

Re:ATM machines

[michael_cain]

The cashiers actually... know how to bag things to prevent crushing / leaking / melting

And in a reasonable number of bags. I can pack what I get on a typical trip into my two big canvas bags easily, and the bags sit stably on the floor of the car. Let the minimum-wage teenager bag things and they use my canvas bags plus a half-dozen plastic ones, all spilling stuff before I can even get it to the car.

The best bagger I ever saw was a little old lady in a neighborhood store in one of the student ghettos in Austin, Texas. I was always tempted to ask, "Ma'am, don't you know that bin-packing problems are NP-hard?"

Re:ATM machines

[RogerWilco]

Over here in the Netherlands ATMs also run Windows, and OS/2 and other things before that. There might even be some Linux systems in there.

But they haven't had an ATM fee since as long as I can remember (mid-eighties). When they were introduced, it was correctly reasoned that they would be cheaper than human tellers, and their usage should therefore be encouraged. It has had the effect that more and more banks close their smaller branches, and places with less than 10,000 inhabitants often don't have a bank any more at all. Internet banking has played a large part in that as well of course.

But I've always found it weird when going abroad, that ATMs would charge you. (next to sometimes a fee for the international transaction).

Re:ATM machines

[Anonymous Coward]

Huh...where and when do you live? Here in the 21st Century in most of the US and Canada, banks are open till 6 PM weekdays and only close early on Saturday.

Re:ATM machines

[praxis]

You must have some big monthly expenses. The difference in my bank account between full and "empty" is small enough that it wouldn't raise any tellers eye brows let alone elicit a comment. Maybe if it was six figures, perhaps, but five figures, not really.

Unless you mean that you keep a hefty minimum balance, but then the difference between beginning and end of the month shouldn't made a difference.

Re:ATM machines

[BeaverCleaver]

In my experience produce is tagged when it is packed at the farm. I grew up on an apple orchard and it was a pretty clever process that used humans for the tricky parts (like visually looking at the fruit for blemishes) and machines for the routine stuff like washing the fruit, packing it by weight (each individual apple was weighed on the conveyor, which I thought was pretty cool in 1991) While the fruit is on the conveyor those little stickers with the PLU and the name of the farm are also applied.

As I said, this was in 1991, things may have changed.

RFID is still pretty expensive, relative to a piece of produce that might be worth only a few cents per fruit. Maybe a "better" sticker could be used, one that has a very specific colour for each item, or a much simpler bar code that can be read more easily by a machine. IIRC produce codes are only about 4 digits, it has to be pretty easy to encode that into a 1cm square that can be read by a machine.

Re:ATM machines

[Belial6]

Yes, the fruit is usually a 4 digit code. I was under the impression that it was done at the store because it seems to be inconsistant between stores. It would be easy enough to do at the farm though. Cost would be the factor.

Re:ATM machines

[hairyfeet]

And I'd say there ain't nothing wrong with taking a couple of minutes out of your day to jaw with the little teller girl, and by doing so you make things SOOO much easier for yourself in the long run!

Since I took the time to go in and yak at the little teller girl I can walk in there now and go "Hi Lisa, how's things? Well wouldn't you know it one of those companies I buy parts from done double dipped on my account" and she'll say "Oh don't you just hate that? That happened to my sister a couple of weeks ago and it took her ages to straighten out. I told her she needs to have an account with us but you know her, stubborn as a mule and hates change. Let me look it up, the $250 second charge? Okay let me just fix that...there you go, all done!"

So you see taking a couple of minutes to yak at the little teller girl gives you an advantage in the long run, because instead of a faceless number they deal with over the phone they know you as a person, which means they are more likely to help out if they can. Plus what can be bad about chatting with a pretty girl for a couple of minutes?

Re:ATM machines

[icebrain]

I've been using it about as long as I've been on the internet... late 90s at least.

Re:ATM machines

[KingAlanI]

I'm in the neighborhood banks all the time searching for collectibles, so I'm especially well-known.
You're right; I generally experience good customer service from banks' in-branch personnel. (whether or not they're hawt as sibling poster peragrin referred to. :P)

Re:ATM machines

[icebrain]

Not really... I just use a small bank for daily expenses and I guess they aren't used to seeing very much at all in most accounts. Mid four figures (the amount in question) was enough to spur the comment. And I do try to keep a one-month reserve in checking.

Re:ATM machines

[Anonymous Coward]

Indeed. I tried the robo-checkouts when they were brand new, and loved them. This was mainly because no one else was using them, and I could get my one or two items and get out quickly. Then they got more stupid (more sensitive to the scale among other things), and other people started using them, and now, I often choose the human express checkout unless I am certain the robo-checkout line is shorter.

Re:ATM machines

[KingAlanI]

I generally don't hear too many of the sales pitches, and even if I do get some of that, they stop quickly.
With me, the talking tends to be transaction-related, but drags out a bit because I'm not interested in the default quantities/denominations. For example, if I want $84, I'll look for 42 $2s, rather than just take 4 $20s and 4 $1s.
The amount of small talk is easy for both parties to vary depending on the situation, as is often the case in general. In my case, the side-talk is often related to the collectibles and such that I'm looking for.
Searching for those items is a big part of the service that I in particular look for.

Re:ATM machines

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, they're all networked and you can pretty much withdraw money from any ATM whatever institution owns/runs it. If it's not your bank, the owner will tack on a fee of at least a couple dollars. Your bank may also add a fee. Networking the ATMs hasn't reduced the fees; it's provided an opportunity for more fees.

Re:ATM machines

[Kittenman]

The cuties don't have to be fast but they do have to be good at their job. I once had one deposit a check for cash.... Very thoughtful of her to try expediting the process without asking but I'd rather she looked better and listened closer.

FTFY

Re:ATM machines

[adolf]

Next time, just push the "I don't wan to bag this item" button, and presto -- it no longer expects the item to register on the scale.

You're welcome.

Re:ATM machines

[Compaqt]

Thanks for the backup.

Now for the guy that modded me "-1 Redundant"--It's horrible to have to explain jokes, but:

TCP/IP protocol: TCP is a protocol (Transmission Control Protocol/Internet Protocol). What happened to the days geeks would lust after W. Richard Stevens' TCP/IP Illustrated?
SNA architecture: SNA is an architecture (Systems Network Architecture)
and SLDC control: SLDC is a control method (Synchronous Data Link Control)

For the record, I sometimes say PIN number, too, but that doesn't mean you can't rib someone about it.

Re:ATM machines

[Anonymous Coward]

I prefer to use ATMs but am actually pro-teller. The reason is simple: I'd rather have the under-qualifier dolts of our world doing boring but distracting busywork for a living than have them reduced to doing nothing on the dole or resorting to crime to survive.

Re:ATM machines

[Anonymous Coward]

At my credit union, personal (as opposed to business) accounts are free (no charge for withdrawals, cheques, debit purchases, bank drafts), but the chequing account pays no interest (only the savings accounts do).

All of the credit unions in my province have a reciprocal agreement whereby I can use any credit union’s ATM without paying a fee. If I use a bank’s ATM instead, I have to pay the bank a fee ($1 last time I did so), but my credit union still charges me nothing.

Re:ATM machines

[Anonymous Coward]

My personal gripe is people who call them 'ATM Machines'. It is not an Automatic Teller Machine Machine people!

Re:ATM machines

[leamanc]

Thanks for the backup.

No problem, I thought it was funny. :-)

A couple more that I hear in IT these days are:

SSD drive
ACL list

Re:ATM machines

[Anonymous Coward]

"Outstanding idea -- I can get through those things in about 1/4 the time it would take even in the express lane. However, the problem arises that anybody over 40 can't seem to work them, and if you're behind someone over 60, well, just forget about it..."

    Do you live in one of those countries where people are ancient at 40 and near death at 60? If not, watch it. Your granny may be reading /. too.

Re:ATM machines

[lightknight]

There must be a more better, intelligent way of getting this done.

Like the 3D gimmick theaters are using these days, I'm over the shininess / newness of it all.The touch screen's responsiveness seriously needs to be improved.

I don't care if I have to use a conveyor belt, and check off the items as they go by, we need a better algorithm than "Scan Item, Place Item in Bag, Wait for Machine to Register Item, Repeat." If I have a shopping cart filled with items, I can be there for an extra 20 minutes.

These machines are supposed to improve the grocery shopping experience, not make us pine for the one register still being manned by a human. I'm starting to think the Grocer Unions bought out the companies that manufacture these machines, and only sell them to stores to ensure job security.

No, because no.

Re:ATM machines

[Anonymous Coward]

Plus what can be bad about chatting with a pretty girl for a couple of minutes?

You're new to /., aren't you.

Re:ATM machines

[ciderbrew]

My round here is London too. Not all banks have that around the city. They have nice meet and greet people at the door too. I've not been in Zone2-3 for a while though.

Re:ATM machines

[Anonymous Coward]

Despite all the problems, using an ATM machine beats standing in that long ass line trying to cash a check.

Why are banks open only from 10-3, the sort of hours they know everyone is at work? And why is it that at least one bank teller is on break or on lunch?

Because your *other* option that *all* the tellers are on break at the same time. Dumbass.

Re:ATM machines

[coolmadsi]

The thing I hate about self checkouts is it stops every time it calculates too much weight or not enough weight in the bagging area once its scanned. Without fail the human has to come over and bypass the error message.

This bugs me about self checkouts too; I usualy want to put stuff straight into my backpack, but it complains if I put that on the scale, and complains if I don't put stuff onto the scale before putting it into my bag. Its as if they don't want people to stop using new carrier bags each time they shop.

Re:ATM machines

[Machtyn]

not batting an eye at a 5 figure account? I'm usually pleased when I break 4 figures!

Re:ATM machines

[Anonymous Coward]

Pfff, bad argument imo.. First off, the teller girl usually doesn't have the authority to simply remove duplicate debits from your account without some kind of intervention from a manager (especially over $100). Also, if it is bank policy to protect you from account fraud or you pay for a plan that has this option, you can spend a couple minutes on the phone on the way to work to resolve the same issue, without standing in line waiting for all the other customers to have their friendly conversations. Sometimes its a 5-10 minute hold calling Bank of America but at least on bluetooth I can be doing other things that I would normally be doing, not just staring at ceiling or thinking about what else I could be doing.. I'm not interested in the bank tellers friendly conversations in a metro area, and neither are they normally.

Re:ATM machines

[praxis]

Not five figure account. Five figure monthly churn. I would think five figure accounts are common enough.

Re:ATM machines

[socz]

I wouldn't worry about it. I worked as a teller and later 'merchant teller' for a while and I didn't care about customers having money or not. And to be honest, you could be surprised to find out that most people just don't have a lot of money. Very few in my experience had any notable amounts of deposits. Even the businesses didn't have enough to make me bat an eye. What did surprise me here and there was what people had in their safety deposit boxes. Why would you keep cash or other things in there? I'm sure they had their reasons. The reason I saw a few things is because I was asked to help with their boxes.

I think people are more self-conscious than anything. An old school mate had her account with my bank and so I tried chatting her up for a bit. Well, I think she was embarrassed with how little she had in her account and left as soon as she could! Or maybe, it was just me lol

Re:ATM machines

[socz]

You know why? Because if everyone took their break at lunch, then everyone else on lunch couldn't use the bank on their lunch break! When I worked in a bank, we'd be forced to take our lunch anywhere from 10-2. WTF is up with that right? So you could have worked as little as 1 - 2 hours before you HAD to take your lunch. So it's for our convenience.

Re:ATM machines

[humdinger70]

If you're upset about ATM fees, there's a simple solution.

JOIN A CREDIT UNION. The restrictions that many had in the past are mostly long gone. If you look around there's probably one near you that will let you join because you live in the area it services. They're more customer oriented than most banks these days.

They have access to ATM machines. Not just the ones for the CU, but also on the CO-OP network.

And where do you find CO-OP network ATMs? Hard to find places like, 7-11 stores. Must be about a million billion of them. Yes, no fees for using your card there.

Re:ATM machines

[TBBle]

Even then, I prefer to use the human lane - a minimum wage checkout worker needs their job more than I need to buy stupid crap faster.

This is exactly the reason I use the automated checkout every time. I don't believe I should be supporting with my purchasing power the idea that we should create or maintain minimum-wage/menial jobs simply to keep people busy. We should be moving the other way as a society, removing the need to keep people employed in positions that could be better done mechanically instead.

This is partly because I may have accidentally absorbed a large chunk of Marxian economic theory into my base assumptions (from reading "The Stainless Steel Rat Joins the Army" as a youth), and partly because the more computers run things, the more computer programmers like me will have jobs to keep us busy and high on the socio-economic food chain (from reading the Paranoia background materials more recently). ^_^

Re:ATM machines

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's another, most places that install robo-checkout dramatically cut staff for the regular checkout. I can go to my local supermarket at any given hour on any given day and I've seen at most three staffed lines out of 15. The worst bit is that they've got two robo-checkout locations but one is offline half the time because they don't want to staff someone to oversee it.

Dont forget OSX and Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

They have utterly failed to "destroy Windows on the desktop", and will continue to do so.

Re:Dont forget OSX and Linux

[gabebear]

They(OSX and Linux) have utterly failed to "destroy Windows on the desktop", and will continue to do so.

I don't think Windows has failed to fail. It fails pretty well.

Re:Dont forget OSX and Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

Congratulations, you succeeded in failing!

Re:Dont forget OSX and Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

What interesting is that while they didn't "destroy" Windows (Windows is definitely still out there) they pretty much did make Windows completely irrelevant and unneeded. You can go years at a stretch without seeing a Windows machine. That was really hard in the 1990s. Nowdays, Slashdot itself is pretty much my only exposure to Microsoft.

Re:Dont forget OSX and Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, Vista was such a big success. LOL

Re:Dont forget OSX and Linux

[x*yy*x]

And what about games? There's really no sense using anything else than Windows for gaming (well maybe consoles, but all that mouse & keyboard thing)

Re:Dont forget OSX and Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, but according to all the fanbois out there Windows was suppose to collapse utterly just around the time XP was coming to market. While you may feel witty in your lame retort the fact is that we've heard nothing but endless cries of "this is the big one, this is the one that is going to bury MS" everytime MS did anything that didn't fall in line with the open source cult's commandments or anytime MS stubbed their toe with crap like MS Bob.
 
According to the knids of brain trusts we have floating around here MS should be a faint memory by now and Linux should have spread to every desktop on the globe. Meh. I don't care either way but it is fun to see these people who've been using every adoption of Linux with more than 10 users as a salve for their wounds. Keep hope alive, brothers. I'm sure MS will be filing for chapter 13 sometime in your great grandchildrens' lifetime. And if they do file earlier you can all shove this in my face and tell me about how you were right all along and scream "developers developers developers" at the top of your lungs while fling about chairs... Whatever gets you through the day.

Re:Dont forget OSX and Linux

[stewbacca]

Who ever said OSX or Linux are trying to destroy Windows on the desktop? Why would you even put that in quotes?

Re:Dont forget OSX and Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

They have utterly failed to "destroy Windows on the desktop", and will continue to do so.

Well, technically, I guess you're right. They aren't really destroying Windows on the desktop.

Between iOS and Android, though, more and more people are turning to smartphones and tablets instead of desktops, meaning they're destroying the desktop itself. I suppose Windows still is dominating a dying platform and all, much like how Sony is dominating the disc-based HD movie distribution market.

Re:Dont forget OSX and Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

In the mid-1990s, Marc Andressen and Larry Ellison separately crowed that the Internet would reduce the Windows desktop to a set of "poorly debugged device drivers".

Technically, that may be true :) but Microsoft still makes quite a pocket of change selling them.

Re:Dont forget OSX and Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

That's some malicious astroturfing there.

Re:Dont forget OSX and Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

Except Windows is the dominate OS on the market today.

Re:Dont forget OSX and Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

What are you rambling on about? Sure, in the late '90s everyone kept saying "THIS is the year of Linux on the desktop" but I haven't heard anyone but self-obsessed bloggers make such claims in recent years.

What has been said (and verified by statistics) is that Windows is slowly losing market share, something which was predicted already when Windows started losing momentum years ago.

Right now everyone is just waiting for either a game-changer or for the market shares to even out a bit (I'm not sure about Linux but OS X has definitely been growing).

Re:Dont forget OSX and Linux

[oldmac31310]

would these be vermicious knids? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vermicious_knid#Vermicious_Knids

Internet Explorer 6

[Sonny Yatsen]

Despite it being a terrible browser, it managed to hold on for 10 years and is still the de facto browser for business machines.

Well,

[Compaqt]

the iPhone failed to fail (in accordance with general Slashdot consensus)

Re:Well,

[Anonymous Coward]

Slashdot consensus

You must be new here.

Re:Well,

[MikeDirnt69]

Look at his sig

Re:Well,

[rolfwind]

I would say the iPad.

There was nitpicking about general features of the first iPhone (and still, not being available unlocked in the USA still is one of them) but mostly everyone recognized it would be a success. Only the people bitching about lack of physical keyboard were pretty shrill.

OTOH, if you went by the /. on the iPad before it was released, you would have thought it would have sunk like a boat anchor or G4 Cube:)

Re:Well,

[maxwell demon]

And of course the iPod: No high-speed wireless. Less space than a Zune. Lame.

iPod

[Hatta]

No wireless. Less space than a nomad. Lame.

Re:iPod

[Anonymous Coward]

That one short post is truly one of the golden nuggets of internet history, and how wrong a geek that "Knows it all" can be.

Re:iPod

[supremebob]

In defense of CmdrTaco, the first generation iPod was a piece of crap. It was expensive, only had 5 GB of storage space, required a FireWire port, and only had software available for the Mac. It wasn't until the third generation iPod where they had those issues fixed, which is right around where they started flying off the shelves.

Re:iPod

[Anonymous Coward]

Most computers didn't have WiFi then. WiFi chips were expensive and the iPod was already expensive as it was. The Nomad was a big, heavy and ugly. The iPod was also kind of ugly, but it was small enough to carry around and for about ten years it was the best way to listen to music and podcasts while on the move.

The iPod is probably ultimately going to be pushed out of the market by smartphones and tablets.

Re:iPod

[Anonymous Coward]

Bullshit. You obviously have no idea what the fuck you are talking about.

Re:iPod

[npsimons]

No wireless. Less space than a nomad. Lame.

It is amazing what marketing can save, isn't it? I've always thought that Apple was a smashing sales company, similar to Microsoft. Microsoft just knows how to market to managers; Apple knows how to market to hipsters.

Re:iPod

[mccalli]

In defense of CmdrTaco, the first generation iPod was a piece of crap. It was expensive, only had 5 GB of storage space, required a FireWire port, and only had software available for the Mac.

'Only' 5Gb? Unheard of in a portable player at that time. There's a reason they advertised 5,000 songs in your pocket - it's because at the time no-one was doing anything close. Most things were either CD player-sized Nomads at 20Gb or 128Mb 5-songs-at-64kbps Flash players like the 32Mb Diamond Rios.

Required a Firewire port and 'only' for the Mac? Yes, because they literally couldn't make them fast enough and sold each and every one of 'em that rolled out of the manufacturing plant. It also acted as a gateway drug that helped Mac sales along their merry way.

They were flying off the shelves long before gen 3. Indeed, I remember the gen 2 (with the daft Quicktime Player-alike buttons, now that really was a mistake) being ubiquitous at the time.

Cheers,
Ian

Re:iPod

[Rude Turnip]

Relative to what we know now, it was a piece of crap, just like any technology from 2001. Taco, on the other hand, was complaining that the original iPod didn't do wireless...a feature that, in 2001, would have been an awkward implementation and of little use to most users. Apple's M-O is to *not* implement bleeding edge technology until it can be made practical for most users. This is why the iPad didn't come out until only recently. It did have less space than a Nomad (by a gig...ooh), but made up for it in form factor.

Re:iPod

[Sloppy]

How was Taco's statement really "wrong?" He wasn't saying it wouldn't be successful (though maybe that's what he thought); he was saying it was lame. And compared to the other products on the market at the time, he was (arguably, subjectively) right, especially so from a geeky users' point of view.

He could have made a very analogous statement in 1995 with the exact same underlying essence about Windows 95, and nobody in later years would making fun of what he said, despite how widely deployed that product became.

And check it out: both of the shortcomings that Taco cited, were things Apple had to address later in order to stay relevant.

1. That the storage limitation got addressed was just a technological inevitability that Apple didn't really need to think about, so the iPod's storage limitations weren't really important. So in this respect, Taco's comment was short-sighted (assuming (!) you totally discount the idea that he was just talking about people buying the product as-is, as opposed to making a general comment about a coming legacy).
2. But please don't tell me that adding wireless connectivity isn't a totally essential aspect of later iThings (as well as the emerging competitors of original iPod), which the designers didn't have to really work on and think about. With networking and the software on top of it to use it, Apple had the big looming issue of "if we screw this up, we'll be crushed."

Even if you misinterpret Taco's comment as a prediction about commercial success (rather than as a user-oriented or technical comment), Taco was half right. At worst, he was "too early" about perceiving the public's need for networking.

Taco's brief evaluation of the iPod does have a humorous and ironic aspect, in light of the product's success. The humor isn't at Taco's expense, however, and it's a very black humor about the nature of the tech market.

Re:iPod

[stewbacca]

You make is sound like the first generation iPod was a problem that needed fixing for those of us using OSX at the time. Granted, it didn't take off until iTunes for PC + USB, but I sure do miss the 4-songs-per-second data transfer rate of the firewire iPods.

Re:iPod

[Wyatt Earp]

"Apple's M-O is to *not* implement bleeding edge technology until it can be made practical for most users."

USB on the iMacs and then G3 towers before LINUX had support for it, NT 4 couldn't use it at all and it was a super kludgy hack for Win 95 and 98.
Firewire/IEEE 1394 well before it'd work on LINUX and it was a almost impossible to get running and keep running on Windows 98/ME or 2000.
DV editing on a desktop, Apple pushed that with iMovie and the Firewire ports on their towers and iMacs.
Wifi, first company to push Wifi on laptops and desktops, while not the first computer to ship with a wifi card, first mass marketed computers with it and first advertising campaigns for it
DVD mastering - iDVD and the Superdrive chopped the cost of DVD mastering from around 15-20,000 a machine to 2,000 less than a year after the first DVD mastering workstations were available.

Re:iPod

[Mr_Silver]

In defense of CmdrTaco, the first generation iPod was a piece of crap. It was expensive, only had 5 GB of storage space, required a FireWire port, and only had software available for the Mac. It wasn't until the third generation iPod where they had those issues fixed, which is right around where they started flying off the shelves.

Ignoring the price, those were only "issues" if you didn't own a Mac.

I still remember the howls of anguish from Windows users complaining that they couldn't use it with their operating system and the software developers who, sensing the opportunity, stepped in and offered products which allowed you to do just that.

Re:iPod

[TrekkieGod]

'Only' 5Gb? Unheard of in a portable player at that time.

Dude, the very CmdrTaco quote the grandparent is defending lists a player that had more than 5Gb at the time, the Nomad. So no, definitely not "unheard of in a portable player at that time."

Required a Firewire port and 'only' for the Mac? Yes, because they literally couldn't make them fast enough and sold each and every one of 'em that rolled out of the manufacturing plant. It also acted as a gateway drug that helped Mac sales along their merry way.

Neither of you provides any citations to go with your observations, there. I don't have any numbers either, other than to point out that macs are still not a majority in the market, and that's after they grew tremendously in popularity since those days (the iPod popularity helped drive the macbook's popularity). That said, I'd still guess that today, the vast majority of people that own ipods use them with windows (and no, I don't feel like getting numbers to back me up either, so we'll all just say what we think without settling the issue).

Re:iPod

[mccalli]

Dude, the very CmdrTaco quote the grandparent is defending lists a player that had more than 5Gb at the time, the Nomad. So no, definitely not "unheard of in a portable player at that time.

It was the Nomad at 20Gb. The Nomad though, was not pocket-sized. That was the whole thing - the iPod fit in a pocket. The Nomad did not.

Neither of you provides any citations to go with your observations, there.

That's true - like you I was going from memory and having been there at the time. I agree with you that Mac sales were helped by the iPod but that the majority by far will be being used with Windows these days. The gen 1 days though - Windows users didn't have much of a choice, they bought a Mac or they didn't use it (Well, actually that's not quite true, I used to use the beta of a utility called XMedia so I could drag'n'drop albums from Windows Exporer I seem to remember, but that kind of thing was hardly mainstream).

I don't think we disagree that much to be honest - just over the Nomad, which yes was bigger capacity but no wasn't pocket-sized. Pocket-sized was the key.

Cheers,
Ian

Re:iPod

[Skater]

On the other hand, my 1.5 year old Macbook Pro does not have a Blu-Ray reader (let alone burner). I just checked their website and they still don't have it. I use my laptop for playing movies sometimes (usually digital copy, but not always), so being able to read a Blu-Ray disc would be nice. Don't get me wrong, I'm mostly happy with the laptop, but it just seems silly that even now Blu-Ray capability isn't included. Heck, I have a Blu-Ray drive installed and working in my Linux desktop machine.

The last time I bought a laptop, Apple was only supporting 802.11b, not g unlike other brands. I went with another brand that time.

Re:iPod

[LanMan04]

In defense of CmdrTaco, the first generation iPod was a piece of crap
It was expensive

compared to...what?

only had 5 GB of storage space

compared to what? A Rio player with the whopping 256MB of storage? It had a hard drive in it for fuck's sake! Any idea how much 5GB of flash would cost in 2001/2002?

required a FireWire port,

Awesome, because it was a gazillion times faster than USB 1, and an order of magnitude faster than USB 2.

and only had software available for the Mac

Awesome, I had a Mac then and had one now

Re:iPod

[TrekkieGod]

I don't think we disagree that much to be honest - just over the Nomad, which yes was bigger capacity but no wasn't pocket-sized. Pocket-sized was the key.

Yeah, I guess I didn't understand what you meant when you said no other portable players were available. You mean the other large capacity devices were not portable enough and the iPod was more convenient in that class. I can see that. That's also the type of thing the geek demographic tends to gloss over and dismiss as nice, but not as important, only to see everybody else hail it as the best thing since sliced bread. Which is exactly what happened with the iPod.

Re:iPod

[Yaztromo]

In defense of CmdrTaco, the first generation iPod was a piece of crap. It was expensive, only had 5 GB of storage space...

...and yet for the longest time, their best selling unit was the iPod mini (remember those?), which in its first generation maxed out at 4GB (and only ever reached a maximum capacity of 6GB). Apple still makes the iPod shuffle, which maxes out at 4GB as well. They seem to sell quite a lot of them, so it would seem to me that a lot of people aren't so bothered by these limitations.

... required a FireWire port, and only had software available for the Mac.

Which somewhat negates the argument, as Apple had been supporting Firewire in its OS for two years when the iPod was released, with about half of their 1999 lineup featuring Firewire (by 2001, when the iPod 1 was released, their entire line had at least one Firewire 400 port). They didn't have a lot of choice in the matter; the prevailing USB standard in most computers in 2001 was USB 1.1, which featured "full bandwidth" of 12Mbps. At a perfectly sustained 12Mbps (virtually impossible in USB), it would take 1 hour to fill a 5GB iPod. Using Firewire 400, it would take about 1 minute 42 seconds. One leads to a positive user experience, and one doesn't, and by targeting Macs only at that time, they had a bigger market of Firewire-enabled users to target, until USB 2.0 was shipping on sufficient systems to be a viable alternative.

Yaz.

Re:iPod

[Anonymous Coward]

What made the first Ipod rock (for me) was that I partitioned mine to be both a music player and an emergency bootdrive for Mac with all my repair utilities loaded. So I could boot up a non-booting mac from the Ipod and fix it. Good times. My first ipod still works too.

Re:iPod

[Algae_94]

I'm just speculating here, but a possible reason for the lack of a Blu-Ray drive in the Macbooks is that it would completely eliminate the ability to burn DVD and CD. Unless you got a Blu-Ray recorder drive which would raise the price of the system considerably (I assume a Blu-Ray burner can do DVD and CD as well).

Re:iPod

[Anonymous Coward]

Considering that nobody owned a Mac, that's a pretty big fucking issue...

Re:iPod

[Anonymous Coward]

Really - "howls of anguish"? There were plenty of competing products with perfectly acceptable support for the PC at the time. The iPod was about fashion and the "Apple mystique." Other than perhaps cosmetics, it wasn't an innovative product. It's success was due to pervasive and persistent advertising, and the herd mentality. Any anguished Windows users were simply trying to follow the herd.

Company I worked for...

[Anonymous Coward]

got stung like that many years ago. The patent wasn't really that close to what we were doing, but it was cheaper to pay out a couple of bucks per unit than to pay lawyers.

"The Cloud" (services.)

[Anonymous Coward]

Its nothing more than a stupid marketing buzzword for the traditional server farms spread throughout the world.

I hope it fails fast and harder than the web 2.0. Another stupid marketing cliché.

Re:"The Cloud" (services.)

[Anonymous Coward]

Not quite --- "The Cloud" is more --it's traditional server farms spread throughout the world on which you *rent* the opportunity to store and maybe retrieve data in a semi-protected fashion. Get it right: with Cloud you get none of the benefits of ownership and over a few years you get all the cost!

Cloud is what you do if you don't expect to need capacity long term. If you need a compute node for more than 3-4 years -- it's cheaper to buy and maintain it yourself (provided your local SA is reasonably priced and is riding range over 10 or more machines).

Re:"The Cloud" (services.)

[boristdog]

I used to think the same thing. But then I found how easy it was to deploy servers in the cloud and still charge my customers the same do-re-mi for hardware, bandwidth and support.

Heh.

Inventor Of TV

[Anonymous Coward]

It was John Logie Baird, rather than Lee DeForest, as the headline suggests...

Re:Inventor Of TV

[Dan Dankleton]

TFA phrases things slightly differently and makes it clear that DeForest was *an* inventor who criticised TV, not the inventor of TV as the summary suggests.

Also, Philo Farnsworth probably deserves more credit that John Logie Baird for the TV we know and... erm... know today.

Re:Inventor Of TV

[elrous0]

Baird's system was not the one that became "television" as we know it today. Most of the credit for that belongs to Philo Farnsworth.

Re:Inventor of TV

[srobert]

Hubert Farnsworth shall invent the Finglonger, which will enable changing channels without a remote.

Re:Inventor of TV

[Some Bitch]

Philo Farnsworth invented Television.

...a year after John Logie Baird did.

Cathode Ray Tube: Alive and Well

[retroworks]

This is also, in large part, what drives used goods exports, refurbment, and other "parallel" markets. Early adapters who upgrade are an important source of affordable technology in emerging markets (like Egypt). Americans replace CRT monitors in record turnover from 2000-2008. But in 2007, new CRT manufacturing was still 50% of all new unit production. The biggest threat to the CRT manufacturing industry, in fact, are the used CRTs displaced in wealthy nations, which are practically given away in emerging markets where 50% of the cost of a computer is the display device, and a CRT display device lasts 20 years and doesn't get stolen. This is when OEMs may get tempted to give the old technology "a little push"... I just found this article on how to create EULA agreements to keep people from reusing your ink cartridges. http://www.stroock.com/SiteFiles/Pub383.pdf Planned obsolescence much?

"Inventor" DeForest?

[Anonymous Coward]

Liar, thief, cheat and scoundrel is more like it. He didn't even understand what he created and for the longest time advocated AGAINST using hard vacuum in the triode. He was, like Edison, an idiot with PR.

NYTimes Pay-wall

[Anonymous Coward]

Failed to fail. 100k users, last I heard?

Good Rule of Thumb

[Anonymous Coward]

If Microsoft doesn't like it, it's probably going to be successful.

But but but....

[JerryLindenburg]

Tv is dying though. The numbers all show that.
It might not be dead yet, but it's reaching a point where you reach so few people as an advertiser on television, that you're better off buying ads online.

Facebook

[Anonymous Coward]

Everyone here has predicted its failure since day 1 and it will not be going away anytime soon.

I would like to make a prediction

[elrous0]

There is no way in hell that I will marry a supermodel this year. Just never going to happen.

Re:I would like to make a prediction

[IrquiM]

5 bucks that it does!

Re:I would like to make a prediction

[Anonymous Coward]

Later this year... Polygamy becomes legalized and supermodels offer to marry anyone, entirely on paper, for a thousand dollars each.

Re:I would like to make a prediction

[mjwx]

There is no way in hell that I will marry a supermodel this year. Just never going to happen.

I'm sure you could find a rake thin girl with an eating disorder, drug problem and anger management issues.

Satellites don't

[Anonymous Coward]

provide better telephone, telegraph, radio, or television service. He's right! Land lines and OTA transmission are better for all of those things!

And Tablets

[elucido]

Everyone thought tablets didn't stand a chance and now there is the Ipad.

Slashdot

[ZaphDingbat]

How about Slashdot, which is still going despite showing the same fortune cookie at the bottom for a week now?

Twitter will never catch on

[Drakkenmensch]

Come on, who would want to read what some unknown did that day, with only 140 characters? /sarcasm

Re:Twitter will never catch on

[Dan Dankleton]

Oh, that sarcasm tag was really necessary. There is no way anybody could have guessed that you were being sarcastic with that post if you hadn't included that.

Re:Twitter will never catch on

[JadedIdealist]

Now, now - no need to be sarky.

Re:Twitter will never catch on

[CraftyJack]

No, it wasn't necessary at all. I was tipped off by the humorously false subject line.

Re:Twitter will never catch on

[Anonymous Coward]

Come on, who would want to read what some unknown did that day

Well, technically that's actually true. At least if you believe those studies that state only a tiny fraction of tweets is actually relevant.

Re:Twitter will never catch on

[corbettw]

You had 41 characters left, I used them.

Re:Twitter will never catch on

[kvvbassboy]

Honestly though, when it first came out, I added about hundred friends. It was like they took the worst part of facebook (status updates) and created a new website. I now, only follow "celebrities" that I admire, and you gotta admit that Twitter provides a great interface for that.

Automated Teller Machine machines?

[Anonymous Coward]

Saying "ATM machines" is like saying "FTP protocol." Unless you're talking about the Automated Teller Machine machines that make the Automated Teller Machines?

Re:Automated Teller Machine machines?

[QRDeNameland]

Saying "ATM machines" is like saying "FTP protocol." Unless you're talking about the Automated Teller Machine machines that make the Automated Teller Machines?

..or Sasha Gray, Annette Schwartz, Leah Luv, et al...

iPOD?

[bored]

I thought those were dead, even apple says the iPOD revenue is declining. All the iPOD people now have iphones and iPADs so they dont need a dedicated music playback device when their phone is always in their pocket.

Re:iPOD?

[Ice Tiger]

Very handy for having my music in my car though, just plug it into the iPad connector and works way better than my partners VW card reader solution for MP3 files.

Re:iPOD?

[stewbacca]

iPods don't carry the $140 month fee that a phone does.

Re:iPOD?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is your capitalization so inconsistent? iPod and iPad are not acronyms!

Re:iPOD?

[RatBastard]

I don't have an iPhone because I won't do business with either AT&T or Verizon and my iPad doesn't fit in my short pocket. So, yes, I still have an iPod. Hell, my wife has both as well. (To be fair, mine's a Touch and her's is a Nano.)

Re:iPOD?

[quacking duck]

iPods don't carry the $140 month fee that a phone does.

Seriously, whichever carrier you're with... switch. Even on contract (so the initial prices of an iPhone vs iPod are similar), retentions gave two friends $45/mo plans with 200 daytime minutes, some long distance, unlimited text, free evenings/weekends, 6 GB data, and other extras.

Re:iPOD?

[Anonymous Coward]

Neither does my iPhone. Nice FUD try, though.

Re:iPOD?

[xaxa]

I've never used (or even seen) an iPod Touch, but isn't it more like an iPhone than an iPod?

older iPod: music/video player
iPod Touch: small computer with WiFi, can run any app you buy from the store
iPhone: small computer with WiFi and 3G, can run any app you buy from the store

Although that doesn't really explain why the iPhone costs twice as much.

Re:iPOD?

[mjwx]

I thought those were dead, even apple says the iPOD revenue is declining. All the iPOD people now have iphones and iPADs so they dont need a dedicated music playback device when their phone is always in their pocket.

Wouldn't surprise me in the slightest. All the people I know buying MP3 players are looking for cheaper, non Apple players.

But that's not the cause. Apple created an unexpected side effect of trying to combine an MP3 player and phone in that people went along with the idea and started using non-Apple phones for the same purpose, Now days I see more earphones sticking out of HTC and Nokia devices.

The Apple fanboys are going to hate this but it needs to be pointed out to them. No one gives a fat rats clacker about "snappiness", "Interfaces", "click wheels" and especially bollocks like "User Experience" when all they want to do is listen to music. Complaining about these issues is more annoying than BSD/GPL flame wars, the simple fact is the average person doesn't care, thus will listen to music on whatever they've got.

Probably not fair to all of the quote sources

[cgenman]

To be fair, a lot of the quote sources are businesspeople being dismissive of their competitors. That doesn't necessarily mean they believe what they're saying: of course Microsoft is going to say that Apple isn't a competitor. Doing anything other than that would give Apple an advantage in the marketplace.

iPod prediction is true

[Cajun Hell]

The iPod-is-deaders were right, but for wrong the reasons. It's true that no one listens to 1000 songs, but anyone working in tech knows that storage will expand. If this years model has 1000 song capacity, the next one will have 5000 and within a few years you'll find something that works for you.

Nevertheless, that product really is doomed, though not as an evolutionary dead-end. The iPhone replaces it.

All small gizmos are converging and for some reason, whenever application X combines with application phonecall, we end up calling the device a phone rather than an X. Phone is the "top" app (even if some people don't use that part of the device, it's still called a "phone"). An music player (even if it's an iPod) that makes phone calls isn't called a music player, a camera that makes phone calls isn't called a camera, and so on.

What is the iPod right now, but an iPhone with one less network interface? Eventually it's going to be cheaper for Apple to have one less manufacturing line, even accounting for the extra 50 cent cost of the cell network chip. And that's be the end of the iPod.

If you take a long view, Ballmer was right about the iPhone too. Apple's fractional share of the market will continue to fall. But it's a mistake to think that means Apple will lose money, because it'll be a tiny sliver of a motherfucking huge market.

Re:iPod prediction is true

[Anonymous Coward]

Except that the iPhone will never be able to reach the same audience that the iPod can. The die-hard Android or (gasp!) Windows phone users have no interest in buying an iPhone, but most of them will agree that the iPod is much sweeter than that POS Phillips/Sony/etc. they're currently packing around.

Re:iPod prediction is true

[Anonymous Coward]

I foresee markets for dedicated digital music players. How about for those folks who want to use one while exercising and not have to worry about carrying a (relatively) large $500-600 device. What about parents that want to entertain their kids but not necessarily with the strings that come with a phone. I agree this market will lean towards the iPod Touch/tablet type product with WiFi, but it still won't have a phone. I agree they are fairly small markets compared to the phone market, and Apple may abandon them, but I'm sure there will continue to be other companies that sell them. VHS hasn't been popular for years but that didn't stop folks from creating 1080p VHS machines.

Re:iPod prediction is true

[PitaBred]

I think he was talking the other way around. 1000 songs is too many.

Re:iPod prediction is true

[Anonymous Coward]

Or, to paraphrase a recent Chris Rock comment on why he doesn't listent to music on his iPhone, he doesn't want to be in a position where he needs to call for help and find the battery is dead because he was listening to Ja Rule.

Re:iPod prediction is true

[AJWM]

All small gizmos are converging and for some reason, whenever application X combines with application phonecall, we end up calling the device a phone rather than an X. Phone is the "top" app (even if some people don't use that part of the device, it's still called a "phone").

A snag I ran into when writing some SF stories and wanted such a gadget but didn't want to call it a phone (too mundane). I ended up calling it an "omniphone", or omni for short, because it does just about everything.

In my short story "Stone Age" in the current issue of Analog, in addition to ordinary uses like camera and recorder, it's used as a heads-up-display (unfold the screen and fade it to transparency), a navigation system (inertial, they're on a planet with no GPS deployed), and a radiation detector. Pretty much any of which could be built into a phone now, actually. The omni has other capabilities which show up as needed in other stories. (In one, a bad guy has "blackware" loaded that makes it a Taser-equivalent. That probably needs a hardware mod too.)

Re:iPod prediction is true

[xaxa]

In British English the long version is "mobile phone" (rather than "cellphone"), and we shorten that to either "mobile" or "phone". "Phone" is used more often, but "mobile" sounds OK in every context I can think of (turn off your mobile, call me on your mobile, take a picture on your mobile, can you get YouTube on your mobile?). I can see it becoming the usual term for a hand-sized device, at least if larger (tablet) devices get phone functionality.

Informally in Germany they call it a "handy" (the English word).

Re:iPod prediction is true

[Cajun Hell]

The die-hard Android or (gasp!) Windows phone users have no interest in buying an iPhone, but most of them will agree that the iPod is much sweeter than that POS Phillips/Sony/etc. they're currently packing around.

Are you speaking as such a person? If you are, then I guess you represent that group so I can't argue that your opinion isn't what it is. ;)

Otherwise, I'm sceptical that any die-hard Android users really think the iPod is so overwhelmingly great at playing music. I've used an iPod and there's nothing special about its music-playing capabilities (other than the fact that, compared to other players, it's so hard to get music onto and it likes to delete things when you sync unless you're very careful). So if you're arguing that the iPod is better because Android player apps suck, I think software can be fixed and Apple can't count on that never happening.

Re:iPod prediction is true

[Cajun Hell]

Chris Rock is either not a programmer or his desires are rare.

It would be trivial to implement a preference that when enabled, monitors the estimated-remaining-energy and warn/refuse certain tasks when it falls to a reserve amount.

If the iPhone doesn't have that yet, then it must be because not very many people consider always-available to be a super-important need. People got along for tens of thousands of years without always having a charged phone ready for emergencies. It's a nice thing to have but risking it being down sometimes is ok, because there's almost always a Plan B available.

And when there isn't a Plan B, you're that one-in-a-million case. If you worry about that sort of thing, you have bigger problems than applications competing for your battery. The price of an extra battery is negligible compared to what you paid for the plate armor that you always wear (even when it gets unpleasantly hot inside your bomb shelter).

Debian 2.1 had a tamagotchi server by default

[Nimey]

It might have come with the default desktop task. I thought it was pretty stupid to have a public-facing daemon installed without even asking, but since I was just on a 14.4kbps modem at the time, I didn't care so much.

Point of the Obvious

[Anonymous Coward]

This article is doomed to fail.

x86

[jones_supa]

The x86 CPU architecture would be a good candidate too.

Re:x86

[yuhong]

Don't forget the IBM PC itself too that was based on x86 too.

Re:x86

[Anonymous Coward]

Geeze! Who modded the parent "insightful"?! This is so badly wrong, x86 defines tech that we wish would die.

Re:x86

[Anonymous Coward]

Indeed. Many of us thought the Motorola 68000 would kill it. We learned our lesson about software compatibility over time.
Well, some of us did...

fax machine?

[jank1887]

still used quite extensively. use is generally a no-brainer compared to scan/pdf/email for most offices.

Re:Cathode Ray Tube: Alive and Well

[imsabbel]

Dont agree. 2007 was loong ago.
Take a look at the development hence: http://images.dailytech.com/nimage/19721_large_fpsales.jpg

10 years ago it sales were basically 100% CRT. Now, its 15%, worldwide.

Alive and well? More like sick and dying

Networked for withdrawals only

[tepples]

In the US all ATMs are networked

For withdrawals only, not for depositing checks. Chase ATMs don't take deposits for any other bank.

If you are with a large bank, they have plenty of ATMs. Banks like Bank of America, Chase, and so on have ATMs all over the place

Unless, for example, your account is with Bank of America and you happen to be in Indiana, which doesn't have Bank of America. Or unless you're with an online-only bank such as Ally.

most people simply do electronic purchasing using credit or debit cards, cash isn't used nearly as much

Public transit in my hometown is still cash-only. Even getting cash out of an ATM isn't good enough because ATMs have nothing but $20 bills, which definitely aren't exact change for bus fare.

Re:Networked for withdrawals only

[KingAlanI]

Yes, I've noticed that even big banks often tend to have lots of branches in some areas and none in others.
For example, Chase is all over the Rochester area, but has nothing in Buffalo, Boston or DC.

The local public transit is cash-only, (but that isn't it's only weakness.)
One good thing about the bigger-city mass-transit systems I've seen _is_ the farecard vending machines in the stations - they take debit/credit cards and can give change if you're feeding cash into the machine.
Having to go into retail shops to get change is annoying, especially if you don't feel like making some small purchase while you're at it.

Misunderstanding the social impact

[RichMan]

From my reading of these. All the technology was fine the failure predictions were based on not understanding the socialogical impact of the technology.

Google -> search
Internet -> sharing and remote access
ipod -> really personal applications
TV -> advertising

The most important part of these technologies seem to be the humans in the loop and what the technology does for the humans. The predictions failures seem to be failures in understanding the sociology. The message seems to be understanding the sociological market for the technology.

Re:Misunderstanding the social impact

[Anonymous Coward]

The real deal:
Google -> Searching for Porn
Internet -> watching porn
TV -> watching porn and ugly porn (read: 24 hour talk shows of ugly people)

Re:Misunderstanding the social impact

[Anonymous Coward]

Google -> advertising
Internet -> advertising
ipod -> music
TV -> advertising

Fixed that for you.

The tech wasn't the issue though

[Sycraft-fu]

The fashion was (and is). Really the tech for MP3 players has never been a big deal for most users. "Plays my music," is as far as they care about anything. Please remember that people were happy with discmans and walkmans and shit like that.

What the iPod did was make MP3 players cool, it made them a fashion accessory. The best way to notice that is the white earbuds, with cord hanging out front where it is visible. Their commercials show this and it is the style that sold. An iPod is fashionable and has thing like the white earbuds so that you can proclaim ownership and show off the fashion. Heck when the iPod came out all of a sudden high end earbud manufacturers suddenly had a demand for white earbuds. They'd always been a darker colour before since being understated was what people wanted. However white earbuds were a fashion statement. People wanted better sound, but only if they could still have the iPod fashion going.

That is why the iPod was so successful. Other MP3 players were just music players so people really didn't give a shit more than they had before. However the iPod was a fashion accessory that you had to have.

Then of course once it started to take off you got one of those nice positive feedback loops. People didn't know about MP3 players, they knew about iPods. If you wanted a music player you got an iPod simply because that was all you knew, even if there were no fashion concerns. An "Everyone uses it because everyone uses it," sort of situation.

Technology was never the big factor, and in consumer electronics that can sometimes be the case.

Re:The tech wasn't the issue though

[stewbacca]

What the iPod did was make MP3 players cool, it made them a fashion accessory.

What a tired, stupid, cliche. What the iPod did was make carrying our music around easier and remove lots of moving parts that are no longer necessary.

You are claiming the headphone cord hanging in front is some sort of statement? That would make virtually all headphones a statement. I personally use ones that go behind the head for running, but sitting on a commuter train, I don't really care what color the headphone cord is or where it dangles.

Only the most vapid teenager cares about white headphones. Foremost, the iPod is successful because it's a good product.

Lastly, how impressive is it to "proclaim ownership" of a mass marketed and relatively cheap product? It's not a badge of honor to own a $120 device that millions of other people also own.

Technology was the driving factor for its success, especially in the early Mac + iTunes only ecosystem. Once it opened up to PC and changed to USB, it really took off.

Re:The tech wasn't the issue though

[Mr_Silver]

What the iPod did was make MP3 players cool, it made them a fashion accessory.

It was far far more than that:

1. It was slimmer and lighter than the competition which meant it was easier to carry around with you.
2. It was prettier than the competition and looked like it was worth the money you paid for it, you weren't embarrassed to pull it out of your pocket.
3. It had a far better build quality. The competition were producing players with nasty plasticy buttons and creaky bodies.
4. The battery life (I think) was better.
5. It used Firewire instead of USB 1.1, so loading songs onto the device averaged about 1-2 seconds per song rather than the competition which was capable of about 1 minute per song.
6. It came with iTunes which automatically managed your library, syncing and playlists whilst the competition made you drag and drop your files.
7. It had a user interface which was easy to use and didn't make you want to cry. As opposed to the competition which never managed to produce anything with less than 7 buttons.

Yes, it wasn't perfect - but compared to the Creative Nomand or the Archos Jukebox it was an amazing bit of kit. In fact the only people who didn't like it were Slashdot readers and that was pretty much going to guarantee it would sell like hotcakes.

Re:The tech wasn't the issue though

[Anonymous Coward]

Muggers love those white earbuds. It tells them just who has the most expensive tech in their pocket to steal.

Re:The tech wasn't the issue though

[gad_zuki!]

>What the iPod did was make MP3 players cool, it made them a fashion accessory

I say this as both someone who borderline dislikes Apple and who owned several pre-iPod players: you are wrong and you're just playing to the crowd's biases and exceptions here.

In reality, the mp3 hardware scene was a mess of manufacturers whose interfaces and software were just terrible. Techies didn't mind, but Joe Average certainly did and didn't understand how to use this technology.

The ipod began to address all these issues. Joe Average got some hand-holding when he installed iTunes. His ipod sync'd up without him having to move or categorize or even find his own MP3s. iTunes would rip his music and also introduce him to an online store where here could buy music. And guess what? IT WAS EASY.

The other guys were releasing half-assed PDFs on how to use Windows Media Player or CDex to do burns. They would either put in some half assed sync software or another PDF on how to use windows explorer to copy MP3s. Joe Average doesnt even know what a file format is, let alone where his mp3s are (if he has any) let alone how to do a proper copy.

Guess which one the market chose? The other items like white earbuds are just marketing items that complement the hardware. It was a success without it. Again, interfaces and ease of use from out of the box matter. They matter quite a lot.

Re:The tech wasn't the issue though

[Wannabe Code Monkey]

That is why the iPod was so successful. Other MP3 players were just music players so people really didn't give a shit more than they had before. However the iPod was a fashion accessory that you had to have.

This is such a load of crap. My first MP3 player was one of the original Archos Jukebox's. It was a piece of shit. From wikipedia:

The Jukebox is historically notable for shipping with a user interface and operating system so unfriendly and bug-ridden as to inspire Björn Stenberg and other programmers to begin to develop a superior, free and open-source replacement operating system. This project became Rockbox."

This was the state of most MP3 players at the time. The iPod interface and ease of use was way ahead of other MP3 players of the time. There are still many current MP3 players still can't stack up. For some reason the music playing/managing ability of my Nexus One sucks in comparison to my very first iPod.

Re:The tech wasn't the issue though

[rvw]

What the iPod did was make MP3 players cool, it made them a fashion accessory.

What a tired, stupid, cliche. What the iPod did was make carrying our music around easier and remove lots of moving parts that are no longer necessary.

You are claiming the headphone cord hanging in front is some sort of statement? That would make virtually all headphones a statement. I personally use ones that go behind the head for running, but sitting on a commuter train, I don't really care what color the headphone cord is or where it dangles.

Only the most vapid teenager cares about white headphones. Foremost, the iPod is successful because it's a good product.

Lastly, how impressive is it to "proclaim ownership" of a mass marketed and relatively cheap product? It's not a badge of honor to own a $120 device that millions of other people also own.

Technology was the driving factor for its success, especially in the early Mac + iTunes only ecosystem. Once it opened up to PC and changed to USB, it really took off.

The Ipod is a good product because of its ecosystem and the ease of use, like you say.

However, besides that, it is fashionable as well, as are most Apple products like iMacs, iBooks (a long time ago), MacBooks and the iPhone or iPad. It simply looks great, and that is part of the user experience. And I agree with the parent poster that white headphones were fashionable. Look right now at those crazy headphones teenagers have, in all kinds of colors, crazy design and logos. The white ipod headphones set the trend. It was cool, because it showed you had an ipod. And now maybe it's so common that it isn't fashionable anymore, but still many people use it because they think they are okay and don't want to spend any more money.

Re:The tech wasn't the issue though

[Anonymous Coward]

What a tired, stupid, cliche. What the iPod did was make carrying our music around easier and remove lots of moving parts that are no longer necessary.

*sigh* No, the iPod was not the first mp3 player. Other mp3 players made "carrying our music around easier" and removed "lots of moving parts that are no longer necessary" before the iPod. Most notably the Creative Nomad, as in "less space than a Nomad".

So why did the iPod take off? It certainly did have positive qualities. It was smaller than most. It was well-made. On the other hand it was also relatively expensive and early versions basically required a Mac. But it was definitely cool. Apple thought the advertising helped, that's why they spent money on it. I for one am inclined to agree.

Re:The tech wasn't the issue though

[quacking duck]

Half tech, half fashion or more precisely the "hip/cool/image" factor. Saying it's exclusively one or the other is denial, and this is from someone who still has his 1st-gen iPod (not using now, of course, but it still works though battery life is measured in minutes), which cost over half a grand when I got it.

You don't get how "fashion/hip/cool/image" works. I'm not big on it myself but I get the idea at least. For those who care about their image, it's not that *you* care what colour it or the headphones are, it's the image you project to *others* that matters. And no it's not just vapid teenagers--women in particular carry the "image" factor well into adulthood, and men typically do it but in different ways: those who buy and drive a Hummer around? Image. That overpowered stereo shaking the street with its bass? Image. Harley motorcycles? Image. Buying overpriced Nike shirts and shorts? Image.

iPod and its successors were and continue to be successful because of the fusion between easy-to-use tech and "fashion", with a touch of exclusivity, especially at the beginning--it was after all Mac-only at first, and a product that can only be managed by less than 5% of computer users (at the time) does NOT get traction on tech alone.

Re:The tech wasn't the issue though

[Anonymous Coward]

Um, methinks you are too young, mister million-plus-user-id, to know what you are talking about.

The first ipods had many moving parts, and cost $400. And was very much de riguer to the hip urbanites when it came out. The ipod was very much about social status for the teen and twenty-somethings. Fashion is a huge driver of consumer choices. Otherwise we'd all be driving Camrys and wearing beige spandex pants from walmart. But of course we don't do those things.

Re:The tech wasn't the issue though

[Anonymous Coward]

The touch sensitive jog wheel input is what really made it take off. People love to bash Apple as a "fashion" choice rather than better tech when in reality both are true, and without the better tech they would only be catering to a niche market.

Re:The tech wasn't the issue though

[stewbacca]

If by "fashionable" you mean "nicely designed", then yes. This irritates the hell out of me because "fashionable" infers trendy and will look really stupid in a few years. Apple products are just well designed with good aesthetics. There's nothing "fashionable" about stuff that looks nice (with the bonus or working well). That's what I don't get about the anti-apple crowd. Nice design and nice functionality needn't be mutually exclusive, as Apple has demonstrated over the past decade or so.

Fashionable is buying a cheap t-shirt with the word Hollister embroidered on the front, not using a $120 consumer electronic gadget that everyone else on the planet also has.

Seriously, is a MacBook Pro "fashionable" because it has a nice industrial design that functions well? Is it that hard to make an iPod in multiple colors (to appeal to different tastes) and not get labeled "fashion item"?

By the way, the Apple headphones were white because every device they made at that time came in white. So it wasn't the headphones that were "fashionable" it was everything made by Apple and their brand marketing strategy. If people think they are impressing me with white headphones, then this is indeed a sad country.

Re:The tech wasn't the issue though

[stewbacca]

Apple stuff is cool...TO ME. I don't care what other people think. Yes, people drive stupid cars and clothes for the image they want to portray. But using a mass produced ubiquitous device that is cheap is not portraying ANY image at all other than you are part of the 80% market share of music listeners who have an iPod.

If the "touch of exclusivity" were remotely true, millions of iPod owners would stop being iPod owners..."I knew the band before..." crowd. Instead, it is quite possibly the most anti-exclusive consumer device I can think of. It would be like arguing that people with smart phones are trying to portray a certain image and are elitist, when everyone on the planet has a smart phone.

And the iPod DID get traction on tech...first by integrating it with a third party music library, then by making iTunes for Windows, then by dropping firewire in favor of USB. At that point, there were no colored iPods and nothing fashionable about them..big ugly bricks with a slick interface. It was all about the tech and anyone who bought them as a fashion accessory had more money than sense.

But your post provides insight to why non-Apple users think the rest of us are so smug. It's all in their heads. Hint: the overwhelming majority of us don't really care what you think about our iPod, iPad, MacBook, etc... We don't judge or look down upon non-Apple users--we simply don't care what you think and we don't really care about your choices either.

Re:The tech wasn't the issue though

[WATist]

Many adults do a good imitation of vapid teenagers let alone teens themselves.

Re:The tech wasn't the issue though

[Apotsy]

I did a simpler but similar analysis when the iPod first came out. I considered these three factors:

1. Size / weight
2. Price
3. Storage capacity

At the time of the original iPod, you could get devices that beat it on one or even two of those points, but you could not get one that beat it on all three. The iPod was (I believe) the first device to make use of 1.5" hard drives. Until then your only choices were flash storage, which was small but at the time had very little capacity, or 2.5" hard drives such as the Archos players used, which had lots of storage but were big, heavy, and ate battery. The 1.5" drive from Toshiba was a way to hit a size / weight / storage capacity niche that had never been achieved before.

And that's not even taking into account the factors mentioned such as the fast data transfers via Firewire or the click-wheel UI (which was a breakthrough in usability at the time even though the original iPod was mechanical unlike the later touch-sensitive models).

Re:The tech wasn't the issue though

[Anonymous Coward]

1. It had a user interface which was easy to use and didn't make you want to cry. As opposed to the competition which never managed to produce anything with less than 7 buttons.

That is the funniest thing I've read all day. iPods became as usable as their competition they day they ditched their silly "pretend to be a mini DJ scritching your mini record" interface and went with a touchscreen.

Re:The tech wasn't the issue though

[Anonymous Coward]

The iPod did have a much nicer UI than other MP3 players at the time. The jog-wheel let you get to songs or menu items much faster and precisely than on any other player. (No pushing a button 500 times or holding it down and worrying about overshoot.) And since it was a case flush design, no finger gunk could easily get inside like a mechanical roller. (Think of how knobs on an old walkman or typical mouse scroller can get yucky.) When it first hit the market, not many competitors had the (now ubiquitous) bright color screen either. Everything was simple enough that you really didn't need a manual to figure it out either.

The current counterparts are a lot better, but you have to think about the feature set it offered when it first came out. Yes there was a lot of hype and heavy marketing, so everybody knew about it. And now it turns out that iTunes is a detriment because of all the cruft. (I use Floola with my old model Nano. I'm sure RockBox or similar playlist software/firmware will work just as well too.) If I was in the market now, the iPod would be a lot further back on the list because everybody else improved to compete with it. The convenience outweighed the bang-for-the-buck, but now it's likely no longer the case.

Re:The tech wasn't the issue though

[jafac]

There is a LOT to *HATE* about the iPod. But I loved the nano, in particular, because the click-wheel made it so damn easy to navigate a "large" library of tunes. For the very limited UI of that postage-stamp of an lcd screen, this was the best compromise. I even tried an iPod touch, and hated it. It was much more difficult to use. (and of course, 8 GB? Really? who the f*ck is so limited in their musical taste that 8 GB isn't going to bore the crap out of them in the space of a few days? The MP3 format is all about convenience. The 8 GB space limit, when the technology could easily been 32, or 64, was, if nothing else, ANTI-convenience.)

But only the iPod had that click-wheel.

The fact that you're pretty much almost forced to use iTunes to load your iPod (an the fact that the new iPods all pretty much suck ass) - are the primary reasons why I have not replaced my old, busted nano (and sold my iPod touch).

I tried a zune, and two different (VERY different) samsung players. They were all just a fucking pain in the ass to navigate.

Re:The tech wasn't the issue though

[quacking duck]

You are arguing different points in time. You originally replied to someone else, saying it was ONLY good tech that made the iPod (the *original* iPod) take off. I'm saying the cool factor played a big part in early adoption, when it *wasn't* ubiquitous and certainly wasn't cheap ($400, which was over $500 CAD back then). THAT is where my point about the touch of exclusivity came from. Today, of course, this isn't true anymore.

Do you even remember what early iPod's competitors were like? Gen 1 was a brick, sure, but it was a small and sleek brick compared to the others. And you even used the word "slick" to describe the interface. Slick is something you can show off to your friends, and show up the bad interfaces everything else had. The slick is "cool." Good, well designed tech can be cool and fashionable!

And don't "hint" me--I belong to this "majority," though you're in no position to say it's "overwhelming." I certainly don't care what others thought or think of me carrying around an iPod or iPhone, nor do I bash those who choose to buy other products. But I'm human enough to show it off a little bit because it is cool (though not as much as it used to be), and I'm not so blind as to think fashion/cool/image (no, these aren't dirty words) aren't a significant influence in a large number of Apple purchases.

Re:The tech wasn't the issue though

[theArtificial]

What a tired, stupid, cliche. What the iPod did was make carrying our music around easier and remove lots of moving parts that are no longer necessary.

It may come as a shock but Apple didn't invent the MP3 player with the iPod. Since you're passionate in dismissing others claims I'll remind you that to this day you do not own music, and the reference to it being yours (if you did indeed "purchase" it) is, to use one of your words: stupid. The exception being if you recorded it yourself, which wouldn't surprise me.

You are claiming the headphone cord hanging in front is some sort of statement? That would make virtually all headphones a statement. I personally use ones that go behind the head for running, but sitting on a commuter train, I don't really care what color the headphone cord is or where it dangles.

Have you actually seen any advertisements over the years? Why are the white earbuds and player so prominently displayed in the iPod advertisements? In fact why are there colored cases sold by 3rd parties? Not to mention the price (apple products are typically prominent) don't choose Apple because it's cheap.

Only the most vapid teenager cares about white headphones. Foremost, the iPod is successful because it's a good product.

Apparently more than just vapid teenagers as white earbuds/cables/accessories started to appear by other companies. It's like claiming Windows is successful because it's a good product.

Lastly, how impressive is it to "proclaim ownership" of a mass marketed and relatively cheap product? It's not a badge of honor to own a $120 device that millions of other people also own.

Quite right but you're obviously not who they're targeting. Plenty of people are happy to use things as status symbols, look at how certain brands of clothes (Adidas, Nike, Fubu etc.) have their logos in very visible areas. Why do cars have their logos in prominent positions? Perhaps it's a badge of honor to some vapid teenager who just got a job...

Technology was the driving factor for its success, especially in the early Mac + iTunes only ecosystem. Once it opened up to PC and changed to USB, it really took off.

You mean the technology they didn't invent? I had one of these and it was awesome it didn't skip, but the minidisk was superior in storage (notice the software ran only Windows 98). Later I also had another portable model which used CDRs. Apple didn't invent the portable music player, or MP3s, or making them available (Napster and friends were amazingly popular before iPod). Your statement about it "opening up on PC" is amusing not to mention backwards if portable players were available many years before on another massively popular platform. Interesting you're not including Apple computers as PCs, you know Personal Computers... it looks like marketing works.

Re:The tech wasn't the issue though

[dargaud]

As opposed to the competition which never managed to produce anything with less than 7 buttons.

I WANT to be able to use my music player without fishing it out of my pocket: changing volume and skipping songs at the very least. For this you need physical buttons, none of this touch crap.

Re:The tech wasn't the issue though

[stewbacca]

Fair enough (about different points in time). I've been using Apple stuff since 1987, so yeah, it all runs together after a while. I had a 2nd gen iPod, which was still expensive and somewhat exclusive at that time. I didn't buy it for its exclusivity, I bought it for its tech. Being a home OSX user with plentiful firewire ports and a fresh copy of the newly invented iTunes, my choice was pretty easy. THIS, I contend, is exactly the tech that made the iPod take off, especially after the technical changes were made for it to work with Windows PCs.

My contention is that people still argue exclusivity with $120 iPod nanos and touches and hell, even iPhones. Who DOESN'T have a $200-ish smart phone of some sort these days? How are white headphones exclusive when mostly all headphones are now white?

I use the term "slick" not to impress friends, but because it impressed ME. And the slickness of the UI is based on the technology PLUS the design. It wasn't all pretty shiny stuff that didn't work well--it was good software design as well (which is tech).

I didn't mean to "hint" you in particular--just this entire idea that people who don't like Apple users think we are trying to impress them or some nonsense like that. It says more about the person thinking that than the person using the Apple product. When I pop open my Macbook at the coffee shop it's because I want to check out the news while drinking a coffee. I'm not trying to impress the other 10 Macbook users around more, nor am I even trying to impress the Dell/HP/Whatever users around me. My computer cost roughly $1000, and anybody is free to purchase one, which is hardly impressive.

Re:The tech wasn't the issue though

[StuffMaster]

It was slimmer and lighter than the competition which meant it was easier to carry around with you.

Perhaps for HD models... I bought one of the first MP3 players, and without a hard drive it was certainly smaller than the first iPod. The HD had vastly more capacity, of course.

Yawn

[sootman]

Not really much of a story. "Predicting the future is hard. Film at 11." Even smart people are wrong all the time.

People Suck at Prediction

[Saerko]

Take a gander at this paper on the subject. Most people have about a 50/50 shot or worse at accurately predicting binary events. The worse part is interesting--that some people are just consistently terrible.

The truth is, you have to have incredibly detailed knowledge about a subject and a philosophic outlook on it that's appropriate. Technological change is especially hairy because there's a lot exciting technology that ends up getting killed by socio-cultural or political reasons. For instance, in the late 70's it was unthinkable that we wouldn't have a moonbase by 2010, but no one was looking at a little defense project called ARPANET. Ooops.

I'm no expert on this shit, so I can't speculate about what's going to be hot in the future. I thought the iPad was stupid, and I think Dark Matter is a bunch of bullshit. I also think Kurzweil is awfully optimistic about the Singularity. That said, I'm aware of my own track record,on prognostication, and unless it's about healthcare IT (my field), I'm ready to be as surprised as IBM was when they ended up having a worldwide market for more than 5 computers.

Re:People Suck at Prediction

[Anonymous Coward]

The iPad is stupid. I have yet to see someone doing something productive with it. It's for games period, maybe some light browsing. One of the big reasons people like it/need it is because "all the cool people have it". But in my opinion the most important subconscious reason people continue using it is the tactile use of the their fingers. Think about it, squeezing, stroking, and patting their way to happiness. I actually am serious about this though, there's something going on there.

Dark Matter = Global Warming pseudo science = pseudo science. I don't care what it's called but the fact remains these "scientists" don't have a clue. I don't care if you wrote 100 papers and have 100 published articles. Admit it, you don't know. Just because you came up with a conjecture, doesn't make it a hypothesis, much less a theory, and absolutely is not FACT. Yet I and the rest of the world who acknowledge we don't know everything have to listen to their bullshit as if it is fact and the only possible answer. Whatever. Just watch any science show/read any science journal from 5-10-15+... years ago and see how their stories have changed.

They will say, "well that's the scientific method, we propose ideas and test using mathematics and real world experiments to verify. We modify our ideas based on the evidence gained from the math/experiment." No that's not what's happening and it appears to be getting worse every year. What we have now is a few elitist assholes running around(confirmed), fabricating data(confirmed), destroying the original data(confirmed), and telling the rest of the world, "YOU'D BETTER BELIEVE IT... OR ELSE!!!" in almost every field of study on earth. I for one am tired of it. I love hearing new ideas. Some appear to be better than others but like technology and like the examples given in the article, we are and will be always very surprised by what actually works, by what is actually the truth, by what nature and the universe really hold ahead of us.

Re:People Suck at Prediction

[radtea]

Thanks for posting this... the Tetlock book referenced in the paper sounds fascinating, and the work in the paper itself is worthwhile. It would be very interesting to see the same work repeated over several years, to see how the ideology effect works out in years when things happen to work out "conservatively". Also, it would be interesting to see an "influencer" variable added to the analysis. People like Nancy Pelosi and Hank Paulson and even Paul Krugman are more likely to influence the outcome of events than some other prognosticators, which may to some extent make their predictions self-fulfilling. This is a little different than the "advisor" variable that is accounted for.

Oh, and I have no idea what you mean by "Dark Matter is a bunch of bullshit"... Do you mean the anomalous rotation curves of galaxies and the general apparent excess of gravitational attraction on larger scales that is observed is due to bovine feces? Observations have to be caused by something, either observer (or analytical) error, or an underlying reductive cause. Given the Law of Universal Gravitation, positing excess mass that is not opitically observable is a clearly sensible move, which is what the various Dark Matter hypothesis are. There are other potentially viable hypotheses, but I suspect if any of them were favoured by phhysicists people who know nothing about the subject would be declaring them "bullshit" in favour of the "obvious" hypothesis of optically undetectable particles...

My dis am bigger than yours

[tepples]

Saying "ATM machines" is like saying "FTP protocol."

Repeating the noun is good for disambiguating them from Asynchronous Transfer Mode or [expletive] The Police.

I am curious

[NEDHead]

Where do they find so many little people to man all those ATMs?

Does not apply to FTL

[starglider29a]

Sadly, I have heard people use the argument that "the experts miss calls like this one" to point to how we can achieve Faster-Than-Light once we start to "think outside the box".

None of these missed calls, esp. satellite radio, defy the known physics of their day. Those FTL-friendly people see FTL as a mere 'technological breakthrough."

Re:Does not apply to FTL

[Conspiracy_Of_Doves]

Didn't we used to think it was impossible to tap into a quantum encrypted message without either the sender or receiver detecting it?

Re:Does not apply to FTL

[starglider29a]

Not the same thing. Analogously, that is like saying "I can mail this letter, and if the envelope is opened, I can tell." vs. "I can mail this letter and get it to Mars in 23 minutes (this month)."

The first defies someone's opinion on a theory. The latter defies physics. You can fool the theory, but you can't fool the physics.

BTW, you just did what I initially complained about. "technological breakthrough."

Re:Does not apply to FTL

[MozeeToby]

FTL or causality. Pick one and only one.

FTL combined with time dilation, which we know empirically to be accurate, means that a round trip message can arrive back at it's start before the message is sent. And do note that this holds true even if your method of FTL involves 'shortcuts', as long as a message effectively travels faster than light, ships at relativistic velocities can be be used to send the message back before it left.

Why this is the case is a bit hard to explain in a slashdot comment, I'd recommend looking here or searching google for "why does FTL imply time travel" or something similar.

Re:Does not apply to FTL

[Conspiracy_Of_Doves]

Technically it only defies what we know of physics.

Printer and Xerox machines

[vlm]

For my entire life I've been told the paperless office is arriving and soon people will relegate printers, faxes, and xerox machines to wherever telegraph sounders and stock market tickers have been landfilled. For at least thirty years I've heard how in just short five years, people won't even remember the concept of a "printer" or a "photocopier".

The only casualty I've seen is the FAX. With a couple exceptions, for example, a couple years ago my health insurance required something FAXed to them... I'm like, who even owns a FAX anymore? Kind of like email, nothing ever arrives anymore but endless spam. I ended up having to snail mail it.

Re:Printer and Xerox machines

[SJHillman]

Speaking as a tech at a medical equipment retailer, fax is still huge in the medical industry. Of course, my company is pretty close to the edge of tech. One of our selling points is being a tech friendly company, so our incoming faxes are converted to email and sent to people's inboxes as a PDF rather than being printed. Likewise, outgoing faxes are sent straight from the computer through our fax server. Even with these implementations, we still go through thousands of pages per day of paper faxes that can't be digitized for one reason or another, simply because doc offices, therapists and insurance companies all insist on fax.

Re:Printer and Xerox machines

[teh kurisu]

In my office we got rid of the fax machine a long time ago, as it was more trouble than it was worth, and replaced it with a virtual fax number which forwards faxes on as emails. We get maybe one fax every three months.

We have one product where we're required to get proof of ownership of mobile phones, and most customers scan a bill and then email it to us. We had one customer, however, who tried to use our virtual fax number, and for some reason it simply wouldn't work. He phoned up, rather irate, and I mentioned that it was probably an incompatibility between his physical fax machine and our virtual one.

He was surprised that we didn't have a real fax machine, and said, "You're the only company I've ever dealt with that doesn't have a fax machine".

In an effort to resolve the problem, I asked him if he could scan the bill and email it to us. He replied, "We don't have a scanner".

I had to bite my lip to stop myself from blurting out, "You're the only company I've ever dealt with that doesn't have a scanner".

In a sense ...

[anerki]

"And FCC engineer T.A.M. Craven was absolutely certain back in 1961 that there was 'no chance communications space satellites will be used to provide better telephone, telegraph, television, or radio service inside the United States."

And in a sense, he's completely right. It hasn't really improved :)

Re:In a sense ...

[biometrizilla]

You must not have SiriusXM radio. Same channels coast-to-coast, most with no commercials. Infinitely better than static-filled AM and short-range FM local channels. SiriusXM radio owner, not investor.

Re:In a sense ...

[jedidiah]

SiriusXM?

Had it. Was not impresssed with it. Ditched it.

A lot of those stations make Clear Channel look good. Also, oppressive sameness from coast to coast is not really a good selling point. Although being able to get a radio signal in the middle of Montana is handy. Although it's only so relevant most of the time.

It's still generally true that the fastest and most robust comms are those that only ever travel over wires.

Forms of wireless are good at thwarting the local land line monopoly where the tech is robust enough (which it usually isn't).

Re:In a sense ...

[ceiling9]

I admittedly have only tried it in rental cars - satellite radio is great for talk radio, so you can listen to the same program while driving cross country, but the music quality is pretty bad, the "sizzle" and reduction in dynamic range of the overly compressed audio is kind of grating.

Social Networking

[Anonymous Coward]

When I first heard about Facebook/Myspace/etc... a decade ago I thought they'd last about 15 minutes. Who in their right mind would publish the most intimate details of their private lives on the internet for the world to read?

Re:Social Networking

[jones_supa]

Or show a more or less public friend list, in full names.

Fuck You!

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm over 40, and I have no trouble operating an ATM. In fact my long delays usually come from teens and twenty-somethings who always run their account down to zero, and have to resort to multiple balance checks before they can withdraw a paltry $20, or the occasional asshole who has to balance his checkbook before he moves out of the way so I can access a drive through ATM.

The unit of Measurement is the failure

[Sulfate]

It you want to say TV isn't a failure, then cut off CAFR funding for it. Cut off Obama's giveaway to the networks. Let's have the FCC panel made up of engineers who the public votes in, not the one's the POTUS appoints. Today you have to get your daily dose of propaganda BS along with your local news (which could possibly warn if a tsunami is on the way) what a nasty trade off, listening to how jobs are so good, and the economy is recovering, and OBL shot and dumped at sea, just to try to know if the rain might have nuclear fallout or if some earthquake has a 100' wave headed your way. Let us not forget the switch to DTV which sucks more money people don't have. Plus when it's really windy from the haarp technology mucking with the weather, the DTV packets break up. Where in analog, it was just snow and noise, now it's BSOD (black screen of death)

Ya want to talk about the telcos? Start with NSA fios splitters, move on to wiretaps, spying, and all the rest of the crap. You couldn't GIVE me a mobile phone.

You want to talk about the internet and law? Miserable failure. *.AA , DMCA, streaming stations, copyright/patent trolls, SEO blackhats, the intelligence community spying, Chamber of Commerce, facebook. You can't look me in the eye and tell me that's not a failure for the US Constitution which is now intermittent.

When the monetary system financial terrorism come to fruition and mark to market is realized and the funding sources are added up, and the financial terrorists are prosecuted, these technologies will be a failure. It's just that it isn't measured this way currently because of the corruption and payola.

Watch: sock puppet / trolls will vote this message off the radar they don't like the truth.

Re:The unit of Measurement is the failure

[Dan Dankleton]

FWIW, I'd vote it as somewhat off-topic. That said...

You do know that television and other technology are reasonably successful in some countries where CAFR funding doesn't apply, don't you? That the FCC don't regulate in the vast majority of the world? That it's not wind that causes TV signals to flutter? I could go on...

Re:The unit of Measurement is the failure

[Anonymous Coward]

THEY'RE WATCHING YOU!

Tamagotchi

[Daetrin]

Did Tamagotchi fail? Or did it just *ahem* evolve into Pokemon and Nintendogs?

And what kind of an example is Tamagotchi in the first place? Tamagotchi wasn't a tech, it was just a particular application of an existing tech that had been around a long time, in fact by that point it was practically retro. All it did was make the little hand-held LCD games that had gone out of vogue around the release of the GameBoy briefly popular again by coming up with a novel new style of game.

Re:Tamagotchi

[PPH]

Did Tamagotchi fail?

A technology that demands the constant attention of the user or it will misbehave and finally die? That's the basis of Windows.

Ducking and running....

Re:Tamagotchi

[Anonymous Coward]

Did Tamagotchi fail? Or did it just *ahem* evolve into Pokemon and Nintendogs?

Both Pokemon and Tamagotchi were first released in 1996.

Re:Tamagotchi

[vlm]

A technology that demands the constant attention of the user or it will misbehave and finally die? That's the basis of

Farmville?

That was the first thing I thought of when "tamagotchi" came up. From observation. pretty much the same people who were addicted to the tama are now addicted to farmville. Also the same people addicted to TV and facebook. Its a personality hack more than a technological hack.

Re:Tamagotchi

[Anonymous Coward]

Seeing as there are 5 Tamagotchis between the 5 and 6 year olds in my house, I think they have lasted quite a bit.

Re:Tamagotchi

[Anonymous Coward]

GP is probably referring to the Pokemon Pikachu which was a Pokemon themed Tamagotchi clone.

Re:Tamagotchi

[capo_dei_capi]

Neither is the iPod, nor Android...

Re:Tamagotchi

[DragonWriter]

A technology that demands the constant attention of the user or it will misbehave and finally die? That's the basis of

...children?

Re:Tamagotchi

[Nyder]

Did Tamagotchi fail? Or did it just *ahem* evolve into Pokemon and Nintendogs?

And what kind of an example is Tamagotchi in the first place? Tamagotchi wasn't a tech, it was just a particular application of an existing tech that had been around a long time, in fact by that point it was practically retro. All it did was make the little hand-held LCD games that had gone out of vogue around the release of the GameBoy briefly popular again by coming up with a novel new style of game.

No, it didn't fail. It's still sells stuff, has something called Tamatown and other crap. google shows all this.

Just another person, because he doesn't see them anymore, assumes they are no longer around. Though if he had bothered to google that name, he'd see they are still around. But don't let facts get in the way of your article.

Re:Tamagotchi

[moogaloonie]

I could never tell the difference between my computer's CLI and a text adventure anyway. Maybe I don't want a useful, productive OS... why not make a game of keeping it working? Think of the downloadable content you could offer!

Print version

[Animats]

Link to single-page printable version without ads.

These "Top N" lists, one ad-laden page per item, are mostly ad and link farms. If you have to mention them in a Slashdot article, link to the print page. If there's no page, don't link at all.

One more missing

[VincenzoRomano]

Slashdot is doomed to the scrap heap.

Well...

[MightyMartian]

First of all, Metcalfe is a self-important asshole. He's up there with Dvorak in the most inept prognosticators category. The Internet, as we call it, had a couple of decades under its belt by the time Metcalfe made his rude noises about it. The Internet existed for a long time, it was the introduction of the ISP that was ultimately needed to get it to a wider audience. I'll wager you could find without too much difficulty a half dozen futurists and SciFi authors who foresaw a global information network.

As to satellites, maybe I'm looking at this from the point of view of a half century of satellite technology, but it strikes me as being pretty frigging obvious that once you can get a transmitter/repeater into orbit, you're in the game.

I don't view guys like Metcalfe and Dvorak as futurists, I just view them as contrarians who attack any new(ish) tech in the hopes that maybe they'll be right and look really smart. Ultimately, of course, they just look like contrarian morons.

1st of Clarke's Laws

[Anonymous Coward]

Reminds me of the first of Clarke's three laws:

"When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong."

Be skeptical, but never be too quick to dismiss an idea. When I first saw Mosiac back in college, I had a buddy (a Microsofty at the time) that thought I was being preposterous with my assertion that TV Guide and other information would soon be available on the Internet. "Who is going to spend time putting all that information into a computer?!?" he said. More recently, I thought Twitter would stop being interesting within two years of its launch. Turns out we have more free time than I imagined.

Re:1st of Clarke's Laws

[ceiling9]

I wonder if you could flip that around to say something like:

"When a young inexperienced scientist states that something far-fetched is possible, he is probably wrong. When he states that something is impossible, he is almost certainly right."

Re:1st of Clarke's Laws

[maxwell demon]

But what about middle-aged scientists with some experience? Will they start being right when saying things are possible before or after they start being wrong when saying things are impossible?

RS232

[VincenzoRomano]

RS232 communication will disappear soon (from January 1996, the birth of commercial USB).
And infact all major professional networking devices have a ... a ... RS232 console, packaged in some way!

DeForest was a Patent Troll

[Anonymous Coward]

He couldnt even explain his own patent in court.
Edwin Armstrong invented the invention that DeForest was best known for
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwin_Howard_Armstrong

Re:Cathode Ray Tube: Alive and Well

[Dr_Barnowl]

What annoys me more is the equally sick and dying 4:3 flatpanel industry.

The ridiculous economies of scale involved in producing LCD TV panels mean that a decent computer panel is harder to come by. As long as you don't mind a low vertical resolution of just over 1000 pixels, you're in luck, because they are cheaper than ever. But if you actually want progress, you need to splash some serious cash.

I mean, FFS, I was using a 1600x1200 panel when my laptop had Windows NT on it. I'm searching through the HP website looking at laptops. I can't seem to find a screen with a vertical resolution above 768 pixels on anything less than £1000 ; and it's a bloody struggle to even tell what the resolution on most of the higher end models is. "HD"? Well, some people claimed 768 was HD, so forgive me for not trusting that that means anything... grrrr.

J K Galbraith had interesting comment

[cinnamon colbert]

As some of you young'uns may not know, during WWII, Galbraith, as a very young economists, was given control over the OPA - the federal office that set mandatory prices and wages during the war.
After the war, JKG led the group that evaluated how bombing of germany affected the Nazis ability to carry out the war; famously, the group found that bombing had almost no effect.
somewhere galbraith, a very amusing writer, has a short piece call "advice to a young beauraucrate (sic)". One of his rules is to never trust experts - no matter how firmly they state their opinions, they can always be wrong.

Movie Projectors?

[stewbacca]

I for one am greatly disappointed that movie theater projection quality is no better now than it was in the 1970s (for the most part).

Re:Movie Projectors?

[Ksevio]

Digital is slowly creeping in, but in general film is a cheap high resolution solution.

Cameras gave up film because digital is cheaper and more convenient - and the resolution isn't as necessary since the photos aren't being stretched to the size of a building.

Projectors are expensive, so a theater can keep the same machine for 40 years. After the initial cost of upgrading to new equipment, digital only cuts down on shipping a bit (saves a couple hundred per film) and the guy projecting it presses play instead of threading up a projector every couple hours - all for no gain in picture quality until recently.

Re:Movie Projectors?

[stewbacca]

It's not the film format I have a problem with, it's the quality of the projection. My film SLR camera takes every bit as good of pictures (probably better, actually) than my DSLR, so it's not the film. And even brand new theaters suffer from projection quality (uneven lighting, warped images, grainy), so it's not like they are sitting on 40 year old projectors.

I guess I'm just a little surprised that most people think that current movie theater projection is any good, or even good enough. To me, it's not good enough, which is why we usually spend the extra $$$ and go to IMAX.

The GSM phone

[Anonymous Coward]

I am still embarrassed about it. Yes, I was sure GSM would never fly. All those base stations - too expensive - bad idea, I said.

Re:The GSM phone

[alobar72]

Actually I though the same when 3G came up. Those days I thought the license fee alone that the carriers had to pay could as well be spend to build up a nation wide wifi mesh instead...

How quickly we forget

[Anonymous Coward]

What the iPod did was make MP3 players cool, it made them a fashion accessory.

No, it made them easy and practical for ordinary people.

Before the iPod, the only people who bothered with MP3 players were geeks who already had all their CDs ripped to MP3s (or had pirated them from Napster.) Ordinary people were perfectly happy with their existing portable CD players and CD collections, because pre-iPod MP3 players were a world of hurt.

Most MP3 players before the iPod had barely any more capacity than portable CD players. Those that did have large capacities had only USB 1.1 connectivity, so they were way too slow to load up. Those large capacity players were also too huge to fit in a normal jeans pocket. Most didn't have screens that could show song names or playlists (only six-segment numeric displays.) Most didn't have playlist capability at all. All of them had frustratingly slow controls with arrow-key navigation. All of them required clunky software to load up. (Yes, worse than iTunes. Much worse. You'd have one program to rip music, and a seperate program to load it onto the player. Neither was aware of the other.)

Apple succeeded because it got the MP3 player right. Large capacity in a small form factor with fast FireWire (later USB2) loading. Quick and easy navigation with a big screen and scroll wheel. Integrated ripping and loading software on the PC side.

This is the sort of thing geeks don't notice and don't remember. If it's not a numeric specification, they forget it exists.

Re:How quickly we forget

[HeckRuler]

Dude, the first iPod had all those problems too. The only place it shined was capacity. It slapped a harddrive in there rather then flash, which traded portability for. The first iPod SUCKED. Who had firewire? But it was fashionable. A lot of the early mp3 players also sucked in various ways. And you couldn't fit much music on 32Mb.

Apple didn't get it anywhere near right until the 3rd generation came out.

Re:How quickly we forget

[Anonymous Coward]

The only place it shined was capacity.

And fast up loads of music through firewire.
And a good user interface that used the scrolling wheel for fast navigation.
And iTunes that would rip and upload you music all in one application.

It slapped a harddrive in there rather then flash, which traded portability for.

Flash players at the time could only around 10 or so songs and they were still about the same size as the original iPod. The original iPod was the size of a deck of playing card. There was no portability trade off what so ever.

The first iPod SUCKED.

Only in your head.

Who had firewire?

Every one that owned a modern mac when the iPod came out.

But it was fashionable. A lot of the early mp3 players also sucked in various ways. And you couldn't fit much music on 32Mb.
Apple didn't get it anywhere near right until the 3rd generation came out.

That's why people were trying to hack the iPod to work with Windows because it sucked.

Re:How quickly we forget

[RatBastard]

Who had Firewire? Mac users. iTunes didn't even run on Windows when the iPod came out. Apple didn't even think about Windows users until USB 2 was the norm on PCs.

Re:iPod - remember CompUSA

[cinnamon colbert]

the idea that a 5gb mp3 player was at all unusual at the *time the ipod was launched* is BS. There were lots of players. Focusing on hardware you totally miss the whole jobs shtick: (1) make it look nice; from the time the 2st cave man or cave woman put red dye on their hair, people have been willing to pay a premium for "luxury" whatever that happens to be at the time; (2) create an app that does something - in this case, easy to do music; prior to the ipod, it was hard (in the sense of the proverbial slashdot grandmother) to put mp3s on your player - with itunes, it was click and play.
If you look at apple, the term gilded cage really applies; jobs understands the number one rule of sales people are lazy, if you cater to their lazyness you will do well.

The teller doesn't have to guess if you are good

[sirwired]

Tellers (or phone customer service reps) don't have to guess if you are a profitable customer; the computer tells them this outright. Many years ago, I was reading about a shift at a FirstUSA (now Chase) call center, and every rep had a "traffic light" appear when the customer's file came up. That light would tell them if it was a "good" customer (and therefore deserving of obsequious (and time consuming) service, fee waivers, etc.) or a "poor" customer (and deserving the bare minimum of efficient service, no waivers for anything, etc.)

Naturally, "good" was either high-volume pay-every-month (and therefore a source of fee income), or maxed out (and paying on time.) "Bad" was small-volume, paid every month (and therefore expensive due to account overhead) or an erratic payer (and therefore likely stuck no matter how ruthless the bank was with fees.)

They miss Dionysius Lardner

[Anonymous Coward]

He said: "Men might as well project a voyage to the Moon as attempt to employ steam navigation against the stormy North Atlantic Ocean."

Re:They miss Dionysius Lardner

[maxwell demon]

Well, he was right: The voyage to the Moon was as successful as employing steam navigation against the stormy North Atlantic Ocean. :-)

Its about context.

[miffo.swe]

The mistake people do is judging things out of their own personally perceived context without taking into account that the context itself can change thanks to the product. The internet itself changed our way of communicating in a way that was very hard to predict.

You cant really look at all products with only today's timeslice of our society in mind and expect to be right on the money.

The iPod won because the competition was crap

[sirwired]

Once iTunes was available for Windows, it was all over. (Prior to this, MP3 players were still a competitive market.) When I replaced my first MP3 player (a discman-shaped Nomad), I first replaced it with another Nomad. Nasty hardware problem, so back to the store it went. Next attempt was an iRiver unit. Absolutely fantastic hardware, a remote with a display, great battery life; absolutely crap software. No ripping program, no organizing software, strange filename limitations, limited tagging support, no progressive-speed scrolling. At that point, I just gave up and bought an iPod and haven't looked back since.

Inventor of TV

[Anonymous Coward]

Philo Farnsworth invented Television. Lee Defoest invented the Audion tube, which enabled broadcasting.

Microwave RF transistors and ICs

[vlm]

And FCC engineer T.A.M. Craven was absolutely certain back in 1961 that there was 'no chance communications space satellites will be used to provide better telephone, telegraph, television, or radio service inside the United States.'"

Given the atmospheric astrophysics reasons requiring the use of GHz microwave bands, and that era's "bear skins and baling wire" solid state microwave RF technology level, he was correct. My grandfathers EE friends would have fallen out of their chairs if they could see the 2010 catalog and pricelist of a place like minicircuits.

Price of iPhone 4 + ETF vs. price of iPod touch

[tepples]

Phone is the "top" app (even if some people don't use that part of the device, it's still called a "phone").

And you're still charged for that part of the device even if you don't use it. Or is there a "music player" running OHA Android (which comes with Android Market), as opposed to the AOSP Android on the Archos 43 Internet Tablet (which comes with the far smaller selection of AppsLib)?

extra 50 cent cost of the cell network chip

Then why does an iPhone 4 + ETF still cost hundreds of USD more than an iPod touch 4?

Re:Price of iPhone 4 + ETF vs. price of iPod touch

[Anonymous Coward]

Because the IPhone gets the locked in contract money for the carrier where people actually have to pay full prices for the IPod Touch.
Its easier to justify the high price when the consumer only pays half of it.

Re:Price of iPhone 4 + ETF vs. price of iPod touch

[tepples]

why does an iPhone 4 + ETF still cost hundreds of USD more than an iPod touch 4?

Because the IPhone gets the locked in contract money for the carrier

That's why I said "+ ETF". If the difference between an iPod touch and an iPhone were really a dollar's worth of hardware, as Cajun Hell seems to think, the iPhone wouldn't need to be subsidized by the carrier, and it'd be available on pay-as-you-go terms.

Re:Price of iPhone 4 + ETF vs. price of iPod touch

[Cajun Hell]

If the difference between an iPod touch and an iPhone were really a dollar's worth of hardware, as Cajun Hell seems to think

And just to be clear, yes, I do think that. While I'm exaggerating when I say it's a dollar, I think it's a lot closer to a dollar than the hundreds of dollars in price difference. Those hundreds of dollars of extra hardware just aren't there in the iPhone.

the iPhone wouldn't need to be subsidized by the carrier

Maybe Apple charges a lot for it. Apple product pricing tends to be more oriented toward what people ware willing to pay, rather than whiteboxer's cost+markup where competitors erode markup. Whatever I think of their products, I must admit they've maneuvered brilliantly.

...and Android

[tepples]

There's really no sense using anything else than Windows [or one of the locked set-top consoles] for gaming

Amazon Appstore, Android Market, AppsLib, and SlideME Application Manager all sell games for what amounts to a heavily customized distribution of Linux.

Re:Cathode Ray Tube: Alive and Well vs. Plasma

[retroworks]

Yes, but according to Digitimes, the overall volume of display units has grown staggeringly, so 15% of today's market not quite as small in relation to 12 years ago as it looks - there are still 3-4 furnaces making brand new CRTs. The other hidden thing is that the continued reuse of the CRTs replaced by LCDs is not in the DailyTech article. Entire factories are running, some using 5,000 used CRTs per day to make new ones. I'm not betting on new CRTs being made, I was just making the point that one man's obsolete is another man's high tech, and the 3 billion people who earn roughly 3 thousand dollars per year (3B3K) tends to get ignored and can sustain a technology far longer than you'd expect standing inside a Best Buy. I'm not saying they will outlive the LED, but the CRT has definitely outlived the Plasma, right?

Re:Cathode Ray Tube: Alive and Well

[WuphonsReach]

Lenovo defines HD as 1366 x 768, HD+ as 1600 x 900, and FHD as 1920 x 1080. (Available on the T420/T520.)

And frankly, 1920x1080 on a 15" LCD is pretty small, I'd go with the 1600x900 instead for the slightly larger pixel size.

Quit slandering Ken Olson!

[MagikSlinger]

Quit taking that quote out of context! The man was referring to home automation--computers running everything in the home. The idea of a computer in the home for normal people to use quite appealed to him, and in fact, used to promote the idea.

title

[westlake]

Inventor Lee DeForest, known as one of the 'fathers of the electronic age,' declared TV a commercial and financial impossibility, a sentiment that was shared by 20th Century Fox exec Darryl Zanuck

Quotes out of context are useless.

How to fund radio production was an open debate in the twenties.

There was no easy way for a commercial sponsor to estimate the return on his investment.

Television productions would have to fully staged and rehearsed - with sets, props, costumes and so on.

Your actors and production crews can't arrive in shirtsleeves for a single afternoon reading and an early evening performance.

No matter how punishing the schedule, you are going to need them for the better part of a week.

Which means that you won't get a commitment from the box office star and top-flight backstage talent if all you can offer is union scale.

Re:title

[moogaloonie]

"Inventor Lee DeForest, known as one of the 'fathers of the electronic age,' declared TV a commercial and financial impossibility, a sentiment that was shared by 20th Century Fox exec Darryl Zanuck" Is that an actual opinion or spin?

Bank hours

[Lead Butthead]

Why are banks open only from 10-3, the sort of hours they know everyone is at work? And why is it that at least one bank teller is on break or on lunch?

Because the banks sees their existence as dependent on businesses. Personal account holders (aka the "little people") should be grateful that they even acknowledge their existence. From their perspective, the "little people" are in no position to demand or expect anything but should be on their knee and thank the banks for taking their money through endless service charges.

it's called capitalism

[Anonymous Coward]

if you don't like it, then perhaps you need to move to chinna where you might find some more "comrades" in arms.

Compact Disc

[pr0fessor]

In the 80s I thought the cd would fail miserably and quickly be replaced by a more durable storage method. I guess I was wrong about the quickly part since they are still around.

Re:Cathode Ray Tube: Alive and Well

[retroworks]

Ok, maybe the correct quote is "I'm not dead yet". My point is not that they are going to be made forever, but they are still a multibillion dollar market and they outlived plasma screens and LCDs on your chart have declined faster than CRTs have. I guess the LED-LCDs may take them out finally. But CRTs being made today (still 50% of sales in India) last for 20 years, and may be around for a long time. Also note on your chart the stubborn little flat spot from 2008-2010... the dip starting on 2011 on is a prediction, and that same prediction was made for 2008-2010 in ISuppli back in 2007 (which showed LCDs going in the opposite direction). Every year they predict steep CRT declines, and every year they are surprised by the 3 billion people earning $3k per year. They'll go away eventually just because the OEMs want to stop making them and will stop retooling the CRT furnaces, but it's still a good candidate for this tremendously important /. survey. Kind of like the end of Monty Python's "Bring Out Your Dead" skit, it may take a bang on the head.

MP3 and high compression MPEG protocols

[TheHawke]

They were both predicted to fail in spectacular fashion due to the already entrenched CDs and VCR cassettes.

Erm, this was postulated by (respectively) RIAA and MPAA...

Both live and strive to this day, despite the industry's best (and worst) efforts.

Article states bad predictions for easy win

[eepok]

Article says the following products/concepts succeeded when they were predicted to fail.

1) iPod (Portable Digital Media Player)
2) Internet
3) Personal Computer
4) Television
5) Google (Minimalist Internet Interfacing, unobstructive advertising)
6) Android, iPhone (Smartphones)

Anyone who predicted the failure of the above was obviously WAY too far removed from the target audience to be worth his/her salt.

1) Portable Digital Media Player -- This was an obvious predictable survivor. The first realistic portable music device was the cassette player (Sony Walkman, notably). It was a hit and widely emulated. Then came the portable CD player (Sony Discman, notably). It was a hit and widely emulated. It was better than the cassette player because it offered higher-quality sound and greater convenience (if at the initial cost of "skipping" risk). Then came the MP3 player-- a device that stored CD-quality music on flash memory. It had no moving parts and great battery life. Apple then put forth the iPod (early iterations had moving parts) which was a fashion smash hit. Its staying power came from the need for the next step in portable music evolution and, surprisingly, because of its unforeseeable status as a fashion accessory.

2) The internet, even at its earliest incarnation, was a means of connecting people of similar minds and interests for communication. Advances in communication always survive and this advance combined the opportunity for well-thought letter-style communication at telephone speed. Furthermore, it became a marketplace for wares and a means of education. Yes, and adult entertainment. Its survival was a no-brainer.

3) Whoever said the PC wouldn't survive did not understand what a PC nor what digital computing was. It's the same as someone saying "books" would not survive because the person didn't understand that paper could transmit information beyond the death of a writer.

4) Television... jeez. People love entertainment. Jokes, stories, gossip, games, races, drama, fantasy -- all were hits on stage, in person, and in books. The person who said TV wouldn't last had no understanding of people.

5) Google survived initially because while everyone was annoying users with massive front-page bloat and forceful marketing/advertising, Google was simple. Google provided what the intelligent and focused internet user market wanted- a simple and efficient search engine. Word of their apparent search honest spread like wildfire and thus came the demise of the all-encompassing "web portal".

6) Smartphones survive for a few reasons: the popularity of social exhibitionism/voyeurism, new generation reliance on internet connectivity to provide solutions, and the wow-factor of touchscreens and pretty UIs. They will continue to survive so long as the touchscreen remains the best affordable visual interface... though I'd really prefer the return of buttons... they just work.

Google: finding things

[spaceyhackerlady]

Way back when, in my undergrad days, I earned a bit of extra money by working in the university library. One thing that was always made clear was that you had to put books and stuff back on the shelf in the right place, because if you put them in the wrong place it was unlikely anybody would ever find them again. You might as well throw them away.

The key is searching, finding things. I thought it was pretty obvious that anybody who could come up with a better way to find things on the internet would make a buttload of money. That better way, for the moment at least, is Google.

...laura

Re:Google: finding things

[olau]

Except that Google probably mostly was a success because they kept their page simple compared to Altavista, the previous darling that started out simple and turned into a big slow portal mess.

How about

[BenSchuarmer]

COBOL and MS Access?

Not just a fad cause it's been going on so long...

[WebManWalking]

... oops, not that kind of surfing.

Fire Alarm Boxes

[Y-Crate]

Telephone pole-mounted fire alarm boxes should be gone by now. Telephones should have killed them. Then cell phones. But they refuse to die off completely, and the fire departments of some cities fight to keep them.

They exist not simply because of nostalgia, but because they just work. Quite well, actually. The system in Boston has experienced uptime of over a century. Nothing has ever managed to shut it down. Even when the telephone systems fail, cell phone towers stop working and there is absolutely no other way to communicate, the boxes remain functional and the ultimate insurance policy. No matter what happens, or where you are at any given moment, you will be able to get help if you need it. All thanks to 19th century telegraph technology. If your city is considering getting rid of them to save a few bucks, you might want to consider asking them not to.

They're not just useful for fires. Many NYC boxes offer the user a choice between fire / police and medical options.

Truth happens!

[madhusudancs]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjSDAUykkzQ This is a must watch video for these kind of things I guess

Steve Ballmer

[6502_C64]

Never seen Steve Ballmer quoted so often in one article.

Solid-body electric guitar + vacuum tube amplifier

[Kaz Kylheku]

Nuff said.

Other "tech" not dying:

- can openers
- plastic bottles
- paper cone speakers with copper voice coils and ceramic magnets
- automobile tires
- internal combustion engine
- silicon semiconductors
- latex paint, acrylic lacquer
- hammers, nails, nuts, bolts
- silica-based glass for glassware and windows
- ceramic flush toilets with integrated tank
- electric baseboard heaters
- air compressors and related tools: ratchets, paint guns, grinders, ...
- ...

Re:Cathode Ray Tube: Alive and Well

[maxwell demon]

And frankly, 1920x1080 on a 15" LCD is pretty small, I'd go with the 1600x900 instead for the slightly larger pixel size.

For pixels the rule is: The smaller, the better. Ideally, you shouldn't see individual pixels at all.

Re:iPod - remember CompUSA

[Anonymous Coward]

the idea that a 5gb mp3 player was at all unusual at the *time the ipod was launched* is BS. There were lots of players. Focusing on hardware you totally miss the whole jobs shtick: (1) make it look nice; from the time the 2st cave man or cave woman put red dye on their hair, people have been willing to pay a premium for "luxury" whatever that happens to be at the time; (2) create an app that does something - in this case, easy to do music; prior to the ipod, it was hard (in the sense of the proverbial slashdot grandmother) to put mp3s on your player - with itunes, it was click and play.

You've got it backwards. Jobs' shtick is that most people (especially back then) didn't have much more than 5GB of music. Sure, the warez kids laughed at it, but Jobs had this crazy insight to target people who actually had money to buy things with.

It should be stupid quotes of Ballmer and Gates

[Relayman]

Four of the six predicted failures were based on quotes from Steve Ballmer and Bill Gates. Maybe the article should have been "Stupid Quotes from Ballmer and Gates."

Text messages

[proxima]

Text messages, limited to 140 characters because they literally fit into a header field of a cell phone packet, are a bit of a hack. Yet here we are, years later, still using the very same system (and paying up the nose for the privilege in many cases!). But you know that anyone with a cell phone can receive a text (though you might be costing them $0.05-$0.10), you still can't be sure about its alternatives. IM clients require an always-connected client, whether that client exists on the phone itself (battery draining to retain that IP connection) or a server (that's how IM+ works for the ipod/iphone/ipad), and tend to have "push" technologies which are inferior to the built-in text messaging system.

So we still have a system where you vote for things, send donations to charities, and communicate entire long IM-like conversations. The limit on characters proved so popular as to give us Twitter (of course, it helps that you can tweet as a text message). The legacy of the system is not just its stupid overcharging, but modifying online language to be even more concise (to put it generously) than it would have been otherwise. And I don't see it dying for years.

Re:Text messages

[Relayman]

The 140 character limit is for Twitter. The basic text message can be up to 160 characters.

Re:Cathode Ray Tube: Alive and Well

[Sean0michael]

I absolutely feel your pain. When purchasing a new laptop, I was coming from a 14.1" Thinkpad T43 with a resolution of 1400 x 1050 (it went higher, but you had to scroll). I wanted something better than 1366 x 768 resolution, but with every manufacturer I had to go to a 17.3" screen to get it. I ended up with a huge "laptop" just to get 1600 x 900. It is frustrating to lose so much vertical space to gain some horizontal that I really don't need anyway (few web pages actually use that wide screen space well). Some games will leverage it, but I'd have been much happier with a 4:3 ratio with better resolution.

Re:Cathode Ray Tube: Alive and Well

[Sean0michael]

While its nice to see Lenovo offering those higher resolutions, neither HD+ nor FHD is available for under 1000 quid. Considering he used have better than FHD before, it sure would be nice if new computers weren't a downgrade.

Bank hours

[KingAlanI]

Around here, many banks are open until 4 or 5, and the Chase branches are open until 6.
The in-a-grocery-store Citizens branches keep even longer hours.

ATMs? Sometimes I want/need something besides $20s. Direct deposit is a great way to cut down on the hassle of cashing/depositing checks though.

You can tell which branches were built before the ATM era by all the now-extra teller stations

P.S.
* Automated Teller Machine machine?

Interested parties

[evilviper]

In most of those cases, it's a bunch of marketing nonsense. Yeah, Microsoft people were poo-pooing the ipod and the internet. It wasn't a bad prediction, though, it was just marketing. If you can't cash in, try hard to undermind confidence and interest in your competitors products... right up until you have something competetive to sell, then it's the next big thing, and you're the visionary bringing it to market...

Besides, it's a short, worthless article. Try this one instead;

http://listverse.com/2007/10/28/top-30-failed-technology-predictions/

Re: Supermarket self-checkouts

[HeadlessNotAHorseman]

The other thing I dislike about the self-checkouts is that if you pay by credit card + signature, it requires a human to come and verify your signature, swipe their access card, enter their pin, then approve it. So I lose time trying to get their attention then waiting for them to do all that.

I also dislike the idea of doing the store's work for them and still paying the same amount. If they charged less for the self service checkout I would use it.

FAT/FAT32

[Anonymous Coward]

What about FAT(32) ? It's still common to find this format on many devices (GPS, digicams,...) even though it's now more than 20 years old !

IBM mainframe.

[ProgramErgoSum]

Period.